Budget '69 Camaro Track Car - NO WHINERS!

[Track Junky]

got the shocks pulled out, sway bar positioning better. I'll work on the mount after I get The Black to the aligment shop this coming week..

What mount are we talking about? Did you get a pic of the crack in the firewall?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

What mount are we talking about? Did you get a pic of the crack in the firewall?

The mounts axle side. I'm going to set it and weld the supports in. There was signs of movement due to what I suspect was due to short rods. I want to address the tail pipe issues but I don't think I can this round. Those damn things are doing more bad than good.
Still have about 12 hours of welding to do on The Black, 4 hours of assembly to do on The Red, 10 hours of assembly on The Green which is coming back from paint Saturday and at least 15 hours left on your car. My goal is to lose 4 69 Camaros by the 25-27th.

Sorry, No pictures taken after 10:45, your just gonna have to be happy with after effects. We were just trying to get home before the clock hit tomorrow. Trust me, it was nothing spectacular.

[Track Junky]

10-4. Thought you were talking about the new mounts for the Penske's. Expect the car back after T-Hill for the new shock mounts but only if you can have them done in a couple of weeks after drop off cuz I want to head back out in June.

EDIT: Just checked the NCRC schedule. Would like to make the June 28 T-Hill track day so we have more time than two weeks.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

cleaned up the wiring a bit...i'll post more stuff this weekend. Saturday should be a good day.

[Track Junky]

Thanks Vince. Looks like you have a decent pile of unnecessary wire that you removed. :thumbsup:

[gerno]

cleaned up the wiring a bit...i'll post more stuff this weekend. Saturday should be a good day.

I think you left out 90% of the harness...I like it

[Vince@Meanstreets]

don't even remember where we left off....spent the weekend with the ole two steps forward 10 steps back fiassco. decided to put his seats and steering wheel in a spec miata hoping he won't notice.:G-Dub:

[glassman]

Did i read it right? you going to t-hill on may 3/4?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Did i read it right? you going to t-hill on may 3/4?

Yep, coming up pretty fast.

[Flash68]

Yep, coming up pretty fast.

:popcorn2:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Here are the pictures of the column mount and firewall plate to mount the Woodward unit.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

now that the column is in and set to drivers preference we can start working on the dash layout. Since we are building a full custom dash at a later date we are building a temporary one so we can see how the driver likes driving with different layouts.


old and proposed new.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

so this will be the last update till its done, i have way too much to do in 5 days. A run down, that's 2 cars to be done by Weds, a car to be delivered Weekend and another to be done by the following Tuesday. :waveflag:

But here is a few teezer shots.

[Flash68]

1. Stay off the internet

2. Hire some help

:D

Stuff looks good!

[Leroy Rochester]

Here are the pictures of the column mount and firewall plate to mount the Woodward unit.

Awesome! I really dig this!

[Track Junky]

Thanks Vince. Lovin it!!

[Ron in SoCal]

Thanks Vince. Lovin it!!

Me too! Get ready GC. Won't be long now :cheers:

Oh, BTW I found this at Harbor Freight. Thought of you and Vince. You know, deadlines and all :lol:

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac52/flash911/IMG_0880_zpsa8bc4e2b.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/flash911/media/IMG_0880_zpsa8bc4e2b.jpg.html)

[glassman]

Isnt that "gap spray"?

Vince, can you fit in my mini tubs wednesday before t-hill?

G, looking forward to meeting ya up at t'hill next weekend....love that car.

[Track Junky]

Me too! Get ready GC. Won't be long now :cheers:

Oh, BTW I found this at Harbor Freight. Thought of you and Vince. You know, deadlines and all :lol:

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac52/flash911/IMG_0880_zpsa8bc4e2b.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/flash911/media/IMG_0880_zpsa8bc4e2b.jpg.html)

Thanks Ronny. Don't know how we'd get by without you . :lol: :cheers:
Buttonwillow in September? :unibrow:

Isnt that "gap spray"?

Vince, can you fit in my mini tubs wednesday before t-hill?

G, looking forward to meeting ya up at t'hill next weekend....love that car.

Thanks glassman, looking forward to it. I hear this may be your first road course event? Just relax and take it all in. You'll be amongst good company should you need a hand. :thumbsup: You hanging out for the BBQ/Social?

[glassman]

Yeah i'll be getting b'bqued, i meen i'll be there for the bbque. School on sat and slideways (well you know) on sunday. Towing it up on friday. Waaaaay looking forward to it. see ya then...

[Track Junky]

Yeah i'll be getting b'bqued, i meen i'll be there for the bbque. School on sat and slideways (well you know) on sunday. Towing it up on friday. Waaaaay looking forward to it. see ya then...

Cool. I don't typically spend the night for T-Hill events but I'm pretty sure I'll be hanging out for awhile after this one to throw down a few and do a little bench racing. :unibrow:

[Sieg]

Oh, BTW I found this at Harbor Freight. Thought of you and Vince. You know, deadlines and all :lol:
Walmart has the lightweight racer stuff. :D

[Flash68]

is it done yet? :action-smiley-027:

[Track Junky]

is it done yet? :action-smiley-027:

:lol: Smart Azz

Don't know. Vince cut me off. I was bugging him too much. All I got was a teaser pic of one of the rear shock mounts so far :hairpullout:

[Damn True]

Well, I can attest that he's been at the shop. I swung by there yesterday, his truck was there but it was locked and he wasn't answering the phone. Head down and working hard Id guess.

[Track Junky]

True, no doubt on my mind he is nose to the grind stone. Always has been and always is when I visit the shop. Fact is he's buried and has another customers car that needs alot more work than mine, got there before me, and is scheduled for the same event. He's working his ass off trying to get the both of us there but he's only one guy.
On top of that he's my bud and I'm not going to push him just for one event. There will be many more down the road.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Sorry I missed you true, I was next door using my neighbors end mill. Long story but the shop has been fighting me tooth and nail. Then my compressor caught fire Monday night. Exciting stuff. Wasted most of the day Tuesday getting a new motor for it when I was supposed to be finishing up the black.

Orange will get done. I just don't want to push it and make a mistake for one event. I'm gonna get it done right for the rest.

No excuses, I screwed up this time, too much work and didn't account for set backs. But then again I never do.

[Damn True]

Something done right > Something done fast

[Track Junky]

How we looking Vince? Please tell me were going to prove Weld wrong and have a car up there Sunday.

[67zo6Camaro]

How we looking Vince? Please tell me were going to prove Weld wrong and have a car up there Sunday.


:theresa:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

There is only one man that I need to prove my worth and I need only look up.
In no way was that reference to his height...just saying. not saying there is anything wrong with his height. :hitaxeonthehead:

who gives a toot what you got. run your race


I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Your car could go at anytime, im just slapping on race parts to solidify the fact that you guys want to call them street cars...still..... :EmoteClueless:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

LOL 5 hour energy FTW

[Ron in SoCal]

LOL 5 hour energy FTW

Good thing you don't do drugs and post Vin :lol: :cheers:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Good thing you don't do drugs and post Vin :lol: :cheers:

No doubt, I'd never get anything done.U

I rarely use caffeine but this week has been a holes and elbows. Between 4 69 Camaros, equipment fire , year and quarterly tax it's been quite interesting.

[fleetus macmullitz]

There is only one man that I need to prove my worth and I need only look up.
In no way was that reference to his height...just saying. not saying there is anything wrong with his height. :hitaxeonthehead:

who gives a toot what you got. run your race


I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Your car could go at anytime, im just slapping on race parts to solidify the fact that you guys want to call them street cars...still..... :EmoteClueless:

LOL 5 hour energy FTW

Good thing you don't do drugs and post Vin :lol: :cheers:

:popcorn2:

PCmFT5kIfXM

[GregWeld]

How we looking Vince? Please tell me were going to prove Weld wrong and have a car up there Sunday.





We're not holding our breath -- nor are we actually waiting for you... We're very happy just running our cars.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

27 hour thrash, ended by a $2.75 AN o ring plug holding back oil.

Such as life.




Suck it Weld. :disgusted:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

ROFL Skip!!! You nailed it again. That was us for the last 6 hours.

[fleetus macmullitz]

ROFL Skip!!! You nailed it again. That was us for the last 6 hours.

Just stayin in my very narrow lane Vince. :D

Glad it could bring some comic relief. :thumbsup:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

It's no problem skip, I have great sense of humor and I tend to come off harsh but it's all the Monte Python and three stooges growing up. And they say TV rots your brain... I laugh and say "what brain?!?!"

[Vince@Meanstreets]

so back to the Orange, we poked around and looked over the various oil gally plugs they have run and failed in the past and I was able to determine it was an AN o-ring fiting and not a thought to be NPT.

I happen to have a -4 union but no plug, so I chopped one side off and welded the hole shut. rolled on an o-ring and installed it. Good fit. Tried it and it held up. So its off to Thunderhill.

[intocarss]

so back to the Orange, we poked around and looked over the various oil gally plugs they have run and failed in the past and I was able to determine it was an AN o-ring fiting and not a thought to be NPT.

I happen to have a -4 union but no plug, so I chopped one side off and welded the hole shut. rolled on an o-ring and installed it. Good fit. Tried it and it held up. So its off to Thunderhill.

So how'd he do at TH??

HERE'S TO YOU VINNY
mL7n5mEmXJo

[Vince@Meanstreets]

So how'd he do at TH??

HERE'S TO YOU VINNY
mL7n5mEmXJo
thanks, oh the classics...
I don't think he got any track time due to what time he got up there but knowing him it didn't stay in the trailer... I guess he did great for a parade car.
No details yet. If he is feeling anything like I do he is asleep under his supervisor desk.

Here are a few pictures of the cell box and mounting cage.

[Ron Sutton]

Nice fuel cell cage. :)

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Thanks Ron,

He will be going in for a cage revision soon and we'll get some down bars to tie into.

BTW, I wish I had gone with 38" canister hoses.

[Flash68]

Car looked really good Vince.... your customer, however, did not.

:action-smiley-027:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Car looked really good Vince.... your customer, however, did not.

:action-smiley-027:

lol...he was tore up. no one got pictures?

[1transam]

Nice, that thing came out killer................... VINCE GET SOME SLEEP lol!!!!!!!

ANOTHER ONE GONE........ :computer:

[Flash68]

lol...he was tore up. no one got pictures?

I took this one but my finger got in the way

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/92135BB9-7EBA-40C3-9B53-CB9749237B53_zpskqmkdnzx.jpg (http://s236.photobucket.com/user/flash68/media/92135BB9-7EBA-40C3-9B53-CB9749237B53_zpskqmkdnzx.jpg.html)

[fleetus macmullitz]

^^^^^^^^^^^

A moderate response..

:sarcasm_smiley:


lol

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Haaaaa haaaaaa one 69. Can't believe your finger covered his entire head.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Nice, that thing came out killer................... VINCE GET SOME SLEEP lol!!!!!!!

ANOTHER ONE GONE........ :computer:

You got it man! 2 more gone by this Thursday.

[Track Junky]

First off need to say thanks to Vince and Allen for putting in the long haul Saturday and Sunday to get the car done. We started at about 10:00 a.m. Saturday morning and I think we finished around the same time Sunday morning. Worked straight through with no sleep. Yup, we worked 24 hours plus......LOL. It was something else to say the least. I'll post some pics in a bit.

[Vegas69]

Please tell me you smoked the runt.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

First off need to say thanks to Vince and Allen for putting in the long haul Saturday and Sunday to get the car done. We started at about 10:00 a.m. Saturday morning and I think we finished around the same time Sunday morning. Worked straight through with no sleep. Yup, we worked 24 hours plus......LOL. It was something else to say the least. I'll post some pics in a bit.

theres nothing like taking a break from some hard work and watching the sunrise. Thats the first time we ever did a marathon with a customer...never again. LOL

Please tell me you smoked the runt.

[Track Junky]

I took this one but my finger got in the way

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/92135BB9-7EBA-40C3-9B53-CB9749237B53_zpskqmkdnzx.jpg (http://s236.photobucket.com/user/flash68/media/92135BB9-7EBA-40C3-9B53-CB9749237B53_zpskqmkdnzx.jpg.html)

LOL.....fricken Dave :lol:

[Track Junky]

Heres a shot of the Woodward steering column, OMP steering wheel, and gauge/switch panel. Dash is only partially done at this time and we'll finish it some time later this year.

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab73/Gitter_Dun/pphotostobelabeled5-4-2014474.jpg

Hers a shot of the cockpit adjusters for the ARS 3000 series shocks.


http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab73/Gitter_Dun/Orange%2069/pphotostobelabeled5-4-2014473.jpg

[67zo6Camaro]

That's cool having real time adjustment to the shocks. I'm wondering what you think of those. I'm guessing it will make it easy to do a lap at one setting then another lap at a different setting.... getting some direct feedback which setting was better feeling and/or faster. I likie.

[rustomatic]

I know a good road for testing out those shock adjustments . . . maybe not...

[Track Junky]

That's cool having real time adjustment to the shocks. I'm wondering what you think of those. I'm guessing it will make it easy to do a lap at one setting then another lap at a different setting.... getting some direct feedback which setting was better feeling and/or faster. I likie.

Yeah, its going to be interesting Bret. I'm always making adjustments at the track so hopefully this will save me from having to have to pull the floor jack out after every sesion.

I know a good road for testing out those shock adjustments . . . maybe not...

I think we have quite a few around us that would be more than helpful but we all know thats a no no.

[Flash68]

It was nice to finally see this mythical creature to verify its existence.... it can look like a PT car from 20 feet with the nailed stance and pretty Forgeline rims, but it's all bidness when you get up close. Go get some. :guns:

[Ron Sutton]

That's cool having real time adjustment to the shocks. I'm wondering what you think of those. I'm guessing it will make it easy to do a lap at one setting then another lap at a different setting.... getting some direct feedback which setting was better feeling and/or faster. I likie.

Hey Bret,

Gaetano & I were looking at typical shock brands, but he had a need for lots of travel (7"+) in a short shock package ... along with race valving, more rear tire grip & adjustability. So I had these built custom by a race shock company I have used for years, with my secret sauce digressive valving curve. They are not cheap, but they are bad ass, awesome race shocks. (Not for street, as they need to be rebuilt more often.) They utilize super low gas pressure for increased tire grip which is what G needed.

The double adjustability ... with remote cables ... it great for a track car. It makes your track time more productive. When G runs a couple laps & sees the car needs more entry grip, he can dial in some more rebound on a straight and feel the change the next lap. That will grip up the exits too. The time saver is you don't have to wait until your sessions is over ... go to the pits & tune ... and wait until the next session to see how it worked. the results show in the next corner. If G wants to free up the middle of the corners, he can stiffen the compression a few clicks. If he wants to grip up the corners, he can soften the compression. He can tell how it performs in the next corner.

Note: If you adjust rear shock rebound too stiff ... the car will loosen up again on corner entry, as the heavy car will simply "pull" the too stiff shocks & rear end with it & unload the rear tires. Like most things ... it's about finding the balance.

For just rear shocks, it's a pretty tunable package. If we added similar fronts (with correct front valving) dialing in the total handling is a snap. A lot of guys see the knobs and think it's confusing. But you don't have to turn them. They're clearly marked & once you get used to which direction does what ... it's pretty cool.


:cheers:

[Ron Sutton]

It was nice to finally see this mythical creature to verify its existence.... it can look like a PT car from 20 feet with the nailed stance and pretty Forgeline rims, but it's all bidness when you get up close. Go get some. :guns:

Love it ... Cheeseball. :cheers:

[rustomatic]

Gee Ron, you make it sound so easy. My front Konis take about 30 minutes, what with all the bolts I've got to undo; fortunately, thanks to my recent "track prep," I'm now out of adjustment, so no more tears...

The rears are a bit easier, and are great for one-arm bench pressing practice. I need to learn to more consistently not brake with my downshifts to understand the true value of the damping in my rear shocks...


Hey Bret,

Gaetano & I were looking at typical shock brands, but he had a need for lots of travel (7"+) in a short shock package ... along with race valving, more rear tire grip & adjustability. So I had these built custom by a race shock company I have used for years, with my secret sauce digressive valving curve. They are not cheap, but they are bad ass, awesome race shocks. (Not for street, as they need to be rebuilt more often.) They utilize super low gas pressure for increased tire grip which is what G needed.

The double adjustability ... with remote cables ... it great for a track car. It makes your track time more productive. When G runs a couple laps & sees the car needs more entry grip, he can dial in some more rebound on a straight and feel the change the next lap. That will grip up the exits too. The time saver is you don't have to wait until your sessions is over ... go to the pits & tune ... and wait until the next session to see how it worked. the results show in the next corner. If G wants to free up the middle of the corners, he can stiffen the compression a few clicks. If he wants to grip up the corners, he can soften the compression. He can tell how it performs in the next corner.

Note: If you adjust rear shock rebound too stiff ... the car will loosen up again on corner entry, as the heavy car will simply "pull" the too stiff shocks & rear end with it & unload the rear tires. Like most things ... it's about finding the balance.

For just rear shocks, it's a pretty tunable package. If we added similar fronts (with correct front valving) dialing in the total handling is a snap. A lot of guys see the knobs and think it's confusing. But you don't have to turn them. They're clearly marked & once you get used to which direction does what ... it's pretty cool.


:cheers:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Gee Ron, you make it sound so easy. My front Konis take about 30 minutes, what with all the bolts I've got to undo; fortunately, thanks to my recent "track prep," I'm now out of adjustment, so no more tears...

The rears are a bit easier, and are great for one-arm bench pressing practice. I need to learn to more consistently not brake with my downshifts to understand the true value of the damping in my rear shocks...

it really isnt so bad but when your in 130 degree weather, 175 degree ground and 300 degree exhaust, it can be a bit challenging. Anything to make changes easy is good by me.

[Track Junky]

Thanks again for helping me out Ron. Looking to run either June 13th at T-Hill or June 14th at Sonoma. Fair warning....your on speed dial :unibrow:

[GregWeld]

Thanks again for helping me out Ron. Looking to run either June 13th at T-Hill or June 14th at Sonoma. Fair warning....your on speed dial :unibrow:




Thank goodness for caller ID.......

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Thanks again for helping me out Ron. Looking to run either June 13th at T-Hill or June 14th at Sonoma. Fair warning....your on speed dial :unibrow:

Thank goodness for caller ID.......

don't forget to make the beep noise at the end if you do accidentally pick up.

[Ron Sutton]

Thanks again for helping me out Ron. Looking to run either June 13th at T-Hill or June 14th at Sonoma. Fair warning....your on speed dial :unibrow:

Awesome. Please do text or call me after your runs so we can talk. Because it could be dangerous if you called me during your runs. :poke:

Seriously, I understand this valving, so I can save you some time getting them dialed in and you can move on to the next thing to focus on.

[Track Junky]

Awesome. Please do text or call me after your runs so we can talk. Because it could be dangerous if you called me during your runs. :poke:

Seriously, I understand this valving, so I can save you some time getting them dialed in and you can move on to the next thing to focus on.



Fair warning Ron. Couldn't wait till June. Registered for NASA Time Trials at T-Hill for May 24th. :hello:

[GregWeld]

Fair warning Ron. Couldn't wait till June. Registered for NASA Time Trials at T-Hill for May 24th. :hello:




TRACK ADDICT!!!!



LOL

[Track Junky]

TRACK ADDICT!!!!



LOL

Yeah Right!! Look who's talking!! LMAO

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Yeah Right!! Look who's talking!! LMAO

Make sure you check torque on your wheels please. I ordered the correct plug for the side, its here....is it still good to go?

Don't wait for the track, you can get a base shock setting driving around town.

[Track Junky]

Make sure you check torque on your wheels please. I ordered the correct plug for the side, its here....is it still good to go?

Don't wait for the track, you can get a base shock setting driving around town.

Wheels torqued. Your magic oil plug has seemed to do the trick so we're good there.
Car felt a bit bouncy so Ron Sutton adjusted them at T-Hill. Drove the car around town a bit and they feel they are at a decent base setting now.

[GregWeld]

Wheels torqued. Your magic oil plug has seemed to do the trick so we're good there.
Car felt a bit bouncy so Ron Sutton adjusted them at T-Hill. Drove the car around town a bit and they feel they are at a decent base setting now.




Is that so you can claim it's a "street car"?? LOLOLOLOLOL

[Track Junky]

Is that so you can claim it's a "street car"?? LOLOLOLOLOL

Boy, your on a roll today.........:lol:

[Flash68]

Wheels torqued. Your magic oil plug has seemed to do the trick so we're good there.
Car felt a bit bouncy so Ron Sutton adjusted them at T-Hill. Drove the car around town a bit and they feel they are at a decent base setting now.

I thoroughly enjoyed when you asked Ron if he wanted to ride with you around the Thunderhill paddock to test your new shocks and settings... his answer being "absolutely not" with a dead serious look on his face. :lol:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I thoroughly enjoyed when you asked Ron if he wanted to ride with you around the Thunderhill paddock to test your new shocks and settings... his answer being "absolutely not" with a dead serious look on his face. :lol:
he would have loved hangin with us today setting his brake prop valve.


Finally got him to go with a manual master....after 3 years of bitching a faulty power booster pushed him over the edge.

We usually run 15/16 bore with the Baer Track Claw but I opted for a 7/8" for a easy pedal. Feels great.

New shoes too.

[fleetus macmullitz]

^^^^^^^^^

Man car alert. :thumbsup:

Nice :flashie:

[GregWeld]

I've said it 500 times === anyone that THINKS they need power brakes just doesn't have their brakes right to begin with. We can now THINK about re-issuing his man card. LOL



Will be fun viewing this car in the rear view mirror.

[Sieg]

Will be fun viewing this car in the rear view mirror.
If Gae wasn't awake yet, he is now. :lol:

[Track Junky]

Another quick thrash yesterday by Vince. Thanks buddy. We were flushing the brake system Saturday night and the booster took a crap. Vinced advised going to manual. I was on the fence but finally said f it, go for it. Went by after work yesterday to bring another bottle of Motul and top the resevoir off. Once topped off it was brake check time. After a couple quick thrashes we readjusted the prop valve. went for another brake check and as soon as I jumped on the throttle the seat slid back. Noticed one of the sliders had cracked so we welded the seat to the base.
On top of that we got a set of R6's and was able to squeeze a 295 up front by stretching the front fenders a bit more with the help of a baseball bat.
I'm almost afraid to say it but I think she's ready for this Saturdays Time Trial event with NASA.

[GregWeld]

Another quick thrash yesterday by Vince. Thanks buddy. We were flushing the brake system Saturday night and the booster took a crap. Vinced advised going to manual. I was on the fence but finally said f it, go for it. Went by after work yesterday to bring another bottle of Motul and top the resevoir off. Once topped off it was brake check time. After a couple quick thrashes we readjusted the prop valve. went for another brake check and as soon as I jumped on the throttle the seat slid back. Noticed one of the sliders had cracked so we welded the seat to the base.
On top of that we got a set of R6's and was able to squeeze a 295 up front by stretching the front fenders a bit more with the help of a baseball bat.
I'm almost afraid to say it but I think she's ready for this Saturdays Time Trial event with NASA.




'Bout time you quit running girlie tires like these "pro touring" / wannabe race cars.... LOL

[Track Junky]

Will be fun viewing this car in the rear view mirror.

Nobody told me youl'd be driving the pace car :mock:

[Track Junky]

'Bout time you quit running girlie tires like these "pro touring" / wannabe race cars.... LOL

Yup. Think its time to move this thread over to the race car section. Mods?

[syborg tt]

I love the stance on this beast

[Track Junky]

I love the stance on this beast

Thanks Marty :thumbsup:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I love the stance on this beast

Needs a wide body treatment

[Ron in SoCal]

I love the stance on this beast

Needs a wide body treatment

x2!!

G how do the manual brakes feel? Have you got any heat in them yet or done a wee bit of speedy stops?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I've said it 500 times === anyone that THINKS they need power brakes just doesn't have their brakes right to begin with. We can now THINK about re-issuing his man card. LOL
if I had a dollar for everytime I said it I'd be able to sit at your big boy table.


Will be fun viewing this car in the rear view mirror.

AjGXn249Fc0

[Vince@Meanstreets]

x2!!

G how do the manual brakes feel? Have you got any heat in them yet or done a wee bit of speedy stops?

his words were..."they feel the same" in regards to pedal feel and travel. I believe a pad and rotor change are next on his punch list.

[Beach Cruiser]

Car looks great! I'd like to know how the manual brakes work out on the track, I have great brakes with my power setup, but no "feel" Only way I can tell one is locked up is by the smoke rolling out of the fender and by then it's a little late :G-Dub:
I'm jealous, I'm only able to "squeeze" 315's under my front fenders, 295's are much more affordable! Good Luck!

[Stovebolter]

Still looks great. Another one of the cars that have inspired me. :theresa:

I too have joined the manual brake group.

[LS7 Z/28]

Needs a wide body treatment

I'd love to see that on this car, I always enjoy seeing updates in this thread because it's always moving in the right direction. More badass.

[Sieg]

Yup. Think its time to move this thread over to the race car section. Mods?Well technically it still appears to be a project.......ask again after it actually gets on the track. :mock:

Just because it finally got a race car master cylinder doesn't mean it qualifies.

:underchair:

[GregWeld]

Well technically it still appears to be a project.......ask again after it actually gets on the track. :mock:

Just because it finally got a race car master cylinder doesn't mean it qualifies.

:underchair:




OUCH!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[fleetus macmullitz]

Well technically it still appears to be a project.......ask again after it actually gets on the track. :mock:

Just because it finally got a race car master cylinder doesn't mean it qualifies.

:underchair:


:lol:


Now that's a 'moderate' response. ;)

[Track Junky]

Needs a wide body treatment

No wide body treatment for this one. I'll just keep stretchin' her old school style. :warning:

x2!!

G how do the manual brakes feel? Have you got any heat in them yet or done a wee bit of speedy stops?

Funny dude, had to text you get your opinion and we were both on the same page but when Vince told me he had another booster at the shop and we could always send the mc back if I didn't like it I said F it lets try it. To be honest the brakes feel absolutely no different. Weird right? Serious though...I cant tell the difference.
The pads I have in there initially were great but don't bite like they did when they were new. What I did learn though is that I like pads that have a strong initial bite. These pads when new felt like they were going to tear the rotors apart when I stomped on the brakes but I loved the stopping power. After the use of these pads the rotors are showing signs of bluing and surface cracks but I'm not going to have time to get pads and rotors before this Saturday so I'll make do till after this track day.

[Track Junky]

Car looks great! I'd like to know how the manual brakes work out on the track, I have great brakes with my power setup, but no "feel" Only way I can tell one is locked up is by the smoke rolling out of the fender and by then it's a little late :G-Dub:
I'm jealous, I'm only able to "squeeze" 315's under my front fenders, 295's are much more affordable! Good Luck!

Thanks Miles. The R6's run bigger than the NT-01's in 315's so I had to stretch the rear out a bit more. The 295's ran a bit bigger than the 275 RA-1's so I gave it the old school stretch treatment up front also.
In my case running manual brakes throws out two possibilities of failing parts. One being the booster and the other being the vacuum pump I had to use do to the size of my cam. I recommend going manual. I cant even tell the difference between the two.

Still looks great. Another one of the cars that have inspired me. :theresa:

I too have joined the manual brake group.

I'd love to see that on this car, I always enjoy seeing updates in this thread because it's always moving in the right direction. More badass.

Thanks guys :thumbsup:

Well technically it still appears to be a project.......ask again after it actually gets on the track. :mock:

Just because it finally got a race car master cylinder doesn't mean it qualifies.

:underchair:

OUCH!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:lol:


Now that's a 'moderate' response. ;)

Man you guys run a tight ship around here :lol:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

No wide body treatment for this one. I'll just keep stretchin' her old school style. :warning:



Funny dude, had to text you get your opinion and we were both on the same page but when Vince told me he had another booster at the shop and we could always send the mc back if I didn't like it I said F it lets try it. To be honest the brakes feel absolutely no different. Weird right? Serious though...I cant tell the difference.
The pads I have in there initially were great but don't bite like they did when they were new. What I did learn though is that I like pads that have a strong initial bite. These pads when new felt like they were going to tear the rotors apart when I stomped on the brakes but I loved the stopping power. After the use of these pads the rotors are showing signs of bluing and surface cracks but I'm not going to have time to get pads and rotors before this Saturday so I'll make do till after this track day.

just because it (barely) fits....doesn't make it right.

[fleetus macmullitz]

just because it (barely) fits....doesn't make it right.

:lol:

Vince...FTW!

[Sieg]

Priceless Vince! :lmao:

[GregWeld]

Biggest improvement to be made to this crate.... a driver change. LOL



Seriously -- the R6's will be such a major improvement it will be a "come to jesus" moment when you get them heat cycled and ready to rock.

With the sizes you're running... the car should be on rails. Right up until you become over confident. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Stovebolter]

Lol Vince.

[Damn True]

just because it (barely) fits....doesn't make it right.

Saw a gal today in yoga pants that reminded me of this post.

[Track Junky]

Seriously -- the R6's will be such a major improvement it will be a "come to jesus" moment when you get them heat cycled and ready to rock.

With the sizes you're running... the car should be on rails. Right up until you become over confident. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Not looking forward to breaking these tires in. According to Hoosier you need to run 3-5 more lbs of air, run approx. 7-8 laps trying to get the most heat in them on the last couple laps then let them cool.
I figure I'll start out at 34 lbs cold which should take me to 40 lbs hot. Then when I bring the car in I'll put all four up on jack stands and let cool.
Should be interesting.

[Track Junky]

Saw a gal today in yoga pants that reminded me of this post.

Guess you can say that quote doesn't apply to every situation. :unibrow:

[GregWeld]

Not looking forward to breaking these tires in. According to Hoosier you need to run 3-5 more lbs of air, run approx. 7-8 laps trying to get the most heat in them on the last couple laps then let them cool.
I figure I'll start out at 34 lbs cold which should take me to 40 lbs hot. Then when I bring the car in I'll put all four up on jack stands and let cool.
Should be interesting.


I have no idea what you should be running -- hot or cold!


I know I'm running a far smaller tire (245) and we're running 29.5 rear and 31.5 front.... on the Mustang

[Damn True]

Not looking forward to breaking these tires in. According to Hoosier you need to run 3-5 more lbs of air, run approx. 7-8 laps trying to get the most heat in them on the last couple laps then let them cool.
I figure I'll start out at 34 lbs cold which should take me to 40 lbs hot. Then when I bring the car in I'll put all four up on jack stands and let cool.
Should be interesting.


Tire rack will heat cycle them for you. It's not expensive and you know they were brought to the correct temp for the correct amount of time.

[GregWeld]

Tire rack will heat cycle them for you. It's not expensive and you know they were brought to the correct temp for the correct amount of time.




Damn -- This IS "BUDGET TRACK CAR" thread.... you think he's going to pay $60 for 4 heat cycled tires???



Sutton told me that even though I do that -- I still have to bring them up to temp slowly... so of course I went straight out onto the track and ran like my second fastest lap. When I came back in - I got scolded a little... LOL

[Track Junky]

I have no idea what you should be running -- hot or cold!


I know I'm running a far smaller tire (245) and we're running 29.5 rear and 31.5 front.... on the Mustang

Typically I hover around 34-36 lbs hot on the 100 tread wear. I've had conversation with the guys running slicks and they tell me they start out at about 28 cold. I know I'll get some input from the NASA boys when I get there so I'll wait and see what they recommend.

Tire rack will heat cycle them for you. It's not expensive and you know they were brought to the correct temp for the correct amount of time.

True, I remember that option but this time around I didn't see it or I would have gone that route. Don't know, maybe I missed it.

[GregWeld]

G -- I was running 28 rear and 29 front COLD --- but that wasn't enough... they were colder in the middle of the tire than they needed to be...


SO that's where the temp probe came into play -- and it told us where we should be.

[Track Junky]

G -- I was running 28 rear and 29 front COLD --- but that wasn't enough... they were colder in the middle of the tire than they needed to be...


SO that's where the temp probe came into play -- and it told us where we should be.

Thanks Greg. That gives me a bit more insight and reminds me that I need to drop by Sonoma tomorrow to pick up a tire temp probe.

[Sieg]

When I came back in - I got scolded a little... LOL

..........and his helmet was a little tough to get on the next session. :slingshot:

[GregWeld]

Thanks Greg. That gives me a bit more insight and reminds me that I need to drop by Sonoma tomorrow to pick up a tire temp probe.



Pick up a Durometer while you're at it -- it's the only way you'll know when these tires are shot.

Don't think you had showed up yet -- but on Saturday I was describing a weird "set" the car was taking in the turns... kind of porpoising... and Ron starts with his magic tricks --- next thing he's telling me the right front is hard... the other three were fine -- But I changed all of them. BINGO the porpoising was gone! The hard tire was losing traction - 'causing the weirdo dance the car was doing. WHO KNEW!

Ron knew dat's who knew... His durometer told him all he needed to know.

The Hoosiers are toast when they hit 56... even though they were fairly new and looked fine!

[Sieg]

The tire durometer & pyrometer, pressure gauge, and infrared thermometer are invaluable tuning tools. Data delivers solutions!

[Vince@Meanstreets]

data gives you a direction. Can't get to optimum without knowing where you are starting.

[Track Junky]

Pick up a Durometer while you're at it -- it's the only way you'll know when these tires are shot.

Don't think you had showed up yet -- but on Saturday I was describing a weird "set" the car was taking in the turns... kind of porpoising... and Ron starts with his magic tricks --- next thing he's telling me the right front is hard... the other three were fine -- But I changed all of them. BINGO the porpoising was gone! The hard tire was losing traction - 'causing the weirdo dance the car was doing. WHO KNEW!

Ron knew dat's who knew... His durometer told him all he needed to know.

The Hoosiers are toast when they hit 56... even though they were fairly new and looked fine!

I remember the story about the durometer. Have to see if I can find one in time. Last I heard Hoosiers are good for about 10 heat cycles. Not sure how to take that info because to me it sounds like 10 sessions.

[GregWeld]

I remember the story about the durometer. Have to see if I can find one in time. Last I heard Hoosiers are good for about 10 heat cycles. Not sure how to take that info because to me it sounds like 10 sessions.




If you drive like I do - you can stretch that out to about 20

[Sieg]

I remember the story about the durometer. Have to see if I can find one in time. Last I heard Hoosiers are good for about 10 heat cycles. Not sure how to take that info because to me it sounds like 10 sessions.

Happy shopping: http://www.longacreracing.com/default.aspx

Ron should also be able to hook you up this equipment. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Happy shopping: http://www.longacreracing.com/default.aspx

Ron should also be able to hook you up this equipment. :thumbsup:




Even better is that he has a gauge to set it to make certain it's accurate!

[Track Junky]

Happy shopping: http://www.longacreracing.com/default.aspx

Ron should also be able to hook you up this equipment. :thumbsup:

Yeah, not happy about dropping another $400 bucks but oh well. Leaving work early(in about 10 minutes), heading to Sonoma(bout a 15 minute drive), picking up the Longacre pyrometer than heading home. :headspin:

[Sieg]

Hey GW........I pulled a mini-Charlie!!!

[GregWeld]

Yeah, not happy about dropping another $400 bucks but oh well. Leaving work early(in about 10 minutes), heading to Sonoma(bout a 15 minute drive), picking up the Longacre pyrometer than heading home. :headspin:






Cheap ass --- just slap the plastic down and let 'er buck!






Hey GW........I pulled a mini-Charlie!!!





High Fiving ya right now Dude! Good job on the "hey! You know what you need......"

[Damn True]

Yeah, not happy about dropping another $400 bucks but oh well. Leaving work early(in about 10 minutes), heading to Sonoma(bout a 15 minute drive), picking up the Longacre pyrometer than heading home. :headspin:

Think of it as cheap insurance against mucking up those tires too quickly.

[GregWeld]

Think of it as cheap insurance against mucking up those tires too quickly.



Yeah -- and the Durometer might keep you from mucking up the CAR when you run them past their sweet spot and slide off the track into the nearest immovable object!

[Damn True]

A6's?

If he doesn't wear them out before they age out he's doing it wrong.

[GregWeld]

A6's?

If he doesn't wear them out before they age out he's doing it wrong.




I'm trying out A6's ---- Gaetano is running R6's.... He doesn't run all that often -- in fact -- I think it's been two years since he last paraded around the track... :>)

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I'm trying out A6's ---- Gaetano is running R6's.... He doesn't run all that often -- in fact -- I think it's been two years since he last paraded around the track... :>)

9 months and 7 days, not that im counting

[Vince@Meanstreets]

The punch list....

-create mounting and install Woodward collapsible steering shaft
-install QD steering wheel
-install and plumb fuel cell
-install ATL fuel sender unit
-redo rear fuel supply with line bulk head
-modify rear sway bar mounting
-fabricate an easy to see and user friendly instrument panel
-rewire underdash
-replace rear shocks
-lose 50lbs
-quad brake lights
-install tracmate

done -create mounting and install Woodward collapsible steering shaft
done -install QD steering wheel
done -install and plumb fuel cell
done -install ATL fuel sender unit
done -redo rear fuel supply with line bulk head
done -modify rear sway bar mounting
done -fabricate an easy to see and user friendly instrument panel
done -rewire underdash
done -replace rear shocks
done -lose 50lbs--- 82lbs lost
later -quad brake lights
done -double adjust cockpit shocks with new upper mounts added
later -install tracmate

[Track Junky]

I'm trying out A6's ---- Gaetano is running R6's.... He doesn't run all that often -- in fact -- I think it's been two years since he last paraded around the track... :>)

A6's will last you about 4 laps then they get slick. Most of the serious NASA Time Trial guys would use them to get quicker times and spend less time on the track beating up there cars.
You shouldn't worry though. At your pace you probably wont even reach optimum temps. :lol: :stirthepot:

[GregWeld]

A6's will last you about 4 laps then they get slick. Most of the serious NASA Time Trial guys would use them to get quicker times and spend less time on the track beating up there cars.
You shouldn't worry though. At your pace you probably wont even reach optimum temps. :lol: :stirthepot:



Ron told me to keep the tires happy.... so that's my new mission in life -- Happy tires!!


HAHAHAHAHA



I've had this tire discussion with 9 million guys... they all have something to say... and I'll 100% guarantee that not one of them has ever checked their tire temperatures - or used a durometer... or have the right air pressure -- it's all hearsay and someone told someone one time about this guy they know. Ron, however, is using all his magic tools to guide me and the car... so I'll go with what HE KNOWS... not what someone else. I'll give the A6's a shot - if they come up to temp too quickly - he'll know it - and we'll do something different.

BTW -- if you think the A6's are soft - you should feel what the Yoko A005's feel like for the Lotus! Chewing gum on a hot sidewalk.... You'd think these wouldn't last 2 laps -- but my buddy that actually IS the Lotus Cup Unlimited Champion says that's what I should be running.... Since he's the US Champion in the same car -- I'll go with it. At $1800 a set... they gotta last more than 2 sessions!

[Flash68]

You gotta remember Gaetano doesn't hang around a bunch of Pro Posers... he's been at the track talking to NASA guys... running TT and other classes. They are doers.

Read the NASA forums (these guys run on the track more than post on the internet about wanting to run on a track). Many indeed have been switching to A6 in recent years over the R6.

Wait, did I just give Gaetano a compliment? :twak:

Can't we talk about 200 TW tires again? :underchair:

[Sieg]

Ron told me to keep the tires happy.... so that's my new mission in life -- Happy tires!!

Here's your new official track day wake up music:

JRMOMjCoR58

I know.............you can thank me later.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

haaa you should have posted the 24 hour video. bet it would have been quiet for about 22 hours. :D

[Track Junky]

Ron told me to keep the tires happy.... so that's my new mission in life -- Happy tires!!


HAHAHAHAHA



I've had this tire discussion with 9 million guys... they all have something to say... and I'll 100% guarantee that not one of them has ever checked their tire temperatures - or used a durometer... or have the right air pressure -- it's all hearsay and someone told someone one time about this guy they know. Ron, however, is using all his magic tools to guide me and the car... so I'll go with what HE KNOWS... not what someone else. I'll give the A6's a shot - if they come up to temp too quickly - he'll know it - and we'll do something different.

BTW -- if you think the A6's are soft - you should feel what the Yoko A005's feel like for the Lotus! Chewing gum on a hot sidewalk.... You'd think these wouldn't last 2 laps -- but my buddy that actually IS the Lotus Cup Unlimited Champion says that's what I should be running.... Since he's the US Champion in the same car -- I'll go with it. At $1800 a set... they gotta last more than 2 sessions!

The A6's will come in within half a lap. That's what makes them nice. There also about a second faster than the R6's and typically the 3rd or 4th lap would be there fastest lap. After that they just came in because the tires would get slick and there times wouldn't get any better.
But hey, I'm willing to let you prove me wrong on your dime. :lol:

[GregWeld]

You gotta remember Gaetano doesn't hang around a bunch of Pro Posers... he's been at the track talking to NASA guys... running TT and other classes. They are doers.

Read the NASA forums (these guys run on the track more than post on the internet about wanting to run on a track). Many indeed have been switching to A6 in recent years over the R6.

Wait, did I just give Gaetano a compliment? :twak:

Can't we talk about 200 TW tires again? :underchair:



I'm not saying Big G doesn't know what he's talking about -- or even the guys he may be hanging with...

BUT --- ALWAYS THE BIG BUTT....

Peoples cars are different - different weights - different everything.... this isn't spec racing. So what works for one guy and doesn't work for someone else is really just pure useless information as far as I'm concerned. IT's got to be done on a case by case basis...

What tracks people are running - how hard they're running - and all of that - there's just so many variables. So an A6 on one car is different than on another car depending on so many things. What's the ambient temp? etc.

As usual -- I'm always trying to post knowing that many other people may be reading this stuff... so I'm also throwing things in as food for thought. Some read and never post...

[GregWeld]

The A6's will come in within half a lap. That's what makes them nice. There also about a second faster than the R6's and typically the 3rd or 4th lap would be there fastest lap. After that they just came in because the tires would get slick and there times wouldn't get any better.
But hey, I'm willing to let you prove me wrong on your dime. :lol:



I think you're missing the point.


RON took my tire temps after a full 9 laps -- multiple sessions over a two day period -- he writes them all down every time -- and THOSE ACTUAL TIRE TEMPS lead us to think that the A6 will be a better choice.

It's just real simple. The temps are the tell. Doesn't make ANY difference to me what worked or didn't on someone else's car or run. We're going by what MY car and tires told us. I have to go with a guy that has 468 wins and ran pro car teams... I'm pretty confident he's not just trying to sell tires (since he doesn't sell tires).

[Vince@Meanstreets]

yet.....:ups:

[Vegas69]

The rich bastard has a pro crew chief, what's next, Ron Fellow's in the passenger seat at all the events?:D

I agree Greg, I'll add driving skill and at what level you are pushing the car. Since you are older and more experienced, I see you as a more patient racer that doesn't abuse the tires. I would think you could get by with an A6 more easily than a 10/10ths guy or one with poor chassis balance. For me, it would be what gives me the best consistency over five, twenty minute sessions.

[GregWeld]

The rich bastard has a pro crew chief, what's next, Ron Fellow's in the passenger seat at all the events?:D

I agree Greg, I'll add driving skill and at what level you are pushing the car. Since you are older and more experienced, I see you as a more patient racer that doesn't abuse the tires. I would think you could get by with an A6 more easily than a 10/10ths guy or one with poor chassis balance. For me, it would be what gives me the best consistency over five, twenty minute sessions.




I'm learning patience Todd...

Your statement about the difference of 10/10ths vs the way I'm running is a major factor. I want more, or as much, grip as I can get - without driving at 10/10ths.

The brake rotor temps are another "tell"... he shoots the temps when I come in so we have a basis to tell us where the brakes are - not only the bias front to rear - but the temp overall. I'm not using a lot of brake - because I'm not pushing the car that hard in to the corner - so the temps are rather "cool" relative to what the pad that was on the car wants to see. That pad wants higher temps to work. Well - I don't drive to that pads characteristics --- so we'll put in a pad that operates where I'm at.

Basically - I think I drive more like a Miata... or maybe a Buick.... IDK LOL

[Vegas69]

The tweaking was the part I enjoyed about my car more than anything except for the using. It's really incremental.

You make a very good point. Getting your car dialed in to where it suits your ability will result in a car that you can drive at 8 or 9/10's and run faster than you used to at full tilt. Being comfortable is a big factor. I'll be interested to see just how much faster you can get with a properly set up car and the same skills behind the wheel.

[GregWeld]

The tweaking was the part I enjoyed about my car more than anything except for the using. It's really incremental.

You make a very good point. Getting your car dialed in to where it suits your ability will result in a car that you can drive at 8 or 9/10's and run faster than you used to at full tilt. Being comfortable is a big factor. I'll be interested to see just how much faster you can get with a properly set up car and the same skills behind the wheel.



I just got a reminder that you're never too old.... My little buddy Pierre (77) just called and came over and loaded up my air driven hydraulic transmission jack.. He's working on his '57 Chevy project which is ready to go to upholstery next week.

What Ron was/is helping with is exactly as you describe.... getting the car "right" -- so it's easier and more fun to drive... which resulted - with the same loose nut behind the wheel - in dropping 12 seconds per lap. Same everything else except tire pressures got right - which made the car feel and grip better - raising confidence and consistency in the corners... and getting the brake more balanced (using his ears - and temps - and questioning me).

The CAR is capable of running 2.04's.... The DRIVER might be - but doesn't care. I just want to run 2.10's like Charley does all day long.

What I found -- and the more I watch the one and only video I took during the weekend is -- I can catch the guys at any time... even if I let 'em go I can reel 'em back in within a couple turns.... but what I was noticing is that the brakes just weren't working well... I'd have to pump 'em to get the pedal back... or I'd experience rear wheel hop if I jumped on 'em etc. SO that's what we're working on now for Sonoma.

After that - we'll work on installing a full floater - Race rotors (rears are but the fronts are performance street)... and, for safety - the larger race size bearings. And of course some shocks or shock adjustments. Most likely this will be a replacement upgrade item. Then I'm done. It's just get these few things dialed in and then just keep getting some seat time.

I was talking to DBasher the other day when he came over -- and I said that I'd like to do more track days... BUT -- big BUTT -- I wasn't really comfortable going out on my own without all my "support group" like Charley and Mike and Chet etc around to lean on. Once the car is right - and I know what is what... Then I can become more independent and start running at different tracks etc. So that's the goal.

[GregWeld]

The tweaking was the part I enjoyed about my car more than anything except for the using. It's really incremental.



I didn't TWEAK because I don't - or didn't / still learning - what to tweak and when - and what difference that makes etc. THUS RON SUTTON school of tweaks.

[Ron Sutton]

The tweaking was the part I enjoyed about my car more than anything except for the using. It's really incremental.

You make a very good point. Getting your car dialed in to where it suits your ability will result in a car that you can drive at 8 or 9/10's and run faster than you used to at full tilt. Being comfortable is a big factor. I'll be interested to see just how much faster you can get with a properly set up car and the same skills behind the wheel.

Todd's always on track. :thumbsup:

Greg's goal is to have more fun. So that has been my focus. We're making the car work better for how he wants to drive it. Not once at the track did I say to Greg ... "use more track", "change your line", "drive in deeper," etc. We're just focused on on increasing the driver's sensory input, being smooth with all the driver input mechanisms to keep the tires "happy" & enjoying the time on track more.

My goal with the car is to optimize it so it's consistent, predictable & doesn't doing anything surprisingly evil. It has before and it's not much fun driving fast on a real race track with other cars around you if you're not confident in the car. Scaring yourself trying to keep up with the pack is not fun.

It is a LOT of fun if you can drive your hot rod at 9/10 lap after lap with all the adrenaline and no peed pants. I believe the fun is from driving fast, passing some cars, hanging with the group you want to on track and having a sense of accomplishment that you did it. The fast laps in the 2:08 to 2:10 range are icing on the cake. For track day events, lap times are something to BS about in the pits ... or the forum ... but the fun is on track.

I've seen cars at the track that are so ill handling, if you drive them at the pace of the other cars, you're trying to save your life almost every corner. That's not fun. The way the car was handling before ... with lower tire grip & 40/60 F'd up brake balance... if you tried to drive it to a 2:08-2:10 you would have spun off track back end first. The set-up simply wasn't capable. Charley ran 2:09's & 2:10's every session like clockwork. That looked fun. With the stuff we improved at T-Hill, now Greg can run with Charley occasionally without killing himself.

We're only making small changes before Sonoma. Better brake balance, so Greg can use the brakes more & tires that come in quicker. That car has more speed potential in it, but my focus will be to make it easier & more fun to drive.

[GregWeld]

I know we've jacked Gaetano's thread.... but as long as he doesn't care (hasn't texted me that I'm a butthead YET!) I'll post one more.... Besides that - he's out at Thunderhill running Time Trials today... So doesn't even know yet!! LOL


Part of MY GOAL is to help others learn from what I'm doing. Yes - what Todd said is true... I now have a professional in my crew... OKAY -- So what! Yeah I can afford to do that.

Here's what OTHERS can learn from this... which is mostly why I'm pursuing the discussion in the way that I am. HAVING THAT EXPERT ADVICE is so friggin' beneficial for so many GREAT REASONS.... like NOT WRECKING... HAVING MORE FUN.... KEEPING UP WITH THE PACK -- WHILE NOT DRIVING HARD...

This is why I've said many times -- that this is the BEST MONEY I'VE EVER SPENT ON A CAR. I had most all the parts.... what was missing was all the parts working well together. That takes (as I've now learned) a lot of info!

What RON SUTTON has brought to the track is the expertise to be able to read - and discuss - and diagnose QUICKLY what is going on... and how to fix it. In one stinking weekend HE knocked off 12 SECONDS per lap!

How much money do you guys want to piss away buying this or trying that or upgrading this or that -- only to find out you didn't gain much. AND YOU'RE DRIVING YOUR ASS OFF OVER YOUR HEAD...

Some measurements - a little discussing - some THOUGHT PROCESS to the driver before going out... so I could actually think about what Ron had asked of me... and BINGO! Car is more fun - faster - easier... less abusive to parts. WTF is not to like about that scenario?

Is it "expensive"?? Yeah - I guess - relatively.... But where I'm going with this is -- the sport is "expensive" doing nothing! Tires - brakes - wheels - motors - transmissions... shocks... ALL THAT STUFF is expensive... YET we don't think twice about it because it's all the cool stuff! AND WE WANT IT.

So where I went was --- bring in a PRO that's going to make my time and expense WORTH IT. Worth it - is MORE FUN - EASIER - Less abuse... OVER A VERY LONG TIME... so I "budgeted" this year to bring Ron in -- get squared away quickly and efficiently and be able to then move on. What I'm learning will transfer to any car - any track - any time - hot day - cold day - light car - heavy car... big motor or 1.8 liter Toyota.

I look at it as how much more fun and dialed in my car will be -- so I can go to the track and concentrate on my line and enjoyment












Todd's always on track. :thumbsup:

Greg's goal is to have more fun. So that has been my focus. We're making the car work better for how he wants to drive it. Not once at the track did I say to Greg ... "use more track", "change your line", "drive in deeper," etc. We're just focused on on increasing the driver's sensory input, being smooth with all the driver input mechanisms to keep the tires "happy" & enjoying the time on track more.

My goal with the car is to optimize it so it's consistent, predictable & doesn't doing anything surprisingly evil. It has before and it's not much fun driving fast on a real race track with other cars around you if you're not confident in the car. Scaring yourself trying to keep up with the pack is not fun.

It is a LOT of fun if you can drive your hot rod at 9/10 lap after lap with all the adrenaline and no peed pants. I believe the fun is from driving fast, passing some cars, hanging with the group you want to on track and having a sense of accomplishment that you did it. The fast laps in the 2:08 to 2:10 range are icing on the cake. For track day events, lap times are something to BS about in the pits ... or the forum ... but the fun is on track.

I've seen cars at the track that are so ill handling, if you drive them at the pace of the other cars, you're trying to save your life almost every corner. That's not fun. The way the car was handling before ... with lower tire grip & 40/60 F'd up brake balance... if you tried to drive it to a 2:08-2:10 you would have spun off track back end first. The set-up simply wasn't capable. Charley ran 2:09's & 2:10's every session like clockwork. That looked fun. With the stuff we improved at T-Hill, now Greg can run with Charley occasionally without killing himself.

We're only making small changes before Sonoma. Better brake balance, so Greg can use the brakes more & tires that come in quicker. That car has more speed potential in it, but my focus will be to make it easier & more fun to drive.

[Vegas69]

This is some of the best advice that's ever been written on this forum. What's the old saying, "Make the best of what you've got".

It's all in the details. Plus, it will be more fun to out run guys with MORE car. Like Dave and Gaetano. :D

[Sieg]

Considering the amount of time energy and money spent vs the actual number of "hot" laps you get in two days, being properly prepared can significantly increase your percentage of hot laps. Having the right tire for your car and driving style may deliver the largest increase of all.

Being a newb at T-Hill to auto events and only having motorcycle events to compare against, what I observed was:


Cars require significantly more equipment, size of trailers, tools and accessories, spare parts, etc.

Fuel and tire expenses are at least 5x's

Higher maintenance due to wearing out parts such as brake pads, bearings, and oil change volume.

Percentage of good laps is significantly less due to traffic and passing restrictions.

The actual number of laps on track in a session is less due to staging time. Bikes pack up tight and get out fast. When you only have 20 minutes per session every one counts. For comparison bike events usually get 7 sessions per day at T-Hill.


Anything you can do to increase your hot laps adds to the enjoyment factor per dollar.

FWIW - I estimate the two meatball flags reduced my total laps by 15%.

A properly prepared car with happy tires equal a happy driver come Sunday afternoon!

[GregWeld]

This is some of the best advice that's ever been written on this forum. What's the old saying, "Make the best of what you've got".

It's all in the details. Plus, it will be more fun to out run guys with MORE car. Like Dave and Gaetano. :D


The plan is to have the car be capable of 2.05's -- and run 2.09's.... on cruise mode... Then pass those two fat tired big motor'd pigs like they're chained to the K wall.

They'll spend all afternoon under a hot car dialing two clicks here and letting out half piss of air... while I sit in my chair drinking tonics.


HA!!

[fleetus macmullitz]

97xrot0FW8A

[Vegas69]

The plan is to have the car be capable of 2.05's -- and run 2.09's.... on cruise mode... Then pass those two fat tired big motor'd pigs like they're chained to the K wall.

They'll spend all afternoon under a hot car dialing two clicks here and letting out half piss of air... while I sit in my chair drinking tonics.


HA!!

I just hope you get the chance....:D

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I know we've jacked Gaetano's thread.... but as long as he doesn't care (hasn't texted me that I'm a butthead YET!) I'll post one more.... Besides that - he's out at Thunderhill running Time Trials today... So doesn't even know yet!! LOL



I know he don't give a crap about that but next time post a vid of something to distract him.

He is having fun....4 sessions and no breakage. YEAH FOR ME!!!

Hasn't got the time from session 4 but so far he's @ 2:06 on crappy brakes. Something we will address before Sonoma.

[Sieg]

I know he don't give a crap about that but next time post a vid of something to distract him.

He is having fun....4 sessions and no breakage. YEAH FOR ME!!!

Hasn't got the time from session 4 but so far he's @ 2:06 on crappy brakes. Something we will address before Sonoma.

Taa Dah! Go Vince! :thumbsup:

All this hoopla and we neglected to address the brakes? :sieg:

:bitchslap:

[Track Junky]

Whats up fellas. Great time today. Car handled flawlessly. The shocks Ron Sutton hooked me up with are the bomb!! They were set and forget. The 295's up front never rubbed but one of the rear 315's very slightly rubbing quarter panel. Not even enough to cause any tire damage or have any effect on air pressures.
This was my first time on Hoosiers and this is what I learned.......Do not go by Hoosiers recommended air pressure settings. Also, the veteran Hoosier users told me not to be concerned with heat cycling them.
First session out I went with Hoosiers recommended air pressure setting and the car was way free. Checked tire temps, dropped pressures a bit, and went out the second session. Not much difference so before I went out 3rd session I talked to Karl Chicca and Kevin Smith among a few others that consistently run Hoosiers . Karl even brought his log book for his '69 Camaro so that I could see the numbers for myself. The consensus was 30 lbs hot with everyone I talked to running the same size tire. Keep in mind these pressures may be different for smaller sized tires. Everyone I talked to ran from 275's to 315's.
I was only able to manage 2:06's today all due to not having enough front brake. Had to start braking way before my typical braking zone but I ran all four sessions anyways just to work on my line.
Also, props to Vince for the great work. Next on the list....pads and rotors. Need to do homework on the rotors but Karl advised that I use the Hawk DTC70's.

[GregWeld]

Whats up fellas. Great time today. Car handled flawlessly. The shocks Ron Sutton hooked me up with are the bomb!! They were set and forget. The 295's up front never rubbed but one of the rear 315's very slightly rubbing quarter panel. Not even enough to cause any tire damage or have any effect on air pressures.
This was my first time on Hoosiers and this is what I learned.......Do not go by Hoosiers recommended air pressure settings. Also, the veteran Hoosier users told me not to be concerned with heat cycling them.
First session out I went with Hoosiers recommended air pressure setting and the car was way free. Checked tire temps, dropped pressures a bit, and went out the second session. Not much difference so before I went out 3rd session I talked to Karl Chicca and Kevin Smith among a few others that consistently run Hoosiers . Karl even brought his log book for his '69 Camaro so that I could see the numbers for myself. The consensus was 30 lbs hot with everyone I talked to running the same size tire. Keep in mind these pressures may be different for smaller sized tires. Everyone I talked to ran from 275's to 315's.
I was only able to manage 2:06's today all due to not having enough front brake. Had to start braking way before my typical braking zone but I ran all four sessions anyways just to work on my line.
Also, props to Vince for the great work. Next on the list....pads and rotors. Need to do homework on the rotors but Karl advised that I use the Hawk DTC70's.




Those are what I'm TAKING OFF.....



HAHAHAHAHAHA -- but I've watch Karl's video's and he drives "just a bit" differently Than I do.

[Track Junky]

Those are what I'm TAKING OFF.....

HAHAHAHAHAHA -- but I've watch Karl's video's and he drives "just a bit" differently Than I do.

So what is it you don't like about them Greg?

[Sieg]

Sounds like a decent "maiden" voyage. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

So what is it you don't like about them Greg?



They didn't work worth a damn.... and they could only be a part of the problem -- but that pad's working temp is far higher than where I was driving..

The DTC70 has a heat range of 800 to 1200 degrees -- That was higher than where my brakes were coming in at. Which means the 70's weren't working that well. So Ron has a different pad coming -- The Wilwood A's for front and B's for rear.

[Flash68]

Glad you had a good day G. What were Karl's times today? Did Dave drive that car too?

I know he don't give a crap about that but next time post a vid of something to distract him.

He is having fun....4 sessions and no breakage. YEAH FOR ME!!!

Hasn't got the time from session 4 but so far he's @ 2:06 on crappy brakes. Something we will address before Sonoma.

6pm and the excuses are already out. :lol:

So what is it you don't like about them Greg?

Come on you know how it works now.. Sutton told him to not use those anymore. :rules:

[GregWeld]

Come on you know how it works now.. Sutton told him to not use those anymore. :rules:



Just a minute -- I have to confer with my manager!


Yep -- it's all about the science of actually measuring things and then buying parts that work with the science. Yippeeeeeeeee

[Vegas69]

Same configuration Greg ran two weekends ago?

[Track Junky]

Glad you had a good day G. What were Karl's times today? Did Dave drive that car too?

Karl said he blew the LS up at Sonoma recently. Car is on hold for now.

[Flash68]

Same configuration Greg ran two weekends ago?

Nope.

Karl said he blew the LS up at Sonoma recently. Car is on hold for now.

Dang. Shoulda stuck with good ole proven old school stuff eh. That sucks. That motor is only about 6 months old or something.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Old School New school they all need special attention and a regular tear down inspection. It happens.

[Flash68]

Old School New school they all need special attention and a regular tear down inspection. It happens.

You know I was kidding. They don't short cut over there @ Life's Good Racing. It was a crate motor from Schwanke (not cheap at all).

[GregWeld]

Same configuration Greg ran two weekends ago?




Todd -- It's really hard to figure out what the split is between the two configurations. Most folks just factor about 3 or 4 seconds faster for the bypass config. But - always the big butt - I've found track records with as little as 1 second difference.

If we just invoke the Andy Sutak rule -- it's 7 seconds. Close enough for government work. That puts Gaetano right there with "us". I should have added that he is the track record holder in every configuration - CW and CCW - with and without The Cyclone (aka The Crows Nest).

If you haven't seen an Andy Sutak Thunderhill video - or any of his videos - just YouTube the guy. He's holy smoking crack fast.

NASA TT track record holder in CLASS A (I don't know the HP/Weight rules in this class) -- running with the Cyclone -- in a 2006 Mustang is 2:10.077

I couldn't find a NASA TT time with the bypass for any car that I would think is "similar"... that have a posted track record.

My point is -- there's no set time you can assign for the difference in the two track configs... The generally accepted rule I always heard was 3 to 4 seconds - but I think it's more than that based on most of my homework with similar cars to what we are running.... yet I've also found track record holders running in the 1.40's with as little as a 1 second difference. Obviously those are very fast cars with very accomplished drivers - so that may account for the smaller split. IDK.

Seems to me he's doing pretty dang well.

[Ron Sutton]

The plan is to have the car be capable of 2.05's -- and run 2.09's.... on cruise mode... Then pass those two fat tired big motor'd pigs like they're chained to the K wall.

They'll spend all afternoon under a hot car dialing two clicks here and letting out half piss of air... while I sit in my chair drinking tonics.


HA!!

Hey ! Don't forget you're cooking lunch ! :lol:

[Ron Sutton]

Old School New school they all need special attention and a regular tear down inspection. It happens.


Yup, yup ... sure does. These powerful engines can not be treated like a plug-n-play toaster. They require TLC.

[Track Junky]

Hey ! Don't forget you're cooking lunch ! :lol:





Gregs covering lunch at Sonoma? Nice!! Thanks Greg. :thumbsup:

[Damn True]

Gregs covering lunch at Sonoma? Nice!! Thanks Greg. :thumbsup:

Just tell the Thubderhill grill that you want to put it on Weld's tab.

[GregWeld]

Just tell the Thubderhill grill that you want to put it on Weld's tab.



I should have the American Express Platinum cards for everyone by then.

[Ron in SoCal]

I should have the American Express Platinum cards for everyone by then. ^ great comeback Greg hahahaa...

Might as well buy everyone new racecars while you're at it :lol:

:cheers:

[GregWeld]

^ great comback Greg hahahaa...

Might as well buy everyone new racecars while you're at it :lol:

:cheers:




Charley hasn't said "I need to".

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Taa Dah! Go Vince! :thumbsup:

All this hoopla and we neglected to address the brakes? :sieg:

:bitchslap:

We thought we could get a few more from them.

Im looking at a C6 caliper and Z51 rotor kit for him over his current C4 based brakes. The difference in the pad and rotor size alone should be a great help.

A few years ago I made an adapter bracket and just have to get it laser cut. His existing hub should do...we may look to Tobin at Kore3.com for a billet hub and 1/2" studs. Its such a nice easy upgrade.

Then I'll make a rotor cooling deflectors. I haven't found a reliabe way to run cooling ducts and survive anything larger than 255's. Blowing $185 each time I try isn't helping me at all.

[GregWeld]

Run the ducts via the frame horns -- in the front / out the sides to the rotors...



Didn't you see the thread on Steilows car? Was clever as hell!!

[Vince@Meanstreets]

On a straight through design yes but a large feat on a 1st gen frame. I have seen it done before on 2nd gen frames.

We have done the cooling deflectors before and it works well and fairly quick and inexpensive to build.

[Sieg]

We thought we could get a few more from them.

Im looking at a C6 caliper and Z51 rotor kit for him over his current C4 based brakes. The difference in the pad and rotor size alone should be a great help.

A few years ago I made an adapter bracket and just have to get it laser cut. His existing hub should do...we may look to Tobin at Kore3.com for a billet hub and 1/2" studs. Its such a nice easy upgrade.

Then I'll make a rotor cooling deflectors. I haven't found a reliabe way to run cooling ducts and survive anything larger than 255's. Blowing $185 each time I try isn't helping me at all.

Run the ducts via the frame horns -- in the front / out the sides to the rotors...

Didn't you see the thread on Steilows car? Was clever as hell!!

I'd definitely call Tobin at Kore3. I was just up there last week inspecting his new shop. He's a great guy and an engineer by trade.....so he understands friction and pressure. He may also be able to assist with your bracket design/build. He's also very practical, so you'll to get what you need vs the newest latest and greatest.

Utilizing the frame horns for brake ducts is such a KISS move, when I saw that on Mark's new build I was............:sieg:

[GregWeld]

Vince ---


I sent a copy of a spread sheet that Ron Sutton Race Technologies worked out on my Mustang - we have the exact same brake system... Baer 2 piston front with an 12" rotor - and C4 single piston 12" rotor rear...

The brake torque using the Hawk DTC70 pads front and rear is 2515 torque

Keeping the exact same brakes but running the less CoF pad - Wilwood "A" pad in front and Wilwood "B" pad rear -- gives me 3074 torque

It might seem bassakwards -- but by going to a smaller front rotor - the Baer 4 piston with an 11" rotor and running the Hawk DTC 70 pad brings the torque to 2957

So as you can see -- by just changing the pads I can get more torque out of the same system.

That is not to say some major brake upgrades are not in the works for the old gal!!! Just saying that there are simple ways for people to upgrade their performance if they use some science over just throwing parts at stuff.

My thought is - that if he was just killin' our times then he might need way larger brakes --- but Charley is running rear DRUMS and is killin' it lap after lap while he's sipping Martini's and eating Bon-Bons.

[Track Junky]

Were going to have to save this upgrade for later. I ordered pads and rotors last night.
I did a lot of research and it appears the C4 set up really isn't that bad especially if your running a lighter car. It appears that they were prone to spreading and the way to tell if your caliper has spread is the the pad will wear at an angle from front to back or back to front.
There are also C4 calipers that were not prone to spreading because of the way they were cast. The C4 calipers from Baer(which are the ones I'm using) are not prone to spreading(from what I read) but if they are I will find out shortly because the pads I was using had such a strong bite I can hear and feel the rotors screaming for mercy not to mention the heat checking in them that I had never noticed before.
As far as rotors go I had talked to a guy at the NASA event that told me that he had gone to a Stop Tech rotor that had been treated through a heat and cold process among other treatments(don't remember the exact details) and that these rotors withstood major abuse with no heat checking and for my car through tire rack were only $127 a pop. That is a great price. Not sure how many of you have shopped race rotors but I have seen them from $650 and up.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

A pad and rotor change would be the easiest route.

You are thinking of the cryo treatment.

[Track Junky]

A pad and rotor change would be the easiest route.

Time will tell Vince. The bigger Hoosiers up front with a good set of pads and rotors are going to tax the front end quite a bit........hubs, bearings, and control arm bushings are the first things that come to mind.

Yup. Cryo treatmeant.

[GregWeld]

Time will tell Vince. The bigger Hoosiers up front with a good set of pads and rotors are going to tax the front end quite a bit........hubs, bearings, and control arm bushings are the first things that come to mind.

Yup. Cryo treatmeant.




You'll be "Cryo" after Sonoma - but I digress (Gaetano - that means I'm off subject)...



When I heard the ratings on the various BEARINGS (wheel) I was shocked! My little bearings are good for like 950 -- and with some calculating Ron thinks I'm probably hammering with 1100 or 1200.... and the big race bearings we'll switch to will handle 1800ish


So I can't remember what the numbers represented... torque or what... I just remember that my little bitty bearings aren't good for the pressures we're running at.

It's kinda like the oil pan for the Lotus --- once we put sticky tires on it - I had to get an oil pan with baffling! With the poopie tires you couldn't corner hard enough to cause the oil to climb.

Well --- I'm thinking you're in that situation with the brakes Gaetano --- now you're running Hoosiers... big fat ones I might add (building evidence for later if his times are better than mine! LOL) you're cornering entry speeds can handle more -- and you'll be able to brake harder later... and you're going to run into that bearing load issue with those HUGE by WIDE big FAT super sticky Hoosiers (remember this conversation guys!).

[Track Junky]

Agreed. I have been looking into hubs and bearings also. The two brands that seem to come up are SKF and Timken. I will keep them in mind and at the same time plant the seed in Vinces head so that he can help me make a good decision based on what will apply to my existing set up. We'll also keep this season light with just 3 events in anticipation of making it to next season with the addition of Ronnie and Dave to the group.

[GregWeld]

Agreed. I have been looking into hubs and bearings also. The two brands that seem to come up are SKF and Timken. I will keep them in mind and at the same time plant the seed in Vinces head so that he can help me make a good decision based on what will apply to my existing set up. We'll also keep this season light with just 3 events in anticipation of making it to next season with the addition of Ronnie and Dave to the group.



Do either one have a car? Been so long I've forgotten....

[Vince@Meanstreets]

We know which direction we need to go...its just what we can do within his budget. I can only eat so much.

The Hoosiers were a surprise to me. That wasn't supposed to happen till after this season.

Spindles, steering arms, bearings and suspension bushings are on the check list.

stay tuned as we will all be doing our homework.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Agreed. I have been looking into hubs and bearings also. The two brands that seem to come up are SKF and Timken. I will keep them in mind and at the same time plant the seed in Vinces head so that he can help me make a good decision based on what will apply to my existing set up. We'll also keep this season light with just 3 events in anticipation of making it to next season with the addition of Ronnie and Dave to the group.

Not really the brand as much as maintenence, grease, pre load and inspection I feel is more important.

Each time your car comes in after a track event it goes up on the rack and the hubs are pre checked for free play, then torn down, the grease, bearings, races and spindle shafts are inspected. Its part of my Track-Pak inspection.

As of last inspection everything looked good.

Grease, We look for grease blow out, cook off and general condition.
Bearings and races we look for discoloration and pitting.
Spindle shaft we look for cracking, discoloration and galling.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

You'll be "Cryo" after Sonoma - but I digress (Gaetano - that means I'm off subject)...



When I heard the ratings on the various BEARINGS (wheel) I was shocked! My little bearings are good for like 950 -- and with some calculating Ron thinks I'm probably hammering with 1100 or 1200.... and the big race bearings we'll switch to will handle 1800ish


So I can't remember what the numbers represented... torque or what... I just remember that my little bitty bearings aren't good for the pressures we're running at.

It's kinda like the oil pan for the Lotus --- once we put sticky tires on it - I had to get an oil pan with baffling! With the poopie tires you couldn't corner hard enough to cause the oil to climb.

Well --- I'm thinking you're in that situation with the brakes Gaetano --- now you're running Hoosiers... big fat ones I might add (building evidence for later if his times are better than mine! LOL) you're cornering entry speeds can handle more -- and you'll be able to brake harder later... and you're going to run into that bearing load issue with those HUGE by WIDE big FAT super sticky Hoosiers (remember this conversation guys!).

The GM outer bearings are just tiny, I remember a thread with forces listed. I cannot find it now. I believe it was when Pozzi was addressing the short spindle failures.


Greg, I remember the thread and Rons listing for brake forces. I think it was Rons thread.

[GregWeld]

Not really the brand as much as maintenence, grease, pre load and inspection I feel is more important.

Each time your car comes in after a track event it goes up on the rack and the hubs are pre checked for free play, then torn down, the grease, bearings, races and spindle shafts are inspected. Its part of my Track-Pak inspection.

As of last inspection everything looked good.

Grease, We look for grease blow out, cook off and general condition.
Bearings and races we look for discoloration and pitting.
Spindle shaft we look for cracking, discoloration and galling.




I just did all of this and really expected the bearings to have some issues... but they looked (after I degreased 'em) real good - we're talking inner and outer here - they ran and felt smooth - and the races weren't discolored or galled or any metal dust anywhere... I packed 'em full of synthetic grease -- put new seals in... and re-installed 'em back on the spiffy, cleaned to the ninth degree, spindles.

Really glad i did this nasty little job because the grease was definitely "cooked" off... Not dry - but definitely was ready to be cleaned up and gone.

[Ron Sutton]

The GM outer bearings are just tiny, I remember a thread with forces listed. I cannot find it now. I believe it was when Pozzi was addressing the short spindle failures.


Greg, I remember the thread and Rons listing for brake forces. I think it was Rons thread.

Hey Guys,

A post I did on bearing thrust load capacities is here (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=42467&page=8).


A post showing my new Track-Star hubs & the bearing size differences start on THIS PAGE (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=42467&page=43). Be sure to read from post #427 to post #438.

The size & mass of the bearings define their ability to handle thrust loads ... and heat. A front hub bearing is a lot like a brake rotor. The larger it is the better its mass can handle the heat generated. The smaller it is, the higher the temps get & you get grease burn out.


The photos below show the sizes of bearings for reference.

Far left: Timken LM11949 rated at 917# thrust load. (Most GM 58-78, Ford 55-69 & Chrysler 55-72)
2nd from left: Timken LM12748 or LM12749 rated at 922# thrust load. (GM 82+, Ford 70-89)
3rd from left: Timken LM12649 rated at 1130# thrust load. (GM B-body & 1/2T trucks & Ford some HD apps 63-72)
Far right: Timken 2687 rated at 1800# thrust load. (Road Course & Oval Race Cars)

[Ron in SoCal]

Do either one have a car? Been so long I've forgotten....

We're expecting a celebrity guest appearance too! :D

[GregWeld]

Never thought I'd ever have BEARING ENVY...


I will upgrade to all this stuff on the Mustang after the August Sonoma event... that way Ron Sutton (I have to include his name lest you guys think I'm taking Ron in So Cals advice for something... hahahahahaha) will have had a chance to really look see at the underpinnings in case there's anything else that should be done.


Again - since lots of people read this stuff..... There's nothing "wrong" with the Mustang the way it is... BUT!! As Ron helps me dial this car in - the speeds and corner loads increase.... and I'm no engineer - but I think they probably grow A LOT as you increase the speeds. I'm going to ASSume that the braking loads increase - as you go deeper into a corner at a higher speed -- which is going to ADD HEAT to the equation... and as I go faster / harder - then the tires start to heat up and on and on. So what's good at one/some point -- it becomes a liability at another.

We all love to buy parts! And we all want to have bragging rights for this wheel or this tire - or this big brake kit..... I've just never given any thoughts to the other little parts that might actually matter. Bearing failure in a high speed corner is not an option!

[Track Junky]

Thanks for the info Ron. :thumbsup:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Never thought I'd ever have BEARING ENVY...


I will upgrade to all this stuff on the Mustang after the August Sonoma event... that way Ron Sutton (I have to include his name lest you guys think I'm taking Ron in So Cals advice for something... hahahahahaha) will have had a chance to really look see at the underpinnings in case there's anything else that should be done.


Again - since lots of people read this stuff..... There's nothing "wrong" with the Mustang the way it is... BUT!! As Ron helps me dial this car in - the speeds and corner loads increase.... and I'm no engineer - but I think they probably grow A LOT as you increase the speeds. I'm going to ASSume that the braking loads increase - as you go deeper into a corner at a higher speed -- which is going to ADD HEAT to the equation... and as I go faster / harder - then the tires start to heat up and on and on. So what's good at one/some point -- it becomes a liability at another.

We all love to buy parts! And we all want to have bragging rights for this wheel or this tire - or this big brake kit..... I've just never given any thoughts to the other little parts that might actually matter. Bearing failure in a high speed corner is not an option! I guess you will have to see if it needs an upgrade or not. I'm not sure how many options you have for larger capacity hubs but the nice thing is it will warn you, you just have to know what to watch for.

Thanks Ron,
I will continue to monitor Gaetanos bearing packs. If I see any signs of abnormal wearing or grease failure we will look at a different hub and or spindle.

[Sieg]

Hey Guys, A front hub bearing is a lot like a brake rotor. The larger it is the better its mass can handle the heat generated. The smaller it is, the higher the temps get & you get grease burn out.


Exhibit B:

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t31.0-8/10256030_10154231236225078_6643403016175362442_o.j pg

[Ron Sutton]

I guess you will have to see if it needs an upgrade or not. I'm not sure how many options you have for larger capacity hubs but the nice thing is it will warn you, you just have to know what to watch for.

Thanks Ron,
I will continue to monitor Gaetanos bearing packs. If I see any signs of abnormal wearing or grease failure we will look at a different hub and or spindle.

Hey Vince & G ... and anyone running fast at track days on a budget ... the best advice I have for you is "clean, inspect, grease & replace often." Vince is already on this, but I don't want anyone following along to not understand how key that is.

Replace the outer bearings often ... they're cheap ... and when you replace them, make damn sure you're buying Timken & not some import bearing made with inferior steel. There is a difference in the quality of Timken steel. If Timken's bearing is rated at 917# ... what is a $7.99 china bearing made out of pot metal rated at? :confused59:

For reference, I raced in an oval track series (West Coast NASCAR Modifieds) that required stock spindles & hubs (rules to control costs - LOL). These cars were light ... 2550# & ran 8" slicks of moderate hard compound ... on short tracks where cornering speeds were 50-55 mph. So less car weight, less grip & less load forces than we see with big tired PT cars at road course track days.

When we ran Granada hubs (2nd bearing from the left) we replaced the outer bearings after every 2-day event. When we stepped up to the Impala hubs (3rd bearing from the left) we replaced them after every 2nd event. The reason is, these bearings are not rated for the loads they are seeing.

On the stock cars ... with softer, bigger 10" slicks ... more weight 3100-3400# ... ran on bigger tracks with higher corner speeds & g-forces ... we run the bearings on the far right. We run the car all season & only replace the bearings after a full season of 25-30 events. They last, because we're within the load window the bearings were designed for.

Guys, my recommendation is, to those of us building these cars to be fast like race cars, driving them fast on race tracks ... we also build in safety like race cars ... AND ... service & maintain them often like race teams do ... to prevent bearing & other part failures that cause crashes.


:cheers:

[Vegas69]

Ron, Where does the C5/C6/Z06 Etc. sealed bearing assembly fit into this equation? The GM guys have the luxury of going with a ATS spindle that utilizes a c6 bearing pack. I know mine were still tight when I sold my car. Not that much road racing time, however.

[SSLance]

Exhibit B:

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t31.0-8/10256030_10154231236225078_6643403016175362442_o.j pg



I saw that in person Saturday night and it was IMPRESSIVE!!!

[GregWeld]

Just the fact that we're having a discussion about bearings -- and temperatures -- and service items...


Makes me wonder how many guys haven't checked this stuff at all - let alone after really pushing their cars hard.


I know for me -- I have a pretty decent shop and tons of time... so it's pretty easy for me to put this stuff up on the hoist and go over stuff. But I know if I had kids at home - and work - and house stuff to attend to - the car might just get parked in the garage and forgotten about until it's time to run again.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

That's why shops like mine exist. : )

I have a few customers that never knew how to check their oil levels.

[Track Junky]

I know if I had kids at home - and work - and house stuff to attend to - the car might just get parked in the garage and forgotten about until it's time to run again.

Great point Greg. Maintenance is extremely important.
My work day is 12 hours long. I have 3 kids, a wife, and on top of that I'm a landlord which sometimes takes up a day away from my weekends. I enjoy working on my car but realistically I don't have the time to give it the maintenance it needs.

Once again......Thanks Vince. :thumbsup:

[Ron Sutton]

Ron, Where does the C5/C6/Z06 Etc. sealed bearing assembly fit into this equation? The GM guys have the luxury of going with a ATS spindle that utilizes a c6 bearing pack. I know mine were still tight when I sold my car. Not that much road racing time, however.

Hey Todd,

They are a good option too. I covered it in another post. Go HERE (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=42467&page=45).. and scroll down to post #444.

:Cheers:

[intocarss]

Hey Guys,

A post I did on bearing thrust load capacities is here (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=42467&page=8).


A post showing my new Track-Star hubs & the bearing size differences start on THIS PAGE (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=42467&page=43). Be sure to read from post #427 to post #438.

The size & mass of the bearings define their ability to handle thrust loads ... and heat. A front hub bearing is a lot like a brake rotor. The larger it is the better its mass can handle the heat generated. The smaller it is, the higher the temps get & you get grease burn out.


The photos below show the sizes of bearings for reference.

Far left: Timken LM11949 rated at 917# thrust load. (Most GM 58-78, Ford 55-69 & Chrysler 55-72)
2nd from left: Timken LM12748 or LM12749 rated at 922# thrust load. (GM 82+, Ford 70-89)
3rd from left: Timken LM12649 rated at 1130# thrust load. (GM B-body & 1/2T trucks & Ford some HD apps 63-72)
Far right: Timken 2687 rated at 1800# thrust load. (Road Course & Oval Race Cars)


Interesting stuff.. I went and checked my bearings today. It has PN LSB M12649 outter bearings on it

[Flash68]

That's why shops like mine exist. : )

I have a few customers that never knew how to check their oil levels.


Have always appreciated your attention to detail and safety Vince. :thumbsup:

But why ya gotta talk about me on the internet like that? :innocent:


Interesting stuff.. I went and checked my bearings today. It has PN LSB M12649 outter bearings on it

Looks like you coulda done a lot worse Jer! :thumbsup:

See ya in August. :popcorn2:

[Track Junky]

See ya in August. :popcorn2:

You holding out Dawg? :poke:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Have always appreciated your attention to detail and safety Vince. :thumbsup:

But why ya gotta talk about me on the internet like that? :innocent:





I teach, they learn....well now you did it, I wasn't mentioning names.

You holding out Dawg? :poke: Sonoma? hello?

[intocarss]

Looks like you coulda done a lot worse Jer! :thumbsup:

See ya in August. :popcorn2:I'm not complaining 1130# is better then 922#:thumbsup: . We'll see about Sonoma. I will be at BW in Sept


You holding out Dawg? :poke: Would I do that :underchair:

[Ron in SoCal]

Hey Todd,

They are a good option too. I covered it in another post. Go HERE (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=42467&page=45).. and scroll down to post #444.

:Cheers:





Hey Ron,

To the best of my knowledge there are three C5/C6 hubs: the standard C6, the Z06 which LG Motorsports sells with the larger rear bearing and the ZR1 which I believe is still only available at the dealer. I could be wrong, but as far as I can tell the ZR1 is the same as the Z06 with the exception of the ABS sensor and inner spline count. Do you know if the load rating is any different for these hubs?

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Ron,

To the best of my knowledge there are three C5/C6 hubs: the standard C6, the Z06 which LG Motorsports sells with the larger rear bearing and the ZR1 which I believe is still only available at the dealer. I could be wrong, but as far as I can tell the ZR1 is the same as the Z06 with the exception of the ABS sensor and inner spline count. Do you know if the load rating is any different for these hubs?

Hey Ron,

Yes, in that bearing you're referring to, the outer bearing is larger than the inner bearing & it is stronger. This makes the hub rated higher overall. But the weakest bearing is always the bearing that fails, regardless if it's on the inside or outside. The small one in the Z51 bearing is the same size as before, rated at 1060#.

As I mentioned in a previous thread, the bearing engineer I work with said this bearing will wear quicker than the big bearing stuff we're used to racing. So if you check the wheel/hub play & it starts to show excessive, simply replace it. If that happens often, then maybe you need a stronger spindle/bearing/hub assembly. If not, you're probably fine.


:cheers:

[Track Junky]

Ron, can you find out if you can get me a good set of bearings for a C4 hub?

[Track Junky]

We'll see about Sonoma. I will be at BW in Sept

Cool. If my car doesn't brake before then I'll see you there. :thumbsup:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Ron, can you find out if you can get me a good set of bearings for a C4 hub?

You have a Baer hub which is basically a factory GM drum hub.

I remember a few years back...90's someone had a first gen hub that ran a larger outer bearing. I tried searching around but can't seem to find it here. I believe it was Herb Adams could be wrong.

Tobin makes a billet hub but I am unsure what bearings are used.

[Ron in SoCal]

Hey Ron,

Yes, in that bearing you're referring to, the outer bearing is larger than the inner bearing & it is stronger. This makes the hub rated higher overall. But the weakest bearing is always the bearing that fails, regardless if it's on the inside or outside. The small one in the Z51 bearing is the same size as before, rated at 1060#.

As I mentioned in a previous thread, the bearing engineer I work with said this bearing will wear quicker than the big bearing stuff we're used to racing. So if you check the wheel/hub play & it starts to show excessive, simply replace it. If that happens often, then maybe you need a stronger spindle/bearing/hub assembly. If not, you're probably fine.


:cheers:






Makes perfect sense Ron. Thank you Sir :thumbsup:

[rickpaw]

Tobin makes a billet hub but I am unsure what bearings are used.

Tobin uses stock replacement Timken bearings for his hubs.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Tobin uses stock replacement Timken bearings for his hubs.

Thanks Tu, I wasn't sure.

[Leroy Rochester]

You have a Baer hub which is basically a factory GM drum hub.

I remember a few years back...90's someone had a first gen hub that ran a larger outer bearing. I tried searching around but can't seem to find it here. I believe it was Herb Adams could be wrong.

Tobin makes a billet hub but I am unsure what bearings are used.

On my '67, Maeco used either second gen hubs or SCP hubs on a custom spindle that had the big outer bearing. At the time, Mike really felt that was critical on the race applications. I don't think I've ever seen a first gen throw a shoe though, but I'm sure it's been an issue here and there.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

On my '67, Maeco used either second gen hubs or SCP hubs on a custom spindle that had the big outer bearing. At the time, Mike really felt that was critical on the race applications. I don't think I've ever seen a first gen throw a shoe though, but I'm sure it's been an issue here and there.

Personally I haven't witnessed any failures on properly maintained cars. Most where due to neglect, lack of grease and improper free play.
Im not sure how long Gaetano went on his very first set before coming to me but there was a layer of dark grease at the outer bearing. I believe it was right after the 341. If he had a season on them its doing good. So far his bearings look fine but they normally get serviced 3 times a year.

[Leroy Rochester]

I was actually going to come back and mention that... I've seen a fair number of crazy failures of all types at HPDE events, but not on the vintage race cars.

We had to change the seals on the caliper pistons every session when I ran the J56 4 piston brakes on the front because I didn't have a set of the sexy insulated pistons (which is why we went to the CNC brakes fairly quickly!)...

I didn't mean to say that I hadn't seen it, to dismiss it. Just an off the top of the head comment and absolutely related to the level of maintenance that goes into running a heavy, high power race car.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I was actually going to come back and mention that... I've seen a fair number of crazy failures of all types at HPDE events, but not on the vintage race cars.

We had to change the seals on the caliper pistons every session when I ran the J56 4 piston brakes on the front because I didn't have a set of the sexy insulated pistons (which is why we went to the CNC brakes fairly quickly!)...

I didn't mean to say that I hadn't seen it, to dismiss it. Just an off the top of the head comment and absolutely related to the level of maintenance that goes into running a heavy, high power race car.

Yeah I got that. It maybe an overlooked service part. I am more concerned about spindle failure than bearing failure. He is running a lot faster now.

[Flash68]

Look who about has their new motor back in the car... they are shooting for June 15 @ Sonoma. :unibrow:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/10348605_615711661859215_3416273349004339142_n_zps 92e719a6.jpg (http://s236.photobucket.com/user/flash68/media/10348605_615711661859215_3416273349004339142_n_zps 92e719a6.jpg.html)

[Track Junky]

That would be cool. Last I talked to Carl Dave is supposed to ride with me and give me some tips. Hopefully that will happen.

[Flash68]

That's absolutely the 1st gen Camaro driver I'd be talking to!

That's because Sieg is unavailable of course.... ringer on Team Weld.

[Track Junky]

I picked up some poly carbonate material from tap plastics today and built my rear quarter windows. Tomorrow I'll put the new front rotors and pads on unless I get pulled away for some family activity.

Haven't been to Sonoma in 8 years so should be interesting.

[GregWeld]

That's absolutely the 1st gen Camaro driver I'd be talking to!

That's because Sieg is unavailable of course.... ringer on Team Weld.



Just as soon as I teach him how to find the rev limiter....

[GregWeld]

I picked up some poly carbonate material from tap plastics today and built my rear quarter windows. Tomorrow I'll put the new front rotors and pads on unless I get pulled away for some family activity.

Haven't been to Sonoma in 8 years so should be interesting.



You do know if you just ran a vintage Mustang -- they fixed that issue back in like '65....


See how that rear window is open up near the roof... creates a low pressure area and sucks all that high speed air right out! LOL

[Track Junky]

You do know if you just ran a vintage Mustang -- they fixed that issue back in like '65....


See how that rear window is open up near the roof... creates a low pressure area and sucks all that high speed air right out! LOL

Yeah, I really like that. Wonder if that would work for my car.

If its convenient enough for you can you post some pics of that rear window area.

[intocarss]

That's absolutely the 1st gen Camaro driver I'd be talking to!

That's because Sieg is unavailable of course.... ringer on Team Weld.

Just as soon as I teach him how to find the rev limiter.... Sieg= Sandbagger (racing):snapout:

Sandbagging describes someone who underperforms (usually deliberately) in an event. The term has multiple uses, such as a driver who competes in an event in a series below their level of expertise to finish high.[1] In bracket drag racing and short track racing when a racer has a dial-in time / qualifying speed much slower than the car can actually perform. The term can also be used to describe a fast driver who holds back during a race until just before the end, when they suddenly pass up through the field to win the event.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Yeah, I really like that. Wonder if that would work for my car.

If its convenient enough for you can you post some pics of that rear window area.

here you go

its flappin cause you don't have glass supports. high pressure low pressure differential.

[Sieg]

That's absolutely the 1st gen Camaro driver I'd be talking to!

That's because Sieg is unavailable of course.... ringer on Team Weld.
Ringer.......:wacko: :lmao:
Just as soon as I teach him how to find the rev limiter....
Rev limiter = Meatball Flag :badidea:
Sieg= Sandbagger (racing):snapout:

Sandbagging describes someone who underperforms (usually deliberately) in an event. The term has multiple uses, such as a driver who competes in an event in a series below their level of expertise to finish high.[1] In bracket drag racing and short track racing when a racer has a dial-in time / qualifying speed much slower than the car can actually perform. The term can also be used to describe a fast driver who holds back during a race until just before the end, when they suddenly pass up through the field to win the event.
Sieg = LOFT
That would be more accurate. (Lack of F'n Talent)
:D

[Track Junky]

here you go

its flappin cause you don't have glass supports. high pressure low pressure differential.

Yup, seen that. Weld sent me a link. You would think that rear glass would be flappin.

[fleetus macmullitz]

Sieg = LOFT
That would be more accurate. (Lack of F'n Talent)
:D

Nah, yer jes pacin' yerself cuz you know ya got all that latent talent on reserve...


:D

[GregWeld]

Yup, seen that. Weld sent me a link. You would think that rear glass would be flappin.



No flappin goin' on there at all.... and there's zero parachute effect. I think the low pressure area created over the roofline is the reason. If there's no pressure being built up "under" the lexan... then there's no buffeting like what would be felt if there was air pressure trying to find it's way and creating all manor of turbulence back there.

Mind you - the old clunky Camaro's may have a different issue compared to the sleek racing lines of the mighty Mustang...

[intocarss]

Ringer.......:wacko: :lmao:

Rev limiter = Meatball Flag :badidea:

Sieg = LOFT
That would be more accurate. (Lack of F'n Talent)
:D Just more sandbagging!!:RunninDog:

[GregWeld]

I'm going to buy this tomorrow to replace the low life foreigner.... We'll see how well he can handle it vs the go-kart.



http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/chevy/1383419533/1383419533la.htm

[DBasher]

AWESOME!
:thumbsup:

[fleetus macmullitz]

I'm going to buy this tomorrow to replace the low life foreigner.... We'll see how well he can handle it vs the go-kart.

http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/chevy/1383419533/1383419533la.htm

Mankar alert!

Could be a handful...lol

http://24.media.tumblr.com/71c9366c8ea7458824992e15b13340a4/tumblr_mga8dtZ2aZ1qmzxy4o1_500.gif

[intocarss]

^^^ HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII* that's really NICE, Congrats!!

[Sieg]

I'm going to buy this tomorrow to replace the low life foreigner.... We'll see how well he can handle it vs the go-kart.



http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/chevy/1383419533/1383419533la.htm

It has been built with thought.

That's comforting to know........:D

Has Charlie approved the purchase yet?

[GregWeld]

Well I was only half joking..... I still think the little British Go-Kart is perfect as a back up track car... But I am going down to look at it.

[Track Junky]

Holy Sh!#!! That is BAD ASS!! BUY IT!!:cheering:

[Track Junky]

Lost my train of thought after seeing that bad ass mamma jamma.

Spent a couple hours today replacing front pads and rotors. Dropped the car and torqued the front wheels. Went to the rear to torque the rear wheels just for good measure and noticed a shim of backing plate or something like that sliding away from the caliper. Don't think I'll look into that today. Probly do it next Friday after I pick up new rear pads but this is one of those instances where we're reminded to check our cars thoroughly after each track day.

[GregWeld]

Lost my train of thought after seeing that bad ass mamma jamma.

Spent a couple hours today replacing front pads and rotors. Dropped the car and torqued the front wheels. Went to the rear to torque the rear wheels just for good measure and noticed a shim of backing plate or something like that sliding away from the caliper. Don't think I'll look into that today. Probly do it next Friday after I pick up new rear pads but this is one of those instances where we're reminded to check our cars thoroughly after each track day.



Boy isn't that the truth!!!

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Lost my train of thought after seeing that bad ass mamma jamma.

Spent a couple hours today replacing front pads and rotors. Dropped the car and torqued the front wheels. Went to the rear to torque the rear wheels just for good measure and noticed a shim of backing plate or something like that sliding away from the caliper. Don't think I'll look into that today. Probly do it next Friday after I pick up new rear pads but this is one of those instances where we're reminded to check our cars thoroughly after each track day.

Most likely the stainless anti rattle shield that comes with the pads. You can glue them back on or remove them.

[intocarss]

Well I was only half joking..... I still think the little British Go-Kart is perfect as a back up track car... But I am going down to look at it.Then you're half way there to buying it.


You have the $$

You like Corvettes

Sieg needs something to drive

NOW just write the check :warning:
:animated_bye_bye_em

[Track Junky]

Most likely the stainless anti rattle shield that comes with the pads. You can glue them back on or remove them.

Thanks Vince. I'll check it out next Friday.

[GregWeld]

Most likely the stainless anti rattle shield that comes with the pads. You can glue them back on or remove them.




I don't understand how those would get loose from his brain....

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I don't understand how those would get loose from his brain....

He tends to run hot or it maybe all that space in the helmet.

[Track Junky]

I don't understand how those would get loose from his brain....

Really? I'm just going to keep you thinking about all the many directions I can go on this one with you. :lmao:

[Ron Sutton]

I don't understand how those would get loose from his brain....

Really? I'm just going to keep you thinking about all the many directions I can go on this one with you. :lmao:


This is like following a comedy series.

:popcorn2:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

your right, its the new Felix Unger and Oscar Madison show

[intocarss]

your right, its the new Felix Unger and Oscar Madison show

Which one are you??