An LS-2, Turbo vs. Supercharger

[tyoneal]

To all:

I've heard that a well built Twin Turbo LS-2 will make gobs of power and still get 20-25 MPG.

Is this not possible with a Supercharger. (Magnacharger, Procharger, or??)

The new Superchargers boast that they hardly take any power to run when cruising. Whether actually true or not, I don't have the experience to say one way or the other.

My Goals are 550-575 RWHP with possibly a 6L80e (When and if they can be programable and trick like the 4L80e's, a 6 Speed Shrifter would be cool)

Dependablity, and as good of mileage as possible (Maybe the same as turbo?)

Don't need huge power, or huge engine just a good dependable, street friendly etc. etc.

I've never seen the Shifter work, but I saw a special on the Ferrari Enzo. The paddle shifter on it look like it would be a blast. I realize that this is technically an apples and oranges comparison, but I'm trying to create a clear picture.

This is probably a pipe dream but a properly built twin turbo LSx can really add up quick. $25-$40K

There are a mess of Supercharger companies out there, and I just want to really understand how, or if I could rest these goals without a second mortgage on the house.

Can this be done? If so how, and with what parts?

I mentioned magna charger because I think I saw an add for putting one of their units on a LS-2 Vette and getting around 700 hp out of it.

I would really appreciate any and all thoughts on this idea. I know a BBC is easy and quick, but the new technology is just awesome and I would really like to buy/make the, "Perfect" combination for a very fun engine combination on the street and track and for Power Tour.

Thanks,

tyoneal

[Bowtieracing]

I love the racy look of big twin turbo system but i dont believe they will be ever be as debendable as simple supercharger.Heat issues are big factor,even the best build systems need a lot more attention. Offcourse 1000+ hp is something wich cant be made with any belt driven supercharger.

[californiacuda]

Here is some supercharger information, probably more than you want.

There generally 2 types of superchargers, positive displacement like Magnacharger, Whipple, Kenne Bell (these units sit directly on top of the intake manifold), or centrifugal like Procharger or Vortec which are located in the front of the engine in a location similar to the alternator or a/c unit.

The positive displacement sc companies have designed their units with a bypass valve that opens when the car is running in a vacuum condition. This bypass valve circulates the air that comes out of the compressed air end of the sc back to the intake, so that no boost is made and the sc is free wheeling and not taking much energy from the engine( less than 10 hp). Under acceleration the bypass valve is closed and the sc can make boost.

The positive displacement units are 1 of 2 design, either roots, or screw type. The screw type is generally considered to be more efficient.

A great feature of the positive displacement sc's is that they produce immediate, low rpm boost and massive torque. At lower speeds it is the torque that you feel in the seat of your pants when you accelerate.

The centrifugal sc's like the Pro Charger have tq and hp curves that are more similar to turbos. They don't come on as quickly as positive displacement, but will some times have more top end. I am not sure if the centrifugal units have bypass valves.

Superchargers are typically easier to install than turbos, less plumbing rework and simpler to operate. At full boost the sc's do rob the engine of hp to run them. So, when the dyno shows the engine making 600 hp, it is actually making 700, but a hundred is being taken away to run the sc.

Sorry for the long winded explanation, I just get wound up some times.

[Mizfit]

You should consider the following:

1.Horsepower and Torque Goals: Which you have 550-570. It is very easy to make this goal with a turbo supercharger or even an N/A 402-454 big cube LS1.

2.Time: How quick do you want your project finished. Superchargers are way easier to install and you can be one the road in no time. I am not saying that with a good turbo builder that you can't get it done quickly but overall it is more time consuming.

3. Price: Both can be close in price but on average the superchargers are way less in price. Like you stated turbo's can add up quickly. Magnacharger is built for stock displacement type LS1's. Where Kenne Bell and Whipple are for the bigger cube LS1's.

In conclusion:

*Superchargers are Cheap, Easy to install and make great power. Will absolutely meet your needs

*Turbo's: Expensive, Very impressive under the hood, more time consuming but make better power. Will meet and exceed your power goals.


Just my 2 cents.

Taylor
Mizfit MotorSports

PS- We went with a Kenne Bell on ours because they can make great power and look pretty badass in opinion. :thumbsup:

[Datsbad]

You should consider the following:

1.Horsepower and Torque Goals: Which you have 550-570. It is very easy to make this goal with a turbo supercharger or even an N/A 402-454 big cube LS1.

2.Time: How quick do you want your project finished. Superchargers are way easier to install and you can be one the road in no time. I am not saying that with a good turbo builder that you can't get it done quickly but overall it is more time consuming.

3. Price: Both can be close in price but on average the superchargers are way less in price. Like you stated turbo's can add up quickly. Magnacharger is built for stock displacement type LS1's. Where Kenne Bell and Whipple are for the bigger cube LS1's.

In conclusion:

*Superchargers are Cheap, Easy to install and make great power. Will absolutely meet your needs

*Turbo's: Expensive, Very impressive under the hood, more time consuming but make better power. Will meet and exceed your power goals.


Just my 2 cents.

Taylor
Mizfit MotorSports


Well said , I second this .

PS- We went with a Kenne Bell on ours because they can make great power and look pretty badass in opinion. :thumbsup:

Well said , I second this . I dont think a turbo is what you need for your goals

[chicane]

I just read an article in one of the late rags...

A KB SC on a GenIII LS2 made something like 770 hp at the fly... and the tuner stated that he could dial it into 790+ with some minor ECU tweaks.

I just cant remember if it was Car Crap or Hot Knob.

Dropping some positive displacement in should easily make your numbers. I myself would go air to H20, SC. No lag... torque everywhere... and bitchen MPG.

[Jr]

I just read an article in one of the late rags...

A KB SC on a GenIII LS2 made something like 770 hp at the fly... and the tuner stated that he could dial it into 790+ with some minor ECU tweaks.

I just cant remember if it was Car Crap or Hot Knob.

Dropping some positive displacement in should easily make your numbers. I myself would go air to H20, SC. No lag... torque everywhere... and bitchen MPG.


Was this the orange corvette? If so, it has a magnacharged 402ci ls motor.

[chicane]

Didnt state chassis or anything... it was still refering to flywheel numbers and tuning. Maybe that issue was a month or two old ??

I dunno... but anyway, 770 at the wheel is pretty solid. I wanna say it was Joe Sherman or Duttwilier that did the build... but not sure on that either. I look at it tomorrow when I get to work.

[tyoneal]

Here is some supercharger information, probably more than you want.

There generally 2 types of superchargers, positive displacement like Magnacharger, Whipple, Kenne Bell (these units sit directly on top of the intake manifold), or centrifugal like Procharger or Vortec which are located in the front of the engine in a location similar to the alternator or a/c unit.

The positive displacement sc companies have designed their units with a bypass valve that opens when the car is running in a vacuum condition. This bypass valve circulates the air that comes out of the compressed air end of the sc back to the intake, so that no boost is made and the sc is free wheeling and not taking much energy from the engine( less than 10 hp). Under acceleration the bypass valve is closed and the sc can make boost.

The positive displacement units are 1 of 2 design, either roots, or screw type. The screw type is generally considered to be more efficient.

A great feature of the positive displacement sc's is that they produce immediate, low rpm boost and massive torque. At lower speeds it is the torque that you feel in the seat of your pants when you accelerate.

The centrifugal sc's like the Pro Charger have tq and hp curves that are more similar to turbos. They don't come on as quickly as positive displacement, but will some times have more top end. I am not sure if the centrifugal units have bypass valves.

Superchargers are typically easier to install than turbos, less plumbing rework and simpler to operate. At full boost the sc's do rob the engine of hp to run them. So, when the dyno shows the engine making 600 hp, it is actually making 700, but a hundred is being taken away to run the sc.

Sorry for the long winded explanation, I just get wound up some times.

Your explaination is very welcome. The more Technical the reasoning of the imput is very helpfull and appreciated.

Thanks,

tyoneal

[tyoneal]

Didnt state chassis or anything... it was still refering to flywheel numbers and tuning. Maybe that issue was a month or two old ??

I dunno... but anyway, 770 at the wheel is pretty solid. I wanna say it was Joe Sherman or Duttwilier that did the build... but not sure on that either. I look at it tomorrow when I get to work.

Chicane:

770 at the flywheel would do well. I could always tune it underneith that if I wanted to.

Thank you for your information. If you stumble accross those, "Rags", I would appreciate the dates of them. A set up like this sounds like it would be fairly easy, dependable and a good bang for a buck.

Thanks,

Ty

[tyoneal]

Also, Thanks again for everyone taking the time to add their $.02 worth.

It is really appreciated.

tyoneal

[californiacuda]

You may want to go to Kenne Bell's web site, lots of data on a corvette system. I have head that they do a lot of dyno testing on their systems and provide real reproducible results.

[californiacuda]

Callaway has superchargers & turbos also.

[chicane]

If you stumble accross those, "Rags", I would appreciate the dates of them.

Its in this months CarCraft. Looks like this:

http://carcraft.com/toc/116_0703_cover_l.jpg

... in the back, in a little blurb about "770hp."

[chicane]

Well.....

My Bad. Its actually in the December issue. But the actual press release was dated Feb '06 :lolhit:

Its a 402cid LS2 with a Magnusen super charger. The article is a little different than the press release available on the Magnuson website... but still tells some of the story.

[deuce_454]

well i sort of agree on the above comments on turbos and superchargers, but some of them are not true in the sense that they arent comparing apples to apples..

if your goal horsepower wise is below 600 shaft horsepower you can do this on a prety much stock ls1/2 using what ever device to boost the engine you want.. if your engine survives 7 pounds of boost it will do so regardless fo what is used to produce the boost..

But a 7 pound turbo engine will produce noticably more rwhp than a mechanically supercharged engine.. as you dont rob the engine of shaft horsepower to drive the turbos, as is the case for a supercharger.

the hardware for the turbo setup is actually cheaper than a supercharger kit, but it reqires more fabrication by you, so if you are any good with a welder and dont charge yourself by the hour id stick to the turbos..

a pair of manifolds costs a hair under 1 grand from schwartz, the turbos are 800 a piece for garett units and the wastegates are about 300.. a good intercooler will run you from 300 and upwards and the tubing costs whatever you want it cost depending on material.. exhaust tubing, mag welds and paint works just as good as stainless, tig welds and polishing, for intercooler piping.. but the price certainly isnt the same..

all in all you should be able to put together a turbo system for less money than a supercharger cocts... IF your horsepower goals are the same.. and if you do the work your self..

if you dont believe me just take a look at a JY turbo hp.. they are making 650 hp for less than 1000 bucks on a twin turbo 5.0 ford.. http://www.2quicknovas.com/turbos.html

[nitrorocket]

Also, a properly setup turbo system is much more trouble and maintanance free down the road, especially at high boost levels. No need to change or tighten belts or change fluid. A turbo is also much easier on the motor with both making the same power, you have a tiny cam that is easy on the valvetrain, it is very quiet, and the boost is 100% load based not rpm based.

Just some of my personal experience.:)

Hope it helps.

[tyoneal]

Well.....

My Bad. Its actually in the December issue. But the actual press release was dated Feb '06 :lolhit:

Its a 402cid LS2 with a Magnusen super charger. The article is a little different than the press release available on the Magnuson website... but still tells some of the story.

Thanks for the correction. I'll check out the site.

Tyoneal

[CraigMorrison]

I just saw on the Magnacharger site that Duttweiler is building LS2 crates with one of Jerry's superchargers. With only 8lbs the package makes 740hp and 650 Ft-lbs. :thumbsup:

http://www.magnacharger.com/pr020.htm

[undertaker]

guess its about time for a late model vette owner with forced induction to pipe in right? :lol:

I'm very good friends with teh shop that does my work, I get the unbiased opinions of EVERYthing out there in the world of vettes so take it FWIW.

a magnacharger (they just came out with a 112 head unit which flows more) is a great reliable daily driveable eaton type blower, a lil more prone to heat soak, right on top of the motor a simple installation with little to no custom fab work done. Power is good, but there is better out there for all out efforts. I like the way they come in full boost down low....unfortunately for a 3300 lb wet vette thats kinda pointless, most of teh G machines here....well they're not that light but not a whole lot heavier. Low end torque equals tire spin without slicks or R compound street tires. Also you run into belt slip issues askign for big boost on a normal 6 rib setup (comes into play past 600ish rwhp on most blowers especially with a smaller blower pulley with less belt wrap)

Superchargers....my buddies made a name for themselves reengineering ati procharger's kit with a single front mount intercooler and a much better belt setup for the 6 rib and eventually working into 8 and most recently a 10 rib setup. Of course ATI realized their C5 vette system sales were pretty pathetic and weren't happy, they stopped selling my buddies loose head units and would only sell them as a kit. At that poitn they switched over to a paxton novi head unit. Their west coast competitor switched to vortech when the same situation happened to them at the same time.

I attatched a link with some examples of that the paxtons are doing on various LSx derived engines.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showpost.php?p=1559391159&postcount=14

okay as for my own personal car I drag/roadrace/street drive an 03 Z06 with rear mount sts twin turbos (two gt35's) Off the bat the car made 553/489 stock in every sense of performance ie. stock manifolds (turbos mount behind rear tires) cats, cam, only modification to the engine was stiffer valvesprings. Of course that wasn't enough, I wanted a 402 or 427 motor built to the heavens wild flowing heads the big bad fast 90/90 setup, headers etc. My buddies talked me out of it and all we did was rebuild my 22K mile stock 346 LS6 with forged pistons/rods arp fasteners, stock crank, new bearings, head studs, cometic gaskets and a very mild (as in you wouldn't know its there if I didn't tell you) cam. Stock heads, stock manifolds, cats mid section pipes etc. bumped it from 7 psi to 14 psi......710/640. When another car broke a few weeks back drag racing 6 hours from home, his car ended up in my trailer and I wound up driving the vette back home....before I hit the gas I was getting 28 mpg.....one 3rd to 4th gear pull that dropped to 21, I usually see 14 when I'm not driving like a grandpa :lol:

LS motors are very powerful motors. The big displacement is nice, but honestly I spent alot less with this 'budget' 346 setup and its more power than I can honestly use. Hell I kept it stick and the car has run a best of 10.95 at 140 or 10.6 at 136 more recently (we think the oem cats are toast and we're pulling them). You'd laugh to see me roll a 28 mpg car that idles like stock into lanes at the drag strip for a 10.0 index class with full backhalf cars running on race gas :lol:

If i were building a streetable weekend warrior I'd lean towards centrifigual superchargers (of course there's a bunch of fabrication involved here) or a turbo setup (more fabrication) the maggie is nice but I'm planning on putting one on my next 2500 suburban since they stopped the 8.1's because its a heavy truck and I want the power down low....in a car.....honestly without a full backhalf its hard to properly utilize low end grunt. I'd go solid midrange and killer top end personally. and the turbos or centrifugal will get you there :thumbsup:

ps. as for kenne bell....they've installed 2 and said the results were VERY, VERY disappointing, won't take another one in for an install said they're tired of making excuses for crappy results.

pps. a maggie needs a raised hood on a C5 (sure its a low profile design) make sure you account for that in your plans, or at least get all the base measurements from the mounts etc. to make sure you have adequate clearance.

[undertaker]

You may want to go to Kenne Bell's web site, lots of data on a corvette system. I have head that they do a lot of dyno testing on their systems and provide real reproducible results.

Callaway has superchargers & turbos also.



I personally wouldn't touch either option, your results may vary.

I've had friends with problems on mustangs with kenne bell 2.2L's big numbers on the dyno, leaks 2 months later etc. Results on vettes left much to be desired as well, the kit has been out for over a year.....not one track result, they're also larger than a maggie as for fit.

callaway rebadges pre-existing stuff for C5/C6 vettes at least and their super dooper derivatives, and marks them up substantially. There are more cost effective outlets out there. :thumbsup:

[camcojb]

I personally wouldn't touch either option, your results may vary.

I've had friends with problems on mustangs with kenne bell 2.2L's big numbers on the dyno, leaks 2 months later etc. Results on vettes left much to be desired as well, the kit has been out for over a year.....not one track result, they're also larger than a maggie as for fit.

callaway rebadges pre-existing stuff for C5/C6 vettes at least and their super dooper derivatives, and marks them up substantially. There are more cost effective outlets out there. :thumbsup:


I don't know, myself and many others had great luck with the KB's on our Lightnings. You see the occasional hiccup, but no more than I see for any other forced induction.

Jody

[californiacuda]

The twin screw superchargers that Kenne bell and Whipple use are universally accepted as being more efficient units(produce more boost and lower IAT temps) than the older roots style (magnuson/eaton). As far as somebodies friend having a problem with the KB 2.2 on his Mustang. KB pretty much owns the market for Ford products, and generally has a very good reputation. I can't speak to the success of their product on Vettes. Recently KB got over 800 hp on a stock Shelby 500 with their 2.8 unit.

[tyoneal]

Undertaker:

Great Post! Did you build the engine in your Vette or have it done? Who did you have do it?

".... okay as for my own personal car I drag/roadrace/street drive an 03 Z06 with rear mount sts twin turbos (two gt35's) Off the bat the car made 553/489 stock in every sense of performance ie. stock manifolds (turbos mount behind rear tires) cats, cam, only modification to the engine was stiffer valvesprings. Of course that wasn't enough, I wanted a 402 or 427 motor built to the heavens wild flowing heads the big bad fast 90/90 setup, headers etc. My buddies talked me out of it and all we did was rebuild my 22K mile stock 346 LS6 with forged pistons/rods arp fasteners, stock crank, new bearings, head studs, cometic gaskets and a very mild (as in you wouldn't know its there if I didn't tell you) cam. Stock heads, stock manifolds, cats mid section pipes etc. bumped it from 7 psi to 14 psi......710/640."

I've spoken to the local sts rep. about this application. He was a really nice guy and seemed to know his stuff. When you rebuilt your 346 LS6 it sounds like you created a hell of an engine. Would you mind giving some more specifics on your engine? ie. Brands and sources.

I like the idea of getting good gas milage as well. Kind of make the whole thing, "The perfect combination".

What cr did you use. Would you recommend a long block assymbled from sdpc? Does the Vette have a fair amount of room behind the axle? I am leaning towards a 3-link in the rear and I'm not sure how much space is required.

Basically, I'd be starting from scratch so I could put one together in whatever way would be the most efficient.

Any thoughts if you were starting this way?

Thanks again for your time.

Ty O'Neal

[camcojb]

Ty,

Just realize that although the STS does work and can make big power they will produce more lag than the traditional front mounted turbo setups. The STS was a popular kit on the new GTO's as there was nothing else in the market for them a couple years ago. In the last year or so a couple well-priced twin turbo kits hit the markets for the GTO's and the STS guys are jumping over to them, all saying the same, want less lag.

That and the ground clearance issues with a lowered car had me looking elsewhere, but bottom line they do work, are smog legal on virtually all applications, and pretty good bang for the buck.

Jody

[tyoneal]

Ty,

Just realize that although the STS does work and can make big power they will produce more lag than the traditional front mounted turbo setups. The STS was a popular kit on the new GTO's as there was nothing else in the market for them a couple years ago. In the last year or so a couple well-priced twin turbo kits hit the markets for the GTO's and the STS guys are jumping over to them, all saying the same, want less lag.

That and the ground clearance issues with a lowered car had me looking elsewhere, but bottom line they do work, are smog legal on virtually all applications, and pretty good bang for the buck.

Jody

Jody:

If you had a wee bit of lag off the line, it seems it might actually be a good thing, as many of the LS-2's make enough down low to get the wheels spinning easily n/a.

Would this be wrong?

Ty O'Neal

[tyoneal]

To All:

TurnKey Engine Supply uses the K-B Supercharger on their LS-2 700hp package.

I would think they have had luck with the K-B if that is what they use on one of their, "Packages".

http://www.turnkeyenginesupply.com/street_60700.htm

Has anyone seen or know someone that has one of these engines, and how they like it?

Ty O'Neal

[tyoneal]

well i sort of agree on the above comments on turbos and superchargers, but some of them are not true in the sense that they arent comparing apples to apples..

if your goal horsepower wise is below 600 shaft horsepower you can do this on a prety much stock ls1/2 using what ever device to boost the engine you want.. if your engine survives 7 pounds of boost it will do so regardless fo what is used to produce the boost..

But a 7 pound turbo engine will produce noticably more rwhp than a mechanically supercharged engine.. as you dont rob the engine of shaft horsepower to drive the turbos, as is the case for a supercharger.

the hardware for the turbo setup is actually cheaper than a supercharger kit, but it reqires more fabrication by you, so if you are any good with a welder and dont charge yourself by the hour id stick to the turbos..
a pair of manifolds costs a hair under 1 grand from schwartz, the turbos are 800 a piece for garett units and the wastegates are about 300.. a good intercooler will run you from 300 and upwards and the tubing costs whatever you want it cost depending on material.. exhaust tubing, mag welds and paint works just as good as stainless, tig welds and polishing, for intercooler piping.. but the price certainly isnt the same..

all in all you should be able to put together a turbo system for less money than a supercharger cocts... IF your horsepower goals are the same.. and if you do the work your self..

if you dont believe me just take a look at a JY turbo hp.. they are making 650 hp for less than 1000 bucks on a twin turbo 5.0 ford.. http://www.2quicknovas.com/turbos.html

deuce_454:

I would definately love to have TT, however with two shoulder replacements, at this point, I'm not sure how well I'd be able to do it myself.

Now in the future, who knows.

tyoneal

[Mizfit]

Give us a call if you go the LSX KB direction. As of right now we are building a resleeved LS7 block 427 with a KB and 8 rib setup that should make anywhere between 800 -1000 rwhp. It is going into a 1960 Vette (He is also having everything completely polished through us from all covers to the engine block. We can beat turnkey's prices...Good luck with your build:thumbsup:

Taylor
Mizfit

[tyoneal]

Give us a call if you go the LSX KB direction. As of right now we are building a resleeved LS7 block 427 with a KB and 8 rib setup that should make anywhere between 800 -1000 rwhp. It is going into a 1960 Vette (He is also having everything completely polished through us from all covers to the engine block. We can beat turnkey's prices...Good luck with your build:thumbsup:

Taylor
Mizfit
==============================================
Mizfit:

What kind of $$$ would I be looking at to get a drop in, complete, turn key engine, with 750 hp @ the flywheel. I do like the idea of the bypass value so with a relatively small engine it would get good mileage, and at the grop of your right foot it would Haul Ass.

Can a KB Super Charger dropped on a forged bottom end LS2 make the power, be very dependable, and get good mph?

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

[californiacuda]

KB has recently released its 2.8 unit, you might want to see what unit people are using and how they compare. Whipple has recently strated delivering their 3.3 units, they are making 750whp on Ford Gt's stock internals with 91 octane.

[Mizfit]

For our last customer who went with a KB fully Polished Tuner kit 8 rib setup, resleeved LS7 block 427CID w/ Edelbrock 245's heads, Callies compstar crank, callies rods, hell fire rings, ARP 2000 rod bolts, ARP Main Studs, ARP Head Studs, Turnkey Motor with EWP, Sheetmetal Valve Covers, Headers, all pans,covers,gaskets,seal,bolts...etc...Was approx:25K plus he is having verything fully polished for extra$$$...

So if you want to run the a 6rib KB stain Black on a turnkey forged stock cube LS2 you would save around 3K+, depending on options and parts. I would suggest using the same interals as he did just maybe the block, crank and possible heads can be changed if you are looking for a cheaper setup.

Feel free to pm or call me at 913-558-1100 to talk more about a KB setup if you are interested.

Thanks
Taylor

Mizfit MotorSports LLC.