1985 Monte Carlo SS known as Barney

[SSLance]

Making a car fast on any course is a combination of many things...first and foremost, the car needs to be neutral balanced so the driver isn't fighting one end of the car or the other loosing traction first. Once the car is neutral balanced, it is up to the driver to get the most speed out of the car in any given corner. Different driver inputs can affect the way the car handles (usually referred to as the driver mod) both positively and negatively. Then one might also have other mechanical issues the driver and car must work around that aren't really chassis related that affect speed. How a driver\tuner deals with all of the above is typically fluid and it is only once all of the above are almost perfect that one will run at or near the top of the speed charts in any given competition.

Throughout the multiple stages of development on this car (with Ron's fantastic help) we've done a pretty good job at keeping the car neutral. We reached a plateau last fall after the addition of the much stiffer front bar and the car had a loose condition mid roll through to corner exit that we could not tune out. Enter Stage 4 I call it, a huge jump in rear spring rate.

I ran one event last week with the new springs and had some tuning challenges. I could tell the springs fixed the issue we intended on fixing, but a few other issues popped up that we had to contend with and with only 4 runs at a typical SCCA event I didn't have enough time to dial everything in.

After some discussion with Ron, we came up with a few more tuning ideas and I entered another SCCA event in Topeka last Sunday with the intention of using multiple runs on a much faster freer flowing course to dial things in further. I can say now that the car is neutral once again and has MUCH more rear grip on mid roll through to corner exit. It took me about 4 runs to get the rear shocks and tire pressures set where I needed them and then I used the next 4 runs to work on the driver mod getting him used to the new setup.

Another issue reared it's ugly head once again though, I've wore out yet another clutch type posi unit and spent just about every right hand corner exit spinning the right rear tire while trying to put the power down which I'm certain really hurt my times. If you can't put the power down, you aren't going to go fast. Watch the right rear tire in the first run, you'll see the black marks it leaves on most corner exits. The second run in the video was my last one during the fun runs after the event was over and was my fastest run of the day (in the 96 degree afternoon heat even). I finally started to get a good feel for how the car was going to react and dealt with the posi issue the best that I could.

eKYJmL5_1M4

It'll take some more work (and $$$) to fix it even better but that's why we do this...right? :D I'm trying to decide now which direction to go with a diff replacement. I know a certain green car that has dealt with similar diff issues and just installed a locker...I can't wait to hear how it does on course with this new addition. Some autocross gurus recommend against a locker, while others like them. I have no idea which way I'll most likely go...all I know is it will NOT be another trac-loc going back in the car.

[GregWeld]

Just remember - when the 'locker' locks up - it want's to push the nose straight....

I run a locker in the Mustang - don't think I'd like it a bit for AutoX..... but the fast guys love 'em.

[Beach Cruiser]

I went with an Auborn Road Race diff in my '00 WS6 autoX car. I couldn't have been happier! Auborn even has a "racers rebuild" program where they'll swap it out

[SSLance]

Interesting... Who facilitated the "racers rebuild" program? A dealer or Auburn direct?

[Beechy]

Lance......nice development program, photos and documentation..... Thanks for the contribution to the website.
Jim

[SSLance]

So, this happened last week.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/GRASS_118_zpsmvzyyq7h.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/GRASS_118_zpsmvzyyq7h.jpg.html)

I am continually honored and flattered by the attention this car seems to get. It is a huge testament to those that have helped me along the way, people like Ron Sutton, Bret Voekel, Ramey Wormer and Ryan Kirkwood, as well as my wife Terri for being so patient with my hobby and my good friend John Parman who never fails to come up with a fabrication solution for my never ending issues that pop up with it. Huge thanks to all of you...

[Chad-1stGen]

Cool write up Lance! What magazine was that in?

[SSLance]

Thanks Chad!!

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/

[Chad-1stGen]

Also, I saw Ron's post about you and if you have gone from 80 something PAX time to top 20 PAX times in your local SCCA then way to go!! I'm impressed! My last San Diego event I paxed high 30 something out of around 130 and my last Cal Club event I paxed just over 100 out of 230. I'd love to consistently pax in the top 20 or even top 20% :)

[SSLance]

Thanks... He was referring to raw times though...not PAX. My PAX times are generally further down the list than fastest raw times depending on the course design and number of entrants.

Participation in our local events has really stepped up the last year or so and we are getting many more faster entrants to our events. Our first event this year I raw timed 29th out of 142 timed runs and pax'd 31st.

https://kcrscca.org/results/solo/2016/2016event1_raw.htm
https://kcrscca.org/results/solo/2016/2016event1_pax.htm

Event 3 I raw timed 46th out of 162, pax'd 50th

https://kcrscca.org/results/solo/2016/2016event3_raw.htm
https://kcrscca.org/results/solo/2016/2016event3_pax.htm

Everyone else switching to Rivals and me being stuck on Falkens has hurt my finishes the past year or so. That is at least a 1-2 second advantage they have from what I can tell. I ran a wore out set of smaller Rivals last weekend to test and it is amazing how much more grip they had. Of course I had other issues which hurt my finishes there. Isn't that always the case? The short tight course at Midwest Musclecar dealt a death blow to my clutch posi, so the last two events I've been spinning just the right rear tire on every corner exit which really hurts on the stop watch. Working on a more permanent cure for that now.

[silver63c10]

Congrats on the writeup, Lance! GRM is always good reading. Your car for sure exemplifies what the CAM class was designed to be, and your sharing the experience here is a big part of that.

Super cool to see the ongoing development of your setup. I keep coming in here and always pick up something from the analysis you and Ron have done that I end up applying to our car in one way or another. Keep up the good work!

[SSLance]

Thanks Duston, all we wanted when we started was a place to play with our cars...and look what it has turned into!

We are seeing more and more guys do like just yourself and take cars that were set up for drag racing and turn them into corner carvers so they can come play with us.

[WSSix]

Nice press, Lance. Congrats! Best of luck with the continued success of the car.

[SSLance]

It has been a while since the last update so here is a little that I have been working on.

For a while now I have been fighting excessive rear brake rotor heat during and after a track session. After some careful diagnosis and help from a few friends, hopefully this will be a big help.

I run the Ford Racing Explorer rear disc brake kit which includes a cast caliper bracket attached to a sheet metal rotor shield that also holds the e-brake internals in place. This shield completely covered the inside face and outer edge of the solid (non-vented) rotor.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0712161719b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0712161719b.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0712161939.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0712161939.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0712161939a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0712161939a.jpg.html)

A little work with a bandsaw should let some heat escape and some cool air get to the rotors now...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0714161435a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0714161435a.jpg.html)

I had the axles out because I was repairing yet the 3rd or 4th burnt out clutch posi in the car. Actually...I was replacing it with this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0709161432.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0709161432.jpg.html)

Barney now transfers it's power to the rear tires through an Eaton Detroit Locker with some of Ron Sutton's 40# internal springs. I've only driven it a few times since and on very crappy stock size tires...but I can tell already that I am going to like my corner off traction, especially on right hand turns...a TON better.

Speaking of tires...this also has happened...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0714160813.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0714160813.jpg.html)

The stack on the left are an old set of 275 Falkens that I've been running the past few years...the stack on the right is my new set of 275 RE71s. I can't wait to officially join the sticky tire club!!! Hopefully this next week I'll have something to mount those tires on.

[Panteracer]

Lance,
You will love the new tires.. wish they made a larger size
for my rears but the Rival S tires are close

Hopefully the rear end will hold up to the extra grip

Bob

[SSLance]

Hopefully the rear end will hold up to the extra grip



Me TOO!!!

I'll have the new wheels on Wednesday!!

[gofastwclass]

Very cool. I love how you are chipping away at the upgrades as weak points are discovered and time / budget allows. Run what you brung, upgrade when it brakes or your skills outrun your hardware.

I would love to watch you guys run somewhere, it looks like a blast.

[SSLance]

Thanks...Stay tuned for more updates... :D teaser pic

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721160755.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721160755.jpg.html)



The SCCA is racing out at MCC in Blue Springs this Sunday, you should come out. I may or probably won't make it out with Barney though, just depends on how Saturday goes. There are lots of CAM cars already preregistered though.

http://www.motorsportreg.com/events/kcr-solo-school-event-7-2016-mcc-blue-river-prec-driving-ctr-scca-kansas-city-305914#.V5D-1PkrKM8

[65_LS1_T56]

Thanks...Stay tuned for more updates... :D teaser pic

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721160755.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721160755.jpg.html)



The SCCA is racing out at MCC in Blue Springs this Sunday, you should come out. I may or probably won't make it out with Barney though, just depends on how Saturday goes. There are lots of CAM cars already preregistered though.

http://www.motorsportreg.com/events/kcr-solo-school-event-7-2016-mcc-blue-river-prec-driving-ctr-scca-kansas-city-305914#.V5D-1PkrKM8

Ooooo, I know, I know! :secret:

[SSLance]

:D Yeah I really hoped to have a race report to go along with the rest of the updates, but life got in the way once again and I didn't make it to the event. I'm very close to getting things wrapped up in that area so I can get back to racing more regularly which is a good thing.

Here are the new wheels installed with new RE71 rubber around them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721161817.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721161817.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721161817a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721161817a.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721161817b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721161817b.jpg.html)


They are like works of art... They've been on the car since Thursday and I still stop to look at them everytime I walk by the car in the garage. Haven't driven on them much but the grip from the Bridgestones is amazing! Can't wait to race on them. #Stickytireclub #Finally

[flatoutz]

Wheels look perfect on the car.Liked your article in grassroots motorsports.

[SSLance]

Wheels look perfect on the car.Liked your article in grassroots motorsports.

Thanks...

[WSSix]

Great choice on the wheels, Lance. Have fun with the extra grip!

[silver63c10]

Welcome to the sticky tire club..it's a fun club. I was seriously considering a set of 285 'Stones just to see how they were, but the difference in price to Rivals wasn't enough to justify giving up the width. Interested to see how you like them.

And, the wheels look fantastic! Forgelines are just way, way too cool.

[SSLance]

Thanks guys... It was hard to pick wheels for this car design wise...twice now. I'm happy I stayed with the bright look though, think it works best overall.

I looked at the 285/30/18 RE71s but they were considerably shorter in overall height and I didn't want the effective gear change. These 275/35/18s are almost a half inch wider in tread width vs the 275/40/17 Falkens I replaced. They just barely fit...everywhere...

I'm a bit concerned about slight rubs in a couple places on rear tires once pushed hard on course but I'm hopeful the much stiffer sidewalls keep deflection to a minimum.

[silver63c10]

We had the same thing going to Rivals - way bigger shoulders than the Falkens had. Had to cut down our spacers in the rear and do some more pulling here and there.

Wish there was enough demand for them to make more sidewall sizes in these big tires, but so it goes.

[SSLance]

My fronts should be fine, look at the rears in this pic.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721161817b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721161817b.jpg.html)

I used to run a 1/8" spacer with the old wheels, I left it off with these. I can just barely squeeze my finger between the frame and the sidewall and if the suspension was really to compress, the outer fender may contact the sidewall. I think the top of the tire will tilt in slightly in lean and really don't think it will compress that far anyway, especially with stage 4 super heavy rear springs in there now. We'll see though.

I'll take the spacers with me to my first event just in case. Thankfully the rear axle is perfectly square and centered in the frame and stays there thanks to the double adjustable roto joint UMI arms back there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721161819.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0721161819.jpg.html)

[glassman]

Very nice lance, those rims look fantastic by the way. Dr Ron hopefully cured the rear end whoe's.....good luck out there and keep it sunny side up!!

[SSLance]

Well, I still haven't raced the car yet with all the new updates, but I did machine polish and seal the paint again yesterday...

It cleans up pretty well for a racecar doesn't it?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/DSC07056.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/DSC07056.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/DSC07061.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/DSC07061.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/DSC07065.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/DSC07065.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/DSC07067.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/DSC07067.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/DSC07069.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/DSC07069.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/DSC07075.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/DSC07075.jpg.html)


I have the opportunity to race each of the next 5 weekends, hope to make it to least 2 or 3 of them then the CAM invitational in Lincoln Sept 2-4.

[Tomswheels]

For 1/2 of your 1st lap you will think, well these aren't THAT much stickier, then the mold release will be gone.... Prepare to be amazed....

[WSSix]

Looks damn good, Lance!

[SSLance]

For 1/2 of your 1st lap you will think, well these aren't THAT much stickier, then the mold release will be gone.... Prepare to be amazed....

Will some street driving take care of the mold release or will it take a good heat cycle to get rid of most of it?

And yes, I can't wait to feel the grip...

[SSLance]

We traveled to Lincoln, NE last weekend to race with the Nebraska Region SCCA club on the famed Lincoln Air Park facility (home of the SCCA nationals). It was the first time I've raced in over two months and also the first time on course with the new Detroit Locker in the rear diff, new extra stiff rear springs, and also the new Forgeline wheels wrapped with super sticky Bridgestone RE71 rubber. Racing on the concrete at LAP was the perfect test bed to see how all the new changes work and to get ready for the CAM Invitational coming up in a few weeks there.

We got 4 runs on a SCCA Nationals style course and after just the first couple of elements of the first run, I knew things with the car were MUCH improved. First, the grip from the tires is unbelievable... Second, the locker completely changed the way the rear of the car reacts mid corner to corner exit. I kind of snuck up on things, pushing the car harder and harder in spots trying to find the edge...in most places I never did find the edge which means I still didn't push hard enough.

The car still lifts the inside rear tire on corner entry, rear sway bar is disconnected and rear shock rebound is backed out way softer than I've ever ran it before. What is different though is in most cases it doesn't seem to upset the car. Only if I get back into the gas with one tire still up will is spin the other tire and slide a bit. I played with it in a couple of right hand turns in the later runs and was still able to be real aggressive with the throttle and the car never felt like it was getting ready to step out.

It's not optimum for sure but it's a lot better than it was before. Some sort of rear roll center relocation device is going to be the only cure for this I'm afraid, in the meantime I'll just keep dealing with it.

I never did get comfortable enough to really push it hard in the slaloms, and there were several long slaloms on this course. I'm sure there is more speed to be had there, probably enough to have got me the win this weekend. I thought about staying around for some fun runs after the awards ceremony to work on the slaloms a bit but we had been on the road for 3 days and still had to load up and had another 3 hour drive to get home...so I bailed. I think the locker has changed the way the car feels in the slaloms and I'll get used to it pretty quickly. I know this, the locker never did make the car feel pushy at all, the 40# Ron Sutton springs in it make it very autocross friendly with the sticky street tires.

Anyway, here are all 4 of my runs...watching them back re-enforced what I felt from the driver seat, it corners fantastic...sticks like crazy...and the driver needs to up his game to get the most out of the new setup. Just a bit of salty language at the very end...sorry 'bout that. :D I knew I was just a couple tenths short of the car in front of me and I didn't get it on that run.

To2eqo9NwzI

[z28cp]

Lance, it was great meeting you Sunday in Lincoln. It looks like your improvements are paying off!

[SSLance]

Nice to finally meet you as well Dave, good to see you are a member here too.

Would have liked to watch you run in the dry for sure.

[z28cp]

Would have liked to watch you run in the dry for sure.

Me too :drowninga:

[Air-bender]

Lance,
I have the same 40# springs from Sutton going into my locker. Did you install springs and if so how difficult were they and what special tools did you use?
Thanks:superhack:

[SSLance]

I had the shop that set my third member up for me swap the springs out as well. It doesn't look like rocket science though. Take things apart, swap the springs...put things back together again.

The shop found parts inside the brand new Eaton locker that weren't installed correctly though...and fixed that while they were in there. The pucks the springs push against, one of them was installed inside out from the factory...

[SSLance]

I spent some quality time under Barney again this weekend, race one weekend, chase issues and make improvements the next...the repeat...

I started out by lowering the ride height, over the years for some reason the rear had crept up about a half inch. Ron originally spec'd the rear to be a half inch higher than the front and when I measured it Sat morning it was right at an inch higher. I lowered the rear 7/8s of an inch and lowered the front 3/8s". Hopefully this will help tame down the rear body roll some and overall body roll. As I've increased grip, pictures show the body is rolling quite a bit once again...never ending battle, hopefully this helps.

Then Sunday I tackled installing an adjustable proportioning valve in the rear brake line. First I disconnected the hard line from the distribution block and put a plug in the hole.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0814161347.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0814161347.jpg.html)

This let me pull the front half of the line away from the frame once I had all the clips loose. This extra room let me get my pipe cutter on the line near about the B pillar, or right behind the rear footwell.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0814161347a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0814161347a.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0814161352.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0814161352.jpg.html)

I slid a fitting on the line (yeah me for not forgetting it) then flared the end of the line. I had picked up some 3/8s to 1/8" flare adapters which went into each end of the prop valve then I marked the front half of the line and cut about 2.5" off the end of it. Once that half was flared, I installed it all again, tweaked the line a bit here and there, fixed a leak or three...and here' show it sits now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0814161531a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0814161531a.jpg.html)

It's tucked up behind the footwell so I think it'll be safe and I can reach it easily from outside the car, just kneel down, reach under and twist the knob. Once I'm certain it's all good I'll probably fab up a bracket to make sure the valve stays in place and maybe protect it a bit as well.

Now just need to clean on it a bit, do some parking lot test n tuning and then head to HPT to race it again next weekend to see if the changes helped...

[SSLance]

So, here is a pretty good illustration of how my Ron Sutton Optimized front suspension geometry works...and why this car turns so much better than a stock geometry G body.

I recently lowered the front ride height 3/8" and the rear 7/8" and it had been at least 2 years since I've had Barney on an alignment rack. The jigs I built to do my own alignments at home...don't fit the new wheels...so I figured this was as good of a time as any to do it right and get some real accurate readings on things at the same time.

Here's what she looked like when I first rolled it up on rack.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161305.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161305.jpg.html)

Previously I had set the camber at -0.75 and caster at +9.75. Changing the ride height added camber, but not enough to the driver side for some reason. Caster on the right front was also off.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161313a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161313a.jpg.html)

We decided to shoot for -1.20 Camber, +9.75 Caster at ride height and an 1/8" toe out (more on this later). We got it pretty close with two small adjustments.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161406.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161406.jpg.html)

We then put a pull down jig on the rack and pulled the cross member down 1". This shows what the geometry is doing under braking, like on corner entry.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161436.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161436.jpg.html)

Cross member 1" down, wheels straight ahead.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161430.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161430.jpg.html)

Notice it gained right at 1 degree of camber under bump.

We then turned the wheels 20 degrees to the right.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161431.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161431.jpg.html)

Then left

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161430a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161430a.jpg.html)

Check out the camber gain now! 1" dive and 20 degrees input puts the outside front at almost 5 degrees camber PLUS the caster puts the inside front at + 1.3ish...exactly what one wants to get both front tires digging.

Ron then explained to me clearer that he wanted 0.26 degrees toe out ON EACH TIRE...so we made some further toe adjustments.

Ride height, wheels straight ahead.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161455.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161455.jpg.html)

We figured out that about one half turn on the steering wheel is close to 13 degrees of steering input...which is about all I typically use on an autocross course. So we took one more reading, 13 degrees right at ride height.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161457.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161457.jpg.html)

Notice the toe is now 0.90 degrees and it was 0.56 with the steering wheel straight. This shows it is picking up almost a 1/4" of toe out with 13 degrees of steering input. It also shows 3 degrees negative camber on outside front and +1.00 camber on the inside front...at ride height.

I'm sure if I'm interpreting any of this incorrectly, Ron will swing by to correct me... :lol:

To say I'm stoked to get this thing back out on track and see what it does...would be an understatement. I had a little taste of the improvements made a couple of weeks ago in Lincoln but I think these latest changes are going to make an even larger impact on performance. Being able to dial back the rear brake force to stop the inside rear tire from locking up, the much lowered rear ride height, and the dialed in alignment should make it be like a new racecar all over again.

I'm heading to Heartland Park Topeka Sunday for a Kansas City Region SCCA Solo event which should be a fun fast course and the weather looks to be absolutely perfect for racing... I can't wait!!!

[SSLance]

So I spent the day Sunday racing at the SCCA Kansas City and Kansas Region joint event at Heartland Park Topeka. It was a good day to put all of the recent changes to Barney to the test. I enlisted a friend Jeremy as a co-driver to help shake the car down...and we did just that. Two drivers in the same heat at an SCCA event gives little time for any tuning so all we did between runs was bleed tire pressures and later in the runs watered the tires down to cool them off. Otherwise we just drove the wheels off it.

The car did great, the new tires are super sticky and the suspension changes really helped tame the excessive body roll it gained with the grip back down again.

A friend manned my good camera from the sidelines during a run and it always good to see what it looks like from the outside.

q6ONXQvhsqk


Here is my co-driver Jeremy's best run finishing 2nd just to a 2011 Camaro with 335 Rivals

sPhe0sBXyCI


Here is my best run we got on video (a 64.598) we had camera issues with my fastest run of the day (64.386) which was the first of the day.

0hMVJUi04qA


This is Jeremy in the top frame with a 64.186, me in the bottom frame with a 64.598.

ZV_vXjsq5H4

It looks like he got me in that last turn of the last slalom and the finish. Sure wish I could have done this with the 64.386 I ran on my first run.

Speaking of times, you can see in that video above just how slight a 4/10s of a second difference is on a 64 second run...imagine this. We ended up with 2/10s of a second separating 2nd place from 5th place!! Jeremy finished 2nd with a 64.168 and I finished 5th with a 64.386... It's crazy how close we all were given the differences in our cars and driver experience.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/Event%2010%20Results.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/Event%2010%20Results.jpg.html)


Super fun day racing with the KC guys again, glad I got ot go out, hang out in the camper for Sat evening then spend all day Sun racing and hangin gout with them.

The CAM Invitational Sept 2-4 in Lincoln will be the next time Jeremy and I roll Barney out onto the track again.

[z28cp]

Car is looking good, Lance!

[deuce_454]

i boxed my frame and installed with aluminum bodymounts.. and can really recommend it....

[SSLance]

So I added one more part to the autocross package to help out in Lincoln at the CAM Invitational this weekend... SoloStorm...

I have wanted some sort of data logger for a while now, especially ever since CAM Challenge in Peru last year where I saw all of the top drivers using some sort of system or another. I put Harry's Lap Timer on my phone this spring but was never able to get it to work properly for autocross (it's fine for track days). I finally checked out SoloStorm on a friends phone at the last event was put the plan in place.

I pulled an old Motorola phone out of the drawer, charged the battery and did a hard reset on it...then picked up a Garmin Glo GPS receiver and downloaded SoloStorm to the phone. With just a little bit of setup, it is now functional...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/0825161610.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/0825161610.jpg.html)

Since this is an older dual core phone, I also installed SoloStorm on my new phone as well for backup...since the software suggests using a quad core phone. Hopefully that won't be an issue.

I have the software setup for 2 drivers, set to control the GoPro via Wifi, and set to Bluetooth connect to the GPS receiver. Hopefully this is the last piece (HaHa) needed to bump my driving up to the next level, finding a way to squeeze every last little tenth of a second out of a course in between the scant few runs we get in SCCA style events.

It should be especially helpful with a co-driver that is faster than myself...because I'l be able to digest his runs as well between runs to see what he is doing and where to be faster.

Here is a little video that shows some of what one can do with SoloStorm collected data.

zdDt8DFKqDA

[gofastwclass]

Very cool.

[SSLance]

These two pictures show one thing about this car, it has always been very very repeatable...

Here are my co-driver Jeremy and myself in the same corner a week ago Sunday at HPT, check out how very similar both pictures are.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/14184549_10153946220902992_4295134061830054322_n.j pg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/14184549_10153946220902992_4295134061830054322_n.j pg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/14202581_10153946220957992_2617372515599043802_n.j pg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/14202581_10153946220957992_2617372515599043802_n.j pg.html)

[SSLance]

My Dare to Dream Motorsports team member Jeremy Salenius and I headed to Lincoln NE last weekend to participate in the SCCA CAM Invitational. The Invitational format changed this year to a match tour style...we each ran 3 runs on the CAM only course Sat morning, then 3 more runs each Sat afternoon. The best morning time and best afternoon time were used to determine the class winners for CAM C, CAM T and CAM S. We were racing in CAM T this year.

During the morning session, the car felt good...we were getting used to the course and all the changes to the car and ended up 10th and 12 overall in class out of 17 cars. Then it rained... In the afternoon session in the wet, we finished 4th and 5th in class just .001 of a second off of Robbie Unser in 3rd place and overall Jeremy ended up 8th in class and me 10th. I was very happy with how we did in the wet, a true testament to how well this car handles in the turns. Now we just need to get it to stop better so we can make better use of the little bit of go power it has.

Here is a video of Jeremys best run in the rain. My phone with the Solostorm on it acted up right before the heat and wouldn't connect to the GPS for some reason, so I don't have any data on the wet runs which is a huge bummer.

mPPjl06ppJE

Sunday morning we started out fresh, brand new event on the same course. The format was 3 runs each, top 16 CAM C drivers and top 8 T and S drivers would advance into the shootout where they would be paired off and run head to head until only one driver was left in class. We did much better on Sunday with me finally beating a co-driver and finishing 9th, 0.010 seconds off of 8th place and the final spot in the Shootout and Jeremy about 0.100 seconds behind me.

Here are our best Sunday runs...

gT-JBrAF9x0

And here are the two Solostorm videos of those same two runs, I still haven't figured out how to overlay the Solostorm data over the GoPro video.

Lance with a 40.435

0XjLKYKZKQ4

Jeremy with a 40.539

gCrGNl0XDGo


Overall we had a great time, the weather was fantastic, the fellowship was off the charts, the car ran great...and we finished okay. I'll take it. We did discover a brake line leak after the Sunday runs and I spent a bit of time chasing it down yesterday...and right now have the rear brakes just plugged off to keep it from continuing to leak. Looks like I have some decisions to make before going forward with a repair...

Huge thanks out to those that helped me get to where we are today with this car, Ron Sutton and Ron Sutton Race Technology for the awesome setup and tuning support, Ridetech for the grippy shocks, UMI Performance for all the super nice suspension pieces, Forgeline for the beautiful yet very functional at the same time wheels and mostly my patient and understanding wife Terri for letting me take the time to pursue this crazy hobby of mine!!

[SSLance]

Oh boy...too much fun to be had in the next day or so...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-2fXPBpp/0/X2/20160919_185321-X2.jpg

I'm going to attempt to build my own brake line from the prop valve to the rear flex hose, shouldn't be too difficult right? I mean I have a template to use right in front of me...

[65_LS1_T56]

Oh boy...too much fun to be had in the next day or so...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-2fXPBpp/0/X2/20160919_185321-X2.jpg

I'm going to attempt to build my own brake line from the prop valve to the rear flex hose, shouldn't be too difficult right? I mean I have a template to use right in front of me...

take your time... Be one with the tube grasshopper.

[SSLance]

So the thrash to build a new brake line happened last Friday night, I got the new line pretty close but could not get the last bend that went through the frame and down to the flex line short enough to fit...so I ended up cutting my new brake line in half and using it.


https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-HCdxfgC/0/L/20160924_084003-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-S8W5ZWd/0/L/20160924_084039-L.jpg

Once that decision was made it only took another hour or so to tidy the new lines up and bleed the brakes. Barney was now ready to race on Sunday at a local Kansas City Region SCCA autocross.

The day started out looking very wet and since I had relatives in from out of town that wanted to attend, I decided to drag Barney to the race with the RV to give a place to escape the weather. It worked out great as I was able to park it where there would be a great view of the track as well as let us use the awning as cover while we worked tech during the rain before heat 1.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-LNCMRxW/0/L/20160925_074729-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-vzRdq5C/0/L/20160925_075433-L.jpg

It rained pretty hard for heat 0 and heat 1 but had almost stopped before heat 2 was to start, the heat I and most of my CAM competitors were running in. I love it when we all run the same heat and get to race with each other chasing each other's times run after run. Since the track was very wet at the start and slowly dried out as we went along, we were all picking up time on every run, typically a second or two a lap which is huge in autocross. Every time a CAM guy made a run it was faster then his last and usually good for the fastest overall...it made for great racing!

My first run was a "feel out" lap to test the grip and get used to the unusual layout we were racing on for the day. The course had 4 very fast sections (50-66 mph each) one sharp hairpin and a few other technical elements in play. Here is my first run...

zPO1A-RK3Bw

I had issues all day with my data collection which I'll explain a bit later, hence the video not starting until 10 seconds into the run. This run was a 54.7 second run which the fastest of all first runs...but that wouldn't last long. Here all all of the results in class...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-CFLtVpD/0/XL/Screenshot_20160928-074917-XL.png

One my second run, halfway through the run I said to my Mom who was along for the ride... "Something is broken"

The car was rolling over on the outside front on both sides something fierce. Once back in the grid I looked the car over and the only thing I found was both of the rear coil over springs were unseated on the bottom retainers. I borrowed a jack and reset them then went out for my third run. It wasn't any better... Here are some pics of the car on course for that third run.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-jHQB3LL/0/O/KCR%20Event%2011.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-s5FqZmR/0/O/KCR%20Event%2011%202.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-bXBHzHS/0/O/KCR%20Event%2011%203.jpg

I was in third place in class by this time almost a second behind the leaders and had a car that was rolling over like a car without a front sway bar installed...which is what I found after the run. The bolts that hold the sway bar bushing bracket to the frame had started to come loose! The front bolt was about 2 full turns loose and the back bolt about a half turn loose. I borrowed a wrench quicklike and was able to snug them back up for my last run.

So not only was the track really drying up on each run, but I had to go out for my fourth and final run with a newly repaired car AND drastically changing conditions...to try to run down the guys in front of me that also picked up almost 2 seconds on their last runs. I picked up almost 2 seconds on my last run but it wasn't enough as William Agnor laid a whooping on the field on his last run and Keith in a borrowed car also picked up a bunch of time for a second place finish in a borrowed car. I was happy with third given the day I had...but sure wish I hadn't had car issues to try to give William a run for his money on the day.

I also learned something about my Solostorm app that I use to collect data. On my first run that I posted above, it stayed logging during the whole run. On the rest of my runs, it would stop logging on the hairpin after the first cross over and I didn't know why. What was happening is I had the "stop trigger" set at 20 mph and on runs 2-4 I was slowing down to ab out 17 mph for that hairpin and shutting off the logger. This is why data collecting is so cool. In the wet, I took that corner at 22 mph, later as it dried up I was going much faster entering that corner and slowed down to around 17 mph mid corner to make the turn. Had I noticed this after my second run, I could have adjusted my driving and I'm certain picked up more time by entering the corner slower and earlier.

Here is the first half of my last run...

rIRwJJTTCsM

And here is the last part after the logger started back up again...

ybPqRXgTIw4

Super fast and fun course, saw tremendous speeds several times...including the last straight at 66 MPH which also led to me almost not making the final turn before the timing lights... Had a blast at the event, this is what autocross racing is all about... Making adjustments on the fly and getting what you can when you can and seeing how it stacks up. Love racing with my CAM brothers and can't wait to do it again...

[Air-bender]

Lance, can you provide any feedback on your Eaton locker with the 40# springs? More traction out of the corners?
Thanks!

[SSLance]

Oh man...I love my new locker!

I guess the biggest thing different about it is EVERY time I step on the gas, exiting a left turn, exiting a right turn, in a decreasing radius sweeper, increasing radius sweeper, in the wet...doesn't matter...every time it does exactly the same thing. Once you engage the throttle, the locker locks up and both wheels pull. It has taken a limited traction issue that I used to have to drive around completely out of the picture.

The one oddity of it I guess you could say is a loud clunk it sometimes makes on corner entry when it releases the outside wheel so it can spin faster. It does it to varying degrees...I'm assuming based on how much bind is built up in the locker before it releases. I'm pretty used to it now about 50 autocross runs in the car with it, but the first few times it sure freaked me out. The clunk does NOT upset the car at all and I can tell you this...I've raced the car with the locker several times now on wet courses and contrary to what a lot of people think, the car is very fast in the wet with the locker set up like this.

So...I hope that shows just how happy I am with it. :D

I will say this though, when we took it apart to swap out the springs...we found some "abnormalities" with how the locker was assembled which were corrected before it was put back together. I now suggest to everyone I talk with that buys a new carrier to take it apart and inspect it before installing it in the car. I'm certain the issue we found would have caused problems down the road but was easy enough to correct once an assembly diagram was located.

[gofastwclass]

Glad you are happy with the locker. I've heard people say they don't corner well (release / grab at odd times). Ironically none of the people I heard that from had actually owned one.

Years ago I had a friend with one in an ElCamino and it drove fine but I never pushed the car hard. It did make the occasional odd noise but was never unpredictable while I drove the car.

[SSLance]

One my second run, halfway through the run I said to my Mom who was along for the ride... "Something is broken"



I was right...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-Rd3g7Cv/0/XL/20161015_133136-XL.jpg

Not sure exactly when it broke, I thought I looked at them pretty closely after the 2nd run and thought they were fine. After the third run is when I noticed the sway bar bushing brackets were loose and I tightened those up but didn't look at the end links again.

We'll get 'er all fixed up and fast again soon though, new parts already on the way.

[GregWeld]

....... when you actually take your cars to the track and BEAT ON THEM... oh yeah -- there's consumables... and carnage... and wear... and.... oh my. I actually love that you're experiencing this 'cause, you're out there using it!!


Glad that was that simple!!!!

[SSLance]

If I would only have crawled under it a bit sooner to investigate...I may not have had to skip yesterday's event... But oh well, I was busy chasing hot air balloons instead.

I did get the car washed Saturday though. ;)

[Che70velle]

Lance when I saw the pics of your car leaning so badly to the side, I said to myself that you must have more than a loose sway bar bracket, and that it looked like you had no bar at all in the car. I'm glad you found the issue, and that its an easy fix. Keep digging buddy!

[craig510]

If you pull up the data sheet on the THK ball joints that Ride Tech uses you can see that they are marginally strong enough. I consulted their (THK) engineering department on them and the recommendation is to use a factor of safety of three. That would put the max recommended load around 400#. I am surprised they last as well as they do.

[Panteracer]

I am surprised at the bolt sizes they use
on today's sway bars. Must be a weight savlngs
thing. My old Herb Adams bars have big heims
on them with bolt ends twice the size of the newer
bars I have recently purchased

Bob

[SSLance]

Just a little update for my racing friends on something several of us have been working on this off season. Many of us that are trying to race our older muscle cars have had issues getting our triangulated four link rear suspensions to do something they weren't ever really designed to do...keep both rear tires planted when cornering hard. I have tried many band aids on Barney which all have helped a little, but none really solved the issue completely so I decided it was priority number one this off season. I'm tired of my rear wheel drive car lifting the inside rear tire in the air on corner entry.

My first thought was to put a Watts link on the car to lower the rear roll center. The issue is with the lowered ride height, the very short upper control arms are at an extreme angle and this puts the roll center somewhere up around 18" high or so. A Watts link (or Panhard bar) is sometimes used to lower that roll center to a fixed height but what we found is that the axle housing also migrates left and right while the axle is articulating and if you try to hold the roll center in a fixed position, it puts the rear suspension in a bind.

I first discovered this by doing a little demonstration on my rear axle which you will see in this video. The shocks, springs, and sway bar were disconnected, the axle is held at ride height with a jack and articulated to simulate body roll. You can see the axle migrates over a half inch each direction...no good...and the roll center is somewhere up around the trunk floor and it moves around as the axle articulates. Right after I did that I saw that Scott Wheeler posted pictures of his newly installed rear axle in his bare A body frame and he also had a Watts link frame in place, so I contacted him and asked him to do some additional testing for us with a camera running. I had him disconnect his springs, set his axle at ride height and articulate the housing under several scenarios. What we found was the Watts link bell crank had to be near the very top of the frame in order for the axle to articulate without bind. The idea behind adding a Watts is to not only lower and fix the rear roll center, but to also be able to adjust the roll center quickly to track conditions. This shows us that we just can't get the rear roll center where we want it without creating a bind given the constraints of a triangulated four link. We even took it one step further and disconnected the driver side upper arm to create a"Poor mans 3 link" to show that movement as well. Huge shout out and thanks to Scott for helping with this, the videos really help to show exactly what is going on. Also thanks to Aaron, Ramey Andrew and Ron for contributing to this discussion and helping to find a cure.

Hopefully this visual demonstration will show others that are trying to help their four link suspensions work better what is going on under there...and help them find a solution as well.

We are working on a new plan for Barney which will be revealed soon but we now know this...it will no longer be a four link setup for sure.

EDM9_-4kjHg

[DBasher]

Lance, you've got a lot more knowledge on this then I do and an actual set up to stare at. With that being said....In my mind, articulating the axle does not seem accurate, we used to do this with 4wd suspension but we were looking for clearance and droop. Finding a point in which the 4 link binds with everything disconnected may not present everything you need to see...does it travel that far with CO's and sway bar in place? What about chassis/body flex and forces applied on the mounting points?

I'm paying attention and do appreciate you sharing what you're learning!

:thumbsup:

[SSLance]

I'm sure it's not 100% real world dynamic, but it's a start.

Think of it this way though, if the suspension is binding with everything else unhooked except trailing arms and a watts link, just think how hard it is going to bind once weight is on it and sway bars, springs and shocks are all hooked back up again. Talk about stiction...

We've been working on this for a while trying to come up with a reasonable answer, and we'll get there. I just saw an opportunity to share a visual demonstration we don't usually get to see and had to go for it.

[DBasher]

I saw the FB post and read through the replies, it's a great conversation amongst friends. Could you achieve a lower roll center by changing the mounting points and not adding the watts? It seems in the video that the watts is what was hanging up the suspension, unless it was adjusted all the way to the point that it wasn't doing much of anything anyway....just thinking out loud.

Keep on keepin on!
:thumbsup:

[SSLance]

Yeah, bunch of good guys I have for friends...all just trying to learn how to make our cars better together.

I guess you could rearrange the uppers to help the roll center, not sure how good you could make it though and even then it would still be a fixed roll center, not adjustable.

Why go through all the trouble of rebuilding the rear suspension and not make it as good as it can be? I'm more in the clean slate frame of mind since I know I'm redoing it all anyway.

[DBasher]

Bye-bye backseat!

[SSLance]

Oh that ship sailed a few years ago already...

https://photos.smugmug.com/CAM-East-2015/i-XSvsF4C/0/X2/DSC_6848_edited-X2.jpg

[Flash68]

That's a nice clean back seat area there Lance. :thumbsup:

That's all I got. Carry on with the Basher. :)

[WSSix]

Well, this just got more interesting that's for sure. Keep us posted, Lance, and good luck.

[SSLance]

Thanks guys... It's good to have goals...especially when it's single digit temps outside and everything is covered in ice.

Spring will come soon enough though, so time to get cutting soon.

[DBasher]

It'll be interesting to see what you come up with, Lance. I wonder how much lighter the car will be without that shag carpet.:peepwall:

[SSLance]

That CAM legal carpet is pretty light... :)

[SSLance]

Just an update to let everyone know I'm still around... :)

Life has gotten in the way of all things car related for the most part anyway. There have been several planning meetings with Doctor Ron and we believe that a solid plan is now in place, but the timing of putting said plan into motion has changed. It'll probably be mid summer now before I get the plasma cutter (and Visa card) out...but in the meantime Barney is still pretty much race ready from last fall minus a few preventative maintenance type jobs. Feels pretty strange not tearing the car apart in the off season, first time ever for me.

I did get to hang out with GW and a few of his car friends in Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and that was very cool. I also have several friends deep into off season car projects that I'm trying to help with and stay involved in so that helps to scratch the itch.

Meanwhile it's mainly been about house projects...both fixing up the old house and looking for a new house, both of which are very time consuming it seems.

Just wanted to say "Hey" and let everyone know I'm still around and watching... :peepwall:

[miltmilton]

Great to hear from you! Dr. Ron spoke highly of you in the seminar I attended last October. I totally empathize with you about "real life" interfering with your "want to's". Look forward to competing with you sometime in the CAM Challenge or Pro Solo venues. A/G bodies rule!!!!

[grendel]

Yep. This build is the inspiration for Montel, the Slow Sedan that we're doing.

315's square, turbo'd L33, 4L80E, 9" rear.

Thanks for wiping out my bank account. :trophy-1302:

[JohnJ@RideTech]

I like this thread! Keep it coming man, nice to see a G-Body build.

[SSLance]

Yep. This build is the inspiration for Montel, the Slow Sedan that we're doing.

315's square, turbo'd L33, 4L80E, 9" rear.

Thanks for wiping out my bank account. :trophy-1302:


LOL... That's precisely why I'm retooling right now and keeping my powder dry. Upgrading to 18" wheels and a locker last fall wiped me out for a while and the next round of upgrades are even pricier.

Just signed up for Track Night in America at Heartland Park Topeka in April, that makes 3 road course events I'm registered for so far this season, two are away trips also. Starting to get that itch... :whistling:

[SSLance]

I like this thread! Keep it coming man, nice to see a G-Body build.

Thanks! The turning point for this car happened when I bolted on my set of TQ shocks... Some day I'll get them back in for some of this upgraded Secret Sauce I keep hearing about.

[SSLance]

Great to hear from you! Dr. Ron spoke highly of you in the seminar I attended last October. I totally empathize with you about "real life" interfering with your "want to's". Look forward to competing with you sometime in the CAM Challenge or Pro Solo venues. A/G bodies rule!!!!


Thanks!! Did Ron also make fun of my cup holder during the seminar? :D

I "may" try to make CAM East in Grissom this year and maybe the Invitational in Lincoln as well, will have to see how the rest of my life gets along between now and then.

[miltmilton]

Thanks!! Did Ron also make fun of my cup holder during the seminar? :D

I "may" try to make CAM East in Grissom this year and maybe the Invitational in Lincoln as well, will have to see how the rest of my life gets along between now and then.

Yep, he sure did. Said it was the hardest part of the build.

milt

[SSLance]

It's been a while since I've updated this thread...mainly because there hasn't been much to update on. Life has taken a front seat lately and Barney has been relinquished to the back seat for now, it's all good though...many updates are planned and in the works once my schedule relaxes a bit.

I did make an upgrade to my crankcase ventilation setup which worked wonderfully, it's detailed here http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=54712 and I also added the Chad Ryker GoPro external mic mod just in time for my first time out on a big track in almost a year.

Last Thursday I went to the SCCS Track Night in America event at the freshly repaved and reopened Heartland Park Topeka road course. What an awesome event...if there are any TNIAs near you, I highly recommend attending if you can. It's a great value mainly designed to get noobies acclimated to running on a road course but also gives veterans a place to play on the cheap as well. We got (3) 20 minute sessions in on course for $50...can't beat that.

The car worked great, this was my first time on a road course since adding the locker, big rear springs, 18" wheels and of course sticky RE71s and the changes were noticed immediately. I did have to spend some time knocking the rust off the driver, and could use some more of that apparently after watching all my missed shifts in the video. I think my shift rail has finally reached the point of needing some attention, I seem to struggle to find both 3rd on an upshift and 4th on a downshift. Coming over the top of a blind Alpha 0 hill at 130 mph at end of front straight may have contributed to my missing of the 5/4 downshift a few times as well... :D

The catch can worked awesome, the engine didn't use a drop of oil nor miss a beat and I LOVE the microphone mod... Check out the video of my last session and turn your speakers up..

kAx2J5qU6ck

I spent the first couple of laps trying to keep up with my friend Keith...unsuccessfully, once he got away I settled down and got a few good smooth laps in. I have learned (at least on this slick new pavement anyway) that these RE71s are slick when cold...have about a 2-3 lap window of goodness...then slowly go away again as they overheat. I don't remember the Falkens having such a narrow window of goodness...but the extra fun laps of stickiness make up for that I'm certain.

[SSLance]

I spent last weekend at the Midwest Muscle Car Challenge stretching Barney's legs on the Putnam Park Road course and the concrete surface at Terre haute airport for some autocross. While we had some weather to deal with all weekend long, we still had a blast and got lots of seat time in.

Here's a little clip of the video I took while Ramey Wormer of UMI was riding with me on track. Not only were we broadcasting on facebook live during the session, but after Ramey was describing a better tactic for me to use in the upcoming hairpin turn...he decided to answer an incoming phone call while we were out on track! It was freaking hilarious!!

QZC5CJTw6AI

This video was taken during the 3rd session in the rain, so we were only running 6 or 7 tenths at most...but it was still fun to stretch Barney's legs with Ramey in the car.

This video was taken during the 2nd session when I ran my best laps. The first lap is a 1:23.672, 2nd is a 1:24.875 and my high speed was 122 mph. I'm still learning the new setup under the car along with the new tires and especially when to take full advantage of them during a run session.

oaLXegwKrNY

This video shows my best couple of laps in the 4th and final session. I ran very similar times, middle 1:23s but the car was low on fuel and fuel starving on the straights (you can see and hear it nose over about the start finish line) limiting me to about 115 mph top speed. That just shows how much faster I was getting through the turns in that session.


Cm9ds-73k6k


The next day we autocrossed... The day was cut short by weather, only 3 dry laps in. Here was my best which put me right at mid-pack something I'm pretty proud of considering the competition.

Apqdkb7FJis

The car still needs some help, there are some big plans for the future...I just need to get some other priorities lined out and finished first before we start on Stage 6 or 7...wherever we are now. Huge thanks to Ron Sutton for helping me get it this far, can't wait to see where it goes next.

[UMI Performance]

Here's a little clip of the video I took while Ramey Wormer of UMI was riding with me on track. Not only were we broadcasting on facebook live during the session, but after Ramey was describing a better tactic for me to use in the upcoming hairpin turn...he decided to answer an incoming phone call while we were out on track! It was freaking hilarious!!

Anyone who knows Ramey personally would not be surprised by this in anyway... that is the best part :D

[fleet]

Lance,

As always, good to see your updates and your track vids. :thumbsup:

[flatoutz]

Lance,

Cool videos.Is there any plans on going bigger with wheels & tires possibly 315s around?

Mike,

[SSLance]

Naw, I don't think so. That would involve major sheet metal surgery and flares and this is too nice of a car for that. I believe we can make better gains by fixing other parts of the car that don't involve destroying the stockish appearance it has.

[SSLance]

Finally figured out how to export my Midwest MuscleCar videos at Putnam from Solostorm with data overlayed on them. This first lap was my fastest lap of the weekend (1:23.684) chasing Keith Lamming... Check out the sustained cornering Gs and top speed on the front straight.

https://youtu.be/g09r7HZAdks

g09r7HZAdks

This lap was a 1:25.501 but if you look at the top speed on front straight it was about 7-8 mph slower because the car was fuel starving coming on to the straight. The rest of the segments were faster than the fast lap above.

https://youtu.be/JjRT9c0Zyl8

JjRT9c0Zyl8



I did a little prep work on Barney this weekend and he is registered to race at Heartland Park Topeka next Sunday for the SCCA autocross there. Big plans are getting closer to happening with the pending sale of our house...hopefully will be able to show some parts soon...

Meanwhile...we wait...

[SSLance]

Just got back from CAM East where Aaron Oberle and I wheeled Barney all weekend. Here is my update post from facebook for those that don't do facebook...



Finally caught up and have fully reflected on last weekend at CAM East. What a fun event... I know everyone has their own idea of what makes an event fun for them, this one just seems to hit 100% on all of mine. It's a great mix between a super fun and fast, yet still very technical course, a FANTASTIC group of attendees and people that put the event on, and just the right amount of fun mixed in yet still very competitive at the same time. Even though Aaron and I in Barney didn't have anything for the top drivers in our class...we gave the mid packers everything we had and by the end of the qualifying runs Sunday morning, I made it into the Challenge which was a first for me. I am so glad that I decided to go.

It was very cool to see so many of my distant racing friends (family) again, it's amazing how even though you may not have seen someone for a year or so, you start right back where you left off the last time. You all are good peeps for sure!!

Barney is wounded...but still left all he had out on the track. I have to say thanks to the Ron Sutton Race Technology tuned suspension and especially this weekend the RSRT locker which kept both rear wheels pulling all weekend long. Pretty sure there will be a few more of those installed in some other cars in the coming weeks. I worked course on corner 5 and there sure seemed to be a lot of mad posi units by the finish of every run. If anyone wants to know more about the locker, just let me know.

Here are my last three (and fastest) runs from Sunday morning. The third was a 44.5XX which put me in 14th out of 28 cars I believe in class. Watching these back along with other driver's videos, I know there was a 43.XXX for us out there for sure...that just shows why the really good drivers are always at the tops of the charts.

HkvFXCBb-xk

Can't wait to do it again, we'll be back locked and loaded ready for the fun and the competition this event provides.

[SSLance]

Results from Saturday here...

https://dk1xgl0d43mu1.cloudfront.net/user_files/scca/downloads/000/037/586/Peru_CAM_Challenge_Saturday_Official_Results.pdf?1 502571663

[Tinker]

... I have to say thanks to the Ron Sutton Race Technology tuned suspension and especially this weekend the RSRT locker which kept both rear wheels pulling all weekend long. Pretty sure there will be a few more of those installed in some other cars in the coming weeks. I worked course on corner 5 and there sure seemed to be a lot of mad posi units by the finish of every run. If anyone wants to know more about the locker, just let me know.



Hey Lance, I sure would like to know more about the locker. I have read some people complaining about some posi units being too Loud for them. I know you like to drive Barney on the street yet, how is the noise level from the rearend in the car? What springs are in it? Sure sounds like you are liking it at this point.

[SSLance]

The locker noise is subjective I think, some might think it's unacceptable for a street car, others might not even notice it. I have Ron's 40# springs in mine. During street driving, you will notice it clacking a bit when turning while backing up mostly. Once under way going forward, it really doesn't make much noise at all. You never hear it engage and only once in awhile will you hear it disengaging when entering a slow turn in a parking lot.

Driving wise on the street, the only thing I notice is every now and then it'll kind of pull one way or the other just a bit, never enough to upset anything....it's just something the you notice about how the locker acts just a bit different than a clutch or other type of posi.

On track, it acts completely different than a regular posi...and it makes more noise too. I still haven't figured out why the noise level varies, but when the locker disengages on corner entry, it can be anything from unnoticeable to a clang loud enough you think you dropped a driveshaft. I believe it has to do with how much tension is built up on the mechanism just before it releases and whether there is compression or acceleration input onto the pinion. If you are steady state when it releases or accelerating just a bit...it's not a big deal, if you are decelerating under engine braking on turn in when there is lots of grip (like on concrete) it'll bang pretty hard. You can clearly hear it in some of the runs in the video above.

Regardless of all of that...if you want spool like traction on corner exit with a diff that will also release for easy cornering on street or track...this is the ticket.

[Tinker]

Thanks, Lance.
I think I can deal with some noise for the increased performance. I definitely prefer it to smelling burnt rear gear oil or even having to change out a smoked posi unit.

[SSLance]

This upgrade is something I should have done a long time ago. Getting the rear spring rate and ride height we wanted...along with the preferred shock travel meant having no preload on the rear coilover springs. In fact, at full droop there was about 4" of gap between the top of the spring and bottom of retainer on the shock body. It got to where I carried a rubber mallet with me and if the rear of the car had been lifted, I'd smack the spring on the side to seat it again on the upper retainer.

This caused some wear on the shock body itself from the spring rubbing it when not fully seated (among a couple other issues also). So when I pulled the shocks off to send them back to Ridetech to get re-valved with the latest Ron Sutton Secret Sauce valving this week, I decided it was time to fix it properly.

BTW, HUGE kudos to Bret and Jeff at Ridetech and Ron for getting my shocks in, repairing and re-valving them and back out the same day!! Really appreciate you helping me with my limited time table to get this done.

On page 183 of Ron's new catalog are RST # 7750-A & 7750-B shown here, a spring divider and take up spring.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-jpss6h5/0/03d8a0fb/XL/20170826_143933-XL.jpg

http://www.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/catalog/?page=182

Here they are installed on the car with suspension at full droop.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-LJLS6xk/0/b2c4d1b9/XL/20170826_153247-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-JdH2hWh/0/6634efab/XL/20170826_153253-XL.jpg

and with weight fully on springs...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-bjzWCMf/0/162c3708/XL/20170826_153436-XL.jpg

No more carrying a hammer with me to reset the rear springs into the perches...or damage to my shock bodies.

And stay tuned... I'm working on a plan for a MAJOR upgrade being put in place to happen very soon... :G-Dub: Hopefully get things rolling early this week...

[FETorino]

And stay tuned... I'm working on a plan for a MAJOR upgrade being put in place to happen very soon... :G-Dub: Hopefully get things rolling early this week...

:peepwall:

Well. Do tell. What's the plan?

[GregWeld]

And stay tuned... I'm working on a plan for a MAJOR upgrade being put in place to happen very soon... :G-Dub: Hopefully get things rolling early this week...



GREAT!!! Glad to hear you're ordering a Track Warrior so I can have someone to play with!

[WSSix]

I thought you were moving to AZ? Or, is this before the move?

[SSLance]

:peepwall:

Well. Do tell. What's the plan?


Woah woah woah there big fella...not ready to break the news just yet. ;)



GREAT!!! Glad to hear you're ordering a Track Warrior so I can have someone to play with!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :innocent:


I thought you were moving to AZ? Or, is this before the move?

We are moving to AZ...soon. Going to try and get this job done before the move.

[FETorino]

Woah woah woah there big fella...not ready to break the news just yet. ;)
.

I won't tell anyone. Promise.

[SSLance]

I won't tell anyone. Promise.

Stop... :D

[SSLance]

I am getting email notifications of a BUNCH of tracking numbers heading my way!!!

:popcorn2: :G-Dub: :flag2: :ups: :cheers:

[Air-bender]

How many boxes does it take to have everything from page 65 of Rons new catalog shipped?

[SSLance]

Not sure...that is the "next" stage... ;)

I'm currently working on pages 82, 97 and 99... :D

And the answer is still "a lot".

[IndyNova]

Great build! I may be acquiring an 85 Monte SS, so this thread will be getting saved...lol

[SSLance]

Stuff is about to get real... :D

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-ZsnPWdL/0/29fb6045/XL/20170910_092709-XL.jpg


Everyone knows I've needed a brake upgrade on Barney for years...MANY years in fact.

Ever since finding out about Ron Sutton developing a kit to adapt Stoptech brake kits onto Pro-Touring cars, I've known that's what I wanted for Barney. I only want to do this once and I want to do it right!!

The issue causing the long delay in installing them was there isn't a kit available to adapt the brakes to the stock G-body metric spindles I currently have on the car. I spent SO much time dialing in the front end geometry and the steering based on these stock spindles, I was hesitatant to just install another set of spindles...knowing what it would take to keep the geometry optimized. What you see in the picture above is everything that I'll need to use to dial the geometry back to (and hopefully even better than) what I currently run.

This is no small undertaking but with Ron's guidance, some perseverance, and probably a few choice four letter words...I hope to have the new spindles installed in the next week or so.

Then... THEN... We can get around to upgrading the brakes to the best brake kit out on the market... Stoptechs...

I can't wait!!!

[grendel]

2wd Blazer spindles?

They have the same g body geometry and can use a C5/C6 caliper abutment.

This is what we did on Montel.

[GregWeld]

If I end up keeping Old Yeller (will at least until the new Track Warrior car is finished anyway) - I'm thinking I'd for certain upgrade my current Wilwoods to the new StopTechs Sutton is offering.


Now -- pick up a tool, and do something with it!!! LOL

[SSLance]

2wd Blazer spindles?

They have the same g body geometry and can use a C5/C6 caliper abutment.

This is what we did on Montel.


I know many that have gone this route, and it was something I considered as well. The wheel bearing would still be an issue and fitment of Ron's adapter kits were another question mark.

These spindles use a C7 hub which is stout and inexpensive to replace at the same time which takes the bearing part out of question. And Ron has worked out all of the geometry to make sure his kits adapt the Stoptech brakes to these spindles with no issues.

This was never about me finding a cheap way to upgrade the brakes, it was much more about finding the easiest way to put the best brakes possible on Barney while optimizing not only the camber gain, but the steering geometry at the same time.

Time was also a factor, I have a very small window to get this swap done while I still have a lift and a shop to work on it in. Taking unknowns out of the equation helped make the decision to press the buy button now and get started.

[SSLance]

If I end up keeping Old Yeller (will at least until the new Track Warrior car is finished anyway) - I'm thinking I'd for certain upgrade my current Wilwoods to the new StopTechs Sutton is offering.


Now -- pick up a tool, and do something with it!!! LOL

Everyone I've talked with that has put these on and raced with them...absolutely endorses them. I have zero concerns about how they'll perform.

I'll get the tools out shortly...just need a few more boxes to show up before tearing things apart.

[FETorino]

If I end up keeping Old Yeller (will at least until the new Track Warrior car is finished anyway) - I'm thinking I'd for certain upgrade my current Wilwoods to the new StopTechs Sutton is offering.


Now -- pick up a tool, and do something with it!!! LOL

That sounds like something you really should do to Old Yeller asap. :poke:

Lance. Those new spindles and tall balljoints should help with camber gain and I'm sure Ron has everything worked out so you can eliminate any bump steer and optimize that inside tire contact with the caster adjustment you have.

Will you gain any Ackerman with the new steering gear?

Maybe Ron will chime in a little about the specifics of the specs.

The Stoptech's on AO are the best working part of the car. I'm more than happy with my brakes.:thumbsup:

[Ron Sutton]

That sounds like something you really should do to Old Yeller asap. :poke:

Lance. Those new spindles and tall balljoints should help with camber gain and I'm sure Ron has everything worked out so you can eliminate any bump steer and optimize that inside tire contact with the caster adjustment you have.

Will you gain any Ackerman with the new steering gear?

Maybe Ron will chime in a little about the specifics of the specs.

The Stoptech's on AO are the best working part of the car. I'm more than happy with my brakes.:thumbsup:

Hey Rob,

Great questions.

With the change from the G-body spindles Lance had ... and the custom height Howe ball joints to optimize geometry ... the Speedtech ATS Tall spindle only required the lower ball joint studs to be changed for us to achieve optimum roll center.

For the most part, Lance's geometry will stay "almost" the same as it was, which was already optimum as far as:
* Roll center height at ground level in dive
* Roll center migration toward the inside front tire CL
* Optimum camber gain

The only changes we achieved to the roll center was:
* Roll center migration PAST the inside front tire CL
* This will provide a little more grip out of the inside front tire when cornering

The biggest gain we made was ... drum roll please ...
* More Ackerman
* This will provide a LOT more grip out of the inside front tire when cornering
* So, we'll need to add more rear grip to keep it balanced

As Lance stated, the primary reason for the spindle change was so he could go to the new Triple Duty StopTech brakes now ... versus 6-9 months from now. These brakes are flippin' amazing.

By having an ultra rigid caliper like the StopTech ST60 (proved most rigid in my independent testing versus Brembo, AP, Baer & Wilwood) I could ... and did ... increase the piston sizes & area substantially. That combined with the lightweight (only 16#), cool running 14" StopTech AeroRotors® created a high braking force package with street performance pads ... instead of race pads.

The pad we use is unique in that it has good cold bite, a .40 CoF (typical of high performance street/sport pads) and will handle up to 1200° with zero fade. With all other pads, we get EITHER ... good cold bite & low heat tolerance (typically 700-750°) ... or good heat tolerance (1100-1400°) and poor cold bite. This is the first pad I've tested that offers both. A big difference is these pads utilize the newer "Adhesive Technology" that lays down a layer of material on the rotor. The pad & the adhesive layer is where the .40 CoF comes from. A lot of pads use older "Abrasive Technology" where the pad just grinds on the rotors & wears them out.

While we will be offering this special pad for most other brake systems, the pad is only part of the magic. The braking force would be no different than any other .40 CoF pad ... in common braking packages. It's the rigid caliper & higher piston area combined with this pad that makes the magic.

The pads have very little squeal or sound to them. They do dust up some, but less than HP+ or other Autocross pads & way less than Track Day/ Race pads.

Here are my Total Braking Force Guidelines:
2500# = Average passenger car
3000# = Performance street car (Corvettes, Vipers, etc)
3500# = Good track braking system with big tires
4000# = Race braking system with wide slicks
4500# = Full race brake systems with serious downforce & wide slicks

Here is how the StopTech systems I’ve created works out:
StopTech ST60 Front / ST40 Rear / 14” Rotors / 309 Performance Pad = 3460# Braking Force

What's the big deal?
* That's more than a ZR1 Corvette
* One pad compound does street, autocross & track days
* A full set of pads front & rear only cost $186
* Longer pad life & Longer rotor life
* Less inertia & unsprung weight with lightweight 14" rotors
* Cooler running brakes

In short, these are the best brakes designed for triple duty Pro-Touring cars that drive on the street & do autocross and/or track days.

More info & applications HERE (http://www.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/catalog/?page=94)

:cheers:

[SSLance]

^ Yeah that!!! :trophy-1302:

[dontlifttoshift]

. These brakes are flippin' amazing.



QFT....for realz.

[SSLance]

QFT....for realz.

QFT? :question:


I now have tracking numbers on the final (and prettiest) parts needed... :gitrdun:

Garage sale Friday and Sat...then we start disassembly. Hope I don't sell any tools that I'll need for this. :peepwall:

[dontlifttoshift]

Quoted for truth.

[FETorino]

Is it done yet?:stirthepot:

[Ron Sutton]

QFT? :question:




Donny knows firsthand ... because he has installed & run the new StopTech brakes on ProTouring cars on street & autocross with the 309 pad.

Giddy up ! :bigun2:

[dontlifttoshift]

.....and track days. The out stopped the previous boosted setup on track without issue, without changing pads.

[SSLance]

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-znvcZZv/0/229dfcd9/X2/20170915_192725-X2.jpg

[GregWeld]

Nice box!



Is it done yet?



LOL

[SSLance]

You all are so impatient... You are supposed to stop and smell the roses along the way, remember?

Last day of garage sale today, work on Barney starts tomorrow...

[FETorino]

You all are so impatient... You are supposed to stop and smell the roses along the way, remember?

Last day of garage sale today, work on Barney starts tomorrow...

:y0!: So it's not done yet? How long before you open the box?
:popcorn2:

[Ron Sutton]

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-znvcZZv/0/229dfcd9/X2/20170915_192725-X2.jpg

Lance Hamilton just got his StopTech Brakes designed & optimized for Pro-Touring Cars by Ron Sutton Race Technology.

These are the ONLY brake systems that do ALL this:
* Provide more braking force than a ZR1 or C7 Corvette
* Have the most Rigid Calipers, Big Piston Area & 14" Aero Rotors & Hats
* Designed specifically for Manual Brake Pro-Touring Cars doing "Triple Duty"
* Utilizes ONE PAD for Street & Autocross with great cold bite & Track Days up to 1200° with zero fade !!!
* These Pads are new "Adhesive Technology" = low dust, low squeal, long life, low cost AND don't eat up rotors!
* No other brake system on the market today compares

Learn more here: http://www.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/catalog/?page=94

[SSLance]

:y0!: So it's not done yet? How long before you open the box?
:popcorn2:

Box... Opened...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-v5GCLn7/0/11282541/XL/20170916_132738-XL.jpg

Barney is on the now leveled rack, simulated driver weight in front seat, ride heights marked, ready for disassembly tomorrow morning...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-6fbTb2k/0/661c12c3/XL/20170916_132752-XL.jpg

First thing with be a test fitment of rotors and calipers installed on new ATS spindles then placed into one of the Forgeline wheels...just to be sure. Then I'll pull the springs off the shocks, pull stock spindles and steering assemblies off and start bolting all the new stuff on.

Plan is to mock all steering stuff in place and spend some time cycling the suspension and getting the bumpsteer and ackerman to Dr Ron's liking...then we'll get busy putting these beautiful new brakes in place.

[bergers59]

Lance Hamilton just got his StopTech Brakes designed & optimized for Pro-Touring Cars by Ron Sutton Race Technology.

These are the ONLY brake systems that do ALL this:
* Provide more braking force than a ZR1 or C7 Corvette
* Have the most Rigid Calipers, Big Piston Area & 14" Aero Rotors & Hats
* Designed specifically for Manual Brake Pro-Touring Cars doing "Triple Duty"
* Utilizes ONE PAD for Street & Autocross with great cold bite & Track Days up to 1200° with zero fade !!!
* These Pads are new "Adhesive Technology" = low dust, low squeal, long life, low cost AND don't eat up rotors!
* No other brake system on the market today compares

Learn more here: http://www.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/catalog/?page=94





So these are better brakes than aerolites?

[Sieg]

Assuming you have the 309 pads in that box, I'll be interested to hear your opinion. I have Hawk HP+ in the Camaro, ran HPS' in the Miata, and installed the 309's in another car with Brembo calipers and during the aggressive Stop Tech bedding process was very impressed with the pad's feel and performance. :thumbsup:

[Ron Sutton]

So these are better brakes than aerolites?

The short answer is, "Yes. These StopTech brakes I designed are better than the Wilwood Aerolites. I still like, recommend & sell Wilwood Aerolite 6 brake packages. They are a quality product & the most rigid caliper Wilwood makes. Caliper rigidity is a big deal that the average car guy doesn't understand to look at.

The brake packages I designed utilizing StopTech ST60 calipers front, ST40 calipers rear & Stoptech's lighter, cooler running 14" AeroRotors ... are a higher performing product, with many more benefits & features ... as well as a significantly higher price tag. I didn't design these new brakes to be price competitive. I designed them to be the best possible brakes you can buy for a Pro-Touring car ... especially if the car is also used for autocross & track days.

I feel these two brands of brake products appeal to different customers. The Wilwood Aerolite 6 packages are the "best bang for the buck" and the Stoptech packages I've created are the very highest level of performance braking for Pro-Touring cars.

The long list of Features & Benefits my StopTech systems have over other brake systems are:

Calipers with more rigidity & less flex than any other caliper available to our market*
The bridge of the ST60 caliper is so strong & unique it is patented
The caliper bridge is removable on both ST60 & ST40 calipers for easier brake pad changes
Firmer pedal feel from the high rigidity calipers = Gives driver better sense of braking degree
More net braking force per piston area due to less caliper flex
Much larger piston area / Critical for manual brakes
Cleaner release of brake pad during hard stopping = Easier to modulate braking force
Piston dust seals for longer piston life
Anti-knockback springs behind the pistons = reduces or eliminates knockback
Floating rotors = reduces or eliminates pad knockback
Patented Aerovanes built into AeroHats® = pull cool air across the rotor surface
Patented Aerovanes built into AeroRotors® = pull more cool air through the rotor than any other rotor
AeroRotors® run 11% cooler than other rotors
These 14" StopTech AeroRotors® only weigh 16.2#
That's 2# to 5#lighter for less rotating inertia = Quicker acceleration & stopping
This Brake system was engineered from scratch 100% for manual brake Pro-Touring cars
Correctly matched front & rear piston area for balanced front & rear braking
More braking force (3460#) than a ZR1 Corvette
This is BIG = One pad works well for Street, Autocross & Road Course Track Days
The StopTech 309 Pad has great cold bite for autocross & street braking
The StopTech 309 Pad does dust the wheels / Just less than all other Autocross & Race pads
The StopTech 309 Pad has very little squeal
The StopTech 309 Pad will handle up to 1200° of temperature with ZERO fade
The StopTech 309 Pad will handle up to 1400° of temperature with modest fade
All other street & autocross pads fade & lose braking force in the 700°-800° range
The StopTech 309 Pad utilizes modern "Adhesive Technology" where is lays a layer of pad material on the rotor surface to rub against.
A lot of other brake pads out there utilize "Abrasive Technology" & wear against the rotor ... eating it up.
The StopTech 309 Pads do NOT eat up your rotors
The StopTech 309 Pads retail for $120 front & $65 rear = Only $185 total
The StopTech 309 Pads last like street pads, not race pads
The StopTech 309 Pad is only a part of the magic. The large piston area, allowed by the rigid calipers combine with these pads to create the awesome braking force & characteristics
When we run these pads in smaller piston area brake systems, we achieve some of the benefits, but not the total braking force.


Depending on application, we sell the Wilwood Aerolite 6 front brake packages for $1819 to 1899. (Same as Jegs & Summit)
My StopTech front packages run $3295 to $3495, depending on whether the application needs hubs or not.

I didn't list the front hub features above, because some brake packages (like the C5/C6, Speedtech ATS, DSE, Roadster Shop, AME & others utilizing the C5/C6 mounting) don't need hubs. I’ll do that in a separate post.

Continued in the next post.

[Ron Sutton]

I didn't list the front hub features in the previous post, because some brake packages (like the C5/C6, Speedtech ATS, DSE, Roadster Shop, AME & others utilizing the C5/C6 mounting) don't need hubs. For cars with regular spindles that need hubs … read on …

The list of Features & Benefits from the Hubs is pretty impressive too:
6061 Billet Aluminum Hubs - CNC machined in USA to ultra precise tolerances
Much wider flange = Less wheel deflection under cornering loads
Bigger radius behind the flange = Less wheel deflection under cornering loads
ARP 3" long x 1/2"-NF (8740 Chromoly) Wheel Studs standard
Timken Bearings & Races - No Chinese junk
"Slip Fit" seal design, allows you to remove & replace the seals without tearing them up
Seals are held in by 3 flange retaining screws (Just like pro race hubs)
No Stamped Steel Dust Caps to hammer on or pry off!
Billet Aluminum Dust Caps utilize three screws for easy removal & replacement
Hubs & dust caps are hard anodized gloss black to look great for a long time
RSRT designed tab spindle nut washer (Stainless Steel)
Allows you to set near perfect bearing preload more accurately than the cotter key & castle nut method


We still need to discuss hub bearings. But first we should bring everyone up to speed on the wheel bearing issue.
I almost didn't design hubs & brake kits for several series of Muscle Cars from the 60's & early 70's ... as they came from the factory with tiny outer wheel/hub bearings rated under 1000# for thrust load. Most of you that know me, remember the online discussions we had about these weak, dangerous outer hub bearings a few years ago. I didn’t want to design brakes & hubs for spindle with bearings I knew would fail. Better brakes just adds to the loading.

Most GM, Ford & Mopar muscle cars from the 60’s & 70’s came with outer hub bearings rated at only 917# or 922# of thrust load. Fine ... back in the day ... when these cars came with G70-14 bias ply tires & the cars struggled to pull .8G. Today, with modern tires, suspensions & brakes, we're pulling 1.4G on autocross courses & 1.6-2.0G on road courses. Yes ... in Pro-Touring cars with 315/335 TW200 tires. The thrust loads on the hub bearings are up in the 1200#-1500# range.

Here is a list of cars/spindles/hubs & their outer bearings with thrust load ratings for you to ponder:

Ford/Mercury:
Fairlane 1966-1969 V8 Drum & All Disc Spindles use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
Falcon/Comet 1963-1969 V8 Drum & All Disc Spindles use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
Granada 1975-1982 uses LM12749 Bearing rated at 921#
Mustang/Cougar 1964-1969 V8 Drum & All Disc Spindles use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
Mustang BOSS 1969 spindles use M12649 Bearing rated at 1130#
Mustang GT350 & GT500 1970 Spindles use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
Mustang II 1974-1978 uses LM12749 Bearing rated at 921#
Pinto 1971-1980 uses LM12749 Bearing rated at 921#
Ranchero 1965-1969 V8 Drum & All Disc Spindles use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
Torino/Cyclone/Montego 1967-1696 Spindles use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#


GM
A-Body (Chevelle/GTO/442/Skylark) 1964-1972 use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
A-Body (Monte Carlo/Gran Prix) 1970-1972 use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
A-Body (Monte Carlo/Gran Prix/Cutlass/Etc) 1973-1977 use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
B-Body (Impala & GM Sisters) 1971-1976 use M12649 Bearing rated at 1130#
B-Body (Impala & GM Sisters) 1977-1989 use M12649 Bearing rated at 1130#
Chevy II & Nova 1962-1967 use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
C5 Corvette 1997-2004 uses a Sealed Hub & Bearing rated at 1080#
C6 Corvette 2005-2013 uses a Sealed Hub & Bearing at 1080#
C6 Corvette 2008-2013 ZR1-Z06-GS uses a Sealed Hub & Bearing rated at 1515#
C7 Corvette 2014-Present ALL uses a Sealed Hub & Bearing at 1515#
C10 Pickup (Chevy & GMC) 1962-1970 use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
C10 Pickup (Chevy & GMC) 1971-1976 use M12649 Bearing rated at 1130#
C10 Pickup (Chevy & GMC) 1977-1976 use M12649 Bearing rated at 1130#
C10 Pickup (Chevy & GMC) 1981-1986 use M12649 Bearing rated at 1130#
F-Body (Camaro & Firebird) 1967-1969 use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
F-Body (Camaro & Firebird) 1970-1978 use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
F-Body (Camaro & Firebird) 1979-1981 use M12649 Bearing rated at 1130#
F-Body (Camaro & Firebird) 1982-1992 use LM12748/9 Bearing rated at 921#
F-Body (Z28, IROC-Z & Trans Am) 1988-1992 M12649 Bearing rated at 1130#
G-Body (Monte Carlo/Regal/Cutlass/Gran Prix) ‘79-‘81 use M12649 Bearing rated at 1130#
G-Body (Monte Carlo/Regal/Cutlass/Gran Prix) ‘82-‘88 use LM12748/9 Bearing rated at 921#
X-Body (Nova & GM Sisters) 1968-1974 use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
X-Body (Nova & GM Sisters) 1975-1978 use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
X-Body (Nova & GM Sisters) 1979 Only uses M12649 Bearing rated at 1130#


Mopar:
A-Body spindles & hubs use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#

Valiant/Lancer/ Barracuda/Duster/Scamp/Dart/Demon


B-Body spindles & hubs use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#

Savoy/Belvedere/Satellite/GTX/Road Runner/Fury/Polara/Charger/Coronet/Super Bee


E-Body spindles & hubs use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#

70-70 Cuda & Challenger

Aftermarket Spindles:
Allstar/Jegs/Summit/Etc G-Body & S10 Clone Spindles use M12649 or M12748
Art Morrison C6 Spindle uses Sealed Hub & Bearing rated unknown (Inquiry made)
Belltech S10 Dropped Spindles use M12649 or M12748 (Depending on Hub you Use)
Belltech C10 1981-1986 Dropped Spindles use M12649 Bearing rated at 1130#
DSE Spindle (C6 Clone) uses Sealed Hub & Bearing rated unknown (Inquiry made)
Magnum Force Mopar 2” Drop Spindles use LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
Mustang II/Pinto Clone and/or Dropped Spindles use LM12749 Bearing rated at 921#
Ridetech Dropped Spindle uses LM11949 Bearing rated at 917#
Ridetech Modular Spindle uses C7 Sealed Hub & Bearing rated at 1515#
Roadster Shop Spindle uses Z06 Sealed Hub & Bearing rated at 1515#
Ron Sutton Race Technology GT & GTR Spindles use #2687 Bearing rated at 1800#
Speedtech ATS Tall Spindle uses C7 Sealed Hub & Bearing rated at 1515#
Speedtech ATS ExtReme Spindle uses C7 Sealed Hub & Bearing rated at 1515#
Wilwood Mustang II Pro Spindle uses LM12749 Bearing rated at 921#
Wilwood C10 Pro Spindle uses Sealed Hub & Bearing rated unknown (Inquiry made)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, all the listings above in red, I was NOT going to create hubs & brake kits for … unless I could increase the outer hub bearing size & thrust load rating. We did. I worked with Timken bearing engineers & came up with solutions for almost all of them.

Here are the bearings I used, in each hub design for the applications we offer, or will offer our Triple Duty StopTech Brakes Optimized by RSRT.
A. All of the cars & spindles that come with LM12649 outer bearings … simply come with the best LM12649 bearing available … Timken. These are true 1130# thrust load rated, where a lot of off brands & imports do not meet that load rating, or simply don’t have their bearings tested.

B. All of the cars & spindles that come with LM12748/9 outer bearings thrust load rated at 921# … I designed new hubs that allow us to utilize the Timken LM12649 bearing, thrust load rated at 1130#. This increases their thrust load capacity by over 20%.

C. All of the cars & spindles that come with LM11949 Bearing rated at 917# … I designed new hubs that allow us to use the Timken #21075 bearing, thrust load rated at … ready … 2540#. That is not a typo. It is a commonly available Timken automotive bearing. It is bigger, beefier, handles more heat & has bigger rollers with more surface area. When it’s time, you can buy replacement bearings around $20 each. This increases the bearing’s thrust load capacity by over 275%.

D. All cars that utilize the C5/C6/C7 mounting, we simply suggest you utilize the stronger, higher rated C6 ZR1 or C7 hub & bearing versions.

Now a really cool part … my StopTech brake packages with these superior hubs, dust caps, reusable seal mounting, ARP ½” x 3” long studs & strong(er) Timken bearings ONLY add $200 to the cost of a front brake kit!

We do NOT sell these hubs separately (unless you need a replacement). If I did, they would cost $800-900 a pair. So when you’re shopping brakes, compare the big picture & I think you’ll find:

My StopTech brakes do cost more initially
They are a superior brake system on many levels
You won’t have to change brake pads going from street to autocross or track days
Your pads & rotors will last longer
Over time, this brake system will actually cost you less


See them HERE (http://www.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/catalog/?page=94) ... Call me at 844-722-3832 Ext 3 ... or Email me HERE ([email protected])
- Ron Sutton

Ron Sutton Race Technology
11374 Amalgam Way
Gold River, CA 95630
Website: RonSuttonRaceTechnology.com

[SSLance]

I just can't stop staring at them...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-BczT4db/0/e59ef6ad/X2/20170917_162304-X2.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-4gn7p9Q/0/512ed8f7/X2/20170917_162320-X2.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-3XzFnpH/0/42b6b410/X2/20170917_144837-X2.jpg

Rotors, calipers and spindles with steering arms reversed all fit beautifully...tons of room everywhere. The dropped adjustable centerlink would not clear the triangulation brace mounting pad and the tie rods ended up being about 2" too short because we flipped the steering arms out to get more ackerman. Longer tie rods are on the way and then I'll get the bumpsteer adjusted and head on to the rear brakes.

Huge thanks to "Ronstar" for being available for several calls along the way today. Just try to reach any other parts supplier or suspension specialist multiple times on a Sunday afternoon!!!

[glassman]

Holy Guacamole Ron. What a detailed answer (copy and paste lol). Seriously though, good stuff, thanx for your commitment to our community.

Lance, you move yet? i miss it?

[SSLance]

Lance, you move yet? i miss it?

No not yet, but time is running short. Gotta get this upgrade in before I loose my shop. New one won't be finished until March and I plan on racing all winter long!!!

[carbuff]

Ron,

A couple of questions:



Calipers with more rigidity & less flex than any other caliper available to our market*



What is the * asterisk for? I didn't catch it in the followon. And how is this test/proven? I'm sure you've told me before, but I don't recall...



Floating rotors = reduces or eliminates pad knockback



In looking at my rotors/hats, I don't see how the rotors 'float'. In reading StopTech's website, it seems they have a version of the Trophy kit which comes with the floating rotors, but that version doesn't have the piston dust seals. The kit with the seals doesn't have the floating rotors.

Obviously you can assemble these kits however you want I assume. But I cannot tell if/how to identify whether my rotors float? This would be a great feature to help stave off the purchase of a full floater on the rear of my car, although admittedly I haven't yet experienced a real problem with knock back that I'm aware of...

Thanx!

[carbuff]

Without copying/pasting all of the pictures in that hub post, man the specs on that hub are impressive! Presumably the stock spindle can handle the above which the hub should now be able to??? That's some serious forces...

[GrabberGT]

Ron,

A couple of questions:

In looking at my rotors/hats, I don't see how the rotors 'float'. In reading StopTech's website, it seems they have a version of the Trophy kit which comes with the floating rotors, but that version doesn't have the piston dust seals. The kit with the seals doesn't have the floating rotors.

Obviously you can assemble these kits however you want I assume. But I cannot tell if/how to identify whether my rotors float? This would be a great feature to help stave off the purchase of a full floater on the rear of my car, although admittedly I haven't yet experienced a real problem with knock back that I'm aware of...

Thanx!

I too am curious about the floating rotors.

[Ron Sutton]

Holy Guacamole Ron. What a detailed answer (copy and paste lol). Seriously though, good stuff, thanx for your commitment to our community.

Lance, you move yet? i miss it?

You're welcome.

An old friend of mine & I were having lunch one day and he gave me a odd compliment that was pretty accurate. He said, "Ron, I've known you for years. You never do anything half-ass. You always do stuff an ass & half." :rofl:

We were laughing our butt off. But it's true with my racing, family, life, etc. In this world, if a product on the market does what I want, I don't copy it. I just use it. But when I see the need for a better product, I put every improvement into it I can. I don't want the new product to be "a little bit better." I work on it until it is leaps & bounds above what was available. These brakes are that way. They're not "a little bit better" ... they are leaps & bounds better than any brake system available so far.

But me saying that won't mean much. As more people get them on Pro-Touring cars running street, AX & Track ... my claims will prove to be true ... and that will count for more.

:cheers:

[Ron Sutton]

Ron,

A couple of questions:

What is the * asterisk for? I didn't catch it in the follow on. And how is this test/proven? I'm sure you've told me before, but I don't recall...


In looking at my rotors/hats, I don't see how the rotors 'float'. In reading StopTech's website, it seems they have a version of the Trophy kit which comes with the floating rotors, but that version doesn't have the piston dust seals. The kit with the seals doesn't have the floating rotors.

Obviously you can assemble these kits however you want I assume. But I cannot tell if/how to identify whether my rotors float? This would be a great feature to help stave off the purchase of a full floater on the rear of my car, although admittedly I haven't yet experienced a real problem with knock back that I'm aware of...

Thanx!

Hey Bryan!

It's hard to believe as long as my detailed answer was that I left something out, but I did. I meant to add some text that explained the * asterisk, but forgot. Here goes ...

When I first came into the Pro-Touring world in late 2012, I was surprised at the brake problems that existed. People were buying & installing big brake kits on their Pro-Touring cars ... driving them on the street ... and running them in autocross & track day events ... with complaints of low braking force.

The people "solving" their low braking force problem were switching from street performance pads to full on race pads. I have seen a ton of them utilizing Hawk DTC-60 & DTC-70 racing pads. That's about as aggressive a race pad as you can run. There are better race pads, but not much higher CoF than a Hawk DTC-70 race pad.

But these high CoF race pads are horrible for street driven Pro-Touring cars.
* Race Pads cost 3 to 4 times as much
* Race Pads wear out 2 to 4 times quicker
* Race Pads dust up like mad
* Race Pads squeal like crazy
* A friend of mine says they couldn't sneak up on a Rock Concert. LOL
* And as a bonus, Race Pads eat up your rotors

As I looked at the challenge of a brake system to do all three, the problem with the brake packages on the market were obvious to me. None of the current systems had enough clamping force from caliper. The piston area in the caliper was too small. So their only solution was high CoF race pads.

While brake technology is complex, the concepts are simple. There are four things that make braking force.
1. Hydraulic pressure from the pedal & M/C (and booster if utilized)
2. Clamping force of the caliper from that pressure x piston area
3. Rotor size (Leverage)
4. Pad CoF (Coefficient of Friction of the pad material)

In 2012, the pro-Touring brake systems all came with small piston area. When I studied the calipers, it was clear we couldn't simply increase piston sizes, as the calipers offered were too small, too thin & too weak. What I'm saying is they lacked the structure integrity & rigidity to handle more clamping force without flexing. If you increase the hydraulic pressure to a caliper like this ... through higher pedal ratio or smaller master cylinder ... all it does is flex the caliper more. The same thing happens if we increase the piston sizes (piston area) in a weak caliper. It just flexes more, in a clam shell sort of way. When you do this, calculations on paper may show the braking force going up 20%, but the real world "measured" braking force increase may only be 2-5%. That loss is from the caliper flexing. Caliper rigidity is a big deal in a performance or racing brake system. That much caliper flex is dangerous & annoying. The pedal feels like mush. There are videos out there showing these calipers flexing like crazy when people increased the hydraulic pressure or piston area in weak calipers.

The solution sounds simple. We need calipers with larger piston area so we don't have to run high CoF race pads. But this would require a much stiffer front caliper to handle this larger piston area ... and not flex. I was excited when Wilwood introduced the Aerolite calipers. They were significantly more rigid than anything being offered at the time in 2014. I probably have 100 customers running that caliper with the increased piston area from 4.04" to 5.40". They work a lot better.

I still like that system today, but frankly I wanted something even better than that. So I set out to find the stiffest caliper I could ... to build my new brake systems around. I went to a private company with a brake dyno and did back-to-back tests of 5 brands of calipers, all with the same piston area, same pad compound, same rotor size & same hydraulic pressure.

The Test Results:
StopTech ST 60 Caliper / .010" Caliper Flex / 984# Braking Force
Brand X 6 Piston Caliper / .013" Caliper Flex / 972# Braking Force
Brand Y 6 Piston Caliper / .016" Caliper Flex / 965# Braking Force
Brand Y 6 Piston Caliper / .070" Caliper Flex / 922# Braking Force
Brand A 6 Piston Caliper / .105" Caliper Flex / 886# Braking Force

So I made a deal with Stoptech to co-design & manufacture a new line of cutting edge brake systems, specifically for Pro-Touring Muscle cars doing triple duty on the street, autocross & track days. The new systems did everything I wanted ... because we designed them to ... with one BIG bonus. Never in my wildest dreams did I think we could do all 3 with one pad. But the StopTech 309 performance pad ... which is only .40-.45 CoF ... had excellent cold bite for autocross (and street) and had zero brake fade up to 1200°. Frankly it has only a small brake fade at that point up to 1400°. It is an amazing pad. By itself, it doesn't have a high enough CoF for the small piston brake systems out there. But combined with the rigid ST60 front & ST40 rear calipers ... the braking force of 3460# is higher than Zr1 or C7 Corvette. Giddy Up !

This video is NOT my test. But this video shows a caliper flex test of the StopTech St60 versus a Brembo monoblock caliper.
Go here:
-bm5aW_tga4

-------------------------------------------------

Floating rotors?
The StopTech rotor mounting hardware is engineered with a conical washer made out of inconel ... the same material in high end exhaust valves. This inconel conical shaped washer acts like a temperature controlled spring. At low temps, driving around town or on the freeway, the washer is in its conical shape ... holding the rotor to the hat rigid. It's the same way at room temp when you're checking it in your garage. This is so the rotors do not rattle and make a lot of noise during street/freeway driving.

As the brakes get warmer, from usage on track, the washers actually flatten out ... allowing the rotor to float on the hat. :trophy-1302:
Road racers actually change the conical washers to flat washers, so they float all the time. But they don't care about the rattling noises the driver hears at low speeds.


:cheers:

[Ron Sutton]

Without copying/pasting all of the pictures in that hub post, man the specs on that hub are impressive! Presumably the stock spindle can handle the above which the hub should now be able to??? That's some serious forces...

No, I don't think so. I haven't run failure tests on OEM spindles. But I do not think old muscle car OEM spindles could handle 2540# of thrust load without failure. I'm pretty sure ... without running FEA analysis ... that the old OEM spindles would fail at those load levels. The snout would snap off the upright. But we're not seeing 2540# of thrust load on the front wheels. We're seeing 1200# to 1500#.

I have run flex tests on OEM spindles to see how much camber change was happening from spindle snout flex at higher G-loads. A typical GM spindle snout for a 64-72 A-Body, 67-69 F-Body or 64-74 X-Body flexes about .040-.045" at 1400# of load, which is about .5° of camber change. The Ridetech AFX dropped spindle flexes less, because it is a better spindle ... made out of better steel than the old OEM spindles. But in high loads around 1400# ... we see some flex in it as well. Just less. That is why Ridetech team cars utilized the Speedtech ExtReme spindle for awhile & then developed their own modular spindle that utilizes the C7 bearings.

The goal in upsizing the bearings is to handle the 1200# to 1500# thrust loads we're seeing ... to prevent bearing failure ... which can be catastrophic at speed on a road course. The 1130# bearing in some of our packages is "better" than the 917-921# bearings by 20% ... but still need to be monitored. The killer 2540# rated bearing we're utilizing in a lot of kits is overkill. I'd been fine with bearing rated at 1600#-1800#. But this 2540# rated Timken bearing is available through regular parts stores, so I went with it.

Hopefully that made some sense.

[Ron in SoCal]

You're welcome.

An old friend of mine & I were having lunch one day and he gave me a odd compliment that was pretty accurate. He said, "Ron, I've known you for years. You never do anything half-ass. You always do stuff an ass & half." :rofl:




Ass and half. Got it. :idea:

:lmao:

:cheers:

[carbuff]

Ron,

Thanx for the great answers! (as always ;) ).

[SSLance]

Front is done except bleeding and stuffing some grease in some zerks.

On to the rears in the morning...

Y'all are probably tired of pics of them by now so I'll just save them for myself. :D

[GregWeld]

:ttiwop: :ttiwop: :ttiwop:

[FETorino]

:ttiwop: :ttiwop: :ttiwop:

Pretty much. :stirthepot:

[SSLance]

The main part of the difficulty of this brake swap was the swapping of the spindles to a spindle that would take the brake package. We had the front end geometry pretty dang good with the stock metric spindle but in order to bolt these fabulous Stoptech brakes on, a spindle change was necessary. Because of a tight time frame for install, I told Ron I needed a spindle with the least amount of changes necessary to get the geometry back to or better than I had before, he chose the ATS tall.

Basically the ATS is a 1" drop spindle that is also 1" taller than the G body spindle. To compensate for the 1" drop, Ron had me change my tall lower ball joints for ones 1" shorter.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-xWKmrZ8/0/991d8fb6/XL/20170917_110129-XL.jpg

This was not only super simple, but also put the lower control arms in exactly the same spot as before so I didn't have to adjust ride height after the swap. I'm sure he'll say it was for geometry reasons but whatever. :D

So the spindle is in, ride height same as it was before, now it was time to work on the steering. The ATS comes with a modular steering arm that is curved as it extends away from the spindle. Instructions say to mount it with the curve pointed toward the center of the car. Ron told me to swap them and mount it with the curve pointed out to increase the ackerman. Ron also sent me a new slug adjustable center link and all new rod ends and curved tie rods to try to optimize the steering geometry. Unfortunately, my crossmember has a nub sticking out to attach the triangulation brace to which was in the way of the new centerlink.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-Ws3px3R/0/4359a3ce/XL/20170917_130945-XL.jpg

With the steering arms pointed out, that meant the tie rods needed to be about 2" longer...fortunately the bump steer kit I had before was able to extend the tie rods out far enough to reach. Everything clears with no interference anywhere and I was able to dial the bump steer back to close to previous specs very easily.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-RMGcK3L/0/0bdec281/XL/20170918_151359-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-4bqcZk6/0/a99f8e0e/XL/20170918_151315-XL.jpg

eJhu8QOZvUU

Where I pause the lift is pretty close to ride height. From ride height to full bump it toes out about 3/16" and from ride height up it toes in just a touch if at all. Check out that camber gain though!!

In the interest of time once again, I called this good enough and moved forward with the rest of brake install. I'll revisit fine tuning the alignment specs when I have more time.

So spindles and steering locked in, time to install the calipers. Pretty straight forward here but couple of things I found interesting.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-F3W9PqC/0/dc522b71/XL/20170918_203711-XL.jpg

See that top left piston sticking out? I'm assuming it has a knock back spring behind it because when you push it in, it immediately starts to spring back out again. This made installing the brake pads interesting for sure. I finally figured out that a putty knife is a pretty good tool to use to hold the piston in while sliding the pads in place.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-w3Xv5T8/0/386ff157/XL/20170918_204238-XL.jpg

Here is the bridge reinstalled.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-8GZ8gB8/0/4bd7a831/XL/20170918_204540-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-dGMpBtJ/0/4177f576/XL/20170918_204550-XL.jpg

One more thing, I had some questions about how much unsprung weight these huge rotors and calipers added...so I weighed the G-body spindle, caliper and rotor.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-2Z6mm6n/0/0cc511d5/XL/20170918_125931-XL.jpg

Then weighed the new Stopech 14" rotor, 6 piston ST60 caliper and ATS Spindle.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-5RMnsJG/0/f55cf061/XL/20170918_130212-XL.jpg

Virtually the exact same weight! All the added brake force with no added weight. Woot!!

Front is done except bleeding and greasing, I'm starting on the rear today. Wish me luck with the calipers fitting inside the frame rails. Today will either go pretty smooth, or stop in a hurry based on that.

[SSLance]

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-S365nTj/0/4f567e0d/XL/20170919_120925-XL.jpg

[GregWeld]

Laughing about fighting the knockback spring...... I have the Griggs Racing rear calipers on the 2007 Mustang.... They have these springs as well.... I ended up having to buy a tool to hold them back - and the only way that worked was to remove the caliper from the rotor - slide the pads in - and then use the tool to jack them both back as far as they'd go.... then with tool in place - slide the business back over the rotor.

I have the StopTechs up front on that car - but nobody makes a rear except for Griggs, for this one year (2007) only rear end.

[SSLance]

I might be interested in said tool Greg, I can imagine this might even be more difficult once brake fluid gets in the caliper also. Link to it?

The rears are pretty much mocked in place. Still trying to decide what to do with the flex lines before I button everything up. While the pic I posted above shows a bunch of room between the caliper and frame rail, I forgot that the brake line comes out of that side of the caliper.

I think the lines i have will work for now but to really be neat and tidy a shorter line with a straight banjo instead of an angled banjo fitting might be a better choice.

First off, lets talk about the backing plate Ron designed and how slick it is. Putting a brake backing plate on a 9" with Torino axle housing ends can be difficult. I've had the fight many times with my Ford Explorer brake kit which is similar in design in some ways...but then way different in other ways. The axle bearing is pressed onto the axle and whatever you use as a plate has to also double as the retainer that holds that bearing in the axle end. Ron designed this plate to be two piece so you can take it apart, place it over the axle behind the bearing then put it back together again. SO slick!!

You then reassemble the e-brake setup on the front side of the plate with the axle on the bench and it's ready to slide into place all in one piece.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-2cXHs8V/0/bdfdff69/X2/20170919_145524-X2.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-tDp32B6/0/7faf5d53/X2/20170919_150813-X2.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-rtn8b3f/0/a7ab6a92/X2/20170919_150701-X2.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-5jFk8W5/0/22fd7557/X2/20170919_150705-X2.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-9HQNGF5/0/caa0c275/X2/20170919_151233-X2.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-XvqX6Kd/0/9cc1a589/X2/20170919_151248-X2.jpg

The next battle with this setup is getting wrenches onto the e-brake cable ends to tight the cable housing to the bracket. This setup makes it super easy to just rotate the whole backing plate one hole around getting the bracket from out behind the shock brackets so you can get a wrench on it.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-zSgRqTB/0/d6972796/X2/20170919_152338-X2.jpg

Just one nut on a Tee bolt holds this all in place while you tighten the locknut on the cable end. Then just loosen that nut again and roll the plate back into place.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-w2nR4nc/0/03ba3ed5/X2/20170919_152910-X2.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-L74kgrd/0/48f6f26e/X2/20170919_152914-X2.jpg

Here's the caliper in place...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-gfWrGGz/0/d52cb8c4/X2/20170919_155135-X2.jpg

Think I'll end up moving the caliper down one more hole to the bottom ones just to take up some of the slack in the flex line and give me a comfort zone between the banjo fitting and frame. It pretty sweet looking though, isn't it?

Hope to button it all up tomorrow... If all goes well, I may even get to race it in Topeka on Saturday.

[GregWeld]

I bought this one --- one handed operation -- works just exactly like I needed it to.


https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-29100-Quick-Quad-Spreader/dp/B005GLQCKA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505865899&sr=8-1&keywords=lisle+quick+brake+pad+spreader

[SSLance]

Perfect!! Thanks...

[SSLance]

Hello...Bueller Bueller... Is this thing on? :D

[carbuff]

Nice job, looks great! Can't wait to hear how they perform for you...

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Great set up Lance!! Can't wait to hear the results!

[SSLance]

Nightly update...

I hate brake line leaks...

That is all...

[FETorino]

:bang: Nightly update...

I hate brake line leaks...

That is all...

:bang: Aren't cars fun. :bang: :lmao:

[SSLance]

My hard lines on rear axle had the short fittings on end to flex lines. The unions with the brake kit have deep females ends on them and the fittings wont go far enough into union to seal.

So yes, I get to make new hard lines today.... Yay!!!

[SSLance]

No leaks!

Brake calipers centered on rotors and bled...just about to go test drive!!

[Tinker]

And then......?
So did you slam your face into the steering wheel the first hit of the brakes?:thumbsup:

[JKnight]

That's a sweet setup Lance. Now that I see all the angles it makes sense they're so rigid. #Racecar

[SSLance]

It rolls once again...


https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-5T6ZRNt/0/9bab9306/X4/20170921_154147-X4.jpg

[WSSix]

Very nice, Lance. I'm glad everything went fairly smoothly for you. Those front brake really fill in the wheel.

[SSLance]

This upgrade was a LONG time coming. I've been racing this car in earnest for over 5 years and have needed a brake upgrade for at least the last 4 years. I knew of several options that were fairly bolt-onish but at the same time they only offered a moderate upgrade over what I had...I wanted more. I wanted to only do this once and to do it right.

When I found out about the Stoptech Big Brake Kit Ron Sutton was developing and especially when I held the ST60 calipers in my hand about this time last year at SEMA, I knew that was the direction I wanted to go. All one has to do is to search for "brakes not stopping good" threads on any PT forum and you will see so many people not happy with their big brake upgrade kit's performance. I wanted to avoid that completely. If I was going to go thru the trouble to redo the whole front geometry to put a big brake kit on, I wanted it to be right the first time.

During the bed in process of the pads the first time out of the garage, performance was confirmed! The brakes are night and day different over what I had before and frankly, as good as any other car I've driven both on course and street.

Even though this system was designed for a manual setup, I am using the factory G-body power booster master cylinder (for now). I can rest my heel on the floor and with just my toes on the brake pedal bring this car to an immediate stop with just moderate pressure and pedal throw. Locking the brakes up is NOT an issue either. :D It will take some getting used to for sure and I have a little bit of prop valve adjusting to do to dial in the rear brake bias...but I'm confident they would work great on course or on track right now as they sit. We may at some point in the future play with a different size power master cylinder or even a manual master cylinder but for now, they work just fine.

Unfortunately they won't be debuting in Topeka this weekend. My carb flooding issue is still present so it is coming off today and being sent off to remedy or replace. This saddens me but at the same time I'm super happy to have completed this total brake upgrade in a little less than 5 days total. That speaks to the quality of this package Ron put together and the fantastic set of parts it includes. This was my first attempt at a Big Brake install and while I learned some things along the way...for the most part it was pretty much plug n play both front and rear.

Thanks to Ron for all the help...and for developing the BEST Big Brake Kit on the market today.

[SSLance]

Just a bit more "seat of the pants" first impressions of the new brakes...

With the old brakes, after we put the oversize metric calipers on several years ago, the pedal throw became fairly long. We attributed it to the increased fluid the larger pistons needed to move. With the engine off, you would press the brake pedal until it firmed up (quite a ways down really) then you could press even harder on it and get the pedal to go further down...almost to the floor.

After I vacuum bled all 8 bleeders on the 4 new calipers, I hopped in the seat and immediately felt a much firmer pedal with a surprisingly much shorter throw. I then put the wife in the seat to be the pedal pusher and hoisted her up in the air. I have to say, these calipers are SO much easier to bleed than OEM style calipers. With the bleeders pointing straight up, you put a clear tube over the bleeder, point it straight up then over to catch can, have your pedal pusher pump the pedal, crack the bleeder and you can feel immediately if any air in there and as it releases. With fluid in the tube over the bleeder, it's very easy to close it again without letting any air back in.

Once done with this I hopped back in the seat and pressed the pedal...it was even firmer still but the best part was...once the pedal firmed up, it didn't move ANY further down at all, well maybe just a bit...but that was probably firewall flex. I'm not kidding, I could tell a huge difference in pedal feel after the pads made pressure on the rotors over what I had before. Being a hard line hydraulic system, this can only be the result of two things firming up...the 4 flex lines and the calipers themselves.

The flex lines that came off of the care consisted of braided steel fronts about 5 years old I guess and rubber rears about the same age. Remember though, I had the prop valve on the rears just about closed with the old setup.

Anyway, there is no flex now, when the brakes hit...they hit. Can't wait to play more with them and dial in the bias. More importantly...can't wait to test them out on a course at speed.

[SSLance]

It's been a busy month or so since my last update. I got the brakes bled and bedded in then had to send the carb out for repair. I got it back with about a day to get it installed then left on a two week trip to New Mexico and Arizona...just getting back to KC Friday. Today was kind of a rest up day, so I found some time to drive Barney around a bit and tune on the new shocks and try to find out how bad a new tire rub is.

The spindle\brake upgrade moved my front wheels out about a half inch each and the outside edge of my right front tire is rubbing the plastic inner fender top under hard compression. Before the tire just tucked inside a ridge and now it just kisses it. After many trips around the neighborhood with different shock settings and the GoPro pointed at the top of the tire...I think it has clearanced itself. :D

Regardless, I had fun driving it around and I can't wait to race it here at the Kansas City Region SCCA final race of the season next Sunday and my final race here before I move West. Brand new shocks, brand new brakes and new tires should make for a fun day of race tuning... I'll report back post race to let everyone know how it all went.

[GregWeld]

Yay!!


Ah the old tire rub.... I get it once in awhile on Old Yeller.... we squeezed as much tire in there as we could -- put it on a wider rim -- and blah blah blah... it just barely kisses the outer right rear if I'm really leaning on it. LOL


Glad she's all back together!

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Good luck at the races, hopefully you see some improvement right off or at least have an opportunity to dial things in for next season. Looking forward to hearing how it went.

[FETorino]

Kansas City SCCA. What kind of race? Good luck, I'm sure the changes will net some noticable improvements.

[SSLance]

It's our last autocross of the season...200 drivers registered. Called Halloweenie, people costume up their cars and all profits from event are given to a local charity called Go Baby Go.

Always a good time with just a little bit of racing mixrd in.

[Ron in SoCal]

Brand new shocks, brand new brakes and new tires should make for a fun day of race tuning... I'll report back post race to let everyone know how it all went.

You'll have a ball! :military:

[SSLance]

Weather Forecast for this Sunday... 49 degrees for a high...

Tell me again why I'm still in KC... lol

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Because mid summer forecast for the western desert states- 120+ degrees.

"But it's a dry heat."

Yeah, dry heat, like a turkey in the oven at Thanksgiving dry heat. lol!

I think we should all just move to Hawaii.

[dontlifttoshift]

Chicago Regions last autocross is Saturday and Sunday. 43 for a high both days and 50/50 chance for rain.....YaY...... having a co driver pays off in this weather.

[SSLance]

A chance for rain at 43 degrees would make me re-think things I'm pretty sure... :D

[SSLance]

Cleaned up and ready to race...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-P5qVBGs/0/0e681cf7/XL/20171026_140025-XL.jpg

[Tinker]

Looking good, Lance

Good luck this weekend. I think next weeks forecast is going to be a permanent grin!:excited:

[SSLance]

Had a great day at the track yesterday. Went out on a completely untested setup with new brakes, new shocks and new steering geometry and the car was balanced and driveable right away. the only thing I tuned on during my 4 runs was rear brake bias, started out with too much, took WAY too much out then slowly put it back in after each of the last 2 runs finally getting it pretty close.

Times were good enough for 13th in PAX out of 175 drivers, 15th in overall raw time. I was VERY pleased. The carb issues seem to be taken care of as well (thanks Bob).

Here's the video of my fastest run, what a fun course!! We ran this EXACT same course at this event last year and my times were about 1 full second faster this year over last. That tells me that both the car and the driver just keep getting better.

ynpEJdkNr-s

Great picture captured exiting the final corner on the final run of the day...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-gN77fhs/0/ad24b83a/O/22852100_1907970642550999_493638432178035761_n.jpg

Here are the PAX results

https://kcrscca.org/results/solo/2017/2017event12_pax.htm

The RAW time results

https://kcrscca.org/results/solo/2017/2017event12_raw.htm

And the final class results.

https://kcrscca.org/results/solo/2017/2017event12_fin.htm#camc

Ended up 6 tenths off of Keith in his National Championship winning 2011 Camaro on 335s square with my 32 year old G body on 275s... Pretty dang happy with that.

Now it's off to Phoenix in a week or so to start a new chapter of life. Can't wait to get my feet wet in a new racing environment. Hope to fly back in and co-drive with my KC racing friends whenever I can though, gonna miss the racing camaraderie we've developed here over the years. Also hope they'll come out to the PHX and co-drive Barney with me out there when they are down for the season here.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Two thumbs up! So if it's about where it was out of the box is there more in it now to tap into with the new parts?

[SSLance]

Two thumbs up! So if it's about where it was out of the box is there more in it now to tap into with the new parts?

The car is pretty good, doesn't seem like it needs much more tuning right now.

The driver on the other hand...needs to learn how to be even faster on the new setup. Watching the videos back I found several places I could have carried way more speed with it.

[gofastwclass]

Nice job.

Do you record all your runs for future review? I missed it, why are you moving to Phoenix?

[SSLance]

Nice job.

Do you record all your runs for future review? I missed it, why are you moving to Phoenix?

Thanks! Yep, I record them all...mainly for driver development reasons.

Regarding PHX, have you stepped outside lately? ��]

[gofastwclass]

Thanks! Yep, I record them all...mainly for driver development reasons.

Regarding PHX, have you stepped outside lately? ��]

I figured as much, very good idea. :)


Regretfully, yes I have and I completely understand. Last weekend was especially brutal for no reason. :(

I have a friend who moved to northern Florida last year with the exact same thought. The concept of moving from here crossed my mind several times last week and several times last winter. The hardest part is I have a lot of cars, related parts and tools to move... but with proper planning it can be done. The older I get the less I like cold so it's going to happen, just when...

[SSLance]

As much as I like my new big Stoptech brakes (and trust me, I LIKE them a lot...) I think I'm more happy about the steering geometry changes... I'll try to describe to you how it changed after adding the new ATS spindles and reversed steering arms, but I'm not sure I can do it justice.

I see autocross cars on course all the time with a ton of static camber dialed in to help the outside front tire grip in corners, but at the same time...you look at the inside front tire in a turn and maybe 1/4 or sometimes even less of that tire's contact patch is on the ground. The owners or drivers will say "Well, the inside front tire isn't doing anything anyway, so what does it matter?"

If the inside front tire grip in a turn doesn't matter, how can doing something as simple as adding Ackerman make such a dramatic change in the way my car turns?

Every car that is setup to turn should already be optimized to get 100% of the possible grip from the outside front tire...that is a given. After that, the only way to get even more front grip is to help the inside front tire. After this latest change to my car, I can tell you that when you do, you WILL feel it!! I first noticed the difference when I went to my testing track (large cloverleaf interchange with 25 mph long sweeping corners). Mid corner, steady speed about 85 mph, I could put just a little bit of steering wheel into it and the front would turn and almost simultaneously the back would step out just a tad and the whole car stayed perfectly stable. You could feel the inside front just digging in every little bit of wheel you put into it. My eyes opened right up...it was that much different.

The only real change to the steering geometry after adding the spindles was the addition of a bunch of Ackerman. I'm not sure how much I added, heck...I set the toe alignment with a tape measure and didn't touch anything else on the control arms after the install. I know this though, I almost didn't have enough tie rod length in the adjusters after flipping the steering arms around. The ride height ended up exactly the same, travel the same, maybe a bit more camber gain at full compression, everything basically the same except the added Ackerman. We accomplished this by putting the driver side steering arm on the passenger side and visa versa, this made the steering arm curve to the outside instead of the center of the car increasing the amount the inside front tire turns in relation to the outside front tire.

I autocrossed the car with the local SCCA Region for the first time last Sunday. We had a super fast course with two LARGE and fast braking zones. One had a sharp 180 degree turn at the end, the next had a hard 90 degree turn right...then the whole back stretch was a long wide spread out slalom...all perfect to test a car out on. The only knob I adjusted on all day was brake bias, way too much rear brake early, then not enough so I kept putting it back in a little at a time.

What I found though is I could carry WAY more speed into just about any corner, and when I turned the wheel, it just turned and stuck. I got to where at the end of the second straight I'd brake early...then let off the brake and just carry max speed into the hard right. It stuck EVERY time and the Ackerman helped turn in tremendously. In just 4 runs, I never did find the limit in front grip...there is so much more there...it will take the driver more time to get used to all the new found grip.

Results showed I finished 6 tenths off of Keith Lamming and 5 tenths off of Patrick Darling on a 45-46 second course. Not too bad at all considering they are accomplished drivers on 335s and 315s and I'm on my puny little 275s and in a heavy car with 57% of the weight on the nose. Just goes to show, a properly setup car can be fast...even without being perfectly balanced front to rear. Setting your car up to get as much grip from the inside front tire as possible is just another tool to have in your bag of tricks.

[Che70velle]

Lance, as always, thanks for bringing your experience to us. It takes a lot of time and work to post this stuff, and it’s appreciated. Glad to see your car working so well, and your having a blast doing it!

[gofastwclass]

That is fantastic to hear Lance. Thanks for the update and sharing your experience.

[WSSix]

That's awesome, Lance. Glad the steering changes really helped the car.

Regarding Kansas; can't say I blame you for wanting to leave the weather behind. I spent nearly three years in Liberal and that was enough. Too much wind for me. My head would be covered with a skull cap continuously for the whole winter except for sleeping and showering. I did enjoy the low humidity western Kansas has to offer though.

When do you finally make the move?

[Ron in SoCal]

Good advice, parts and install? Yep.

Set up close out of the box? Yep.

Driver getting it done? No doubt.

[SSLance]

When do you finally make the move?

Nov 10th is the pull out date...





Good advice, parts and install? Yep.

Set up close out of the box? Yep.

Driver getting it done? No doubt.

Thanks Ron... Hope you are sufficiently caffeinated and have your thinking cap on ready for a day full of learnin'

[SSLance]

Lance, as always, thanks for bringing your experience to us. It takes a lot of time and work to post this stuff, and it’s appreciated. Glad to see your car working so well, and your having a blast doing it!

No problem, just trying to pay back for all that has been shared with me. And yes, it is a BLAST to drive!!


That is fantastic to hear Lance. Thanks for the update and sharing your experience.

Wish you could have made it out to see it run in person...now you'll just have to look us up next time you are in Phoenix... :)

[gofastwclass]

Wish you could have made it out to see it run in person...now you'll just have to look us up next time you are in Phoenix... :)

Well shucks...

The other half and I love to travel and she also loves cars. I wonder if I can convince her to go to a race? Hmmm... :)

[SSLance]

Some of the Phoenix car friends I've met so far want to meet Barney in person, so I'm devising a plan to drag him out of storage next weekend. It's not exactly easy as I'm very limited in parking spaces both where we are living and at the storage units...but I think I've got it worked out.

Might even try to make it up to the car show at 67th and Bell Sat evening if any Phoenix locals want to meet up there. Can't wait to drive around a bit and see how Barney likes Arizona asphalt... :D

[GregWeld]

Some of the Phoenix car friends I've met so far want to meet Barney in person, so I'm devising a plan to drag him out of storage next weekend. It's not exactly easy as I'm very limited in parking spaces both where we are living and at the storage units...but I think I've got it worked out.

Might even try to make it up to the car show at 67th and Bell Sat evening if any Phoenix locals want to meet up there. Can't wait to drive around a bit and see how Barney likes Arizona asphalt... :D



Call Charley and store it at his new place......

[SSLance]

Call Charley and store it at his new place......

Post his number up and I'll give him a shout!! :D

I seriously need a place to put either a open car trailer, Barney or both...for 3 months or so. Right now I have Barney on the trailer in a storage unit and it makes doing anything with the car a bit of a hassle.

[SSLance]

I drove Barney out to my first Arizona Region SCCA Autocross last Sunday and had a blast. AZR runs a tight ship, had us hoping from the time we got there til we left about 2:30 pm. Mike Hitt came up and co-drove Barney with me, he did great considering he'd never even rode in the car before Sunday morning. That is a testament to a Ron Sutton setup, balanced and friendly enough that anyone can get in one and go fast with it right away.

Still getting used to the awesome Stoptech brakes and the new RSRT valved Ridetech shocks. I'm figuring out I can brake earlier and then get off the brakes before corner entry and the new Secret Sauce shocks will keep the front pinned down yet being off the brakes lets me carry WAY more speed into and thru the corner. There is more in it still, will just take time to learn to trust it'll stick.

Here was my best run of the day.

bMMQfXpoxsE

and here was Mike's best run of the day.

ZOIGDJLuxB8

I finished a tenth off of Tommy Tomerdale in CAM T and Mike was right behind me. Tommy has an awesome 67 camaro with an LS6 and C5 front and rear suspension under it all on 315s. I'm pretty happy with how we did.

You can sort these by fast time and PAX...

http://www.azsolo.com/backup/index.php/events-info/results

Anyway, had fun racing in December...can't wait to do it again.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Awesome, glad it's working out well!

[SSLance]

Not exactly the working conditions we are used to...but not too bad either considering it is 75 degrees outside these days.

New springs going in the front preparing for a race this weekend with Arizona Region SCCA.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-fnpm4P3/0/1469c05e/XL/20180108_124234-XL.jpg

[gofastwclass]

...but not too bad either considering it is 75 degrees outside these days.

I hate you right now... Just kidding. I don't hate you, but I am seriously looking into moving.


Are you going to have a shop at the new house?

[GregWeld]

Nice chair......

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Nice! How soon till your garage is built? Not long and it'll likely be an oven in that storage unit.

Spring brand change or just a new spring rate?

[SSLance]

Nice chair......

That chair is toast... Not sure how it survived the cleanse before the move...

[SSLance]

Are you going to have a shop at the new house?

https://photos.smugmug.com/Vista-Montana/n-r3dCrk/i-ZRZVv56/0/aeee0089/XL/i-ZRZVv56-XL.jpg

Another two months or so...




Spring brand change or just a new spring rate?

Just a new rate, going a bit stiffer to slow the travel down.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Moving right along and lookin' good.

Good luck with the new set up!

[gofastwclass]

Nice place Lance! Congratulations! :D

Now I really need to move!!!

[SSLance]

This is why I waited so long to upgrade the brakes on Barney, because I knew a spindle change was the only way to do that part right...but the spindle change was going to change the front end geometry that Ron and I spent so much time refining years ago.

The spindle pin height of the new ATS spindles was very close to the same as the original metric spindles they replaced after swapping the lower ball joint shorter pin in so I left all of the alignment adjustments as they were when installing new spindles. Handling both on the street and the track was awesome right away, these spindles gain camber faster and the result was even more turn in grip than before. They also push the wheel out 0.25" increasing track width by a half inch, also good for handling...but with the increased camber gain plus the track width, the outside edge of the front tire tread began to have significant contact with the inner fender in compression. The steering arm is also different which is great for additional Ackerman, but at full compression the tie rods were contacting the frame.

This is where putting race car geometry on a street car gets complicated...packaging. I am the only one that I am aware of that is putting this kind of tech onto a stock chassis G Body so sometimes it is trial and error until we get everything to play nice together.

Ron Sutton and I decided we'd try a stiffer front spring to keep the front from traveling so much, 600s to 700s. While I was making this change, I also raised the front ride height about a half inch higher than we had run it successfully before. More on this in a bit...

Thanks to coil overs these were both pretty simple changes to make in my storage unit garage. I did however have to run it to an alignment shop after to clean up after the adjustments. The shop was busy and I was short on time so we got the camber and caster set right where it was before then set the toe. The toe change was significant enough due to the ride height increase that it took the camber and caster settings out of our preferred range...but we didn't have time to redo it all once again.

Two days later I raced the car with Arizona SCCA Region on a fast wide open course with several fast slalom sections included. As I hit the first slalom section, I knew something was wrong right away. The car wouldn't turn in at all, just slid the front tires. This is something I haven't had happen since Stage 1 back in 2013. After braking for a normal autocross turn, the front was awesome...the whole balance was awesome. A bit tighter than before but very neutral. Basically the contact patch was great with the front compressed but when weight wasn't on the nose in a slalom not so much.

I made some shock adjustments and driving adjustments and got thru the day okay. The front is still traveling enough at extremes for the tire to just kiss the inner fender, not really an issue but close enough that if we lowered the car anymore, it would become an issue again. Our choice now to further refine the setup seems to be to either adjust the camber and caster at the current ride height back into our spec window or to lower the front some again, add bumps stops to keep tire off fender and tune alignment settings. I'll have to wait for Ron to finish moving his shop and get caught up again before making that decision. I'm good either way as I know where we want to be...I'm just not sure on the best path to get there.

This is where it's great to have a man like Sutton to help when venturing where no man has gone before... :D

Here is a pic of the current ride height...not quite 4x4 territory high but not slammed either.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-8mvMZ3t/0/bf404a28/XL/20180113_094937-XL.jpg

This is where it was before

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-P5qVBGs/0/0e681cf7/XL/20171026_140025-XL.jpg

It is between 1/2 and 3/4s of an inch higher...wild how that little of a change can affect so much.

Here's a video of a couple of my runs from Saturday. Not too exciting but maybe a bit of a reward for those that read this far down... :D


liHCf7bSW78

[WSSix]

The house is coming along nicely, Lance. Enjoy the new life in AZ

[GregWeld]

Yeah -- he's got to hurry up or I'm going to be moving in to my new one before he does!!!

[SSLance]

Thanks Trey...we got inside paint a few days ago.

Greg...you gotta find one first...not as easy as it sounds!!!

[WSSix]

New home? You tired of the cold in Idaho already, Greg? Or are you buying a second in a warmer climate?

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Great info Lance!

We've sold quite a few sets of G-body ATS spindles but for whatever reason they're not super public with their builds or seen at events as much. I think by far you've put more time than any G-body owner that I know of in sorting things out and it surely keeps the rest of us pushing forward. ATS spindles have been on my wish list too and hearing your feedback only makes me want them more.

Good luck with sorting the alignment, I look forward to more updates!

[SSLance]

Well, Dr Ron has spoken... We had a chance to catch up the other day after he reviewed all of the detailed post race data I sent him.

Basically we made a front spring rate adjustment to (1) try to help keep the front tires off the fenders and (2) work on a loose condition post apex.

Those of you that were lucky enough to attend part 3 of his seminars knows that the majority of the track day tuning we learned about involved increasing or decreasing the amount of grip the inside rear tire has to adjust to conditions. This is assuming you have the rest of the geometry optimized of course which we did.

This spring rate change worked for #1 and helped #2 in braking turns but hurt slalom turns because the inside rear now had too much grip when not in pitch. I hate driving a car with a push, this was reiterated to me again at the last event.

The correct cure is multi-faceted...and will take me some time to implement. The good thing is I completely understand the whys and hows because I have a good teacher. This is just another part of the evolution of me as a driver and a tuner. 4 years ago when Ron and I started down this path, this would have been too much for me to comprehend, today though...I am ready for it.

#1 Mill 1/4" of hub of wheels to put them back where they were before the spindle change

#2 Put the 600# springs back in the front and put ride height in front back to where it was before to fix slalom turns

#3 Install bump stops in the front to limit travel to exactly where it is needed to fix balance in braking turns and use shims to tune these on race day.

#4 Ron thinks I have a little too much brake now and wants me to investigate MC sizing (or other options like manual MC or a driver mod).

Thankfully I'm pretty certain I have plenty of wheel hub material so taking 1/4" off of them shouldn't cause me any other issues. This will however correct the tire\fender contact issues the new spindles created and allow us to put the geometry back where it worked best. Difficult part of this is finding the time to dismount my pretty new rubber and then finding a machinist I trust here in the valley to love on the wheels a bit. This might not happen right away but I am aware it won't handle properly until this is done.

Meanwhile, I'll make whatever shock adjustments I can and lower the front ride height just a bit and race it next Saturday as is. With now understanding exactly what is going on maybe I can adjust the driver mod and get the most out of it I can until I can fix it properly.

[Tinker]

#3 Install bump stops in the front to limit travel to exactly where it is needed to fix balance in braking turns and use shims to tune these on race day.

Lance,
Are your front shocks the 4.2 inch travel shocks?
When I spoke with Ron about bump stops it sounded questionable whether I would have enough room for front travel and bump stops. I am running a f body not your g body, but this gives me hope that I can run them too.

[SSLance]

I'm pretty sure I use the 3.6" travel shocks up front. We had to rearrange some things to make enough room to get full travel from them.

[SSLance]

I'll do a more complete update later but here's a taste of some Barney action on a Good Guys course. Had a great time in Scottsdale this weekend, got to meet a lot of internet friends in person and even better, race against them head to head. Can't wait to do it again...

b57aQzC8zj0


Here are the Street Machine results

https://axwaresystems.com/axorm/liveresults.php?op=finalresults&eventid=12836&selectclubid=47&class=sm&number=403&ordercolby=totaltime

And overall raw time results...

https://axwaresystems.com/axorm/liveresults.php?op=finalresults&eventid=12836&selectclubid=47&ordercolby=rawtime

[gofastwclass]

Did you rob a bank before your run? You came out of the last turn like the cops were on your tail. Hahaha!

Nice job Lance.

[Sieg]

Shades of Danny Popp there :secret: :D

[SSLance]

It was my first time performing in front of a grandstand full of people... :D

My back tires took a beating this weekend for sure.

[SSLance]

I was just happy that there wasn't too much of this going on... :D


https://photos.smugmug.com/2018-Good-Guys-Spring-Nationals/i-SN7BLkp/0/79ac1734/X2/DSC_0046-X2.jpg

[Sieg]

I was just happy that there wasn't too much of this going on... :D

Was that Adrienne's fault, or should I say due to her presence? :D

[SSLance]

She wasn't in the car on that run, so not her fault! :D

Here she is doing her best impersonation of ballast though.

https://photos.smugmug.com/2018-Good-Guys-Spring-Nationals/i-QGv5MFh/0/ebc578e7/X2/DSC_0761-X2.jpg

[SSLance]

Also a video of her ride along.

It was so cool for Weld to stop by, mainly because he brought her with him! :D

QDXgKASb2Io

[Sieg]

She's a Kool Kid, bit of a rubber neck on the brakes though :D :thumbsup:

[SSLance]

Just wait until you get to feel how well these Stoptech brakes work in person, you'll get it then. :D

[Sieg]

Just wait until you get to feel how well these Stoptech brakes work in person, you'll get it then. :D
My new to me daily driver has freshly rebuilt Brembo calipers with ABS and StopTech 309 pads from Mr. Sutton. I've rubber-necked a few unsuspecting passengers. :lol: :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Great to see you Saturday Lance! The car performed awesome and your driving is equally stellar! I've watched just a "few" (LOL) cars on various courses.... You've got that Purple People Eater dialed in.

Thanks too - for taking Adrienne on the ride-along. She loves this stuff. It was a nice stress reliever for her. The suddenness of her promotion and move - while great for her career - was a little bit of a shock.... so she needed some excitement that wasn't work related. HAHAHAHAHA

Love ya buddy -- See ya in April.

[SSLance]

Great to see you Saturday Lance! The car performed awesome and your driving is equally stellar! I've watched just a "few" (LOL) cars on various courses.... You've got that Purple People Eater dialed in.

Thanks too - for taking Adrienne on the ride-along. She loves this stuff. It was a nice stress reliever for her. The suddenness of her promotion and move - while great for her career - was a little bit of a shock.... so she needed some excitement that wasn't work related. HAHAHAHAHA

Love ya buddy -- See ya in April.

Thanks Greg! It was a nice surprise that you made it here for the show and even better that you brought Adrienne with you. Can't wait to check her new place out.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Looked like an awesome run!!!

[Ron Sutton]

Did you rob a bank before your run? You came out of the last turn like the cops were on your tail. Hahaha!

Nice job Lance.

:lmao:

[SSLance]

After we got home from Good Guys, our friend Amanda Hitt sent me these pictures she took during the event.

https://photos.smugmug.com/2018-Good-Guys-Spring-Nationals/i-SR3zCXw/0/5da8dd65/X2/DSC_0255-X2.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/2018-Good-Guys-Spring-Nationals/i-wkFkqxh/0/ae20da39/X2/DSC_0928-X2.jpg

Yesterday I ran back up to the storage unit just to see if one of the front sway bar end links was broken or a front bushing mount was loose again. The last time Barney leaned like this in a corner was when the front bar was unhooked. Everything seemed to be in order...

I guess it is just a testament of how much more force is put on the suspension on this type of course. Now I really wish I would have run Solostorm for at least a couple runs just to see what kind of G forces were going on.

Top speeds for me were around 50 mph right up until the brakes were slammed on and two turns of the steering wheel were thrown at the car to get it turned around. There was nothing smooth about it what so ever, this is what was needed to get around the course fast.

https://photos.smugmug.com/2018-Good-Guys-Spring-Nationals/i-DGT4tkT/0/fc81cf3a/X2/DSC_0760-X2.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/2018-Good-Guys-Spring-Nationals/i-8JMPJz2/0/5e5c5030/X2/DSC_0762-X2.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/2018-Good-Guys-Spring-Nationals/i-DJZc8L9/0/24058466/X2/DSC_0744-X2.jpg



One has to wonder just how much faster the car would have been had it not been riding on the rockers mid turn? :D

[Tinker]

One has to wonder just how much faster the car would have been had it not been riding on the rockers mid turn? :D

Funny, I was thinking your car looked like it was rolling quite a bit when I saw the first picture.
Time to call Ron for a bmf sway bar to swap out for short courses?

[Sieg]

Spring rate or Bar rate? :sieg:

[Tinker]

Spring rate or Bar rate? :sieg:

I would say bar rate. Lance already found he disliked the stiffer front springs. Just for starters, spring change affects front end dive before turn in and forward bite out of the turn, changing the entire handling. A bar change won't affect percentages on the scales, straight line dive, or ride heights, but the rear bar would have to be adjusted to match the front change to maintain neutral handling.
Sorry, Lance I'm done with the hijack!:topic:

[rustomatic]

I'd second the bar rate. My last Falcon suspension setup went for higher-rate springs, and I hated what it did to the ride. The Corvette setup is staying with the lightest (stock) springs (and best adjustable shocks) I can get away with. Just upping the front bar size made a considerable difference, and the thing still rides unreasonably well. It helps to have a tire that can take the bar, as plowing blows . . .

[rixtrix1]

Wow, Lance, looks like that course gave you, and the car, a real workout!

[SSLance]

Thought some of you might find this pretty interesting. Terri took 100 pics in burst mode of Barney in a turn during the challenge at Good Guys last weekend and I made a movie of them. I so need to do more of this when testing a new setup.

oQ21VvAaQ68

[GregWeld]

Sometimes we talk about "rotation" --- or --- getting the arse end around..... In drift school (DirtFish) we simply apply a bit of Hoon handle and around she comes..... LOL

I wonder - if a guy was so inclined - if that 180 could be done with another technique - "a pendulum turn" in conjunction with late braking - and then a bit O'Throttle and get 'er to come 'round..... But oh boy --- if ya mess it up it's going to be costly points wise. LOL

Fun in the dirt and gravel when nobody is counting.....

[SSLance]

I've found with the street tires we run, it's better to not ever induce slippage. It seems that once they start sliding, you are waiting for them to grip before you go fast again. Other tires and other surfaces are different I'm certain.

[GregWeld]

I've found with the street tires we run, it's better to not ever induce slippage. It seems that once they start sliding, you are waiting for them to grip before you go fast again. Other tires and other surfaces are different I'm certain.



Oh --- trust me --- I was laughing when I was posting that..... It wouldn't be very controllable and would most likely just end up flipping cones all over the place - but damn it would be fun!!! LOL

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Man I had the same thought- that's a wicked turn there. Do you have a specific driving philosophy for that Lance? Looked like you went a little wide then nice and smooth around in a large arc.

I wondered about hugging that pivot cone a little closer too with some harder braking and tighter turn in but maybe that throws off the balance when you transition from brake to throttle? And of course the risk of braking loose and sliding the rear comes into play. When I lived back east my first ride in a P-T car on an autocross was with Eric Wracker in his Duster. That was his philosophy,. slide the butt around. Man! That was some fun rides, he drove like a maniac and I was ear to ear grins!

Thanks for sharing, that was neat to watch.

[SSLance]

The philosophy is...get around it as fast as you can! In whatever manner works for you. :D

This was taken during a shootout run where hitting a cone would have been deadly, so I was a bit more careful about allowing room around them. On faster runs I was tighter to the cones on left during entry and tighter to the inside pin cone. Being a bit wider on this turn got the front tires out into the marbles, which made it push just a bit, which ended up making the turn even wider. This run was about a half second off my fastest time of the weekend and I could have very well lost it all in just that turn.

[z28cp]

I have found that 'playing it safe' usually just ends up losing time. If your previous runs thru there were clean, just keep doing the same thing. Changing your approach will usually just cost you time.

Have faith that you will continue to do it cleanly! :)

[SSLance]

I'd venture a guess that about a third of my total runs that weekend had at least one cone. A course design like this kind of makes that inevitable I believe.

My fastest time of the weekend (47.638) had a tickled cone that negated it. My cleanest fast time was a 47.909. My first shootout run was a 48.2xx but had a cone. Thankfully ( :D ) I got a rerun on it due to a timing computer error and ran another low 48.xxx but still wasn't fast enough to advance.

The whole shootout format takes everything up another notch over a normal autocross and I'm still pretty new to it. It is interesting to watch those that are very good at it in how they are maybe a bit cautious on their first few runs then let it all hang out when it gets down to the final 4. It is not uncommon for even them to hit a cone and take themselves out.

What makes this even more difficult than say an SCCA challenge is the competitor that gets to go second...knows if the car they are running against hit a cone or not before they run because there is only one car on the course at a time.

[SSLance]

Well, that didn't go as planned...

This happened as I was trying to back it off the trailer to race this morning.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-8MNHv5b/0/6a8375de/X2/20180331_065858-X2.jpg

Clutch master cylinder failed as I was letting the clutch out to help it down the ramps.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-n9pWWsG/0/d24946a2/X2/20180331_065722-X2.jpg

While I'm bummed I didn't get to race today, I'm happy that I don't have to pull the transmission out to fix it.

[glassman]

Sometimes we talk about "rotation" --- or --- getting the arse end around..... In drift school (DirtFish) we simply apply a bit of Hoon handle and around she comes..... LOL

I wonder - if a guy was so inclined - if that 180 could be done with another technique - "a pendulum turn" in conjunction with late braking - and then a bit O'Throttle and get 'er to come 'round..... But oh boy --- if ya mess it up it's going to be costly points wise. LOL

Fun in the dirt and gravel when nobody is counting.....

I've seen people do it here at the Pleasanton GG auto-x events, granted, they are not loosing traction (much), looks good and seems to work.

the Cones are tightly packed, i equate to jogging in a closet. But it beats mowing the lawn....

[SSLance]

This is supposed to be fun right?


https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-hb8sjKR/0/7ad67385/XL/DSC_7995-XL.jpg


:D

[SSLance]

https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2018/04/01/DSC_8421.md.jpg

[SSLance]

These were taken by Cole Reynolds...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-DcCMdTB/0/f66f4dfb/XL/Goodguys-Scottsdale-2018-Autocross-Cole-Reynolds-015-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-Sj2skTr/0/66d54b40/XL/Goodguys-Scottsdale-2018-Autocross-Cole-Reynolds-332-XL.jpg

[jarhead]

nice pictures, looks like allot of fun!

[SSLance]

Clutch culprit found...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-C2gjqzd/0/3d6cb461/XL/20180407_092911-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-K7LWHkK/0/d38adc8e/XL/20180407_092939-XL.jpg

And the cure...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-dBDgMSL/0/d74e7042/XL/20180407_093617-XL.jpg

Hopefully that is the last repair done in here...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-9MSS2mx/0/4c7d18ab/XL/20180407_094810-XL.jpg

We close on the new house later this week. Woot!!!

[Ben@SpeedTech]

This is supposed to be fun right?


https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-hb8sjKR/0/7ad67385/XL/DSC_7995-XL.jpg


:D

hahaha!

[gofastwclass]

Clutch culprit found...


We close on the new house later this week. Woot!!!

I had the same problem in my WS6. I thought it was just me.


I remembered you saying you were closing this month but wasn't sure when. Congrats, the place looks awesome!

By the way, we had bitter cold Friday (was supposed to be a swap meet) and snow again last Sunday. Grrrr. You guys made the right decision.

[malibu795]

Clutch culprit found...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-C2gjqzd/0/3d6cb461/XL/20180407_092911-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-K7LWHkK/0/d38adc8e/XL/20180407_092939-XL.jpg

And the cure...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-dBDgMSL/0/d74e7042/XL/20180407_093617-XL.jpg

Hopefully that is the last repair done in here...

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-9MSS2mx/0/4c7d18ab/XL/20180407_094810-XL.jpg

We close on the new house later this week. Woot!!!
I know money is already spent....

I run a mcloed 1400 series HYD throw-out center on mine..
I see they have added some stuff I need to spend money on since I swapped to manual 15 years ago....
https://www.mcleodracing.com/index.php/hydraulics/hydraulic-components/master-slave-cylinders.html

I have had better luck with 4th gen F body MC vs 3rd gen MCs


nice catching up on barney

[rixtrix1]

Just went through your whole thread this past week; couldn't stop. Best documentation and quantity of mods I've seen. Proof positive of what Ron says in his suspension threads, for sure! Car looks fantastic in the latest vids. Good to hear you're in the new place, too.

Are you keeping the tapered roller bearings in the rear axle? Are new axles required to do these? My 9" has Currie axles and I plan on putting different housing ends (has small Mustang ends on it now) to more easily accommodate bigger bearings and newer style brakes, but may go the full floater route. In the pics I saw the taper bearing isn't sealed on the inside, so I assume you don't use the internal axle seals with them? As for the locker, my best friend from high school and his little brother had Shelby's, a '69 GT-500 and a '68 GT-350 repectively, and both had Detroits and we never had a push problem in autoX. Noisy sometimes and you had to be careful on wet roads, but never had a maintenance problem. I rebuilt the Eaton posi in my Chevelle 3 times in 2.5 years.

[SSLance]

Thanks for the kind words Ric, it's been a journey for sure...

The tapered bearings in the rear axle have done their job well, much better alternative than the sealed bearing setup. And you are correct, no inner seals and the diff gear oil lubes the bearings. They do take a different axle than the sealed bearings as the ID of the bearings is just a tad bit larger on these.

I've had no pad knockback issues even after installing the fixed calipers so for now I'm staying with the rear axle setup currently on the car. If and when I ever get around to doing some sort of 3 link setup I'll consider going to a floater bearing setup as well, but it's not a crucial upgrade for me at this time.

[Zspoiler]

Was it under warranty ? And are you going to think of reinforce the new one so it won`t happen again.?

[SSLance]

I assume you are referring to the clutch master push rod? It was over 5 years old so I'm sure it was not under any warranty. At this time I just replaced it with another, it was a $90 part that is available at just about any auto parts store and not that hard to replace if it happens again. If it does happen again, maybe I'll be in a better place or time where I can modify or upgrade to better solution. For now, I'm just gonna send it... :D