1969 Torino [Archive] - Page 6

Ron Sutton

07-15-2013, 11:28 AM

Ron, one more question on KPI/SAI: is the angle relative to ground plane? In other words, does the KPI change when static camber is changed?
I "believe" front end alignment machines show it relative to the ground, which would change with camber. But that's not how we do it, nor how we see it in racing.

Or is it a hard angle directly from the manufacturing geometry of the spindle?
Correct, it is a hard angle that does not change, regardless of camber. It is the angle difference from the wheel hub axis compared to the centerline of both ball joints.

So with a particular spindle, the KPI angle would always be the same for that spindle?
Yes, the KPI stays the same on a spindle, unless you physically modify it.

Modifying the KPI of a spindle is not common for street cars. But it can & has been done with welding up the ball joint holes & re-milling them in a different location. Some racers "cheat" this way in classes where "stock spindles" are required by rules.

Also, there are racing spindles with a removable slug in the top, for the upper ball joint. Different slugs move the upper ball joint location in towards the wheel or out away from the wheel, effectively changing the KPI. They also have removable steering arms where the lower ball joint mounts. To keep the ball joint alignment true to each other, this lower arm is changed too.

I have run this type of adjustable KPI spindle, but don't prefer it. It's fine for testing stuff. But I know what I'm looking for when I order custom spindles & have designed the whole package to work together. There is no need to change it later.

Just wondering as I am trying to visualize all this. I like your analogy of the wheel turning 90 degrees, it's easier to see whats happening.
Cool. I am very visual. So I need to see or at least visualize things working to understand them. I also found using BIG examples is an easier way to learn. Once you're clear on a concept ... you can always imagine the concept to a lesser degree.

What an awesome discussion, thank you.
You're welcome.

Oh, more Torino pics Rob!

I don't think you're jacking the thread. Rob indicated he wants us to have these discussions. (I asked him)

If someone wants to ask specific questions about a different car, then we should start a new thread.

.

Ron Sutton

07-15-2013, 11:32 AM

Ron

It is enlightening to see the full discussion of KPI/SAI & caster and it's relationship to camber laid out in an easy to digest discussion.:thumbsup:

I'm tempted to cut and paste your roll center discussion on here also but maybe I should leave that to you.

Rob that's a good idea.

I'll add in the roll center information after we have fully discussed this topic first.

Flash68

07-15-2013, 01:20 PM

Ron,

Since you've entered Rob's world I think some people might actually be scared of this big boned girl. :peepwall:

:thumbsup:

Ron Sutton

07-15-2013, 01:29 PM

Ron,

Since you've entered Rob's world I think some people might actually be scared of this big boned girl. :peepwall:

:thumbsup:

Oh ... I think he was "committed" to making it a mean track car regardless. Maybe I can help him get it there quicker.

.

intocarss

07-15-2013, 02:12 PM

Ron,

Since you've entered Rob's world I think some people might actually be scared of this big boned girl. :peepwall:

:thumbsup: Fords do need all the help they can get :snapout: :secret:

Oh ... I think he was "committed" to making it a mean track car regardless. Maybe I can help him get it there quicker.

. Again...Fords do need all the help they can get AND CLASS IS IN SESSION WITH Mr RON :y0!:

HI ROB!!!!!!! :underchair:

Ron Sutton

07-15-2013, 02:26 PM

Fords do need all the help they can get :snapout: :secret:

Again...Fords do need all the help they can get AND CLASS IS IN SESSION WITH Mr RON :y0!:

HI ROB!!!!!!! :underchair:

You're funny.

I really enjoy & relate to your signature line ...
"And people who don't know the game ask me why we race. I always reply that it has nothing to do with the racing, what we do is a people thing. The cars are just what we use to measure skills from one day to the next".

It reminds me of when Neil Bonnet was reflecting on his career after he came back from a bad crash & said, "I used to think I was racing against all these people ... until I got perspective & realized I was racing WITH all these people. It's the relationships I value most."

That struck a cord for me after I broke my back in a high speed Kart wreck in 1991 at Sears Point & has been one of my guiding principles since. I want to win ... and I'll work as hard as necessary until I do ... but I value enjoyable relationships more. When I look back on all my racing exploits, it's the great people & the good times I remember & enjoy most.

.

intocarss

07-15-2013, 02:40 PM

You're funny.

I really enjoy & relate to your signature line ...
"And people who don't know the game ask me why we race. I always reply that it has nothing to do with the racing, what we do is a people thing. The cars are just what we use to measure skills from one day to the next".

It reminds me of when Neil Bonnet was reflecting on his career after he came back from a bad crash & said, "I used to think I was racing against all these people ... until I got perspective & realized I was racing WITH all these people. It's the relationships I value most."

That struck a cord for me after I broke my back in a high speed Kart wreck in 1991 at Sears Point & has been one of my guiding principles since. I want to win ... and I'll work as hard as necessary until I do ... but I value enjoyable relationships more. When I look back on all my racing exploits, it's the great people & the good times I remember & enjoy most.

. 100% agree'd!! There is nothing like the racing family/car community (yes Sieg motorcycles too). When I'm inside those race track gates... the rest of the world doesn't exist.. It's in your blood or it's NOT :patriot: Neil was one of my favorites, And sorry you broke your back.

carbuff

07-15-2013, 07:28 PM

I am assuming you (and I) have the same rack that Jake used (and still is being used by Vinny in AIX) ?

I believe that to be true. And if I remember correctly, it's the Ford rack from the 88-94 Mustang. One of us would have to confirm that with Jake, although I probably have it in an old email somewhere. :)

Ah, a quick search of my email turned this up:

"its late 80's through mid 90's ford rack"

So I was close. :)

65_LS1_T56

07-15-2013, 07:51 PM

I don't think you're jacking the thread. Rob indicated he wants us to have these discussions. (I asked him)

If someone wants to ask specific questions about a different car, then we should start a new thread.

.

:thankyou: again for such a detailed answer on KPI. Can't wait for roll center lessons :popcorn2:

FETorino

07-15-2013, 10:39 PM

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/8c7/f25/624/resized/high-expectations-asian-father-meme-generator-harro-y-u-jack-thread-d0d8ee.jpg

Me so sorry :lol:

I don't think you're jacking the thread. Rob indicated he wants us to have these discussions. (I asked him)

If someone wants to ask specific questions about a different car, then we should start a new thread.

.

It's all part of the discussion on tuning a car. In this case it applies to my car so no hijack on your part.

Ron,

Since you've entered Rob's world I think some people might actually be scared of this big boned girl. :peepwall:

:thumbsup:

By "some people" I would think you mean a certain SB2 owner. :mock:

Fords do need all the help they can get :snapout: :secret:

Again...Fords do need all the help they can get AND CLASS IS IN SESSION WITH Mr RON :y0!:

HI ROB!!!!!!! :underchair:

JerDog

You know you have a soft spot in that Bowtie heart for my Ford. :snapout: Glad to see you back from your vacation from my thread.:welcome3:

All this suspension discussion is just an attempt to tame the Tunnelport.

The man can build one of the baddest Fords out there But CAN"T get a decent camera to show it off :headscratch:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/tpetty_zps757fba27.jpg
Click Below

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/th_GOPR0564-1.jpg (http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/GOPR0564-1.mp4)[/QUOTE]

Flash68

07-15-2013, 10:49 PM

Oh ... I think he was "committed" to making it a mean track car regardless. Maybe I can help him get it there quicker.

.

I am purrty sure you can and you will!

I believe that to be true. And if I remember correctly, it's the Ford rack from the 88-94 Mustang. One of us would have to confirm that with Jake, although I probably have it in an old email somewhere. :)

Ah, a quick search of my email turned this up:

"its late 80's through mid 90's ford rack"

So I was close. :)

Um. I'd say you nailed it. :D

By "some people" I would think you mean a certain SB2 owner. :mock:

I might be on that list now.... it's all Norcal Ron's fault.... :buttkick:

Flash68

07-15-2013, 10:57 PM

Oh.. I almost forgot. :bigun2:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/BRC_28_zps6a533df1.jpg

intocarss

07-16-2013, 02:58 AM

JerDog

You know you have a soft spot in that Bowtie heart for my Ford. :snapout: Glad to see you back from your vacation from my thread.:welcome3:

All this suspension discussion is just an attempt to tame the Tunnelport.

Glad to be back. I don't think you can tame the beastport. And BTW with Mr Ron helping, you've lost your "amateur status" :hello:

Wissing72

07-16-2013, 07:28 AM

Click Below

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/th_GOPR0564-1.jpg (http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/GOPR0564-1.mp4)
Nice video sounds good.

Oh.. I almost forgot. :bigun2:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/BRC_28_zps6a533df1.jpg
:stirthepot: :confused59:
I don't think you can tame the beastport. And BTW with Mr Ron helping, you've lost your "amateur status" :hello:
:catfight: I agree.

intocarss

07-16-2013, 09:26 AM

[QUOTE=Flash68;493499] Oh.. I almost forgot. :bigun2:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/real3/BRC_28_zps932328b9.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/real3/media/BRC_28_zps932328b9.jpg.html)

BMF BMF BMF :king:

Matt@BOS

07-16-2013, 09:58 AM

fleetus macmullitz

07-16-2013, 10:21 AM

[quote=Flash68;493499] Oh.. I almost forgot. :bigun2:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/real3/BRC_28_zps932328b9.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/real3/media/BRC_28_zps932328b9.jpg.html)

BMF BMF BMF :king:

:lol:

Nice one Jerdog. :D

That being said, sure are a lot of Shivee guys paying attention to yer FErd Rob.

I come from a mixed family (owned a bunch of FErds/GM's) so I don't care who beats whose brains out. :hitaxeonthehead:

:lol:

Flash68

07-16-2013, 10:41 AM

[QUOTE=intocarss;493563]

BMF needs Ford stripes over the roof.

Fact!

And Dodge paint. :sieg:

Rob, so are you gonna redo your wheels and run something like a 285 on a 13 inch wide wheel? :wacko:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/imagesqtbnANd9GcQGqI6gpMD5bjilJ573f_zps9a88ac6e.jp g

Ron Sutton

07-16-2013, 12:01 PM

I figured before we move on to discuss Roll Centers, we should wrap up our conversation on steering geometry.

All of us know that each front suspension geometry setting affects the overall picture ... and to a degree ... each other. As a race car Designer & Crew Chief, I can't look at just one individual setting. I have to look at the spindle KPI/SAI, Caster, Caster Gain/Loss, Camber, Camber Gain/Loss as a team ... a team of geometry devices that I need to work together in harmony to improve how the tires contact the road dynamically.

Having done this for years, designing, building, tuning & racing a lot of cars, in just about every type of racing, has given me some firsthand insight into how all these things work. So now it's a little easier & quicker for me to "get a set-up there" to the sweet spot. I have a process that gets me there quickest ... with the least back-n-forth.

First … some guidelines:
Zero scrub radius with long control arms & deep backspaced wheels is optimum, but many race series rules prevent us from achieving this, with rules on the LCA. If the rules allow, we're running long control arms & a low KPI spindle on deep backspaced wheels & achieving low to zero scrub radius.

But when the rules restricting our LCA choices prevent us getting the ball joints "out there" … making us choose between track width & scrub radius … we are “usually” going with wheels with less backspacing to achieve the maximum track width allowed by rules … then running higher KPI spindles to reduce the scrub radius as much as we can.

I've had people ask me why don't we give up track width to achieve a lower or zero scrub radius ... but in the big picture ... track width trumps scrub radius, up to a point. Everything has its limits & there are exceptions for everything. Tight AutoX courses sometimes favor narrower cars with narrower track widths. But most anything faster than that favors a wider track width. When you have no rules or limitations, you making everything optimum. When rules prevent that, you’re shooting for the best overall compromise.

My process:

A. I have to work out the Spindle KPI/SAI with the length of the A-arms, tire width & wheel backspacing ... to end up with maximum track width & a desirable scrub radius.

B. Once I know the spindle KPI/SAI … that guides me on how much caster I need to build in to achieve a KPI/Caster Split favoring the caster.

C. I need to figure out if we want caster gain* … and if so, how much … or for the caster to stay the same, as the front suspension compresses fully under braking & turning (called "Dive"). I have seen poorly set-up cars with caster loss in their set-up, but it is not desirable.

D. If I can get the caster I want ... statically and/or with gain ... so the KPI/Caster Split favors the caster ... I can run less total Camber, which is the goal. If I can NOT get the the KPI/Caster Split favoring the caster … we will need more total camber. Once I know how much total camber I need for that combo, I work out how much of it is going to be static camber & how much is going to be camber gain. I like to get 50%-60% of the total camber desired … through camber gain.**

E. If I can get the camber gain I want ... I can run less static Camber, which is the goal. We're always going to run some static negative camber … because it improves initial turn-in response***. Depending on the application, I like -0.75 up to -2.0 … again, as long as I can get the camber gain AND the KPI/Caster Split favoring the caster. But if I can not … I will need more static camber.**

F. How we get the camber gain, & how much, affects the car's static & dynamic roll center ... so they have to work as a team too.

All of this is to optimize both front tires’ contact patch with the asphalt ... In the car's dynamic states when it's driven HARD ... meaning turning, braking, rolling, unwinding & accelerating to the limits of the car, tires & driver ... sometimes beyond. :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Caster gain is achieved when the front A-arm geometry is set for anti-dive. Zero caster loss or gain is achieved with zero anti-dive. Caster loss is achieved when the front A-arm geometry is set for the opposite of anti-dive … called “pro-dive.”

** The more static camber you have to run to optimize the outside tire, the more you’re hurting the inside tire. I like to get 50%-60% of the total camber desired … through camber gain. Here is why: The suspension on the inside of the corner is not compressed as far as the suspension on the outside corner. So effectively … the inside tire is not getting as much negative camber gain to fight & overcome.

*** Don’t get greedy with static camber. Yes it improves initial turn-in steering response, which is good. But two things:
1. Camber helps the outside tire & hurts the inside tire. If you run too much static camber, you can’t get the inside tire to work optimum.
2. There are a LOT of other things that help turn-in response … so use some of those … & don’t get greedy with static camber.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You know how people say a little information can be dangerous? This is one of those times.

If your car has a large-ish scrub radius … you have to be careful with how much caster you can put in the car … because caster combined with a high scrub radius creates a “jacking effect” when you turn the wheels. Dynamically, this jacking effect “de-wedges” the car … loading the inside front & outside rear tires more … while also unloading the inside rear tire & increasing the degree the car diagonally rocks & loads the outside front tire.

All of this helps the car to turn better. But go too far … and the car will get loose on entry. This is where track tuning comes into play. If you have a large-ish scrub radius … sneek up on the caster you put in the car … until you get the car “free” on entry … then reduce the caster a tick … or tune something else to allow you to keep that amount of caster, so the car turns well in the middle. But don’t keep a set-up that makes the rear step out on corner entry.

Make sense?

.

intocarss

07-16-2013, 12:54 PM

[QUOTE=intocarss;493563]

BMF needs Ford stripes over the roof. Sorry i don't like Ford or Dodge roof stripes..IT'S A FRICKEN CHEBY!!!:snapout: :warning:

FETorino

07-16-2013, 06:36 PM

Rob, so are you gonna redo your wheels and run something like a 285 on a 13 inch wide wheel? :wacko:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/imagesqtbnANd9GcQGqI6gpMD5bjilJ573f_zps9a88ac6e.jp g

DG I sent you that picture in confidence.:secret:

I figured before we move on to discuss Roll Centers, we should wrap up our conversation on steering geometry.

If your car has a large-ish scrub radius … you have to be careful with how much caster you can put in the car … because caster combined with a high scrub radius creates a “jacking effect” when you turn the wheels. Dynamically, this jacking effect “de-wedges” the car … loading the inside front & outside rear tires more … while also unloading the inside rear tire & increasing the degree the car diagonally rocks & loads the outside front tire.

All of this helps the car to turn better. But go too far … and the car will get loose on entry. This is where track tuning comes into play. If you have a large-ish scrub radius … sneek up on the caster you put in the car … until you get the car “free” on entry … then reduce the caster a tick … or tune something else to allow you to keep that amount of caster, so the car turns well in the middle. But don’t keep a set-up that makes the rear step out on corner entry.

Make sense?

.

Ron

What would you consider Large-ish scrub radius in the case of these 275-315 range of tires?

I have heard that an inch or under can be thought of as zero.

Maybe a little more detail on scrub would be good. :idea:

I was having a conversation stating there is a nominal effect on scrub due to height differences in tires. That difference in scrub between a 30 and 35 series tire of the same section width on the same wheel would be pretty minimal and in real world probably insignificant. But with all things it is best not to assume and really dig into what amount of scrub becomes noticeable or detrimental.:headscratch:

:cheers:

Track Junky

07-16-2013, 06:45 PM

Hey mods....How about moving this great suspension technology stuff over to where it might be more appropriate for others to ask questions about their own cars? :idea:

Sieg

07-16-2013, 06:51 PM

Hey mods....How about moving this great suspension technology stuff over to where it might be more appropriate for others to ask questions about their own cars? :idea:
Seriously? This thread finally has substance! :sieg:

Track Junky

07-16-2013, 06:54 PM

Seriously? This thread finally has substance! :sieg:

No kidding....maybe we should transfer it over to the Bad Funny Finger thread :lol:

FETorino

07-16-2013, 06:59 PM

Hey mods....How about moving this great suspension technology stuff over to where it might be more appropriate for others to ask questions about their own cars? :idea:

Now that gentlemen, is how you HiJack a thread.:trophy-1302:

intocarss

07-16-2013, 07:01 PM

No kidding....maybe we should transfer it over to the Bad Funny Finger thread :lol: YOU OWE ME 10 SCREENS!!!!!

Sieg

07-16-2013, 07:03 PM

No kidding....maybe we should transfer it over to the Bad Invisible Finger thread :lol:
Fixed!

Now that gentlemen is how you HiJack a thread.:trophy-1302:
Good point! :lol:

Track Junky

07-16-2013, 07:08 PM

Now that gentlemen is how you HiJack a thread.:trophy-1302:

Your welcome. Just dont forget who planted the seed :hello:

fleetus macmullitz

07-16-2013, 07:13 PM

If any mod moves this thread it should be Flash.

And it should be done in :secret:...

:lol:

Track Junky

07-16-2013, 07:26 PM

If any mod moves this thread it should be Flash.

And it should be done in :secret:...

:lol:

Not sure that would be appropriate....Rob might end up calling Daves thread Bad Middle Finger :catfight:

intocarss

07-16-2013, 07:59 PM

Not sure that would be appropriate....Rob might end up calling Daves thread Bad up yours Finger :catfight:

FIXED

FETorino

07-16-2013, 09:55 PM

Hey mods....How about moving this great suspension technology stuff over to where it might be more appropriate for others to ask questions about their own cars? :idea:

Don't be shy Tracky. :headscratch: Or are you a :secret:agent for BMF sent to derail the Torino:lol:

I don't think you're jacking the thread. Rob indicated he wants us to have these discussions. (I asked him)

If someone wants to ask specific questions about a different car, then we should start a new thread.

.

:cheers:

Ron Sutton

07-16-2013, 10:07 PM

Hey Rob,

Ron

What would you consider Large-ish scrub radius in the case of these 275-315 range of tires?

I have heard that an inch or under can be thought of as zero.

Maybe a little more detail on scrub would be good. :idea:
I never created a descriptive verbal scale ... until now.

In my experience & by my personal scale ...
0-1/4" = Zero
1/4"-1" = Very Low
1-2" = Low
2-3" = Moderate
3-5" = High
5-7" = Very High
7" + = Extreme

* But this relative to the situation. When we designed a new Modified chassis that dropped the Scrub Radius from over 7" to under 5" ... we thought of that as "low scrub radius ... for the NASCAR Modified class we raced in on the West Coast. :excited:

So, with this new "descriptive verbal scale" ... I need to restate my advice with a slight wording change.

If your PT car has a scrub radius "Moderate or higher" … you need to be careful with how much caster you can put in the car … because caster combined with a high scrub radius creates a “jacking effect” when you turn the wheels. Dynamically, this jacking effect “de-wedges” the car … loading the inside front & outside rear tires more … while also unloading the inside rear tire & increasing the degree the car diagonally rocks & loads the outside front tire.

All of this helps the car to turn better. But go too far … and the car will get loose on entry. This is where track tuning comes into play. If you have a large-ish scrub radius … sneek up on the caster you put in the car … until you get the car “free” on entry … then reduce the caster a tick … or tune something else to allow you to keep that amount of caster, so the car turns well in the middle. But don’t keep a set-up that makes the rear step out on corner entry.

I was having a conversation stating there is a nominal effect on scrub due to height differences in tires. That difference in scrub between a 30 and 35 series tire of the same section width on the same wheel would be pretty minimal and in real world probably insignificant. But with all things it is best not to assume and really dig into what amount of scrub becomes noticeable or detrimental.:headscratch:

:cheers:

I agree with this statement: That difference in scrub between a 30 and 35 series tire of the same section width on the same wheel would be pretty minimal and in real world probably insignificant.

I have had talented race drivers we developed to the nth degree ... with amazing feel & feedback ... that can tell you if you changed the tire 1/4 pound of air pressure, .030" of bump stop shim, which suspension corner stopped traveling 1/16" earlier than the other or if there was extra clearance in your ring & pinion gap ... and that's not even a tiny bit exaggerated. :thumbsup:

A Crew Chief/Tuner can have a lot of confidence in those situations. These particular drivers & I won a lot of races together. :gitrdun:

And on the other hand ... I've seen drivers that couldn't tell you if they hit a pothole or not. So I think "noticeable" is also relative. :confused18:

.

Matt@BOS

07-16-2013, 10:22 PM

[B]Hey Rob,

... I've seen drivers that couldn't tell you if they hit a pothole or not. So I think "noticeable" is also relative. :confused18:

.

Rob is probably going to have to worry more about swells than pot holes. Although if he does take his boat out on the road, I'd hate to be in it when he hits a pot hole with his hellaflush rims.

FETorino

07-16-2013, 10:28 PM

Rob is probably going to have to worry more about swells than pot holes. Although if he does take his boat out on the road, I'd hate to be in it when he hits a pot hole with his hellaflush rims.

Matt your still mad about that beer aren't you? :twak: I knew the pot holes are what led you to the Rubicon set up :lmao:

So is the Mustang going to be track only?

:cheers:

Matt@BOS

07-16-2013, 10:41 PM

Hey Rob,

I agree with this statement: That difference in scrub between a 30 and 35 series tire of the same section width on the same wheel would be pretty minimal and in real world probably insignificant.

I have had talented race drivers we developed to the nth degree ... with amazing feel & feedback ... that can tell you if you changed the tire 1/4 pound of air pressure, .030" of bump stop shim, which suspension corner stopped traveling 1/16" earlier than the other or if there was extra clearance in your ring & pinion gap. :thumbsup:

A Crew Chief/Tuner can have a lot of confidence in those situations. These particular drivers & I won a lot of races together. :gitrdun:

And on the other hand ... I've seen drivers that couldn't tell you if they hit a pothole or not. So I think "noticeable" is also relative. :confused18:

.

Matt your still mad about that beer aren't you? :twak: I knew the pot holes are what led you to the Rubicon set up :lmao:

So is the Mustang going to be track only?

:cheers:

Couldn't possibly be mad about the beer. DG isn't the only beer snob around here, although he might be the beer snob captain around these parts. Makes sense really. Our cars are kind of the automotive equivalents of beer tastes on champaign budgets.

Track Junky

07-17-2013, 07:03 AM

Don't be shy Tracky. :headscratch: Or are you a :secret:agent for BMF sent to derail the Torino:lol:

:cheers:

:secret: :flashie: :secret: Thats absurd. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about :whistling:

:cheers:

FETorino

07-17-2013, 06:46 PM

:y0!:

Ron

Since the exercise is maximizing tire grip and we have been speaking of that exercise with a 200tw DOT tire.

If I tune the suspension to obtain the best balance possible with the DOT 200tw tires but then switch to a sticky compound tire such as a Hoosier R compound in the same proportional stagger does that warrant more spring, ARB and associated shock dampening?

Since the increased grip of the tires would allow for higher cornering speeds the forces working on the suspension should increase. I would think this means at a minimum more bar would be needed.:headscratch:

I would think you could use a similar spring package to control the pitch of the cars weight which is static but add more bar to deal with the added force from the increased cornering load.

Since I only really care a bout the 200tw tires for the RTTC or Goodguys type events a Hoosier R compound may actually be what I really tune for.:drive:

I'd like to understand the logic behind a slick vs street tire tune better. I'm sure others won't mind reading that little diddy either.:thankyou:

:cheers:

Sorry Gae :theresa:

Track Junky

07-17-2013, 07:52 PM

Sorry Gae :theresa:

:lol: Your killin' me dude :lol:

Dont mind me...Carry on......Please :popcorn2:

Sieg

07-17-2013, 09:03 PM

The way this thread is going hopefully Ron's suspension spreadsheets have factoring to compensate for driver reaction times. :popcorn2:

Ron Sutton

07-17-2013, 09:03 PM

Hi Rob,

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron

Since the exercise is maximizing tire grip and we have been speaking of that exercise with a 200tw DOT tire.

If I tune the suspension to obtain the best balance possible with the DOT 200tw tires but then switch to a sticky compound tire such as a Hoosier R compound in the same proportional stagger does that warrant more spring, ARB and associated shock dampening?
Yes. Of course someone can simply switch tires & run the car to its limits. But if the car if going to be optimized with 200TW tires ... and also with Hoosier R6 race slicks ... the optimum set-up will be different.

Since the increased grip of the tires would allow for higher cornering speeds the forces working on the suspension should increase. I would think this means at a minimum more bar would be needed.:headscratch:
You will want to make changes in 4 areas. All requiring a small degree of work, but nothing complex. I'll outline it below.

I would think you could use a similar spring package to control the pitch of the cars weight which is static but add more bar to deal with the added force from the increased cornering load.
Sway bars are not enough. Because as you increase the traction of the tires, the car will experience a higher degree of weight transfer under braking & acceleration.

Since I only really care a bout the 200tw tires for the RTTC or Goodguys type events a Hoosier R compound may actually be what I really tune for.:drive:

I'd like to understand the logic behind a slick vs street tire tune better. I'm sure others won't mind reading that little diddy either.:thankyou:

Sure. Here goes ...

Assuming, we start with DOT tires of 200TW ... and dialed the suspension in thoroughly until we declared it was "optimum" & we could "find no more" ... then we put on Hoosier R6 racing slicks of similar height, width, sidewall size & wheel backspacing to maintain the same front & rear track widths ... here is what we would experience with no suspension changes:

1. On corner entry braking, the front suspension will compress quicker & farther & the rear suspension will rise quicker & farther. The car will experience more weight transfer from rear to front ... and may, or may not, lock up the rear tires easier, depending on several suspension factors. The car will have excessive pitch angle, excessive loading of front tires & excessive unloading of rear tires.

2. On corner entry "turn-in" ... while still braking ... the car will react/respond quicker, turning the front end of the car into the corner quicker. The car will experience more weight transfer from inside to the outside. Body/chassis roll will increase & be excessive. The biggest amount of weight transfer increase will be from the inside rear tire to the outside front tire. The tires on the inside of the corner will be underworked & the tires on the outside of the corner will be overworked ... the front more so than the rear. The car will lose traction on the inside rear tire & become loose ... unless the driver adjusts by braking softer & earlier during "1".

3a. If the driver does not adapt ... and the car gets loose on corner entry ... one of two things will happen (neither good). Either the driver "corrects" for the skid ... by turning the steering into it ... which adds cross weight & grip. At the point the car "catches" regaining grip ... the car angle & steering angle are F#%&*@ ... so after the car "catches" it will push like a dump truck through the middle of the corner ... and probably snap loose on exit. Or, if the driver doesn't correct the steering, the car will simply spin out.

3b. So ... assuming the Driver adjusts to brake softer & earlier keeping the handling neutral on corner entry ... when the steering is "set" & on its arc for the middle of the corner ... and the driver releases the brakes ... the car will experience slightly more roll angle, which was already excessive, due to the increased grip on the slicks . What happens next is dependent on the rebound valving of the front shocks . If there is not enough, the front will rise & the rear will settle too early*, causing the inside rear tire to reengage too early* & the inside front tire to become unloaded too early* ... leading to a mid-corner push condition.

Additional shock "low speed" rebound valving will help this situation by delaying the transfer*, as will the other tuning changes I'll outline. While on track, the driver could help this situation by lengthening their braking zone. Meaning get off the brakes later ... and use slightly less braking pressure, to arrive at the same corner speed. Do not confuse this with trail braking.

4. When it's time to pick up the throttle ... mid-corner, while the car is still turning ... the car will transition weight transfer to the rear ... and increase the car's roll angle, just until the driver starts unwinding the steering wheel. This may, or may, not lead to a push condition on cornering under throttle, depending on the timing* of weight transfer from the outside front tire to the outside rear tire. If the WT happens too spoon, it will push.

5. Soon after the driver starts to roll on the throttle, they start to unwind the steering wheel progressively. This will shift the transfer weight ... just as progressively from rearward & outward to simply rearward, by the time the car is accelerating straight. Again, this may, or may, not lead to a push condition on exit under throttle, but depending on the timing* of weight transfer from the outside front tire to the inside rear tire. If the WT happens too soon, it will push.

So ... what do we do? Drink beer. :cheers:

Or, we could make these changes to optimize the set-up on the slicks:
A. Change to stiffer rate front & rear springs.

Note: If ... IF ... the front shock compression valving is adjustable enough ... we may be able to slow the rate of weight transfer from rear to front enough ... to restore the compression rate & distance to optimum ... and we may not. The "range" of the shock adjustment may simply not be enough. Frankly, going from 200TW to Hoosier R6's I doubt it. The only shock I know with that much range "might" be the JRI's.

B. Adjust your front & rear sway bars to stiffer settings ... or install bigger sway bars in the front & rear.

C. Fine tune the shock valving.
* Shock valving is the key tool for controlling the timing of events.

Fronts: Increase the rate of low speed rebound valving & fine tune the rate of compression valving to optimize the rate of front compression in dive with the new stiffer front springs.

Rears: Increase compression valving to slow the roll angle transition & help the car turn.

Note: If the car is still pushing on exit under throttle ... stiffen the high speed rebound valving on the front shocks and/or reduce the low speed rebound valving of the rear shocks a little.

D. Fine tune the car's front to rear grip balance by raising the rear roll center a little with your adjustable track bar or Watt's link.

How much change to achieve optimum? You won't know until you test. Just like you won't know what optimum is with the 200TW tires until you test also. :)

A experienced tuner like myself can get you in the ball park, but when you start pushing a car to its limits ... that when you truly find out what the car wants.

Important note: Lazy racers want to make one big change, and that is not optimum .. far from it. The only way to keep the car "happy" & truly optimized is making small to moderate changes in all these areas I've outlined.

Sometimes true optimum requires small amounts in other areas too, such as brake bias, track width (think thin wheel spacers) toe/ackerman, slight changes in ride height and/or rake, etc.

Make sense? Got questions ?

.

FETorino

07-17-2013, 10:43 PM

Hi Rob,

Make sense? Got questions ?

[/COLOR]

.

A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
Bruce Lee

I have plenty more foolish questions I'm just trying to make good use of the answers I already have to avoid being foolish. :drowninga: That might take some time.:confused59:

If only I had a picture of a new part I could distract everyone with.:flashie:

:cheers:

Ron Sutton

07-17-2013, 11:13 PM

[I]
If only I had a picture of a new part I could distract everyone with.:flashie:

:cheers:

When that happens to me, I just post photos of very attractive women. :)

You never did tell me if my front wheels were "Jiffypop" or not.

Look at the one on the left in between the rolling tool boxes. The 5-spoke style is "flat" ... but it's all the way out to the edge with no lip. Does it have to "crown out" to be "Jiffy Pop" ... or does just having no lip make it "Jiffy Pop? :lol:

.

FETorino

07-17-2013, 11:19 PM

When that happens to me, I just post photos of very attractive women. :)

You never did tell me if my front wheels were "Jiffypop" or not.

Look at the one on the left in between the rolling tool boxes. The 5-spoke style is "flat" ... but it's all the way out to the edge with no lip. Does it have to "crown out" to be "Jiffy Pop" ... or does just having no lip make it "Jiffy Pop? :lol:

.

I've looked at this picture several times and I still don't see any wheels.:_paranoid

Ron in So Cal is the wheel guy. Maybe he can see them.

FETorino

07-18-2013, 04:31 PM

:lol: Your killin' me dude :lol:

Dont mind me...Carry on......Please :popcorn2:

Well Gae I told you this was coming back on post 120 something:lol: It's just taken me Flash time to get to it.

First I planned the build and got the chassis and drivetrain, wheels, tires and Brakes. Pretty much have that handled so....:headscratch:

Now it's time to plan the tune so I can buy the springs, shocks and bars. I still have a little bit of rework to do on some parts :bang: after my recent education into what I didn't know about chassis tuning. :hello:

I'll have some more big updates in a few weeks. For now I just want to focus on chassis tuning.

Ron was going to walk through roll center and it's use as a tuning tool. :idea: OBTW Ron I see you changed the picture but I still don't see the wheels. :wow:

That is something I didn't focus enough attention on initially.:bang: I guess it fell into the yada yada yada column and got overlooked. Not the end of the world but if you really want your car to be tunable it is somehting you should be educated on.

:cheers:

06-24-2012, 10:46 AM

My only theory is it will be an exciting car to drive and something a little different. :D

Well Todd you know as well as anyone once I get this thing to the track it will be a long road of tuning to get it "fast".:D

I've chosen some good parts and am working with good people for the base. I'll have plenty of power delivery and a chassis with good geometry to tune.

Spring rates, sway bar rates, shock valving, air pressure, yada yada yada..... There will be a lot of things to sort out. Step one I just need to keep focused on building a running car. :faint:

Track Junky

07-18-2013, 06:48 PM

Couldn't agree more and I'm glad you've seen the light. My only gripe is having to ask questions about my car in your thread. Just dont feel it's appropriate.

My feeling is that all of the info that Ron has posted that is in general and not specific to your car should be placed in a "Suspension Technology" sticky for all to go to.

Lenie

07-18-2013, 06:50 PM

I've looked at this picture several times and I still don't see any wheels.:_paranoid

Ron in So Cal is the wheel guy. Maybe he can see them.

It's unanimous, he for got to put the wheels in the photo!

Ron Sutton

07-18-2013, 07:28 PM

It's unanimous, he forgot to put the wheels in the photo!

LOL :rofl:

Yeah, Heather Rene is a hottie. :whistling:

She's one of the top girls doing event promos for us since 2006.

.

Ron Sutton

07-18-2013, 07:32 PM

Couldn't agree more and I'm glad you've seen the light. My only gripe is having to ask questions about my car in your thread. Just don't feel it's appropriate.

My feeling is that all of the info that Ron has posted that is in general and not specific to your car should be placed in a "Suspension Technology" sticky for all to go to.

What I'd rather do, is leave all the info I created for Rob here ... and start another thread ... or threads ... specifically to discuss suspension set-ups & tuning. But Rob already asked about roll centers, so I'll post that here next. Than we can start a new thread or two.

.

67goatman455

07-18-2013, 07:37 PM

I am definitely seeing some "jiffy-pop" after looking at that photo :lol:

She's 25?! I'm 25! We have so much in common!!!:idea:

On a side note, i need some asprin to get through all the technical data that i want to learn so badly!

Track Junky

07-18-2013, 07:38 PM

That would be great Ron....Then maybe one of these mods could turn it into a sticky :thumbsup:

intocarss

07-18-2013, 08:27 PM

That would be great Ron....Then maybe one of these mods could turn it into a sticky :thumbsup:

You'd like that wouldn't you :secret:

Ron in SoCal

07-18-2013, 09:57 PM

So where's all these parts updates I keep hearing about? :secret:

FETorino

07-18-2013, 10:27 PM

You'd like that wouldn't you :secret:

I know I will JerDog. It should eliminate the :beathorse :drama: on my thread about answers to my suspension questions.

How soon Gae forgets I posted an explanation of and a link to the instructions for his Accusmp on his thread that should have been a sticky in the Engine section.:lmao:

It's so F:censored: people have to go to his thread to read about his Accusump to learn about Accusumps when it is a general engine oiling accessory. :lmao:

So where's all these parts updates I keep hearing about? :secret:

I just gave you wheel pics last week Ron. :snapout: Like a said a couple more weeks. More parts are on their way.:mock:

How about a picture of my super stretched Michelin 285 on a 10.5" test wheel that Travis built for me when I was trying to nail offset and sizing. As Rubicon Matt would say hellaflush.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1887_zpsdbe1e023.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1887_zpsdbe1e023.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1888_zps7a8c847f.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1888_zps7a8c847f.jpg.html)

:cheers:

Ron in SoCal

07-18-2013, 11:15 PM

You sure know how to push my buttons :lol:

Flash68

07-19-2013, 12:58 AM

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 07:09 AM

There's an amazing new feature that was recently added.... just click on the "NEW THREAD" button at the top and see what happens. :twak:

That' funny right there. :lmao:

.

intocarss

07-19-2013, 07:19 AM

There's an amazing new feature that was recently added.... just click on the "NEW THREAD" button at the top and see what happens. :twak:

Holy crap!!!! All this GREAT technical advise in between thread high jackings, being a smartass without calling people names!! Why why... it's just like "YB" of old. I feel rt at home here. :grouphug:

Where the weak are killed and eatn????? :hello:

fleetus macmullitz

07-19-2013, 07:22 AM

Modify old cars > new cars
Modify old threads < new threads

:hello:

Track Junky

07-19-2013, 07:26 AM

How soon Gae forgets I posted an explanation of and a link to the instructions for his Accusmp on his thread that should have been a sticky in the Engine section.:lmao:

It's so F:censored: people have to go to his thread to read about his Accusump to learn about Accusumps when it is a general engine oiling accessory. :lmao:

:cheers:

That is a good point and a great idea. If the mods wanted to cut and paste that info into a sticky I wouldn't have an issue with that.

There's an amazing new feature that was recently added.... just click on the "NEW THREAD" button at the top and see what happens. :twak:

Does that feature create a sticky and allow me to copy and paste all of the "not specific to Rob's car" info that Ron has provided in Robs thread to that thread for all of us to review? Thats what I thought. :buttkick:

Let me put it another way....Say a new guy came along and wanted to get some info on suspension technology. Would he automatically know to go to Robs thread and get that info?

Either way....it's your baby....organize as you see fit.

GregWeld

07-19-2013, 07:31 AM

Anybody know how to do those multi quote thingys????

Track Junky

07-19-2013, 07:32 AM

where the weak are killed and eatn????? :hello:

.........And I'm starting to get real hungry :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

fleetus macmullitz

07-19-2013, 07:36 AM

.........And I'm starting to get real hungry :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

If this sticky back and forth is makin' you thirsty, pm 'Flash68'.

:catfight:

:hello:

intocarss

07-19-2013, 07:48 AM

.........And I'm starting to get real hungry :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Let her eat Tracky ....LET HER EAT!!:drive:

Sieg

07-19-2013, 07:58 AM

There's an amazing new feature that was recently added.... just click on the "NEW THREAD" button at the top and see what happens. :twak:
Remember the dyno video upload issues? :bitchslap:

intocarss

07-19-2013, 08:10 AM

Remember the dyno video upload issues? :bitchslap:

And look who decided to show up :bang: WHAT, Tucker & Rev let you off your leash?? :RunninDog: :hello: :hello: :hello:

Sieg

07-19-2013, 08:27 AM

And look who decided to show up :bang: WHAT, Tucker & Rev let you off your leash?? :RunninDog: :hello: :hello: :hello:
I've been busy uploading and editing a couple hundred photos I shot at an event last night............talking about photography in this thread is definitely waaay off-topic.

I've looked at this picture several times and I still don't see any wheels.:_paranoid

Ron in So Cal is the wheel guy. Maybe he can see them.
I'll post a vintage wheel pic from last night to get this thread back on topic.............

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Other/Invitational-2013/i-wN7xZ8S/1/L/_MG_4781-L.jpg

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 08:36 AM

You guys are "special." :poke:

Very special. :thumbsup:

Before I post the info on tuning with roll centers ... does anyone want to further discuss:

a. Tuning to balance a car with bigger rear tires

b. Effects of different track widths

c. Tire characteristics on different rim widths

d. The true definition of "Jiffy Pop" wheels

e. High Travel/Low Roll Suspensions

f. Heather Rene, wheels for my car, wheels on my pit carts

g. Any parts of steering geometry: KPI, Caster, Caster Gain, Camber, Camber gain, Ackerman, toe, etc.

h. Scrub radius

i .Why Dave & Jer changed to cat & chicken avatars

j. What happens to the handling when changing tires to or from slicks

k. The difference between being "involved" or "committed"

...

intocarss

07-19-2013, 10:20 AM

I've been busy uploading and editing a couple hundred photos I shot at an event last night............talking about photography in this thread is definitely waaay off-topic.

So what you're saying is,, no love for Tuc or Rev and you still can't tune a carb worth a sh*t!! Yup yup :twak: :popcorn2:

ANOTHER GREAT PIC THOUGH... :thumbsup: NOW GET OVER TO THE PIC THREAD AND POST EM UP!! MAYBE EVEN BRING BACK THAT NORWOOD CREATURE TOO :rules: :relax:

You guys are "special." :poke:

Very special. :thumbsup:

Why Dave & Jer changed to cat & chicken avatars

... AND SO ARE YOU RON :thumbsup: :underchair:

DON'T REALLY KNOW WHY WE DID. DAVE'S NOW AN ANGRY PUSS W/ TEETH AND I'M A CHICKLET W/ BIG GUNS :headscratch: :secret:

FETorino

07-19-2013, 10:43 AM

You guys are "special." :poke:

Very special. :thumbsup:

Before I post the info on tuning with roll centers ... does anyone want to further discuss:

a. Tuning to balance a car with bigger rear tires

This one could be a general thread item since so many cars on this forum run as wide as possible in the rear. In fact many have an even greater split than on my car

b. Effects of different track widths

In a previous post on scrub and spindles you focused on maximizing track width. At some point on a really tight course such as some of the peanut autoxs maybe too much track is a bad thing? What about that? Is there an optimal range based on a ratio of track vs wheelbase and I imagine this changes with the cars intended use. Specific to my problem:_paranoid I am somewhat limited on track and over indulging in wheelbase so what unique issues does that cause for my build?

c. Tire characteristics on different rim widths I think Matt is pretty clear that he needs a low rim width to allow for super low air pressure when he goes rock crawling:stirthepot:

d. The true definition of "Jiffy Pop" wheels
That has now been trademarked and it's use in any sticky threads is subject to fines and or JerDog

e. High Travel/Low Roll Suspensions

Once Gae's mood swing subsides:poke: and he gains an understanding of the new thread post and PM features he should contact you and that could be the title of the new sticky

f. Heather Rene, wheels for my car, wheels on my pit carts
We really just need more pictures to fully understand the HR concept.

g. Any parts of steering geometry: KPI, Caster, Caster Gain, Camber, Camber gain, Ackerman, toe, etc.
Since I believe I have a low amount of scrub in seeking a KPI/Castor split to gain grip on those tiny 285s :lol: I have up front is it more advantageous to simply gain castor by changing my UCA or would a spindle with a lower KPI angle be a better route. I realize the smaller angle of the spindle would create more scrub but since I have a high inside offset I would still be in what you consider the "low" range.

h. Scrub radius
All scrubbed up

i .Why Dave & Jer changed to cat & chicken avatars
That is the least of their problems or our problems with them:lmao:

j. What happens to the handling when changing tires to or from slicks
Until I get some real specifics on my car and can post some questions followed by real world track results from the changes I'm good on this

k. The difference between being "involved" or "committed"

I'm involved in building a car.
Gae should be committed.:lmao:
JerDog is involved in some trash talk.
Dave is committed to change.:action-smiley-027:
GW is involved with INTORS.
I am committed to Formula43 :thumbsup:
Ron in So Cal is committed to wheels.
Ron in So Cal is committed to wheels.
Ron in So Cal is committed to wheels.

99.9999999999% on the forum are involved with a Camaro.
I am committed to a Torino.

I choose the path of the pig since I am committed to whooping some involved chickens. :relax:

...

:y0!: in seeking how to balance my car's handling then a discussion on roll centers is in order.

:cheers:

FETorino

07-19-2013, 10:48 AM

So what you're saying is,, no love for Tuc or Rev and you still can't tune a carb worth a sh*t!! Yup yup :twak: :popcorn2:

ANOTHER GREAT PIC THOUGH... :thumbsup: NOW GET OVER TO THE PIC THREAD AND POST EM UP!! MAYBE EVEN BRING BACK THAT NORWOOD CREATURE TOO :rules: :relax:

AND SO ARE YOU RON :thumbsup: :underchair:

DON'T REALLY KNOW WHY WE DID. DAVE'S NOW AN ANGRY PUSS W/ TEETH AND I'M A CHICKLET W/ BIG GUNS :headscratch: :secret:

JerDog give Sieg some credit at least he's with us in the 1940's slo touring world.:thumbsup: Maybe by the time Ron (in SoCAl) figures that laptop out Sieg will have a handle on the 4150 metering blocks.:poke:

DG has always been an angry puss with bright white teeth. That's why he looks good in Mauve.:mock:

I'm not touching the chicklet with guns comment. I know better.:underchair:

fleetus macmullitz

07-19-2013, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Ron Sutton http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?p=494265#post494265)
You guys are "special." :poke:

Very special. :thumbsup:

Before I post the info on tuning with roll centers ... does anyone want to further discuss:

a. Tuning to balance a car with bigger rear tires

This one could be a general thread item since so many cars on this forum run as wide as possible in the rear. In fact many have an even greater split than on my car

b. Effects of different track widths

In a previous post on scrub and spindles you focused on maximizing track width. At some point on a really tight course such as some of the peanut autoxs maybe too much track is a bad thing? What about that? Is there an optimal range based on a ratio of track vs wheelbase and I imagine this changes with the cars intended use. Specific to my problem:_paranoid I am somewhat limited on track and over indulging in wheelbase so what unique issues does that cause for my build?

c. Tire characteristics on different rim widths I think Matt is pretty clear that he needs a low rim width to allow for super low air pressure when he goes rock crawling:stirthepot:

d. The true definition of "Jiffy Pop" wheels
That has now been trademarked and it's use in any sticky threads is subject to fines and or JerDog

e. High Travel/Low Roll Suspensions

Once Gae's mood swing subsides:poke: and he gains an understanding of the new thread post and PM features he should contact you and that could be the title of the new sticky

f. Heather Rene, wheels for my car, wheels on my pit carts
We really just need more pictures to fully understand the HR concept.

g. Any parts of steering geometry: KPI, Caster, Caster Gain, Camber, Camber gain, Ackerman, toe, etc.
Since I believe I have a low amount of scrub in seeking a KPI/Castor split to gain grip on those tiny 285s :lol: I have up front is it more advantageous to simply gain castor by changing my UCA or would a spindle with a lower KPI angle be a better route. I realize the smaller angle of the spindle would create more scrub but since I have a high inside offset I would still be in what you consider the "low" range.

h. Scrub radius
All scrubbed up

i .Why Dave & Jer changed to cat & chicken avatars
That is the least of their problems or our problems with them:lmao:

j. What happens to the handling when changing tires to or from slicks
Until I get some real specifics on my car and can post some questions followed by real world track results from the changes I'm good on this

k. The difference between being "involved" or "committed"

I'm involved in building a car.
Gae should be committed.:lmao:
JerDog is involved in some trash talk.
Dave is committed to change.:action-smiley-027:
GW is involved with INTORS.
I am committed to Formula43 :thumbsup:
Ron in So Cal is committed to wheels.
Ron in So Cal is committed to wheels.
Ron in So Cal is committed to wheels.

99.9999999999% on the forum are involved with a Camaro.
I am committed to a Torino.

I choose the path of the pig since I am committed to whooping some involved chickens. :relax:

...
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/images/smilies/y0%21.gif in seeking how to balance my car's handling then a discussion on roll centers is in order.

Some tech/lotta humor...nice work Rob. :D

http://www.domrep.ch/images/smilies/respekt.gif

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 11:46 AM

In a previous post on scrub and spindles you focused on maximizing track width. At some point on a really tight course such as some of the peanut autoxs maybe too much track is a bad thing?

What about that? Is there an optimal range based on a ratio of track vs wheelbase and I imagine this changes with the cars intended use. Specific to my problem I am somewhat limited on track and over indulging in wheelbase so what unique issues does that cause for my build?

Good question. Since we're only talking PT cars here, and not designing unique cars from scratch, we can keep the discussion to track widths in the 55-65" range. Wider provides stability, roll resistance & makes it easier to work all four tires more evenly. But width can add aero drag, depending on the package (aka car shape). There is no optimum Track to WB ratio. If there was a ratio, it would only give one more thing for car guys to debate. :lol:

For road courses, having the track wider helps in a big way. At cornering speeds of 60-100 mph these PT cars want to roll too much. Of course we select springs & sway bars to help reduce this roll, but widening the track width achieves the same goal as lowering the CG ... it reduces the leverage the CG has that produces roll angle in the first place.

Lowering the CG or widening the track width reduces roll angle at the source ... where springs, swaybars & roll centers are used to deal with the excessive roll angle after the fact. When the track width is wider, a specific "optimum" roll angle can be achieved with softer springs & smaller sway bars, which is a plus.

Wider track widths make the car WAY more drivable ... in a wide variety of lines ... providing the driver more confidence & options ... when a car is driven to its limits in high speed corners. A narrow track width is the opposite, making the car more knife edgy, often limiting the driver to a single narrow groove the car will run well in and does instills the opposite of confidence ... concern and/or fear ... in the driver.

For tight AutoX tracks, the primary drawback to wide track widths can be literally fitting through the cones. When I was at the Pleasanton GG AutoX in the spring, the chicane was literally 70" wide if you drew a straight line through it. Rob's red truck has a 71-72" overall width. Where everyone else ... talent permitting ... could thread the chicane, Rob had to turn left, right & left. Serious disadvantage there. Where on bigger AutoX tracks, his wider TW is an advantage.

The other issue ... "could" be ... getting the car to roll enough to help it turn well. This would only be an issue if the car is on a traditional low travel suspension set-up that needs the car to roll ... and the car couldn't achieve enough roll with their spring, sway bar & roll center package. Obviously, this could be remedied with softer springs. smaller sway bars or lower roll centers.

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 11:48 AM

d. The true definition of "Jiffy Pop" wheels
That has now been trademarked and it's use in any sticky threads is subject to fines and or JerDog

Yup ... got it!

Do we all need to sign agreements stating we understand & agree? :rolleyes:

.

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 12:03 PM

f. Heather Rene, wheels for my car, wheels on my pit carts
We really just need more pictures to fully understand the HR concept.

I understand. I am a visual learner as well. Especially for things as complex as women. :lol:

Here is a lil' sumthin' to tide everyone over for now.

.

Sieg

07-19-2013, 12:59 PM

MAYBE EVEN BRING BACK THAT NORWOOD CREATURE TOO :rules: :relax:
Here's a concept that may be hard for some to comprehend........I've been driving ol' Norwood everyday since Wednesday of last week. :hello:

Back to Ferd's and KPI...........

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Gz4454q/1/L/i-Gz4454q-L.jpg

Ron in SoCal

07-19-2013, 01:12 PM

I understand. I am a visual learner as well. Especially for things as complex as women. :lol:

Here is a lil' sumthin' to tide everyone over for now.

.

Nothing better than a hot woman welding. Her roll center is.....umm, nevermind. :topic:

FETorino

07-19-2013, 01:17 PM

Here's a concept that may be hard for some to comprehend........I've been driving ol' Norwood everyday since Wednesday of last week. :hello:

Back to Ferd's and KPI...........

The off idle stumble and mid transition lean spot don't bother you?:lol:

I wish those were my current problems.:bang:

Nothing better than a hot woman welding. Her roll center is.....umm, nevermind. :topic:

Just about perfect?:_paranoid

I'd guess that because I have a lot of experience with a little older model chassis with nearly identical specs, just a longer wheelbase.:D

:cheers:

Sieg

07-19-2013, 01:45 PM

The off idle stumble and mid transition lean spot don't bother you?:lol:

I wish those were my current problems.:bang:

Schmooth baby, schmooth.......

I am concerned about my front end geometry.......because of actual tire wear as opposed to hypothetical. :mock:

Sieg

07-19-2013, 01:47 PM

I understand. I am a visual learner as well. Especially for things as complex as women. :lol:

Here is a lil' sumthin' to tide everyone over for now.

.

Hmmm, that looks too hot, what's the amperage and wire feed set at? :sieg:

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 02:00 PM

Hmmm, that looks too hot, what's the amperage and wire feed set at? :sieg:

I dunno. She set the welder. :welder:

I was helping the photographer. :whistling:

.

FETorino

07-19-2013, 02:05 PM

Schmooth baby, schmooth.......

I am concerned about my front end geometry.......because of actual tire wear as opposed to hypothetical. :mock:

I'm surprised you've seen that much wear going back and fourth to PetCo.

I dunno. She set the welder. :welder:

I was helping the photographer. :whistling:

.

Now I'm coonfused:hello: What welder? I don't see a welder.

carbuff

07-19-2013, 02:34 PM

In a similar vein to the TW / WB ratio question, at what point would having a wider front TW compared to the rear TW start to decrease handling performance? Or stated a different way, is there such thing as too much front TW compared to the rear?

I don't think that was answered already, but my brain is a little distracted by things other than FErds and suspension in this thread. ;)

Sieg

07-19-2013, 02:37 PM

I dunno. She set the welder. :welder: :whistling:

That confirms the heat setting. :unibrow:

Now I'm confused :hello: What welder? I don't see a welder.

Your problem is obviously too much stick-out. :welder:

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 02:47 PM

g. Any parts of steering geometry: KPI, Caster, Caster Gain, Camber, Camber gain, Ackerman, toe, etc.
Since I believe I have a low amount of scrub in seeking a KPI/Castor split to gain grip on those tiny 285s I have up front is it more advantageous to simply gain castor by changing my UCA or would a spindle with a lower KPI angle be a better route. I realize the smaller angle of the spindle would create more scrub but since I have a high inside offset I would still be in what you consider the "low" range.

Tiny 285's :lol:

In my experience, keeping the KPI you have to keep the scrub radius lower is by far the smarter route. It's a little like widening the track width ... in that you're affecting the handling at the source, versus "trying to deal with it" afterwards with suspension tuning.

Same with scrub radius. If the car has a larger scrub radius, you will do a lot of tuning "trying to deal with it" afterwards with suspension changes. So no, I wouldn't change spindles, I would change or modify your UCA and/or LCA to achieve more caster.

Once I know the actual scrub radius ... and the "for sure" KPI of your spindle ... I can give you two caster targets. One that would "ok" for most road course corners ... and one that would turn on a dime regardless of corner radius.

Since we have been given 3 KPI different numbers on the C6 spindle ... :confused59: until we're "sure" of the KPI ... and scrub radius ... it's hard to say anything with certainty. I can teach you a "car guy" way of determining your scrub radius ... if you want to measure scrub radius yourself.

.

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 03:00 PM

k. The difference between being "involved" or "committed'"

I'm involved in building a car.
Gae should be committed.
JerDog is involved in some trash talk.
Dave is committed to change.
GW is involved with INTORS.
I am committed to Formula43
Ron in So Cal is committed to wheels.
Ron in So Cal is committed to wheels.
Ron in So Cal is committed to wheels.

99.9999999999% on the forum are involved with a Camaro.
I am committed to a Torino.

I choose the path of the pig since I am committed to whooping some involved chickens.

Rob, I'd better clue everyone else in on our joke.

Rob & I were talking about the handling of his Torino ... and I asked him, "Are you 'committed' to making your Torino handle optimum ... or just 'involved'?

Rob said, "I'm not sure of the difference between the two."
I said, "Well ... this morning when you had ham & eggs for breakfast ... the chicken was involved ... but that damn pig was committed!" :ohsnap:

.

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 03:03 PM

Here's a concept that may be hard for some to comprehend........I've been driving ol' Norwood everyday since Wednesday of last week. :hello:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Gz4454q/1/L/i-Gz4454q-L.jpg

Cool !

.

DOOM

07-19-2013, 03:17 PM

Rob I like all the progress you've been making with this beast! Keep it up!

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 04:05 PM

RON

DON'T REALLY KNOW WHY WE DID. DAVE'S NOW AN ANGRY PUSS W/ TEETH AND I'M A CHICKLET W/ BIG GUNS :headscratch: :secret:

They look like SMALL guns ... but hey ... it's your story ... you tell it how you want. :lol:

.

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 04:15 PM

Nothing better than a hot woman welding. Her roll center is.....umm, nevermind. :topic:

I agree. Heather Rene is a hottie.

She is an interesting, diverse, smart young gal. She wrenches on her Dodge truck, welds, etc, ... when's she not working two jobs, modeling, going to college, doing mud runs or doing commercials & film promotions.

We've used the same photographer for years too. She is hotter than most the models. But she won't let post pics of her. :(

.

intocarss

07-19-2013, 04:42 PM

I understand. I am a visual learner as well. Especially for things as complex as women. :lol:

Here is a lil' sumthin' to tide everyone over for now.

.HEY i'm a visual learner too (no lie)

THAT PIC...............HOT DAMN!!!

Mr RON....:king:

BMF BETTER STEP UP HIS THREAD :bigun2:

I'LL GO HELP :idea: :bump:

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 08:02 PM

In a similar vein to the TW / WB ratio question, at what point would having a wider front TW compared to the rear TW start to decrease handling performance? Or stated a different way, is there such thing as too much front TW compared to the rear?

In case new people drop in on our conversation, track width is center of tread to center of tread. Tread width is outside tread to outside tread (not the sidewall).

I don’t think of track width difference as decreasing handling performance. I think of it as a tuning tool … if the track width is adjustable … or a tuning challenge if it is too far biased on one end and NOT adjustable.

While there are exceptions to almost every rule, I typically don’t want to see the track width difference more than 1” on either end. Even that can be a challenge if it the difference is the wrong direction.

Within reasonable differences making the front track width wider than the rear … or the rear wider than the front can be a practical tuning tool. Making the front track width wider than the rear = tightens the car … too much makes it push. Wider rear track width than front track width = frees the car … too much makes it loose.

Put even more simply, regardless of what is going on at the other end …
a. Moving the front tires out tightens the car.*
b. Moving the front tires in frees the car.*
c. Moving the rear tires in tightens the car.
d. Moving the rear tires out frees the car.

*Note: Adding spacers to the front hubs, increases the scrub radius. So when I can use … either adjustable LCA’s … or simply replace the LCA’s for the track width I want … that is how I prefer to do it, versus adding wheel spacers to the front. I have used wheel spacers in the front many, many times. It’s just not my preferred method. Sometimes class rules dictate the decision.

A LOT of racers use small (1/8” to 1”) wheel spacers to tune … and in fact, many design & build their rear end & front hub combination with spacers as a part of it, so they can be removed to go “in” if needed … and of course, go “out” with more spacer as needed.

For the car I designed for myself with an AutoX priority, the lower control arms use adjustable threaded ends to allow up to 3/4” width change per side … 1.5” total track width adjustment, without affecting the scrub radius. With 335 tires on all 4 corners, my “standard track width” is 55” front & 54.5” rear. I can adjust the front from 54” to 55.5” without spacers.

The rear end in my car will “start” with spacers that can be removed & of course, spacers can be added, for a 2” adjustable track width range in the rear from 53.5” to 55.5” As far as spacers go, I prefer to use them on the rear end only, so as not to affect the scrub radius.

Additional tips: For cars with “high travel/low roll” suspension strategies, the front to rear “track width split” favoring the front works best. For cars with “low travel/high roll” suspension strategies, the front to rear track width split favoring the rear works best.

If your car is already “designed & built” … and the track width is a wider in the front, that will “contribute” to the car being tight/pushy a degree. If the track width is a narrower in the front, that will “contribute” to the car being free/loose to a degree. I use the word contribute, because there are a lot of other suspension & geometry factors affecting the grip at each end of the car. If the track width is not adjustable at either end, you will need to tune with roll center, springs & sway bars to balance the car.

.

Che70velle

07-19-2013, 08:20 PM

Great post Ron. Valuable info for free guys!

Ron Sutton

07-19-2013, 08:57 PM

Great post Ron. Valuable info for free guys!

Hey Scott ... thanks. From page 118 to here we've had a pretty good tech discussion going.

Feel free to join in.

FETorino

07-19-2013, 09:17 PM

Rob I like all the progress you've been making with this beast! Keep it up!

Thanks Mario. I hear there are bowties that will be prowling the streets with Twin Turbo Big Blocks in them so I need to be prepared.:D :guns:

If your car is already “designed & built” … and the track width is a wider in the front, that will “contribute” to the car being tight/pushy a degree. If the track width is a narrower in the front, that will “contribute” to the car being free/loose to a degree. I use the word contribute, because there are a lot of other suspension & geometry factors affecting the grip at each end of the car. If the track width is not adjustable at either end, you will need to tune with roll center, springs & sway bars to balance the car.

.

:y0!: Uh Yea? :twak: How about that?:lmao:

:cheers:

Ron Sutton

07-20-2013, 10:52 AM

:y0!: Uh Yea? :twak: How about that?:lmao:

:cheers:

I'm not sure what you said, let alone how to respond. :lol:

.

FETorino

07-20-2013, 11:02 AM

If your car is already “designed & built” If the track width is a narrower in the front, that will “contribute” to the car being free/loose to a degree. If the track width is not adjustable at either end, you will need to tune with roll center, springs & sway bars to balance the car.

.

:y0!: Uh Yea? :twak: How about that?:lmao:

:cheers:

I'm not sure what you said, let alone how to respond. :lol:

.

:lol: Hmm I know of a car as you described above:headscratch: It sounds familiar.:headscratch:

Oh yea that would be mine

Pretty much non adjustable track width without a :superhack: involved.
Track in front a little narrower than the rear. Although I have tightened that up a bit by :secret: and looking at :secret: .

there has been a fair amount of discussion on the spring, :secret:shock and bar package for my set up.

So it seems that leaves us @ :headscratch:

Tune with roll center. Yep that's it:idea:

:cheers:

Ron Sutton

07-20-2013, 12:53 PM

Rob,

I get it now.

Yes ... your car's wider rear track width ... by 2" ... helps us free up the rear of the big girl a bit. This is a step in the right direction to help overcome the bigger rear tires, but by itself wouldn't be enough.

In the suspension set-up I outlined for you, I bumped the rear spring rate & sway bar rate a "tad" ... but raised the rear panhard bar (roll center) more ... also to help free her up.

Once you hit the track, we'll need to "tune on her" to achieve a good balance & optimum set-up.

.

Ron Sutton

07-20-2013, 03:14 PM

Alrighty then ... let's talk Roll Centers.

I’ll be very basic for any readers following along that are completely new to this & apologize in advance for boring the veterans with more knowledge of this. Cars have two roll centers … one as part of the front suspension & one as part of the rear suspension. I’ll first explain what role they play in the handling of a car … then how to calculate them … and finally how to tune with them.

Think of the front & rear roll centers as pivot points. When the car experiences body roll during cornering … everything above that pivot point rotates towards the outside of the corner … and everything below the pivot point rotates the opposite direction, towards the inside of the corner. Because the front & rear roll centers are often at different heights, the car rolls on different pivot points front & rear … “typically” higher in the rear & lower in the front.

If you were to draw a line parallel down the middle of the car connecting the two roll centers … this is called the "roll axis" … that line would represent the pivot angle the car rolls on … again “typically” higher in the rear & lower in the front.

.

Ron Sutton

07-20-2013, 03:28 PM

When a car is cornering … the forces that act on the car to make it roll … act upon the car’s Center of Gravity (CG). With typical production cars & “most” race cars, the CG is above the roll center … acting like a lever. The distance between the height of the CG & the height of each Roll Center is called the “Moment Arm.” Think of it a lever. The farther apart the CG & roll center are … the more leverage the CG has over the roll center to make the car roll. Excessive chassis roll angle is your enemy, because it is over working the outside tires & under utilizing the inside tires.

Some people like to look at the car as a unit. I look at it as two halves. Here are some examples … using a typical 3500# Pro Touring Car with 53% front weight… to provide more clarity:

If the CG is 20” high … and the front roll center is 2” below ground … the car has 53% of the 3500# weight with 22” of leverage to roll the front of the car.
If the CG is 20” high … and the rear roll center is 9” above ground … the car has 47% of the 3500# weight with 11” of leverage to roll the front of the car.
* Rolling the car that much more in the front overloads the outside front tire & under utilizes the inside front tire when cornering.

If you lowered the car 2” … the CG drops 2”. The front roll center probably moved too … but it’s not linear … it is based on A-arm angles. Let’s say it dropped 1” in the front to 3” below ground and the rear stayed the same at 9”.

Now …
If the CG is 18” high … and the front roll center is 3” below ground … the car has 53% of the 3500# weight with 21” of leverage to roll the front of the car.
If the CG is 18” high … and the rear roll center is 9” above ground … the car has 47% of the 3500# weight with 9” of leverage to roll the front of the car.
* The front now rolls over less & the rear too, making the car run “flatter” … not flat, just less roll angle … working the inside tires better.

Any weight you can remove from high up … or relocate to lower in the car … moves the CG down … reducing the leverage it has over the roll center … allowing the car to have less roll angle during cornering … working all four tires more evenly … and the grip of four tires is faster than two. :)

We’ll discuss moving the roll centers in the final section. Next, let’s cover how to figure out where your front & rear roll centers are at.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Front: Measuring all the pivot points in the front suspension to calculate the roll center in the front suspension of a double A-arm suspension car can be tedious … but the concept is quite simple.

Quick Acronyms:
UCA = Upper Control Arm
LCA = Lower Control Arm
BJC = Ball Joint Center
IC = Instant Center
RC = Roll Center
CG = Center of Gravity
CL = Centerline

Your UCA & LCA have pivot points on the chassis … and they pivot on the spindle at the BJC’s. Forget the shape of the control arms … the pivots are all that matter.

.

Ron Sutton

07-20-2013, 03:34 PM

Ron Sutton

07-20-2013, 03:40 PM

Now I’ll throw you a curve ball. The static RC at ride height doesn’t mean much. It is the dynamic roll center “in dive” that really matters. “In dive” means when the front suspension is compressed & the car is in roll. So in the corner … when you have the front suspension compressed & the car is rolled over … all those angles change … and therefore the roll center moves. It typically goes down … and may migrate to the left or right of center. In the drawing below, the car is making a right hand corner … compressing the suspension 2” in the center and rolling over at a 3 degree angle.

Again, the colored dots represent the IC’s for the same color LCA/UCA. See how the IC’s move the swing arm lengths change? The black dot represents the dynamic RC in dive. Notice the RC is lower but also “migrated” to the left.

* We’ll talk about how to tune with Roll Centers in the final section.

.

Ron Sutton

07-20-2013, 03:49 PM

Calculated the rear is easier, unless you have a double A-arm rear independent suspension … then it is exactly the same as the front. For all other common rear suspension types, here are the quick methods.

Panhard Bar/Track Bar: The RC is located horizontally & vertically at the center of the two pivots. If the bar is level and both sides are 8” off the ground … the roll center is 8” above the ground. If the bar is at an angle with one side at 11” & the other at 12” … the RC is at 11-1/2”. (But this angle will make the car handle differently on LH & RH corners.)

The RC is located horizontally exactly in the center of the two panhard bar pivots … which is why it makes sense to have the bar centered in the chassis on street, road race & AutoX cars … so the RC is centered in the chassis. Some oval track cars use a J-bar, which is not centered horizontally, and therefore neither is the RC.

Watt’s Link: The RC is located horizontally & vertically at the center of the bell crank pivot that is attached to the rear end housing.

Leaf Springs: The RC is located horizontally in the center … halfway between the two sets of leaf springs. The RC is located vertically at the height equal to the mating line where the leaf spring connects to the housing spring pads. If lowering blocks are utilized, the RC height is in the center of the lowering blocks.

Triangulated 4-links: Draw a line connecting the IC of the lower set of trailing arms … to the upper set of trailing arms … and where that line crosses the axle CL … is the rear RC.

Diagonal Link: The RC is located horizontally & vertically at the center of the two pivots. If the diagonal link is centered, so will the RC be. If the diagonal link is at 6” on one side and 7” on the other … the RC height is at 6-1/2”.

.

Ron Sutton

07-20-2013, 04:01 PM

Tuning with Roll Centers:

First off, most people find tuning with the front roll center difficult, tedious, confusing & laborious … and therefore they don’t do it much. I love those people as competitors because they’re easy to beat. Getting fast … faster than everyone else … takes work, testing, work, smarts, more work & more testing. And the front suspension … which is the most complicated … is the most important key to cornering performance. Because I understand it so well, that has been to my advantage over the years.

You don’t have to become a tuner to have fun with your Pro Touring car. You can buy & install many good suspension packages available on the market that have a “much better than factory” set-up for your car … because the aftermarket manufacturer worked out a good basic geometry package. The car will handle well, outperform most factory cars and be a lot of fun. Just don’t disillusion yourself into thinking you’re going to show up at serious competitions & beat the “thinkers & tuners” with a bolt on package.

If running “good” isn’t good enough, and you want to compete at a higher level and win events … you need to learn about suspension geometry & tuning … and do lots of testing & tuning. I figure I have over 2500 test days under my belt in my 35 years of racing. I’m not the smartest guy at the track … but when he goes home … I’m still there testing, tuning, learning & getting faster. To win … you gotta be willing to do the work. If you’re not, be clear on that and set your goals accordingly. We’re all here for fun. Some of us find the fun of winning worth the effort & sacrifices it takes to do so.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tuning with Front Roll Centers:

Let’s start with the understanding that to move the front RC … you are changing the angles of the UCA and/or LCA … to achieve a different IC. Some changes affect RC only dynamically in dive … while most changes affect the RC both statically at ride height & in dive. I’ll put an * next to the item that only changes RC dynamically & doesn’t show up statically.

What are (or can be) your tuning tools to change angles:
1. Spindle heights and/or distances from spindle pin to ball joint surfaces
2. Ball joint pin heights
3. Control arm length*
4. Adjustable control arm mounts on the chassis.
5. Also, obviously, any changes in ride height.

Direction:
a. Raising the RC, places it closer to the CG, reducing the CG leverage, reducing roll angle … and working the front tires less.
b. Lowering the RC, places it farther from the CG, increasing the CG leverage, increasing roll angle … and working the front tires more.
c. For faster corners found at big road courses I’ve found the happy window to be 1” to 2.5” … and -0.5 to 1.0” for tight AutoX events.
d. If the RC migrates to the inside of the corner under dive … it will work the front tires more … but roll more if not controlled by the suspension.
e. If the RC migrates to the outside of the corner under dive … it will roll less work the front tires & roll less.

*KEY NOTE: For optimum cornering ability, you need to WORK the tires … and low RC’s combined with big sway bars work the tires while keeping the roll angle low. In other words, don’t use the front RC as your primary tool to control the car’s roll angle.

For the hot rod I’m designing & building for myself, I have two front RC locations. For AutoX it is 0” in dive & 1.2” in dive for road racing & high speed events. All I have to do is change the slugs in two control arms & reset the toe & bump steer shim packet. Yes, I have big sway bars. :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also know, when you are changing these control arm angles, you are changing the camber gain. Use this to your advantage.

A lot of stock production cars have the swing arms so far out … there is little to no camber gain … often camber loss. Plus, in many stock production cars the A-arm angles put the roll center so low it is below ground ... and the CG is high … giving it a ton of leverage to roll the car … which is part of why many stock production cars roll so much.

Typically, when you dial in your front geometry … you’re goal is to place your RC for optimum handling for the type of driving you do (or find the best compromise) … and end up with the desired camber gain.

Some quick tips:
Anytime you’re shortening the “swing arm” … you’re increasing camber gain … regardless of how you did it.
Anytime you’re shortening the swing arm length … & keep the IC at the same height … you’re raising the RC.
Conversely, lengthening the swing arm length … & keeping the IC at the same height … lowers the RC.
Anytime you’re raising the IC of the swing arms … and keeping the same swing arm length … you’re raising the RC.
Conversely, lowering the IC of the swing arms… and keeping the same swing arm length … lowers the RC.

There are several software programs out there to calculate roll centers. I own & use several. I suggest Performance Trends to car guys & gals often because it is the easiest to use.

*KEY NOTE: When you change the swing arm IC … length or height … you are changing the bump steer … because you are changing the arc the UCA/Spindle/LCA assembly travels in. Another reason why so many people don’t like tuning on it.

For the hot rod I’m designing & building for myself, I have two front RC locations & have worked out the bump steer for both setups … which includes a tie rod slug & shims. I simply keep a “set” for each of the 2 RC locations, making the change over quicker & easy … after the initial work is done.

Last Key Note about Front Roll Centers
once I have tested & worked out an optimum front end set-up for a type of track … we “lock it in” and don’t change it at the track. So this is NOT something you’re constantly tuning on … just initially. At the track, the optimum front end geometry is the optimum front end geometry … so as the track changes throughout the day … we’re tuning on other stuff to keep the car “balanced”.

.

Ron Sutton

07-20-2013, 04:03 PM

Tuning with Rear Roll Centers:

If you have a double A-arm independent rear suspension … then it is exactly the same as the front. Change the term from “spindle” to “upright” and party on. Everything else is the same.

For all other common rear suspension types, here are the quick methods to tune.

Panhard Bar/Track Bar: Each end has a rod end as a pivot point. In race cars, we use a variety of different styles of mounts on the chassis & housing that allow us to relocate these pivot points up or down on both sides. I see a lot of aftermarket suspension kits & frame clips that have no adjustability.

My first thought is “what the … @$&% !”

Then I realized they’re doing this so tuning rookies don’t get themselves in trouble. Frankly, I can not fathom not having the rear roll center adjustable. It is one of the most predictable tuning tools & with the right mounts, simple, quick & easy. It is so easy, that in racing circles, if a racer is “lazy” that’s the tuning tool they use first & most, which isn’t correct, just reality of human nature.

Watt’s Link: Very simple to move the bell crank pivot up or down, as long as there are holes available.

Leaf Springs: Do not have an adjustable RC unless you change the mounting points of the springs or use lowering blocks.

Triangulated 4-links: Do not have an adjustable RC unless you change the mounting points of the links. Great for street performance cars with owners not desiring to tune.

Diagonal Links: Are for drag racing … as they are not independently adjustable for RC in the typical mounting. They mount to the ends of the rod end bolts, so change only when the lower bars are being moved to different holes.

The two best methods of centering the rear end … and have tunability … are the Watt’s link & panhard bar. Many people favor a Watt’s link because it keeps the rear end perfectly centered during travel & roll. I like them, but they’re not my preferred method, because the method of mounting leads to limited adjustability … sometimes only a few holes … farther apart than I like to make changes … and often mounted with the RC too high for modern low roll suspensions.

This limited tunability of the Watt’s link requires the tuner to rely more on other tuning items such as springs, shocks & sway bars. It reminds me a little of torque arm suspensions. They work well, just not much tuning adjustment. I think they’re the ticket for car guys that want to get a good set-up & just drive it.

As a tuner, I like to have a full tuning “tool box” at my disposal, and a panhard bar (or track bar, depending on where you came from) is more tunable. With the right adjustable mounts, I can move the RC 1/16” if I wish. I can make it super low … super high … or anywhere in between.

If … for any variety of reasons … the car is working the rear tires different in RH corners versus LH corners … I can put a little “tilt” in the panhard bar … while keeping the same RC height … and even out how the car works the rear tires in RH & LH corners, making a more balanced, faster track car. Just lower the bar down on the side you want to work the tire more … and raise the bar up on the opposite side the same amount. If I’m at a road course where I need a “lil sumthin” extra in one corner, I can achieve that with a little panhard bar tilt.

As far as keeping the rear end centered … with the newer technology low roll suspensions … if the outside rear tire is compressing much more than an inch during cornering … I’ve got bigger problems than the rear end shifting a few thousandths off center.

Direction … regardless if you’re using a Watt’s link or panhard bar:
a. Raising the RC, places it closer to the CG, reducing the CG leverage, reducing roll angle … and working the rear tires less.
b. Lowering the RC, places it farther from the CG, increasing the CG leverage, increasing roll angle … and working the rear tires more.
c. With low roll suspensions utilizing mean stiff rear springs … or medium springs & significant rear sway bar … for faster corners found at big road courses I’ve found the happy window to be 9” to 12” … and 7” to 10” for tight AutoX events.
d. Softer sprung, higher roll rear suspensions run higher rear RC’s.

*KEY NOTE: For optimum cornering ability, you need to position the rear RC low enough to work the rear tires … allowing just enough rear roll angle to disengage the inside rear tire to a degree … but high enough to prevent the outside rear tire to roll over so much that the car rolls diagonally … and unloads the inside front tire.

Old school, conventional, soft sprung rear suspensions achieve this with higher rear RC’s. Modern low roll suspensions achieve this with stiff rear springs (or or medium springs & significant rear sway bar) to control the roll angle, while utilizing a lower RC to work the outside tire more. In other words, modern suspensions don’t use the rear RC as the primary tool to control the car’s roll angle.

For the hot rod I’m designing & building for myself, I have two rear baseline RC locations. For AutoX it is 8” & for road racing & high speed events it is 11”. Because both sides adjust easy, it is about a 2 minute change. :)

Please don’t use these numbers for your car. Suspension set-up is all about the total package and not piece meal a set-up together.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Explaining what roll centers are, how to calculate them & how to tune with them ... front & rear ... was a little complex but very important.

This post got into the detail of roll centers (RC) ... but I think it's helpful for car guys & tuners to take several steps back & look at the big picture of handling ... to better understand the role of the RC with the rest of the car.

Total weight ... weight distribution front to rear ... and height of this weight (CG) act like a lever over the roll center. As discussed earlier, lowering the CG shortens that lever, as does raising the RC ... but works the tires less. Raising the CG lengthens that lever, as does lowering the RC ... and works the tires more.

Your goal is to move them both ... to the degree possible ... where you find the optimum balance of working the tires & roll angle. BUT ... and this is KEY ... modern day tuners do not use the RC height as the primary means of controlling roll angle. They use the suspension tuning items as their primary tools & the RC height as a secondary tool.

So to achieve the optimum balance of roll angle & working the 4 tires optimally ... this all has to work with your suspension ... springs, anti-roll bars & shocks ... and track width ... to end up at the optimum roll angle for your car & track application.

Hopefully, this brief overview, helps clarify roll centers place in the tuning picture.

.

Track Junky

07-20-2013, 05:24 PM

Ron you are the BOMB!! Cant thank you enough for sharing this info. I'm going to have to spend some time confirming my prior notions but I'm pretty sure if I drop the front of my car another inch I should be able to achieve the dynamic camber I am looking for through my control arms without putting so much static camber into it. I'll be testing at T-Hill on August 11th so I'll keep you posted. :thankyou:

Ron Sutton

07-20-2013, 06:05 PM

glassman

07-20-2013, 08:15 PM

ummmm, that is some good info right there, can that be stickied in the suspension section?

Other wise i might have to keep comin back to this Ford thread...JK :lol:

Ron Sutton

07-20-2013, 08:27 PM

ummmm, that is some good info right there, can that be stickied in the suspension section?

Other wise i might have to keep comin back to this Ford thread...JK :lol:

This coming week, we're going to start some specific forums on chassis tuning topics that will be "stickied" from the start. They will be very in-depth & detailed but general in nature for all PT cars.

.

FETorino

07-20-2013, 10:07 PM

I just catching up on some light reading before I dove into Ron's posts.:lol:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/news_zps7f2bc190.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/news_zps7f2bc190.jpg.html)

Ron Sutton

07-21-2013, 12:01 AM

That is cool Rob.

Love the old stuff.

.

fleetus macmullitz

07-21-2013, 02:24 AM

That is cool Rob.

Love the old stuff.

.

X2.:thumbsup:

Now how about posting some of your vintage '68 Camaro pics?

:flashie:

:D

FETorino

07-21-2013, 09:15 AM

X2.:thumbsup:

Now how about posting some of your vintage '68 Camaro pics?

:flashie:

:D

Skip

Thanks for asking :twak:

Here are a few of my favorites.:action-smiley-027:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/rusty3_zps72a9c9e0.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/rusty3_zps72a9c9e0.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/rusty2_zps5b2b99e6.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/rusty2_zps5b2b99e6.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/rusty_zpscfa38be0.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/rusty_zpscfa38be0.jpg.html)

Aren't you glad you asked.:lmao:

:cheers:

fleetus macmullitz

07-21-2013, 09:45 AM

Skip

Thanks for asking :twak:

Here are a few of my favorites.:action-smiley-027:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/rusty3_zps72a9c9e0.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/rusty3_zps72a9c9e0.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/rusty2_zps5b2b99e6.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/rusty2_zps5b2b99e6.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/rusty_zpscfa38be0.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/rusty_zpscfa38be0.jpg.html)

Aren't you glad you asked.:lmao:

:cheers:

I forgot who I was dealing with. http://www.domrep.ch/images/smilies/whiteflag.gif

So Rob, aka 'Big Butt Torino guy' FTW. :thumbsup:

:lol:

Sieg

07-21-2013, 09:53 AM

'Bout time we saw something with potential in this thread.

:underchair:

:whistling:

FETorino

07-21-2013, 10:03 AM

Some people like to look at the car as a unit. I look at it as two halves. Here are some examples … using a typical 3500# Pro Touring Car with 53% front weight… to provide more clarity:

Tuning with Rear Roll Centers:

This limited tunability of the Watt’s link requires the tuner to rely more on other tuning items such as springs, shocks & sway bars. It reminds me a little of torque arm suspensions. They work well, just not much tuning adjustment. I think they’re the ticket for car guys that want to get a good set-up & just drive it.

As a tuner, I like to have a full tuning “tool box” at my disposal, and a panhard bar (or track bar, depending on where you came from) is more tunable. With the right adjustable mounts, I can move the RC 1/16” if I wish. I can make it super low … super high … or anywhere in between.

Direction … regardless if you’re using a Watt’s link or panhard bar:
a. Raising the RC, places it closer to the CG, reducing the CG leverage, reducing roll angle … and working the rear tires less.
b. Lowering the RC, places it farther from the CG, increasing the CG leverage, increasing roll angle … and working the rear tires more.
c. With low roll suspensions utilizing mean stiff rear springs … or medium springs & significant rear sway bar … for faster corners found at big road courses I’ve found the happy window to be 9” to 12” … and 7” to 10” for tight AutoX events.
d. Softer sprung, higher roll rear suspensions run higher rear RC’s.

*KEY NOTE: For optimum cornering ability, you need to position the rear RC low enough to work the rear tires … allowing just enough rear roll angle to disengage the inside rear tire to a degree … but high enough to prevent the outside rear tire to roll over so much that the car rolls diagonally … and unloads the inside front tire.

.

Ron

Starting with the first statement about looking at the car in two halves. Correct me if I am wrong but I'm assuming you are speaking about the need to tune each end of the cars roll resistance based on each ends independent RC and not that the effect at one end is independent of the other end of the car.

A well built car should have a stiff chassis that allows the suspension to do it's work without the added variable of the frame flexing. But that stiff frame translates load from one end to the other.

Looking at you diagram of roll axis it seems obvious that increasing the length of the moment arm at either end would introduce some additional roll at the opposite end as the frame resists twisting.

If that line was a piece of pipe running through the car as I twisted one end clockwise the other end would follow in a clockwise direction.

Is it the front that unloads the inner rear tire on corner entry and loads it on corner exit?

If the balance is correct, would work something like.:headscratch:

The front have enough roll resistance going into the corner to keep the front flat and load both tires.
The rear also have the amount needed to keep it flat as the front first turns in.
The front roll translated through the axis provides enough added force to unload the inner rear tire which helps prevent overloading the outside front tire.
As you unwind the front on exit and that translated roll force diminishes the inner rear tire in again loaded for better corner exit.

In you statement about tuning the rear I think what you are doing is tuning the rear so that is have just enough of a moment arm to be overcome by the force from the front but not so much where it is overloading the front.

I'll wait on the answer to this to ensure I fully understand it before I ask what effect wheelbase would have on this relationship.:underchair:

Let me go find my hat :sieg: I may be wearing it soon.

:cheers:

Track Junky

07-21-2013, 10:27 AM

If you draw a line through the CL of the UCA pivots & another line though the CL of the LCA pivots … they will intersect at some point (as long as they are not parallel). That point is called the instant Center (IC) … and the UCA/Spindle/LCA assembly travels in an arc from that IC point. However far out that IC is … measured in inches … is called the Swing Arm length. More on this later.

Next you draw a line from the CL of the tire contact patch at ground level … to the IC. Do this on both sides … and where the two “Tire CL-to-IC” lines intersect … is the front roll center. Look at the drawing below. The colored dots represent the IC for the same color LCA/UCA. The black dot represents the static RC at ride height.

Make sense?

.

This is great stuff right hear Ron and please correct me if I'm wrong but it is darn near impossible to find IC with all the sheet metal in the way?........which in turn makes it impossible to find static RC. I'm getting ready to transform the front of my stock subframe from conventional spring and shock to coil over. Maybe I should p/u another stock subframe and start from there?

Also, when drawing the lines through the UCA & LCA's at the outside connection points of the arms are you drawing through the center of the connecting point at the top of spindle/ball joint?

Maybe I missed it somewhere but now that we know how to get roll center how do we find center of gravity?

Flash68

07-21-2013, 01:10 PM

Gaetano's case for the suspension sticky gets better with every one of Ron in Norcal's recent posts.

:underchair:

fleetus macmullitz

07-21-2013, 02:37 PM

Gaetano's case for the suspension sticky gets better with every one of Ron in Norcal's recent posts.

:underchair:

Keep tuning in to your favorite suspension forum.:D

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/forumdisplay.php4?f=38

Ron Sutton

07-21-2013, 03:56 PM

Ron

Starting with the first statement about looking at the car in two halves. Correct me if I am wrong but I'm assuming you are speaking about the need to tune each end of the cars roll resistance based on each ends independent RC and not that the effect at one end is independent of the other end of the car.

Rob,

Most of that statement is correct. Parts are not. One of my friends said, “Ron is a race car designer that did not go to engineering school, so he speaks car guy". Because I like to make complex things simple to understand, I’m going to explain this in layers, using car guy terms we all can relate to.

1. Each end of the car has a “mind of its own” about roll angle, due to differences front to rear … in track widths, CG heights, roll center heights, spring rates, shock valving & sway bar rates.

2. The ends of the car do “want to” roll differently … and each end would roll to its own desired roll angle … if there was a pivot in the middle of the car.

3. But there is not a pivot in the middle of the car … exactly. Chassis rigidity … specifically torsional rigidity … plays a role in how tied together the front & rear of the car are.

If the car with a 50/50 weight balance & had 100% chassis rigidity (it does not) … then the car would roll to an angle that averaged the roll angles of the two ends. In other words … if the front end “wants to” roll 1.5 degrees & the rear end “wants to” roll 2.5 degrees … if the car was 100% rigid & had a 50/50 weight balance, it would achieve an averaged roll angle of 2.0 degrees unilaterally.

But all car chassis flex or twist when the forces are different front & rear … including race car chassis. Stock production cars flex & twist a lot when high powered engines, grippy tires & performance suspensions are added … and drivers push them to their limits. Well designed race cars flex & twist very little … but they do flex & twist to a degree. Chassis designs differ …therefore so does the torsional rigidity differ between chassis brands & designs.

Without complicating the discussion by trying to quantify numbers … we could easily envision this example as a race car with a relatively stiff chassis achieving a 1.9 degree roll angle in the front & a 2.1 degree roll angle in the rear. This is just an example so everyone understands the concept. A more flexible car could & does achieve a higher degree of roll angle difference.

But … we still see the rear of this example car with a higher demand for roll angle … is “pulling” the front end with it. If we’re trying to get the car to run flatter … the solution is in tuning the rear suspension, not the front. So yes, we need to tune each end of the car independently … but so as to work together in harmony … because each end can & does affect the other end.

Did that make sense? Please feel free to ask about anything I didn’t state clearly enough.

.

Ron Sutton

07-21-2013, 03:57 PM

Part 2 of 3

Now would be a good time to discuss chassis rigidity. Like most complex things, it makes sense to peel the onion a layer at a time. So bear with me as cover several key points.

Key Note: In my explanation about chassis rigidity … I will refer to “energy loss.” Think of engine power as energy & speed as stored energy.

Rule of thumb on chassis rigidity:
The more rigid the chassis … the less energy loss the chassis experiences … the quicker & faster the car “can be” … if tuned optimally inside its handling “sweet spot.” But, the optimum handling sweet spot gets progressively smaller & smaller as chassis rigidity increases … as the car becomes more responsive to tuning changes with larger effects.

The less rigid the chassis … the more energy loss the chassis experiences … reducing how quick & fast the car can be … even when tuned optimally inside its handling “sweet spot.” But, the optimum handling sweet spot gets progressively larger & larger as chassis rigidity decreases … as the car becomes less responsive to tuning changes with smaller effects.

If the chassis is too stiff, the sweet spot gets super small & the car is too sensitive to changing track conditions. I bought a race car once like this. We used to say, “It’s the fastest car on the track for 10 laps. But as rubber gets laid down over the course of a main event, the car’s handling changed too much. That car was great for winning poles & but difficult to win races with.

On the other hand, if the chassis is too soft … often termed a “flexi-flyer” … the sweet spot is super wide … because the car is not very responsive to tuning changes. I’ve been hired to help tune on these cars and the driver doesn’t feel a 50# spring change.

Let’s talk chassis rigidity … but instead of trying to use torsional rigidity formulas & numbers, I’ll use generalizations that will make the concept easier to understand & discuss amongst us car guys. To describe levels of torsional rigidity let’s keep it simple by using these general terms, like a scale of stiffness in this range:

Extremely Stiff
Very Stiff
Moderately Stiff
Intermediate Stiffness
Moderately Flexible
Very Flexible
Extremely Flexible

And let’s embrace these terms are relative to the application. Here is an example …

In drag racing at the IHRA Pro/Stock & Pro/Mod level in the 1980’s … which raced mountain motor cars, with cubic inches ranging from 615” to 672” the “standard” Pro/Stock chassis design flexed too much, and was hurting 60’ times & therefore overall ¼ mile times. Chassis builders strengthened the torsional rigidity of the chassis by building a narrow version of a dragster chassis in the transmission & driveshaft tunnel area … connecting the 4-link to the rear motor plate. It basically added upper frame rails down the center of the cockpit along with uprights & diagonal braces connecting the two existing lower center frames rails with these new upper frame rails. It looks like the front half of a dragster chassis in the middle of the car.

There were called “Double Frame Rail” cars & measurably improved the 60’ & ¼ mile times of Mountain Motor IHRA Pro/Stock & Pro/Mod drag cars. When NHRA Pro/Stock racers bought & raced them, they didn’t go any quicker. In fact, they didn’t like them, because they became more finicky to tune the suspension & and went away from that design. (I do not know what they run today, as I haven’t been to a drag race since the end of 1987.)

So why the difference? Major differences in torque at launch. The typical NHRA Pro/Stock car achieved just under 500 cubic inches with a maximum bore of 4.625” & strokes around 3.700”. The 672” Mountain motors used the same bore … but 5.000” strokes. Even though they only made 80-100 more hp, the torque difference was HUGE … and the chassis experiences that torque at the drop of the clutch. :)

For the NHRA Pro/Stockers the standard Pro/Stock chassis was “Very Stiff” with minimal energy loss. The Double Frame Rail chassis was “Extremely Stiff” and too sensitive to track & tuning changes with its narrow sweet spot.

For the IHRA Pro/Stock & Pro/Mod racers running Mountain Motors, the standard Pro/Stock chassis was only “Moderately Stiff” … and while easier to tune with the wider sweet spot … suffered from some energy loss. The Double Frame Rail chassis was “Very Stiff” reducing energy loss, and making the cars quicker … but brought the sweet spot back to normal.

Just understand the car’s application … power, speed, car weight, etc, play a role in the desired chassis rigidity. There are many goals in designing a chassis, of which one key goal is designing the structure to minimize chassis flex & twist to a high degree … but not so much as to make the chassis hard to keep in the sweet spot of its suspension tuning window.

Here is an example of this …

Bob East of Beast Race Cars in Indy designs & builds some of the winningest cars in open wheel oval track racing. His Midget chassis have won a gazillion races. When I designed our Gen 2 Midget chassis for my race team, we studied Bob’s design. We initially kept his frame & cage layout, but moved most of the suspension points.

The cars were fast & had a wide sweet spot. We won races with it. After running it for a season, with our Engineers running data acquisition on our 4-6 race cars every outing, we could see where the chassis was flexing & how much. Frankly it was/is a great chassis for most racers, because the relatively wide sweet spot makes it easy to tune, & harder to “go off the range” as I call it. Because the sweet spot was wide … the chassis didn’t require a lot of tuning as track conditions changed. I suspect Bob received less customer complaints & had more happy customers due to this.

I was clear we were leaving some performance on the table through energy loss of the chassis flex. As a veteran tuner, I wasn't worried about our ability to "keep up" with the track changes. So in the off season, we redesigned it & built new chassis that stiffened the chassis in two key areas … and the car responded. It produced faster corner speeds & quicker lap times. The drivers noticed small tuning changes more. The sweet spot did narrow, but we didn’t go so far as to make the car “finicky.” But enough so, that we needed to tune the car every round to keep up with changing track conditions.

Because the chassis was more rigid, with less torsional flex & twist, the car required more tuning … but because it was more responsive, the tuning changes needed were small. We got the suspension set-ups so dialed in that tuning changes of 1/2 pound in tire pressure, 1/8” in roll center … OR … .050” in sway bar size difference was all that was needed. And we won a LOT more races.

.

Ron Sutton

07-21-2013, 03:58 PM

Part 3 of 3

(Continuation of Rob's questions)
A well built car should have a stiff chassis that allows the suspension to do it's work without the added variable of the frame flexing. But that stiff frame translates load from one end to the other.
Yes, but all chassis flex to a degree, as outlined above.

Looking at you diagram of roll axis it seems obvious that increasing the length of the moment arm at either end would introduce some additional roll at the opposite end as the frame resists twisting.
Yes, as outlined above.

If that line was a piece of pipe running through the car as I twisted one end clockwise the other end would follow in a clockwise direction.
Yes, as outlined above.

Is it the front that unloads the inner rear tire on corner entry and loads it on corner exit?
Yes & no. Under braking & cornering the car/chassis is “rocking” diagonally … meaning the outside front corner is compressing the most … therefore unloading the inside rear tire the most. But the rear is rolling too … actually at a slightly higher angle … so the inside rear tire loading is transferring to BOTH the outside rear tire and the outside front tire.

Achieving this to the correct degree is key to achieving a car with good turning ability. If you don’t do this enough, the car is tight or pushy on corner entry & middle. If you do it too much, the car gets loose on corner entry.

If the balance is correct, would work something like.

The front have enough roll resistance going into the corner to keep the front flat and load both tires.
The rear also have the amount needed to keep it flat as the front first turns in.
The front roll translated through the axis provides enough added force to unload the inner rear tire which helps prevent overloading the outside front tire.
As you unwind the front on exit and that translated roll force diminishes the inner rear tire in again loaded for better corner exit.

You’re really close. Some of your terms are not completely accurate, so I’ll reword it slightly to provide a “tad” more clarity.

The front needs enough roll resistance going into the corner to keep the front flatter to better work both front tires.
The rear also needs enough roll resistance, but slightly less than the front as the car first turns into the corner.
The front & rear roll angles translated through the axis work together to unload the inner rear tire which helps the car turn better & properly loading the outside front tire.
As you unwind the steering on corner exit and that translated roll force diminishes the inner rear tire is again loaded for better corner exit traction.

In you statement about tuning the rear I think what you are doing is tuning the rear so that is have just enough of a moment arm to be overcome by the force from the front but not so much where it is overloading the front.
I apologize, but I’m not clear on what you’re saying.

When I am designing a baseline suspension set-up, I use FLLD calculations. FLLD stands for Front Lateral Load Distribution. But hey … we’re car guys. I like to think of FLLD percentage calculations as simply a way of quantifying a car’s front roll resistance.

There is of course a RLLD for the rear … as a way of quantifying a car’s rear roll resistance. Remember, more roll resistance = less roll angle.

Please don’t confuse these terms … FLLD, RLLD or Lateral Load Distribution with “roll couple.” They are similar in meaning but different in accuracy. FLLD/RLLD calculations are more accurate in determining the front & rear roll angles of cars … simply because they take into account all the factors that “roll couple” does not.

A quick primer …
FLLD/RLLD is stated in percentages, not pounds. The two always add up to 100% as they are comparing front to rear roll resistance split. Knowing the percentages alone, will not provide clarity as to how much the car will roll … just how the front & rear roll in comparison to each other. The term “Total Roll Stiffness” is expressed in foot-pounds per degree of roll angle … and it does guide us on how much the car will roll.

So you pick suspension spring rates, sway bar rates & shock valving* … and choose geometry settings like track width & roll center to achieve:
Less roll resistance for the end of the car you want to roll more.
More roll resistance for the end of the car you want to roll less.
* Shocks do not factor into FLLD or RLLD, but do play a real world role in the rate the car rolls.

We typically want slightly more roll angle in the rear & less roll angle in the front of the car … and therefore need lower roll resistance in the rear & higher roll resistance in the front, but you need to account for the car’s front to rear weight bias. When I design a car, my baseline is to have 4-5% higher FLLD% than the car’s front weight percentage.

So, for these cars:
NASCAR Modified with 48.5% front weight, we start with 52.5-53.5% front roll resistance (FLLD).
If a car was truly 50/50 weight bias, I’d start at 54-55% front roll resistance (FLLD).
Remember, I worked out your Torino suspension set-up based on a 51.5% front weight bias, and therefore have yours at 56.5% as a baseline to tune from.

Now that’s a starting point. As a tuning guide only, because there are several “exceptions” … so TYPICALLY:
a. Decreasing the front roll resistance (FLLD) … increases the front roll angle … and loosens the car during corner entry & middle.

b. Increasing the rear roll resistance (RLLD) … decreases the rear roll angle … and loosens the car during corner entry & middle.

c. Increasing the front roll resistance (FLLD) … decreases the front roll angle … and tightens the car during corner entry & middle.

d. Decreasing the rear roll resistance (RLLD) … increases the rear roll angle … and tightens the car during corner entry & middle.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rob, as a side note:
Moving your rear panhard bar one inch changes the roll resistance by 1.8% … which is significant … and why I am such a fan of having it adjustable. Raising it achieves “b” … and lowering it achieves “d” in the guide above.

I'll wait on the answer to this to ensure I fully understand it before I ask what effect wheelbase would have on this relationship.
Whenever you’re ready.

Let me go find my hat I may be wearing it soon.
No hat needed. You are grasping this very well. Sometimes I don’t explain things clearly or use the wrong terms, but I’m working on improving that.

.

carbuff

07-21-2013, 04:37 PM

No hat needed. You are grasping this very well. Sometimes I don’t explain things clearly or use the wrong terms, but I’m working on improving that.

Ron,

I don't know why you think that, but you are doing an excellent job of explaining all of this in my opinion! You should collect all of this information and publish it in a book! (after you've finished writing it all here for us to read first, of course! :) ) I've read a few chassis books in the past, but none have helped me understand this all the way your few posts here have...

:thumbsup:

Sieg

07-21-2013, 04:49 PM

X's 2 :thumbsup:

Ron you've done an exceptional job of explaining a complex component system in comprehendible layman's terminology. It takes a fair amount of time just to compose your posts in that manner and it is truly appreciated.

Ron Sutton

07-21-2013, 04:53 PM

This is great stuff right hear Ron and please correct me if I'm wrong but it is darn near impossible to find IC with all the sheet metal in the way?........which in turn makes it impossible to find static RC.
Well ... we're not trying to touch the I/C location, nor are we running the lines to intersect physically on the car.

We're doing it in software. You have to measure x, y & z of all the pivot points of the UCA's & LCA's along with locating the centers of the 4 ball joints.

If your car has the inner fenders, it can tedious work & challenging to get accurate measurements ... but it's very doable. Lance Hamilton just did it (with my guidance) on his '85 Monte Carlo, so I could work out his front suspension geometry, roll center, camber gain, etc. He had access to a drive on lift that was fairly level. That made it much easier for him.

It won't be difficult for me at all ... because I'll be sitting at home in the air conditioning. It will be tougher for you under the car. :sarcasm_smiley: :lmao:

I'm getting ready to transform the front of my stock subframe from conventional spring and shock to coil over. Maybe I should p/u another stock subframe and start from there?
I find they vary too much. Lance's was off 1/4" at one point that shot his roll center over 9" to the left. That's a big deal.

Also, when drawing the lines through the UCA & LCA's at the outside connection points of the arms are you drawing through the center of the connecting point at the top of spindle/ball joint?
No. The line goes from the center of the control arm pivot ... on the frame ... through the center of the ball joint pivot. Look at the photo below. if you decide to do this, I'll be happy to provide you with a game plan & instructions.

Maybe I missed it somewhere but now that we know how to get roll center how do we find center of gravity?
I haven't outlined how to yet. I can at some point. Maybe when we start the "General Chassis Tuning" threads ... next week.

Frankly, of the two ... RC or CG ... finding RC is way more important, because your CG is where it is. But your RC is a bigger variable ... and you can make significant tuning changes by moving the roll centers.

.

Ron Sutton

07-21-2013, 04:54 PM

Ron,

I don't know why you think that, but you are doing an excellent job of explaining all of this in my opinion! You should collect all of this information and publish it in a book! (after you've finished writing it all here for us to read first, of course! :) ) I've read a few chassis books in the past, but none have helped me understand this all the way your few posts here have...

:thumbsup:

That's a good idea. Thanks for the compliment.

.

Ron Sutton

07-21-2013, 05:11 PM

carbuff

07-21-2013, 07:25 PM

Ron Sutton

07-21-2013, 09:33 PM

Ron, another general question.

When taking the measurements to perform all of these calculations, what amount of "error" can you tolerate? There are so many variables here, and the easy answer would be none. But in the real world, that's just not possible. Even down to the clearances for bolts through holes, 'slop' in the various components or the suspension components, play in the steering rack, etc will add up to easing hundreths of an inch in some cases...

So I'm curious, with all of this great information and technical analysis, at the end of the day, how do you deal with those variables, and how much tolerance do you build in to your systems?

I can't say we approach the measuring project with any tolerance in mind. When we're doing the process on an existing car, literally on the floor, we use tape measures, plumb bobs, levels, digital inclimeters & even lasers. We measure to the 1/32" where we can.

On our chassis jig, which has a surface within .003" ... and it's easy to get right at things, we use these really long 18" digital calipers, so we're measuring in the thousandths.

It's funny, you can be off on some measurements 1/4" ... and the roll center doesn't change. And on other measurements 1/16" makes a noticeable difference.

I always advise guys to be as accurate as you can, which requires patience more than anything. If you can get your measurements within a 1/16", you're doing good.

Also, When we're measuring a car we're running ... we want the real numbers ... warts & all ... because we have to deal with whatever is "out" or "off" about the geometry.

.

.

Track Junky

07-22-2013, 09:44 PM

So Rob, I'm wondering after all of this potent suspension intel are you still going to be runing 285's up front? :lostmarbles: :lol:

FETorino

07-22-2013, 09:51 PM

So Rob, I'm wondering after all of this potent suspension intel are you still going to be runing 285's up front? :lostmarbles: :lol:

Yep

The largest wheel I can fit up front is an 18x10.5". The best fit in tires for that is a diminutive 285 35 18.:lmao:

I will suffer the consequences of the miniscule amount of grip that tiny tire will provide up front.

I am making a couple of small changes at the rear of my car based on all the intel.

And none of them include leaf springs.:action-smiley-027:

:cheers:

Sieg

07-22-2013, 09:57 PM

I found your solution!

http://www.speedhunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/red1_0tAh_3.jpg

Wissing72

07-22-2013, 10:18 PM

I found your solution!

http://www.speedhunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/red1_0tAh_3.jpg

WTF!!!??:superhack: :buttkick:

Track Junky

07-22-2013, 10:22 PM

Yep

The largest wheel I can fit up front is an 18x10.5". The best fit in tires for that is a diminutive 285 35 18.:lmao:

I will suffer the consequences of the miniscule amount of grip that tiny tire will provide up front.

I am making a couple of small changes at the rear of my car based on all the intel.

And none of them include leaf springs.:action-smiley-027:

:cheers:

LOL.......Touche.

Just to be fair I'll start to post up a couple of changes I'll hopefully get done before my August 11th track day later in the week. I'm sure you'll find something to jab me about(other than leaf springs....that cards been played) :cheers:

FETorino

07-22-2013, 10:49 PM

LOL.......Touche.

Just to be fair I'll start to post up a couple of changes I'll hopefully get done before my August 11th track day later in the week. I'm sure you'll find something to jab me about(other than leaf springs....that cards been played) :cheers:

Well for the near future your lap times are guaranteed to be way faster than mine no matter what you do.

It may be possible to beat you with a 195 45 15 :lol:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/superlight_main00_zpsd0ede11f.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/superlight_main00_zpsd0ede11f.jpg.html)

:cheers:

Track Junky

07-23-2013, 08:37 AM

Well for the near future your lap times are guaranteed to be way faster than mine no matter what you do.

It may be possible to beat you with a 195 45 15 :lol:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/superlight_main00_zpsd0ede11f.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/superlight_main00_zpsd0ede11f.jpg.html)

:cheers:

I hate to admit this but awhile back I was doing some testing on Salmon Falls road and caught someone driving one of these up Salmon Falls road. I got up on his tail and started pushing him up the hill. It was fun trying to watch him shake me off his tail as he was breaking it loose around the corners.

Quite honestly, properly tuned those things are fast and there are alot of guys that track them but it's annoying to be on the track with guys that own those things and are inexperienced.

In my earlier years while training in HPDE one of the instructors took me out in his race car....and we had one get loose in front of us. It spun about a 140 and as we tried to race around him his car backed into the back side of us. Nothing serious but did take some paint off the back of the Camaro.

Flash68

07-23-2013, 01:42 PM

Ron Sutton

07-23-2013, 04:45 PM

badmatt

07-23-2013, 05:02 PM

^ want that car...

Sieg

07-23-2013, 06:15 PM

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ams80RQ9qgk/TeRKYnF8wkI/AAAAAAAAAGE/6RA_t9G2VjY/s320/Longboard-vs-shortboard.jpg

Torino on the left........Camaro on the right. :D

Ron Sutton

07-23-2013, 06:36 PM

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ams80RQ9qgk/TeRKYnF8wkI/AAAAAAAAAGE/6RA_t9G2VjY/s320/Longboard-vs-shortboard.jpg

Torino on the left........Camaro on the right. :D

:poke: :stirthepot: :mock: :twak:

.

FETorino

07-23-2013, 07:09 PM

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/934629_573616602689500_1351798195_n_zpsf7427507.jp g (http://s236.photobucket.com/user/flash68/media/934629_573616602689500_1351798195_n_zpsf7427507.jp g.html)

Are those 275s on the front? :lmao:

I owe you DG:warning:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ams80RQ9qgk/TeRKYnF8wkI/AAAAAAAAAGE/6RA_t9G2VjY/s320/Longboard-vs-shortboard.jpg

Torino on the left........Camaro on the right. :D

Lemmings :bigun2:

Some times you just got to dare to have some style. Don't be afraid to get out to the edge that is where the thrill is at.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/noseriding-e1338262831812_zps035049c9.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/noseriding-e1338262831812_zps035049c9.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/pettychrishusseyphoto_zpsfbaa9cb8.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/pettychrishusseyphoto_zpsfbaa9cb8.jpg.html)
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/torOle98Comp_zpsd1ba776d.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/torOle98Comp_zpsd1ba776d.jpg.html)
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/Foyt69Riverside-vi_zps311e5a88.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/Foyt69Riverside-vi_zps311e5a88.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/69-Ford-Torino-Cobra-DV-10-AI-002.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/69-Ford-Torino-Cobra-DV-10-AI-002.jpg.html)

:cheers:

intocarss

07-25-2013, 08:26 AM

YEAH BABY!! We went from fuzzy pics of a Torino & some parts to.... GREAT suspension tech, surfing, old school NASCAR, a crazy green buggy and more pics of Camaros

Who ever knew that a Ford thread could be this awsome!!!!! :excited:

Sieg

07-25-2013, 08:31 AM

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/noseriding-e1338262831812_zps035049c9.jpg
Robbison............is that you?

FETorino

07-25-2013, 06:48 PM

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/noseriding-e1338262831812_zps035049c9.jpg
Robbison............is that you?

I wish I was that stylish I'd be getting paid to surf.:relax: My style is way more vanilla.:shakehead:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/Mex.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/Mex.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/Nicas-6_zpse56ec2ed.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/Nicas-6_zpse56ec2ed.jpg.html)

badmatt

07-25-2013, 07:41 PM

Wish I could Surf.

FETorino

07-26-2013, 07:14 PM

Wish I could Surf.

Come on out and visit. I'll take you to a mellow break to give it a try. When you score weather, waves and lack of crowds all at once there isn't much if anything that can compare.:thumbsup:

I swapped my perfectly new Modlite hubs with ARP studs for these new Modlite hubs with no studs. I must be up to no good.:headscratch:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/hub_zpsdd0b7c43.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/hub_zpsdd0b7c43.jpg.html)

:cheers:

Ron Sutton

07-27-2013, 11:06 AM

Where do you surf?

I have good friends that live in Ventura & surf often.

.

Matt@BOS

07-27-2013, 12:46 PM

Come on out and visit. I'll take you to a mellow break to give it a try. When you score weather, waves and lack of crowds all at once there isn't much if anything that can compare.:thumbsup:

I swapped my perfectly new Modlite hubs with ARP studs for these new Modlite hubs with no studs. I must be up to no good.:headscratch:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/hub_zpsdd0b7c43.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/hub_zpsdd0b7c43.jpg.html)

:cheers:

I don't know, but I suspect you are up to something hellaflush. And metric, perhaps.

FETorino

07-27-2013, 03:14 PM

Where do you surf?

I have good friends that live in Ventura & surf often.

.

Well I live in Orange County and work in LA County so I usually lurk around the Huntington Beach/seal beach stretch. I like heading South on the weekends to Trestles, Oceanside harbor and Cardiff area are favorite haunts of mine.

I've had a bunch of Epic days at C street and some of the grinding breaks of the Ventura Harbor Jettys.

I've gotten in the water as far North as Salmon river above Bodega bay all the way down to Quatro Casas in Baja.

Plus some trips to Hawaii, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Mainland Mex.:topic:

If I remember correctly we were all discussing the advantages of Torino ownership:lol:

I don't know, but I suspect you are up to something hellaflush. And metric, perhaps.

Always Hellafulsh but not Metric.:lmao:

:cheers:

intocarss

07-29-2013, 01:45 PM

Damn you got some big ass hands...nice hub too

Ron Sutton

07-29-2013, 07:25 PM

Jerry,

You racing this weekend?

.

FETorino

07-29-2013, 09:58 PM

Damn you got some big ass hands...nice hub too

I've heard the term paw used before.:_paranoid

:cheers:

intocarss

07-29-2013, 10:18 PM

Jerry,

You racing this weekend?

.Yes, Ventura on Thursday night.. you coming out?

I've heard the term paw used before.:_paranoid

:cheers: You animal!!

Ron Sutton

08-02-2013, 03:52 PM

Hey Guys,

I'm going riding quads with my girls now ... so I'll catch up with everyone when I get back Monday.

Take care all !!! :cheers:

FETorino

08-03-2013, 08:06 PM

Hey Guys,

I'm going riding quads with my girls now ... so I'll catch up with everyone when I get back Monday.

Take care all !!! :cheers:

Ron

With you gone will anybody know what this is:headscratch: :lmao:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/water_zps2ecffe6f.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/water_zps2ecffe6f.jpg.html)

I grabbed this used at a giveaway price so I'm entertaining the idea of using it.

:cheers:

Greg from Aus

08-04-2013, 01:38 AM

Come on Rob, give us a hint.

65_LS1_T56

08-04-2013, 05:15 AM

:y0!:
It's a Knuter Valve, definitely.

jarhead

08-04-2013, 06:11 AM

Ron

With you gone will anybody know what this is:headscratch: :lmao:

I grabbed this used at a giveaway price so I'm entertaining the idea of using it.

:cheers:

hmmm, it will surely end up lubricated with something?

intocarss

08-04-2013, 06:37 AM

It's an adjustable aribastat lubricating device

Sieg

08-04-2013, 07:02 AM

Ron

With you gone will anybody know what this is:headscratch: :lmao:

It's a high performance pump for your secret trim tab system.

http://easyacdc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Trim-panel1.jpg

:welcome3:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-vNK2gNh/0/M/i-vNK2gNh-M.jpg

FETorino

08-04-2013, 11:54 AM

Come on Rob, give us a hint.

:y0!:
It's a Knuter Valve, definitely.

hmmm, it will surely end up lubricated with something?

It's an adjustable aribastat lubricating device

It's a high performance pump for your secret trim tab system.

http://easyacdc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Trim-panel1.jpg

:welcome3:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-vNK2gNh/0/M/i-vNK2gNh-M.jpg

And there was a 69 Camaro shell up for grabs as a prize if anyone knew.:confused59:

(Contest Disclaimer )Contest rules require all entires be submitted on a notarized form prior to the start of the contest and be accompanied by a sizable donation above the value of the prize either directly to my bank or to the vendor of my choice to keep me out of debt. Ron in Nor CA CANNOT PLAY.

These pictures should make it clearer. And NO Sieg the threaded end isn't for the bow thruster controller.:buttkick:

:cheers:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/water2_zps6a7e6b44.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/water2_zps6a7e6b44.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/water3_zps3fd92025.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/water3_zps3fd92025.jpg.html)

Flash68

08-04-2013, 11:58 AM

It's a gadget that makes Betsy thinks she's lighter than she really is?

intocarss

08-04-2013, 07:10 PM

YOU GET MANICURES DON'T YOU:hairpullout:

is it some kind of pump, is it some kind of regulater?

FETorino

08-04-2013, 09:09 PM

YOU GET MANICURES DON'T YOU:hairpullout:

is it some kind of pump, is it some kind of regulater?

Life as a professional hand model ain't easy JerDog.:lmao:

I just try to live day by day and exhibit the self controll Ray didn't :lmao:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/hand_zpsc8ee1581.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/hand_zpsc8ee1581.jpg.html)

BniKoHRlMi0

Sieg

08-04-2013, 09:32 PM

Life as a professional hand model ain't easy JerDog.:lmao:

I forgot how into personal hygiene you are..........obviously it's a flow gauge and regulator for your bidet.

67zo6Camaro

08-04-2013, 10:13 PM

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k514/Fab50Three/IMG_5759_zps9f8b2eb0.jpg

I had a visitor the other night. I enjoy his company...... However, it has gotten a little awkward recently.

Well, he kind of creeps me out.... Always staring at the back end of my project cars that I'm working on.

Weird thing, is now that I mention it...... he has been staring at all Camaros. I caught him staring at STANCE.

Um,,,,,

FETorino

08-04-2013, 10:33 PM

I had a visitor the other night. I enjoy his company...... However, it has gotten a little awkward recently.

Well, he kind of creeps me out.... Always staring at the back end of my project cars that I'm working on.

Weird thing, is now that I mention it...... he has been staring at all Camaros. I caught him staring at STANCE.

Um,,,,,

I just keep trying to figure out what all the fascination with those things is :lostmarbles: :lol:

I keep looking at them and thinking WHY? :headscratch:

:cheers:

Sieg

08-04-2013, 11:05 PM

I just keep trying to figure out what all the fascination with those things is :lostmarbles: :lol:

I keep looking at them and thinking WHY? :headscratch:

:cheers:

:headscratch: You don't look confused in this pic...........

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/RS-Perf/ROB.jpg

:peepwall:

FETorino

08-04-2013, 11:32 PM

:headscratch: You don't look confused in this pic...........

:peepwall:

I'm laughing about not being able to sit up straight without hitting my head.:P

:cheers:

Ron Sutton

08-05-2013, 06:40 AM

And there was a 69 Camaro shell up for grabs as a prize if anyone knew.:confused59:

(Contest Disclaimer )Contest rules require all entires be submitted on a notarized form prior to the start of the contest and be accompanied by a sizable donation above the value of the prize either directly to my bank or to the vendor of my choice to keep me out of debt. Ron in Nor CA CANNOT PLAY.

These pictures should make it clearer. And NO Sieg the threaded end isn't for the bow thruster controller.:buttkick:

:cheers:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/water2_zps6a7e6b44.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/water2_zps6a7e6b44.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/water3_zps3fd92025.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/water3_zps3fd92025.jpg.html)

Haha.

It's a bad ass Waterman cable drive fuel pump ... same as used by NASCAR teams before fuel injection.

Where are you planning to mount it?

.

Sieg

08-05-2013, 06:56 AM

Where are you planning to mount it?

.

:y0!:

I've got a few suggestions. :whistling:

Matt@BOS

08-05-2013, 07:28 AM

Haha.

It's a bad ass Waterman cable drive fuel pump ... same as used by NASCAR teams before fuel injection.

Where are you planning to mount it?

.

And here I was thinking the part must have somehow related to aiding in hellaflush tire mounting.

intocarss

08-05-2013, 08:48 AM

Haha.

It's a bad ass Waterman cable drive fuel pump ... same as used by NASCAR teams before fuel injection.

Where are you planning to mount it?

.

I see Rob brought in a "ringer" :warning:

Ron Sutton

08-05-2013, 09:18 AM

:y0!:

I've got a few suggestions. :whistling:

:disgusted: :rofl:

Sieg

08-05-2013, 09:44 AM

:disgusted: :rofl:

What?

Is your mind in the gutter this morning?

:lmao:

Ron Sutton

08-05-2013, 05:29 PM

What?

Is your mind in the gutter this morning?

:lmao:

Must have been. I didn't want to think about where you were going to stick it. :lol:

FETorino

08-05-2013, 09:58 PM

It's a gadget that makes Betsy thinks she's lighter than she really is?

She will certainly think she is light but we all know she weighs more than a train:rolleyes:

Haha.

It's a bad ass Waterman cable drive fuel pump ... same as used by NASCAR teams before fuel injection.

Where are you planning to mount it?

.

My original plan was to run a KSE Tandem. I like the clean simple packaging and the simple bulletproof nature of a gearator pump. We use them for oil pumps for 100s of thousands of miles so why not fuel.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/KSC1064-XXX_zpse06c190b.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/KSC1064-XXX_zpse06c190b.jpg.html)

But the Waterman cable driven is a really trick piece and I really like the idea of the pump out back just in front of the fuel cell.

The Waterman I have is a used piece so this weekend I will tear it apart and check the housing to ensure there is no pitting. If the pump looks good I will start shopping for a cable adapter and a PS pump.

And here I was thinking the part must have somehow related to aiding in hellaflush tire mounting.

That Waterman pump is HellaFlush.

:y0!:

I've got a few suggestions. :whistling:

Were you thinking in the trunk?:lmao:

Ron Sutton

08-09-2013, 01:25 PM

How did that pump look internally?

.

DFRESH

08-09-2013, 02:47 PM

What is "Hellaflush"? Is that a new toilet that can handle guys like Shaq?

67goatman455

08-09-2013, 04:06 PM

you guys aren't saying it right.

It's Herrafrush

you have to talk Asian

Matt@BOS

08-09-2013, 08:16 PM

What is "Hellaflush"? Is that a new toilet that can handle guys like Shaq?

You, know how you like to tuck your wheels well into the fenders? Well, hellaflush guys like to tuck the fender lip in between the tire and the lip of the wheel. Yes, just think about that for a second.

What I love about this site is just how accepting everyone is of different things. Not only does Rob have a FORD, be he also likes narrow tires on wide wheels, and yet everyone welcomes him. :lateral:

FETorino

08-09-2013, 10:42 PM

You, know how you like to tuck your wheels well into the fenders? Well, hellaflush guys like to tuck the fender lip in between the tire and the lip of the wheel. Yes, just think about that for a second.

What I love about this site is just how accepting everyone is of different things. Not only does Rob have a FORD, be he also likes narrow tires on wide wheels, and yet everyone welcomes him. :lateral:

Yea those skinny 285s stretched onto the 10.5s and tiny 345s racked onto the 13s.:lmao:

DFRESH

08-10-2013, 12:01 AM

You, know how you like to tuck your wheels well into the fenders? Well, hellaflush guys like to tuck the fender lip in between the tire and the lip of the wheel. Yes, just think about that for a second.

What I love about this site is just how accepting everyone is of different things. Not only does Rob have a FORD, be he also likes narrow tires on wide wheels, and yet everyone welcomes him. :lateral:

I'm pretty sure we need a photo of that in this thread for a visual.

DF

DFRESH

08-10-2013, 12:02 AM

you guys aren't saying it right.

It's Herrafrush

you have to talk Asian

LOL :lol:

Sieg

08-10-2013, 03:42 AM

I'm pretty sure we need a photo of that in this thread for a visual.

DF

http://www.ssr-wheels.com/gallery/image.axd?picture=2011%2F6%2Fthumb_04953edited.png

Couldn't find a herrafrush Torino :bang:

Sieg

08-10-2013, 03:54 AM

I'm pretty sure we need a photo of that in this thread for a visual.

DF

http://cdn.stanceworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/hellaflush-japan-2011-by-lozzz-213.jpg

Couldn't find a herrafrush Torino :bang:

FETorino

08-10-2013, 10:00 PM

http://www.ssr-wheels.com/gallery/image.axd?picture=2011%2F6%2Fthumb_04953edited.png

Couldn't find a herrafrush Torino :bang:

:topic:

you guys aren't saying it right.

It's Herrafrush

you have to talk Asian

:bitchslap: :twak: : bad taste :guns:

How did that pump look internally?

.

Well good and bad? :lol:

These pumps are elegant in their simplicity.

This is the optional side pickup manifold is what I think they call it. It has two long studs and one small allen bolt that attaches it to the pump housing and two small o-rings around the fuel passages.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2060_zpsd7a62afd.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2060_zpsd7a62afd.jpg.html)

The housing is machined out of AL and hard anodized. The drive shaft and the secondary shaft ride in 4 small roller bearings. One on each half of the housing.

The good is my housing looks great. Clean with no pitting or corrosion to be found. The pump gears are shimmed on the shaft, I presume to obtain spot on operating height within the two steel plates that surround them within the housing. There the gears in the shim stack have a small amount of vertical play on the shafts but don't rock or move horizontally on the shafts. So I assume they are within operating tolerances and normal.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2061_zps5eab8f26.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2061_zps5eab8f26.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2064_zpsf3e73ce4.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2064_zpsf3e73ce4.jpg.html)

Now some bad

The main shaft has some bluing where it rides in the bearing. The bearing also has a roller or two with a faint coloring to them. So it appears I have one of four bearing bad in the housing.

Scratching the shaft with my fingernail (yes JerDog my manicurist would be horrified:hairpullout: ) I don't feel any scoring and no pitting is evident. I checked the shaft with a mic and there isn't any difference in Dia so I'm pretty sure just a bearing swap and I'm in business.

I think:headscratch:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2065_zps56b82d57.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2065_zps56b82d57.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2067_zpsc468d8d7.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2067_zpsc468d8d7.jpg.html)

:cheers:

Flash68

08-10-2013, 10:16 PM

Dude that pump is neat-o. Definitely pro tracking.. I mean Pro Touring. :sieg:

Would be very cool if you decided to run it.

MX145

08-11-2013, 08:46 AM

Wow! That is a niece piece!

Ron Sutton

08-11-2013, 09:38 AM

Well good and bad? :lol:

These pumps are elegant in their simplicity.
Yes, part of what makes them so durable.

This is the optional side pickup manifold is what I think they call it. It has two long studs and one small allen bolt that attaches it to the pump housing and two small o-rings around the fuel passages.

The housing is machined out of AL and hard anodized. The drive shaft and the secondary shaft ride in 4 small roller bearings. One on each half of the housing.

The good is my housing looks great. Clean with no pitting or corrosion to be found.
That's the key. Everything else is replacable.

The pump gears are shimmed on the shaft, I presume to obtain spot on operating height within the two steel plates that surround them within the housing. There the gears in the shim stack have a small amount of vertical play on the shafts but don't rock or move horizontally on the shafts. So I assume they are within operating tolerances and normal.

Now some bad

The main shaft has some bluing where it rides in the bearing. The bearing also has a roller or two with a faint coloring to them. So it appears I have one of four bearing bad in the housing.

Scratching the shaft with my fingernail (yes JerDog my manicurist would be horrified:hairpullout: ) I don't feel any scoring and no pitting is evident. I checked the shaft with a mic and there isn't any difference in Dia so I'm pretty sure just a bearing swap and I'm in business.

I think:headscratch:

:cheers:

Yes. New bearings & lube. Micro polish those shafts & put it back together.

I PM'd you about the bearings, but now that I see the photos, our Waterman pumps are different. So ignore that message.

FETorino

08-15-2013, 07:15 PM

Yes. New bearings & lube. Micro polish those shafts & put it back together.

I PM'd you about the bearings, but now that I see the photos, our Waterman pumps are different. So ignore that message.

So I gave Waterman call. I can send the pump to them and they will rebuild and flow it for $110 + parts which a set of 4 bearings runs $54.

$40 for the pump + $110 + $54 = $204 for a fresh fuel pump ready to run. WTH I'm in, I bought a cable.

I just need the adapter plate for the back of the PS pump and I'm set. actually I need to start shopping for a PS pump.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/cable_zps4a862f00.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/cable_zps4a862f00.jpg.html)

Ron Sutton

08-15-2013, 07:48 PM

Cool. Good move. Did you talk to Allan ?

FETorino

08-15-2013, 08:08 PM

Cool. Good move. Did you talk to Allan ?

Yes sir I did.:D

Rick D

08-15-2013, 08:11 PM

Man this thread is getting way to high tech for me! Rob I thought you were just building a Ford?? :mock:

Flash68

08-17-2013, 10:14 PM

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/photo_001_zps31b07737.jpg (http://s236.photobucket.com/user/flash68/media/photo_001_zps31b07737.jpg.html)

intocarss

08-17-2013, 10:45 PM

^^^ WHERE'S IT GOING???^^^^

:lostmarbles:

Ron Sutton

08-18-2013, 11:26 AM

Yes sir I did.:D

Alan at Waterman is a good guy. Besides being super knowledgeable, he really cares.

We had a USAC Midget we took on trade ... just planned to resell it ... and ended up racing it. It had a fuel pump cable failure during Friday's practice at Stockton 99 Speedway. This car ran the "small/long" cable ... so our spare "big/medium length" cable wouldn't fit.

I called Alan late Friday. He made us a custom cable in 30 minutes & Alan got one of the Waterman employes to drive the cable from the Santa Rosa area to us Saturday morning.

Saved the weekend. :)

Greg from Aus

08-18-2013, 04:05 PM

That looks like a sweet bit of gear, very race. So how does it drive from a power steering pump?

FETorino

08-18-2013, 04:23 PM

That looks like a sweet bit of gear, very race. So how does it drive from a power steering pump?

As long as your PS pump has the three hole pattern and a hex drive on the back of the shaft you just use an adapter plate.

I was going to run a KSE tandem pump which is a PS/Fuel combo with a phelonic heat barrier in between the two halve.

Researching that option I saw a lot of guys substituting the Waterman pump on the tandem set up. :headscratch:

Then I saw the divorced style cable pumps and got hooked on the idea. :D

Add to that the Waterman cable pumps were used by the top finishing NASCAR teams the last few years and I'm hopelessly hooked on the idea.:yes:

:cheers:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/watermanadapter_zps07ae9094.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/watermanadapter_zps07ae9094.jpg.html)

intocarss

08-18-2013, 05:21 PM

yup yup.... you're gona need all that light weight stuff!!

67zo6Camaro

08-18-2013, 09:25 PM

I'm pretty sure we need a photo of that in this thread for a visual.

DF

Warning!..... Off Topic because not much else is going on around here. (Dave told me to do it... said something about you pooping in his thread) lol

I been told that Matt and Rob both have a thing for the "HellaFlush" movement. Apparently they text back and forth pictures of cars with "HellaFlush" and discuss which ones they would choose.

Some more examples found at a car show in San Diego near Matt.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k514/Fab50Three/Inspirational/050_zps07a48d9e.jpg

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k514/Fab50Three/Inspirational/039_zps2b5cb1db.jpg

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k514/Fab50Three/Inspirational/037_zps70eca01c.jpg

67zo6Camaro

08-18-2013, 09:31 PM

Also I have a new found appreciation for Rob.... as he likes to secretly work on Camaros.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k514/Fab50Three/Inspirational/023_zps2cca2c51.jpg

Matt@BOS

08-18-2013, 09:45 PM

I can't believe I went auto crossing today. Hella flush + Green Flash brewery = perfection. I completely forgot about the show so I decided to spend my day picking up cones for miata drivers.

Flash68

08-18-2013, 10:01 PM

Also I have a new found appreciation for Rob.... as he likes to secretly work on Camaros.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k514/Fab50Three/Inspirational/023_zps2cca2c51.jpg

That's gonna make you at least 1.5 sec slower... whatever he's doing.

I can't believe I went auto crossing today. Hella flush + Green Flash brewery = perfection. I completely forgot about the show so I decided to spend my day picking up cones for miata drivers.

At least you got some good beer.

Rob, you shoulda just got one of these:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/null_zps1a2aff3d.jpg (http://s236.photobucket.com/user/flash68/media/null_zps1a2aff3d.jpg.html)

Matt@BOS

08-18-2013, 10:06 PM

Dave, I didn't end up having any time to drop by. Instead Rob and I had to live vicariously through Brett.

Flash68

08-18-2013, 10:12 PM

Dave, I didn't end up having any time to drop by. Instead Rob and I had to live vicariously through Brett.

Oh the horror. :eek:

I think Rob has been living vicariously through others since his registration on Lateral G back in 2007. :hitaxeonthehead:

Matt@BOS

08-18-2013, 11:51 PM

Oh the horror. :eek:

I think Rob has been living vicariously through others since his registration on Lateral G back in 2007. :hitaxeonthehead:

And it probably culminated with him working on the Fab 53 Camaro. :lol:

fleetus macmullitz

08-19-2013, 05:20 AM

Oh the horror. :eek:

I think Rob has been living vicariously through others since his registration on Lateral G back in 2007. :hitaxeonthehead:

Like the rest of us, Rob sees GW living vicariously through Charlie L. and just thought it was the right thing to do. ;)

And now we can do the same with David Pozzi and that lil Lola. :cool:³

jarhead

08-19-2013, 10:32 AM

I think I had seen this version in the "Eastwood" catalog. It is made for rolling fender lips while driving :thumbsup:

Warning!..... Off Topic because not much else is going on around here. (Dave told me to do it... said something about you pooping in his thread) lol

I been told that Matt and Rob both have a thing for the "HellaFlush" movement. Apparently they text back and forth pictures of cars with "HellaFlush" and discuss which ones they would choose.

Some more examples found at a car show in San Diego near Matt.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k514/Fab50Three/Inspirational/037_zps70eca01c.jpg

preston

08-19-2013, 12:27 PM

FETorino

08-19-2013, 07:05 PM

I didn't meticulously read thorugh the last few pages so ignore me if I'm off base, but if you are planning on running a P/S pump as part of the dry sump pump system, I think you will be disappointed in the P/S action at low engine speeds. The normal P/S pump is spinning faster or at least equal to the front crank speed. Running if off the back of a dry sump pump you are running it quite a bit slower than engine speed, it may result in a lack of assist at low speeds where you need it most.

So I might have mis-understood what you're intending to do, but something to think about.

My original plan was to run a KSE Tandem. I like the clean simple packaging and the simple bulletproof nature of a gearator pump. We use them for oil pumps for 100s of thousands of miles so why not fuel.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/KSC1064-XXX_zpse06c190b.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/KSC1064-XXX_zpse06c190b.jpg.html)
:

Preston

I forgive you for not reading more diligently.:snapout: Maybe the picture of the Tandem it isn't obvious that the PS pump I intend to use is a pulley driven style so I can tailor the pump speed as needed.

The Waterman pump is rated to 17000 rpm so I don't need to worry about over revving it.

Also I have a new found appreciation for Rob.... as he likes to secretly work on Camaros.

You just can't trust a secret with anyone these days.:bang:

That's gonna make you at least 1.5 sec slower... whatever he's doing.

Thanks Dave:bitchslap: You better put additional security on that car while it is away from home. Otherwise you never know who may be wrenching on it.:whistling:

At least you got some good beer.

Rob, you shoulda just got one of these:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/null_zps1a2aff3d.jpg (http://s236.photobucket.com/user/flash68/media/null_zps1a2aff3d.jpg.html)

I'm liking the falcon. Brett only keeps cheap beer @ the house or he wisely hides the good stuff. Not sure which is true but after him rolling me under the bus with that picture I'm starting to lean one direction.;)
:cheers:

Matt@BOS

08-19-2013, 07:45 PM

FETorino

08-19-2013, 08:56 PM

Come on man, you need to to a better job of keeping up appearances around here. First all the Chevy love, and next I bet you'll be posting up pictures of wide tires on skinny wheels.

the correct response (from a Ford person, which you claim to be) to the picture of you working on the Camaro is that Ford gear heads have to work on Chevy's because they don't ever have anything to fix on their Fords.

Matt

Are you coming out of the closet and admitting you true Mustang love?

Here are a couple of pictures you should like.:D

:cheers:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/Putnamcirca71camaro_zps81e4b8b7.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/Putnamcirca71camaro_zps81e4b8b7.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/1971LRPcamaro_zps84a6082e.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/1971LRPcamaro_zps84a6082e.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/Donnybrooke72programcrashphoto_zps07801f2b.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/Donnybrooke72programcrashphoto_zps07801f2b.jpg.htm l)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/Donohue67Bryarcrash_zpsd352d8e1.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/Donohue67Bryarcrash_zpsd352d8e1.jpg.html)

Flash68

08-19-2013, 10:26 PM

Dude. The wrecked Camaro pics are below the belt. :twak:

Matt@BOS

08-19-2013, 10:44 PM

Matt

Are you coming out of the closet and admitting you true Mustang love?

That would be like you admitting you love Chevys. Think about it...

Ron Sutton

09-03-2013, 12:57 PM

Rob,

Did you get your pump back yet?

Flash68

09-05-2013, 10:22 AM

Knowing that Rob likes and owns Fords and Corvettes, I have found the perfect vehicle for him. I believe is in negotiations at this very moment to be the proud new owner of....

http://bringatrailer.com/2013/09/03/blue-collar-custom-1958-williams-forvette-special/

214Chevy

09-05-2013, 04:37 PM

Wow!! "Forvette...." I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it myself. Hahahahahaha!! Now that is just too dang on funny.....Forvette. That name......Forvette. Hahahahahaha!!

fleetus macmullitz

09-05-2013, 04:52 PM

Both Flash and Rob have excellent taste in cars.

:tiptoe:

Sieg

09-13-2013, 07:49 PM

:hello: Torino updates?

INTMD8

09-18-2013, 09:35 AM

:hello: Torino updates?

Should be done by now :stirthepot:

FETorino

09-18-2013, 09:14 PM

Should be done by now :stirthepot:

Not even close. :lol:

:hello: Torino updates?

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/badhubbad_zpsc17bb9a5.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/badhubbad_zpsc17bb9a5.jpg.html)

:cheers:

Flash68

09-23-2013, 12:07 PM

Quit holding out dude....

Sieg

09-23-2013, 01:59 PM

Quit holding out dude....
Yea, show us the new nuts.

FETorino

09-23-2013, 03:51 PM

Yea, show us the new nuts.

Deez Nuts:headscratch:

:cheers:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/rearwheel_zps5911f041.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/rearwheel_zps5911f041.jpg.html)

Ron Sutton

09-23-2013, 05:02 PM

Your nuts look yellow.

Should you see a doctor? :poke:

FETorino

09-23-2013, 05:06 PM

Your nuts look yellow.

Should you see a doctor? :poke:

As long as they aren't blue I am OK :mock:

:cheers:

Sieg

09-23-2013, 05:25 PM

Deez Nuts:headscratch:

:cheers:

Yes, doze nuts. Thankfully.

badmatt

09-23-2013, 06:43 PM

Doze nuts doe.

FETorino

09-23-2013, 10:06 PM

Yes, doze nuts. Thankfully.

Doze nuts doe.

More nuts to come:lmao:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/badlugs_zpsdde1706a.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/badlugs_zpsdde1706a.jpg.html)

:cheers:

Sieg

09-23-2013, 10:20 PM

Well they're a step up from these anyway.......

http://terminalscheap.com/images/WNY1812_YELLOW.jpg

GregWeld

09-24-2013, 05:33 AM

Those will look really sweet on your shop trailer.

Wissing72

09-24-2013, 08:13 AM

How 'bout dis Nuttz?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEAqgRlQFJ0

intocarss

09-24-2013, 12:31 PM

AT least this thread is about a car build... Looks great FT!!!

Flash68

09-30-2013, 08:55 PM

For some reason there are Torino pics in every thread EXCEPT this one today. :sieg:

So I just thought I'd say here that this Torino looks KILLER in person. The proportions are different and very cool from what we typically see around here and Rob worked hard (sometimes twice) to make those wheels and tires fit just right on there.

Did I just type all of that above? I am indeed a traitor.

:gitrdun:

Vegas69

09-30-2013, 09:00 PM

It's a combination of the bromance and rose colored glasses. Snap out of it.:buttkick:

It does look great Rob. :flag2: Nice to see it off the trailer. :D

Ron in SoCal

09-30-2013, 09:05 PM

FETorino

09-30-2013, 09:20 PM

That is a great looking car.

Wow!!!!Talk about Cool factor.This thing just pegged the cool meter. :thumbsup:

I said it yesterday---but the Torino's stance is flat wicked. Rob nailed it---and I still think he should keep it that color--or some slight variation thereof. That thing is awesome. Thanks for having us over to the shop B--was a great time.

D

The Torino's stance is exceptional! :thumbsup:

Nice motor hanger in the Camaro, are you going to chrome it or powder coat it?

For some reason there are Torino pics in every thread EXCEPT this one today. :sieg:

So I just thought I'd say here that this Torino looks KILLER in person. The proportions are different and very cool from what we typically see around here and Rob worked hard (sometimes twice) to make those wheels and tires fit just right on there.

Did I just type all of that above? I am indeed a traitor.

:gitrdun:

It's a combination of the bromance and rose colored glasses. Snap out of it.:buttkick:

It does look great Rob. :flag2: Nice to see it off the trailer. :D

This thread is lacking some Torino pictures isn't it.

:wow: DG be careful these guys will pull your Camaro card.:lmao: Thanks for the props. You too Todd.

I've been thinking about what this dam thing would look like on the ground for a couple years now. I have to thank Phil and Jeremy at RS for making the stance I had in my head come to life. For me it looks even better than I thought it would. Good enough for the hard core first gen guys to call a short truce and give it some love.

I'm glad I'm not billing myself for the hours of measuring, and remeasuring, and research, and changing my mind that I spent in picking the wheel and tire combo. :faint:

Now back to our regular Ford vs Chevy programming.

:cheers:

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k514/Fab50Three/Rob%20FE%2069%20Torino/IMG_6153_zps0bf30be4.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/Fab50Three/media/Rob%20FE%2069%20Torino/IMG_6153_zps0bf30be4.jpg.html)http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k514/Fab50Three/Rob%20FE%2069%20Torino/IMG_6154_zpsa4c66019.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/Fab50Three/media/Rob%20FE%2069%20Torino/IMG_6154_zpsa4c66019.jpg.html)http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k514/Fab50Three/Rob%20FE%2069%20Torino/IMG_6152_zps4ee27c8b.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/Fab50Three/media/Rob%20FE%2069%20Torino/IMG_6152_zps4ee27c8b.jpg.html)http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k514/Fab50Three/Rob%20FE%2069%20Torino/IMG_6151_zps82b75ce7.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/Fab50Three/media/Rob%20FE%2069%20Torino/IMG_6151_zps82b75ce7.jpg.html)

Sieg

09-30-2013, 09:22 PM

Moot point, but who'd you hire to photograph it?

fleetus macmullitz

09-30-2013, 09:28 PM

Looks great Rob. :thumbsup:

David Pearson and Benny Parsons would approve. :cool:

GregWeld

09-30-2013, 09:33 PM

Moot point, but who'd you hire to photograph it?

Oooohhhhh.......That's not gonna buff out.....

FETorino

09-30-2013, 09:44 PM

So a bit of detail on what I've been up to lately.

First Cheryl and I knock over a couple banks to fund the deal. DG I took inspiration from your mauve jacket for the disguise.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/joyfulIV_zpsa99c347c.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/joyfulIV_zpsa99c347c.jpg.html)

A while back I posted the pictures below but without explanation.

When I ordered my wheels Travis Johnson from F43 told me about MSI racing in NC. They make custom wheel studs and lug nuts for all forms of racing including NASCAR.

Their stuff is machined in house to order and then heat treated and teflon coated. I didn't want the 12mm front 1/2" rear stud combo that you are usually stuck with when using a C6 front hub and a Speedway floater. So I ordered a set of 1/2 20 front studs for my C6 hubs from Curtis. I also ordered a matching set of studs for the rear hubs.

Kenny at Speedway was kind enough to swap me my hubs with studs for a fresh set without studs. I have been waiting for the studs for about a month. (I got stuck behind an order for 800 sets of studs).

I finally got the front hubs with the studs already pressed in and took the new rear studs and my hubs over to Bretts to borrow his press.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/hub_zpsdd0b7c43.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/hub_zpsdd0b7c43.jpg.html)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/badlugs_zpsdde1706a.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/badlugs_zpsdde1706a.jpg.html)

Then I loaded up my RAD10 Formula43 wheels and Micheline Pilot tires and went to the tire shop.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/wheelmountingroadtrip_zpsdcce8e8f.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/wheelmountingroadtrip_zpsdcce8e8f.jpg.html)

All mounted up and ready to get the car on the ground. The end result you've seen above.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/wheelsday1_zpsd7c9a6fa.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/wheelsday1_zpsd7c9a6fa.jpg.html)