1969 Torino

[FETorino]

That sounds like quite a sharp tool of a friend.

He's a good dude just knows more about BBQ than beer or motors. At least he knows BBQ . :popcorn2:

[Flash68]

He's a good dude just knows more about BBQ than beer or motors. At least he knows BBQ . :popcorn2:

I didn't know Bryan bought a used junk motor... :peepwall:

[FETorino]

I didn't know Bryan bought a used junk motor... :peepwall:

I said he knew BBQ . Not that he claimed he knew BBQ.:hitaxeonthehead:

[Payton King]

getting one step closer. What are you running for a clutch?

[carbuff]

:underchair:

[FETorino]

getting one step closer. What are you running for a clutch?

Either a Findanzia 14lb or Ram 20lbs AL flywheel and a McLeod RST. I already have the clutch set up, one of each flywheel and a quicktime bell. I'm going to do some measuring to see what TO bearing would work.

[fleetus macmullitz]

These LS builds are never simple...

[Flash68]

:underchair:

:repost:

Either a Findanzia 14lb or Ram 20lbs AL flywheel and a McLeod RST. I already have the clutch set up, one of each flywheel and a quicktime bell. I'm going to do some measuring to see what TO bearing would work.

14 lb. Done.

[Ron in SoCal]

Either a Findanzia 14lb or Ram 20lbs AL flywheel and a McLeod RST. I already have the clutch set up, one of each flywheel and a quicktime bell. I'm going to do some measuring to see what TO bearing would work.



14 lb. Done.

14 huh? :stirthepot: :snapout:

http://www.google.com/search?q=fidanza+13lb+aluminum+flywheel&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=

[Rick D]

14 huh? :stirthepot: :snapout:

http://www.google.com/search?q=fidanza+13lb+aluminum+flywheel&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=

:lol: :lol:

iX3kxAA2L4Q

[Flash68]

^^ :headspin: :D

[FETorino]

:repost:



14 lb. Done.

14 huh? :stirthepot: :snapout:

http://www.google.com/search?q=fidanza+13lb+aluminum+flywheel&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=

Hmm

Maybe a quick check of their website?

http://www.fidanza.com/ItemDetails.aspx?fid=72&mid=148&mk=FORD&md=ALL&yn=58-70&eid=70&mkid=6

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/MiniFlywheel_zpsbb9d4d51.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/MiniFlywheel_zpsbb9d4d51.jpg.html)

PRODUCT INFORMATION FOR YOUR 58-70 FORD ALL


ALUMINUM #: 186541
WEIGHT: 14lbs
STEEL #:
PLATE #: 221171
NOTE: external balance weights are included in the hardware kit supplied with the flywheel, includes 11" & 11.5" 3 finger and 11" diaphragm clutch patterns
DESCRIPTION: A Fidanza flywheel can mate with any type of clutch material, including organic, kevlar, ceramic, metallic and sintered iron. We attach the friction surface with military grade aerospace fasteners. The ring gears are made from 1050 steel and are heat treated for durability. The gears are heated then pressed on and secured with grade 8 button screws. We were the first to use a stepped dowel system in most of our flywheel applications. This doweling method ensures that once the pressure plate is installed the dowels cannot be removed because they become locked into place. No chromemoly can compete with the awesome serviceability, strength and superior design of Fidanza's aluminum flywheels. If there was a better material out there, we would be using it.
Image may not be o

[Ron in SoCal]

:topic: :innocent: :thankyou:

[EvoIX]

:topic: :innocent: :thankyou:

You do realize which thread you are in?

[Rick D]

:topic: :innocent: :thankyou:

Opps guess your google search skills need some refining, like picking you hockey team!! :stirthepot: :welcome3: :peepwall:

Rob nice trans by the way! So have you ordered wheels yet??

[Ron in SoCal]

You do realize which thread you are in?

Course I do Jr. That's why I posted those funny little icons. We're all (those that posted) old friends here. With this crew you gotts be able to dish it out as well as take it. That's part of the fun! :thumbsup:

I've actually owend a 13lb Fidanza. Never knew they made a 14, but you learn something every day.

[FETorino]

Course I do Jr. That's why I posted those funny little icons. We're all (those that posted) old friends here. With this crew you gotts be able to dish it out as well as take it. That's part of the fun! :thumbsup:

I've actually owend a 13lb Fidanza. Never knew they made a 14, but you learn something every day.

It's ok I spelled Fidanza incorrectly :underchair:

Opps guess your google search skills need some refining, like picking you hockey team!! :stirthepot: :welcome3: :peepwall:

Rob nice trans by the way! So have you ordered wheels yet??

:secret: :_paranoid :secret: Rick did you make that trip to MI yet?

[Rick D]

It's ok I spelled Fidanza incorrectly :underchair:



:secret: :_paranoid :secret: Rick did you make that trip to MI yet?

Next Saturday!!! :excited: :hapdance: :excited: :hapdance: :excited: :hapdance:

[Sieg]

Next Saturday!!! :excited: :hapdance: :excited: :hapdance: :excited: :hapdance:
Build thread starts when the trailer is hooked up!? :D

[FETorino]

Woodward make some really nice steering joints. Luckily I know somebody with welding talent to weld the ends in the CroMol shaft so I can wheel it with confidence. :D

Notice how sleek the Woodward shafts are compared to the typical Borgenson stuff. A small thing but they are not only functional but Elegant in their design.


http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/3c5bdc47-dde1-4e92-8ec4-cfdaff65f509_zps6233f751.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/3c5bdc47-dde1-4e92-8ec4-cfdaff65f509_zps6233f751.jpg.html)

[Flash68]

Notice how sleek the Woodward shafts are compared to the typical Borgenson stuff.

Well ain't you fancy.

[FETorino]

Well ain't you fancy.

I know you're already shopping for them....:mock:

[GregWeld]

Never weld a steering shaft....


I think I read why somewhere but damned if I can remember.


Please do some research before doing that.

[GregWeld]

Read page #8 of the Woodward catalog.....

[FETorino]

Read page #8 of the Woodward catalog.....

I have

So how then does one install the splined plug ends into a steering shaft? One of us is reading something different. :headscratch: I think it is you. :action-smiley-027: Of course I always think I'm right until somebody slaps some sense into me. :bitchslap: :bitchslap: It is a good topic for discussion.:cheers:

http://woodwardsteering.com/images/steering%20universal%20joints.pdf

Double-splined U-joints:
In all but entry-level classes, the time-honored practice of welding
universal joints directly to the steering tubing is gradually being
phased out. ST201 weld-in splined stubs allow the use of double-splined,
completely removable u-joints. The stubs are solid, and unlike a splined
piece of tubing they cannot be crushed by the set screws. The slight extra
cost of stubs and double-splined joints is almost insignificant compared
with the time and effort which must otherwise be invested in welding
u-joints, removing welded u-joints with a torch or hand grinder, or trying
to modify a steering shaft whose joints have been welded.
U-joints can undergo distortion if they are heat-soaked during a
time-consuming welding process, and excessive heat will draw the temper
of the needle bearings. Weld-in stubs contain no moving parts and
are virtually immune to damage other than spatter. A guide to welding
these parts appears on page 8.

Welding U-joints and Stubs to Steering Shafts
While it has become obvious over many years that universal joints can be welded to shafts with a high degree of reliability, some procedures
are detrimental to the u-joint and must be avoided. Plug or rosette welds on universal joints are virtually guaranteed to shorten the life of the bearings
from both direct heat and the distortion resulting from weld contraction in proximity to the bearing bores. Even if the bearings are removed first,
this distortion will cause enough ovality and misalignment to damage both the bearings and the trunnion journals when reinstalling. In any case,
the cross section of a circumferential weld joint is comfortably larger than that of a tubular steering shaft, and any additional welding in the form of
plugs or rosettes would be entirely superfluous.
In general, any welding procedure which consumes enough time to discolor the ears of the u-joint should be assumed to have drawn the temper
of the bearings. This does not necessarily disqualify the TIG process, but TIG does tend to be fairly slow. To avoid heat-soaking the joint when
TIG welding, use a high-strength, non-cracking filler rod such as 309 stainless and keep the cross-section small. The most practical method is MIG,
as a comfortably large weld can be made in a few seconds. ER80S-D2 wire using C-25 shielding gas will give excellent results for both strength and
appearance.
The obvious disadvantage of any welding is, of course, that once you’ve welded the u-joints they cannot be removed without resorting to a
torch, saw, or angle grinder. A mechanical connection, on the other hand, carries the great convenience of being removable for inspection or replacement.
Welding splined stubs into the steering tube is no more work than welding u-joints directly to it. However, by confining the welding to the
tube, potential heat damage to the u-joint bearings is eliminated. A full-penetration circumferential weld of the stub to the tube will transmit steering
torque as effectively as the tube itself, and is not difficult.
With a weld-in stub, plug or rosette welds can be added if desired. If so,
use two; these should be as directly opposite each other as possible to equalize
the inevitable distortion. The pilot of the splined stub is made a few thousandths
oversize to ensure a tight fit in the expected ID of a .120 wall tube. File the pilot
if necessary until it fits the tube snugly. A heavy driven fit is unnecessary and
will restrain the weld joint. Leave a 1/8” gap at the root of the weld to ensure
penetration. For the circumferential weld, a couple of hot MIG passes (use a rolling
fixture if you can) will get the job done before any significant distortion can set in.
Although a steering shaft is not a high-speed rotating assembly, straightness
is still a practical goal. If you prefer TIG welding, excellent results will be
obtained using 309 stainless steel filler rod as above. However, keep in mind that
TIG is relatively slow; the slower the welding process, the more your finished
job is likely to deviate from straight. Postheat to a faint red and let cool in air
(Note: don’t postheat a universal joint).

[GregWeld]

The plug ends are okay to weld --- it's the knuckles that you don't weld...
and that's what the picture you posted was of. So thought you wanted to weld them to your steering shaft.

[Ron in SoCal]

Well ain't you fancy.

I know you're already shopping for them....:mock:

That rug would make a lovely addition in DG's family room too :idea:

[fleetus macmullitz]

That rug would make a lovely addition in DG's family room too :idea:


Or for your 'wheel room'?


http://www.domrep.ch/images/smilies/done.gif

[GregWeld]

Never weld a steering shaft....


I think I read why somewhere but damned if I can remember.


Please do some research before doing that.



I should have said a STEERING KNUCKLE not shaft --- I was thinking you wanted to weld the knuckle TO the shaft....

[FETorino]

I should have said a STEERING KNUCKLE not shaft --- I was thinking you wanted to weld the knuckle TO the shaft....

Aren't we glad we all agree:grouphug:

I agree that although Woodward sell a weld on U joint using one isn't the best idea. That is why after researching it I bought the weld in splined ends from Woodward.

The completed splined end shaft on mine is light and strong and makes for easy servicing of the U joints in the future....

and of course controversy and a little drama which is what my thread is usually about.:lmao:

The good thing about this forum and anybody's build thread is the chance to exchange ideas, learn from each other and point people to specialists like Woodward.

In this particular case "Knuckles" has added a new element I can use in his build threads replacing Intros which has run it's course. :headspin:

Don't feel bad GW. When I bought my ATL fuel cell I was convinced I could run a Y fitting from both duck foot pickups to my main 10an line to my pump. Of all people, DG found out that was a bad idea and sent me of to ask ATL directly. I guess he knows more about fuel delivery than motor choice.:lmao:

Now DG is free to shop for some race car u joints.

:cheers:

[Ripped]

It will be interesting to see how your steering system all works out.

Did you get the Auzzie steering box? It's a faster ratio, but I hear it turns the opposite way around ;)

[FETorino]

It will be interesting to see how your steering system all works out.

Did you get the Auzzie steering box? It's a faster ratio, but I hear it turns the opposite way around ;)

You just concentrate on trying to get that motor of yours on the dyno and get some practice laps on your home track. :warning:

I hear you have a showdown in your future. :guns:

:cheers:


That rug would make a lovely addition in DG's family room too :idea:


Well I better take it off the back porch and hide it in the barn before he stops by and trys to nab it.

[Flash68]

Rob, you're welcome on the fuel cell help. Would hate to have you be able to use a faulty fuel cell configuration as the reason for being a lap down.

That rug would make a lovely addition in DG's family room too :idea:

There's only one place that thing belongs... it's called the trash bin. :bitchslap:

Or for your 'wheel room'?




Zinger much? :D

[FETorino]

Well maybe I'll start with a more detailed picture of my steering shaft.

You can see in the picture the shaft is .750" .120 wall CroMo and the ends are the Woodward 20 spline style. This style is pretty cool with a square edge on the top of each spline. This prevents the spines from splaying wach other apart. You can see in the photo below the difference between the Woodward spline and the std automotive 36 spline that is found on my rack and that I ordered for the end of my Flaming River colomn.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1891_zpsa6642d18.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1891_zpsa6642d18.jpg.html)

The other day I assembled my rotors. I still have to safety wire them but that is another post. Here is a picture of one of the rears. The hat is cast and acts as a brake drum for the parking brake. Yes full race junkys I plan on running a parking brake. The rotors are 14x1.10" e-coated and slotted but not drilled.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1890_zpsef49e4af.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1890_zpsef49e4af.jpg.html)

Today I removed the hubs from my Speedway floater and stared installing the brakes. This is just a test fit install.

The powdercoaters coated the flanges for the brake backing plates. I started by chasing the threads with a 3/8 24 tap to remove the PC
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1898_zps374cc7c2.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1898_zps374cc7c2.jpg.html)

Next I took a flat file to the mounting face. I would prefer this to have no coating so the backing plate would mate to a machined metal surface. For not I just spot faced it to ensure it was flat. I may strip it entirely. More on that later.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1900_zpsa80db8bd.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1900_zpsa80db8bd.jpg.html)

On with the backing plate and parking brake assembly.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1902_zps363cb610.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1902_zps363cb610.jpg.html)

Now here is what I'm talking about with the powdercoat. The Wilwood caliper bracket mounts to the back of the backing plate. When you assemble it you use shims to center it on the caliper. They say to start with two .11 shims. You can see them in the picture.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1908_zps7f9262c3.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1908_zps7f9262c3.jpg.html)

Then there is another spacer between the bracket and backing plate.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1909_zps00b2e47c.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1909_zps00b2e47c.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1912_zps9e30ea54.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1912_zps9e30ea54.jpg.html)

The radial mounted caliper bolts onto the bracket. You adjust the centering of the caliper with the shims. I would guess the powdercoat is already spacing the caliper .11" or more outboard so although I stared with 2 shims as Wilwood recommends I really only have 1 shim of spacing. If I need to move the caliper inboard more I'd need more shims than normal. If I need more than three I'm going to clean off the mounting face. The Powdercoat is like a hard gasket of sorts and the force on the bracket isn't going to work on the "gasket" so I'm not overly concerned about it but I may be cleaning it all off the mounting face.

[badmatt]

Neat.

[Flash68]

Neat.

Rob puts in all that time and that's all you got? :disgusted:

[TAC]

Good to see your getting some work done on your car Rob. Chassis looks good.
I haven't been on here much lately with my project, Torino 10, since I have been out of work since December. Been keeping busy doing projects for others so there is no time for my stuff.

[badmatt]

Rob puts in all that time and that's you got? :disgusted:

LOL the car looks great, Have always said that.

Look great Rob. what Wilwood kit did you end up going with?

[FETorino]

Neat.

LOL the car looks great, Have always said that.

Look great Rob. what Wilwood kit did you end up going with?

BadMatt you are a Torino contributor and parts supplier. I'll take "neat" works for me. :D

I was luck enough to have Mike H and Tarrant from Wilwood work with me on putting together a kit. Up front are W6A 6 piston calipers with the dynamic floating style rotors and out back is a kit they sell for the Speedway floater rear end 4 piston Billet Narrow superlite calipers with the integrated crossover. Rotors front and rear are 14" the fronts are 1.25" rear 1.1". On Mikes advice since I plan on flogging it hard the rotors are slotted but not drilled.

I'm going to post some more details on building the rotors and the brakes overall when the wheels arrive.:ups:

Good to see your getting some work done on your car Rob. Chassis looks good.
I haven't been on here much lately with my project, Torino 10, since I have been out of work since December. Been keeping busy doing projects for others so there is no time for my stuff.

Yea I saw your post on the fathers day gift. I hope you get things squared away soon and can get back to work on your project. The world needs a V10 Torino. :thumbsup:

I sat and did nothing on mine from 09 until last year because I was feeling a little wonky about the future.

[Flash68]

LOL the car looks great, Have always said that.



We know you are part of the "army" on here. :bigun2:

[badmatt]

The jackstand army.... :(

[Rick D]

Nice write up there Rob, with Bret not posting as much we need some more detailed post like yours! Oh I don't remember you posting about all this powder coating.

[FETorino]

The jackstand army.... :(

I'm with you on that brother.:lol:

Nice write up there Rob, with Bret not posting as much we need some more detailed post like yours! Oh I don't remember you posting about all this powder coating.

I appreciate the compliment but although I am taller, more charming and better looking than Brett he is far more talented in the build thread department.:)

How about a post on getting to this point and what a floater really is.

Just remember with a Floater like my Speedway or a Howe you need to make sure your wheel centers are bored enough to clear the large hub. I've heard of people having issues with wheel builders over this. Not in my case my wheels are coming from one of the best in the race wheel bussiness :unibrow: but I have heard about it happening to others.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/871b3ee9-8682-4d83-a22f-49182ec8bd51_zpse80c8b78.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/871b3ee9-8682-4d83-a22f-49182ec8bd51_zpse80c8b78.jpg.html)

First. a lot of people talk about floaters and why one floater is better than another but you never really see a good technical write up. No chance of that happening from me either but I will give a little info on the Speedway Mod Lite floater I have and what I think something like a GMR is.:underchair:

A floater has a dedicated hub outboard supported by bearings on the housing that is independent of the axle itself. The advantage to this is you can easily service the bearings and add some tension to them as they break in. If you have ever worked on the front of a solid axle 4x4 you have messed with something similar.

The housing end doesn't have a flanged bearing end like a normal rear housing. Instead of the smaller taper bearing inside the housing end the Floater has a smooth bearing surface and a threaded end. You can see in this picture the end and the inner TImken roller bearing. If I was final assembling this I would have some good quality grease on this bearing. For now I am just dry fitting everything to check my caliper to rotor clearances and shimming.

Yes you with a sharp eye will notice 3 allen headed cap screws and one grade 8 bolt holding the backing plate on. Remember this is test fit run.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1918_zps464ad084.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1918_zps464ad084.jpg.html)

Instead of the one small bearing there is a larger inner and outer bearing that sit in the opposing tapers of the hub and a large nut preloads the bearings.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1917_zps946f5ae2.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1917_zps946f5ae2.jpg.html)

Here you can see the hub. You see the tapered races on the inside of the hub.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1914_zps6cc1a08e.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1914_zps6cc1a08e.jpg.html)

With the inner bearing on you will seat the hub over the inner and then comes the outer bearing. again if I were actually building this there would be grease everywhere. The big difference (as far as I know because I don't have one) :headscratch: with a GMR or other floater is they use a Corvette hub that has a sealed bearing similar to the one on the front (or at least that is what I believe). Somebody who has one of those floaters jump in and tell their story.:welcome3:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1920_zpsef7f81b2.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1920_zpsef7f81b2.jpg.html)

With the outer bearing in (with grease) then comes a small thrust plate the nut and then a neat little locking device that keeps the nut from backing off. The retaining plate has a tab that fits in the keyway slot in the end of the housing and two small allen bolts are screwed into the nut positively retaining it.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1921_zps743bfe91.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1921_zps743bfe91.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1922_zps68cb0ebf.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1922_zps68cb0ebf.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1924_zpscfccde1f.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1924_zpscfccde1f.jpg.html)

[Matt@BOS]

How about a post on getting to this point and what a floater really is.



How about some decent quality pictures. :lol:

[Ron in SoCal]

How about some decent quality pictures. :lol:

Yeah! And some safety wire on those rotors...:hello:

[67zo6Camaro]

I appreciate the compliment but although I am taller, more charming and better looking than Brett he is far more talented in the build thread department.



I appreciate that Rob and Rick. And you are correct Charming beats out talent, but you are doing a pretty good job here and I would also like to see more (maybe with a little clearer pictures). You know Iam a big fan of this build and one of your silent cheer leaders. Lol

[FETorino]

How about some decent quality pictures. :lol:

You of all people:warning:


Yeah! And some safety wire on those rotors...:hello:

:RunninDog:

Slow down there tiger. You know full well I'm not done with my rotors yet. Rotor assembly and Safety wire will be the next episode.

:cheers:


I appreciate that Rob and Rick. And you are correct Charming beats out talent, but you are doing a pretty good job here and I would also like to see more (maybe with a little clearer pictures). You know Iam a big fan of this build and one of your silent cheer leaders. Lol

The nice thing is I can always stop by on the way home from the office and get some build advice from the talented guy. Thanks BC. :thumbsup: Now get back to the Skunkworks project. :popcorn2:

[67zo6Camaro]

I'm with you on that brother.:lol:



I appreciate the compliment but although I am taller, more charming and better looking than Brett he is far more talented in the build thread department.:)

How about a post on getting to this point and what a floater really is.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/871b3ee9-8682-4d83-a22f-49182ec8bd51_zpse80c8b78.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/871b3ee9-8682-4d83-a22f-49182ec8bd51_zpse80c8b78.jpg.html)

First. a lot of people talk about floaters and why one floater is better than another but you never really see a good technical write up. No chance of that happening from me either but I will give a little info on the Speedway Mod Lite floater I have and what I think something like a GMR is.:underchair:

A floater has a dedicated hub outboard supported by bearings on the housing that is independent of the axle itself. The advantage to this is you can easily service the bearings and add some tension to them as they break in. If you have ever worked on the front of a solid axle 4x4 you have messed with something similar.

The housing end doesn't have a flanged bearing end like a normal rear housing. Instead of the smaller taper bearing inside the housing end the Floater has a smooth bearing surface and a threaded end. You can see in this picture the end and the inner TImken roller bearing. If I was final assembling this I would have some good quality grease on this bearing. For now I am just dry fitting everything to check my caliper to rotor clearances and shimming.

Yes you with a sharp eye will notice 3 allen headed cap screws and one grade 8 bolt holding the backing plate on. Remember this is test fit run.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1918_zps464ad084.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1918_zps464ad084.jpg.html)

Instead of the one small bearing there is a larger inner and outer bearing that sit in the opposing tapers of the hub and a large nut preloads the bearings.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1917_zps946f5ae2.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1917_zps946f5ae2.jpg.html)

Here you can see the hub. You see the tapered races on the inside of the hub.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1914_zps6cc1a08e.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1914_zps6cc1a08e.jpg.html)

With the inner bearing on you will seat the hub over the inner and then comes the outer bearing. again if I were actually building this there would be grease everywhere. The big difference (as far as I know because I don't have one) :headscratch: with a GMR or other floater is they use a Corvette hub that has a sealed bearing similar to the one on the front (or at least that is what I believe). Somebody who has one of those floaters jump in and tell their story.:welcome3:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1920_zpsef7f81b2.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1920_zpsef7f81b2.jpg.html)

With the outer bearing in (with grease) then comes a small thrust plate the nut and then a neat little locking device that keeps the nut from backing off. The retaining plate has a tab that fits in the keyway slot in the end of the housing and two small allen bolts are screwed into the nut positively retaining it.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1921_zps743bfe91.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1921_zps743bfe91.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1922_zps68cb0ebf.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1922_zps68cb0ebf.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1924_zpscfccde1f.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1924_zpscfccde1f.jpg.html)

holly cow. were did all these extra pictures come from. I take back my prior comment. Nice. Keep going.

[Sieg]

holly cow. were did all these extra pictures come from. I take back my prior comment. Nice. Keep going.

No need to take them back, we have photographic evidence to support them. :D

Looking real good Rob!

[FETorino]

holly cow. were did all these extra pictures come from. I take back my prior comment. Nice. Keep going.

That's all for now. :unibrow:

I accomplished what I needed to do tonight and checked my caliper alignment. All the parts are back in the box and I'm the NET. I have 4 rotors to safety wire this week after work.

As a note on the caliper alignment. Wilwood has a good PDF set of instructions but I have heard of two instances where the stud in the radial bracket loosened up during use. I'm pretty sure I know why this would happen.:headscratch:

The Radial bracket is AL and the studs are threaded into it probably with locktite. Per the instructions Wilwood has you bolt the calipers on to check the pad depth measurement. The only nuts they give you are the self locking pinch style 12pts. Once you use these to torque down the caliper and then remove them to add or subtract shims the nut is working against the locktite on the stud.

How many times have you used a jamnut to remove a stud. Think about it it is the same thing just not as obvious. The pinch nut may not have enough grip to remove the stud like a jamnut but it is trying and in some cases probably loosens the locktites grip on the stud enough to start the probalem.

JMHO

:cheers:

[intocarss]

Oh Yeah

[fleetus macmullitz]

Oh Yeah

She's a cow...



:hello:

[Rick D]

She's a cow...


Wow i would like to see your reaction when you see her come up your driveway with parts? :poke: I know I would be ordering parts everyday :ups: :ups: :ups:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Wow i would like to see your reaction when you see her come up your driveway with parts? :poke: I know I would be ordering parts everyday :ups: :ups: :ups:

:D

Rick,

You stepped into the middle of a contest. Most of my posts directed at Dr. Jer E. Dawhg are designed to continue to 'take out' his screen(s). A keyboard would be a bonus. I'm sure the young lady in the picture has a very nice personality.

Actually, I'm not sure of that. :lol:

[Sieg]

She's a cow...

:hello:

.....A dairy cow. They bring the goods every day Skipper. :hello:

[fleetus macmullitz]

.....A dairy cow. They bring the goods every day Skipper. :hello:

:D


I'd like this one to pull up in front of our place...no matter who was drivin it.

BTW-Enjoying your updates Rob. :thumbsup:


http://image.trucktrend.com/f/34892153/2011-SEMA-top-25-UPS-1953-Ford-F-100-Panel-Wagon-Hot-Rod.jpg

http://stwot.motortrend.com/files/2011/11/UPS-1953-Ford-F-100-side-view.jpg

http://stwot.motortrend.com/files/2011/11/UPS-1953-Ford-F-100-rear-interior-1024x640.jpg

[intocarss]

She's a cow...



:hello: And I like utters

Wow i would like to see your reaction when you see her come up your driveway with parts? :poke: I know I would be ordering parts everyday :ups: :ups: :ups: Just the thought of her handling my package all day

[INTMD8]

Nice pics!

GMR floater is of similar construction except it has a sleeve that goes between the inner bearing races that limits preload so you just torque the outer nut.

They also have a C6 hub version as you mentioned.

[FETorino]

So last weekend I needed to remove my front hubs from the C6 spindles on the front of my chassis. I'm doing some upgrades:secret: basically new :censored:s before I finish mounting the brakes and the wheels arrive. Once I'm done I'll post some details since nobody wants text without photos.

When I went to remove the three allen head capscrews that secure the hub it was obvious I needed to unseat the balljoint. You can see in this after removal photo that the capscrew sits behind the balljoint stud and castle nut.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1942_zpsfc9be4ff.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1942_zpsfc9be4ff.jpg.html)

My first thought is I have a pitman arm puller in the toolbox I have used before to remove tierods and pitman arms and drag links and other parts with a taper seat without damage.

None of these those are some other pullers for pulleys and such. :twak:


http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1941_zps025faaf9.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1941_zps025faaf9.jpg.html)

Here is the little guy I first thought of.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1940_zps63586787.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1940_zps63586787.jpg.html)

Unfortunately although the throat in this guy is big enough to fit over the bottom of the spindle the sweet looking billet AL steering arm in teh previous picture is in the way.:bur2: :headscratch:

Hm my little FOrd (you guys keep adding a J to Ford so the O is an emphasis reminder for spelling) pitman arm puller is doing me no good on this Bowtie balljoint excursion.

I also have a spreader style which is basically like a turnbuckle that causes the two ends to expand. I forgot to snap a picture and am too lazy to go back out to the garage. Anyway that same billet steering arm is in the way (no straight line between upper and lower balljoint.

I do a google search for C6 balljoint. ALL the Corvette forum guys use pickleforks :omg: :wow: No F:censored:g way I'm going medieval on this stuff :badidea: What a bunch of hacks.

So I shoot an e-mail to someone who works on this stuff all the time to ask what the preferred tool is. There is surely a special Bowtie toll part # for this application. I am rewarded with the correct Chevy part # and rush down to get one. It worked like a charm and unseated the balljint in about 30 seconds.

Just for everyone's future reference here is the Chevy specific tool.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1939_zps8093ed09.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1939_zps8093ed09.jpg.html)

Job done, Hubs shipped, on to the next project.:relax: :popcorn2:

[Ripped]

Looks like you are making good progress, along with your skills ;)

[carbuff]

Hm my little FOrd (you guys keep adding a J to Ford so the O is an emphasis reminder for spelling) pitman arm puller is doing me no good on this Bowtie balljoint excursion.

I personally prefer FErd, and actually not in an offensive way. :)

Glad to see ONE of you Cali guys making some progress these days...

[FETorino]

I personally prefer FErd, and actually not in an offensive way. :)

Glad to see ONE of you Cali guys making some progress these days...

Brian I approve this message....:thumbsup:

Now I may even have to forgive you for the Salt Lick:D

:cheers:

[Sieg]

Just for everyone's future reference here is the Chevy specific tool.

C_Kh7nLplWo

[GregWeld]

I was looking thru my Salt Lick BBQ book today.... Great recipe for BBQ chicken.


BTW -- Chevy guys have many specialized tools similar to the one you used. They come in different sizes and are very effective to find the most expensive part nearest the one you meant to hit.

[Vegas69]

Good to see you working on the car. Hopefully the commotion scared the resident raccoon out of his home. :lol:

[FETorino]

Good to see you working on the car. Hopefully the commotion scared the resident raccoon out of his home. :lol:

He's been tagged and relocated to BMF v2.2 :thumbsup:

[Flash68]

Glad to see ONE of you Cali guys making some progress these days...

Yean Ron has been kicking ass lately hasn't he.



Now I may even have to forgive you for the Salt Lick:D

:cheers:

Never forget. Never forgive. :disgusted:

Good to see you working on the car. Hopefully the commotion scared the resident raccoon out of his home. :lol:

:thumbsup:

He's been tagged and relocated to BMF v2.2 :thumbsup:

He better watch out for the Mossberg 500 I am taking delivery of tomorrow.... :guns:

[Rick D]

Soooooo is it done yet??? :poke: :poke: :smiley_smack: :smiley_smack:

So I get it now, if you start posting all this technical stuff in your thread we not notice that there still isn't any real progress done :peepwall: :mock: :stirthepot: :thumbsup:

[FETorino]

C_Kh7nLplWo

Sieg I'm sorry if I mislabeled your favorite carb tuning tool.

I was looking thru my Salt Lick BBQ book today.... Great recipe for BBQ chicken.


Never forget. Never forgive. :disgusted:



Yea thanks for pulling me aside. Those were dark days in Austin. Where is that Brian guy ... :guns:

Soooooo is it done yet??? :poke:

So I get it now, if you start posting all this technical stuff in your thread we not notice that there still isn't any real progress done:thumbsup:

Ha sometimes a bit of reality needs to set into these build threads. :snapout: Seeing huge amounts of work magically appear really gives the wrong impression.

:twak: I know, you know better Rick and you're just busting my chops.:D Remember that 69?

For anyone building a car yourself you fast begin to realize how much time things can take.

I spent a couple hours the other day accomplishing nothing with my hubs. Then I spent a couple hours building all my rotors. Then a couple more taking the hubs off the floater and test fitting the brakes. So I have a days work into it and not much to show in pictures but I have made a bunch of progress and when it comes time for finally assembly of my brakes it should go pretty smooth.

People lose sight of this when they drop a car off to be built. Just the grunt assembly work takes a considerable amount of time. Then the planning :headscratch:

We aren't building kit cars with instruction sheets or manuals (well there are those first gen LS Camaro builds :stirthepot: ) things need to be thought out.

Just staring at the frame rails and envisioning how to route your lines is working on your car. It is something, one of many mundane things, you have to do but nobody wants to hear about it.

When somebody looks at a shop bill and goes WTF that means they probably never went through doing any of this stuff themselves. If somebody is going to do something right you are going to pay. If you do it yourself be patient because it is going to take you time.

So I made progress today. I spent 20 min following up with a source for stainless tubing in straight sticks so I don't have to try (unsuccessfully what a F:censored: bi:censored: if you don't have some fancy roller tool) to uncoil the long sections running down my frame rails. Nothing to show, but progress none the less.:D

Don't worry though I have some eye candy progress that I'll be posting coming around the corner. I just have to get some more of the boring stuff done so the car can actually run one day. :thumbsup:

Moral of all this babble. Take a breath and get somethign done even if you can't post it.:lol: One day you (I) will walk outside and have a car.

For now I'm still just an enlisted man in the Jackstand army.

:cheers:

[Rick D]

Sieg I'm sorry if I mislabeled your favorite carb tuning tool.



Yea thanks for pulling me aside. Those were dark days in Austin. Where is that Brian guy ... :guns:



Ha sometimes a bit of reality needs to set into these build threads. :snapout: Seeing huge amounts of work magically appear really gives the wrong impression.

:twak: I know, you know better Rick and you're just busting my chops.:D Remember that 69?

For anyone building a car yourself you fast begin to realize how much time things can take.

I spent a couple hours the other day accomplishing nothing with my hubs. Then I spent a couple hours building all my rotors. Then a couple more taking the hubs off the floater and test fitting the brakes. So I have a days work into it and not much to show in pictures but I have made a bunch of progress and when it comes time for finally assembly of my brakes it should go pretty smooth.

People lose sight of this when they drop a car off to be built. Just the grunt assembly work takes a considerable amount of time. Then the planning :headscratch:

We aren't building kit cars with instruction sheets or manuals (well there are those first gen LS Camaro builds :stirthepot: ) things need to be thought out.

Just staring at the frame rails and envisioning how to route your lines is working on your car. It is something, one of many mundane things, you have to do but nobody wants to hear about it.

When somebody looks at a shop bill and goes WTF that means they probably never went through doing any of this stuff themselves. If somebody is going to do something right you are going to pay. If you do it yourself be patient because it is going to take you time.

So I made progress today. I spent 20 min following up with a source for stainless tubing in straight sticks so I don't have to try (unsuccessfully what a F:censored: bi:censored: if you don't have some fancy roller tool) to uncoil the long sections running down my frame rails. Nothing to show, but progress none the less.:D

Don't worry though I have some eye candy progress that I'll be posting coming around the corner. I just have to get some more of the boring stuff done so the car can actually run one day. :thumbsup:

Moral of all this babble. Take a breath and get somethign done even if you can't post it.:lol: One day you (I) will walk outside and have a car.

For now I'm still just an enlisted man in the Jackstand army.

:cheers:

Very well said brother!!!! Nothin but love!!! :hello:

Oh and yes I remember the 69 every day I walk out and see the 73 :bang: :lol:

[carbuff]

Yea thanks for pulling me aside. Those were dark days in Austin. Where is that Brian guy ... :guns:

:underchair:

Ha sometimes a bit of reality needs to set into these build threads. :snapout: Seeing huge amounts of work magically appear really gives the wrong impression.

For anyone building a car yourself you fast begin to realize how much time things can take.

People lose sight of this when they drop a car off to be built. Just the grunt assembly work takes a considerable amount of time. Then the planning :headscratch:

You got all of that right for sure! I've spent numerous days at the shop trying to just figure out how I want to do something, much less the actual 'doing' part.

Very well said...

[Vegas69]

He's been tagged and relocated to BMF v2.2 :thumbsup:

You got that right....:relax:

These cars are a hell of a lot of work to put together. Then a hell of a lot of work to dial in. Then a hell of a lot of work to maintain. Enjoy the ride......

[Ron in SoCal]

For anyone building a car yourself you fast begin to realize how much time things can take.

I spent a couple hours the other day accomplishing nothing with my hubs. Then I spent a couple hours building all my rotors. Then a couple more taking the hubs off the floater and test fitting the brakes. So I have a days work into it and not much to show in pictures but I have made a bunch of progress and when it comes time for finally assembly of my brakes it should go pretty smooth.

People lose sight of this when they drop a car off to be built. Just the grunt assembly work takes a considerable amount of time. Then the planning :headscratch:

We aren't building kit cars with instruction sheets or manuals (well there are those first gen LS Camaro builds :stirthepot: ) things need to be thought out.

Just staring at the frame rails and envisioning how to route your lines is working on your car. It is something, one of many mundane things, you have to do but nobody wants to hear about it.

When somebody looks at a shop bill and goes WTF that means they probably never went through doing any of this stuff themselves. If somebody is going to do something right you are going to pay. If you do it yourself be patient because it is going to take you time.

So I made progress today. I spent 20 min following up with a source for stainless tubing in straight sticks so I don't have to try (unsuccessfully what a F:censored: bi:censored: if you don't have some fancy roller tool) to uncoil the long sections running down my frame rails. Nothing to show, but progress none the less.:D

Don't worry though I have some eye candy progress that I'll be posting coming around the corner. I just have to get some more of the boring stuff done so the car can actually run one day. :thumbsup:

Moral of all this babble. Take a breath and get somethign done even if you can't post it.:lol: One day you (I) will walk outside and have a car.

For now I'm still just an enlisted man in the Jackstand army.

:cheers:

First of all...go get a tissue and wipe your tears away. :ohsnap:

Like Weld says, these car's don't build themselves. So true. Every little bit, every part requires thinking it through.

I remember building my first Harley. When I went to the shop and drooled at some of their completed bikes, they said, "yeah, someone put a lot of thought into it." Little did I know many builds later what that meant; I'd stare at my bike on the lift in my garage every night trying to figure out how to make it my work of art (and to me they are rolliing art).

Easy for the Pros to do. They have vendor relationships and a number of builds under their belt that defines their 'style.'

Us newbs...we just have to think it through as we go. And the next one is an evololution of that thought process.

Keep going Bro. That's how it's done :cheers:

(Edit: now where'd I put my LS Camaro build manual? :lol:)

[Sieg]

Well said Rob :thumbsup:

[badmatt]

The destination is only a small part of the journey.

[intocarss]

For anyone building a car yourself you fast begin to realize how much time things can take.

I spent a couple hours the other day accomplishing nothing with my hubs. Then I spent a couple hours building all my rotors. Then a couple more taking the hubs off the floater and test fitting the brakes. So I have a days work into it and not much to show in pictures but I have made a bunch of progress and when it comes time for finally assembly of my brakes it should go pretty smooth.

People lose sight of this when they drop a car off to be built. Just the grunt assembly work takes a considerable amount of time. Then the planning :headscratch:

We aren't building kit cars with instruction sheets or manuals (well there are those first gen LS Camaro builds :stirthepot: ) things need to be thought out.

Just staring at the frame rails and envisioning how to route your lines is working on your car. It is something, one of many mundane things, you have to do but nobody wants to hear about it.

When somebody looks at a shop bill and goes WTF that means they probably never went through doing any of this stuff themselves. If somebody is going to do something right you are going to pay. If you do it yourself be patient because it is going to take you time.

So I made progress today. I spent 20 min following up with a source for stainless tubing in straight sticks so I don't have to try (unsuccessfully what a F:censored: bi:censored: if you don't have some fancy roller tool) to uncoil the long sections running down my frame rails. Nothing to show, but progress none the less.:D

Don't worry though I have some eye candy progress that I'll be posting coming around the corner. I just have to get some more of the boring stuff done so the car can actually run one day. :thumbsup:

Moral of all this babble. Take a breath and get somethign done even if you can't post it.:lol: One day you (I) will walk outside and have a car.

For now I'm still just an enlisted man in the Jackstand army.

:cheers: 100% correctamundo!!!

[fleetus macmullitz]

(Edit: now where'd I put my LS Camaro build manual? :lol:)

Paging Dr. Stielow...

:D

[INTMD8]

For anyone building a car yourself you fast begin to realize how much time things can take.

I spent a couple hours the other day accomplishing nothing with my hubs. Then I spent a couple hours building all my rotors. Then a couple more taking the hubs off the floater and test fitting the brakes. So I have a days work into it and not much to show in pictures but I have made a bunch of progress and when it comes time for finally assembly of my brakes it should go pretty smooth.

People lose sight of this when they drop a car off to be built. Just the grunt assembly work takes a considerable amount of time. Then the planning :headscratch:

We aren't building kit cars with instruction sheets or manuals (well there are those first gen LS Camaro builds :stirthepot: ) things need to be thought out.

Just staring at the frame rails and envisioning how to route your lines is working on your car. It is something, one of many mundane things, you have to do but nobody wants to hear about it.

When somebody looks at a shop bill and goes WTF that means they probably never went through doing any of this stuff themselves. If somebody is going to do something right you are going to pay. If you do it yourself be patient because it is going to take you time.

So I made progress today. I spent 20 min following up with a source for stainless tubing in straight sticks so I don't have to try (unsuccessfully what a F:censored: bi:censored: if you don't have some fancy roller tool) to uncoil the long sections running down my frame rails. Nothing to show, but progress none the less.:D

Don't worry though I have some eye candy progress that I'll be posting coming around the corner. I just have to get some more of the boring stuff done so the car can actually run one day. :thumbsup:

Moral of all this babble. Take a breath and get somethign done even if you can't post it.:lol: One day you (I) will walk outside and have a car.

For now I'm still just an enlisted man in the Jackstand army.

:cheers:

Great post! I have noticed that my car is failing to build itself, maybe I should have bought a 58 Fury instead.

[Flash68]

Sieg I'm sorry if I mislabeled your favorite carb tuning tool.




Yea thanks for pulling me aside. Those were dark days in Austin. Where is that Brian guy ... :guns:



Ha sometimes a bit of reality needs to set into these build threads. :snapout: Seeing huge amounts of work magically appear really gives the wrong impression.

:twak: I know, you know better Rick and you're just busting my chops.:D Remember that 69?

For anyone building a car yourself you fast begin to realize how much time things can take.

I spent a couple hours the other day accomplishing nothing with my hubs. Then I spent a couple hours building all my rotors. Then a couple more taking the hubs off the floater and test fitting the brakes. So I have a days work into it and not much to show in pictures but I have made a bunch of progress and when it comes time for finally assembly of my brakes it should go pretty smooth.

People lose sight of this when they drop a car off to be built. Just the grunt assembly work takes a considerable amount of time. Then the planning :headscratch:

We aren't building kit cars with instruction sheets or manuals (well there are those first gen LS Camaro builds :stirthepot: ) things need to be thought out.

Just staring at the frame rails and envisioning how to route your lines is working on your car. It is something, one of many mundane things, you have to do but nobody wants to hear about it.

When somebody looks at a shop bill and goes WTF that means they probably never went through doing any of this stuff themselves. If somebody is going to do something right you are going to pay. If you do it yourself be patient because it is going to take you time.

So I made progress today. I spent 20 min following up with a source for stainless tubing in straight sticks so I don't have to try (unsuccessfully what a F:censored: bi:censored: if you don't have some fancy roller tool) to uncoil the long sections running down my frame rails. Nothing to show, but progress none the less.:D

Don't worry though I have some eye candy progress that I'll be posting coming around the corner. I just have to get some more of the boring stuff done so the car can actually run one day. :thumbsup:

Moral of all this babble. Take a breath and get somethign done even if you can't post it.:lol: One day you (I) will walk outside and have a car.

For now I'm still just an enlisted man in the Jackstand army.

:cheers:

(Audience claps and gives standing ovation)

(Pause... silence)

"And now for the nominees in the next category.... Best Cookie Cutter Camaro"... (oh wait, that's from that other forum)

:popcorn2:


The destination is only a small part of the journey.

But certainly the best part!

[Ripped]

I spent 2 years blocksanding and doing bodywork, and another year bolting parts on, to make a car, so I kind of have a little empathy for you.

Once I get the engine in and the car on the road, that attitude will change ;)

It's all about a little progress at a time. Having really good music in the garage helps too. :_party: :_party:

BTW the wife was talking about driving down the coast from here through Oregon, through to Socal (we did that drive many years ago) won't be this summer, though.

[Ripped]

In case you need a daily driver, while you are working on your car, I found a pretty nice alternative for you;

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/cto/3896498099.html

[FETorino]

In case you need a daily driver, while you are working on your car, I found a pretty nice alternative for you;

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/cto/3896498099.html

Not a bad option but that is the biggest Torino of them all. 5 inches longer than mine with an inch more wheelbase. They also weight another 100-150lbs.:D

For a newer model Torino daily driver I'd opt for a 72 with a Cleveland.:thumbsup:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/800px-1972_Ford_Gran_Torino_Sport_SportsRoof_zps96018a2b .jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/800px-1972_Ford_Gran_Torino_Sport_SportsRoof_zps96018a2b .jpg.html)

[GregWeld]

So that's what they look like!?!?!?

[Rick D]

Now that is a land yacht! But that would be cool DD Rob :relax: Buy it! Buy it! Buy it!:thumbsup:

[FETorino]

So that's what they look like!?!?!?

Never pass up a chance to post a Torino Picture.:twak:

Now that is a land yacht! But that would be cool DD Rob :relax: Buy it! Buy it! Buy it!:thumbsup:

Hey I have to finish one Torino before I buy another. Building this one may kill me. :faint:

I think they look pretty good as a PT car. Look GW I just posted another Torino pic.:poke:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/1972_gran_torinofront_angle_zps8a6206a2.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/1972_gran_torinofront_angle_zps8a6206a2.jpg.html)

[Flash68]

I think it's time for another avatar change isn't it? I mean, you've had this one going for at least 24, maybe even 36 hours... ?

:headscratch:

[FETorino]

I think it's time for another avatar change isn't it? I mean, you've had this one going for at least 24, maybe even 36 hours... ?

:headscratch:

Are you saying this as a friend or a moderator:headscratch:

[Flash68]

Are you saying this as a friend or a moderator:headscratch:

60/40. :rules:

[FETorino]

I went outside and was thinking of starting on my lower steering shaft firewall plate. It was only 98 here today but that was hot enough for me to lose motivation for today.

I did take a shot of the lower portion of my column. You notice I ordered my column as a collapsable style. Some may say it is overkill in a rack and pinion steering set up to have a collapsible column but for a few extra $$ I'd say better safe than sorry.:bitchslap:

In the Woodward catalogue they discuss always using a collapsable shaft no matter the steering system set up. I think I'll trust them on that one.

It's not an AN fitting or a Bracket so I believe it is an appropriate picture to post.:rolleyes:


http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1937_zps2643b33c.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1937_zps2643b33c.jpg.html)

[intocarss]

I like that you think about safety

[GregWeld]

More importantly -- the picture is clear enough to actually see what you're trying to show us... Boring as that might be. I can see clearly now....


You know -- it was quite nice cruising the '32 in Sun Valley today... Got my Owners Rec Card picture done -- my season ski pass done -- a hair cut... dinner with friends on the patio... :>)

[FETorino]

I like that you think about safety

I may know who suggested the safety equipment section on the forum.:secret:

More importantly -- the picture is clear enough to actually see what you're trying to show us... Boring as that might be. I can see clearly now....


You know -- it was quite nice cruising the '32 in Sun Valley today... Got my Owners Rec Card picture done -- my season ski pass done -- a hair cut... dinner with friends on the patio... :>)

When the Briz gets the '33 finished -- so I can have a top and some A/C -- if you're running the second annual -- COUNT ME IN!!


This year - with the unreliable Steve Frisbee built '32.... not so much.

It all must have been within walking distance of home. :lmao: That's the nice thing about a small community like Sun Valley :thumbsup:

[FETorino]

I like that you think about safety

Wire

It was still oppressively hot today:fire: so I sat and watched the Rolex 6hr this am and multitasked on a little project I need to finish. :D One down 23 to go.:faint:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1945_zpsb098e86a.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1945_zpsb098e86a.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1946_zpsc6f6722d.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1946_zpsc6f6722d.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1948_zps5191415b.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1948_zps5191415b.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1964_zps81e967a6.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1964_zps81e967a6.jpg.html)
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1965_zpsb8e2aef1.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1965_zpsb8e2aef1.jpg.html)

[Sieg]

Nice work buddy!

That's my idea of a fun task. :thumbsup:

[Ron in SoCal]

Very nice Rob. Love that wire tool!

[Rick D]

Nice Rob, can never be to safe!! I haven't looked but where did you get those nice safety wire pliers? I'm loving all the details you are showing, and your pictures are looking better as well! :relax: :thumbsup:

[b757jetdr]

Rob,

Nice job on the wiring job! I know 20 yr aircraft mech that can't wire that good!:thumbsup:

I will have to dig up a tool I have here at work that will make that a TON easier, I will see it I can dig it up and post some pics!

[intocarss]

Looking good Rob, There's nothing like watching a lil TV and building your car from your Lazy boy!!

[FETorino]

Nice work buddy!

That's my idea of a fun task. :thumbsup:

Very nice Rob. Love that wire tool!

Nice Rob, can never be to safe!! I haven't looked but where did you get those nice safety wire pliers? I'm loving all the details you are showing, and your pictures are looking better as well! :relax: :thumbsup:

Looking good Rob, There's nothing like watching a lil TV and building your car from your Lazy boy!!

Thanks :D If I had to do this for a living I'd starve, I'm way too slow.:lmao:

Rob,

Nice job on the wiring job! I know 20 yr aircraft mech that can't wire that good!:thumbsup:

I will have to dig up a tool I have here at work that will make that a TON easier, I will see it I can dig it up and post some pics!

Cable ties would be the easy route that I know of. An Aircraft crimping tool Is my guess. I wonder what you are coming up with? :headscratch:

So I knocked out one of the rears. I think I'm going to grab a set of 6" pliers in both lefty and righty. It would make this process way faster. Between my sausage fingers and the old 9" safety wire pliers I have this rotor took me too long.


http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1966_zpsb60a6c4e.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1966_zpsb60a6c4e.jpg.html)

[Sieg]

Thanks :D If I had to do this for a living I'd starve, I'm way too slow.:lmao:


I can cook, can you afford groceries?

[b757jetdr]

Cable ties would be the easy route that I know of. An Aircraft crimping tool Is my guess. I wonder what you are coming up with? :headscratch:

So I knocked out one of the rears. I think I'm going to grab a set of 6" pliers in both lefty and righty. It would make this process way faster. Between my sausage fingers and the old 9" safety wire pliers I have this rotor took me too long.


http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1966_zpsb60a6c4e.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1966_zpsb60a6c4e.jpg.html)[/QUOTE]

Rob,

Pretty good guess and description. I have the 6" left and right pliers if you need them? I will dig up that tool tomorrow and see about some pics.

[FETorino]

So before I got around to safety wiring the rotors I had to build them up. It is a simple exercise but it took a bit of time to do. Part of this is me being anal about putting them together.

Why worry about assembling brake parts right.:lmao:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1989_zpsc618e490.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1989_zpsc618e490.jpg.html)

I'll run through this quick. It also gives me a chance to show off my Wilwood floating hats.:hapdance:

Here one is.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1973_zps7ae7549b.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1973_zps7ae7549b.jpg.html)

It's AL like most of the front hats but you'll notice the T slots in it instead of just threaded holes.

Into these you inset these little T nuts.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1968_zps209457fa.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1968_zps209457fa.jpg.html)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1974_zps977e9b3b.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1974_zps977e9b3b.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1976_zpse83d7269.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1976_zpse83d7269.jpg.html)

Man that is a crappy picture. I can't wait to hear GWs comment on that one. :rolleyes:

This allows the rotor to "float" on the hat. This really separates the hat and the rotor into two separate pieces. Having two separate sections of the rotor and hat helps to keep heat generated in the rotor off of the hat. By keeping the hat cool you are less likely to have any flex, giving you more feel and braking predictability under extreme braking conditions. A floating rotor also allows for much more contact surface between the rotor and brake pads since the rotor itself follows the path of the pads correcting any imperfection either may have as it floats.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1979_zpsc1ae3024.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1979_zpsc1ae3024.jpg.html)

Now with anything that requires a definitive torque value I make sure the threads are clean and free of burrs. In most cases that means a quick run of a tap through the threads.

In this case the stainless bolts are nice and hard compared to the T nuts so I just dry fitted them. If any of the bolts had bound as I was assembling the rotors I would have got a tap out for that one. :warning:

With these T nuts you use a small T wire to ensure the nuts don't rotate as you torque the bolts.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1980_zps65c2356b.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1980_zps65c2356b.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1983_zps761e80e0.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1983_zps761e80e0.jpg.html)

I didn't have any issues with this set. Once the rotors are completely assembled to hand tight it's time to loctite and torque them.

I use two sockets of the same size to make the next step easy. Once I torque a bolt I leave the socket on it and then go to the bolt directly across to torque in a criss cross pattern. the first socket serves as a marker to remind me where I just was.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_1986_zps2e5321eb.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_1986_zps2e5321eb.jpg.html)

Once you put a bit of loctite RED on all the bolts bolt and torque them to 125 in lbs (in this case) it's time to get out the safety wire pliers.:hairpullout:

:cheers:

[Sieg]

If you really wanted to show them off you should have taken FIRST SET of pictures IN @*^#$ FOCUS! :twak:

The second set get's you a big pat on the back.........you're actually making an effort! Women like that in a man. :thumbsup:


Man those are crappy pictures. I can't wait to hear GWs comment on that one. :rolleyes:


Why are you worried about GW? :bitchslap:

[FETorino]

Rob,

Pretty good guess and description. I have the 6" left and right pliers if you need them? I will dig up that tool tomorrow and see about some pics.

Maybe one of these dj1IZYcZGlY&feature

If you really wanted to show them off you should have taken FIRST SET of pictures IN @*^#$ FOCUS! :twak:

The second set get's you a big pat on the back.........you're actually making an effort! Women like that in a man. :thumbsup:



Why are you worried about GW? :bitchslap:

:lmao: I figured he'd beat you to complaining about the photo quality. But you were first. :trophy-1302:

[GregWeld]

Nice parts -- nice write up -- I see that Cheryl took some of the photos and you did a couple of the others?

[Sieg]

http://www.desmonorthwest.com/forums/images/smilies/pictime.gif :D

I've never seen that safety cable system, very cool and quick! :thumbsup:

[b757jetdr]

Rob,

That is the gem! We use it when access is limited. I will try and round mine up here at work and if your interested in trying it let me know.:thumbsup:

[intocarss]

Nice parts -- nice write up -- I see that Cheryl took some of the photos and you did a couple of the others?How do we all know that..... with all your :G-Dub: you just don't have a professional photographer on your payroll. Has anyone here ever seen a pic of GW with a camera in his hand?? :confused59: :stirthepot:

[Sieg]

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Other/Canon-18-135-EFS-STM/i-g5fBS6v/0/L/_MG_3828-L.jpg

:whistling:

[GregWeld]

Just when we need a GRAINY picture.....



:drowninga:

[fleetus macmullitz]

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Other/Canon-18-135-EFS-STM/i-g5fBS6v/0/L/_MG_3828-L.jpg

:whistling:

Sieg...FTW! :D

[intocarss]

Sieg sure has a lot of gold bling

[Sieg]

Sieg sure has a lot of gold bling:snapout: No gold on the wife, house, or car.........only gold in our family is a few old crowns. :lol: Silver, platinum, Ti, brushed-nickel, pewter, etc. is the way we roll. :D

[214Chevy]

Great looking brakes Rob. But, I have one question for you and anybody else can answer this. Why does one have to assemble Wilwood brakes for the money they cost? To me that is an inconvenience to the customer. I mean, I know there are more expensive brakes on the market, but to spend anywhere from $1200-$2000 and up on brakes and then have to assemble them is just bewildering to me. I understand some things in this hobby need assembling, but I haven't seen this practice too common with any other manufacturer that "I" know of. Again, great looking brakes and they look awesome, but I been wondering about that forever.

[FETorino]

Great looking brakes Rob. But, I have one question for you and anybody else can answer this. Why does one have to assemble Wilwood brakes for the money they cost? To me that is an inconvenience to the customer. I mean, I know there are more expensive brakes on the market, but to spend anywhere from $1200-$2000 and up on brakes and then have to assemble them is just bewildering to me. I understand some things in this hobby need assembling, but I haven't seen this practice too common with any other manufacturer that "I" know of. Again, great looking brakes and they look awesome, but I been wondering about that forever.

Nothing in life is free. You pay for everything one way or another. If your rotors came pre assembled to the hats then you paid for it in the cost of the brakes. I'd rather pay for R&D and material or machining costs than for assembly. I feel with Wilwood you get better quality at the same or lower price point than some of their competitors.

It may also have to do with inventory management. For my application I wanted 14" slotted e-coated rotors and floating hats.

Somebody else may substitute standard hats with the same rotors. or smaller rotors or drilled rotors, ect.

By not assembling the complete package you don't need to stock as much inventory and yet can likely have exactly what the customer wants in stock when they order. The customer doesn't get stuck with the choice of get what I have or wait:shakehead: For a smaller company they offer a large product line that is readily available.

I'd say their model works pretty good.:thumbsup:

[FETorino]

http://www.desmonorthwest.com/forums/images/smilies/pictime.gif :D

I've never seen that safety cable system, very cool and quick! :thumbsup:

You see Sieg my thread isn't all bad after all:mock:

Rob,

That is the gem! We use it when access is limited. I will try and round mine up here at work and if your interested in trying it let me know.:thumbsup:

Chris I wish you were closer I'd take you up on that. Right now I'm justifying adding one to my tool inventory. I mean they are only $:censored: plus about $1.10 per cable. :confused59:

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Other/Canon-18-135-EFS-STM/i-g5fBS6v/0/L/_MG_3828-L.jpg

:whistling:

:disgusted:

[Rick D]

Glad to see someone's posting progress pictures :poke: :thumbsup:

[intocarss]

Glad to see someone's posting progress pictures :poke: :thumbsup: Yup How do you like Siegs new hair do??

[Sieg]

Nothing in life is free. You pay for everything one way or another. If your rotors came pre assembled to the hats then you paid for it in the cost of the brakes. I'd rather pay for R&D and material or machining costs than for assembly. I feel with Wilwood you get better quality at the same or lower price point than some of their competitors.

It may also have to do with inventory management. For my application I wanted 14" slotted e-coated rotors and floating hats.

Somebody else may substitute standard hats with the same rotors. or smaller rotors or drilled rotors, ect.

By not assembling the complete package you don't need to stock as much inventory and yet can likely have exactly what the customer wants in stock when they order. The customer doesn't get stuck with the choice of get what I have or wait:shakehead: For a smaller company they offer a large product line that is readily available.

I'd say their model works pretty good.:thumbsup:
It's a Brake Buffet Extraordinaire!

All your points are good, though I wonder if liability factors in.

As previously mentioned I really enjoy assembling components like those. :yes:

[FETorino]

Hmm :ups:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/b39cfd8c-e99e-4ada-9143-b3c89d90b347_zps5e946b8d.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/b39cfd8c-e99e-4ada-9143-b3c89d90b347_zps5e946b8d.jpg.html)

[Track Junky]

http://i.imgur.com/Hkq3c.gif

[Matt@BOS]

http://i.imgur.com/Hkq3c.gif

Rob sent me a teaser shot:

http://ak2.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/3458762/preview/stock-footage-a-out-of-focus-background-focusing-on-a-wooden-judge-gavel-and-soundboard.jpg

[Ron in SoCal]

Rob sent me a teaser shot:

http://ak2.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/3458762/preview/stock-footage-a-out-of-focus-background-focusing-on-a-wooden-judge-gavel-and-soundboard.jpg

:lmao: :lmao:

Break open the boxes and nobody gets hurt :cool:

[Sieg]

Hmmm, let me guess.........

http://www.m2mfenders.eu/ekmps/shops/m2mfenders/images/double-eye-boat-fender-set-of-eight-6136-p.jpg

[65_LS1_T56]

:idea: wheels! :trophy-1302:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Hmm :ups:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/b39cfd8c-e99e-4ada-9143-b3c89d90b347_zps5e946b8d.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/b39cfd8c-e99e-4ada-9143-b3c89d90b347_zps5e946b8d.jpg.html)

Rob,

Just be careful when ya open 'em...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3290/3139163791_2b74e39395.jpg


:drowninga:


:lol:

[Flash68]

Rob,

Just be careful when ya open 'em...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3290/3139163791_2b74e39395.jpg


:drowninga:


:lol:

:lol: :lol: :lmao:

Bet something fancy lurks inside.... :sieg:

[Rick D]

:lol: :lol: :lmao:

Bet something fancy lurks inside.... :sieg:

No Robs not a fancy guy, I'm sure it's something for one of his Chevys that he owns?? :headspin:

OK Rob come on show us what's in the box??? Although I think most everyone know what's in the box :thumbsup:

[intocarss]

Ml675Qw1qTw

[fleetus macmullitz]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Lol!

[FETorino]

Snapped a quick shot as I headed out the door this morning. I've been working with DaleTx on my photography

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2009_zps46140cfa.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2009_zps46140cfa.jpg.html)

[Sieg]

Playin' the crowd pretty well I'd say.

Nice hoops :thumbsup:

[DaleTx]

Snapped a quick shot as I headed out the door this morning. I've been working with DaleTx on my photography

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2009_zps46140cfa.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2009_zps46140cfa.jpg.html)

Good job :thumbsup:

[FETorino]

Rob sent me a teaser shot:

http://ak2.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/3458762/preview/stock-footage-a-out-of-focus-background-focusing-on-a-wooden-judge-gavel-and-soundboard.jpg

Good job :thumbsup:

Thanks Dale it's really helped. Look at how much clearer this shot is than the teaser shot I sent Matt A last night. :D

Playin' the crowd pretty well I'd say.

Nice hoops :thumbsup:


Sieg why would you say that? :headscratch: you know I'd never mess with anyone. :innocent:


:cheers:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Bandwidth Police sighting...

http://www.fayekoss.com/Images/bandwidth%20police.png


http://img2-cdn.newser.com/square-image/19131-20110401021804/the-broadband-police-are-coming.jpeg

:lol:

[intocarss]

Put the camera down and get this pig on the road already!!:rules:

[FETorino]

http://i.imgur.com/Hkq3c.gif

Hmmm, let me guess.........

http://www.m2mfenders.eu/ekmps/shops/m2mfenders/images/double-eye-boat-fender-set-of-eight-6136-p.jpg

No Sieg not that one again:snapout:

:lol:

Bet something fancy lurks inside.... :sieg:

If by "fancy" you mean real proven race parts yes you are correct.:D

No Robs not a fancy guy, I'm sure it's something for one of his Chevys that he owns?? :headspin:

OK Rob come on show us what's in the box??? Although I think most everyone know what's in the box :thumbsup:

Nothing for those dam Vettes, Dam Vettes:bur2:

:idea: wheels! :trophy-1302:


Winner winner chicken dinner.....:excited:

My pictures don't do them justice.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2028_zpsef2b325a.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2028_zpsef2b325a.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2025_zpsa03f4d23.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2025_zpsa03f4d23.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2024_zpsc7ccc215.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2024_zpsc7ccc215.jpg.html)

[Ripped]

No Sieg not that one again:snapout:



If by "fancy" you mean real proven race parts yes you are correct.:D



Nothing for those dam Vettes, Dam Vettes:bur2:




Winner winner chicken dinner.....:excited:

My pictures don't do them justice.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2028_zpsef2b325a.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2028_zpsef2b325a.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2025_zpsa03f4d23.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2025_zpsa03f4d23.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2024_zpsc7ccc215.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2024_zpsc7ccc215.jpg.html)

Very nice, when's the rubber coming?

[Track Junky]

My pictures don't do them justice.

Neither does your post. How about some details high roller......:lol:

[FETorino]

Very nice, when's the rubber coming?

Already have em. Michelin Pilot SS 285 35 18 and 345 30 19

Neither does your post. How about some details high roller......:lol:

:thankyou: for pulling me aside Gae :lmao: I figured you'd like the color and that would be enough info.

First off let me say that Travis at Formula 43 was a huge help in putting this set together for me.

The wheels are Formula 43 RAD10 Clubsports. They no provision for centercaps and the I beam lightening on the spokes.

The fronts are 18x10.5 and the rears are 19x13s. I weighed them with my hanging hay scale and the fronts come in around 22 and the rears around 24.

They have a couple little custom touches to them. More to follow on that later



:cheers:

[Track Junky]

Thank you sir. Much obliged. You know gentlemen like me take a liking to that sort of thing. :guns::lol:

EDIT: Disclaimer: The message above was written after numerous cocktails last night and should be a testament that drinking and typing is not a safe practice.

[Rick D]

Very nice Rob, man this Ford is going to be sick:thumbsup:

So not push you and I know it's a holiday but can we get some mock up pictures :D :poke: when you have some time of course!! :relax:

[67zo6Camaro]

Sitting on a beach somewhere feeling bored.... I turn to latG for some entertainment. BAM.... Progress and pictures. :trophy-1302:

[Flash68]

Dang those look GOOD.....



































on a Chivy.

[Track Junky]

Already have em. Michelin Pilot SS 285 35 18 and 345 30 19



:thankyou: for pulling me aside Gae :lmao: I figured you'd like the color and that would be enough info.

First off let me say that Travis at Formula 43 was a huge help in putting this set together for me.

The wheels are Formula 43 RAD10 Clubsports. They no provision for centercaps and the I beam lightening on the spokes.

The fronts are 18x10.5 and the rears are 19x13s. I weighed them with my hanging hay scale and the fronts come in around 22 and the rears around 24.

They have a couple little custom touches to them. More to follow on that later



:cheers:

I know you went down this road but I have to ask......whats stopping you from putting 315's up front?

[Flash68]

I know you went down this road but I have to ask......whats stopping you from putting 315's up front?

He prefers the push of a 275/345 setup....

[214Chevy]

Snapped a quick shot as I headed out the door this morning. I've been working with DaleTx on my photography

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2009_zps46140cfa.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2009_zps46140cfa.jpg.html)

0cmqwbZa6_w


:ups:
Wheels look good Rob. Now mount them on their rubber and post pics.

[FETorino]

Sitting on a beach somewhere feeling bored.... I turn to latG for some entertainment. BAM.... Progress and pictures. :trophy-1302:

I hope you are doing your homework assignment.:D

Very nice Rob, man this Ford is going to be sick:thumbsup:

So not push you and I know it's a holiday but can we get some mock up pictures :D :poke: when you have some time of course!! :relax:

That's going to have to wait a bit. I have a few other detail surprises coming that I need to finish before you'll see that.:secret:

Already have em. Michelin Pilot SS 285 35 18 and 345 30 19



He prefers the push of a 275/345 setup....

Great attention to detail as always DG:twak:

I know you went down this road but I have to ask......whats stopping you from putting 315's up front?

That could start a long topic of discussion in the tire and wheel section, or on this thread. Maybe someone like Ron Sutton will chime in with his thoughts.

First I have limitations to tire size, self imposed limitations because I don't want to do any noticeable modifications to the body of my car.

Starting with that in mind and the black art of tires in general I evaluated the need for steam roller tires in the front. I am by no means an engineer or an expert on this. I have been playing with things that go fast around corners be it Cars, carts or motorcycles for 30+ years so I have some first hand experience and I've done a lot of research on this crap over the years.:headscratch:

First I believe JMO that wider is not the be all end all JMO. I have read and agree that there are benefits to width that go hand in hand with tire height and rim width that dictate the optimum contact patch for a combo. Weight on the tire,more importantly load which is affected by suspension design the cars weight and moment arm all play into it. then you get down to important factors like air pressure adjustment and heat buildup. Just slamming the largest tire you can stuff doesn't guarantee success.

Think of it this way. The contact patch to contact patch is the true track width. If I widen the tires by using more offset I narrow the track width. I also start messing with scrub radius as that patch moves to the inside of the line from the top balljoint through the bottom to the eventual point on the ground.

Im not racing in the Rolex series so no use over-thinking it but I didn't want to go far out on a limb in any one direction.

So I took in some ways a conservative approach and right or wrong a big part started with aesthetics.

I didn't want a 1" or 1.5" outer lip on my front wheel. To me that give a Jiffy POP look of th center popping out of the hoop. :disgusted: :underchair: JMO I don't like it.

I also didn't want to be stretching or flaring the front fenders.

This also go me thinking about rim width. Why does one guy run a 275 on a 9" wheel and the Nissan guys run one on an 11"?

From all my reading, to a point,not always, wider is better for rim width if it is within the tire manufacturers recommendations.

Look at Porsche they regularly spec tires on Wider than recommended wheel widths from the factory.

My goal was the flattest tread profile for whatever tire size I choose. In reading every .5" of added rim with will add .2" of measured tread width on the same size tire. I looked to match the wheel width and tread with dimension for my chosen tire heights.

I wanted a 26" tall front and 27" tall rear tire to fill my wheel wells and maximize the length of the contact patch and the tires ability to radiate heat.

Out back that was a no brainer. 345 30 19 on a 13" wide wheel. This is the Dodge Viper spec. Michelin built that tire originally for the Dodge Viper. Am I smarter than those companies engineers? No.

So what to match it with up front. Well a front engine rear wheel drive 3400lbs Viper uses a 275/345 combo with a 50/50 weight distribution. I may not get to 50/50 but I'm trying to get as close as possible. I'm also hoping to come in around that weight. Before anyone else says it I know there are more factors than that. To start with CG to Roll center creates a moment arm which actually influences load on the tire as much as total weight. Like I said before I'm not building a Rolex competitive racer so I'll keep it simple.

I borrowed a 275 35 18 mounted on a wheel from Ron, thanks again Ron and a 295 35 18 tire from Brett, thanks bud. the 275 was an easy fit and the 295 ,using my wheel fit tool, was a little big. A 285 should be just right I thought.

Here is where Travis really came through. I had communicated with him a few months ago about a quote for my wheels. I really like the fact his wheels were clean timeless designs and engineered for and used in racing. From my wheelfit measurements I was pretty certain I had a BS measurement and wanted a 10.5" wide wheel wheel.

The 10.5" wheel did two things. The measured tread width of a 285 Mich on a 10" wheel was 10.2" So adding .2" for a .5" increase in wheel width this gave me 10.4" tread width on a 10.5" wheel width. A good match in my mind. It also gave me a 2" outside lip with my backspace measurement to avoid Jiffypop.

In speaking with Travis he said he could build a test wheel to the same specs I thought I needed actually try it on the car. Hell yea. A week alter I had a borrowed wheel made from both new , blem and used parts. Travis sealed it so I could mount and air up my tire.

This was a huge help. I was able to confirm my thinking on backspace, the profile of the 285 on the 10.5 matching that of the rear tire, double checking caliper clearance and getting a real world visual can't be topped.

Tires are disposable items. My car won't be painted before I actually start tuning the set up. I plan on running it in shake down form for a while before I really finish it pretty. If I decide to go wider and do more tweaking on the body it won't be big deal. The 10.5" lets me use a 295 or 305 and still get a good footprint if in the end I feel the 285 is a limiting factor.

I still think the 285 on the 10.5" wheel will give me all the front bite I need if my shocks, springs and bars are tuned correctly.

Gae Last post you accused me of underwhelming you with lack of detail so you are to blame for this one.:mock:

:cheers:

[Vegas69]

I agree with the notion that slapping a tire on a wheel that is to small or on the smaller side of the range may be counter productive. I do however think the biggest tire on the front(Right width wheel) with a reasonable stagger is the best way to go. You notice the Vette/Viper have decreased their stagger and increased front width lately. These old muscle cars are nose heavy and they want to push. You'll find yourself continually looking for an increase in front grip while you own the car. You'll naturally have more lateral rear grip at your disposal which means you will be decreasing rear grip to get chassis balance. I'd say a smaller rear tire would net better side and forward bite due to a slightly more desirable spring rate/shock setting.

Don't get me wrong, I think you can get the car to handle nicely.

[214Chevy]

...I didn't want a 1" or 1.5" outer lip on my front wheel. To me that give a Jiffy POP look of th center popping out of the hoop. :disgusted: :underchair: JMO I don't like it.

Rob, I agree with you 1000% on this. That's why my fronts have a 3" lip.

[FETorino]

I agree with the notion that slapping a tire on a wheel that is to small or on the smaller side of the range may be counter productive. I do however think the biggest tire on the front(Right width wheel) with a reasonable stagger is the best way to go. You notice the Vette/Viper have decreased their stagger and increased front width lately. These old muscle cars are nose heavy and they want to push. You'll find yourself continually looking for an increase in front grip while you own the car. You'll naturally have more lateral rear grip at your disposal which means you will be decreasing rear grip to get chassis balance. I'd say a smaller rear tire would net better side and forward bite due to a slightly more desirable spring rate/shock setting.

Don't get me wrong, I think you can get the car to handle nicely.

I was probably still typing some of the post while yo were posting this. I believe the new Viper is 295/355 so the stagger is pretty similar to my 285/345.


I don't disagree that a 325 out back might not be a better handling choice but we will have to wait and see.

I've got a pretty big mass of sheet metal out back on my car so once I get the motor in it will be interesting to see what my scales tell me.

As I said tires are disposable. It will be interesting when I get out of building mode and not the more difficult part.

Tuning:popcorn2:

Edit

And Todd I do appreciate your real world input on this since you lived through it when you built Payback.

[DBasher]

Saw this and thought of your build, pretty nice ride. I plan to stop in and talk with him next week and get some details on it, I know he drives it daily.

:gitrdun:
Dan

[WSSix]

Good info and great looking wheels, Rob! I think you're taking the right approach to all this. It's going to be a great car.

[Track Junky]

That could start a long topic of discussion in the tire and wheel section, or on this thread. Maybe someone like Ron Sutton will chime in with his thoughts.

First I have limitations to tire size, self imposed limitations because I don't want to do any noticeable modifications to the body of my car.

Starting with that in mind and the black art of tires in general I evaluated the need for steam roller tires in the front. I am by no means an engineer or an expert on this. I have been playing with things that go fast around corners be it Cars, carts or motorcycles for 30+ years so I have some first hand experience and I've done a lot of research on this crap over the years.:headscratch:

First I believe JMO that wider is not the be all end all JMO. I have read and agree that there are benefits to width that go hand in hand with tire height and rim width that dictate the optimum contact patch for a combo. Weight on the tire,more importantly load which is affected by suspension design the cars weight and moment arm all play into it. then you get down to important factors like air pressure adjustment and heat buildup. Just slamming the largest tire you can stuff doesn't guarantee success.

Think of it this way. The contact patch to contact patch is the true track width. If I widen the tires by using more offset I narrow the track width. I also start messing with scrub radius as that patch moves to the inside of the line from the top balljoint through the bottom to the eventual point on the ground.

Im not racing in the Rolex series so no use over-thinking it but I didn't want to go far out on a limb in any one direction.

So I took in some ways a conservative approach and right or wrong a big part started with aesthetics.

I didn't want a 1" or 1.5" outer lip on my front wheel. To me that give a Jiffy POP look of th center popping out of the hoop. :disgusted: :underchair: JMO I don't like it.

I also didn't want to be stretching or flaring the front fenders.

This also go me thinking about rim width. Why does one guy run a 275 on a 9" wheel and the Nissan guys run one on an 11"?

From all my reading, to a point,not always, wider is better for rim width if it is within the tire manufacturers recommendations.

Look at Porsche they regularly spec tires on Wider than recommended wheel widths from the factory.

My goal was the flattest tread profile for whatever tire size I choose. In reading every .5" of added rim with will add .2" of measured tread width on the same size tire. I looked to match the wheel width and tread with dimension for my chosen tire heights.

I wanted a 26" tall front and 27" tall rear tire to fill my wheel wells and maximize the length of the contact patch and the tires ability to radiate heat.

Out back that was a no brainer. 345 30 19 on a 13" wide wheel. This is the Dodge Viper spec. Michelin built that tire originally for the Dodge Viper. Am I smarter than those companies engineers? No.

So what to match it with up front. Well a front engine rear wheel drive 3400lbs Viper uses a 275/345 combo with a 50/50 weight distribution. I may not get to 50/50 but I'm trying to get as close as possible. I'm also hoping to come in around that weight. Before anyone else says it I know there are more factors than that. To start with CG to Roll center creates a moment arm which actually influences load on the tire as much as total weight. Like I said before I'm not building a Rolex competitive racer so I'll keep it simple.

I borrowed a 275 35 18 mounted on a wheel from Ron, thanks again Ron and a 295 35 18 tire from Brett, thanks bud. the 275 was an easy fit and the 295 ,using my wheel fit tool, was a little big. A 285 should be just right I thought.

Here is where Travis really came through. I had communicated with him a few months ago about a quote for my wheels. I really like the fact his wheels were clean timeless designs and engineered for and used in racing. From my wheelfit measurements I was pretty certain I had a BS measurement and wanted a 10.5" wide wheel wheel.

The 10.5" wheel did two things. The measured tread width of a 285 Mich on a 10" wheel was 10.2" So adding .2" for a .5" increase in wheel width this gave me 10.4" tread width on a 10.5" wheel width. A good match in my mind. It also gave me a 2" outside lip with my backspace measurement to avoid Jiffypop.

In speaking with Travis he said he could build a test wheel to the same specs I thought I needed actually try it on the car. Hell yea. A week alter I had a borrowed wheel made from both new , blem and used parts. Travis sealed it so I could mount and air up my tire.

This was a huge help. I was able to confirm my thinking on backspace, the profile of the 285 on the 10.5 matching that of the rear tire, double checking caliper clearance and getting a real world visual can't be topped.

Tires are disposable items. My car won't be painted before I actually start tuning the set up. I plan on running it in shake down form for a while before I really finish it pretty. If I decide to go wider and do more tweaking on the body it won't be big deal. The 10.5" lets me use a 295 or 305 and still get a good footprint if in the end I feel the 285 is a limiting factor.

I still think the 285 on the 10.5" wheel will give me all the front bite I need if my shocks, springs and bars are tuned correctly.

Gae Last post you accused me of underwhelming you with lack of detail so you are to blame for this one.:mock:

:cheers:

I agree to a point. There are alot of variables to take into account when ordering wheel and tire sizes. In our hobby a big one is astetics. Astetics play no part in the way our cars perform yet we are always shooting for how any given wheel design will look with a stepped lip, flat lip, offset, etc. On the same note we are not profesional race car drivers, nor engineers, and it would take a substantial bit of resources to design the perfect wheel/tire design combination for any of our given vehicles so we are left with making our own educated guesses. This is where we start to run into issues with ackerman, scrub radius, etc and is in such our dilemma.

In your case we can anticipate that your tires will be carrying "quite a load" if you will :hello: . In turn it's a no brainer that a wider, taller tire out back will be warranted due to the amount of power you will be putting down to the ground.

Now the dilemma......I have chosen a big ass 345 to handle the rear load but what size up front. IMO smart money goes with the widest I can get that will compliment the rears and I dont believe 285's are going to do it. Reason being I used to run 275's all around and had my car neutral. When I mini-tubbed my car and installed 315's out back just for the cool factor the car began to push. I'm still working on getting my car neutral again.

If your adiment about the 285's look into the load ratings for the different heights of the 285's and 345's. Try and choose load ratings that will compliment each other.

Like you said.....tires are disposable........choose wisely my friend. :thumbsup:

[FETorino]

Saw this and thought of your build, pretty nice ride. I plan to stop in and talk with him next week and get some details on it, I know he drives it daily.

:gitrdun:
Dan

Wow Dan that is a Cyclone Spoiler II with the Aero droop nose. King of Talladega and Daytona in it's day. Check out the front bumper. Ford actually took a rear bumper and put it on the front to act as an air dam due to it's taller height. Early splitter right there.:lmao:

[FETorino]

I agree to a point. There are alot of variables to take into account when ordering wheel and tire sizes. In our hobby a big one is astetics. Astetics play no part in the way our cars perform yet we are always shooting for how any given wheel design will look with a stepped lip, flat lip, offset, etc. On the same note we are not profesional race car drivers, nor engineers, and it would take a substantial bit of resources to design the perfect wheel/tire design combination for any of our given vehicles so we are left with making our own educated guesses. This is where we start to run into issues with ackerman, scrub radius, etc and is in such our dilemma.

In your case we can anticipate that your tires will be carrying "quite a load" if you will :hello: . In turn it's a no brainer that a wider, taller tire out back will be warranted due to the amount of power you will be putting down to the ground.

Now the dilemma......I have chosen a big ass 345 to handle the rear load but what size up front. IMO smart money goes with the widest I can get that will compliment the rears and I dont believe 285's are going to do it. Reason being I used to run 275's all around and had my car neutral. When I mini-tubbed my car and installed 315's out back just for the cool factor the car began to push. I'm still working on getting my car neutral again.

If your adiment about the 285's look into the load ratings for the different heights of the 285's and 345's. Try and choose load ratings that will compliment each other.

Like you said.....tires are disposable........choose wisely my friend. :thumbsup:

Did you raise the nose at the same time? If not the increase in rake alone could have unsettled your previous tune. There is no doubt a change in tires without a change in tune would not likely be an improvement. I bet you'll get it back where you want it AFTER you install that Accusump.

None of these cars (most anyway) will be a compromise. Like Carroll Smith says in Tune to Win (I'm paraphrasing) you could have the best set up on paper and if you don't tune it right it's crap and our could have crap and tune it well and have a fast car.

I remember some guy with a chivy running some fast laps with a 275/325 combo last year. I think I can get the 285 to work good enough.

[Track Junky]

Did you raise the nose at the same time? If not the increase in rake alone could have unsettled your previous tune. There is no doubt a change in tires without a change in tune would not likely be an improvement. I bet you'll get it back where you want it AFTER you install that Accusump.

None of these cars (most anyway) will be a compromise. Like Carroll Smith says in Tune to Win (I'm paraphrasing) you could have the best set up on paper and if you don't tune it right it's crap and our could have crap and tune it well and have a fast car.

I remember some guy with a chivy running some fast laps with a 275/325 combo last year. I think I can get the 285 to work good enough.

Nose was raised an inch but I dont think that would play much of a factor and was done to get more travel up front. Tires were the same diameter and didn't factor in raking the car. I know what I need to do and the car is now equipped with all the tools I need to get it right(minus the shocks) just need more track time to get it there.

Anyhow, not trying to bust your balls and hope it works out great for you

[Matt@BOS]

It's a Ford. Why are you guys spending so much time debating whether or not the front tire will be a limiting factor? :lol:

I'm sure Rob will be able to get this Torino faster than a lot of people expect, but I don't think that it will be an easy car to drive fast on a tight course, and I'm not saying that because we're talking about a big car here. Getting the car balanced enough to rotate quickly and be proper fast will require a lot of work. I have no doubt it can be made fast, but I bet it will be much more of a handful to drive than a car with similar sized tire front to rear. On a big course, I bet the tire stagger won't be as big a deal as people think.

I'd argue that on a road course like Big Willow the average driver of a pro touring car like we have, would be more comfortable and being able to push his or her car to faster lap times than if the same car was loose.

p.s. I've driven in some car's *cough* Tom's Mustang *cough* with tires that were too big for the wheels and it was very apparent. You could feel the weight transfer onto a corner and then continue to move out laterally as the sidewall deflected and rolled over. I've never felt that on the 9" /275 combo I have, and much prefer it to the 9"/255 combo I once had.

[Vegas69]

No problem, I'm always happy to share. With an RS chassis, you should be close if the engineering is right. When I sold my car I had it where I could make a few shock adjustments and have a good autocross car and road course car on the same day. That's when you'll know your chassis is really close to where it needs to be for a "Pro Touring" car.

Bottom line, you won't know what you have until the first corner. The tuning was one of my favorite factors in the build process. Making progress you can feel.

[Ron Sutton]

The wheels are Formula 43 RAD10 Clubsports. They no provision for centercaps and the I beam lightening on the spokes.

The fronts are 18x10.5 and the rears are 19x13s. I weighed them with my hanging hay


If that scale is accurate, that is a great light weight ... for that size of wheels.

[Ron Sutton]

Thank you sir. Much obliged. You know gentlemen like me take a liking to that sort of thing. :guns::lol:

EDIT: Disclaimer: The message above was written after numerous cocktails last night and should be a testament that drinking and typing is not a safe practice.

That's funny right there. :lmao:

[Ron Sutton]

Hi Guys,

That could start a long topic of discussion in the tire and wheel section, or on this thread. Maybe someone like Ron Sutton will chime in with his thoughts.
Rob you’re right on this being a involved topic of discussion … but hey … what are we on here for besides seeing cool projects progress. I’ll chime in & add info to help in your decisions, but it’s your car & your decisions.

First I have limitations to tire size, self imposed limitations because I don't want to do any noticeable modifications to the body of my car.
This personal preference is what makes our cars different. Otherwise, if optimum performance was our only priority, we’ll all be building F1 cars.

Starting with that in mind and the black art of tires in general I evaluated the need for steam roller tires in the front. I am by no means an engineer or an expert on this. I have been playing with things that go fast around corners be it Cars, carts or motorcycles for 30+ years so I have some first hand experience and I've done a lot of research on this crap over the years.

First I believe JMO that wider is not the be all end all JMO. I have read and agree that there are benefits to width that go hand in hand with tire height and rim width that dictate the optimum contact patch for a combo. Weight on the tire,more importantly load which is affected by suspension design the cars weight and moment arm all play into it. then you get down to important factors like air pressure adjustment and heat buildup. Just slamming the largest tire you can stuff doesn't guarantee success.
Agreed. More to it than that.

But the amount of tire contact patch & the compound of that tire … is the #1 factor to grip … and therefore to speed. Everything we do in suspension tuning is to optimize the tires contact patch & load.

Other than singular purpose built Formula, Indy, GTP, Midgets & Sprint Cars … production type car’s typical limiting factor … is front end grip. In all my Stock Car & GT & Sedan Road Racing ventures, we know we can’t go any faster through the corners than the front end has grip. If we haven’t gone off the range with TW split or tire size split … it is relatively easy to balance the rear grip to the front. The front grip is top priority & typically where I have an edge over my competitors because I understand it well.

Think of it this way. The contact patch to contact patch is the true track width.
Dynamically, this is very true. Hopefully, you’re using the full tread width for contact patch with optimum front end geometry. I see a lot of cars with 8”,10”, even 12” of front tire tread … using only 40-60% of it in the corners because their geometry is out to lunch.

If I widen the tires by using more offset I narrow the track width. I also start messing with scrub radius as that patch moves to the inside of the line from the top balljoint through the bottom to the eventual point on the ground.
You are correct in what moving things affect, but “typically” those changes are positive changes. (Always exceptions). A typical scrub radius on PT cars with 275/285 tires falls in the 1.5-2” window. With zero being optimum, most cars can move the tire “in” with deeper offset wheels & improve the scrub radius. Your target doesn’t “have to be” zero … just know smaller scrub radius help the car to “cut” in the middle of corners where you’re running a late apex & makes a huge improvement in tight corners on road courses, back roads & AutoX.

On track width (center of tread to center of tread for any readers not familiar) … the optimum F/R TW split falls somewhere in the window of -1” to +1” depending on the cars weight distribution & suspension travel strategy. When a car has significantly more front weight distribution … say 53-56% … the front naturally wants to roll more than the rear. Having the front track width a little wider helps balance the car’s roll angle. I don’t like to have the front TW more than 1” wider than the rear, or the roll angle balance goes the other direction & the car wants to roll over on the outside rear tire too much.

With the much wider rear tires moving the rear TW "in" ... I suspect your rear track width is substantially narrower than your front & will contribute to things that cause a push condition. You should measure both front & rear track widths & post the info. If the rear is more than 1” narrower than the front … and if you care about this … then you would want to narrow the FTW, or widen the RTW or a balance of both. I later learned Rob's Torino body is wider in the rear, so he has a 2" wider TW in the rear than the front. 58" rear & 56" front, which we discuss how that will free the car up later in the thread.

In case this is new to anyone, Wider front TW than rear = tightens the car … too much makes it push. Wider rear TW than front = frees the car … too much makes it loose. If the car has more rear weight, I may, or may not, run the rear wider than the front. It does depend on if the suspension travel strategy is “high roll/low pitch” or “low roll/high pitch”.

If you’re not clear on this … a handling car HAS TO travel the suspension to work. You can not run it flat “low roll & low pitch” as it will push … and you can not run soft everything because “high roll & high pitch” will be loose. The old school strategy with stiff front springs & small-med sway bars is “high roll/low pitch.” The new-ish strategy (last 20 years) is soft front springs & large to OMG sway bars is “low roll/high pitch”.

I use TW split as a design tool to help balance un-balanced cars … and … as a track day tuning tool to balance the car’s roll angle. Ultimately, you need to have optimum grip on all tires and disengage the inside rear tire (to a degree) to turn well … then re-engage the inside rear tire (to a higher degree) for maximum forward bite on exit. So, on entry & mid-corner, the car needs to roll less in the front to keep both front tires engaged for optimum front end grip, while allowing the car to roll slightly more in the rear to disengage the inside rear tire, to a small degree, to turn better. For optimal exit, the car will have more roll in the front & less in the rear to re-engage the inside rear tire to a higher degree than it was on entry & exit, for maximum forward bite (traction) on exit.

I'm not racing in the Rolex series so no use over-thinking it but I didn't want to go far out on a limb in any one direction.
With the big difference in tire size, you are going out on a limb in one direction. But it’s your car, and I’m a fan of it making you happy. I know I’m building my car for me & my priorities.

So I took in some ways a conservative approach and right or wrong a big part started with aesthetics.
It’s your baby. :D

I didn't want a 1" or 1.5" outer lip on my front wheel. To me that give a Jiffy POP look of the center popping out of the hoop. JMO I don't like it.
Again, it’s your baby. :D

I also didn't want to be stretching or flaring the front fenders.
I believe this comes down to each person’s priorities. Another guy I’m helping is putting on fenders allowing him to add 1.25” of tread on the outside, to go along with the added 1.25” of tread on the inside.

My post was so long ... SURPRISE ... It had to be split into two posts. Part 2 is in the next post.

[Ron Sutton]

Part 2 of previous Post / Related, but new topic:

(This is still Rob in SoCal talking)
This also go me thinking about rim width. Why does one guy run a 275 on a 9" wheel and the Nissan guys run one on an 11"?

From all my reading, to a point,not always, wider is better for rim width if it is within the tire manufacturers recommendations. Look at Porsche they regularly spec tires on Wider than recommended wheel widths from the factory. My goal was the flattest tread profile for whatever tire size I choose. In reading every .5" of added rim with will add .2" of measured tread width on the same size tire. I looked to match the wheel width and tread with dimension for my chosen tire heights.

Some tire & wheel basics: Whatever tire width you put on whatever rim width … there is a “happy window” of tire pressure to achieve a full & even tire contact patch on the pavement. Every tire sidewall acts like a spring and the spring rate is affected by tire pressure. More pressure = higher spring rate. All tires do weird things when you get them out of their optimum spring rate. Until just recently I had & utilized an Intercomp tire sidewall spring rater to test sidewall spring rates of different tire & rim combinations to find their “happy window” & to know at what point they got weird.

When you have the tread width wider than the rim width, you have to run lower tire pressure to achieve a full & even tire contact patch on the pavement ... otherwise you’re “crowning” the tire & using less than the full tread width. This lower tire pressure makes the tire sidewall spring rate “softer.” The softer sidewall COMBINED with the fat tire sidewall bulge, leads to the tire “moving around” on the rim substantially. This is ugly when the car is pushed hard, like in track days or AutoX, but provides a softer ride.

When you have the tread width narrower than the rim width, you have to run higher tire pressure to achieve a full & even tire contact patch on the pavement ... otherwise the tire tread goes “concave” … not utilizing the center tread … ending up with less dyanamic tread width. This additional tire pressure makes the tire sidewall spring rate “stiffer.” The stiffer sidewall COMBINED with little to no tire sidewall bulge, makes the tire substantially “more stable” on the rim. This combination performs best … BY FAR … when the car is pushed hard, like in track days or AutoX, but provides a harsh ride.

I wanted a 26" tall front and 27" tall rear tire to fill my wheel wells and maximize the length of the contact patch and the tires ability to radiate heat. Out back that was a no brainer. 345 30 19 on a 13" wide wheel. This is the Dodge Viper spec. Michelin built that tire originally for the Dodge Viper. Am I smarter than those companies engineers? No.
Not to be a smart ass … ok … being a little bit of a smart ass … is your car a Dodge Viper … with the same suspension set-up & geometry? No. :poke:
In my opinion, I always suggest when you’re copying something, be clear on why.

So what to match it with up front. Well a front engine rear wheel drive 3400lbs Viper uses a 275/345 combo with a 50/50 weight distribution. I may not get to 50/50 but I'm trying to get as close as possible.
That will be awesome. The closer you get the weight balanced front to rear … and side to side … WITHOUT placing weigh out past either axle to get it … will be beneficial. Get as close as you can.

I'm also hoping to come in around that weight. Before anyone else says it I know there are more factors than that. To start with CG to Roll center creates a moment arm which actually influences load on the tire as much as total weight. Like I said before I'm not building a Rolex competitive racer so I'll keep it simple.
Sounds smart. Working with track width, tire & rim width are simple, predicatable tools.

I borrowed a 275 35 18 mounted on a wheel from Ron, thanks again Ron and a 295 35 18 tire from Brett, thanks bud. the 275 was an easy fit and the 295 ,using my wheel fit tool, was a little big. A 285 should be just right I thought.

Here is where Travis really came through. I had communicated with him a few months ago about a quote for my wheels. I really like the fact his wheels were clean timeless designs and engineered for and used in racing. From my wheelfit measurements I was pretty certain I had a BS measurement and wanted a 10.5" wide wheel wheel.

The 10.5" wheel did two things. The measured tread width of a 285 Mich on a 10" wheel was 10.2" So adding .2" for a .5" increase in wheel width this gave me 10.4" tread width on a 10.5" wheel width. A good match in my mind. It also gave me a 2" outside lip with my backspace measurement to avoid Jiffypop.
I really need to expand my terminology. I’m behind. Does “Jiffypop” mean the wheel center is crowned out … or flush with the outer edge of the wheel … or both?

In speaking with Travis he said he could build a test wheel to the same specs I thought I needed actually try it on the car. Hell yea. A week alter I had a borrowed wheel made from both new , blem and used parts. Travis sealed it so I could mount and air up my tire.

This was a huge help. I was able to confirm my thinking on backspace, the profile of the 285 on the 10.5 matching that of the rear tire, double checking caliper clearance and getting a real world visual can't be topped.

Tires are disposable items. My car won't be painted before I actually start tuning the set up. I plan on running it in shake down form for a while before I really finish it pretty. If I decide to go wider and do more tweaking on the body it won't be big deal. The 10.5" lets me use a 295 or 305 and still get a good footprint if in the end I feel the 285 is a limiting factor.

My suggestion would be … if anything I wrote influences you to go to wider front tires … do it now. Do it once & do it right, by getting wheels that are a little wider than the tread width. But if you’re happy with the 285’s … party on Garth.

I still think the 285 on the 10.5" wheel will give me all the front bite I need if my shocks, springs and bars are tuned correctly.
This will be your limiting factor in performance driving. If you really dial in the front suspension … use enough caster to end up with a KPI/Caster split favoring the caster by 1.0+ degrees, moderate camber gain, -1.0 camber, correct toe-out/Ackerman balance, zero bump steer & the optimum roll center … plus the optimum sway bar, spring & shock combo … the car can go no faster in the corner than the 285’s can grip. So you will be reducing the grip of the rear end to match the 285’s. As far as the performance is concerned, you might as well run 285’s on the rear, because all the tuning you do, will be to reduce the grip of the tires to the level of 285’s.

Now I’m going to take a different position.
This isn’t a race car. It’s your car. It’s your car to drive & have fun in however you want it to be. That may include track days, competitions, spirited driving, etc. I think you should build it the way you want it, which is what I love about Hot Rodding in general & Pro Touring in particular. I get the look you’re going after … because I like it too.

For looks: I also prefer a small 1.5-2” lip on the front wheels & a deeper dish (lip) on the rear wheels.

For handling: I prefer to get the scrub radius down to zero or close to it, which requires the face of the wheel to be moved out close to flush, kind of like the SCCA GT1/Pro Trans Am cars are. For me, handling always ends up winning on the priority list.

I attached a photo of my "Street tires & wheels" from American Racing. I think they look ok. But they "Jiffypop" so I could achieve a zero scrub radius front suspension.

In the photo:
On the Left, are my flush face front wheels: 18x10" AR "Burnout" VN472 Wheel with 8" backspacing. Tires are Nitto NT555 285/35ZR18
On the Right are my deep dish rear wheels: 20x12 AR "Burnout" VN472 Wheel with 4" backspacing. Tires are M/T S/R 29X15.00R20 = 365/30/20

* For Autocross & Track Driving these tires & wheels come off & "front & rear matching size" tires & wheels go on.
BFG Rivals 335/18/30 on 18x13” CCW lightweight LM5 rims.

...

[Ron Sutton]

I agree with the notion that slapping a tire on a wheel that is to small or on the smaller side of the range may be counter productive. I do however think the biggest tire on the front(Right width wheel) with a reasonable stagger is the best way to go. You notice the Vette/Viper have decreased their stagger and increased front width lately. These old muscle cars are nose heavy and they want to push. You'll find yourself continually looking for an increase in front grip while you own the car. You'll naturally have more lateral rear grip at your disposal which means you will be decreasing rear grip to get chassis balance. I'd say a smaller rear tire would net better side and forward bite due to a slightly more desirable spring rate/shock setting.

Don't get me wrong, I think you can get the car to handle nicely.

Couldn't agree more.

[Ron Sutton]

Now the dilemma......I have chosen a big ass 345 to handle the rear load but what size up front. IMO smart money goes with the widest I can get that will compliment the rears and I dont believe 285's are going to do it. Reason being I used to run 275's all around and had my car neutral. When I mini-tubbed my car and installed 315's out back just for the cool factor the car began to push. I'm still working on getting my car neutral again.


This is what I see all the time. If you think about your previous car in contact patch comparisons with 315's with approximately 11.8" of tread on the rear ... and 275's with approximately 10.2" of tread on the front ... your rear tires had 15.6% more grip.

You had a balanced car ... and added 15.6% more grip to the rear. They only way to fix the handling balance ... without swapping tires ... is to adjust the suspension to reduce the rear grip by 15.6%.

That's a lot. I know firsthand, because I've done it ... and it takes BIG spring, sway bar & roll center changes to achieve.

[Vegas69]

Great stuff Ron. Thanks for the education.

[Ron Sutton]

Great stuff Ron. Thanks for the education.

No worries. I enjoy sharing when the topic is in my wheelhouse. I also enjoy learning about stuff that is not in my background.

Do you AutoX your car on a regular basis in Vegas? If so ... where?

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Guys,

I'm on the Forum today for a few more hours ... then I'll be gone for a week.


I'm meeting up with my friend Neil Porter at Sears Point where he's running 2 formula cars in SCCA racing. Then I'm camping with my girls the rest of the week.


I'll be back online late Thursday (7/11) or Friday morning (7/18).

[Matt@BOS]

Hey Ron, another question for you...

You mentioned that in Gaetano's case he might as well have just thrown 275 tires on the back of the car instead of the 315s because he would need to remove the 15.x percent more grip that the 315s added in order to get the car balanced again.

My question is, if you're working with more tire in the back versus the front, can you tune the rear to have more grip in the straights and less under steady state cornering?

When you discussed the pros and cons of high roll/low pitch versus high roll/low pitch, I was curious if you could run one setup on the front and the other on the rear. I feel like there is a reason you haven't mentioned doing this, but if you have the time, it would be cool if you could explain what would happen from running low roll/high pitch in the front and high roll/low pitch in the back.

Thanks for all the time you've spent sharing knowledge with us amateur hour club guys

Matt

[FETorino]

Great stuff Ron. Thanks for the education.


Yes I gotta agree with that.

Thanks Ron. This is a lot of good information that should lead to some further discussion.:thumbsup:

[carbuff]

Does this discussion mean that I'm gonna stop hearing about putting 335's on the back of my car?! :knokwood:

[FETorino]

Does this discussion mean that I'm gonna stop hearing about putting 335's on the back of my car?! :knokwood:

No:lol: You chose smaller out of fear not out of engineering concerns. That doesn't count :lol:

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Ron, another question for you...

You mentioned that in Gaetano's case he might as well have just thrown 275 tires on the back of the car instead of the 315s because he would need to remove the 15.x percent more grip that the 315s added in order to get the car balanced again.

My question is, if you're working with more tire in the back versus the front, can you tune the rear to have more grip in the straights and less under steady state cornering?

When you discussed the pros and cons of high roll/low pitch versus high roll/low pitch, I was curious if you could run one setup on the front and the other on the rear. I feel like there is a reason you haven't mentioned doing this, but if you have the time, it would be cool if you could explain what would happen from running low roll/high pitch in the front and high roll/low pitch in the back.

Thanks for all the time you've spent sharing knowledge with us amateur hour club guys

Matt

Hey Matt, I enjoy helping.

I'm outta here for a week, so I'll discuss that when I get back.

Everyone take care.

[Flash68]

Ron, thank you getting this thread out of the toilet and back into some really good discussion. :D I might need to "rent" you to come fix my disaster of a build thread....

As others have said, I enjoy and appreciate the wealth of info you're sharing. :thumbsup:

[Wissing72]

Wow Rob, I go away for a couple of weeks and the car has come together quite a lot! Looks good.
The tire/wheel info was way too much for this early in the morning but glad it is there to re-read. Thanks.

[FETorino]

Ron, thank you getting this thread out of the toilet and back into some really good discussion. :D I might need to "rent" you to come fix my disaster of a build thread....

As others have said, I enjoy and appreciate the wealth of info you're sharing. :thumbsup:

Flash I think you've done more to accomplish that than anyone by staying off the thread recently.:lmao:

Wow Rob, I go away for a couple of weeks and the car has come together quite a lot! Looks good.
The tire/wheel info was way too much for this early in the morning but glad it is there to re-read. Thanks.

Thanks I'm making progress and have some more things in the works that I'll be posting on in a few weeks.


On track width (center of tread to center of tread for any readers not familiar) … the optimum F/R TW split falls somewhere in the window of -1” to +1” depending on the cars weight distribution & suspension travel strategy. When a car has significantly more front weight distribution … say 53-56% … the front naturally wants to roll more than the rear. Having the front track width a little wider helps balance the car’s roll angle. I don’t like to have the front TW more than 1” wider than the rear, on the roll angle balance goes the other direction & the car wants to roll over on the outside rear tire too much.

With the much wider rear tires moving the rear TW "in" ... I suspect your rear track width is substantially narrower than your front & will contribute to things that cause a push condition. You should measure both front & rear track widths & post the info. If the rear is more than 1” narrower than the front … and if you care about this … then you would want to narrow the FTW, or widen the RTW or a balance of both.

In case this is new to anyone, Wider front TW than rear = tightens the car … too much makes it push. Wider rear TW than front = frees the car … too much makes it loose. If the car has more rear weight, I may, or may not, run the rear wider than the front. It does depend on if the suspension travel strategy is “high roll/low pitch” or “low roll/high pitch”.


Ron flew the coop for a week so until he gets back I'm taking a break from the tire/handling discussion. I have some more info on track width and such to throw out there for discussion.:sieg:

I did take track width into consideration when choosing the tire wheel package. My front comes in at 55.25" and the rear at 58" Ron was surprised by this since it is intuitive to think tubbing in the rear would push the track width in significantly. I had to remind him what you all know. My car has a big but. :lmao: So more tire to the inside of the fender would have widened the gap in front to rear track. Currently I have 1.75" more TW in the rear which should help free the back end up some even with the 345s.

I don't think I ever see anyone post about it. What is the typical TW measurement on a first gen Camaro?

[intocarss]

HEY FT... Is it done yet???:peepwall: Am I drunk, what's with the pink elephant????

Maybe we all should stay out of BMF's thread so he can finish :popcorn2:

Thanks for the write up Mr Ron :thumbsup:

[FETorino]

HEY FT... Is it done yet???:peepwall:

:snapout: You know better than to ask that question. :snapout:


Am I drunk, what's with the pink elephant????

I don't know what you are talking about.:lostmarbles:

Maybe we all should stay out of BMF's thread so he can finish :popcorn2:

Doesn't matter. He can multi task. He is quite capable of doing nothing on the car and posting simultaneously.:rolleyes:

Thanks for the write up Mr Ron :thumbsup:
Can't wait till he gets back and the fun continues.:topic:

:cheers:

[Flash68]

Flash I think you've done more to accomplish that than anyone by staying off the thread recently.:lmao:






That's giving me an awful lot of credit. :thankyou:







I don't think I ever see anyone post about it. What is the typical TW measurement on a first gen Camaro?

Good question ... I would guess pretty close to yours.

Does this discussion mean that I'm gonna stop hearing about putting 335's on the back of my car?! :knokwood:

Only if you put 315's on the front. :action-smiley-027:

[tubbed69]

wheels are very nice Rob

[DaleTx]

I did take track width into consideration when choosing the tire wheel package. My front comes in at 55.25" and the rear at 56" Ron was surprised by this since it is intuitive to think tubbing in the rear would push the track width in significantly.

I don't think I ever see anyone post about it. What is the typical TW measurement on a first gen Camaro?

Rob... I just checked the track width on my first gen Camaro and it measures 60-7/8" in the front, and 60-1/8' in the rear. The overall width of my tires are 10.35" in front and 10.91"in rear. I measured the track width from the center of the tread to center of tread.

This is great info here on wheel and tire sizing.

:lateral:

[FETorino]

wheels are very nice Rob

Thanks a bunch. I am really happy with them. :D

Rob... I just checked the track width on my first gen Camaro and it measures 60-7/8" in the front, and 60-1/8' in the rear. The overall width of my tires are 10.35" in front and 10.91"in rear. I measured the track width from the center of the tread to center of tread.

This is great info here on wheel and tire sizing.

:lateral:

Dale that's interesting. So your outside to outside total tire width is about 71" front and rear?

[DaleTx]

Thanks a bunch. I am really happy with them. :D



Dale that's interesting. So your outside to outside total tire width is about 71" front and rear?

Yes, that's exactly right... I just went out and measured from outside of tire to outside of tire, front and rear and they both measured 71"


rear overall width

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/aaa84e99-345a-42da-9cf4-7acfcd035d3f_zpsc16a4da6.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/aaa84e99-345a-42da-9cf4-7acfcd035d3f_zpsc16a4da6.jpg.html)


front overall width

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s364/daltol/5caa2fc2-ba86-47b7-8fb3-45d7207a1a2c_zpsb99462fa.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/daltol/media/5caa2fc2-ba86-47b7-8fb3-45d7207a1a2c_zpsb99462fa.jpg.html)

A little fuzzy... but at least I got the thumb out of the way :)

[Flash68]

My front comes in at 55.25" and the rear at 56"

Rob... I just checked the track width on my first gen Camaro and it measures 60-7/8" in the front, and 60-1/8' in the rear.

Robster -- so what you're saying is.... not only does the Torino have a big BUTT.... it also is bowlegged?!

:ohsnap:

[67goatman455]

Whew! i never thought i would see so many informative posts in a row in this thread!

I have so many noob questions, that i'm pretty lost but ill sit back and keep reading. Hopefully ill catch on. looks like i need to change my mind set, I too planned on throwing the biggest freaking tire on the back i could, and make do with what i could up front. I will be quite disappointed on the track if i do that, i see!

[SBDave]

This discussion, those wheels, I like all of what's going on here!
...and I have nothing to contribute.
Carry on!

[FETorino]

Wow Rob, I go away for a couple of weeks and the car has come together quite a lot! Looks good.
The tire/wheel info was way too much for this early in the morning but glad it is there to re-read. Thanks.

Well don't stay away so long next time.

Rob... I just checked the track width on my first gen Camaro and it measures 60-7/8" in the front, and 60-1/8' in the rear. The overall width of my tires are 10.35" in front and 10.91"in rear. I measured the track width from the center of the tread to center of tread.

This is great info here on wheel and tire sizing.

:lateral:

Dale I was looking back at some older notes of mine and saw my track widths were different than I posted. I recalculated them and it seems my old notes were right with a 58" rear track.

Whew! i never thought i would see so many informative posts in a row in this thread!

Yea Dave has been staying away:lmao:

I have so many noob questions, that i'm pretty lost but ill sit back and keep reading. Hopefully ill catch on. looks like i need to change my mind set, I too planned on throwing the biggest freaking tire on the back i could, and make do with what i could up front. I will be quite disappointed on the track if i do that, i see!

Actually I'd say it's more like trying to plug the biggest tire I can on each end. It still makes me laugh calling a 285 a small tire.:rolleyes:

This discussion, those wheels, I like all of what's going on here!
...and I have nothing to contribute.
Carry on!
wheels are very nice Rob


I'm kinda partial to the wheels. Light, strong and the correct color.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2025_zpsa03f4d23.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2025_zpsa03f4d23.jpg.html)

[Cole]

I think they are going to look right @ home.. Nice choice!

[Flash68]

That wheel is sick.... would make even a Torino look pretty good. :confused59:

:rockin:

[intocarss]

That wheel is sick.... would make even a Torino look pretty good. :confused59:

:rockin:

:trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302:

[FETorino]

That wheel is sick.... would make even a Torino look pretty good. :confused59:

:rockin:

If you did something similar on BMF it wouldn't be a bad thing.:thumbsup:

[intocarss]

If you did something similar on BMF it wouldn't be a bad thing.:thumbsup::hello:

[Flash68]

If you did something similar on BMF it wouldn't be a bad thing.:thumbsup:

Similar... but different. :wacko:

:hello:

Now there's the Jer we all know and love. :bigun2:

[Ron Sutton]

Hi Guys,

I'm back. I'll try to catch up.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Todd, I love racing in Vegas.

Do you AutoX your car on a regular basis in Vegas? If so ... where?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Track Junky]

Hi Guys,

I'm back. I'll try to catch up.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Todd, I love racing in Vegas.

Do you AutoX your car on a regular basis in Vegas? If so ... where?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Glad to hear your back Ron. :thumbsup:

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Ron, another question for you...

You mentioned that in Gaetano's case he might as well have just thrown 275 tires on the back of the car instead of the 315s because he would need to remove the 15.x percent more grip that the 315s added in order to get the car balanced again.

My question is, if you're working with more tire in the back versus the front, can you tune the rear to have more grip in the straights and less under steady state cornering?

Good question. Tough answer.

First, What is this steady state cornering you speak of? I'm kidding, but only a little. The car is almost always in transition. Even in the "roll through zone" ... after the driver is off the brakes & has not picked up the throttle yet ... the car is decelerating (coast down) so the speed is changing ... "settling" in pitch (nose wanting to come up & rear down) ... and increasing in roll angle a small amount more. On long sweeping corners the car might be in the "same state" for a second. But on most road courses, short to medium ovals & AutoX, the car is constantly "transitioning."

When I'm working with a race driver, we break each corner down to three sections ... and if that is not enough detail, we'll break it down to all 5 or 6 driving actions. The three sections are Entry (braking & turn-in), Middle (roll through zone, coasting, no brake or throttle) & Exit (throttle roll on & steering unwind).

If the car is doing something difficult to sort out, the driver & I will break it down to what happens at each step: Brake application, steering input into the corner, steering set, brake release, roll/coast, a sharp steering "cut down" if there is one, steering unwind & throttle roll on.

You can make the larger rear tired car turn great on entry & have awesome grip on exit. The middle is always the challenge. The bigger rear tires make it hard to roll the center at optimum speed without pushing. And the ironic part is, the mid corner push caused by the larger rear tires ... CAUSES the car to "snap loose" on corner exit ... and be loose on exit.

If you can get a handling car to turn well in the middle, without pushing, it won't "snap loose" on exit ... and if tuned right ... will have more grip on exit, than if we were fighting a tight or push condition in the middle from larger rear tires.

Just so everyone is clear:
A. There are lots of suspension tuning methods to improve rear tire grip on corner exit. Having bigger rear tires is just one.

B. I'm not saying you can't run bigger rear tires and have a good handling car, but when they difference gets significant, you designed in handling problems for yourself.

C. There are situations where we want bigger tires in the rear, than the front, but it is when the car's weight balance is rear heavy.

D. Otherwise, having the same size tires front & rear, makes it easiest to create a well balanced handling car, that will be fastest on track.



Matt

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Ron, another question for you...

When you discussed the pros and cons of high roll/low pitch versus high roll/low pitch, I was curious if you could run one setup on the front and the other on the rear. I feel like there is a reason you haven't mentioned doing this, but if you have the time, it would be cool if you could explain what would happen from running low roll/high pitch in the front and high roll/low pitch in the back.

Thanks for all the time you've spent sharing knowledge with us amateur hour club guys

Matt


Hey Matt,

It works .... but not the best. But not for a lack of trying, as I have seen literally hundreds of racers "in transition" from old school set-ups to the new high travel set-ups try to keep their setups in the rear.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conventional:
• Stiff front springs
• Small, soft sway bars
• More Roll
• Less Pitch

Sample Set-up for a 3000# car:
Front Springs: 550-700#
Front ARB: 100-200#
Rear Springs: 150-200#
Rear ARB: 50-100# or … No ARB & 50-100# stiffer rear springs … or higher rear Roll Center

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

High Travel:
• Soft front springs
• Big, stiff sway bar in front
• Known as SS/BB … soft spring/big bar … if no bump stop or coil bind is utilized.
• Same concept used in conjunction with travel stops: Bump Stops or Coil Bind
• Less Roll
• More Pitch

Sample Set-up for a 3000# car:
Front Springs: 300-400# (200-350# with bump rubbers or coil bind)
Front ARB: 600-1500+# (from short tracks to big tracks)
Rear Springs: 300-500#
Rear ARB: 100-200# … or No ARB & 100-200# stiffer rear springs … or higher rear Roll Center

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem if you allow the rear to roll too much is ... the car rolls over unevenly .... onto the outside rear tire ... and off the inside front tire ... reducing the tire contact patch on the ground in the front by half ... causing the car to push.

One key to the "less roll" set-up ... is less roll ... running flatter ... in the rear helps keeps the inside front tire planted.

Make sense?

[Ron Sutton]

Ron flew the coop for a week so until he gets back I'm taking a break from the tire/handling discussion. I have some more info on track width and such to throw out there for discussion.:sieg:

I did take track width into consideration when choosing the tire wheel package. My front comes in at 55.25" and the rear at 58" Ron was surprised by this since it is intuitive to think tubbing in the rear would push the track width in significantly. I had to remind him what you all know. My car has a big butt. :lmao: So more tire to the inside of the fender would have widened the gap in front to rear track. Currently I have 1.75" more TW in the rear which should help free the back end up some even with the 345s.


Rob,

I did incorrectly assume your wider tires in the rear would have narrowed the rear TW. Thanks for clarifying your car is different. You're on the right track that the wider rear TW will free/loosen up the car..

If your measurements are right ... front TW 55.25" & rear at 58" ... the math ... 1.75" more TW in the rear ... doesn't jive. That would be 2.75" more TW in the rear.

Would you please confirm the numbers, so we're talking on the same page ?

Thanks !

[Ron Sutton]

Whew! i never thought i would see so many informative posts in a row in this thread!

I have so many noob questions, that i'm pretty lost but ill sit back and keep reading. Hopefully ill catch on. looks like i need to change my mind set, I too planned on throwing the biggest freaking tire on the back i could, and make do with what i could up front. I will be quite disappointed on the track if i do that, i see!

Yes, Scott, you would be constantly fighting a push condition. And that's no fun.

[Ron Sutton]

OMG Rob,

Those wheels are really nice looking. Light too. :D

[intocarss]

OMG Rob,

Those wheels are really nice looking. Light too. :DIt's about time you got back!!!!:warning: Hope you had a good trip

[Ron Sutton]

It's about time you got back!!!!:warning: Hope you had a good trip

We did. We had fun hanging with my Formula car buddy Neil Porter as he ran 4 cars at Sears Point.

Then my girls & I went camping for 5 days. Fun stuff.

Thanks for the race video. Good stuff.

[FETorino]

OMG Rob,

Those wheels are really nice looking. Light too. :D

Yes way light for wheels that size.

Rob,

I did incorrectly assume your wider tires in the rear would have narrowed the rear TW. Thanks for clarifying your car is different. You're on the right track that the wider rear TW will free/loosen up the car..

If your measurements are right ... front TW 55.25" & rear at 58" ... the math ... 1.75" more TW in the rear ... doesn't jive. That would be 2.75" more TW in the rear.

Would you please confirm the numbers, so we're talking on the same page ?

Thanks !


Welcome back Glad to hear the trip was good.

And I incorrectly stated the difference in TW was 1.75" but it is 2.75" I didn't measure these but calculated them based on the hub to hub distance and the wheel offsets.

The Panhard bar is 8" off the ground and level.

[Ron Sutton]

And I incorrectly stated the difference in TW was 1.75" but it is 2.75" I didn't measure these but calculated them based on the hub to hub distance and the wheel offsets.

The Panhard bar is 8" off the ground and level.

Hi Rob,

I don't recall working on a car with the rear trackwidth that much wider than the front. But, before I go off on one of my long explanations ... :) ... I had better get clear on what you want to discuss.

Do you want to talk about:
a. What the optimum set-up would be ... including tire size ... if their were no self imposed limits?
b. Tuning options to help balance handling with 21% more tire in the rear?
c. Age of the blonde in my wheel photo?
d. Something else?

[Ron in SoCal]

Hi Rob,

I don't recall working on a car with the rear trackwidth that much wider than the front. But, before I go off on one of my long explanations ... :) ... I had better get get clear on what you want to discuss.

Do you want to talk about:
a. What the optimum set-up would be ... including tire size ... if their were no self imposed limits?
b. Tuning options to help balance handling with 21% more tire in the rear?
c. Age of the blonde in my wheel photo?
d. Something else?



Welcome back Ron! I vote 'C' plus phone number, website and personal preferences....unless you're related lol.

[Flash68]

Ron,

I think I speak for many when I say we're all glad you're back to create a diversion from the incessant trash talking. :D

And since we have the famous Ron in Socal and the infamous Rob in Socal, would you please do us a favor and add to your sig "Ron in Norcal"?

That is all, thanks. :lol:

[FETorino]

Hi Rob,

I don't recall working on a car with the rear trackwidth that much wider than the front. But, before I go off on one of my long explanations ... :) ... I had better get get clear on what you want to discuss.

Do you want to talk about:
a. What the optimum set-up would be ... including tire size ... if their were no self imposed limits?
b. Tuning options to help balance handling with 21% more tire in the rear?
c. Age of the blonde in my wheel photo?
d. Something else?



No reason to avoid

a. ?

Plenty of people would want to hear that.

For sure let's go with the hard one.

b. ?

[Ron Sutton]

Welcome back Ron! I vote 'C' plus phone number, website and personal preferences....unless you're related lol.

You're funny Ron.

She's a slightly famous model friend we have used for promos for several years. The answers are: 25, BR-549, no website ...but she should, likes & has a Dodge 4x4 truck that she works on herself.

[Ron Sutton]

No reason to avoid

a. ?

Plenty of people would want to hear that.

For sure let's go with the hard one.

b. ?

Okie Dokie ...

* Rob corrected the track difference to 2.10"

a. With the 2.10" wider rear track width ... assuming it places the tires out near the fenders already ... if you were to put the same size tires on the car ... you would need to move the front tires outward. I'm assuming this would take custom fender work or flares, which is fine for this conversation, but not what you want to do. Ultimately, you would want the track width to be the same or a little wider in the front ... with same size tires.

b. With the 2.10" wider rear track width ... assuming it places the tires out near the fenders already & where you want them ... and the front tires are 285's & the rear's 345's ... we need to balance a car with 21% more tire in the rear.

We need to MAXIMIZE the front tire grip ... and reduce the rear tire grip on corner entry & Middle. Entry will be easy. Middle is always the toughest. I'll answer this in a few posts.

[FETorino]

Okie Dokie ...

* Rob corrected the track difference to 2.10"

a. With the 2.0" wider rear track width ... assuming it places the tires out near the fenders already ... if you were to put the same size tires on the car ... you would need to move the front tires outward. I'm assuming this would take custom fender work or flares, which is fine for this conversation, but not what you want to do. Ultimately, you would want the track width to be the same or a little wider in the front ... with same size tires.

b. With the 2.0" wider rear track width ... assuming it places the tires out near the fenders already & where you want them ... and the front tires are 285's & the rear's 345's ... we need to balance a car with 21% more tire in the rear.

We need to MAXIMIZE the front tire grip ... and reduce the rear tire grip on corner entry & Middle. Entry will be easy. Middle is always the toughest. I'll answer this in a few posts.

Ron Sorry about the bad numbers. I think a few to many long days at work:underchair: . I wanted to catch you on the PM before you used my bad number. We are basically at a 2" difference.

Maybe it's the Elephant.:lmao:

[Ron Sutton]

Rob,

I tell most everyone, "we can go no faster through the corner than the front end has grip" ... and since we have 285's on the front of a big car ... we need to optimize them to their fullest potential, within the limitations you have put on the car yourself: no fender mods, 2" of front wheel lip, etc.

Here are the keys:

1. Your KPI/Caster Split should favor the caster by 0.5 to 0.75 degrees. Your C6 spindles have 9.15 degrees of KPI. Which would mean you want 9.65 to 10 degrees of static caster. That "seems like" a lot of caster, but just what the doctor ordered. GM runs this spindle at 7.7-8.3 degrees of caster in the stock Z51 & all the fast Corvette track guys run 10.0-10.5 degrees of caster.

2. You will want the A-arms installed to achieve "anti-dive." That means the LCA angles down in front & the UCA angles up in front. This will compliment the suspension set-up I'm going to recommend. And it will provide you with dynamic "caster gain" as the suspension compresses. You need about 0.5 degrees of caster gain. If you end up with more ... which would be good ... you need to reduce your static caster by the amount above 0.5 degrees.

3. How much camber gain you can end up with will also affect your roll center. Since your priorities are road course track days, Silver State high speed runs & Optima type "all around" performance events, you'll want a slightly higher front RC than you would for AutoX. I'd say 4" at ride height & 1.25"-1.5" in dive. That is easy to get by increasing the UCA angle (taller spindle or ball joint) ... which will also increase camber gain.

4. If you end up with 2.0 degrees of camber gain, I'd suggest a "starting point" of .75 degrees of static camber, for a total of 2.75 degrees of camber in dive (suspension compressed). If you end up with less camber gain ... add more static camber ... and keep the 2.75 degrees total. Other tuners may tell you need way more camber, but they're not used to working with a KPI/Caster Split favoring the caster.

5. Run .060" total toe-out. Yes ... out. Then play with the Ackerman & bump steer ... so you end up with .140"-.150" toe out ... in dive ... with the wheels turned 20 degrees.

6. You need to transfer a high amount of weight off the rear tires & onto the front tires for optimum cornering.

7. You need to achieve & maintain a low roll angle to optimize the front tire contact patches.

8. Therefore the optimum suspension set-up for your ride would be a high travel front end ... to achieve high pitch change & low roll angle ... also known as soft spring big bar.

I'll hop back on here tomorrow & outline the suspension set-up to achieve this ... along with tuning tools to balance the car at the track.

[Ron Sutton]

I corrected post #1212 after getting a PM from Rob with his spindle info.

I did not correct earlier posts to reflect his correct track width difference of 2" wider in the rear, but we'll use that number from here on out.

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Rob,

I've calculated the wheel spring rate we need, but to tell you what spring rates to get, I'll need "True Spring Motion Ratios" that include spring angle from your chassis builder ... so get front & rear ... and post them.

We may be able to work with your existing rear sway bar, if the effective rate is high enough. Typically AME's have 3 positions. Get the effective rate in all 3 positions & post.

Might as well get & post the effective rates for the front sway bar too, but I doubt it will be high enough for the SS/BB set-up I'm going to recommend.

[Ron Sutton]

Rob,

What I have outlined below is a soft spring/big bar … high travel, low roll suspension setup that you & I discussed … to optimize the handling of your long wheelbase car with tires 21% larger in the rear.

It is just a baseline to start from ... and it assumes a lot of things for us to discuss & get clear on. Most of these assumptions can be tuned around, if my assumption is wrong. Some can not.

Assumptions:
3500# car
116" Wheelbase
51.5% front weight
19” CG height
2.5”-3” front shock travel in dive
Front track width 56” & rear 58” / 2” wider in rear
285 front tires & 345 rear tires / Same compound front & rear

Readers … do not run with this set-up for your car. That would be like taking someone else’s medicine when you have no idea what health issues they have. I can not say this strongly enough. This is not a universal set-up or even a universal concept. I have outlined this for Rob’s long wheelbase Torino with tires 21% larger in the rear & a 2” wider rear track width.

Baseline Starting Point to Tune From:

Springs & ARB's:
Front Wheel Rate: 275#
Front Spring Motion Ratio: _________?
Front Spring Rate: _________?
Front ARB Effective Rate: 1050#
Rear Wheel Rate: 350#
Rear Spring Motion Ratio: _________?
Rear Spring Rate: _________?
Rear ARB Effective Rate: 400#

ARB (Anti Roll Bar) Arms:
Front: Short, strong (4130 chromoly)
Rear: Steel, no aluminum

Front Roll Center: 4" at ride height & 1.25"-1.5" in dive
Rear Roll Center: 11” with level Panhard Bar at ride height

4-link Specs:
Lower Bars: 0.0 degrees / Level at ride height
Upper Bars: 9-10 degrees down in front
Instant Center: Same height as lower bars … 50-60” ahead of rear axle CL
Pinion angle: 2-3 degrees negative from the driveshaft*

Front Shocks:
I’m not willing to share my proprietary valving info on a Forum. In general, you will need moderate compression valving in the front, to slow the rate of compression on braking & corner entry & substantial rebound valving to hold the front end down through the corner.

Rear Shocks:
Again, I’m not willing to share my proprietary valving info on a Forum. In general, you will need moderate compression valving in the rear, to slow the rate of compression on & corner entry & moderate rebound valving to keep the rear tires planted on corner exit.

Adjustable Shocks:
Triple adjustable shocks ... low-speed rebound, hi-speed rebound & hi-speed compression ... are a key to dialing in a bad ass race car on track day ... and dialing it back to a drivable Pro Touring car at the end of the day. There are poor shocks, good shocks & great shocks available. I choose not to talk brands on a forum.

Wheel width:
Your 285’s need to be on wheels 1” wider than the tread width & put the rear tires on wheels with the same width at the tread width. You want the front tires “stable” and you want the rear tires to “move around” a little.

Tire pressures:
Optimized for full contact patch & even temps.

Rob, as with all cars that get pushed to their limits ... when you find the limits, you WILL NEED TO TUNE on this set-up. I’ve got you close … except for shock valving … which we’ll need to discuss.

In my next post, I’ll outline some tuning strategies after you run it on a road course. And if you want, we can discuss some changes for better AutoX performance.

[FETorino]

Hey Rob,

I've calculated the wheel spring rate we need, but to tell you what spring rates to get, I'll need "True Spring Motion Ratios" that include spring angle from your chassis builder ... so get front & rear ... and post them.

We may be able to work with your existing rear sway bar, if the effective rate is high enough. Typically AME's have 3 positions. Get the effective rate in all 3 positions & post.

Might as well get & post the effective rates for the front sway bar too, but I doubt it will be high enough for the SS/BB set-up I'm going to recommend.

Hey Ron. I just got home from running errands and goofing around at a buddys house. I'll take some measurements tomorrow and get some specs.:headscratch:

I went down to Speedway Engineering today to grab the proper drive plates, inner seals and dust caps.:D

I continue to be impressed with the Machine work done by Travis and crew at Formula 43. The drive hubs in the last pic are being held in place by the perfect interference fit of the hub to the wheel center. Hub centric magic at its best:thankyou: Travis.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2035_zps50c59a40.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2035_zps50c59a40.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2046_zps64433c71.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2046_zps64433c71.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/IMG_2032_zps3e54d430.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/IMG_2032_zps3e54d430.jpg.html)

:cheers:

[intocarss]

Real technical advice, clear pictures of high $$$ race parts...... WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IN HERE?? :warning: :snapout: :wrongforum: :badidea: :bang:

[Rick D]

Man Rob your thread is just dripping with tech now, this is great!! It kinda drowns out all the BS :lol: although I'm sure once you slow down on the tech and progress it will be full steam ahead!!

[Ron in SoCal]

Fun little road trip yesterday. Rob and I stopped at Speedway and we're like two kids in a candy store. Their finished parts warehouse was just so cool. Snouts, drive plates, dust covers, housings, crowned axles you name it.

I couldn't help but pick up and admire at least one of everything and you can see above the quality of finished products. And the people there are just great too.

I think Rob bought an extra drive plate to be made into a hip hop/car guy necklace :lol:

Dust cover and fit looks killer Rob. :cheers:

[Ripped]

Wow, you are sure not cutting corners anywhere! I don't know how you sleep much at night, as all of this all comes together.

What is your projected completion date?

[Ron Sutton]

Rob,
And anyone reading along with us …

The following helps explain each suspension set-up or tuning item in more detail.

The “Soft Front Spring/Big Sway Bar - High Travel/Low Roll” set-up loads the front tires more on corner entry & braking … and therefore unloads the rear tires more … than “Conventional Stiff Front Spring/Small Sway Bar – Low Travel/High Roll” set-ups.

An additional benefit of the front end compressing more & is it acts like stored energy on exit … allowing more front end lift travel under throttle, for increased load & grip on the rear tires.

Utilizing this strategy for this application is based on the need to:
a. Assist this long 116" wheelbase car to turn better.
b. Overcome a 21% larger rear tire bias.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are the keys to this modern suspension strategy & a few other tuning suggestions, all designed to take a car that would otherwise push … due to the long WB & 21% bigger rear tires … into a good turning road course track car.

1. The KPI/Caster Split favoring the caster … combined with a small amount of caster gain in dive … corrects the angle of both inside & outside wheels … to achieve a full contact patch with both front tires for optimum cornering ability … without running excessive static camber.

2. The “anti-dive” built into the A-arms helps prevent the soft front suspension from compressing too fast under braking. Plus provides the desired caster gain.

3. Achieving camber gain with the A-arm/spindle/ball joint geometry means we don’t need as much static camber. You want some static camber, as it loads the outside front tire instantly on turn-in … improving responsiveness. Just don’t get greedy, and run more camber & less caster. Caster helps both tires achieve the correct tire contact patch… and is progressive. Camber helps the outside tire angle & hurts the inside tire angle & is always doing it. I see some AutoX guys with 5-6 degrees of camber and during corners the inside front tire is using half the contact patch or less.

4. You want a little toe-out. Like static camber, static toe-out improves initial turn in responsiveness.

5. Get the rest of the “dynamic toe out” with Ackerman or bump steer. In race cars, it almost doesn’t matter which we use, because the suspension is always compressed in the corner when we’re turning. Ackerman is the preferred method in a PT car, so you get the benefit on the street too, when the suspension is not compressed. Regardless, you need the inside front tire turning at a tighter radius than the outside tire for optimum front tire grip. Otherwise, you’re dragging the inside tire, instead of the inside tire helping the car to turn.

6. The softer front springs allow the front end to travel farther on corner entry & braking. This varies by application, but the goal is 2”+ instead of ¾”-1” of a conventional set-up. This loads the front tires more, giving them more grip & providing better turning ability.

7. The huge front ARB, plus stiffer rear springs & stiffer than most rear ARB … all work together to keep the car at a low roll angle. This keeps the inside front tire engaged more than a high roll set-up. It also unloads the rear tires more evenly.

8. The stiffer, stronger (and shorter if possible) ARB Arms … load the tires quicker … and make the car more responsive. You will need this in a big, wide, 116” wb car.

9. The front roll center at 1.25"-1.5" “in dive” seems low, but is actually a little high … which is best for loading the front tires on road courses. If you were AutoXing, we would run it around 0” in dive.

10. The rear panhard bar at 11” is high … only to free up the load & grip on the 345 rear tires … and to help the suspension keep the inside front tire loaded during cornering. This will be one of the first things you should tune on at the road course track. If the car is loose, you will lower it. If yours is not infinitely tunable … correct this. Having a non-adjustable panhard bar in a handling car is ridiculous.

11. The 4-link specs I provided will provide more traction on exit and frankly assist with weight transfer from the rear tires to front tires on corner entry. This needs to be tuned to find the happy balance. If you increase the downward angle of the top link, you will add “initial” grip to the rear tires on corner exit as you pick up the throttle … AND it will transfer more weight from the rear end to the front end, as the rear lifts under braking. If you go too far … in search of exit grip … you will make the car loose on entry.

12. The lower bars of the 4-link (3-links too) control “rear steer” or “roll steer”. If you run the bars level at ride height … or 0.0 degrees … as the car rolls over in a corner … both bars pull the rear end forward the same amount, so the rear end stays “true” to the chassis. If you raise the front of the bars (at the chassis mount) or lower the rear (at the rear end housing) you get rear steer … meaning the outside tire is pushed back & the inside tire is pulled forward. This helps steer the car from the rear a little like the fork lift concept.

More angle is more rear steer. Going down in the front or up in the rear, acts in the opposite way, pushing the outside tire forward & the inside tire is pushed back, which does the opposite, causing the car to “tighten” as it is being steering to the outside of the corner. Rear steer affects the exit too, because the car is still rolled over to a degree. So I use rear steer as a tuning tool to free up the car when it is tight or pushy mid-corner & exit.

13. Again, I’m not willing to share my proprietary valving info on a Forum, but you need front shocks valved to have the front end compress at a nice, controlled, smooth rate … and keep the front end down through the middle of the corner, after you have lifted off the brakes … and release & let the front lift as you roll on the throttle.

14. Having front wheels wider than the tread width will improve both initial turn-in responsiveness & front tire grip. Having the rear wheels equal to the tread width will help free up the car on entry & middle & help grip up the car on exit.

Make sense? Got questions?
Everyone feel free to chime in if you have relevant conversation.

...

[Ron Sutton]

Fun little road trip yesterday. Rob and I stopped at Speedway and we're like two kids in a candy store. Their finished parts warehouse was just so cool. Snouts, drive plates, dust covers, housings, crowned axles you name it.

I couldn't help but pick up and admire at least one of everything and you can see above the quality of finished products. And the people there are just great too.

Kenny & Joanne are great people with great product. We run a ton of their stuff. Love 'em.

[Wissing72]

Real technical advice, clear pictures of high $$$ race parts...... WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IN HERE?? :warning: :snapout: :wrongforum: :badidea: :bang:
:lol: :lol: :lol:


Wow Rob, there is sooo much going on here! It is great to see this big girl coming together. It is also great that Ron is passing along his info for us to read. I keep having to go back over it to absorb it. :thankyou:
I have a feeling when the car is ready you will be :king:

[FETorino]

Wow, you are sure not cutting corners anywhere! I don't know how you sleep much at night, as all of this all comes together.

What is your projected completion date?

And then the fight broke out:warning: If I put it in print it will come back to haunt me. It will hit the road and track in shakedown mode. No new paint no finished interior just bare bones first to sort some things out. I will say that will happen within six months.:wacko:

Kenny & Joanne are great people with great product. We run a ton of their stuff. Love 'em.
Yes they are a pleasure to deal with. No need to go anywhere else if you are looking for real, usable, durable and beautifully made parts.
:lol: :lol: :lol:


Wow Rob, there is sooo much going on here! It is great to see this big girl coming together. It is also great that Ron is passing along his info for us to read. I keep having to go back over it to absorb it. :thankyou:
I have a feeling when the car is ready you will be :king:

I have a car I wanted to build and knew in building it I had to overcome some obstacles. The biggest is my desire for the car to still be a Torino and not some hacked up rendition of one. Nobody take that wrong. Even the pedigreed race Torino dale posted is hacked up. Look at the wheel wells they just cut a big opening to clear the big wide tire for the front. A car can look very cool hacked if hacked properly that just wasn't my goal for this car. So the technical discussion of how to fit 10lbs of suspension in a 5lbs box is a great one that I am really enjoying, and learning, from.

Rob,
And anyone reading along with us …

The following helps explain each suspension set-up or tuning item in more detail.

The “Soft Front Spring/Big Sway Bar - High Travel/Low Roll” set-up loads the front tires more on corner entry & braking … and therefore unloads the rear tires more … than “Conventional Stiff Front Spring/Small Sway Bar – Low Travel/High Roll” set-ups.

An additional benefit of the front end compressing more & is it acts like stored energy on exit … allowing more front end lift travel under throttle, for increased load & grip on the rear tires.

Utilizing this strategy for this application is based on the need to:
a. Assist this long 116" wheelbase car to turn better.
b. Overcome a 21% larger rear tire bias.


14. Having front wheels wider than the tread width will improve both initial turn-in responsiveness & front tire grip. Having the rear wheels equal to the tread width will help free up the car on entry & middle & help grip up the car on exit.

Make sense? Got questions?
Everyone feel free to chime in if you have relevant conversation.

...

Ron I am digesting. I sent you some more info and some more thoughts.

Your point on rim width was one I was getting at when this stared. I felt first I needed to determine the widest wheel I could fit on the front and then size the tire. I came up with the 18x10.5" wheel within my body, frame, suspension limitations. My feeling was the 285 35 18 on that wheel was a better fit than a 295 or 305 because of the slight stretch. I believe I was thinking along the lines you are stating. Correct me if I'm wrong.


The stretched tire would actually have as big or larger effective contact patch due to teh treads flatter profile at the same pressure.
The stretched tire would allow me to run more tire pressure allowing for more laod capacity while still maintaing the contact patch over a larger tire on teh same width wheel.
The stretched tire would stiffen the sidewall (screwing up my ride) but improving the tires turn in and holding power.


To maintain my aesthetic goal of no flares the 10.5" wheel was my max. I can run a larger tire on that wheel but my feeling was the one I chose was the best fit for my car.:wacko:

[Ron Sutton]

Rob & I calculated the motion ratios for the coil overs, so here are the final spring & ARB numbers ...

Springs & ARB's:
Front Spring Rate: 470# *
Front ARB Effective Rate: 1050#
Rear Spring Rate: 318# **
Rear ARB Effective Rate: 400#

*I would err on the stiffer side & go with 500# front springs ... and if during testing you are not getting the car to travel the front end enough ... and the car is tight or pushy in the middle ... then you can step down in front spring rate to 475# or 450#. This stiffer front spring will also give you a bit more confidence on corner entry until you get used to the high travel.

** I would err on the slightly stiffer side & go with 325# rear springs ... and if during testing the car turns well but needs more grip on exit ... you can step down in front spring rate to 300# or 275#.

[Ron Sutton]

Ron I am digesting. I sent you some more info and some more thoughts.

Your point on rim width was one I was getting at when this stared. I felt first I needed to determine the widest wheel I could fit on the front and then size the tire. I came up with the 18x10.5" wheel within my body, frame, suspension limitations. My feeling was the 285 35 18 on that wheel was a better fit than a 295 or 305 because of the slight stretch. I believe I was thinking along the lines you are stating. Correct me if I'm wrong.


The stretched tire would actually have as big or larger effective contact patch due to teh treads flatter profile at the same pressure.
The stretched tire would allow me to run more tire pressure allowing for more load capacity while still maintaing the contact patch over a larger tire on the same width wheel.
The stretched tire would stiffen the sidewall (screwing up my ride) but improving the tires turn in and holding power.


To maintain my aesthetic goal of no flares the 10.5" wheel was my max. I can run a larger tire on that wheel but my feeling was the one I chose was the best fit for my car.:wacko:

You are on track with all 3 points. The first point of the tread width being a little wider is a very minor gain. Points 2 & 3 are the bigger gains.

[65_LS1_T56]

Great stuff here, thanks for sharing Ron (in NorCal). Should this stuff be a sticky somewhere? :headscratch:

Torino's gonna be awesome when its out doing shakedowns in it's birthday suit... I also chose to build the car twice, once to get bugs out and tweak it, then tear down for cleanup and paint. After driving a couple of days, I'll stay that tearing it down will be a hard, hard thing to do.

Keep at it Rob!

[carbuff]

I'm loving reading this kind of detail! Thank you Rob and Ron for having most of this discussion 'publicly'. :)

I do have a question about the C6 spindle. I wasn't aware that the C6 ran that much caster. Can you explain a bit about the effect of running that much caster, or perhaps asked different, if you run less caster with the C6 spindle, what would the effect be?

My setup uses that spindle, but I've been told to target 6.5 - 7.0* of caster, and my recent alignment check shows 6.8* and 6.2* (I haven't had it aligned fully yet, but that is with camber dead on at the moment). While I realize my setup is different, it supposedly uses pretty close to C6 geometry points.

Keep the techie stuff coming! I'm learning from all of this too!

[FETorino]

Great stuff here, thanks for sharing Ron (in NorCal). Should this stuff be a sticky somewhere? :headscratch:

Torino's gonna be awesome when its out doing shakedowns in it's birthday suit... I also chose to build the car twice, once to get bugs out and tweak it, then tear down for cleanup and paint. After driving a couple of days, I'll stay that tearing it down will be a hard, hard thing to do.

Keep at it Rob!

Thanks. If I had your patina I wouldn't have paint on my agenda ever.:thumbsup:

I'm loving reading this kind of detail! Thank you Rob and Ron for having most of this discussion 'publicly'. :)

I do have a question about the C6 spindle. I wasn't aware that the C6 ran that much caster. Can you explain a bit about the effect of running that much caster, or perhaps asked different, if you run less caster with the C6 spindle, what would the effect be?

My setup uses that spindle, but I've been told to target 6.5 - 7.0* of caster, and my recent alignment check shows 6.8* and 6.2* (I haven't had it aligned fully yet, but that is with camber dead on at the moment). While I realize my setup is different, it supposedly uses pretty close to C6 geometry points.

Keep the techie stuff coming! I'm learning from all of this too!

I think the oddity of my build is a good thing. It lets me ask Ron his opinion out in the open without giving any edge to the other Torino builders.:lmao:

At the same time if you follow along Ron is giving a good overview of suspension and handling dynamics and things to consider when setting up a car.

I'm sure Ron will weigh in on your caster question and it's relationship to camber.

I'm still confused why there aren't more Torinos:headscratch: They have been going round corners for decades.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/DGurneyRiversideFront-vi_zpsf3c4d378.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/DGurneyRiversideFront-vi_zpsf3c4d378.jpg.html)http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/Foyt69Riverside-vi_zps311e5a88.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/Foyt69Riverside-vi_zps311e5a88.jpg.html)

[Sieg]

Rob... I just checked the track width on my first gen Camaro and it measures 60-7/8" in the front, and 60-1/8' in the rear. The overall width of my tires are 10.35" in front and 10.91"in rear. I measured the track width from the center of the tread to center of tread.

This is great info here on wheel and tire sizing.

:lateral:

Ron - Here's my track width data:

Measured outer sidewall to sidewall front and rear. Tire width is sidewall to sidewall. Nitto NT-05's IIRCC - Dale's running Nitto NT-01 255/40/17, 275/40/17.

Front: 69.0625" 245/40/18 tire on 8" rim measures 9.5"
Centerline Track = 59.5625"

Rear: 70.875" 275/40/18 tire on 9.5" rim measures 10.875"
Centerline Track = 60.00"

[Ron Sutton]

I didn't want a 1" or 1.5" outer lip on my front wheel. To me that give a Jiffy POP look of the center popping out of the hoop.

It also gave me a 2" outside lip with my backspace measurement to avoid Jiffypop.


I really need to expand my terminology. I’m behind.

Does “Jiffypop” mean the wheel center is crowned out … or flush with the outer edge of the wheel … or both? :headscratch:

...

[FETorino]

I really need to expand my terminology. I’m behind.

Does “Jiffypop” mean the wheel center is crowned out … or flush with the outer edge of the wheel … or both? :headscratch:

...

:lol: Don't worry about learning a one off term from the Ford guy. :lol:

With the big brakes and calipers everyone want to run on these cars all (most) the centers crown out for clearance. The obvious exception is the concave spoke wheels. So that I'd say is a given.

To me JMO, Just my term, when I see that crowned center with a high offset wheel with no outer lip it reminds me of popcorn about to pop. This really becomes noticeable to me when the outer edge of the center protrudes beyond the inner step on a step lip wheel.

This obviously doesn't apply to flat lip wheels but for me, as nice as they look in some styles, those don't exist.:lmao: :underchair:


:cheers:

[Ron Sutton]

I'm loving reading this kind of detail! Thank you Rob and Ron for having most of this discussion 'publicly'. :)

I do have a question about the C6 spindle. I wasn't aware that the C6 ran that much caster. Can you explain a bit about the effect of running that much caster, or perhaps asked different, if you run less caster with the C6 spindle, what would the effect be?

My setup uses that spindle, but I've been told to target 6.5 - 7.0* of caster, and my recent alignment check shows 6.8* and 6.2* (I haven't had it aligned fully yet, but that is with camber dead on at the moment). While I realize my setup is different, it supposedly uses pretty close to C6 geometry points.

Keep the techie stuff coming! I'm learning from all of this too!

Okie Dokie Carbuff ... here goes ... but it is so involved it takes 3 posts. :D

Most everyone knows camber, caster & KPI/SAI work together, but most don’t really understand HOW they work together & how they affect each other. I’ll do my best to explain it, but we’ll need to peel the onion one layer at a time, so bear with me.

For those that don’t know what this is, KPI stands for King Pin Inclination & SAI stands for Steering Angle Inclination. They mean the same thing.

KPI was a term coined back in the day of solid front axles when spindles actually used king pins. Steering Angle Inclination is a more correct modern term & is calculated simply by running a theoretical line through the upper & lower ball joints & comparing that angle to the actual spindle pin the hub spins on (rolling axis in the photo). (I use both terms because many race car guys are used to the older term of KPI.) See photo.


...

[Ron Sutton]

Guys,

I'm getting conflicting information on the C6 spindle KPI angle. So take that into account when reading #1234 & #1235.

If the KPI #'s I have been given are incorrect, I will correct the KPI # & the equation in these posts and let everyone know.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part 2 of 3 ... answering Carbuff's question about caster & KPI.

First … think of caster as “dynamic camber” … since caster has no affect on angle of the tires & wheels … until you turn the steering. Then caster is tipping the top of BOTH tires towards the inside of the corner you’re turning into (Good).

KPI angle is important to keep the scrub radius lower. You can look at the illustration in the previous post & imagine how big the scrub radius would be if the KPI was straight up & down through the ball joints.

Think of KPI as “dynamic camber” … since it also has no affect on the angle of the tires & wheels … until you turn the steering. But unlike caster, it is not tipping both tires towards the inside of the corner you’re turning into. KPI is tipping the top of the outside tire out towards the outside of the corner you’re turning into (BAD) and tipping the top of the inside tire in towards the inside of the corner (Good).

When the KPI/Caster Split favors the KPI … the tire & wheel, on the outside of corners, goes into a state of positive camber (BAD) … rolling over on the outside part of the tread and sidewall of the tire … with the inside part of the tread becoming unloaded. Basically, at this point, the actual tread making contact with the pavement (contact patch) gets narrower, making it incapable of maintaining the speed it was capable of an instant earlier, when it had a full contact patch.

Now let’s talk about the tire on the inside of the corner. Some cars roll so much the inside suspension goes into a “droop” or state of extension … and if that car has negative camber gain built in … the droop actually helps the inside tire stand straighter. For cars don’t roll as much … and that compress the suspension on the inside tire & wheel when cornering, the negative camber gain on the tire on the inside of the corner is tilting that inside tire the wrong way. It is rolling over on the inside part of the tread and sidewall of the tire … with the outside part of the tread becoming unloaded. Also making the contact patch narrower, making it incapable of maintaining the speed it was capable of an instant earlier, when it had more contact patch.

So your front tires that were already at their limit of grip … just lost a significant amount of contact patch & essentially got narrower … and lost even more front traction … creating a push or understeer condition.

The amount of dynamic camber loss is minimal with slight amounts of steering input on large sweeping corners, but grows exponentially worse with higher rates of steering input (front wheel steering angle) on tighter corners. More caster would help both situations … creating more dynamic camber the correct way for both tires … keeping the tire contact patches flatter on the track surface. But how much is enough? Read on.

Let’s start with understanding how spindle KPI/SAI works. Let’s use a C6 based spindle with 9.15 degrees of KPI/SAI. If you were to set both the caster & camber at zero … and rotated the spindle 90 degrees each direction … the difference would be 2x the KPI/SAI angle … so in this case 18.3 degrees.

We know the wheels don’t turn anywhere near 90 degrees, but this example makes everything more clear. Please humor me & follow along closely, because I’m about to share something that is one of the most overlooked keys to proper cornering set-up. We will account for the ACTUAL steering turning radius later.

If you rotate the spindle 90 degrees toward the front (like the wheel is turning on an outside corner) the tire & wheel experience 9.15 degrees of camber loss (goes into positive camber). Bad … very bad for the outside tire of a corner. :)

If you rotate the spindle 90 degrees toward the rear (like the wheel is turning on an inside corner) the tire & wheel also experience 9.15 degrees of camber loss (goes into positive camber). But this good for the inside tire of a corner. :)

Reminder, we not turning the wheel 90 degrees in the real world, so don’t lock in on the numbers “too much” … just the concept.

Caster is different. If we set caster at 9.15 degrees positive (top to the rear) & leave KPI/SAI out of the equation, as if we had a spindle with zero KPI/SAI … and you rotate the spindle 90 degrees toward the front (like the wheel is turning on an outside corner) the tire & wheel experience 9.15 degrees of camber gain (goes into negative camber). The right direction for the outside tire in a corner.

If you rotate the spindle 90 degrees toward the rear (like the wheel is turning on an inside corner) the tire & wheel experience 9.15 degrees of camber loss (goes into positive camber). And this is the right direction for the inside tire of a corner.

So … caster helps both the inside & outside wheel & tire. :)

Here’s the most important piece of info to know at this point. It is the first & most important key to getting the front tires to use their full contract patch when cornering … increasing front end grip & turning speed. Drum roll please …

Caster offsets KPI/SAI on the wheel & tire on the outside corner … and compounds (adds to) KPI/SAI on the wheel & tire on the inside corner. :)
Read that again. It’s very important.

This is called KPI/Caster Split. When the Caster & KPI are equal … the caster offsets the negative effects of the spindle KPI on the outside wheel ... and compound the advantages of the KPI on the inside wheel. When the KPI is greater than the caster (unless the car has a TON of Camber) the outside wheel is going to lose camber as the steering is turned & roll over on the outside front tire. Ugly.

The greater the split favoring the KPI, the worse the problem. On the other hand if the KPI/Caster split favors the caster … meaning the caster is slightly greater than the KPI, the outside wheel is going to gain camber as the steering is turned, creating a flatter, better tire contact patch. The inside wheel also gets cambered the correct direction (for the inside wheel) and both front tires stay flatter to the road, have more grip, better turning & higher corner speeds.

Sooo … if we set the car up using spindles with 9.15 degrees of KPI/SAI and 9.15 degrees of caster … and you rotate the spindle 90 degrees toward the front (like the wheel is turning on an outside corner) the tire & wheel experience 0 degrees of camber gain or loss.

Frankly it is zero, no matter what degree you rotate it to the front, because 9.15 degrees of caster counteracts … or neutralizes … the 9.15 degrees of KPI/SAI.

If you rotate the spindle 90 degrees toward the rear (like the wheel is turning on an inside corner) the tire & wheel experience 18.3 degrees of camber loss (goes into positive camber). This is the right direction for the inside tire of a corner … way too much ... but we’re not turning 90 degrees. We’re turning somewhere from 0 to 25 degrees.

What if the wheels were turning 15 degrees? … that’s 1/6 of 90 degrees … times 18.3 … equals 3.05 degrees … the right direction.

So … at this point ... we have:
IF Tire +3.05 degrees (Good)
OF Tire +0.0 degrees (OK)

You’re probably going “Hmmmm” … but we don’t have the whole picture yet.


We have a lot of other geometry to factor in. Remember, we’re peeling this onion a layer at a time, so we’ll get to camber gain, chassis/body roll angle & static camber in steps.

...

[Ron Sutton]

Guys,

I'm getting conflicting information on the C6 spindle KPI angle. So take that into account when reading #1234 & #1235.

If the KPI #'s I have been given are incorrect, I will correct the KPI # & the equation in these posts and let everyone know.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part 3 of 3 ... answering Carbuff's question about caster & KPI.

Camber gain & chassis roll angle are next. Chassis roll angle hurts the contact patch of both tires. Camber gain (towards negative) helps the contact patch for your outside tire & hurts the contact patch for the inside tire.

If you worked out your camber gain to be 1.5 degrees negative “in dive” on the outside tire … and add that to the combination of your caster & KPI/SAI angle of zero … and factor in the car has a chassis/body roll angle of 2.0 degrees … you would still end up with 0.5 degrees of positive dynamic camber (Bad).

Assuming you have a modern low roll angle suspension … to achieve this chassis/body roll angle of 2.0 degrees … the inside tire, of this car in the same corner, is compressed, but not as far, so it doesn’t have as much camber gain towards negative (reminder: camber gain towards negative is bad on the inside tire).

Let’s say we end up with 2/3 the travel & end up with 1.0 degrees negative camber gain (the bad direction for the inside tire) … and add in the 2.0 degrees of roll angle … makes the inside tire with 3.0 degrees of negative dynamic camber (Bad). Then we factor in the 3.05 degrees of positive dynamic camber (Good) … provided by the combination of caster & KPI/SAI … and we end up with the inside tire at 0.05 degrees of positive dynamic camber (Good).

So … at this point ... dynamically we have:
IF Tire +0.05 degrees (Good)
OF Tire +0.5 degrees (Bad)
Not optimum yet, but we’re going the right direction & we’re not done yet. :)

The next layer of the onion is static camber. You need SOME static camber … to help with initial steering turn-in responsiveness. Just don’t get greedy. In road racing or AutoX where you’re turning left & right, static camber is like camber gain. It helps the contact patch on the outside tire & hurts on the inside tire. For this example, let’s add 1.0 degrees of static camber.

Now with static camber added … with your car hard in the corner … suspension in dive, wheel turned 15 degrees for a tight corner … we have:
IF Tire -0.95 degrees (Bad)
OF Tire -0.5 degrees (Good)
Not optimum yet, but we’re going the right direction & we’re not done yet. :)

Now, here is another part I love. You simply add caster until the contact patches of both tires are flat & happy. And from this point the math is easy.

Add 1.0 degree of caster and …
IF Tire +0.05 degrees (Good)
OF Tire -1.5 degrees (Good)

Add 1.25 degree of caster and …
IF Tire +0.30 degrees (Good)
OF Tire -1.75 degrees (Good)

Add 1.5 degree of caster and …
IF Tire +0.55 degrees (Good)
OF Tire -2.0 degrees (Good)

There are many factors that will define your optimum set-up, but this creates a baseline that is darn close.

**P.S. I like to end up “around” 1-2 degrees more dynamic camber on the outside tire, since it is loaded so much more.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a little more involved in this, when you involve exact steering angles for specific corners. The good news is … when you run tighter corners requiring more steering angle than 15 degrees … the caster increases the dynamic camber to help the tires maintain flat contact patches. I use a spread sheet I developed to plug in all the info & know exactly what dynamic camber I have at different steering angles & different camber gain & different suspension travels.

The best way I have found to work out a front end setting is to start with KPI/SAI & caster … then bring in camber gain … and finally static camber … to achieve the optimum dynamic camber for BOTH tires. Regardless of how you get there ... all of these geometry pieces need to work together in harmony to achieve full, optimum contact patches for both front tires in hard cornering situations … for optimum cornering grip & speed.

It probably is clearer now why getting advice on one setting that worked for a buddy’s car … without knowing the whole picture … can be misleading. As a tuner, I couldn’t imagine setting the caster without knowing the spindle KPI & the car’s camber gain … and then of course testing on track with tire crayon on the edges every run (plus taking tire temps).

It’s been said a zillion times. It’s the whole package, not one part or one setting.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember the KPI/Caster Split concept ... if the caster is slightly greater than the KPI, the outside wheel is going to gain camber as the steering is turned, creating a flatter, better tire contact patch. The inside wheel also gets cambered the correct direction (for the inside wheel) and both front tires have more grip, better turning & higher corner speeds.

When I'm designing a front suspension for a specific class with rules on what spindle we can run, I pick the best spindle available under the rules and design everything else to either fix or compliment that spindle. Factory spindles usually have a lot of KPI/SAI ranging from 7-10 degrees. When I have to run a factory spindle ... I know I'm going to end up with 1-2 degrees of caster more than the KPI.

I designed & raced NASCAR Modifieds with factory GM #2 spindles with 8.75 KPI. 10-10.25 degrees of caster produced awesome results. We had a crew chief go off the range with set-ups & try 6-7 degrees of caster, but the cars always pushed in mid corner ... and snapped loose on exit. He was used to running less caster, but didn't take into account the KPI of the spindles we had to run.

The whole combination of KPI/SAI, caster, caster gain, camber, camber gain, Ackerman, toe, steering ratio, etc. ... ALL have to be designed together for optimum cornering performance. All of them are important, but the KPI/Caster Split is critical & often not fully understood.

When I'm designing a front suspension with no rules on what spindle we can run, I design the spindles & have them built. Then I'm not trying to fix anything ... and everything else in the front suspension can be designed to compliment that spindle. For a road racing car, I designed the spindle with 3 degrees of KPI/SAI ... and designed the rest of the the front suspension around what is called a "zero scrub" set-up ... & we ended up with 4.0 degrees of caster for optimum handling. This car did NOT require a high caster number, because the spindle KPI was lower. What is optimum for tight cornering is having the KPI/Caster Split slightly favoring the Caster.

Another successful car I designed with 5 degrees of KPI/SAI ... ended up with optimum handling with 6.5-7.0 degrees of caster ... depending on the track. Again, the key was the KPI/Caster Split slightly favoring the Caster.

This higher amount of caster seems odd to most mechanics & street car guys, but when you look at the newer Corvettes you'll see they run a lot more caster than what most think of as "typical" in the 1.5-3 degree range. The Factory GM specs for the C6 ZR1 is 7.7+ degrees of caster, with a 9.15 degree KPI spindle. The KPI/Caster Split is LOW, but still slightly favoring the KPI by 1.45 degrees. But owners that compete & win in the C6's increase the caster to 9.5-10.5 degrees of caster ... with the KPI/Caster Split favoring the Caster.

The common denominator is we are almost always running more caster than KPI/SAI ... if we can. We run spindles with lowerr KPI where we can too ... but it requires running wheels with DEEP back spacing to get the scrub radius low (or sometimes zero). So simply ordering a spindle with smaller KPI is NOT a bolt-on solution.


Make sense?
Got questions? ... chime in.


...

[Sieg]

Thanks Ron :thumbsup:

For detail and the sprained brain :sieg:

[Ron Sutton]

Ron - Here's my track width data:

Measured outer sidewall to sidewall front and rear. Tire width is sidewall to sidewall. Nitto NT-05's IIRCC - Dale's running Nitto NT-01 255/40/17, 275/40/17.

Front: 69.0625" 245/40/18 tire on 8" rim measures 9.5"
Centerline Track = 59.5625"

Rear: 70.875" 275/40/18 tire on 9.5" rim measures 10.875"
Centerline Track = 60.00"

Hi Sieg,

Your rear TW is 7/16" wider than the front, so that will contribute a very small amount to freeing up your car in the corners.

The 12% wider tires in the rear will contribute a larger amount to tightening up your car in the corners.

Both of those items are just two pieces of the bigger puzzle.

If ... your front geometry is like most PT cars with the KPI/Caster split favoring the KPI significantly ... that would contribute the largest amount to the car's handling being unbalanced & tight/pushy on tight corners ... until the front geometry is corrected or the rear suspension tuned to reduce grip to free the car up.

On the other hand, if you're not running track days with tight corners or AutoX, it may not matter. I surely don't know your car or situation, so I don't want to make any unfounded assumptions.

...

[Sieg]

Ron,

:wacko: I meant Rob - as he requested my data in a PM...........:bang:

But Ron, thank you very much :thumbsup:

I have a spare stock subframe sitting in the garage that I plan to do on a budget somewhat "Smokey" style and this information greatly helps the quest.

My current setup is somewhat goofy as I feel it handles much better than it should, but I've yet to get it to the track and exploit the short-comings. FWIW my only road course experience is on two wheels.

Again thank you for sharing this information, it is very much appreciated.

[carbuff]

Wow... Ask what I thought was a pretty simple question, and I got an amazingly detailed answer! Thank you for taking the time to explain all of that! I've read it twice, and I'm still absorbing it, but your explanation made sense and was very well presented!

I think the next thing I need to figure out is what scrub radius I actually have now. It sounds like that would be one of the next big factors in the equation...

Thanx again!

[carbuff]

On the subject of caster, I do have another question...

I've heard that changing the amount of caster has an impact on the 'feel' of the steering. I've also heard that caster is often used in a street alignment to offset the irregularities that we may experience when driving down the road.

Can you touch on either or both of those, particular how either would relate to the KPI / SAI as you explained them above? Is there a crossover point, for example, on how increasing / decreasing the caster will affect the steering 'feel'? I ask partly because if that's true, I wonder if you can hit a point where we might 'overwork' the steering rack we are using? In other words, I would guess that if we make a change to the caster that causes us to have to use more force to turn the wheels, are we possibly putting more pressure on the rack, and risk damaging it?

I'm thinking out loud with that question, so perhaps it's irrelevant... But in my case, since I'm using a Ford rack that was likely never built to take much abuse, I wonder if that can become a problem?

[Ron Sutton]

Ron,

:wacko: I meant Rob - as he requested my data in a PM...........:bang:
Oops! No worries.

But Ron, thank you very much :thumbsup:
You're welcome.

I have a spare stock subframe sitting in the garage that I plan to do on a budget somewhat "Smokey" style and this information greatly helps the quest.
Hmmm. Where are you located? I have some ideas, but would need to show you in person on the clip.

My current setup is somewhat goofy as I feel it handles much better than it should,
Well that's cool.

but I've yet to get it to the track and exploit the short-comings. FWIW my only road course experience is on two wheels.
Cool. I love bikes but only raced motocross as a kid, never road courses. I'm sure it's a thrill.

Again thank you for sharing this information, it is very much appreciated.

Take care.

...

[Ron Sutton]

Wow... Ask what I thought was a pretty simple question, and I got an amazingly detailed answer! Thank you for taking the time to explain all of that! I've read it twice, and I'm still absorbing it, but your explanation made sense and was very well presented!

I think the next thing I need to figure out is what scrub radius I actually have now. It sounds like that would be one of the next big factors in the equation...

Thanx again!


Scrub Radius is important, but again, it's just one of many factors that all need to work together.

...

[Sieg]

Take care.

...

I'm located in Springfield, OR.......near nothing. :D

[Wissing72]

I'm located in Springfield, OR.......near nothing. :D

Hey I grew up in Eugene. I remember when Springfield really had nothing but a Pulp mill!

[Ron Sutton]

Hi Bryan,

On the subject of caster, I do have another question...

I've heard that changing the amount of caster has an impact on the 'feel' of the steering.
More caster increases the feel of the track in the steering wheel ... communicating to the driver what the front end is doing. Less caster decrease this feel.

More scrub radius increases the feel of the track in the steering wheel ... communicating to the driver what the front end is doing. Less scrub radius decrease this feel.

Since reducing scrub radius is good for turning ability ... but takes away the feel ... and adding caster also helps the turning ability ... and returns the feel ... these are two good tuning changes to do together. . :)

I've also heard that caster is often used in a street alignment to offset the irregularities that we may experience when driving down the road.
What your referring to is factory passenger car settings to help the car drive straight on roads that are crowned. Some mechanics like to put a little more caster in the RF wheel to offset this ... others prefer to add a little static camber in the RF to achieve this.

I'm a race car designer & crew chief, focused on track cars, so we don't do this on road course or AutoX cars ... just oval track cars.

Can you touch on either or both of those, particular how either would relate to the KPI / SAI as you explained them above? Is there a crossover point, for example, on how increasing / decreasing the caster will affect the steering 'feel'? I ask partly because if that's true, I wonder if you can hit a point where we might 'overwork' the steering rack we are using? In other words, I would guess that if we make a change to the caster that causes us to have to use more force to turn the wheels, are we possibly putting more pressure on the rack, and risk damaging it?
That question reminds me of a guy one time buying a large duration, high lift, "mean" aggressive inverted flank ramp roller cam to build optimum power in his 434" SBC ... and then asking how the fuel mileage would be? :omg:

Yes, almost anything you do to make your front end grip more & turn better, is going to put more load on the steering box. Wider tires, grippier tires, wheels with the width wider than the tread width, low profile tires, faster steering ratios, more caster, more camber, bigger sway bars, springs & shocks to provide grip, etc, etc, etc.

About the only thing that will help the car turn better & not increase the load on the steering box is reducing scrub radius.

I'm thinking out loud with that question, so perhaps it's irrelevant... But in my case, since I'm using a Ford rack that was likely never built to take much abuse, I wonder if that can become a problem?[/QUOTE]
That's smart thinking. If you build a mean handling machine & utilize a small, moderate duty steering box, you could have issues.

What R&P do you have ?

.

[Ron Sutton]

I'm located in Springfield, OR.......near nothing. :D

I've been through Eugene before ... on my way to Portland. We're about 500 miles apart which makes it impractical, but I'm confident there are some low buck ... cut & weld mods ... that would make the stock clip work good.

You'd still need some aftermarket parts, but wouldn't need to spend a fortune.

Let me know if you move forward on it & we'll see if we can figure something out.

.

[Flash68]

But in my case, since I'm using a Ford rack that was likely never built to take much abuse, I wonder if that can become a problem?

I am assuming you (and I) have the same rack that Jake used (and still is being used by Vinny in AIX) ?

[FETorino]

Ron

It is enlightening to see the full discussion of KPI/SAI & caster and it's relationship to camber laid out in an easy to digest discussion.:thumbsup:

I'm tempted to cut and paste your roll center discussion on here also but maybe I should leave that to you.

Reading this reminds me of why I reached out to you. A statement made by Carroll Smith in Tune to Win. c.1978. He was speaking of purpose built race chassis. More narrowly focused than the quality pices of engineering available to the PT market.

"What you can buy is a starting point. In a really competitive class of racing it is unlikely to be capable of winning races out of the box. Development is up to you. You will do it by tuning"

Even with a Camaro:mock: there are many variables introduced by the owner that a suspension designer cannot account for. And every design brought to mass market is a compromise that will work for the whole market.

What most of us have from the vendors is a good or great starting point. But if you really want it to work, to the nth degree, you have to invest some time to understand what you really have and how to tune it.:superhack:

With nothing more than a proper install, most, if not all, of these systems would produce a more than competent street car with good manners and ride. But then some people just have to really beat on their stuff.

Instead of race class rules there exists another set of limitations dictated by style and some minimal rules such as tire compounds.

I really enjoy your willingness to post some of the thought process of how to squeeze more blood out of the Turnip or in this case the Torino.:thumbsup:

I have plenty left to do on this build and plan on continuing to post all of tweaks that I hope in the end will result in a very competent big boned girl.


:cheers:

[MX145]

Ron

It is enlightening to see the full discussion of KPI/SAI & caster and it's relationship to camber laid out in an easy to digest discussion.:thumbsup:

I'm tempted to cut and paste your roll center discussion on here also but maybe I should leave that to you.

Thanks for getting this started Rob!
Ron, I greatly appraciate the information. Roll center please!

[Ron Sutton]

Ron

It is enlightening to see the full discussion of KPI/SAI & caster and it's relationship to camber laid out in an easy to digest discussion.:thumbsup:

I'm tempted to cut and paste your roll center discussion on here also but maybe I should leave that to you.

Reading this reminds me of why I reached out to you. A statement made by Carroll Smith in Tune to Win. c.1978. He was speaking of purpose built race chassis. More narrowly focused than the quality pices of engineering available to the PT market.

"What you can buy is a starting point. In a really competitive class of racing it is unlikely to be capable of winning races out of the box. Development is up to you. You will do it by tuning"

Even with a Camaro:mock: there are many variables introduced by the owner that a suspension designer cannot account for. And every design brought to mass market is a compromise that will work for the whole market.

What most of us have from the vendors is a good or great starting point. But if you really want it to work, to the nth degree, you have to invest some time to understand what you really have and how to tune it.:superhack:

With nothing more than a proper install, most, if not all, of these systems would produce a more than competent street car with good manners and ride. But then some people just have to really beat on their stuff.

Instead of race class rules there exists another set of limitations dictated by style and some minimal rules such as tire compounds.

I really enjoy your willingness to post some of the thought process of how to squeeze more blood out of the Turnip or in this case the Torino.:thumbsup:

I have plenty left to do on this build and plan on continuing to post all of tweaks that I hope in the end will result in a very competent big boned girl.


:cheers:

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the kind words.

Your points are all spot on. If you want to optimize performance, you need to tune & test. I have always found the people that do that most, are the ones to beat.

P.S. Love Carroll Smith's books. I read them in 1980 & it set me on the path to design, build & tune race cars the way I do.

.

[Ron Sutton]

Guys,

I'm getting conflicting information on the C6 spindle KPI angle. So take that into account when reading #1234 & #1235.

If the KPI #'s I have been given are incorrect, I will correct the KPI # & the equation in these posts and let everyone know.

.