Camaro XV

[nicks67ca]

I was able to get in early and check the car out with almost no crowd in the show. I spent a half hour just looking the car over. Mark was even nice enough to say hi and ask me if I had any questions about the car :thumbsup:

Some more impressions of the car
- The Jake Skull on the shifter and rear window are nice touch.
- The car is clean its hard to see all the technology in the car. The hoses, wiring, connectors, are all well hidden.
- The Z28 influence is evident in the front splitter, and rear wing.
- The underside components are invisible they are tucked so high up.

I could have looked at it all day!

http://i62.tinypic.com/2ez4mfs.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/flxd1d.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/b5l8x5.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/eqtrg3.jpg

[ccracin]

Mark,

I really enjoyed reading your feedback on how Hellfire has been performing each step of the way to OPTIMA. I know last week had to be very hectic and you are probably still trying to get your feet back on the ground. When you have an opportunity, can you give those of us that were foolish enough not to go to SEMA your thoughts on the car's performance? :thankyou:

[Lous69]

Mark,

My favorite part of the day Saturday was when I was watching you make a pass on the Autocross. When you finished your run and idled by, a nice gentleman next to me nudged me and said "That's my son". I said "You are Mark's Dad? You must be very proud. He's an engineer's engineer and one heck of a nice guy who doesn't let all of his success go to his head."

As a proud father myself, I could see how proud he was in his eyes and maybe even a little emotional crackle in his voice.

That was a very cool moment.

Lou

[Sieg]

Mark,

My favorite part of the day Saturday was when I was watching you make a pass on the Autocross. When you finished your run and idled by, a nice gentleman next to me nudged me and said "That's my son". I said "You are Mark's Dad? You must be very proud. He's an engineer's engineer and one heck of a nice guy who doesn't let all of his success go to his head."

As a proud father myself, I could see how proud he was in his eyes and maybe even a little emotional crackle in his voice.

That was a very cool moment.

Lou
Very cool Lou :thumbsup:

Don is an absolute gentleman and it was a true honor to meet and converse with with him during the week.

[syborg tt]

Where is the like button.

Lou thanks for sharing this and Mark this has to be the best car to date and I a happy I was able to see it at Sema.

Mark,

My favorite part of the day Saturday was when I was watching you make a pass on the Autocross. When you finished your run and idled by, a nice gentleman next to me nudged me and said "That's my son". I said "You are Mark's Dad? You must be very proud. He's an engineer's engineer and one heck of a nice guy who doesn't let all of his success go to his head."

As a proud father myself, I could see how proud he was in his eyes and maybe even a little emotional crackle in his voice.

That was a very cool moment.

Lou

[Sieg]

Living up to the name........

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-zTHbZ9z/0/L/i-zTHbZ9z-L.jpg

[LS7 Z/28]

Could Mikels or Mark explain why the car has so much un-burnt fuel coming out the exhaust and creating this "hellfire"

I'm not completely familiar with LS engines yet and what and how the computer regulates things, but I'm trying to pick things up.

Generally with an old school carb on a race engine, when you are shooting flames out of the exhaust that's not exactly a good thing. Obviously it's loading up and the carb is running rich, so depending on air temperature etc.. You would change jets in the carb.

I'm just interested to know what's going on here. I looks badass I know that much. I laughed like crazy when I saw a photo of hellfire really flamed up and people were commenting thinking Mark blew it up. Now that was funny.

[66tintop]

Could Mikels or Mark explain why the car has so much un-burnt fuel coming out the exhaust and creating this "hellfire"

I'm not completely familiar with LS engines yet and what and how the computer regulates things, but I'm trying to pick things up.

Generally with an old school carb on a race engine, when you are shooting flames out of the exhaust that's not exactly a good thing. Obviously it's loading up and the carb is running rich, so depending on air temperature etc.. You would change jets in the carb.

I'm just interested to know what's going on here. I looks badass I know that much. I laughed like crazy when I saw a photo of hellfire really flamed up and people were commenting thinking Mark blew it up. Now that was funny.

I'm sure it only happens on decelaration !

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Its common on RPM-MAP based ecus in race applications for the lowest MAP bins to be set at the max vacuum that you can pull while opening the throttle quickly. When you quickly close the throttle quickly at high-load, high-rpm, you can often get the MAP to dip below that value and it will cause a rich condition that produces popping and flames. You can tune it out by spreading out your MAP bins, but it will lower the resolution of your fuel tables in the normal operating range and hence isn't usually done in race applications.

[Flash68]

Mark, I am curious if you think you may revisit this thought for 2015 and/or beyond. :)



I really like the OUSCI event; it is a lot more fun and way easier than One Lap of America. LOL. I gave serious thought on building a C-6 Corvette for the 2012 but I like the Pro-Touring route better. It is where I came from and what I like to do.

Mark

[formula88]

Here's a video from the final road course session (about 1/3 into it).

It gets really wild about two minutes in :D.

Some really sweet driving by all and a great perspective on how hard these guys track their cars.


OuLQF4smprc

[ccracin]

OH MY GOOD GRACIOUS! My office chair was all over the place watching that. I was on the binders way before Mark. And that's just watching the video! LOL Thanks for posting that video, it made my afternoon! :king:

[Sonar Chief]

I was thinking the same thing there .... except my heart was pumping lots, and looking in the mirror there Mark is calm and in control. WOW :king:


Thanks for posting .... I could waist a whole day watching Mark take the fastest line!!!!

[66tintop]

That was an awesome video, could only imagine how well it would work with racing slick tires ! Thanks for sharing ! It sure seems like it pulls like freight train ! Wow !

[formula88]

OH MY GOOD GRACIOUS! My office chair was all over the place watching that. I was on the binders way before Mark. And that's just watching the video! LOL Thanks for posting that video, it made my afternoon! :king:

LOL... I know what you mean. I was watching this last night on the big screen and found myself leaning into each turn!

[mikels]

Its common on RPM-MAP based ecus in race applications for the lowest MAP bins to be set at the max vacuum that you can pull while opening the throttle quickly. When you quickly close the throttle quickly at high-load, high-rpm, you can often get the MAP to dip below that value and it will cause a rich condition that produces popping and flames. You can tune it out by spreading out your MAP bins, but it will lower the resolution of your fuel tables in the normal operating range and hence isn't usually done in race applications.

Controller is GM E67 and is using MAF primary control with parallel speed-density control. So I have seen what you are speaking of, but this is slightly different.

Flames are result of how quickly ramp out of PE (power enrichment) combined with spark control when transitioning from on throttle to off throttle to DFCO (de-acceleration fuel cut-off).

Non-issue from an engine standpoint - from a visual, well, it barks flames on lift-throttle transitions from high airflow.

While there are many changes I can make that could reduce this effect, we haven't had time to revisit cal since last development trips to Gingerman and now OUSCI. That and some of those potential changes would be undesirable such as how quickly power drops when reducing accelerator pedal (@ 950hp, when you lift, you likely really want to reduce power.....)

Mark and I were talking that we've reached point where more power is not likely to result in much improvement of lap times (never thought I'd say that.....). Ability to maintain fluid temps at this power level has been a challenge as well - but Mark is now able to run 20 minute sessions in any ambient with controlled temps and no drop in delivered power.

First 7.0L supercharged engine (for road racing) we did at Thomson's in 2009 made 780hp/830tq. We are now at 950hp/970tq (1010hp/1020tq on E85). Amazing what refinements can bring paying attention to the details.

Dave

[ccracin]

Controller is GM E67 and is using MAF primary control with parallel speed-density control. So I have seen what you are speaking of, but this is slightly different.

Flames are result of how quickly ramp out of PE (power enrichment) combined with spark control when transitioning from on throttle to off throttle to DFCO (de-acceleration fuel cut-off).

Non-issue from an engine standpoint - from a visual, well, it barks flames on lift-throttle transitions from high airflow.

While there are many changes I can make that could reduce this effect, we haven't had time to revisit cal since last development trips to Gingerman and now OUSCI. That and some of those potential changes would be undesirable such as how quickly power drops when reducing accelerator pedal (@ 950hp, when you lift, you likely really want to reduce power.....)

Mark and I were talking that we've reached point where more power is not likely to result in much improvement of lap times (never thought I'd say that.....). Ability to maintain fluid temps at this power level has been a challenge as well - but Mark is now able to run 20 minute sessions in any ambient with controlled temps and no drop in delivered power.

First 7.0L supercharged engine (for road racing) we did at Thomson's in 2009 made 780hp/830tq. We are now at 950hp/970tq (1010hp/1020tq on E85). Amazing what refinements can bring paying attention to the details.

Dave

The development you guys have put into this package is fantastic. Your work and attention to detail is very evident!

Your statement above is all the motivation needed to do an AWD 69! Hint Hint Nudge Nudge Wink Wink!

[Sieg]

Here's a video from the final road course session (about 1/3 into it).

It gets really wild about two minutes in :D.

Some really sweet driving by all and a great perspective on how hard these guys track their cars.


OuLQF4smprc

Dog Fights!

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2ZFgjkj/0/L/i-2ZFgjkj-L.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-wkHKWCj/0/L/i-wkHKWCj-L.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-zbPrFq2/0/L/i-zbPrFq2-L.jpg

This photo was taken at about 5:20 on the video, quick heavy application of mid-range throttle.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-zTHbZ9z/0/L/i-zTHbZ9z-L.jpg

[WSSix]

So how did Mark do overall at the event?

[SSLance]

Here's a video from the final road course session (about 1/3 into it).

It gets really wild about two minutes in :D.

Some really sweet driving by all and a great perspective on how hard these guys track their cars.


OuLQF4smprc



That... was... Awesome...

Thanks for posting. Really nice driving by Mark in an obviously very well prepared car.

[LS7 Z/28]

Mark and I were talking that we've reached point where more power is not likely to result in much improvement of lap times (never thought I'd say that.....

Mark Donohue would be proud!

[PTAddict]

Controller is GM E67 and is using MAF primary control with parallel speed-density control. So I have seen what you are speaking of, but this is slightly different.

Flames are result of how quickly ramp out of PE (power enrichment) combined with spark control when transitioning from on throttle to off throttle to DFCO (de-acceleration fuel cut-off).

Non-issue from an engine standpoint - from a visual, well, it barks flames on lift-throttle transitions from high airflow.

While there are many changes I can make that could reduce this effect, we haven't had time to revisit cal since last development trips to Gingerman and now OUSCI. That and some of those potential changes would be undesirable such as how quickly power drops when reducing accelerator pedal (@ 950hp, when you lift, you likely really want to reduce power.....)

Mark and I were talking that we've reached point where more power is not likely to result in much improvement of lap times (never thought I'd say that.....). Ability to maintain fluid temps at this power level has been a challenge as well - but Mark is now able to run 20 minute sessions in any ambient with controlled temps and no drop in delivered power.

First 7.0L supercharged engine (for road racing) we did at Thomson's in 2009 made 780hp/830tq. We are now at 950hp/970tq (1010hp/1020tq on E85). Amazing what refinements can bring paying attention to the details.

Dave

It really is an amazing accomplishment making this kind of HP, pump gas, thermal management, and totally drivable. Crazy good. All on a production block and oiling system, as well.

Does the E67 ECU have any advantages over the E38 for this kind of application? Also interesting to note that you're running hybrid MAF/Speed Density - SD tuning on those ECUs is a PITA, at least with HP tuners, and I've found no discernable advantage in normally aspirated performance applications (the GM crate motor ECUs all run MAF-only as well). But it may well be that, at this HP level, that extra bit of fine transient control is important?

[PTAddict]

Here's a video from the final road course session (about 1/3 into it).

It gets really wild about two minutes in :D.

Some really sweet driving by all and a great perspective on how hard these guys track their cars.


OuLQF4smprc

Very cool video. Thanks for posting.

The track looks tighter than I expected when I think of LVMS. Seems like it might be less of a "horsepower track" than Spring Mountain?

Interesting to hear how much those Rival street tires squeal under braking and through the turns. Hoosiers don't make that kind of noise unless you're spinning out. Not that I would know :_paranoid

What motor does Maier have in that Mustang of his to be able to almost keep up with you on the straightaways? Seems like a bit more than a 289 with a tune up :)

[glassman]

Very cool video. Thanks for posting.

The track looks tighter than I expected when I think of LVMS. Seems like it might be less of a "horsepower track" than Spring Mountain?

Interesting to hear how much those Rival street tires squeal under braking and through the turns. Hoosiers don't make that kind of noise unless you're spinning out. Not that I would know :_paranoid

What motor does Maier have in that Mustang of his to be able to almost keep up with you on the straightaways? Seems like a bit more than a 289 with a tune up :)

SB2 cup car from what i heard. Great battle.

[GregWeld]

It really is an amazing accomplishment making this kind of HP, pump gas, thermal management, and totally drivable. Crazy good. All on a production block and oiling system, as well.

Does the E67 ECU have any advantages over the E38 for this kind of application? Also interesting to note that you're running hybrid MAF/Speed Density - SD tuning on those ECUs is a PITA, at least with HP tuners, and I've found no discernable advantage in normally aspirated performance applications (the GM crate motor ECUs all run MAF-only as well). But it may well be that, at this HP level, that extra bit of fine transient control is important?




If you got to drive the car on the street.... you'd sell your house and buy a sleeping bag and move into the car if that's what it took to own it or one like it. LOL

Your Grandmother could drive this car home (to Pasadena) and be happy!

[66tintop]

If you got to drive the car on the street.... you'd sell your house and buy a sleeping bag and move into the car if that's what it took to own it or one like it. LOL

Your Grandmother could drive this car home (to Pasadena) and be happy!


I have read that everyone says u suck ! But , I'm going to say , your one lucky bastard ! I'm sure all the rest of those other guys are drooling and tripping on their lower lip ! Me included !

[PTAddict]

SB2 cup car from what i heard. Great battle.

Oof, that explains it. Not exactly an ideal cross country cruiser then. But I'll bet it's a ton of fun on the track.

[PTAddict]

If you got to drive the car on the street.... you'd sell your house and buy a sleeping bag and move into the car if that's what it took to own it or one like it. LOL

Your Grandmother could drive this car home (to Pasadena) and be happy!

Well, I've been trying for a long time now to own one "like it". Problem is, Stielow keeps raising the damn bar :) But I'm having a ton of fun chasing that dream anyway.

[Flash68]

SB2 cup car from what i heard. Great battle.

Come on Mike, really? :twak:

SB2/SB2.2 = Chivy

And that ain't no Chivy. :D

it's a Roush Yates 358... at least it was before the rebuild. Not sure if Mike modified it/stroked it or whatever for the current iteration.

She's a beaut though :thumbsup:

[PTAddict]

Come on Mike, really? :twak:

SB2/SB2.2 = Chivy

And that ain't no Chivy. :D

it's a Roush Yates 358... at least it was before the rebuild. Not sure if Mike modified it/stroked it or whatever for the current iteration.

She's a beaut though :thumbsup:

LOL. Truth is, though, with NASCAR rules the way they are Ford/Chevy/Toyota cup motors are much more alike than not, and all quite different now from production Ford/Chevy/Mopar small blocks. I'm quite sure I couldn't tell them apart by sight.

Would love to hear some video/sound clips of the Maier car too.

[mikels]

It really is an amazing accomplishment making this kind of HP, pump gas, thermal management, and totally drivable. Crazy good. All on a production block and oiling system, as well.

Does the E67 ECU have any advantages over the E38 for this kind of application? Also interesting to note that you're running hybrid MAF/Speed Density - SD tuning on those ECUs is a PITA, at least with HP tuners, and I've found no discernable advantage in normally aspirated performance applications (the GM crate motor ECUs all run MAF-only as well). But it may well be that, at this HP level, that extra bit of fine transient control is important?

E67 is needed for supercharged applications if wanting to maintain the same level of control as OEM. There are 3 MAP sensors (BARO, SC inlet and Manifold) as well as 2 IAT sensors (IAT1 in MAF sensor, IAT2 in manifold after intercoolers) and SC bypass valve control. E38 lacks the I/O capability to run this many sensors and have this level of control on forced induction applications.

MAF sensor allows more precise air measurement as well - when you think about it, speed density calibration is calculating the mass air flow from MAP, displacement and RPM to determine engine operation. Better to measure actual mass flow and redundantly calculate for better control.

Goal all along as we've refined these 7.0L SC engines has been not just power, but driveability, controllability and practicality (OEM part usage where possible for servicing, pump gas). Mark typically autocross's in 1st gear - not many 900+hp engines (well, none that I can think of) have driveability that allows this sort of operation.

We know there are changes that can be made to make more power, but what's the point if you give up the refinement and control? I think Charlie stated he got ~23-24 mpg in Mayhem on PowerTour this year (and I'm sure it wasn't because he 'babied' the car)- all while generating 880hp/815tq. On pump gas.

Anyone who can drive a stick could drive Hellfire - it is truly that easy to drive. Idles @ 750 rpm, pulls from any gear from idle speeds and never carries on in any way. Just be careful when your right foot gets heavy!

I'm a huge forced induction fan - and love turbocharging. But there is no way I can put together a turbo engine that has the same level of refinement and immediate response that we have with this positive displacement SC engine for same power level.

It's great fun making power (and can never have too much - although we are close.... Nah - just need more traction!) - but the fun stops if the package is unreliable, cantankerous to live with or requires unobtainium fuel, etc.

Dave

[Stielow]

E67 is needed for supercharged applications if wanting to maintain the same level of control as OEM. There are 3 MAP sensors (BARO, SC inlet and Manifold) as well as 2 IAT sensors (IAT1 in MAF sensor, IAT2 in manifold after intercoolers) and SC bypass valve control. E38 lacks the I/O capability to run this many sensors and have this level of control on forced induction applications.

MAF sensor allows more precise air measurement as well - when you think about it, mass air calibration is calculating the mass air flow from MAP, displacement and RPM to determine engine operation. Better to measure actual mass flow and redundantly calculate for better control.

Goal all along as we've refined these 7.0L SC engines has been not just power, but driveability, controllability and practicality (OEM part usage where possible for servicing, pump gas). Mark typically autocross's in 1st gear - not many 900+hp engines (well, none that I can think of) have driveability that allows this sort of operation.

We know there are changes that can be made to make more power, but what's the point if you give up the refinement and control? I think Charlie stated he got ~23-24 mpg in Mayhem on PowerTour this year (and I'm sure it wasn't because he 'babied' the car)- all while generating 880hp/815tq. On pump gas.

Anyone who can drive a stick could drive Hellfire - it is truly that easy to drive. Idles @ 750 rpm, pulls from any gear from idle speeds and never carries on in any way. Just be careful when your right foot gets heavy!

I'm a huge forced induction fan - and love turbocharging. But there is no way I can put together a turbo engine that has the same level of refinement and immediate response that we have with this positive displacement SC engine for same power level.

It's great fun making power (and can never have too much - although we are close.... Nah - just need more traction!) - but the fun stops if the package is unreliable, cantankerous to live with or requires unobtainium fuel, etc.

Dave


Professor Mikels has spoken. I don't even mess with it any more I just do what Dave says and it works and hauls a$$....

[PTAddict]

MAF sensor allows more precise air measurement as well - when you think about it, mass air calibration is calculating the mass air flow from MAP, displacement and RPM to determine engine operation. Better to measure actual mass flow and redundantly calculate for better control.
Dave

Thanks again for the detailed response and willingness to share. Those additional E67 sensor inputs make sense - similar actually to what I see with the late model Mustang GT500 tunes we've done, although the Mustangs are messier because of the "torque demand" throttling strategy.

I completely agree with all you said, but I think you might have meant to say that Speed Density calibration is calculating mass air flow from MAP/RPM/displacement? I'd completely agree that a properly calibrated MAF sensor is not only precise, but also provides compensation/insurance against all kinds of other variables that affect air mass (intake manifold heat, intake valve temp, spark variation due to knock retard, etc).

[camcojb]

Here's a video from the final road course session (about 1/3 into it).

It gets really wild about two minutes in :D.

Some really sweet driving by all and a great perspective on how hard these guys track their cars.



Thanks for the video Gordon. :thumbsup:

[mikels]

Thanks again for the detailed response and willingness to share. Those additional E67 sensor inputs make sense - similar actually to what I see with the late model Mustang GT500 tunes we've done, although the Mustangs are messier because of the "torque demand" throttling strategy.

I completely agree with all you said, but I think you might have meant to say that Speed Density calibration is calculating mass air flow from MAP/RPM/displacement? I'd completely agree that a properly calibrated MAF sensor is not only precise, but also provides compensation/insurance against all kinds of other variables that affect air mass (intake manifold heat, intake valve temp, spark variation due to knock retard, etc).

Thanks for catch - corrected my faux pas!

I think most OEM's are using similar strategies for forced induction - it allows much better 'picture' of engine operation and more hooks for control.

OEM software and calibrations calculate injector tip temperature, intake valve temp and many, many other parameters that impact engine operation - all this results in more precise control (and closer operation to the edge while maintaining safe operation).

Dave

[Stielow]

Mark,

My favorite part of the day Saturday was when I was watching you make a pass on the Autocross. When you finished your run and idled by, a nice gentleman next to me nudged me and said "That's my son". I said "You are Mark's Dad? You must be very proud. He's an engineer's engineer and one heck of a nice guy who doesn't let all of his success go to his head."

As a proud father myself, I could see how proud he was in his eyes and maybe even a little emotional crackle in his voice.

That was a very cool moment.

Lou


Lou

Thanks for sharing the story. I'm glad my Dad was there.

Mark

[GregWeld]

Professor Mikels has spoken. I don't even mess with it any more I just do what Dave says and it works and hauls a$$....



Sadly I was unable to confirm.... LMAO

[formula88]

Thanks for the video Gordon. :thumbsup:


Anytime buddy. You helped make it possible :D

[camcojb]

Anytime buddy. You helped make it possible :D
Yeah, I guess I did, huh??!!! :)

[Ns RS]

Sadly I was unable to confirm.... LMAO

I was the driver in that Viper and I can confirm, that thing did haul a$$ but the driver looked slow at first all crunched up against the wheel. boy was I wrong :bump:

[SlowProgress]

This thread is full of "win" on so many levels !!:thankyou:

[PTAddict]

OEM software and calibrations calculate injector tip temperature, intake valve temp and many, many other parameters that impact engine operation - all this results in more precise control (and closer operation to the edge while maintaining safe operation).

Dave

Sorry, but this is BS. According to many of our muscle car era customers, all you need is a box full of carb jets and a timing light :) OK, maybe also a flashlight to inspect plugs.

It is actually amazing to use software like HPTuners or EFILive on a modern ECU. The number of of different aspects of engine/transmission operation that are modeled in these on-board computers is mind boggling, and yet they all make sense when you take the time to understand them.

Sorry to divert the main Camaro XV thread, but I just love this stuff.

Now, if only we could use a computer to tune out the inherent disadvantages in handling/braking/areo of a 69 Camaro!

Scott

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I was the driver in that Viper and I can confirm, that thing did haul a$$ but the driver looked slow at first all crunched up against the wheel. boy was I wrong :bump:

HAAAAA HAAAAAAAA

did ya get a load of the 2x4 on the go pedal?

[GregWeld]

I was the driver in that Viper and I can confirm, that thing did haul a$$ but the driver looked slow at first all crunched up against the wheel. boy was I wrong :bump:



If Mark didn't have a race --- I'd have stopped at the toter - grabbed a couple pairs of skivvies and just kept on driving..... I think I could have made NYC by morning. LOL

[waynieZ]

Mark I tried looking but couldn't find what you used for a tank and pump for the heat exchanger and where you mounted the tank? If you have an idea what page its on I can check it out.
Thanks

[SlowProgress]

Page 88 will get you close. The pump is mechanical, a modification made to the transmission by D & D. Your right though, I don't remember seeing anything regarding the tank/reservoir location ?

[bonecrrusher]

Mark - can you provide any insight on the C6 jake skull logos?

As a big fan of the Tudor racing team - I go to several of there races a year.

I'm not knocking there placement on your car at all - I just thought you'd have some kuddos to the z28 - or something like that.

[waynieZ]

Page 88 will get you close. The pump is mechanical, a modification made to the transmission by D & D. Your right though, I don't remember seeing anything regarding the tank/reservoir location ?


Thanks, now I have a starting point!
No luck

[Stielow]

Mark - can you provide any insight on the C6 jake skull logos?

As a big fan of the Tudor racing team - I go to several of there races a year.

I'm not knocking there placement on your car at all - I just thought you'd have some kuddos to the z28 - or something like that.

I just like them.

Mark

[Sieg]

I just like them.

Mark
So do I! I was eyeballing that shifter knob thinking to myself this is one part on Hellfire that my car's budget would actually allow. :lol:

I'm still amazed at how well Hellfire behaves in a daily driving scenario, well done Sir. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

So do I! I was eyeballing that shifter knob thinking to myself this is one part on Hellfire that my car's budget would actually allow. :lol:

I'm still amazed at how well Hellfire behaves in a daily driving scenario, well done Sir. :thumbsup:




I just hope all these "kudos" are running up the price Charley will have to pay....

[DOOM]

I just hope all these "kudos" are running up the price Charley will have to pay....

Charley!!!!! I think this is your next ride who you bull shizin!!

[Sieg]

I just hope all these "kudos" are running up the price Charley will have to pay....

Did you see him photo cataloging all the rock chip and cone scars after the event Sunday? Obviously collecting negotiating material. :secret:

[GregWeld]

Charley!!!!! I think this is your next ride who you bull shizin!!




I'm not into Pro Touring cars.... If I want to race - I'll run my race cars... if I want to cruise I use my hot rods...

If I only had ONE car - then that would be different... and this would be the type of car I'd want... but to me - they're "tweeners". You can't use this power on the street unless you're self insured like Charley must be... LOL

And I'm not a "collector" so the intrinsic "value" doesn't mean anything to me. If I was in the market -- then it would be a bidding war because I'd want HellFire real bad... the car is so f'n good!

[clill]

You guys all suck..

[camcojb]

Did you see him photo cataloging all the rock chip and cone scars after the event Sunday? Obviously collecting negotiating material. :secret:
Speaking of rock chips...

[ccracin]

Speaking of rock chips...

Calling the Dutchboys! Clean-up on the back straight! :D

[Sieg]

Speaking of rock chips...
I didn't ask Mark but I was less than 20 yards away against the K-wall and he certainly had my attention. I was thinking 'gather it up! gather it up!' as mixing carbon and concrete never works too well. :D

[Sales@Dutchboys]

Yeah......Speaking of rock chips..... lol :willy:

Speaking of rock chips...


I enjoy giving Mark crap about the rock chips. For some reason with Mark it doesn't bother me as bad. Seeing him out on the track using the car and hanging it out without holding back makes it all worth it. We enjoy making awesome paint for our customers. And most of the time I see cars that we have done and they don't get driven very often and used the way that they should.

Marks car is the total package. It preforms awesome on the track without sacrifice in any areas throughout the build. Then you can roll it into a car show and still bring home some awards. :thumbsup:

[KPC67]

Yeah......Speaking of rock chips..... lol :willy:




I enjoy giving Mark crap about the rock chips. For some reason with Mark it doesn't bother me as bad. Seeing him out on the track using the car and hanging it out without holding back makes it all worth it. We enjoy making awesome paint for our customers. And most of the time I see cars that we have done and they don't get driven very often and used the way that they should.

Marks car is the total package. It preforms awesome on the track without sacrifice in any areas throughout the build. Then you can roll it into a car show and still bring home some awards. :thumbsup:

I can see how in some cases beating up on a car that you guys put so much time and love into would bother you, but in this case Mark has put as much time and love into his car; and you can respect the way he drives it.

[RdHuggr68]

I can see how in some cases beating up on a car that you guys put so much time and love into would bother you, but in this case Mark has put as much time and love into his car; and you can respect the way he drives it.

well said :idea:

[camcojb]

Speaking of rock chips...
I think Kyle Tucker one-upped Mark on Sunday... :lol:

[millertime179]

Kyle was just practicing for Baja. :)

[Sieg]

I think Kyle Tucker one-upped Mark on Sunday... :lol:

Kyle got brake checked by two cars ahead due to all the gravel Jake Rozelle had just thrown on the course while trying to keep up with Mark :D:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-mmXRpHb/0/L/i-mmXRpHb-L.jpg

[clill]

Who would do such a thing

[Vince@Meanstreets]

cup holders too? The perfect street car. :snapout:

[Sieg]

Pesky Corvettes......

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-4pF3XJZ/0/XL/i-4pF3XJZ-XL.jpg

[mitch_04]

Mark,
I'm considering pursing an automotive engineering degree after I deploy in August. I was hoping you could recommend a few colleges that excel in that arena, or that automotive manufactures tend to recruit more often from. I tried to send you a PM, but your inbox is full. If you could send me a few recommendations that would be a great help, PM or [email protected].

Thank you,

Mitch

[jimbo]

So, how far a long is the next project?

[hersheys69z]

I would think he must have already started on the next bad ass Camaro.

[wally_245]

Hi Mark, Love your builds.

Earlier in the thread you had built out a fuse panel that was going to be in the trunk, but then I saw later that you had one in the engine bay beside the ECU.

Just wondering if you changed your mind and if so why? I loved the idea of putting it in the trunk, but I could see the additional wiring adding up to quite a bit of weight.

Shawn

[Che70velle]

I would think he must have already started on the next bad ass Camaro.

Let's hope it's a Camaro....

[rickpaw]

Hi Mark, Love your builds.

Earlier in the thread you had built out a fuse panel that was going to be in the trunk, but then I saw later that you had one in the engine bay beside the ECU.

Just wondering if you changed your mind and if so why? I loved the idea of putting it in the trunk, but I could see the additional wiring adding up to quite a bit of weight.

Shawn

It looks like the fuse panel in the engine bay is for the engine, and the one in the trunk is for the car's electrical.

[HEEP]

Let's hope it's a Camaro....

I'd love to see what he would do with a Chevelle.:stirthepot: :peepwall: :secret:

[214Chevy]

I'd love to see what he would do with a Chevelle.:stirthepot: :peepwall: :secret:

Guys bout fell off of their rocker when Mark deviated from the norm and did Mayhem, the 67 Camaro. Also, guys have been waiting and asking if he'd ever do a 2nd gen. If so, at least it would still be a Camaro. So, if he did a Chevelle, everyone would probably think he'd need a mental evaluation. LOL!! But, whatever Mark does, it'll be killer....no doubt.

[Stuart Adams]

Kinda hard to improve what Mark has done with Camaro's. A corvette with Mark's engineering goodies would be cool.

[nicks67ca]

I would love to see a Camaro "Hybrid Supercar"
- 196X Year Camaro
- 3.6 direct injection twin turbo
- Chevrolet Volt electric motor and battery pack
- Stielow magic

I know you can do it Mark!

[Sonar Chief]

AWD Camaro .... if not a 69 how bout a fifth gen AWD?

[OLDFLM]

Another (begging) request for Mark to do a 2nd Gen! :beathorse

[65_LS1_T56]

I'd love to see what he would do with a Chevelle.:stirthepot: :peepwall: :secret:

He did do one!
http://image.hotrod.com/f/8858995+cr1/0312phr_stielow_14_z.jpg

Malitude. Then Jody made it better! :thumbsup:

[RussMurco]

I'd love to see what he would do with a Chevelle.:stirthepot: :peepwall: :secret:

He did one years ago, one of our own still has it!
http://www.lateral-g.net/bernard/malitude%20771b.jpg

[HEEP]

I missed those. I guess I have been under a rock. Any build threads on it? Who owns it now?

Off to find google.

Edit... Google is my friend. So, Mr Camcojb is the proud owner. I'll be over in the corner reading....

[clill]

I sold Malitude years ago and I think it is now in Kentucky.

[Stielow]

So, how far a long is the next project?

Looking the data Hellfire lacks forward bite.

Max Lat about 1.1 G
Max Decel about 1.3 G
Max Accel about .85 G

What to build next? I'm not sure. If I want to play in the OUSCI deal I need to wait for the new rules

I really like Hellfire and '69 Camaros. I think I'll enjoy doing nothing for awhile and fix rock chips......

Looking at the data AWD would fix forward bite. :headspin:

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/LatLong_zps8737453d.jpg

[camcojb]

Looking the data Hellfire lacks forward bit.

Max Lat about 1.1 G
Max Decel about 1.3 G
Max Accel about .85 G

What to build next? I'm not sure. If I want to play in the OUSCI deal I need to wait for the new rules

I really like Hellfire and '69 Camaros. I think I'll enjoy doing nothing for awhile and fix rock chips......

Looking at the data AWD would fix forward bit. :headspin:

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/LatLong_zps8737453d.jpg
Looks like a mushroom cloud... :lol:

[RussMurco]

I really like Hellfire and '69 Camaros. I think I'll enjoy doing nothing for awhile and fix rock chips......


Sounds like a plan, enjoy it for a while!!! :drive:

[hersheys69z]

Hi Mark
I was thinking about putting awd in a 69 Camaro.
Looks like the trailblazer ss system would be the way to go.
I'm sure you would have no problem fabbing up mounts for struts.
Is it possible to have awd and use the new Z/28 struts?
That is what I want to see in the next Stielow Camaro :headspin:

[waynieZ]

Looking the data Hellfire lacks forward bite.



http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/LatLong_zps8737453d.jpg

I thought it was a bug on Hellfire's windshield after a 150 mph straight away!

[Che70velle]

Kinda hard to improve what Mark has done with Camaro's. A corvette with Mark's engineering goodies would be cool.

This is what I was referring to, when I made my comment about hoping its a Camaro...

[dontlifttoshift]

Looking the data Hellfire lacks forward bite.

Max Lat about 1.1 G
Max Decel about 1.3 G
Max Accel about .85 G


That's 0-60 in 3.2 if you could do .85 from a standing start. I'm guessing that sample was from the road course.

Realistically you shook the car down twice(?) before sending it to vegas. I would really like to see you dial the car in, if you can keep it long enough. What can you do about forward acceleration? Spring change, shock tuning, wider wheels, perhaps a taller tire if it doesn't mess with the ABS......they're never finished.

[Stielow]

That's 0-60 in 3.2 if you could do .85 from a standing start. I'm guessing that sample was from the road course.

Realistically you shook the car down twice(?) before sending it to vegas. I would really like to see you dial the car in, if you can keep it long enough. What can you do about forward acceleration? Spring change, shock tuning, wider wheels, perhaps a taller tire if it doesn't mess with the ABS......they're never finished.

It is geeky engineer Friday. The graph below is the tractive effort curve from LVMS. Longitudinal acceleration vs vehicle speed.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Capture_zps8040715d.jpg

The data shows I'm accelerating at about 0.85 G at 60 MPH and still pulling 0.6 G at 100 MPH. On the flip side I can generate 1.3 G decel at 120 MPH.

Just fun to look at the data.

On the temperature side this is the data from my last run the air temp was 85 degrees F.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Capture3_zpsb39fcdf6.jpg

After 15 minutes the water was at around 220 F and the oil was around 270 F. To road race a 900 ish car and to keep it cool is tough. I'm very happy with the data.

Looking at the data the temps are becoming steady state and they will stabilize below peak excursion limits.

Once I get out of the throttle look how fast it cools!

Mark

[wiedemab]

[IMG]http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Capture_zps8040715d.jpg

On the flip side I can generate 1.3 G decel at 120 MPH.


Mark

After hitting the brakes at 120mph.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TDldZrAeZQ8/hqdefault.jpg

[MSTSFabbed]

Such cool data!!
I had a prof that would always tell us, "If you can't express it with a number, you don't know anything!"

What are you using to record all this?

[Sieg]

Looking the data Hellfire lacks forward bite.

Looking at the data AWD would fix forward bite. :headspin:

Need to add another dial on the dash........for traction management.

:popcorn2:

[Stielow]

Such cool data!!
I had a prof that would always tell us, "If you can't express it with a number, you don't know anything!"

What are you using to record all this?

http://www.race-technology.com/dash2_pro_2_31358.html

It will pull in the GM CAN data (All the information from the ECM). It has built in accelerometers, GPS and open channels for analog inputs. You can also link a GoPro to it to sync video and data.

The other thing I really like is you can program it for all the warnings you want and add math to the warning channels. For example if oil pressure is below 20 psi and RPM is above 2000 set warning lights.

Once you get used to using data it is hard to go back.

Mark

[sik68]

I've always wondered about onboard accelerometers for measuring lateral-g's. It seems to me that the roll angle of a car will amplify the measurement. If the sensor rolls by even just 3deg, that is still +0.05 apparent accel.

Is this an issue in data collection? Thanks!

[wiedemab]

I've been thinking about this dash for my car. I'm assuming the hookup is pretty simple given that it plugs into the OBDII port - right?

[Stielow]

I've always wondered about onboard accelerometers for measuring lateral-g's. It seems to me that the roll angle of a car will amplify the measurement. If the sensor rolls by even just 3deg, that is still +0.05 apparent accel.

Is this an issue in data collection? Thanks!

It uses the internal Accels and GPS to give data. Not sure of the full logic but I do know the GPS is also used to help cancel roll effects.

Mark

[64G-lark]

Hi Mark
I love your builds and wondered if would mind sharing some part numbers or information (year and model)on the source of your radiator mounts, brake booster and master cylinder.

Thanks Mark

[MAP]

Hi Mark,

I came across this thread yesterday and haven't had the time to digest it all just yet (!) but some simple math tells me that a rear-engine design with something like a 40/60% F/R weight distribution might do wonders for forward acceleration. I know this is a huge transformation, but at the rate you're going, I might imagine you're not many iterations away from something even this bold. Assuming mu(s) is 1.4 from the braking data, then your attainment of 0.85(ish) g's long. accel. is right at the theoretical limit given your weight distribution and ignoring transient effects from anti-squat (I'm assuming WB is 108" and the COM height is 21".) Go 40/60%, and you could attain 1.15g's.

Best,
MAP

[David Pozzi]

Braking would improve too.

[MAP]

Indeed!

Some other quick thoughts:

1. Total vehicle mass might be reduced by about 5%, other things being equal (which they rarely are...!) Cost in production might come down similarly due to this packaging efficiency and reduced redundancy of parts - rather like FWD, in reverse. The rear engine/tranny/suspension cradle might even go down the same production lines as existing FWD platforms. The '80's Fiero comes to mind inside the GM camp...

2. Izz would probably come down even more -maybe 20% or so. This, plus shifting the yaw center farther back, should result in a much snappier steering response (but I'm guessing this isn't critical for the kind of driving Mark might be most interested in?)

3. The desire for rear traction, and the desire for steering neutrality, could finally converge under the hotrodder's favorite theme of narrow tires up front, and wide in the rear. RWD with a front-heavy bias tends to demand conflicting, opposing width parities.

4. From above, it would be easier to package really wide tires when they don't have to turn the vehicle as opposed to when they do.

5. Crash worthiness may be a big issue, however...

Anyway, I'm probably missing a bunch, but that's what I get off the top of my head (?)

Best,
MAP

[Chad-1stGen]

Indeed!

Some other quick thoughts:

Cost in production might come down similarly due to this packaging efficiency and reduced redundancy of parts -

Best,
MAP

Ok you lost me there... Are you talking about building a custom car or manufacturing a line of cars lol

[MAP]

Apologies admittedly for a curve ball on that last post.

It's just a thoroughly ingrained habit with me to think about how to make the next 100,000 just much as making the next 1. It's my job in a very different field, actually. Please feel free to dismiss it as idle daydreaming!

Best,
MAP

[MAP]

Hi Folks,

I'm starting to suspect my post had the effect of halting further thread progress, and this absolutely wasn't my intention. I'll just add this point to my penultimate post and then invite everyone to carry on: as to steering neutrality, if an engine/tranny/suspension rear assembly can be made on a FWD line and per FWD methods, then with admittedly added cost, the steering function could be conserved. If so, then yaw dampening could be made constant irrespective of speed within reasonable limits, and it could be programmed to provide a direct dampening effect as well. The result would be highly predictable and stable handling with a tendency toward oversteer at low speeds, and understeer at high speeds. Maybe +/- 5 deg of rear-steer is all that's needed.

Again, please ignore and my apologies if this is unwanted input; I don't want to detract in the slightest from Mark's amazing work described in this thread.

Best,
MAP

[bdahlg68]

Hi Folks,

I'm starting to suspect my post had the effect of halting further thread progress, and this absolutely wasn't my intention. I'll just add this point to my penultimate post and then invite everyone to carry on: as to steering neutrality, if an engine/tranny/suspension rear assembly can be made on a FWD line and per FWD methods, then with admittedly added cost, the steering function could be conserved. If so, then yaw dampening could be made constant irrespective of speed within reasonable limits, and it could be programmed to provide a direct dampening effect as well. The result would be highly predictable and stable handling with a tendency toward oversteer at low speeds, and understeer at high speeds. Maybe +/- 5 deg of rear-steer is all that's needed.

Again, please ignore and my apologies if this is unwanted input; I don't want to detract in the slightest from Mark's amazing work described in this thread.

Best,
MAP

Porsche is doing this already. Porsche credits the active rear steering in the 991 GT3 with ~ 15s improvement in 'Ring time. The development of the system though is quite pricey.... :G-Dub:

[MAP]

IMO GM is very good at finding simple, clever, low-cost solutions to complex problems. Best - MAP

[Ummgawa]

Porsche is doing this already. Porsche credits the active rear steering in the 991 GT3 with ~ 15s improvement in 'Ring time. The development of the system though is quite pricey.... :G-Dub:

At 130+ large, it ought to do more than that. You should be able to toss your W-2s in that sucker and come back the next morning and find a refund check, even if you didn't have one coming.

[GregWeld]

Hi Mark,

I came across this thread yesterday and haven't had the time to digest it all just yet (!) but some simple math tells me that a rear-engine design with something like a 40/60% F/R weight distribution might do wonders for forward acceleration. I know this is a huge transformation, but at the rate you're going, I might imagine you're not many iterations away from something even this bold. Assuming mu(s) is 1.4 from the braking data, then your attainment of 0.85(ish) g's long. accel. is right at the theoretical limit given your weight distribution and ignoring transient effects from anti-squat (I'm assuming WB is 108" and the COM height is 21".) Go 40/60%, and you could attain 1.15g's.

Best,
MAP




If you want 63% rear weight bias he could just buy my Lotus 2 11..... Just be real mindful that the weight wants to lead the car... i.e., don't do a big throttle lift IN a corner... LOL

Everything has a trade off.

[MAP]

Generally speaking, when the center of thrust is forward of the center of mass, we have dynamic stability under forward acceleration. Under braking, the reverse is true. The former correlates more closely to a rear-heavy design, and the latter front-heavy. If accelerating while cornering, it does get more complex as you say.

Thx,
MAP

PS: I do hope we hear from Mark again soon. Please feel free to ignore all my posts about a rear-engine design if I crossed into a corporate no-talk zone.

[formula88]

Hellfire, as a work in progress, is featured in the 2015 CARS Inc. calendar for the month of February.

http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p603/67CamaroLS7/Camaro%20XV/DSC_3274.jpg (http://s1158.photobucket.com/user/67CamaroLS7/media/Camaro%20XV/DSC_3274.jpg.html)

[MAP]

The conundrum we always face with these technical interchanges is that only discussions within a broad public-domain definition can be occur. As soon as we get into something that's truly technically intriguing, IP corporate concerns shut down any further discourse. (The dark side of engineering that they never told us about at MIT.)

If I'm right about this, then we won't be hearing back from Mark in this thread again. Of course, I hope I'm wrong about this.

Best,
MAP

[frojoe]

Maybe this thread pretty quickly went in a massively-wayward and obscurely technical direction, hence the silence from Mark, since he's likely moved on to 1 or 2 other new main/side projects....

Just a thought.

[Roberts68]

Maybe this thread pretty quickly went in a massively-wayward and obscurely technical direction, hence the silence from Mark, since he's likely moved on to 1 or 2 other new main/side projects....

Just a thought.

The conundrum we always face with these technical interchanges is that only discussions within a broad public-domain definition can be occur. As soon as we get into something that's truly technically intriguing, IP corporate concerns shut down any further discourse. (The dark side of engineering that they never told us about at MIT.)

If I'm right about this, then we won't be hearing back from Mark in this thread again. Of course, I hope I'm wrong about this.

Best,
MAP

MAP, you might start a new thread in an appropriate subforum for your discussion, see what develops.

If it feels like the tangents you present are worthy of in depth discussion yet detract from a thread... Or drive off the original poster then that is likely the case and worthy of reconsidering.

That doesn't necessarily mean they won't be welcome discussions in their own right.

[MAP]

Thanks,

Too bad I can't go back in time and un-do those posts because it was never my intention to derail this thread - in fact, quite the opposite - the intention was to help drive it forward. Apologies again to Mark and everyone for having inadvertently done so. In retrospect, in our company too, it's lockdown mode when someone outside ventures into IP...

However, maybe in some small way those posts will stimulate thought for progress.

Best,
MAP

[Stielow]

Thanks,

Too bad I can't go back in time and un-do those posts because it was never my intention to derail this thread - in fact, quite the opposite - the intention was to help drive it forward. Apologies again to Mark and everyone for having inadvertently done so. In retrospect, in our company too, it's lockdown mode when someone outside ventures into IP...

However, maybe in some small way those posts will stimulate thought for progress.

Best,
MAP

MAP

A mid engine car would be faster. If I put my engine in a AWD mid engine car it would be faster. If I put my engine in a ZR-1 it would be faster. Just simple physics.

New or mid engine cars have better areo, CG, weight distribution.....

I'm not sure what question your asking.

Mark

[syborg tt]

Hi Mark,

Okay since where talking all this stuff that is way over my knowledge base. What are you thoughts on the new front wheel drive race car that just built and are taking to Le Mans.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/02/02/nissan-gtr-lm-nismo-le-mans-wec-official/

ps - Sorry for the Thread Hi-Jack

[Stielow]

Hi Mark,

Okay since where talking all this stuff that is way over my knowledge base. What are you thoughts on the new front wheel drive race car that just built and are taking to Le Mans.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/02/02/nissan-gtr-lm-nismo-le-mans-wec-official/

ps - Sorry for the Thread Hi-Jack

They did a good job the reading the rule book.

[dontlifttoshift]

Mark, where did you hide the GPS antenna for the Dash2? Did you have any problems getting GPS lock with that location?

Thanks!

[MAP]

Mark,

I'm very relieved and pleased to see that I was in fact wrong. I wasn't really asking any question, but just suggesting, by highlighting the physics, that given all of the ambitious and impressive things you've already done with Camaros, that rather than switch to a platform better suited to mid-engine, you might in fact try the close-to-impossible and make a 1st-gen Camaro that's mid-engine.

Thanks,
MAP

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Mark,

I'm very relieved and pleased to see that I was in fact wrong. I wasn't really asking any question, but just suggesting, by highlighting the physics, that given all of the ambitious and impressive things you've already done with Camaros, that rather than switch to a platform better suited to mid-engine, you might in fact try the close-to-impossible and make a 1st-gen Camaro that's mid-engine.

Thanks,
MAP

I would not say that. impractical sure

[Sieg]

Corvaro :secret:

[Stielow]

Mark, where did you hide the GPS antenna for the Dash2? Did you have any problems getting GPS lock with that location?

Thanks!

I put it on the dash. Works great. It links up on key up in about 30 seconds.

[dontlifttoshift]

Thanks!!

[Justin@EntropyRad]

Carbon can be a pain to work with, but you guys make it look easy!

[LXSS350]

Mark I am working on my abs system using oem ZR1 carbon ceramics, factory calipers, master cylinder, booster etc. This is running on oem ZR1 skf hubs, oem knuckles, oem SLA suspension arms.

Having not done abs on any build I am still on the lower end of the learning curve. A question you may be able to help with.

Will the Bosch M4 system work with the zr1 oem active sensors in the hubs? Obviously the M4 is the way to go (but it is expensive for what ultimately is a street car)

I would still love to find a way to use the far cheaper oem zr1 brake controller and abs pump and trick :headscratch: the controller into thinking its standalone rather than looking for information coming from the zr1 BCM with all its active body control that is not applicable in this application.

Colin

[Freedom_road]

I'm so jealous
That makes two of us!
I have owned my 1969 Camaro for 28 years now and although it is nice, I must say wow again and again to every build Mark does.
I could only dream of mine someday being even close to this. Mark I hope to meet you someday as I live only about 25 miles north of Royal Oak, MI.
Keep up the good work so we continue to have something to aspire to!

[Stielow]

Mark I am working on my abs system using oem ZR1 carbon ceramics, factory calipers, master cylinder, booster etc. This is running on oem ZR1 skf hubs, oem knuckles, oem SLA suspension arms.

Having not done abs on any build I am still on the lower end of the learning curve. A question you may be able to help with.

Will the Bosch M4 system work with the zr1 oem active sensors in the hubs? Obviously the M4 is the way to go (but it is expensive for what ultimately is a street car)

I would still love to find a way to use the far cheaper oem zr1 brake controller and abs pump and trick :headscratch: the controller into thinking its standalone rather than looking for information coming from the zr1 BCM with all its active body control that is not applicable in this application.

Colin

The stock ZR-1 active wheel speed sensors on the SKF brearing that you have will work with the Bosch M4 ABS system.

Not sure of a cheaper system other than the Conti system and it will work with the ZR-1 bearings also.

Mark

[LXSS350]

The stock ZR-1 active wheel speed sensors on the SKF brearing that you have will work with the Bosch M4 ABS system.

Not sure of a cheaper system other than the Conti system and it will work with the ZR-1 bearings also.

Mark

Thanks Mark http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif that confirms what I thought. I will take a look at the Continental system implementation for another option. The cost of a standalone tweek-able abs system sure is a big hit to the wallet.

However with the efficiency of carbon ceramics the need for me to include an abs system (solely for vigorous track use) is far easier than justifying such a significant cost (on a build) just for my sedate road usage. :innocent:

Your knowledge, input and feedback is without a doubt some of the most respected and sort after on this planet for a very good reason. Its a pleasure to just watch, listen and learn.


Colin

[mike343sharpstk]

I also had to make mount to bond to the mirrors to mount the mirrors to the doors.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4545_zps9041351f.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Camaro%20XV/DSC_4547_zpsdbad7eed.jpg


Can you please tell me what you used to bond your side mirror aluminum base to the carbon fiber?
I've done a test using the loctite marine 2-part epoxy but it doesn't hold like I expected.
Thanks
Mike

[onelapduster]

Can you please tell me what you used to bond your side mirror aluminum base to the carbon fiber?
I've done a test using the loctite marine 2-part epoxy but it doesn't hold like I expected.
Thanks
Mike

You could use what is called B-1/2 in the aviation world, it will work.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/proseal09-04493-4.php?clickkey=104482

[Stielow]

Can you please tell me what you used to bond your side mirror aluminum base to the carbon fiber?
I've done a test using the loctite marine 2-part epoxy but it doesn't hold like I expected.
Thanks
Mike

I used 3M panel bond adhesive. I'll see if I have a part number.

Mark

[dhutton]

I used 3M panel bond adhesive. I'll see if I have a part number.

Mark

3M 8115 is the number.

Don

[mike343sharpstk]

Thank you all, ordered!

[clill]

Loaded into the Detroit Autorama tonight.

[Sieg]

Clean the tires.

[KPC67]

Whistle whistle :whistling:

[HEEP]

That is one fine looking ride. The color just makes that car. Not to mention everything else about it.

Also, I see Weld has his booth right behind it.

[Stielow]

Clean the tires.

Sieg bring a tooth brush and help.......

I hate that car show crap.

Mark

[WSSix]

The car looks great sitting there. Hell, I'd leave the tires dirty just for the fun of it.

Charlie, which do you like driving more, Hellfire or Mayhem? I'm assuming you've gotten a chance to drive Hellfire at this point anyway.

[clill]

I think I have driven Hellfire a couple hundred feet at Optima to get fuel or tech and that is it. It's really slow.

[WSSix]

hahahaha. Well, please do report when you finally get to drive it for real. I remember you commenting on just how much of a pleasure Mayhem is to drive. I'm sure Hellfire is too.

[Sieg]

Sieg bring a tooth brush and help.......

I hate that car show crap.

Mark

You know who that was directed at. :D

clill.........cleanup on isle 5!

:hello:

[Sieg]

I think I have driven Hellfire a couple hundred feet at Optima to get fuel or tech and that is it. It's really slow.

Slow like an ICBM.

I'm glad Greg could barely reach the pedals as a quarter inch of throttle in Hellfire is more than enough on public roads and I didn't have a helmet.

[clill]

Only Stielow has put more miles on it than Greg Weld.

[GregWeld]

I think I have driven Hellfire a couple hundred feet at Optima to get fuel or tech and that is it. It's really slow.




:y0!: :y0!: :y0!: :y0!: :y0!: It's not that slow... LOL

[mikels]

I think I have driven Hellfire a couple hundred feet at Optima to get fuel or tech and that is it. It's really slow.

Mark told me to put the 'Charlie cal' in it after Autorama

So I set the following:
throttle limit: 20%
rev limit: 3000 rpm
Boost: bypass open all the time

So your experience driving Hellfire shoud be same as you remember it.

Dave

[Sieg]

One small problem, it will still put a hurt on the tires in 4th gear with that tune.

Well, maybe not with the boost bypass open. :D

[mikels]

One small problem, it will still put a hurt on the tires in 4th gear with that tune.

Well, maybe not with the boost bypass open. :D

Bypass open makes 'only' 700hp/675tq......

[Sieg]

Bypass open makes 'only' 700hp/675tq......

Nice.........though certainly not cop proof with what's his name behind the wheel. :D

[GregWeld]

Mark told me to put the 'Charlie cal' in it after Autorama

So I set the following:
throttle limit: 20%
rev limit: 3000 rpm
Boost: bypass open all the time

So your experience driving Hellfire shoud be same as you remember it.

Dave



OMG Dave, I almost peed myself laughing so hard at this thought!! How "fitting"....

[65_LS1_T56]

Sieg bring a tooth brush and help.......

I hate that car show crap.

Mark

Mark, we were pulling out as you just got in the registration line last night. Went to help Billy set up the Nova. What a zoo..my first experience at a show setup, I'm not a fan either. We sat in line for 2-1/2 hours just to get in.

[SSLance]

Just wait until its take out time... ;) And everyone wants out at the same time.

[RussMurco]

Just wait until its take out time... ;) And everyone wants out at the same time.

X2!!!
The first time I went to a show as an exhibitor I was far more enthusiastic going to than coming from! Louisville Nats, inside, is the worst!!!!

[65_LS1_T56]

Just wait until its take out time... ;) And everyone wants out at the same time.

yes, this^^.
The plan is to, hopefully, get everything in the car (flooring, stantions and rope) and drive it out to a rendezvous point with the tow rig :headspin:

I can say that I'm glad my car isn't shiny! I've got no real interest in this stuff :D

[SSLance]

We tried that the last time I helped someone with this scenario, only problem was the 2" of snow on the roads outside the hall and the only place I could park the trailer was with the nose pointed uphill. We barely got the car to the trailer, much less up in it... Did I mention this was also at about midnight on Sunday night...

I also am glad my car is not "show quality"...

[clill]

D lot

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Looks like he's in the Oreck booth? :sarcasm_smiley:

[LS7 Z/28]

Looks like he's in the Oreck booth? :sarcasm_smiley:

Or possibly Dirt Devil...

[robertslx]

nice build

[Freedom_road]

I stopped to see Billy from B&B Classics and to my surprise Mark stopped by. It was nice to finally meet Mark, what a class guy.

Mark you are very humble and down to earth, very nice to see. When Billy posts the dates for Gingerman I will definitely come down to see you guys run.

Hellfire looks even better in person!

[formula88]

A few more Autorama pics...

http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p603/67CamaroLS7/Camaro%20XV/DSC_3840.jpg (http://s1158.photobucket.com/user/67CamaroLS7/media/Camaro%20XV/DSC_3840.jpg.html)

http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p603/67CamaroLS7/Camaro%20XV/DSC_3839.jpg (http://s1158.photobucket.com/user/67CamaroLS7/media/Camaro%20XV/DSC_3839.jpg.html)

[GregWeld]

Gordon --- Damned if I could figure out how to vote on Faceybookzitfacedlittlegirls.com (it's that because I'm too stupid to figure it out) --- but I did post a #DlotHellFire on Instagram if that helps.


Good pictures by the way!

[Ketzer]

Same GW. But I did hashbrown him in a few Instagram posts/threads/whatever.



Jeff-

[formula88]

lol...Greg and Jeff...yeah we had a lot of fun with the # jokes.

btw...Charley (or mostly the model in the poster dress :) )was mentioned on the Detroit News website.

http://www.detroitnews.com/autos/

http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p603/67CamaroLS7/Camaro%20XV/DSC_3844.jpg (http://s1158.photobucket.com/user/67CamaroLS7/media/Camaro%20XV/DSC_3844.jpg.html)

[Vince@Meanstreets]

lol...Greg and Jeff...yeah we had a lot of fun with the # jokes.

btw...Charley (or mostly the model in the poster dress :) )was mentioned on the Detroit News website.

http://www.detroitnews.com/autos/

http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p603/67CamaroLS7/Camaro%20XV/DSC_3844.jpg (http://s1158.photobucket.com/user/67CamaroLS7/media/Camaro%20XV/DSC_3844.jpg.html)

poor thing has to tinkle

[clill]

Cool..

[Sieg]

Cool..

That's the coolest trophy I've seen.

Congrats :thumbsup:

[69hugger]

That's the coolest trophy I've seen.

Congrats :thumbsup:

X2

That baby must weigh 40#. Better make sure the shelf it will sit on is up to the task!

[WSSix]

Congrats! That is a good looking trophy.

[syborg tt]

Hi Mark,

The Cerakote finish on your trim and wheels is the color by any chance Tungsten or Sniper Gray? I not a fan of the chrome wheels on my car and want to go with the same color you used.

http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/finishes/H-237Q/tungsten/

http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/uploaded/thumbnails/db_file_img_1251_325xauto.jpg


http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/finishes/H-234Q/sniper-grey/

http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/uploaded/thumbnails/db_file_img_1239_325xauto.jpg

[WSSix]

There's a difference between those two colors?

[Sieg]

There's a difference between those two colors?
Top one has more taupe or bottom one has more blue.

Monitor color settings may skew the perception.......

[Hotrod1]

Blue dress, gold dress.

[Stielow]

Hi Mark,

The Cerakote finish on your trim and wheels is the color by any chance Tungsten or Sniper Gray? I not a fan of the chrome wheels on my car and want to go with the same color you used.

http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/finishes/H-237Q/tungsten/

http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/uploaded/thumbnails/db_file_img_1251_325xauto.jpg


http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/finishes/H-234Q/sniper-grey/

http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/uploaded/thumbnails/db_file_img_1239_325xauto.jpg

Finspeed coated my wheels Tungsten and Fabcoat in MI did the trim.

Mark

[Sieg]

Mark,

Regarding performance, what is your perception of the Cerakote finish?

[syborg tt]

Good Morning Mark and Thank you very much

Finspeed coated my wheels Tungsten and Fabcoat in MI did the trim.

Mark

[frojoe]

I've tested Cerakote on offroady-type 2-wheeled things and it holds up quite well until an impact of a certain force, then it cracked and flaked off quite quickly. This was on raw, welded, heat-treated 7005 aluminum. Not sure what alloy his rims would be forged out of and if the treatment base coating would "stick" better to the rim material.

[Stielow]

Mark,

Regarding performance, what is your perception of the Cerakote finish?

I like it. Seems to hold up well but it can be scraped off if treated rough. We will know better once Charley takes the car on Power Tour. LOL

Mark

[syborg tt]

I like it. Seems to hold up well but it can be scrapped off if treated rough. We will know better once Charley takes the car on Power Tour. LOL

Mark

Ditto, I will also be doing a few legs of the Power tour this year. However, I am certain Charley will be driving his car much harder then I drive mine.

on a side note I will have my bike with me so I can hit a few of the mountain bike trails that are near each of the Stops.

[clill]

Drove the POS about 80 miles to Pleasanton just now.. Goodguys tomorrow. I love this DSE subframe.

[Stielow]

Drove the POS about 80 miles to Pleasanton just now.. Goodguys tomorrow. I love this DSE subframe.

Hey how about the rest of the cool crap.......

[clill]

And it's kinda fast

[clill]

And the anti lock brakes are kinda cool

[Sieg]

You just raised 'kinda' to a new level.

[glassman]

So, did Ed talk you into throwing it through the cones? :rofl:
So, the cone zone is not the crack the big track is, but it beats mowing the grass!!

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Hey how about the rest of the cool crap.......

LOL, reminds me of the time I went to a strip club with my friends and one if them says "yeah, she's ok, but I can't get over her shoes". I hope to see it in person this weekend. The car that is.

Charley are you going both days?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

So, did Ed talk you into throwing it through the cones? :rofl:
So, the cone zone is not the crack the big track is, but it beats mowing the grass!!

The track layout looks good too. Where's mary, I think she drove it before.

[tom091074]

I like it. Seems to hold up well but it can be scrapped off if treated rough. We will know better once Charley takes the car on Power Tour. LOL

Mark

I have a gun I had Cerakoted and it's holding up really well. not that it gets beat up at all but in and out of the holster can wear on the finish, not a mark yet. Of course Charley isn't the one using it. lol

[fleetus macmullitz]

Drove the POS about 80 miles to Pleasanton just now.. Goodguys tomorrow. I love this DSE subframe.

Hey how about the rest of the cool crap.......

And it's kinda fast

And the anti lock brakes are kinda cool

I can feel the excitement from here...


:sarcasm_smiley:

[clill]

I'll be here Sat for sure. I talked Jody into bringing my 32 Ford that I have for sale. I was going to trailer it myself but since Jody is hauling it I. Could then drive Hellfire. A lot more fun than pulling a trailer.. Thanks Jody. If nobody buys the 32 on Sat we might stay til Sun.

[Sieg]

I like it. Seems to hold up well but it can be scraped off if treated rough. We will know better once Charley takes the car on Power Tour. LOL

Mark

Thanks..........hopefully Hellfire fairs better than his RC stuff. :D

[GregWeld]

Time to post up YouTube "driveway burnout" videos.... LOL



Hope you sell Stacked.




http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Charlies%20Cars/4-27-04001.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Charlies%20Cars/4-27-04001.jpg.html)





http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Charlies%20Cars/4-27-04005.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Charlies%20Cars/4-27-04005.jpg.html)

[dontlifttoshift]

. I'm using the stock ZL-1cooler (part number 20931169).

I have this part in my hand.


The CAD picture is the diff cooler in the Z/28. I used the ZL-1 cooler because it is 30% bigger.

So more OE tech in my hot rod.

Mark

The Z28 cooler looks bigger in the Chevrolet Performance catalog, looks like it has more plates. Is the ZL1 thicker?

My parts guy couldn't put a number on the fittings and or O rings for this heat exchanger. Do you know them or can you direct me to reliable source?

Thanks in advance.

[clill]

Dummy is on his way to Italy so he can't answer you.

[formula88]

ZL1 heat exchanger does have a thicker core.

O-ring pn 22786616 (4) required

Fitting pn 22786620

We machine off the quick disconnect portion and weld on a -6AN male.

[dontlifttoshift]

Gordon, thanks!

[atomicjoe23]

Was a final weight ever posted for the Hellfire???

[clill]

..........

[GregWeld]

You couldn't find a CHEVROLET sign to hang over the car??

[JohnC]

Charley, thanks for my new computer background....:thumbsup:

Killer shot...

John

[SSLance]

You couldn't find a CHEVROLET sign to hang over the car??

My first thought as well... WTF? :D

[DavidBoren]

I think it's fitting that the picture pairs Ford with the Camaro's taillights.

[syborg tt]

Charley, thanks for my new computer background....:thumbsup:

Killer shot...

John

Ditto what John said - Great Picture.

?? Can you tell us more about the Magazine

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Ditto what John said - Great Picture.

?? Can you tell us more about the Magazine

yeah, not bad for a Galaxy S6

[clill]

That pic was done by light painting. The camera stayed stationary and a ton of pics are taken while someone holding a flash that is triggered by the camera slowly walks past the car. Maybe every two feet he travels the flash goes off. Then all the pics are downloaded and melded together to make one pic. It really brings out the accents on the car. The photographer flew out from New York to do the shoot.

[HWY Nova]

Ditto what John said - Great Picture.

?? Can you tell us more about the Magazine

www.protouringmag.com
(http://www.protouringmag.com)

[RodZZilla]

Cropped the picture for Pintrest. Couldn't pin the original.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/114771490480534172/

[WSSix]

Looks good, Charlie. What's the blue car in the corner? Another 1st gen?

[clill]

Blue car is a Berger COPO 427 Camaro

[frankv11]

You couldn't find a CHEVROLET sign to hang over the car??

X2
What piece of art , major talent and yet my eye goes straight to the FORD sign
:)

[Sieg]

You couldn't find a CHEVROLET sign to hang over the car??

That's an Fe ord sign, their nautical division.........no foul.

[DBasher]

Good looking floor.

[glassman]

Looks good, Charlie. What's the blue car in the corner? Another 1st gen?

Eagle eye!! haha

Eye couldn't take my I's off of the red thing right in the middle of the photo.
Really like the way they do that photography, takes that red to a whole 'nuther level.

Charlie, does it drive much different than Mayhem? Or pretty much the same?(as in same chassis & driveline)

[WSSix]

Eagle eye!! haha

Eye couldn't take my I's off of the red thing right in the middle of the photo.
Really like the way they do that photography, takes that red to a whole 'nuther level.

Charlie, does it drive much different than Mayhem? Or pretty much the same?(as in same chassis & driveline)

Almost! Honestly, I was checking out Charlie's garage. I find that a lot of collectors also have great automobilia and promotional items from throughout history. I find these almost as fascinating as the cars.

Thanks for the pictures of the COPO, Charlie. That's a gorgeous car as well.

[Ketzer]

Blue car is a Berger COPO 427 Camaro

That things pretty blinged up for a COPO? I guess there's a whole story behind it ?


Jeff-

[syborg tt]

Reminds me of my Dad's 62 Bubble Top way to perfect to consider taking out in public.

Blue car is a Berger COPO 427 Camaro

[fleetus macmullitz]

Almost! Honestly, I was checking out Charlie's garage. I find that a lot of collectors also have great automobilia and promotional items from throughout history. I find these almost as fascinating as the cars.

Thanks for the pictures of the COPO, Charlie. That's a gorgeous car as well.

X2...that is one tasty Berger. :thumbsup:

[will69camaro]

What size is that steering wheel in the car and what seats?

I tried PM but your message box is full!

William

[Stielow]

What size is that steering wheel in the car and what seats?

I tried PM but your message box is full!

William

The steering wheel is a Momo 380 mm and the seats are Recaro Trend seat with the leather option.

Mark

[fleetus macmullitz]

What size is that steering wheel in the car and what seats?

I tried PM but your message box is full!

William

I propose 1000 extra pm spaces and the services of a topnotch (yet unpaid) lat-g intern for 1 year after every OUSCI/SMOTY win. ;)

#beingpopularainteasy

[hersheys69z]

Charlie will Hellfire be at Pleasanton good guys in August?
Hoping to get to see it. Was bummed I didn't go to the last show.
Never thought a Stielow car would be at my local show.

[clill]

No but I am driving it to Hot August Nights in Reno.

[streetbird]

Hi Mark,
Do you have any shots of the valance insert and signal.
Thanks
Louis

[Stielow]

Hi Mark,
Do you have any shots of the valance insert and signal.
Thanks
Louis

Do you want the brake ducts or the front valance?

Mark

[syborg tt]

Hi Mark,
Do you have any shots of the valance insert and signal.
Thanks
Louis

I have a few pics here

http://garagescene.net/gallery3/index.php/search?album=36090&q=Steilow


http://garagescene.net/gallery3/var/resizes/Events/2014-Sema/Builders/2014%20Sema%20Steilow%2069%20Camaro%20%2809%29.JPG

[streetbird]

Do you want the brake ducts or the front valance?

Mark
I found one in the link that Marty post.
:thankyou:

[Stielow]

Charley on Power Tour

https://theblock.com/news/beat-heat-hellfire-charley-lillard-s-1969-camaro

[will69camaro]

I love that these builds get used and abused. Well done.

[Sieg]

B69CE - Best 69 Camaro Ever! :thumbsup:

[lawkmlaw]

amazing:newbie:

[MizfitJon]

How did you get the ZR1 brakes to fit inside an 18" wheel Mark?

[JON Q]

Brembo Carbon brakes are 393MM
you need 18" or 19" Mono block wheels

[redfire69]

Mark, do you recall what you used for a rear license plate light? Thanks in advance- Ron

[Stielow]

Mark, do you recall what you used for a rear license plate light? Thanks in advance- Ron

A surface mount LED https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/led-light-modules/flexible-led-accent-light-module/832/

[paulk68]

Hi Mark, can I ask where you got the shift knob?

[redfire69]

A surface mount LED https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/led-light-modules/flexible-led-accent-light-module/832/

Thanks Mark, much appreciated!

[Jafa]

The engine plumbing is turning out well

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/7861cb06-e142-419c-94cb-9b7f3b4aa069_zps66d15031.jpg

Hi Mark, I know I'm way late to the party, but just read the whole thread. Wonderful execution, first class engineering, and thanks so much for sharing it with everyone.

Can you please tell us what the hose clamps are? They look like the band is covered in black heat shrink? Another nice little detail.

[clill]

Just plain hose clamps with heat shrink tubing slipped on.

[Dr. Jekyll]

What an incredible build, definitely worth reading ever page!