1985 Monte Carlo SS known as Barney [Archive] - Page 2

SSLance

05-04-2015, 08:01 PM

All buttoned up and ready for the next event on the 17th?

Car is completely ready...driver not so much. Have an out of town graduation to attend that day.

Lance, what Recaro seat did you end up with? is it a fixed back and/or on sliders in case somebody else drives it? or is it just built for you?

I need 5pts in my setup (#becauseracecar doensn't always equal #becausesstreetcar) and i rather race.

These are the Profi-SPGXLs, fixed back fiberglass on sliders with a ton of adjustment room. Being able to fit your arse into the seat is the only limiting factor with these (already had to decline one ridealong as the guy couldn't fit his arse into the pass seat).

I also retained the factory 3 point belts and use those with these seats when driving on the street which is a real nice feature.

Comfy seats with comfy restraints #becausestreetcar
Comfy seats with 5 point harnesses for race day #becauseracecar

Best of both worlds.

We took it for a 45 minute drive yesterday afternoon to go to a cousin's son's graduation party, was great to just go out for a cruise in the complete car again. One of Terri's cousin's husband brought his fun car as well... We were parked not too far apart and later as the party was dwindling down we went out to check out each others rides. His car was like the anti-Barney...it was a Tesla... :D

His car, when you walk up to it, the door handles automatically extrude from the body inviting you to open the doors with them, I have to stick a key in the door and turn it just to unlock my doors. He presses a button on his key fob and his "hood" opens automatically...I have to hit the top of my hood just right with the palm of my hand to get my hood latch to release after pulling the cable handle from inside the car. It was pretty neat though, my first time checking out a Tesla...and I think their first time sitting in Recaro race seats in a 30 year old luxury car turned race machine.

Amazing the difference in technology during the 30 years between the two cars.

Our ride back how was just as nice, cruising the back roads with the windows down. Pretty glad to have the car back on the road again fully in one piece.

SSLance

05-14-2015, 11:34 AM

Great Googly Moogly.... Look at this!! Barney's new front sway bar.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-HxvROnDT72g/VVTUfcvUMRI/AAAAAAAAUsg/dlN2H2_tFGc/w1001-h563-no/0514151200.jpg

That's a 1.5" diameter, 0.375" wall center piece for my Ridetech front MuscleBar.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-e6fFZpabyxw/VVTVwBrb7pI/AAAAAAAAUto/TrD4pYK15NI/w1001-h563-no/0514151205.jpg

Ain't she a beaut?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-V9fJKvfM_3M/VVTWD2pxbSI/AAAAAAAAUuA/lGHRDH_zzLs/w317-h563-no/0514151206a.jpg

Now I have a dilemma though. I have a big event in 3 weeks...USCA at National Corvette Museum...and not a lot of time to prepare for it.

Last fall I swapped the last big sway bar upgrade in the car right before heading to the SCCA Solo Nationals and I swore I'd never make any big changes to the car right before a big event again.

Now, just how bad did I swear? :D

Ben@SpeedTech

05-14-2015, 12:34 PM

Put it in and drive it... a lot. Just think, you've got 2.8 weeks to hammer on it and a couple days to swap it back if you don't like it. :)

Rough # on spring rate?

DavidBoren

05-14-2015, 01:04 PM

Put it in tonight. Drive the snot out of it for a while, and see if you like it. You can always switch it back if you don't.

SSLance

05-14-2015, 01:28 PM

Past experience dictates that is is pretty hard to replicate an autocross turn...when not on an actual autocross course. You can get close...but the difference between close and really getting it right can make all the difference in the world in balance.

I don't like driving a car that isn't balanced, it isn't any fun. I'd rather drive one just a tad slower that I KNOW works then drive one that will step out at any given moment without any warning.

Mizzouri

05-14-2015, 01:31 PM

You coming for Saturday and/or Sunday? Plenty of time to get yse to yhe new bar!

SSLance

05-14-2015, 01:35 PM

I'm out of town this weekend Patrick, all you have to worry about is beating Keith with all of the new replacement parts on his car.

GregWeld

05-14-2015, 03:23 PM

Put it on!! Or why bother ordering it.... LOL

Just do it. Besides - if you overhead press it a few times you'll build up some biceps... That thing is a whopper!

Ron Sutton

05-14-2015, 06:14 PM

We're taking his "Low Roll" strategy to the next level. :)

Ron Sutton

05-14-2015, 06:43 PM

Lance, I ran the calcs ...

You need to replace the 200# rear springs with 250# rear springs.

:trophy-1302:

SSLance

05-14-2015, 08:14 PM

Crap... and I've already got the 250# springs in stock too... :D

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a touch concerned about this bar pulling the bolts out of the frame up front. The frame is only .120 thick with m10 bolts threaded into one layer of it. The Ridetech mounts use the two factory sway bar mount holes and you then drill and tap a third hole a bit further up for the part that goes over the bar. When I put the first Ridetech bar in, I popped the threads out of one hole in the frame on the passenger side when tightened the bolts up. I was lucky as I could get a nut on the back side and used that to secure the mount. The ones on the driver side are completely boxed in, no way to get a nut on the backside of the frame there. Only fix is to weld a new nut into the frame.

If the same thing happened during the install of this new bar, or worse yet...during the event...I'd be screwed. It's not something I can't fix, but it's not something I want to be thrashing to fix so soon before or worse during the event.

Sieg

05-14-2015, 09:29 PM

Quit making excuses, trust the man and get to work! :underchair:

Just from analyzing photos of the car I completely agree with the rear spring rate increase.

That bar looks like it could control the USS Missouri in rough seas. :D

Can you make a hole saw cut forward and away from the stress zone on the frame horn that would allow you to feed a thick washer and nut to the mount bolt location with piece if bendable wire? Hot melt glue the washer to the wire to position it, same with the nut. :headscratch:

SSLance

05-15-2015, 05:07 AM

I don't think cutting a hole in the frame is the answer, I believe if it did occur, the best response is to drill out the hole in the frame and weld a nut into place in the hole. This would give much more meat for the bolt to grab onto from then on...as long as the welder didn't blow out the frame in the area during the process. :underchair:

I just don't have the free time to take care of an incidental such as this should it occur before June 5th. As much as I would like to have it on, I don't think it's the right move for me.

Too many other things occupying my limited free time between now and then.

But please...continue badgering me into it...it shows me that you all care and only want my car to be as fast as it can be!! lol...

WSSix

05-15-2015, 06:08 AM

I think I have sway bar envy. :confused59:

SSLance

05-15-2015, 06:58 AM

We're taking his "Low Roll" strategy to the next level. :)

I think this is what...Stage 4 of the Ron Sutton Race Technology secret sauce improvements...

:gitrdun: :thankyou: :cheers: :excited: :hapdance: :dance:

I'm certain it'll be every bit as successful as Stages 1-3 have been.

WSSix

05-15-2015, 11:15 AM

I love big sway bars. I had one on the front of my 4th gen and it did wonders in the curves. I most likely will be changing the front and maybe rear bars in the TA. I think stock WS6 leaves room for improvement. I need to make sure my springs are good first though.

Glad to know the car is working well for you, Lance!

SSLance

05-25-2015, 05:08 PM

So with a big track day coming up, I took this weekend to tidy up some loose ends. First job was to replace the rear hard brake lines on the axle. My old ones had had the exhaust dropped on them a few too many times.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-QmZpRqpTzeA/VWJPcOJj0hI/AAAAAAAAU8A/hvnkHKtC8_c/w1218-h685-no/0524151723.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DkQeixucvRU/VWJPj-oes6I/AAAAAAAAU8M/voxMtbtHpYg/w1218-h685-no/0524151723a.jpg

Think this will make a difference in brake performance?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-MuLLMGxsLOQ/VWJWsy8cVdI/AAAAAAAAU8g/X8zrqo-V_OM/w1218-h685-no/0524151754.jpg

I then flushed the old DOT3 out and replaced it with fresh Motul 600 and bled the brakes (with the wife's help).

Today I tidied up the trunk area a bit and then snugged the body bolts back up. 5-6 of them were a 1/2-3/4s turn loose.

As i was putting the rear tires back on I looked at the lug nuts and said to myself "Self, you really should replace those, they are looking kind of ragged" and then I promptly pulled the threads out of when when snugging it down.

Lugnuts are a wear item and after 250 or so torques tight (some of take our wheels off A LOT), they probably should be replaced.

Anyway, feel a lot better about the car being ready for the USCA at NCM. Now it just needs a good cleaning and some TLC in some details areas for some extry points in the D&E portion.

Oh...and I did NOT put the new sway bar in... Much as I would like to, I just can't chance an issue with it before the trip. We have a party at our house this Saturday and a local race on Sunday...then just a few days before we leave for Kentucky. No extra time to deal with issues or incidentals...

SSLance

06-13-2015, 01:06 PM

So the trip to USCA at NCM went pretty well I guess...car did good, driver did okay...there are a couple of videos and pics on my event report thread.

On the cool down lap of the third session of the road course, I heard a slight grinding noise speed related. I put the car on the trailer at that point and decided to diagnose when I got home. Upon inspection today, I found this.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/LVpx4D2GOGxmal3jUIhlHDKA_eE1fNpPBUifATTrU4sj=w1378-h775-no

Driver side front inside wheel bearing was just starting to eat itself. The grease in that bearing was cooked.

Here is the pass side next to it, pass side was still tight and rotated smoothly.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/M9W3NgVVr9NS7fd2MxMGj9tpvRjVF64dSo9_TA7obl_J=w1378-h775-no

Super glad I stopped when I did, it would have surely completely failed in just a couple more laps at speed.

Since I had it all apart anyway, I pulled out the brake pads to inspect. These are EBC YellowStuffR pads that are about a year and a half old with maybe 200 autocross runs on them and 1 and a half track days.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Td7I0ij18qoZr7lm_wjDSiXKFLx8crfn3xY-5ihMKqsk=w1378-h775-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/JGL3-fL9ZdjHB7f7fc-T-xpO6n8--_3iAPrTdQtfTfHC=w1378-h775-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4gnRp-BH3dX9IXCi7G_126f5ZFIzyXk5hszjGCUqvM6i=w1378-h775-no

There is still plenty of pad left, but they are glazed over and actually starting to come apart around the edges. The rear pads look similar.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/q3MlwBmUfXvY1C61QJ2hvSZtarYg2g1h41WOvbiCU-nU=w1378-h775-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/uOnNlE_vCkKu3KhQMLSx24u2B_8f2mRV9xmouZLFoYGg=w1378-h775-no

As I was checking the rotor temps during my post session stat taking, I noticed the rear rotors were about 100 degrees hotter than my fronts. I'm assuming this is because they are hidden behind dust shields and the front rotors aren't. Check out how hot the rear pads got...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qE9a8jPEcOQ2UtLuUZXVCJ4TnZGFdgaPlSgdE2Fdv2bs=w1378-h775-no

It actually starting boiling the coating off of the back side of the pad.

Thankfully these are all pretty easy repairs and fall under the "wear and tear" category. New bearings, seals and pads will go back on soon.

The other issue will take a bit more thought...and money...to fix.

tEeAaKxgCM0

Driver side is better which makes me think the diff itself is starting to come apart. This is a 9" with a 31 spline tracloc diff that was refreshed with new bearings and seals about this time last year. I've been driving through the posi coming out of both left and right autocross turns, lifting and spinning the inside rear tire. Time to seriously consider some sort of upgrade here.

Ben@SpeedTech

06-15-2015, 07:14 AM

Glad you caught that bearing before things got ugly.

Was this your first road course event? Tell us more about the experience and how it was to play with the pony cars in the G body. :popcorn2:

SSLance

06-15-2015, 07:36 AM

I guess this was my 4th track day experience with this car. First was a SCCA PDX at Heartland Park Topeka, then a 2 day NASA HPDE at Heartland Park, last summer I did the USCA event at Gateway in St Louis then this USCA event at National Corvette Museum Motorsports park.

HPT is big, fast, has a couple of difficult corners depending on the configuration you are running but is basically a fun course to run that eats tires like crazy.

I loved Gateway, could run the whole course with basically only two braking points, was very easy on the car, didn't eat tires and the driver could really make a car work on that course once they learned it. Part of that course, maybe even half...is on the NASCAR oval and is basically just straight line fast while the rest is fast turns easily handling if setup properly.

NCM was a whole 'nuther beast... It's basically all technical turns with little runoff and large K-rail barriers everywhere and several elevation changes that create some blind corners. The surface is fantastic, butter smooth and very grippy, tire wear was next to none for me which really shocked me considering how hot it was there. I couldn't imagine learning this track on my own, I took advantage of an instructor even on the beginning lead follow laps and am glad I did. This is not a track to mess around with, there is almost zero chance to breath or relax on a lap. I spent session one learning what corner was coming up next, 8-9 laps maybe...and began picking up a little speed...not really worrying about outpacing other cars or anything, just learning the track. I had my fastest lap on lap one at speed of session 2 then our session was cut short after about 3 laps because of an incident. I was just getting to where I didn't have to think about which corner was coming up next at this point.

I did session 3 on my own as my instructor was in another car and started working on bettering my line, getting my brake and turn in points down and trying to find the best shift points. I let other cars by twice as I was thinking I was holding them up but really we were all running about the same times overall. This is NOT a track to be worrying about the car behind you running you down, it will bite you in an instant and you need to be concentrating on what is coming up in front of you...so I didn't really get into "racing" any of the other cars I was around. Self preservation was the key here at least for me anyway. It was just starting to get "fun" for me, I was learning the track and where and what to do with my car to get around the corners carrying more speed...I never really started to push the car hard in the corners or brake points. Then it was over... I heard the wheel bearing just as soon as I let off when I saw the checkered flag and knew immediately my day was done.

I would go back to NCM for sure. I would just be a bit more prepared, a bit more knowledgeable about the track and ready to run some faster laps right out of the box.

Ben@SpeedTech

06-15-2015, 08:04 AM

Thanks for the insight. Sounds like a good time!

SSLance

06-20-2015, 01:48 PM

Pretty good day in the garage today. I started in the front and swapped out my 0.250" wall front sway bar for my 0.375" wall MonsterBar...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BVR5h3SCy6BMdIMr6mPLeOdv39xjEJRdr66OFogvImFN=w1378-h775-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c0p3TDy4P8uJDpkP2FYc-A9-MaY-Gj4bpp_QQRZBS_1R=w1378-h775-no

Install was pretty painless, the only fight I had was getting the 3 cap head bolts out of the swing arms. Ended up using a combination of heat, penetrant and patience. When I first put this bar in, these kept coming loose...so I put a dab of blue loctite on them to help keep them snug. Problem is the back side of the hole they go in is open and rust built up in there and made removal somewhat difficult. I put a liberal coat of antiseize on them before reinstall but I assume they'll start coming loose again after use. I'll just keep an eye on them for now while trying to come up with a better solution. No issues with the frame holes at all thankfully.

I then tried to install these trick front wheel bearing spacers from AllStar.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HaLBszg_lLvHbG2NcBSpzBI_klHBsESkM14GjgXx8V4m=w1378-h775-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5xAAoW9dQH6vYaYi_Pqde6ydm-TlPabbCw8bvsllIDLN=w436-h775-no

They are adjustable in length and let you preload the inner and outer bearing races so you can snug the spindle nut up tight while letting the rotor still turn freely.

AllStar has been wanting me to try these for a while so I figured since I had to replace the wheel bearings anyway, this was a good time.

Unfortunately, my rotors (which are still in fantastic shape) have too small of an ID near the outer bearing and the spacers won't work in them. I guess I could put these rotors on a lathe and trim out the inside of the rotor a bit, but with a race coming up next Sunday I need to get this thing back on the ground for now. This upgrade will have to be postponed for now, but I'll figure out a way to make them work eventually.

My last project for the front was to press out the old stock length wheel studs and replace them with 2.5" ARP wheel studs. This is where I got stalled as I need some different plates for my press to be able to get the last 4 studs in. I know I could run them in with a lugnut and if I was in a pinch I would, but I have the plates I need at work and will pick them up tonight, finish these up and pack the outer bearings and reinstall the rotors.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/EPTlsAmwrM-h1_UURShSx4wE6fyo3ug6s4UHqzGX4e3N=w436-h775-no

I had a rebuilt TracLoc installed into my third member and this fixed the backlash issue. Just a quick reinstall of the third member, then the axles..and lastly swap 250# springs in the rear for the 200# springs to match the rear roll resistance with the new stiffer front sway bar and the rear is just about tidied up as well.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/JSEBy-ncAyfe9BkCSlrniWaiuExK-PyCT_UUWQbG40Xk=w1378-h775-no

Still waiting on my new brake pads to show up, should be here on Monday. Then I can get this thing back down on the ground, bed the new pads in and spend some time getting used to the new Stage 4 Ron Sutton Race Technology high travel, lower roll setup before next weekend.

BTW,Check out this little blurb about the car from the guys at BangShift Apex that came out yesterday...

http://bangshift.com/bangshiftapex/bangshiftapex-videos/aced-autocross-every-day-ride-along-with-lance-hamilton-in-his-bitchin-g-body/

fleet

06-20-2015, 04:21 PM

Great update as always.

Nice write-up on Bangshift too...congrats. :thumbsup:

So, are ya sellin' any 'Lance is da G-man' tees yet?

:D

WSSix

06-20-2015, 06:51 PM

Lance, you can maybe run safety wired bolts on your sway bar to keep from having to use loctite. Just a thought. Car's looking good. Congrats on the write up.

Ben@SpeedTech

06-22-2015, 07:36 AM

Cool Stuff Lance! Looking forward to seeing the results! Congrats on the Bangshift ride!

SSLance

06-22-2015, 07:47 AM

Thanks everyone... I made some small progress on Sunday, got the rest of studs pressed in and the front rotors reinstalled...and de-decaled most of the car for now.

The new brake pads will be here today, shouldn't take any time at all to get them in...bedded in...then get some seat time getting used to the new Stage 4 setup.

65_LS1_T56

06-22-2015, 09:07 AM

Great update as always.

Nice write-up on Bangshift too...congrats. :thumbsup:

So, are ya sellin' any 'Lance is da G-man' tees yet?

:D

I'll take 2 G-man tees :)

SSLance

06-29-2015, 07:51 AM

Good day at the track yesterday. It was my first attempt at driving on course after Stage 4 of the Ron Sutton Race Technology high travel low roll setup was installed. Stage 4 consisted of a major increase in the stiffness of the front sway bar matched by a slight increase in the rear spring rate. Along with those changes, I also had new brake pads front and rear, a new posi in the rear axle and was trying a new set of air pressures front and rear based off of what I learned at NCM couple of weeks ago...so yeah, a lot of changes really.

The course was great, we all had a blast on it. It was free flowing, no pinch points, visually great, it was FUN. The car was a bit loose in the early runs, not step out sideways unpredictable loose, just a oopsy...gotta catch that there a bit free. I backed out one click on rear shock rebound as it was lifting the inside rear tire on corner entry and started lowering the rear tire pressure a pound at a time. This was my tire sheet after my first run

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rjcc-2wgbrBk1yDOjFGsPAjPdQFYSjBf0uytuDDWz1pd=w1161-h653-no

I started out with 37 psi in fronts, 35 psi in the rears. For a long time, I've been starting at 33 in the front, 32 in the rear. Not sure if it's in combination with the new front sway bar or not, but 37 in the fronts works a LOT better. 35 in the rear was too much, I started my 4th run at 37F, 32R and it worked great. This was my tire sheet after my 3rd run, I didn't check them after my 4th when I ran with 32 PSI in the rear.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UnBRFTp6AH3P77cbZ5BjvoS4oHbEoviDH-phVq09LiIj=w1161-h653-no

Here is a video of my 4th and best run, I already had a good time in the books and was really trying to let it all out. Pay attention to how flat the front stays in the slalom on the back, that is where I noticed the most improvement over stage 3.

xsOAr3MoT94

Ron has made this car turn in really well ever since Stage 1, when the front suspension is compressed under braking, it just worked great. Where the front was lacking a bit would have been in the slalom or later in larger turns where the suspension wasn't compressed therefore hurting the front tire contact patch.

What this new MonsterBar does (and Ron will probably chime in here and correct the way I'm describing this) is on those longer turns or during the slalom where the front isn't compressed because of braking, when you turn the steering wheel, instead of the outside front dipping, rolling the car over too much and messing with the contact patch, the whole front of the car compresses and keep a better contact patch up front on both tires and more weight on the front as well. It is a HUGE difference in how the car handles and will take a bit more time on the driver's part learning how to take advantage of this new found front grip.

The best part is, this change up front did not make the rear any worse. Once I got the car dialed in, the rear is just a tick free on corner exit, just like it was before Stage 4. It is completely controllable though, not even close to being edgy. In the video you will notice two places where the rear was pretty free, but that was 100% course related. When you go from grooved concrete, to smooth asphalt, then back to grooved concrete all in one pretty fast turn, you are going to loose a bit of grip during the asphalt part of the turn. Also the last decreasing radius sweeper before the finish, the pavement is giving up pretty bad there and it's always a tiptoe through there at speed.

The timed results were encouraging, I finished 22nd in raw time out of 133 entrants and 2nd in class losing by just under a second to a 2015 Mustang with brand new 315mm Rival Ss on all four corners.

Here are the class results

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2015/2015event6_fin.htm#camc

And the raw time results

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2015/2015event6_raw.htm

When looking at the raw times, you should note that the Heat 1 drivers had a mostly wet course due to rain. I think it was drying out pretty good for their 3 and 4th runs but there was still some pretty wet spots during the course walk between 1 and 2. Everyone else ran in the dry though.

Anyway, I can't wait to get back out on course and test the new setup some more. I'm thankful to Ron that it was basically fast off the trailer (or highway since I drove it to the track) and only needed some minor tweaking to dial it in. I'm sure as I push it more it'll need a bit more tweaking but so far...so good.

SSLance

06-29-2015, 08:35 AM

I should also mention that using Ron Sutton's post run data collection practices has brought awareness to another issue I have with the car that needs to be addressed. Can anyone else pick out the issue?

Ben@SpeedTech

06-29-2015, 08:36 AM

Man that does look like a fun course! Glad to hear your changes are working. Thanks for the insight too, I appreciate you sharing the experience.

Quick question on tire pressures- My 275 NT555s on 9.5" wheels seem to like 41 F, 40 R lbs of pressure. I've tried them at lower pressures but the car feels a lot more loose. You've had 3 different tires on this car, the NT555s, the Hoosiers, and now the Falkens. Did you see a big range of pressures between the street, race, and now street/race tires?

SSLance

06-29-2015, 08:42 AM

Oh yeah, it seems they all like something different. I've been all over the board trying to figure out what it likes.

It is not until you are poking a pyrometer into the treads, outside middle and inside of the tire directly after a run that you really learn what is going on though. The goal is even temps across the tire as you come off the track...this is how you know you have the tire pressures correct.

Ben@SpeedTech

06-29-2015, 11:05 AM

Thanks Lance. I've been eyeballing a pyrometer from Speedway motors, definitely on the need to get list. :)

Guessing what else is needing tuning-

Right side tires are working harder and running hotter. More right turns than left? Left tires unloading in right hand turns?

Right rear tire isn't getting full contact and is heating the outside more than the inside?

Rear brakes are getting hotter than front. Brake bias is off?

Rod P

06-29-2015, 11:34 AM

We're taking his "Low Roll" strategy to the next level. :)

:hapdance: finally welcome to the dark side....we have cookies

SSLance

06-29-2015, 11:35 AM

Right side tires are working harder and running hotter. More right turns than left? Left tires unloading in right hand turns?

More left turns that right turns attributed to this, is normal.

Right rear tire isn't getting full contact and is heating the outside more than the inside?

Probably because I was leaning on the right rear pretty hard in the last turn off the course, maybe some axle flange flex?

Rear brakes are getting hotter than front. Brake bias is off?

Bingo...

I thought it was an anomaly when it first showed at NCM couple weeks ago, attributed it to glazed over front pads and dust shields on the rear. With brand new pads all around and it showed it's ugly head again...it is a pattern.

I think I know what it is, just haven't decided on the cure yet. I still run the factory brake proportioning valve which holds a little pressure on the rear brakes after the pedal is released. Apparently it's the reason why I have no complaints about pad knock back with my rear discs like everyone else not running a floater complains about.

It obviously has other drawbacks though...

I've been running it like that since I put the 9" in 5 years ago, I've just never had my post run data collection this refined to nail it down like I did last couple of events.

SSLance

06-29-2015, 11:59 AM

:hapdance: finally welcome to the dark side....we have cookies

Cookies? did somebody say cookies... :excited:

SSLance

07-20-2015, 08:01 AM

I spent the day yesterday autocrossing with the Gateway Autox group...and by the day...I mean the whole damn day!! It was sort of the tale of two tracks, the first 8 runs in the morning session were on a rain soaked, standing water everywhere, type of surface and the second set of 8 runs (yes, 16 runs total in one day!!) were on a somewhat dry surface.

Even with the weather, the event was fantastic, well worth the 4 hour drive to attend. Huge thanks to the Luebcke family for hosting me the night before and keeping me nourished and refreshed throughout the day. Really enjoyed racing and just hanging out with you all, have to do it again soon. It was also good to see the rest of the KC group that came over to race, Frank, Georgia and Keith and to meet up with some STL friends like Dan and Eric. You all know it's your turn to come to KC for an event now right?

Here's the tale of two runs, first is my second run in the rain where I was still trying to figure out where the grip was...and where it wasn't and the second run was my fastest of the day in the dry. What a fun course...really enjoyed running on it.

FPjftt_dHJM

It is now time for some new tires...for sure...they should be here on Wednesday.

I also need to do something to back off on the rear brakes. The Ron Sutton Race Technology Stage 4 setup is working great in the slaloms and twisties letting the car carry way more speed there, but too much rear brake is making the car loose on corner entry which is holding the car back in the sharper turns. I've got a couple of quick fixes I may try, while planning a more important permanent fix for the future. It's true what they say, the more you fix, the better you make the car (and the driver), the more the little things that are still wrong show up...

Ron in SoCal

07-20-2015, 08:37 AM

It's true what they say, the more you fix, the better you make the car (and the driver), the more the little things that are still wrong show up...

Ain't that the truth! Glad you had fun Lance :cheers:

SSLance

07-22-2015, 09:15 AM

So, this picture was taken during entry into the fastest 90 degree turn on the course last Sunday.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pzWLXFL9gqM/Va_AqJCLh4I/AAAAAAAAXMA/94Z69XuD8DM/w782-h519-no/11709591_10204799365404989_8823125656645401262_n.j pg

To me, it looks like the Ridetech MonsterBar is holding the front pretty dang flat.

This picture is taken entering the next fastest 90 degree turn. I believe my rear braking issue is showing up here as at this point in the run my pads were fully heated up and the rear brakes were making the rear axle wheel hop under braking and turn in. That might just be the driver rear tire up in the air...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-LYK5AWTHqzw/Va_AqIKdUTI/AAAAAAAAXMI/xrY7QteI7oI/w782-h519-no/11738138_10204799365444990_6098075023157962110_n.j pg

Front is still pretty flat though considering how far the pass front suspension is compressed.

This picture was taken during a high speed, off camber slalom turn.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-eg0Rpa1LUvY/Va_AqOaFMEI/AAAAAAAAXME/ETKrLzklMsk/w850-h519-no/11224162_10204799364804974_870446144032243137_n.jp g

I can't get over how well this car slaloms now with Stage 4 installed, I'm still trying to find the limits there. It's like a completely different car now...

Ben@SpeedTech

07-22-2015, 09:28 AM

Looks awesome! A lot less body roll than before, just gotta keep those contact patches on the ground! ;) Lol!

SSLance

07-25-2015, 01:51 PM

Bought a set of O'Reilly's finest OEM style brakebest pads for the rear and put them in today (and also washed the car and nut-n-bolted it). On the ensuing test drive, on the 4th 60 to 20 mph hard braking try the fronts locked up well before the rears...which is what I wanted. When I came back in the shop, the front rotors were 460f and the rears were 380f.

The rear tires were also at the wear indicators and the fronts still had a tad to go to the indicators, so I swapped them as well putting the better ones on the rear.

I've got a local race tomorrow to test everything out once again before I bolt the new rubber on next week.

SSLance

07-26-2015, 07:57 PM

Today's runs... New brake pads changed the car completely...a LOT better. Now the driver has to learn it's limits once again.

Just watch this car in the slalom on the back straight, it's crazy good...

/hieGHZfDmI4

SSLance

07-28-2015, 05:19 PM

Cool picture from last Sunday, this was on my fastest run of the day on one of the early hard 90 degree turns.

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/img/s8/v74/p1356098401-4.jpg

I had a couple course workers tell me it was lifting the rear tire in that turn but I couldn't tell inside the car, no disruption in grip at all there.

SSLance

07-28-2015, 05:40 PM

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/img/s5/v116/p1356098509-4.jpg (http://www.peterlinphotography.com/2015event9/e50d46bcd)

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/img/s9/v18/p1356098702-4.jpg (http://www.peterlinphotography.com/2015event9/e50d46c8e)

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/img/s5/v124/p1356110409-4.jpg (http://www.peterlinphotography.com/2015event9/e50d49a49)

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/img/s6/v138/p1356110874-4.jpg (http://www.peterlinphotography.com/2015event9/e50d49c1a)

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/img/s2/v4/p1356110910-4.jpg (http://www.peterlinphotography.com/2015event9/e50d49c3e)

Rest of the pics from the event here...

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/2015event9

David does a great job taking these and we all appreciate his posting them up.

87SS

07-29-2015, 05:14 PM

:thumbsup:

Panteracer

07-29-2015, 08:12 PM

Lance looks like you are leaning on
the car really hard getting everything it
will take. Cool shots

Bob

SSLance

07-30-2015, 07:42 AM

Thanks guys...it's been a fun journey for sure, and one that just keeps on going as well.

One thing I notice when looking at pictures of me in the car on track this year...is how different my seating position inside the car is.

Look at this picture from last fall, see how high in the car I am and how hunched forward my shoulders are...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bI7fFZFbmK4/VFV1IIb5CQI/AAAAAAAARQA/cmyT-HA1iZg/w1001-h563-no/p890377884-6.jpg

Now look at how lower and further back I am in this picture.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-kwjDPi06en0/Vbo2nCQVDTI/AAAAAAAAXRs/3wd-yyYvA7w/w960-h439-no/11745485_10204799364604969_8613333875679991775_n.j pg

My shoulders are also more relaxed and my grip on the steering wheel is more with just my fingers instead of a fist full of wheel.

I think this seating improvement is helping with my driving and just one more step in the process of becoming faster on the track.

I still haven't 4 corner weighed the car since all of the interior changes but I'm certain I moved some weight off of the front and possibly lost some overall weight with the addition of the much lighter seats and rollbar.

Ben@SpeedTech

07-31-2015, 08:15 AM

The car looks great, and the video looks like you're plain haulin'. Awesome! :trophy-1302:

Che70velle

07-31-2015, 12:52 PM

Lance I always enjoy watching your videos. Thanks for taking the time to post these up. Car looks more solid with each outing!

silver63c10

07-31-2015, 03:50 PM

Man you are HUSTLIN that thing! Very cool, and inspiring to see both it and you progressing.

Seeing your tire temp sheet led me to put a version of my own together as we move forward with tuning. I attempted to log everything between runs last weekend, but being by myself and dealing with pretty fast turnarounds between runs, I only managed to get the first one put down.

Keep up the good work!

SSLance

08-30-2015, 09:49 AM

Looks like I haven't updated this thread since the CAM East event. While there I learned some more about the setup and more importantly learned some more about how to drive it to get the most out of it.

Been to a local SCCA event as well since then and am getting better, but the driver still needs more practice to get back to being as good as the car currently is. I'm concentrating on finding ways to allow the car to carry as much speed as possible in the turns, different types of turns require different strategies and I'm still figuring all that out. Car is VERY repeatable, very stable, and pretty easy to drive letting the driver concentrate on getting better without having to worry about having to try to save the car all of the time.

I have been having an issue with the cap head screws holding the swing arms onto the centerpiece of my sway bar coming loose. Had this same issue with my old center piece and I solved it by a dab of blue locktite on them. When it came time to swap out the bar though, I liked to have never got them loose. Heat, penetrant, more heat, more penetrant and a large dose of patience let me finally get the bolts loose to do the swap. The problem is the back side of the bracket where the bolts thread into is open allowing moisture to get into the thread and rust them up. So I didn't use locktite when I put it back together this time...and have been tightening them up after every third autocross run or so or day of driving on the street.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c0p3TDy4P8uJDpkP2FYc-A9-MaY-Gj4bpp_QQRZBS_1R=w1378-h775-no

Today I pulled each bolt out, thoroughly cleaned the bolt and threads...then filled the backside of the threaded hole with clear RTV, put a dab of blue locktite on the bolt, then tightened down once again. The excess RTV squeezed out the back side of the bracket which I wiped off. Hopefully the RTV seals the threads from moisture preventing rust and also acts as adhesive to help the dab of blue locktite to hold the bolts tight now.

That and a good bath are my only jobs to do to get the car ready to head to the CAM Invitational and then the SCCA Nationals in Lincoln, NE next weekend. Well, that and try to be a better driver to get the most out of the car while there...

65_LS1_T56

09-01-2015, 09:15 AM

Ben@SpeedTech

09-01-2015, 09:23 AM

Glad to hear you get so much seat time and the car is doing awesome!

SSLance

09-01-2015, 10:00 AM

Hey Lance,
Just a thought on the bolts: not sure what size they are, but what about going to a stud and nut configuration? I'm sure ARP has something that would work. You could put red loctite on the stud then.

If those are button heads, yeah, they suck in general. Usually, they are hard to remove, plus they have a smaller hex socket than a cap screw limiting torque in the first place.

I wanted to get longer cap head bolts and nut the back side of them but clearance between the back of the bracket and the frame is pretty tight already. Didn't think about studs, but that may be the answer if they start to come loose again...I think there is room there on the outside for a nut. Thanks for the idea...

SSLance

09-01-2015, 10:01 AM

Glad to hear you get so much seat time and the car is doing awesome!

Thanks Ben, have you got to try out those new shoes on your ride yet?

Panteracer

09-01-2015, 03:22 PM

Lance,
who's bar is it you have?? Ridetech?
It looks like a Nascar setup
I know Ron told you what to get
Saving my pennies so I can get things
going in the right direction

Cool stuff and great you are running the
hell out of the car.. good luck at the Nationals
Maier and I think his wife are going as she was
running the nasty Stagnero car both days a
few weeks back

Bob

SSLance

09-02-2015, 05:05 AM

Ron Sutton

09-02-2015, 07:13 AM

Yeah Bob, it's a Ridetech Musclebar...but this one is not an off the shelf bar.

Their stock center piece is a 1.5" dia 0.120" wall tube, I ran that for a while, then upgraded to a 0.250" wall tube and now have a 0.375" wall tube center piece on the car.

Each upgrade was substantial and completely changed the way the car handled to the better. I am still not used to how well the car turns in now, it's very Mini Cooper like. :D

Just an FYI Bob, with each step up in front sway bar size (and rate) we increased the rear spring rate to be balanced. The car runs flatter, has more grip & quicker response because of the combination of larger front sway bar & stiffer rate rear springs, to go along with the matching geometry, shock valving, etc.

*I didn't want anyone to think increasing the front sway bar size alone is what works. It's just the part we talk about most.

:cheers:

SSLance

09-02-2015, 07:27 AM

^ Yeah that... :D

Just for reference, these are the rear spring rates I ran with each front bar I've put on the car to maintain the balanced handling:

36mm F-body front sway bar - 165# rear spring
1.5" 0.120" Wall Tube Front Bar - 182# rear spring
1.5" 0.250" Wall Tube Front Bar - 200# rear spring
1.5" 0.375" Wall Tube Front Bar - 250# rear spring

I've had 600# springs on the front ever since I put the coilovers on the car.

The rear sway bar has been the 1" solid lower control arm mounted bar that I've run forever.

I'm certain every car is different and by no means say that if you put these parts on your car, it'll handle like mine...but I've raced this car a lot with each of these setups and they have all worked great for me. They just keep getting better and better as we've upped the size of the front bar (and rear springs to match).

Ron Sutton

09-02-2015, 03:12 PM

Panteracer

09-02-2015, 05:22 PM

Thanks guys
I am a little ways from getting the car
Lightened then I can weigh and measure things
I think a better bar the right size will help
along with the other things. Looks like you
have been fine tuning for a while

Bob

SSLance

09-02-2015, 06:27 PM

We initially thought going with the 0.250" wall tube bar was getting jiggy with it, Ron mentioned to me in passing the other day that an even bigger front bar than what is on the car now would still help it.

It's been a progression for sure, but just to be clear...the car has been neutral balanced ever since stage 1. It just keeps getting faster and faster the flatter we've gotten it to run.

SRD Art

09-03-2015, 10:09 AM

Thanks for sharing! Curious, what do those front bars translate to in # rate?

What are you feeling most with the car as you make changes- faster times, easier to drive, less stress trying to keep the car in control, etc. ...? All of the above?

Right now sway bars are one of my focuses so while the car is down for some repairs and upgrades I'm taking notes. :)

SSLance

09-03-2015, 10:38 AM

Ever since we put Stage 1 of Ron's setup under this car, the car has been friendly to drive. I am not exaggerating...all of the evils the car had previously just went away.

From then on it has just been a matter of fine tuning and tweaking both shock settings and driver ability to get the car to carry maximum speed through the corners...which in turn led to faster times on the clock and higher rankings in the day's results.

Each subsequent upgrade in front bar (and rear springs) just made the car more responsive to steering input and gave it the ability to carry even more speed in all 3 phases of a turn.

We are at a point now with both driver ability and car setup that a single click on a shock or a single pound of air pressure will make a slight change one way or the other...whatever we need to carry just a bit more speed in a specific turn. There are no more large problem areas...it's all just minor tweaking to tune to a specific course...or driver preference.

At CAM East when Ryan was co-driving the car with me, his preference is a "tight" handling car. He likes to lean on the outside front tire the most, feel where it's grip level is at and drive up to that point...while I like more of a "free" feel (probably comes from driving a car that would not turn for so long).

We discussed this beforehand and also discussed where to start on the rear shock settings...knowing what it would be like and how we'd sneak up on tightening the rear rebound hopefully without going too far. We knew it would start off pretty free, and the opposite side would be once we tightened up the rear rebound too much it would start carrying the inside rear tire and upset the car that way. We adjusted 1 click into the rear shocks 1 after my first run, then 1 click after his first run...after his second run he wanted 1 more click and that got the car pretty good everywhere on the course.

By then he was putting laps in almost a second faster than me, in a car he had never driven before, with a setup like he had never driven before. After that, each of his runs were within 1 or 2 tenths of his best time. On his last run he asked me if we could lower the front tire pressures about 4 psi. He had his fast time in the books already and wanted to see if lowering the front pressures would tighten the car up enough for him to carry a bit more speed thru the large 180 at the back. His time was about the same as previous runs, he said it was a tick better in the large 180, but it felt lazier just about everywhere else on the course. On Sunday morning he didn't hesitate...we put the original tire pressures back in the car and we both set pretty fast times on our first runs that day as well.

My point for typing all of that is...I feel that anyone can adapt to driving this type of setup, it really is that easy to drive. You do not fight the car, you just have to coax it into finding the most speed you can with little tweaks here and there...both on the car and from the driver seat. The car has been like that ever since we had the F-body bar on the front...it's just a LOT faster now with the MonsterBar up under there.

SSLance

09-11-2015, 11:44 AM

So an old mechanical issue reared it's ugly head again at the SCCA Nationals. It took me a while to diagnose exactly what it was, it actually started at CAM East month or so ago. I initially thought it was the clutch posi giving up again as it seemed like the car was spinning the inside rear tire on exits from short sharper turns. The more I drove it and the more it happened, I finally figured out the clutch was slipping, not the diff.

If you listen close during these runs, on the exit of some corners you'll hear the RPMs spike up but the car doesn't move nor do the tires spin, that's the clutch slipping.

Mvs9OZX5Kpw

It hurt my times on the big long fast courses at Lincoln so I did not finish well in either event. The car cornered fantastic, much better than I thought it would...it just wouldn't handle down the fast straights. Time to come up with a new game plan. This clutch is a RAM rated at 500 hp I think that is just over a year old...and I'm making no where near that kind of power.

Panteracer

09-11-2015, 01:56 PM

Lance sorry to hear the clutch was heading south on you
Not the best place if there really is one to start slipping

I have used a Centerforce clutch in both cars for many years
Firebird is 750hp at the flywheel but not a lot of time on the
new motor racing...Pantera 600 hp just got a new clutch after 10 years
of beating on the car... now I mostly track the car but smoked
it a few years back at a drag race thing we Pantera guys did
and it still lasted a couple of more years.. I am sold on them

I know most use double disc fancy this and that but the tried
and true seem to work for me.. my 2 cents

Bob

SSLance

09-18-2015, 05:38 AM

While I haven't had time to touch the car since coming home from Nationals, Dave Nutting has been busy working with it...as seen here.

http://bangshift.com/bangshiftapex/apex-feature-barney-the-big-purple-corner-carving-g-body/

Thanks for the pics and article Dave, you did a great job shining up this turd!

Ben@SpeedTech

09-18-2015, 07:36 AM

Awesome! Congrats to you and Barney! :thumbsup:

Nice write up by Dave too. :)

87SS

09-18-2015, 06:29 PM

GO Barney GO ! I wish I could get a ride in the SS.:flag2:

SSLance

09-27-2015, 04:44 PM

Little test session at a local autocross today. The best examples of the clutch slipping are at 40 and 49 seconds...

K48L5UG0lRs

Rear sway bar was disconnected on the driver side and the rear shock rebound was at -7 clicks from full stiff. It still lifted the driver side rear tire twice that I saw which made the pass side rear tire shudder. Still very driveable though, not edgy at all. Not sure what corner exit grip would have been like because every time I was hard on the gas corner exit it would slip the clutch. Rear rolled over a bit more than normal with the rear bar disconnected but really wasn't even that noticeable. I got used to it very quickly.

This issues I have had in the past with loss of grip on corner exit were not evident today with the sway bar disconnected. It would be interesting to see how it would do while really putting the power down on corner exit.

ScottieB

12-10-2015, 08:29 AM

I saw you southbound on 169 yesterday. Car looks exceptionally cool driving down the road!

SSLance

12-10-2015, 09:14 AM

Thanks! I wasn't speeding was I? :whistling: :angel: :drive:

I was actually on my way (or driving around with) another Lat-G member Mike http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/member.php4?u=23183 who I met up and hung out with for a while yesterday.

Turns out yet another online friend met in person is NOT an internet ax murderer...my 100% streak is still intact. :D

ScottieB

12-10-2015, 09:44 AM

I sold my LS4 Fiero last week and although I love my replacement, I don't think it will be a racer. SRT Challenger

SSLance

12-10-2015, 10:32 AM

Why not? I got beat by a late model Challenger in Lincoln last Sept. Nice cars...

I think I'll back out for a drive this afternoon, dang it's nice here this week.

Che70velle

12-10-2015, 01:26 PM

Lance, did you get the clutch issues figured out? I see your looking for cylinder heads also...what's up?

SSLance

12-10-2015, 02:06 PM

Haven't fixed the clutch yet, it's still slipping if pushed hard. Since the trans has to come out to fix it, I'm contemplating pulling the engine as well and finally cracking the seal on the crate engine. I'm going to lean more toward track days and road course time trials next season instead of autocross, so I can forgo getting the latest fastest trick tires and rear suspension upgrades and concentrate more on going faster in a straight line.

I currently run this crate engine:
http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/small-block-ht-383.html
http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/Chevrolet/northamerica/usa/nscwebsite/en/Home/Vehicles/Performance/Engine_Detail/Small_Block/HT383/dyno-chart-ht383-482x244.jpg

If I bolt on some aluminum Fastburn heads and this cam, it will magically become this crate engine:
http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/sp383.html

http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/Chevrolet/northamerica/usa/nscwebsite/en/Home/Vehicles/Performance/Engine_Detail/Small_Block/SP383_425/01_images/dyno-chart-sp383-425-482x244.jpg

Should be a real nice upgrade in upper RPM horsepower while remaining very street-able and reliable.

Might also throw a road race style pan on it while it's out.

ScottieB

12-11-2015, 09:33 AM

Why not? I got beat by a late model Challenger in Lincoln last Sept. Nice cars...

I think I'll back out for a drive this afternoon, dang it's nice here this week.

I didn't realize these heavy things could handle. Thanks for the info. Now to search for some recommendations.

SSLance

12-26-2015, 04:16 PM

So a new phase of upgrades has officially started. I finally decided to crack the seal on the crate engine and upgrade the heads and cam in an effort to keep up with the LS powered cars I race against on the straights. I plan on doing more road course events from now on and less autoocross so this was a necessary upgrade and actually makes more sense than upgrading the rear suspension, wheels and tires just to try to keep up with all of the autocross specific CAM cars coming out of the woodwork.

I picked up the top end from a blown up 604 crate engine from a local racer, a set of worked over fastburn heads, 1.5 roller rockers, the 604 cam and a single plane intake. I had our local speed shop do a valve job on the heads since a few of the valves had been hit, ended up replacing three of them, all of the springs were checked and all of the valves were lapped in again.

I'm going to custom order a cam Monday to meet my needs and will reuse my dual plane intake, Q-jet, and MSD and just about everything else. Only thing I'm really swapping out is the heads and cam...but those alone should bump me about 100 hp in all the right spots with only giving up just a scant bit of torque way down low (built in traction control).

So we started today by pulling the transmission and then the engine. Only took about 2 hours to get the trans out, then we inspected the clutch a bit...took some time to loosen up a few things underside...then lowered the car to start under the hood.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151212_zpsrjtjozju.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151212_zpsrjtjozju.jpg.html)

The flywheel side wasn't too bad

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151409b_zpst3v8crri.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151409b_zpst3v8crri.jpg.html)

The pressure plate side was toast though

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151410_zpskafwjsgy.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151410_zpskafwjsgy.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151410b_zpst5seje8k.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151410b_zpst5seje8k.jpg.html)

The flywheel surface is okay, the pressure plate surface has some small ridges in and burn spots on it...so it looks like a whole clutch kit is in order.

This was taken when we stopped for lunch.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151211_zpskwhqmxrb.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151211_zpskwhqmxrb.jpg.html)

About an hour later...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151408_zpszwuiglpd.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151408_zpszwuiglpd.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151407_zpsudyfnxvi.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151407_zpsudyfnxvi.jpg.html)

These plugs have been in this engine since my "electric fan upgrade" 5 years ago now. Interesting to look at them and the corresponding header ports.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151408a_zpsof2iyjmi.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151408a_zpsof2iyjmi.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151408b_zpsppqovbgz.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151408b_zpsppqovbgz.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151408c_zpsuzincmpv.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151408c_zpsuzincmpv.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151408d_zpsq6rritj5.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151408d_zpsq6rritj5.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151409_zpsztywxwz7.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151409_zpsztywxwz7.jpg.html)

SSLance

12-26-2015, 04:17 PM

In the next day or so I'll start to tear this apart...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151458_zpsfkjy5kaj.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1226151458_zpsfkjy5kaj.jpg.html)

and get ready to put these heads to good use.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/1215151650_zpsug00kxe0.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/1215151650_zpsug00kxe0.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/1212151540a_zpswlxbqq8b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/1212151540a_zpswlxbqq8b.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/1212151540_zpsbav4n7ul.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/1212151540_zpsbav4n7ul.jpg.html)

Purple and yellow is my current engine, Dark blue and Green is what we are shooting for power wise and lite blue and red are a stock LS2 like I'll be racing against.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/Dyno%20Simulation_zpsszoomcdi.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/Dyno%20Simulation_zpsszoomcdi.jpg.html)

glassman

12-26-2015, 04:30 PM

Nice Lance. About what i just did to the Camaro, pending wiring its ready to fire.

I thought you were running an LS for some reason.

Anyways, looking good, hope to see ya out there one of these daze...

SSLance

12-26-2015, 04:41 PM

Thanks, I would love to get to an event with all of my left coast friends someday...maybe some day we'll meet in the middle or something (like Pikes Peak maybe? :D )

I'm one of the old SBC stalwarts hanging tough... Hopefully this upgrade gets me back into the ballpark with them LS boys anyway. The old truck engine has served me well for a long time, it put up with a ton of abuse over the years and kept on kicking...

Che70velle

12-26-2015, 05:17 PM

Lance as much racing as you do, and the rpm's that you will constantly see on a road course, I'd recommend a scatter shield, or a steel bellhousing.
Lol on the "stock" LS2 I'm racing against comment. Who in their right mind, would leave their LS2 "stock"? I'm being sarcastic, of course.
Is your current camshaft a roller? Is not, then you'll want to change the gear on your distributer out. It will make a mess inside the engine before you know it.
I love following your thread...it's one of the more practical builds around here, not that the fancy high dollar builds aren't cool...

SSLance

12-26-2015, 05:23 PM

This engine came with a roller cam and a roller is going back in. The dist gear has been changed already. You are the second person that mentioned a scattershield to me lately. I was always under the impression that was more of a drag race thing. I still don't plan on turning this thing over 6,000 RPM...I just plan on getting to 6,000 RPM faster is all. :D

silver63c10

12-27-2015, 12:33 PM

SBC for life! Cool upgrades, should really wake it up. Any particular reason you're looking at more road course stuff now?

Also, on the issue of a scattershield, I will throw in a big time recommendation for picking one up as well. We exploded a clutch in ours at the drag strip, but it was when it was turning around 6-6,500 rpm just like it does multiple times per run on the autocross course. Lakewood saved my feet for sure - this was so violent we couldn't square the transmission afterward.

http://www.acmeautopartsonline.com/camaro/images/IMG_5349a.jpg

SSLance

12-27-2015, 02:47 PM

SBC for life! Cool upgrades, should really wake it up. Any particular reason you're looking at more road course stuff now?

Thanks! I think so too.

I just enjoy the seat time one gets with a track day more than the (4) 60 second runs during a full day at an autocross. Also it was going to take some major rear suspension upgrades along with new wheels and tires to get back to being competitive in Solo and I don't really need to make those changes to enjoy myself greatly on road courses. It just makes more sense for me at this time.

I'll still hit up local solo events and maybe some CAM events if the timing works out...but I'm not going to bust my budget trying to be competitive at them. This is purely a selfish move for Lance. :D I'm never happier than I am when driving my car on a road course...

SSLance

12-29-2015, 12:47 PM

What better way to spend one's birthday...than wrenching out in the shop?

Disassembly just about complete...need to run up to O'Reillys and grab a balancer puller to finish up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151143_zpsfnqrhkqf.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151143_zpsfnqrhkqf.jpg.html)

Everything looks good to me so far. Was surprised the pistons weren't further in the deck considering what everyone has said about these.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151144_zpsteci8dlq.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151144_zpsteci8dlq.jpg.html)

Oh yeah, iron heads weight 48.5# each, Aluminum Fastburns are 22.5# each. 52# savings... Woot!

SSLance

12-29-2015, 12:48 PM

Cam is out...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151412_zpsvdt7qrit.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151412_zpsvdt7qrit.jpg.html)

Overall very pleased with what I found.

This is how far the piston is in the deck.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151411_zpsppi3mvif.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151411_zpsppi3mvif.jpg.html)

I never have figured out how to read this damn manual caliper... lol... One of these days I'll get me a digital set that tells me what I'm seeing. :D

Rods chamfered to clear pan rail

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151420_zpsxzfnncke.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151420_zpsxzfnncke.jpg.html)

Just a couple of cylinder show just the slightest scuffing, this is the worst I saw.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151423_zpsbw6trmsy.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151423_zpsbw6trmsy.jpg.html)

Most cylinders still have the honing cross hatch visible, no wear edge at the top of the cylinders at all.

Freaking timing cover is plastic and has stamped on it "replace assembly if removed"... I hate the timing mark on it anyway...maybe an aftermarket one is in my future to go with my Canton pan?

GregWeld

12-29-2015, 01:07 PM

Motors really can't be "visually" inspected.... What may appear to be little evidence of wear can be measured in .001".... Bores can be tapered or out of round... guides can be too loose or too tight... Ditto that on bearings and clearances.

The fact that there is no visual "damage" is a good thing....

The weak links will be the cast pistons - the powered metal rods... and the overall "factory" clearances. That motor probably came with a forged crank... a good thing. I always love the guys that tell me their motor is "blue printed" - as if though that is some speed secret... when, in fact, it means nothing more than someone has bothered to measure every spec and make sure that it is actually within spec.

Now you have to ask yourself if you want to push the RPM level.... which - if any - parts need to be improved upon. Maybe none, if you don't want to spin it more than 6,000 RPM's.

I personally short shift the motor in the Mustang - and it has nothing but the best of the best internals... but I figure nobody is paying me to "win" so what difference does it make if I shift at 6,500 vs 7,000....

SSLance

12-29-2015, 01:20 PM

I think the same way Greg...only I shift at 5500 instead of 6000 RPM. :D

Main thing I was happy to see is no scoring of the cylinder walls, no sign of oil consumption, bottom of the oil pan very clean, everything very clean really. Only sign it has even been run is the little bit of carbon buildup on tops of the pistons.

GregWeld

12-29-2015, 05:50 PM

I'm shocked you're not running a scatter shield.... We abuse the clutches and when they explode - it's a violent matter. It's not just a drag race thing - it's a race thing... but more importantly - like a helmet... it's a safety thing. I like my feet just the way they are.

SSLance

12-30-2015, 02:51 PM

WhileImatititis...

I spent most of yesterday afternoon contemplating taking it the rest of the way down, checking the bearings, and even hot tanking the block and putting new freeze plugs and cam bearings in it. This way I could clean up all of the oil drain edges, drill holes in plugs, those types of things while at the same time being absolutely certain everything is fresh too. Wouldn't take much more to do it all now vs starting from scratch at a later point.

I think I've changed my mind 3 or 4 times already today as wekk on what to do... I think I'll pull a couple rod caps off and have a look see at the bearings...then decide from there. Local speed\engine shop is slow and offered me a heckuva deal on a full refresh, balance, blueprint, line hone, deck, complete reassembly...the works. And could still have it ready by this weekend if needed (it's not).

Hard to not completely refresh the thing with it all the way down this far but at the same time, this bottom end only has 15,000 easy Sunday drive miles on it now.

If any significant wear shows on any of the bearings, I probably will do it. If the bearings still look brand new...I'll probably just button it back up and call it good.

GregWeld

12-30-2015, 03:17 PM

At least you have a plan.... or an idea of a plan... or are thinking about a plan!! LOL

I know that for me - it's hard to take a "perfectly good running" motor and have it refreshed. But I also know (been there) what happens when you spin a bearing - or window a block etc because we were too lazy to pull things out and check 'em.

We all run this stuff pretty hard - and we EXPECT them to perform flawlessly run after run. Now that you're stepping up to do more road course action... I think you're doing the right thing. Doesn't mean nothing will happen down the road - or even 15 seconds into your second lap... but at least you know you gave it a good once over.

65_LS1_T56

12-31-2015, 09:37 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151411_zpsppi3mvif.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/1229151411_zpsppi3mvif.jpg.html)

I never have figured out how to read this damn manual caliper... lol... One of these days I'll get me a digital set that tells me what I'm seeing. :D

It's .039" or about 1mm. Those are both metric (top scale) and inch.
You read the inboard scale (1:1), each mark is 0.025", then you add what the outboard scale reads (the numbers that line up the closest, 0.014 in your case). So it would be 0.025+0.014=0.039" Even easier, look at the metric scale, it's right at 1mm (or 0.039" :) )

SSLance

12-31-2015, 09:51 AM

65_LS1_T56

12-31-2015, 12:54 PM

I follow everything you say but this Aaron.

"then you add what the outboard scale reads (the numbers that line up the closest, 0.014 in your case)"

Are you just guessing the 0.014 because the line is halfway between the marks?

If you look at the lowest scale (0-25), the "14" tick mark looks like it lines up the closest to the full (1:1) scale lines. Doesn't matter what line on the 1:1, you read the thousandths column (lowest scale, 0-25).

Of course, in person, another line may line up closer, but from the picture it looks like the "14" tick mark.

*Remember: I tell my guys here at work "never trust calipers as far as you can throw them" lol, I can really wing a caliper, ask me...they are a reference tool only. To get a more accurate number, a quality depth micrometer would be best for that check.

SSLance

01-02-2016, 09:44 AM

Rods, rod caps, and main caps are all marked with identifying marks (which have been recorded physically and photo documented.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0102160934_zpsh25ky3xp.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0102160934_zpsh25ky3xp.jpg.html)

Pulled #1 and #2 piston

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0102160959_zpseberln2o.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0102160959_zpseberln2o.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0102161000_zpscw9kdruw.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0102161000_zpscw9kdruw.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0102161000b_zps5njcdbov.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0102161000b_zps5njcdbov.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0102161035_zps454qru6r.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0102161035_zps454qru6r.jpg.html)

Saw a bit more wear than I am comfortable putting back together...

I imagine that it would be okay...but considering the horsepower upgrade I'm adding and the abuse I'll be putting it through soon...I've decided to refresh it all. It's on the hook now waiting for the shop to let me know when I can bring it up.

GregWeld

01-02-2016, 10:43 AM

Yeah -- Those bearings have lost their coating - next up - failure!

Good thinking on having it gone thru.

SSLance

01-02-2016, 11:31 AM

Yup yup...

Shop will hone with torque plates, align hone the mains, balance the crank assembly and everything else and deck the block along with file fit new rings and install new bearings.

Probably even strap it to the dyno to break it back in, get some heat cycles in it, set the valve lash hot, and retorque everything so its run ready once I drop it back in the car. Wasn't the original plan but you have to play with the cards dealt to you...

fleet

01-02-2016, 01:01 PM

You continue to do a great job showing us the details Lance. :thumbsup:

SSLance

01-02-2016, 08:41 PM

Thanks... Mostly it's just me sharing my pain with those that I know can commiserate. :D

Vegas69

01-02-2016, 09:40 PM

The only engines I've ever torn down that didn't need rebuilt were factory engines. Those bearings are toast. They have had debris through them. I'd consider blocking off your bypass.

SSLance

01-03-2016, 06:27 AM

GregWeld

01-03-2016, 07:35 AM

The builder asked me if I'd ever ran a Fram filter on it because of their bypass. I can't remember what I ran on it in the beginning, for the last 5 years or so it's always had a Wix Gold on it.

My uneducated guess might lean more toward an oil starvation issue than debris but who knows. The engine came with a 4 quart pan on it which I always overfilled to 5 quarts and I have abused it on hard corners for 4 seasons now.

Either way, I'm glad common sense kicked in and I took a look. Now I just have to figure out a way to pay for it... :D

That's always the "pay me now.... or pay me later" question when doing this stuff. Put off what you know you should do now... and pay more for it later. Either way - it doesn't ease the wallet pain.

I read these threads - and read where the guy is saving up to buy some nasty big bad motor and tranny - and I think to myself.... "wow".... I sure hope it's a good one right off the bat! Because, sadly, sometimes they're not. The Oddo motor in the Mustang was a reminder of that. Three track events - three "re-dos".

Now is the time to change that pan if it's still the stock one. Get a larger sump but more importantly get one with road race baffling. I had to do that on the Lotus - the minute I stuck the sticky Yokohama slicks on it.... G loading jumped up to 2 G's..... and that'll have the oil climbing the sidewalls in a hurry.

Mizzouri

01-03-2016, 07:55 AM

Lance, call me when you get the engine all buttoned up. I'd like to see what I am up against for next season! :idea:

What machine shop are you using for the refresh?

SSLance

01-03-2016, 08:39 AM

Greg, a 7 quart Canton 15-250T with appropriate pickup is already on the way to me (right Ron Sutton? :D )...this was ordered before I even started to disassemble the engine. https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/product/15-250T/15-250T----SBC-G-BODY-RR-PAN-1-PIECE-SEAL/

Probably also looking at an oil pump upgrade, don't need to get crazy here with a HV pump but an upgrade to a Melling 10552 seems like a prudent choice.

The idea is to do everything I can to help keep this engine alive given the abuse I plan on putting it through. A combination of parts and labor that all work well together without completely blowing the budget out of the water or compromising reliability.

Patrick, it's up at Yancy's here in town.

SSLance

01-05-2016, 05:44 AM

One issue that I knew I was going to have to deal with when changing to the fastburn heads was header fitment. It wasn't until yesterday when my fastburn specific header gaskets finally got here that I was able to determine exactly what I was going to have to change to use my headers with these heads.

The fastburn exhaust ports are raised approx 3/16"s vs regular SBC heads while the bolt holes appear to be in the same spot. This header gasket fits the exhaust port on the heads perfectly. Here it is up against my 1 5/8" header flange with the bolt holes lined up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0104161107_zpsckrzsxrw.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0104161107_zpsckrzsxrw.jpg.html)

You can see how the top of the gasket is covering about 1/8-3/16" of the exhaust port. If the header was just bolted to the heads like this it would not only most likely leak like a siv but also kill the exhaust port flow.

Here is the header gasket lined up with the header tube openings.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0104161108_zpsaayifjxo.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0104161108_zpsaayifjxo.jpg.html)

The header openings are large enough to cover the exhaust ports but the holes are going to have to be slotted to move the header up on the head. I have commissioned John to this task as I'm certain that I'd bugger it all up. :D

Opening the holes up shouldn't be that big of a deal but we want to fill in at least a couple of the holes on each side to give the header bolts something to sit against to keep them from sliding back down during or after install.

Since these are mid-length headers, raising the headers shouldn't cause me any other fitment issues on the car. If they were full long tubes I might be concerned about floor clearance or something like that but I don't think there will be any other issues.

The engine builder called yesterday, said the middle rod bearings were real bad...like ready to spin bad.

He also asked "Are you going to run the manual trans flywheel you dropped off?" I replied "well yeah" He said..."because I thought Monte Carlos only came with automatics..."

:D

SSLance

01-13-2016, 04:59 AM

There has been progress... :D

Not many pictures but I did get to visit my engine at the shop yesterday while delivering the rest of the parts for assembly. The machine work on the block is finished and the rotating assembly is installed. I dropped the cam and rest of the parts off and in the next day or so they'll finish up reassembly and prepare the engine for a dyno session.

One side of the block had a bad taper to the deck so he decked both sides to square it up, pistons now sit .0015 in the hole. The crank was 30 grams out of balance and that was cleaned up as well as a fresh plate hone and new rings and bearings installed.

This showed up the other day which hopefully along with a new oil pump will help with any future oil starvation issues.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0108161809_zpsvti4xehw.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0108161809_zpsvti4xehw.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0108161809b_zpsgedirfyz.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0108161809b_zpsgedirfyz.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0108161809a_zpsiws80rbr.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0108161809a_zpsiws80rbr.jpg.html)

More to come hopefully very soon!

SSLance

01-14-2016, 11:07 AM

Dyno day tomorrow...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0114161134_zpsrqfopsk6.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0114161134_zpsrqfopsk6.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0114161134a_zpsntp2zidb.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0114161134a_zpsntp2zidb.jpg.html)

Still working on a few small issues, like the headers. We'll run the shop headers if I don't get mine ready but there is still a chance. Also want to change up the valve covers a bit now that I have heads that will take a perimeter bolt set. Again, this won't stop us from running it on the dyno.

Woo Hoo!!

6camaro9

01-14-2016, 12:10 PM

GregWeld

01-14-2016, 03:06 PM

It's just almost as good as having sex.

Vegas69

01-14-2016, 06:22 PM

Not even close, do I need to start a new thread? ha

WSSix

01-14-2016, 06:28 PM

SSLance

01-14-2016, 07:56 PM

Lance I noticed in an earlier post you had the open plenum intake pictured with the new heads and cam. I see that you will be testing with what appears to be a duel plenum intake. Is there a reason for this? I have the ZZ383 that has the open plenum intake and I have been wondering how this would affect my low end torque. I have not had the opportunity to fire up my motor. Once you have the headers will you please post a picture of the work you had done. I will have to do the same thing to mine and I would like to see how yours turns out. Thank you. Car looks great and good luck with all the work.

The single plane intake in the picture came with the heads I bought, I've already sold it. The dual plane makes more torque down low and the single plane makes more hp up in the higher RPMs, I wanted the more power down low, plus the single plane was cut for a 4150 style carb and I wanted to retain my Quadrajet which fits on my dual plane intake.

I picked up the headers tonight so we'll get to use them for the dyno pulls tomorrow. I'll try to get some pics of them before, if not for sure after once I get the engine back home again. I think how my friend cut the slots in the holes is gonna work out pretty slick.

SSLance

01-14-2016, 08:00 PM

It's just almost as good as having sex.

Uh... I think that mountain air is starting to have an effect on you Greg!!! :peepwall:

Although, with the way I've been running around the house all giddy and what not the past few days...my wife might agree with you. :D

SSLance

01-14-2016, 08:03 PM

Man I didn't know you were having to tear the whole engine down for a rebuild. Glad to see it's almost back together though. I'm anxious to see what you end up making on the dyno. I'm envious. I need to get my engine built already, lol.

It all happened pretty quickly...heck I only pulled it out of the car on 12/26. If all goes well I might have it back at the house tomorrow evening.

Ordered the clutch this morning, that should be the last big thing before it's ready to go back together.

Panteracer

01-14-2016, 08:30 PM

GregWeld

01-14-2016, 08:36 PM

Uh... I think that mountain air is starting to have an effect on you Greg!!! :peepwall:

Although, with the way I've been running around the house all giddy and what not the past few days...my wife might agree with you. :D

My wife seems to always encourage me to buy some new car parts or have a motor rebuilt.... I'm sensing there might be something more to this than just casual encouragement.... LOL

SSLance

01-15-2016, 05:27 AM

Lance good to hear you are almost
done with the engine. I remember talking
to my engine builder about having a tall single
plane in my Pantera. I told him everyone had them
because they look cool. He said do you want it to look
cool or pull out of the corner. That ended the conversation

Happy Dyno Day

Bob

Thanks Bob,

I had a similar conversation with my builder about the cam we chose. He said it won't sound like it has much of a cam at idle, I said I don't care what it sounds like at idle.

He replied that he just didn't want me to be disappointed and that races weren't won at idle... :D

HeadInTheClouds

01-15-2016, 09:45 AM

I usually read resto threads in my downtime because I love to see old cars with new tech installed. Mainly because I want to do one, instead of tearing into my 02 ws6. This was a good read though. Seeing changes made with videos. Don't see many 80's Monte Carlo's around. Looks great ! Thanks for sharing! Looking forward to seeing some new stuff with the new engine.

Makes me miss living in Missouri. There is so much more available to do( car oriented )than in the middle of nowhere Montana.

SSLance

01-15-2016, 11:00 AM

Wow... Not very many people admit that they miss living in Missouri! lol... Thanks for the kind words, the car is a labor of love for me. Mostly labor, little bit of love thrown in.

Engine is bolted to the dyno, I just finished bolting the headers to it. The builder had a few other things to get done so I ran home to grab some lunch and check my emails (work ya know). Will go back up when he calls that he is ready.

SSLance

01-15-2016, 06:20 PM

I think everyone that knew I would be dynoing my engine asked me "What do you think it will make?" There is always a lot of talk and banter about the "number" one gets after dyno session. I've maintained all along that I wasn't really worried about the "number", I just wanted a lot more top end power than I had before and the engine to be just as reliable and street friendly as it was in it's former form.

My builder got a late start today and had a few other things going, so we didn't get going with the pulls until after 4 pm today. We talked about holding off until tomorrow and starting over but the weather is going to turn bad and there is a small football game I'm fairly invested in starting at 3 pm tomorrow, so I talked him into just making a few pulls with it tonight, then loading it up and taking it home. It is now sitting on my shop floor...

The engine fired right up, no issues, Yancy adjusted the idle air screws just a bit and broke the engine in before I got there. Once we decided to make the pulls tonight, it fired right back up again and he put the hammer to it once warm.
9ekhh-Vr9pQ

After looking at the sheet, I was pleased...really pleased. We talked about a few things, discussed some options, the put my air cleaner spacer and air cleaner on it and made another pull.

It really REALLY liked the air cleaner. Yancy said it is most likely due to the spacer and filter smoothing out the airflow before it got to the air horn. It was a bit fat on the top end on the first pull and that evened right out on the second pull with the air cleaner in place. I should also add that this was done with my 1 5/8s mid length headers installed and about 3' of my exhaust head pipe attached to them.

XaUdKaLlZpQ

I could post the peak "number" it hit, but that really wouldn't tell the story. What really pleases me about the engine is the torque curve down low AND the peak HP number up top. I'm also very happy that the engine idles smooth as silk at 825 RPM and the air fuel ratios look good across the board. The engine is ready to drop back in Barney and rock, nothing else needed.

Maybe I should do a poll... :D Everyone here knows what we put into the engine, what do you think it did?

My only disappointment is in our hurry to make the pulls, Yancy forgot to clear the screen that shows the torque and HP curves...so that screen showed the last 50 dyno sessions he's done along with mine, so it was unreadable.

GregWeld

01-15-2016, 08:10 PM

It made 425 HP and 505 Torque..... with pulls ending at 6000 rpm??

SSLance

01-16-2016, 05:06 AM

Because the heads were bought used, we really didn't know how they were going to flow. Apparently the work that Brzezinski did on them for the previous owner made the heads much more efficient than we planned on. My friend that helped with the cam selection was disappointed that we undershot the peak RPM, the engine made peak HP at 5400 RPM and peak TQ at 4100 RPM. I'm alright with this though as this helped the torque curve down lower which I was more concerned about than the peak hp number. It still pulls on through 6000 RPM only dropping about 20 hp from peak.

To me, this is why we put it on the dyno. Not to see what the peak number was but to see the curves and where the peaks were (and mostly just to break it in and make sure there were no issues). Every dyno is different and especially when corrected for conditions...who knows what the real number is. On a different dyno on a different day, I'm sure the numbers could be 30 or 40 off of this in either direction. For this dyno...and the conditions present at the time, this is what it made.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/Engine%20Dyno%203%20with%20air%20cleaner_zps59czf0 uf.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/Engine%20Dyno%203%20with%20air%20cleaner_zps59czf0 uf.jpg.html)

524 ft lb at 4100 RPM and 467 HP at 5400 RPM.

That was the last pull with the air cleaner and spacer on. It was about 5 hp higher throughout than the 2nd pull (first with air cleaner on).

Here is the first pull without the air cleaner on.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/Engine%201%20no%20air%20cleaner_zpsrasacqpu.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/Engine%201%20no%20air%20cleaner_zpsrasacqpu.jpg.ht ml)

As you can see it made 50 ft lbs and 22 HP more at peak with the air cleaner and spacer installed!!

I am VERY happy with the results...ecstatic even. I can't wait to see what the butt dyno feels like. I'm slightly concerned that I may now have a more serious traction issue. :D

SSLance

01-16-2016, 06:06 AM

Here's the graph for a bit easier viewing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/HP%20TQ%20chart_zpsjajm9ws3.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/HP%20TQ%20chart_zpsjajm9ws3.jpg.html)

It should motivate out of the corners very nicely me thinks...

WSSix

01-16-2016, 06:23 AM

I came here just to see this. Congrats, Lance! Those are good numbers and curves. Will you ever switch to bigger headers?

SSLance

01-16-2016, 06:30 AM

Thanks...

Not if I can help it. I pretty much hate headers on a street car anyway and these are about as street car friendly of a header that I have ever seen. I told the builder before the dyno session that I'd give up 20 hp just to not have to deal with long tube headers... He looked at me like I was crazy... :D

He said most everyone that comes in his shop is looking for every little bit of power they can get regardless... I guess I'm just different. That shouldn't be news to anyone here though. ;)

Vegas69

01-16-2016, 06:48 AM

That will work, nice numbers. Do you have the air to fuel ratios for the pulls with and without the air cleaner? The air cleaner must have dialed in the jetting.

SSLance

01-16-2016, 07:30 AM

He couldn't find his O2 sensor as he almost never uses it. As he explained to me the dyno calculates the ratio based on the fuel that goes in and the air that comes out of the engine. That is the far right column on the two sheets.

He said that 0.500 is right at 12:1, when the number gets down into the 0.4xxs it is leaning out a bit and making more power...up into the high 0.5xxs to the 0.6xxs is getting richer.

On the pull without the air cleaner, at 5400 (peak HP) it was 0.590 and the pull with the air cleaner it was 0.539.

The fuel lb/hr column shows it using 189.9 without the AC and 181.4 with the AC, so it was using less fuel to make more power by running leaner with the air cleaner and spacer. In other words the AC and spacer let more air get into the engine faster and smoother.

At 4100 (peak torque) it was 0.497 without the AC and 0.475 with the AC, fuel consumption was 134.9 and 143.0 respectively.

So it was using more fuel and running leaner at 4100 RPM with the AC and making 48 more ft lbs of torque.

BTW, this was all done with the distributor locked down at 32 degrees timing, no advance, no curve, no nothing...just 32 degrees timing and burning 91 octane pump gas.

I have an A\F meter in the car and will verify that it's still safe once all back together and on the road, but I'm certain that it will be fine even if I stumble on a bad tank of gas somewhere along the line.

Che70velle

01-16-2016, 08:29 AM

Lance, are you running an ignition box to alter timing? Nice numbers!
You might need bigger rear tires...
Great job getting us detailed information, as usual!

SSLance

01-16-2016, 08:45 AM

Thanks Scott... Any updates on the Chevelle?

I have a MSD 6530 in the car which lets me adjust the timing to whatever I want to, the distributor is locked out, timing is set at 32 degrees and distributor locked down. I'll be able to pull timing out if necessary once back in the car.

For dyno purposes it was just flat base timing. Builder says these heads are just so efficient there is no need to chase any more power by adding timing too them, you just open yourself up to trouble if anything goes wrong (bad gas for example). He said there really isn't any reason to back any timing out at low RPMs either, maybe just a start retard that helps with starting but as you can hear in the video, it cranks over and starts real easy while hot with 32 degrees timing. Keep it simple stupid method in play here...

GregWeld

01-16-2016, 08:58 AM

It made 425 HP and 505 Torque..... with pulls ending at 6000 rpm??

I wasn't too far off!!! And even closer if you look at the HP numbers at 6000 RPM's.

I like your numbers even better though!! That motor will be sweet. Glad this is working out so well for you Lance.

Sieg

01-16-2016, 09:27 AM

Nice Lance!!!!

You're going to need to bump your tire budget this season buddy. :)

6camaro9

01-16-2016, 02:37 PM

Those are some nice numbers Lance. I have been strongly considering putting my dual plane intake on the ZZ383 I bought and seeing your dyno numbers just convinced me. Enjoy the new motor.

Vegas69

01-16-2016, 03:22 PM

I wasn't too far off!!! And even closer if you look at the HP numbers at 6000 RPM's.

I like your numbers even better though!! That motor will be sweet. Glad this is working out so well for you Lance.

Close enough for nuclear war. :mock:

I had a feeling it leaned out more with the cleaner on to make the power. Lucky it didn't work out the opposite and not test it until you installed it in the car.

Rick Dorion

01-16-2016, 04:09 PM

Thanks for all the posting of your journey. This is a real enjoyable reading!

SSLance

01-16-2016, 08:53 PM

Those are some nice numbers Lance. I have been strongly considering putting my dual plane intake on the ZZ383 I bought and seeing your dyno numbers just convinced me. Enjoy the new motor.

Thanks... For anything other than just flat out drag racing or circle track racing, I couldn't see using the single plane intake. We did gasket match port my intake before installing and it took quite a bit of work...but the results speak for themselves.

SSLance

01-16-2016, 08:57 PM

I like your numbers even better though!! That motor will be sweet. Glad this is working out so well for you Lance.

Thanks Greg...I'm pretty stoked to get it back into the car, it should be a fun little beast.

After the Chiefs lost their football game tonight I played a couple of videos of me racing on the big screen for some friends that had never seen them before. All I could think about while watching other cars walking away from me on the straights at NCM was... "Not next year..." :D

SSLance

01-16-2016, 09:01 PM

I had a feeling it leaned out more with the cleaner on to make the power. Lucky it didn't work out the opposite and not test it until you installed it in the car.

I remember watching a Harley on a mobile dyno many years ago up at the local Harley plant during a show. They ran the bike with no air cleaner, then put a K&N setup on it and it made considerably more power with the filter on.

That was the first time I really started to understand airflow and power. Was kind of surprised to see this much change with my air cleaner on, but we backed it up with another pull and it was plain as day different.

You are right, I'm glad we tested it. Just imagine if we had leaned out the secondaries to max power with it off, then ran it with it on... :badidea:

SSLance

01-16-2016, 09:04 PM

Nice Lance!!!!

You're going to need to bump your tire budget this season buddy. :)

Thanks Sieg!

I've got 3 sets of half used Falkens that are gonna have to get me through a track day weekend each this season. Then we'll see how many pennies I've saved back up. This little experiment took a bit more of a bite out of my budget than I was planning on.

SSLance

01-16-2016, 09:08 PM

Thanks for all the posting of your journey. This is a real enjoyable reading!

Thank you for following along. I enjoy sharing, both to learn from others and to hopefully help someone else out along the way as well.

71RS/SS396

01-17-2016, 06:06 AM

I remember watching a Harley on a mobile dyno many years ago up at the local Harley plant during a show. They ran the bike with no air cleaner, then put a K&N setup on it and it made considerably more power with the filter on.

That was the first time I really started to understand airflow and power. Was kind of surprised to see this much change with my air cleaner on, but we backed it up with another pull and it was plain as day different.

You are right, I'm glad we tested it. Just imagine if we had leaned out the secondaries to max power with it off, then ran it with it on... :badidea:

Depending on how close the air filter is to hood, things could change again. I've seen cars on a chassis roll lose as much as 30 hp with the hood closed vs open when the filter is too close to the hood.

SSLance

01-17-2016, 06:22 AM

That's an interesting thought that I hadn't considered, but after seeing how much just the housing affected the airflow, I'm curious now. If I ever get the car on a chassis dyno again, I'll be sure to make at least one pull with the hood down as well. I've never done that in the past but it makes sense to me now why one should.

The seal on the top of the filter housing fits up snug to the bottom side of the hood then there is a 2" cowl space above that open to the back of the hood. The the back of the cowl space is covered by metal with holes punched in it. A friend of mine has done the calculations and at WOT there isn't enough hole space in the panel to let enough air through to the engine. That is why my housing still has the snout open to the air under the hood just in case the engine needs more air than the cowl panel will let though. One cure is to open up all of those holes a bit larger, but then I'd have to repaint the hood. It's always something trying to get every last little bit out of your ride isn't it?

71RS/SS396

01-17-2016, 06:59 AM

I'm guessing it may lose some power-- how much? Who knows, it not just the amount of air flow but also the path it has to take as well. I learned some interesting things on my current engine when we had it on the dyno, even when I added just a 45* bend to the intake tubes it hurt the power 30 hp vs having the filters bolted directly the the tb's. The air wants to take the straightest path possible, the closer the filter is to the hood the tighter the turn is going to be into the carb. Those small holes in the back of the hood are going to cause more turbulence vs having a wide slot.

SSLance

01-17-2016, 07:16 AM

Lots of trade offs though, who knows which is best without testing all of them?

No spacer drops housing down from hood opening up path on top of housing, but looses the straightening effect below the housing into the air horn, plus pulls in hot air from engine bay vs outside fresh air.

Housing up tight to the hood does create a 90* turn down into housing from hood, but GM used setups like this for years on their hottest hot rods...wouldn't they have tested this?

Open element housing on my spacer or a K&N open top filter on with my current housing might be an interesting option as well.

It is kind of like I discussed with the builder about headers though. I'm not out to get every last little 20-30 hp here or there with this setup. It all has to work together, look good, and perform safely. I will certainly pay special attention to the A\F ratios under WOT pulls once it's back on the road though as I can see now how drastically air flow can affect mixtures.

SSLance

01-17-2016, 12:09 PM

Worked on my plug wires today. 5 years ago I used these Made4u bracket looms to run my wires up over the valve covers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0117161228c_zpsip6jl0hj.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0117161228c_zpsip6jl0hj.jpg.html)

They attached to the holes on the side of the head seen here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0117161224_zpsriw6krig.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0117161224_zpsriw6krig.jpg.html)

With the way my header flanges are now moved up on the fastburn heads, this was no longer an option, plus its just a much cleaner look with the wires under the headers. I also won't have to fight them anymore every time I deal with the headers on the engine, something I hated as well.

I looked around and found this bracket on a shelf already bead blasted and painted...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0117161202a_zpsnirqkpdr.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0117161202a_zpsnirqkpdr.jpg.html)

It's from the 305 I pulled out but I never reused it. And my wife makes fun of me for being a pack rat.

That and an insulated clamp and a few looms tidied things right up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0117161202_zpseollpjpk.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0117161202_zpseollpjpk.jpg.html)

Mucho better...

GregWeld

01-17-2016, 12:15 PM

Looks great Lance!

I never toss stuff like that - you never know who might need them. Brackets can be modified for whatever.

I run all my plug wires under the headers. Seems to be way less heat as the heat rises...

Ben@SpeedTech

01-18-2016, 08:22 AM

Congrats! Those are some fantastic numbers!

What is the spacer you're speaking of? Is it a carb spacer or an air cleaner spacer?

What type air cleaner do you have? I went through your build thread but couldn't find any specific photos of the complete engine in the car, can you post up some when you get to that point?

I have a friend that told me he dynoed his engine with a standard 14x3" K&N with a metal lid, and then put a 14" K&N filter top on it. He said power dropped(!) with the filter top. I guess the air flowed better coming in just from the sides as opposed to wherever it felt like. Looking back I wish I were smarter and when I was in school I could've attended that fluid dynamics class my engineering student friends did, lol!

SSLance

01-18-2016, 08:43 AM

Thanks Ben!

The air cleaner is a knock off of the old 70s Chevelle cowl induction setups, the spacer raises the housing up so that it just touches the bottom surface of the cowl induction hood.

Here are all 3

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0118161035_zpsljtpwpkf.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0118161035_zpsljtpwpkf.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0118161034a_zps5pojbsli.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0118161034a_zps5pojbsli.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0118161034_zps5rhjhw3d.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0118161034_zps5rhjhw3d.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0118161033a_zps8af12ayo.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0118161033a_zps8af12ayo.jpg.html)

My friend John must have 30 hours of machining in building that spacer, but it turned out pretty sweet. Never thought it would be the horsepower adder that it is though.

WSSix

01-20-2016, 10:10 AM

I kept the factory routing for the most part on my LT1. It allows for a very clean look. Keep the wires retained away from the headers and you're good. Keep up the good work, Lance!

Ben@SpeedTech

01-20-2016, 10:39 AM

Thanks for sharing the pics Lance! If you know of anyone with a filter top you can borrow, I'd be real curious how it affects airflow if you hit the chassis dyno. Amazing that something as simple as directing airflow can affect power.

When I had a cowl ind. scoop on my car in the fall it would "suck" leaves into it because of the pressure zone at the base of the windshield. It was a 2.5" scoop attached on top of the factory steel hood with the back completely open. Photo below shows my air cleaner housing (without the seal on it), and the leaves would collect down in there around the air cleaner. I guess that proves cowl induction really works. If you run the hood down on the dyno, maybe a small fan blowing into the back of the scoop would more accurately duplicate driving time.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/73novars/Pumkinator/cowlind06.jpg

SSLance

02-20-2016, 03:39 PM

So, got back on it again today.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220160943_zps0wcfxekl.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220160943_zps0wcfxekl.jpg.html)

Over the past few days I replaced the motor mount inserts, removed and rinsed the radiator, over flow and heater core and cleaned up a bit of the wiring.

Today my job was to replace the pilot bearing and install the engine.

I'm almost 50 years old and I still find things that I am doing for the first time, this was one of those. A great resource for this is YouTube...I must have watched about 6 or 7 videos of people removing pilot bearings by packing some sort of crap inside the bearing, pounding a bolt in and the crap forces the bearing out of the crank. Eff That!! I spent over an hours first trying this with wheel bearing grease, then resorting to bread... Eventually I was so pissed, I drove up to O'Reilly, rented a pilot bearing removal tool and after setting it up it literally took me less than 30 seconds to remove the bearing.

Before starting

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161017_zpskxfktcfb.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161017_zpskxfktcfb.jpg.html)

End of crank full of grease and clutch alignment tool used as a punch

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161027a_zpsqneu8kga.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161027a_zpsqneu8kga.jpg.html)

All of the grease just flowed back out through the needle bearings.

Let's try bread...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161027c_zpsdy4uphgd.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161027c_zpsdy4uphgd.jpg.html)

Finally got smart

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161130_zps4yzelyqo.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161130_zps4yzelyqo.jpg.html)

30 seconds later...waa laa...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161136_zpspuwhz0ko.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161136_zpspuwhz0ko.jpg.html)

After that, things went pretty smooth. Just took my time, went slow, made sure that the changes I made would work without issue.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161228_zpsldlipoxq.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161228_zpsldlipoxq.jpg.html)

The engine is bolted in place, clutch installed, and starter wired up. Tomorrow I'll tidy up a few more new wire changes, drop the headers in...then maybe get the trans installed. But for now, here she sits...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161434_zpssyyc37el.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0220161434_zpssyyc37el.jpg.html)

SSLance

02-23-2016, 07:37 AM

Who says you can't be fast...and beautiful...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0223160906_zpsrehibwgi.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0223160906_zpsrehibwgi.jpg.html)

My headers are about 4 years old now and the ceramic coating on them had taken quite a beating. Between the many many excessive heat cycles and the banging off other things in the engine compartment, they had some significant wear. I scuffed them up with some scotch brite, cleaned real good with prep spray and applied 3 light coats of Eastwoods aerosol Ceramic coating that is supposedly good to 1400 degrees. They turned out great so far, once in the car you are supposed to start the car and have it idle for 20 minutes to cure the coating. Can't wait to see how they turn out, can't be any worse than they already were.

Along the same lines, one thing that happens when you build a custom car...and then race the wee out of it like I have the past few years is things hit things, and things not properly placed melt. As I have the car apart, I took this opportunity to assess previous arrangements, plan changes, and put plans into motion. Getting the passenger and driver side engine wire harnesses to stay off of the headers better was a priority. I rearranged the harnesses, re-loomed them and have them secured much better now. This is something most will never see, but I'll know now that things are safer from heat under the hood.

I also noticed some witness marks where the transmission had been hitting the body. Specifically the shifter had been hitting the passenger side of the hole in the trans tunnel enough to actually tear the shifter cover. The cover has been replaced and the hole enlarged. I also used the BFH to make a bit more room for the two bolt heads on the top of the trans that were also contacting the trans tunnel at times. I then applied a fresh coat of Eastwoods Extreme Chassis black to tidy things back up underneath.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0223160907a_zpsuarqivw2.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0223160907a_zpsuarqivw2.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0223160907b_zpsfk6shpdl.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0223160907b_zpsfk6shpdl.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0223160908_zpsibqdnzdc.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0223160908_zpsibqdnzdc.jpg.html)

Next up, installing the transmission and then back up top to finish a few other detail items.

WSSix

02-23-2016, 06:13 PM

nice work, Lance. Glad to know you're getting close to having the car back on the road.

What flywheel and clutch combo did you go with? I see that's a McLeod clutch. Is it their street twin? I'm finally working on getting my 383 built and am looking into clutches. I currently run a Fidanza aluminum flywheel and Luk replacement clutch and pp. I'd like to upgrade at least the clutch and pp. Not sure what to do about the flywheel. The aluminum has been fine and got even better once I installed 3.90s out back, no more difficult starts from stop. I'm just not sure if I should stay with it.

Thanks

SSLance

02-23-2016, 07:59 PM

Thanks... I went with the Mcleod Street Extreme kit

http://www.mcleodracing.com/index.php/clutch-kits/street-extreme/street-extreme-clutch-kit.html

It is supposed to be good for up to 700 ft lbs. The RST twin was considered but with the new required flywheel it was going to be almost twice the money this setup cost.

I'm just hoping this is halfway street compliant...not like an on off switch. Also hoping it lasts longer than a year. I did find it interesting that the pressure plate that came with this kit has the exact same part number as the pressure plate that came with the RAM kit that I put in last year. The way I understand it, there is only one company that makes replacement PPs for the LT1 style clutch kits and everyone that sells an LT1 clutch kit uses them.

WSSix

02-24-2016, 12:55 PM

Thanks Lance. Yeah, the street twin clutch has always been expensive and heavy. It was the best at holding the power back in the day though.

Luk is the company that produces the pp. You might be able to find a stamping on the pp from Luk. Factory replacement units are also supposedly LT4 equivalent designs. Let me know how it drives once you get it on the road.

Centerforce

02-25-2016, 06:03 PM

Making good progress! Sorry to hear the bread didnt work out for you :P

SSLance

02-28-2016, 04:39 PM

Well, Barney moved under it's own power yesterday...twice actually... I made two ten mile easy drives just to shake it down and all systems are go, except for a somewhat nasty header leak that made it sound like a connecting rod was trying to fight it's way out of the engine.

Naturally this ruined the mood for me and I went dark for most of the weekend while I chased the problem...which I found today. Because I am running smallish oval port headers on raised D-port exhaust port heads, apparently there is very little margin for error in gasket placement. The gasket has about a 1/4" of wiggle room on the bolts where it moves around and if it is at any extreme edge of that movement, there is very little gasket material coverage of the flange. Here you can see where the gasket was stuck to the header flange and near the top you can where it blew thru as the heads heated up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0228161043_zps9nsjwb1w.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0228161043_zps9nsjwb1w.jpg.html)

This was the other header where you can tell that the gasket was centered and there was no leaks on this side.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0228161048_zpsed9xpfud.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0228161048_zpsed9xpfud.jpg.html)

Once I had the new gaskets in hand, I discovered that the very same thing could happen to it if I didn't get the gasket set perfectly in place. I was standing there scratching my head, making marks on the gasket trying to figure out how I was going to line it up perfectly once the header was on the head...and Terri walked up and said, "why don't you just glue the gasket to the header?" So I did just that.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0228161451_zpsbhti3wxj.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0228161451_zpsbhti3wxj.jpg.html)

I'm letting the RTV set up now and next time I have a couple of free hours, I'll get the headers back on the car and continue on with a start up and tuning of the new mill. The new clutch feels great, no fluid leaks so far, no strange vibrations or running issues, everything else seems pretty good. Just need to do some tuning on it once I can hear if there is any detonation, which was impossible before over the header leak.

Vegas69

02-28-2016, 05:28 PM

I wouldn't glue them around the ports. I know they make a high temp rtv, is that what you used?

SSLance

02-28-2016, 05:47 PM

I didn't have the High temp RTV on hand so I just used a few dabs of grey RTV on the parts between the ports. I did not put any too close to any of the ports.

I just need it to hold the gasket in place until the bolts are snugged up. I'm sure the RTV will cook out after a few heat cycles but at this point if that is the worst of the evils I'm dealing with, I'm okay with it.

WSSix

02-28-2016, 07:01 PM

Congrats, Lance! Glad to hear the car moved again under its own power.

SSLance

02-28-2016, 07:10 PM

Thanks Trey, it was bitter sweet...wish the result would have been better so I could have enjoyed the fantastic weather in it this weekend. I'll get er all fixed up quickly though then let the tuning and breaking in commence.

SSLance

02-29-2016, 07:28 AM

Not too exciting but at least it's proof it runs...

vpMUq-ggZSY

65_LS1_T56

02-29-2016, 09:31 AM

Sounds sawwwweeeet!

Che70velle

02-29-2016, 03:11 PM

Great job Lance, it sure sounds good. Where is your oil pressure at?

SSLance

02-29-2016, 03:34 PM

At idle after startup its at 60 psi, once warm and driven a bit it's around 40 at idle. Really hot and heat soaked it stabilizes at around 30 psi idling at 850 rpm. Just a bump in throttle raised right back up quickly.

It has the Brad Penn oil in it the builder used, think it is 10w30.

SSLance

02-29-2016, 08:09 PM

Little bit better day today... Reinstalled the headers today and installed the wideband. Started the car up and it was pretty quiet...maybe just the slightest ticking, almost like a lifter tick but I know it's not. I let it warm up real good, then shut it off and retorqued the header bolts.

So I took off on a test drive with a vacuum gauge and Air Fuel meter running inside the car. Car sounded great, ran great and I really enjoyed my short drive. I drove up to the engine builders shop just to see if he was there, as I pull up...I hear the leak coming back. Sure enough, it has started puffing out a header flange somewhere again. It's not as bad and at least I know what it is now. When I got back home I torqued the bolts one more time with it really hot and a few of them were a bit loose...hopefully this will stop it. Either way, I'm not going to worry about it right now. I know what it is, I know why it's doing it and I may have a plan on how to attack it once I'm good and ready. For now though, it's off to tuning and breaking the new clutch in.

I did open the secondaries up this round...you know, just to make sure they still work. :D It's quite a bit different than before.

SSLance

03-02-2016, 05:22 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0301161708_zps33rp1tfa.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0301161708_zps33rp1tfa.jpg.html)

I've been driving Barney around quite a bit last few days, even drove it 40 minutes across KC to the SCCA meeting last night. I'm having a blast driving it, it's much the same...but oh so different at the same time. It looks the same, it sounds the same, and it drives the same, until you press on the loud pedal. Before it pulled real hard out of the hole, then kind of slacked off the rest of the way up the RPMs. Now it pulls hard out of the hole...and keeps on pulling just as hard all the way up.

I'm really happy with the new Mcleod Street Extreme clutch. It is smooth as silk upon engagement, no chatter whatsoever. I'm still taking it easy on it breaking it in right, but so far I like it.

I've been working on the AFRs, tune a bit, drive a bit, tune a bit, drive a bit and I've discovered that as it heat soaks, the vacuum gets erratic and the AFRs lean out...signs of a vacuum leak. I reused the old carb to manifold insulator so I have a new one on the way, hopefully that is it. If not I have a few other things to check. Once that is ironed out I'll nail down the carb tuning.

It is already much better than I had it last year after the carb swap. While at cruise, it used to stumble or shudder just a bit as it got fat if throttle was applied below 1800 RPM. I drove it home last night in 6th gear mostly around 1500-1600 RPM and it stayed around 15:1 AFR and smooth. Off idle is good as well. It is pretty hard for me to watch AFRs while on WOT for now, need a passenger to do this safely, but I know it feels pretty good with the butt dyno.

A header is leaking again, it gets worse as it gets hotter and is almost quiet on cold start up. I'm not worried about that now. I'm formulating a plan to fix it right but for now I'm working on everything else.

Tomswheels

03-02-2016, 07:51 PM

That's sweet Lance.

GregWeld

03-02-2016, 08:17 PM

Be careful of that leak -- those hot gasses can "erode" those aluminum heads and then you have even more problems.

SSLance

03-03-2016, 06:41 AM

Yeah, I'm not driving it much. Plus I'm certain that the leak is on the header side of the gasket, not the head side.

I'm developing a plan for a fix, just need to nail down someone good with a tig welder and a machinist to clean the flanges back up after.

SSLance

03-05-2016, 07:09 AM

Well, it's not hot rodding if you don't have to love on some things...right?

Seems my continuing battle for space on this car while trying to cram 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag continues.

I pulled the headers off yet again yesterday to investigate for a possible gasket fix and found no sign of a leak whatsoever...they were sealed up tight. After some reassembly, some discussions with the engine builder, and more investigation...I discovered I could feel a rod cap contacting the windage tray inside the new Canton oil pan once the oil pan started to take heat.

It clears and is quiet when started cold, but the more heat the pan takes, the worse the feel and the noise gets. This was not present during the dyno runs, our thoughts are the pan shifted sideways just a touch when the engine was sat on it for the ride home. We knew it was close and we thought this might be a possibility when we first discussed the noise, but the header leak seemed more likely so I spent a week chasing that angle. Had I just put my fingers on the pan instead of everything else under there beside the pan, I could have saved myself a lot of time and anguish.

The builder wants me to bring the car to him because he says he has a trick way of moving the pan over a touch and cinching it back down. Sure hope it works as option #2 is lifting the engine to remove the pan and modify it or use a thicker pan gasket.

I'm frustrated yet happy at the same time that the issue is now properly diagnosed and we can continue on with a proper fix.

I've got about 200 miles on it now and I must say it is a radically different feel that what I had under there before. It looks sounds and feels almost the same until you open the secondaries up, then things change in a big way. Still getting used to it and still haven't really got on it hard as I'm trying to break the new clutch in the right way. Can't wait until I can finish the fine tuning on a quiet engine and turn the wick up to really see what she has now.

WSSix

03-05-2016, 12:41 PM

That's good news, Lance. Glad it's working out well for you.

olds87

03-06-2016, 03:45 PM

Great news

6camaro9

03-06-2016, 04:18 PM

I hate to hear about the bottom end of your motor. Hopefully once you get it fixed you can get out and really start enjoying it. Thanks for all the info about the headers it was really helpful.

SSLance

03-09-2016, 04:53 PM

Barney is back home safe and sound, tucked away in the house garage and ready to be driven...

The shop raised the engine a bit and dropped down the pan. They snapped these two pictures with their Snap On scope Camera (I took pictures of their screen, sorry for the quality).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0309161258_zpsewaawrpk.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0309161258_zpsewaawrpk.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0309161258a_zps3bkhyuiy.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0309161258a_zps3bkhyuiy.jpg.html)

What you see there is a piece of metal that holds the scraper. On that metal you can see where a rod nut was just touching it enough to knock the plating off in one spot.

Here is a picture that shows the scraper better

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/7a02f098-44a9-497f-8aee-4dfda1332606_zpshznu5xii.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/7a02f098-44a9-497f-8aee-4dfda1332606_zpshznu5xii.jpg.html)

They then pushed down on the metal just a bit there where it was hitting and reinstalled the pan being sure to push it as far to the passenger side as possible before cinching it down.

The rods cleared when turning the engine by hand so they buttoned it up, put new oil and filter on it and test drove it to put some heat in it and it stayed quiet. I'm calling it fixed.

I didn't like any part of this, but they assured me that it is not all that uncommon and not that big of a deal, but also realized the noise was unsettling. I'm just glad it's fixed so I can go on with the rest of my off season projects... I sure appreciate Yancy taking care of this for me, this was much easier than pulling the engine again to pull the pan which would have been my remedy.

GregWeld

03-09-2016, 05:23 PM

It's better than your car builder (in my case Steve Frisbee Auto Restorations AKA: SAR in Portland Oregon) starting and running your brand new engine without any oil in it at all.....

Had to get that in there! LOL

SSLance

03-09-2016, 05:28 PM

Doh!! :D Yes, it's better than that.

We all understand that shiat happens. Sometimes it happens to some more than others and sometimes it's a lot worse shiat than others... How it is dealt with when it does happen separates those I'll deal with again and those I won't.

This was an unusual deal where circumstances made things worse, no one to really blame for the circumstances, only praise for those that helped fix it. Only loss was some time.

SSLance

03-18-2016, 07:23 AM

I think I might just leave well enough alone... :D

I have about 500 miles on the new mill now, it is running fantastic and exceeding all expectations. Now that the clutch is broke in I can really start hammering on it, might even make a video or two...

What I have been working on lately is programming the MSD box to get the timing as efficient as I can get it as well as working on the cooling system to keep the temps in a more comfortable range.

The timing escapades can be followed here if interested http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=48612 I am going to stop right where I'm at instead of advancing the distributor to 45* locked in as I'm a bit concerned about rotor phasing and cross firing with it that far advanced. I really don't see that the added gain by the additional steps will affect the way I drive the car that much, not enough to take the chance of adding additional troubles.

The cooling system is getting better, I might have it where I need it now and if not, I have one more trick up my sleeve. The car doesn't overheat, but the way it was configured...the electric fans wouldn't kick on low speed until the dash gauge went past 220*, then shut back off at around 212*. At idle, any temp over 210* or so caused a bit of an erractic idle, caused the idle to raise from 850 to 950 RPM and the AFRs got a bit wacky as well. As long as it was idling under 200*, everything just worked smoother. This is most likely carb related and I've resigned myself that I just won't get this setup to run as smooth as a EFI inducted setup. It's pretty good like it is though so I just worked on getting the idle temps down. For reference, at cruise on the highway...it stays steady at 180* without the fans running, due to the 180* thermostat.

I had my two fan switches both in the thermostat housing and had the gauge sensor in the driver side head. I moved the low speed fan switch to the passenger side head and that made the fans kick on low speed just before the gauge gets to 220* and it kicks back off between 200-210*, at idle in the garage the fans only run for a minute or so.

This is much better and the idle stays pretty stable in the garage. I don't think I ever hear the fans kick on high speed, really don't think the engine ever gets hot enough for high speed to be necessary. Now I can override the temp switches with my 3 position switch on the dash for the fans, what I will probably do during race days is use the dash switch to put the fans on high right before and right after runs to help keep the temps at bay when not at highway speeds.

If I decide it's necessary, I'll pick up a lower temp switch (like on at 195-off at 185) and put it in the t-stat housing to make the fans come on even sooner. This is a pretty easy fix and won't require draining the water again or moving any wires.

One thing I can not figure out though, and I'm sure it is carb related is the idle speed after driving the car. No matter how hard or easy I drive the car, once out on the road, any time I come to a stop light, the idle stays between 950-1000 RPM. I can not figure out what is different, or what is happening after the car is driven but it must be either extra fuel in the idle circuits or maybe extra air getting into the carb somehow, but it is constant and has been like this for a while. About the only thing I have not tried to correct this is swapping out the PCV valve. Not sure if that would affect this but I've pretty much resigned myself to live with this as well.

Like I said, most people driving this car would never notice any of this, all they would notice is this car runs VERY close to as if it actually had fuel injection. Starts are seamless, even hot starts, it can be driven right away after start up with no hiccups, it never has even the slightest of hesitations once on road...if you ask for it, it is there every time... Overall it is SWEET to drive. Can't wait to get it out on the track. My first event is an autocross test n tune April 9th.

GregWeld

03-18-2016, 07:58 AM

Just my opinion - for what it's worth....

I've NEVER known a small block Chevy that ran with 45* advance.... and the more efficient the heads are - the LESS timing they require.

I've taken many EFI tuning classes - including those where the engine being tuned is on a dyno. It was demonstrated to us that FUEL RATIOS were relatively unimportant... affecting very little horsepower on the dyno from pig fat to too lean. What WAS important was as little as 2* of timing off optimal. The timing could affect as much as 40HP with just the slightest change. Remembering that horsepower is nothing more than a mathematical equation based off RPM and TORQUE... the torque is critically important to making a horsepower number.

Back in the day - during my drag racing years. We'd make a full throttle run - then pull the plugs (we used tow vehicles as I ran D/Gas). We'd then compare the MILES PER HOUR -- and read the plug strap. With the right timing - the miles per hour would improve - and the plug strap would change color right in the middle of the curve. That was a bingo. Now days we need a dyno to find this critical event.

SSLance

03-18-2016, 08:10 AM

Greg, at WOT my engine's sweet spot is 32* and I currently have my distributor locked out at 32*. I can however retard the timing either by set RPM or vacuum with my ignition box. I currently have it retarding the timing at high load, low RPM instances with the MAP sensor and boost retard function to prevent pinging when driving on the street.

These engines will idle cleaner and cooler with 37-40* of timing and cruise timing (just off idle with a light load) also likes some extra timing. The way to accomplish that with my setup is to lock the distributor in well advanced (like 45*) and retard the timing via either RPM Run retard or Boost retard with vacuum signals. Doing this will help (a bit) at idle and heavy load, no vacuum, low RPM instances...but do nothing for WOT high RPM runs.

This is one of those street car vs race car battles that I constantly find myself in. Race car won this round, even though it still drives pretty dang good on the street too.

Ron Sutton

03-18-2016, 09:12 AM

fleet

03-18-2016, 09:41 AM

Good tech talk Lance, Greg and Dr. S. Sauce. :thumbsup:

miltmilton

03-20-2016, 10:28 AM

Lance,

Will you be in Mineral Wells, TX in May for the SCCA CAM Challenge?

milt

SSLance

03-20-2016, 01:46 PM

I was finally able to secure an entry to the Midwest Muscle Car event in Putnam, IN this year, an event that I've missed out on the last couple of years...then the SCCA announces that the Texas CAM event is the same weekend.

I'll be in Putnam...

SSLance

03-26-2016, 09:27 AM

I decided that since my engine upgrade is basically finished and I had a bit of time and money left over...that I'd tackle some left over suspension projects.

My first chore was to corner weigh and balance the car again. I have not done this since before all of the interior changes last year and the aluminum heads this year. First step was to disconnect the sway bars front and rear. After that set tire pressures to race trim, remove spare tire and it was ready to weigh...fuel tank was completely full. Basically the car shed about 80 pounds with the changes above, but the corner balance\cross weights stayed in the range they needed so I didn't need to make any adjustments to the springs.

Here is the car in race trim, no driver.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0325161805_zpsvg7om1gi.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0325161805_zpsvg7om1gi.jpg.html)

With driver

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0325161802_zpsyuux7yu6.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0325161802_zpsyuux7yu6.jpg.html)
and cross...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0325161802a_zpsdnziwi59.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0325161802a_zpsdnziwi59.jpg.html)

Car still has 57% on the front just a little bit less than before is all. Cross is within a half a point of the total right weight which is where Ron likes to see the cross on a left heavy car like mine. Right front could use 10 more pounds or so but that isn't enough to mess with making changes in our eyes. Overall I'm happy with it, really good to see it under 3500#s now.

So while it was on the level blocks, I decided to recheck the alignment.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0326161001_zpscn4cabma.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0326161001_zpscn4cabma.jpg.html)

Apparently my mechanic forgot to set the toe last year after making some rear ride height and caster changes...so I raced all year last year with a 1/4" toe in. Good news is, with alignment set at 1/8" out...now my steering wheel is straight again.

Then I removed the F41 Jounce bars and Gran Prix bars along with the already removed rear sway bar...in preparation for some new parts on their way from UMI.

The Jounce and Gran prix bars plus hardware weighed in at 6.76#, Ramey says UMI's new front brace weighs 9#s. I'm thinking the extra 3 pounds will be worth it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0326161017_zpss2hqreuu.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0326161017_zpss2hqreuu.jpg.html)

I'll weigh the new rear sway bar against the old once it gets here and share as well.

That's it for this weekend...unless I get froggy and decide to clean the wheels up, they kinda need it.

Tomswheels

03-26-2016, 03:48 PM

Sweet Lance, excited to see how she does on track!

SSLance

03-29-2016, 12:47 PM

Last night I installed a third chassis mounted Pro-Touring style rear sway bar on my car. The first one I never even finished with the install because it would not clear the lower control arms I had on the car at the time (the company graciously accepted the return). The second one required me to heavily modify the axle mounts to get it to clear my 9” housing and also took quite a bit of reconfiguring to get the end links to clear my tail pipes and lower control arms. I took it back off right away after testing showed it to be much too stiff for my application.

For over a year now I have been asking Ramey at UMI Performance to build a chassis mounted rear sway bar of the right size to work for how I use my car. They did just that and I finally ordered one of their ¾” solid rear sway bar kits for a G-Body and installed it last night. I’m not kidding when I say it took me less than hour start to finish for the install. The hardware UMI provided with the kit is top notch and everything fit just perfect on the first attempt. For example, the brackets used to attach the end links to the chassis, the other 2 bars used a single bolt to hold the brackets to the frame… the UMI kit uses not only 2 bolts but also a reinforcement plate behind the chassis to secure the bracket to the frame.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0329161053_zps0fzwh7wj.jpg

And the end links are short enough to allow the bar to sit at a decent angle even with the lowered stance my car sits at.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0329161054_zpswo5egz6b.jpg

The bar clears the axle housing with zero issues and sits just about as perfect as it can.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0329161055_zpshvi1owvh.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0329161055a_zpsi5bpqxvt.jpg

Overall, I’m impressed with the build quality and more importantly the design that went into this product. I can’t wait to see how it performs on the street and on the track. My first autocross test n tune is April 9th. I’ll have my new UMI G-Body front chassis brace installed by then as well.

SSLance

04-01-2016, 08:33 AM

Put my UMI Performance Inc. front chassis brace on this morning, another fine piece from UMI. Bolted right up, fits like it should and looks to be beefy as heck.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0401161013_zps6xsqehok.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0401161013_zps6xsqehok.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0401161013a_zpsk5incxeu.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0401161013a_zpsk5incxeu.jpg.html)

Clears the massive MuscleBar easily...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0401161014_zpswwhrvnsh.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0401161014_zpswwhrvnsh.jpg.html)

Just one week away from putting all these new parts to the real test. All car needs now is a good cleaning and it's ready to race.

Donutboy97

04-01-2016, 09:57 AM

that does look good... can't wait to see how it performs!!

Che70velle

04-01-2016, 09:06 PM

Good for you Lance! Make sure the ole' video camera is rolling for us to enjoy afterward. Stay safe and have fun!

WSSix

04-02-2016, 04:28 AM

Good work, Lance. Good luck, too!

GregWeld

04-02-2016, 05:59 AM

Good stuff Lance!! I hope the work, and parts expense, pays off handsomely with a big W in Putnam.

Interesting comment on the wheels.... and it reminded me that maybe it was you that used Shark Skin or similar sealer on them?? I was wondering how that was going to work out should you need to come back and clean them up again. Some of these sealers work great - until they don't - and then they're hard as hell to get off when you want to bring the luster back. Will be interesting to read what takes place there.

RE: Alignment specs

I drove the '33 on a couple long road trips and wasn't happy with the front end. Bring it home and throw on the toe plates - and it has 1/8" toe OUT.... WTF! Set it to 1/8th toe in... Check the caster... it's set at 2*.... another WTF! Set it to 7* and BAM! Drives like a different car. LOL After only 10,000 miles I had to buy new front tires because of the tread wear on the inside edges.

SSLance

04-03-2016, 07:57 PM

So I've been fighting one of the AC bracket bolts that doubles as a header bolt ever since putting this engine in. The top of the hole threads in the head are a bit compromised so I've been very leery of cranking too much torque into the bolt...and it kept coming loose. The last time I tightened it...it sort of felt like it was pulling what was left of the threads out so I just stopped and left it. Yesterday the bolt and spacer left the car as I was traveling down the highway...so now I HAD to fix is.

I picked up a 6" stud and some metal pipe for a spacer and got busy. The stud threaded all the way in, hit bottom and snugged up real well with a double nut on the other end. So I marked the stud to show when it's all the way in, cut the spacer, cut the stud to length and put a groove in the end of it so I could run it in with a screwdriver. Dab of high temp RTV in the hole to fill in any voids then ran the stud in until it hit bottom. It snugged up real nice and it felt REAL good to me to really reef on the nut while holding a screwdriver in the stud and it didn't budge. It's tight now...hopefully the last time I have to deal with this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0403161401_zps27uwni2w.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0403161401_zps27uwni2w.jpg.html)

So I set out to do some parking lot testing of all the new stuff. This car is now OMG fun on corner exit!! It had me laughing out loud to myself!! That's what it's all about right?

Bring on Test n Tune and event 1 next weekend...I'm ready.

SSLance

04-03-2016, 08:01 PM

Interesting comment on the wheels.... and it reminded me that maybe it was you that used Shark Skin or similar sealer on them?? I was wondering how that was going to work out should you need to come back and clean them up again. Some of these sealers work great - until they don't - and then they're hard as hell to get off when you want to bring the luster back. Will be interesting to read what takes place there.

Yeah, that ShineSeal doesn't come off so easily... What I did find out is there is a bottom of Shine Polish in the box of the rest of ShineSeal stuff and that stuff really cleaned up and made the other 3 wheels look real good again. The one I polished so long on also cleaned up pretty good and now has a fresh coat of ShineSeal and then polish on it as well.

They aren't Car Show quality clean, but they look pretty dang good for race car wheels. I'm still a believer in sealing up Billet wheels...if you EVER plan on driving your car on regular basis.

UMI Performance

04-04-2016, 01:03 PM

Looking good Lance! Glad we could be a part of it.

Ryan

WSSix

04-04-2016, 07:10 PM

Glad you got that fixed easily. I've been using studs on SBC headers for a long time due to situations like this. Have them on the TA, too. I've found them to be a great solution for tight fits or when the bolt doubled as a mount for accessories. You don't need to crank on the studs though. Just spin then in by hand til they bottom. Once you torque the nut, the tension created will keep everything from loosening.

SSLance

04-04-2016, 07:20 PM

Looking good Lance! Glad we could be a part of it.

Ryan

I'm super happy to have more UMI parts on the car Ryan, so far so good. I put about 100 street miles on the car this afternoon...man it drives good!!

Big test will be this Saturday at the test n tune.

SSLance

04-11-2016, 05:43 AM

My friends that autocross a lot know that there are a lot of factors that go into posting a fast time on course. Once you get past basic car setup and have some experience with driving lines and car control, it really comes down to just finding a way to get those last few tenths you can get out of the driver and the car. Those few tenths can sometimes mean the difference between a win and second place. Sometimes it’s a course design that fits your particular driving style or one that benefits your car setup, sometimes it’s a good night’s sleep the night before, and sometimes you can’t find your rear end with both hands while out on course. I’ve had plenty of those types of days the past year or so, changes to my car requiring changes to my driving style and trying to tie it all together led to a frustrating year in finishing results last year.

Those results carried forward to our Test n Tune last Saturday, I was trying to get used to some new suspension parts and some new power under the hood while in a non-points, lots of runs type of scenario on a course that should have been big car friendly…and I was a few tenths off all day. It seemed like nothing I tried worked any better than before, just the same old same old from last year. Then sometime Saturday night I had an idea, something I could try with my shock settings that was different than anything I had tried before. The knowledge I gained from Ron Suttons suspension workshop last fall gave me an idea and I texted Ron Sunday morning with my idea and asked his thoughts. He replied right back with a “sure, give it a shot”.

I had 4 shots Sunday at a track I’d never seen before so I figured I’d try the new settings for a run or two and if it wasn’t working I’d go back to my basic set up. I went halfway with my new shock strategy on run 1 and I liked it, it seemed to help the issue I was having and I put down a pretty good time. So I went the same amount again on my second run and picked up over a second. This is where I was trying to go with my point though… watching my videos back Sunday night, I realized it wasn’t the shock settings that gained me that second, it was the driver nailing two key elements on the course. On my subsequent runs 3 and 4 after, I blew both of those elements and never got close to that time again. That’s how fickle autocross can be at this level. Those drivers that are always on the top of the charts no matter what car they are driving, they are the ones that nail all of those elements continually, and it is a LOT harder than it looks.

That second run netted me a class win for the first time in over a year by 2/10s of a second on a 43 second course. I could not have done that without my fantastic ‪#‎Ridetech‬ shocks, ‪#‎RonSuttonRaceTechnology‬ suspension tune, the new ‪#‎UMIPerformance‬ rear sway bar, and the Yancy Shepard power under the hood, but in reality it came down to the driver and car fitting the course, the weather on my side, and maybe it was just my day. Regardless it felt great to get a win again…finally!

We had 142 drivers post times yesterday, 10 were in CAMC cars, 6 in Junior Karts, and competition was fierce in many of the other classes. It made me happy to see all of the active participation continuing to grow in this sport.

Here's a video of all 4 runs in order...

RH0HA5Pcq08

See if you can figure out which two elements are the two that made all the difference. :D

UMI Performance

04-11-2016, 05:52 AM

Mizzouri

04-11-2016, 06:19 AM

Congrats Lance on nailing it on your 2nd run (my quickest as well) and getting the first win of our season in CAM C!

And do I agree, the mental aspect of this game is wildly understated and is more often than not the difference between a good day at the track and one that disappoints. Especially when you look back at the last couple seasons when the spread between the 3 of us has been less than 4 tenths on many occasions.

For me, it's time to put last weekend behind me and charge forward. See you next weekend. :drive:

GregWeld

04-11-2016, 06:32 AM

The element starts around 2:18 and runs to about 2:23 (this would be the time showing on the 3rd run) or so.... when you're on the throttle vs choosing to "coast" thru....

Just sayin' -- LOL

SSLance

04-11-2016, 06:34 AM

Thanks Patrick, love racing with you and Keith. Wish he could have made it out yesterday, that would have been really interesting. :D

I'm sure you'll be back up top very soon...so I'm going to enjoy this win for as long as I can though. :trophy-1302:

SSLance

04-11-2016, 06:35 AM

Lance, Car looks and sounds very stout. You are dead on with the drivers, it's hitting the same spots and the right spots every time. Nothing will help the car more than seat time.

Any action photos from the weekend we could post?

Thanks Ryan! No pictures posted yet but I'll let you know when they are. I know there was a photographer out on course for my heat.

SSLance

04-11-2016, 06:44 AM

The element starts around 2:18 and runs to about 2:23 (this would be the time showing on the 3rd run) or so.... when you're on the throttle vs choosing to "coast" thru....

Just sayin' -- LOL

There may be a bit time to be had there, but that isn't what I'm talking about.

The thing about pushing hard there is if you screw up, you pay the price ALL the way through the slalom and that kills you...so I tried to tip toe through that section most of the time.

Here were the actual times of each run for reference:

44.611 clean
43.543 clean
43.377+1
44.629+1

I knew I had locked up the win after the second run so I got more aggressive on the 3rd and 4th runs. Both times (forgetting about the cones) I blew the same two sections.

Donutboy97

04-11-2016, 09:46 AM

Well when you put the camera on the other side of the car, hitting those cones became a lot more noticeable :lol: :lol: :peepwall:

Congrats on the win Lance!!!

SSLance

04-11-2016, 06:02 PM

Here's how I analyzed the runs, others may see it differently though. My first run I hit every element pretty cleanly, I was just a bit reserved not quite as aggressive as needed for a great time. It was my safe run. The second run again I felt I hit everything pretty well with more aggression. There was probably a tenth or two left here or there mainly with shorter lines getting closer to cones and a bit more throttle...but still not bad.

With that on the books I got aggressive and on the next two runs I completely butchered both the start\first turn element and the gate before the finish. I found I could get way more grip off the line than I was used to and while trying to really get a good jump, I'd mess the entry into that sharp lefthander up. Huge loss of time there. Then I'd just get way too aggressive on the long sweeper and carry too much speed into the finish, locking the brakes up trying to stay on course.

glassman

04-11-2016, 06:07 PM

Nice job Lance (with everything). Love seeing the new setup, more importantly, looks like its paying dividend's too.....cheers..

mike

GregWeld

04-11-2016, 06:26 PM

I was just guessing - because it's really hard to tell when the whole run looked pretty good to me.

One time when I was watching an autocross with a whole bunch of really good "X'rs" -- I could see one driver that just couldn't get thru the one corner -- it was real obvious that the line was wrong compared to the others. After watching for awhile... I gathered up the guts to go tell my friend that the line was slow and "here's what everyone else is doing". BINGO.... Time dropped the very next run.

I'm sure when in the hot seat - it's just hard to figure out every friggin' corner every time. I know I can sometimes and other times I continue to just keep trying different things until it "feels" better. Then Sutton tells me I suck. LOL

SSLance

04-11-2016, 06:41 PM

I'm more of a "feel" driver than a technical driver. I know guys that pace off corners, pace off slalom offsets, they know at what MPH they can make this corner and that corner. Then you see them after a run with their face in a tablet looking at the data from the run planning how they'll make changes for their next run.

For me, that's too much info...too much data going on inside this simple head. I have to rely on muscle memory and my gut and hope my hands and feet do what my gut wants them too. There are 30-50 different elements that a driver has to place their car correctly into in 30-50 seconds usually and with the SCCA anyway, you get 3 or 4 shots at it...that's it. Those that learn, adapt, and put into play the quickest...usually win.

Sutton is always saying to me, what's the car need? Is it loose...is it tight...on corner entry...roll thru...corner exit??

I always say..."It needs the driver to quit screwing up!!" :D

I can make this car loose, tight and dern near perfect...usually purely on accident.

GregWeld

04-11-2016, 06:46 PM

Sutton is always saying to me, what's the car need? Is it loose...is it tight...on corner entry...roll thru...corner exit??

I always say..."It needs the driver to quit screwing up!!" :D

LOL --- You have no idea how many times we've had that conversation.... and I give him that same exact response. "It needs someone that can drive". The car is way better than I am. I'm okay with that! We have a good time and that's all that's important. I'm still waiting for my check for winning the race... or the trophy. They just don't seem to care to send 'em to me. WTF. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

SSLance

04-11-2016, 06:47 PM

Nice job Lance (with everything). Love seeing the new setup, more importantly, looks like its paying dividend's too.....cheers..

mike

Thanks! Hope you get your car sorted and back out and about soon.

SSLance

04-11-2016, 06:50 PM

Well when you put the camera on the other side of the car, hitting those cones became a lot more noticeable :lol: :lol: :peepwall:

Congrats on the win Lance!!!

You know...if you wiggle a cone and it stays upright and partly in the box...it's not a penalty right! :D

Thanks...

WSSix

04-11-2016, 07:32 PM

Good job, Lance!

Che70velle

04-11-2016, 07:41 PM

Lance, once again thanks for the video. Car looks like it's working great, and the engine sounds VERY healthy. I'm looking forward to my first attempt at dodging cones, hopefully sooner than later. I've logged thousands of laps while turning left...I've never tried turning right. Your car rocks!

SSLance

04-12-2016, 07:20 AM

Couple of runs from Saturday's test n Tune course, few more chances to feel out the new horsepower on this course. Be sure to pay attention at the end of the second run. :D

bX_kGsAKDWQ

65_LS1_T56

04-12-2016, 09:04 AM

Be sure to pay attention at the end of the second run. :D

You mean where it blows the tires off? :thumbsup:

If it's not top secret, what tire pressures you running?

SSLance

04-12-2016, 09:31 AM

It's not top secret Aaron...oh wait, you are registered for MMC right? Scratch that...it IS top secret info. :D

65_LS1_T56

04-12-2016, 02:54 PM

It's not top secret Aaron...oh wait, you are registered for MMC right? Scratch that...it IS top secret info. :D

I figured as much...have gauge will travel:secret:

I was curious as I'm thinking about a different path on pressures. In the past, I've always went lower and lower to try to get the car to bite. I'm thinking I've went low enough to loose some to the contact patch by it rolling over so much.

Watching your videos there was not a lot of tire roll but noticeable squeal (not a bad thing). And maybe it sounds different from the camera's perspective.
I don't run the Falkens on the Chevelle either. I'm trying brand H next.

dontlifttoshift

04-12-2016, 03:19 PM

If by brand H, you mean RS3s, you will be disappoint coming from the RE71s.

SSLance

04-12-2016, 03:24 PM

Joe's tire pyrometer is your friend Aaron. After each run measure tire temps inside, middle and outside and adjust pressures until it's as even as you can get them at end of run.

My setup likes 37 psi up front and 32 psi rear on my $7 O'Reilly tire gauge. Your results may vary...

Panteracer

04-12-2016, 04:13 PM

Lance,
Looks like you and the car are becoming one
That is when most of the things are working right

I can do it in my Pantera (because of lots of seat time)
but the Firebird is a way off for me right now... I used
to drive the wheels off that car but too many changes
Hopefully I will be able to tweak things like you are doing
as that is when it all works... good job

Back in the day (yes I am an old guy) we just drove the
car and adjusted... now you can adjust the car to work
for you... amazing how things have changed

Bob

Bob

65_LS1_T56

04-13-2016, 09:07 AM

If by brand H, you mean RS3s, you will be disappoint coming from the RE71s.

Haha yep. I'm wishing Bridgestone would just make some more (larger) sizes. I built my car around a 295 rear...not much out there now.
I'm trying the RS3's just to try them I guess. I'm gonna run a 275/285 combo. Currently with the RE71s I'm at 265/275. I've never tried to fit a 275 up front and I'm expecting some (more) rubbing. Although the RS3 275 is only 0.2" section width wider than the 265 on there now. Tread width is bigger.

Hopefully next year I won't have this dilemma as I'll be on a square setup.

65_LS1_T56

04-13-2016, 09:09 AM

SSLance

04-13-2016, 10:55 AM

I discovered I was running my fronts much too low with my pyrometer and some diligent post run data collection I learned from Mr Sutton.

SSLance

04-24-2016, 05:34 AM

Spent the day yesterday at Raceway Park of the Midlands making laps in Barney at the Momentum Performance Driving Academy put on by the WRL. Had a blast, learned a ton...really like this track. The horsepower upgrades over the winter were very well utilized today for sure.

This video is of my last session of the day, starts off with a 75% warmup lap then 4 laps at speed, the second to the last lap was my fastest of the day...in the heat of the day too. I learned some driving line tricks while following Rodney Giebel and Mike Norman and then Ron Sutton helped out with some tuning tips to make it all come together.

The video then gets a little exciting about the 9:50 mark...at the end of the long straight when the brakes went away. I called it a day right as I made the corner... :D

We are supposed to have another full day today, given that it's raining right now...and I don't really feel like bleeding my brakes in the,I'm not sure if I'll get back out on the track today or not. Either way, it's been a great weekend already...thanks to Joey Todd and the rest of the WRL crew for debuting this new venture here and letting us come along.

CxUI7fgZ3ro

Che70velle

04-24-2016, 11:22 AM

Lance, you handled the situation very well, and I must say your car looks to be very well sorted out, minus the brakes. Are you going road course brake package, at this point? And what was that blowing around in your car in the video? Helmet bag maybe?

SSLance

04-24-2016, 07:32 PM

Thanks Scott, I like to think I lean toward the safe side when out on track and I pushed harder this weekend than I ever have before. It spooked me pretty good when the brakes didn't grab right away when I hit the pedal...because they were fine in 14 before the long straight. I just stayed on them and hoped to scrub enough off to make the turn.

What I found out today out there in the wet is...I can carry a LOT more speed through turn 1 than I was all day on Saturday. We had a lot of fun in the first to real wet sessions and then one more semi dry session today before packing it up. I'm not sure if I'll take the time to cut up and post the video as it looks painfully slow, but if you watch it you can see me figuring out the edge of the grip and how to sneak up on it closer and closer with each lap. I LOVED running in the wet. It's easier on the car and puts way more back into the hands of the driver. We did two 20 minute session back to back and I wanted to go back out for more. Saturday I was stopping 1-2 laps before the checkers because my stuff was wore out already.

That is the tail of the passenger side shoulder harness flopping around every now and then. Usually I have them tied up but I needed to carry an instructor to get qualified for my license so I had them out and loose and never tied them back up again.

TheJDMan

04-24-2016, 08:07 PM

What license are you going for Lance?

SSLance

04-25-2016, 04:52 AM

I have several friends with Endurance Racing teams that have been bugging me for years to go racing with them, mainly in World Racing League events and some Chump car. Not having all of my personal safety gear was one thing holding me back and not having a competition license was the other.

I now have all of my own safety gear and this weekend was approved for my WRL Competition License...which means if I decide to rent a seat for a weekend at least at a WRL event, I can.

Just in case you aren't familiar, endurance racing is typically a low budget car with multiple drivers and the events are anywhere from 7-12 hours long, usually one on Saturday and another on Sunday. One friend has a team with now two Mazda Miatas and another has an BMW E36 team. I got to know several other teams at this event as a lot of WRL owners\drivers were there at the event as drivers.

SSLance

04-25-2016, 06:47 AM

Okay so, a lot of you won't be too interested in this video, but some might. This was my first session Sunday morning in the wet. The first 4 minutes or so show what I have to do each time to get belted into the car with a HANS device, you can skip forward if you aren't interested in that. I just thought I'd leave it in just to show what we go through, I can't reach the camera once belted in so I start the camera before.

The first lap on track is a warm up lap, I am shadowing my friend Rodney in the yellow Miata to see if I can learn anything about racing in the wet from a veteran. You'll see right away how easily the car steps out and as I'm learning when and where i can push things and when I just have to be patient.

B7ir3ZjJpCs

I had a blast these two sessions, apparently I love racing in the rain. :D It takes so much away from the car and setup and puts it right in the driver's hands. It's fun for me to try to figure out ways to find grip where there isn't any. I wasn't pushing for speed on any of the straights in these sessions, mainly just trying to learn how to corner.

Anyway, hope you enjoy...I sure did.

SSLance

04-25-2016, 10:25 AM

This was the last session I ran on Sunday. We started about 10:30 am and it was still about half damp on track. I used the things I learned in the wet to really start clicking off nice laps as I gained confidence that it would stick.

Really enjoyed the whole weekend, can't wait to do it again.

Ujh5uWIY3tE

analyte

04-25-2016, 06:20 PM

Definitely looked like fun. I'm still getting used to track days so not sure I'm ready to go out on a wet track.

SSLance

04-25-2016, 07:34 PM

What I decided right away was to check my ego at the door, it was muddy everywhere and I didn't want to get stuck or cause an issue. I went out thinking first...just stay on the track. After a lap or two I started feeling my oats a bit, trying to see if I could find the edge...still plenty slow enough that if I did loose grip I could easily catch it. Once I had a good feel of what grip was there, I just started having fun with it. I was waiting...big time...on the straights for Rodney, even let another friend go by so Rodney and I could run together. I really got a kick out of being able to out corner the "race cars" in the wet with my big pig. Pretty sure we opened some eyes...

SSLance

04-26-2016, 10:04 AM

Harry's lap timer shows 1.08 Gs on both left and right turns at around 58 mph, top speed 116 MPH on my fastest lap. 0.47 Gs on braking typically...

That app is pretty cool if anyone wants to log their laps on tack days.

Beach Cruiser

04-29-2016, 05:03 AM

Learning to drive in the rain or wet is an excellent learning tool! nice job! I have Harry's laptimer setup on a tablet in my dash with an external GPS and OBD feed. It even controls my gopro for me! If only I knew how to use it...

SSLance

04-29-2016, 05:57 AM

This was my first road course attempt at using Harry's lap timer. Took a few sessions to get the hang of it but it is pretty cool once you get it running.

I was able to export the CSV files of all of my runs, I don't have any OBDII data in them but everything else is there and it is very interesting. What I need to be able to learn to do is access that data quickly between sessions and apply what I've learned in my next session.

Where I need to improve as a driver is to realize just how much more speed I can carry in any certain corner. I was taking turn 1 7-9 mph faster Sunday morning in the semi dry than I was all day Saturday in the dry. I learned it would stick in the wet if I let off the brake sooner before turn in, tried that in the semi dry and was amazed at the speed I could carry.

SSLance

05-23-2016, 05:18 AM

So, I participated in the Midwest MuscleCar Challenge last weekend for the first time...man what a great event! I'll do a proper write up sometime later, but here's a couple of videos of some of the fun we had!

Snuck into the back side of the Advanced group for a few laps with my instructor Kenny...

RVDperz7nT8

And my best and worse autocross runs on Saturday...

wOBZuJBTr5w

The car did great and the driver did okay...main thing is I brought it home in one piece.

Learned a ton, met a bunch of internet friends in person for the first time and just flat out had a blast...

SSLance

05-24-2016, 06:22 AM

Was really cool to hang out with the UMI guys all weekend, and to let Barney and the Green Machine get to know each other a little better as well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/Midwest%20MuscleCar%202016/20160520-256A6993MMC-ZF-4269-66118-1-001-005_zpspkor9nfm.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/Midwest%20MuscleCar%202016/20160520-256A6993MMC-ZF-4269-66118-1-001-005_zpspkor9nfm.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/Midwest%20MuscleCar%202016/20160520-256A6992MMC-ZF-4269-66118-1-001-004_zpsrajpnjgr.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/Midwest%20MuscleCar%202016/20160520-256A6992MMC-ZF-4269-66118-1-001-004_zpsrajpnjgr.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/Midwest%20MuscleCar%202016/DSC_0969_zpsefxtycil.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/Midwest%20MuscleCar%202016/DSC_0969_zpsefxtycil.jpg.html)

SSLance

05-31-2016, 08:42 AM

Ever since adding the 0.375" wall tube centerpiece to my front MuscleBar last summer, Barney has had a slightly loose on corner exit symptom because the front to rear lateral load distribution was out of kilter. This trait was amplified when I added 125 ft lbs and 100 hp under the hood over the winter. I have to be super gentle on the throttle on corner exit to keep the rear of the car under me. I now have 2 autocross events and over 100 road course laps at 2 separate tracks under my belt with the new setup and while we tried some band-aids with shock adjustments to help with this condition to get me by (and were somewhat successful), it is very apparent that I need to finally heed Doctor Ron's advice and make another suspension change to cure these ills. He's been after me for a while to make this change and I was hesitant because I didn't want to hurt the on street ride of the car. I have put almost 2,000 miles on the car so far this year...it gets driven... I finally gave in though and ordered the parts a couple of weeks ago. I have spun the car around on course more times in the past 6 months than ever before and in order to continue to get faster, this has to stop.

Enter the cure... Old rear spring on the left, new rear spring on the right. We'll call this Stage 4...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0529161240_zpseuj0dfkk.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0529161240_zpseuj0dfkk.jpg.html)

Initial street test drive shows positive improvement, before on a long fast on\off ramp turn...a slight touch of the throttle made the car loose, now I can increase throttle more and it will eventually make the car a bit tight but still very manageable. My parking lot autocross turn test facility had a similar positive result.

The best part is, ride quality really wasn't affected that much. Under normal circumstances it's hard to tell the difference. The only place I really noticed a change was the 1" bump up into the garage that was pretty stiff. Nothing at all that can't be dealt with on a street car, especially if it cures the handling issues.

I am registered for a local SCCA autocross this coming Sunday and I can't wait to try the new setup out at speed on course.

I also acquired these while in Indiana last week.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0523160831b_zps0av9nnoi.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0523160831b_zps0av9nnoi.jpg.html)

The stack on the left are leftover 275 Falkens from last year and the stack on the right are some gently used 255 Rival Ss. I begged them off of the Pichettes and the DragonLady GTA so I could see what dropping down in size but up to a Rival did to the car before laying down the cash for a brand new set of smaller Rivals. I'm not sure if I'll mount them up before this Sunday or wait a bit before mounting them up. I'm milking my way through tires for this year and have several more events left in the set of Falkens currently on the car. Not enough to warrant a dismount, then mount up again later though.

Stay tuned, I'll be sure to update with results after the event. I love trying new stuff, especially if I think it'll be much better and I'm pretty sure this will be a huge positive change for the car.

glassman

05-31-2016, 04:50 PM

Good stuff Lance, keep it coming. I'm in the same dept as you, only phase II we'll call it. Got some stuff coming (well, que'd up) from the good doctor as well.....

Che70velle

06-01-2016, 08:38 PM

Lance, would you be so kind as to share spring specs with us, please?
Will this require a shock re-valve?

SSLance

06-02-2016, 04:46 AM

I've spent a couple days driving the car around now and so far, I like it! The ride isn't bad at all, in fact it's better than when I bumped the compression in the rear shocks up to compensate for the too soft prior springs. I'm not sure I can accurately describe how the car feels on the road now, it's like it pivots or rides off the rear of the car instead of the front. I'm still getting used to how well it corners, rear grip has increased tremendously. I'm loving how I can drive it right up to the edge comfortably and it gets tight first instead of loose...with the rear staying under the car the whole time.

I still have the rear shock rebound and compression set at full soft (so I wouldn't freak out on the ride initially). I'll bump up the rebound to where I used to run it before for my first run at the race this Sunday and see what happens. :D

Doctor Ron said to put everything else back to where it was and run it. I've been thinking that it does seem to be tight once I race it, I can stiffen the rear sway bar up to loosen it up again. And I have plenty of adjustment available in the shocks as well if necessary.

My daily driver truck in on the lift now with the front steering knuckles off getting new upper and lower ball joints, idler and pitman arms...so I don't think I'll get to swapping the BFGs on before Sundays race. That test will have to wait until later.

Scott, I took out 250# springs and replaced with 600#s.

Che70velle

06-02-2016, 02:35 PM

Lance, I could tell that they visually looked to be much higher rated. I'm amazed that you are experiencing a tight condition with these rear springs. Keep us posted sir!

SSLance

06-09-2016, 04:34 AM

Well, my first autocross with the new rear springs was educational. :D It started off pretty rough but with shock adjustments got much better by runs 3 and 4. The late roll thru to corner exit rear grip is vastly improved. I kept sneaking up on it not knowing what to expect and it never once surprised me which is a very good thing, I have fought that issue for over a year. It still needs more tuning though so I signed up for a bonus SCCA event happening in Topeka this Sunday. We should get a few extra runs and hopefully some fun runs after the event which will give me more time to tune on it.

I also mounted these up yesterday...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/0608161518_zpsc5rz597s.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/0608161518_zpsc5rz597s.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/0608161518a_zpsjll7nsko.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/0608161518a_zpsjll7nsko.jpg.html)

They look SO small...but they seem to be pretty grippy so far...

My runs from last Sunday...

J80RXsElEFg

Chad-1stGen

06-09-2016, 09:12 AM

Lance, any insight on theory/logic of increasing the rear spring grip so drastically to increase rear grip on exit? That is in the opposite direction of what my noob understanding would of thought. I'd love to learn why this works.

Also, did you notice an impact on the front end grip on corner entry and mid corner (which I would expect with such a jump in rear spring rate)?

Did you or Ron calculate spring frequencies or motion ratio in making the spring change?

Finally, you didn't get a chance to compare before/after on the same tire compound on a course, correct?

Thanks for being willing to share on this stuff.

SSLance

06-09-2016, 09:40 AM

Chad, I'm sure Ron will be along to explain it correctly when he gets caught up, he'll do a much better job of it than I will attempt to here.

The huge jump in rear spring rate is largely geared toward reducing rear roll rate (or increasing rear roll resistance, whichever way you want to look at it) without relying on a sway bar or help from the front in this manner. This in turn lets the inside rear tire stay planted and working in the roll thru or corner exit portion of the turn which is where my old setup was severely lacking. Ron did all of the calculations and has been trying to convince me to try this for about a year now.

With my rear roll center being so ridiculously high and no way to change that without adding more parts (watts link) this was the next logical step in making the car faster for us. The front was not affected at all, this thing still flat turns anytime I want it too, I can't remember the last time it pushed when not not induced by driver error.

I did not do any back to back tests on the same course...as we never run the same course twice...but my highway off ramp tests were done before and after the spring change with everything else the same including the tires. The rear grip change on long on\off ramps was drastically better with the new springs, application of throttle used to make it edgy loose, now the rear stays stuck while eventually the front will start to slide just a bit when adding throttle, just a light lift brings the front right back in. It is MUCH easier to drive fast this way. The autocross I ran last Sunday was pretty typical of a lot of the courses we run and I did it on my Falkens that I'm very used to so it was a good comparison as well.

What I did not know where to start with on race day was my rear shock settings... I initially had the same amount of rear rebound that I normally run, no rear compression and I hooked the new rear sway bar back up for my first run. Hence the huge drift slide in my very first turn... :D The car was super loose on corner entry, something I was not ready for. The inside rear shock just picked the right rear tire up under braking and turn in and all rear grip was gone after that. For each run after I kept taking rear rebound out and eventually started adding rear compression and I got the entry much better. Roll thru and corner exit were AWESOME, really felt good to not be afraid to push on the loud pedal with authority on corner exit. I only got 4 runs at it though, I believe with a few more driver mods and a click here or there more on the shock knobs can really tame down corner entry and it'll be a much easier car to drive fast on course as well.