Camaro XV

[Stielow]

I purchased this '69 Camaro from a buddy of mine John Poggiolo. He purchased it off Ebay from California. It is a super solid car but did need a pass rear quarter due to damage. The car has been at Sled Alley since May so it is well underway. It is fun to be making parts again.

The Plan
• Thomson 427 supercharged engine
• T-56 D&D Prepared trans
• Full DSE Chassis
• Full Anvil Carbon Fiber Front clip
• Carbon Fiber Brakes with ABS
• Rick Fuel tank with a Vapor Works Controls
• Wider rims front and rear than Red Devil
• Data acquisition
• Better cooling package
• Better weight distribution

Murry Pfaff is working on some renderings. I hope to post them soon.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSCN0278_zpsdda13ab0.jpg

In John's Garage

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/SanDiego-20120318-00030_zpsda465053.jpg

In my driveway with my other '69 that I just sold to a GM exec. for his 19 year old son.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/Nikon088_zpsb68e7d12.jpg

The '67 behind the black Camaro is Gordon Rojewski's orginal paint '67. The black pimer Camaro is mine

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/Nikon073_zps3c909c48.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/Nikon081_zpsdeef589d.jpg


I hope to get some work done on it over the holidays. It should be a roller by 2013!

Mark

[WSSix]

Dear lord. You don't stop do you? Lol. So Mayhem has already passed on to the new owner and this is the replacement? This is going to be great as always.

[JON Q]

Camaro XV sounds like the perfect project name.. Mark could you tell a big difference on drive feel on Camaro X with its stock subframe and a DSE sub on Red Devil besides able to run a wider wheel? Looking forward to seeing your new project come together.. Happy Holidays Mark!!

[214Chevy]

Hahahaha, I heard thru the grapevine that Charlie already had Mayhem and and Mark already had a new 69. I was wandering when he was gonna stop holding out on us. Hitting the suscribe button.....riiiiight now.:yes: :yes:

[Sonar Chief]

I'm watching .... here we go again!

[Stielow]

Guys I had an idea of moving the dry sump tank back in the cowl. With some measuring and a cutoff wheel it fits. It all fits inside the fender. Working on getting mass back in the car. I also mounted a C-6 brake booster and master. Matt filled the firewall. I really like the guys at Sled Alley. Top Notch.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/Clinton-20121220-00161_zps8ac1b505.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/Clinton-20121220-00166_zps3b402a06.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/Clinton-20121222-00171_zps74927ca3.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/Clinton-20121222-00170_zpsb51e6fbd.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/SouthfieldCity-20121222-00167_zps2c91486d.jpg

[Regal454]

Looking forward to "Quince":thumbsup:

[Stielow]

Looking forward to "Quince":thumbsup:

Quince? Sorry I don't get it.

quince
noun \ˈkwin(t)s\

: the fruit of a central Asian tree (Cydonia oblonga) of the rose family that resembles a hard-fleshed yellow apple and is used especially in preserves

[Regal454]

Quince? Sorry I don't get it.




quince=15 in Spanish

[DB Z28]

Nice Idea on the drysump tank I was looking at that also. For use on our second gen. Than using using the Fender vent grill to open up to fill and check the oil

[ChuckDriver]

Looking forward to another great build!

[NvrDun71]

Mark do you use a stock off the shelf GM clutch master cylinder? From your pics it looks like an OE 02' F-Body setup. If so have you found any issues with high RPM shifts? Also do you typically just incorporate a clutch pedal stop into the upper pedal bracket? Appreciate your insight on this.

[Sieg]

Awesome Mark!

Thanks for keeping the fire lit and continuing to raise the bar. The inspiration your projects instill in people around the globe is noteworthy. :thumbsup:

[Ron in SoCal]

Lots of great ideas Mark! Thanks for posting...:thumbsup:

[Track Junky]

Thanks for posting Mark. I have to ask.......why is it you continue to go with a four link in the rear as opposed to a 3 link with a watts link?

[Stielow]

Thanks for posting Mark. I have to ask.......why is it you continue to go with a four link in the rear as opposed to a 3 link with a watts link?

It works, packages well and I like it :thumbsup:

If it ain't broke don't fix it. The DSE deal works great. I'm putting a lot of power to it and the only thing I change from the DSE set is a couple reinforcements and a brace to the pan hard bar on the body side.

On paper the 3 link with a watts link is better.... But the DSE stuff works for me.

Mark

[Stielow]

Mark do you use a stock off the shelf GM clutch master cylinder? From your pics it looks like an OE 02' F-Body setup. If so have you found any issues with high RPM shifts? Also do you typically just incorporate a clutch pedal stop into the upper pedal bracket? Appreciate your insight on this.

I'm using the DSE adaptor and the 2002 F-car apply system. With the LS9 clutch and a 7000 RPM shift it works fine. I'm at the limit of the LS9 clutch. I would not use it for drag racing.

I will put the pedal stop on the fire wall.

Mark

[frankv11]

another great car on its way:thumbsup:

[mad68rs]

Sweet! Just in time for Christmas!

[Stielow]

Camaro XV sounds like the perfect project name.. Mark could you tell a big difference on drive feel on Camaro X with its stock subframe and a DSE sub on Red Devil besides able to run a wider wheel? Looking forward to seeing your new project come together.. Happy Holidays Mark!!

There are a lot of great things with the DSE sub-frame.

Great structural feel - Red Devil had no forward bars.
Header clearance with the rack over the stock '69 steering box
Corvette knuckles brakes and ABS sensors
Wider front tires and good turning radius
Sorted set up - I use the as received springs and bars from DSE

Camaro X worked great with the stock sub. The headers were the biggest pain.

I have driven other front sub frames but in my opinion DSE has the best structural feel.

Mark

[randy]

why do you prefer the c6 booster and master instead of using a hydratech system? Im trying to decide what to do about my booster/clutch/master cylinder options. Im running c6 z06 stock front and rear brakes. I would think the c6 booster is the way to go since it works well on a z06.

[Stielow]

why do you prefer the c6 booster and master instead of using a hydratech system? Im trying to decide what to do about my booster/clutch/master cylinder options. Im running c6 z06 stock front and rear brakes. I would think the c6 booster is the way to go since it works well on a z06.

Mainly I have plenty on vacuum and the C-6 stuff is lighter.

Mark

[Stuart Adams]

Looking forward to see it done.

[kwhizz]

Bout Time!!!!

[214Chevy]

Bout Time!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Mark, you've got us hooked between builds. You're like a dope dealer and we are your loyal meth heads. :lol: :lol: If you don't believe me, just watch how fast this thread grows. :yes: :yes:

[Stielow]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Mark, you've got us hooked between builds. You're like a dope dealer and we are your loyal meth heads. :lol: :lol: If you don't believe me, just watch how fast this thread grows. :yes: :yes:

Thanks guys, I've had a rough few months so it is fun to work on my projects again. Lots of new ideas and a few things that stay the same. I'm looking forward to getting back out in the shop and making parts. I spent all day yesterday doing the pedal set up and it was fun. Working with Matt at Sled Alley is awsome. He is better than me at fabing stuff, most stuff, so he was coming over to check my work to make sure it was OK. He'll rework a couple things I'm sure.

They shipped the Anvil part Friday so now I am like a kid waiting for Christmas to see those parts.

I'll post some more pics next week when I get back to Detroit.

Have a Merry Christmas....:lateral:

Mark

[LSBlackbird]

Congrats Mark! Glad to see you're not resting on your laurels. Keep "Raising the bar"! You're an inspiration, thanks for sharing! I'm signed up, keep it coming.

[mad68rs]

Hello Mr. Stielow,

A little off topic but I have been trying to contact you for a while now through a PM, but your box is full. I'm a mechanical engineering student at Cal Poly, and was hoping to ask you a question and maybe recieve some advice. I was hoping I could contact you somehow.

Thank you,
Michael Dutra
[email protected]

[Autokraft]

Mark, do you sleep? Just curious:P

[Flash68]

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/Clinton-20121220-00161_zps8ac1b505.jpg





Mark, is that the 2 or 2.5 gallon tank?

[Bsinclair]

Subscribed !

[Stielow]

Mark, is that the 2 or 2.5 gallon tank?

It is the 2 gallon peterson tank. I'll make it 2.5 with a add on tank.

Mark

[millertime179]

Mark, congrats on another great build with mayhem and Im looking forward to seeing this car come together. I like the oem look and functionality of your cars. always innovative and raising the bar. hope you have a merry christmas and happy new year!

kevin miller

[Flash68]

It is the 2 gallon peterson tank. I'll make it 2.5 with a add on tank.

Mark

Thank you. And thanks for posting your build details for the rest of us. :lateral:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Thanks guys, I've had a rough few months so it is fun to work on my projects again.
Have a Merry Christmas....:lateral:

Mark

Sorry to hear you've had a rough couple of months, Mark.

Merry Christmas to you as well. :)

[srh3trinity]

Didn't the Blu Balz build hide the sump tank in the same place? I know I have seen a first gen build with the tank there. Great placement and very clean.

[fleetus macmullitz]

Didn't the Blu Balz build hide the sump tank in the same place? I know I have seen a first gen build with the tank there. Great placement and very clean.

Actually, the 'shine boys came up with that one. :unibrow:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/wnyjazz/051000_03z1940_ford_tudor_coupetrun.jpg

[73CPCAMARO]

Mark,

Thanks for the thread. We are all going to be watching you build another masterpiece.

Brian

[dunnjun]

Didn't the Blu Balz build hide the sump tank in the same place? I know I have seen a first gen build with the tank there. Great placement and very clean.

I think I remember Cris giving credit to Rodger from Ironworks for the perfect place to put the dry sump tank.

Can't wait to see this one come together Mark! :cheers:

[Wissing72]

subscribing to this one as well... That little pink bunny has nothing on him. Mark truly does keep "going and going and going".........:D Really enjoy seeing the progress you make Mark, thank you for sharing.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

[PTAddict]

Mark,

How much torsional stiffness do you think gets lost with the fiber front clip vs. the steel? That outer/inner steel fender combo seems actually quite rigid when bolted together. I've been thinking about retrofitting my '69 with the Anvil parts, partly for the weight and partly for the extra tire afforded by the new wider front fender they offer. But I'm thinking I'd want to add some downbar/crossbrace type structure?

[waynieZ]

Another great build to watch. Subscribed!

[WILWAXU]

Another awesome car! Thanks for sharing! :thumbsup:

Only problem I see with the tank being under there.. how do you put oil into it? Remove the fender?

[tones2SS]

another great car on its way:thumbsup:

^^You said it. I'll be watching this one as well.

[Roberts68]

Another awesome car! Thanks for sharing! :thumbsup:

Only problem I see with the tank being under there.. how do you put oil into it? Remove the fender?

Surely an engineer like Mark can incorporate a remote fill and drain without too much trouble. Removing the fender does not sound very track savvy or user friendly.

[Stielow]

I poached these pictures off another sight of Anvils new fenders I've ordered.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/widefenders_zps5358abb3.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/frontend_zpse58c7d1f.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/fenderoncar_zps71f432e5.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/fenderlineup_zpsabec4784.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/lowerclip_zpsda369ee1.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/frontcloseup_zpsf5df86b8.jpg

Anyone use these parts yet and have any idea on the mass savings over steel?

I hope my parts fit like these.

Mark

[Stielow]

Another awesome car! Thanks for sharing! :thumbsup:

Only problem I see with the tank being under there.. how do you put oil into it? Remove the fender?

Crap... I forgot that... :willy:

I'm going to make a filler neck that comes through the cowl along with a dip stick.

I hope to make those parts next week and post pictures.

Mark

[nicks67ca]

Hopefully everything is good now:thumbsup: Glad to see you're onto the next project.

[Sales@Dutchboys]

Looking good:thumbsup: the car is progressing very good it looks like. Looking forward to seeing the car all come together with the carbon front end. Should be pretty cool.

P.S did you still want me to get that sweet purple color paint we talked about coming?:lol:

[redsand]

Does anyone where to get the anvil front valance in the picture above? I don't see it on their website?

[Stielow]

P.S did you still want me to get that sweet purple color paint we talked about coming?:lol:

With the ghost flames???? :D

I'll call you when carbon parts show up.

Mark

[WILWAXU]

Crap... I forgot that... :willy:

I'm going to make a filler neck that comes through the cowl along with a dip stick.

I hope to make those parts next week and post pictures.

Mark
:thumbsup:

No trap door in the CF fender? :rofl:

[Stielow]

Does anyone where to get the anvil front valance in the picture above? I don't see it on their website?

Call Anvil. None of these parts are on their web site yet.

Thanks Mark

[Rick D]

Looking great Mark, how come back to a 69? I thought you went to the 67 to save weight?

You still haven't said where Mayhem is :_paranoid :D

[redfire69]

You're going to like the anvil front end, the parts fit very well and don't have any sag around the fender grill opening like the repops. I've got a few pics in my project thread.

[GregWeld]

With the ghost flames???? :D

I'll call you when carbon parts show up.

Mark



Make 'em Tribal....


:thumbsup:

[Rybar]

Very cool Mark, thanks for posting. Your threads and builds have always been one of my favorites. :thumbsup:

[Jgpclone]

man looking good love the whole cf front clip if u dont mind can u pm me whats the price on all that :hail: :thumbsup:

[BADcarma]

I think it is safe to say that this one will be fairly light with more power and more tire. We can assume that XV will have a performance envelope that exceeds Mayhem by a fair margin, especially when we look at the technical specs Mark mentioned. I’m sure the technical specs and engineering will amaze us all… Can’t wait!

[Stielow]

You're going to like the anvil front end, the parts fit very well and don't have any sag around the fender grill opening like the repops. I've got a few pics in my project thread.

More CF pictures from Ron's Camaro.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=15120&page=8

Should be cool!

Mark

[coolwelder62]

Mark,:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[IIisbetter]

At this rate you're already working on Sweet Sixteen. I'm still on Red Devil and Mayhem now XV, you are the man. Thank you for the inspiration.

[clill]

Looking great Mark, how come back to a 69? I thought you went to the 67 to save weight?

You still haven't said where Mayhem is :_paranoid :D


Mayhem is in Detroit waiting for the Detroit Autorama.:lol:

[Rick D]

Mayhem is in Detroit waiting for the Detroit Autorama.:lol:

Ok Charlie you got me on that one :lol: :bow:

[frojoe]

I gotta ask, how do you have time to keep turning out these Camaro's when you've got a fulltime engineering gig at GM??

[Cole]

it's a union job.... he gets 240 sick days a year lol

LOL..

[Stielow]

mark can you post pics of these mods....pretty please...thx in advance, rm

I wrap 1/8 inch plate around the stock '69 frame rails and tie into the DSE cross car channel.

I add a brace to reinforce the pan hard DSE mount.

I also add a tube from the rear roll bar tube to above where the shock mounts

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Capture3_zps44978522.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Capture2_zpsb766478b.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/Capture4_zps29bc4b84.jpg

[dontlifttoshift]

Mark, just wider wheels or more tire as well? It seems you are happy with your 275/325 combo, just wondering if you are planning on sharpening up the handling with a wider wheel and maintaining the same tire size.

Those front fenders are wider aren't they?

[Stielow]

Mark, just wider wheels or more tire as well? It seems you are happy with your 275/325 combo, just wondering if you are planning on sharpening up the handling with a wider wheel and maintaining the same tire size.

Those front fenders are wider aren't they?

There are new tires out for 2013 so I'm revisiting my tire sizes. I have room to go with a 18 X 11 front wheel and a 18 X 13 rear. I could also push to 19s. I need to test a few tires and see what works out.

Mark

[pro-touring.no]

What size are you going to have on the exshaust tubes?? 3 inc?

[dontlifttoshift]

There are new tires out for 2013 so I'm revisiting my tire sizes. I have room to go with a 18 X 11 front wheel and a 18 X 13 rear. I could also push to 19s. I need to test a few tires and see what works out.

Mark

Thanks, looking forward to your results.

[Richio1]

http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab116/Richio1/2012-12-24_14-10-03_197.jpg

Mark, saw this at Bubba Gumps in Maui this week. I know its old but what the hay.

[mikels]

The Plan
• Thomson 427 supercharged engine
• Better cooling package

Been working at Thomson's on further refinements / improvements for the 427SC package - always difficult to make the power, meet drivability requirements and control heat rejection - especially in a car that gets driven as 'gently' as Mark's.

Mayhem was a great step forward - picked up nearly 100 HP in exchange for 15 lb/ft TQ (from Red Devil) - while maintaining reasonable heat rejection.

Have several ideas - many of which can easily achieve 1000 HP - but not necessarily meet other requirements at same time. Testing (and data) will tell....

Will be fun to get new combo on dyno in near future!

Dave

[Stielow]

http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab116/Richio1/2012-12-24_14-10-03_197.jpg

Mark, saw this at Bubba Gumps in Maui this week. I know its old but what the hay.

Thanks --- Thats very cool.

[Stielow]

What size are you going to have on the exshaust tubes?? 3 inc?

Yes 3 inch all the way out the back. Once we get the new engine done we are going to test different headers also. Long tube vs short tube.

Mark

[OLDFLM]

Yes 3 inch all the way out the back. Once we get the new engine done we are going to test different headers also. Long tube vs short tube.

Mark

Mark,

What are your mufflers of choice? Borla? Based on flow / backpressure / sound?

Also, please please please do a 2nd Gen at some point! Please?

Regards,

Ty

[Stielow]

Been working at Thomson's on further refinements / improvements for the 427SC package - always difficult to make the power, meet drivability requirements and control heat rejection - especially in a car that gets driven as 'gently' as Mark's.

Mayhem was a great step forward - picked up nearly 100 HP in exchange for 15 lb/ft TQ (from Red Devil) - while maintaining reasonable heat rejection.

Have several ideas - many of which can easily achieve 1000 HP - but not necessarily meet other requirements at same time. Testing (and data) will tell....

Will be fun to get new combo on dyno in near future!

Dave

For the guys who don't know Dave Mikels, he is one of my best friends and my secret weapon for POWER. We have known each other since we were roommates in college. On our Formula SAE car Dave was driveline and I was chassis. Humm 25 years later Dave is the Power guy and I'm the handling guy. Dave is also a great driver so we make a formidable team. We are also super competive guys so we push each other to be the best we can be.

Brain Thomson, Dave and I are kicking around a few ideas on if we need more power and how much. If I can hook it up I can always use more power. :thumbsup:

Every car I build and drive I learn something. Mayhem worked great for a “new” car. The engine ran like a freight train and the chassis needed to be tweaked to better use it.

For fun I overlaided Red Devils and Mayhems laps from OUSCI and if you pull the best theoretical out of the data. (Mayhems power and breaks with Red Devil’s cornering speeds) the lap times come down 4 seconds a lap.
I’m very excited on Camaro XVs plan to move mass around in the car and redesign all the heat exchangers.

Someone asked why a ’69 and not a ’67. I like ’69 a little better and there are more parts for a ’69.

Mark

[jimbo]

So what color is it going to be?:D

[Stielow]

So what color is it going to be?:D

Well..... Not sure yet.

There never was a time I looked at Red Devil and did not love that red. I really like the white on Camaro X because I could wash it and dry in 10 minutes. Or some other solid color that can be retouched easily.

I have Murray Pfaff doing some designs so I have a lot of time to decide.

Mark

[GrabberGT]

Sorry. Im not a Camaro guy but in this pic it looks more like a frame plate rather than a rail. Is the frame rail really cut that narrow for the mini-tub? Another pic from another angle would help clarify.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Capture3_zps44978522.jpg


Thanks for the detailed build info.

[Lous69]

Wow, sounds like that Formula SAE program at the University of Missouri- Rolla (UMR), which is now called Missouri University of Science and Technology), served to create some heavy hitters.

Mark Stielow,..... Kyle Tucker and now we learn Dave was also part of that program. Very Impressive.

[clill]

He's not doing white ! I'll Killllllll himmmmm.........

[camcojb]

He's not doing white ! I'll Killllllll himmmmm.........
start working on your alibi........ :lol:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Sorry. Im not a Camaro guy but in this pic it looks more like a frame plate rather than a rail. Is the frame rail really cut that narrow for the mini-tub? Another pic from another angle would help clarify.


Thanks for the detailed build info.

Yes, depending on the fabricator it can get down to a 1/2" in that spot. Behind the area where Mark added the plate. But remember it is heavily reinforced in that area with 2 0.120" plates. Probably stronger than stock. Then add the strength from the cage down bars.

[fleetus macmullitz]

He's not doing white ! I'll Killllllll himmmmm.........

Hopefully Whirpool doesn't sponsor Mark then...cuz their new style replacing stainless is 'White Ice', and it'll be all over that car.


:lol:

[JKnight]

I always thought Camaro X looked killer in white. I was very surprised you (Charley) had so much trouble finding a buyer for the car in white. I didn't have the stack of bills available to make my opinion matter though... ;)

[Vince@Meanstreets]

what is heat rejection????

the removal of heat from a heat generator. Water to air cooling or the exhaust. In this case he was referring to the inner cooler or heat exchanger efficiency.

[JohnC]

He's not doing white ! I'll Killllllll himmmmm.........

I always thought Camaro X looked killer in white. I was very surprised you (Charley) had so much trouble finding a buyer for the car in white. I didn't have the stack of bills available to make my opinion matter though... ;)


That's kind of funny because that was one of the reasons I intiatially bought it (an original 50 50 code - Dover White car). ...in addition to it being a pretty solid CA black plate car.:cheers:

John

[mikels]

the removal of heat from a heat generator. Water to air cooling or the exhaust. In this case he was referring to the inner cooler or heat exchanger efficiency.

In this case, there is 3 sources of heat - engine, supercharger and AC. Breaking that down further, engine heat in form of coolant and oil, supercharger heat in form of air and AC in form of refrigerant.

Engine heat in coolant and oil comes from the inefficiencies of an IC engine - only about 1/3 the energy released from combustion actually makes power, another 1/3 goes into cooling system (coolant & oil) and 1/3 goes out exhaust.

Since this is a SC engine, also have to take into account mechanical energy used to drive supercharger - in Red Devil and Mayhem, this worked out to ~120-140HP. So Mayhem generating an output of 878 HP is actually generating over 1000 HP already - and that also nearly equals the amount of energy we need to release from cooling system.

Complicating this further, we have the heat from the intake air charge to reduce as well - and use air-to-water heat exchanger with a stand-alone cooling system to then convert this with a water-to-air heat exchanger in front of car. Since delta-T is critical for heat exchanger effectiveness, we package the intercooler radiator in front of the cooling stack (all the heat exchangers in front of car) to get greatest delta-T for charge air cooling. This adversely effects radiator efficiency as air temp reaching front face of it is already heated above ambient. And we have 1000+ HP worth of heat to dissipate from it.

Packaged between the CAC (charge air cooler radiator) and the coolant radiator is the AC condenser. At least Mark hasn't become too much of a wimp is his old age to want to race with AC on, so while this doesn't add heat to air flowing through, it does add pressure drop of airflow through entire cooling stack.

We also have engine oil to contend with - and can either use oil-to-air heat exchanger, or oil-to-water. If oil-to-water, this is more KW to release through radiator. If oil-to-air packaging, airflow restriction and preheated cooling air have to be considered.

All this is converted to heat transfer equations and calculated to optimize the entire cooling system of heat rejection balance.

Drag racing is easy - you can get away with a whole lot if only running in <10 second bursts of WOT. Road racing makes this much more difficult as entire system reaches equilibrium.

And haven't even talked about trans and diff oil cooling yet....

Dave

[JohnC]

Wow, very cool, Dave. :faint: :D ...you are an awesome dude.:thumbsup:

John

[frojoe]

In this case, there is 3 sources of heat - engine, supercharger and AC. Breaking that down further, engine heat in form of coolant and oil, supercharger heat in form of air and AC in form of refrigerant.

Engine heat in coolant and oil comes from the inefficiencies of an IC engine - only about 1/3 the energy released from combustion actually makes power, another 1/3 goes into cooling system (coolant & oil) and 1/3 goes out exhaust.

Since this is a SC engine, also have to take into account mechanical energy used to drive supercharger - in Red Devil and Mayhem, this worked out to ~120-140HP. So Mayhem generating an output of 878 HP is actually generating over 1000 HP already - and that also nearly equals the amount of energy we need to release from cooling system.

Complicating this further, we have the heat from the intake air charge to reduce as well - and use air-to-water heat exchanger with a stand-alone cooling system to then convert this with a water-to-air heat exchanger in front of car. Since delta-T is critical for heat exchanger effectiveness, we package the intercooler radiator in front of the cooling stack (all the heat exchangers in front of car) to get greatest delta-T for charge air cooling. This adversely effects radiator efficiency as air temp reaching front face of it is already heated above ambient. And we have 1000+ HP worth of heat to dissipate from it.

Packaged between the CAC (charge air cooler radiator) and the coolant radiator is the AC condenser. At least Mark hasn't become too much of a wimp is his old age to want to race with AC on, so while this doesn't add heat to air flowing through, it does add pressure drop of airflow through entire cooling stack.

We also have engine oil to contend with - and can either use oil-to-air heat exchanger, or oil-to-water. If oil-to-water, this is more KW to release through radiator. If oil-to-air packaging, airflow restriction and preheated cooling air have to be considered.

All this is converted to heat transfer equations and calculated to optimize the entire cooling system of heat rejection balance.

Drag racing is easy - you can get away with a whole lot if only running in <10 second bursts of WOT. Road racing makes this much more difficult as entire system reaches equilibrium.

And haven't even talked about trans and diff oil cooling yet....

Dave

Spoken like a true engineer. Very well worded.

[Track Junky]

Thanks Dave, that was an interesting read.

Amazes me how you guys continue to raise the bar with each build.

[clill]

Don't give em a reason for even fatter heads.

[glassman]

Can fatter heads process more data?


Cause this s#\+s awesome

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Don't give em a reason for even fatter heads.

you can only pull so much foam out of a helmet. :D

[Radlark]

you can only pull so much foam out of a helmet. :D

LMBO!!!!:lol:

[WSSix]

Dave and Mark too, would locating the different fluid to air exchangers in separate spots be better? Or do you run into other obstacles such as air flow and packaging that cause it to be too cumbersome or add too much weight? I'd also imagine aero considerations have to be factored in there too. Instead of having one central area to concentrate on having proper air flow through, you'd have multiple.

[Stielow]

Dave and Mark too, would locating the different fluid to air exchangers in separate spots be better? Or do you run into other obstacles such as air flow and packaging that cause it to be too cumbersome or add too much weight? I'd also imagine aero considerations have to be factored in there too. Instead of having one central area to concentrate on having proper air flow through, you'd have multiple.

On Red Devil we ran the diff, tran, engine oil good and power steer was all sent to the front of the car to be cooled. On Mayhem we move the trans and diff cooler to the back to reduce the thermal load on the front. Mayhems engine coolant temp as very on track but we are still chasing an engine oil cooling issue. On Camaro XV I'm adding an even bigger rad and oil heat exchanger.

But as we attempt to rebalance the thermal load Thomson is upping the power..
I think we can keep it cool and make more power.

Mark

[coolwelder62]

On Red Devil we ran the diff, tran, engine oil good and power steer was all sent to the front of the car to be cooled. On Mayhem we move the trans and diff cooler to the back to reduce the thermal load on the front. Mayhems engine coolant temp as very on track but we are still chasing an engine oil cooling issue. On Camaro XV I'm adding an even bigger rad and oil heat exchanger.

But as we attempt to rebalance the thermal load Thomson is upping the power..
I think we can keep it cool and make more power.

Mark:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Track Junky]

On Red Devil we ran the diff, tran, engine oil good and power steer was all sent to the front of the car to be cooled. On Mayhem we move the trans and diff cooler to the back to reduce the thermal load on the front. Mayhems engine coolant temp as very on track but we are still chasing an engine oil cooling issue. On Camaro XV I'm adding an even bigger rad and oil heat exchanger.

But as we attempt to rebalance the thermal load Thomson is upping the power..
I think we can keep it cool and make more power.

Mark

I'm probably going to step out on a real thin limb here but I dont see the purpose of running coolers for rear diff, power steering, and trans when you may run 25 minutes a session at most?

[Roberts68]

I think we can keep it cool and make more power.

Mark

Trust me. If the trend continues it WILL be plenty COOL... even if the temp is a bit to the high side. I'm just sayin'...:thumbsup:

[WSSix]

On Red Devil we ran the diff, tran, engine oil good and power steer was all sent to the front of the car to be cooled. On Mayhem we move the trans and diff cooler to the back to reduce the thermal load on the front. Mayhems engine coolant temp as very on track but we are still chasing an engine oil cooling issue. On Camaro XV I'm adding an even bigger rad and oil heat exchanger.

But as we attempt to rebalance the thermal load Thomson is upping the power..
I think we can keep it cool and make more power.

Mark

Thanks Mark! Good luck.

[PTAddict]

I'm probably going to step out on a real thin limb here but I dont see the purpose of running coolers for rear diff, power steering, and trans when you may run 25 minutes a session at most?

I'm running a NA LS7 with a lot less HP than Mark - about 600 - and I certainly can't drive my car as close to the limit as he does his :) But I still find PS and trans cooling to be essential for Summer track days, I think partly because temps never return to baseline between sessions. By the 2nd or 3rd sesssion, both steering and shifting went to hell by 10 minutes in without coolers. My diff temps are marginal - 260 - 280 with synthetic fluid - and I haven't added a diff cooler yet.

[Stielow]

I'm probably going to step out on a real thin limb here but I dont see the purpose of running coolers for rear diff, power steering, and trans when you may run 25 minutes a session at most?

With over 700 - 800 HP on tap and my driving style I can over temp the diff in 3 laps. The power steering I can over temp autoXing in a few laps easy. I have less data on the trans but while I'm at it I add one. If someone is not going 10/10ths then the extra cooler are not needed.

If your car is running lower power then the coolers are not needed. I have gotten diff so hot that it has ruined gear sets. I forget how many Watts the diff buts out but it is not insignificant.

I will add a disclaimer here. My builds are not normal and my duty cycle is not normal. Heck if I run a full 25 min. session I get a lot of stuff real hot.

Mark

[Track Junky]

With over 700 - 800 HP on tap and my driving style I can over temp the diff in 3 laps. The power steering I can over temp autoXing in a few laps easy. I have less data on the trans but while I'm at it I add one. If someone is not going 10/10ths then the extra cooler are not needed.

If your car is running lower power then the coolers are not needed. I have gotten diff so hot that it has ruined gear sets. I forget how many Watts the diff buts out but it is not insignificant.

I will add a disclaimer here. My builds are not normal and my duty cycle is not normal. Heck if I run a full 25 min. session I get a lot of stuff real hot.

Mark

Well I probably should have known better to question an engineer. I was just thinking how much power and weight loss you would gain without those items.

Thanks for the explanation.

[Track Junky]

I'm running a NA LS7 with a lot less HP than Mark - about 600 - and I certainly can't drive my car as close to the limit as he does his :) But I still find PS and trans cooling to be essential for Summer track days, I think partly because temps never return to baseline between sessions. By the 2nd or 3rd sesssion, both steering and shifting went to hell by 10 minutes in without coolers. My diff temps are marginal - 260 - 280 with synthetic fluid - and I haven't added a diff cooler yet.

I'm running an NA 427 620/560 to the crank and my KRC aluminum PS pump has treated me well so far since 2002. My trans is spec'd for Royal Purple by the builder and I change fluids after every track day and the oil still looks good. Trans in car since 2006. No cooler for rear diff either and car is used strictly for time trials on road courses. Same Eaton carrier since 2004.
This is why I asked the question.

[PTAddict]

I'm running an NA 427 620/560 to the crank and my KRC aluminum PS pump has treated me well so far since 2002. My trans is spec'd for Royal Purple by the builder and I change fluids after every track day and the oil still looks good. Trans in car since 2006. No cooler for rear diff either and car is used strictly for time trials on road courses. Same Eaton carrier since 2004.
This is why I asked the question.

Yeah, I think the experiences on this can be quite variable. For instance, I think the T56 trans in 1st or 2nd gen is likely to be more vulnerable to overheating issues, due to the very tight fit in the tunnel and the close proximity of exhaust routing for optimal ground clearance. I've built two 1st gens and one 2nd gen with a T56, and all of them would develop sticky shifting issues as the day went on with multiple track sessions - and I tried, by my count, at least 5 different synthetic trans fluids trying to cure the problem.

I'd note that late model Z06 vettes and SS or ZL1 Camaros have trans coolers standard, and that probably influences my perspective as well. As an engineer myself, I tend to think the decisions of engineers to add extra cost/extra weight items to a production vehicle are based on rational considerations.

On the PS front, things again are quite variable. On my 2nd gen, with an older stock style PS pump and recirculating ball box, never had a problem with no cooler. On my '69, using DSE pump and rack, I've had fluid boilover even with a cooler.

Overall, after many track outings that have ended early for one obscure failure or another, I am much more in the "over-engineer from the beginning" camp. Different strokes :thumbsup:

[Track Junky]

Yeah, I think the experiences on this can be quite variable. For instance, I think the T56 trans in 1st or 2nd gen is likely to be more vulnerable to overheating issues, due to the very tight fit in the tunnel and the close proximity of exhaust routing for optimal ground clearance. I've built two 1st gens and one 2nd gen with a T56, and all of them would develop sticky shifting issues as the day went on with multiple track sessions - and I tried, by my count, at least 5 different synthetic trans fluids trying to cure the problem.

I'd note that late model Z06 vettes and SS or ZL1 Camaros have trans coolers standard, and that probably influences my perspective as well. As an engineer myself, I tend to think the decisions of engineers to add extra cost/extra weight items to a production vehicle are based on rational considerations.

On the PS front, things again are quite variable. On my 2nd gen, with an older stock style PS pump and recirculating ball box, never had a problem with no cooler. On my '69, using DSE pump and rack, I've had fluid boilover even with a cooler.

Overall, after many track outings that have ended early for one obscure failure or another, I am much more in the "over-engineer from the beginning" camp. Different strokes :thumbsup:

I hear you...most guys build for the street so different strokes for sure.
With Mark trying to incorporate a street/track combination there are definitely more challenges to be met. Especially when laying down that kind of power.:thumbsup:

[Stuart Adams]

Seeing the engineering and the product Mark produces I think after 15 camaro's of learning and testing each, I'd be doing what he sais. Cool stuff.

[garickman]

Good Point!:thumbsup:

[kwhizz]

When you are making Stielow power.......Just think about the pressure transferred between the teeth on the pinion and the ring gear under full throttle......tremendous pressure equals Lots "O" Heat........and that go's for everything else in the system...........

Ken

[BADcarma]

I have been thinking about heat management in my project as well. I looked at the Corvette racing team's cars and observed that the rear bumper covers are vented and visible through the screen is what looks like an AC condenser and fan, the possibility that other heat exchangers are tucked in there is pretty good. I've not been under a 69 Camaro but I have seen some custom work on the lower valances on many cars. Usually it's for exhaust tips but I was thinking that maybe there is enough room to mount heat exchangers there and vent them through the valance. This will package and work well for my car but it certainly won't work for a lot of vehicles.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I'm running an NA 427 620/560 to the crank and my KRC aluminum PS pump has treated me well so far since 2002. My trans is spec'd for Royal Purple by the builder and I change fluids after every track day and the oil still looks good. Trans in car since 2006. No cooler for rear diff either and car is used strictly for time trials on road courses. Same Eaton carrier since 2004.
This is why I asked the question.

says the guy that "boiled" the top off of his power steering pump on a track day. :rofl:

[CarlC]

says the guy that "boiled" the top off of his power steering pump on a track day. :rofl:

Been there, done that.

Mark, are you running thermostats on the drivetrain coolers (differential + transmission) combined with differential gear oil squirters?

Any concerns with EHL film thickness on the engine bearings running 1000+ piston horsepower?

[mikels]

Any concerns with EHL film thickness on the engine bearings running 1000+ piston horsepower?

First Thomson 427SC engine was built and run way back in 2008. This was for his Pontiac Solstice and utilized LSX block, LS7 heads and Harrop 2300SC. Engine made 990+ crank HP with an aggressive cam, and dropped to 850 crank HP with milder cam as installed in car. After over 100 dyno pulls and 5000+ miles installed in car, engine was disassembled and all parts blueprinted / inspected for wear. All looked great. Keep in mind this was never used for road-race or extended high duty cycle use, so powertrain cooling was never an issue.

At same time this was ongoing, Thomson was developing a twin-turbo LSX generating 2000+ HP. Original engine was 440 CID and dyno testing reveled that after few pulls, crank bearings were distressed, and had they not been coated bearings, a bearing failure would have been likely. Issue was traced to crank deflection under load, so stroke was shortened (increased overlap of throws and mains) to increase strength. Engine then completed 150 full power pulls on dyno (2058 HP average) and subsequently disassembled. All bearings looked like new.

Fast-forward to today:

Based on these and countless other engine builds, testing and further development, Thomson 427SC engines have proven themselves robust even under extreme racing type usage (Mark's cars being one of the most aggressive test beds used). We continually refine and improve package based on knowledge gained over each build and test data. This includes not only hardware selection, but assembly clearances, powertrain cooling requirements and calibration refinement.

Mark has said on many occasions that not only are the Thomson 427SC engines the most powerful he has ever utilized in his builds, they have also been the most reliable and driveable as well. And hard to dispute the results.

Not sure if this directly answers your question as we lack the technology to measure oil film thickness, but empirical data based on many, many engines supports where we are today (with headroom to grow:unibrow: ).

[RussMurco]

First Thomson 427SC engine was built and run way back in 2008. This was for his Pontiac Solstice and utilized LSX block, LS7 heads and Harrop 2300SC. Engine made 990+ crank HP with an aggressive cam, and dropped to 850 crank HP with milder cam as installed in car. After over 100 dyno pulls and 5000+ miles installed in car, engine was disassembled and all parts blueprinted / inspected for wear. All looked great. Keep in mind this was never used for road-race or extended high duty cycle use, so powertrain cooling was never an issue.

At same time this was ongoing, Thomson was developing a twin-turbo LSX generating 2000+ HP. Original engine was 440 CID and dyno testing reveled that after few pulls, crank bearings were distressed, and had they not been coated bearings, a bearing failure would have been likely. Issue was traced to crank deflection under load, so stroke was shortened (increased overlap of throws and mains) to increase strength. Engine then completed 150 full power pulls on dyno (2058 HP average) and subsequently disassembled. All bearings looked like new.

Fast-forward to today:

Based on these and countless other engine builds, testing and further development, Thomson 427SC engines have proven themselves robust even under extreme racing type usage (Mark's cars being one of the most aggressive test beds used). We continually refine and improve package based on knowledge gained over each build and test data. This includes not only hardware selection, but assembly clearances, powertrain cooling requirements and calibration refinement.

Mark has said on many occasions that not only are the Thomson 427SC engines the most powerful he has ever utilized in his builds, they have also been the most reliable and driveable as well. And hard to dispute the results.

Not sure if this directly answers your question as we lack the technology to measure oil film thickness, but empirical data based on many, many engines supports where we are today (with headroom to grow:unibrow: ).

And...

In this case, there is 3 sources of heat - engine, supercharger and AC. Breaking that down further, engine heat in form of coolant and oil, supercharger heat in form of air and AC in form of refrigerant.

Engine heat in coolant and oil comes from the inefficiencies of an IC engine - only about 1/3 the energy released from combustion actually makes power, another 1/3 goes into cooling system (coolant & oil) and 1/3 goes out exhaust.

Since this is a SC engine, also have to take into account mechanical energy used to drive supercharger - in Red Devil and Mayhem, this worked out to ~120-140HP. So Mayhem generating an output of 878 HP is actually generating over 1000 HP already - and that also nearly equals the amount of energy we need to release from cooling system.

Complicating this further, we have the heat from the intake air charge to reduce as well - and use air-to-water heat exchanger with a stand-alone cooling system to then convert this with a water-to-air heat exchanger in front of car. Since delta-T is critical for heat exchanger effectiveness, we package the intercooler radiator in front of the cooling stack (all the heat exchangers in front of car) to get greatest delta-T for charge air cooling. This adversely effects radiator efficiency as air temp reaching front face of it is already heated above ambient. And we have 1000+ HP worth of heat to dissipate from it.

Packaged between the CAC (charge air cooler radiator) and the coolant radiator is the AC condenser. At least Mark hasn't become too much of a wimp is his old age to want to race with AC on, so while this doesn't add heat to air flowing through, it does add pressure drop of airflow through entire cooling stack.

We also have engine oil to contend with - and can either use oil-to-air heat exchanger, or oil-to-water. If oil-to-water, this is more KW to release through radiator. If oil-to-air packaging, airflow restriction and preheated cooling air have to be considered.

All this is converted to heat transfer equations and calculated to optimize the entire cooling system of heat rejection balance.

Drag racing is easy - you can get away with a whole lot if only running in <10 second bursts of WOT. Road racing makes this much more difficult as entire system reaches equilibrium.

And haven't even talked about trans and diff oil cooling yet....

Dave

Wow... This is above and beyond the most informative, real-world experience information I have ever read on a forum of any kind. On occasion I think I have most all the knowledge I need to accomplish a goal, then I get slapped into reality with posts like these and it makes me thirsty for more information.

I am so grateful that you guys share this information with us, I learn something every day on this site. Being a "fly on the wall" has never been so interesting!

Thanks!!! :lateral:

[Rybar]

Mark has said on many occasions that not only are the Thomson 427SC engines the most powerful he has ever utilized in his builds, they have also been the most reliable and driveable as well. And hard to dispute the results.



Interesting. So Mayhem's motor is more powerful than the Mule's TT SBC? I always wondered what Mark's thoughts were on comparing his latest cars to the Mule. That thing was so far ahead of it's game when he built it. Love that car I hope Charley never sells it.

[GregWeld]

Charley will no doubt whip me like a small child -- but if I remember correctly -- the Mule was not a TT build when Mark did the car... it was an 8 stack injected small block... and CHARLEY converted it to the TT configuration that I think made 1041 HP....

[Rybar]

Charley will no doubt whip me like a small child -- but if I remember correctly -- the Mule was not a TT build when Mark did the car... it was an 8 stack injected small block... and CHARLEY converted it to the TT configuration that I think made 1041 HP....

I think you are right Greg.

[mikels]

So Mayhem's motor is more powerful than the Mule's TT SBC?

While the Mule is certainly capable of making more power than Mayhem, I don't believe it has ever been run in 'track duty' at a power level higher than Mayhem due to the very thing we were talking about previously - powertrain cooling.

Dave

[Stielow]

While the Mule is certainly capable of making more power than Mayhem, I don't believe it has ever been run in 'track duty' at a power level higher than Mayhem due to the very thing we were talking about previously - powertrain cooling.

Dave

Yes the Mule made more dyno power. I did drive it at Thunderhill at 8 psi boost and it ran great until the oil temperature was too high. We never ran it at full boost on track. Even with very well sized turbos the turbo lag and power boost is harder to drive off the corners than the 427 SC engines. I think the installed power of Mayhem is on pair with where the Mule is on pump fuel. But, the 427 SC LS engines that Dave has tuned have great driveablty. They are like big electric DC motor. Demand torque and get torque. The engine calibration is dead on, no holes or sags. The Mule had an old FAST EFI system on it off memory and had a good cal but not a refined as the LS stuff.

I love the big inch blown LS9 based engine. I finally have great street drivabilty that makes stupid power. Both Red Devil and Mayhem’s engine idle below 800 rpm and have OEM drivability. I also love the fact I can beat them hard on the track with no issues if you can keep them cool and fed with fuel.
Mayhem makes more power more efficiently than Red Devil due to better management of air through the engine. We made more power with less boost. By working the blower less hard it makes less heat and takes less power to turn. We are now running it at a more efficient point on the compressor map. Huh… Engineering…

Mark

[clill]

Yes I'll sell anything including the Mule. You will even get cases of Stielow books. I'll even make him autograph them . The Mule was built with 8 stack Kinsler injection but was supposed to be a twin turbo while mark still owned it. The problem was the Turbo engine builder was so slow Mark ended up selling me the car before he got the engine. When he finally got the engine it went in Malitude. Then under Jody's ownership Malitude got a better twin turbo engine. The Mule still has the Kinsler intake on it under all that hand fabbed aluminum.

[Stielow]

Yes I'll sell anything including the Mule. You will even get cases of Stielow books. I'll even make him autograph them . The Mule was built with 8 stack Kinsler injection but was supposed to be a twin turbo while mark still owned it. The problem was the Turbo engine builder was so slow Mark ended up selling me the car before he got the engine. When he finally got the engine it went in Malitude. Then under Jody's ownership Malitude got a better twin turbo engine. The Mule still has the Kinsler intake on it under all that hand fabbed aluminum.

The Mule runs like a freight train also. If I took what I have learned over the last 5 - 7 years and tuned on the Mule it would be faster yet. Still a great iconic car. At the time I did the Mule I did not size the oil cooler big enough.

Mark

[GregWeld]

What a great discussion!


Let's face it -- it's just hard to beat great engineering!

[camcojb]

The Mule runs like a freight train also. If I took what I have learned over the last 5 - 7 years and tuned on the Mule it would be faster yet. Still a great iconic car. At the time I did the Mule I did not size the oil cooler big enough.



Mark


http://camcojb.com/temp/thunderhill%20006r.jpg



http://camcojb.com/temp/thunderhill%20011r.jpg

[Stielow]

http://camcojb.com/temp/thunderhill%20006r.jpg



http://camcojb.com/temp/thunderhill%20011r.jpg

That's Jody in a the passenger seat....:thumbsup:

Fun day beating on Charley's junk. :unibrow:

Mark

[Steve68]

Mark,

whats the difference in oil cooler sizes between the Mule and Mayhem vs XV, is it a difference in line size or cooler size, thanks

[Stielow]

Mark,

whats the difference in oil cooler sizes between the Mule and Mayhem vs XV, is it a difference in line size or cooler size, thanks

The Mule had a oil to water oil cooler built into the end tank of a Griffin rad. It held the oil temp down to under 250F for 3-5 laps. The turbos drive a lot of heat into the oil. One issue I have found is some of the older gauges don’t read high enough for synthetic oils. Redline has told me there engine oils are good to 325F. The Mule gauge pegged at 250F so we were shutting off early. Jackass has a relatively stock LS9 in it and it has no cooling issues on track with its Ron Davis rad with an oil to water oil cooler built into it. Red Devil runs a stock LS9 oil to water oil cooler mounted to the side of the engine. Once we had that car fully tuned up it would over temp the oil and the water in 5 laps on a 90 degree day. On Mayhem I upped the rad and moved the trans and diff coolers to the back of the car. In a 5 lap session the water temp was great and the oil temp is getting marginal. That oil cooler is built into the rad as a oil to water cooler.

On Camaro XV we upper the rad size even more with a custom core from Dewitt. I met with C&R rad at SEMA and they steered me to a larger 13 plate oil to water oil cooler that should keep my oil temp good. I have opened up the front of the car with the new Anvil front clip. I’m using my vented hood again to help move air through the rad. Dewitt is also making me a one off intercooler heat exchanger that will nest into the cooling stack to maximize core face and air flow. On Red Devil, Mayhem and Camaro XV I’ve ran a very large powerful cooling fan. It is a 20 inch dia Caddy SRX Turbo fan what pulls 850W. I like oil to water coolers because it heat the oil then cools the oil. It also makes a very clean installation. Dewitt is finishing the cooling stack next week and I hope to have some photos to post.

On a side note the LS9 based engines have oil squirters that shoot oil on the bottom of the piston to cool the pistons. Thomson modifies the LS7 block to add the piston squirters. He did a lot of testing to sort out the size and the location of these squirters. This does drive oil temp. Also as the power goes up so do the heat rejection requirements.

On your question on oil line sizes. I’ve been running -10 AN for cooling lines. I have run 12 AN but the 10 AN seems fine. I don’t have the sizes of all of the different coolers, sometimes it is hard to get the heat rejection rates or to know what you need without just testing it.

Hope that helps

Mark

[Gandalf]

Hey Mark, et all; thanks for the awesome detailed info on topics that inevitably come up for many of us both during and after an initial build. It's great to have good, experienced, first-hand, engineering-driven info like this. I really hope you have time to capture some of this for your next book :-)

G.

[ironworks]

It is amazing how much more complicated this get with every extra horsepower. All the heat you have to deal with is amazing.

When I helped out on a Turbo drag car that was running high 6 second passes. We would put 40 lbs of ice in an aluminum 20 gallon fuel cell and water to air intercooler and in one 1/4 mile pass you would have luke warm bath water. 4 10lbs bags of ice in a quarter mile.

That just goes to show how much work building a big Hp road race car is and why most big race teams don't run huge power.

Thanks for the insight Mark, I feel like I can go home for the day after I learned something. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[parsonsj]

I have less data on the trans but while I'm at it I add one. If someone is not going 10/10ths then the extra cooler are not needed. I overheat the transmission in my Z06 in about 15 minutes (Sebring, Homestead). It's the current limiting factor on my car on track days. Packaging the coolers are hard to do, but they are absolutely required.

[preston]

When you quote your oil temps where are you measuring it - before or after it enters the engine ?

Are you water/oil coolers plumbed to the cold or hot side of the radiator ?

What is your airflow path for the rear mounted coolers ? I have mounted them in the tail panel before that seems like a low pressure area but I have heard you can actually get reversed air flow in there if you have a somewhat "open" trunk like I do. Where do you pick up your intake air for rear mounted coolers ?

[Stielow]

I finally got the Anvil parts.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4509_zps56e07723.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4514_zps17af7d17.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4505_zps0aa24acc.jpg

The fenders, inner fender wells, front valance, and hood saves approx. 125 lbs.

I can also fit a 11 inch wide front wheel!

Nice well made parts that fit well.

Mark

[GregWeld]

Okay -- so how you going to work that in the paint scheme! No friggin' way you can cover those parts up!!


:thumbsup:

[kwhizz]

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :cheering:

[camcojb]

Nice well made parts that fit well.

Mark
told 'ya! :unibrow:

[Stielow]

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4516_zpseff93e33.jpg

Matt has the exhaust cut outs done

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4520_zpsf99eb369.jpg

The carbon rear bumper is crazy light. Looks cool also.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4532_zps45f7a89e.jpg

[badmatt]

Mark, I say you paint this one a super dark grey, leave the front end bare and tint the clear coat to make it subtle...

Just a thought..

Matt

Oh and the discussion in this thread is worth a lot of money to some students.

[fleetus macmullitz]

I finally got the Anvil parts.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4509_zps56e07723.jpg

The fenders, inner fender wells, front valance, and hood saves approx. 125 lbs.


Mark

Have them Dutch Boys make it look like metal and everyone here will keep the weight savings a secret. :unibrow:

[Cris@JCG]

I was @ Anvil last week & saw this parts in person.. Super light! Nice to see them fit up on a car.. What size of tire will you be able to run on the front?

[KPC67]

look like some seriously good quality pieces right there.

[Rybar]

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :cheering: x 2 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[HMA]

Awesome build once again, I am going to have to take a look at reinforcing my quadralink panhard mount like that too.

[CarlC]

First Thomson 427SC engine was built and run way back in 2008. This was for his Pontiac Solstice and utilized LSX block, LS7 heads and Harrop 2300SC. Engine made 990+ crank HP with an aggressive cam, and dropped to 850 crank HP with milder cam as installed in car. After over 100 dyno pulls and 5000+ miles installed in car, engine was disassembled and all parts blueprinted / inspected for wear. All looked great. Keep in mind this was never used for road-race or extended high duty cycle use, so powertrain cooling was never an issue.

At same time this was ongoing, Thomson was developing a twin-turbo LSX generating 2000+ HP. Original engine was 440 CID and dyno testing reveled that after few pulls, crank bearings were distressed, and had they not been coated bearings, a bearing failure would have been likely. Issue was traced to crank deflection under load, so stroke was shortened (increased overlap of throws and mains) to increase strength. Engine then completed 150 full power pulls on dyno (2058 HP average) and subsequently disassembled. All bearings looked like new.

Fast-forward to today:

Based on these and countless other engine builds, testing and further development, Thomson 427SC engines have proven themselves robust even under extreme racing type usage (Mark's cars being one of the most aggressive test beds used). We continually refine and improve package based on knowledge gained over each build and test data. This includes not only hardware selection, but assembly clearances, powertrain cooling requirements and calibration refinement.

Mark has said on many occasions that not only are the Thomson 427SC engines the most powerful he has ever utilized in his builds, they have also been the most reliable and driveable as well. And hard to dispute the results.

Not sure if this directly answers your question as we lack the technology to measure oil film thickness, but empirical data based on many, many engines supports where we are today (with headroom to grow:unibrow: ).

It does Mike, thank you. I dabble in heavy industrial applications but usually dealing with the rolling element vs. babbit side. The proper selection of the lubricant type, delivery systems, cooling, filtering, structure rigidity, etc. are all very similar.

In the end, the rubber meeting the road will flesh out the weaknesses. Thanks for sharing.

[Rick D]

Lookin great Mark! Question do you plan to have this one out emailer this year then Mayem last year?? Or will it be another one test & tune and off to Vegas?

[Stielow]

Lookin great Mark! Question do you plan to have this one out emailer this year then Mayem last year?? Or will it be another one test & tune and off to Vegas?

Not sure yet. I'm still tired from SEMA this year. I'm toying with the idea of getting this car out early this season less paint. Might make is easier to tune and change things that need to be modified. Flat black and raw carbon could look cool for a few events.

Someone asked tire size on the front. I’m not sure yet. I need to evaluate some of new tires due to my ability to run a bigger tires in the front and back. Tires are “black magic” bigger is not always faster. “It is not the size of the dog in the fight it is the fight in the dog”. Due to the changes in this car over Mayhem and Red Devil we will need to rebalance the car once we settle in on tires. If all goes to plan this car should be faster than the other cars.

Brian Thomson is scheming on making even more power. We have some new parts to test that may make a bit more power. I’m not sure we need more power but it can’t hurt…

I really enjoy the events I can get to and I don’t want to add too much change into this car so I can’t get it done by the middle of summer.

[WSSix]

Man those CF pieces look great. When you do paint it, I'd find a way to show off that the panels are CF. Maybe make it part of an accent stripe or something. In the meantime, going flat black and CF for a few events sounds badass also. Gives it that hardcore test mule/race car in development look.

[Spiffav8]

Looks like you are going for super light weight. Maybe no paint or the bare minimum is the way to go. It'll be wicked no matter how the exterior looks.

[214Chevy]

Go black Mark!:thumbsup: Don't know if you've ever done a black car. I've seen grey with Mule, red with Red Witch and Red Devil, silver with Mayhem. I know you've done many cars. Since this car is Camaro XV. Kind of an ode to Camaro X with a Roman numeral name so to speak, but totally opposite in terms of power, weight, etc, then it should be opposite in looks too. So, I know "X" was white, make "XV" black. Then the carbon fiber would just pop with a black body. :hail:

[Stielow]

Go black Mark!:thumbsup: Don't know if you've ever done a black car. I've seen grey with Mule, red with Red Witch and Red Devil, silver with Mayhem. I know you've done many cars. Since this car is Camaro XV. Kind of an ode to Camaro X with a Roman numeral name so to speak, but totally opposite in terms of power, weight, etc, then it should be opposite in looks too. So, I know "X" was white, make "XV" black. Then the carbon fiber would just pop with a black body. :hail:

Thanks for the input. But I'll NEVER have a black car. They look great when someone elso owns them and cleans them. If I had a black car it will be matt black. :) Talk to Joe and Paul. I'd ruin a black car rock chips and swirl marks all over it... LOL

Mark

[Sieg]

Matte Fathom Green with the graphics being the exposed gloss carbon could be interesting. No matter the color or graphics I like the direction of this build........keep the pedal down. :thumbsup:

[214Chevy]

Thanks for the input. But I'll NEVER have a black car. They look great when someone elso owns them and cleans them....I'd ruin a black car rock chips and swirl marks all over it... LOL

Mark

Funny thing is I feel the same way. Black is beautiful when it's clean, but I'm like you, I would ruin it. I would not keep it clean. I like black on someone elses car.

[dunnjun]

Not to mention, black car in dead of summer on asphalt would need a killer Air conditioner, and a cool suit. The car is looking great Mark! Those carbon parts sure fit good. Any guesses at finished weight? I'll guess 3,000 lbs. :cheers: looking forward to seeing it run at Motorstate! :thumbsup:

[dontlifttoshift]

I think I am the only one that doesn't care what color you paint it......

11" wheel in the front?....305/30-19:thumbsup: Hobaugh ran very close to you with much less power, that has to be in the back of your mind. I understand the engineering behind "bigger tires are not always faster" but isn't grip king?

[preston]

I'm curious what those Anvil parts actually weigh. I believe they are 125 lbs lighter than a totally stock setup, but did you run full steel hoods and inner fenders before ?

Anyway if you happen to weigh them let us know. I agree the fit is fantastic, just don't expect that out of aftermarket or composite parts, put the two together and to have that nice of a fit is amazing.

also, do you measure oil temp before or after it goes through the engine ?

[redfire69]

New parts looks great! I've been thinking about going with grand sport style stripes or some other way to show them off as well.

[Flash68]

Flat black and raw carbon could look cool for a few events.



Could?? WOULD! :thumbsup:

Any guesses at finished weight? I'll guess 3,000 lbs.

I'd add a couple hundred more to that for my guess.

[Sales@Dutchboys]

Thanks for the input. But I'll NEVER have a black car. They look great when someone elso owns them and cleans them. If I had a black car it will be matt black. :) Talk to Joe and Paul. I'd ruin a black car rock chips and swirl marks all over it... LOL

Mark

Those Carbon Parts look great Mark, Looks like Anvil did their homework on them!:thumbsup:

I'm not usually a white person..but in Marks case..and how hard he is on a nice new paint job lol. I think its a pretty good idea. I really like something like this Camaro. With the carbon strip exposed up the middle, front the header,hood and wiper panel.

[clill]

Just stop it !!!!

[GregWeld]

Just stop it !!!!




I see another paint job in your future.....

[Stielow]

Those Carbon Parts look great Mark, Looks like Anvil did their homework on them!:thumbsup:

I'm not usually a white person..but in Marks case..and how hard he is on a nice new paint job lol. I think its a pretty good idea. I really like something like this Camaro. With the carbon strip exposed up the middle, front the header,hood and wiper panel.

I think we'll paint it deep gloss black... and I'll drop it off to the VanNus's to fix one a month.....:willy:

Just stop it !!!!

Murray Pfaff is doing some renderings soon, so it will firm up in the next few months. I may do something other than white.

I worked on the mirrors today. I need to convert the remote adjuster to just a manual set up. The carbon "bullet" mirrors look cool in carbon.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4541_zpsa633a88c.jpg

Mark

[Track Junky]

How about garnet red with a matt black hood and header panel surrounded with a matt black pinstripe? And then add a set of satin black GA3R's. :unibrow:

Seen this on a new model Camaro at a local dealership and it looked sweet!!

[JohnC]

Those Carbon Parts look great Mark, Looks like Anvil did their homework on them!:thumbsup:

I'm not usually a white person..but in Marks case..and how hard he is on a nice new paint job lol. I think its a pretty good idea. I really like something like this Camaro. With the carbon strip exposed up the middle, front the header,hood and wiper panel.


That's cool, Paul. I thought of that scheme too. Iconic Z/28 rally stripes would expose all three panels as well.

It will be bitchin no matter what:thumbsup: Can't wait to see the rendering..

[rallystyle]

with all the weight loss stuff your putting on i am surprised you dont have a autorad on it. not sure what the weight differance would be but at least it would be off the front of the car.

[syborg tt]

Those Carbon Parts look great Mark, Looks like Anvil did their homework on them!:thumbsup:

I'm not usually a white person..but in Marks case..and how hard he is on a nice new paint job lol. I think its a pretty good idea. I really like something like this Camaro. With the carbon strip exposed up the middle, front the header,hood and wiper panel.

Paul that is one of my favorite paint jobs - Flat White rocks

however flat black is cool

[DEIGuy38]

I know a guy that had a set of carbon fiber doors for a 69 laying around. SO light you could pick it up with one finger. Don't know if you could put windows in them though.

[Ummgawa]

Hey Mark, save yourself some $$, smooth out the body and have the car wrapped in CF looking adhesive. A CF 69 Camaro might look cool....might. Problem might come if you are hauling butt and it comes off. Folks might think you went so fast you outran your paint job.

By the way, thanks for all the info. This has been as good a thread as I have read here. Course, I don't get out much.:D

[Roberts68]

Vinyl Car Wraps are not to be overlooked and might lend themselves well to Marks style of driving. The OneLap Camaro has done wraps hasn't it? Were there issues with adhesion there?

Doing a Carbon Fiber "look" base with graphics over could be a cool look on a '69, but it is an "import" trend:( .

Mark has never been shy about painting over CF parts before so I won't hold my breath about leaving them nekkid just to show off that he has CF on his car.

I would propose something in a nostalgic graphic/stripe theme... maybe a homage to Baldwin Motion or Yenko 427 Supercars is due since Mark is using the Thomson 427SC motors now? These cars are proving to win not just Supercar but "Ultimate Streetcar" status... :bow:
:D

I will echo all the comments of appreciation for the information flow from this level of build. Sincerely, Thanks to all of you making such vast contributions of knowledge.

[Sales@Dutchboys]

What are you guys trying to do, put me out of buisness!?? Lol I agree somewhat with the wrap. Mark drives his cars like rentals. Which is cool. I really enjoy seeing a all around quality built car out flogging it out on the track.
A wrap would be a lot better than this flat black nonsense! Lol:willy:
Whatever will be cool I'm looking forward to seeing what Murry will design. I'm sure it will be awesome.

[Sieg]

What are you guys trying to do, put me out of buisness!?? Lol Or diversify your profit opportunities? :D

[Sonar Chief]

I will echo all the comments of appreciation for the information flow from this level of build. Sincerely, Thanks to all of you making such vast contributions of knowledge.

:hail: :hail: Could not have said that any better!

[wiedemab]

What are you guys trying to do, put me out of buisness!?? Lol I agree somewhat with the wrap. Mark drives his cars like rentals. Which is cool. I really enjoy seeing a all around quality built car out flogging it out on the track.
A wrap would be a lot better than this flat black nonsense! Lol:willy:
Whatever will be cool I'm looking forward to seeing what Murry will design. I'm sure it will be awesome.

I think you should just rough it up with a grinder and Rhino Line it! :P

In all seriousness. I am really looking forward to seeing this project unfold.

[Roberts68]

I think you should just rough it up with a grinder and Rhino Line it! :P

Careful what you wish for with an Engineer. That suggestion made me think of the aerodynamic advantages dimples bring to a golf ball... or the rough surface shark suits that broke records in Olympic swimming or coatings used in Americas' Cup.

I'm not even an engineer I just interact with them from time to time.;)

How good are the Dutch boys at "intentional denting to improve wind drag coefficient" techniques?:lol:

[Sparks67]

Those Carbon Parts look great Mark, Looks like Anvil did their homework on them!:thumbsup:

I'm not usually a white person..but in Marks case..and how hard he is on a nice new paint job lol. I think its a pretty good idea. I really like something like this Camaro. With the carbon strip exposed up the middle, front the header,hood and wiper panel.

Actually, a pearl white might be a better option. Mark could still have stripes as well, but in Carbon Fiber. Well, here is a link of Lamborghini in Pearl White and carbon fiber interior.

http://www.gothamdreamcars.com/new-york-city/lamborghini-lp640-rental.htm#


Going to chip regardless of the color.

Jeff

[Z10ROD]

Great Thread:lateral:

[clill]

Ha !!! I want to see Mark put Pearl on a car. Nothing looks better than a beat up Pearl paint job.

[Sparks67]

Ha !!! I want to see Mark put Pearl on a car. Nothing looks better than a beat up Pearl paint job.

Just use a paint protection kit, like Xpel. No one notice it.

[Wissing72]

The "frozen" colors that are coming out look pretty cool. Mostly just a flat clear... Just sayin' my .02

[kwhizz]

Paint it the Tri-Stage Corvette Burgandy...........LOL

[GregWeld]

I'm so confused.....

[BonzoHansen]

The "frozen" colors that are coming out look pretty cool. Mostly just a flat clear... Just sayin' my .02

oh god no. his cars are driven and get chips and swirls. and it's too trendy. Mark sets trends, he doesn't follow them! Might was well go with the color shifting crud they seem to paint every 4th fox body with.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Forget all the color talk, let's see more build pictures.

[WILWAXU]

I'm so confused.....Me too.. maybe there should be another thread on "debate Mark's color choice" ;)

[Z10ROD]

I'm knida curious how you are going to attach the grill to that lower valance
Ideas ?? I am interested in the CF because of the bumper and spoiler?

[coolwelder62]

Why don't we start a pool.We will all chip in $5 bucks and who ever gets the color right wins the pool.Then the winner donate's the money St.jude's.:thumbsup:

[Wissing72]

oh god no. his cars are driven and get chips and swirls. and it's too trendy. Mark sets trends, he doesn't follow them! Might was well go with the color shifting crud they seem to paint every 4th fox body with.

I hear that I was more than anything, just throwing it into the mix. I didn't want to get left out of the opinion section... LOL:lol: That color shift was cool for about a min. until everybody had to do it:faint:


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Why don't we start a pool.We will all chip in $5 bucks and who ever gets the color right wins the pool.Then the winner donate's the money St.jude's.

That is a good idea. I think there would be alot of people on board! would it be a "pay-pal" type of deal?

[redfire69]

I'm knida curious how you are going to attach the grill to that lower valance
Ideas ?? I am interested in the CF because of the bumper and spoiler?

There are no provisions to attach the lower valance to a stock grill. On my car I'm making up brackets to connect the lower grill to the rad support structure.

[GRob]

Looks fantastic. Very nice as usual Mark. :thumbsup:

[MattG]

There are new tires out for 2013 so I'm revisiting my tire sizes. I have room to go with a 18 X 11 front wheel and a 18 X 13 rear. I could also push to 19s. I need to test a few tires and see what works out.

Mark

Mark,

Just wondering if you could expand on what new tires are coming out this year...I am almost ready for tires, and would like something new other than the typical BFG's and such.

Matt

[Z10ROD]

Ron
so does the bottom edge of the grill fit behind the bumper??
could you panel bond an L bracket on the back side??

Thanks Rod

[redfire69]

Ron
so does the bottom edge of the grill fit behind the bumper??
could you panel bond an L bracket on the back side??

Thanks Rod

Hey Rod, The anvil valance integrates the bumper and valance all in one part, so the grill fits behind it fine. The grill must actually be installed before the lower valance. You could bond brackets directly to the valance to attach to the grill. It might be difficult bolting them together since you would have to do this from under the car behind the grill. Ron

[GRob]

Mark,

Just wondering if you could expand on what new tires are coming out this year...I am almost ready for tires, and would like something new other than the typical BFG's and such.

Matt

Just guessing here, but there are new tires for the Gen V Viper out (355 rears!) and the new Corvette will probably have new gen tires as well.

[Stielow]

A couple updates:

I reworked the Anvil Mirrors so I can mount them on the car this week. I used the mechanism out of some old 2nd Gen Fcar mirrors. I had to rework the driver’s side to get rid of the remote adjustment. The Anvil parts have no way to mount the so I made aluminum inserts to mount them.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4547_zpsec5ebfff.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4549_zps7289b6f3.jpg

Matt replaces the wrinkled quarter panel with an OE gauge sheet metal. We cut the gills out of a stock quarter to get a crisper stamping. When Matt is done you won't be able to tell we replaced it.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/Clinton-20130109-001922_zpsdb798f99.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/Clinton-20130109-001932_zpse169e578.jpg

OK now you can get back to debating the color.....

Mark

[WSSix]

Green! Because everyone will be envious of the car. :D

[carbuff]

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4547_zpsec5ebfff.jpg


Mark,

Did you glue the mirrors to these aluminum brackets, or are they attached with hardware?

Compared to the size of the screws that held those things on originally, I don't think you have to worry about those flying off any time soon... :cheers:

Thanx!

[GregWeld]

Bryan -

Engineers don't "glue" things ---- they BOND stuff together.


:lol: :lol:

[carbuff]

Ha! True dat... Guess that's why I'm an EE and not an ME or CE. :)

It really does look like 'glue' in that picture I quoted though. ;)

[frojoe]

Hey! alu-alu or carbon-carbon, hell even carbon-alu can bond together so strongly that the carbon epoxy could splinter or the alu could bend before the bonded joint fails! Pretty impressive stuff!

[Sieg]

Honda F1 trans case and control arms with titanium suspension bosses. :thumbsup:

http://hooniverse.com/wp-content/gallery/honda-f1-car/honda-f1-private.jpg

[GregWeld]

I like Marks mirrors better. :D

[Richio1]

I like Marks mirrors better. :D

Me too :D

[Sieg]

I like Marks mirrors better. :D
:thumbsup: As do I, but in the spirit of engineering within Mark's builds F1 technology does trickle down. Their engineering use to be a dream, now it's obtainable. :yes:

You should consider sponsoring him so we could see what numbers he could post with a 2,500 lb. Gen 1. :rofl:

[Stielow]

Bryan -

Engineers don't "glue" things ---- they BOND stuff together.


:lol: :lol:



I used 3M Panel Bonding adhesive. Great stuff easy to use and a long working time. I needed to fill some gaps so it is also fairly thick.
I’m just working on little stuff while the car is at Sled Alley. It all takes time and if I can get some of the small sub-system parts done the assembly will go much faster.

I had a very good friend tell me, if you get one thing done everyday on your project you will finish your car . If it is just ordering a small part it is forward progress. You eat an elephant one bite at a time…..

Mark

[garickman]

Mark,

Any more work on your oil tanks and dry sump system. I would love to see how you package everything and see how you are going to make the oil fill and dip stick. Amazing work as usual! It is an art form to see how you engineer a car instead of "just building it". Thanks for sharing some of your knowledge.:thumbsup:

[OLDFLM]

The difference between "slick" and "Stielow"...

http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv273/OLDFLM/CFMirrors.jpg

http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv273/OLDFLM/CFPassengerMirror.jpg

I had my stock mirrors dipped in hydro CF for a similar look... but not nearly as sexy as the real deal! :thumbsup:

[formula88]

Some project updates:

Mark modifies the passenger side of the subframe cross member to provide clearance for the AC compressor.
http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p603/67CamaroLS7/Camaro%20XV/XV_1_zps8190844c.jpg

This requires rebuilding the engine mount pad and provides an good opportunity to improve vehicle refinement.
4th gen F-car OE engine mounts are being incorporated to reduce the noise and vibration over the aftermarket poly offerings.
http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p603/67CamaroLS7/Camaro%20XV/DSC_6710_zps633c533b.jpg

[KPC67]

I know it was mentioned somewhere in red devils thread, but what acc drive do you use Mark?
I like the ac compressor tucked underneath as well.
Nice work on the fire wall and oil tank guys. :bow:

[randy]

with the rear end lowered to a nice tucked stance were you ever concerned about hittting the bump stops? Im very very close on my 67 quadralink

[Vegas69]

Some project updates:

Mark modifies the passenger side of the subframe cross member to provide clearance for the AC compressor.
http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p603/67CamaroLS7/Camaro%20XV/XV_1_zps8190844c.jpg

This requires rebuilding the engine mount pad and provides an good opportunity to improve vehicle refinement.
4th gen F-car OE engine mounts are being incorporated to reduce the noise and vibration over the aftermarket poly offerings.
http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p603/67CamaroLS7/Camaro%20XV/DSC_6710_zps633c533b.jpg

I like the idea of utilizing a factory mount for less harmonic transfer into the chassis. That's one of the things I had thought of after building mine.:thumbsup:

[Steve68]

I have always planned on using modified rubber mounts to reduce vibration and engine noise into the interior of the car,

good idea!!

[NvrDun71]

Hey Mark was curious which AC bracket you use to mount the V/A compressor and still work with the GM ls9 front drive?

[Stielow]

Hey Mark was curious which AC bracket you use to mount the V/A compressor and still work with the GM ls9 front drive?

The Concept One LS9 set up works great!

http://www.lsxtv.com/news/ls9-powered-69-camaro-gets-concept-one-pulley-treatment/

Mark

[NvrDun71]

The Concept One LS9 set up works great!

http://www.lsxtv.com/news/ls9-powered-69-camaro-gets-concept-one-pulley-treatment/

Mark

Thank you Sir, Looks like a nice setup! Appreciate you pushing the envelope and recruiting companies like this to step up on new products! :bow:

[sixnina]

Mark,
Are you going to continue to run Abs on this one too?
Shane

[Stielow]

Mark,
Are you going to continue to run Abs on this one too?
Shane

Yes I mounded the ABS module today so I plan on using it.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Clinton-20130120-000162_zpsd1e268b1.jpg

[tubbed69]

Hello Mark,great work as always,I like the idea of moving the fuse box and harness coming thru the firewall and curios where your mounting it because I was wanting to do that to mine,thanks.

[next69]

Please post a finished image of the subframe with the compressor and engine mount in place. Keep up the good work.

[Ron in SoCal]

Best part is the true 'car guy' logo

[Sieg]

One thing for certain, Mark's builds never get a chance to rust. :thumbsup:

[redsand]

reading your book again and in a caption you mention that dse was selling rolling stands for the body. I gave them a call and I think they thought I was nuts?... Was it a different vendor that provided the body dolly with rollers?

Thanks

[Vince@Meanstreets]

yeah, I think he likes to do that to people. With his suggestion, I called the GM engineering division manager looking for "talent in a can" and he told me to go pound salt. :lol:

j/k, I think he might have been referencing that they had them.

Easy to make, cheap too.

[RussMurco]

Yes I mounded the ABS module today so I plan on using it.
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Clinton-20130120-000162_zpsd1e268b1.jpg
I can't wait to find out how you calibrated this set-up!

[Sparks67]

Hello Mark,great work as always,I like the idea of moving the fuse box and harness coming thru the firewall and curios where your mounting it because I was wanting to do that to mine,thanks.

I am not sure on Mark's plans to relocate the fuse box and harness, but back in 1987. My fuse box/bulkhead was corroded, but there was no rewiring kits or factory fuse boxes available. So, Ron Francis had developed a street Rod fuse box. I rewired my car and relocated the fuse box to the glove box.

Now you have plenty of companies that sell kits, so you can relocate the fuse box to other locations on the car. I believe Twister had it relocated in the trunk, with AAW kit. I chose the ISIS system, which gives me more flexibility on the wiring of my car. Your fuse box location should be based on your car and it should be easily accessible to you.

Jeff

[tubbed69]

thanks,I seen where the firewall was welded up and I have the AAW kit and may move it,thanks again for your help

[Kenny]

The Mule had a oil to water oil cooler built into the end tank of a Griffin rad. It held the oil temp down to under 250F for 3-5 laps. The turbos drive a lot of heat into the oil. One issue I have found is some of the older gauges don’t read high enough for synthetic oils. Redline has told me there engine oils are good to 325F. The Mule gauge pegged at 250F so we were shutting off early. Jackass has a relatively stock LS9 in it and it has no cooling issues on track with its Ron Davis rad with an oil to water oil cooler built into it. Red Devil runs a stock LS9 oil to water oil cooler mounted to the side of the engine. Once we had that car fully tuned up it would over temp the oil and the water in 5 laps on a 90 degree day. On Mayhem I upped the rad and moved the trans and diff coolers to the back of the car. In a 5 lap session the water temp was great and the oil temp is getting marginal. That oil cooler is built into the rad as a oil to water cooler.

On Camaro XV we upper the rad size even more with a custom core from Dewitt. I met with C&R rad at SEMA and they steered me to a larger 13 plate oil to water oil cooler that should keep my oil temp good. I have opened up the front of the car with the new Anvil front clip. I’m using my vented hood again to help move air through the rad. Dewitt is also making me a one off intercooler heat exchanger that will nest into the cooling stack to maximize core face and air flow. On Red Devil, Mayhem and Camaro XV I’ve ran a very large powerful cooling fan. It is a 20 inch dia Caddy SRX Turbo fan what pulls 850W. I like oil to water coolers because it heat the oil then cools the oil. It also makes a very clean installation. Dewitt is finishing the cooling stack next week and I hope to have some photos to post.

On a side note the LS9 based engines have oil squirters that shoot oil on the bottom of the piston to cool the pistons. Thomson modifies the LS7 block to add the piston squirters. He did a lot of testing to sort out the size and the location of these squirters. This does drive oil temp. Also as the power goes up so do the heat rejection requirements.

On your question on oil line sizes. I’ve been running -10 AN for cooling lines. I have run 12 AN but the 10 AN seems fine. I don’t have the sizes of all of the different coolers, sometimes it is hard to get the heat rejection rates or to know what you need without just testing it.

Hope that helps

Mark Have you considered making a portion of the radiator into an air to air oil cooler? The reasoning is that on some of the endurance race engines I produced used only half the original radiator area for coolant and the same amount of area as an oil cooler. What we found is that we were still able to keep cylinder head temps under control while dramatically increasing engine life and reliability while allowing for tighter ring side clearance and using narrower rings with no loss in reliability. Valvesprings that would fail after 3-4 races would last all season with oil temps at 180-190° instead of 250-260°, and they would only get freshened up because the engine got torn down in the off season. We no longer had problems with rocker shaft or pin seizures, or hydrodynamic issues running a considerably lighter oil.
The original thinking on my part was that synthetic oil was good to X° so as long as it stayed below that....... That was wrong thinking. Turns out that when it comes to metallurgical strength of piston and valvespring materials, cooler is way better. Keep in mind that 5w20 at 190° has the same viscosity as 15w50 at 270° and the protection is not better with heavier oil when it comes to the EP package. I know that you have enough of a grasp on tribology to deduce all the other advantages. The same held true for differentials and transmissions....... less/lighter oil always equaled more power and lower temps improved durability. I found that 180° was sufficient for moisture evaporation in the crankcase, and 140-ish was awesome for clutch plate life in auto trans and clutch posi units. Just some food for thought

[Vegas69]

It wouldn't work anywhere but a road course Kenny. Idling around in traffic on a hot day is a challenge as well.

I also like the oil to water heat exhchanger for the reasons Mark stated. I found that it didn't work well with my car at only 660 hp. (Big Block) The air to oil cooler made a big difference over the water to oil exchanger.

Mark, what about a large air cooler with a removable shroud or plumbed with ducting and a servo motor?

[Kenny]

It wouldn't work anywhere but a road course Kenny. Idling around in traffic on a hot day is a challenge as well.

I also like the oil to water heat exhchanger for the reasons Mark stated. I found that it didn't work well with my car at only 660 hp. (Big Block) The air to oil cooler made a big difference over the water to oil exchanger.

Mark, what about a large air cooler with a removable shroud or plumbed with ducting and a servo motor? We kind of found the opposite to be true. I was putting out quite a bit more power per cu/in NA than this build with a blower, and the air to oil worked best. The thing about using a thinner oil at reduced temps meant it did not have to be heated by the engine because of the flow rates at lower temps. Our 5w20 oil lasted much longer at lower temps without breaking down, than hotter 20/50 race oil. Keep in mind that the coolant basically keeps combustion temps under control and cools the oil by cooling surfaces that the oil contacts. Virtually all the cooling of critical parts is done through the oil, which makes the coolant a middle man of sorts.... just using a fairly small portion of the radiator area for the cooler. We kept our head temps at about 230° for best power and the ability to keep it stabilized. The cooler oil greatly reduced cooling system load..... I guess I am kind of pushing this idea because oil temps are so critical to component life.... I'll stop it now:D
http://image.circletrack.com/f/17296944/ctrp_0409_03_z+aluminum_radiator_selection+fluidyn e_radiator.jpg

Okay.....now......:lol:

[Vegas69]

That isn't half and half but I can see that working great except in cold weather. :thumbsup:

[preston]

Were you cooling the high pressure oil coming out of the pump or after it came out of the engine on its way back to the tank ?

Is there a preference ? Does it make a difference ?

I run a oil/water cooler on the pressure side before it goes into the engine. I like this because as you mentioned it also warms up the oil which is good for a street based car, but I was thinking of adding additional cooling capacity via an air to air. But packaging means I would like to put it on the low pressure side. Thoughts ?

[hp2]

Camaro XV sounds like the perfect project name..
Looking forward to "Quince":thumbsup:
quince=15 in Spanish

I dunno. I saw the thread title and though that XV Motorsports was getting into Camaro parts.

http://www.xvmotorsports.com/

[Kenny]

That isn't half and half but I can see that working great except in cold weather. :thumbsup:
That isn't actually what we used, but I saw it and thought it would be more along the lines of a streeter.
You just have to trust that the thinner unheated oil works better in cold temps than trying to heat thicker oil..... I promise. There would be nothing wrong with a pan heater though.

Were you cooling the high pressure oil coming out of the pump or after it came out of the engine on its way back to the tank ?

Is there a preference ? Does it make a difference ?

I run a oil/water cooler on the pressure side before it goes into the engine. I like this because as you mentioned it also warms up the oil which is good for a street based car, but I was thinking of adding additional cooling capacity via an air to air. But packaging means I would like to put it on the low pressure side. Thoughts ? It really didn't matter as long as we passed sufficient volume to avoid starving the suction side. It really doesn not take long to heat a 0 or 10w oil. I guess if you are cruising in sub zero temps..... We also found power with a particular brand of dino oil over every synthetic we tested. It was the "fake" synthetic, if you will, the "superclean" crude that many companies pass off as synthetic.:thumbsup:

By the way..... you guys do know they make a thermostatically controlled bypass, right?

[next69]

Where are the updates? Its been 10 days, we need a fix.

[Royalworks]

We kind of found the opposite to be true. I was putting out quite a bit more power per cu/in NA than this build with a blower, and the air to oil worked best. The thing about using a thinner oil at reduced temps meant it did not have to be heated by the engine because of the flow rates at lower temps. Our 5w20 oil lasted much longer at lower temps without breaking down, than hotter 20/50 race oil. Keep in mind that the coolant basically keeps combustion temps under control and cools the oil by cooling surfaces that the oil contacts. Virtually all the cooling of critical parts is done through the oil, which makes the coolant a middle man of sorts.... just using a fairly small portion of the radiator area for the cooler. We kept our head temps at about 230° for best power and the ability to keep it stabilized. The cooler oil greatly reduced cooling system load..... I guess I am kind of pushing this idea because oil temps are so critical to component life.... I'll stop it now:D
http://image.circletrack.com/f/17296944/ctrp_0409_03_z+aluminum_radiator_selection+fluidyn e_radiator.jpg

Okay.....now......:lol:


I completely agree with this statement. Back in my Honda days I swore up and down that everyone that was running a turbo needed to install an oil cooler even if it was small. 9.5:1 and 8-10 lbs of boost on a Honda got things hot quick.

I do have a question on that though. How do you control the temp if it gets to cool? Is there a sort of thermostat you are using or are you just letting the coolant take care of that?

[WSSix]

By the way..... you guys do know they make a thermostatically controlled bypass, right?

Kenny already mentioned it.

[Stielow]

Where are the updates? Its been 10 days, we need a fix.

I had Dewitt’s radiator custom make me a radiator core and intercooler core. The cores nest together to make an efficient package. The assembled the cores with tanks and mounted them togther. I had it made 23 inch tall and 24 inched wide to fit a Cadillac SRX turbo fan and shroud. After a long conversation with C&R they supplied a 10 kW oil cooler for the end tank. Dewitt also built in the power steering and transmission coolers. It maybe a bit overkill but I want to get the temps under control on the new car.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/SouthfieldCity-20130124-00024_zpsded7cfa0.jpg

The top two coolers are power steering and transmission. The lower cooler is the engine oil cooler. Using oil to water coolers it will help heat and cool the oil.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/IMG-20130118-00005_zps7ba89dea.jpg

I plan on mounting it as an assembly on Duramax Diesel radiator mounts. This thing is off setting some of my mass savings.

Dewitt did a killer job of building this deal. Having the ability to custom make everything makes a very nice package.

Mark

[Sieg]

Doesn't matter how light it is if it's over-heated and parked. Nice bit of creative engineering. :thumbsup:

[coolwelder62]

Would love to see what the coolers inside the radiator look like.

[1in1969]

Hey Mark, just curious the reason for using the Caddi fan and shroud instead of the Mark VIII fan I've heard so much about. Thanks Shawn

[Sales@Dutchboys]

Looks like they make a nice radiator, Ill have to keep them in mind for future projects. Also nice that they are right here in Michigan.:thumbsup:

[WSSix]

I have a DeWitts radiator on my TA and always recommended them to customers for their Corvettes. Great product and company. :thumbsup:

I'm wondering how available Mark VIII fans are now-a-days. That car hasn't been in production in a long time. I wonder how a C6 fan would compare? We should probably start a different thread so this doesn't get lost. It would be good to compile info on different factory fans especially since they are using Delta controllers now instead of own/off switches.

[Stielow]

Hey Mark, just curious the reason for using the Caddi fan and shroud instead of the Mark VIII fan I've heard so much about. Thanks Shawn

The Mark VIII fan is still a great part but it is a brushed motor and 1990s technology two speed fan. Not sure it’s flow rate but its power requirements on high speed is 25 amps or it’s a 300 W fan. The SRX fan is a brushless PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) fan that is rated at 850W (70 amps at full power). But, it is PWM so it only runs as hard as it needs to based on three inputs to the ECM – Engine Coolant Temp, A/C head pressure and Inlet Air Temp. So just cruising around the fan is very quiet only running as needed. The SRX fan is the biggest most powerful fan in production on a GM vehicle. (Don’t go buy one unless you can PWM it!) A couple manufacturers are working on a controller for it. Also it is huge so it is a very special application to use it. If you are not making over 700 HP and attempting to road race it don’t mess with it.

The other benefit to the large fan and shroud is I get a lot more face area and I can thin my heat exchangers up a bit. This engine rad had a thinner core but 20% more face area than Mayhem. I also uncovered the top 25% of the radiator to help cooling on the first pass of the double pass cooler. With a double pass radiator you can package the engine oil cooler and the other coolers in the driver’s side end tank. The C&R engine oil cooler is HUGE. A 7 lbs stainless steel deal. The guys at C&R are the real deal and helped me size the cooler for my application. They could have built my whole radiator but the Dewitt guys are in MI and can custom build cores. I like to drive over to a shop and work hands on. I’m very happy how it turned out.

Dewitt also made a custom core intercooler radiator to nest in front of the engine radiator. Because Dewitt custom made the cores the cores are the exact same width. Nested in front of the intercooler is Vintage Airs larger condensers. Again more face area to help reduce pressure drop.

With the Anvil lower valance all opened up I’m mounting the A/C and the intercooler low to pick up that air flow. I will also duct all the air though the coolers with close out.

Mark

[Stielow]

[QUOTE= I wonder how a C6 fan would compare? We should probably start a different thread so this doesn't get lost. It would be good to compile info on different factory fans especially since they are using Delta controllers now instead of own/off switches.[/QUOTE]

Red Devil started with a 400W fan Corvette fan and it would not keep up. The SRX is 850 W and has a lot more power. When I swapped fans on Red Devil the temps were more under control.

Mark

[mikels]

By the way..... you guys do know they make a thermostatically controlled bypass, right?

Great source for thermostatically controlled oil bypass:

http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-cooler-sensor-adapters/low-profile-thermostatic-oil-cooler-adapter-for-ls-series-engine-p-209.html

http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-cooler-sensor-adapters/mocal-thermostatic-oil-cooler-adapter-for-ls-series-engine-p-33.html

If cannot package (due to headers, frame, no LS engine...), can use this:

http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-thermostats/mocal-remote-oil-cooler-thermostat-p-55.html

Having oil-to-water heat exchanger also helps warm up the oil after cold start, but still recommend having t-stat to control flow until desired temps are reached.

Nice feature on all these type bypasses is they never block flow to cooler, just open a 'bypass' to allow oil to return to engine prior to reaching temp set point. This allows some flow to always occur through cooler, so by time temp point reached and bypass is closed, not hitting engine with a slug of cold oil.

Dave

[dontlifttoshift]

Since this discussion is already going here, does anyone have any thoughts on this. http://www.frsport.com/Greddy-12401114-Remote-Oil-Filter-Relocation-with-Thermostat_p_12814.html

Remote filter with built in thermostat, seems like it could solve some plumbing/packaging issues.

[WSSix]

From the description is sounds like it's just a thermostat and not a bypass. So as Dave mentioned, you'll hit the engine with the cold oil that was in the cooler when the thermostat opens. Maybe I'm reading it wrong though.

[Flash68]

Here's what a couple people I know are using and C&R says it should work good to help control oil temps with the bypass valve.

http://www.crracing.com/custom-built-products/oil-cooler-bypass-valve

[preston]

Do you feel that the fan power is needed for cooling on the road course ? I always kind of thought that 85+% of the cooling was done at speed and the fan was mostly for < 40 mph. I assume you overheating concerns aren't so much at idle since you keep mentioning the road course and HP.

Any thoughts on that ? IOW, at your average road course speeds do you feel that the fan is still doing significant work ?

[Stielow]

Do you feel that the fan power is needed for cooling on the road course ? I always kind of thought that 85+% of the cooling was done at speed and the fan was mostly for < 40 mph. I assume you overheating concerns aren't so much at idle since you keep mentioning the road course and HP.

Any thoughts on that ? IOW, at your average road course speeds do you feel that the fan is still doing significant work ?

With a 5 inch thick cooling stack the high powered fan is a key part of the cooling package.

Mark

[byndbad914]

The top two coolers are power steering and transmission. The lower cooler is the engine oil cooler. Using oil to water coolers it will help heat and cool the oil.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/IMG-20130118-00005_zps7ba89dea.jpg
Mark - have a few questions regarding this design

1. On the left side with the three integrated coolers in the crossover tank, are there just lines running inside, or are there fins with a line curving through them like the heat exchanger on a refrigerator buried in there?

2. You mention getting an oil cooler that is stainless steel - is there a particular reason that SS was chosen as the material v. aluminum? I would think conduction across and convection through an aluminum part would be better, certainly conduction as SS is a poor thermal conductor.

TIA.

[mikels]

1. On the left side with the three integrated coolers in the crossover tank, are there just lines running inside, or are there fins with a line curving through them like the heat exchanger on a refrigerator buried in there?

2. You mention getting an oil cooler that is stainless steel - is there a particular reason that SS was chosen as the material v. aluminum? I would think conduction across and convection through an aluminum part would be better, certainly conduction as SS is a poor thermal conductor.

TIA.

End tank heat exchangers (oil) is as shown in this link
http://www.crracing.com/custom-built-products/external-heat-exchanger

Other coolers are similar for power steering and trans.

Plate type is much better than tube-and-fin heat exchangers with respect to pressure drop and heat transfer.

One reason for stainless is for strength to withstand 100 PSIG oil pressure without resorting to thick wall sections - which would be required for aluminum.

Dave