1985 Monte Carlo SS known as Barney

[SSLance]

This has been my 6 year long build, that has been finished a couple of times already...but has recently gone back under the knife once again.

My current list of accomplishments and mods are as follows:

Completely restored everything but the top sides of the frame rails and the paint
GMPP HT383 fed by the stock CCC Q-jet and Carb, 402 ft lbs, 284 hp to the rear tires
T56 out of a 1999 Camaro
Custom 3.5" drivershaft
Quick Performance 9" with disc brakes, 3:50 gear
All suspension pivot points are delrin, front UCAs DSE, LCAs Ridetech, Rear Control arms all UMI with roto joints
36mm F-body sway bar up front, 1" Hotchkiss LCA mounted rear sway bar
Ridetech TQ coilover shocks, 3.6" travel up front, 6.9" travel out back
Hypercoil springs, 8" 600# front, 12" 162# rear
Street rims are Billet Specialties Reallys 17x8, 17x9.5, rubber will end up being Rivals once BFG makes some wide enough
Track rims are 16x8 ZQ8s with Hoosier A6s
Interior mods include Dakota Dash VHX gauges, Retrosound head unit, 2005 GTO seats, sound deadening and new carpet

I'm sure I've forgot some things as well, but that's pretty much the car as it currently sits.

Overall it's a great driving car, wouldn't be afraid to take it on a long road trip at all. It's very comfortable and the suspension tweaks done on it for autocross competing have only helped it's street manners. I am trying to strike a fine balance between a street car and a track car. This has held me up a bit on track days in the near future as I'm concerned about the 28 year old stock restraint system in place with the speeds it will now obtain on the big tracks. I'm still undecided what to do in that area. Don't really want to cage the car, but might consider a 4 point bar and a harness or maybe even some door bars in the future.

Only other really pressing need is replacement body bushings. The stock rubber bushings still appear okay, but let the frame flex WAY too much for the spirited driving the car sees. This will be my main winter project, along with upgrading the front brake package.

I have a ton of pictures of the car, if there are any mods you'd like to see pictures of, just ask.

Here's a pic of me throwing the car around the autocross course a month or so ago just because...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qvl-yDyjt4c/UklnWFAbviI/AAAAAAAAJlE/kpv8JgZChUM/w847-h563-no/DSC03718.JPG

[214Chevy]

Lance, sounds like you've done alot to the car. Keep us posted. Also, more pics too.

[coolwelder62]

I've always love these car's & GN's too.Can't wait too see more.

[SSLance]

Here is the car on the chassis dyno back in March

http://youtu.be/3pPVd_peuuA

Here's the readout.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EhlP3IGQCzA/UmliTHREl6I/AAAAAAAAJ-w/gUfL-A6dvnk/w435-h563-no/Chassis+Dyno+results+03-13-2013.jpg

It detonated about 4250 RPM and the ECM pulled out some timing and that affected the numbers. I have since tuned on the secondaries on the carb to fatten it up and that stopped the pinging, but haven't put it back on the dyno since to see what it would do now.

Test run after fiddling with the hanger and rods and the air valve opened up some more.

http://youtu.be/3KT10XdoBJg

I don't think that's too shabby considering it's got a CCC Q-jet and distributor from a 1985 180 hp 305 feeding it. This engine setup is the perfect match for the T56 to me. It builds a ton of torque down low and never skips, misses, stumbles or hesitates...when you ask for it, it's there...every time. In fact, they had to put traction aide on the tires after the first dyno pull because it spun the tires on the dyno wheels. Video... http://youtu.be/dgBGSwuDXjc

Yet you can cruise down the highway at 65 MPH, turning 1650 RPM in 6th and get almost 20 mpg.

EFI, we don't need no stinking EFI... :mock:

[SSLance]

and here are the autocross runs from my first time out with Ron Sutton's Stage 1 setup under the car. I just kept running it harder and harder on each run, and it just kept getting faster.

http://youtu.be/N3ggkP3P_tE

I can't wait to see how it does this Sunday with Stage 2 under it.

[FETorino]

Nice to see something different running hard.

Good luck tomorrow Lance

Can't wait to see how stage II works out. :thumbsup:

:cheers:

[SSLance]

Dec 3rd, and the second day in a row that I've driven my MCSS to work.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LtGl-Hyiq-A/Up3p5Uh_OiI/AAAAAAAAKlg/bqHUlJNwIzM/w997-h562-no/IMG_20131203_082542_509.jpg

Probably be the last day for a while though as winter is supposed to reappear tomorrow.

Checked the odometer today and have put about 1900 miles on the car since the T56 install last December. Pretty good year. A LOT of those miles were put on 50 seconds at a time competing in autocross events, I think 11-12 total events...need to go back and add them up. Plus a two day track day event at Heartland Park for about 180 miles or so.

I'm still tweaking a just bit on the Ridetech shocks to find the ultimate street ride settings. I've got them pretty close though...man this thing is fun to drive on the street...and I wouldn't hesitate to take it on a long road trip either now, it's just that comfortable. Still handles off ramps and twisty roads pretty well in street mode as well.

So glad to have a car so driveable yet so fun to drive at the same time. Even had someone pass me on the highway, slow back down...and hang a camera out the window to take a picture of the car rolling down the highway on the way into work today.

Plans for the off season include but are not limited to:

Body Bushing replacement
Front brake replacement\upgrade
Power steering system overhaul\upgrade
(2) 17x9.5 rims to match the rears and (4) new 200 TW tires for them
Final remeasure on all of the suspension points and tweaks to fine tune them after

and then just some piddly stuff like adding a day\night comp\temp mirror, some fit and trim pieces inside, some cosmetic work under the hood to cover up wear and tear and a good overall cleaning.

Should keep me busy through the long cold winter don't ya think?

[instro84]

cool. nice work Lance.

[WSSix]

sounds like a good plan to me!

[SSLance]

Body Bushing Replacement Project has commenced...

Since I knew that I'd need the frame sitting on the wheels to get the bushings all trimmed to fit properly and I knew that I needed to do some work on my billet wheels too, I broke out the stockers.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-AGAXkuE1cdw/UrXVOi-vrSI/AAAAAAAALSc/EacP0R8VWgQ/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20131221_115040_881.jpg

Old School... Still looks good too, IMHO...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nMpT2keNnPc/UrXVRGBcwBI/AAAAAAAALSo/oMrq0b1jNRU/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20131221_115135_941.jpg

Crib stands work like a champ.

Here is what the core support bushings look like with the weight of the car on the tires.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-URpK652CGzE/UrXgV9q5dpI/AAAAAAAALTU/69TGTfNeqgg/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20131221_115351_387.jpg

And with the frame lifted in between the wheels...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Bzk3_eJ9s3Y/UrXMiSLMKBI/AAAAAAAALRA/IPQjvJcrF1E/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20131221_111456_644.jpg

I'm hoping to tighten that up with new bushings in place.

I set the car on the stands and started loosening body bolts starting at the #1 position. They all came out pretty easily, if they'd start to tighten up and get stiff I'd reverse the wrench a couple of turns then continue loosening the bolt. All of them came out real well until I got to #6 driver side. A half of a turn with the wrench is all it took...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-owhdE42kHz4/UrXgvujlqkI/AAAAAAAALTs/Hfu-r748tC8/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20131221_123931_237.jpg

I was a bit discouraged but went ahead and took the other 3 bolts behind the rear tires out. #6 passenger side was the second worse, but it came out whole. Here's the old vs new pic...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-496MkpxAzS0/UrX6thHO7lI/AAAAAAAALVA/nbjJaIVR8sw/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20131221_135834_478.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xlbb3ObY_qU/UrX6vKlMN2I/AAAAAAAALVM/353iw540VrY/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20131221_140020_485.jpg

Thankfully I think there is enough of the broken bolt sticking down out of the nut that I should be able to get a hold of it with something once I get the body lifted off the frame.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VCAQBn1AsuE/UrX6xlj53SI/AAAAAAAALWY/v5WWzDX9yS4/w386-h684-no/IMG_20131221_141730_906.jpg

I'm pretty sure that's the only spot on the frame that will need a repair as well. The rest look pretty good.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-rJgPelcp4nk/UrX6qcTzkbI/AAAAAAAALUo/rCqkGdbruQ0/w386-h684-no/IMG_20131221_135101_370.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1uhX2vvepOU/UrX5W36WURI/AAAAAAAALUY/s0mdBCwDiLU/w386-h684-no/IMG_20131221_134948_293.jpg

Well, maybe not good but...hopefully good enough.


I've got the front fenderwells out, and I've loosened the front and rear bumpers...and all of the body bolts out. I'm trying to decide exactly how far I need to lift the body and what else I'll need to take loose depends on that.

Main thing I don't really want to take loose is the radiator hoses...taking the master cylinder loose isn't that big of a deal.

Other than that, I'm done for the day. Need to order some body bolts and some rust converter and paint...

[Ron Sutton]

Looking good Lance.

Keep us updated & share your great "how to" photos.

[SSLance]

So Plan A to remove the broken bolt was a bust. I raised the body about 5 inches above the frame but it is still pretty tight to get in the area. Frame on the bottom side, covered by the fender hanging down on the outside, and the gas tank on the inside. Can only really get to one side of the bolt through the rear tire area.

I cleaned the bolt the best I could with a wire wheel and tried to get a nut on it. The threads are completely gone and of the nuts I had on hand, one wouldn't get started and the other slid all the way up to the cage nut. I was able to get the smaller one half way force threaded onto the bolt and attempted to weld it to the bolt. This is where I ran into trouble, I could not get the ground clamp anywhere on the body where the ground would conduct to the bolt. I ended up just holding the ground clamp up against the nut on the back side while trying to attempt to weld them together from the front. After a couple of attempts I thought I had them bonded...but just a little bit of pressure on the wrench broke the nut free again.

With the nut on the bolt, just a very little tip of the bolt is sticking through and there isn't enough room above the nut to stitch a weld there either. And with the ground clamp just up against the nut, the nut gets red hot very fast and starts burning but it doesn't appear as if the penetration is getting to the bolt at all. I'm assuming this is either because of the ground situation, corrosion on the bolt or just my lack of welding skill. I gave up for the night...

The only thought I had to try before going with the "cut the bolt off and drill it out method" is to make a small piece of rectangular shaped 3/16s steel and drill a hole in it just large enough to fit over the bolt. This way I could slide it up over the bolt and have a larger area of bolt to weld to the piece of steel. I could then either try to turn the steel or slide a larger nut over the bolt and weld it to the steel plate and then turn them both with a wrench. The idea of the steel is it's thinner which will give me more of the broken bolt below it to get a better weld on. Does anyone think that is worth a shot?

If that doesn't work, then I'll have to pull the rear bumper cover and possibly the front bumper cover, radiator hoses, brake and master clutch cylinder assemblies and the engine wire harness and go ahead and lift the body up off of the frame to get better access to the area to start the drilling out process.

Aren't cars fun...

[SSLance]

Just finished shopping...

4 frame repair washers ordered from Kirban
8 body bolts ordered from Fastenal
2 Eastwood Internal Frame Coating w/Spray Nozzle
3 Rust Encapsulator Black 15 oz.aerosol
3 Extreme Chassis Black Satin 14 Ounce Aerosol

With any luck at all I'll have all of that at home before next weekend.

Now all I gotta do is get that damn bolt out...

[Ron Sutton]

This doesn't sound like a job ... it sounds lika an adventure!

:lol:

You're making your baby a better car, so keep at Lance!

[SSLance]

There is a reason why I put this job off for so many years. :_paranoid

My worst fear about it didn't materialize...pretty happy that I don't have to pull the interior to cut holes in the body to get to the back side of the cage nuts on positions 2-4.

And it looks like most of my frame holes might be okay. Not Great...but okay. If I end up pulling the bumper covers, I'll probably go ahead and fix them right...but if I can get that bolt out without pulling the covers, I'll probably just make them due as is.

Pulling the body might make it much easier to home grow some chassis stiffeners at the same time though. :unibrow:

[SSLance]

Plan B


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0CQb3MO7NQo/UrnIyFhQvOI/AAAAAAAALYQ/MOZo9-EIz8M/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20131224_114757_745.jpg

Titan Stud Extractor... $19.50
WD 40 Rust Penetrant... $6.99

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dfy0wE3IhHQ/UrnI5_USnXI/AAAAAAAALYc/hJ4T9wCfJ7g/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20131224_114809_104.jpg

10 minutes later...after a little heat, a little penetrant, a little bit of torque, a little more heat...then some more spray...then one more time with the extractor and BOOM!!!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5-OrDA_MaU8/UrnT6IfKuLI/AAAAAAAALYw/HRmHtKVRarE/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20131224_123147_610.jpg


Lance wins!!!


I then removed all of the factory rubber bushings and slid the body portions of the Poly Graphite bushings between the frame and body and set the body down on them, then set the weight of the body and frame on the wheels...and checked the tightness of all of the bushings. They all fit real well...only the #3 bushing on each side is a bit loose. Looks like one washer from the old bushings should be just about right to snug it up tight with all of the rest of them.

The passenger side is sitting at almost exactly the same height as it was above the frame with the factory bushings and the driver side is up about .015" from before. I think I'm gonna call it good. The passenger #1 bushing was a bit loose then I discovered that one shim was still stuck to the bottom of the factory bushing. Once it was slid into place...snug like all the rest. I'm gonna call it good.

Here is the worst of the frame holes... #6 driver (behind rear tire) with the new bushing sitting in place.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9UA0Id4LNqo/UrnvL-3I0bI/AAAAAAAALas/_gEoL48yZx8/w912-h684-no/DSC03982.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BFSggNpaTSg/UrnvLYNNSnI/AAAAAAAALao/BexbeqV1lNg/w912-h684-no/DSC03981.JPG

Here is the second worst...#2 passenger side (behind the front tire) with the new bushing in place.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yd1nMtX-agQ/UrnvM_plplI/AAAAAAAALa0/NwVk1VN4bQI/w912-h684-no/DSC03985.JPG

Here is #2 Driver side...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-H3iOGKtrmzs/UrnvQYdZTOI/AAAAAAAALbM/mwA6jIlOMHU/w912-h684-no/DSC03986.JPG

And here is #6 passenger side

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MfWpDwCx68Y/UrnvH_RO3hI/AAAAAAAALac/SNy1_Vkm-ys/w912-h684-no/DSC03976.JPG

I think I'm alright with just cleaning them up and coating them to protect them from getting any worse.

All of the rest of them are almost perfect...as are all of the body locations and cage nuts. It's amazing really...check these out.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3Mgowi6BnPM/UrnvBkwj78I/AAAAAAAALZs/zyodzkokbDc/w912-h684-no/DSC03970.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NCc3rp9kGus/UrnvE2rBaeI/AAAAAAAALaE/EHJ_jW13i9o/w912-h684-no/DSC03975.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JGIxMMFKRfs/UrnvHxxYmdI/AAAAAAAALaY/BInJ4u4_JXo/w912-h684-no/DSC03980.JPG

Lance is very VERY happy to have this part of the job past him. Just a little bit more cleaning up and coating, tapping out the nuts, lubing everything up and installing the rest of the new bushings and the new bolts, lining up the body and cranking everything down.

I'll probably drive it like that for a bit then if I think it's necessary I'll cut up a delrin puck for the #s 1 and 2 positions to really snug things up. I can also plan ahead on a frame repair later on if necessary as well. I think I'd like to wait until I get a mig welder before I do that though. The flux core wire welder just makes too much of a mess.

Oh yeah...the brown truck stopped by yesterday as well.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3nEv2ZYMzC4/UrjyayvA02I/AAAAAAAALX8/VxxtMHN05Lc/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20131223_160900_777.jpg


Merry Christmas to me!!!

[Ron Sutton]

Wow ... you had to go hardcore, old school on it.

I had no doubt you'd win. :)

[GregWeld]

Good work Lance....


Another old skool trick is to heat the busted stud or nut and just use a candle and let the wax pull into the threads... Works like a charm.


Don't ya just love old cars!! LOL

[SSLance]

Thanks guys. My Dad was out in the shop watching me when I broke it loose and I had to explain to him why that was about the best Christmas present I could get. :D

I watched a bunch of videos the other night of guys welding nuts onto studs to get them out and I know now what I was doing wrong, or what my trouble was anyway. They were all using either mig or tig welders and being real neat and tidy with the puddle once it was formed and my old flux core wire feed welder just splatters all over the place instead of letting you create a nice puddle to work with. I decided then that a mig welder is on my shopping list. It might just be how I reward myself for getting this far on this job so quickly.

Anyway, this $19.00 stud extractor is the shiznit. As you crank it tight with a ratchet (counterclockwise) it tightens down clamping onto the stud. Once it won't tighten anymore, it puts all of the force into turning it loose out of the hole. It never even slipped on the old corroded up stub of a bolt it had to grab onto.

It is now Lance approved for sure...

[SSLance]

So even though I was feeling less than 100% yesterday, I headed out to the shop about 1 pm and settled in to repair my #2R body bushing frame hole. I was lucky that there was still enough of the existing hole left to let me use the bushing to mark where the repair washer was going to go.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-64hFmjf5os4/UsSkUXLoFXI/AAAAAAAALp8/YGBPJJbS9eY/w912-h684-no/DSC04065.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-emyNsVfd9tM/UsSkUeVtS0I/AAAAAAAALp4/FaX5apxmlSI/w912-h684-no/DSC04066.JPG

Cutting the frame parts out was a challenge. There just isn't enough room to get the proper tools in there. I used a carbide bit on a right angle die grinder first then a light duty plasma cutter that I borrowed. Both were a bit under sized to do a good job once I got into the good steel of the frame. I then decided to start whittling down on the washer to fine tune the fit. Plus this way I could bevel the edge of the washer with the grinder to get it to fit down inside the frame without falling through the hole. Here's as good as I could get it.


https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wSbSJbOt03k/UsSkWtgfMNI/AAAAAAAALqM/Q7gwtRQvd3c/w912-h684-no/DSC04068.JPG


Time to break out the new MillerMatic 211 and get to welding. I used the gauge to determine that the washer thickness was in between 14 gauge and 1/8" thick so I set the wire speed and voltage settings halfway between those two based on the chart, clamped the ground on the frame ans tried to tack the washer in...no spark. Spent about 5 minutes chasing it down, even hit a quick bead on a piece of scrap steel which worked...finally figured out it wasn't getting a good ground. I ended up putting a C clamp on the frame close to the repair site, clamping it down tight and then clamping the welder ground on it. The tack welds went pretty good, so I started laying down a bead around the back side of the washer. That went pretty well, then as I got to the engine side...I started burning through the frame. I tried again on the fender side and after a bit started burning through as well. The welds were plenty hot and laying down nicely but I was blowing away the frame as I went along. I ended up turning the volts down just a bit and moved slower which filled the void but also built up the welds higher than I would have liked.

This was after a wire wheel and a little bit of dressing.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BBIqUEzZY4U/UsSkY30tmsI/AAAAAAAALqk/CihJjmfuv4o/w912-h684-no/DSC04073.JPG


Had it been out in the open it wouldn't have been a big deal, hit them with a flap wheel to dress them up and call it good. Bit of a different story here though, I cleaned them up the best I could while test fitting the bushing. I finally got it where it sat pretty well and called it good. Most of the high welds are just outside the bushing and I'm sure the Poly Graphite bushing will pull down around the humps and bumps left. If I decide to go with a solid aluminum or delrin bushing I'll have to clean them up a bit better though.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KDHGwuVGJY4/UsSkZvFWM7I/AAAAAAAALqs/A_s7S-Lg7hk/w912-h684-no/DSC04075.JPG

I also had to clean up the underside where the welds blew through so the bottom bushing would sit flat. Thankfully I could get a die grinder up in there with a cut off wheel on it to dress them up.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kCGPtWMFUGw/UsSkbEJnQtI/AAAAAAAALq8/tcX8n2IMqRI/w1089-h684-no/DSC04079.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bAG9Lvkhb0A/UsSkdlrNvyI/AAAAAAAALrY/hPbwceP11Gc/w912-h684-no/DSC04085.JPG

I then hit all of the areas of the frame and body I could get to with a coat of Eastwoods Rust Encapsulator and after it setup two coats of Extreme Chassis Black.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-acvS-iM4D1E/UsSkgPjnNCI/AAAAAAAALrw/956-ALwElRg/w912-h684-no/DSC04088.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ppYV30164RM/UsSkgX_rJKI/AAAAAAAALrs/ZZjzNt36uq4/w862-h684-no/DSC04089.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ttL1II8sFsk/UsSkhgn3cWI/AAAAAAAALsA/5HSPe8w3kwU/w951-h684-no/DSC04095.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OZJkMx8YwRI/UsSkihYJ0WI/AAAAAAAALsE/BFS8I_Bk-hY/w912-h684-no/DSC04096.JPG

This is #6R which is still in real good shape thankfully.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EeWQb5vX4gE/UsSklL7rzwI/AAAAAAAALsU/kQ5KkXTY80M/w912-h684-no/DSC04097.JPG

I left the body suspended on the lift to let the paint set up. Next time out in the shop I'll set the passenger side back down on the bushings and lift the driver side to start the repair on #6L. Hopefully it'll go a bit smoother (and I won't be nearly as hungover).

[SSLance]

The 4" grinder with a new wheel did the trick...It would just fit in between the body and frame and make quick work of my ugly welds.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9XDyvZSUWf4/UshjsVOOh8I/AAAAAAAAL3A/zeX_P60siJQ/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20140104_115009_465.jpg

I even welded back up the little blow through hole that was left over from before then test fit the bushings once again.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KoFwgc5D_eQ/Ushj461713I/AAAAAAAAL3M/ruQ7-CLioA4/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20140104_120301_007.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6A2XZGsOGmY/UshkDf9j6FI/AAAAAAAAL3Y/wFpCEHHt1Wk/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20140104_120322_238.jpg

Much better...

I then put a couple of coats of Extreme Chassis Black on the repaired area to coat it up.

While that was setting up I grabbed a can of Eastwood Internal Frame coating and got busy coating the whole inside of the passenger side of the frame.

http://www.eastwood.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/412x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/p39175.jpg

http://www.eastwood.com/internal-frame-coating-w-spray-nozzle.html

I used air to blow anything loose out of the frame first paying special attention to the areas behind the tires. A BUNCH of crap come out of the rear frame rails. Once nothing else was coming out, I starting sticking the spray nozzle inside holes and spraying. It took a bit to get used to how it sprayed out, but I figured it out pretty quick. It can be a bit messy, but I was more concerned about getting it all completely coated than being tidy. I used one whole can on the passenger side and got to all of the enclosed areas of the frame. I even stuck the nozzle up inside the cage body nut areas to coat up inside them.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-31aDLcG4gJU/UshkaFFMwRI/AAAAAAAAL30/fpGVyi3hx-s/w386-h684-no/IMG_20140104_122914_611.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-F-Trzx1nQGI/UshknKFFadI/AAAAAAAAL4A/3Pe0-mR02CY/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20140104_122932_757.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BVWvs3kHzxs/UshlF1Xd3BI/AAAAAAAAL4Y/x07JYXD4WRA/w386-h684-no/IMG_20140104_123033_385.jpg

One more quick coat of Extreme Chassis Black to cover the frame coating mess back up and it all looks good again.

I used a die to chase the threads on all of my body bolts, even the new zinc coated ones...as I don't want ANY issues when it comes time to re-install the bolts. I then tried to run a tap into the cage nuts and didn't like the way it felt going into the first one. Not being able to securely hold the tap straight as I was starting it because of the frame being in the way was hampering my effort and I did NOT want to screw a nut up at this point. I ended up just grabbing one of the cleaned up bolts, coating it with rust penetrant and using a socket and a long extension to run it up into each body nut and back out again to make sure the threads were good and clean.

Then it was time to let all of the passenger side frame paint cure...and come inside to watch the Chiefs game!

Tomorrow I'll start on #6L.

[GregWeld]

Nice job Lance!!!

[Ron Sutton]

Now I'm learning something. Great photos & posts Lance !

[SSLance]

What is it about frame repair days and hangovers...

Headed out to the shop this morning after plowing the 3' snow drift off the driveway in -15 degree wind chills... Set the passenger side down on the newly painted frame rails and set about raising the driver side as high as I could get it. No matter what I did, I could only get about 3.5" of room above the frame rail to work with. First sign that it was gonna fight me.

Borrowed a body saw and with 5 new blades, set about cutting out the bad stuff and making room for the repair washer.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yKZ7qZnxNxg/UsnRuDzzHfI/AAAAAAAAL7w/0LID0amtWS8/w1213-h684-no/14+-+10.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Z3Lm_wJwYBc/UsnRuFDVGDI/AAAAAAAAL7o/B835ZHSQbMU/w1213-h684-no/14+-+9.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-M2I1DpUu7TQ/UsnRuEh-EyI/AAAAAAAAL7Q/wf0F7kODUI8/w1213-h684-no/14+-+8.jpg

Got a much better fit with this one

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-puMyXTuWwCE/UsnRuNFlMbI/AAAAAAAAL7I/kn8cvHwl1qU/w1213-h684-no/14+-+7.jpg

Turned the welder up just a touch and practiced a stitch or pulse weld method to burn the weld in good without blowing through the frame. It worked pretty well really...until my hand got trapped against the body with my finger on the trigger and blew through an area about the size of a dime!!

I then had to turn the welder down and plug that area back up again. I was going to get away without having to do a lot of grinding until that happened.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BDQDJNRMAQw/UsnRuKyDxMI/AAAAAAAAL64/Pro2aW-4DoI/w1213-h684-no/14+-+6.jpg

Still turned out better than the last one, just takes practice I guess. Cleaning up was a bear, just no way to get any sort of grinder in that tight area. Tool of choice ended up being a die grinder with a cut off wheel on it stuck in from the side.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zofbPFDmxDs/UsnRuAY47TI/AAAAAAAAL6A/FCvVRPi-b1o/w1213-h684-no/14+-+3.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VAyPJqlAU_s/UsnRuNErfaI/AAAAAAAAL6g/daU86AN_TSM/w1213-h684-no/14+-+5.jpg

Then on to the same process, coat the inside of the frame with the Internal Frame Coat then rust encasulator and extreme chassis black on the whole driver side of the frame.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bJeK4cK_e9I/UsnRuOMdXuI/AAAAAAAAL5w/oILiRFFINCs/w1213-h684-no/14+-+2.jpg

Be nice to button this part of the job up next time I'm out in the shop. Need to shim up the #3 bushings, get all of the bolts started, then try to figure out how to move the back of the body to the passenger side to line if back up square with the frame.

[SSLance]

Since the repairs were complete and the frame was coated and painted inside and out, I set about putting the PST PolyGraphite bushings in place and buttoning up the project.

The body sat down on all of the bushing washers at just about the same time except #3. I had a couple of washers on hand with a big enough hole in them to put between the top bushing washer and the body which filled the gap perfectly. A quick coat of paint on them and in they went. While the paint on those and the #1 shims was drying, I set about squaring the rear of the body up with the chassis.

It was 5/8s of an inch to the driver side at the axle centerline...so the body needed to move to the passenger side 5/16s of an inch. Ratchet straps did the trick.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1BoBWe7zR54/UtHRtsK4acI/AAAAAAAAMA0/56dBYIr2eXg/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20140111_122725_052.jpg

I then tried to get the #6 and #7 bolts started...which proved to be a challenge. The factory bolts are 79mm long and pointed on the thread end, the new bolts I bought from Fastenal are 75mm long and square ended. I didn't think that 4mm would make a difference, but in many cases...it did. The trick I finally learned was to use a longer old factory bolt (cleaned up and threads chased) to line the bushing, sleeve, washers, and cage nut up...then back it out and then put the shorter new bolt in its place. In some cases the body had to be sitting on the bushings to get these bolts started. I finally got all of the new bolts in every place but one, which I had to use a painted old bolt that was still in good shape but had I to do this job again, I'd buy 79mm or even a bit longer bolts for sure.

I got the 4 back ones started and had to squeeze the body back square a bit more with the straps and then started getting the rest of the bolts in. Even with the lift it's a bear to get the #3 stub from the body down into the washers and bushing...especially by myself. I finally got my Dad out there to help me...he'd raise and lower the lift that was lifting the body while I'd line things up and get the bolts started. Once a bolt was started I'd move on to the next one. It went pretty quick after that.

Once all bushings, washers and bolts were in place and started, I checked the squareness of the body again and both the front and the back needed a bit more of a tweak. Again a ratchet strap hooked to the body on one side and the frame on the other proved to be the easiest way to nudge it over. Once square I set the body down on the bushings one last time and tightened all of the bolts up starting at the back working my way forward in a crisscross pattern.

I then reattached all of the cleaned up and painted bumper hardware and tailpipe hangers and called it a day. Still haven't put the front inner fenders back in but I have a couple other jobs planned that will be easier with them out.

I checked the fender ride heights with the car snugged down and back on the tires and all 4 corners are within an 1/8" of where they were before I started. If I bounce the front up and down and measure, the fronts are an 1/8" down and the rears an 1/8" up. If I bounce the rear of the car and measure, the rear is down an 1/8" and the front is up an 1/8". I'd say it's right on where it was before, just a bunch more secure in place and square.

Here's some pics of the snugged down bushings...

#7 Left

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-emUN2Li0uLA/UtHRvwVeTTI/AAAAAAAAMBM/J3YrsodsdGE/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20140111_152354_172.jpg

Think this is #4 Right

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-k6OTWPTMMMo/UtHR5PnfD8I/AAAAAAAAMCc/o0r2Vdph6co/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20140111_152553_382.jpg

#3 Right

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QIDTMYJxMPs/UtHR7UIbsoI/AAAAAAAAMCo/0N-4E_k7kFQ/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20140111_152619_354.jpg

#2 Right

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fnwfPY4Qv8M/UtHR8-7W3SI/AAAAAAAAMC4/LMU2iGG-QFY/w386-h684-no/IMG_20140111_152653_443.jpg

#1 Right

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--3ytLyV16Tg/UtHR9_ZHjnI/AAAAAAAAMDA/Cr4vjwiz83o/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20140111_152716_504.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-AJ6USU3LtTA/UtHR_FevtGI/AAAAAAAAMDM/8OnRI1oZHTE/w386-h684-no/IMG_20140111_152731_556.jpg

#1 Left

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ogrisCFGJi4/UtHSBzMWWUI/AAAAAAAAMDo/TboE3iTy_mI/w386-h684-no/IMG_20140111_152759_613.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fhYyX-aOdLc/UtHSEd78f-I/AAAAAAAAMD8/63P3yLOAir0/w386-h684-no/IMG_20140111_153152_503.jpg

BTW, remember this picture of #1 left when the car is lifted on the lift and the front end of the frame sags under the weight of the engine?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Bzk3_eJ9s3Y/UrXMiSLMKBI/AAAAAAAALRA/IPQjvJcrF1E/w1213-h684-no/IMG_20131221_111456_644.jpg

This picture was taken of the same spot with the car lifted on the lift but new tighter bushings holding the frame up and in place.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fhYyX-aOdLc/UtHSEd78f-I/AAAAAAAAMD8/63P3yLOAir0/w386-h684-no/IMG_20140111_153152_503.jpg

Problem solved...

[GregWeld]

Good job Lance and good thinking using the old bolts --- those beveled points are on there for a reason!! HAHAHAHA


It always feels great to complete a project and to have done it well... no matter what it is!

[SSLance]

Thanks Greg.

Three weeks total, start to finish...and most of that was over the holidays as well.

I'm at the point with this car where I don't want to take it off the road for any long term projects. I like to plan them out well enough in advance and have everything I need in place before I start. There were some unknowns with this project, and that's why I put it off for so long. But even with the hiccups, it still went pretty quick and turned out as well as it could have been planned for.

To go back and swap #s 1 and 2 for solid aluminum if I want to would be no big deal now. Figure I'll try it out like this and see what a difference it makes then decide from there.

[SSLance]

Ever since the first time I tried to do a "performance" alignment on my car, I ran into an issue getting all of the negative camber I wanted because my upper control arm bolts weren't long enough. Yesterday I remedied that situation.

Here's what the passenger side looked like with 0.6 degrees of negative camber...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VocrxUOECqQ/Ubr-gjK-sNI/AAAAAAAAKv0/x3ZKb3axUgM/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20130613_195741_556.jpg

See the back bolt there has no threads sticking out of the nut...we even took the washer out between the nut and the control arm to get every last bit we could out of it.

I took the control arm loose and used a C-clamp to press the bolt out of the frame. Here is the factory bolt and it's new replacement side by side. The new bolt is a class 10.9 12mm x 1.75 70mm long, about 15mm longer than the stock bolt.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ok1F4qNjoFY/UtrtBNB4aiI/AAAAAAAAMH8/kRroUUZTb9k/w913-h685-no/DSC04104.JPG

The rest of the parts for the day

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-akvtR7d-XEI/UtrtBK_16oI/AAAAAAAAMIA/9d555ijmGs4/w913-h685-no/DSC04105.JPG

I had the inner fenders out because of my body bushing swap project so I figured it was the easiest time to do this as well but I'm not ready to do a new alignment at the time, so my plan was to just put shims back in place to set the alignment back where it was for now.

I put the bolts in the frame and then ran nuts down and snugged the bolts up tight. I ordered bolts fully threaded because I wanted to be able to use nuts to hold the bolts in place. I then put a couple of washers on the bolts and a shim or two to get the thickness that matched the stack of shims I took out.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-j7OEBejBYfE/UtrtBGoyuPI/AAAAAAAAMIE/uE83wXT7k3E/w913-h685-no/DSC04106.JPG

It took some finagling to get everything in place as I had to hold the UCA in place (still attached to the spindle), run the bolts in, start the nuts and run them down as they drew the bolts through the cross bar. The cross bar would not go over the bolts once they there bolted to the frame first due to the headers.

Lots of thread available now for any adjustment I might need...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-trKT1-Gi5K0/UtrtDp1tOXI/AAAAAAAAMIY/UV9yqvJ-gXU/w913-h685-no/DSC04109.JPG

Snugged up tight

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-owECdaLbPpI/UtrtFmS3GwI/AAAAAAAAMIw/3OConT4Wp4w/w913-h685-no/DSC04111.JPG

Before I put the inner fenders back in, I went ahead and did the driver side as well. I've never ran out of threads on this side, but figured just in case...might as well do it now.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6PtQl4Xie4M/UtrtG6x89UI/AAAAAAAAMI8/4m6z-xAMTVw/w913-h685-no/DSC04113.JPG

On the back bolt, there weren't enough shims to make up the thickness of the nut so I left it out. When it comes time to align it like it needs to be, if there is room then for a nut I'll put one in.

[waynieZ]

Nice job Lance. That will last a long while.

[Ron Sutton]

Looking good Lance. You just keep on making improvements. Did you decide on tires ?

[SSLance]

Pretty much ever since I have had this Quick Performance 9" rear axle, I have fought the passenger side axle seal (or the lack thereof) leaking rear end gear oil. QP uses a Moser Billet Torino style (big Ford) axle end and Moser axles with sealed bearings pressed on them. Their thought is the sealed bearing will stop the gear oil from leaking...it doesn't.

I finally learned that there is a step down inside the end that a National part #473229 seal fits into so I picked a couple of them up last week. Here is what the axle end looks like.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/P6300928a_zps5d4bc414.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/P6300928a_zps5d4bc414.jpg.html)

and here is what it looks like with the seal pressed into place.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-uivJQ72H1tg/Utxo7Z5LtEI/AAAAAAAAMOI/9qfVeSCs45Q/w913-h685-no/DSC04114.JPG

ID of the seal is 1.5" which matches the axle. Sure hope it works...

I cleaned a LOT of leaked gear oil up today. And I just LOVE the smell of gear oil.

Also put a new E-brake cable on the passenger side and test drove the car.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-at-s2_fuFUs/Utxh54zQT-I/AAAAAAAAMNg/EymmTPQek0w/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140119_173349_422.jpg

Everything feels pretty good but it was hard to make a comparison with those old stock size tires on the car, need to get my new rims cleaned up and sealed and some new rubber on them then really take it for a shake down run.

[SSLance]

Looking good Lance. You just keep on making improvements. Did you decide on tires ?

Thanks Ron, just working on a list of little things that haven't stopped me from driving the car but need taken care of. That's what winter in the Midwest is for.

I've picked up 2 more 17"x9.5" rims that match my rears and I'm gonna run Falken 615ks 275/40/17s on all four corners. I'm waiting for the weather to get a bit better before ordering the tires. I'll keep my 8" rims with the almost new Rivals on them and run those on the fronts for regular street driving.

[instro84]

that wierd, you'd think they would have installed a seal even with a sealed bearing.

[GregWeld]

What lubes the bearings if the seal is keeping the lube from getting to them?

[GregWeld]

The Ford 9" I've always done had the seal installed "ahead/to the outside" of the bearing - so it was the last thing that went inside the housing and was held in by the retainer plate. I always had to put the retainer on the axle - then the seal - then the bearing and press the bearing on... then put the race in the housing and then slide that whole works home...

[SSLance]

Well, good question Greg... I'm assuming they had wheel bearing grease inside them when they were initially put together.

The last time I took them out, the silicone I put on the inside of the bearing trying to seal it to the end stuck the seal itself to the housing and when I pulled the axle, I got to see what the inside of the bearing looked like. I just put my thinking cap on and filled the bearing back up with wheel bearing grease and pressed the seal back into place.

Same thing happened this time only this time the entire bearing was full of gear oil because so much of it was getting past the "seal" and into the bearing. I packed it full of grease again and cleaned all of the silicone off of the seal and put it back in place...again.

The bearing feels great, and it's seen some abuse over the years...but I'll keep an eye on it for sure.

Here's what the axle and bearing look like:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-U2CyBtqPY1I/Utx6wZLdS5I/AAAAAAAAMO4/ZAtN8OpGSfU/w913-h685-no/P6300923.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Okl_oR5eP7I/Utx6wbgy9sI/AAAAAAAAMO8/YhGl8EKJcPw/w913-h685-no/P6300924.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-E0PxRkjCVtk/Utx6wadrVwI/AAAAAAAAMO0/sz3oJVmveT0/w913-h685-no/P6300925.JPG

I think I took those pictures the 3rd or 4th time I had them out trying to seal them up.

[SSLance]

The Ford 9" I've always done had the seal installed "ahead/to the outside" of the bearing - so it was the last thing that went inside the housing and was held in by the retainer plate. I always had to put the retainer on the axle - then the seal - then the bearing and press the bearing on... then put the race in the housing and then slide that whole works home...


This is the best picture I have of the setup that holds this axle in place.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/P7210604.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/P7210604.jpg.html)

Basically the brake baking plate is set in place on the T studs, inside the housing is the axle seal, then the bearing, then a little 1/8" spacer, then the retaining place it placed over the T bolts and you put nuts on it through the hole in the end of the axle hub.

Moser themselves is who gave me the seal part number. Apparently they use it all of the time with their ends, bearing and axles.

Not sure why QP refuses to even admit the seals are needed. EVERYONE I know with a QP 9" fights this issue.

[GregWeld]

Maybe your Ford 9" is different than all the others I've ever worked on...






http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Fun%20Fotos/SummitInstructions_adder.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Fun%20Fotos/SummitInstructions_adder.jpg.html)

[SSLance]

Well mine is basically a Moser setup, and they are the ones that gave me the seal number to use. They make the ends, and their axles come with the sealed bearings pressed on them.

I think the difference is in whether is a sealed bearing setup or a old school setup.

[GregWeld]

Yeah -- I wasn't saying you're not doing it right --- it was more a "thinking" post.

[SSLance]

As long as it quits leaking, it's all good!!! :D

Sure seems like the seal should help anyway.

[SSLance]

This weekend I was able to finish up the performance minded wheel alignment, reset my pinion angle and bolt the street tires back up and run down to the car wash to rinse the layer of shop dust off the car. During the test drive I noticed a bit of interference coming from directly under the console and pretty much knew what it was right away. Between lowering the pinion angle 2 degrees and a slight raise of the body from the frame, my drive shaft loop was now just a bit too close to the drive shaft. With the car back up on the crib stands (Man, I've used the heck out of those things since building them) a closer inspection revealed that the loop was just a bit off center and just a bit too close to the yoke.

A couple of large washers were used to space the loop down a bit and that did the trick.

Another longer more intensive test drive proved the fix worked, no more interference.

It was in the 50s outside and sunny, which is warm but not really summer weather. The ride started out a bit springy I'll call it. As with most ride characteristic changes, they were more evident from the rear of the car than the front. There seemed to a be a bit more of a bounce after a bump from the rear than before. The more I drove it though, the better or closer to normal it got. Could have been just getting more heat into the tires or possibly even a little bit of a break in period on the body bushings.

The front felt a little bit different also, but I also made a pretty drastic change to the wheel alignment (-0.6 to -1.6 camber) which I'm sure had an effect too.

My GoPro battery was dead so I couldn't do any data acquisition but it's on the charger and I still might get another test trip in the books this afternoon yet. Plan on checking the front frame horn flex under hard cornering as well as pinion action under hard acceleration, braking and turning.

Overall though, I can not complain about any extra NVH from the Polygraphite Body Bushings. There may be just a touch more feeling from the smallest of bumps transferred through to the driver's seat, but nothing that a pound or two of pressure out of the tires wouldn't alleviate if it really concerned someone. Overall, I'd call the project a success.

[SSLance]

Was able to grab a bit of video today...check this out.

YvWLoyNaWMc

Kind of a big improvement don't you think?

Surely that improvement in rigidity HAS to help with the steering input feel on the autocross course, right?

[DaleTx]

Kind of a big improvement don't you think?

Surely that improvement in rigidity HAS to help with the steering input feel on the autocross course, right?

Great video Lance... big difference with the new Polygraphite Bushings.

I remember when I changed out the stock rubber body and core support bushings on my Camaro with solid aluminum and went for the first drive... it felt like a different car. The steering felt so much more precise.

I wouldn't be afraid to go with aluminum in the future. I didn't notice any excessive harshness in the ride when I switched... it just gave the car a much tighter, more precise feel in straight line and cornering.

:cheers:

[SSLance]

Snow day = Shop day

Since I'm going to run street tires full time this summer, I had to find a way to get my billet wheels looking nice again and more importantly keep them looking that way.

First up, cleaning them up and polishing them. Brake N Parts cleaner on a rag was used to clean the back sides of them up of grease, gear oil and brake fluid then Mother's billet polish was used on the fronts. I've found the best way to do this job is to get a nitrile glove, dip a finger in the polish and work the polish onto the rim with the glove. This lets you control the amount of polish (little goes a LONG way) and also makes it easier to work the polish into all of the nooks and crannies.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7K_0yBNFAsA/UvFB0qkNfDI/AAAAAAAAMU4/9bxTpsRPPEA/w386-h685-no/IMG_20140204_100400_079.jpg

I then take a Mother's Polish cone on an electric drill and work the polish back off the rim. This works pretty good to get the majority of the spots and blemishes off on the first go around. Usually still have some spots left though and I take my glove and work polish back into the areas missed. This makes it a bit easier to watch the spots work out as you work the polish in. I finish it off with a microfiber towel polishing all of the nooks and crannies.

Here's one of the rear rims polished out...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-m_GlHpiX8N8/UvFB8JMEPJI/AAAAAAAAMV0/VTGApAKzXSY/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140204_123412_037.jpg

And here is one of the new rims to compare it too...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-IYDB8ErKoZI/UvFB9oglXLI/AAAAAAAAMWA/AcS0yRD4wII/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140204_123431_197.jpg

I realized that my cell phone takes terrible pictures of shiny billet aluminum...but it was snowing too damn hard to go back into the house to get the good camera so this is all we have for now.

I even did the back sides of all of the rims too...

Mother's billet polish applied

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Eltn64OQPBg/UvFB64M_W1I/AAAAAAAAMVo/aJDeu8DLFbE/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140204_123346_182.jpg

and taken back off...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-73qRKNec3OA/UvFB5VNgqRI/AAAAAAAAMVc/r_7iLVWkUsg/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140204_123338_105.jpg

The next step is a sealant to help keep them nice looking under daily driving duties and after races. I've ordered some of this stuff up and will be applying it to all 6 rims later this week.

http://www.shineseal.com/products.htm

http://www.shineseal.com/images/product%20images/1001_final_150.jpg

It used to be called Zoop Seal but they have reformulated it and now call it Shine seal. It works a bit like Sharkhide, another aluminum sealant that I have used to seal the pontoons on my boat. It seals the porous aluminum surfaces and puts a protective coating on it to keep the aluminum from oxidizing, makes brake dust just blow off and resists water spots making clean up super easy.

There is a cleaner, sealer, slick finish and bright shine metal polish in the kit. They say the sealer goes on kind of like rain-X. Bit like a solvent applied best with a new cloth diaper, let it haze up...then buff it off with a microfiber towel. Once the metal polish is used, the aluminum is supposed to shine as good as if not better than freshly polished billet with no sealant on it. We'll see...

I can't drive it regularly with them the way they were though...this I know. Hopefully this relieves some of the hassle involved with daily driving billet rims. If this doesn't work...they are getting plasti-dipped...

[GregWeld]

SHARK HIDE!


It's what the commercial truckers (and I) use on aluminum....


Very expensive - but works



http://www.sharkhide.com

[SSLance]

Sharkhide protects great, the pontoons on my boat look just like they did three years ago when I applied it, I was just a bit concerned about how it would dull the finish of the finely polished billet aluminum.

The Shine Seal is supposed to not affect the shine at all. We'll see. I still have just a bit of Sharkhide left over...maybe a test is justified?

One wheel with Sharkhide and one with Shine Seal...

[GregWeld]

Well the wheels look fantastic! And that's a lot of work I know...


Yeah --- you wouldn't want them to dull out at all... and now that you have them spiffed up -- doesn't take as much to keep them that way.

[SSLance]

I got the ShineSeal kit in, I ordered the Master Kit which is says is good for 80 sq ft. Here it is along with the diapers I'll use for applying the sealer and the microfiber towels for polishing.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lEYYwuvT5z0/UvfCdI25NFI/AAAAAAAAMho/nkA_O_Hv7ZY/w913-h685-no/DSC04247.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KUBgCy3oil0/UvfCdFD9icI/AAAAAAAAMh4/Jg61xa0z9Zs/w913-h685-no/DSC04248.JPG

The bottle on the left is their Bio Cleaner which I mixed 1 oz with 16 oz of water in the spray bottle. This is used to clean the metal surface of any contaminants before the sealer is applied.

The Metal Sealer is the bottle second from the left, this acts and works very much like Sharkhide. It's the sealer that gets rock hard and protects the aluminum from anything penetrating it. The third bottle from the left is the Slick Finish, this may be what separates this kit from the other aluminum finishes on the market. It goes on like a wax but you don't let it dry on the surface you just keep polishing on it until it is all taken back off of the metal. It's the cat's meow... The 4th bottle from the left is a Brite Shine Metal polish that you use should you ever need to clean the Metal Sealer back off of the aluminum. I guess if you ever wanted to polish a shine back onto the surface you'd clean the sealer off with this, then polish, then reapply.

I cleaned the outsides and the insides of all 6 wheels with the Bio Cleaner and a microfiber towel. This wasn't a big deal in my case because I had just polished all of these wheels with Mother's Billet polish so they were already what I'd call very clean but the directions said to so I did.

I then used a diaper to apply the sealer to the outsides of all 6 wheels. It goes on kind of like Rain-X, is very solvent smelling, and is tacky and kind of hard to tell if you are getting an even coat on, especially in all of the nooks and crannies most wheels have. I'd much recommend anyone that is doing this project to have the wheels off of the car laying flat and everything that can be taken out of the way (center caps etc) off the wheels as well. Once I was fairly sure that all of the outside surfaces had a good coat on them, I flipped the wheels over and coated the hoops on the inside. I didn't spend the time or materials to do the back sides of the spokes as they'll never be seen. Then it had to dry and set up. I ended up letting them set for about 24 hours. You can tell if it's not set up by running your finger on the surface, if it smears...it still needs more time.

After BioClean, before Sealer

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Sy20_JlcCLg/UvfCdKYskUI/AAAAAAAAMhs/4hyJzLNO7kw/w913-h685-no/DSC04249.JPG

Same wheel after Sealer applied but not dry yet.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-knYftow3grY/UvfChkGVt3I/AAAAAAAAMig/qSy3ig1_Nio/w913-h685-no/DSC04254.JPG


Brand new wheel before Sealer

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-fRU1RrDW5TU/UvfCg0MQd9I/AAAAAAAAMiQ/Aoofxdt-a8Y/w913-h685-no/DSC04253.JPG

Same wheel after sealer

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WHickQ6z1kY/UvfCkkgw2YI/AAAAAAAAMjA/XQhVLo4hYAM/w913-h685-no/DSC04258.JPG

All 6 caps...can you tell which two are brand new?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-IG7NMqr7H9g/UvfCmG6Ob1I/AAAAAAAAMjI/VCc22udNnw0/w913-h685-no/DSC04260.JPG



This morning I went out to see if the sealer was dry, and it was...so I set about applying the Slick Finish. Before the Slick finish, the surfaces were kind of tacky...well not tacky but your finger still stuck to it just a bit as you drug it across. The Slick Finish goes on pretty easy and you just apply it and polish it back off working in small areas as you go along. It turns that somewhat sticky surface into a smooth as glass almost Chrome like finish. It is unbelievable... It also lets you polish smooth the top layer of the sealer if there were any areas where you got the sealer a bit too thick. Those areas showed up after the first coat of slick finish is applied and polished out and you just go back over them with a bit more Slick Finish and a clean microfiber and it polishes the surface out super smooth. This is the step that really finishes off this process nice and I believe it HAS to make the surfaces of the wheels MUCH easier to maintain nice looking. The highly polished areas of the wheels feel just like a chrome surface now.

After I was certain the outsides of all of the wheels were as polished as I could get them I flipped them over and applied the slick finish to the insides of the hoops as well. Probably over kill and unnecessary but remember my goal is to get these wheels as maintenance free as I could get them and that includes keeping the insides of the hoops as nice looking as they can be kept as well.

Here is a close up of a used wheel done...Sorry, it's taken with my phone but again, it'll have to do for now.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3GYzHtPISZo/UvewzGe8-MI/AAAAAAAAMgY/q6pJle4XFqw/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140209_104612_257.jpg

The camera makes it looks more scratched than it is...to the eye they look pretty dern good.

Here is a new wheel all done...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-33GaNpQkpgE/Uvew1NY7H-I/AAAAAAAAMgk/uHgjUKMhowM/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140209_104624_317.jpg

As you can see it looks great. I wouldn't hesitate to put this treatment on any brand new aluminum wheel...in fact, I'd recommend that you do apply it to your new wheels as soon as you can. The product does nothing to the shine of a billet wheel except protect it and keep it great looking much easier.

I did the insides and outsides of (2) 17x8s and (4) 17x9.5s and this is what I've got left of the kit.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NsGFgyS4MHo/Uve13fBltvI/AAAAAAAAMg4/51UoP_MLe7Y/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140209_110753_054.jpg

Plenty of Bio Cleaner left over which they say you can also use to clean the wheels with now to maintain them, probably enough Metal Sealer to do the outsides of the wheels one more time, the Slick finish it's hard to see but there is still lots of it left also, I barely used any out of the bottle and never even opened the Brite Shine Metal polish.

And here's the instructions that came with the kit.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_tnJbyTgCpg/Uve1-6cGJ_I/AAAAAAAAMhU/_kZTLq8zNgg/w521-h685-no/IMG_20140209_110821_987.jpg

Later on after I've driven with the wheels and got them dirty a few times I'll revisit and update with how they have held up. I think it's gonna be good though, it HAS to be better than maintaining just the bare billet aluminum.

[waynieZ]

Wow what a difference the front end upgraded poly bushings made.
The wheels look great, you did a nice job on them.

[Che70velle]

Lance I just read through your entire thread, and I have to say nice work man. Perseverance pays off in the end. Love your car!

[SSLance]

Thanks... I like to say that it keeps me out of the bars... but really I just like making something better with my own hands and this just happens to be my canvas as of late.

Best part is, I get to drive it, hard...after I finish making it better.

[SSLance]

With Ron Sutton's help, we picked out some brake upgrade parts for Barney and I got them installed this weekend.

We decided to upgrade the front calipers to the larger metric calipers with the 2.75" piston and use some EBC YellowstuffR pads. This should increase my front brake force from 1804 pounds with the R4 pads and stock calipers to 1973 pounds with EBC pads which will hopefully be a bit more street friendly while at the same time work well for autocross. If I want more braking or if the fronts tend to lock up significantly faster than the rears I can upgrade the rear pads down the road.

Best part was, this was all bolt in parts, no modifications or geometry adjustments needed after the upgrade.

Here's the stock D154 caliper with a 2.5" piston

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--gAAKGeTXYo/UwER6hFy9vI/AAAAAAAAMoE/hTpG2AALJ7w/w913-h685-no/DSC04308.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EfgQWuOIb7c/UwER6pOMvVI/AAAAAAAAMoI/5VruZsDoDpw/w913-h685-no/DSC04309.JPG

And here's the new Afco Large Metric caliper with a 2.75" piston

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-FOKy5hTUgpc/UwER6v99amI/AAAAAAAAMoQ/H02KtdQ2qgw/w913-h685-no/DSC04307.JPG

They aren't sexy looking, but were bolt ins that didn't require any other modifications and provide a significant increase in braking force.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-U5kGFdwB3kc/UwER8POuWII/AAAAAAAAMo0/3Q-DyS435PM/w913-h685-no/DSC04310.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-UR1tMyYyUtA/UwER9M5_wEI/AAAAAAAAMok/HN6v_SPnZS8/w913-h685-no/DSC04312.JPG

[GregWeld]

There ya go Lance!


I personally put on big brakes years ago on the Nomad... and I only did it for looks really... since the car never saw any action... and I used to laugh about all the "show cars" that began putting on these huge multi piston drilled and slotted systems. Guys used to ask me about my brakes and my smartass response was that all those big brakes didn't mean squat because the two piston / single piston combo I took off were MORE THAN capable of overcoming the tires traction.

Obviously for racing etc -- there's the issue of heat dissipation and blah blah blah --- but for the street and mild track use... I really wonder how much brake we really need or use.

[GregWeld]

Thanks... I like to say that it keeps me out of the bars... but really I just like making something better with my own hands and this just happens to be my canvas as of late.

Best part is, I get to drive it, hard...after I finish making it better.




“I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted.”


― W.C. Fields

[BigJoe]

Thanks... I like to say that it keeps me out of the bars... but really I just like making something better with my own hands and this just happens to be my canvas as of late.

Best part is, I get to drive it, hard...after I finish making it better.


yeah i tell my wife that, she just laughs. After building god knows how many cars, bikes, guns, etc i don't need to make excuses anymore

[waynieZ]

“I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted.”


― W.C. Fields

I knew I liked WC Fields for a good reason !

[Ron Sutton]

Baseball player Tug McGraw ... well know as a party guy & ladies man ... modified it to say, "Ninety percent I'll spend on good times, women and Irish Whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste. "

[SSLance]

I dealt with a power steering fluid leak most of last year, it appears that I overheated the fluid during a track day early in the year and cooked an O-ring or two in the process. So I removed the PS pump and warrantied it out for a new one...and last night reinstalled the new one with new O-rings on the high pressure line. I also plumbed in a Power Steering fluid cooler at the same time. A friend found the cooler for me, I believe it came off of a mid 80s GM truck. I didn't get to take too many pictures during the install as I was in a hurry to get it done so I could get a road test in of the new brakes and wheels and tires (more on that in a minute) while the weather is nice. Here is the cooler hanging from the bolt that holds the center brace of the core support in front of the AC condenser.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-StCsp7-bUyw/UwiQYuA9ryI/AAAAAAAAM2E/H658y-0AAgw/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140221_191946_362.jpg

This is taken with the radiator and condenser laid back towards the engine and shows the PS cooler mounted.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7yb3UX_0JSQ/UwiQYl_inaI/AAAAAAAAM2A/j31BlXSNuEI/w386-h684-no/IMG_20140221_191924_334.jpg

The cool thing was there was room where the AC lines come out of the air box to run the PS lines so I didn't have to cut any holes in the air box. Now the cooler is right in the middle of the air box and with the electric fans on they'll draw maximum amount of air right over the cooler all of the time which should help it do it's job real well.

All I have left to do is flush the old fluid left in the steering box out and fill with new fluid and that job is complete.

Then I can road test my tires and brakes...

Last years track tires vs this years...

Old track tire on the right, new track (and everyday) tire on the left

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HeBnt7CiVQA/Uwee1Ty49kI/AAAAAAAAMzU/EuF1j8CLGVk/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140221_124549_406.jpg

Overall dimensions are just about exactly the same, the Falken has a half inch extra tread width though (hope they fit).

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IYEkv_WB2sM/UweethY8SOI/AAAAAAAAMzI/9xcWt6UDeA8/w317-h562-no/IMG_20140221_124519_426.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-rzPwp83iPoU/UweeBvKaSDI/AAAAAAAAMyY/wLc5N9c88Bc/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140221_124222_696.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-kUcsO_qKHFY/UwiQXcq3YrI/AAAAAAAAM1o/91xPvcacSMM/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140221_180055_860.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wWjw6fE4YvI/UwiQYX6uz5I/AAAAAAAAM18/qIO6fjMqyKE/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140221_180120_485.jpg

I'm betting...that these street tires give me just about as much grip and stability as the used Hoosiers did last season. Plus, they look a TON better and I can drive them to and from the racetrack.

[GregWeld]

Not to scare you --- or anyone else for that matter.... just sayin'


STREET / Track tires off the R8 after ONE DAY of tracking it.


I was lucky to be able to replace all 4 -- let alone be able to "drive home".




http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/The%20Road%20to%20SEMA/file-3.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/The%20Road%20to%20SEMA/file-3.jpg.html)

[SSLance]

If I do that to these tires autocrossing Greg, I've got larger problems than just tires... LOL...


Put about 50 miles on her today, got the brake pads bedded in and shook everything down. Man...this car rides and drives NICE now...that's all I have to say about it. :)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-tJkbWMQ6fl8/Uwjx259aglI/AAAAAAAAM3I/6ynE-Z614G8/w913-h685-no/DSC04356.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iNczG-ljmNk/Uwjx2-vU8NI/AAAAAAAAM3M/yXrGtkAv6No/w913-h685-no/DSC04357.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-_KulHJApGXE/Uwjx4teCwhI/AAAAAAAAM3U/EZUeoarq__Y/w913-h685-no/DSC04358.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Piy-KookbGM/Uwjx7fc_9iI/AAAAAAAAM30/bbKvCVzX9Qw/w913-h685-no/DSC04362.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3BX_L56Ek0s/Uwjx6hQTsyI/AAAAAAAAM3w/CBhoJRWbe_c/w913-h685-no/DSC04361.JPG



Very happy with the fit, finish and form factor of the wheel tire combination. No rubs anywhere and it just flat sticks in high speed spirited corners.

[SSLance]

So we now have 3 autocross events under our belt this season plus a test n tune session. That equals right at 30 runs so far on the new setup. Everything has gone pretty well with all of the off season upgrades. The power steering cooler seems to have worked as there are no growling noises coming from under the hood even after back to back runs. The body seems to be still sitting squarely on the chassis and overall everything feels a bit stiffer and more predictable on course. The brakes feel fantastic...just love how they just grip better and better the hotter they get. They don't dust up that much anymore once they were broke in which is just an added bonus. And the tires...I can't say enough about the tires. I believe even given apples to apples the car would be faster on these Falkens than it was on the Hoosier A6s. The car is just so much easier and more predictable to drive on them, not to mention being able to drive to the course, drop the air pressure a bit...then drive home. No more trailering... Love Love Love the tires....

Now for the bad...I noticed Saturday as I was backing the car out of the garage to get it ready...a puddle of rear end gear oil coming off of the right rear tire once again. I had put a seal in the axle housing end and it kept everything dry for a bit over a month and 25 autocross runs...but the leak is back. This also had an effect on my runs yesterday as I'm certain the brake pads on that wheel are oil soaked as well which would render them useless.

I also notice a bit of a shudder under a load on trips home from the track. It's like something in the rear end doesn't play nice when it's been subjected to the severe duty for a while. If I had to guess, it's an axle bearing getting hot.

I've also drove through the clutch a couple of times yesterday, slipping after shifting into second gear after the starts. It doesn't slip anymore on the track and hasn't shown any signs of slipping on the road, but it was the original clutch that came with the T56 supposedly out of a 1999 LT1 camaro with 59,000 miles on it...so a disc replacement may be in my future.

My next project is to pull the axles and do a crucial exam of everything rear end related and see if I need to replace any parts and try like hell to figure out a way to seal that rear axle up once and for all.

Here are some pictures from yesterday's event. Had a ball out there...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wM8_iZ5Y0pE/U2d3c85S3jI/AAAAAAAANko/4JDRTgtGty4/w845-h563-no/ejhfJdG+-+Imgur.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zC6TulyPEyk/U2d5BGxKChI/AAAAAAAANlQ/_p9BIq-Zu6M/w926-h563-no/Event+3+b.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zFr46PBvu0g/U2d3XjS0kyI/AAAAAAAANjo/9a3OKHYbo64/w1001-h563-no/13923918527_6210822b76_o.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3A_RHA4kMSY/U2d5A_rheqI/AAAAAAAANlI/oj5ESonhIUQ/w825-h563-no/Event+3+a.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oVIB80JESds/U2d3X2x3AxI/AAAAAAAANjc/7uTle4kqANQ/w848-h563-no/14107591571_c79abaf031_b.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qUfT_Rx5zWE/U2d3cPrBowI/AAAAAAAANkk/i5KGnq8S2cI/w848-h563-no/14111188024_b7bd004e05_o.jpg


And here are the videos of the 5 runs from yesterday.

PFpGXDHWWts

[SSLance]

So I refreshened the whole 9", new bearings and seals throughout and once I was certain the leaks were stopped I replaced the rear brake pads with EBC Yellowstuffs. Yesterday was my first autocross since the changes.

So, how much does an aluminum rim flex when pushed real hard with sticky tires on it?

About this far...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-KTt19-3iB1c/U4uXcn6oghI/AAAAAAAAOZA/V-Ju8mUadVc/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140601_152149_516.jpg

Thought I had enough room so I left the 1/8" spacers out when I put it all back together this last time, apparently I was wrong.

No major damage though, I was checking it after each run and it wasn't until the 4th run that it burned through the shine seal on the rim...that stuff is TOUGH.

Here's the video, not for the squeamish if you don't like the sound of metal on metal...

http://youtu.be/ZMqR7Cl6XRE

Here are the raw time results for the day.

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2014/2014event4_raw.htm

and here are the results by class

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2014/2014event4_fin.htm

Pretty typical finish for me as of late. Had I not hit those 2 cones I would have finished 29th I think, right in between two BMW M3s. I was working on a few things as a driver and really helped the car handle better but at the cost of taking out a few innocent cones along the way.

[65_LS1_T56]

Probably flexing the axle more than the rim itself.

Car looks great in the pics Lance :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Probably flexing the axle more than the rim itself.

Car looks great in the pics Lance :thumbsup:




Agree -- the axle flange... Although that appears to be a cast wheel... and I would think it would be cracking if flexed that much. IDK

[SSLance]

They are Billet Specialties Rallys, Forged I think but can't find the specs for sure.

http://www.billetspecialties.com/wheels/rt-performer-rally/wheels/rally/

If it was the axle flange flexing, wouldn't the brake rotor be getting into the backing plate as well?

[SSLance]

Car looks great in the pics Lance :thumbsup:


Thanks Aaron. I'm really having a ball driving it this season, both on the track and off.

[GregWeld]

They are Billet Specialties Rallys, Forged I think but can't find the specs for sure.

http://www.billetspecialties.com/wheels/rt-performer-rally/wheels/rally/

If it was the axle flange flexing, wouldn't the brake rotor be getting into the backing plate as well?



The rotor is smaller in diameter and is INSIDE the wheel so shouldn't be hitting anything.

[GregWeld]

Lance -- I don't know much about suspension and handling --- and there's guys on here that do.. but it looks to me like you are experiencing quite a bit of body roll... and that's probably not a light car... so by the time you put some side loads on there -- and then add the weight of the car (looks like lots of daylight between the top of the tire and the fender lip in a big turn)... it's got to be pounding the wheels -- the tire sidewall - the axle flange - and your seals and bearings.

Not sure what can be done to level that out... whether that's stiffer springs - or more anti roll bar or a combination of those parts.

[SSLance]

Trust me Greg, Ron Sutton and I have been all over getting the car to roll less. Car weighs 3511 pounds and is rolling a LOT less than it used to before we added Ron's magic to it, but it still needs a much stiffer front sway bar, and that is money I'm just not able to throw at it right now.

Working on getting some solid endlinks to the front sway bar soon, every little bit helps. Not sure if you've ever ridden in an autocross car that really handles but it delivers an incredible amount of force on every part of the car, rolling over or not. I'm not surprised the wheels are flexing, I was just a bit surprised they flexed that far. Nothing a little work with a grinder won't fix.

The spacers I had in there forever worked to make room for everything but they were the cause of a slight vibration at highway speeds I was chasing down. Taking them out fixed that, but caused this issue. I'll get it fixed up soon.

[Vegas69]

Forgeline told me that a wheel will flex 2-3mm under extreme load.

I'd say this is your red flag for the axle leak. You need to get those axles moving in and out less. Check the end play with a dial indicator and see what you have.

Car looks great by the way. My first car was a 1981 Monte with a 327. Totaled it....haha

[ScottieB]

Good looking car. I liked the photo shoot at Smithville Lake! Hope to see you around the northland.

[SSLance]

Forgeline told me that a wheel will flex 2-3mm under extreme load.

I'd say this is your red flag for the axle leak. You need to get those axles moving in and out less. Check the end play with a dial indicator and see what you have.

Car looks great by the way. My first car was a 1981 Monte with a 327. Totaled it....haha


This setup uses the Ford Big bearing axle end with the big sealed bearing, then a spacer the same thickness as the brake backing plate then the retainer plate to hold it all in place. I just replaced everything with new but even with the old wore bearings there was no discernable axle movement at all. Also the drivers side has never leaked gear oil, it has always been the passenger side. Pretty sure I've got that covered now with the correct axle seal plus the bearing with the O-ring around the outside of it.

I have a hard time believing the axle flange is flexing that much either, that thing is massive and it seems to me that if the axle flange was flexing that much, the brake rotor would be flexing with it and it would be contacting the dust shield which is connected to the housing and I saw no marks of it ever touching last time I had it apart. Not saying it isn't moving a little bit, but I think this is more the wheel flexing than anything else.

I can fix this issue with 30 seconds of grinder work so it really isn't a big deal, but I posted about it just to show the evidence of just how far the wheel moves under the kind of duress I'm putting it through.

My first Monte was a 1978...I put a 4 bolt main 350 in it and totaled it as well... :whistling:

[SSLance]

Good looking car. I liked the photo shoot at Smithville Lake! Hope to see you around the northland.

Thanks Scottie, do you live up North as well? I live not too far from where those pictures were taken.

I'm always around, you should come out and watch us race sometime.

[Vegas69]

Roller or Tapered bearing?

[Track Junky]

Could it be that the differential is moving from side to side?

[SSLance]

Sealed roller bearings, these are the new bearings pressed onto the axles before we pressed the keeper rings on.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-31ZgsPddMVs/U3U5mP9ZKxI/AAAAAAAAN1o/E5sKl9dbMf0/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140515_134049_479.jpg

This picture was taken with the old bearings and rings on the axle, we were setting it up to cut the old keepers off of the axle. It shows just how beefy the 31 spline Moser axles are.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-za1MsdqK1xs/U3U5t_-frxI/AAAAAAAAN2A/okdDemnl3aY/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140515_125928_305.jpg

[SSLance]

Could it be that the differential is moving from side to side?

Are you talking about the whole axle housing moving? If so I'm sure it is a little bit, but the tires are actually closer to the frame than that rim is to the shock mount and there is just a touch of evidence of the tire rubbing the frame. Plus, that shock mount is attached to the axle housing so if it moves, the shock mount is going to move with it.

When I took the spacers out and put the grinder to the shock mounts, I thought I had plenty of clearance on both sides. Once I put the wheels back on I discovered that my index finger would fit between the rim and shock mount on the passenger side and only my pinkie finger would fit between the rim and the shock mount on the driver side. I figured it would still be enough though which was a mistake. 30-60 seconds with a grinder will fix this so it really isn't a big issue...but I thought it was interesting to show just how much the rim is flexing under pressure.

Also, there was NO marks on the rim after the first three runs, it wasn't until after the 4th run the rubbing actually burnt through the shine seal coating on the rim...so even though it sounded HORRIBLE, it must have just been touching, not really grinding into the mount.

[Track Junky]

Gotcha. Not familiar with those cars so I may have misunderstood the first time. I imagine if the differential was moving side to side you be doing something more like rubbing quarter panel.
Interesting info on wheel flex. One would think that the tire would take lateral load before any rim flex.

[GregWeld]

Yeah Lance - didn't realize you had Moser axles - thought maybe they were stock...

You're probably right that it's the wheel and just not enough clearance. Cut to cure! LOL


Just keep talking to Ron -- he'll have that turned into a race car as soon as you hand over the money!!! HAHAHAHAHA

RE: Ride-alongs @ AutoX.... Let's see.... FINCH - HOBAUGH - POZZI - LACATA - SHIPKA... I've suckered them all into letting me pee myself in their cars.

Oh yeah - they can put some pressure on equipment! But there cars also corner much flatter...

[Vegas69]

You aren't going to like it but that is most of your movement and what's causing your leak. I went through the same thing on my car. I changed from a roller to a tapered as that's what is recommended for any performance application. A tapered bearing keeps the axle in a more fixed position.

I'd space it out another 1/8 and see if it leaks again or begins to rub. If it does, this is where I'd go.

[SSLance]

I think I've got the leak fixed finally... This last axle seal I put in was a 1.531 ID and the one before that was a 1.562 ID. Plus these bearing have the O-ring around the outside of them to stop anything that happens to get past those axle seals.

I've got about 500 miles on it and one autocross event and so far everything is still dry as a bone. **crossing fingers**

I know what the next step up is and it's a major one...I'll replace these bearings once a year for a while before I step up to hacking those axle ends off and going with something different. There are a lot of other things I'd rather spend money on making this car go faster than that.

Greg, I think side force is side force and I can't imagine the car cornering flatter is going to put any less pressure on the outside wheels...but I hear ya and trust me I'm working on a solution to lessen the body roll.

I'm as far as I can go with easier bolt on solutions, the next step up is again a big one and I need to stop repairing rear ends and replacing clutches long enough to save up the coin for a proper sway bar upgrade.

[Sieg]

Greg, I think side force is side force and I can't imagine the car cornering flatter is going to put any less pressure on the outside wheels...but I hear ya and trust me I'm working on a solution to lessen the body roll.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-yKTU5IzKQf8/U4xiF2dnmbI/AAAAAAAAOb0/w0CgjnYF6lc/w963-h642-no/eNOKMwl+-+Imgur.jpg

Looking at the right rear and the weight on the left rear..........are you sure about that? :sieg:

[SSLance]

I'm pretty sure that is an optical illusion and the right rear is not up in the air in that picture if that is what you are referring to!! lol...

When I first saw that picture, I immediately went to the high res version of it to make sure.

http://imgur.com/a/oK198#24

If the car was cornering flatter and the inside rear was in the track more, I'd be carrying even more speed and still putting a tremendous amount of pressure on the outside wheel. The wheel is still going to flex until the tire breaks traction and begins to slide.

Besides, Ron likes the inside rear to roll up some to let it release from the track to help the car corner. He is more concerned about the front not rolling as much moreso than the rear.

[Sieg]

I'm pretty sure that is an optical illusion and the right rear is not up in the air in that picture if that is what you are referring to!! lol...

I remember when the VW Rabbits hit the autocross scene and everybody was laughing at how they carried the inside rear through a corner..........until they realized the were getting their arses handed to them by a 3-wheeler.........I'm not sure it works like that with American Iron though. :sieg:

I'm no Ron Sutton but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once and the corner to corner transfer looks a little much........in my feeble opinion. :lol:

[SSLance]

Pre-Ron Sutton Race Technology setup

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-k_xLD1iH2xo/U0QAZPOl7YI/AAAAAAAANVg/hofiCaMEFcQ/w433-h314-no/Before+6.jpg

Talk about corner to corner transfer... :twak:

[Sieg]

Pre-Ron Sutton Race Technology setup

Talk about corner to corner transfer... :twak:

..........talk about a Cone Plow.

:underchair:

[SSLance]

Some of the 76 cars my heavy, old, leaning too much, american iron, hot rod beat in raw time in last Sunday's event include the following:

1996 BMW M3
2005 Volkswagen Jetta GLI
1995 Dodge Neon ACR
2012 Mini Cooper
2013 Scion FR-S
2005 BMW 330CI
2006 Mazda MX-5
2001 Porsche 911 Turbo
2005 Subaru Impreza WRX Sti
1970 Nissan 280 Z (full blown race car)
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo
1997 Mazda Miata (on R-comp tires no less)
2014 Nissan 370Z
2011 Chevrolet Camaro
2014 Ford Fiesta ST
2012 Ford Mustang


The full list can be seen here.
http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2014/2014event4_raw.htm



And that was with the crew chief letting the rear rim ride against the shock mount and the driver killing at least two cones on every fast run (2 second penalty each). I can't wait to see the kill list once the crew chief and the driver get their act together... :trophy-1302:



Class results are here, this shows each run time plus penalties sorted by class.

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2014/2014event4_fin.htm

[Sieg]

Ain't always the arrow is it? :unibrow:

I took down many a favored competitor with my little red 'wagon' including on this wet day the club president in his '77 Porsche Turbo Carrera.

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Other/Cycles-Cars/i-rvHMjbz/2/M/File0014-M.jpg

[SSLance]

Toyota Celica Wagon? Love the fog lights!

It's fun watching the veterans that can climb into any car and go fast and just about as fun watching the guys with the high dollar sports cars that can't drive worth a lick... I'm only 2 1/2 years into this and still learning a ton...but eyebrows are being raised :unibrow: For both the car and the driver I suppose...

We'll get 'em next time. In the meantime I'll be ripping the trans out tonight to survey the clutch situation and make a decision on a parts order.

I'm signed up for a full day SCCA Starting Line School with Evolution Driving School instructors on June 28th and then we get real busy with 7 SCCA events in 36 days and a USCA 3 day event out of town right in the middle of that stretch. Gotta get everything tuned up for the summer.

[Sieg]

Toyota Celica Wagon? Love the fog lights!

It's fun watching the veterans that can climb into any car and go fast and just about as fun watching the guys with the high dollar sports cars that can't drive worth a lick... I'm only 2 1/2 years into this and still learning a ton...but eyebrows are being raised :unibrow: For both the car and the driver I suppose...

We'll get 'em next time. In the meantime I'll be ripping the trans out tonight to survey the clutch situation and make a decision on a parts order.

I'm signed up for a full day SCCA Starting Line School with Evolution Driving School instructors on June 28th and then we get real busy with 7 SCCA events in 36 days and a USCA 3 day event out of town right in the middle of that stretch. Gotta get everything tuned up for the summer.

Corolla hatchback FTW! :lol: Those Cibie driving lights were quite functional for mini-gumball events. :secret: 2TC 1600cc hemi head with side draft Webers and TRD tid bits. Best feature of the car was the custom adjustable indexed billet chamber plates I had built for the front towers. Once at the autox course I'd jack it up and set the chamber at -2.5*. Even had Recaro seats out of a '76 911. :D

[SSLance]

I thought after I posted it was probably a Corolla... Nice!!!

[Ron Sutton]

Probably flexing the axle more than the rim itself.

Bingo ! :thumbsup:

[Ron Sutton]

Some of the 76 cars my heavy, old, leaning too much, american iron, hot rod beat in raw time in last Sunday's event include the following:

1996 BMW M3
2005 Volkswagen Jetta GLI
1995 Dodge Neon ACR
2012 Mini Cooper
2013 Scion FR-S
2005 BMW 330CI
2006 Mazda MX-5
2001 Porsche 911 Turbo
2005 Subaru Impreza WRX Sti
1970 Nissan 280 Z (full blown race car)
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo
1997 Mazda Miata (on R-comp tires no less)
2014 Nissan 370Z
2011 Chevrolet Camaro
2014 Ford Fiesta ST
2012 Ford Mustang


The full list can be seen here.
http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2014/2014event4_raw.htm



And that was with the crew chief letting the rear rim ride against the shock mount and the driver killing at least two cones on every fast run (2 second penalty each). I can't wait to see the kill list once the crew chief and the driver get their act together... :trophy-1302:



Class results are here, this shows each run time plus penalties sorted by class.

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2014/2014event4_fin.htm

Love it. In an 85 monte Carlo. Absolutely love it!

[SSLance]

I owe it all to you Ron!!!

Can't wait to see how we do once we iron out all the kinks still plaguing us. :trophy-1302:

[SSLance]

Man... I'm beat. :o Hopefully this solves one of the kinks that have plaguing this car, the clutch slipping under extreme loads.

With just 4 hours of sleep and a hangover, I set out to install my new Ram Performance Powergrip clutch Saturday morning. Things went pretty well until it came time to slip the trans back in place. I didn't properly attach the trans to the trans jack when I took it out, the middle portion of the T56 has a ridge along the bottom front to back which made it flop around like a fish out of water. It worked fine for taking it out but not so much for lining the input shaft up through the clutch disc and pilot bearing. After fighting it for a while we finally got it in. While slipping the clutch fork in over the throw out bearing, it didn't go in as I had remembered. I fought with it, finally got it to slip into place but it just didn't look right. The fork was in a different position than it was with the old clutch. It seemed like it was in place though so I shouldered on. Finished up everything else, cross member, driveshaft, exhaust, wires, shifter...then pushed the clutch in and it went halfway in, popped and fell to the floor, and didn't come back up again.

I was pissed...and very tired, so I quit for the day. After a shower, a meal and a rest on the couch I found myself going to bed at 8 pm...on a Saturday night. Bright and early Sunday morning, I went out to investigate WTF was going on. Pulled the slave cylinder and the pushrod fell out...I guess I missed the cup on the fork with it when I put it in. Still not trusting the clutch fork itself, I pulled the complete trans out to check the clutch fork to throw out bearing fitment. Convinced it was all as it should be, in went the trans again. This time I used a 2x6 under the trans that reached the flat parts on the front and rear part of the case letting me easily use the adjusting screws on the jack to position the trans exactly in place and it slid right into position. Reinstall everything cross member, driveshaft, exhaust, wires, shifter...clutch pedal feels great...start the car in neutral all good, press the clutch in...about halfway down a grinding banging noise happens. A BAD grinding banging noise. :!: The car will start in 4th gear, but not in 1st...the noise happens right about when the clutch is releasing.

We had a visitation service to go to so I cleaned up and left for a few hours. But before leaving I read up on the Camaro boards about an issue when installing an aftermarket clutch kit in LT1 style applications. Apparently the new pressure plates are thicker than the stock ones and an issue comes up where the clutch fork hits the pressure plate. This is what I found when I pulled the trans for the THIRD time this weekend.

Check out the marks on the clutch fork and all of the metal in the bell housing I found upon removal.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-z0lCoSkZWiY/U5Tr8yZdmUI/AAAAAAAAOjI/v5aGht50DDw/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140608_180424_497.jpg

And I didn't run it like that very long either.

I ground an 1/8" off of the bottom of the Tee pivot block and rounded in smooth the ridges on the Clutch fork where it was rubbing the pressure plate just in case.

This is where it had rubbed on the pressure plate, the banging was from the edges of the bolt heads hitting the clutch fork ridges.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dgNg1t03Wec/U5TsETYe3GI/AAAAAAAAOjY/Ag5zKkjLkVo/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140608_180450_130.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-on2aZYuvlL0/U5TsI3lz3EI/AAAAAAAAOjw/B_hfE6F4ouc/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140608_180505_757.jpg

and where the yellow marks are on the side of the fork is where it was hitting the edge of the pressure plate and the bolt heads...the area that I ground down just a bit to make sure.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eoxd2w3UhgU/U5T1HBzpeUI/AAAAAAAAOkE/KVLmeQIsE-I/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140608_184318_918.jpg

It all went back together pretty smoothly only this time I stopped after the cross member was in place and started the car (open headers, no driveshaft) and ran it through the gears to be sure. It all felt good.

I test drove the car tonight and it all works great, no strange noises and the clutch engages and releases just like it should. The pedal travel and engagement spot seem very similar to where they were before, so I'm gonna call it good. There is no chatter, really the clutch feels almost exactly like the old one I took out (except hopefully it won't slip now under extreme load). I just have to break it in now. I still have to put the interior back together but that won't take long.

Why do things have to be so difficult with cars sometimes...

[GregWeld]

If I've said it once on Lat G - I've said it a 1000 times... Ya gotta cut to cure... and I've rarely come across a part I didn't have to hot rod.

Your situation was - sadly - more difficult because you can't see the clearances etc... but bet you were thanking your lucky stars that you have a lift and a tranny jack!! WOW... Think about doing that laying on a creeper!

[SSLance]

Screw that... :snapout:

I couldn't have done it...not three times in one weekend anyway for sure.

I have a REAL busy schedule coming up with the car that starts later this month. Getting the clutch issue fixed before that busy time starts was crucial, that's why the push to get it done fast was in place. The setbacks were killer...but I had to push through.

Now I have 3 weeks to break the clutch in and work out a few other bugs before the busy summer racing season starts in earnest.

I did finally get my emergency brake issue fixed for good while I had the cross member out (the first time). I now have a functioning emergency brake again for the first time since I swapped my rear brake backing plates 180 degrees about 2 years ago.

[malibu795]

Very nice lance

[Ron Sutton]

If I've said it once on Lat G - I've said it a 1000 times... Ya gotta cut to cure... and I've rarely come across a part I didn't have to hot rod.


Isn't that the truth!

:superhack:

I hear guys complaining when something doesn't bolt right on, but I'm usually surprised when something does. Greg, your term is "hot rod" the part. Mine is "love". We'll go to install some part from some company that said it would "bolt right on" ... and see that it needs some "love." Typical deal.

After 35 years of this you get used to it. I don't get my panties in a bunch anymore over it. I just fix it & go on.

[SSLance]

One of the guys with a similar style clutch on the MCSS board

Oh yeah, I had that same exact problem with my replacement clutch...

Me:

WTF didn't you warn me in advance about it then!!! :warning:

:bigun2:

In all of my research done about which clutch to buy for the LT1, never did I stumble across a thread talking about this issue.

As soon as I typed in "LT1 clutch install issue" into the google, 30 different threads showed up talking about the same exact issue. :bang:

I don't mind dealing with it, it just would have been easier to deal with it on the first go around, instead of the third...

Stuff happens and most everyone knows I've had to do my share of "loving" on this car to get all of the mismatch parts and pieces to play nice with each other. It's cool to be able to figure it out and fix it, but every now and then it would be super nice if things would just go as planned for a change of pace. :lol:

[SSLance]

So I drove the car around quite a bit yesterday, the weather was fantastic and I had a lot of errands to run. I really REALLY like the clutch upgrade. It is apparent to me now just how much my other clutch was slipping under a hard load. I'd compare it to a torque converter on an automatic trans.

Now with the new Ram clutch though, when the torque is applied, the tires spin first before the clutch slips. Big difference... It should make me quite a bit faster on the course too, as long as I can keep the rear end from stepping out coming off corners.

Driveability is fantastic, shifts smooth both up and down, pedal pressure is nearly identical to the stock clutch and the engage\release point is nearly identical as well.

[fleetus macmullitz]

That's cool it has such a noticeable improvement for you Lance.

After going through the thread, I see you've certainly added a lot of your own supply of 'sauce' too. ;)

[SSLance]

Thanks... It's definitely a garage built kind of car for sure.

I'm at the stage now where I'm having a blast driving it and try my best to not take it down off the road for very long periods of time. I guess there will always be things that I need or want to do to the car but being limited budget and time wise keeps all of that from happening right away.

One also has to take in consideration how a change in one area may affect another area of the car (either planned or unplanned) and be ready to make it all play nice together once again. Sometimes that is easier than others.

[SSLance]

Probably flexing the axle more than the rim itself.



Well...turns out...it kind of was the axle flexing not the rim...Actually it was the axle bearing...

Check out the movement on the outer race...

yfeeUsZrYjQ

This bearing started to fail in less than 100 street miles. Here in the first autocross lap I ran on it you can hear it already failing...Go to about 34 seconds in

ZMqR7Cl6XRE

[65_LS1_T56]

Well...turns out...it kind of was the axle flexing not the rim...Actually it was the axle bearing...

Check out the movement on the outer race...

yfeeUsZrYjQ

This bearing started to fail in less than 100 street miles. Here in the first autocross lap I ran on it you can hear it already failing...Go to about 34 seconds in

ZMqR7Cl6XRE

Looks like a radial bearing, they don't handle thrust loads nearly like tapered rollers. I have radials in my 9" Ford, they were put in by mistake from the builder and I haven't had any noticeable issues so I haven't changed them out yet. Were they both bad? Wheel movement wasn't noticeably different from side to side that I saw. What surprised me is how much front to rear it looks like it flexes, like the whole rearend is moving.

Very cool videos, looks like it's working very nice.

[SSLance]

Thanks...

No just the one bearing went bad. It had to have something wrong with it from the beginning as it went bad on the very first autocross run. I ran the wheels off of the previous bearings and they were just starting to show wear after 5 years.

I'll replace it and keep a real close eye on the other side.

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

I was watching your other thread too. I've had similar troubles with certain bearings from "certain" countries.

Unless I have absolutely no choice, I won't use a bearing that isn't made in the US, Germany, Japan, Switzerland etc.. The metallurgy and heat treatment that is so important for bearings is what is misunderstood and/or skimped on in places like China, Mexico and India.

I'm not sure where Green Bearing makes theirs but I know even some Timkens are made in Mexico and those used to be my "go to" along with NSK

[SSLance]

I just thought I'd update a few things and report back on the upgrades I did to the car over the last winter.

This season so far the car has 2100 miles put on it, around 70 autocross runs, 15 speed stop runs, (5) 20 minute sessions of road course action, and the rest is daily driving miles. The car is currently leading the local SCCA CAM class championship points and has been invited to attend The Speedway Motors Classic American Muscle Invitational Challenge at the SCCA Pro-Solo finale in Lincoln, NE next month.

During all of this I had to replace the clutch finally and refresh the rear axle seals and bearings, both upgrades came with issues during installation, but once corrected have performed flawlessly ever since.

Last winter I rebuilt the Power Steering system replacing the stock style pump with a reman unit and adding a power steering fluid cooler inline between the steering box and the pump. The fluid was replaced with Royal Purple power steering fluid and I have not had to think about the power steering system once since then...it has stood up to a LOT of abuse this year and kept on running like a Timex. Successful upgrade...

I added 9.5" rims up front and Falken Azenis 615K 275/40/17s on all four corners and this might have been the best upgrade yet. They just flat out work and the extra width up front along with the ability to rotate them around to even wear has been a great combination. They are currently starting to get a bit thin...they might get me through the Pro-Solo and Nationals, but I have canceled my registration for our local events 9 & 10 this weekend as they are going to be at Heartland Park Topeka once again and that surface there just chews tires to pieces and mine won't last through another weekend of that abuse. I've put out some feelers trying to get a little bit of help with some new tires for Nationals, we'll see how that goes. Love the Falkens though...definitely the go to performance tire for the type of driving I have been doing.

The body bushing project...I can't really say it has made a huge difference in the car's performance, but I can say that I'm pretty certain the old bushings would not have held up to the abuse I put the car through this year. I'm glad I did it...and I'm glad I won't have to do it again any time soon.

Things currently being considered are some more front end alignment changes. I need to get less static camber in the front which will involve removing a nut between the driver side UCA shaft and the frame and then all new alignment procedures. I also need to 4 corner weigh the car again and get it set to be balanced with just the driver in the car. At the Pro-Solo and at Solo Nationals you can't take passengers so I need to set the car up to be at it's best with just me in the car.

I also recently split a sway bar end link bushing and instead of just replacing it, I've ordered a RideTech MuscleBar front sway bar. I'm hoping I'll have time to get it, get it installed and get all of the other alignment and ride height settings updated before Nationals in a month...along with some time to test n tune on the car. This bar is around 30% stiffer than the bar currently in the car and will necessitate a rear spring rate change as well...but should make a huge improvement in the handle of the car on the track. It still just rolls way too much as it is now.

Overall the car has been fantastic to drive this year, everyone that rides with me on track has a blast in it, it always gets lots of pictures taken of it, and overall the response to it has been a lot of fun. I wouldn't change any of that.

Plans for next year are kind of up in the air right now...I really REALLY had fun at the USCA event and told the wife right after that if I could do a few more of those a year, I'd give up the local SCCA racing. That would necessitate at least a 4 point roll bar addition as well as some race seats and harnesses. I'm still mulling that around...

[Ron Sutton]

Hi Lance !


Things currently being considered are some more front end alignment changes. I need to get less static camber in the front which will involve removing a nut between the driver side UCA shaft and the frame and then all new alignment procedures. I also need to 4 corner weigh the car again and get it set to be balanced with just the driver in the car. At the Pro-Solo and at Solo Nationals you can't take passengers so I need to set the car up to be at it's best with just me in the car.
Yup ! Sure do!

I also recently split a sway bar end link bushing and instead of just replacing it, I've ordered a RideTech MuscleBar front sway bar. I'm hoping I'll have time to get it, get it installed and get all of the other alignment and ride height settings updated before Nationals in a month...along with some time to test n tune on the car. This bar is around 30% stiffer than the bar currently in the car and will necessitate a rear spring rate change as well...but should make a huge improvement in the handle of the car on the track. It still just rolls way too much as it is now.

Yup ! We will need to increase the rear spring (or sway bar) rate to keep the FLLD/RLLD correct ... which is what the key to the car's balanced/neutral handling!

Overall the car has been fantastic to drive this year, everyone that rides with me on track has a blast in it, it always gets lots of pictures taken of it, and overall the response to it has been a lot of fun. I wouldn't change any of that.


Lance,

Post up the diameter & wall thickness of your current bar ... and your new Ridetech Muscle Bar ... and I'll run the calcs to figure out the rear spring rate increase needed. This way everyone can learn along with us.

[SSLance]

Sure thing Ron, the current front sway bar is from an F-body 36 mm dia, 0.220" wall tubing.

The new Ridetech MuscleBar will be 1.5" dia (38.1 mm) and 0.250" wall tubing.

I'm running a 1" solid rear bar and 162 pound springs.

[Ron Sutton]

Sure thing Ron, the current front sway bar is from an F-body 36 mm dia, 0.220" wall tubing.

The new Ridetech MuscleBar will be 1.5" dia (38.1 mm) and 0.250" wall tubing.

I'm running a 1" solid rear bar and 162 pound springs.

Okie Dokie Lance ...

When I worked up your current suspension package, we decided to run it a tick on the free side so there was no push (unless you turn in & apex too early).

For those following along with us, TRS (Total Roll Stiffness) is an accurate calculation that takes into account front & rear track width, roll centers, CG, spring rates & sway bar rates to provide a total roll resistance number.

The TRS number ONLY tells us the car's average roll angle at specific G-force numbers ... not front & rear roll angles. That's where the FLLD & RLLD percentages come in. These acronyms stand for Front & Rear Lateral Load Distribution. That's an engineering term for how are we splitting up this roll resistance front & rear ... stated in a percentage. We need more roll in the rear than the front for neutral/balanced handling.

We worked out your current FLLD as 54.0% FLLD & 46.0% RLLD. That's with:
Front Springs: 600#
Front Sway Bar: 36mm x .220" wall
Rear Springs: 162#
Rear Sway Bar: 1" Solid

If you just changed to the XHD Ridetech Muscle Bar with no rear changes, the 1.5" x .250" wall sway bar alone would change your FLLD/RLLD to 56.6%/43.4% and tighten the car up. You'd have more rear grip and when the track is really grippy from proper temp & good rubber laid down, it would be tight. Tight means harder to turn, but not pushing ... but borderline. That would be ok for road courses ... as long as you run big sweeping corners with wide entry & exit lines ... but it wouldn't like tight corners & it certainly wouldn't autocross well at all.

So you'll want to change the rear springs at the same time you change the bar. Ridetech sells the rear springs you need, so I suggest you get them with your new sway bar. You'll need 250# rear springs.

So with ...
Front Springs: 600# (Same)
Front Sway Bar: 1.5" OD x .250" wall (Custom XHD Muscle Bar)
Rear Springs: 250# (New)
Rear Sway Bar: 1" Solid (Same)

Your new FLLD/RLLD will be 53.9%/ 46.1% ... within .1% of your previous set-up. But of course the whole car will run flatter ... less roll angle ... and work the inside tires better.

:cheers:

[89 RS]

Lance, I just read through your whole thread, great stuff. I really like what you've done with your Monte Carlo SS and look forward to seeing more, great write-ups. :thumbsup:
Good luck the rest of the season.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Hey Lance, just read through, great thread. I'm anxious to see how things go with the new parts. I'm always trying to read up on serious G bodies so I can see how my car compares.

To compare, my set up is-
weighs 3550 without me in it,
600# S10 front springs
Factory wagon 1 1/8 (28.6mm) G body front sway bar
front Varishocks set on 7 of 16

no rear sway bar at all
CPP C10 1/2 ton 3" drop springs, don't know the spring rate, I bought them used and just slapped them in.
rear Varishocks on 6 of 16

17x9.5s all the way around with 255 and 275 40 Nitto NT555s

Last SCCA event I went to my best run was 76.8 and a 2009 Vette that was there was in the 75s so it was running respectfully around the middle of the group on times. I was driving a bit conservatively just to ease into things as this was my first "real" event so I think as I gain more driving skills the car will get faster.

What's odd, my car doesn't seem to roll near as much as yours. Maybe I'm not driving hard enough, lol! I have a much smaller front sway bar than you and no rear bar. What might be making the difference is the 6 pt cage (which is only welded to the floor not the frame), I boxed the frame in the middle, I built a frame connector that ties the middle frame rails together and ties into the rear lower control arm mounts, a brace connects and triangulates the rear shocks, and a trailer hitch connecting the rear end of the frame rails. Up front I have 73-77 A body firewall to rad support braces, the Regal brace that triangulates the radiator support, and I built a heavier wall larger tube triangle brace that goes under the front frame rails. In my videos I see the fender gap flex maybe 1/8"+ so my next step is down bars connecting the firewall to the front frame rails. Not sure that is what is making my car roll (read twist) less, but these frames are ridiculously flimsy and bracing can only help. You mentioned early on a roll bar, have you done that? If you custom build one you can design it to be out of the way and easy to get into. It may not be NHRA 9 second legal but who cares. I have lots of pics in my build thread link below in my signature if you want to see what I'm talking about.

Other than the bracing, I wonder where the big difference between our cars could be? Again, I'm anxious to see how the Monte acts with the new parts. Good luck!

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Here's a link to an outside view video- does it seem to roll less than yours? It's kinda hard to tell unless both cars were on the same track, but best I can tell yours rolls a little more... It looks ok embeded here but if you watch the youtube link it's a little clearer and larger.

IfdbWiHIWY4

[SSLance]

Ben, the pictures you see of my car when it's really rolled hard are possibly more a product of the courses we typically run on. Instead of large open sweeping type of corners like you showed in your video, we have mostly short chutes, hard braking and super tight corners.

This picture was taken in the middle of a large high speed sweeper at Gateway.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-T2Y7qwR0dh8/U9EbQgzC-9I/AAAAAAAAPaU/BbLvlzMii9s/w900-h600-no/10549200_10154445454735078_7003826721694152145_o.j pg

And this picture was taken at the end of the course at Gateway under a hard braking tight type of corner.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-T8iBhXa3Bd0/U802I4oY1lI/AAAAAAAAPV8/UdWQIC9IZhg/w900-h675-no/P7190359.jpg

It might just be that it appears that my car has more diagonal roll once the back is up in the air under braking.

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Ben & Lance,

One key reason Lance's car rolls more is we raised his ride height to achieve more front suspension travel. You can't make a car "high travel" if the suspension runs out of travel and something binds or hits.

All too often guys lower their production car a LOT for appearance sake and or perceived better handling ... without taking into account how much suspension travel they have left. I forget Lance's numbers, but shock travel was limited to somewhere in the 1.5" range ... IIRC ... and we raised the car to achieve over 2" of travel measured at the shock.

Lance's car still travels to the same spot it was before. We just start from a higher position. What this does is increase the dynamic rake of the car in "dive" and shifts more tire loading forces from the rear tires to the front tires.

Of course in purpose built suspensions ... especially in race cars ... we build the cars so they will sit as low as the rules allow & travel the front suspension until the front spoiler or splitter grazes the track. That is hard ... if not impossible ... in most production cars. So in the quandary of, "do I lower the car in the weeds or run it a little higher to make sure I have travel?" ... travel wins for handling purposes.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Those are great examples of different situations. My next SCCA event I'll have to see if I can get my son set up on a tighter part of the course for some shots of harder cornering.

Again, I'm trying to see how my car is doing compared to others with cars like mine. As far as I know, I'm the only one in this SCCA region that even runs CAM class, so trying to compare to lowered Hondas and 350Zs just doesn't help me much, lol! By watching and talking things out with folks like you is helping me get a better car and driving style together. After all, somebody, with maybe a G body or other "different" car needs to whoop up on all those Camaros once in a while, right?

Yeah, I suppose it's hard to tell/ compare unless we could see both cars on the same track. I watched my video a bunch of times last night, particularly the quicker turns before the large sweeper. It seems like I have decent roll range, but I guess I just need some video/ photos from some areas with tighter turns to see what's going on there too. I've tried to pay attention to different cars and folks like Ron, and I realize that some roll is good to help plant the tires, not enough or too much maybe isn't so good.

It seems there's only a handful of us G body guys that are serious about autocross, it would be way too cool for me to meet up with some of you guys at an event and compare notes. Maybe one day... I'm totally changing my entire suspension in August so I can sneak in a couple of SCCA events before the Hotchkis autocross at Fontana in October. Maybe there will be some other G body guys there, hopefully. Next year I'm going to try to get out to the Heidts challenge so maybe that's where I'll see some of ya.

Thanks for sharing that Ron. One of the reasons I'm deciding to go to Coilovers is so that I can play with/ factor in easy ride height and spring rate changes. The most recent mod to my car was cutting a bit of coil off the front springs and it went lower than I had wanted. In a world like this to me dealing with coil springs is a lot bigger pain than just swapping to coilovers.

Lance- Sorry to hijack your thread a little, just trying to learn from the things you're trying to sort out.

Ron- so in a car like Lance's or mine, being a daily driver that's "purpose built" and will see more track time than the average car, what type of range are we looking for in shocks? 2+ inches?

If I'm understanding you correctly you're going with a stiffer sway bar so he can maintain the height but lessen the roll, correct? Do you feel like the car is close to where it needs to be other than that?

[SSLance]

No problem Ben, that's why I do these threads...to share with others about what we've done and plan on doing and to share how it's worked.

Before we started, my front shocks had about 1/2" of compression travel before bottoming out, static fender height was 25.5". One of the first things Ron had me do was put zip ties on the shock shafts and make a few autocross runs to see how far the suspension was traveling. That was eye opening and started us on this journey of making the suspension travel more to obtain the handling we wanted. A suspension bottomed out on the shock body in a turn is not what you want, trust me on this.

We now have enough travel built into the car that under full bump the fender height is 23.25" and full extension is 27.25" (this extension measurement was done before the longer Ridetech Shocks and LCAs were added and may be even higher now) and we have the current ride height set at 26.25" (25.5" tall 275/40/17 tires). We have the 3.6" travel Ridetech shocks on the front and they bottom out at the same time the tie rod ends hit the frame and sway bar (all at the same time). I don't have the exact shock travel numbers with the Ridetech shocks here at work, but you can see we are traveling the front suspension a LOT for a G-body. It took work to get that all to play nice together, but it is certainly worth it with the way the car turns in now.

[Ron Sutton]

Hi Ben,


Thanks for sharing that Ron. One of the reasons I'm deciding to go to Coilovers is so that I can play with/ factor in easy ride height and spring rate changes. The most recent mod to my car was cutting a bit of coil off the front springs and it went lower than I had wanted. In a world like this to me dealing with coil springs is a lot bigger pain than just swapping to coilovers.

Lance- Sorry to hijack your thread a little, just trying to learn from the things you're trying to sort out.

Ron- so in a car like Lance's or mine, being a daily driver that's "purpose built" and will see more track time than the average car, what type of range are we looking for in shocks? 2+ inches?
The short, smart azz answer is "More." If someone is going the high-front-travel/low-roll-angle suspension route, the more we can travel the front end ... to a point ... the better we can make the car turn. Like lance said, his shock was traveling under an inch before. Depending on the shock mounting location, it's about twice that at the wheel in most production cars. So he was traveling the wheel under 2" in dive. Now we're traveling the shocks over 2" & the wheels over 4" ... and it turns a ton better. Of course there is more to it than that. A lot more. But your question is about travel.

In my cars that have a real world ride height ... the best handling, meanest cornering machines are traveling the outside wheel 5"-5.5". The closer you can get a car to that, the better it "can" corner ... providing everything else in the package is right too. The farther you get away from that, the less cornering speed we're capable of carrying.



If I'm understanding you correctly you're going with a stiffer sway bar so he can maintain the height but lessen the roll, correct?
Yes ... correct. We're not looking to travel his car farther. His car handles amazing for a production G-body. It's because we got the front geometry right (including high caster), balanced the front to rear roll angles with spring & sway bar selection ... and went the high-travel/low-roll suspension route.

Because when we did this, the biggest Bar Lance could budget at the moment was a 36mm Camaro bar ... we matched the rear springs & ran it. It works "well" ... but it rolls too much. That means he is not getting the inside tires to work & grip as well as they could. So, by increasing the front sway bar size significantly ... and keeping the FLLD/RLLD the same with the correct stiffness of rear springs ... it will still handle balanced ... but utilize all 4 tires better & have way more total grip. Grip is cornering speed.

Do you feel like the car is close to where it needs to be other than that?

Oh boy ... that's pretty subjective. We can always go faster. The questions come down to each person's personal budget, goals, planned usage, etc.

I'm saying this slightly tongue in cheek ... but we can shave about 10 seconds off his lap times by cutting that body off his production chassis & putting it on a cutting edge, Track-Warrior tube chassis. But where does it stop? I think each person has to make that decision. Sometimes money makes that decision for us.

As far as Lance's current package goes ... without making any major modifications (cutting up) the car ... it only needs a few things:
* Bigger front bar & matching rear springs
* A little more caster & a little less camber
* Scaled to be balanced with just the driver
* New tires to replace his current shredded ones :)
* Once he get's it running flatter, he may be able to reduce the ride height "a little."

You'll notice I didn't mention more front travel. He can't get more without making major mods to the car. Plus how far it travels now ... around 4" ... is pretty sweet.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

All great info. Blake and I were talking about some of these exact things earlier. What a great opportunity we have today to be involved in this industry when the technology and engineering advancements have gone way beyond what we were trying maybe 10-15 years ago.

Blake was also busting on me a little, he says my car won't roll any more than it does because of the crappy 300+ tread wear NT555s I have can't grip well enough to allow the car to lean that much, lol! In that video I was near the edge of going from turning to understeer on the large sweeper. I'm sure tires are a factor as well as some more suspension tuning.

The way you explained it Ron it really clicked what you're after with Lance's car. Thanks for sharing, good stuff for everyone to consider.

[SSLance]

As far as Lance's current package goes ... without making any major modifications (cutting up) the car ... it only needs a few things:
* Bigger front bar & matching rear springs
* A little more caster & a little less camber
* Scaled to be balanced with just the driver
* New tires to replace his current shredded ones :)
* Once he get's it running flatter, he may be able to reduce the ride height "a little."



I guess we could call this "Stage 3" of master plan...

Bigger front sway bar is now installed along with matching rear springs, but I went a step further and also installed a new chassis mounted rear sway bar to replace the LCA mounted bar the car had on it.

Static camber has been dialed back to -1.2 degrees both sides and caster bumped up to +9.6 degrees both sides.

The ride height has been corrected to balance the car out with the driver only in the driver seat. New ride heights at the fender are 25 7/8s" front, 26 7/8s" rear. Front is about 1/4" lower, rear is about 1/2" lower than with the stage 2 setup. I haven't scaled the car yet but I'm betting from past experience it's pretty close to as good as it'll get without moving weight around.

Still working on a way to get some new tires though...

Here are some pics. Front MuscleBar installed

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-soQdI5GLtTA/U-agwPFWpJI/AAAAAAAAPx8/DtoZSRm_YjM/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140809_172926_124.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JufuRsIXq_s/U-ag2aqcHlI/AAAAAAAAPyI/zqouu_Er4qg/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140809_172944_135.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-NzrPclkpqdA/U-agn4XCwnI/AAAAAAAAPxk/eGBzh2izgDc/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140809_172848_104.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-YbCi6QM7TBc/U-agl2B7S6I/AAAAAAAAPxY/1IQ_eHoQfgw/w317-h562-no/IMG_20140809_172822_117.jpg

Rear bar installed

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lEzSXgubdeY/U-fso0w5V8I/AAAAAAAAP0k/eeYT_6KLhK0/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140810_130922_014.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-O1K3g2SAXiQ/U-fsmQHn4WI/AAAAAAAAP0M/TwzshHZJZ1Q/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140810_130857_523.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--Qs7JuLJvfs/U-fslRGymSI/AAAAAAAAP0A/foNys9M1Fvk/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140810_130839_124.jpg

To say the car corners flatter is an understatement...it is unbelievable how much less the car rolls now. I did the front bar and rear springs first, then did some testing with the car. It's like a different car...what I notice the most is the outside front fender doesn't dip down on turn in anywhere near as much as it used to. The balance is neutral, the driver can make the car a bit tight or loose just by making subtle changes. It felt VERY good, should be much faster on the course.

I then put the new rear bar in starting with the end links on the middle of the three adjustment holes and test drove it. The car rolls EVEN LESS now...huge difference. That setting made the car loose halfway through the roll through zone and was a bit sketchy. It was rolling a lot less and changed the handle on the car.

Yesterday I was able to move the end links to the forward hole and drive it on the street a bit more and it's closer to neutral again. It felt more stable and enjoyable to drive spiritedly.

The next plan of attack is to schedule some parking lot shock tuning time and dial in my shock settings to match the new bars and springs. I have to leave town for a week so I won't be able to get on that until next week...but I can't wait.

We've wanted less roll out of the car for a long time and now I finally have it...I'm stoked to see how it races next time out.

[GregWeld]

Nice job Lance.


Engaging Mister Ron Sutton is what I keep encouraging people to do... BUY from him -- or PAY him a fee for advice and numbers - whatever works.... The man knows his stuff!! His advice is priceless. A little of this and a little of that and your car will be so improved it's amazing.

The funny part I find with working with him - he's not about just throwing parts at the car and hoping it works out... he's got the info that goes along with the parts that is what makes the parts work with everything else you have.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Good News! Looking forward to hearing track results!

[Sieg]

Probably not going to see any air under the inside rear now are you? :whistling:

[SSLance]

Man the bottom of that car is dirty!! I remember not that long ago when I could eaten off the bottom side of the car...

I like it better this way! :lol: Shows that it's being driven, not just looked at.

Thanks guys, I never could have gotten it this far on my own and knowing that I have a guiding light showing me the way and being there for backup if I screw something up makes all the difference in the world. The new rear bar wasn't really in the plan, but the opportunity to pick it up happened and I knew that Ron would help me through making the transition with it. In the end I think it's going to work out great and be a big plus.

[SSLance]

Probably not going to see any air under the inside rear now are you? :whistling:


:lol: I don't think that illusion will happen again unless something goes horribly wrong...

[Sieg]

:lol: I don't think that illusion will happen again unless something goes horribly wrong...
:lmao:

[WSSix]

Nice parts, Lance. Glad it's working out for you. Now go beat on it!

[SSLance]

Probably not going to see any air under the inside rear now are you? :whistling:

Funny you should mention that...

I spent time last week fine tuning the installation of the Chassis mounted sway bar and got some road testing in last Friday night. We decided to try the stiffest bar setting and my softest springs I had on hand, 162# springs. The car felt fine on the spirited road driving but all of my parking lots had cars in them so I couldn't do any simulated autocross turns. It was just a touch tight if anything on the road, so Saturday morning I swapped in my 185# springs and went back out. I found a parking lot and made quite a few runs while adjusting on the shocks. I got the car "okay" but I had a weird hopping issue on the rear that made me loose when it happened. I couldn't place exactly what was happening but remember the whole setup is new to me. What I found when I got back to the shop is the end links on the rear sway bar had pushed on the axle mounts and rotated them back far enough for the endlinks to go up top over center and jam the sway bar ends pointing up. Thinking that this was causing binding which was causing my hopping issue I proceeded to have my friend John make me some 3/4" spacers to lower the axle brackets so I could rotate them forward enough to get the end links pointing straight down and keep the bar off the diff.

Then I came in the house and reviewed the videos I took...and found the REAL PROBLEM... The inside rear tire was lifting off the ground on hard autocross type turns.

I went back out Sunday morning and tried it again wondering if the new spacers and repositioned bar would fix this issue, it didn't. I could tell right away now that I recognize the feeling when the inside tire lifts. I then put the bar on the middle setting and tried again, no help. So I tried the softest setting...a bit better maybe, but still no good. No way can I autocross the car like this. It drives FANTASTIC on the street, on and off ramps are a hoot...car is balanced, secure, and just fun to drive...until I try to make a hard simulated autocross type turn...where it lifts the inside tire, the rear hops a bit...then slides loose.

I decided to punt and pulled the bar and put my LCA mounted bar back on as I know I can race with it and I have several big races coming up next weekend. At the same time I put the 250# pound springs back in that were matched to the LCA bar and new front sway bar. Except...I noticed a difference and upon further review found one of them to be a 200# spring instead of a 250#, wrong one came in the box. FML!!

So I put a set of 200# springs I had in so they'd match and test drove it.

Here is the video that shows the inside rear tire with the chassis mounted bar on all three settings and then the LCA bar...all taken Sunday in similar type conditions.

QzsIIIf5PaI

My conclusion... While the chassis mounted bar really helped the street manners, it was too much sway bar to use for autocross. There may be other adjustments that can be made to other parts of the setup to help it all work together, but right now I just don't have the time to be trying to find them. Maybe I'll give it a shot again in the off season. For now I'm going with what I know works.

I got the correct 250# spring in yesterday and after a quick install I made a trip to my favorite parking lot and could tell in just one turn that it was better...WAY better. It's back to being balanced in the turn like it has been since stage 2 was installed and the hoppity hop is gone. I then put the car on the scales, set the ride height properly with the driver's weight in the seat and adjusted the springs until the cross and left side weight equaled 100% and locked it down.

It's full of gas, just needs a quick bath, loaded on the trailer, rest of the gear loaded up and I'm heading to the SCCA Nationals in Lincoln Nebraska first thing Saturday morning. I was invited to participate in the CAM Pro Solo Invitational on Sunday which I'm really stoked about and then I'll be racing in the new CAM Contemporary Class at the Solo Nats on Tuesday and Wednesday.

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Lance,

It's not necessarily accurate that the rear sway bar to too stiff for Autocross. But it is too stiff relative to your front sway bar & spring set-up. What the video is showing is "too much diagonal roll angle." I cover diagonal roll angle quite a bit in my chassis threads on here.

When I calculated your set-up using the new Ridetech Muscle bar with .250" wall thickness ... to keep the FLLD/RLLD correct with your trailing arm mounted rear sway bar... required 250# rear springs. Obviously, as the video shows ... when you tested the new chassis mounted sway bar ... it is simply too stiff for the rest of your set-up. That means you're not allowing the car to roll on correctly front & rear. You could say it's rolling too much in the front or too little in the rear ... but in reality ... it's simply the front to rear roll angle difference that is too much.

Diagonal roll onto the outside front tire is critical for proper handling. All cars need to roll over onto the outside front tire "to a certain degree." There is an optimum amount, which I find to be about .35-.4° degree more roll angle in the front when compared to the rear. But the set-up in the video is creating too much diagonal roll. So the front end is rolling over onto the outside front tire "too much". This can happen from too much rear spring rate or too much rear sway bar rate. The results differ. Too much sway bar rate lifts the inside rear wheel. Too much rear sporing rate does not lift the inside rear wheel.

To everyone following along, Lance & I worked out his set-up with the trailing arm mounted sway bar & it handles correctly. Lance got this different rear sway bar to test ... and obviously ... it is too stiff. So going back to the set-up we worked out with the original rear sway bar is the correct path ... for now. If ... if you ever go to a stiffer front sway bar than you have now ... like a .375" thick wall version of the sway bar you have now ... then you will need either a stiffer rear sway bar or stiffer rear springs to keep the FLLD/RLLD balanced ... which is what makes your car handle so balanced & neutral now.

:Cheers:

[SSLance]

I suppose an update is in order here to catch everyone up on things I have done with the car. Since my last post the car has competed at the SCCA CAM Invitational and also at the SCCA Solo Nationals both in Lincoln Nebraska. When I got to Lincoln on Saturday, we had an hour of test sessions on the practice course in which I got to make 4 runs on my first autocross course on a concrete surface. I've learned that no matter how you practice in a parking lot, nothing really resembles actual on track performance. The car was loose, I spent some time adjusting on the shocks to try to tame the looseness and thought that I had it okay. There were a lot of different factors involved (new surface, new front sway bar and new rear springs) and with only 4 runs to dial it in, I did the best I could. Mental note to myself for future reference, don't make major setup changes to your car right before big National type events!!!

Early Sunday morning we lined up for 4 practice runs on the Pro Solo courses we'd be racing on later that day, two on left course, two on right course...all consecutively with no chance for adjustments other than tire pressures between runs (I never even got out of the car). The car was still a bit loose, enough so that I actually spun it near the start of my 4th run. I was trying to figure out if it was the tires and the new surface not playing nice, driving style, shock adjustments, basically I was at a loss and had no time to make any changes nor did I know exactly what to change to fix it before the challenge round. In the challenge round, after it rained, I spun the car again near the start of my first round effectively ending my day. Here's the video of my 4 practice runs and 2 challenge runs.

61sQ7grymAs

I did some soul searching that afternoon as well as talking to some of the regulars that run high horsepower rear wheel drive cars up at Lincoln regularly and came to the conclusion that I needed a softer spring in the rear. For some weird reason, I had stuck the 200# springs I had in my truck before heading North. I texted Ron Sutton to make sure he agreed and when he did I took the 250# springs out and put the 200# springs in. Thankfully with the Ridetech setup this is about a 15 minute project total start to finish in the paddock parking lot.

I had an hour of practice time scheduled for Monday morning at 8 am to finish dialing the car in before the Solo Nationals races started on Tuesday morning. Before the start of the practice runs, I put my GoPro under the car again pointing at the inside of the driver's rear so I could see exactly what the rear was doing in between runs and adjust on things accordingly. On my first run I could tell immediately that the car felt better. It was still a bit loose in the roll through zone but not edgy, I could still put power down and it would slide, but not enough that it would just step out and spin like before. Ever since this setup was put in and initial shock adjustments were made, it was always a bit loose at times in the roll through zone. I'd tell Ron this and he'd make a comment like "Really?" like there was no way it should be loose. I then watched the GoPro video of my first run...and noticed right away the inside rear tire was STILL lifting off the course a bit mid turn. I'm convinced now this has been going on all year long. You can't tell from the driver's seat, you can't even tell from the videos I ran with the GoPro on the fender looking down at the rear tire, but when you run the camera looking at the inside of the rear tire during an actual run, it becomes clear as day what is going on. I had 3 more practice runs to fix this, so I started taking rebound out of the rear shocks. It was the only way I could figure to keep the body of the car from lifting the inside rear tire mid corner. It started working...-2 clicks, tire just barely lifts. -2 more clicks...tire appears to stay on the ground, just the bulge at the bottom of the tire stretches out. The handle starts to change a bit also though so the next run I add two click of compression on the front. This caused the car to push just a bit so I decided to take the compression back out of the front and take 2 more clicks of rebound out of the rear and race it like that. I was out of test runs so there was no way to be sure if it was going to be perfect or not, but I knew that with the lighter springs in the rear and the adjusted shocks...it was going to be WAY easier to drive than it was in the Challenge on Sunday. Here are the 4 practice runs taken while I was adjusting on the shocks.

onn416PnaPE

[SSLance]

Tuesday was race day... Man, what a spectacle this place is...200 acres of concrete, 1200 racers, two courses, all running like a well oiled machine. It is impressive what the SCCA does to put this event on and if anyone ever gets the chance to go, I highly recommend it. My class is working heat 1, running heat 3...which is perfect for me, feels just like home. I do my work stint on the East course then I have an hour or so to warm the car up and get it to grid before heat 3 starts. I'm feeling pretty good, have walked the course for the 4th or 5th time earlier that morning and when the starter tells me it's time to go, I'm ready. I take it pretty easy remembering how many times I've spun since being up there. First run was pretty clean, set a decent time and most importantly the car felt very settled. It was back to being my old car that I love to drive. So for the second run I decided I needed to get after it...and on the second element it got a bit loose sliding the rear out the exit of the turn. But it stayed in control and I kept after it. On the back slalom there is what I called a "gotcha" cone, it sneaks up on you if you aren't ready for it and on this run...I wasn't ready. I had to make an abrupt move to get past it and this abrupt move upset the rear of the car (probably lifting the inside rear tire once again) and I had to save it two or three times before settling the car down again while at the same time costing me a lot of time. The good news is, I could drive the car again, even with it upset like that I was still able to hang on to it and gather it back up again. On my third run, I scaled it back and trail braked a ton trying to keep the car settled yet maintain my speed. I think I picked up a half second over the second run but was still slower than my first run which ended up being my fastest on the East course. We were then done for the day even though I thought and really wanted a 4th run, apparently you only get 3 runs at Nationals...

On Wednesday the schedule was the same only we were running on the West Course which was more tight and technical whereas the East course was more open and flowing. I felt that tight and technical fit more into my wheelhouse and was ready to make up some time. I was sitting in 3rd place of 9 drivers in my Class and had been informed by Chris in 4th that he was coming for me. :D That didn't bother me though as I was gunning for 2nd place. The car felt GREAT on my first run, I hadn't changed a thing on it since the practice course on Monday but it just did everything I wanted it to do. Maybe the driver was finally figuring the concrete out, maybe the surface was better over there...or maybe it was just my day...who knows but the run felt great. On my second run I really let it all hang out and I picked up almost 2 seconds...I was starting to feel it. We were all calculating between runs where everyone was and Mike in 2nd place had just eeked by Keith in first and I was still in 3rd with a decent lead on 4th. As I was rolling off the course after my 3rd run I heard on the radio that Keith had picked up 3 tenths and secured the class win, I had picked up a couple more tenths and felt pretty good that I'd finish 3rd which was the last trophy spot...which I did. I brought home a trophy on my first trip to Solo Nationals...how about that?!?!

Better than that though was my car was back and better than ever. Watching the videos and pictures back, it now corners much flatter with the new Ridetech MuscleBar up front and really sticks to the track letting me wheel the wee out of it while still maintaining control. My cousins drove down from Edmonton, Alberta to watch and my business partner came up from Florida as well and it was cool having them there during all of this. Jim even took my camera and got some great sideline videos of me running the car on course. This is my second run from both the East course and the West course.

OqVdpJOcipI

And here are my in car videos of all 3 runs from both days.

KK-8JjRrZaE

This picture was taken during my Challenge run on Sunday, probably right before I spun

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RxuJ40aMP7Q/VBHOW1xViyI/AAAAAAAAQZ8/oMJX3q3KzNc/w780-h520-no/10653712_689068744511118_3578051543099263131_n.jpg

These were taken early Sunday morning our practice runs before the Challenge

http://action.zenfolio.com/img/s5/v132/p714582326-4.jpg

http://action.zenfolio.com/img/s2/v70/p684763579-4.jpg

http://action.zenfolio.com/img/s6/v150/p634776340-4.jpg

http://action.zenfolio.com/img/s7/v167/p794119003-4.jpg



This is me lined up against Robbie Unser in the Speedway Motors prepped Nova for my second run in the Challenge


http://action.zenfolio.com/img/s12/v173/p810157284-4.jpg

http://action.zenfolio.com/img/s6/v141/p252253529-4.jpg


To sum it...it was an awesome adventure that I'll remember forever. I can't wait to go back and do it again and next I'll be better prepared for what to expect and will be in a better position to finish even higher.

[SSLance]

After we were done racing on Wednesday, I booked an hour of practice time on the practice course again and took my partner and cousins for some fun runs...

_R2b8dP7GgE

[Ron in SoCal]

That's awesome Lance! Congrats on the podium :cheers:

[Ron Sutton]

That is awesome Lance! Especially in light of how stock your 3600# grocery getter is.

Did you have the air conditioner blowing & a soda in the cup holder?


:cheers:

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Congrats on placing!!!

So I made a bunch of changes to my suspension that put it a little closer to the parts you have, including a frame mounted rear sway bar, and was experiencing the same deal at my SCCA event, the back end wanted to come around. Being the first race on an entirely new suspension I didn't want to make a lot of changes all at once, so for this race I focused only on shock compression and was able to tone it down by bringing the rear compression down and the front compression up. By the end of 9 runs I dropped 3 seconds and could keep the back end right on the edge of staying put and sliding out. There's a lot of room (and need) for further adjustment and reading your experience and results is great.

Thanks for all the details. Just to recap- For this race you finalized with-
600 lb front springs
200 lb rear springs
arm mounted rear bar (Size again?)
1.5" dia front bar
a little soft on the rear rebound and a little harder on the front compression?

How about rear compression and front rebound?

Do you think you'll stick with the arm mounted rear bar or try to step up to get the frame mounted bar to play nice?

At the track I compensated with more front shock compression. I ended with rear compression adjustment at 6 of 19 and front 11 of 19 and 10 of 19 all around on rebound. On the way home it rode pretty rough, too much for even me. I can't imagine what it would ride like if I keep adding more front compression. On 4 compression on the rear it felt very loose and like being in a boat on the waves so I think 5-6 is the max I want to drop to. I'm running 550 lb front and 200 lb rear springs. My rear bar is on the lightest setting. So (chime in here too Ron) what's the best generic way to better match front parts to the frame mounted rear bar to keep the rear half of the car following the front? Bigger front bar ? More coil spring rate? ...? I was thinking of starting with swapping to 600 lb front springs like I had before...

[SSLance]

That's awesome Lance! Congrats on the podium :cheers:

Thanks, I was pretty stoked...



That is awesome Lance! Especially in light of how stock your 3600# grocery getter is.

Did you have the air conditioner blowing & a soda in the cup holder?




Yep, along with a 24 Pak of Bud Select on ice in the trunk and some classic rock blaring on the stereo!!! Couldn't have done it without all of your help Ron. Thanks.





Thanks for all the details. Just to recap- For this race you finalized with-
600 lb front springs
200 lb rear springs
arm mounted rear bar (Size again?)
1.5" dia front bar
a little soft on the rear rebound and a little harder on the front compression?

How about rear compression and front rebound?

Do you think you'll stick with the arm mounted rear bar or try to step up to get the frame mounted bar to play nice?



Thanks for the congrats, it really is cool to do well with a G-body against all of the other muscle cars in our class.

I put the 1" solid LCA mounted bar back in place and it'll stay there for a while or at least until I get the front roll stiffness a lot firmer.

I wasn't soft on the rear rebound by any means. I don't have my notes in front of me, but I think I started out my shock tuning on Monday with the rear rebound at -2 clicks out of 24...almost totally stiff (I start at full stiff and count clicks as I soften, so -2 is 2 clicks counter clockwise from full stiff). I think they ended up at -8 and I might try going just a bit softer with them next time out as I think they are still picking up the inside rear tire under hard abrupt maneuvers.

I've always run the front rebound between -6 and -8, just little changes there make a big difference. If I need front grip for a bit longer, say for a long sweeping turn on an autocross course, 2 clicks firmer will fix that right up. 1 more click though and I'll start loosing rear grip on exit. It's a fine balance.

Front and rear low speed compression are both at -15 I believe, on the soft side of the middle, same with high speed compression. Only thing I do to drive on the street is soften the rear rebound all the way up, the rest stays the same and it rides great.

Ron will probably explain this better than me, but I think the saying goes "increasing rebound adds grip and increasing compression takes grip away" or something like that. What do I know, I'm just the driver (and owner). :underchair:

As you know, the hardest part with this is replicating the track like conditions for testing and tuning. Just 4 runs during an event is NOT enough time to tune on shocks properly.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Thanks for the congrats, it really is cool to do well with a G-body against all of the other muscle cars in our class.

That's the plan!... CAMAROS :bigun2:


I wasn't soft on the rear rebound by any means. I don't have my notes in front of me, but I think I started out my shock tuning on Monday with the rear rebound at -2 clicks out of 24...almost totally stiff (I start at full stiff and count clicks as I soften, so -2 is 2 clicks counter clockwise from full stiff). I think they ended up at -8 and I might try going just a bit softer with them next time out as I think they are still picking up the inside rear tire under hard abrupt maneuvers.

I've always run the front rebound between -6 and -8, just little changes there make a big difference. If I need front grip for a bit longer, say for a long sweeping turn on an autocross course, 2 clicks firmer will fix that right up. 1 more click though and I'll start loosing rear grip on exit. It's a fine balance.

Front and rear low speed compression are both at -15 I believe, on the soft side of the middle, same with high speed compression. Only thing I do to drive on the street is soften the rear rebound all the way up, the rest stays the same and it rides great.

Thanks, that clarifies a lot.

Ron will probably explain this better than me, but I think the saying goes "increasing rebound adds grip and increasing compression takes grip away" or something like that. What do I know, I'm just the driver (and owner). :underchair:

Makes sense.

As you know, the hardest part with this is replicating the track like conditions for testing and tuning. Just 4 runs during an event is NOT enough time to tune on shocks properly.

That's for sure!

[SSLance]

So, on the morning of the last day of racing in Lincoln, I heard a familiar noise when the clutch pedal was pushed all the way in...the old clutch fork against the pressure plate grinding.

Everything still worked though and I made it through my 3 runs plus 4 fun runs after, but after the last fun run it was getting to the point where the clutch wouldn't disengage before the fork hit the PP. I had a pretty good idea of what was happening but all I wanted to do was get the car on the trailer and get home.

Once back on the lift and after a few days rest, I pulled the slave cylinder off and my suspicions were confirmed.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Vd8_P6bbe-s/VAstd_swatI/AAAAAAAAQWo/TT50X_wfbfE/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140906_105119_876.jpg

This is the bolt that holds the Tee-block that the cluck fork pivots on. It had worked loose allowing the clutch fork to travel further forward eventually hitting the pressure plate when the clutch pedal was depressed.

Problem is, one has to remove the transmission to tighten the bolt. :censored:

Exhaust, drive shaft, inspection plate, starter, crossmember, and eventually the trans have to come out to get to the bolt head.

So I did all of this, soaked the bolt real good in blue lock-tite and reinstalled everything. Right before I put the slave cylinder back on I snapped this picture and started banging my head against the rack...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0L8kWDWd_Ro/VAtbzNP9g4I/AAAAAAAAQXQ/5ejQPV8NccA/w999-h563-no/IMG_20140906_140852_114.jpg

It appears that the reason the bolt came loose is because after I shortened the Tee-Block to keep the fork off of the PP the first time, the bolt now bottoms out before the Tee-block is tight against the trans housing.

I let it sit like that for about a week before deciding to go ahead and button it the rest of the way up and drive it like it is until it starts to happen again. If it comes loose again I'll pull it all apart once more and shorten the bolt.

Aren't cars fun...

[GregWeld]

My question would be --- WHY didn't you take the time and shorten it (the bolt) THIS TIME...

[SSLance]

Well, I was ten minutes away from rolling the car off the lift when I found that...and it's another 2-3 hours to remove and replace the trans one more time not counting the time to shorten the bolt.

Trust me, I took a week off to think about it...but decided I'd give the locktite a shot. It's not catastrophic if it comes loose again so there's no real risk and there's a chance (albeit it a small one) that it won't come loose again.

There's also a chance that once I shorten the bolt, the Tee block will too short screwing up the geometry of the clutch fork causing me a whole 'nuther set of problems...

[67goatman455]

Dang! car looked real good in the videos! I keep forgetting your only a few hours north of me, i can't believe how many cool cars it looked like were at the event.

In your videos aimed at the rear suspension it looks like your really close to bottoming out the shock.... or am i not looking at it right?

[SSLance]

Thanks Scott. It was cool to watch all of the Muscle cars going at it at the Invitational. Hopefully that event will only get better in years to come.

That black spring cup that holds the bottom of the spring is probably a bit over an inch deep and the bottom of the shaft is at the bottom of it. There is a bump stop on the shaft and I regularly check it to see if the shock body has bottomed that bump stop out and while it does get close, it never has pushed it all the way down. It does push it down into the spring cup to make it appear as if it's bottoming out though for sure.

With the recent changes we've made to the car up to and including putting the 200# springs back in the rear and lowering the rear stance just a bit, watching those bump stops is a great tool to make sure we have enough ride height in the car to keep it from bottoming out. I've had the rear hitting the bump stops before and it is NOT fun, nor is it fast that way.

You should come watch us race in Topeka in October, we are doing a two day event Oct 18-19th in the large lot of the South end of the infield at Heartland Park Topeka. You never know, I might have room for a ride along even if you show up.

[SSLance]

So, the 2014 racing season is over for me. As I sit and watch updates from all of my friends heading to Vegas for SEMA and OUSCI I'm reflecting on this last season and making plans for next year. This year exceeded my expectations big time, but my plans for next year are even greater.

The event this past Sunday was great, I was able to hold off the rest in my class and take a win in CAM. The car just loved that particular course and all of the learning I did over the year as a driver helped as well. Here are some pictures taken of Barney on the course at Event 13 by David Peterlin of Peterlin Photography.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6RTOIiY7_sI/VFV1IlAXY2I/AAAAAAAARQE/5UiWVd3u0SM/w1218-h685-no/p919356923-6.jpg

and no, I did NOT hit that cone. :D

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bI7fFZFbmK4/VFV1IIb5CQI/AAAAAAAARQA/cmyT-HA1iZg/w1218-h685-no/p890377884-6.jpg

Took 4 first timers for rides...they all loved it.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TtD3LvjfwaA/VFV1G61NqzI/AAAAAAAARPc/vYjGulmC_U0/w1278-h663-no/p750352458-6.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-p1R09CY5aWM/VFV1H6997HI/AAAAAAAARPw/-YrRJhhtmFc/w1218-h685-no/p830554516-6.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5UAgRQF1GGI/VFV1HKHU8qI/AAAAAAAARP0/LSY4lo5NpwM/w1218-h685-no/p638847957-6.jpg

Even let a fellow competitor run a heat in my car to measure myself up against him.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7BObUlFLX_Y/VFV1H_dd3FI/AAAAAAAARP8/fNxb1s2w_i4/w1218-h685-no/p878004425-6.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-AQEHf5Ij5Io/VFV1HOVzMeI/AAAAAAAARPg/-jaUsm6Uzk0/w1218-h685-no/p804812114-6.jpg


Stay tuned for the new plans for the off season. Updating safety equipment is job one, updating the rear axle bearings is another...and we'll have to see how much is left over in the kitty after that to see if there are to be any other upgrades made.

[glassman]

Lance, besides autox, are you planning on tracking it at all?

Congrats on a successful season :thumbsup:

[waynieZ]

Congratulation's Lance,:cheers: and here's to even more success next year!

[instro84]

nice work lance, loud forward to seeing updates.

[Ron in SoCal]

Congratulation's Lance,:cheers: and here's to even more success next year!

Here, here :cheers:

or is it "hear, hear"? :)

[SSLance]

Lance, besides autox, are you planning on tracking it at all?

Congrats on a successful season :thumbsup:

Thanks! I plan to track it some at the Optima events I hit next year.


Congratulation's Lance,:cheers: and here's to even more success next year!

Thanks :cheers: I can't wait...Is it March yet?


nice work lance, loud forward to seeing updates.

Thank you. I'm looking forward to getting started on them.


Here, here :cheers:

or is it "hear, hear"? :)

Either one works for me... :lol:

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Congrats, nice way to wrap up the season! Looking forward to seeing changes for next year.

[SSLance]

The off season work on Barney has begun with earnest.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mDcPyFEBtBo/VKBLgXV-cKI/AAAAAAAAR-c/KxRjQ_hFUbQ/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20141228_122714_745.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-I0OnmMzWV7k/VKBLoaSP_-I/AAAAAAAAR-o/UCCSoQ_MmfI/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20141228_122733_043.jpg

I've ran the stock CCC carb, distributor, and ECM on my car for the whole 7 years that I've had this 383 in the car and it has ran great. It's got many wins in it's class with the SCCA autocross, a Street Modified championship, a third place trophy in it's debut at the SCCA Solo Nationals, and several very successful track day events where it surprised a lot of people over the past couple of years.

During the later part of this season though, at our autox events held on larger more open courses...the car kept getting beat by the newer LS powered cars in my class. I wasn't sure what to do about it until the last event of the season which was held on our local tight technical course where I won over those same cars by over a second. I was getting beat by an upper RPM horsepower deficiency. It was time for a change...

This engine has always built fantastic torque down low, but the ECM would pick up noise from the knock sensor and start pulling timing out up around 4250 RPM which would kill the upper end horsepower.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-gVPpb4PliP0/VKBjtU-p30I/AAAAAAAAR_I/gFO7QJi7rfI/w529-h684-no/Chassis%2BDyno%2Bresults%2B03-13-2013.jpg

I researched putting a MPFI setup on this engine but ultimately decided I could swap in a LS1 cheaper than to put EFI on this engine correctly...and I'm not really interested in doing that at least right now. So I started researching ignition boxes and found this super cool MSD unit #6530 for sale locally at a good price, so I picked it up. A friend had a re-man quadajet left over from his car he didn't need anymore and I picked up a new MSD #85551 distributor and started the swap to pull the CCC out and put the MSD ignition box in.

My heater core sprung a leak last fall so it needed to be replaced as well, seemed like a good time to do it all at once.

My goal is to get the complete CCC harness out in one piece, put the ignition box somewhere under the dash and use the CCC grommet to run the MSD harness back to the engine. The distributor has had the mechanical advance locked out and is set back in place with the rotor pointed at the #1 spark plug wire and a basic tune has been loaded into the programmable MSD box.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dYhwVw7WN1E/VJ7fTSMAG3I/AAAAAAAAR88/fbl1VAirB7M/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20141227_102754_147.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-H2yM2t7VUJg/VJ7fg70odCI/AAAAAAAAR9I/DAFi6r_lD5g/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20141227_102818_165.jpg

I sent the carb off to a friend to have him make sure it is 100% ready to run so that when it's bolted on and the ignition box is fired off, my ignition problems should be solved and hopefully I can realize the true potential of this engine.

[Ron Sutton]

Keep up the improvements !

:cheers:

.

[WSSix]

Sounds fun, Lance. Glad you're staying 383. Good luck with the change over.

[SSLance]

I recently went to PRI in Indy to try on Race seats in preparation for major safety upgrades for the interior of Barney. I wanted to run a HANS device on any future track days and this meant I also needed to add harnesses, which meant new seats as well as a place to attach the shoulder harnesses too. After all of the groundwork was laid, seat style picked out, roll bar installation design and quote...I got cold feet and had pretty much decided to not go through with it. It was going to take a rear seat delete modification to make it work properly and still look good and I also couldn't find the exact seats I wanted...

That was until a week ago Friday. This is when I stumbled across a garage sale ad that had a perfect pair of seats in it at a fantastic price.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ooB7uZVO98M/VLq5HxWUuDI/AAAAAAAASQ8/r-iaH8SGxuc/w442-h685-no/profi-spg.jpg


These seats come with a winning pedigree already, they were in Mark Stielow's 1967 Camaro Mayhem when it won the Optima Ultimate Street Car Challenge in 2012. Hope I can do them justice in Barney as well.


Saturday I took the GTO front seats and rear seats out of the car and Sunday delivered them to their new owner. Once the new seats get here I'll get them mocked into place...then once I get the car running again it's off to the fab shop for the roll bar and rear seat delete sheet metal to be put into place. Then I'll cover the sheet metal with sound deadener and eventually carpet that matches the maroon carpet up front for hopefully a very nice finished look on my now two seat street car.

It's a big change, but I'm certain I'll be much safer in the car plus I'll be more secure which should help the driving and the added bonus will be the roll bar structure will significantly stiffen up the body which will also help with the car's performance.

The getting the car running again bit entails a new carburetor, distributor, and ignition system. I've pulled the 1985 factory CCC computer system and am working on a new mechanical Quadrajet, MSD programmable ignition box\distributor and a wideband 02 meter install which should help me tune some more power into the upper RPM range to help me beat that Poncho and Camaro in this coming season on the bigger courses.

I also pulled the steering column and sent it out to be completely rebuilt and modified to more match the new features of the car. It'll be locked in park, the linkage arm removed, and the steering wheel lock disabled as well as the very worn tilt mechanism rebuilt and improved upon over the factory version and have a nice satin black paint finish applied before it's sent back.

Right now the car is in hundreds of pieces and I'm in parts jail waiting for everything to come back before I can reinstall. Hopefully everything will come in in the next week or so and once I get back from my trip to FL next week I can resume on the off season upgrade projects.

[MeanMike]

...
I also pulled the steering column and sent it out to be completely rebuilt and modified to more match the new features of the car. It'll be locked in park, the linkage arm removed, and the steering wheel lock disabled as well as the very worn tilt mechanism rebuilt and improved upon over the factory version and have a nice satin black paint finish applied before it's sent back.
...

Who did you find to do this? I wonder if it's possible to tie into the reverse light circuit in the column instead of the solid copper wire harness that runs to the rear.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Sounds like some good plans. Being strapped in tight and not pinching your larger cheeks to stay seated is one less thing for your brain to process and allows more focus on driving. The roll bar will also give you a better sense of safety, again one less thing to worry about, particularity on the road course.

I like the trip to FL part too. I grew up on the south east coast in a suburb of West Palm Beach. I miss the weather this time of year. Enjoy!

[SSLance]

Who did you find to do this? I wonder if it's possible to tie into the reverse light circuit in the column instead of the solid copper wire harness that runs to the rear.

One of our own supporting vendors here GMTILT

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/forumdisplay.php4?f=88

I'd drop him a line and ask, if it can be done I'm sure he can.

I used a reverse light harness from a manual mid 80s GM truck. I got a plug to match the reverse light connector on my T56, then ran the wires from it to this harness and plugged it into the connector that used to plug into my steering column to get my reverse lights to work.

[SSLance]

Sounds like some good plans. Being strapped in tight and not pinching your larger cheeks to stay seated is one less thing for your brain to process and allows more focus on driving. The roll bar will also give you a better sense of safety, again one less thing to worry about, particularity on the road course.

I like the trip to FL part too. I grew up on the south east coast in a suburb of West Palm Beach. I miss the weather this time of year. Enjoy!


Thanks Ben. I'm actually excited about the plan again now after being a bit cool on it for a while. Figuring out a way to finish the back area off nicely and still have the interior look like a street car, not a race car was important to me.

Unfortunately my trip to FL is not a pleasure trip, more of a MIL duty trip...but that's okay. Plus, I can't complain about the weather we've had here in the Midwest so far this winter. 50s and 60s the last 5 days or so and on into the long range forecast as well.

[SSLance]

The Quadrajet Carburetor has a bad reputation...mainly because a lot of people don't know how to make that particular carb work well on their engine (me included). I've driven a car with a well tuned Q-jet for a while now though and can attest to how well they perform once tuned properly. Switching from an electronically controlled Q-jet to a mechanical Q-jet is a big step and I wanted to make sure it was done properly...so I enlisted the help of a friend that is an expert at them.

The first trick with a Q-jet is to get the idle and cruise Air Fuel ratios right, at idle you want the primary throttle blades closed with just the proper amount of air and fuel going through the bypasses and enough adjustability in the idle air screws to fine tune per the engine. Same with cruise AFRs... How much vacuum the engine makes (largely cam relative) combined with cubic inches figure in to this equation.

The carb I acquired for this project is a 1977 small block passenger car carb that had a Holley reman sticker on it. It was in good overall shape but once disassembled we found idle passages epoxied shut and some "unusual" jets and bypass sizing. My friend Bob contacted Cliff Ruggles who is one of the few real Q-jet gurus and between the two of them they developed a plan of action to make this carb work correctly with my engine. Bob is in Pennsylvania but has an engine in his car similar to my build. His is a 427 ci vs my 383 ci but has a similar cam that builds tons of vacuum and tons of low end torque. Once he got the basics on the carb done, he's been running it on his car to fine tune. He got it close enough and it has lots of idle screw adjustability each direction for me to fine tune it once on my engine.

Here is the initial build sheet on the changes he made to the carb...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-QVIVohJ4ywM/VNOORO1rk2I/AAAAAAAASZo/hTUcZRpETwU/w751-h563-no/IMG_2799.JPG

The carbs spread out on his bench...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3I_9r_iX0h8/VNOOSX9YmzI/AAAAAAAASZ0/d-OnydslTWI/w751-h563-no/IMG_2743.JPG

All put back together...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6A2VIB5yUTk/VNOORSBBe4I/AAAAAAAASZs/t8eTUTXkzic/w751-h563-no/IMG_2795.JPG

I think he's had the carb on and off his engine at least 10 times trying to get it right. Here's how he described the tuning to me via email on Monday...

Got the carb done, installed on my engine Sat. Immediately had a problem with bad nozzle drip at idle. Turned the idle psi down to 3 psi, lowered the float, changed the needle and seat, this eliminated those three as not being the problem, still a dripper. No control of the idle mixture. Car is not driveable.

Took the carb off the engine AGAIN, decided I would open up the idle mixture screw orifices, .088" to .093", and increase idle air bypass from 078" to .086". The carb I run, .mixture .096" and 098" for bypass air. Those changes on your carb now gave me control of the idle using the mixture screws, idle rpm was about 700, vac about 17", no nozzle drip. Time for a drive,

Sun I picked a stretch of highway close by where I could get to 60 and had minimum salt, not a lot of them right now in the great NE. Car drove OK, no secondaries due to my air cleaner housing it the air valve linkage, stopped and tweaked the cruise A/F, back to the shop. Stacked 5 gaskets on top the carb, tweaked the cruise again, if I adjust the idle to my usual 750-800 very slight nozzle drip. Run up the road again, secondaries only in 3rd gear, air valve at 5/8 turn, I run a little over 3/8. Well wouldn't you know it my Innovate decides to get stupid, it has been acting dumb for most of your carb tuning, now it just want's to throw an ERROR 8, O2 sensor. So knowing what I really ended up with after my last trip up the road not sure yet. Back in the shop it idled fine with full control using the mixture screws, as long as I kept idle slower no drip.

I pulled the carb for the 10th time, dropped the float level from Ruggles "1/4" is good" to 5/16" which is still higher than factory spec, probably 12/32". This affects "pullover", should reduce nozzle drip potential. Reset air valve to 1/2 turn. New air horn gasket installed after double checked everything, new carb to manifold gasket, 600 rpm good idle, no drip, idle mixture screws out about 2 1/2 turns. Ran out of time Sun for another run, and got no A/F meter.

Today was a snow/rain/slush storm, now it's low 20's with 40 mph winds, lots of ice tonight. Can't see getting the car out for a few more days.

I think the carb is good to go. I know if I opened up the idle air bypass a little more I could get the results I want for my engine. But I feel a 383 with 10% less "suck" and less cam, but still idling at 17-18" vac should be able to get the throttle plates closed at 700 rpm, no drip and with .086" bypass.

Here's some good reading. Kinda give you an idea of tuning a carb. Ignition timing mentioned, importance to getting the throttle plates closed. http://www.wallaceracing.com/qjetidle.php

I was concerned about the size of the primary rods Ruggle sent me, stock/Holley installed were 52K, he said run 44K. It appears they will be OK. Will make the trip to the shop again tomorrow. Will recalibrate the A/F meter and hope to get good idle readings, maybe a road test. Would like to see this ship very soon.

Then last night he sent me this...

YEA!!!!!!!!!!! Boxing the carbs tomorrow.
Nice day today, almost 40. Went to the shop and first thing swapped the O2 out for one of the used ones I had, recalibrated, Innovate back to normal. Gauge giving good steady readings.

Before starting to tune again I called Ruggles, another 1/2 hr chat about qjets, racing and managed to get his thoughts on where I should be at on hole sizes, I think we're good to go.

Started the engine, warmed it up, a steady 14.0 at idle, 700 rpm, no drip. Two trips up the road to check response, cruise, WOT. A/F gauge now working correctly, set cruise at 15.2, lot of + and - adjustment left on the ATP to play with. Very responsive, but no secondaries in 1st and 2nd, 3rd gear they opened and blew the tires off at 60. This is just a matter of adjusting the air valve windup lighter to get 1st and 2nd. You'll need to tune that on your engine.


:D

This is just a little look into the science of a Q-jet Carb. They are VERY engine dependant for idle and cruise characteristics and if you don't get them right, they just won't be happy on the street. Once right though, they'll give you great street characteristics, 18-20 MPG in my car, and a full 800 CFM of flow with the proper Air Fuel ratios for those full throttle blasts on the track. I'm happy and fortunate to a have such a capable friend willing to help with this project and I can't wait to get it back running again with this new setup.


My steering column will get here tomorrow so on Saturday I can reinstall it in the car and begin fabbing up the seat mounts to get the new Recaro seats in the correct position. Then when the carb gets here next week I'll finish up wiring the MSD, bolt the carb on and see if she makes heat once again. Then it's off to the fab shop for the roll bar install.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Wait, what's that? I can finally see more racing on the horizon!

Congrats on getting the carb done and good luck with the other stuff.

[Gscherer78ta]

I am running a Qjet on my Poncho 400 and last year had it tuned by a guy here well know for his carb knowledge and what a difference it made! Really, WOW!

I read Cliff's books and read stuff on the internet and tried what I thought was everything and was looking at new carbs to buy when I had this guy tune it and now it runs great.

Looking forward to hearing about your racing this summer!

[Che70velle]

Great news Lance! Looking forward to hearing about your on the road results.

[glassman]

Good read Lance. I've only driven a few "really" well tuned carbs in my life and when there on, there on. But getting them there requires patience, knowledge, and experience, none of which i have. I've done a little with my dirt bikes, but 4 strokes, two strokes, another story. I think Siegster here can tune a carb or two,and i've had some friends who could do that. Its an art thats getting lost. But hey, i can still putty a window with the best of them !!!!! :thumbsup:

[Sieg]

17-18 inches of vacuum at idle! .........I've dreamt of that before. :sieg:

If the stars align and atmospheric conditions are ideal I can get 12" @ 950-1,000 rpm. :D

[SSLance]

Truck motor... ;)


Not so much fun on the top end but you should feel it pull out of a corner on the autocross course...

Plus, VERY street friendly....

[SSLance]

I made this video up last year after a few runs on the bigger autocross courses we run at Heartland Park Topeka. I just love listening to the Q-jet opening up...

c2YZmBwRCUI

Listen to the chuckle about 10 seconds in from my passenger on his first ride in the car. His Mini won't do that. :drive: :D

[Ron Sutton]

Oh yeah :)

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Man that car looks like it plain hauls the mail!

I look forward to spanking you when we finally meet up. :poke: Lol!

[SSLance]

I'll admit...I've probably played the above video back three or more times just today...with the speakers turned up :D It is a fun car...and it's the dead of winter here...and the car is in a hundred pieces right now. I had to get my fix in somehow.

I look forward to the opportunity for you to attempt to spank me Ben, :poke: :D It is a blast to finally put it on the track and see where things measure up.

Dan Howe and I couldn't have had any more fun than we did running at Gateway last summer. Was a great weekend...

[Justin@EntropyRad]

Pics look good hooking corners:thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

I'd love to watch the video but all I'm getting is a black box in the post.... is it on youtube somewhere??

[SSLance]

try this Greg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c2YZmBwRCUI

[Ron Sutton]

A little sawdust ... but only a little. Nice driving improvement.

:cheers:

[GregWeld]

Got it Lance -- great video! Nice driving.... and the car sounds great and corners pretty flat!


The video was back on this site this time when I came to post this... I'm in Maui and using my iPad as my "wifi" link to laptop so maybe it was just a glitch for me - but thanks for sending it!! My wife was very happy listening to it over the surf... LOL

[GregWeld]

A little sawdust ... but only a little. Nice driving improvement.

:cheers:




Going to have to hook that string to his hands from his feet?? LOL

[SSLance]

A little sawdust ... but only a little. Nice driving improvement.

:cheers:

Thanks, I worked VERY hard on my driving skillz last season and feel like I made huge gains. I know the car is still more capable than the driver, but I'm getting there.

I wonder if anyone else does this? I can look back at last year in my mind and vividly remember the specific corners I screwed up as a driver that cost me a win, or a great time...on several different courses and days. I also look back at the videos regularly (one just to get me through the long winters) and play them through in my mind saying, "you need to this here, not that" to get through that corner faster etc.

The good news is, I'm really starting to recognize what it takes to be fast, the next step is making my hands, feet and eyes...replicate those actions.

[SSLance]

A little sawdust ... but only a little. Nice driving improvement.

:cheers:

Have you watched this video yet Ron?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPQhQPgbDDU

This was from the last event of last year...

[Panteracer]

Lance,
I always tell everyone when you and the car become one
then it is working.. I know it is tough to figure things out
when you make a bunch of changes to the car.. I am in that
boat now... Looks like things are working out for you
I sometimes tell myself to slow down to go fast.. pushing it
(unless you are Danny Popp) seems to work against you

And seat time, seat time are hard to replace
I hate to say it but taking mine out this weekend to the
coast for a spin.. suppose to be in the 70's here in Kali
No real winter here.. keep at it and have fun that is
why we are doing this

Bob

[GregWeld]

Is it just me or is that steering column moving around a lot??? Not picking on you or the car.... calling it out because I saw it and maybe it's nothing or maybe there is a way to "fix it".... Or maybe it's just my old sorry azz eyes and the shadows.

I thought your driving was pretty dang smooth! And maybe Ron will comment on hand position -- because I'd like to learn from this too.... but I was thinking that your left hand should stay on the 9 O'clock side of the wheel rather than coming all the way across your body?? IDK...

[SSLance]

Is it just me or is that steering column moving around a lot??? Not picking on you or the car.... calling it out because I saw it and maybe it's nothing or maybe there is a way to "fix it".... Or maybe it's just my old sorry azz eyes and the shadows.

I thought your driving was pretty dang smooth! And maybe Ron will comment on hand position -- because I'd like to learn from this too.... but I was thinking that your left hand should stay on the 9 O'clock side of the wheel rather than coming all the way across your body?? IDK...


No, your eyes aren't fooling you, the steering column was about ready to fall apart that day. The tilt mechanism started to get a little bit of play in it at the SCCA Solo Nationals in Sept and I just hoped it would hold together through the end of the season...that last race day in Oct did it in big time though.

I actually just got the column back from Jim down at GMTILT, he completely rebuilt the tilt mechanism, changed some things on the column itself and prettied it up quite a bit. Might even get it back in the car this weekend.

Regarding hand position, different instructors will tell you to do different things with your hands depending on the situation, but above and beyond that, I believe in order to have complete control of the wheel (and your car) your hands have to be where you want them to be and are comfortable with them. For instance, at Gateway on the road course, my instructor kept trying to get me to put my hands at 9 and 3 o'clock, but this put my elbows right into my seat bolsters during a turn and I couldn't do what I wanted to with the wheel because of that. With my hands at 10 and 2 my arms were more free to control the wheel, creating more car control. I also like to bring the opposite hand for the turn (ie right hand on a left hand turn) down on the wheel before the turn so that once in the turn the hand is at about 3 o'clock, same but opposite for a right hand turn. Once I explained this to the instructor he agreed.

On an autocross course, I am typically thinking at least a corner ahead of where I'm at on the course and will try to get my hands where I'll need them to be on the wheel for the next corner as well. That's why you'll see me moving them either one way or the other on the wheel, so they'll be ahead enough of the wheel so I won't have to cross them up during a turn. It doesn't always work out perfectly but knowing how much I'll have to turn the wheel to negotiate a turn helps so that I can position my hands ahead of that movement. A smaller steering wheel and\or a faster steering box would negate this extra hand movement, but this works okay for me now.

A lot of guys racing these older muscle cars have to turn them way more than I have to turn this one, so I don't feel too bad about what I have to do .

[SSLance]

Lance,
I always tell everyone when you and the car become one
then it is working.. I know it is tough to figure things out
when you make a bunch of changes to the car.. I am in that
boat now... Looks like things are working out for you
I sometimes tell myself to slow down to go fast.. pushing it
(unless you are Danny Popp) seems to work against you

And seat time, seat time are hard to replace
I hate to say it but taking mine out this weekend to the
coast for a spin.. suppose to be in the 70's here in Kali
No real winter here.. keep at it and have fun that is
why we are doing this

Bob

Bob,

I stayed away from making changes to the car for most of last season for just that reason. I told Ron that I wanted to work on the driver that year, not the car. :D And I have found the need to slow down to go faster at times as well.

What I find happening to me, and I think this is either street tire related or maybe more specifically Falken 615K related...is once I slide the car by over driving it, which ever end I slid, immediately continues to slide in the next few corners even if it isn't being over drove. Usually it's my rear tires...I call it making them angry. If I carry too much speed or exit too hard out of a corner and spin the rear tires...when I go into the corner after that, the rear steps out MUCH earlier than I expect it too...then the whole process compounds on itself and the run is ruined. If I just back it up a tad and don't make that initial slide, they continue to stick for the whole run and I'll put a great time down.

This killed me at the Pro Solo last fall because sitting there at Christmas tree light start with a competitor beside me, I'd launch hard every time and spin the back tires. From then on in each and every run, I couldn't keep the back end under the car and the looseness got continually worse each run. I actually spun the car twice that day...and I NEVER spin this car out on a course.

There were other factors involved as well which made the bad situation worse, but the making the tires angry is one of the things I look back on and realize now and vow to try to avoid in the upcoming season.

[GregWeld]

Makes sense to me Lance!

[Panteracer]

Lance,
It is hard for me going from dot autocross or road race tires
to these 200 rated tires.. takes all my confidence of railing a
turn into tiptoe land...I agree to leave the car alone if it is neutral
and work on the driving part

I ran my Pantera at Optima with 200 rated tires and they
were crap.. ran it at the last Goodguys and used my dot
V-710 Kumos and it stuck like glue.. just fun runs but
it was the 3rd fastest time and I only ran the first day
and they are road race compound that takes a little while
to heat up

Newer 200 tires coming out might be getting better because of the SCCA,
Speedway and Optima series.. I think whenever I can run
my dot kumos (American Autocross series etc) that is what
I am going to do.. or just do fun runs at Goodguys it is
just for fun for me..

Bob

[SSLance]

When I first started with the SCCA autocross group, there were two schools of thought regarding tires passed along to me from the veterans. Many told me to learn how to drive on street tires first before going to R compounds because the R compound tires would mask bad driving habits. The rest were already sucking on the R compound crack pipe and they told me to get R compounds on the car as soon as possible if I really wanted it to work.

Since that time, the SCCA is making a concerted effort to weed all of the street class cars off of R compounds and it is interesting watching those that have made a living so to speak with R compounds on their street cars having to readjust their driving back to street tires. Some are doing okay at it, others not so much at all.

Granted, I only ran second hand 60 series A6s on 16" rims on my car but I found the 40 series Falken 615Ks on 17" rims (that were basically the exact same tread width as the A6s) to be easier to drive on than the A6s. They responded better, they spoke to me better, and they were more predictable when you got too or stepped over the line of grip.

They may be down just a bit on overall grip from the A6s, but I like how they feel better and as long as everyone else has the grip with their tires, I'm okay with them.

One friend has a newer Miata that he ran R compounds on for years and is a great driver. He put Rivals on it 2 years ago and HATED them, so much so that he went Chump car racing instead... Well maybe that wasn't the whole reason but it's funny because he runs Falken 615ks on his Chump Miata now and does fine with them.

[Panteracer]

I have really only autocrossed about 6 times in the last 5 years
Been running on the road race courses but want to get back
to autocrossing more often now that my Firebird is getting sorted

I remember when first it was yokes, then Hoosiers then Kumos
One tire always seemed to be a little better than another
I have Rivals on the Pantera and to be truthful some of the
problem is I could only get a shorter tire out back and taller in
the front and the car does not like it.... but you are right you
get spoiled with R compound tires

Bob

[Ron Sutton]

Going to have to hook that string to his hands from his feet?? LOL

He's gotten pretty good. But I gave him crap before when I watched one of his videos last year. I forget my exact smart a** remark, but it was something along the lines of needing to take a wet/dry vac to the track to keep up with the saw dust.

:lol:

[Ron Sutton]

Have you watched this video yet Ron?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPQhQPgbDDU

This was from the last event of last year...

I take from the sailor language you hit a cone?

You looked good in the video, but your steering column looked like it was flexing quite a bit. When you get your good seats & belts in the car ... that hold you in place better ... that should go away.

Was it a pretty fast lap ?

[Ron Sutton]

Is it just me or is that steering column moving around a lot??? Not picking on you or the car.... calling it out because I saw it and maybe it's nothing or maybe there is a way to "fix it".... Or maybe it's just my old sorry azz eyes and the shadows.

I thought your driving was pretty dang smooth! And maybe Ron will comment on hand position -- because I'd like to learn from this too.... but I was thinking that your left hand should stay on the 9 O'clock side of the wheel rather than coming all the way across your body?? IDK...

I saw that steering column flex too!

So Greg I think you know my philosophy ... is for the driver to gently & smoothly shuffle the wheel their hands ... and not get crossed up. But I've seen guys with the funkiest hand action & positions still win races.

[Ron Sutton]

Bob,

I stayed away from making changes to the car for most of last season for just that reason. I told Ron that I wanted to work on the driver that year, not the car. :D And I have found the need to slow down to go faster at times as well.

What I find happening to me, and I think this is either street tire related or maybe more specifically Falken 615K related...is once I slide the car by over driving it, which ever end I slid, immediately continues to slide in the next few corners even if it isn't being over drove. Usually it's my rear tires...I call it making them angry. If I carry too much speed or exit too hard out of a corner and spin the rear tires...when I go into the corner after that, the rear steps out MUCH earlier than I expect it too...then the whole process compounds on itself and the run is ruined. If I just back it up a tad and don't make that initial slide, they continue to stick for the whole run and I'll put a great time down.

This killed me at the Pro Solo last fall because sitting there at Christmas tree light start with a competitor beside me, I'd launch hard every time and spin the back tires. From then on in each and every run, I couldn't keep the back end under the car and the looseness got continually worse each run. I actually spun the car twice that day...and I NEVER spin this car out on a course.

There were other factors involved as well which made the bad situation worse, but the making the tires angry is one of the things I look back on and realize now and vow to try to avoid in the upcoming season.

Greg knows my funny phrases.
1. Don't surprise the tires ... by doing things abruptly with the steering wheel, brakes or throttle ... or they'll bite you.
2. Don't piss the tires off by sawing on the wheel & over steering ... or they give up.
3. Keep the tires happy & they'll respond by giving you grip ... and grip is corner speed.

We can't be naive enough to think we can abuse the tires and they'll still perform at their peak. It doesn't work that way. The key is driving them up to the edge ... their limits of grip ... as smoothly as possible.

[SSLance]

I take from the sailor language you hit a cone?

You looked good in the video, but your steering column looked like it was flexing quite a bit. When you get your good seats & belts in the car ... that hold you in place better ... that should go away.

Was it a pretty fast lap ?



Yeah, it was a real fast lap, about a half second faster than my previous run which was good enough for the class win that day. That cone cost 2 seconds negating the run. Worst part was, it wasn't even really necessary to be that close to it, I was just concentrating on setting up for the sweeper and misjudged how close I was to it.

[SSLance]

When I mentioned above that the car is still more capable than the driver, this is what I struggle with most...and it ties into pissing the tires off during a run.

My worst habit used to be overdriving into the corner,standing on the brakes too hard and entering the turn in part of the corner too hard on the brakes with the back end jacked up into the air and causing the car to be loose on turn in and roll thru. The millisecond that you start sliding the car is the moment you start loosing time until it stops sliding. I am much better at not doing this now, it is a rare problem.

What is more common is I'll enter the corner a bit on the easy side and brake a little too long and then mid-way through the roll thru zone my right foot says "GOING TO SLOW" and it'll hit the gas...which is wrong wrong wrong.

One of two things will result, either the car will take weight off the front tires where it is still needed and the car will push or it will spin the rear tires before the weight gets transferred back to them resulting in loose. Either way...huge amounts of time are lost waiting for the grip to come back and now my tires are pissed for the rest of the run.

I read driving books all of the time and generally the cornering advice is geared towards road courses, where you have 10 laps of practice during a 20 minute session to pick out your braking points, memorize visual cues, and practice the 10 or so important corners on the 2 minute lap track. All before your actual racing starts.

In autocross, especially SCCA autocross, you have 3 runs on a course you've never driven before, with 10-15 important corners during a 60 second lap to set your best time...and you are done. THIS IS HARD.

There is no time to set braking points, memorize visual cues, much less practice. You have to drive by feel and instinct. You have to know what your car is going to do before you dive into that corner and how it is going to come out the other side. Contrary to road racing, you generally do NOT make up time on the straights in autocross, you make up time carrying as much speed as you can through the corners. And the second you start sliding a tire is the second you start loosing time.

This is especially hard when for larger part of the 30+ years you've been driving...coming out of a corner with the rear tires spinning in a spirited powerslide was considered FUN!!! :drive:

[OLDFLM]

^^^ Great Post!!! ^^^

[GrabberGT]

....
This is especially hard when for larger part of the 30+ years you've been driving...coming out of a corner with the rear tires spinning in a spirited powerslide was considered FUN!!! :drive:


Now just hold on there one second... Are you saying I've been doing it wrong all this time and this is NOT fun?!?! :poke:

Good post.

[Ron Sutton]

My worst habit used to be overdriving into the corner,standing on the brakes too hard and entering the turn in part of the corner too hard on the brakes with the back end jacked up into the air and causing the car to be loose on turn in and roll thru. The millisecond that you start sliding the car is the moment you start loosing time until it stops sliding. I am much better at not doing this now, it is a rare problem.

What is more common is I'll enter the corner a bit on the easy side and brake a little too long and then mid-way through the roll thru zone my right foot says "GOING TO SLOW" and it'll hit the gas...which is wrong wrong wrong.
Yup yup yup ... it is wrong, wrong, wrong. But a VERY Common mistake by developing drivers.

One of two things will result, either the car will take weight off the front tires where it is still needed and the car will push or it will spin the rear tires before the weight gets transferred back to them resulting in loose. Either way...huge amounts of time are lost waiting for the grip to come back and now my tires are pissed for the rest of the run.



You have this figured out. Now you just need more practice driving in a little deeper, using a little less brake, letting her roll ... and repetition getting consistent at it. That is the fun part. Don't beat yourself up, just work on improving.

When I was developing young drivers climbing the ranks of the racing ladder, we never focused on results. Never. We never focused on winning or getting a top 3, etc. Never. We always focused on learning, improving & applying what they learned. And these kids won a ton of races against long time veteran racing adults.

The great part is you KNOW what to do. So this year just have fun focusing on improving & applying what you know. That's my 2¢.


:cheers:

[SSLance]

Took care of some little odds and ends this weekend on the car, some that had been needing attention for quite a while.

First up, ever since I switched to the Sick Speed Monte clutch pedal, I've had a gaping hole in my firewall...the initial hole for the John B pedal and then the adjustment to it for the Bernie Built pedal. I covered them up Sunday with a clutch rod boot that had been on my shelf for almost 2 years.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2KTkWc3CqNA/VOAH7QxpIUI/AAAAAAAASqs/WVIXGHEfCsI/w317-h563-no/0214150951.jpg

I then had to work on my pedals a bit. The powdercoat on the clutch pedal made it a bit sticky if the bolt was tightened down too tight, so by leaving the bolt a tad loose it let the brake pedal swing over and just kiss the clutch pedal sometimes if not pushed straight down. I shortened the head of the bolt that holds the clutch master rod to the pedal and then sanded on the clutch pedal swivel to make it fit the inner sleeve better allowing the bolt to be fully tightened down. This tightened up both the clutch and brake pedal and botho move smoothly now without touching each other. I then hung the pedals back in place.


Next up was the bracket to mount the coil in this position under the dash.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-MmtXkKc3HK8/VOAH1VoFHOI/AAAAAAAASps/Um0RUe2KHJs/w1001-h563-no/0207151216a.jpg

Wasn't a big deal and I think it turned out fine. No pics of finished bracket yet though.

My friend John also helped make up a couple of coil wires to help finish up the coil install before he started on the brackets to mount the new seats.


Packaging the seats in place is proving to be a challenge. We've got a good start on them and have a plan in place, we just need to raise the back mounts up another inch and then adjust everything once again for driver comfort. I'm super glad that I decided to have the tilt column rebuilt (which turned out beautiful BTW) as it looks like I'll need the steering wheel adjustability to get the driver comfort dialed in.

Mainly I'm running out of room for my left elbow with the seat in "racing position". The side bolster of the seat and armrest on the door panel leave little room for my elbow so we had to raise the front of the seat bottom, tilting the seat back back...allowing my feet to be closer to the pedals but leaving more room for my arms to flail about during spirited driving. With the seat in this position, I have to tilt the wheel down for a comfortable grip and tilting it up for entering and exiting the seat will be necessary.

This is still a work in progress but at least I've sat in the seats bolted to the car and I know they fit within the area allowed. Fortunately the Recaro sliders allow for a TON of adjustability for and aft on both sides and we should be able to get things mounted in a permanent position on both sides that serves the intended purpose and will allow different size drivers and passengers to make themselves pretty comfortable.

Now I have to tackle the MSD box wiring once again to rearrange things since the coil was moved inside as well as bolt the carb back down and tidy up under the hood. I've ordered a new electric fan harness from Harnessworx to clean up that area as my homebuilt harness had some issues. Figured now is as good of a time to clean that up. Some other little odds and ends need accomplished as well, like making this throttle cable bracket play nice with my intake manifold.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-27KJ4O4s30w/VOAH8ln6v0I/AAAAAAAASq4/7KjncASVd0U/w1001-h563-no/0214151317.jpg

Just little time consuming things... To be continued...

[SSLance]

Pretty good progress this weekend, lotta little things tidied up.

Here's the seats, sorry for the crappy pics.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-YxQFiuDE18Q/VOjyp0-EDXI/AAAAAAAASv8/MIjtZxaLMnc/w1218-h685-no/0221151503.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-HJy4qtAlvMc/VOjyvsYH30I/AAAAAAAASwU/m9qmI-wRVpU/w1218-h685-no/0221151503b.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CTM_SQKM4gM/VOjyso9-bxI/AAAAAAAASwI/_4svlhfgCTs/w1218-h685-no/0221151503a.jpg

Man, the camera really shows how dirty the carpet is right now...

I'm pretty happy with the location and fit so far. Still have room to tweak the position around a bit if needed, might tilt the driver's back a bit more...we'll see once I drive it.

Modified throttle cable bracket works...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fzpxwrrrmrE/VOjzJTkL4cI/AAAAAAAASw4/XIMm4EUX9aE/w1218-h685-no/0221151505a.jpg

My new harness for the electric fans gets delivered today. Installing it along with wiring up the MSD box and put the passenger inner fender back in with battery and should be close to test firing it.

[65_LS1_T56]

Lance, sorry the seats don't fit. I guess you'll have to send them to me after all. You need my address?



:lol: , looks great. Nice job!

[SSLance]

You are first on the list if I decide I can't make them work Aaron. :D

They are okay, not as bad as a lot of the seats I sat in at PRI but not quite as good shoulder wise for me as the large Cobra seats that were my pick as I left PRI. They might end up being okay once I get harnesses and get used to them.

[WSSix]

Congrats on the good progress, Lance.

[SSLance]

So about 5 years ago I built my own harness to run my Ramcharger dual speed electric fans. The harness worked okay but I chose the wrong temp switches and once it came on it would never shut off again until the engine cooled way down and I never finished hooking up the switch to make it come on automatically when the AC was switched on.

Since I'm redoing a bunch of wiring under the hood while taking the CCC system out, I figured it was a good time to upgrade the fan harness and do it right. This is where Jabin ( gbodyparts1234 at yahoo.com ) comes in.

Here are a couple of pics of the Lance built harness I just removed.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Vc6jbCDIDOk/VO5sAqpaMRI/AAAAAAAAS48/BCRvRFgEBwE/w1218-h685-no/0225151842.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-DJT2yJ3eHB4/VO5sEdInv-I/AAAAAAAAS5I/I0HlymjGbK8/w1218-h685-no/0225151842a.jpg

And here is what you get when you purchase a harness from Jabin.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-D9XVycIYMgU/VO5sUkfMWaI/AAAAAAAAS5U/VBmZceESwtw/w385-h684-no/0225151843.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-0WNZbm1-yY4/VO5s2nh6VeI/AAAAAAAAS5g/HWbBp8Nl_bE/w1218-h685-no/0225151846.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4gVEHj5A1UY/VO5s9gt255I/AAAAAAAAS5s/of5L-XAkrHU/w385-h684-no/0225151846a.jpg

Every wire is labeled so you know exactly where it is to hook to

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-D0F5noOeb38/VO5tCuTv0OI/AAAAAAAAS54/qPxfpDl8B5I/w1218-h685-no/0225151846b.jpg

Look at how it all just oozes quality. The relays, the connections, the wire... I wanted an override switch and told him where I would put the relay bank and he built all of that in with plenty of wire to customize for my application. He also include enough wire crimps and heat shrink to complete all of the hookups to the car.

I don't see why anyone putting fans in their car would do anything other than having Jabin build a harness for their application.

Thanks Jabin!!

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Cool!! Uh... pun slightly intended. :)

[SSLance]

It made heat!!!

Removed ECM, distributor, carburetor and all associated sensors and wiring...installed new MSD ignition box, MSD distributor, Innovate Air Fuel meter and a Bob Built carburetor...and rewired a TON of stuff under the hood and under the dash.

I poured some gas down the vent tube in the carb to help with startup, pumped the gas twice, turned the key and I swear...it fired on the very first revolution and jumped right to 1500 RPM high idle until it warmed up a bit.

Had a bit of a fuel leak at the carb so I shut it down to work on that. Every time after that it fired right back up and idled great. I need to learn how to time things a bit better with the ignition box, it is completely programmable box and I think you are supposed to phase the distributor in and then set the timing tables from there. I can barely move the distributor and it drastically changes where the idle timing is...but it's a PITA to see the timing mark on my engine. I'll get to that though...it's pretty damn good where it is right now considering everything I changed.

AFR bounces around 14.3 to 14.7 at idle once warmed up and jumps down to 10-12 under quick revs...and it never stumbled once. Granted no load on the engine but so far so good on the carb end.

The fans kick on when it gets to around 210 degrees or so and then kick back off after a minute or so of idling...they NEVER did that before. They also kick on when the AC is turned on.

Overall, I'm VERY happy...now I can settle down, schedule a trip to the cage builder, and work on fine tuning things a bit.

Here's a short crappy cell phone video...

nFYzo6YvAxQ

[Mizzouri]

Congrats on the winter work!

[SSLance]

Thanks Patrick, trying to figure out ways to keep up with that Poncho on my limited budget! `

[Che70velle]

Congrats Lance! I'm glad this is all coming together for you. Your one of the few rare guys on here that is working on an actual drivable car. I'm looking forward to more videos, and again, your car sounds killer! :thumbsup:

[WSSix]

Good job, Lance! Glad to hear all the work is paying off.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Awesome Lance!! :thumbsup:

[SSLance]

Sometimes you have to take a step backward in order to make another step forward...

Ready to go see the cage builder...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TYXKhmtoPi8/VPcXu1BiGVI/AAAAAAAAS_c/O5RhJJ46YUs/w1001-h563-no/0304150833.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-93TfCv5gX3s/VPcX2gGQiaI/AAAAAAAAS_o/Em9jERdNuq0/w1001-h563-no/0304150833a.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DqUyHRCmyu4/VPcYBQcZaKI/AAAAAAAATAA/FDSi56RMA6Y/w1001-h563-no/0304150834a.jpg

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Looking forward to seeing how you and they work out the design. Are you going for the legal type side bars or the more entry friendly pro touring style?

I did all of my chassis boxing, bracing and roll cage at the same time so I have no way to quantify the changes. I'm real curious to hear how the cage changes (or not) your car since you already have so much seat time already.

Keep the pics coming!

[SSLance]

My plan is to do a 4 point roll bar made out of 1.75" chromoly, the main bar base plates welded to the body bracing at the bottom of the B pillar, straight down bars to the area above the rear axle with plates welded to the floor again right above body bracing, a diagonal support bar through the main bar and harness bar intersecting that diagonal bar.

See the passenger side seat and armrest on the door in this picture?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-YxQFiuDE18Q/VOjyp0-EDXI/AAAAAAAASv8/MIjtZxaLMnc/w1001-h563-no/0221151503.jpg

The armrest is only an inch or so away from the side of the seat so if there are any door bars put in, they'll have to go below the armrest on the door panel and up the rocker a ways. that is a sturdy place on the body to weld too, but I'm not sure if the effort to put that bar in will be worthy in the long run.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HJy4qtAlvMc/VOjyvsYH30I/AAAAAAAASwU/m9qmI-wRVpU/w1001-h563-no/0221151503b.jpg

This is still going to be a street car, I'm not pulling the door panels out to get door bars in that I'll have to crawl over to enter and exit the car. It is hard enough just crawling out of these seats to exit the car.

The bar, seats and harnesses will be built enough to let the car compete in any time trial, track day, solo trial and the rest of the events I plan on running. Only thing it won't be legal for is actual door to door racing which I don't plan on doing with it anyway.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Sounds cool!

Lol! -Getting out of the seats is hard enough...
I once "climbed" into a friend's 84 Corvette that was getting set up for drag racing. Ugh. Getting out was a real challenge. The only way I'd do a cage like that is with slide out side bars.

Good luck!

[SSLance]

I never really paid much attention to the tach when making spirited runs since the engine was so slow to accelerate from 4000-6000 RPM... Now I must pay much closer attention... :D

This morning I tidying up a few more things under the hood, marked the balancer and timing tab better and set the distributor at 32 degrees advanced and locked it down. I then hooked the vacuum gauge and laptop up and started messing with the timing retard curve. I was able to get it pretty dialed in I believe for now. I have to say, being able to grab a dot with my mouse, drag it across the screen and watch the engine change idle to the new setting is pretty effing cool. With it at 7 degrees advance, it idles at about 850 RPM and pulls 20 inches of vacuum.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VJM7qyHQOoM/VPs1dxU8YmI/AAAAAAAATHE/FgQhtJ8VeGs/w1218-h685-no/0307151129.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-s6AXMVBqBBg/VPs1kjOGZAI/AAAAAAAATHQ/TRJV18-WxlY/w1218-h685-no/0307151129a.jpg

The timing advance makes a linear line from 1000 RPM to 3000 RPM, 7 degrees at 1,000 to 32 degrees at 3,000 RPM. I believe it would like a little more timing as I could not get it to ping anywhere, anyhow during my test runs. My issue is, it appears that the box won't accept a timing retard curve of more than 25 degrees and I think it would like just a little bit less timing at idle. It's pretty dang good like it is though.

The carb is nuts on, Bob did a FANTASTIC job setting it up and dialing it in. I haven't touched a screw on it and it drives out perfectly. No nozzle drip, idles perfect, not a hint of a stumble anywhere, it just flat out runs.

I've taken the wideband back off for now because I haven't hard wired it in yet and I don't want the guys at the fab shop to worry about waiting for the O2 sensor to warm up each time they move the car around. Once I get it back I'll put the wideband back in and finish fine tuning both the carb and the timing, but it's plenty driveable as it sits now. Check it out.

8n7x4t6DpFc

I tilted the driver seat back one more notch and I like it. I think before I was trying to force myself back into the seat too much, if I just sit in it naturally, it feels pretty dang good. Even works real good with my factory 3 point belt.

Sorry Aaron... ;)

[Sieg]

20"!!! I could vacuum my shop with that compared to my 11.5 at 1K. LOL

[SSLance]

It was at 23" when it was idling at 1100 RPM with 10 degrees of timing in it. :D

#truckmotor

[Ron Sutton]

Did you clean out the cup holders & charge the A/C ?

:poke:

[GregWeld]

Tuning with EFI is no different than tuning a carb -- you want the motor to make MAXIMUM vacuum... Vacuum is a good tuning tool at idle.


Does you car really have cup holders? LOL

[SSLance]

Not right now Greg...It couldn't have felt more racecarish than it did yesterday...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-v327_Oxo7lQ/VPxJL9JHh0I/AAAAAAAATI8/ttHLnocY7YQ/w1218-h685-no/0308150805a.jpg

I haven't touched a screw on the carb yet. I couldn't run any smoother than it does right now. I'd like it to idle just a bit lower still and would like to try a bit more timing on the top end, my guess is I'll have to start tweaking on the carb to get the idle down with the timing advanced at idle.

It runs so freaking good right now though I almost hate to mess with it. Can't believe a guy 1500 miles away built this carb for me basically from scratch and it runs this well straight out of the box with no tuning.

[Ron Sutton]

Can't believe a guy 1500 miles away built this carb for me basically from scratch and it runs this well straight out of the box with no tuning.

Apparently he knows his sh**. :)

[SSLance]

Well, the roll bar builder put me off until this week, and then informed me that it'll take him up to two weeks to get it done once he starts on it...so I rearranged some things and got back onto tuning a bit more on the car.

I won't bore everyone with everything I've been through, but lets just say I now understand, timing advance, vacuum advance, and air fuel ratios MUCH better now and the car is working fantastic. Every change I've made to the car has only improved it more.

It's now idling at 9* advance and has a steady curve up until a total of 34* at 2800 RPM. The idle air bleeds in the carb are a little large so it's idling at 950 RPM which doesn't really affect anything although I'd like it to idle slower. Bob will fix that up as soon as I get a chance to ship the carb back to him for some fine tuning. For now though, it's golden. Air fuels are low to high 14s at cruise and idle and high 11s to low 12s at WOT. I really think it'll take even more timing as I have yet to hear it ping.

The power increase it has over before is tremendous, especially between 3000-6000 RPM and the driveability hasn't been affected whatsoever. I wouldn't be afraid to let my wife get in it and drive it anywhere.

Being able to time and tune it by watching gauges and computers and making adjustments with a flick of the mouse is COOL! When the car had a stumble at low RPM cruise, one glance at the AFR and vacuum gauge told me it was loading up with fuel. Adding just a bit of timing at that RPM range cleared it right up.

Can't wait to get this thing back on a dyno now to see just how much more it makes, might happen this Tuesday if all goes well.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

:thumbsup: sounds like the progress is winning, and learning new stuff is a good thing!

[SSLance]

It's the little truck engine that defies Hot Rodding logic...but I like it!! :D

I strapped Barney to a chassis dyno once again yesterday and made some pulls to test and verify that the changes I made this winter helped...and I'm happy to report that they did. The peak HP and Torque numbers didn't change that much since the last time I had it on the dyno 2 years ago, I lost a couple of peak Ft Lbs and gained about 15 peak HP. The big difference though is between 4000-5000 RPM I picked up around 25 HP and around 15 Ft Lbs and the overall Torque and HP curves are much flatter and more consistent completely across the board. This backs up what my butt dyno had been feeling since the upgrades.

To catch everyone up, what I changed to accomplish this was pull the 30 year old carb, distributor and CCC ECM from the car and replaced them with a mechanical Q-jet, MSD Billet Distributor and a MSD 6AL Programmable ignition box. The new parts help feed and spark it better on the top end which is an area it sorely needed help in.

What was interesting to me was the timing changes we made during the 6 pulls. We started out with the total timing at 34* all in at 2800 RPMs. We made 2 pulls and liked what we saw, there was no pinging and the engine pulled strong all the way to 5500 RPM. Just to see what would happen, I took 1 degree of timing out...and it picked up about 5 HP across the board!! So I took another degree of timing out (now at 32*) and made another pull...this time it picked up another 2-3 HP across the board. What the heck, lets try one more...put it at 31* still all in at 2800 RPM and it picked up another 1-2 HP once again across the board. Air Fuels were steady at 11.75-12.25 all the way through every pull. We left it there at 31*. That's where it made the most power but more importantly, it's a very happy engine there...and safe.

We made 6 pulls within a half hour stopping only to examine the chart and adjust the timing between each pull and the engine never got hot enough to kick the electric fans on (we did have the floor fan pushing air into the front of the car). What I have here is a rock solid stump pulling engine that puts 300 HP and 400 Ft Lbs to the rear tires just about across the board that is very comfortable in daily driving situations and can light the tires up at will or run great times on course...without skipping a beat or getting hot. I love it.

The dyno printer was malfunctioning so I didn't get an official printout of the graph, so I took some pictures of it with my phone. This picture shows the whole screen but has flash glare right in the center of it. The blue line was the best pull from 2 years ago and the red line is the best pull from yesterday.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wHT7CXuWUvo/VQnDSX5U1HI/AAAAAAAATSY/62Xqb4Tlnm0/w1001-h563-no/0318151323.jpg

This one shows the curves a bit better

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-SppXBwx6vio/VQnDoX7eK1I/AAAAAAAATSw/kPfC2k-dpe0/w1001-h563-no/0318151324.jpg

Here's a video of the last pull of the day.

M5Cdbdeoaf0

I the left the shop and took the car to the fab shop to let them get started on the roll bar installation. Hopefully in a week or so I'll get it back and can start putting the interior back in the car again to get it ready for our first event April 11th...

[Ben@SpeedTech]

That's some good figures there for a not so radical motor. Nice.

[waynieZ]

You should notice a nice difference on the course with the improvements.

[SSLance]

Thanks Ben, I agree... It also got 14.8 mpg on the first tank after upgrades...with me beating the snot out of it just about the whole time.

I agree Wayne, I can already tell where it helped the most just by street driving it.

I still have a set of 1.6:1 roller rockers to put on it as well which should help a little bit more across the board.

[SSLance]

I got the ShineSeal kit in, I ordered the Master Kit which is says is good for 80 sq ft. Here it is along with the diapers I'll use for applying the sealer and the microfiber towels for polishing.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lEYYwuvT5z0/UvfCdI25NFI/AAAAAAAAMho/nkA_O_Hv7ZY/w913-h685-no/DSC04247.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KUBgCy3oil0/UvfCdFD9icI/AAAAAAAAMh4/Jg61xa0z9Zs/w913-h685-no/DSC04248.JPG

The bottle on the left is their Bio Cleaner which I mixed 1 oz with 16 oz of water in the spray bottle. This is used to clean the metal surface of any contaminants before the sealer is applied.

The Metal Sealer is the bottle second from the left, this acts and works very much like Sharkhide. It's the sealer that gets rock hard and protects the aluminum from anything penetrating it. The third bottle from the left is the Slick Finish, this may be what separates this kit from the other aluminum finishes on the market. It goes on like a wax but you don't let it dry on the surface you just keep polishing on it until it is all taken back off of the metal. It's the cat's meow... The 4th bottle from the left is a Brite Shine Metal polish that you use should you ever need to clean the Metal Sealer back off of the aluminum. I guess if you ever wanted to polish a shine back onto the surface you'd clean the sealer off with this, then polish, then reapply.

I cleaned the outsides and the insides of all 6 wheels with the Bio Cleaner and a microfiber towel. This wasn't a big deal in my case because I had just polished all of these wheels with Mother's Billet polish so they were already what I'd call very clean but the directions said to so I did.

I then used a diaper to apply the sealer to the outsides of all 6 wheels. It goes on kind of like Rain-X, is very solvent smelling, and is tacky and kind of hard to tell if you are getting an even coat on, especially in all of the nooks and crannies most wheels have. I'd much recommend anyone that is doing this project to have the wheels off of the car laying flat and everything that can be taken out of the way (center caps etc) off the wheels as well. Once I was fairly sure that all of the outside surfaces had a good coat on them, I flipped the wheels over and coated the hoops on the inside. I didn't spend the time or materials to do the back sides of the spokes as they'll never be seen. Then it had to dry and set up. I ended up letting them set for about 24 hours. You can tell if it's not set up by running your finger on the surface, if it smears...it still needs more time.

After BioClean, before Sealer

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Sy20_JlcCLg/UvfCdKYskUI/AAAAAAAAMhs/4hyJzLNO7kw/w913-h685-no/DSC04249.JPG

Same wheel after Sealer applied but not dry yet.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-knYftow3grY/UvfChkGVt3I/AAAAAAAAMig/qSy3ig1_Nio/w913-h685-no/DSC04254.JPG


Brand new wheel before Sealer

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-fRU1RrDW5TU/UvfCg0MQd9I/AAAAAAAAMiQ/Aoofxdt-a8Y/w913-h685-no/DSC04253.JPG

Same wheel after sealer

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WHickQ6z1kY/UvfCkkgw2YI/AAAAAAAAMjA/XQhVLo4hYAM/w913-h685-no/DSC04258.JPG

All 6 caps...can you tell which two are brand new?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-IG7NMqr7H9g/UvfCmG6Ob1I/AAAAAAAAMjI/VCc22udNnw0/w913-h685-no/DSC04260.JPG



This morning I went out to see if the sealer was dry, and it was...so I set about applying the Slick Finish. Before the Slick finish, the surfaces were kind of tacky...well not tacky but your finger still stuck to it just a bit as you drug it across. The Slick Finish goes on pretty easy and you just apply it and polish it back off working in small areas as you go along. It turns that somewhat sticky surface into a smooth as glass almost Chrome like finish. It is unbelievable... It also lets you polish smooth the top layer of the sealer if there were any areas where you got the sealer a bit too thick. Those areas showed up after the first coat of slick finish is applied and polished out and you just go back over them with a bit more Slick Finish and a clean microfiber and it polishes the surface out super smooth. This is the step that really finishes off this process nice and I believe it HAS to make the surfaces of the wheels MUCH easier to maintain nice looking. The highly polished areas of the wheels feel just like a chrome surface now.

After I was certain the outsides of all of the wheels were as polished as I could get them I flipped them over and applied the slick finish to the insides of the hoops as well. Probably over kill and unnecessary but remember my goal is to get these wheels as maintenance free as I could get them and that includes keeping the insides of the hoops as nice looking as they can be kept as well.

Here is a close up of a used wheel done...Sorry, it's taken with my phone but again, it'll have to do for now.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3GYzHtPISZo/UvewzGe8-MI/AAAAAAAAMgY/q6pJle4XFqw/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140209_104612_257.jpg

The camera makes it looks more scratched than it is...to the eye they look pretty dern good.

Here is a new wheel all done...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-33GaNpQkpgE/Uvew1NY7H-I/AAAAAAAAMgk/uHgjUKMhowM/w1215-h685-no/IMG_20140209_104624_317.jpg

As you can see it looks great. I wouldn't hesitate to put this treatment on any brand new aluminum wheel...in fact, I'd recommend that you do apply it to your new wheels as soon as you can. The product does nothing to the shine of a billet wheel except protect it and keep it great looking much easier.


Plenty of Bio Cleaner left over which they say you can also use to clean the wheels with now to maintain them, probably enough Metal Sealer to do the outsides of the wheels one more time, the Slick finish it's hard to see but there is still lots of it left also, I barely used any out of the bottle and never even opened the Brite Shine Metal polish.


Later on after I've driven with the wheels and got them dirty a few times I'll revisit and update with how they have held up. I think it's gonna be good though, it HAS to be better than maintaining just the bare billet aluminum.



A year with over 4,000 street miles, several races and road trips in heavy rain, even a day on wet roads with salt residue on them...and the only maintenance has been the occasional rinse off at the car wash and wipe down with a microfiber towel.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-neD1UvEV0g4/VSAHt-Bsy8I/AAAAAAAATio/lk1I1c8xqok/w1218-h685-no/0404151048.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-l6or18sfl5A/VSAH6Rjq0QI/AAAAAAAATjM/7TIiWp0YtXg/w1218-h685-no/0404151048c.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iSKDSldSOn4/VSAH8x1Lz-I/AAAAAAAATjY/r1EeKxxOEfs/w1218-h685-no/0404151048d.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GaYtG9kQsIU/VSAH-8v_sTI/AAAAAAAATjk/Vieoo2mq4lI/w1218-h685-no/0404151048e.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-V334DZAD71w/VSAIBMS80vI/AAAAAAAATjw/1sSx5TVTwwY/w1218-h685-no/0404151049.jpg

They aren't perfect...they've got some crust in the nooks and crannies and some surface scratches in them...but ZERO water spots and still look pretty damn good considering the abuse I put them through in the last year. Yes...I'd use ShineSeal again on any billet rims I own.

[WSSix]

Nice! I'd be happy with those results, too.

[glassman]

Yeah Lance they do still look great. I'd def go this route if i'd kept my Billet's (if only they were wider....lol).

So this is a very similar technology (nano-coatings) we use in the shower door coating biz....works very well...i had never thought of putting a "coating" on the rims (although i've been putting rain-x on autoglass since the 80's)....

:thumbsup:

[SSLance]

While I'm certain there are pro-touring or street cars out there on the road with roll bars or cages that are more significant than this one turned out, I'm also certain that there are cars out on the road and track today with roll bars\cages that are not as safe and secure as this one turned out. There are also other cars out there that are doing track days and such that probably should have a roll bar or cage in them...but don't because the owners don't want to make the changes necessary to put a safety device such as this in their street car. I respect all of those owners decisions...it isn't easy making a modification this drastic to ones car. In fact, I had planned this whole thing out...and then promptly bailed...deciding to not make the change myself. I then stumbled on a great deal on the seats you see here...and it was on again.

This is a 1.75" dia, 0.120" wall 4 point roll bar with a diagonal cross bar and a harness bar. The feet of the main hoop are welded to plates that are welded to the floor of the car directly above a structural floor brace that is also right above where the #4 body mounts connect the frame to the body.

Here is one of the main hoop base plates

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-oMYkD4j5d3s/VSG8r3s0usI/AAAAAAAATpw/Uda7-tCRCUU/w913-h685-no/DSC06135.JPG

and in this picture you can see where the welding burnt through the paint on the bottom side of the floor in front of the brace. This shows the location of the base plate directly over the body mount area.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hy7fNd7WhSk/VSG8pH0mOOI/AAAAAAAATo8/kJQjQLTuQos/w861-h685-no/DSC06128.JPG

The down bars are straight and go back to the rear seat back area where they are welded to plates that are welded to the body structure directly in front of the #5 body mount. It's harder to get clear pictures here, but the body structure behind the plates is where the trunk floor meets the seat back brace and is directly over the frame just in front of the body mount.

Here is the base plate

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JqnahJMB848/VSG8tf5b2vI/AAAAAAAATqE/hA9HmMhZ-cA/w913-h685-no/DSC06138.JPG

And it this picture from the inner fenderwell you can see where the weld burnt through the paint not only on the fender well but also the bottom of the body just in front of the mount.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vvigxmc7wCA/VSFYRYt1u-I/AAAAAAAATmU/QTaY5vbluGA/w1218-h685-no/0405151044.jpg

These cars are built with the body being the main support for the somewhat flimsy frames, not a whole lot different than a typical unibody car. What this bar does is just strengthen that unibody significantly while providing rollover protection as well as a proper shoulder harness mounting location. I'm very happy with how it turned out.

Here are some pictures of the inside. My good friend John bent up some sheet metal based on some cardboard templates I gave him to build a package tray with. This picture shows them in place. I'll eventually have matching carpet that will go from the rear speaker tray down to the floor finishing this area out nicely.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mHdBDckltgM/VSG87oLbb1I/AAAAAAAATq4/Pev5WrV1iUA/w1218-h685-no/0405151407.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QbrhqAj_LIM/VSG87tadeqI/AAAAAAAATq4/1lasPoBiliw/w1218-h685-no/0405151407a.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zYejRQ-uK5c/VSG87o4hUVI/AAAAAAAATq4/SuXVs8yCfwY/w1218-h685-no/0405151407b.jpg

And also a few with the seats reinstalled once again

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wYs05TNnp_U/VSGj5Tbb8RI/AAAAAAAAToE/SXHJ9tn4U8U/w1218-h685-no/0405151606a.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-xgt9iaTDHd4/VSGjx-GuqZI/AAAAAAAATn4/INvuvhRDoDU/w1218-h685-no/0405151606.jpg

Just got the interior all buttoned back in place a few hours ago. I'm having some packaging issues getting the 5 point harnesses mounted the way I want...but there is now a plan in place and that still might happen before my two autocross events next weekend. If not, the factory 3 point belt actually fits me very well in these seats.

BTW, I've really grown to liking these seats. You fall down into them and don't move once there and they are very ergonomically correct which makes them very comfortable for a one piece fiberglass seat without a ton of padding. Eventually I'll look into getting them recovered a burgundy color but they'll do like this for now. Now, crawling back out of them, that's another story... :D I need a grab bar or something to help pull me back out of them when exiting the car.

[DavidBoren]

Great build, sir. I love that you are doing it right (ie. working with Ron Sutton). And the progression in stages with the results of the season at each stage is awesome. I also really like how you and Ron explain the changes you made, and you can verify the benefits with seat time. Thank you for such a thorough build thread.

Nice rollbar, by the way. Car looks really good.

[SSLance]

Thanks for the kind words David... I enjoy sharing my adventures with the class, before, during and after my projects. It's a great way to learn while at the same time maybe helping others learn something along the way as well.

Ron said in his radio podcast interview the other day with Jimi Day and Rob Kibbe that is what has drawn him to the Pro-Touring crowd most of all, the camaraderie, willingness to share...and most of all the way we help each other out any way we can. That feeling doesn't exist in most other motorsports arenas...it is special to us.

[SSLance]

It's funny...this whole interior re-work project was done basically so I could run 5 point harnesses... New seats, new roll bar, everything...and the last thing that is going in is finally in...the harnesses.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hnrDMHwoiio/VSSS7KJ5QbI/AAAAAAAATuc/jO7JZh6pJ0A/w317-h563-no/0407152131.jpg

I ordered some Flanged Alloy Socket Cap Screws, M12 Size, 50MM Length, 1.75MM Pitch and some Nylon-Insert Nonmarring Flange Locknut, Zinc-Plated Class 8 Steel, M12X1.75 Thread Size nuts and was able to use them to fasten the new lap belt brackets and the factory seat belt brackets to the factory holes in the floor. The bolts were long enough that I was able to put the lock nuts on the back side of them to prevent any loosening and give an extra sense of security for the driver. The hole in the lap belt brackets was just big enough to let the bracket swivel on the bolt to desired proper angle.

This is the driver side rocker panel attachment of the harness lap belt outside the carpet and the factory belt bracket under the carpet.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Z7MKsXpD4Tk/VSSSXv6mqwI/AAAAAAAATsw/X7Xkf0Aq9K8/w1001-h563-no/0407152128.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-oBPoEAowX8E/VSSSZumdLwI/AAAAAAAATs8/sIMGYSK-Zi0/w1001-h563-no/0407152128a.jpg

Bad picture but here is the trans tunnel attachment, you can't see the factory belt because it's behind the black harness lap belt.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-of3RZYq9vqc/VSSSMjyXlbI/AAAAAAAATsk/oTpSFjo6ABE/w1001-h563-no/0407152127a.jpg

And the shoulder belt attachment points.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1ZRMFjj2yqw/VSSSmkrQfUI/AAAAAAAATt4/NANAsUorulg/w1001-h563-no/0407152129a.jpg

One of the brackets I needed for the submarine belt is on backorder so I haven't installed them yet. I can see the need for them though as I noticed when I was sitting in the seat and pulling the shoulder belts tight, the lap belt pulled up from across my hips into my abdomen. I'll get those in when the bracket gets here...shouldn't be a big deal.

Can't wait to see how the new belts and seats hold me in position better when out on course...this Saturday!!!

[GregWeld]

Ah --- all that we do in the name of "racing". LOL Nice work Lance!



In the Mustang --- I have to be very careful where the connection/release point is in relation to my belly and the bottom of the steering wheel! I have short legs (only my legs! LOL) and have to sit pretty close to the wheel.... if I'm not careful with the sub belt length -- and pull the shoulders tight - it puts the release in "interference" with the bottom of the steering wheel and I've released the belts while cornering! That's not a good feeling on the road course -- you have to come in because you just can't continue being loose in the seat.

[SSLance]

Maybe sneaking in a salad every now and then and laying off the cheeseballs might help with that Greg! lol...

I think I'm alright in that scenario, I'm more concerned about having room for my elbows flaying about... I used to run my GTO seats up pretty close to the wheel basically to make sure my right foot could get up on the gas pedal to make sure I was getting full WOT. If I try to run these Recaros up that close, I run out of room for my left elbow as it hits the seat bolster and door panel.

I've reconfigured the gas pedal a bit to make it easier to get WOT without having my foot way up on it and I'm hoping that is my cure. We'll just have to see how it all fits once I make a run or two.

The lap belts are a mo-fo to adjust...for some reason I can't pull up on the adjuster to pull them tight without having a bit of slack in the lap belt itself. What I ended up doing last night was to unlatch the belt, snug it up, then suck my gut in while relatching the belt. I got it tight and centered that way but if I have to reposition the seat for any reason, I'll have to readjust the belt again. That is not going to be fun when hopping in the car for another quick run on the autocross course. That's what the test n tune the day before is for I guess...to get all of that stuff set.

It is going to be more of a pain for any passengers I take for ridealongs. Getting them strapped in (people who most likely aren't accustomed to harnesses anyway) might be cumbersome because they all might be different sizes...

[Panteracer]

I still use the old latch type belts.. still 5 belts- and new to date
I have had a few people tell me they have accidentally
unhooked everything just moving around.. not for me
Plus I am still old school... but mostly old

Bob

[GregWeld]

I fixed that whole strapping in thing with two mods...

#1 - removed passenger seat completely


#2 - Hired Sutton... he helps me get organized


LOL



#########################


You're spot on with the gut comment..... and I've started to work out again with a trainer 3 days a week. So that's FIX NUMBER 3

[SSLance]

This weekend all of the off season prep was put to the test. It's where the rubber meets the road as they say. Our local SCCA test n tune was Saturday, and our Event 1 was Sunday. Weather was perfect for Saturday, couldn't have been any better...Sunday...not so much. Huge thunderstorms and rain all morning long, we finally got our first car off a little after noon and the track dried pretty well, but was still cool and damp and the conditions made us have to improvise on the course making it much more choppy and technical with no high speed zones at all. But hey...it was still racing and that's better than not racing.

Here's my best run from yesterday taken from the GoPro behind the seats.

RAnkLxtYnEY

And here's the same run showing how well the new Recaro seats and Simpson belts are holding the driver in place.

hv8UEoCxpgY

Had a great weekend, car did great, driver did okay once the rust was shook off... Had a half second lead in class through 4 runs yesterday and on the 5th run Patrick picked up 7 tenths which is huge...and clipped me by a tenth for the class win.

We were about a tenth apart on Saturday as well at the test n tune. So much fun racing with someone right at the same speed you are...had a blast.

Here are a couple of runs from the test n tune on Saturday, was a much more open course...got well into the 5,000 RPM range where the new power kicked in several times during a run.

XbNuIHjLBZE

[SSLance]

Oh yeah, I forgot the best part...

Noticed the rear axle bearing gone bad vibration yet once again on the way home yesterday. :ohsnap: :waveflag: :mad:

[DavidBoren]

I think it might be time for a new axle. Maybe a Ron Sutton decoupled 3-link, as well. That should end this axle bearing nonsense once and for all. Then again, it's really easy for me to spend other people's money.

I'm glad to hear your fancy carburetor is working well for you.

[SSLance]

While I agree a decoupled three link would be awesome, you have to remember that this is a budget build that I race for a hobby. I am not racing this car for a living! :D

I basically have the same three choices that I had last year when it started eating axle bearings.

(1) keep replacing them as needed (getting good at it and they are cheap)

(2) upgrade to tapered bearing axles (about $300 with a slightly better bearing setup)

(3) convert axle ends to full floaters ($$ not only for the ends, but also the new rear brake package that has to come along with the new floater ends).

Then, if going that route...it only makes more sense to upgrade the front brake package similarly at the same time so they remain a balanced brake setup. $$$$

I just don't want to spend the money to do a full brake upgrade to resolve a problem that costs me $25 bearings a couple of times a season.

I'm pretty certain the left bearing is failing this time and it was replaced before the Optima event last July...it's had a BUNCH of abuse on it since then. The tapered bearing axle setup might be the prudent choice here but I'm not sure just how much better they'll be than the current bearings are considering what I do with the car? Need to sleep on it and check out my schedule...then decide.

[DavidBoren]

The tapered bearing sounds like the best choice. However, if the tapered bearing does not fix the problem, are they just as easy and economical to replace? Can you convert back to the non-tapered bearing if you need or want to? The full floater and associated brake upgrades would be awesome and all, but it would also be awesome to just change to bearings that do not leak and break.

[Ron Sutton]

The floater rear end itself isn't expensive. A complete new Speedway Engineering 9" Ford floater rear end with bubs, bearings, axles, etc is $1295.

if someone is building from scratch, it is a no brainer. But Lance ... you'd need to get new suspension brackets to weld on or have Speedway weld them on ... and new rear brakes. So it starts to add up.

You still have some "credit" on the books ... so let me know ... :)

[Mizzouri]

Indeed it was an awesome weekend! Most of which I spent chasing your times. :catfight:

Those new seats of yours are far far more comfortable than I could have guessed from the pictures. I could easily make those daily drivers. I really wish I had one in the TA.

I am really curious how Keith rebounds after getting his wheel bearing fixed and the new 1LE shocks thrown in before Topeka. Another 3 way fight...sounds like pure win to me!


This weekend all of the off season prep was put to the test. It's where the rubber meets the road as they say. Our local SCCA test n tune was Saturday, and our Event 1 was Sunday. Weather was perfect for Saturday, couldn't have been any better...Sunday...not so much. Huge thunderstorms and rain all morning long, we finally got our first car off a little after noon and the track dried pretty well, but was still cool and damp and the conditions made us have to improvise on the course making it much more choppy and technical with no high speed zones at all. But hey...it was still racing and that's better than not racing.

Here's my best run from yesterday taken from the GoPro behind the seats.



And here's the same run showing how well the new Recaro seats and Simpson belts are holding the driver in place.


Had a great weekend, car did great, driver did okay once the rust was shook off... Had a half second lead in class through 4 runs yesterday and on the 5th run Patrick picked up 7 tenths which is huge...and clipped me by a tenth for the class win.

We were about a tenth apart on Saturday as well at the test n tune. So much fun racing with someone right at the same speed you are...had a blast.

Here are a couple of runs from the test n tune on Saturday, was a much more open course...got well into the 5,000 RPM range where the new power kicked in several times during a run.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Great videos. Sounds like the car ran as usual. :thumbsup:

That's cool that you had someone close to you that you could compare to.

I went racing Saturday too and the closest cars I had to compare to were 4 late model Mustangs and a C5 and a C6 corvette. The rest were little imports. Wish there were more PT cars in the Vegas area that would actually use their cars. :(

Bummer about the bearings, but it sounds like you've got it under control for now.

[SSLance]

Indeed it was an awesome weekend! Most of which I spent chasing your times. :catfight:


I need to learn to quit giving you tips in grid between runs!! :D


Great videos. Sounds like the car ran as usual. :thumbsup:

That's cool that you had someone close to you that you could compare to.

I went racing Saturday too and the closest cars I had to compare to were 4 late model Mustangs and a C5 and a C6 corvette. The rest were little imports. Wish there were more PT cars in the Vegas area that would actually use their cars. :(

Bummer about the bearings, but it sounds like you've got it under control for now.

Nothing wrong with comparing yourself to the little imports, I love beating them too...

Sunday's Event 1 raw time results

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2015/2015event1_raw.htm

And by class showing each individual run time

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2015/2015event1_fin.htm

Ordered the new axles with tapered bearing setup yesterday, hopefully get them in and installed before the next event. I'd probably race on these one more time, but our next event is in Topeka and it's an 80 mile drive each way and a two day event...they won't last that whole weekend for sure.

[fleetus macmullitz]

Lance,

Very cool to see these new updates and how far your SS has come since you started tastin' that Sutton secret sauce. :unibrow:

[SSLance]

Thanks...it's been one heck of a journey. The car is SO much fun to drive...everyone seems to love riding in it also.

[SSLance]

Okay, lets hope these do the trick...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Hc9VSbGvlB4/VTf5H4MJDAI/AAAAAAAAT6o/03QQ9Ve2ly4/w1001-h563-no/0422151440.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ytze9CG-KEs/VTf3Cj044dI/AAAAAAAAT58/-hwJa579iuk/w1001-h563-no/0422151431.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-TyHRaXZUJko/VTf29eJoFqI/AAAAAAAAT5w/-OmfWEylxT0/w1001-h563-no/0422151430a.jpg

They aren't exactly as I pictured them to be in my mind...but I think they should just slide into place exactly as the radial bearings did. We'll find out tonight. I'm glad to see the Timken stamp on them for sure.

[DavidBoren]

One would think that a tapered bearing would handle/distribute lateral stresses better, and the Moser/Timken combination hopefully will take the abuse.

I really hope that fixes it.

[SSLance]

5 point harnesses... #becauseracecar

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-misD9uOFS_E/VUZhWkQe2dI/AAAAAAAAUY4/dBkZYuR8jHg/w385-h684-no/0503151256.jpg


Carpet... #becausestreetcar

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-AjtHlpDDr6o/VUZhiEWtuqI/AAAAAAAAUZo/lZ_oso1ZZn0/w1218-h685-no/0503151257c.jpg

Even fixed the horn button too.

I'm calling my offseason projects complete, and successful.