PWM cooling fan(s) control using ECM

[Lous69]

I am trying to figure out what would be required to set up Pulse Width Modulated cooling fan control using the E67 ECU that came with my LSA crate motor.

The ECU that GM Performance sells to go with the LSA crate engine (part number 19259293) comes set up for On/Off fan control. I would prefer PWM fan control.

Of course I could find a stand alone PWM fan controller and run it independent of the ECU but I would prefer to have the ECU control the fans using more inputs than just the engine temp. (Such as AC pressure and ambient temperature).

Here is what I am wondering:

Can I use the PWM fan control module (Part number 10377609) that is used in the ZR 1 Corvette which also uses the E67 ECU and drive it with a signal from my ECU just like the ZR 1 Corvette does?

I'm assuming I would need to find the correct pin on the ECU and add a wire. If so, I have no problem with doing that. Does anyone know which pin that is on the E67 ECU?

I think the Trailblazer SS also used the E67 ECU. It uses pin #64 for PWM control of the cooling fan clutch. Might that be the same one the ZR 1 uses to drive the PWM fan control module?

Would the algorithms for PWM cooling fan control already be in my ECU or would they be completely absent? If absent, could I have a tuner grab that subroutine from a ZR 1 Corvette program and install it into my ECU?

Thanks in advance for any words of wisdom.

[mikels]

Simple answer is, yes - you can control a PWM fan controller with GM E67 controller (or E38 or E40).

Wiring is fairly simple - just need to wire PWM output from controller (can find wiring mech's for Corvette online pretty easily).

Obviously calibration needs to be changed as well from what controller was delivered with. Crate engine is disrete output, and you need PWM. There are several variables that need to be changed to make this work properly (including PWM frequency).

Fan output duty cycle can then be calibrated based on these inputs:
-Engine coolant temp - from ECT sensor
-AC pressure (will need to add production pressure sensor and wire as well)
-Intake air temp - IAT sensor in MAF

You can also calibrate 'after run' on fan to keep fan running at lower level after hot shut-down to reduce heat soak.

HP Tuners allows access to all these variables.

Dave

Dave

[Lous69]

Simple answer is, yes - you can control a PWM fan controller with GM E67 controller (or E38 or E40).

Wiring is fairly simple - just need to wire PWM output from controller (can find wiring mech's for Corvette online pretty easily).

Obviously calibration needs to be changed as well from what controller was delivered with. Crate engine is disrete output, and you need PWM. There are several variables that need to be changed to make this work properly (including PWM frequency).

Fan output duty cycle can then be calibrated based on these inputs:
-Engine coolant temp - from ECT sensor
-AC pressure (will need to add production pressure sensor and wire as well)
-Intake air temp - IAT sensor in MAF

You can also calibrate 'after run' on fan to keep fan running at lower level after hot shut-down to reduce heat soak.

HP Tuners allows access to all these variables.

Dave

Dave

Dave, Thank you very much for your reply. You've given me a new head of steam to figure out how to accomplish the mission.

If I understand your response it means I need to:

1.Buy the PWM fan control module used on all C6 Corvettes

2. Find a pin out diagram for the E67 ECM like the one that came with my LSA crate engine. Best bet would be the pinout for the C6 ZR1 corvette.

3. Find a wiring diagram for a ZR 1 C6 Corvette that shows the wiring between the E67 ECM and the PWM fan control module.

4. Add a wire from the PWM signal output pin on my E67 ECM and run it to the PWM fan control module.

5. Purchase AC pressure sensor used in the C6 corvette and install in my system.

6. Have my ECM programmed to provide the PWM output signals I prefer to the output pin I added the wire to.

Did I understand correctly?

Thanks again for your willingness to point me in the right direction.

[mikels]

1.Buy the PWM fan control module used on all C6 Corvettes

2. Find a pin out diagram for the E67 ECM like the one that came with my LSA crate engine. Best bet would be the pinout for the C6 ZR1 corvette.

3. Find a wiring diagram for a ZR 1 C6 Corvette that shows the wiring between the E67 ECM and the PWM fan control module.

4. Add a wire from the PWM signal output pin on my E67 ECM and run it to the PWM fan control module.

5. Purchase AC pressure sensor used in the C6 corvette and install in my system.

6. Have my ECM programmed to provide the PWM output signals I prefer to the output pin I added the wire to.


Just add step 5.5 - wire AC pressure sensor to ECM (which will also be on wiring mech for ZR1 Corvette) and you've got it.

Be sure to check origional crate engine harness - they run Fan 1 and Fan 2 output to fan relay - you need Fan 1 to go to PWM control module - and have fan power leads NOT running through relay - just a fuse.

Corvette fan (400 watt) pulls ~32 amps peak, so size fuse, wiring appropriately.

SRX fan (850 watt) we've used on Stielow's latest cars pulls ~65 amps peak.

Dave

[Lous69]

Just add step 5.5 - wire AC pressure sensor to ECM (which will also be on wiring mech for ZR1 Corvette) and you've got it.

Be sure to check origional crate engine harness - they run Fan 1 and Fan 2 output to fan relay - you need Fan 1 to go to PWM control module - and have fan power leads NOT running through relay - just a fuse.

Corvette fan (400 watt) pulls ~32 amps peak, so size fuse, wiring appropriately.

SRX fan (850 watt) we've used on Stielow's latest cars pulls ~65 amps peak.

Dave

Thank you very much for your advice Dave.

I'm curious if you would know this:

Does the software subroutine to drive a cooling fan PWM output signal already exist in the E67 ECM that came with my LSA crate motor such that it just needs to be turned on after we add the wires mentioned above or will we need to first install a program or "operating system" from a ZR1 application then modify that program with a tune for my LSA motor?

I'm wondering if the later approach would also require turning off a lot of other subroutines that the ZR1 application program or "operating system" will be looking for.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us.
Lou

[mikels]

Algorithm for PWM fan control is already in your software - just need to select 'PWM fan control' instead of 'descrete fan control' - then set calibrations to how you want fan to operate (% duty cycle based on ECT, AC pressure, IAT).

Dave

[carbuff]

Question of ignorance here, looking for a little education...

Can you use a PWM fan controller on any cooling fan, or does the fan need to be designed to handle the fast on/off switch of the PWM? In other words, would you burn-out a normal fan if using a PWM controller on it?

I haven't looked, but I'm now wondering if anyone makes an aftermarket PWM fan controller. I think the idea here is interesting, but at least from the GM implementation, it's not just a simple aftermarket conversion...

[mikels]

Question of ignorance here, looking for a little education...

Can you use a PWM fan controller on any cooling fan, or does the fan need to be designed to handle the fast on/off switch of the PWM? In other words, would you burn-out a normal fan if using a PWM controller on it?

I haven't looked, but I'm now wondering if anyone makes an aftermarket PWM fan controller. I think the idea here is interesting, but at least from the GM implementation, it's not just a simple aftermarket conversion...

The high frequency signal goes to the control module - not the fan motor directly. This causes output voltage of controller to be reduced (proportional to PWM signal). So long as fan motor can run at lower voltage levels, should not be an issue.

There are a couple aftermarket PWM fan controllers but I have no experience with them.

Dave

[Lous69]

Thanks for your continued sharing of knowledge Dave. It REALLY HELPS.

Since I am using a 2nd Gen Camaro radiator set up made by C&R that has two large fans, I plan to use two of the GM PWM fan control modules.

My thinking is that GM validated those modules for the current draw of just one C6 Corvette fan. Since I have two fans, it seems safest to use two modules vs. "hoping" one module will be able to handle the current draw of two fans.

I know that probably sounds like overkill but hey, I'm an engineer. It's in my blood.

Of course, my plan presumes that I can send the PWM signal from the E67 ECM to both fan modules.

Do you suppose that will be a problem?
Would you happen to know what the frequency and voltage amplitude of the PWM signal from the E67 ECM is?

Oddly enough, the toughest part of my plan appears to be sourcing the connectors that plug into the GM Fan control module. Best
I can tell, the only way you can buy those connectors from GM is as part of an entire C6 fan assembly whch lists for over $400!

If anyone knows where those connectors can be purchased separately I would appreciate them giving me a hint or clue.

I may have to connect wires to the module tabs and then pot the end of the module, effectively converting it to a pigtail version.

Thanks again Dave.

[parsonsj]

I'm glad I started reading this thread! Very very interesting, and far superior to what I did on my last project which was to use a relay to override and run the fans with pressure monitoring via a trinary switch.

Just to clarify (for me, anyway :) ) : the E67 in the LSA crate motor offering from GM (pn 19259293) can monitor the A/C line pressure and turn on the fans? Does it do that with PWM support (just running the fan enough to keep the high side pressure to certain number)? Or does it do that by running the fans full speed until the high side pressure drops below a threshold?

And all the while, it's keeping track of the coolant temp and running the fans appropriately for that too?

Sweet!

[Denvervet]

If you have crimpers...should be able to just buy metripak or weatherpak connector and make your own harness. Waytek is one source for such items.

[mikels]

My thinking is that GM validated those modules for the current draw of just one C6 Corvette fan. Since I have two fans, it seems safest to use two modules vs. "hoping" one module will be able to handle the current draw of two fans.

No need for 2 fan control modules unless current demands from dual fans exceed capaicty for single module. I've run dual Spal fans from production Corvette fan module without issue (I will say that I have yet to ever use an aftermarket fan that comes close to performance of the factory designed and developed fans).

PWM output from ECM has to match what fan module is looking for. If you are using fan module from Corvette and match the calibrations in controller to a Corvette, will all work fine. 128 Hz is what Corvette fan controller is looking for.


Just to clarify (for me, anyway :) ) : the E67 in the LSA crate motor offering from GM (pn 19259293) can monitor the A/C line pressure and turn on the fans? Does it do that with PWM support (just running the fan enough to keep the high side pressure to certain number)? Or does it do that by running the fans full speed until the high side pressure drops below a threshold?

And all the while, it's keeping track of the coolant temp and running the fans appropriately for that too?

Sweet!


Yes - AC pressure calibration just drives fan high enough to keep pressure within boundries set in cal. It's a table relating AC pressure in kPa to fan output %.

Fan duty cycle is controlled by 5 inputs: ECT (engine coolant temp), AC pressure, IAT (intake air temp), EOT (engine oil temo), TOT (trans oil temp). Highest request wins (in other words if AC pressure is requesting 50% DC and ECT is only 30%, 50% is what is commanded).

Most installations do not monitor oil temp (decrete input into ECM) and trans oil temp is either from descrete input of trans temp into ECM, or over CAN bus from TCM (transmission control module).

If you use PCS (Powertrain Control Systems) trans controller for automatic trans, trans oil temp (TOT) is broadcast over CAN messages and will work with crate engine controller kit to drive fan output.

Typically, ECT and AC will be primary drivers for fan DC - unless you have an unbalanced system from cooling perspective.

Dave

[Lous69]

I'm glad I started reading this thread! Very very interesting, and far superior to what I did on my last project which was to use a relay to override and run the fans with pressure monitoring via a trinary switch.

Just to clarify (for me, anyway :) ) : the E67 in the LSA crate motor offering from GM (pn 19259293) can monitor the A/C line pressure and turn on the fans? Does it do that with PWM support (just running the fan enough to keep the high side pressure to certain number)? Or does it do that by running the fans full speed until the high side pressure drops below a threshold?

And all the while, it's keeping track of the coolant temp and running the fans appropriately for that too?

Sweet!

We are still trying to figure out how to handle integrating the Vintage A/C system cooling fan requirements into our overall cooling strategy. This is like that Whack-a-Mole game. Every time you think you have a handle on how to make everything place nice together something else pops up.

Oh well, that's what makes it fun right????

First let me remind you that today I am just a newbie trying to figure this all out for the first time. Dave, who thankfully has chimed in on this thread, has numerous successful installs under his belt including Stielow's latest cars so he is MUCH more credible than me. Bottom line, don't follow my lead until you see the final results. I will keep you posted as we learn.

Kevin and Trevor of V8TV are keeping me honest and out of trouble too.

Getting back to your questions about how the ECM requests cooling fan speeds and how we hope to integrate the Vintage Air system into our cooling fan strategy:

Here is what I have been able to find regarding how GM sets up the cooling strategy in the ECM for PWM control of cooling fans:

Engine coolant temp. strategy:
Cooling fan starts at approx. 204 Deg. F (at 10% duty cycle) and steadily increases with temp up to a max of 90% duty cycle (which they consider full on or high speed) at 235 Deg. F and higher.

A/C Pressure strategy:
Cooling fan starts when A/C pressure is approx. 160 psi and reaches high speed at 360 psi.

Engine Oil temp strategy:
Oil temps above approx. 302 Deg. F will trigger high speed fan on.

Transmission Oil temp strategy:
Trans oil temps above 270 Deg. F will trigger high speed fan on.

Vehicle shut off strategy:
If engine coolant temp at key off is greater than 235 Deg. F or the A/C pressure is greater than 249 psi, the cooling fan duty cycle is set to 50%. If the coolant temp drops below 230 Deg. F, and the A/C pressure drops below 241 psi, the fan will shut off. Otherwise, the fan will automatically shut off after 2 minutes regardless of temperatures.

When multiple cooling fan requests are received the ECM uses the highest cooling fan speed of all requests.

Now, according to Vintage Air,

We need to find out if the fan algorithms can be tuned to request full speed fans at 260 PSI instead of the GM setting of 360 PSI because if pressure in the Vintage Air system is allowed to go much higher than 275 psi, the ability of the system to absorb heat is greatly reduced.

Absent of that, they would be concerned that we will not have efficient cooling because the GM A/C strategy is designed for a fixed orifice tube expansion with a variable displacement compressor, as opposed to the thermostatic expansion valve system Vintage Air employs.

The Vintage air system does have an on/off cooling fan control. It calls for fans on at 254 psi and has a safety shutoff for the system at 406 psi in case there is a fan failure or a blockage develops in the system.

This means we need to check into a few things as follows:

1. We need to make sure that we can turn off the ECM algorithms for any temperature sensors we might not use without causing the ECM to get confused or angry with us. For instance, we do not presently plan to sense the trans. temp or the oil temp through the ECM even if those algorithms reside in our version of the E67 ECM. We only want to "turn on" the coolant and the A/C pressure algorithms that we believe/hope to be resident in the LSA crate motor E67 controller but "turned off".

2. We need to make sure we can reset or tune the A/C pressure settings to emulate the way the Vintage A/C system controls cooling fans.

3. We need to verify that we install the GM A/C pressure sensor in the correct location within the refrigeration circuit.

4. We need to think the whole strategy through again to see what we might be missing.

Of course, we may still need to fall back to a more conventional cooling fan strategy if this all proves undoable for some reason. It's always good to have a Plan B.

[parsonsj]

Lou, all this stuff is amazingly topical to me as well. I've got a good buddy (Jeff Tate, one of my fellow mods over at PT.com) who works the parts counter at a Chevy dealership near Atlanta. He can help source all the parts needed here: PWM module, fan, connectors, A/C sensor and connector, plus the pins needed to add the wires to the ECM connectors.

I follow the need to disable transmission oil and maybe engine oil temps from the algorithm, plus change the parameters from 360 psi to 260 psi on the pressure side of the refrigerant circuit. I'm now beginning to wonder about fan dimensions, and how it will fit in a 69 Camaro body. I'm not sure sure the difference between the V/A compressor and the GM matters that much... as long as the fans generate enough cooling to keep the high side pressure below 300ish psi.

Of a greater concern is that the ECM has no way to turn off the compressor. That's a function of the trinary switch -- which only passes on the compressor on request as long as the high side pressure is under 260 psi.

So another question would be: can the E67 be made to take in the compressor request from the dash switch, and only signal the compressor clutch to engage if the pressures are safe? And to withdraw that request if the pressures exceed a programmable threshold (say 325 psi)?

[mikels]

Of a greater concern is that the ECM has no way to turn off the compressor. That's a function of the trinary switch -- which only passes on the compressor on request as long as the high side pressure is under 260 psi.

So another question would be: can the E67 be made to take in the compressor request from the dash switch, and only signal the compressor clutch to engage if the pressures are safe? And to withdraw that request if the pressures exceed a programmable threshold (say 325 psi)?

E67 can and does control compressor - in factory installations. Issue is it gets AC request from HVAC module over CAN bus. And I don't see anyone that is going to solve that puzzle anytime soon.

Best solution is to allow Vintage Air (or whatever) unit control compressor, and ECM control fans. Again, you can set fan DC based on AC pressure (which is why you need to install sensor in AC line and wire to ECM).

[parsonsj]

E67 can and does control compressor - in factory installations. Issue is it gets AC request from HVAC module over CAN bus. And I don't see anyone that is going to solve that puzzle anytime soon.

Best solution is to allow Vintage Air (or whatever) unit control compressor, and ECM control fans. Again, you can set fan DC based on AC pressure (which is why you need to install sensor in AC line and wire to ECM).Thanks again for all the insight and answers. I love this stuff!

If the V/A (or ISIS) controller manages the compressor, then there must be a sensor to know when to turn off the compressor when liquid side pressure gets too high. So we're back to a trinary switch (maybe just a binary switch?) to do that -- negating one of the key advantages of having the ECM manage the fan. I suppose it's still better for the ECM to manage the fan (does it soft-start the fan to reduce inrush?), but this hybrid system will have two pressure sensors that aren't integrated.

I'm going to talk to ISIS about their V/A controller and whether or not it can be modified to support the CAN-bus protocol to be able to talk to the ECM. I'm sure Jay's question will be: what is the CAN-bus sequence to tell the ECM to enable the A/C clutch?

Edit: I realize that just the CAN-bus electrical connection isn't enough. GM has a proprietary protocol that would have to be reverse-engineered to get this to work. I also asked ISIS about their ability to read CTS and A/C sensor data and manage the fans. I'll report back.

[samckitt]

Tried to read all of this, not all of it sunk in & now my head hurts. In a nutshell, can I use a vette fan & PWM module & hook it up to my GMPP LS3 controller kit with extra harness & retune the ECM to work with the PWM fan instead of just on/off?

[mikels]

Tried to read all of this, not all of it sunk in & now my head hurts. In a nutshell, can I use a vette fan & PWM module & hook it up to my GMPP LS3 controller kit with extra harness & retune the ECM to work with the PWM fan instead of just on/off?

Simple answer - yes

[Lous69]

Dave,

When my GM PWM fan modules arrive I am going to play with them on the test bench to learn more about how they work and respond to various input signals.

Thanks to you, I know I need to provide them with a 128 Hz PWM signal which will be no problem.

I can measure the impedence of the module when it arrives but I don't know how to determine what voltage range of PWM signal it will be looking for

Do you happen to know what voltage the module is looking for in the input signal it receives from the E67 ECM?

Thank you so much for your knowledge. You are the Man!

[mikels]

Do you happen to know what voltage the module is looking for in the input signal it receives from the E67 ECM?

ECM signal is switching to ground - not voltage.

Most output functions of ECM are that way: injectors, coils, etc. Ground signal is switched with power supplied directly to device.

[parsonsj]

Most output functions of ECM are that way: injectors, coils, etc. Ground signal is switched with power supplied directly to device.One notable exception: fuel pump. That's a 12V signal.

[CarlC]

DC Controls has a stand-alone PWM that can handle 85A continious. I had to change to an FK55 for the MarkVIII fan since the initial turn-on current was melting the ends of the connector body.

http://www.dccontrol.com/fk85.pdf

I'm learning a ton here. Thanks for the great discussion and info sharing.

[clill]

Now imagine sitting in a bar listening to a conversation between Mikels and Stielow. :willy: :bang: :willy:

[dontlifttoshift]

That would be the coolest bar I would have ever been in......

[Lous69]

Now imagine sitting in a bar listening to a conversation between Mikels and Stielow. :willy: :bang: :willy:

We Engineers think this stuff is intoxicating...we don't need no stinkin bars...

Well OK, in Rolla we did need our bars because there were no women.

I guess we are a pretty sad lot

[parsonsj]

We Engineers think this stuff is intoxicating...we don't need no stinkin bars...Hell, I think this was the highlight of my week!

[dontlifttoshift]

If I missed it it, I apologize. But what compressor are you running? The factory compressor is controlled by the ecm not just at the clutch but it varies the pitch on the vanes right? I didn't think that variable compressor is compatible with the VA unit?

If you are running a sanden compressor then why not leave the ecm out of the equation for the ac? You could run a 5 volt ref to one side of the trinary and from there to the ecm to tell it that ac is on. It would only make when the specified pressure is reached and you could set it to run at, say 40% on the pwm when the AC calls for it.

It really doesn't take that much fan to cool off the condenser. When we charge systems here, the fan only cycles for 8-10 seconds at a time and doesn't cycle again for at least another 90 seconds. You can watch the high side pressure drop quickly, you would swear it had a leak. So in my mind it would be simpler to do it that way and not have to worry about the oem pressure sensor.

[parsonsj]

In my case, it's a Sanden. I was looking for a solution that doesn't cycle the fan at max speed for 10-15s every 90s... but would run a lower fan speed for longer times. I don't know of any aftermarket fan controller that supports that, so I thought having the ECM do it would be a nice integrated feature.

[Lous69]

In my case, it's a Sanden. I was looking for a solution that doesn't cycle the fan at max speed for 10-15s every 90s... but would run a lower fan speed for longer times. I don't know of any aftermarket fan controller that supports that, so I thought having the ECM do it would be a nice integrated feature.

That is our current thinking too. We are also using the Sanden compressor.
We plan to let the Vintage Air system control the compressor as it is designed and use the ECM control to the fans since it looks like that can work.

[dontlifttoshift]

So you are trying to eliminate the on/off cycle. If the fan soft starts and runs at half speed for the AC I think it would work. This is really only critical during warm up, I think, once up to temp wouldn't normal fan cycling move enough air to keep the trinary switch out of the loop?

[mikels]

In my case, it's a Sanden. I was looking for a solution that doesn't cycle the fan at max speed for 10-15s every 90s... but would run a lower fan speed for longer times. I don't know of any aftermarket fan controller that supports that, so I thought having the ECM do it would be a nice integrated feature.

That's exactly how crate engine controller will work with the pressure sensor in AC system and PWM fan control. Will modulate fan output only enough to control pressure. This is how Jackass, Red Devil, Mayhem and Camaro XV are set up.

I hate listening to a car and all you hear is the fan screaming.

Now imagine sitting in a bar listening to a conversation between Mikels and Stielow. :willy: :bang: :willy:

Ok Charlie - next time we'll use small words and speak slowly (or buy you enough margarita's you won't care). I get this same abuse from my wife and kids - now you too?

Well OK, in Rolla we did need our bars because there were no women.

I don't know what your talking about - there were tons of women in Rolla, just not many of them.

[parsonsj]

That's exactly how crate engine controller will work with the pressure sensor in AC system and PWM fan control. Will modulate fan output only enough to control pressure. This is how Jackass, Red Devil, Mayhem and Camaro XV are set up.

I hate listening to a car and all you hear is the fan screaming. Exactly! We've got an analog input (ECT goes from 180 to 181, or refrigerant goes from 175 to 176), but a binary response: the fan goes from 0 to full speed.

How about this question: do Jackass, Red Devil, Mayhem, and XV use a trinary (or binary) switch? Let the ECM manage the fan, but the fail-safe requirement when the refrigerant gets dangerously high is still allocated to the binary/trinary switch?

[clill]

I'm from the age: If it has spark and fuel it should run.

[Lous69]

I'm from the age: If it has spark and fuel it should run.

I thought we were about the same age....

This discussion "sparked" my interest, "fueled" my knowledge and I'm so full of "....." I gotta run.

[mikels]

How about this question: do Jackass, Red Devil, Mayhem, and XV use a trinary (or binary) switch? Let the ECM manage the fan, but the fail-safe requirement when the refrigerant gets dangerously high is still allocated to the binary/trinary switch?

Yes - compressor controlled by Vintage Air (including bi/trinary switch), with PWM fan controlled by ECM.

Typically fan request for AC pressure never more than 30-40% (and only that high on very high demand AC environment). At that level, can barely hear fan running.

At full tilt (90% DC for most PWM fan controllers), an 850W fan tends to make a little noise - but only see that level during track use due to ECT, IAT or oil temp. I'm ok with fan making some noise then - especially if controlling temps.

[parsonsj]

Excellent. I think I have a plan then. Great stuff, great discussion.

thanks!

[rusty63ss]

Very interesting read!

Would this type of setup work on my C5 LS1, MarkVII, VA in my Nova? Or is my old school PCM not capable?

Thanks guys,

Dhamen

[Lous69]

Very interesting read!

Would this type of setup work on my C5 LS1, MarkVII, VA in my Nova? Or is my old school PCM not capable?

Thanks guys,

Dhamen

No real easy answer to your question and I'm no expert by any stretch but here is what I "Think" I have learned that may offer some insights:

So far, I have found evidence of 3 GM ECM types or series that have been used in applications that used some sort of PWM control of cooling fans and/or fan clutches as follows:

E38 ECMs have been used in C6 Corvettes and use PWM control of the cooling fan using the fan control module.

E40 ECMs have been used in some Trailblazer SS applications and use PWM control of the fan clutch.

E67 ECMs have been used in C6 ZR1s and use PWM control of cooling fan using the fan control module.

There may be more. These are just the ones I have found in my research so far.

Here are pics of these three ECM types:


E38
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n563/nv8rdi/E38ECMpic_zps9ed02ff9.jpg


E40
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n563/nv8rdi/E40ECMpic_zps2d322fe2.png


E67
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n563/nv8rdi/E67ECMpic_zps1d165872.jpg

You will notice the easiest way to tell them apart is by the arrangement of connectors and fins.

I have been told the ECM itself is analgous to your desktop computer. By that, I mean within reason, each computer of the same type or series is theoretically "capable" of doing the same job as long as the right software programs are loaded into them. In other words, two computers that are made the same are only capable of running the same operating system or programs if the same software is loaded into them.

Following that logic, if one computer (or ECM) of a specific model number has the internal hardware to do a job in one application, it should be able to do it in another application provided the right software is resident inside, that software is enabled, and it is wired to the correct inputs and outputs.

So, using deductive logic, (which you should treat as suspect until you or someone who has actually done it validates or disputes it), would suggest that if your ECM is one of these types, it should be "capable" of PWM control of cooling fans because it has been used to do so in other applications.

The next challenge would be to find out if your ECM has any software inside that can be enabled to provide PWM control or if it would be possible to load that software into your ECM and then turn it on.

If all that looks possible, you would then need to figure out if you have wires in your harness for the appropriate input and output pins, whether the fan control module will work in your application, if you have the right input sensors, etc.

Like I've said earlier, first time retro-fits are like the old whack-a-mole game. Solving a problem in one area can cause another problem to pop up somewhere else in the system. It can often be an interative process with inherent tradeoffs.

Unless you are a gluten for punishment or just like the challenge of figuring things like this out yourself, getting the advice of or hiring a professional is highly recommended. That is exactly why we plan to follow Dave's trail as much as possible.

I am definitely not a professional or experienced resource. I'm just a fellow newbie trying to validate what I think I am learning as I go.

Good luck!

[rusty63ss]

Thanks for the reply. Maybe when I get further in my project I'll play with it and see what I can get done.

BTW your engineering degree is showing. :D

[parsonsj]

If the V/A (or ISIS) controller manages the compressor, then there must be a sensor to know when to turn off the compressor when liquid side pressure gets too high. So we're back to a trinary switch (maybe just a binary switch?) to do that -- negating one of the key advantages of having the ECM manage the fan. I suppose it's still better for the ECM to manage the fan (does it soft-start the fan to reduce inrush?), but this hybrid system will have two pressure sensors that aren't integrated.

I'm going to talk to ISIS about their V/A controller and whether or not it can be modified to support the CAN-bus protocol to be able to talk to the ECM. I'm sure Jay's question will be: what is the CAN-bus sequence to tell the ECM to enable the A/C clutch?

Edit: I realize that just the CAN-bus electrical connection isn't enough. GM has a proprietary protocol that would have to be reverse-engineered to get this to work. I also asked ISIS about their ability to read CTS and A/C sensor data and manage the fans. I'll report back.Here's the report back from ISIS:

We do have a J1939 interface on a version of the Mastercell but that is only to read PGNs sent to the Mastercell by other devices (We buy switch packs that communicate J1939) and does not send commands out at this point. The GM ECM would have to communicate using standard J1939 which I don't think it does and we would have figure out how to send the proper commands over the J1939 bus.So does anybody know: does the GM E67 use J1939 protocol over CANbus?

[Lous69]

Yes - compressor controlled by Vintage Air (including bi/trinary switch), with PWM fan controlled by ECM.

Typically fan request for AC pressure never more than 30-40% (and only that high on very high demand AC environment). At that level, can barely hear fan running.

At full tilt (90% DC for most PWM fan controllers), an 850W fan tends to make a little noise - but only see that level during track use due to ECT, IAT or oil temp. I'm ok with fan making some noise then - especially if controlling temps.

Dave,

We are going with the E67 controller along with at least one C6 fan control module and the C6 AC pressure switch as you outline above to supplement the Vintage Air controls as far as request for fans is concerned.. We have two questions:

1. We are wondering if we have to use a body control module to enable the AC pressure switch to provide a fan request signal to the ECM or if it can do so directly without a body control module?

2. We know you doubt we need 2 modules for our dual fans but if we end up going that way, do you suppose the ECM will care that there are two modules receiving it's PWM signal vs one?
We are doubtful that it would be an issue since the ECM is just switching to ground but thought we should ask.

Thanks again for your help!
Lou

[BBPanel]

Simple answer is, yes - you can control a PWM fan controller with GM E67 controller (or E38 or E40)....Dave
Dave, or anyone, does this apply to the earlier LS1 ECU (411) as well?

And Lous69, are you also wanting to do this so you can run the oem compressor with a VA system (of which most people say not to do because primarily there isn't any pressure control)?

Don't mean to hijack your thread but I'm sure others are wondering the same thing - could be of value for a lot of us. If its doable but a completely different situation I can start another thread. Thanks. -Bob

[Lous69]

Dave, or anyone, does this apply to the earlier LS1 ECU (411) as well?

And Lous69, are you also wanting to do this so you can run the oem compressor with a VA system (of which most people say not to do because primarily there isn't any pressure control)?

Don't mean to hijack your thread but I'm sure others are wondering the same thing - could be of value for a lot of us. If its doable but a completely different situation I can start another thread. Thanks. -Bob

No. We are using the Vintage Air Compressor.

[mikels]

We are going with the E67 controller along with at least one C6 fan control module and the C6 AC pressure switch as you outline above to supplement the Vintage Air controls as far as request for fans is concerned.. We have two questions:

1. We are wondering if we have to use a body control module to enable the AC pressure switch to provide a fan request signal to the ECM or if it can do so directly without a body control module?

2. We know you doubt we need 2 modules for our dual fans but if we end up going that way, do you suppose the ECM will care that there are two modules receiving it's PWM signal vs one?
We are doubtful that it would be an issue since the ECM is just switching to ground but thought we should ask.

Thanks again for your help!
Lou

1 -Does not need BCM input in addition to AC pressure. Between all inputs for fan DC request, largest wins so just need to have AC pressure switch and cals populated for fan % vs. AC pressure.

2 -I've never tried running 2 PWM modules from the single output driver, so can't really say if it'll work or not.


Dave, or anyone, does this apply to the earlier LS1 ECU (411) as well?. -Bob

All LS1 controllers I've worked with (P01, P59) are set for descrete fan drivers, not PWM. Can always set up to run parallel/series for 2 speed operation.

It's been so long since I've worked with one of those (outside a car it came in) I'd have to look to see if can run AC pressure switch in to control fan output.

[cocoabill]

Has anyone got a PWM fan module to work? I have an LS2 motor from an 05 vette that I would like to wire with PWM fan control. I have the correct module for the E40 ECM but can not find the required pigtail or a wiring diagram that matches the module.

There are 4 main vertical pins on the module 1-4 labeled M-, 31, 30, and M+ there are 3 horizontal pins 5-7 that are not really labeled but may be PWM input.
I have attached link to an image of module.

Anybody know how this is wired and the part number for the connector?

Thanks for your help.
Bill

http://www.astautomation.com/images/Fan-Module.jpg

[cocoabill]

Getting closer at least I know what it looks like

http://www.astautomation.com/images/Connector.jpg

[mikels]

There are 4 main vertical pins on the module 1-4 labeled M-, 31, 30, and M+ there are 3 horizontal pins 5-7 that are not really labeled but may be PWM input.

M- = Ground to fan motor
M+ = Power to fan motor
30 = Battery power (fused)
31 = Ground
Pin 6 = PWM input (in your case - E40 controller - J1-36)

Connector is sold as part of fan harness, which is part of cooling fan assembly - Part # 15819952 (AC Delco 15-80657). I found a few connectors separate years ago, but have since used them all.

[cocoabill]

Thank you very much, now for the connector hunt.

[samckitt]

Other end of the connector looks like this;
http://images2.carpartsdiscount.com/auto/archive/pictures/262790/1000/2/P/62F2A4D/chevy_corvette_2008_radiator_cooling_fan_oem_15819 952.jpg

I found it on the web, I dont have one. Looking though.

[cocoabill]

Thanks let me know, I found a motor with one on eBay, but kind of hate to buy a motor just to get the connector.

Bill

[samckitt]

Thanks let me know, I found a motor with one on eBay, but kind of hate to buy a motor just to get the connector.

Bill

I didn't have any luck finding a new connector.

[cocoabill]

Thanks for looking, I bought the fan motor with connector on eBay, figured having a spare fan motor could not hurt.

[samckitt]

When you get it, see if it has any kind of PN on it.

[71403]

Have one here, this is all that's on it:

48769 4
PA6 GF15
PA6GF30

PA6 likely a reference to the connector material.

Aftermarket (crash part) mfg's are making replacement fan assemblies that come with the connector so someone has to be making it

[Lous69]

I have figured out that there are many Mercedes Benz cars with similar PWM modules that appear to use the same connectors. That makes the search for used connectors a little easier but Mercedes also does not sell new connectors separately.

According to some threads on the Corvette forums there have been connector failures. Not surprising since they have to carry high amperage and are just spade terminal connections.

Since the end of the PWM module is conducive to potting, we are considering just soldering wires directly to the pins for the best conductivity and then potting with an electrical grade potting material.

[Lous69]

This picture shows where we decided to mount the Corvette PWM modules.

Only one module shown in these pictures.

A second module will be mounted on the outboard side of the same bracket.

The stray wires are prepared and ready to be plugged into the second module.

http://v8tvshow.com/1969_Camaro_LC/slides/69Camaro_Lou_03.22.13_112.JPG

http://v8tvshow.com/1969_Camaro_LC/slides/69Camaro_Lou_03.22.13_017.JPG

[Lous69]

These forums have allowed us to speed up so much of our learning that I feel compelled to "give back" in order to help others the same way.

Dave Mikels, (Mikels Performance Engineering) works closely with Brian Thomson (Thomson Automotive Engines) to create serious but dependable Horsepower for the likes of Mark Stielow (Red Devil, Mayhem, Camaro XV).

That is impressive but what I find most admirable is that Dave and Brian have not let their success go to their heads.

What I mean by that is I was impressed when I called their business and they answered the phone personally.

They each put a high priority on first learning what I wanted in my application vs. just rattling off what they have to sell off their shelf.

They did not make me feel stupid when I asked them the same questions I know they have answered a thousand times before.

Unfortunately, similar businesses that have enjoyed as much success as Dave and Brian have evolved into a take it or leave it approach to customers.

Those of you who have been following this thread have seen first hand how willing Dave is to help people figure things out and benefit from his experience.

He is the obvious choice for me. I spend my hard earned money carefully. I'm actually proud to be one of his new customers.

Thanks to Dave's knowledge, we are getting a lot more than just a performance tune matched to select Thomson engine upgrades.

We're also getting seamless integration of PWM fan control, Reverse Lockout without a need for a separate switch and Vintage Air A/C.

In case it helps your own builds, here is the Lou's Change set up and what Dave is doing for us right now:

ENGINE:
We are starting with a brand new LSA crate motor
We swapped out the CTS-V Intercooler top hat with a new ZL1 top hat. (I'm pretty sure that was an idea Brian suggested to me when he talked to me early on in the build. I had no idea they could be swapped out so easily)

ENGINE MODS:
Supercharger Pulley change (2.56:1 to 3:1)
Cam Swap (Thomson Spec.)
Valve springs (Thomson Spec.)
Injectors (Thomson Automotive Spec.)

ENGINE CONTROLLER:
We are using the GM Performance Parts E67 LSA controller that came with our LSA crate engine.

FUEL SYSTEM:
We have the full Vaporworx system installed in our DSE tank complete with the fuel pump and controller they provide (rated for up to 1000 HP).
We will use Dave's advised 450kPa fuel pressure

ENGINE COOLING:
We have a C&R cooling module along with the 2 fans they provided (rated for up to 1000 HP)
We have installed 2 brand new PWM fan control modules like those used in the C6 Corvette.

INTERCOOLING:
We are running a Mazierre 55 GPM intercooler pump
We are using the same intercooler heat exchanger used in the GT500 complete with fans.

AIR CONDITIONING:
We are using the Vintage Air Generation 4 A/C system
We are using a Sandene Compressor
We have installed a GM A/C pressure switch
We are still using the Vintage Air Trinary switch to the control compressor

TRANSMISSION:
Brand new T56 Magnum
We have a Vehicle Speed Sensor installed and connected to the VSS lead that was included in the GMPP engine harness as purchased.

REAR END:
Ford 9 inch with 3.7 gear ratio

HERE IS WHAT Dave is doing for us:

Installing pin out and a labeled wire for the PWM control module.
Installing pin out and a labeled wire for the GM A/C pressure sensor.
Installing pin out and a labeled wire for reverse lock out.

CAL:
Capture original factory Cal

Enable and program PWM fan control:
- PWM vs. Discreet
- 128 Hz PWM frequency
- 204 degrees engine coolant = 10% duty cycle
- 235 degrees engine coolant = 90% duty cycle

Program fan control parameters for “after run”:
- If engine coolant temp. greater than 235 degrees or A/C pressure greater than 260 psi at key off = 50% duty cycle until engine coolant drops below 230 degrees AND A/C pressure drops below 241 psi.
- Otherwise, fans shut off after 2 minutes regardless of temperatures.

Enable Vehicle Speed Sensor control of reverse lock out.

Reprogram table for AC pressure control of fans. In order to use Vintage Air/ Sandene compressor, need to change table as follows:
- Fans all in at 90% duty cycle at 260 psi as measured by GM A/C pressure sensor.

LSA Engine Performance tune per modifications selected
- Supercharger Pulley change (2.56:1 to 3:1)
- Cam Swap
- Valve springs
- Injectors

I'm suspicious Dave and Brian will have some more suggestions before we're done. I'll post what we learn as we go and report back to validate how it all worked.

[COYBILT]

This thread is priceless and these are some of the issues we have all been faced with.

[snappytravis]

Just curious what is going on with the pwm controllers on this car? Did you ever find the connectors, Is it working?

[Lous69]

The car is in body and paint right now. As soon as it is out we will begin assembly and report how it all worked.

We sent the ECM to Mikels Performance and he did the tune and all the modifications mentioned above. Since he has done the same things for Stielow's last few cars we do not expect any big surprises, but we'll close the loop in this thread relative to how the fan controls work.

[parsonsj]

Love the updates and summary post. Thanks very much for that.

HERE IS WHAT Dave is doing for us:

Installing pin out and a labeled wire for the PWM control module.
Installing pin out and a labeled wire for the GM A/C pressure sensor.
Installing pin out and a labeled wire for reverse lock out.
Just tonight I pulled my GMPP LS9 harness apart. I removed the bulkhead portion of the harness, and moved the wires over to the pedal, OBDII connector, etc. portion of the harness to go with all the other wires coming inside the car. I also removed the rear O2 sensor wires -- the GM instructions tell you simply that they are unused. Well, now they are coiled neatly on my workbench. And don't get me started on the coil/injector connectors. They are backwards, and GM includes a little whoop-di-do to fix it.

Sorry, I forgot where I was going.

Here's my question: can Dave or Mark or somebody post the pinouts for the ECM (E67) so I can add a
engine oil temp sensor, and
GM A/C pressure sensor, and
2nd fan control wire.


Thanks!!

[parsonsj]

One more question: where did you source the C6 PWM controller? Did you post that pinout? Sorry if I missed that...

[parsonsj]

More information about my harness: both high speed (pin 54/connector 1) and low speed (pin 49/connector 3) fan controls are connected to the same single fan relay.

The A/C sensor is not connected (pin 57/connector 3, I believe). I can't find any information about engine oil temp.

[parsonsj]

The A/C pressure sensor is wired in at pins J3-21 (reference ground), J3-37 (reference 5V), and J3-57 (signal). The PWM control wire is J3-64.

There is no EOT sensor wired directly to the ECM, so that part of the equation is out. Have to rely on ECT for that, which is obviously just fine, especially if you use the C&R Racing water to oil cooler. Using the C6 PWM, the cooling fan PWM control wire from the ECM (J3-64) goes to connector 6.

Get all that wired correctly and the rest is just tuning via HP Tuners (which Dave told us about way back at the beginning of the thread).

Did we ever figure out if the one fan speed wire could drive two PWM controllers?

Thanks guys!

ps. Many thanks to Scot McKittrick for getting me the E67 pinout. Using that, my 07 Z06 Helms books and an online LS4 book is how worked all that out.

[parsonsj]

Anyway, in this ongoing thread where I'm talking with myself :) , I'm wondering if anybody knows how the control wire works from the ECM. I'm assuming that it varies voltage, but I don't know that.

If it does vary voltage, what's the range and which direction does it go? Say if the voltage varies from 1V to 11V is 1V 100% fan, and 11V 10% fan? Or is it the other way around?

[mikels]

Here's my question: can Dave or Mark or somebody post the pinouts for the ECM (E67) so I can add a
engine oil temp sensor, and
GM A/C pressure sensor, and
2nd fan control wire.


Thanks!!

More information about my harness: both high speed (pin 54/connector 1) and low speed (pin 49/connector 3) fan controls are connected to the same single fan relay.

The A/C sensor is not connected (pin 57/connector 3, I believe). I can't find any information about engine oil temp.

LSA and LS9 engines utilize the I/O channel that is sometimes used for oil temperature for IAT2 (post intercooler Intake Air Temp). There are no additional I/O channels to take in engine oil temp on the supercharged engines.

A/C pressure sensor wiring is correct - and can be adjusted to fan driver output based on A/C head pressure. Remeber - highest requested fan driver percentage wins.

E67 controller has 3 fan output drivers - however, when used with PWM fan control, only one of those outputs is utilized. It provides a PWM output at frequency specific to the fan driver controller. I've not measured voltage based on PWM % output to determine what way the voltage goes based on desired output.

When fan drivers are used as discrete outputs, they can be used to close relays that can then be wired in parallel, series or parallel series combination to drive mutliple fans at low and high settings.

I'm a huge fan of PWM cooling fan control as I HATE listening to high speed fan during anything other than track situations that demand it. Nothing worse than pulling up and having the sweet rumble of an engine masked by a fan screaming away.

[samckitt]

Can all of this be programmed into the GM Performance Parts LS2 controller?

[mikels]

Can all of this be programmed into the GM Performance Parts LS2 controller?

Yes - All GMPP crate engine controllers are E67's and can be programmed for fan control in same manner.

[CFster]

Yes - All GMPP crate engine controllers are E67's and can be programmed for fan control in same manner.

You're forgetting E37, E38 and E40 ecus.

[parsonsj]

E67 controller has 3 fan output drivers - however, when used with PWM fan control, only one of those outputs is utilized. It provides a PWM output at frequency specific to the fan driver controller. I've not measured voltage based on PWM % output to determine what way the voltage goes based on desired output.

When fan drivers are used as discrete outputs, they can be used to close relays that can then be wired in parallel, series or parallel series combination to drive mutliple fans at low and high settings.

I'm a huge fan of PWM cooling fan control as I HATE listening to high speed fan during anything other than track situations that demand it. Nothing worse than pulling up and having the sweet rumble of an engine masked by a fan screaming away.Me too on PWM control.

So... net net: I need to use a C6 fan controller since it is definitely compatible with the E67. For dual fans, I need to use two controllers, and hope that the E67 can drive two PWM controllers from the same wire.

[mikels]

Me too on PWM control.

So... net net: I need to use a C6 fan controller since it is definitely compatible with the E67. For dual fans, I need to use two controllers, and hope that the E67 can drive two PWM controllers from the same wire.

I've run 2 fans with single PWM C6 fan controller (have to look at total power demands and keep in limits of fan controller) and know that works.

Lou is trying dual PWM modules controlled by single PWM output from ECM -will know soon the success of that route.

[parsonsj]

I've run 2 fans with single PWM C6 fan controller (have to look at total power demands and keep in limits of fan controller) and know that works.

Lou is trying dual PWM modules controlled by single PWM output from ECM -will know soon the success of that route.OK, that's good to know. I'm using the C&R Racing setup with their dual Spal 11" fans.

Is that the fan setup you know works?

[mikels]

OK, that's good to know. I'm using the C&R Racing setup with their dual Spal 11" fans.

Is that the fan setup you know works?

Corvette fan is 400W - so at 12.5 V, that's 32 A. So long as your 2 Spal fans are below that current level, should work fine.

[samckitt]

Yes - All GMPP crate engine controllers are E67's and can be programmed for fan control in same manner.

Anyone have a PN & source for the connector terminals?

[parsonsj]

A quick check of the dual 11" Spal fans shows current draw less than 32A.

Looks like I'm golden!

Thanks all!

Anyone have a PN & source for the connector terminals?x2, and looking for cavity plugs too. I've heard reference to "micro 64 connectors".

[parsonsj]

I have found this site.

http://www.obd2allinone.com/sc/details.asp?item=m5j3

Looks like you can pick up the connectors there. 10 / $2.95.

[samckitt]

Forgot I had a document with some information in it. Like GM PNs for the pins, don't know if it will help finding them or not.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/e67_pins2.jpg

[Lous69]

Here is where I bought my PWM modules:

http://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-15-80803-Control-Module-Kit/dp/B000EQP2AS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376625268&sr=8-1&keywords=ACDelco+15-80803+Control+Module+Kit

You can't open them without damaging them but I was curious to know how the insides of the Corvette version compared to some pics of similar MB units I saw on the net. Here is what the Corvette version looks like inside. They are different than the MB units that look the same on the outside. The MB units do look like they use the same connector as the Corvette units but they will not sell them separately either. I gave up on finding a connector. We are attaching the wires individually with appropriately size female spade connectors.


http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n563/nv8rdi/ZL1%20Hood%20Pictures/Final%20Assembly/Xrayoffanmodule_zpsf9e7bbcb.png

[parsonsj]

Thanks Lou! I just ordered the last one in stock.

[samckitt]

I remember trying to find this connector before, seems like it has 4 big terminals & 1 small one, or is there small ones? Is it sealed like a weatherpak connector?

Anyone know the GM part number of the PWM module? Maybe I can have some of my old Delphi co workers track down a connector.

[parsonsj]

The AC-Delco pn is 15-80803 if that means anything.

[parsonsj]

I talked with a local tech today who does a lot of late model upgrades. He said that on C6s they routinely swap to dual Spal fans and get another fan controller and split the signal line from the ECM with great results.

So it seems a single controller with dual fans and dual controllers splitting the signal both work fine.

[samckitt]

I have found this site.

http://www.obd2allinone.com/sc/details.asp?item=m5j3

Looks like you can pick up the connectors there. 10 / $2.95.


Here is another site to get the terminals from:

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ConnectorDetails.aspx?ItemId=314

Downside is you have to have a $25 minimum order.

[JMitch19]

Here is another site to get the terminals from:

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ConnectorDetails.aspx?ItemId=314

Downside is you have to have a $25 minimum order.



mouser.com also has the ecm terminals. A lot of sites call them Delphi connectors but they are really molex. The molex pn is 33467-0005 minimum quantity 1.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/33467-0005/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduiiP7M%252bl2AtRa0IKNwIGk4jTgQDO3tT BTM%3d

[parsonsj]

Excellent! Can you find the cavity plugs? I just spent 5 minutes on Mouser without any luck...

[JMitch19]

Excellent! Can you find the cavity plugs? I just spent 5 minutes on Mouser without any luck...

Most of the the work that I have done has been will GM's E38 ecm. Below are the two connectors for the E38. They don't seem to list a cavity plug at all. I have completely stripped a few factory GM harnesses any I've never seen a cavity plug in a factory setup either. There is a build in seal in the connector that seals around the wire when you insert it. The wire openings in this seal are very small. You could just cut up some scrap 20/22 gauge wire and insert it in the unused spots.

http://www.molex.com/molex/products/datasheet.jsp?part=active/0345660103_CRIMP_HOUSINGS.xml

http://www.molex.com/molex/products/datasheet.jsp?part=active/0345660803_CRIMP_HOUSINGS.xml#partdetail

[parsonsj]

No, there's a cavity plug in the harness. They look like this:

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/images/plug_mx123.jpg

[JMitch19]

No, there's a cavity plug in the harness. They look like this:

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/images/plug_mx123.jpg

Looks like I just needed to work a little harder... http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/34586-0001/?qs=%2fha2pyFadugO%252bKqQD9QRMQx0Zbnl5j6%252byzfe HpdTfhS4bosgff%2fQDg%3d%3d

I have a completely stock GM L92 harness sitting right next to me which has no factory cavity plugs. It's good to know these are available.

[parsonsj]

Awesomeness! Thanks very much. I'll ordering up some tonight.

[samckitt]

Pretty sure this is one of the connectors, but I think it is the one that goes to the fan, not the fan module itself.

http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?products_id=1003&osCsid=bf52686231d17dce042fb0a1b1b04209

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ConnectorDetails.aspx?ItemId=915

[JMitch19]

Pretty sure this is one of the connectors, but I think it is the one that goes to the fan, not the fan module itself.

http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?products_id=1003&osCsid=bf52686231d17dce042fb0a1b1b04209

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ConnectorDetails.aspx?ItemId=915


You are correct. I can't find the connector that plugs into the module to save my life. I'm thinking I'll go the terminals plus electrical potting compound route.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Delphi-Connection-Systems/12124685/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs7eK6h2EBtKtZWmdIJZ52n1I7u45w%2fCKk% 3d

[snappytravis]

You are correct. I can't find the connector that plugs into the module to save my life. I'm thinking I'll go the terminals plus electrical potting compound route.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Delphi-Connection-Systems/12124685/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs7eK6h2EBtKtZWmdIJZ52n1I7u45w%2fCKk% 3d

lol, I have been looking for the connector the plugs into fan module also, I google the module manufacturer part number and tried everything. I use to work at gm dealer I may just go up there and see if it list anything in the parts breakdown for it. They make a manual switch that looks like may use it, it has on off and low and high wires in between fans and controller.

[Lous69]

My friendly Chevrolet parts guy said he can not get a separate connector for the module.

It's weird. You just know there is a factory somewhere with bins full of those suckers. Probably even a few lying around on the floor to be swept up and thrown away......but where is that factory???

We decided against the electrical potting on mine. The reason is that it would not allow service to any of the spade connectors down the road should one of them ever get loose or overheat. There is also the possibility the the potting could wick into the connectors and reduce the physical connection surface area.

We used spade connectors. Travis positioned my modules out of harms way relative to rain and splash. We may fill the void around the wires by with a closed cell foam material that can easily be removed.

I suppose one could 3D print an outer sleeve that accepts the o-ring and then pot the spade connectors into that sleeve.... I'll try the foam first.

[parsonsj]

I've got a salvage yard scouring the country for the whole harness, but damaged in some way not related to the controller connection. My plan is to integrate the other end of the wires into a GT280 connector, or maybe a Metri-Pack 480.

We'll see if I come up with something.

[JMitch19]

This morning I decided to disassemble the stock L92 connector to see why GM didn't use any cavity plugs. When I removed the bottom TPA(ecm side) you see no evidence of any cavity plugs. Once I removed the top TPA I could see that GM has the cavity plugs molded into the TPA. I also noticed that the GM connector parts numbers are difference from the 73 and 80 pin connectors that are commonly used in the aftermarket.

Here is a pic of the top TPA.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr65/jrmitch19/IMG_20130820_104916_264_zps6e0cbea4.jpg (http://s470.photobucket.com/user/jrmitch19/media/IMG_20130820_104916_264_zps6e0cbea4.jpg.html)

Also, if you use a release agent with your potting compound you can make your own connector. It's not ideal, but it will work if you have no other option. Your module appears to be mounted in a location that won't see much moisture/water anyway, so I don't see you having a problem with the foam method.

[samckitt]

E67 controller has 3 fan output drivers - however, when used with PWM fan control, only one of those outputs is utilized. It provides a PWM output at frequency specific to the fan driver controller. I've not measured voltage based on PWM % output to determine what way the voltage goes based on desired output.

Looking at the E67 pinout I see the 3 different fan terrminals:
FAN1 J3-49
FAN2 J1-54
FAN3 J1-41
Which one is used when using the PWM fan control?

[parsonsj]

The A/C pressure sensor is wired in at pins J3-21 (reference ground), J3-37 (reference 5V), and J3-57 (signal).

The PWM control wire is J3-64.

[samckitt]

The A/C pressure sensor is wired in at pins J3-21 (reference ground), J3-37 (reference 5V), and J3-57 (signal).

The PWM control wire is J3-64.

Ah, pin 64.... J3-64 FANSPD: IMTVPS

[samckitt]

The A/C pressure sensor is wired in at pins J3-21 (reference ground), J3-37 (reference 5V), and J3-57 (signal).

The PWM control wire is J3-64.

Just did some investigating on an old OEM harness I have & all three of the pins mentioned above have terminals in them. They are colored as follows:

J3-21 - Black
J3-37 - Gray
J3-57 - Red with black stripe.

All three go to the same 3 terminal connector of the AC pressure switch.


Connector: http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemId=910

Pressure switch: (wow $60) http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemId=1080

And J3-64 is solid blue.

[Lous69]

Finally fired up my car with the dual C6 corvette PWM fan modules hooked up to the ECM. Looks like all is well with that set up so far. We've only started it a coupe of times. Car goes to chassis dyno Monday to break it in exactly per GM recommendations.

[samckitt]

Hey Lou, you running two fans from one module or two modules, one for each fan? If two modules, you triggering both with one signal wire from the ECM?


And if Lou is running two modules, anyone know if you can run two fans from one module?

[Lous69]

We're running two fans with two modules, both triggered by the same ECU signal. Seems to work fine so far.

I believe our set up is overkill. You should be able to drive two fans with one module as long as you don't exceed the module's rating or the total amperage of the fan in the application the module was originally designed for.

[samckitt]

Anyone ever find a source for the connector for the module itself?

[Syclone892]

I have been following this post and have a question. I have a taurus fan and am getting the holley dominator which I want to make the fan powered by pwm. I was planning on get a solid state relay and send the pwm - signal to it to turn the relay on and off. I haven't checked any diagrams at work but looking at this module I am wondering is it just a nice looking solid state relay? The relay I plan on using is 4 wire so this has one extra wire, I think the extra one is + to fan motor?
Basically I would have
bat + to one side of the coil
pwm - to the other side of the coil
ground to fan motor from relay
ground from battery to relay
and I would have a + wire direct to the fan motor + wire
There would be fuses etc I was just making it quick for example. I like this module if its what I am thinking as its compact and looks more factory than a ssr, it would be nice to find the darn connector for it to finish it off though. So is it possible I could use this to power my taurus fan with my holley ecu?

Thanks to any one that can help out, this site has a lot of great info I have been taking in :D

[samckitt]

Your not going to get the PWM functionality with a relay, you need the PWM module. A relay you will get on and off, nothing else.

[Syclone892]

Hi Scot

I am defiantly new to this stuff and trying to understand just so you know and can go easy on me :D
From what I have been reading the dominator will send out a pwm + or - signal, if I wire that to a solid state relay the relay is able to handle the pwm signal and will pulse the power or ground of the fan. Here is where I got the idea
http://forums.holley.com/showthread.php?6569-Wiring-an-Electric-Cooling-Fan-Holley-EFI
So the way I understand it is the ecu is doing the controlling and can speed up or slow down the pwm and the relay will then pulse the power (or ground depending on hookup) to the fan.
To me thats what the stock e67 ecu is doing and sending it to this module which to me sounds like a ssr.

If I was able to get more info on this control module I may be able to understand it more but so far thats what I have gotten out of it :D

If this is just a nice ssr I was thinking of using it to control my fuel pump also because that is way less amps than fans.

Thanks for more info I hope I can understand this stuff even more before I have to start doing the actual work!

[samckitt]

Hmmm, give ti a try then & see if it will work. Let us know.

[Syclone892]

Well I just got one from amazon. First thing I must say is wow its bigger than I thought. Guess I should have looked at the amazon ad where it says 6x6x4. Figured I would mention that maybe others have thought it was smaller also.

I am still waiting for the dominator to show up so I can not test anything just yet but I defiantly will when it gets here :D
Now on the connector I would really like to find it, my brother looked at the #'s that were posted and he said the part # is the first 5, 48769. The 4 after it has something to do with the cavity and all the others are the type of material, pa6 is some sort of material along with gf and the 15 and 30 are the percentage of gf.

We searched all the places he could think of and no luck so far. He wanted to see if anyone could get some good pics of the connector especially on where the #'s are as that helps to see what brand it is I guess.
Hes also going to check through his work his they can come up with anything.
Otherwise I told him I'm going to have him 3d print me one :yes:

Just wanted to give an update and if/when I find anything on the connector I will get the word out and hopefully be able to help someone!

[dontlifttoshift]

When starting from scratch, how are you guys mounting the GM AC pressure switch?

[parsonsj]

It was a 3 step process for me: 1. get a sensor from GM (I called Jeff Tate at Riverside Chevrolet). 2. Get an adapter (I went to the local auto A/C expert) for the sensor to screw in. Cost me $20. 3. Send the assembly to Vintage Air, and they brazed #8 A/C ends on the adapter.

[dontlifttoshift]

I see, you put it in the 8. I'm going in the 6 with mine....at least I want to.

For an #8 with EZclip weatherhead FJ3427-0808s is an inline splice with the correct M10-1.25 port on it.

I was hoping someone had an adapter that would go in the drier.

[parsonsj]

Yep, that would be cleaner... but not how GM did it.

My Z06 has the sensor inline in the 8, so I followed suit. I doubt it matters.

[samckitt]

Yep, that would be cleaner... but not how GM did it.

My Z06 has the sensor inline in the 8, so I followed suit. I doubt it matters.

I went to the local junk yard & found a couple cars that had them on the already cut AC lines, so I cut the sensor & fitting out of the rest of the line. Local AC shop says they can braze them onto a 90 degree fitting. I got the sensors for $10 as you see below.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141009_204653_edit.jpg

[GregWeld]

Your module appears to be mounted in a location that won't see much moisture/water anyway, so I don't see you having a problem with the foam method.



I didn't go read the entire thread --- but whatever happened to the use of good old dielectric grease on an electrical connector to keep moisture and corrosion at bay.

I gave up on using "spade" connectors a long time ago -- now it's Metripak or Weatherpak only in my garage... particularly given the low voltages in todays electronics.


Some nice solutions on the A/C connectors!

[snappytravis]

Hi Scot

I am defiantly new to this stuff and trying to understand just so you know and can go easy on me :D
From what I have been reading the dominator will send out a pwm + or - signal, if I wire that to a solid state relay the relay is able to handle the pwm signal and will pulse the power or ground of the fan. Here is where I got the idea
http://forums.holley.com/showthread.php?6569-Wiring-an-Electric-Cooling-Fan-Holley-EFI
So the way I understand it is the ecu is doing the controlling and can speed up or slow down the pwm and the relay will then pulse the power (or ground depending on hookup) to the fan.
To me thats what the stock e67 ecu is doing and sending it to this module which to me sounds like a ssr.

If I was able to get more info on this control module I may be able to understand it more but so far thats what I have gotten out of it :D

If this is just a nice ssr I was thinking of using it to control my fuel pump also because that is way less amps than fans.

Thanks for more info I hope I can understand this stuff even more before I have to start doing the actual work!

I hooked my fans up to the holley hp ecu. I had to go in and turn the fans on and then designate two wires for 12-, I set the temp at when I want fan wire 1 to come on and it sends a 12- signal to the relay. I then set the temp for fan 2 wire and it also goes 12- when the temperature is reached. Seems to work good so far. For your fuel pump get a hold of Carl Casanova he is the owner of vaporworx. Good guy and great tech support.

[PTAddict]

For those who want to use the King Kong of PWM fans, the Cadillac SRX turbo fan that Mark Stielow uses, here is the part number and programming data from Mikels over on the Camaro XV thread:

"SRX turbo fan part number is 25931645 as you show. PWM controller is built in to fan motor - so no separate module like Corvette fan.

Max PWM duty cycle is 90% positive polarity @ 100 Hz (need this for calibration). Size wiring & fuse appropriately - 64 AMPS peak.

First used this fan on Red Devil and dropped coolant and oil temps ~10F just by changing to this fan from 400W Corvette fan.

Dave"

[SlowProgress]

Thanks for copying it over-great information.

[carbuff]

Apologies if it's already been mentioned, but do you happen to have the dimensions of that SRX fan? I'm wondering how well it would fit a 'normal' sized radiator which drops into most of our cars...

Thanx!

[samckitt]

Where are you buying this thing? I looked up the P/N & price ranged from the upper $500 to over $700.

[PTAddict]

Apologies if it's already been mentioned, but do you happen to have the dimensions of that SRX fan? I'm wondering how well it would fit a 'normal' sized radiator which drops into most of our cars...

Thanx!

I don't have the dimensions. But Stielow also used this fan on Red Devil and Mayhem, which both had more conventional radiator packaging ...

[mikels]

I don't have the dimensions. But Stielow also used this fan on Red Devil and Mayhem, which both had more conventional radiator packaging ...


Shroud is 609 mm wide x 585 mm tall ( 24x23 inches)

Fan itself is not much smaller.....

[samckitt]

So i gave these instructions to a friend to wire up the Vette PWM module. I told him to use pin J3-64 as the signal wire. He says it doesnt work and used J3-49 instead & it worked. What's up? Which pin have you guys used?
Thakns

[mikels]

So i gave these instructions to a friend to wire up the Vette PWM module. I told him to use pin J3-64 as the signal wire. He says it doesnt work and used J3-49 instead & it worked. What's up? Which pin have you guys used?
Thakns

J3-49 is correct for E67 PWM fan output control. (assuming you have also changed calibrations for PWM fan control)

Dave

[samckitt]

Thanks Dave.

Plugged it all in tonight to test, and after a few small bugs, it works! Its cool. No spike in amp draw, fan starts up slow, runs at a lower speed until you t gets hotter then runs faster. Cool.

I'm still looking for the real Bette connector and f anyone finds a source. I just used individual spade connectors.

[andrewb70]

Scot,

What fans are you using?

Also, does anyone have the dimensions of the C6 fan pn 15819952 ?

Andrew

[samckitt]

Before I started the LS swap I had an LT1 in the car and was using mid 90s impala SS fans. Still using them. I'm using one corvette module to power both fans.

[andrewb70]

Thank you everyone for posting the relevant information. Looks like I can use a C6 Corvette fan (it already comes with the controller plug), in my Cougar build. The plan is to use the Corvette controller module with the Holley Dominator ECU.

Anyone see any reason why this wouldn't work?

Andrew

[68Cuda]

Anyone know if the PWM output #1 (pin A19) on the XFI 2.0 can be used for fan PWM controller input?

[samckitt]

I want to add a Maxi fuse to the existing GMPP fuse box for the fans. I need this terminal for 10 or 12 gauge wire:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141229_105628.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141229_105651.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141229_105641.jpg

Anyone know where to get some?

[andrewb70]

For the sake of keeping this thread updated, the above terminal is found here:

http://www.ese4you.com/Delphi.pdf

Page 31.

Andrew

[samckitt]

I was at the junk yard today looking for some other stuff & came across a Cadillac that had a fuse box for the Max fuses only. I removed a couple terminals out of it & used that to add another circuit to my GMPP controller harness fuse box. I also discovered that the GMPP harness fusebox was used on full size GM trucks, Suburbans, & Tahoes in the mid 90's.

Here is pic of one I found in a Suburban:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141230_102157.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141230_102217.jpg


On my fuse box I cut the bus bar that feeds power to the Max fuses so I could pass the wires through the bottom of the box instead of routing it outside like it came from the factory. I moved those fuses up 2 spots & added the one for the fans. I found a Max breaker at the junk yard. I wrapped the wires with a zip tie to keep them from rubbing the buss bar where I cut it.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141230_200314.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141230_200304.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141230_201316.jpg

[andrewb70]

I picked up a C6 fan controller. It is definitely huge, but surprisingly light:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/cougar/168.jpg

Andrew

[CarlC]

For the sake of keeping this thread updated, the above terminal is found here:

http://www.ese4you.com/Delphi.pdf

Page 31.

Andrew

Most of that catalog comes from this http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.koehlke.com%2Fpdf%2FDelphi%2F Delphi_Global_Catalog.pdf&ei=o56nVP7vOdPaoAT1o4LoAQ&usg=AFQjCNFU8YyeO2gBuge8Yix7EY7PFNQWgQ&sig2=k93RhzlLmyMae_bW2tZyKA&bvm=bv.82001339,d.cGU

There's a boatload of other Delphi info available. Just search for Delphi Global Connection Systems Catalog, grab a barrel of popcorn, and settle in for a spell.

[andrewb70]

Most of that catalog comes from this http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.koehlke.com%2Fpdf%2FDelphi%2F Delphi_Global_Catalog.pdf&ei=o56nVP7vOdPaoAT1o4LoAQ&usg=AFQjCNFU8YyeO2gBuge8Yix7EY7PFNQWgQ&sig2=k93RhzlLmyMae_bW2tZyKA&bvm=bv.82001339,d.cGU

There's a boatload of other Delphi info available. Just search for Delphi Global Connection Systems Catalog, grab a barrel of popcorn, and settle in for a spell.

Carl,

Thanks for the link. What an amazing array of products!

Has anyone used a C6 radiator fan on their project? The reason that I ask is that I plan to use one on my Cougar, but I want to know how accurate the pictures are.

The AC Delco looks like this:

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=679566&cc=1442776

Some of the other off brands look like this:

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1990346&cc=1442776

I want one that looks like the AC Delco, but I read a review on Amazon that has me questioning the appearance. The review said that it didn't look as advertised, which has me scared to order it. The listing on Amazon has the following (scary note):

"Note: ACDelco partners with other manufacturers to supply the parts your car was originally built with. This product is in a ACDelco package, however the part may have been manufactured by an independent ACDelco supplier and could have a different color or shape than the product image above."

Anyone use the AC Delco one? Did it look like the one in the picture with the full shroud?

Andrew

[Syclone892]

Hi Andrewb70, the vette controller will work with the holley dominator as I am doing the same thing :-)
I haven't finished putting it all together but I did test it before going through all the work and it worked great! Just remember to turn the ignition off and resync it after changes otherwise it didn't accept.

I did find that the c5 vette controller terminals are the same size as maxi fuse terminals so that's what I used and just put hest shrink on the ends.
Thanks for the help here guys I really like this setup :D

[andrewb70]

Hi Andrewb70, the vette controller will work with the holley dominator as I am doing the same thing :-)
I haven't finished putting it all together but I did test it before going through all the work and it worked great! Just remember to turn the ignition off and resync it after changes otherwise it didn't accept.

I did find that the c5 vette controller terminals are the same size as maxi fuse terminals so that's what I used and just put hest shrink on the ends.
Thanks for the help here guys I really like this setup :D

Thanks for the info. I ordered a Dorman C6 fan through Amazon. It was $80 shipped and it already comes with the proper plug for the fan controller. Now I see that same fan for $121...Looks like I got a pretty good deal. I will post pictures once I get it.

Andrew

[samckitt]

Thanks for the info. I ordered a Dorman C6 fan through Amazon. It was $80 shipped and it already comes with the proper plug for the fan controller. Now I see that same fan for $121...Looks like I got a pretty good deal. I will post pictures once I get it.

Andrew

What PN did you use to find it?
Thanks

[andrewb70]

What PN did you use to find it?
Thanks

This is what I ordered, but it was $80...

http://www.amazon.com/Dorman-621-102-Radiator-Fan-Assembly/dp/B0042OTEMA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420472347&sr=8-1&keywords=Dorman+621-102

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

This is what I ordered, but it was $80...

http://www.amazon.com/Dorman-621-102-Radiator-Fan-Assembly/dp/B0042OTEMA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420472347&sr=8-1&keywords=Dorman+621-102

Andrew

That's about an 18" blade then?

Andrew, when you get the assembly can you get some measurements for me? Blade diameter and depth of the motor/blade please. Thanks!!

[andrewb70]

That's about an 18" blade then?

Andrew, when you get the assembly can you get some measurements for me? Blade diameter and depth of the motor/blade please. Thanks!!

Donny,

I sure hope it isn't an 18" blade! The C6 radiator core is only a hair than 17" tall, so I suspect this fan has a 16" blade (hopefully!).

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=539645&cc=1442776

I will definitely post pictures and dimensions when I get it. Should have it tomorrow.

Andrew

[samckitt]

This is what I ordered, but it was $80...

http://www.amazon.com/Dorman-621-102-Radiator-Fan-Assembly/dp/B0042OTEMA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420472347&sr=8-1&keywords=Dorman+621-102

Andrew


#%&*((*% wish I would have found it when it was $80.

Thanks

[andrewb70]

#%&*((*% wish I would have found it when it was $80.

Thanks

It was a total fluke. I've been researching these parts on various websites and I had seen that fan on Amazon for the $120 price. Then I checked it again a few days later and it was $80. I couldn't pass it up. Surely it can't be that bad, plus it comes with the proper connector for the C6 fan controller.

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

The dimensions on that radiator are a lot smaller than the dimensions shown on the fan......that's why I guessed about 18"

[andrewb70]

The dimensions on that radiator are a lot smaller than the dimensions shown on the fan......that's why I guessed about 18"

I am hoping it is a 16" blade. If you look at the fan picture, the shroud extends past the blade, and the shroud has to fit on the 17" core.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

So I got the C6 fan today. Not surprising, made in Taiwan, but who cares, iPhones are made in Taiwan too...

The fan assembly doesn't match the picture that is posted on Amazon. I don't know if there was a design change on these at some point, but here is what I got:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/cougar/177.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/cougar/178.jpg

The fan blade is 16.5" and it comes with the right connector to plug it into the C6 fan controller. There is even a little molded cradle for it. Imagine that.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/cougar/179.jpg

Just let me know if anyone wants any other measurements.

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

Thanks! I think I will replace the LS1 F body fans I have with that. I kind of like the half shroud, half open design, better than the full shroud.

[andrewb70]

Thanks! I think I will replace the LS1 F body fans I have with that. I kind of like the half shroud, half open design, better than the full shroud.

Donny,

I don't hate the open design. Once a car is moving you want as much air as possible to just flow through. I wish the C6 radiator didn't have that funky angles upper hose. I would just use it in the Cougar and this fan mounts right to the radiator itself.

http://www.luckysspeed.com/cw4/images/product_thumb/LG%20C6LGSUPERCOOL%20THUMB.jpg

Anyone have any creative ideas how to mount this thing?

Andrew

[carbuff]

Anyone have any creative ideas how to mount this thing?

I don't recall, do you already have your radiator? If not, can you have the mounts built in place on the end canisters just like the picture?

[samckitt]

Donny,

I don't hate the open design. Once a car is moving you want as much air as possible to just flow through. I wish the C6 radiator didn't have that funky angles upper hose. I would just use it in the Cougar and this fan mounts right to the radiator itself.

http://www.luckysspeed.com/cw4/images/product_thumb/LG%20C6LGSUPERCOOL%20THUMB.jpg

Anyone have any creative ideas how to mount this thing?

Andrew


What is this picture of the fan mounted from? Any close shots of the mount points?

[samckitt]

I went to the junk yard yesterday & found a couple modules with connectors on fans that were busted. One of the connector bodies has a little damage to it, but still seals out the weather.

Who wants one?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150107_141725-1.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150107_141736.jpg

[130fe]

PM sent Scot.

[Terrydmorgan]

I'm new to this forum, but I've been working on a couple pro-touring type Camaros for about 6 years. I'm on Pro-touring.com, but I haven't been active on this site, just lurking. I really appreciate the effort that went into this thread. This is an elegant implementation of a PWM controller for the cooling fans. I've ordered all the necessary items and will have mine hooked up soon too. Thanks for all the info.

I'm wondering if we could extend this solution to get rid of the binary switch in a Vintage Air system and let the ECM control the Sandeen compressor too. As I understand it, the function of the binary switch is to protect the compressor. That is, if the AC pressure is too high, the binary switch interrupts electric power from being delivered to the compressor clutch. Likewise, the binary switch will also turn off electric power to the AC clutch if AC pressure is too low. It seems logical that GM would implement a similar safety feature in their cars. And, since the AC pressure sensor is coupled to the ECM, it would seem likely that this binary type safety feature would be implemented in the ECM. Thus, I'd expect that there's a software routine in the ECM that uses high or low AC pressure to turn off the AC compressor clutch, and we might be able to modify this routine to use pressures that correspond to the Sandeen compressor instead of a production compressor. Moreover, I'd heard that GM's ECMs turn off the AC clutch if WOT or high RPMs is detected. The same routine may handle these functions too. These would be features I'd like to have implemented in my cars too.
I'm not highly experienced with ECMs and their software or with AC systems. I'm just trying to think about this logically. So, feel free to tell me I'm all wet, and/or point me to some materials that would help move this matter forward.

[mikels]

I'm new to this forum, but I've been working on a couple pro-touring type Camaros for about 6 years. I'm on Pro-touring.com, but I haven't been active on this site, just lurking. I really appreciate the effort that went into this thread. This is an elegant implementation of a PWM controller for the cooling fans. I've ordered all the necessary items and will have mine hooked up soon too. Thanks for all the info.

I'm wondering if we could extend this solution to get rid of the binary switch in a Vintage Air system and let the ECM control the Sandeen compressor too. As I understand it, the function of the binary switch is to protect the compressor. That is, if the AC pressure is too high, the binary switch interrupts electric power from being delivered to the compressor clutch. Likewise, the binary switch will also turn off electric power to the AC clutch if AC pressure is too low. It seems logical that GM would implement a similar safety feature in their cars. And, since the AC pressure sensor is coupled to the ECM, it would seem likely that this binary type safety feature would be implemented in the ECM. Thus, I'd expect that there's a software routine in the ECM that uses high or low AC pressure to turn off the AC compressor clutch, and we might be able to modify this routine to use pressures that correspond to the Sandeen compressor instead of a production compressor. Moreover, I'd heard that GM's ECMs turn off the AC clutch if WOT or high RPMs is detected. The same routine may handle these functions too. These would be features I'd like to have implemented in my cars too.
I'm not highly experienced with ECMs and their software or with AC systems. I'm just trying to think about this logically. So, feel free to tell me I'm all wet, and/or point me to some materials that would help move this matter forward.


You are correct in that GM ECM's do control AC compressor - however - GM ECM's receive AC compressor request signal over LAN from BCM (no discrete AC compressor request input directly to ECM).

So best solution I've come up with is AC pressure sensor into ECM to control fan output based on AC pressure - then use Vintage Air trinary switch to control compressor.

At least this way you can control fan output from coolant temp, oil temp, trans temp, intake air temp and AC pressure.

Dave

[Terrydmorgan]

Dave,
Thanks for the reply. I see, so if the ECM never receives an AC compressor request, then I assume the output signal from the ECM remains high all the time (i.e., the output is never pulled low by a real AC compressor request from the BCM)? Is there a way to permanently tie the AC compressor input request to simulate a constant request for AC from the BCM?
Terry


You are correct in that GM ECM's do control AC compressor - however - GM ECM's receive AC compressor request signal over LAN from BCM (no discrete AC compressor request input directly to ECM).

So best solution I've come up with is AC pressure sensor into ECM to control fan output based on AC pressure - then use Vintage Air trinary switch to control compressor.

At least this way you can control fan output from coolant temp, oil temp, trans temp, intake air temp and AC pressure.

Dave

[samckitt]

After much searching, I have finally found a supplier for the PWM module connector body & terminals. So soon these will be in my hands:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/connector.jpg

[parsonsj]

After much searching, I have finally found a supplier for the PWM module connector body & terminals. So soon these will be in my handsCan you tell us more about this supplier?

[samckitt]

I can't give out all secretes yet. But they supply them to the car manufactures. I bought 5 of them. Don't need all of them, so i will have some extras for sale.

[andrewb70]

Scot,

Is this top secret information? LOL

Andrew

[samckitt]

Scot,

Is this top secret information? LOL

Andrew

For now it is. :-)

[samckitt]

Connector parts showed up the other day, the wire seals will show up tomorrow.

Power terminals:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150122_144735.jpg

PWM signal terminals:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150122_144725.jpg

Connector body:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150122_144715.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150122_144656.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150123_093818.jpg

I have 5 complete sets. When the seals get here I will also have ECM terminals. If you have the GMPP controller kit & want to add the Maxi fuse/breaker in the fuse box to power the fan, I can get the terminal for that fusebox as well.

I spent a ton of time trying to find this connector. If you have searched it you know they aren't available from GM.

When the seals get here I will have everything needed (except the wire) to add this fan module. $50 shipped to anywhere in the US.

[Lous69]

As the original poster, I've been very proud of this thread and all the sharing that has taken place within it. Everyone who has contributed to it spent lots of time researching and learning what they shared. We all spent lots of money on the things that did not work before posting what did, we made lots of mistakes and tried to inform others so they would not have to make the same ones. For instance, the kind of advice Dave Mikels' has offered up in this thread is the result of YEARS of experience. That's what has always been so cool about these forums. Thank you to everyone who has freely contributed what you have learned in this thread.

[parsonsj]

Well put.

I'm putting all this information into direct use just over the past few days as my LS9 69 Camaro project has finally gotten out of paint jail.

I appreciate all the information and hard work. This has been a real highlight of a thread for the past couple of years!

Not one of us could do this sort of stuff by ourselves.

[andrewb70]

Information wants to be free. Set it free!

Andrew

[parsonsj]

In a related question, I'm using the stock ZR1 intercooler (charge coolant) pump and it has a two prong connector (just 12v power and ground). The GMPP LS9 harness has three wires (which are 12V, PWM signal -- J3-42 lt. blue/white, and ground)

The stock ZR1 runs without a PWM-controlled intercooler pump, and the GMPP LS9 harness has a PWM connector for the coolant pump. Why are ZR1 LS9 and the GMPP crate LS9 wired differently in this case?

Any insight or help is much appreciated!

[samckitt]

Donny,

I don't hate the open design. Once a car is moving you want as much air as possible to just flow through. I wish the C6 radiator didn't have that funky angles upper hose. I would just use it in the Cougar and this fan mounts right to the radiator itself.

http://www.luckysspeed.com/cw4/images/product_thumb/LG%20C6LGSUPERCOOL%20THUMB.jpg

Anyone have any creative ideas how to mount this thing?

Andrew

For others looking to mount the Corvette C6 fan on an aluminum radiator. I found that C&R Racing makes a OEM style aluminum radiator for Corvettes. I contacted them & was able to purchase the little mount tabs from them.

http://www.crracing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/20-00201-36mm-C6-Corvette-Rad.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/crracing.jpg

[andrewb70]

Scot,

Good stuff. So you ordered 2 of each? I gather each one of the part number is specific to the 4 corners...right?

Andrew

[samckitt]

I ordered 2 of the 0.55" tall with mounting hole & two of the 0.55" tall without mounting hole. Going off of the diagram they sent me, opposite diagonal corners are the same part.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/crracing2.jpg

[andrewb70]

Awesome. Just called them and ordered some. Surely I can cobble something together using the brackets and some other pieces.

Andrew

[samckitt]

My little clips showed up today, looks like they have been cut with a waterjet. Fan should be here soon as well as the radiator. Then can have them welded on.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150212_180812.jpg

[andrewb70]

Funny...mine showed up today as well. I am sure they are wondering what the heck is going on. C&R probably didn't sell this many all of last year...LOL

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/cougar/258.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/cougar/259.jpg

Andrew

[waynieZ]

Those brackets are going to make this fan a lot easier to mount. Nice!

[parsonsj]

In a related question, I'm using the stock ZR1 intercooler (charge coolant) pump and it has a two prong connector (just 12v power and ground). The GMPP LS9 harness has three wires (which are 12V, PWM signal -- J3-42 lt. blue/white, and ground)

The stock ZR1 runs without a PWM-controlled intercooler pump, and the GMPP LS9 harness has a PWM connector for the coolant pump. Why are ZR1 LS9 and the GMPP crate LS9 wired differently in this case?

Any insight or help is much appreciated!I got some good tech on this over on CorvetteForum: http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c6-corvette-zr1/3601321-intercooler-pump-wiring.html

[andrewb70]

I got some good tech on this over on CorvetteForum: http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c6-corvette-zr1/3601321-intercooler-pump-wiring.html

You got some good tech over there John. Here is a link that might be handy:

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=LPE&Category_Code=C534

Lingenfelter makes upgraded coolant pumps that are PWM. Isn't that what you want for this build?

Andrew

[parsonsj]

Lingenfelter makes upgraded coolant pumps that are PWM. Isn't that what you want for this build?
Yes, and no. I wanted a PWM installation because I thought that's what GM did with the C6 ZR1. But they didn't -- they just run the pumps at full speed. They even run the pump at full speed in the C7Z06.

My main question was the 3rd wire in the provided GMPP harness -- which I now know is a 5V signal to the ZL1 pump to, you guessed it, run the ZL1 pump at full speed. That wire is not a PWM signal, and there is no PWM option anywhere in the GM lineup, which continues to the present day.

Even the LPE Stewart option just runs at full speed, and is advertised as flowing as well as the ZR1 pump.

So... I'll run the ZR1 pump at full speed. It simplifies the wiring, and wraps up all the engine wiring questions.

[130fe]

Is the PWM fan control Function something that can be turned on with HP tuners?

[parsonsj]

Is the PWM fan control Function something that can be turned on with HP tuners?

Edit: Sorry! I thought you were asking about the coolant charge pump. Yep, the fans are easy to do.

[samckitt]

HP Tuner dialog for the GMPP LS2 ECM tune. Others probably different.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/hpt_fans.jpg http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/hpt_fans-1.jpg

[samckitt]

Funny...mine showed up today as well. I am sure they are wondering what the heck is going on. C&R probably didn't sell this many all of last year...LOL

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/cougar/259.jpg

Andrew

Hey Andrew, I got the C6 fan that you have. Wondering if you are seeing the same as I am. One of the clips with the hole, the hole doesnt line up with the hole in the fan shroud. You seeing that too?

[andrewb70]

Hey Andrew, I got the C6 fan that you have. Wondering if you are seeing the same as I am. One of the clips with the hole, the hole doesnt line up with the hole in the fan shroud. You seeing that too?

Yes Sir. I noticed that too. I guess I'll slot the hole. Won't be a big deal since you have to use a u-bolt there anyway. I wonder what the stock bolts that go in that location look like. And why is the hole square? LOL

Andrew

[samckitt]

I thought I would use something like this:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150217_195326_edit.jpg

[andrewb70]

I thought I would use something like this:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150217_195326_edit.jpg

That's it. I said u-bolt, but I meant u-nut.

Andrew

[samckitt]

Ah, U-nut, I never knew what these things were called.

[andrewb70]

Ah, U-nut, I never knew what these things were called.

Scot,

Someone on another forum posted that there are supposed to be some sort of rubber grommets that go into those square holes in the fan shroud. Let's see if we can track those down.

Andrew

[samckitt]

Scot,

Someone on another forum posted that there are supposed to be some sort of rubber grommets that go into those square holes in the fan shroud. Let's see if we can track those down.

Andrew

I'll find out. Probably something like this is my guess:

http://product-images.highwire.com/1966914/3316967.jpg

[andrewb70]

I'll find out. Probably something like this is my guess:

http://product-images.highwire.com/1966914/3316967.jpg

The ones with the metal inserts look about right. Where do you find those?

Andrew

[samckitt]

I Google-ed "rubber damper insert". I think an ACE hardware store near me has them. Not sure they have the metal insert.

[samckitt]

Connector parts showed up the other day, the wire seals will show up tomorrow.

Power terminals:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150122_144735.jpg

PWM signal terminals:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150122_144725.jpg

Connector body:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150122_144715.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150122_144656.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150123_093818.jpg

I have 5 complete sets. When the seals get here I will also have ECM terminals. If you have the GMPP controller kit & want to add the Maxi fuse/breaker in the fuse box to power the fan, I can get the terminal for that fusebox as well.

I spent a ton of time trying to find this connector. If you have searched it you know they aren't available from GM.

When the seals get here I will have everything needed (except the wire) to add this fan module. $50 shipped to anywhere in the US.


Wire seals finally showed up.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150224_073715.jpg

Now I have everything.

[parsonsj]

I've just finished wiring my customer's fans. I split the PWM signal (blue wire in, 2 green wires out) at the MetriPack 280 connector, and grounded the controllers to the radiator core support (just below the connector). The fan power and ground signals go down and connect to the fans below.

[waynieZ]

It looks nice John.

[erick_e]

I just registered after reading this entire thread.

I'm trying to figure out how to wire up a SPAL brushless fan using the factory C6 PWM controller.

Essentially I just want to replace the OEM fan with a more efficient brushless fan and use the PWM controller and ECU to control it.

The new fan has a PWM controller input, but I'm not sure if I can wire it directly to the PWM wire on the fan controller.

[carbuff]

Not sure I can help, but what is the SPAL part number of the fan which you have? I'm curious to read the installation manual for it...

[dontlifttoshift]

There wasn't much information out there for the SPAL brushless fans a while back. If I remember right, the PWM controller is already built into those fans and are designed to run off of their sending unit.

[erick_e]

Not sure I can help, but what is the SPAL part number of the fan which you have? I'm curious to read the installation manual for it...

Spal 30107035 (VA97-ABL309-98A) 17" brushless fan.

I've tried to look for any information on it, but cannot find very much. I was able to find a few schematics using their temperature sending unit and have the factory schematics, but I'm hoping to be able to use the ECU to control it.

I thought about running it in analog mode using the factory PWM controller, but don't know if that will function as originally designed.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/673/ouX47j.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/907/K0QmdL.jpg

[erick_e]

There wasn't much information out there for the SPAL brushless fans a while back. If I remember right, the PWM controller is already built into those fans and are designed to run off of their sending unit.

This is the only info I could find on that specific fan.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/903/uahsBn.jpg

[samckitt]

In the above circuit diagram, what does this symbol represent:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/symbol.jpg

[erick_e]

In the above circuit diagram, what does this symbol represent:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/symbol.jpg

Male/Female Inline Harness Connector

[samckitt]

Male/Female Inline Harness Connector

Ah, thanks. I didnt know if it was some type of electrical component. First thought was maybe a Diode, but then remembered it was a triangle with a line.

[andrewb70]

It seems that Spal makes various components to make this fan operate in PWM mode without using any sort of ECU, is that right?

Andrew

[erick_e]

It seems that Spal makes various components to make this fan operate in PWM mode without using any sort of ECU, is that right?

Andrew

Yes, they make a temperature sensor which controls the fan, but I still want to be able to control it using my ECU and tune.

I had a decent email conversation with SPAL tech support today. He informed me that there are only three wires going to the fan pos/neg/pwm. The yellow analog/override wire shown in the one schematic isn't actually present on the fan and that I need to use their white pwm wire to tell the fan how fast to run.

I told him I had the ability to adjust the pwm frequency and duty cycle in my ECU and he provided me with this response curve, but I still don't know how to make it work.

http://imageshack.com/a/img909/7557/1fPP9r.jpg


So now the question is what how do I use their pwm wire with my ECU.

He said 128 Hz should be ok, but if I really want to change it 100Hz would be the optimal.

Can I just change my PWM frequency in my ECU to 100 Hz and connect the green pwm fan controller wire to the white pwm fan wire?

[andrewb70]

What ECU are you using?

Andrew

[erick_e]

What ECU are you using?

Andrew

It's an E38. 2009 Corvette Z06 with E-Force.

[carbuff]

He informed me that there are only three wires going to the fan pos/neg/pwm. The yellow analog/override wire shown in the one schematic isn't actually present on the fan and that I need to use their white pwm wire to tell the fan how fast to run.

Ok, that makes much more sense to me. I was scratching my head as to what that wire was for. It didn't go anywhere else in the schematic.

Given the chart you have, I think there is a good chance that you could just connect the PWM wire of the fan directly to your ecu. It seems from your description and the schematics/datasheet that it may very well work. I can come up with a few reasons why it might not, but without having a setup to try and some tools to measure it, I can't say for sure.

From the graph you posted, there is nothing which indicates what frequency the Spal wants to receive natively. It shouldn't really matter that much, you will be off a little bit if your frequencies aren't exactly matching. But you can adjust your settings to get it to run and it will still cool.

I'd try it. :)

[samckitt]

Is the PWM fan control Function something that can be turned on with HP tuners?

Hey Chris, your inbox is full.

[samckitt]

I have a few left, anyone want one? $50 shipped.
Thanks,
Scot

[samckitt]

I ordered a different radiator, ordered the C6 fan from Amazon, ordered some little clips/brackets from C&R Racing and went to town. The Monte radiator is a little wider than the Vette radiator, so couldn't weld the brackets to the tanks like C&R racing does. I did on one side & had to use some 1/8" flat stock on the other side. Gotta find the bolts/nuts yet to bolt it on.

Here is what It looks like:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150320_153534.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150320_153540.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150320_153550.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150320_153610.jpg


http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150320_153456.jpg

[Ron in SoCal]

^ that looks great Scot! :welder:

Props for staying with it and getting it done on this project :cheers:

[SlowProgress]

That does look really good. I would be chicken to weld on a brand new radiator !

[65C6Corvette]

I am still a little confused from the prior posts. I am using an E67 ECM, vintage air Gen IV with sanden compressor and binary pressure sensor; and understand to use the AC Delco PWM controller.

I am clear on the ECM pin outs:

E67 Pinouts that need to be added are all on the J3 (grey) connector.
AC Pressure Sensor
J3-21 (ground) wire color black
J3-37 (5V) wire color grey
J3-57 (AC pressure signal) wire color red/black
PWM output
J3-49 wire color green

PWM Fan Control Module - AC Delco 15-80803
Pinouts
1) Fan (-)
2) Battery (-)
3) Battery (+) fused
4) Fan (+)
6) PWM output from ECM (J3-49)

AC Pressure Sensor from C6 Corvette
Pinouts
1) ground (connect to J3-21 on ECM - wire color black)
2) 5V (connect to J3-37 on ECM - wire color grey)
3) Pressure signal (connect to J3-57 on ECM - wire color red/black)


My confusing is with the C6 pressure sensor. Here is my question:

To what are you connecting the C6 Vette pressure sensor? Are you still using the the vintage air binary switch with the native wiring, or are you replacing the binary with a trinary and using the additional blue signal wire from the trinary switch as the input to J3-57; or are you keeping the vintage air binary switch and also adding the AC Pressure sensor? If so are you connecting it to the service port on the sander; or are you only using the C6 pressure sensor in place of the binary switch and connecting this to the vintage air harness as well as the ECM?

[samckitt]

I sent mine back. Wires were too short to mount the module, I also noticed the shroud was warped. Would have lived with it, but not not being able to mount the module. Also notice the Connector & terminals are not OEM style.


So I got the C6 fan today. Not surprising, made in Taiwan, but who cares, iPhones are made in Taiwan too...

The fan assembly doesn't match the picture that is posted on Amazon. I don't know if there was a design change on these at some point, but here is what I got:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/cougar/177.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/cougar/178.jpg

The fan blade is 16.5" and it comes with the right connector to plug it into the C6 fan controller. There is even a little molded cradle for it. Imagine that.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/cougar/179.jpg

Just let me know if anyone wants any other measurements.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I can't send mine back because I've already cut parts of the shroud. Mine is slightly warped as well and the wires for the connector are too short. I can't mount the controller on the shroud anyway because it interferes with the bottom outlet.

Yours looks perfect on the radiator!

Andrew

[samckitt]

Is there a preferred position where the AC pressure switch needs to mount? Between compressor & evaporator, evaporator - condenser, or condenser - compressor?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Is there a preferred position where the AC pressure switch needs to mount? Between compressor & evaporator, evaporator - condenser, or condenser - compressor?

anywhere between the condenser and evaporator. #6 line

[65C6Corvette]

anywhere between the condenser and evaporator. #6 line

Thanks,

This is helpful. Where did you install the trinary switch? Assuming that you also used it for the vintage air.

[parsonsj]

Where did you install the trinary switch? Assuming that you also used it for the vintage air.You don't want to use a trinary switch when the fan is being controlled by the ECM. You should use a binary switch to protect the compressor from over/under charge since the ECM doesn't control that.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Thanks,

This is helpful. Where did you install the trinary switch? Assuming that you also used it for the vintage air.


I usually put it right into the drier. But if I can't inline on the high side hidden in the fender.

You don't want to use a trinary switch when the fan is being controlled by the ECM. You should use a binary switch to protect the compressor from over/under charge since the ECM doesn't control that.

Yes, there should be an AC input wire right? Let me see if I can find the pin #

[parsonsj]

Yes, there should be an AC input wire right? Let me see if I can find the pin #On the E67, the A/C request signal is via CAN request from the BCM, not a signal wire. :(

[Vince@Meanstreets]

On the E67, the A/C request signal is via CAN request from the BCM, not a signal wire. :(

ECM fan request pins are a grounding circuit right?

[dontlifttoshift]

Shroud is 609 mm wide x 585 mm tall ( 24x23 inches)

Fan itself is not much smaller.....

To anyone that has an SRX fan, can you measure the blade itself for me? Using the eyecrometer it looks like the fan itself is 20" or more but I would like to have an actual measurement.

Thanks!

[samckitt]

Has anyone found a decent price for the SRX fan? What prices are you finding?

[parsonsj]

ECM fan request pins are a grounding circuit right?Yes, in a non-PWM setup, the fans are requested by a ground circuit.

[samckitt]

On the E67, the A/C request signal is via CAN request from the BCM, not a signal wire. :(

So with the GMPP controller (I believe it is an E67), there is no point adding the AC pressure sensor/switch? Unless the BCM is added?

[parsonsj]

So with the GMPP controller (I believe it is an E67), there is no point adding the AC pressure sensor/switch? Unless the BCM is added?It would be better if the A/C request went through the ECM so we could have compressor protection features (like RPM limit, WOT cutoff, overheating protection, etc.). But we don't, so all we get are fan control features via the A/C pressure sensor. Is it worth doing? I think so, but it isn't ideal, and the system needs a binary switch to protect the compressor since the ECM doesn't/can't.

If only Vintage Air or InfinityBox (nee ISIS) had support for GM's A/C CAN-bus request...

[samckitt]

Fits like it was made to go there. LOL

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150331_181253.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150331_181247.jpg

[samckitt]

Anyone else looking for one of these connector bodies for the PWM fan module? If so I will order a few more.

[cjfirstgen]

So what options does one have for integrating with an aftermarket ECM like in my case a FAST XFI? The FAST XFI ECM only has a negative relay control for fan on/off. I was reading about the Derale PWM controller but not a fan of the push in probe. Other options for a stand alone PWM?

http://derale.com/products/electric-fans/fan-controllers/pwm-controller/pwm-fan-controller-push-in-probe-detail

[65C6Corvette]

Anyone else looking for one of these connector bodies for the PWM fan module? If so I will order a few more.

Sam,

Get me two… Thanks, Dirk

[Old66Tiger]

Good thread. I have a few questions...

I am running an E38 ECU and currently have it set up in discrete mode with a pair of spal fans. I understand that programming is required to switch to PWM mode. I also understand that a binary or trinary switch is required to control the vintage air compressor for over or under pressure conditions. My question surrounds the need for a high pressure signal from the a.c. system to kick the fans into high speed. Is it possible to let the trinary switch send a ground signal to the ECU to send the fans to high speed when the a.c. system requires it? I have an a.c. input from the speartech harness for an a.c. input. Otherwise I will need to wire in a second switch into the #6 line between the condenser and the evap.

[samckitt]

Sam,

Get me two… Thanks, Dirk

Dirk, Not 100% if/when I will order them. If there is enough interest, i will, & I will let you know.
Thanks

[mikels]

Good thread. I have a few questions...

I am running an E38 ECU and currently have it set up in discrete mode with a pair of spal fans. I understand that programming is required to switch to PWM mode. I also understand that a binary or trinary switch is required to control the vintage air compressor for over or under pressure conditions. My question surrounds the need for a high pressure signal from the a.c. system to kick the fans into high speed. Is it possible to let the trinary switch send a ground signal to the ECU to send the fans to high speed when the a.c. system requires it? I have an a.c. input from the speartech harness for an a.c. input. Otherwise I will need to wire in a second switch into the #6 line between the condenser and the evap.

Best solution is to use trinary switch to control compressor and AC pressure sensor connected to ECM to control fans through PWM control. No way to have both (and no need).

Whole set up is described in detail in prior posts.

Hope this helps.

Dave

[andrewb70]

One of the benefits of getting the Dominator ECU is the huge amount of user programmable inputs and outputs.

On this project I wanted to do with my current build is to have the fan be controlled via PWM. This can be done using the Dominator ECU and the C6 Corvette fan controller. I am using a C6 fan as well, but this can be done with other fans, including the popular Spal dual fan set-up.

Enjoy.

7C-Y0VsD6pY



Andrew

[Old66Tiger]

Anyone have an E38 pinout to know where the pressure switch gets wired in? What kind does it take?

[parsonsj]

I'll dig it out of my 2007 Z06 book. Can't do it right now, will try for tonight.

[parsonsj]

According to my 2007 Y-Car (Corvette) Helms Manual, Vol. 2:

A/C Refrigerant Pressure Sensor Signal is C1-12
A/C Refrigerant Pressure 5V Reference is C1-34
A/C Refrigerant Pressure Low Reference is C1-13

Hope that's what you're looking for!

jp

[Old66Tiger]

Thanks...I need to dig into this further to see how far I want to take it.

[andrewb70]

Fits like it was made to go there. LOL

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150331_181253.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150331_181247.jpg

Scot,

What do you what the connector is on the input side of the C6 fan harness? Is it a MetriPac 800?

Andrew

[samckitt]

I found a connector in the junk yard in a car that had next to nothing left of it. I glanced in the engine bay and found it there on the fan. It has 2 large terminals for power and one smaller for the signal wire. So I grabbed it. No idea what the car was.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150519_213905.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150519_213951.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150519_214032.jpg

[andrewb70]

I found a connector in the junk yard in a car that had next to nothing left of it. I glanced in the engine bay and found it there on the fan. It has 2 large terminals for power and one smaller for the signal wire. So I grabbed it. No idea what the car was.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150519_213905.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150519_213951.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150519_214032.jpg

That looks different than the connector that came on the C6 fan, so I guess you just spliced it in?

Andrew

[samckitt]

You are right Andrew, I heard of issues with the stock Corvette connector overheating & melting. So when I saw this one that has bigger terminals, I grabbed it to use. I took the connector apart, & opened the crimp on the terminals, removed wire attached wire from fan harness, crimped & soldered.

[GregWeld]

Weather Pack connectors are good to 20 amps -- after that you switch to METRI-PAK 480 series connectors which will handle 42 amps. There are other "series" which will handle higher loads but 42 amps per fan is plenty of surplus as they'll pull about 30 amps or less.

[andrewb70]

Weather Pack connectors are good to 20 amps -- after that you switch to METRI-PAK 480 series connectors which will handle 42 amps. There are other "series" which will handle higher loads but 42 amps per fan is plenty of surplus as they'll pull about 30 amps or less.

Greg,

Excellent segway...I just picked up some 3 cavity Delphi GT480 connectors. They are rated at 42 amps, as you said.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/cougar/473.jpg

I will run my power (+/-) and the PWM wires to the fan controller through this connector.

Andrew

[erick_e]

After finally experiencing the melted connector on my corvette, I decided to upgrade to a more reliable solution that won't derate with high under hood temperatures.

I ended up going with a Anderson Power connector rated at 75A.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1220x686q90/539/VN0DH7.jpg

If you are interested you can read my post at the link below.

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c6-z06-discussion/3523928-how-to-repair-your-melted-fan-connector.html

[andrewb70]

I wonder why those factory connectors fail. Hard to imagine that it is simply current draw. The Corvette fan is said to be 400watts, so it should draw less than 35 amps. Heat? Moisture? Other causes of failure?

As I posted, I plan to use the Delphi GT480 series connector, which is rated at 42 amps. Where did you source the 3 cavity Anderson connectors and terminals?

Andrew

[erick_e]

I wonder why those factory connectors fail. Hard to imagine that it is simply current draw. The Corvette fan is said to be 400watts, so it should draw less than 35 amps. Heat? Moisture? Other causes of failure?

As I posted, I plan to use the Delphi GT480 series connector, which is rated at 42 amps. Where did you source the 3 cavity Anderson connectors and terminals?

Andrew

In most, but not all, of the failures I've seen the fans have been set to run at 100% by a custom tune instead of the factory 90%.

Got my parts from Mouser. Detailed parts list is in my corvette forum thread. Total cost was less than $35 for the connectors and terminals.

[andrewb70]

In most, but not all, of the failures I've seen the fans have been set to run at 100% by a custom tune instead of the factory 90%.

Got my parts from Mouser. Detailed parts list is in my corvette forum thread. Total cost was less than $35 for the connectors and terminals.

I was under the impression that the fan controller won't even work with duty cycle numbers that are less than 5 and more than 90%. That was certainly the case when I was playing around with number on the Dominator ECU.

http://forums.holley.com/showthread.php?15528-PWM-Electric-Cooling-Fan/page2

Andrew

[mikels]

In most, but not all, of the failures I've seen the fans have been set to run at 100% by a custom tune instead of the factory 90%.

Got my parts from Mouser. Detailed parts list is in my corvette forum thread. Total cost was less than $35 for the connectors and terminals.

Correct. Factory PWM controllers have max output @ 90% commanded duty cycle. I've never set them above to 'investigate potential failure modes', but could see that unknowledgeable calibrators could mistakenly assume 100%>90% so must be better.

Factory fans are rated in watts, stock C6 fan is a 400W (so @ 12.5 volts = 32 amps).

Newer 850W fans we've been using on higher output applications are ~68 amps (850/12.5). They use the connector that was shown a couple posts back. That and 10mm wire (between 6 and 8 ga). Have to consider generator output capability with all the high electrical loads.

Another benefit of PWM fans is they never have onrush of current draw since they ramp-up to output. Discrete fans can have considerable spike in amperage when turning on. (hard on electrical, idle stability, etc.)

Dave

[CarlC]

Another benefit of PWM fans is they never have onrush of current draw since they ramp-up to output. Discrete fans can have considerable spike in amperage when turning on. (hard on electrical, idle stability, etc.)Dave

100% agree. Even with a 75A rating, the relay failed on the Camaro when using a Mark-VIII fan. The electrical connector at the fan also started to melt. PWM cured those problems. I won't ever do a discrete system again.

[130fe]

Just saw this on FB, here is another option for integrating the GM AC pressure switch. https://www.facebook.com/pages/BP-Automotive/453192731414826 BP Automotive sell a dryer that has a metric port built in.

[andrewb70]

Today I finished the mounting of my C6 fan to my radiator and I filled the coolant system. Started the engine and brought it up to temp. The fan gently started to run as the temps rose. It was beautiful.

Does anyone have an idea of what the ramp up table might look like?

Andrew

[samckitt]

Stock 2013 Vette:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/temp_fan.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/ac_fan.jpg

[andrewb70]

Is there a % vs. VSS table? What's the thermostat temp on the Corvette?

Andrew