Project "Payback"

[coolwelder62]

Todd,Good luck at optima.Have fun,run hard,keep it on the black top,BE SAFE.OH,& don't scratch that black paint.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Scott.

[Greg from Aus]

Good luck Todd, I am sure with the level of execution you provide, things will go well.

Greg

[tones2SS]

Good to hear Todd! Congrats!:thumbsup: :cheers:
Have fun bud.

[Josh69]

Good Luck Todd! :lateral:

[89 RS]

Congrats Todd! That's awesome and I'm sure you will tear things up...in a good way.:unibrow: I can't wait for the coverage to come out after the event.

[Vegas69]

The list is really short for the Optima Challenge. I want to check the valves and timing but that's about it at this point.

My inspection and nut and bolt check is done. I found a bunch of bolts that needed a little torque. This car is alot like my motorcycles, lock washers and loctite. I can't believe it but my LF sway bar end link nut was missing! I know it wasn't when I scaled the car two weeks ago because I unhooked the arm from the swap bar and it was hanging with that nut. It must of fallen off the last time I drove the car. :willy: Wow, that would of been bad. DSE uses basically a jam nut on the top end link to arm, I replaced them with a nylon nut so they won't come loose again.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/10-22-10_2009.jpg
Tonight I tweaked the alignment. I made camber and toes changes and I'll leave it at that for now. :unibrow: Car feels good.

I also made a brake pad compound change out back. I bedded them in tonight and this is the first time I've had to dial rear brake out of the car. I took three turns out and the rears were still locking up first. The car is stopping KILLER! My brakes are finally damn good. :thumbsup: I'll be dialing rear brake out tomorrow and Sunday. I'm running a fast autocross Sunday at the speedway. I hope to get the car working very well for the optima challenge. I'm feeling pretty confident right now.

[nvr2fst]

Give her Hell Todd!!!!

Whats with you and Doug (at Delmar) losing nuts LOL. Somebody is stealing parts from your cars. Is there a preventive spray for this? :lol:

[tones2SS]

Good to hear.
Rip it up bud!:thumbsup:

[coolwelder62]

Car is lookin real good Todd.Wish I was coming to vegas to watch.Hope you run well.Please post up some photo's of you holding that winning cup sat. night.Hoping some one from Lateral-g/Po-touring bring's it:thumbsup: Scott

[89 RS]

Good thing you did a check on everything. Good to hear about your brakes, keep us posted man.

[nvr2fst]

So how many big blocks are running or are you one of the few, the proud, the.....
Seen your post over at team camaro on the big blocks reunite wars.

[Vegas69]

I'm pretty sure I'm the sole survivor. She's alot of maintenence but bad to the bone. I love it when I pop the hood and people go HOLY ****. Happened twice today. :thumbsup:

Well, all my cards are on the table for the Optima Challenge. I adjusted the valves hot and set the total timing yesterday. She's running great! I really wish I had 2-3 more events to tweak on the suspension and driver. I feel the car is close time wise to how I had it on the R888's.(Within a second) One major difference being the attention needed behind the wheel. I don't remember ever spinning the car out on the 888's except at El Toro. I spun the car out twice today. It's still a little loose out back but I'm out of time. The front cornering grip and the forward bite are excellent. :thumbsup: The rear side bite is a little off and I feel I can dial it in with some shock and sway bar changes over a few events. That being said, the car felt pretty damn good today and I was out running most of the folks I have in the past. As usual, it feels great in the twisties at 80-90 mph. This car was made to road race. Tons of power and great brakes. After all this time of tweaking this and that, I'm happy to say that my car races the best in street trim. Meaning, it's fastest on street tires where it rides very compliant on the street. It rides better or at least as good as our daily drivers and hauls the mail. :)

Best run, second fastest time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1uqoS8e5Ag

[Flash68]

That b!tch is moving well Todd.

[tones2SS]

Such a killer car. Congrats Todd. She's a grocery getter and a track warrior.:thumbsup: :cheers:

[skatinjay27]

damn that was a pretty wide auto-x course, also she looked real smooth through the slalom... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

Big news, after countless interviews, the Iceman has picked his 2 star pit crew members:

Crew Chief: None other than Douglas Renner. Many know him as Dr. Renner, Magazine Horror, Kiss ass of the century, anything for a bone, vulture...etc. :rofl: I'm confident that having the one and only panel gap spray inventor on my pit crew will knock off AT LEAST 2 seconds per lap. I'm working on getting the radios and head sets so he can coach me around the road course, play by play. :thumbsup:

Head Mechanic: Skatinjay27 "AJ" This kid is as sharp as a butter knife. He'll be the glue in the team. His main duties will be making sure the cooler if stocked full of beer for AFTER the event, making sure my visor and windshield are clean, and most importantly, making sure the crew chief isn't off kissing ass for a free t shirt while he's supposed to be helping me! :rofl:

I think we'll just refer to them as the "Dream Team".

[skatinjay27]

what I thought the extent of my duties would be limited to making sure the valve stem caps were at proper tq specs...:( im pretty sure i can take a overnight course for the windsheild and visor clean up but keeping doug around exceeds my limits. also i think we better have some pellegrino in the cooler for frisco dave:D

[soundqdoug]

Doesn't SpeedTech have the big block green car? I'm thinking about using my big block in mine...big decision

[Flash68]

Big news, after countless interviews, the Iceman has picked his 2 star pit crew members:

Crew Chief: None other than Douglas Renner. Many know him as Dr. Renner, Magazine Horror, Kiss ass of the century, anything for a bone, vulture...etc. :rofl: I'm confident that having the one and only panel gap spray inventor on my pit crew will knock off AT LEAST 2 seconds per lap. I'm working on getting the radios and head sets so he can coach me around the road course, play by play. :thumbsup:

Head Mechanic: Skatinjay27 "AJ" This kid is as sharp as a butter knife. He'll be the glue in the team. His main duties will be making sure the cooler if stocked full of beer for AFTER the event, making sure my visor and windshield are clean, and most importantly, making sure the crew chief isn't off kissing ass for a free t shirt while he's supposed to be helping me! :rofl:

I think we'll just refer to them as the "Dream Team".

Now how can you not win... I mean lose... with that support!?!!

also i think we better have some pellegrino in the cooler for frisco dave:D

Another low blow from you eh? :_paranoid I actually prefer tapwater thankyouverymuch. :unibrow:
Well, I did have some special beverages planned for Team Payback, but looks like I have to account for one less person! :D

[Vegas69]

I hope he proves us wrong head mechanic Whitesides. :lol:( I had to google Pellegrino) haha

[skatinjay27]

I actually prefer tapwater thankyouverymuch. :unibrow:
D
our tap is not very out here...;)

yeah todd its "all the rage" in the "new york" style pizzerias.:rolleyes:

[tones2SS]

Sounds awesome Todd.
With the "dream team" in your corner, you're sure to come out on top!:thumbsup:

[bonecrrusher]

Just watched that clip damn that is nice @ 1080p!!

Wicked as always! :hail:

[69x22]

Awesome clip Todd, thanks for the ride! Good luck

[ironworks]

Big news, after countless interviews, the Iceman has picked his 2 star pit crew members:

Crew Chief: None other than Douglas Renner. Many know him as Dr. Renner, Magazine Horror, Kiss ass of the century, anything for a bone, vulture...etc. :rofl: I'm confident that having the one and only panel gap spray inventor on my pit crew will knock off AT LEAST 2 seconds per lap. I'm working on getting the radios and head sets so he can coach me around the road course, play by play. :thumbsup:

Head Mechanic: Skatinjay27 "AJ" This kid is as sharp as a butter knife. He'll be the glue in the team. His main duties will be making sure the cooler if stocked full of beer for AFTER the event, making sure my visor and windshield are clean, and most importantly, making sure the crew chief isn't off kissing ass for a free t shirt while he's supposed to be helping me! :rofl:

I think we'll just refer to them as the "Dream Team".

Inventor I think not. You need to reevalute that statememt

[skatinjay27]

Inventor I think not. You need to reevalute that statememt
Yeah dougs just the pretty face on the bottle!:lol:
I could always tell you were a good business man rodger. Who needs someone like chip foose to help sell your product when you got the most interesting man in the world right here "he doesn't always drink beer but when he does..."

[Vegas69]

He lied about his credentials. I may have to think again about my crew chief decision. :rofl:

[Spiffav8]

He lied about his credentials. I may have to think again about my crew chief decision. :rofl:

It will be entertaining, that's for sure! :thumbsup:

[ironworks]

He lied about his credentials. I may have to think again about my crew chief decision. :rofl:

Last time I saw Renner he was not removing the bicep enhancement overspray his neck and he was beginning to look like Broc Lesner. Plus i think the back hair removal spray was some how spilled on his forehead, not much but i think might make him wear a hat in any group photos.

[GregWeld]

Todd -- Rumor has it that Renner is working undercover for Rupp.... You know those so cal boys....

Watch your gas tank if you see him using too much sugar in his coffee!

[Vegas69]

Last time I saw Renner he was not removing the bicep enhancement overspray his neck and he was beginning to look like Broc Lesner. Plus i think the back hair removal spray was some how spilled on his forehead, not much but i think might make him wear a hat in any group photos.

Nice!:rofl: :rofl:

[waynieZ]

Nice video Todd. The car looks like and sounds like its running great.

[Vegas69]

My car's ready for SEMA tomorrow. I had a visit from Luke Mau, Rich Bromelia, and Eric.(Owner) They stopped by to do some detailing and throw a coat of wax before they took it down to SEMA today. Luke really laid a nice paint job on the car and it's a really clean build. I wish we could've cruised them and tore up some asphalt. Nothing like two sinister black 69's. :thumbsup:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/SEMA10010.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/SEMA10008.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/SEMA10005.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/SEMA10001.jpg

[Flash68]

Nice twins. Was hoping you'd post some pics. I think Rich is never without a beer in his hand and a musclecar at his side since I met him. :lol:

[Ron in SoCal]

Two of my favorite cars and great pics Todd. We'll have to start a 'Black Camaro Club'...:yes:

See you guys Wednesday!

[Rybar]

Both cars look Killer. Good luck Todd :thumbsup:

[Stuart Adams]

Very nice.

[tones2SS]

Awesome pic of the twins. Both those cars look great!:thumbsup: :cheers:

[waynieZ]

Thats a pair to be a full house.... They look sweet. Enjoy SEMA guys.

[torino420]

that is one SICK pair of Camaro's :thumbsup:

[Flash68]

Todd, thanks for the hospitality this past week at your house, and for showing us and everyone else what this beast is capable. It will only get better from here I'm sure with all the things in your head right now that you will tweak and add to this car to make it continually perform better.

And very impressive showing at Optima. Now that you are a semi-pro driver and borderline celebrity, you and Payback needed an official beer, which I present to you and the rest of the community. Literally, :cheers:

Put those on ice and bring to RTTC and when you win that event, we will toast you then. :D

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/photo_004-1.jpg

[Vegas69]

I had a great week with Sema and the Optima Challenge. Big thanks go out to Larry for the opportunity to represent Pro-Touring.com. It was a real honor. The event was run flawlessly by Jimi Day and his crew. The week started out on Monday when Carl and I cruised down to SEMA together and put our cars in the Optima Batteries corral. This event is supported by many great sponsors and I was happy to sticker up my car. In fact, I really like the way it looks in race mode. I had the first TV interview of my life. That was interesting to say the least.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010011.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010002.jpg
Up next was the Road Rally part of the competition. The cars had to be driven from SEMA to the Silverton for a photo then out to Pahrump. Extra points were awarded for two photos of Las Vegas landmarks. Naturally, I had to stop by Larry Flints Hustler tittie club. Kelli was with me or I may have lost out on those points. It was the perfect night for a Road Rally. Being the local, I was the first to make it to the Silverton and 2nd to Pahrump.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010038.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010027.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010017.jpg
Doug Renner(Dfresh) and Dave Gordon(Flash68) came in on Thursday and stayed with me. We had a great time joking around and ripping on each other. AJ(Skatinjay27) was my other crew member. His only two jobs were to keep media whore Renner in line and away from vendors, and to stock the cooler full of beer. He managed to drop the ball on both jobs. Not only did Renner come back to the pits with a Ring Brothers shirt on, the cooler didn’t have one damn Bud Light in it after the race! I have forgiven him for Renner, that was mission impossible. HAHA

They actually did a great job for me. I had them tech my car and keep it full of gas. They also made my air pressure adjustments. AJ spotted a loose compressor bolt after the road race that probably saved my belt for the rest of the competition.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010086.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010050.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010043.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010086.jpg
My first event was the Road Race portion of the event. I have to admit I was a little nervous on the big stage. This was only my 3rd road race and the last time was in April at El Toro. I’d also never been on street compounds. I made a last minute air pressure change that tightened the car up a little to much. The car was really good though and ran flawless. I haven’t seen the results yet but last I checked I was 7th out of 52 cars. Rumor has it I’m around 10th. I’m proud of that with my lack of experience and a car that’s not quite right on street treads. There were some really top quality cars this year. 51 or 52 finished all segments.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010109.jpg
1 Warm up lap, 3 hot laps, 1 cool down. My second lap ended up being the fastest. I blew my 3rd over cooking the back straight. I was only .2 slower than my second. That could of been a great lap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q0zu5JViA0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4xqtsT-XVM
The Auto Cross portion didn’t go well for me. It was a really tight course with 3 180 degree turns. My car was tight and doesn’t have a great turning radius to begin with. I’m really used to high speed autocrosses. I see 60-80mph at our local SCCA. I need to work on these slow speed courses to keep up with the likes of Stielow, Finch, and DSE.

The speed stop challenge is a favorite of mine. Give it hell and stop as fast as you can. At RTTC in April I posted the fastest time in the field and felt ultra confident. I really had some trouble getting out of the hole here. I had to feather the clutch and slowly put my foot down. The car seems to be transferring plenty of weight. I think I did well at El Toro due to it being a higher speed event where I could take advantage of all my power in 2nd and 3rd. I ended up mid pack in this event and that was disappointing. Stielow rand 6.4x and I ran a 7.0x. Half a second was the difference from first to 25th. I think a better launch and a better shifting tranny will help me in the slower stop challenges. I really feel I got the most out of my car that day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKma45XBTsw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZWF9MAw1Ow
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010176.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010172.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010160.jpg
Carl and I had a friendly rivalry going all week. We had the whole Top Gun deal going. I was Iceman and he was Hollywood. I don’t think anybody had more fun than us. I showed up to the Lateral-G party in a wife beater and a pair of blue blockers. I asked him if “He’d figured out who the best driver was?” Carl beat me on the Road Course by about a .5 second and placed well in the autocross. He got me this time. He’s at the top of the list of people I don’t mind getting beat by. Carl, Iceman is gunning for you at the next event. Dave bought me some Payback beer from a brewery in San Francisco. I had to celebrate without a win but it didn’t matter. I had a great time and made some new friends along the way. I completed the event and DROVE my car back home in the same condition I started out with. That's Pro-Touring!
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010177.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010128.jpg

[Musclerodz]

Nice meeting you Todd at the party and congrats on doing well at ousci

[65 347]

It' nice to see someone drive and have fun with their car, great job!

[Flash68]

Great post Todd. Vids are sweet. Glad you cracked one of those beers - you deserved it!

Oh, and nice crane kick Daniel Laruso.. I mean, Carl. That looks deadly. :D

[Matt@BOS]

I'm never going to forget running into Iceman at the Sin City brewery. I just remember thinking, holy S*** it's iceman, how does he know who I am?

Keep us posted on the suspension tuning. I'll be reading up and taking notes!

Matt

[Stuart Adams]

Todd, your car looked great. Performed well, you should be proud.

[waynieZ]

Glad to hear you did well Todd, but best of all you guys had a good time.

[ironworks]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010050.jpg

It looks like after 2 days at SEMA Doug's head was getting bigger then his hair.
:D

You guys looked good out there. 10th place in that event is nothing to sneeze at. Some of those guys bring the heat.

[awr68]

Great job Team Payback! It was fun hanging out with you all...good times! :cheers:

[rwhite692]

Todd, (or should I say, Iceman) Looks like you had a great time, thanks for posting the pics, you did great.... was LOL at some of these pics!...Was great to meet you at the Lat-G get-together. -Rob

[Vegas69]

Thanks guys....:cheers: Renner has clearly used his can of bikini wax spray when he meant to use the nuclear strength rogaine spray.:rofl:

[96z28ss]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010050.jpg



Doug you should spend less time perfecting the formula down for the Panel Gap spray. Look in to getting that Hair Gap spray formula working.

[NOT A TA]

Great post on the event ICE! Looks like you guys had a lot of fun!

[CrossRamRich]

Thanks for the hospitallity Todd! Could not have done it without you. :cheers:

[tones2SS]

Great post Todd. Congrats on representing pro-touring.com as well.
Someday I have to make it out to SEMA and hang with the lateral-g/pro-touring guys. Looked like an awesome time. Congrats!:thumbsup: :cheers: :cheers:

[Rybar]

Congrats Todd, way to represent :thumbsup:

[Cris@JCG]

Todd- Had a great time messing with you @ the challenge!

I got a chance to really look @ your car & all I can say is your did a fantastic job :thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

That means alot coming from you Cris.:cheers: The wheels are spinning on how I'm going to improve myself and the car for El Toro. I have to be honest, mid pack isn't good enough for me. :fire: The competition has improved dramatically even since the beginning of the year. Time to get serious about this deal. :D

[GregWeld]

That means alot coming from you Cris.:cheers: The wheels are spinning on how I'm going to improve myself and the car for El Toro. I have to be honest, mid pack isn't good enough for me. :fire: The competition has improved dramatically even since the beginning of the year. Time to get serious about this deal. :D

:rofl: :rofl:

Maybe try some leaf springs..... :D

[Vegas69]

HA HA Thanks, slap yourself for me would ya?:lol:

[skatinjay27]

lets see
road course- get alot more track time in... lets be honest that was only the THIRD time you have even been on a full size road course and when you consider how much more racing time the guys that did faster than you have, you did a killer job.

auto-x - lets be real that course was lame... even more so after i got to see the vid and was able see what it looked like from the drivers perspective. it pretty much consisted of 3 u-turn and that was it... but with that you just need to practice more when they have the smaller tighter courses like a silverton.

speed stop- you need a new trans or get the tko modified and then learn to bang those gears faster... the braking part was fantastic.


o yeah i almost forgot!!!
but first and foremost if you wanna be a winner you need to stuff an LS in there!!!:lol:

[Vegas69]

I was ready to cry and hug until you mentioned that LS bull ****. :rofl:

[lhkustoms]

I was ready to cry and hug until you mentioned that LS bull ****. :rofl:

Too funny. Todd you did great at the event :thumbsup:
Thanks again for the hospitality much appreciated. Your car looks great in person and you have it dialed in well. It would have been pretty awesome to tear up the Tarmac with the "twins" next time. Eric is hooked now so we'll have to do it at El Toro in the spring Thanks again bro.

[Spiffav8]

Todd...it took me three days to watch all the videos. Yeah...the internet is really slow here. I think you did a great job and probably had more fun that most. Of course the more seat time you get the better you will be.

Looking forward to seeing you when I get home next month and hope to tag along to a few events.

Thanks again for all the videos!

:cheers:

[Vegas69]

Luke, it was fun man. I wish we could've cruised them. If the Optima Challenge doesn't get you hooked, nothing will. Look forward to seeing you guys again in February. Just make sure to clear bra that pretty paint job. El Toro will tear up the paint.

Curtis, I appreciate that man. You should come out to the events when you get home. I still haven't convinced myself that I want to run the Camaro at the Silverton. I'm like most of the road racers around here, these tiny autocross courses just aren't any fun in this car. I may have to force myself to get good at them. That is clearly a big weakness for me. I don't think the car is even close to set up right for them. It seems the courses are always small at these big events. I know we'll be back at the speedway after the new year.

My local SCCA has an autocross in the top and bottom lot at Spring Mountain the day after the Optima Challenge.
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[96z28ss]

wow now that is an autocross.

Todd it was nice hanging out with You, Kelly, Dave, and Doug again. Dinner was nice and low key. Greg and myself will be down at RTTC we'll see about bringing Tim, although he is a bit of a trouble maker.

We might be able to talk Greg into driving his car at elToro.

its been awhile since I did any autocrosses but practice has alot to do with knocking your time down.
Have you done a driving school? maybe doing a couple of those will help your road course times.
But most importantly is try and get Rodger and Doug to speed up development on the BBC to LS9 Spray.

[mdprovee]

Todd,

Congrats on your experience at OUSCI. Your car is one of my favorites.

See ya at El Torro..

[tones2SS]

wow now that is an autocross.

^^This!:yes: :thumbsup:

[skatinjay27]

damn that suck that the scca was right after the optima cause that looked like a fun ass course!

[GregWeld]

damn that suck that the scca was right after the optima cause that looked like a fun ass course!

Nah! Too many turns! :rofl:

[Vegas69]

wow now that is an autocross.

Todd it was nice hanging out with You, Kelly, Dave, and Doug again. Dinner was nice and low key. Greg and myself will be down at RTTC we'll see about bringing Tim, although he is a bit of a trouble maker.

We might be able to talk Greg into driving his car at elToro.

its been awhile since I did any autocrosses but practice has alot to do with knocking your time down.
Have you done a driving school? maybe doing a couple of those will help your road course times.
But most importantly is try and get Rodger and Doug to speed up development on the BBC to LS9 Spray.

They have a few great course designers. I heard through the grapevine that they were contacted to set up the Optima Challenge course but couldn't come to terms.

Weld won't show up, it would be impossible for him to back up his big mouth witht that dump truck. :D

I am going to do a driving school, possibly with my own car. I need to learn how to heel toe badly along with racing lines.

****, I already have more power than that little mouse, LS9. Stock of course. Weight is comparable with the added weight of the supercharger.

[96z28ss]

They have a few great course designers. I heard through the grapevine that they were contacted to set up the Optima Challenge course but couldn't come to terms.

Weld won't show up, it would be impossible for him to back up his big mouth witht that dump truck. :D

I am going to do a driving school, possibly with my own car. I need to learn how to heel toe badly along with racing lines.

****, I already have more power than that little mouse, LS9. Stock of course. Weight is comparable with the added weight of the supercharger.

Yeah but its the curve that matters. It would interesting to see what both curves look like on top of each other.

[Vegas69]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/ZL1DynoGraph_0002.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/0804phr_07_zgms_ls9_engine.jpg

Power isn't the problem. I turn it to 6800 and it's still making 632hp at redline. Peak power is 666hp at 6200 and 641 ftlbs at 4700. I realize this LS9 graph is the minimum the engine will produce but I have it by a nice margin all over the place. There are stock chassis dyno pulls on youtube and they make 520- 530 hp to the tires and 518-525tq. I made 493/497 at the tires with my old engine and it only had 593/587 at the crank. The biggest difference is the LS9 gets good mileage and has a mild hydraulic cam. I have to build a solid roller motor to compete. Now, my engine doesn't have a large cam by solid and big block standards. It's got good drivability. I'm not trying to say my engine is superior to the LSX line, I'm simply saying I have plenty of power to compete with anyone. I could pull off 4 plug wires for these tiny autocrosses anyway. I don't come close to full throttle. In fact, I didn't use full throttle much in the speed stop challenge either. I couldn't find the traction.

[GregWeld]

I'm bringing some big guns to RTTC - and have a couple things lined up to surprise and delight....


Neither of which is named Bob or Tim.


:>)

[Bow Tie 67]

Todd take the driving school with your car and get an instructor that yells at you. Smooth is fast, always, the suspension likes to be loaded and not see any abrupt changes. Now get out there and pass that " Top Gun " test. :thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

That's the plan along with some chassis changes.:thumbsup:

[mdprovee]

Todd,

I am looking into a driving school also, not sure if this fits into what you are looking into but here it is. It's at El Torro also.

http://evoschool.com/

[CarlC]

Oh, and nice crane kick Daniel Laruso.. I mean, Carl. That looks deadly. :D

Man, did all of us have a laugh taking that pic! If you can't have some fun with good friends during an event like this, it's time to go home.

[Flash68]

Man, did all of us have a laugh taking that pic! If you can't have some fun with good friends during an event like this, it's time to go home.

That was definitely one of many stomach ache inducing laughing moments of the week/weekend. Good times my friend.

[Spiffav8]

That was definitely one of many stomach ache inducing laughing moments of the week/weekend. Good times my friend.

That is the best picture I've seen from the entire week! Prof it's all about having fun with your friends.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

Todd take the driving school with your car and get an instructor that yells at you. Smooth is fast, always, the suspension likes to be loaded and not see any abrupt changes. Now get out there and pass that " Top Gun " test. :thumbsup:

So true.. i plan on hitting a few schools.. need to my skill closer to the performance level of my car.

As long as I beat Todd at the RTTC I'll be happy.. lol

[Bow Tie 67]

So true.. i plan on hitting a few schools.. need to my skill closer to the performance level of my car.

As long as I beat Todd at the RTTC I'll be happy.. lol

How about a Lemans start :willy:

[Vegas69]

So true.. i plan on hitting a few schools.. need to my skill closer to the performance level of my car.

As long as I beat Todd at the RTTC I'll be happy.. lol

That's what I said about you at the Optima Challenge. :lol: I'll be ready! Remember, the point system is different. It's the accumulation of time. There ain't no points for a pretty paint job. :unibrow: The road course is where it should be won or lost at El Toro.

[Steve1968LS2]

How about a Lemans start :willy:

Im in!

:woot:

[Steve1968LS2]

That's what I said about you at the Optima Challenge. :lol: I'll be ready! Remember, the point system is different. It's the accumulation of time. There ain't no points for a pretty paint job. :unibrow: The road course is where it should be won or lost at El Toro.

Ok, we will both run the course without a front sway bar.. deal? :rofl:

Give me a break.. you act like your car isn't nice looking and is some ratty track whore.. who you trying to fool? ;)

See ya in February :unibrow:

[Vegas69]

I'm amazed at your 2:00 lap with a broken sway bar. That sucker had some wicked body roll, about like stock! With us both on the same rubber and you with a sway bar, I think we are pretty close. Last year El Toro was a horsepower track unlike Spring Mountain. You better bring your A game Rupp! :cool:

[Steve1968LS2]

I'm amazed at your 2:00 lap with a broken sway bar. That sucker had some wicked body roll, about like stock! With us both on the same rubber and you with a sway bar, I think we are pretty close. Last year El Toro was a horsepower track unlike Spring Mountain. You better bring your A game Rupp! :cool:

I will bring my game.. just not sure if it will be Candyland or Shoots and Ladders.. ;)

El Toro will be fun.. maybe we can shoot your showcar then ;)


Wow.. we have two more months of smack talking to endure.. yikes!

[CarlC]

Wow.. we have two more months of smack talking to endure.. yikes!

Iceman.
Hollywood.
Now a name for Rupp.

[Steve1968LS2]

Iceman.
Hollywood.
Now a name for Rupp.

Which one.. Iceman? I hope that doesn't refer to traction!!! :drive:

[CarlC]

Todd = Iceman.
Carl = Hollywood.

Like all callsigns, you don't get to pick. It gets chosen for you.

Let the fun begin.

[Steve1968LS2]

Todd = Iceman.
Carl = Hollywood.

Like all callsigns, you don't get to pick. It gets chosen for you.

Let the fun begin.

How about snappy since I'm always breaking stuff.. :)

[CarlC]

I've got a few in mind, but I need to chew on 'em for a while. It's not something you want to rush in to since it will likely stick with you for a while.

[Vegas69]

We'll come up with something good....:unibrow:

[Steve1968LS2]

We'll come up with something good....:unibrow:

You know.. if you do it just to be mean that's really not in the spirit.. lol

Hey guys, there's a killer autocross here next weekend.. LOTS of runs at the California Speedway.

Thinking of going since my new bar will be here Monday.. interested?

[mfain]

Hey Todd,

On a lighter note and as indicated above, you might want to be cautious with the "call sign" thing. With 35-plus years experience playing the callsign game in the military fighter community, I have seen some pretty funny (and sometimes rough) stuff -- like the guy, last name Masters, who tried to self-name himself "Dutch" (Dutch Masters). Didn't float, so he was forever known as "Bater". Then there's Booger, Tits, Skids, and Crash -- all with good stories. As far as the Topgun theme goes, you might want to Google Quentin Tarantino's U-tube version of the movie. LOL Good seeing you at Optima. Your car looked very sharp and you will make it an on-track winner.

Pappy

[1965_SS]

Just gotta say that after reading ALL 1800+ posts and pictures over the last few days that this was an amazing build. Good job and awesome car:thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

Steve, I'm a little sizzled right now. The whole SEMA/Optima challenge thing along with a cold and work has me wanting to do nothing. :unibrow:

Pappy, we'll take it easy on Steve. :lol: Love that Corvette man!

Todd, thanks for the kind words. :cheers:

[Flash68]

Just gotta say that after reading ALL 1800+ posts and pictures over the last few days that this was an amazing build. Good job and awesome car:thumbsup:

When I first saw your post and username, I thought you were the builder of Todd's previous "less-than-stellar" big block. :_paranoid

[1965_SS]

When I first saw your post and username, I thought you were the builder of Todd's previous "less-than-stellar" big block. :_paranoid

Nope, not me.

[Vegas69]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/63908_172458292776344_159522257403281_447751_68982 51_n1.jpg
Look at that weight transfer.....

It would be great if this was drag racing and I had the travel available. Since the Optima Challenge, I know the driver and car need help to get where I want to be. My first obstacle is that I've found that my rear shocks are bottoming out big time. I don't know if removing the rear sway bar made it that much worse or I've just been to dense to notice. :D I did know the RR was but the LR always had a little left until recently.

I decided to start from scratch and design a new bracket to increase my shock travel by 5/8". Any more and I will run into rear differential cover to crooss member contact or tunnel to pinion housing contact. The brackets are being cut now. Number two is the spring rate is clearly to soft. So I started from scratch and did a base spring rate calculation. To do that, you loosen the spring adjuster collar until the spring is at full length with just a hint of tension. You take that measurment and then drop the car on the ground to see how far the spring is compressed.

Free length is 11.75"
Compressed is 8.25"
11.75-8.25=3.5"
Current Spring Rate is 175=152 Adjusted due to 20 degree angle
3.5 x 152=532
Desired bump travel 2.58
532/2.58=206 Spring rate needed

So basically I need about 50 lb/in more than I currently have to control the weight. I'm going to start with a 220 lb/in spring and go from there. The ideal compressed spring length is around 9.34. That is over an inch more than I have now!!! I'm positive that my shocks were bottoming out under acceleration and some cornering. I'm hoping the extra spring rate and 5/8 extra shock travel keep the rear from bottoming out.

Up next may be the front springs. I have a feeling they are a little soft as well. I really want to keep the ride nice so I need to walk a fine line. I really want to get the car where it stays flatter in all the events. To much body roll and weight transfer is not good for what I do with the car. Stay tuned..
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/OptimaChallenge2010109.jpg

[BBC69Camaro]

Sorry to hear your spring rates are off. What do you have in the front?

Frank set me up with 225lbs/in rate in the rear which sounds like from your calculations should be good, which makes me glad. I have 550lbs/in up front but that is with a BBC.

Car looks and sound great on the track thou, wish I was at the same point you are :hail: I'm still scraping stuff off my roof :lol:

[Vegas69]

I have 450's up front. With an all aluminum big block it puts me at about 500 lbs for the engine vs around 750 for a iron big block. I'll let you know how the 220's work out.

[GregWeld]

I have 450's up front. With an all aluminum big block it puts me at about 500 lbs for the engine vs around 750 for a iron big block. I'll let you know how the 220's work out.

I was running 450's up front on the Nomad.. it's a SBC so is probably about what the ZL1 BBC is.... and I went to 550's up front and the ride GOT BETTER not worse.

These things all aren't what they seem on paper. I'd have bet my last buck the 450's would give nice ride and the 550's would be harsher... but go figure. I also changed the shocks from QA1's (they suck) to Strange.... so that may also have helped with the overall ride quality. My sister got in the car - I didn't tell her I'd done anything -- and she says -- Have you done something to the ride? It used to ride like crap!

She's right of course.... Gee.... come to think of it -- I sure hope she got home okay. :lol:

[Vegas69]

What's that Nomad weigh, 6000 lbs?:D I agree, I just don't want to swap both ends at once. I may go to 500's just to split the difference.

[GregWeld]

What's that Nomad weigh, 6000 lbs?


4023 #'s to be exact and weight balanced by a professional race shop here.

It's "svelte" like me! :D

[mfain]

Hey Todd, car is looking great! I have a question about your rear spring rate change. Obviously you are doing that to carry the weight and to prevent the shocks from bottoming. Are you concerned about making the car "looser" by increasing the rear roll stiffness without also increasing the front? Stiffer springs on the rear will definitely induce more oversteer, although not nearly as bad as bottoming a shock in the middle of a turn. I remember that you were fighting a loose condition early on. IMHO, You might have to sacrafice a little ride comfort (stiffer front springs) to get the car back in balance.

Pappy

[tones2SS]

That's one mean looking car.
Good luck with the spring rate.:thumbsup:

[Payton King]

I would guess Stielow's car's motor weighs about what yours does and he is running 550 front and 275 rear. I think Rupp runs 550 or 500 front with a 275 rear. Mary Pozzi's 2nd gen runs a custom 275 lbs rear leaf.

Not getting into sway bars or sizing, but I would probably start at 550 in front and 275 in the rear. Seems to me with 3 different style suspension set ups, the 275 seems to work with these cars.

[Vegas69]

Pappy, you are absolutely right. Since I unhooked the sway bar, the car is actually a little to tight. I dropped the air pressure in the tires and it tightened it up even more. My thought was that the correct spring rate and more travel may balance out the car with the current front spring. Who knows....

Payton, listening to Mark's interview after the challenge is what got my wheels spinning. He mentioned 550/250 in the interview. His car looked really sporty. You are probably right, who better to copy! I think you have me talked into swapping the front springs.

[ironworks]

What brand of springs are running? I just changed the brand on mine and found a difference in the same pressure.

[Vegas69]

What brand of springs are running? I just changed the brand on mine and found a difference in the same pressure.

Fronts are whatever DSE uses and the rear are Alston or where they source.

I've got a call into hypercoil. I may as well stay with the same brand on all four corners. What do you recommend Rodger?

[ironworks]

Fronts are whatever DSE uses and the rear are Alston or where they source.

I've got a call into hypercoil. I may as well stay with the same brand on all four corners. What do you recommend Rodger?

Ridetech is selling Hyperco's now. The DSE units may very well be Hyperco.

The selction alston has is not broad enough for tuning a little bit. Plus the lengths are all over the map. I had problem on my car since it is so light so I switched to Hyperco's just for the selection.

[DEIGuy38]

have you looked at these guys springs.

http://www.landrumspring.com/pages/coilsprings.htm?s_subcategory=16&pagenumber=1

[Bow Tie 67]

600 F 250 R great on the road course, ok on the AX, nice on the street.

[Vegas69]

Appreicate it Matt. I need to get my springs ordered today.

[Vegas69]

Does it ever end?:D Tonight I pulled my front and rear coil overs in anticipation of the new hypercoils coming pony express.

I designed some new shock mounting plates to give me an additional 1/2" of rear shock travel at ride height. After removing the springs I bolted on the new shock plates and simulated max shock travel. My measurements are right on the money. The chassis and body won't accept any more shock travel. The pinion housing is about a pinkie away from the crossmember and the rear pumpkin cover is fairly close. The aluminun shock mount was originally designed to be bolted to the rear end housing without a bracket. I had to move it due to wheel to shock contact due to wheel flex under load way back.

I now realize that the original design with my pinioin angle at the time would've caused rear end to cross member contact. I used to run equal and opposite U joint angles. Now I run the car with the smallest u joint angles possible. That changed the shock angle and now they aren't in an alignment with the bracket that suits me. I'm going to change to a ball bearing mounting to eliminate any bind while it's apart.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/ShockUpdate014.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/ShockUpdate012.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/ShockUpdate007.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/ShockUpdate003.jpg

The front springs show sings of coil bind. As you can see, the collars are farther up the housing than I realized. I think it's a combination of a soft front spring and a way to soft rear spring. The moral of the story is the rear shocks were bottoming out and the front springs were coil binding. :D :rolleyes: I may as well have been racing a hay wagon. :rofl:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/ShockUpdate017.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/ShockUpdate016.jpg

P.S. It's a little dirty under there....:_paranoid

[GregWeld]

That's all good stuff Todd! Good find and I know you'll have a good fix for it.

Keeping my fingers crossed for you that the changes work in your favor!


:thumbsup:

[The WidowMaker]

The chassis and body won't accept any more shock travel. The pinion housing is about a pinkie away from the crossmember and the rear pumpkin cover is fairly close.

is this with both wheels compressed the same? if so, you may want to leave a little more travel so that you can have a little more bump travel in turns.

ex. your pinion could touch when both wheels are fully compressed, but you can then move one wheel up and one down without moving the pinion location (same as a turn). if you set the max when the center of your housing touches the crossmember or trunk floor and your axle tubes, tires, brackets etc. dont, youre giving up a little bump travel.

you probably already took this into consideration though.

[j-rho]

What is your front motion ratio?

[Vegas69]

That's an interesting point and I didn't think of it. I did measure it with both shocks bottomed. If there is one thing I've learned building this car, it's to leave yourself more room than you think! I really hope the extra .5" of travel and the new spring rate keep it from bottoming out under accel!

[Jtomas801]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/EnginePhotoShoot040.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/EnginePhotoShoot041.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/EnginePhotoShoot043.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/EnginePhotoShoot044.jpg

I really like how you did your breather set up and I would like to do some thing like this to my Dad's car. What type of hose did you use and what size? Is it -12?

Thanks,
Jon

[67ragtp]

Hey Todd,

The accusump has me curious, do you have to manually open the valve with the yellow handle before every start up and close it before you shut the engine off every time you shut it down?

With the engine off if you open the valve do you know how long it will take for all the oil in the accumulator to discharge?

Do you ever pre charge with air through the shrader valve or is that only if you forget to close the valve before shut down?

Thanks Rich

[Bow Tie 67]

Todd,

FYI make sure you inspect your shocks well. I bottomed out my varishocks and they were damaged. Look closely at the top of shock closer nut, where the shaft enters the shock. A shock that has bottomed out can leak and or have damaged internals. Check the DSE shocks for any fatigue due to coil bind, as most likely the shock body threads and upper spring adapter took a high load.

Matt

[BBC69Camaro]

Hey Todd, whose core support bars are you using?http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/EnginePhotoShoot041.jpg

Need to find a set to replace my stockers that like to leak stuff out of them:
http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l346/Marroweter/Misc/th_MysteryGoo002.jpg (http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l346/Marroweter/Misc/MysteryGoo002.jpg)

Think its some hot tank fluid that got inside them and likes to leak out on hot days. Since I hot tanked them before I had em painted :( (done it like 2-3 times now).

[Vegas69]

John, I used -12 and the low profile fitting on the valve cover is an Earls piece. The hose and 45 is a jegs brand. Don't mix brands in pressure applications. Make sure the valve cover fittings are shrouded and not at the front or back of the cover. I've seen to many guys make that mistake. Where is your oil under accel and braking? This set up has worked fantastic.

Rich, I leave the valve off on the street. It's always charged with 3 qts of oil and 6 psi on the dry side of the piston. It takes around 5 seconds to discharge all the oil. I will from time to time mix up the oil to remove the moisture. I usually open the valve slowly with the engine running. I've got a road race pan on the engine so it's just insurance on the race track. It's 3 extra qts of cooling capacity as well.

Matt, I looked at them and they seem OK. I'll double check them. The varishocks had mild seapage. My LF DSE had seapage while the RF is dry. 5k and a dozen races. Seems pretty par for the course. Looking forward to some reasonable spring rates!

Ed, these are the black anodized twist machine braces. Very happy with them from fitment to build quality.

[Jtomas801]

Cool, thanks for the info Todd.

Thanks,
Jon

[BBC69Camaro]

Cool, thanks for the info Todd.

Thanks,
Jon

x2 :thumbsup:

[65 347]

Todd
I also have a question about your valve cover/breather system. I also have fabricated valve covers with no holes in them, how do you fill the oil? And what brand breather.catch can are you using?
Thanks
Mike

[Vegas69]

Mike, I just unscrew one of the AN fittings and I have a long funnel that fits in the opening perfectly. They are Moroso tanks.

[65 347]

Mike, I just unscrew one of the AN fittings and I have a long funnel that fits in the opening perfectly. They are Moroso tanks.

Thanks, I don't know why I didn't think of something that simple.

[Vegas69]

I ordered a set of Hypercoils from Ridetech last week and they came in on Tuesday. As usual, I couldn't wait to get dirty so I went out and got them installed. Hypercoil reccomended a 10" spring instead of the 12" that Alston spec'd originally. He said it would decrease the preload on the spring to achieve ride height along with being close to coil bind at max shock compression. Hopefully I'll have enough adjustment on the ground. Pretty simple job swapping springs on the coil overs. I set the front springs even and about 1/8 extra preload in the LR vs the RR as that's how it was after my corner weighting. I'll set the ride height close and make sure these are the right springs before I corner weight again.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/011-3.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/010.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/008-3.jpg

I gave the newly designed shock plates the krylon touch and decided to redesign the tow hooks out back. The last set was a last minute deal for my first road race with redline time attack. I never cared for it so another do over. :lol: I ended up buying a set for a BMW with hopes of adapting them. I was hoping for M12 threads and I lucked out since nobody had a clue where I bought them. They have allens on both ends so I could tighten them in place and then a small set screw for backup. The main reason I like two is for tie downs in the trailer. They clear the wheel and shock by enough. I made sure the tow hook will clear the wheel if it decides to swing down. Turned out pretty nice. I've now got my much needed 1/2 of shock travel. Up next is testing.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/013-1.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/025-1.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/012-2.jpg

Before I drop the car on all fours, I am making two other tweaks. Mounting everything solid on these cars sounds great until you drive one. Solid body mounts, solid shock mounts, solid engine mounts, solid steering knuckles, heim joints,etc. Both of my engines have suffered a harmonic vibration between 2700-2900. I can mainly feel it through the steering wheel rowing through the gears putting around town and through the car and steering wheel at say 85-90mph when I hit the rpm range in 5th. So, I'm putting a new steering knuckle in that will cut down on harmonics in the steering wheel. I'm also going to swap the passenger engine mount for a stock interlocking rubber mount. I run 302 Z28 mounts to center the drivetrain. Supposedly it cuts down on vibrations considerably. You know I won't sugar coat it. If I can just get AJ to bring back my picker I'm set. :unibrow:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/032.jpg

Even after a gazillion thread pages and 150,000 views, I'm still working towards perfection. While I don't think perfection is possible, every tweak I make improves the car. The list is getting really short and the light is pretty bright. No, I'm not ready to start over. :D

[CarlC]

No worries Todd. After RTTC and an Elvis experience, you'll be back in the garage with more ideas.

[Vegas69]

The trans is the next major change. I'm trying to be patient. I heard noise of a TKO 600 Magnum. Who knows when and if.... I almost pulled the trigger on a Liberty modded Tko 600 but he wouldn't give me free shipping.:D

[89 RS]

Good stuff Todd, curious to see how you like those Hypercoils.

[syborg tt]

Before I drop the car on all fours, I am making two other tweaks. Mounting everything solid on these cars sounds great until you drive one. Solid body mounts, solid shock mounts, solid engine mounts, solid steering knuckles, heim joints,etc.

As you know I've already started the next project and the I have been going back and 4th on body mounts. I already know that i am going poly on the engine and Ride Tech's suspension. My concern has been the solid mounts for a daily driver.

My question is would you still do the solid mounts on the body ?

[tones2SS]

Awesome stuff Todd. I hope those Hypercoils work out for you.
Good luck.:thumbsup:

[conekiller13]

Lookin' very nice. I dig the tow hook......looks custom and clean.

[Vegas69]

As you know I've already started the next project and the I have been going back and 4th on body mounts. I already know that i am going poly on the engine and Ride Tech's suspension. My concern has been the solid mounts for a daily driver.

My question is would you still do the solid mounts on the body ?

Once you weld the subframe connectors to the body, you really have no choice. (DSE) That being said, I'd take a completely different approach to a daily driver than I have with a cross breed.

[Matt@BOS]

Once you weld the subframe connectors to the body, you really have no choice. (DSE) That being said, I'd take a completely different approach to a daily driver than I have with a cross breed.

Todd, what are the primary things that you'd change? I just picked up a project I want to be able to drive almost daily so I'm all ears for advice too. I know your engine shakes the earth and could probably open up fault lines, which depending on your likes might not make it ideal, but what else would you not put on a driver, solid mounts, a 4pt cage, etc?

Other than the engine combo our cars are fairly similar and I think the only thing that would keep me from driving it everyday (aside from worrying about leaving it in parking lots) would be the noise. I feel like I've stepped off an eight our flight after driving it for a couple hours.

Matt

[DOOM]

Todd whats your rear tire size?

[skatinjay27]

yeah yeah yeah just keep it on the stands a few more day... i'll be there sunday evening.haha

marty i really dont think solid body mounts affect ride quality at all they just prevent flex between the frame and body.
just think of all the unibody cars they have no sort of bushing as thier are "one with the car" lol just make the sure the suspension is doing its job correctly
i think for a DD poly trans and motor mounts would still give enough to not transmit the vibrations to much but still give you the strength need for a high TQ car.

[Vegas69]

Good, I'll put your ass to work.:lol: Keep in mind that modern cars are designed for no body mounts. They have rubber mounted everything and engineering to cut down on frequency and vibrations.

Mario, they are 335's.

For a daily driver:

As many GM parts as possible.
Less rowdy engine 400-500hp/fuel injection
Fairly quiet exhaust
Well engineered fuel tank with reliable fuel sender down to empty
Rubber mounted everywhere possible
NO roll bar so the back seat is usable
Power brakes
Automatic(GM 6 speed)
Softer spring rates(just like I HAD)
Dynamat everywhere/Heat wave pro(Doors,Roof, Firewall, Floor, Trunk)
Electric Windows/Locks
PCV system
Xenon lights
Collapsable steering column
Modern 3 point belts
Navigation
Light paint color(Decent driver paint)
Easy to maintain finishes(Chrome wheels or powdercoated)
Floating rear caliper
LED tail lights
Side marker lights
Keep everything servicable(No hiding wiper motors in fenders, ecms under the front seat, etc...)


With all that being said, you will never achieve the level a modern car can achieve in function, noise, and reliability. There is a reason modern cars don't have metal dashes, fenders, flat windshields, wall for a front end.... I would NEVER attemp to please myself on a daily driver basis. It's hard enough to do on a weekend warrior. I've been spoiled with my daily drivers over the last decade. It all comes down to what your ideal daily driver is... Mine is dropping it off at the dealership for anthing but a car wash.

[Stuart Adams]

They are never done, i.e. the future LS, JK, kinda like Janet Reno in a makeup shop.

[Vegas69]

Is there a better way to spend a day off than to hail mary the car on some lonely desert roads? :D It's cold(40ish) and very windy. Heater works great so it made for a nice ride.

I got the new engine mount and steering shaft knuckle installed along with shimming the rear axle bearings to tighten them up. I have the ride height roughly dialed in and will wait until the springs settle to finalize. That will likely also include corner weighting the car.

The car feels great The spring changes made it feel more like a sports car should. Firmer but still with a nice ride. I put almost 100 miles on the car today on some lonely desert roads. That afforded me the chance to do some high speed slalom, 0-100, 0-60, slow speed sharp corners. Car is a rocket! To my surprise I met a state trooper way off the beaten path. At nearly twice the posted speed limit he just sounded his siren and kept going. :D Good thing, I was just at the court house last week! The engine mount and steering knuckle definitely took some of the harmonics out of the car. I can't wait to get it back on the track. :thumbsup:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/12-30-10_1320.jpg

[tones2SS]

Sounds like you got it all tuned out. Good deal. Watch out for those State Troopers.:_paranoid
One of my favorite cars on this forum for sure.:yes:

[Ron in SoCal]

Ride height looks perfect Todd. I always questioned if those 'vibration reducing' knuckles really worked? Thanks for confirming....

[BBC69Camaro]

Dang I'm envious, wish I was on the road to do the drive you did. Height looks great :thumbsup:

[Flash68]

Sounds like a fun & rewarding day of flogging Todd. That trooper must be a "car guy." :unibrow:

[Stuart Adams]

Awesome Todd. Love the car.

[coolwelder62]

Todd, car is looking great and sound's like you are getting it dailed in to be the perfect PT-camaro.:thumbsup:

[69x22]

I ordered a set of Hypercoils from Ridetech last week and they came in on Tuesday. As usual, I couldn't wait to get dirty so I went out and got them installed. Hypercoil reccomended a 10" spring instead of the 12" that Alston spec'd originally. He said it would decrease the preload on the spring to achieve ride height along with being close to coil bind at max shock compression. Hopefully I'll have enough adjustment on the ground. Pretty simple job swapping springs on the coil overs. I set the front springs even and about 1/8 extra preload in the LR vs the RR as that's how it was after my corner weighting. I'll set the ride height close and make sure these are the right springs before I corner weight again.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/011-3.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/010.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/008-3.jpg

I gave the newly designed shock plates the krylon touch and decided to redesign the tow hooks out back. The last set was a last minute deal for my first road race with redline time attack. I never cared for it so another do over. :lol: I ended up buying a set for a BMW with hopes of adapting them. I was hoping for M12 threads and I lucked out since nobody had a clue where I bought them. They have allens on both ends so I could tighten them in place and then a small set screw for backup. The main reason I like two is for tie downs in the trailer. They clear the wheel and shock by enough. I made sure the tow hook will clear the wheel if it decides to swing down. Turned out pretty nice. I've now got my much needed 1/2 of shock travel. Up next is testing.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/013-1.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/025-1.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/012-2.jpg

Before I drop the car on all fours, I am making two other tweaks. Mounting everything solid on these cars sounds great until you drive one. Solid body mounts, solid shock mounts, solid engine mounts, solid steering knuckles, heim joints,etc. Both of my engines have suffered a harmonic vibration between 2700-2900. I can mainly feel it through the steering wheel rowing through the gears putting around town and through the car and steering wheel at say 85-90mph when I hit the rpm range in 5th. So, I'm putting a new steering knuckle in that will cut down on harmonics in the steering wheel. I'm also going to swap the passenger engine mount for a stock interlocking rubber mount. I run 302 Z28 mounts to center the drivetrain. Supposedly it cuts down on vibrations considerably. You know I won't sugar coat it. If I can just get AJ to bring back my picker I'm set. :unibrow:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/032.jpg

Even after a gazillion thread pages and 150,000 views, I'm still working towards perfection. While I don't think perfection is possible, every tweak I make improves the car. The list is getting really short and the light is pretty bright. No, I'm not ready to start over. :D


Hey Todd, that black fuel hose that you are running, is it teflon lined?
Man I appreciate you posting all of the improvments that work on your car, (and all of the stuff that didn't work) it helps some of us in the building stage cut through the chase and save some money on our builds. You always take the time and throw in the detail that people need.

[Vegas69]

Appreciate it guys...:cheers: Getting out and getting her dirty is still by far the best aspect of building these things for me. I even ran into a hint of snow. My ass would've been puckered driving it down these roads 2 years ago. Now I just have a great time. :thumbsup:

I'm not one for secrets. I'm a firm believer in what comes around, goes around. I've made plenty of mistakes plowing the road to where I am today. Many by misguided information out there and upgrading vendors products to work in my world. The harder you push your car, the more miticulous things need to be. A weekend cruise vs. balls to the wall on the track are night and day. Building from scratch has been a larger challenge than I anticipated.

Most of the hose and fittings are Jegs brand. I did use hard 1/2 aluminum line from wheel well to wheel well. I would use teflon lined to be safe. I don't get the fuel smell in the garage and the hoses ae still pliable last time I checked. (Fuel is your main concern) Once again, that info wasn't out there when I started down this road. I'll be keeping a close eye. If I do encounter problems, it will go teflon.

[vinz68]

Lookin good!! Thde tie down hooks look like a great idea.:thumbsup:

[waynieZ]

Todd the tiedowns look great. Thats good info on the solid mounts. I'm thinking of using solid body and engine mounts. I want the car to handle but I want it to be decent to drive around town.

[70rs]

Very nice work as usual Todd. I like the new hooks, and the info on the solid mounts is also appreciated.

I'm thinking 2011 is going to be a good year for you and Payback!:cheers:

[Vegas69]

After the Optima Challenge and reviewing the video I realized how bad I needed a harness. My seats fit me well but I needed to reposition myself mide corner. There is enough to think about with 650 hp under the hood. I called up Ridetech and Rodney and I came up with a plan to get a harness bar in my car. We decided to have him send me the clamps and I could position them and take an eye to eye measurement. Rodney will then weld me up a harness bar and I'll likely paint the center section and leave the ends stainless. I haven't decided if I'll remove the 3 point belts at this point. Or simply use the same anchors and use the race belts only at events. Anyway, after doing some reading I've seen many different maximum belt angles and came across this article and it really makes sense.
http://www.circletrack.com/safety/ctrp_0712_seat_harness_mount/misc_guidelines.html
The angle of the shoulder harness should be 90 degrees in comparison to your spine angle. I found what I feel is a comfortable driving position. I just need to verify it's approx. 90 degrees. Anybody disagree??
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/HarnessBar009.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/HarnessBar004.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/HarnessBar003.jpg

[68protouring454]

around there, but generally from where it goes thru the seat to the cross bar should be no more then 20 degree angle, but you want at least 10 degrees down angle on the harness's.

[Vegas69]

I was expecting a told you so from you Jake. :unibrow: It should be right in the sweet spot where it's mounted now. What belts do you reccomend? Should I bolt them on or wrap?

[Matt@BOS]

I was expecting a told you so from you Jake. :unibrow: It should be right in the sweet spot where it's mounted now. What belts do you reccomend? Should I bolt them on or wrap?

I would bolt them in. I've also got pretty much the exact same setup that you have. Strangely enough, I ended up with a DSE cage with Tiger Cage cross bar mounts. It looks like you've got it all figured out, but if you need pictures, let me know.

Oh, and it's just my personal preference, but I would run a 3pt belt on the street. I always end up driving with only the lap belts for the 4pts connected because you can't move around if enough if you're just out cruising.

Matt

[Vegas69]

That is exactly why I put 3 points in the car originally. I'm definitely leaning towards bolting in the shoulder belts(For quick removal between events) and using the same anchor points for the lap belts and just laying them in the rear floor board. I would like to see a picture of your set up. Thanks Matt..:thumbsup:

[skatinjay27]

Oh, and it's just my personal preference, but I would run a 3pt belt on the street. I always end up driving with only the lap belts for the 4pts connected because you can't move around if enough if you're just out cruising.

Matt
yep very true... i had a harness bar in my 4th gen for a year and a half and the majority of the time i would just wear the lap belt...(not to safe) you gotta strain your self just to reach the radio controls lol.

yeah todd I've always planed to do just that (run 3 points on a regular basis and just leave the laps on the ground when not in use) if i ever get the camaro running again! you better measure that right!!! haha

[CarlC]

I'm with Matt. I hate harnesses on the street. Having an inertia reel three-point shoulder belt is a lot more practical.

I leave the floor-pan bolted harnesses in the car when it's not on the track. The side belts tuck in well between the seat and the side of the floorpan, and the sub goes under the seat.

[Rybar]

Really smart idea Todd. Well done.

[The WidowMaker]

check out this link

http://www.schrothracing.com/sdocs/2009_Competition_Instructions.pdf

my plan is to run a removable harness bar without a cage for a set of the schroth harnesses and run 3 points off the harness bar attachment points when the bar isnt there. i really dont like how the bolt in 3 points hang so much "stuff" from the roof that just dangles there so i want them much lower and a little more hidden.

read over schroths site and check out the crash test videos. there is a lot of info on 2" vs 3", belt angles, anchor loads and requirements etc.......

here is a site that has given me a couple ideas for the 3 pts. some of their installs seem to put the shoulder straps a little low, but mock up on my chevelle shows i will be right at the 20*.

http://www.quickfitsbs.com/gallery.asp

[Vegas69]

I've already got 3 points. I decided to go the route I did originally due to the fact I didn't like the belts hanging from the ceiling as well. I'm going to order a set of simpson belts and call it a day.

[68protouring454]

schroth profi series. its the best. not cheap, but no harness's are. do at least a 5 point. might as well keep the 3 pt if you are not going to do a 5 or 6 with the sub belt.

[monza]

schroth profi series. its the best. not cheap, but no harness's are. do at least a 5 point. might as well keep the 3 pt if you are not going to do a 5 or 6 with the sub belt.

Except the Sparco seats cant be adapted to fit the 5th or 6th ball hugger belt/s?

This "might" be interesting?
http://www.schrothracing.com/store/Tuning/limited-edition/black-magic

[68protouring454]

a track car deserves a track seat, i have seen many a sparco with a sub belt hole.

[Vegas69]

This ain't no track car, it's an occassional track car that's driven at less than 100%. Big difference IMO. I'd love to have RACE CAR but I can't fathom another penny in cars at this point. :unibrow:

I raced it with 3 points so I'm not overly concerned with my well being I guess. My main focus was to keep from moving around so much. I'll see if I can make a 5 point work.

[bigtyme1]

Great Job on the Tow Hooks Todd. I realized tonight everytime I strap my car down I'm on top of my brake lines. I'll have to do something.

[awr68]

I sure like this car! :thumbsup:

I'm guessing for what you do with the car even going to a 4-point REAL harness would be a HUGE improvement on the track! :yes:

[68protouring454]

If your gonna be fast, and do alot of track days with your car, you will find the limit and go off track and hopefully not into something hard.
I would try to make a 5th point work even if its over the front of the seat.

[awr68]

Can't you have the interior shop that did the car slot the seat for the 5th belt?

[69sponge]

A 5th belt is almost a must.Without it when you pull down on the shoulder belts the lap belt will be pulled up..That 5th belt helps keep the lap belt where it belongs.

[Vegas69]

Gotcha, that makes perfect sense.

Anthony, come on bro. I have done a little of my own work in this 4000 page thread. Shouldn't you be working on something...:unibrow:

[awr68]

Sorry Bro - I meant to say the shop that stitched up the interior...we all know you have done most of the build! :thumbsup: :cheers:
Anyways, I remember you being very happy with their work. I would think they could make it happen for less money that a new seat?

[GregWeld]

Sorry Bro - I meant to say the shop that stitched up the interior...we all know you have done most of the build! :thumbsup: :cheers:
Anyways, I remember you being very happy with their work. I would think they could make it happen for less money that a new seat?



Yeah..... he's done some of it two and three times! :unibrow: :rofl:




I've done stuff on some of my junk more than that and still haven't gotten it right!:faint:

[Vegas69]

I'm not getting new seats. I didn't even think about needing the hole for the jock strap.

Greg, I'm man enough to admit my mistakes...:lol:

[GregWeld]

I'm not getting new seats. I didn't even think about needing the hole for the jock strap.

Greg, I'm man enough to admit my mistakes...:lol:

Did you read my full post?

I've got more "used" (barely) parts on the shelf than I have on my cars! Each one of them a mistake... or -- as I tell some people -- "they've been upgraded". :lol:

[Vegas69]

Greg, we're in the same boat. I was talking about all these other liars on the site. :unibrow:

[GregWeld]

Greg, we're in the same boat. I was talking about all these other liars on the site. :unibrow:

Agree totally....

So many people just make excuses... or choose to just "live with it" whatever "it" is.


I often think - when reading or sharing on here - that "I just do hot rods" -- they don't have to be "proven" in a track or auto X situation etc.... and I think about how much stuff I've had to just re-do... and that's just for "street driven crap"! If I had to actually make it perform.... :wow: Well.... I just don't even want to think about it.

I've climbed behind the wheel of buddies hot rods/restorations/whatever... after they've just upgraded to big disc system ---- and thought I wasn't going to be able to stop AT ALL.... and they're happy as hell with this! Just the fact that they tossed the parts on there is all they can concern themselves with. Then I get out and they say "what do you think"? And of course, I tell them. Then we set about trying to solve what's wrong. But it's amazing how steep the learning curve is... and trying to make a track car "great" -- is even steeper! I give huge kudos to all those willing to tackle this challenge. :thumbsup:

[The WidowMaker]

if you dont want to run the 5th, the schroths dont need the 5th point like a traditional harness. watch the crash test videos and you'll see what i mean. they have a little extra trick up their sleeves. but, the videos do only show the car being crashed one way. id love to see some more to prove their idea.

[Matt@BOS]

Todd, I remembered to snap a couple shots of the cross bar harness attachments. Be warned though, my camera died, so these are some of those dreaded Blackberry pics.

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo103/69MSA/IMG00073-20110115-1549-1.jpg
http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo103/69MSA/IMG00072-20110115-1548.jpg

Matt

[Bow Tie 67]

If your gonna be fast, and do alot of track days with your car, you will find the limit and go off track and hopefully not into something hard.
I would try to make a 5th point work even if its over the front of the seat.

I agree with Jake, last year I ran a new harness and did not install the 5th belt. It was a mistake, as mentioned you can not cinch the belts tight around your hips.

Also, when you get into more road racing sheet happens, adrenaline rush :willy: can play with common sense at times. :cheers: Experience will teach you the limits of yourself and car, generally my fastest lap times are right after an incident.

Oh and personal preference is to wrap the belts around the shoulder bar, I think it looks cleaner and takes a bolt / tab / weld failure out of the equation.

[mdprovee]

Hey Todd,

I like the new tie hooks and would like to copy you, if that is ok.

Did you go to a dealer, or wrecking yard for them. What would I ask for, or what model are they from?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

[Vegas69]

I definitely haven't found the limit of my car and especially myself. I just don't have enough track time. I've road raced 3 times and may have 40 laps under my belt. Many of those at less than full speed. The car has been set up different everytime as well. The closest I've come to the limit is at RTTC last year. The practice session the day before let me learn the track and the lines. I was still pumping brakes before every corner and it was a horsepower track which let me run the 3rd fastest time behind Pozzi and Mathews. I was on R888's but there was more left... Once I switched to street tires and disconnected the rear sway bar, the car lost it's handle. The recent spring change on all four corners has brought the feel back to the car. I really think the R compounds and rear sway bar was covering up the deficiency in spring rate. Finding the limit at Spring Mountain is hazardous to my cars health. :unibrow: The desert out there is brutal. Ask Larry.... I need to find me a track with grassy meadows. I was planning a private lesson at Spring Mountain befor RTTC but I doubt I'll make it. Time is something I don't have alot of anymore. I just have to accept my fate as a weekend warrior along with most of the rest of the racers at these events. The car has felt fantastic on my two recent desert hail mary's. I've been working on rpm matching and hole shots. I'm looking forward to the events this year.

[Vegas69]

Mike, I don't mind. I can't figure out who I bought my hooks from. Go on ebay and type in BMW Tow Hook. You'll get a bunch of the same type of stuff. My configuration wouldn't work with 17" wheels. It would need to be more inboard.

[monza]

So.... when are you getting a new seat? lol

[Vegas69]

When I build a different car...:lol:

[Stuart Adams]

Todd, I think you car is great. No one is ever happy with performance. As soon as one level is reached it's on to the next one and so forth. Pro street is way worse, all they have is times and no real enjoyement outside of the little white lines.

[Vegas69]

Thanks Stuart. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any intention of heading down this path and starting from scratch anytime soon. I like my car and have few regrets. I still think it's capable of running with anyone with more tuning and a better driver. :lol:

[tones2SS]

I still think it's capable of running with anyone with more tuning and a better driver. :lol:
:D :lol:
That is a great car Todd. Rips up the auto-x and can still grab the groceries as well.:cheers:

[GregWeld]

and a better driver. :lol:



Oh gawd that's funny! And -- it's the best most cost effective change a guy could make to his car!!!!!!

You want a great time? Just have MARY POZZI flog the beast!


This, of course, goes for almost all of us (except guys like The Stig and Stielow) -- so I'm not picking on my buddy Todd here.... just sayin' --- it does take a bunch of skill to put these cars up top... and the more power etc a guy has -- I personally think - the more skill it takes to really be on top of it. Mary has proven this time and time again.... she can take a "lesser" car and wax everyone else. I'm not sure how the hell she does it -- but she does!
I wish I had talent like that... but I have neither the cars nor the talent.

[War]

Looks like you have your car pretty well sorted out now, was just curious on what you would have done differently. I just bought my steering u-joints and got the vibration reducing one. Wasn't sure if I needed them till you made a comment on that so that's why I ask.

[Vegas69]

Greg, you get wood on the ball once and a while. :unibrow: Getting the most out of a car with 666 hp is no easy feat. These recent desert hail marys remind me of just how insanely fast this car accelerates. My lack of road racing skills doesn't keep the engine in it's optimum RPM range. At the Optima Challenge I was leaving it in 3rd gear going onto the front and back straight. It needed to be in 2nd. That would've made a considerable difference. That's why I've been working on rpm matching. My car is really hard to heel toe. In fact, I've been practicing timing with just the gas and clutch. I've got to work onthe primary squirter a little yet. Autocross is another animal. I rarely shift out of 2nd gear.

Jason, if I knew then what I know now...:unibrow: Pretty sure I should be charging a consulting fee of some sort around here. :lol:

Floating rear end or a floating rear caliper(Good bye knock back) I've swapped axle and bearings, shimmed bearings, and switched master cylinders to make it so I don't pump brakes on the track. I still have knockback, it's just managable in all situations now.

4-7 cam swap (Pretty sure my harmonic vibration between 2650-2950 is induced by the extra crank stroke/the firing order change is supposed to smooth out conventional small/big blocks) Definitely an educated guess. The only nuisance now is in 5th in that range. The rubber passenger mount and steering knuckle almost eliminated it completely in 1-4 BOTH engines have had it.

Found Jason Pettis at Pettis Performance the first go round. Jason builds one hell of an engine and really gives a damn.

Rubber mount the drivetrain completely. I know a factory interlocking mount won't cut it on the drivers side. Adapt say a ZR1 motor mount.

Use more GM parts. They are reasonable priced and more servicable.

DSE quadralink- I've spent way to much time making this g bar work. (Moving shock mounts, springs, end links, shock travel)

T56 magnum- I'd slice the tunnel and make it fit along with running extremely small working angles. 1-2 degrees. I'll end up with a modified 600 or RS 600 eventually. The stock tko 600 is a workhorse but it shifts like a school bus. :D

Lighter weight- Aluminum hood, no sub box, elinimate the back seat, etc

Install a console

Seats that allow a 5 point harness

Clear bra from day 1

Tinted the factory glass-Aftermarket fits like shiat

Spent less money:rofl: :rofl: I coud've cut some corners here and there. I've got way to much money in this car. It's really easy to get sucked into this hobby and think you must have all the newest most expensive stuff. (Tail lights, hinges, fender braces, aluminum block:faint: ) At the end of the day, you don't need all the newest highest priced stuff to compete in these events or drive from point a to b.

With all that being said, I have no regrets. This is my first real rodeo building a car from scratch. I thought I was one hell of a mechanic before this project started. When I worked on cars for a living, I liked drivability the best because it came down to trouble shooting and finding a solution. Working the bugs out of the car and using it has really been the funnest part of the build for me.

[DFRESH]

Todd, you have paved the way for a lot of guys on here with all the information you have shared, especially me. That last post you made about what you would do different is one of the most valuable posts made to someone like me----you are one of the guys actually out there doing road courses, auto Xing and driving the car. The comments you make, the products you use, your write up of how they've worked (good or bad) really means something to me--and obviously they do to others as well. It ultimately helps guys like me to buy right the first time, thus enjoying the car more. Not sure anyone has ever said this to you, but thank you for sharing those experiences with us here as they have helped me immensly! My build plan for the car over the next 2 years has and will continue to change based on details you've listed here and conversations we have had. Thanks for the honest assesment and sharing your feedback here---it's that kind of information that really makes this site a great place.

Based on how much money i've saved thus far, and the fact that I love your "Payback" more than most, i'm thinking of renaming mine "Refund". :lol:

Doug

[mfain]

Todd,

You sound a little down, but you shouldn't be. You have built a great car and you have the raw talent to wheel it. Your willingness to share your ups and downs has been a great asset to the community. If I could offer you any advice (having personally been humbled by some of the best), you might want to consider an advanced driving school to refine your talents -- one little technique from someone who has seen it all can do wonders -- and a professional evaluation of your final suspension set-up (spring rates, shock set-up, roll centers, etc) might be beneficial (Dick Guldstrand comes to mind). You are on the verge of putting an "old school" hot rod on top of the tech-y LS crowd, and I'm rooting for you!

Pappy

[Sieg]

Based on how much money i've saved thus far, and the fact that I love your "Payback" more than most, i'm thinking of renaming mine "Refund". :lol:

Doug

Beneficiary wouldn't be bad either. :unibrow:

As a newbie around here, and not to take anything from Todd, Doug's complimentary comments could apply to numerous members threads and posts. I've had my car 22 years now and in the last few weeks of diligently reading Camaro build and mod threads I've picked up some very valuable insights that will save trial and error expense and deliver a respectable performance level.

I sincerely appreciate the caliber of Lateral G's members and the quantity and quality of their information. Thank you all, hopefully I'll be able to contribute as well.

PS - The good natured ribbing and humor is another benefit. :thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

Todd, you have paved the way for a lot of guys on here with all the information you have shared, especially me. That last post you made about what you would do different is one of the most valuable posts made to someone like me----you are one of the guys actually out there doing road courses, auto Xing and driving the car. The comments you make, the products you use, your write up of how they've worked (good or bad) really means something to me--and obviously they do to others as well. It ultimately helps guys like me to buy right the first time, thus enjoying the car more. Not sure anyone has ever said this to you, but thank you for sharing those experiences with us here as they have helped me immensly! My build plan for the car over the next 2 years has and will continue to change based on details you've listed here and conversations we have had. Thanks for the honest assesment and sharing your feedback here---it's that kind of information that really makes this site a great place.

Based on how much money i've saved thus far, and the fact that I love your "Payback" more than most, i'm thinking of renaming mine "Refund". :lol:

Doug

You get the award for taking the least and making the most out of it. I've learned a thing or two from you as well. :cheers: I'll call you soon....

Todd,

You sound a little down, but you shouldn't be. You have built a great car and you have the raw talent to wheel it. Your willingness to share your ups and downs has been a great asset to the community. If I could offer you any advice (having personally been humbled by some of the best), you might want to consider an advanced driving school to refine your talents -- one little technique from someone who has seen it all can do wonders -- and a professional evaluation of your final suspension set-up (spring rates, shock set-up, roll centers, etc) might be beneficial (Dick Guldstrand comes to mind). You are on the verge of putting an "old school" hot rod on top of the tech-y LS crowd, and I'm rooting for you!

Pappy

I was about to pull the trigger on a private lesson at Spring Mountain on the 4th last week. I'm just tired of spending money. I'd like to retire before I need diapers. :rofl: Appreciate all the kind words. Hurry up and get that car moving. We need to tear up the track together. Let me know when your vette is back in town, I've got to come over and check it out.

Beneficiary wouldn't be bad either. :unibrow:

As a newbie around here, and not to take anything from Todd, Doug's complimentary comments could apply to numerous members threads and posts. I've had my car 22 years now and in the last few weeks of diligently reading Camaro build and mod threads I've picked up some very valuable insights that will save trial and error expense and deliver a respectable performance level.

I sincerely appreciate the caliber of Lateral G's members and the quantity and quality of their information. Thank you all, hopefully I'll be able to contribute as well.

PS - The good natured ribbing and humor is aother benefit. :thumbsup:

You're right, I haven't learned everything from trial and error. Many have paved the way before me and are always willing to help. Guys like Frank, Jody, Greg, are always willing to help with tech.

[Flash68]

Todd - your thread and reviews are so detailed and technical sometimes I have no idea what is going on, and it gets me going on a path of researching and learning something new.. such as knockback when you started posting about it. Now I can say I know what that is and that I will be joining you in having it. :D

Good stuff man. Keep it rolling and see ya soon.



Based on how much money i've saved thus far, and the fact that I love your "Payback" more than most, i'm thinking of renaming mine "Refund". :lol:

Doug

Doug - how about "Free Lunch"? :thumbsup: :D

[chr2002ca]

Todd, you have paved the way for a lot of guys on here with all the information you have shared, especially me. That last post you made about what you would do different is one of the most valuable posts made to someone like me----you are one of the guys actually out there doing road courses, auto Xing and driving the car. The comments you make, the products you use, your write up of how they've worked (good or bad) really means something to me--and obviously they do to others as well. It ultimately helps guys like me to buy right the first time, thus enjoying the car more. Not sure anyone has ever said this to you, but thank you for sharing those experiences with us here as they have helped me immensly! My build plan for the car over the next 2 years has and will continue to change based on details you've listed here and conversations we have had. Thanks for the honest assesment and sharing your feedback here---it's that kind of information that really makes this site a great place.

Based on how much money i've saved thus far, and the fact that I love your "Payback" more than most, i'm thinking of renaming mine "Refund". :lol:

Doug

I was about to write the same thing but Doug beat me to it. Many many thanks for all the information and honesty you've shared with all of us via this thread Todd. It's REALLY appreciated. Now that I have a Mr. 12370850 sitting in my garage, I'm sure I'll be picking your brain a few more times starting next year. I plan to run fuel injection and a hydraulic cam that's a little more modest than yours. Would be happy with HP/TQ in the low 600's. Hopefully I might actually be able to share some info with you one day too, although you've always been ahead of my curve. My build won't start until next year though(because I'm tired of spending money too!). This year I gotta just run what I brung.

Look forward to sharing a beer with you after RTTC. :cheers:

[Vegas69]

Really, congrats man. I'd put it in the living room until you're ready to build that bad boy. :lol: The wife will never notice. I'm onboard, let's talk big blocks next month. :thumbsup:

[chr2002ca]

Really, congrats man. I'd put it in the living room until you're ready to build that bad boy. :lol: The wife will never notice. I'm onboard, let's talk big blocks next month. :thumbsup:

Yah, I'm thinking of putting a piece of glass over it and it'd be the best coffee table ever. Bottom side up so everyone can see those engraved main caps. :lol: Yep, next month we're talking big blocks. Sounds perfect. :thumbsup:

[Rybar]

I also wanted to thank you Todd, your reviews, actual performance on track and answers to my questions helped me decide on my new rear suspension setup. :thumbsup:

Don't worry anout the money, more can always be made. :unibrow:

[CarlC]

I love you man.

[Vegas69]

You're dead meat, Cassanova. :unibrow:

[skatinjay27]

hell i just wanna thank for being an ass and making funny post!lol

o yeah and for giving me an almost complete bb!!
thanks bud!!

[Vegas69]

hell i just wanna thank for being an ass and making funny post!lol

o yeah and for giving me an almost complete bb!!
thanks bud!!

Not sure which I've spent more money on in the last 4 years, cars or beer. :lol: I've had a ton of fun making wise cracks on this thread and about everyone elses on the board.

That short block wasn't free, I'm still waiting for you to show up and mow my lawn. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Seriously, the friends I've made(you guys) and all the bull****ting has been just as much fun as building the car. Let's get back to cars before our man cards are revoked. ;)

[cdushane]

Seriously, the friends I've made(you guys) and all the bull****ting has been just as much fun as building the car. Let's get back to cars before our man cards are revoked. ;)

Sounds like a good idea, I was starting to wonder about you guys :_paranoid

[tones2SS]

Not sure which I've spent more money on in the last 4 years, cars or beer. :lol:
Either way, sounds like a win-win to me!:thumbsup: :cheers:

[Sieg]

Let's get back to cars before our man cards are revoked. ;)
:unibrow:

Todd,

Regarding your chassis, suspension, and brakes, if you had to do it over would you make any changes?

Specifically:
-DSE front
-Shocks
-G-bar
-Moser 12 bolt
-Wilwood rotors & calipers

[Vegas69]

:unibrow:

Todd,

Regarding your chassis, suspension, and brakes, if you had to do it over would you make any changes?

Specifically:
-DSE frontLove me DSE frame
-ShocksHave dual adjustable up front, would like them out back
-G-barI've got it sorted out but the DSE quadralink would've saved me a bunch of headaches. The new g link doesn't look like it's foolproof either.
-Moser 12 boltRear end has been great, I'd go floater this time though.
-Wilwood rotors & calipersWilwood has been great to me. Dustin called me after the Optima Challenge to congratulate me. Brakes work well. No regrets. I was the crash test dummy for the retainer and brake knocback but I've moved on and they stood behind their product.


Answers in Red

[Sieg]

Answers in Red
Thank you! Your input is invaluable in developing my master plan.

[MWCC]

Well, I just spent my morning going through the last 15 or so pages of this thread. (I've been away from the site for a while). Man, all I can say Todd is congrats on an awesome build and for your tenacity with always looking to improve. We're never really satisfied are we? The car looks sick and its amazing what humble beginnings it had with a little 307 and a powerglide. Whenever I get off my a** and find the time, I need to get my but out there to see that car. Maybe you can take me for a ride that makes me change my shorts.:woot: Been a while since I had that much fun in a car.

Congrats again Todd on all you've accomplished.:thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

Appreciate it Nick...:thumbsup:

I'm headed down to El Toro to run RTTC next Thursday. I'm registered to run Saturday and Sunday. Last year was the best time I've ever had with the car so I'm looking forward to the racing and harrassing everybody. Before every major event I like to give the car a decent inspection. Top off all the fluids, lash the valves, etc... I did find that one of my o-ring fittings that screw into my fuel filter had worked loose. It wasn't leaking but a ticking time bomb. Glad I caught that. With all this power, things do tend to come loose on these cars. Locktite and lock washers are very important anywhere you can use them.


I also played around with shock settings. It's really impossible to duplicate race conditions on the street so it's really a guessing game. The front end has always been soft and I still feel it may be a little soft even after the spring change. The car feels in harmony. More so than ever before anyway. I have a feeling it may be a little on the loose side but I'll find out next week. :D

On my last desert hail mary, I hooked up a vacuum gauge and ran it into the cock pit. I was curious to see if my power valve was coming in a little early. On the cruise at highway/freeway speed it seemed perfect. Once I drove around town I realized it was a little pre mature. I swapped it out for a lower vacuum opening point that will keep it out of enrichment under what I would consider less than heavy loads. Basically tuning for gas mileage. :rolleyes: My dad was in town for my last hail mary and I let him drive a little while. He was pretty impressed and couldn't believe how nice it drove. My Dad doesn't get excited about much. After all the driving, I haven't bottomed out the rear shocks. They have better than a 1/4" left before bottoming out. RTTC will be the true test.

She's all polished up and ready for the rain. :willy: I took her out for one last blast tonight before the event. I didn't have time for a tripod or this photo may have turned out....

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/015.jpg

[waynieZ]

Todd the car looks great. Which camara do you use to take these picturers?

[96z28ss]

You must know people to be able to shut down a section of road so you can snap a few pics. :lol:

[GregWeld]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Love the photo Todd! You? Not so much. :rofl:

[Vegas69]

Wayne, I shoot with a Nikon D80. I had the tripod but didn't have time to use it.

It's a great road with little traffic. Unfortunately, the cops are known to play hid and seek. :unibrow:

[mdprovee]

Todd,

I like all the tunning you do with the car. I am trying to reread to learn from it myself. This year my goal is to learn the limit, and how to improve myself so I know how to improve the car. Thanks for all your insights, and I look forward to seeing your car next weekend.

[89 RS]

Great photo shot Todd. Looks awesome man.:thumbsup:

[Bow Tie 67]

Nice pic, what spring rates did you go with? Looking forward to seeing it in Cali.

[Vegas69]

I ended up choosing a 550 out front and 275 out back. See you next week!

[awr68]

Have a safe and VERY fun trip! You have deff worked hard to get the car ready! Time to enjoy it!! :cheers:

[Vegas69]

OK, I lied. I played a little today. I wasn't thrilled with the RPM matching capabilities of the carb. The primary squirter was lean and it was very difficult to make a a good downshift. I found this chart that graphs all the different accelerator pump cams. The carb came with the pink cam and I never changed it. I had played with squirters multiple times over the past couple years. I decided to step up to the blue cam which brings on the fuel much faster than the pink cam. It made sense with the rpm match scenario. It's a quick pop of the throttle on a down shift that likely doesn't see more than half throttle. It was pretty good cold but got a little fat as the engine came up to temp. I decided to drop the squirter from a 40 to a 35 and I can now rpm match pretty damn good.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/HarnessBar002.jpg

[6D9]

Nice! Cant wait to see how that beast does this year at RTTC. Not to many BBC cars Im sure. Hey Todd do you have any Vid's of you car at idle with the new motor??

[Vegas69]

My harness bar came in yesterday from Ridetech. The were nice enough to give me a $250 gift certificate for placing their stickers on my car during the Optima Challenge. After watching the road course video, I realized how often I had to reposition myself. Rodney and I cooked up a plan to make one of their Tiger Cage cross bars work for my application. Rodney sent out the clamps and I measured the center to center and they welded it up and sent it my way. I'm really impressed with the Tiger Cage materials and fitment. Rodney mentioned they may start offering these to the public and set up a jig for my bar.

The plan is to install it for events only with a set of 5 point Simpson harnesses.(I need to order tomorrow) Two bolts and a little love from a plastic hammer is all it takes to install and remove the bar. I switch back and forth between two seat settings on the street and the farthest back postion I like isn't available with the harness bar. I plan to lay the lap belts in the rear floor board and bolt them into the same position as my current 3 point. Some of you are probably wondering why the bar is so high. Your belts should be close to 90 when belted in the car. Opinions vary but they should be mounted between 10 degrees down and slighly above 90. Sure I could've mounted them lower to make them less of an eye sore but I'm always function over form.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/HarnessBar024.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/HarnessBar019.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/HarnessBar017.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/HarnessBar010.jpg

[GregWeld]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Looks great Todd!!

[Sieg]

Very nice Todd, your car is a benchmark. :thumbsup:

What carb are you using?

[Vegas69]

It's an 850HO from AED Performance. I've had to change pretty much everything. :D I enjoy the tweaking and tuning aspect. I still want to chassis dyno the car this year.

Ron, I can't believe it but I don't have a decent idle video. I use an elph for video and the sound sucks.

[Sieg]

..........and I want to see those dyno charts! :unibrow:

Tuning carbs is good sport, I used to run side draft Weber's on a car I auto-X'd and they were fun even though they changed wth the barometer.

Have a 650 Speed Demon on my '69 with BG's mistake baseplate, I'm changing to something, possibly a 770 Avenger or ?

[Vegas69]

Me too.. I chassis dynoed the previous engine and it made 491hp/497 ftlbs. It should make in the +or- 550 rwhp/rwtq range if the tune is dead nuts. That is my primary reason for wanting to chassis dyno.

When I drove the car with the vacuum gauge, I found out that I had 2-2.5 inches of vacuum at wot. I almost pulled the trigger on a Pro Systems HP 1000 due to all the positive feedback. At the end of the day, I decided not to chance starting over from scratch on a tune. Since then I found that my throttle cable had stretched and I was getting 15/16th throttle. I'd love to go injected but that ain't happening. :willy:

[Sieg]

550 out back should be adequate. :D

Fast EZ EFI looks tempting but efi is getting better and less expensive, I'll be an observer a little longer. :yes:

[Vegas69]

The 600hp bridge takes out quite a few economical options. For under 600hp, EZ Efi seems like a great option.

[killerdiller]

WOW..thanks, I need the motivation

[g356gear]

The 600hp bridge takes out quite a few economical options. For under 600hp, EZ Efi seems like a great option.

It's good for 600hp + now too. :thumbsup:

Dual Quad Upgrade......

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FS&Product_Code=304155&Category_Code=EFISystemEZIEFIKits

[tones2SS]

Great car Todd.
Very cool of Ridetech to hook it up for you.

[skatinjay27]

i come on man you work hard enough...go ahead and splurge the $$$ on a precision metal craft intake and all the other stuff you'll need... what another 5-6 k on that motor!lol

[Vegas69]

It ain't happening....:D

[g356gear]

Since then I found that my throttle cable had stretched and I was getting 15/16th throttle.

Gee.....how could that possibly happen....:thumbsup:

[Sieg]

Gee.....how could that possibly happen....:thumbsup:Not that he ever pushes the envelope with the car. :cool: When adjusting the throttle cable he might want to factor adrenaline induced floorboard flex. :D

[Flash68]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/HarnessBar019.jpg


Car looks tits Todd. Ready to go. Yours are the Modo pedals, correct?

[awr68]

Yours are the Modo pedals, correct?

Sparco I believe.......

[Sieg]

Sparco I believe.......
Looks like their Grip series: http://www.sparcousa.com/ptuning_pedals.asp?id=351

Todd - Are you satisfied with their performance?

[Vegas69]

I don't recall my foot ever slipping off a pedal in all my miles and racing. I did have two of the rubber pads pop out but they have stayed put every since.

I like to set the throttle so the pedal arm bottoms out on the floor board INSTEAD of putting all the strain of my right foot and adrenaline on the throttle cable and throttle shaft. It's tricky getting it right but I feel it should be more reliable.

[hifi875]

tha dash is killer, makes me want to get rid of my covans/ultalite setup really bad.

[Sieg]

I don't recall my foot ever slipping off a pedal in all my miles and racing. I did have two of the rubber pads pop out but they have stayed put every since.

I like to set the throttle so the pedal arm bottoms out on the floor board INSTEAD of putting all the strain of my right foot and adrenaline on the throttle cable and throttle shaft. It's tricky getting it right but I feel it should be more reliable.Wouldn't fabricating an adjustable throttle stop on the floor/firewall pan be possible? Then you'd have throttle shaft and pedal travel adjustments.

I think we'd be surprise with actual telemetry data for psi load on the throttle pedal stop recorded during the heat of battle. :D

[Vegas69]

I've thought about that but don't need it. The pedal arm bottoms out on the firewall itself. I wouldn't mind a higher pedal for racing but not for street cruising. My pedal arm is splined for large adjustments and the small adjustments can be made at the throttle bracket housing and connection at the carb.

[tones2SS]

Just an awesome car overall. That car can go grab some beers on a weekend run and rip up the auto-x on another weekend. Very nice Todd.:yes: :thumbsup: