PWM cooling fan(s) control using ECM

[samckitt]

I only see fan speed related to temp & to AC pressure. I dont know if fan speed related to VSS exists or not, maybe there & I just dont know where it is in the tune.

[erick_e]

I was under the impression that the fan controller won't even work with duty cycle numbers that are less than 5 and more than 90%. That was certainly the case when I was playing around with number on the Dominator ECU.

http://forums.holley.com/showthread.php?15528-PWM-Electric-Cooling-Fan/page2

Andrew

This info is what SPAL technical support gave me for their brushless fans.

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/egorgol/image003_zps0fn4uxia.jpg

Is there a % vs. VSS table? What's the thermostat temp on the Corvette?

Andrew

I haven't seen one either.

[erick_e]

I just got my 17" brushless fan and I am going to try to figure out how to have my factory ECM control it. Since these brushless fans are supposed to be factory on the 2014+ Corvette, I was able to compare the 2014 tune for brushless fan against the pre 2014 fans that have a separate PWM controller as seen in this thread.

In HPTuners the 2014 fan is listed as a PWM EV fan operating at 100Hz where the pre 2014 fans are PWM electric operating at 128Hz.

I'm thinking that I can just change the fan type and frequency in my tune and it should work.

Any thoughts?

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/egorgol/20150629_151938_zpsfgm315se.jpg

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/egorgol/20150629_152034_zpsqqg5j5ma.jpg

[andrewb70]

.....
In HPTuners the 2014 fan is listed as a PWM EV fan operating at 100Hz where the pre 2014 fans are PWM electric operating at 128Hz.

I'm thinking that I can just change the fan type and frequency in my tune and it should work.

Any thoughts?

...

I think that should work!

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I have a little update. I've been driving the Cougar quite a bit and working on the tune, so I decided to play with the fan settings a bit. I had the fan set to 40% in the 190 and 200 degree cells, but I wanted to see how low I could go with the fan speed at idle and still maintain temps in the 193-195 range. So I lowered fan speed to 25% in the 190 and 200 degree cells and let the car idle for 5 minutes. No change in temps. This fan just kicks ass...

I also scaled the temps above 40 mph so that the fan doesn't kick on at all until 200 degrees. I think for me, having a hole in the hood helps a lot...LOL

My ultimate goal is to cycle that fan as little as needed...

Andrew

[Che70velle]

Great info here guys!

[erick_e]

I think that should work!

Andrew

Well, I finally got around to testing my theory about the brushless fans working with the factory ECM.

Bottom line, the factory ECU can control these fans. Since I had already replaced by previously burnt up fan connector I was able to quickly connect the brushless fan to my car with another connector. Its just as simple as connecting the B+, B-, and PWN wires together. The factory ECM commands 128Hz, and the brushless fan is recommended for 100Hz. SPAL tech support says 128 should be OK, but 100Hz would be optimal. This can easily be changed with HPTuners or EFI Live. Changing the PWM type was not required. PWM Electric is what is required, not PWM EV like the C7 Corvette.

Once connected I fired up the Tech2 and commanded the fan on. Below you see it running at 90% duty cycle. I had the fan facing down to create restricted airflow (to simulate radiator, condenser and
heat exchanger). Notice it only dropped .3v at 90%. Not bad considering the vehicle wasn't even running.

CZ1ihcmsoo0

I didn't have time to test fit Dewitt's fan shroud with my EForce. Hopefully it fits, it's a beautiful shroud. But if it doesn't fit I might be able to make the brushless fan work with the original shroud with an adapter. The fan blade is the same dimension as the OEM blade, but the motor is a little smaller in diameter. I'll cross that bridge when I have to, if I have to. Hopefully the Dewitt's shroud doesn't interfere with my coolant lines and I don't have to.

[GregWeld]

CZ1ihcmsoo0







Well, I finally got around to testing my theory about the brushless fans working with the factory ECM.

Bottom line, the factory ECU can control these fans. Since I had already replaced by previously burnt up fan connector I was able to quickly connect the brushless fan to my car with another connector. Its just as simple as connecting the B+, B-, and PWN wires together. The factory ECM commands 128Hz, and the brushless fan is recommended for 100Hz. SPAL tech support says 128 should be OK, but 100Hz would be optimal. This can easily be changed with HPTuners or EFI Live. Changing the PWM type was not required. PWM Electric is what is required, not PWM EV like the C7 Corvette.

Once connected I fired up the Tech2 and commanded the fan on. Below you see it running at 90% duty cycle. I had the fan facing down to create restricted airflow (to simulate radiator, condenser and
heat exchanger). Notice it only dropped .3v at 90%. Not bad considering the vehicle wasn't even running.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ1ihcmsoo0


I didn't have time to test fit Dewitt's fan shroud with my EForce. Hopefully it fits, it's a beautiful shroud. But if it doesn't fit I might be able to make the brushless fan work with the original shroud with an adapter. The fan blade is the same dimension as the OEM blade, but the motor is a little smaller in diameter. I'll cross that bridge when I have to, if I have to. Hopefully the Dewitt's shroud doesn't interfere with my coolant lines and I don't have to.

[erick_e]

CZ1ihcmsoo0

Thanks. I wasn't sure how to insert YouTube videos. I tried the standard [YT] but it didn't work. I updated the post.

[cpd004]

I've just finished wiring my customer's fans. I split the PWM signal (blue wire in, 2 green wires out) at the MetriPack 280 connector, and grounded the controllers to the radiator core support (just below the connector). The fan power and ground signals go down and connect to the fans below.

Looks great....very clean. Where did you source the connectors for the module?

[samckitt]

Looks great....very clean. Where did you source the connectors for the module?

From me. I have more coming. Should be here in a week or so.

[parsonsj]

After a considerable amount of debugging, testing components, and general frustration and angst... I called GM Powertrain today.

Here's why: my system doesn't work. I can get discrete fans to work, no problem. But not a PWM fan. I've tested all the components individually and together. I built test harnesses and even sent my fan controllers off to be individually tested by a small company in Wisconsin.

All work fine.

Today, I got the GMPP help number and talked with tech support. They tell me that the fan PWM circuit is disabled in the GMPP crate motor ECMs in an effort to simplify tech support and reduce warranty claims.

So: you guys with GMPP crate motor E67s... how did you get your PWM fans to work?

[parsonsj]

Related: I called back and asked about AC pressure input support, along with reverse lockout.

The tech claimed there was no AC pressure support, and wasn't sure about reverse lockout. I managed to get him to take the action to ask Engineering, and I'm to get an email response.

[parsonsj]

So, here's what I've learned last night/today. My E67 (GM PN 12636660) started life intended for 07-08 Hummers. I think it's true that 07-08 E67s are incompatible with OS's written for 09+ E67s.

Given that, it seems I'm stuck. Getting a later E67 and a newer OS (like from a ZR1) is beyond my current abilities, I think.

I have read that HPTuners has an OS patch to support PWM fans, but I can't seem to find any such animal.

Anyway, that's the situation as I see it. Am I wrong? Would it be doable to get GM's ZR1 tune working with my crate motor LS9 if I got a newer E67?

Paging Dave Mikels, paging Dave Mikels. Dave Mikels to the E67-challenged section, please!

thanks!

[parsonsj]

The GM tech was right. The ECU isn't reading the A/C pressure.

And, so, continuing on with this thread where I'm talking to myself, I've picked up a salvage yard E67 (from a 2011 Malibu) and it's on its way to Austin where I'm having a 2011 ZR1 OS loaded on it.

From there, I'll move my GMPP LS9 tune to the ZR1 tune. I'm hopeful that this new setup will read A/C pressure and support PWM output.

[waynieZ]

Thanks for posting john.

[carbuff]

and it's on its way to Austin where I'm having a 2011 ZR1 OS loaded on it.

I'm curious who you are sending it to here in Austin? Assuming you meant the city and not a person? :headscratch:

[parsonsj]

who you are sending it to here in Austin?Dave Steck at Finspeed said he can fix this for me.

[parsonsj]

Another (related) question: does anybody have a line on the voltage vs pressure map of the GM AC refrigerant sensor (AC Delco pn 15-51258)? I've been in contact with a vendor about a standalone fan controller for AC and engine coolant temp.

I've done some googling without much luck, though why I would expect anything other than bad luck is a good question. :bang:

[dhutton]

Another (related) question: does anybody have a line on the voltage vs pressure map of the GM AC refrigerant sensor (AC Delco pn 15-51258)? I've been in contact with a vendor about a standalone fan controller for AC and engine coolant temp.

I've done some googling without much luck, though why I would expect anything other than bad luck is a good question. :bang:

I think the sensor map would be resistance in ohms versus pressure. I am guessing this is something you could measure with a little ingenuity, a tank of MIG gas, a regulator and an ohmmeter. :thumbsup:

Don

[parsonsj]

Sensor data, just pulled from the car:

[parsonsj]

I think the sensor map would be resistance in ohms versus pressureIt's a 3 wire sensor: 5V, ground, signal. So the ECU is measuring voltage. Internally, the mechanism is resistance, but that is translated to voltage for convenience.

[dhutton]

Thanks for explaining it. I was puzzled a little. Pretty clever measuring it in the car.

Don

[parsonsj]

Pretty clever measuring it in the car.Glad I'm rehabilitating my reputation after the cardboard in the intercooler fiasco. :)

[Obsin71Ls1]

Another (related) question: does anybody have a line on the voltage vs pressure map of the GM AC refrigerant sensor (AC Delco pn 15-51258)? I've been in contact with a vendor about a standalone fan controller for AC and engine coolant temp.

I've done some googling without much luck, though why I would expect anything other than bad luck is a good question. :bang:

Here are the pressure vs voltage characteristics for various A/C pressure sensors. The one you asked for is MT1247.

https://www.omega-usa.com/client/images/lit-0289%20Press%20Trans%20Flyer.pdf

[parsonsj]

Thanks! My lab data was close enough, but I appreciate the engineering data.

I'll use the official data, rather than my experimental stuff.

[parsonsj]

Finally.

I bought a salvage yard E67 off a V6 Malibu, sent it to a fellow in Austin TX who flashed a 2013 ZR1 OS on it, picked up a special copy of HP Tuners (2.25.xxx, still in beta), and copied my tune from the crate motor tune, and wrote the calibration out.

Voila, PWM fans.

Finally.

Geez, what a bunch of walls to knock down!

Net: The GMPP crate motor E67 OS does not and can not support PWM fans or AC pressure sensors. You have to use a late model passenger car E67 or E38 and OS, and deal with all the extra equipment implied in that. I've got a bunch of work left to deleted all the DTCs that don't apply, plus puzzle out all the differences in the tuning tables.

[dontlifttoshift]

Glad you got it fixed.

The question I have is this, Mikels reworked the E67 for the Lous Change car, and I thought that was a GMPP harness and ECM for the LS9, so what did he do that you didn't?

[parsonsj]

Thanks Donny.

The question I have is this, Mikels reworked the E67 for the Lous Change car, and I thought that was a GMPP harness and ECM for the LS9, so what did he do that you didn't?Lou's car is an LSA, maybe that matters, but yeah, I've been wondering the same thing myself.

[parsonsj]

Yesterday, I transferred the tune from the old GMPP file to the new ZR1 OS tune file. I moved every single table, one by one, and did a complete audit of all the DTC codes and their behaviors. The end result was unexpected, in a good way.

I finally fired up the car, monitoring all the usual parameters, including fan desired/fan %/AC pressure.

With an identical tune (as near as I can tell) the car runs better. The idle is smoother, throttle response is better, TPS % at idle is better (27% to 19%), fuel trims are markedly improved, and O2 voltages are smoother.

There's no doubt the car runs better with the ZR1 OS than with the GMPP OS, with an identical tune. Oh, and the fans function perfectly. AC and ECT desired both work exactly as documented.

Anyway, after 4 weeks' delay, the project is back on track. I'll never use a GMPP crate controller or OS again. From now on, I'll make my own harness, and get my own controller.

[Justin@EntropyRad]

Lots of nice tech in this build!

If I may plant a seed here, our fan controllers work with pretty much any ecm combination, and also integrate with VA systems...while it does require mounting a controller, it's only the size of your palm:

http://www.entropyrad.com/images/cache/FanControllers/FC03_small.220.jpg

[andrewb70]

Lots of nice tech in this build!

If I may plant a seed here, our fan controllers work with pretty much any ecm combination, and also integrate with VA systems...while it does require mounting a controller, it's only the size of your palm:

http://www.entropyrad.com/images/cache/FanControllers/FC03_small.220.jpg

Justin,

How is your system adjusted?

Andrew

[samckitt]

They're back. I have more connector parts for the Corvette PWM module. $55 shipped.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150820_153531.jpg

[65C6Corvette]

They're back. I have more connector parts for the Corvette PWM module. $55 shipped.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150820_153531.jpg


Scot,

I sent you a PM...

Thanks Dirk

[Tony V]

Scot,

sent a PM also....

Thx
Tony

[andrewb70]

So........

I am not ashamed to admit that I might be slightly obsessed with the ability to control my fan speed.

Recently I had to add coolant to my system (I was running straight water in the summer) so that I don't hurt anything during the long WI winter. After adding the coolant (good to about -40 degrees) I noticed that the engine ran about 4-5 degrees hotter under previously noted conditions. This of course caused the fan to run faster per the table that I programmed.

So I decided to "retune" the table and just set it to work the best it can in my car. For me, "the best it can" is running the fan as slowly as possible, while maintaining a target temperature. But what is that target temperature? LOL

I know I have a stock thermostat which by all accounts is 187 degrees. Given that information I can turn off the fan and just watch what the temperature does under varying conditions (granted all of this is dependent on ambient temperature and ideal I would incorporate it into the fan control strategy for optimal results, but even GM doesn't do this...Didn't I say that I might be slightly obsessed?)

Driving normally around town (aka like grandma...top speed 35) the temperature never got above 191-192 (about 50 ambient). I then took it on the highway and cruising at a steady 75 mph the temp was stable between 194-195 degrees (all this with the fan off).

So I configured my table as follows at vehicle speed below 40mph...

Temp:fan %

194:5 (off)
200:10
210:20

Then it ramps in rather quickly (I don't recall the exact numbers). The fan basically never kicks on around town and temps is steady at 191-192.

For vehicle speed above 40mph I just configured the cells to be one value off, like this:

194:5
200:5
210:10

etc....again, ramping in quickly. Temp is steady at 194-195 without the fan.

I don't know if this is optimal in terms of thermal efficiency. Probably not because my engine seems to run cooler than it would in the donor vehicle (2009 Colorado pick-up). But in terms of my target goal (cycling the fan as little as possible) I think I succeeded.

Anyway, I thought I would share for anyone that cares.

Comments, questions, and opinions welcome.

Andrew

[carbuff]

Andrew,

Question: when driving down the road normally, won't the fan spin due to airflow through the radiator? I'm curious how much more the motors spin the fans at 5% vs. what air passing through it would be?

That would take some math to figure out I assume, but I am curious.

[GregWeld]

Andrew,

Question: when driving down the road normally, won't the fan spin due to airflow through the radiator? I'm curious how much more the motors spin the fans at 5% vs. what air passing through it would be?

That would take some math to figure out I assume, but I am curious.



Running down the road - the fan shouldn't be needed at all.

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

Question: when driving down the road normally, won't the fan spin due to airflow through the radiator? I'm curious how much more the motors spin the fans at 5% vs. what air passing through it would be?

That would take some math to figure out I assume, but I am curious.

To clarify, with the C6 fan controller, commanding 5% duty cycle means the fans are totally off. See my video for demonstration.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Running down the road - the fan shouldn't be needed at all.

Precisely. See my comment above.

Andrew

[130fe]

Justin, do you have a link to the kit you listed?

[4wheels]

Interesting data. Thanks for sharing it.

As you mentioned the 50 deg ambient you mention is a significant variable. So is load (speed, grade, weight, other drag etc.) along with overall engine efficiency (extreme example - a 8.0:1 compression engine with timing set to way below MBT spark is going to put a lot of extra heat into the cooling system). You likely wouldn't be controlling to those temperatures without a fan at 80 or 90 degrees ambient or if you were going up a hill or stuck is stop and go traffic with other vehicles around (less airflow, more heat).

But if you are trying to control to an engine coolant temperature I am not sure having ambient as part of your fan control strategy would help much. The feedback on the coolant temperature should do that. Most OEM's are controlling the coolant temperature/fan operation to above thermostat temperature. When you try to control the coolant temperature with the fans to a temperature around the same as the thermostat then it can get more complicated as the two can be working in phase and out of phase. The thermostat has a range of temperatures (starts to open vs fully open) and where it reads temperature may not be the same as the fans and the difference between the two varies depending on many other conditions.

Just some more variables for you to worry about....


So........

I am not ashamed to admit that I might be slightly obsessed with the ability to control my fan speed.

Recently I had to add coolant to my system (I was running straight water in the summer) so that I don't hurt anything during the long WI winter. After adding the coolant (good to about -40 degrees) I noticed that the engine ran about 4-5 degrees hotter under previously noted conditions. This of course caused the fan to run faster per the table that I programmed.

So I decided to "retune" the table and just set it to work the best it can in my car. For me, "the best it can" is running the fan as slowly as possible, while maintaining a target temperature. But what is that target temperature? LOL

I know I have a stock thermostat which by all accounts is 187 degrees. Given that information I can turn off the fan and just watch what the temperature does under varying conditions (granted all of this is dependent on ambient temperature and ideal I would incorporate it into the fan control strategy for optimal results, but even GM doesn't do this...Didn't I say that I might be slightly obsessed?)

Driving normally around town (aka like grandma...top speed 35) the temperature never got above 191-192 (about 50 ambient). I then took it on the highway and cruising at a steady 75 mph the temp was stable between 194-195 degrees (all this with the fan off).

So I configured my table as follows at vehicle speed below 40mph...

Temp:fan %

194:5 (off)
200:10
210:20

Then it ramps in rather quickly (I don't recall the exact numbers). The fan basically never kicks on around town and temps is steady at 191-192.

For vehicle speed above 40mph I just configured the cells to be one value off, like this:

194:5
200:5
210:10

etc....again, ramping in quickly. Temp is steady at 194-195 without the fan.

I don't know if this is optimal in terms of thermal efficiency. Probably not because my engine seems to run cooler than it would in the donor vehicle (2009 Colorado pick-up). But in terms of my target goal (cycling the fan as little as possible) I think I succeeded.

Anyway, I thought I would share for anyone that cares.

Comments, questions, and opinions welcome.

Andrew

[4wheels]

With some of the newer high output fans the vehicle speed based fan disable strategy isn't used anymore. If the cooling is enough that the fans aren't needed then they turn off due to temperature anyway.

Running down the road - the fan shouldn't be needed at all.

[4wheels]

I am doing some testing of a stand alone PWM fan controller for a manufacturer. Since this is a stand alone system it reads a separate coolant temperature sensor and can be used on any vehicle (doesn't have to have PWM fan control strategy in the ECM).

One question that has come up in my testing is what is this other sensor reading for temperature since it isn't the same as the other temperature sensors in the cooling system (not the same sensor and may or may not be in the same location in comparison to engine, pump, thermostat, radiator etc.).

If you were a potential customer for this type of product, would an output of temperature from a fan controller be of interest? For example I would like to see it output temperature as a 0-5 volt signal that I could read with a data acquisition system or even just a simple volt meter. Might even be able to drive a gauge with this output (depends on the gauge type).

Any feedback/ideas?

Thanks.

[andrewb70]

I am doing some testing of a stand alone PWM fan controller for a manufacturer. Since this is a stand alone system it reads a separate coolant temperature sensor and can be used on any vehicle (doesn't have to have PWM fan control strategy in the ECM).

One question that has come up in my testing is what is this other sensor reading for temperature since it isn't the same as the other temperature sensors in the cooling system (not the same sensor and may or may not be in the same location in comparison to engine, pump, thermostat, radiator etc.).

If you were a potential customer for this type of product, would an output of temperature from a fan controller be of interest? For example I would like to see it output temperature as a 0-5 volt signal that I could read with a data acquisition system or even just a simple volt meter. Might even be able to drive a gauge with this output (depends on the gauge type).

Any feedback/ideas?

Thanks.

If you are targeting users that may not have EFI, then I see a benefit to having a "temp out." As you said, this can be used to drive a gauge in the dash. I think most temp gauges use a thermister style sensor so the output would need to be resistance.

Andrew

[mikels]

Running down the road - the fan shouldn't be needed at all.

Not completely true - if running the fan creates more negative pressure on backside of cooling system stack, running fan will increase cooling.

For example - when Mark switched Red Devil to 850W fan from 400W, it resulted in ~10 F reduction in coolant and oil temps (oil-to-water oil cooler in radiator) when running on track - with average speeds well above what you typically run on street.

Keep in mind this is a very thick (~5-6") cooling stack as well (A/C condenser, ICHE, radiator)

So ability to create more negative pressure on backside of cooling stack resulted in more airflow across coolers - and more heat transfer as a result.

Dave

[GregWeld]

Not completely true - if running the fan creates more negative pressure on backside of cooling system stack, running fan will increase cooling.

For example - when Mark switched Red Devil to 850W fan from 400W, it resulted in ~10 F reduction in coolant and oil temps (oil-to-water oil cooler in radiator) when running on track - with average speeds well above what you typically run on street.

Keep in mind this is a very thick (~5-6") cooling stack as well (A/C condenser, ICHE, radiator)

So ability to create more negative pressure on backside of cooling stack resulted in more airflow across coolers - and more heat transfer as a result.

Dave



Good info Dave.... and Yes - I can certainly see in a racing situation, and with that much horsepower creating additional heat that needs to be dispersed. I was referring to a normal freeway cruising situation where even my Semi truck rarely engages the fan (air engaged fan of ginormous proportions).

[GregWeld]

I found this info in an article written about the 2016 Cadillac ATS-V:




The enemy of a performance car - beyond speed cameras and over-zealous highway police - is heat, and Cadillac has left nothing to chance there. Every grille and vent has a purpose, and in fact the engineers had to get creative to accommodate every heat-exchanger they wanted to install.

So, there are eight heat-exchangers in total, along with an 850W cooling fan. Each of the “grillettes” - the lower side grilles - has an intercooler, linked with the main cooler for the engine. The auto transmission alone gets two coolers, one in the traditional place behind the grille, and another mounted flat on the underside, near the front, the only spot Caddy had left.

[parsonsj]

Any feedback/ideas?Yes, it would be awesome for such a standalone controller to also support an AC pressure sensor. All the fan controllers I've seen just turn on the fans to a set speed (usually 100%) with a 12V input signal when the AC is turned on.

[mikels]

Yes, it would be awesome for such a standalone controller to also support an AC pressure sensor. All the fan controllers I've seen just turn on the fans to a set speed (usually 100%) with a 12V input signal when the AC is turned on.

This functionality is built into OEM control logic (E40, E38, E67, etc. with PWM fan control. There are cal's based on following:

ECT
Oil temp
Trans temp
IAT
AC pressure


Way logic works is a % output based on each of these inputs - and highest request wins. In other words, if ECT is requesting 30%, but AC pressure is requesting 42%, fans are driven @ 42%.

Stand-alone controller would need provisions for a scaled 0-5V input based on AC pressure with a cal relating that pressure to a requested output. And same logic where highest request wins.

Dave

[parsonsj]

This functionality is built into OEM control logic (E40, E38, E67, etc. with PWM fan control.Except for GMPP controllers. GM deliberately disabled the PWM fan control logic (along with AC pressure sensor input and reverse lockout, and who knows what else) to reduce warranty issues.

[mikels]

Except for GMPP controllers. GM deliberately disabled the PWM fan control logic (along with AC pressure sensor input and reverse lockout, and who knows what else) to reduce warranty issues.

Not true - it's in there. Main change was to make controller incompatable to use (with GMPP software) in a production vehicle - so you can't defeat theft systems.

Dave

[parsonsj]

Not true - it's in there. Main change was to make controller incompatable to use (with GMPP software) in a production vehicle - so you can't defeat theft systems. I wish you were right!! :)

I spent a month with a GMPP LS9 (E67) controller trying to get the fans to work. HPTuners happily let me make the changes to the fan tables, but the PWM control wire didn't have a signal. I finally opened a support case with GMPP, and tech support told me that fan control (and AC pressure, and reverse logic, etc.) was deliberately disabled in the GMPP E67s.

I switched to a salvage yard E67 from a V6 Malibu and got that working immediately (wrote ZR1 OS, then copied the GMPP tune plus the fans).

I even documented my journey in this very thread a few pages back.

[samckitt]

I have the GMPP LS2 controller kit and turned on the PWM fan and reverse lockout functionality using HP TUNER. Assuming the AC pressure for fan works too. Haven't teases that yet

[mikels]

I wish you were right!! :)

I spent a month with a GMPP LS9 (E67) controller trying to get the fans to work. HPTuners happily let me make the changes to the fan tables, but the PWM control wire didn't have a signal. I finally opened a support case with GMPP, and tech support told me that fan control (and AC pressure, and reverse logic, etc.) was deliberately disabled in the GMPP E67s.

I switched to a salvage yard E67 from a V6 Malibu and got that working immediately (wrote ZR1 OS, then copied the GMPP tune plus the fans).

I even documented my journey in this very thread a few pages back.

May be an issue of HPT not having correct address of fan type selection, but I can assure you - the software is in there.

BTW - GMPP tech support may be technically correct in that it is 'disabled' - but only by bit selection (not removal of code).

Dave

[parsonsj]

May be an issue of HPT not having correct address of fan type selection, but I can assure you - the software is in there.

BTW - GMPP tech support may be technically correct in that it is 'disabled' - but only by bit selection (not removal of code).

DaveI hear ya on the "bit selection". Quite likely in the OS, rather than the hardware/firmware. And not only is the fan disabled, but the AC pressure sensor input is disabled too. I verified both with side by side testing. I was told the reverse lockout was also disabled, but didn't verify with testing.

I was also told that over-writing the GMPP E67 with a later model passenger OS would likely "brick" it. That's why I used a salvage yard 2012 MY controller.

[andrewb70]

....

Stand-alone controller would need provisions for a scaled 0-5V input based on AC pressure with a cal relating that pressure to a requested output. And same logic where highest request wins.

Dave

I am pretty sure this can be implemented in the Holley Dominator. Every output can be configured to have multiple trigger events. The Dominator also has quite a bit of programmable inputs.

However, doing all that seems like overkill on my old jalopy...LOL

Andrew

[andrewb70]

May be an issue of HPT not having correct address of fan type selection, but I can assure you - the software is in there.

BTW - GMPP tech support may be technically correct in that it is 'disabled' - but only by bit selection (not removal of code).

Dave

Dave,

First of all, thank you for all the information that you have provided. It has been invaluable!

John and I discussed this in detail and we suspect that at some point GMPP altered the E67 ECUs that come with their kits.

Lous69 was able to make it work on his Camaro and so have others I believe. I bought my GMPP kit back in 2008, but I have yet to implement this on my GTO.

As stated earlier, I think at some point GMPP made changes to the ECU, most likely at the OS level. It doesn't seem likely that GM would alter the ECU at the hardware level as that would greatly increase cost. But making simple revisions to the OS probably only required some programming time, which only adds a little bit of cost.

This is all conjecture of course as we don't have the knowledge or the needed software tools to know for sure.

Andrew

[4wheels]

It isn't at the hardware level because that same part number (before it becomes a GMPP ECU) is used in some model year production vehicle applications.

You can also put the GMPP calibration into the production vehicle service part if you get the correct part number ECU. And you can put production software in the GMPP ECU if you make sure it is a compatible OS (careful because if it isn't compatible you can "brick it").

As far as I know only two OS's exist for the GMPP E67 ECU's:
12638778
19211212

Neither of these OS's are used in production vehicle applications.

Anyone know of any other OS's used in the GMPP E67s?

As was already pointed out differences exist in the GMPP calibration compared to the production vehicle calibrations for anti-theft related reasons so that the GMPP ECM can't be used as a way to bypass GM's production anti-theft ECU calibration logic. Plugging a GMPP ECU into a production vehicle can't be used as a way to bypass the anti-theft requirements of the production applications (to meet Federal vehicle anti-theft requirements).


Dave,

First of all, thank you for all the information that you have provided. It has been invaluable!

John and I discussed this in detail and we suspect that at some point GMPP altered the E67 ECUs that come with their kits.

Lous69 was able to make it work on his Camaro and so have others I believe. I bought my GMPP kit back in 2008, but I have yet to implement this on my GTO.

As stated earlier, I think at some point GMPP made changes to the ECU, most likely at the OS level. It doesn't seem likely that GM would alter the ECU at the hardware level as that would greatly increase cost. But making simple revisions to the OS probably only required some programming time, which only adds a little bit of cost.

This is all conjecture of course as we don't have the knowledge or the needed software tools to know for sure.

Andrew

[parsonsj]

It isn't at the hardware level because that same part number (before it becomes a GMPP ECU) is used in some model year production vehicle applications.Do those vehicles use PWM fans? My GMPP E67 pn sources back to an 07 Hummer. Anybody know if 07 Hummers have PWM fan control?

[erick_e]

Do those vehicles use PWM fans? My GMPP E67 pn sources back to an 07 Hummer. Anybody know if 07 Hummers have PWM fan control?

2007 H2 and H3 have a fan clutch, so no electric fan.

[4wheels]

The H3 might be an E67 ECM but the 2007 H2 is an E38 and had a conventional mechanical fan (with a thermostatic clutch).

The H3 might have a PWM controlled clutch fan like the Trailblazer etc but it doesn't have a PWM speed controlled electric fan.

2007 H2 and H3 have a fan clutch, so no electric fan.

[4wheels]

Full speed over-ride input for AC, manual fan switch etc but not enough inputs on this controller to accept an AC pressure signal and a temperature sensor. Maybe the next version. 8-)

Yes, it would be awesome for such a standalone controller to also support an AC pressure sensor. All the fan controllers I've seen just turn on the fans to a set speed (usually 100%) with a 12V input signal when the AC is turned on.

[mikels]

E40, E38 and E67 have ability to control PWM fan or dual discrete or ECM controlled engine driven fan output. All use AC pressure, oil temp, IAT, trans temp as well as coolant to control fan output. Can not mix and match fan driver type - must pick one.

Difference between discrete and PWM is you only have on or off with discrete - which is set to 50% and 100% output from fan cal. PWM drives the motor at whatever the percentage is based on the inputs.

If using the discrete outputs with dual electric, I prefer to set them as parallel / series control rather than have each fan driven by output. That way on 50%, you are driving both fans @ 50% rather than one @ 100%.

I hate listening to noisy fan(s) masking sound of engine - exception being when in track usage - where you NEED the fan output.

Dave

BTW - reason E40 & E67 were used in TBSS and H3 is vehicle communication was still Class 2 while Powertrain was CAN - E40 & E67 can handle both (E38 is CAN only).

[4wheels]

I too prefer to use the three relay parallel/series control on two fans (where both fans are run together low speed or high speed but never individually) but you need to be careful what fans you use for this. Some fan motors don't work well at half voltage (get close to or drop below motor stall speed/torque). Also some fans won't be fuse protected in that configuration (you can stop the blade and fail the motor without blowing the fuse). If you are going to run the series/parallel configuration the easiest is to just use fans that are run that way from the factory (plenty of GM examples to choose from between Camaros, Corvettes, CK trucks etc.).

BTW - if you are running one fan you can also have two speeds with most GM PCM,s/ECMs using a two speed fan relay. Volvo has one that takes two inputs and switches a single fan from low to high speed.

Volvo Cooling Fan 2 Speed Relay, Volvo OE part numbers (used in lots of Volvos so cheap at the junk yard):

9442933
1398845
3523872


Kaehler also manufactures a part that is similiar to the Volvo Cooling Fan Relay. The part number is:

KAE 3702300





.....

If using the discrete outputs with dual electric, I prefer to set them as parallel / series control rather than have each fan driven by output. That way on 50%, you are driving both fans @ 50% rather than one @ 100%.

I hate listening to noisy fan(s) masking sound of engine - exception being when in track usage - where you NEED the fan output.

Dave

BTW - reason E40 & E67 were used in TBSS and H3 is vehicle communication was still Class 2 while Powertrain was CAN - E40 & E67 can handle both (E38 is CAN only).

[parsonsj]

exception being when in track usage - where you NEED the fan output.I'm always battling heat in my '07 Z06 (E38), especially when I run at Sebring. Oil temps often go north of 280*. I'm assuming that my fans aren't running above 35 mph. True? Can that be changed with HPTuners? I gotta admit I've never looked at that...

[mikels]

I'm always battling heat in my '07 Z06 (E38), especially when I run at Sebring. Oil temps often go north of 280*. I'm assuming that my fans aren't running above 35 mph. True? Can that be changed with HPTuners? I gotta admit I've never looked at that...

There is no speed dependency for fan control. Strictly based on temps vs. fan output %. ECT, EOT, TOT, IAT each have their own table - and highest request wins. What this means is say each input below with respective fan %:
ECT = 60%
EOT = 40%
TOT = 35%
IAT = 0%

Result will be fans driven at 60%.

You can access fan tables with HPT or EFILive.

Don't make mistake in assuming max fan % is only ~90% - so you should raise to 100%. PWM fan controllers have max output at some level <100% (depending on controller). Raising will NOT increase fan output, but can damage fan controller.

BTW- 280 is well within temp limits of synthetic oil, so will present no problems.

Dave

[samckitt]

If you decide to run the Corvette fan module & control the fan from the ECM, I have the module connectors. $55 shipped.


http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150820_153531.jpg

[4wheels]

Dave,

Might not be speed based fan control in the E38 or E67 (I haven't looked at all the code or all the OS's that exist for all of those ECM's to be able to make an across the board statement like that, one way or the other) but plenty of other earlier GM systems did have speed based control criteria. The controllers used with the Gen III GM V8 engines ("Warren PCMs") all had speed based fan control criteria available in the code and most of the vehicles had it enabled.

PSS

There is no speed dependency for fan control. Strictly based on temps vs. fan output %. ECT, EOT, TOT, IAT each have their own table - and highest request wins. What this means is say each input below with respective fan %:
ECT = 60%
EOT = 40%
TOT = 35%
IAT = 0%

Result will be fans driven at 60%.

You can access fan tables with HPT or EFILive.

Don't make mistake in assuming max fan % is only ~90% - so you should raise to 100%. PWM fan controllers have max output at some level <100% (depending on controller). Raising will NOT increase fan output, but can damage fan controller.

BTW- 280 is well within temp limits of synthetic oil, so will present no problems.

Dave

[4wheels]

...
Don't make mistake in assuming max fan % is only ~90% - so you should raise to 100%. PWM fan controllers have max output at some level <100% (depending on controller). Raising will NOT increase fan output, but can damage fan controller.
...
Dave

Yes, most of the PWM fans reserve the low end of the scale and the high end of the scale for error criteria or other operating modes so most of the fan motor controllers built into the fans are expecting somewhere in the 10% to 20% as initial on speed and somewhere between 80%-90% duty cycle for maximum fan speed control. Above what ever the maximum expected duty cycle won't result in higher speed.

Not saying people should raise the PWM duty cycle over what ever setting than fan is expecting to see but how would this damage the controller? It wouldn't cause it to operate at higher current. The PWM duty cycle doesn't directly control fan speed - it is a fan speed request signal to the internal BLDC motor controller inside the fan. Also the PWM signal is just a communications level signal - it isn't driving any current into the system itself.

Just wondering.

[4wheels]

As Dave pointed out, 280 degrees F is perfectly fine for good synthetic oil. You should be able to run over 300 with good oil (not saying you want it that hot but that it isn't that uncommon). High temperatures will cause some break-down of the oil and additive package so you should change the oil more frequently when it gets that hot. That shouldn't be an issue as I would assume most heavily tracked cars change the oil after each event weekend (and take an oil sample from time to time and send it to Blackstone or some other oil analysis company).

I'm always battling heat in my '07 Z06 (E38), especially when I run at Sebring. Oil temps often go north of 280*. I'm assuming that my fans aren't running above 35 mph. True? Can that be changed with HPTuners? I gotta admit I've never looked at that...

[Old66Tiger]

I have read this thread from front to back and I have a few questions.

What is the part number for the AC pressure sensor? Pigtail?
What is the thread size and pitch on the sensor?
Besides John Parsons, anyone else have a T made up to work on the VA system?
What is the pin out for an E38 ECM?

Thanks.

[samckitt]

Eficonnection has the connector parts.

Or go to the junk yard and fine one. You can get the connector, sensor, and fitting. Cut the aluminum hose on each side. Any AC shop can braise the fitting onto any aluminum line or fitting. Last I checked you couldn't buy the fitting the sensor connects to.

[parsonsj]

As Dave pointed out, 280 degrees F is perfectly fine for good synthetic oil. You should be able to run over 300 with good oil (not saying you want it that hot but that it isn't that uncommon). High temperatures will cause some break-down of the oil and additive package so you should change the oil more frequently when it gets that hot. That shouldn't be an issue as I would assume most heavily tracked cars change the oil after each event weekend (and take an oil sample from time to time and send it to Blackstone or some other oil analysis company).Yep, I run Redline. Change it before and after every event (from motor oil to racing oil and back again). I even send in oil for analysis...

[Old66Tiger]

Eficonnection has the connector parts.

Or go to the junk yard and fine one. You can get the connector, sensor, and fitting. Cut the aluminum hose on each side. Any AC shop can braise the fitting onto any aluminum line or fitting. Last I checked you couldn't buy the fitting the sensor connects to.

Thanks. What year and models does this fall into? Or is this pretty much the same across multiple models?

[samckitt]

Thanks. What year and models does this fall into? Or is this pretty much the same across multiple models?

I can't say 100%, but I pulled mine off of early 2000 front wheel drive cars. I pulled a few for friends & they all worked. I bought the connector from EFI Connection & it was the same connector as what I found in the junkyard. I assumed/hoped that it was the same sensor. I think I paid $5 a piece for the connector pigtail, sensor, & segment of hose.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141009_204653_edit.jpg

I haven't done it on my AC line yet, but buddy took one of these to AC shop & they removed the fitting from the tube & then braised to an elbow that then gets crimped onto a hose.

[andrewb70]

This looks about right:

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1844796&cc=1380091&jnid=516&jpid=0

Andrew

[samckitt]

EFI Connection has the AC sensor pigtail & parts:

Pigtail:
https://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemId=910

Connector parts:
https://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ConnectorDetails.aspx?ItemId=207

And sensor:
https://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemId=1080

Sensor through them is $60, pigtail is $11.50.


Info on the page for the sensor states:
" We currently do not know where to source a fitting."

That's why I headed to the junk yard. I think I paid around $5 a piece for the fitting, sensor & pigtail.

[Obsin71Ls1]

You don't need to go to the junkyard to get the fitting for the A/C pressure switch; it is available from several vendors either in aluminum or steel. I don't know if I can post non-sponsor links here but if so, let me know and I'll provide the links. Also, as far as I know, GM A/C pressure sensor used in most LS cars has a fine metric thread. Specifically M10 x 1.25.

The fitting is on the right.
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp201/Project_E57/ac%20pressure%20switch%20fittings.jpg

[samckitt]

That doesn't look like the threads on fittings for the sensors I have. The ones I have are a finer thread I believe. I will try to find one in my shed (moved & stuff is everywhere), and take a pic of it.

[dontlifttoshift]

So I just came across this gem on a bmw forum.

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp201/Project_E57/PressureSensors.jpg

Of particular note are sensors number MT1297 and MT1339. They use the same connector and have nearly the same voltage readings but one is female 3/8-24.....same as a female Vintage Air trinary switch. VA has adapters to install that into a drier or inline fitting if you want.

MT1297 transfers to a GM 22599559 or ACDelco 15-72104 and it seems to have the same pressure/voltage ramp as the one parsons outlined about 4 pages back.


****Edit**** ACdelco 15-72104 does not fit the Vintage Air adapters. Thread and pitch are wrong so that is out.....back to the previous plan.

[Old66Tiger]

That's cool. I sent an email VA asking about an adapter and no response. The only fitting I see that would work is a Schrader style but not sure if that is what you are referring to.

[dontlifttoshift]

This adapter will thread into the drier and _should_ work with the GM sensor noted above. I am waiting for my sensors to get here and confirm.

18103-VUG

All the driers have two ports on them now so if you can package it with the sensor and the binary switch you are done.

If not, there are inline fittings available.

347561-VUR #6 ez clip

34829-VUG #6 beadlock

Parsons noted earlier that GM puts the sensor in the #8 between the compressor and the condenser, that would allow the ecm to see the highest pressure in the system and is likely the best spot for it. When I get to charging the AC, I'll keep an eye on how the fan cycles in relation to pressure and adjust the table as needed. I don't expect a need to do that though.

[Old66Tiger]

I have a spare 34098-VUG which comes with the 18103 fitting. That fitting has a Schrader valve in it and I wasn't sure if that would work with the GM switch. They make that so you can swap bi/tri switches without having to empty the system first. I agree that the #8 would be best but VA is only making #6 line t and ports. - hence the need for the 34098 fitting. If I can piggy back the two switch fittings, that would be awesome. I am using the aluminum drier and that has no ports on it.

[dontlifttoshift]

The metric GM sensors are set up for a schrader as well. The question is does the standard thread sensor seal with an oring on the bottom like the metric one does. If so, this won't work.

[Old66Tiger]

I found this site yesterday. These are the #6 male/female inline switch fittings for either the 7/16-20 Trinary switch or the M10X1.25 metric fitting. I have a call into them to make sure that these will work. If so...the switch quandry is over.

Just confirmed with them and these fittings will work
https://coldhose.com/universal-switches.html

[parsonsj]

So I've got another couple of questions for those in the know.

1. Anybody connect a "clutch-in" sensor to the ECM? It seems that the key to not having decel pop in the exhaust during clutch-in (like a gear shift) is for the ECM to know what the clutch is doing.

2. Any thoughts on adjusting the AC torque vs AC pressure table? The factory AC compressors are variable displacement... while our after-market Sandens are clutch-controlled. Does that make a difference in how much torque is consumed by the compressor for a given amount of AC pressure?

thanks!

[mikels]

So I've got another couple of questions for those in the know.

1. Anybody connect a "clutch-in" sensor to the ECM? It seems that the key to not having decel pop in the exhaust during clutch-in (like a gear shift) is for the ECM to know what the clutch is doing.

2. Any thoughts on adjusting the AC torque vs AC pressure table? The factory AC compressors are variable displacement... while our after-market Sandens are clutch-controlled. Does that make a difference in how much torque is consumed by the compressor for a given amount of AC pressure?

thanks!

Clutch position sensor allows you to enable and use CFCO (clutch fuel cut off) similar in function to DFCO (decel fuel cut off) but obviously triggered off clutch position.

Popping can still occur if spark / fuel criteria when entering CFCO / DFCO is wrong. Many calibrators turn off DFCO to eliminate decel popping as an 'easy' fix - but why fuel an engine that you are not asking to create torque? Takes some time to get CFCO/DFCO entry / exit criteria correct to eliminate pops.

Biggest benefit from CASS (clutch apply sensor switch) is ability to rapidly drop engine RPM's with clutch apply (which puts less load into trans syncro's as well) as CFCO cuts fueling to engine. BTW - later calibrations use potentiometer style CASS - while earlier systems used Top-of-Travel and Bottom-of-Travel switches (separate). You typically cannot change the type of switch used with your particular software.

Your second question while correct - you could adjust table that relates AC compressor torque to pressure, but really makes no difference as you are likely not using torque model (or it is vastly incorrect) if you have modified your engine. The slight load from AC compressor is nothing to the engine (assuming V8's.....). This does assume you do not have spark advanced at idle so much as to remove all reserve torque (which is ability of engine to absorb additional torque loads with negligable effects).

Dave

[parsonsj]

Thanks Dave. I followed your whole post... I've learned a lot about how GM tunes the LS9 with the E67 in the past few months.

I agree with you about DFCO. Seems like a little time can get that right -- but I am chasing decel popping, and nothing I've done has made any real difference in that. I didn't install a CASS sensor -- though I will on the next car.

My customer's engine is stock, except for the intake tube and exhaust. I'd think the torque model would be pretty close. I've got some histograms defined that I think can help me validate that, though I need a loaded dyno to make sure. In the meantime, I've increased the AC torque table by 10% to see if can get a softer response when I turn on/off the AC.

I've reduced coast down spark to reduce popping on decel and clutch in... I'll post back if I make good progress.

[parsonsj]

I added about 5-8 degrees of spark advance from 800 rpm to 4000 rpm in the lowest three rows of coast down spark (.08, .12, .16 cyl air), and blended those changes in to the row and columns around that.

Big improvement.

I see the WB go lean during decel (16.00 +) with spark from 28 to 40 depending on rpm, no Knock Retard, and just a hint of decel pop.

Now to fix the occasional stall when rolling to a stop.

[Old66Tiger]

Interesting finds John. I have the issue with the engine rpms diving too low when rolling to a stop as well. I had a guy that was helping me do some tuning, but now I am armed with a copy of hp tuners and looking to become dangerous.

[parsonsj]

Here's the stall scenario:


Deep decel due to heavy braking.
WB goes lean (15.8), injectors are around .5ms.
STFT pegs (+34%).
RPM is dropping, and WB begins to fall back. TPS is just above where idle would be. 20% or so.
Injectors increase bw to 1.1 ms, WB comes down past stoich as idle speed is reached (800 rpm).
Timing begins to advance to help catch the idle (0 to 32 or so). STFT is still at 34%.
Engine speed goes to 450 rpm. Sometimes it stalls, sometimes it doesn't.

[parsonsj]

I fixed the stalling issue in the Minimum Idle Airflow table. (many thanks to Mike Norris!). He suggested some fairly high numbers (as if the car had a big cam), and that immediately cured the stall. I fussed some more and reduced the numbers just a bit from Mike's suggestion and the car returns to idle perfectly.

I think the lesson (perhaps?) is that my intake tube is a bit turbulent due to the tight confines and weird direction of the factory LS9 throttle body. Or maybe the big headers or new injectors required that.

Anyway, as Mike says, the motor wants what it wants. It's time to get this car delivered.

[Old66Tiger]

John,

Can you post a screen shot of the table you modified?

Thanks.

I fixed the stalling issue in the Minimum Idle Airflow table. (many thanks to Mike Norris!). He suggested some fairly high numbers (as if the car had a big cam), and that immediately cured the stall. I fussed some more and reduced the numbers just a bit from Mike's suggestion and the car returns to idle perfectly.

I think the lesson (perhaps?) is that my intake tube is a bit turbulent due to the tight confines and weird direction of the factory LS9 throttle body. Or maybe the big headers or new injectors required that.

Anyway, as Mike says, the motor wants what it wants. It's time to get this car delivered.

[parsonsj]

Let's try this:

[Z06vette]

After reading thru this entire 35 pages, I have a question on the fan controller. Right now im running an LS2 w e38. The e38 was from an 08 2500 6.0 truck w clutch fan. I am NOT looking to run the fans in PWM, as my harness is wired to run them on/off. I have a guy that tunes for me w efi live. We eventually got the ecm to work the fans, but they pulse the when running. He can command both fans and they run full speed with no pulse. I believe I am missing the "discrete" setting..., and it is still in PWM mode. This is my first e38 after many 411's in numerous swaps. Also, I am running a trinary switch for the AC. Is there any ecm settings that need to be altered to make all this work together?
Great thread, and thanks for the help.
Scott

[andrewb70]

If you decide to run the Corvette fan module & control the fan from the ECM, I have the module connectors. $55 shipped.


http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150820_153531.jpg

Hey Scot,

Have you actually tried plugging that connector body into a C6 fan controller?

Also, the small terminal that you sent me is not the one that you have in the picture above.

Andrew

[samckitt]

Hey Scot,

Have you actually tried plugging that connector body into a C6 fan controller?

Also, the small terminal that you sent me is not the one that you have in the picture above.

Andrew

I have one on the Monte. And have sold close to a dozen, no one has mentioned any problem. What problem are you having? All the parts I have for these I keep in the same box, no other parts, so I don't see any way I could have mixed them up. Send me a pic of the small terminal you have.


Scot

[andrewb70]

I have one on the Monte. And have sold close to a dozen, no one has mentioned any problem. What problem are you having? All the parts I have for these I keep in the same box, no other parts, so I don't see any way I could have mixed them up. Send me a pic of the small terminal you have.


Scot

The main connector body needs has cavities between terminals 1/2, 2/3, and 3/4. The cavity between 1/2 is filled, but I was able to clearance it enough so that the guide pins that are on the fan controller can slide in now.

PM me your email address and I can send you the picture of the small terminal (for the PWM wire) that you sent me. It's nothing like the one you have in your picture.

Andrew

[Old66Tiger]

After reading thru this entire 35 pages, I have a question on the fan controller. Right now im running an LS2 w e38. The e38 was from an 08 2500 6.0 truck w clutch fan. I am NOT looking to run the fans in PWM, as my harness is wired to run them on/off. I have a guy that tunes for me w efi live. We eventually got the ecm to work the fans, but they pulse the when running. He can command both fans and they run full speed with no pulse. I believe I am missing the "discrete" setting..., and it is still in PWM mode. This is my first e38 after many 411's in numerous swaps. Also, I am running a trinary switch for the AC. Is there any ecm settings that need to be altered to make all this work together?
Great thread, and thanks for the help.
Scott

Scott. It is possible that you are setup in discrete but the VA system is pulsing the fans through the controller via the trinary switch. I was told by VA that the evaporator controller will turn the AC compressor on and off based on what the probe is seeing in the coils under the dash.

I am in the process of gathering all of the parts to set up my fans to run PWM with the use of a AC pressure switch. It will go in line with the trinary and should allow the fans to work on pressure rather than the state of the compressor clutch. I will be posting all of these parts once I get everything figured out.

[Z06vette]

I'm not sure that is the case, but I dont know enough about the software to rule that out. On my old setup - 24x LS1, 411 ecm There was an ac wire from the ecm that connected to the compressor 12+ wire. The E38 harness (from same vendor) does not have that feed. I ran the trinary switch on both cars to one of the fan relays. I spliced the trinary with the ecm fan1 trigger wire that goes to the fan relay. On my LS1 setup, this would allow either the trinary signal, or the ecm (via temp) to trigger the fan. It worked well. I wired this car the same way. The E38 was from an LY6 2500, which had a clutch fan. My tuner can command the fans via the laptop and they both run nice & steady. The car is getting some paint touch up right now; I'll revisit this when I get the car back. Thanks for your input. Scott

[vstol]

I too have read all the posts and have a question. I have a LS3/427 with a reprogramed GM ECM from Blue Print Engines. I just purchased a Dewitt radiator with dual Spal fans. Dewitt says I can not run the fans off the ECM (wire already there from ECM). Not a big deal if I can not but I am not sure why not. Comments? Thanks

[4wheels]

Could you be more specific on what you have (more details)?

What fans do you have from Dewitts. They sell the Spal conventional fans and the DC brushless fans. Control strategy/system is very different depending on which ones you have.

Even with the conventional fans, did they supply the wiring harness? If so how do they have them wires (simple ON/OFF control or High/Low speed using relays more like a earlier GM vehicle).

And then how did Blueprint programming the ECM. What did they expect it to be doing?

And what ECM wiring harness configuration do you have?


I too have read all the posts and have a question. I have a LS3/427 with a reprogramed GM ECM from Blue Print Engines. I just purchased a Dewitt radiator with dual Spal fans. Dewitt says I can not run the fans off the ECM (wire already there from ECM). Not a big deal if I can not but I am not sure why not. Comments? Thanks

[vstol]

Could you be more specific on what you have (more details)?

What fans do you have from Dewitts. They sell the Spal conventional fans and the DC brushless fans. Control strategy/system is very different depending on which ones you have.

Even with the conventional fans, did they supply the wiring harness? If so how do they have them wires (simple ON/OFF control or High/Low speed using relays more like a earlier GM vehicle).

And then how did Blueprint programming the ECM. What did they expect it to be doing?

And what ECM wiring harness configuration do you have?

I will get the exact specs but the relays and harness for the dual Spal fans are included with basically a on off switch at 195/175. The ECM for the engine is a GM setup with the power wire from the ECM to the fans. I would think it would work since it would send the power when the temp was reached on the engine. Thanks

[mikels]

I am in the process of gathering all of the parts to set up my fans to run PWM with the use of a AC pressure switch. It will go in line with the trinary and should allow the fans to work on pressure rather than the state of the compressor clutch. I will be posting all of these parts once I get everything figured out.

Unless you are using just an open/closed AC pressure switch in series with trinary, only way to use true AC pressure sensor is to wire to ECM and use it to control fan output based on AC pressure.

GM ECM's actually have an AC clutch output - issue is AC request comes from BCM (body control module) over CAN to ECM then ECM controls compressor. This allows feed-forward control of increased load from AC compressor to be accounted for - preventing RPM sags and droops. Given that most on this site are running V8's with considerable torque reserve (even at idle) usually not an issue without this functionality.

Lacking this capability (integrated BCM), best method is to use Vintage Air (or like) trinary switch to control compressor and AC pressure sensor wired (and calibrated) in ECM to control fans. Not quite OEM, but damn close (and way better than AC on=fan(s) on).

Dave

[Old66Tiger]

Yes, I am putting the GM AC pressure sensor in line with the trinary. I can monitor AC pressures and ramp fan speeds based on pressure. The compressor is controlled separately.

[SlowProgress]

Does anyone know the part numbers for the mating connector on the 2016 CTSV fan. I don't know if it is used other places but figured one of you may know?

http://i.imgur.com/yM7wHTIl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/G9tFVxTl.jpg

[andrewb70]

Does anyone know the part numbers for the mating connector on the 2016 CTSV fan. I don't know if it is used other places but figured one of you may know?

http://i.imgur.com/yM7wHTIl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/G9tFVxTl.jpg

Can you post a picture of the fan itself? Is this a 800 watt fan? Presumably a 2016 CTSV uses a PWM controller for that fan...

Andrew

[SlowProgress]

Hey Andrew. Here is a photo from the build thread.

http://i.imgur.com/BFQMxeXl.jpg

The Fan part number is 23455465. I think others have said it is around 850W at maximum, so around 70A roughly. I am sure there are other connectors out there but I was sort of hoping to find this one.

[samckitt]

Is this it?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150820_154548.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150820_154629.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150820_154616.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150820_154646.jpg

[will69camaro]

I can't say 100%, but I pulled mine off of early 2000 front wheel drive cars. I pulled a few for friends & they all worked. I bought the connector from EFI Connection & it was the same connector as what I found in the junkyard. I assumed/hoped that it was the same sensor. I think I paid $5 a piece for the connector pigtail, sensor, & segment of hose.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141009_204653_edit.jpg

I haven't done it on my AC line yet, but buddy took one of these to AC shop & they removed the fitting from the tube & then braised to an elbow that then gets crimped onto a hose.

For what it's worth, a Vendor sells something that would make this slightly easier possibly.

http://www.restomodair.com/shopproducts/t-fitting/

I think that's the route I'll be going.

[SlowProgress]

Is this it?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150820_154548.jpg


http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150820_154646.jpg

That looks like it. I am interested in the shell, seals, large terminal and the small PWM terminal for the mating side (socket side). See slightly better photo below.

http://i.imgur.com/B0XJ7Rql.jpg

Thanks,

Scott

[samckitt]

I ordered 15 sets the last time I ordered the PWM module connectors to sell as pairs. But the place I ordered from said that was all the parts that make up the assembly that theirs doesnt require the white piece. Not sure how watertight it would be.

[SlowProgress]

So does the female side have the gasket shown in the junkyard version you posted back around page 24 or so?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150519_214032.jpg[/QUOTE]

If so I would be interested in the mating female connector pins and the seal (shown here in orange).

Scott

[4wheels]

Some of the service information for the 2016 CTS-V, ATS-V and Camaro refer to a fan controller but the controller is integral to the fan itself so the ECM is sending the control signal directly to the fan. No separate/serviceable controller exists as the DC brushless (BLDC) controller is built into the fan.


Can you post a picture of the fan itself? Is this a 800 watt fan? Presumably a 2016 CTSV uses a PWM controller for that fan...

Andrew

[samckitt]

So does the female side have the gasket shown in the junkyard version you posted back around page 24 or so?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150519_214032.jpg

If so I would be interested in the mating female connector pins and the seal (shown here in orange).

Scott

The only seals I have are the ones for the wire to connector body. I have emailed the place I ordered them from to see if they have the gaskets.

[andrewb70]

Some of the service information for the 2016 CTS-V, ATS-V and Camaro refer to a fan controller but the controller is integral to the fan itself so the ECM is sending the control signal directly to the fan. No separate/serviceable controller exists as the DC brushless (BLDC) controller is built into the fan.

So is the fan looking for a PWM- signal at the same 128Hz?

Andrew

[4wheels]

Most of the fan controllers accept a fairly wide frequency range sp I wouldn't be surprised if all of the GM applications being discussed would operate correctly at 100 to 128 hz. You do have to be careful as to what the expected duty cycle is. What is maximum speed on one variable speed fan (or pump) can be off or an error mode with another.

Some fans also have different polarity of the signal, causing the desired fan control logic to be swapped (maximum speed vs minimum speed).

So is the fan looking for a PWM- signal at the same 128Hz?

Andrew

[SlowProgress]

The only seals I have are the ones for the wire to connector body. I have emailed the place I ordered them from to see if they have the gaskets.

Thanks for all the good information guys. I won't be wiring until later this year so let me know on the gasket if you hear back. It sounds (and looks) like you have everything else right there.

PWM Controller - I think it was clear earlier but just in case anyone is confused this fan has the controller integrated into the fan motor housing.

Scott

[andrewb70]

.....

PWM Controller - I think it was clear earlier but just in case anyone is confused this fan has the controller integrated into the fan motor housing.

Scott

Scott,

Do you know the exact specifications as to what the controller is looking for?

Andrew

[SlowProgress]

Scott,

Do you know the exact specifications as to what the controller is looking for?

Andrew

I haven't gotten that far yet. I figured when I get there I would try to get in touch with Spal, or bug someone smart like Mikels. I don't even have the ECU installed yet.

Scott

[andrewb70]

I haven't gotten that far yet. I figured when I get there I would try to get in touch with Spal, or bug someone smart like Mikels. I don't even have the ECU installed yet.

Scott

Scott,

Please post whatever information you can find. The CTSV fan seems like a good value give the output and the fact that the PWM controller is built into the assembly.

Do you happen to have rough dimensions? Also, if you have more picture of how the fan is mounted to the radiator, that would be appreciated.

Andrew

[SlowProgress]

Andrew it is roughly 22x24 inches. I will post up some tape measure photos. C&R did the drawings and it picks up six holes already on the fan. I cut off some of the tabs that were not needed. I thought it was a good value as well. You do need to modify the core support which I was planning anyway to use this big fan.

[SlowProgress]

Scott,

Please post whatever information you can find. The CTSV fan seems like a good value give the output and the fact that the PWM controller is built into the assembly.

Do you happen to have rough dimensions? Also, if you have more picture of how the fan is mounted to the radiator, that would be appreciated.

Andrew

Andrew the fan just mounts with six screw (three each top and bottom). The radiator is actually sort of designed around the fan. There is also a bracket in front to mount the Vintage Air condenser.

http://i.imgur.com/qisB6Yil.jpg

The overall fan and radiator height is around 22 inches.

http://i.imgur.com/D3tjwEzl.jpg

The width of the fan is around 24 inches and the radiator tank outside to outside is about 28.5 inches.

http://i.imgur.com/Ohertgzl.jpg

You know the guys at C&R are really helpful. If you asked for the drawing in .PDF I think they would share it with you.

http://i.imgur.com/tai9kAUl.png

[4wheels]

Just to clarify, all of the DC brushless fans that I am familiar with have the BLDC controller built into the fan and then take a speed control signal as an input.

Other vehicles that have DC brushless variable speed fans are:

2014-2016 CK trucks including Silverado, Sierra (dual Bosch fans)
2015-2015 CK SUVs (Escalade, Tahoe, Yukon, Suburban) - also dual Bosch fans
2016 ATS-V
2016 CTS-V
2014-2016 C7 Corvette
2015-2016 C7 Z06 Corvette
2016 Camaro
and many other newer vehicles.


They can usually be identified by the connector configuration and wiring. Should be three wires - two large gauge wires (power and ground) and then a third small gauge wire that is the speed control signal input to the fan.



Scott,

Please post whatever information you can find. The CTSV fan seems like a good value give the output and the fact that the PWM controller is built into the assembly.

Do you happen to have rough dimensions? Also, if you have more picture of how the fan is mounted to the radiator, that would be appreciated.

Andrew

[mikentosh]

Wondering if anybody has troubleshooting advice for the PWM signal coming from an E38 ECU? I'm not seeing any PWM signal coming out from X1 pin 58.

I took my multimeter and put black probe to DkGrn wire coming from X1 pin 58, and red probe to battery positive terminal, and set to DC volts. Turning key on I can see the voltage go up to about 1.2V but regardless of toggling fans and duty cycle in HP Tuners I don't see any change. I would expect to see either ~5V or ~12V across here but do not. I didn't even bother to switch my multimeter over to duty cycle measurement, but assumed without the higher voltage its not working.

Any ideas on further troubleshooting? Pin 58 is a ground PWM signal correct?

[andrewb70]

....

...Pin 58 is a ground PWM signal correct?

That part I know to be correct, but I can't help with anything else.

Andrew

[mikentosh]

That part I know to be correct, but I can't help with anything else.

Andrew

Thanks. I looked at it again on the weekend and realized that I was monitoring it while it was hooked up to the C6 fan relay. Once I disconnected the fan module I see it taking 12V to ground when key is on, regardless of fan state in the ECU. Interestingly I also flashed the ECU back to discrete fans and am observing the same situation, so I'm going to give up for now and wait until I've switched over to the Holley Dominator setup.

[andrewb70]

...so I'm going to give up for now and wait until I've switched over to the Holley Dominator setup.

Now that, I can help you with!

Andrew

[dhanks]

For what it's worth, I'm using Dakota Digital's VHX + fan controller with my GM LSX and it works great.

[mikentosh]

Now that, I can help you with!

Andrew

Just as a followup, we did the switch to the Dominator setup and, as expected, its working great!

[andrewb70]

Just as a followup, we did the switch to the Dominator setup and, as expected, its working great!

Excellent. The set-up on either the Dominator or the HP is pretty straightforward.

Andrew

[PTAddict]

Hey Andrew. Here is a photo from the build thread.

http://i.imgur.com/BFQMxeXl.jpg

The Fan part number is 23455465. I think others have said it is around 850W at maximum, so around 70A roughly. I am sure there are other connectors out there but I was sort of hoping to find this one.

Hi SP,

When I look up this part number on the various GM part sites, it shows up as an ATS-V fan, and the picture looks quite different than the fan you show. And for some reason none of the sites list parts for the 2016 CTS-V. If you get a chance to double-check that number, I'd appreciate it - looking to use the same fan on my latest upgrade.

Do you know if this is the fan Stielow used on JA? It looks pretty similar ...

Edit: The local dealer also lists this as the part number for CTS-V, so I went ahead and ordered one. I guess I should know those pictures won't always match up :) Sorry for any bother.

Scott

[mikels]

Wondering if anybody has troubleshooting advice for the PWM signal coming from an E38 ECU? I'm not seeing any PWM signal coming out from X1 pin 58.

I took my multimeter and put black probe to DkGrn wire coming from X1 pin 58, and red probe to battery positive terminal, and set to DC volts. Turning key on I can see the voltage go up to about 1.2V but regardless of toggling fans and duty cycle in HP Tuners I don't see any change. I would expect to see either ~5V or ~12V across here but do not. I didn't even bother to switch my multimeter over to duty cycle measurement, but assumed without the higher voltage its not working.

Any ideas on further troubleshooting? Pin 58 is a ground PWM signal correct?

PWM fan output is frequency output - will not be able to 'measure' with voltmeter.

Cal also needs to be set to PWM output and frequency matched to PWM controller. All E40, E38, E67, E92 (and most all other GM ECM's from recent years) are capable of PWM fan control.

BTW - GM crate controller wiring joins fan1 and fan2 outputs to relay - need to separate to send fan1 only to PWM controller.

Dave

[mikels]

Hi SP,

When I look up this part number on the various GM part sites, it shows up as an ATS-V fan, and the picture looks quite different than the fan you show. And for some reason none of the sites list parts for the 2016 CTS-V. If you get a chance to double-check that number, I'd appreciate it - looking to use the same fan on my latest upgrade.

Do you know if this is the fan Stielow used on JA? It looks pretty similar ...

Thanks for any info,

Scott

ATS-V and CTS-V fans are same - except for where wiring harness to fan is located (hence the different part numbers).

Yes - this is fan used by Mark on JA2.0.

Dave

[andrewb70]

ATS-V and CTS-V fans are same - except for where wiring harness to fan is located (hence the different part numbers).

Yes - this is fan used by Mark on JA2.0.

Dave

Dave,

So the above mentioned fans have the controller built in, is that right?

Andrew

[andrewb70]

If anyone is trying to score a C6 fan controller at the junk yard, you can also look for 2006-2009 Ford Fusions. They use the same controller and it won't have a "Corvette Tax."

Andrew

[andrewb70]

That looks like it. I am interested in the shell, seals, large terminal and the small PWM terminal for the mating side (socket side). See slightly better photo below.

http://i.imgur.com/B0XJ7Rql.jpg

Thanks,

Scott

Scott or Scot,

Anyone care to post the information on this connector? Manufacturer? Series? etc...?

Andrew

[erick_e]

Scott or Scot,

Anyone care to post the information on this connector? Manufacturer? Series? etc...?

Andrew

If it's the same connector that the SPAL brushless uses it's a Yazaki connector, I tried to source one without much success so I just bought the SPAL version which is assembled by Chief Enterprises

[andrewb70]

So I found some interesting information regarding the C6 fan controller and the Yazaki connectors. Someone on YB reported that the 2006-2009 Ford Fusion uses the same controller as the C6. So I went to the Pull-A-Part and their inventory showed two in stock. One had the whole front end missing, so that was a bust, but the other was mostly intact and had the radiator removed and was sitting on the engine, as if presenting itself. Low and behold, on the fan shroud was a very familiar finned aluminum box. I had to borrow a T25 Torx, but after a minute I had the controller off. The connector at the controller looked exactly like the Kostel connector that we've been sourcing from Mouser. On the power feed side was a mondo Yazaki male connector. Of course on the chassis wiring side was a matching female connector. I scored the whole thing, took it home, plugged it into my Cougar and it worked perfectly.

Today I went back and got the female Yazaki connector from the Fusion that had the front end missing. These connectors are super robust and by the accounts here, should fit the new CTSV/ATSV fans with the built in controller.

Now, if we can only find the part numbers for the large female terminals, then we will be all set!

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Here is the controller I pulled from the Ford Fusion...

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/cougar/730.jpg

It had marking on the sticker, but I accidentally wiped them off when I was cleaning it. It had the same wiring diagram as the C6 controller, with the only difference being this one is made in Mexico. Presumably to cut cost for the Ford Fusion.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

The information below is for a Holley HP or Dominator system, but I thought it would be handy to post it here.


So recently a buddy of mine presented me with a challenge. He has a street car that uses a Dominator ECU and he is using the C6 fan controller, just like I am. However, his car has A/C and he wanted to have the fan turn on at a predefined duty cycle whenever the A/C kicks on. I also know that some of you have the desire to be able to toggle the fan to full speed while at the track, and with the configuration that I previously posted, this is not possible. There may be other ways to do this, but this is what I came up with and it seems to work very well. I am testing it with a manual trigger through a virtual switch on my Holley 7" dash, but any switch will work, including a A/C compressor trigger.

First you need to create an Input and assign it to a pin (hopefully y'all know how to do that already). In my case I created a 20v sensor, but I see no reason why creating a 5v sensor wouldn't work either...

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/IO.jpg

Then you have to configure the sensor. I chose the Custom 20v from the dropdown menu and gave the sensor a minimum value of 0 and a max of 1. Essentially what I am doing is creating a binary switch. The reason for doing this is that simple 12+ or Ground triggers are not selectable in the PWM table, but custom sensors are!

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/sensor1.JPG

Here is the bottom of the screen...On the bottom scale, half the values are given a value of zero and the rest ramps up from 10-20v. Then I configure voltage values of zero to be zero and voltage values above 10v to have a value of 1.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/sensor2.JPG


Now we can move to the PWM output screen and configure it. The Y-axis remains CTS but instead of having MPH on the X-axis, as I used to have, now I select the new A/C sensor that I created. The resulting table looks like this:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/PWM2.JPG


This essentially splits the PWM table into to different conditions and they function independently, based on whether the trigger we created is ON (value 1) or OFF (value 0)...This set-up should work just fine for anyone that wants to turn their fan on at the drag strip...but it creates a different situation if you want the fan on when the A/C is on. With this configuration, even at highway speeds, the fan will be running at 50% (or whatever we assign to the cell of value 1 on the X-axis), which isn't really needed or desirable. In order to fix this, I have created conditional sensor triggers that will activate the PWM table.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/triggers.JPG

I have set MPH as a trigger and set it to activate the table at speeds below 30 mph, and I also set the table to activate when temperatures are above 200 degrees. So in my friends case, with the A/C ON the fan will operate at 50% while at speeds below 30mph. Above that speed the fan is OFF, even when the A/C ON, however, if the CTS goes above 200 degrees, the table PWM table is activated again. Also keep in mind that the whole left side of the PWM table can have different values in all the cells. So you can have a minimum of 50%, but if CTS starts climbing, higher fan speeds can be commended.

With the A/C OFF, again, the right side of the PWM table is activated below 30 mph (this of course can be changed) or when the CTS goes above 200 degrees (this too can be changed).

This configuration should work for different set-ups and scenarios but the trigger values will have to be tuned to your particular combinations. This is due to variance in fans, hoods, thermostats, etc....

Any and all comments are welcome...

Andrew

[CarlC]

Now, if we can only find the part numbers for the large female terminals, then we will be all set!
Andrew

Andrew,

Have you tried searching here ? https://apps.us.yazaki.com/ComponentCatalog/Component_Detail.aspx?SearchItemPN=71164036

You may have to take some measurements and do a deep-dive into the drawings but they should be in there.

Delphi terminals and connectors are soooooooo much easier.

[will69camaro]

I appreciate this thread guys and all the information in it. Been setting up the programming in mine and having some success so far using the c6 module and the Holley system. Can't wait to play with it more.

May have similar logic setup to the last example with the AC switch.

[mikentosh]

The information below is for a Holley HP or Dominator system, but I thought it would be handy to post it here.


Andrew, great information! I was a little stumped on how to get the A/C to trigger the PWM fans, so will try this now. Thanks!

[Partsjockey]

On your controllers from a fusion most mazda cars will also have a similar controller.Hope this helps just my .02

[PTAddict]

Does anyone know what the difference between PWM electrical and PWM EV fan control signals in a GM ECU application? Is one +12V and the other a modulated ground? This latest CTS-V fan apparently is configured as PWM EV, and I'm trying to figure out how to emulate that with a Motec ECU ...

Thanks for any help.

Scott

[andrewb70]

Does anyone know what the difference between PWM electrical and PWM EV fan control signals in a GM ECU application? Is one +12V and the other a modulated ground? This latest CTS-V fan apparently is configured as PWM EV, and I'm trying to figure out how to emulate that with a Motec ECU ...

Thanks for any help.

Scott

Scott,

Have you tried using PWM- like we have done with the C6 fan controllers?

Andrew

[PTAddict]

Scott,

Have you tried using PWM- like we have done with the C6 fan controllers?

Andrew

Andrew,

Thanks for responding. I think I should have explained my question better.

The fan is definitely PWM controlled. The question is, what is the nature of the modulated signal? For instance, you can pulse a +12V signal, or pulse a ground connection (some aftermarket ECUs control analog gauges this way, for instance). And some kinds of PWM control "invert" the logic, e.g. wider pulses can mean slower speed instead of faster.

The GM ECUs have 3 kinds of PWM configuration: PWM Electrical, PWM EV, and PWM MRF, as they are called in HPTuners. I'm quite sure that PWM Electrical is a modulated +12V signal, but I don't know what the others do, specifically the PWM EV signal for controlling the CTSV fan. Don't want to damage an ECU or fan controller by guessing wrong.

BTW, PWM EV is apparently so named because it's the signal type used to control the "electro-viscous" fan clutches on some trucks. I'm guessing by what I can Google that this could be a modulated ground, but I'm hoping someone with more GM ECU hands-on can clarify.

Thanks much,

Scott

[dontlifttoshift]

Doing a Connect and Cruise LSA. Is it confirmed that I can _not_ control the fans with PWM with a GMPP E67?

[andrewb70]

Doing a Connect and Cruise LSA. Is it confirmed that I can _not_ control the fans with PWM with a GMPP E67?

JP and I have discussed this quite a bit. When he was doing the white LS9 Camaro he had to do all kinds of BS to get it to work. He called GM and got some unclear information and was told PWM is not possible on the GMPP harness kits. This is in contrast to Scot's experience, but Scot's kit is much older.

I suspect at some point GM changed the firmware/OS (pure speculation) to render PWM not functional. JP ended up getting a used E67, refreshing it with a Corvette LS9 OS and was able to make it work.

Hopefully JP jumps in here to clarify, but that's my recollection.

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

Yeah, that's what I read, I was hoping that maybe it was just a Florida problem. :) Trying to make this install as OEM as possible and thought it would be a nice touch.

[andrewb70]

Yeah, that's what I read, I was hoping that maybe it was just a Florida problem. :) Trying to make this install as OEM as possible and thought it would be a nice touch.

Donny,

Presumably this is for a customer, in which case I would encourage you to make this work for him/her...It really makes for a much nicer driving experience. It may be a Florida problem, so you should try it out for yourself.

Andrew

[samckitt]

Scot's kit is much older? Scot me? What kit is older? My GMPP controller kit? How do I find how old it is?

Yes I'm running the fan through a PWM control box from a GMPP LS3 controller. Friend of mine is also. Had to add some wires to the harness, and reprogram ECM for it.

[andrewb70]

Scot's kit is much older? Scot me? What kit is older? My GMPP controller kit? How do I find how old it is?

Yes I'm running the fan through a PWM control box from a GMPP LS3 controller. Friend of mine is also. Had to add some wires to the harness, and reprogram ECM for it.

I recall you saying that your kit is from around 2010...I could be wrong in my recollections...

Mine is from 2008 but I have not tried to implement PWM on my GMPP kit.

Andrew

[samckitt]

I bought mine Round 2010/2011 from another member here. It was still new in box, but not sure how long it sat on the shelf.

Can the full OS on the ECM be reprogrammed from HP tuners vs just tuning it?

[dontlifttoshift]

Andrew, I agree, it's the only way to fly. I just finished a car and we ran the fan PWM, ac pressure sensor and everything, but that was with a Speartech harness and E67.

I just don't want to start from scratch with the rest of the tune if we have to reflash another ecm. Further complicating the situation is fact that this an Erod crate engine and must pass emissions when it lands in California.

[mikels]

JP and I have discussed this quite a bit. When he was doing the white LS9 Camaro he had to do all kinds of BS to get it to work. He called GM and got some unclear information and was told PWM is not possible on the GMPP harness kits. This is in contrast to Scot's experience, but Scot's kit is much older.

I suspect at some point GM changed the firmware/OS (pure speculation) to render PWM not functional. JP ended up getting a used E67, refreshing it with a Corvette LS9 OS and was able to make it work.

Hopefully JP jumps in here to clarify, but that's my recollection.

Andrew

While there has been several 'releases' of calibrations for the LS crate engines, the software has remained the same.

So enabling PWM fan control is matter of wiring properly and enabling in calibration.

Dave

[samckitt]

Somewhere in this thread is the pinout for the E67 with callout on which spots to add wires & pins to for the PWM functionality. I have the full pinout chart if anyone wants it. I also have a PDF with instructions on how to disassemble the ECM connectors.

[vannatta20]

Anyone have any luck getting PWM output from an E38 ecu with a camaro OS? No matter what settings I use it will not output a signal. If I use a truck OS I get a PWM signal easily. The truck OS does not see AC pressure. The car OS does. This is why I need to use a car OS. I used an oscilloscope to verify

[dontlifttoshift]

While there has been several 'releases' of calibrations for the LS crate engines, the software has remained the same.

So enabling PWM fan control is matter of wiring properly and enabling in calibration.

Dave

Apparently this is not the case. PWM does not work with the GMPP controller we have either. Yes, it is wired properly. Yes, I turned on PWM with HPTuners. No, the fan does not operate with PWM.

Temporarily wired a relay and switched back to discrete while I come up with a solution. Probably will go the same route as JP did and get a new ECM and rewrite the calibration over. I would like to find a better solution than that, if it exists. I have a couple of installs coming down the pipeline where I would prefer to use the PWM control and the GMPP harness.

Dear GM,

That's pretty stupid.

Sincerely,
Hot Rodders

[andrewb70]

Apparently this is not the case. PWM does not work with the GMPP controller we have either. Yes, it is wired properly. Yes, I turned on PWM with HPTuners. No, the fan does not operate with PWM.

Temporarily wired a relay and switched back to discrete while I come up with a solution. Probably will go the same route as JP did and get a new ECM and rewrite the calibration over. I would like to find a better solution than that, if it exists. I have a couple of installs coming down the pipeline where I would prefer to use the PWM control and the GMPP harness.

Dear GM,

That's pretty stupid.

Sincerely,
Hot Rodders

Donny,

Thanks for the confirmation. I was pretty sure that JP wasn't being a dumbass...

It would be nice to know if there was a change at some point with the GMPP ECUs. Clearly some early ones worked, while the later ones do not. It would be nice to know when the change over took place.

It would also be nice to know if the change is hardware, firmware, OS, or something else. Maybe GM is selling so many of the ECU harness packages that it was feasible to make a dedicated (lower cost) ECU? Seems pointless, but I can see some bean counter saving $10 per ECU by removing the PWM driver (or whatever it might be called).

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

Donny,

Thanks for the confirmation. I was pretty sure that JP wasn't being a dumbass...

Andrew

:) I didn't think so either, I was really hoping he had a faulty ecm along with some bad info from GM.

Mikels, if you see this and still have any connections, could you dig into this a little further and try to figure out what changed at what it takes to make it right?

[andrewb70]

:) I didn't think so either, I was really hoping he had a faulty ecm along with some bad info from GM.

Mikels, if you see this and still have any connections, could you dig into this a little further and try to figure out what changed at what it takes to make it right?

I have a really early GMPP (2008) ECU and harness kit. I'd love to implement this and also add a data point, but I don't have HP tuners...

Andrew

[mikentosh]

Anyone have any luck getting PWM output from an E38 ecu with a camaro OS? No matter what settings I use it will not output a signal. If I use a truck OS I get a PWM signal easily. The truck OS does not see AC pressure. The car OS does. This is why I need to use a car OS. I used an oscilloscope to verify

This would explain the same issue I was having earlier. I was also working with an E38 out of a Camaro. Would love to hear a response on this as we are running the setup with discrete fans on relays now and its annoying :shakehead:

Wondering if anybody has troubleshooting advice for the PWM signal coming from an E38 ECU? I'm not seeing any PWM signal coming out from X1 pin 58.

I took my multimeter and put black probe to DkGrn wire coming from X1 pin 58, and red probe to battery positive terminal, and set to DC volts. Turning key on I can see the voltage go up to about 1.2V but regardless of toggling fans and duty cycle in HP Tuners I don't see any change. I would expect to see either ~5V or ~12V across here but do not. I didn't even bother to switch my multimeter over to duty cycle measurement, but assumed without the higher voltage its not working.

Any ideas on further troubleshooting? Pin 58 is a ground PWM signal correct?

[gofastwclass]

This would explain the same issue I was having earlier. I was also working with an E38 out of a Camaro. Would love to hear a response on this as we are running the setup with discrete fans on relays now and its annoying :shakehead:

What year Camaro?
I have a 10 SS with an E38 I'm willing to experiment on using HP Tuners as time allows.

[mikentosh]

What year Camaro?
I have a 10 SS with an E38 I'm willing to experiment on using HP Tuners as time allows.

Mine is out of a '13 1LE Camaro.

[andrewb70]

Mine is out of a '13 1LE Camaro.

Mike, the signal is ground, so your volt meter needs the other side go to a hot +12v source. Are you doing that?

Andrew

[mikentosh]

Mike, the signal is ground, so your volt meter needs the other side go to a hot +12v source. Are you doing that?

Andrew

Yup, this is how I was measuring it.

We have moved the whole motor and E38 setup into another truck and still have pin 58 with a wire tap ready, if somebody solves this. These last few comments have us considering flashing the OS on the computer over to the Corvette setup. Does anybody have pointers on how that can be accomplished with HP tuners?

[andrewb70]

If anyone needs a controller with the connector and a Yazaki connector for the power feed, send me a PM.

Andrew

[Larry R]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift
We just did a Dominator in a 32 and we used a holley 500 PSI pressure transducer. This allowed us to skip the binary switch and the gm pressure sensor and do it with one sensor. We control the pwm fan and control compressor clutch engagement (high and low pressure cut off) through the ecm.

So far, it works. (End quote)

Originally I posted this under another topic, but thought it might fit better here.

I have a HP, not a Dominator, so maybe this won't work for me, also I am new at this so forgive me if I ask dumb questions. I have been pondering your solution and trying to figure out how you did this. I assume the 500PSI transducer is somehow plugged into the A/C line, presumably on the high side. The output from that transducer must somehow get into the ECU, (Inputs?), and set up to protect the A/C system in the event of too high or too low system pressure. Then is there a set point to turn on the fan, or speed it up, when the pressure reaches a particular threshold? Then is the cooling fan controlled by the ECU through a PWM for regular (or non-air conditioned) operation? If this is the set up, it would seem that some relays or diodes be necessary to prevent back feed of electricity.

Any assistance you can offer will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Larry

As an addendum, my '57 Chevy uses two Spal fans wired in both series and parallel, controlled by two temperature switches of different temperature values. At the lower temperature the fans come on wired in series, so they run at approximately alt speed. When the higher temperature is reached the fans which over to parallel wiring, therefore running at full speed. The trinary switch will override any operation or no operation of the fans and go to full RPM for the duration of what is commanded by the trinary switch. This system works well, but I do like the idea of a system that will keep the engine operating temperature more stable on a reduction of fan operation that is offered by using PWM. My Studebaker is still in the build up phase so it would not be that difficult to set it up with a PWM.

[dontlifttoshift]

Yep, transducer goes in the high side and becomes an input.

The wire that runs from your AC controls to the compressor also becomes an input.

Then a wire runs from the ECU to the compressor, that is an output. Also need an output from the ECU to the C6 pwm fan controller.

The output to the compressor will not run unless it sees 12v in from AC controls _and_ pressure is between 30 and 400 psi, matching Vintage Air's cutoff on their trinary.

The fan control side has been covered in this thread already.

The problem you may have with the HP is limited number of I/O available.

[Larry R]

Many thanks. So far I have I have not used any of the input/outputs of my HP ECU, so hopefully I will have enough. What method did you use to tap into the A/C line to mount the 500psi transducer?

[dontlifttoshift]

We machined an 1/8" npt bung and welded it into a fitting near the drier. There may be a more elegant solution than that, I never bothered to look.

[samckitt]

Many thanks. So far I have I have not used any of the input/outputs of my HP ECU, so hopefully I will have enough. What method did you use to tap into the A/C line to mount the 500psi transducer?

Got these at the junk yard, gave one to friend, he soldered/braized it onto the AC line, worked perfectly.

I think I paid $5 a piece for the connector pigtail, sensor, & segment of hose.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141009_204653_edit.jpg

[dontlifttoshift]

Right, for the GM pressure sensor that is one way to do it.

The Holley sensor is 1/8" npt.

[Larry R]

The information below is for a Holley HP or Dominator system, but I thought it would be handy to post it here.


So recently a buddy of mine presented me with a challenge. He has a street car that uses a Dominator ECU and he is using the C6 fan controller, just like I am. However, his car has A/C and he wanted to have the fan turn on at a predefined duty cycle whenever the A/C kicks on. I also know that some of you have the desire to be able to toggle the fan to full speed while at the track, and with the configuration that I previously posted, this is not possible. There may be other ways to do this, but this is what I came up with and it seems to work very well. I am testing it with a manual trigger through a virtual switch on my Holley 7" dash, but any switch will work, including a A/C compressor trigger.

First you need to create an Input and assign it to a pin (hopefully y'all know how to do that already). In my case I created a 20v sensor, but I see no reason why creating a 5v sensor wouldn't work either...

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/IO.jpg

Then you have to configure the sensor. I chose the Custom 20v from the dropdown menu and gave the sensor a minimum value of 0 and a max of 1. Essentially what I am doing is creating a binary switch. The reason for doing this is that simple 12+ or Ground triggers are not selectable in the PWM table, but custom sensors are!

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/sensor1.JPG

Here is the bottom of the screen...On the bottom scale, half the values are given a value of zero and the rest ramps up from 10-20v. Then I configure voltage values of zero to be zero and voltage values above 10v to have a value of 1.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/sensor2.JPG


Now we can move to the PWM output screen and configure it. The Y-axis remains CTS but instead of having MPH on the X-axis, as I used to have, now I select the new A/C sensor that I created. The resulting table looks like this:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/PWM2.JPG


This essentially splits the PWM table into to different conditions and they function independently, based on whether the trigger we created is ON (value 1) or OFF (value 0)...This set-up should work just fine for anyone that wants to turn their fan on at the drag strip...but it creates a different situation if you want the fan on when the A/C is on. With this configuration, even at highway speeds, the fan will be running at 50% (or whatever we assign to the cell of value 1 on the X-axis), which isn't really needed or desirable. In order to fix this, I have created conditional sensor triggers that will activate the PWM table.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/triggers.JPG

I have set MPH as a trigger and set it to activate the table at speeds below 30 mph, and I also set the table to activate when temperatures are above 200 degrees. So in my friends case, with the A/C ON the fan will operate at 50% while at speeds below 30mph. Above that speed the fan is OFF, even when the A/C ON, however, if the CTS goes above 200 degrees, the table PWM table is activated again. Also keep in mind that the whole left side of the PWM table can have different values in all the cells. So you can have a minimum of 50%, but if CTS starts climbing, higher fan speeds can be commended.

With the A/C OFF, again, the right side of the PWM table is activated below 30 mph (this of course can be changed) or when the CTS goes above 200 degrees (this too can be changed).

This configuration should work for different set-ups and scenarios but the trigger values will have to be tuned to your particular combinations. This is due to variance in fans, hoods, thermostats, etc....

Any and all comments are welcome...

Andrew

I am trying to replicate or at least to use what you created here for my car. I cannot get the LH column on the calibration table to accept the number 1 as you have in your post. Also you will note it says "A/C (x10)" but I did not put that in so I do not know where that came from. Any help you can offer will be appreciated. Larry

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/ldrollow/ecu%20graph.jpg

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/ldrollow/ecu%20graph%201.jpg

[andrewb70]

The input needs to be "custom 20v" not custom 5v.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

You actually don't have to do any of this if you have a linear AC pressure sensor. You can just create a AC pressure input and use it and coolant temp as your two axes of the PWM table. You can also add logic to turn the fan off above a certain speed and turn the fans on again if AC pressure or coolant temp rise, regardless of how fast you're moving.

What I showed is better suited for a system where there is no pressure sensor in the AC, but there is an input to the ECU to let it know that the compressor is ON.

Andrew

[Larry R]

Ok, Thanks. I assumed since I am using a linear pressure sensor that is 5 volts that I needed to have the value at 5 volts; I will set it at 20 volts. I would like to have my dual Spal fans run through the PWM, (I have the Ford version PWM), but be able to have the fan run a little faster when the A/C pressure rises to values near to what a trinary switch does.

This forum has been very enlightening for me, thanks to you and others. Larry

[badazz81z28]

Anyone know the pin out for the fan control on the E67? I can't see it on my pin out...called something else?

[andrewb70]

Yep, transducer goes in the high side and becomes an input.

The wire that runs from your AC controls to the compressor also becomes an input.

Then a wire runs from the ECU to the compressor, that is an output. Also need an output from the ECU to the C6 pwm fan controller.

The output to the compressor will not run unless it sees 12v in from AC controls _and_ pressure is between 30 and 400 psi, matching Vintage Air's cutoff on their trinary.

The fan control side has been covered in this thread already.

The problem you may have with the HP is limited number of I/O available.

Donny,

Why is there a need for the wire from the AC control to be an input to the HP?

I am trying to help Larry, but I don't know enough about AC systems, although I am good with the Holley system.

He has a 0-5v sensor installed in the AC system, but there seems to be very little variability in pressure. I sent you a PM on PT...if you have time...

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Does anyone know anything about the PWM configuration on the new LT1 and LT4 GMPP kits that use the e92 ECU?

Presumably there is a PWM output, but maybe GMPP did away with it on the retrofit kits (as they did on the e67 kits, as John Parsons experienced). I also know that the new generation of fans the WPM controller is built into the fans, so no intermediate controller (like the C6) is needed.

Andrew

[PTAddict]

Does anyone know anything about the PWM configuration on the new LT1 and LT4 GMPP kits that use the e92 ECU?

Presumably there is a PWM output, but maybe GMPP did away with it on the retrofit kits (as they did on the e67 kits, as John Parsons experienced). I also know that the new generation of fans the WPM controller is built into the fans, so no intermediate controller (like the C6) is needed.

Andrew

I have an LT4 and the GMPP controller kit, and a late model CTS-V cooling fan, but we're a month or two from finishing wiring and getting things running. I am hoping that I can reprogram the e92 with HPTuners to do PWM control as it does in a CTS-V - we'll see. Why GM would block PWM control in the crate motor ECUs is beyond me ...

[andrewb70]

I have an LT4 and the GMPP controller kit, and a late model CTS-V cooling fan, but we're a month or two from finishing wiring and getting things running. I am hoping that I can reprogram the e92 with HPTuners to do PWM control as it does in a CTS-V - we'll see. Why GM would block PWM control in the crate motor ECUs is beyond me ...

Thanks for chiming in! Please keep this thread updated. I know from another LT4 build that the stock GMPP fan configuration is discrete fan control, with a Hi and Low fan setting. PWM would be way better, especially if you're using the new CTSV 800watt fan.

Have you found a source for the Yazaki connector and terminals for the fan?

Andrew

[samckitt]

Anyone know the pin out for the fan control on the E67? I can't see it on my pin out...called something else?

The A/C pressure sensor is wired in at pins J3-21 (reference ground), J3-37 (reference 5V), and J3-57 (signal).

The PWM control wire is J3-64 (FANSPD:IMTVPS)

[ProServ]

I haven't seen the CTS-V fan. Does it use the same connectors as the C7 Corvette and the aftermarket released Spal DC brushless fans? If so I have those connectors in stock as kits with terminals seals etc.

Here is what I have:

http://photos.proservsolutions.com/FullScreenSlideShow.aspx?gallery=4823211&mt=Photo

Multiple terminals and seals are provided to account for different gauge wire applications.

Jason Haines
Product & Service Solutions LLC
[email protected]
www.proservsolutions.com


Thanks for chiming in! Please keep this thread updated. I know from another LT4 build that the stock GMPP fan configuration is discrete fan control, with a Hi and Low fan setting. PWM would be way better, especially if you're using the new CTSV 800watt fan.

Have you found a source for the Yazaki connector and terminals for the fan?

Andrew

[PTAddict]

Thanks for chiming in! Please keep this thread updated. I know from another LT4 build that the stock GMPP fan configuration is discrete fan control, with a Hi and Low fan setting. PWM would be way better, especially if you're using the new CTSV 800watt fan.

Have you found a source for the Yazaki connector and terminals for the fan?

Andrew

I got the connector from Summit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SPU-IXSBLYAZPT

Edit: the above part number is complete connector, terminals, and harness.

The GMPP controller is indeed set up for discrete control as it comes, I'm just assuming I can change that like on most GM ECU.

Scott

[andrewb70]

I got the connector from Summit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SPU-IXSBLYAZPT

Edit: the above part number is complete connector, terminals, and harness.

The GMPP controller is indeed set up for discrete control as it comes, I'm just assuming I can change that like on most GM ECU.

Scott

Scott,

Thanks for the info!!!

I am eager to see if you can change the tune in the e92 for PWM fan control.

Andrew

[blake-b]

Has the E38 been figured out for PWM fan control?

I have a 2010 Camaro and a radiator coming with twin Spal brushless fans. I called Spal and they wouldn't tell me anything because of an NDA with GM as they are an OEM supplier. I called the place building the radiator and was told the same thing but they'd see what, if anything, they could find out because they have not installed in a 2010 Camaro.

Dave Steck (DSX Tuning) is a friend of mine and I contacted him about it. He said the Corvette and Camaro E38 OS are the same but have differing CANbus communication. He said he sees no reason I can't control the fans with PWM because the OS has PWM Electric as a choice. That is a screenshot of my actual tune showing it.

Unless I missed something in this thread (quite possible) I haven't seen anyone successfully running PWM in a 5th Gen Camaro and an E38 ECM.

It would be nice to be able to just drop the new fans in, connect the wires and go.

ETA: I don't know which fans I'm getting as the place (wizard cooling) is going to use the biggest ones that will fit. 14" diameter and 3. 25" thickness was mentioned. I am not aware of any other aftermarket 5th Gen radiator having 14" fans though.

[vannatta20]

A 5th gen camaro e38 os will not support pwm. But a truck e38 os will. Also the e92 silverado controller will only support pwm at 100hertz. No discrete on the new stuff factory os.. The gmpp e92 controller will support discrete only. Its all super confusing and testing is the only way to know for sure. Lot of misinformation out there. I use an oscilloscope at work to see the signals. To get ac control the computer needs to get a serial on request from the bcm. We have a module the sends that signal along with tap shift commands for gen iv and gen v. This control the fan based on ac pressure as well. Works perfectly.

[blake-b]

A 5th gen camaro e38 os will not support pwm. But a truck e38 os will. Also the e92 silverado controller will only support pwm at 100hertz. No discrete on the new stuff factory os.. The gmpp e92 controller will support discrete only. Its all super confusing and testing is the only way to know for sure. Lot of misinformation out there. I use an oscilloscope at work to see the signals. To get ac control the computer needs to get a serial on request from the bcm. We have a module the sends that signal along with tap shift commands for gen iv and gen v. This control the fan based on ac pressure as well. Works perfectly.

Thanks for the reply. I figured out the camaro OS won't do it. However, the Spal fans come with their own PWM controller built in so it was a non issue. They come on around 165* and by 185* are full speed.

[dhutton]

Thanks for the reply. I figured out the camaro OS won't do it. However, the Spal fans come with their own PWM controller built in so it was a non issue. They come on around 165* and by 185* are full speed.

Spal fans with built in PWM controller? Could you post a part number and/or some details?

Thanks,
Don

[ProServ]

All of the DC brushless Spal fans (and most other brushless DC fans) have a built in motor controller. This is required because you can't just PWM the power to a BLDC motor - you need to control each coil in order to start the motor and control the motor speed and then you need to monitor the feedback in a sensorless motor to know speed (or have a separate speed sensor).

Spal offers temperature sensors that output the frequency and duty cycle signals the BLDC Spal fan is expecting to see. [B]NOTE - two different control logic configurations exist in the Spal aftermarket and OEM BLDC fans. Spal makes two different versions of the temperature sensors for this reason. Make sure you get the correct sensor for your fan type.

Other companies also make devices that can read a conventional temperature sensor (and in some cases other sensor signals) and then output the PWM and duty cycle signal the BLDC Spal (and other) fans are looking for.

Some heavy duty truck and industrial brushless motor fans require an external brushless motor controller. I am not aware of any current OEM passenger light duty vehicles that use this type of brushless fan control configuration though.

The Spal brushless DC fans are looking for a PWM signal that is a low level speed control signal. You are not actually connecting directly to the motor on these fans - you are connecting to the motor controller that is built into the motor assembly. These types of fans usually have 3 or 4 pins. Two small terminals and two much larger terminals. One small terminal is the speed control signal input, the two larger terminals are the high current power and ground and the fourth (if it exists) is a diagnostic signal wire. In most systems you do not have to connect anything to that fourth wire for the fan to operate correctly.

Because this speed control signal is a PWM signal people often confuse this with PWM control of a conventional brush type fan which is not at all the same. In PWM controlled brush type DC fans you are turning on and off the power to the motor at fairly high frequency so the device performing the PWM of the power has to be able to handle high current loads.

In the BLDC fans the PWM speed control signal is a low level speed control signal so it is very low current. All of the motor drive current is on the main two power wires that are connected directly to the battery (usually with a fuse but without a relay).

Spal fans with built in PWM controller? Could you post a part number and/or some details?

Thanks,
Don

[blake-b]

Spal fans with built in PWM controller? Could you post a part number and/or some details?

Thanks,
Don

This is what the invoice shows:
7-30107102 - 14" Spal Drop In Sealed Brushless Puller Fan (Plus Series) 500W 50Amp Maxi Fuse 2395 CFM

7-SBL-TS-HARN - SPAL Brushless Fan Interface Harness Kit

7-SBL-TS185P - SPAL Brushless (Plus Series) Temp Sensor-12V/24V (Minimum "on" Speed at 165 Degrees / Increasing to 100% "Full" Speed at 185 Degrees

7-SBL-YAZ-PT10 Brushless Fan Jumper Harness PigTail Yazaki Connector For Drop

The temp sensor was $145 alone

I bought a complete radiator setup with shroud, two fans, wiring, etc from Wizard Cooling in New York.

I had to reroute the cold side piping on my turbo setup because the new radiator was thicker than the OEM radiator.

[longhornss]

A 5th gen camaro e38 os will not support pwm. But a truck e38 os will. Also the e92 silverado controller will only support pwm at 100hertz. No discrete on the new stuff factory os.. The gmpp e92 controller will support discrete only. Its all super confusing and testing is the only way to know for sure. Lot of misinformation out there. I use an oscilloscope at work to see the signals. To get ac control the computer needs to get a serial on request from the bcm. We have a module the sends that signal along with tap shift commands for gen iv and gen v. This control the fan based on ac pressure as well. Works perfectly.

So I would like to run 2 spal brushless fans on my C10 build running an E92. I currently have A GMPP kit.
So with all this, it looks like need to track down a Silverado ECM and transfer the program from my GMPP controller?

[LSTOYS]

Has anyone gotten one of the 2017 CTS-V / Camaro fans to work? I bought one and I'm trying to to get it to work with my 2010 Colorado E67. I changed the fan settings to PWM EV, and 100 hz, but I can't get it to do anything. Does anyone have any details on getting this fan to work. It should be a sweet fan if I can get it working.

[VTtransam]

Is anyone running the C6 fan controller, E38 ECU, and a trunk mounted battery? I'm running OS 12628990 from a 2009 Vette, have set my fan to PWM Electric and adjusted the fan % with EFIlive (keeping max % at 89.9%).

As the car warms up, the fans will come on to a low setting for about 5 seconds and then turn off. The fan will not stay on as coolant temp rises, and I'll shut the car off around 225F as the fan are not operating properly.

Did you run the C6 fan controller power directly to the trunk mount battery and not to an underhood 12V distribution block? I have mine run off a 150amp circuit breaker /distribution block with a 60amp inline fuse between the controller and distribution block. The other side of the breaker is wired to the alternator.

Does anyone know if the PWM frequency can be adjusted with EFI live? I had a Delta Current Controls PWM controller with engine bay mounted battery and it worked well with the same dual Spal fans last year.

Thank you!

[GodSpeed]

I am trying to use a Factory ZL1 camaro fan. I have vintage air as well.

Any one have any success controlling the PWM fan as intended?

Thank you in advance.

Thom

[andrewb70]

I am trying to use a Factory ZL1 camaro fan. I have vintage air as well.

Any one have any success controlling the PWM fan as intended?

Thank you in advance.

Thom

Thom,

I have no direct experience with what you are doing, but I have some educated guesses. From what I understand, the ZL1 fans have the controller built into the fan. The connector (Yazaki) has two large pins for power and a small pin for the PWM signal wire. Again, from what I understand, you should be able to configure the ECM to send a PWM- signal to the fan and it should work. I would use the same settings of 128Hz and input the duty cycle table as with the C6 Corvette application.

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

Thom is using a E92 ECU that came with a GM LT4 connect and cruise. That ECU and harness is set up for two discrete outputs and are already wired to relays in the Chevrolet Performance fuse box.

I also want the answer to this for this application.

[dontlifttoshift]

Just so it is all on the same page.

I am trying to use a Factory ZL1 camaro fan. I have vintage air as well.

Any one have any success controlling the PWM fan as intended?

Thank you in advance.

Thom

Thom,

I have no direct experience with what you are doing, but I have some educated guesses. From what I understand, the ZL1 fans have the controller built into the fan. The connector (Yazaki) has two large pins for power and a small pin for the PWM signal wire. Again, from what I understand, you should be able to configure the ECM to send a PWM- signal to the fan and it should work. I would use the same settings of 128Hz and input the duty cycle table as with the C6 Corvette application.

Andrew

Thom is using a E92 ECU that came with a GM LT4 connect and cruise. That ECU and harness is set up for two discrete outputs and are already wired to relays in the Chevrolet Performance fuse box.

I also want the answer to this for this application.

[andrewb70]

I wish I had one of these fans to experiment with. I'd like to see if they would work with the Holley ECU.

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

I don't see why it wouldn't, it wants the same PWM signal.

The crew at V8 Speed said on a FB post that the GMPP E92 for the LT4 is programmable to run a pwm fan signal.

I am waiting for a couple of corroborating experiences, it is costly to undo.

[dhutton]

I wish I had one of these fans to experiment with. I'd like to see if they would work with the Holley ECU.

Andrew

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-2015-Camaro-ZL1-Fan-Motor-19355766-22762583-Right-Passenger-RH/263886995530?hash=item3d70e4004a:g:PjAAAOSwuNFbeH1 6

Likely won’t find one for any less....

Don

[andrewb70]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-2015-Camaro-ZL1-Fan-Motor-19355766-22762583-Right-Passenger-RH/263886995530?hash=item3d70e4004a:g:PjAAAOSwuNFbeH1 6

Likely won’t find one for any less....

Don

Don,

That looks like one of the fans from a 5th gen Camaro. I believe that if we are talking about the e92 ECU, then that would be the 6th gen Camaro...

Andrew

[dhutton]

Don,

That looks like one of the fans from a 5th gen Camaro. I believe that if we are talking about the e92 ECU, then that would be the 6th gen Camaro...

Andrew

Sorry...

Don

[andrewb70]

Sorry...

Don

No need for apologies. I am just trying to keep all of this information as accurate as possible. We're all learning here...LOL

Adapting new OEM parts to our old clunkers is not easy, but I think there are many benefits to be had. As I understand it, the new fans are quite amazing!

Andrew

[eville]

No need for apologies. I am just trying to keep all of this information as accurate as possible. We're all learning here...LOL

Adapting new OEM parts to our old clunkers is not easy, but I think there are many benefits to be had. As I understand it, the new fans are quite amazing!

Andrew

You know we're in deep when we're using words like AMAZING to describe cooling fans... LOL

[andrewb70]

You know we're in deep when we're using words like AMAZING to describe cooling fans... LOL

Geeks-R-Us...LOL

In all honesty, PWM fan control adds a great deal of refinement out our old cars. The information from this thread allowed me to implement it on my Cougar build and it truly is AMAZING! On my GTO, I am using dual Spal fans with binary fan control. The car has a relatively quiet exhaust and when the cooling fans turn on, it sounds like a jet engine.

On the Cougar, I never hear the fan, ever, and I have yet to see it go much above 50% duty cycle even on hot summer days. The C6 fan is rated at 400watts, while the new 6th gen Camaro fan, I believe is 800watts! So yes, amazing.

Andrew

[eville]

Geeks-R-Us...LOL

In all honesty, PWM fan control adds a great deal of refinement out our old cars. The information from this thread allowed me to implement it on my Cougar build and it truly is AMAZING! On my GTO, I am using dual Spal fans with binary fan control. The car has a relatively quiet exhaust and when the cooling fans turn on, it sounds like a jet engine.

On the Cougar, I never hear the fan, ever, and I have yet to see it go much above 50% duty cycle even on hot summer days. The C6 fan is rated at 400watts, while the new 6th gen Camaro fan, I believe is 800watts! So yes, amazing.

Andrew

I hear that. I'm running the dual SPAL fans on my car and with traditional relays the fan noise is very loud even with a loud exhaust and the shock to the charging system when they're switched on is significant.

I'm anxious to get the PWM setup once I get my Terminator installed and running.

Modern refinement is really what distinguishes some of these builds.

Keep the info coming. It's AMAZING. Lol

[Schmelson]

To get ac control the computer needs to get a serial on request from the bcm. We have a module the sends that signal along with tap shift commands for gen iv and gen v. This control the fan based on ac pressure as well. Works perfectly.

What module do you use? BCM?

Doing the PWM conversion. Would like to get the A/C fan request working.

[Coursey]

Has the E38 been figured out for PWM fan control?

I have a 2010 Camaro and a radiator coming with twin Spal brushless fans. I called Spal and they wouldn't tell me anything because of an NDA with GM as they are an OEM supplier. I called the place building the radiator and was told the same thing but they'd see what, if anything, they could find out because they have not installed in a 2010 Camaro.

Dave Steck (DSX Tuning) is a friend of mine and I contacted him about it. He said the Corvette and Camaro E38 OS are the same but have differing CANbus communication. He said he sees no reason I can't control the fans with PWM because the OS has PWM Electric as a choice. That is a screenshot of my actual tune showing it.

Unless I missed something in this thread (quite possible) I haven't seen anyone successfully running PWM in a 5th Gen Camaro and an E38 ECM.

It would be nice to be able to just drop the new fans in, connect the wires and go.

ETA: I don't know which fans I'm getting as the place (wizard cooling) is going to use the biggest ones that will fit. 14" diameter and 3. 25" thickness was mentioned. I am not aware of any other aftermarket 5th Gen radiator having 14" fans though.


Was you able to get this working?

I am installing the following setup in my 1976 Blazer.

L99 DOD delete with 6l80e from a 2015 Camaro

I have 2-12" Spal Brush-less fans part numbers 30107087 VA89- ABL320P/N-94A

I also have vintage air.

Looking at the wiring diagram for the brush-less fans it appears that they do not run throw a relay. It says to just install a 40 amp Maxi Fuse.


I am wanting to hook these up to run PWM so that they are variable speed like a new car. I would like the fans to be controlled by my e38 ecm. I am also installed a pressure transducer on the ac line.


With the 2 fans do i need 2 controllers?

[andrewb70]

I'm pretty sure you don't need the controllers with the brushless fans. They have everything built into the motor controllers, so you just need to provide power, ground, and a PWM- signal. Presumably the PWM- should be configured the same as with a C6 controller. This is somewhat speculative on my part.

Andrew

[Coursey]

A 5th gen camaro e38 os will not support pwm. But a truck e38 os will. Also the e92 silverado controller will only support pwm at 100hertz. No discrete on the new stuff factory os.. The gmpp e92 controller will support discrete only. Its all super confusing and testing is the only way to know for sure. Lot of misinformation out there. I use an oscilloscope at work to see the signals. To get ac control the computer needs to get a serial on request from the bcm. We have a module the sends that signal along with tap shift commands for gen iv and gen v. This control the fan based on ac pressure as well. Works perfectly.

I'm pretty sure you don't need the controllers with the brushless fans. They have everything built into the motor controllers, so you just need to provide power, ground, and a PWM- signal. Presumably the PWM- should be configured the same as with a C6 controller. This is somewhat speculative on my part.

Andrew


So will the 2015 Camaro ECM put out a PWM signal?

Be great if it can go direct to fans with no control super simple that way.

[andrewb70]

So will the 2015 Camaro ECM put out a PWM signal?

Be great if it can go direct to fans with no control super simple that way.

I do not know. I am not that familiar with the intricacies of the OEM ECUs. I'm sure someone will chime in.

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

Yes, control wire will go directly to the fan, no controller needed. You will have to change the frequency to 100hz for the spal fan instead of the standard 128hz that GM runs.

I may have that backwards, but there is a post in this thread regarding the frequency that the Spal brushless wants and it wasn't the same as GM.

[Coursey]

Yes, control wire will go directly to the fan, no controller needed. You will have to change the frequency to 100hz for the spal fan instead of the standard 128hz that GM runs.

I may have that backwards, but there is a post in this thread regarding the frequency that the Spal brushless wants and it wasn't the same as GM.

Thanks,

I just want to confirm that you are talking about using the 2015 Camaro e38 ecm.

[dontlifttoshift]

Can not confirm E38 and I honestly missed that part of the question.


Unrelated to that but relevant to the discussion, I got confirmation yesterday that Godspeed was successful with the PWM control on the E92 ecu with his GM crate LT4.

[andrewb70]

Yes, control wire will go directly to the fan, no controller needed. You will have to change the frequency to 100hz for the spal fan instead of the standard 128hz that GM runs.

I may have that backwards, but there is a post in this thread regarding the frequency that the Spal brushless wants and it wasn't the same as GM.

Donny,

The genIV ECUs and C6 fan controller want 128Hz. I don't recall anywhere in this thread where 100Hz was called for, but I may have missed it. It would be great to get a definitive answer on this, since I am primarily interested in making the Holley Dominator work with the new Spal fans and I can easily change the frequency.

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

Andrew, bolding mine.

Well, I finally got around to testing my theory about the brushless fans working with the factory ECM.

Bottom line, the factory ECU can control these fans. Since I had already replaced by previously burnt up fan connector I was able to quickly connect the brushless fan to my car with another connector. Its just as simple as connecting the B+, B-, and PWN wires together. The factory ECM commands 128Hz, and the brushless fan is recommended for 100Hz. SPAL tech support says 128 should be OK, but 100Hz would be optimal. This can easily be changed with HPTuners or EFI Live. Changing the PWM type was not required. PWM Electric is what is required, not PWM EV like the C7 Corvette.

Once connected I fired up the Tech2 and commanded the fan on. Below you see it running at 90% duty cycle. I had the fan facing down to create restricted airflow (to simulate radiator, condenser and
heat exchanger). Notice it only dropped .3v at 90%. Not bad considering the vehicle wasn't even running.

CZ1ihcmsoo0

I didn't have time to test fit Dewitt's fan shroud with my EForce. Hopefully it fits, it's a beautiful shroud. But if it doesn't fit I might be able to make the brushless fan work with the original shroud with an adapter. The fan blade is the same dimension as the OEM blade, but the motor is a little smaller in diameter. I'll cross that bridge when I have to, if I have to. Hopefully the Dewitt's shroud doesn't interfere with my coolant lines and I don't have to.

[andrewb70]

Thanks Donny!

I follow this thread closely, but somehow I missed that video!

Looks like those new Spal fans with the controller built in would be easy with the Dominator! I am always looking for cool, new stuff for future builds!

Andrew

[stan65]

Anyone know what PWM voltage the ECM is outputting? 5v, 12v?

Thinking I may tackle it as an arduino project as I have GMPP LT4 controller.

Stan

[LonnieJ]

Anyone know what PWM voltage the ECM is outputting? 5v, 12v?

Stan

I'm definitely not an expert, but from my countless hours researching I believe it is 5V:)

Lonnie

[andrewb70]

Anyone know what PWM voltage the ECM is outputting? 5v, 12v?

Thinking I may tackle it as an arduino project as I have GMPP LT4 controller.

Stan

Stan,

It is PWM- so it is pulsing to ground.

Andrew

[LonnieJ]

Thanks Andrew for setting me straight! You have forgotten more on this subject than I'll probably ever know:) The 5V most be the a/c pressure sensor?

[dhutton]

The voltage swing of the active low PWM signal would be determined by the voltage the pull-up resistor etc is connected to. If you connect it to 12 volts you will get a 12 volt signal.

Don

[jmac]

Wow, what a great thread with a wealth of knowledge from multiple contributors!

I'm very intrigued by this.

From what I've read, can you use the Spal brushless fans alone with PWM control without having to use the controller from the C6 or Ford Fusion?

I'm referring to post #445 from Blake-B.

Is the controller built in to the fan motor?

Thanks!

[samckitt]

A few people have asked me if I had any more of the connector kits for the Corvette PWM module. In the past I had kits that is the connector body, 4 large high amp terminals & seals, a small terminal & seal for the signal, & some blank plugs for the open holes. I am trying to get all the parts for the other connector that is 2 high amp terminals & one small terminal so the fan assy can be easily removed if needed.

If I was to order more to make these kits, who would be interested in them and would you want all mentioned above, or just the connector for the module itself?

Not sure yet what price would be until I find out what they are charging me. In the past I sold them for $50 shipped for the module connector kit alone. I probably can do it for less if enough ordered.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150820_153531.jpg

Trying to find both sides of this connector too:
http://i.imgur.com/yM7wHTIl.jpg

[eville]

Trying to find both sides of this connector too:
http://i.imgur.com/yM7wHTIl.jpg

Sam, I think this is what you're looking for: https://www.amazon.com/replacement-Connector-Motorcraft-9U2Z-14S411-9U2Z-14S411-LB/dp/B078MC2T3K/ref=sr_1_130?keywords=EAPP&qid=1550791746&s=gateway&sr=8-130
https://www.amazon.com/Replacement-Connectors-Terminals-30130628-Brushless/dp/B07CTDGNGT/ref=sr_1_49?keywords=EAPP&qid=1550792001&s=gateway&sr=8-49

[dontlifttoshift]

Here is a dumb thing, it is seemingly impossible to purchase a Spal brushless fan by itself anywhere on the internet. It seems they used to be everywhere and they have all ghosted.

Anyone have a source?

I'm sure DeWitts will sell me one, I was just surprised when I couldn't find it at Summit, Lane, or anywhere else where they had been listed before.

Semi related, I have the GM 600 watt fan in my hand. Part number 23376530 It is absolutely a Spal unit, their name is all over it. Not sure if that is common knowledge or not.

The fan blade measures 14 1/4"

The meat of the shroud is 23" wide and 13 1/2" tall. This would work really well on a 24 x 16 core.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/rp-part-images/assets/9f4a21ee68689885791bb1ab6a48f23d.jpg

[jmac]

Doesn't Holley sell Spal fans?

[jmac]

I just checked, and I see what you're saying.

It's hard enough to find info on the brushless fan lineup, let alone find somewhere to buy it!

[jmac]

Wizard Cooling has a bunch for their radiator setups, but don't list them individually. Found one 16" puller and one 12" pusher on Kartek.com

[dontlifttoshift]

Story is that Spal doesn't have any faith in the general publics ability to properly mount these fans. I didn't get a technical explanation. :rolleyes:

I got the one I needed ordered.

[andrewb70]

Here is a dumb thing, it is seemingly impossible to purchase a Spal brushless fan by itself anywhere on the internet. It seems they used to be everywhere and they have all ghosted.

Anyone have a source?

I'm sure DeWitts will sell me one, I was just surprised when I couldn't find it at Summit, Lane, or anywhere else where they had been listed before.

Semi related, I have the GM 600 watt fan in my hand. Part number 23376530 It is absolutely a Spal unit, their name is all over it. Not sure if that is common knowledge or not.

The fan blade measures 14 1/4"

The meat of the shroud is 23" wide and 13 1/2" tall. This would work really well on a 24 x 16 core.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/rp-part-images/assets/9f4a21ee68689885791bb1ab6a48f23d.jpg

Donny,

Do you know the OEM application for that fan?

The brushless fans are easy to spot because they have the heatsink on the motors and the big, round Yazaki connector with two big wires and a small wire for the PWM signal.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Found it. Looks like C7 Corvette.

C&R makes C7 Radiators and they will sell the little aluminum tabs that can be easily welded to any aluminum radiator. That is what I did with the C6 fan on my Cougar.

Andrew

[jmac]

So Andrew,

The brushless Spal fans have the PWM built in to the motor housing, eliminating the need for the C6 controller?

I'm just trying to get an idea of wiring, and would love to eliminate the C6 controller of I can.

Thanks!

[dontlifttoshift]

Yes, the C7 fan and the Spal brushless have the controller built in. You still need to send it a signal though and I do not know if they require the same signal.

They both appear to take the same Yazaki connector and they are available as a kit on ebay pretty reasonably.

[andrewb70]

So Andrew,

The brushless Spal fans have the PWM built in to the motor housing, eliminating the need for the C6 controller?

....

That is my understanding. I do not have first hand experience with them, but this thread has all the relevant information.

Although, if you already have a C6 controller and a good fan, I see no reason to change.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

...

They both appear to take the same Yazaki connector and they are available as a kit on ebay pretty reasonably.

Donny,

As I understand it, that big Yazaki is a USCAR standard, which explains why they are readily available. I've seen them on many makes and models.

Otherwise, sourcing Yazaki connectors and terminals is nearly impossible in the US. I went down this rabbit hole trying to source new connectors for my Toyota EPAS science project.

Andrew

[jmac]

That is my understanding. I do not have first hand experience with them, but this thread has all the relevant information.

Although, if you already have a C6 controller and a good fan, I see no reason to change.

Andrew

Thanks, I do not have the C6 controller yet, plan on using the Holley Dominator like you, just wired directly to the fan.

[eville]

Yes, the C7 fan and the Spal brushless have the controller built in. You still need to send it a signal though and I do not know if they require the same signal.

They both appear to take the same Yazaki connector and they are available as a kit on ebay pretty reasonably.

Hmmm, I'd been planning to run the C6style controller through my Holley ECU on my dual SPAL setup by Ron Davis but I wonder if SPAL makes a brushless that would bolt in place of the older style fans... would be much cleaner.

[andrewb70]

Hmmm, I'd been planning to run the C6style controller through my Holley ECU on my dual SPAL setup by Ron Davis but I wonder if SPAL makes a brushless that would bolt in place of the older style fans... would be much cleaner.

From what has been posted earlier in this thread, I see no reason why the Dominator can't work with the brushless fans. As far as brushless fans that take the place of the older dual fans, you will have to dig deep into the Spal catalog.

The trend that I am seeing with OEM applications is toward one large 600 or 800watt fan (the C6 fan is 400watt).

Andrew

[eville]

From what has been posted earlier in this thread, I see no reason why the Dominator can't work with the brushless fans. As far as brushless fans that take the place of the older dual fans, you will have to dig deep into the Spal catalog.

The trend that I am seeing with OEM applications is toward one large 600 or 800watt fan (the C6 fan is 400watt).

Andrew

Yeah, I'm only seeing 12 and 14" fans. I'll give Ron Davis a call.

[simon455]

I will be experimenting with a Chrysler hellcat brushless
Fan and e67 gmpp controller. I really hope it will actually work as I got the fan already mounted in my 68 lsa camaro. The hellcat brushless fan is looking for this signal: 12V PWM active LOW, 100hz. 10%DC is OFF, 90%DC is full on.
Don’t have acces yet to hp tuner or efi live to unable the pwm signal from discrete in my e67 controller. And from what I understand, the frequency can be altered with a efi live or hp. Is there anymore guys on here that got the brushless fans to work??
The hellcat fan is fairly inexpensive from dodge and it’s proven to work well without issues in hellcat family vehicles.

[AJG87]

First post on the forum, and forgive me if I have missed this after reading through the entirety of the thread, but is it possible to still utilize the C6 PWM controller without an a/c pressure input? I do not have an a/c system installed on the vehicle.

[andrewb70]

Yes.

Andrew

[MtotheIKEo]

This thread has been a wealth of information so thanks to everyone for contributing.

I have a Terminator X Max ECU, C6 fan, and Dorman 902-310 relay (mopar relay). I have tried a few different frequencies and have settled on 128, but there is a pretty noisy buzz from the fan. At 50% duty the fan and buzz noises are about equal, but below 50% the buzz is a bit annoying. Does the C6 relay have the same buzz? Anyone think it’s the mix of the Dorman relay and the C6 fan creating the buzz?

[andrewb70]

The C6 fan controller makes zero noise. I have never used the Dodge controller.

Andrew