Shooting in Connecticut

[enzo]

I am a Father of 3 young boys, my oldest being in Kindergarten. My prayers go out to those families involved in today's tragedy. God bless them - I can't begin to imagine the sorrow that was thrust upon them today.

The act of victimizing small helpless children is an act of a coward. May your soul burn in the bowels of hell for all eternity.

Those poor little kids... their lives were stolen for someone's selfish reason.

Hug your kids - and hug your parents... no one deserves this.

Connecticut

[Shmoov69]

Amazing. Don't know how someone can do this. It's completely unthinkable how evil, "evil" really is.

And on the tinfoil hat theory, I wouldn't put it past the government to push a "grander scheme"... It "fits" awful nicely right now. :_paranoid

[glassman]

Yes, evil does exist, this is proof. My heart breaks for those directly affected, and it also breaks for this tragedy period.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

truly tragic. there is no safe place in the world.

Heart goes out to those affected.

[frankv11]

as a parent this is terrifying. words can not express the emotions and feelings towards such an act.
my condolences to every one affected by this cowardly act.
some how it seems like you see this type of thing more and more.

I think they should have a selected percentage of teachers/school faculty trained and certified to carry firearms in every school just for this very reason.

[nicks67ca]

I grew up in Newtown Ct. I know friends that lost loved ones. I have friends that are police officers, emts, and volunteer fire fighters. It is just unreal. I find myself crying just looking at my daughter thanking god. So sad. So sad.

[GregWeld]

I guess we'll truly never understand these tragedies. I cried watching the news reports. You just can't even imagine the horror for the entire community.

[eliterides]

Just saw this sad story on our news tonight .
Yet another senseless shooting.
The newly elected government needs to act and legislate new gun laws to try and stop this senseless killing.


My sympothies go out to all who have been effected by this latest mass shooting

[nicks67ca]

I just learned a high school friend just lost his niece. Please thoughts and prayers for her and her family. The name isn't public yet.

[Al Moreno]

I just learned a high school friend just lost his niece. Please thoughts and prayers for her and her family. The name isn't public yet.

God, I'm sorry to hear that!!!

[GregWeld]

Just saw this sad story on our news tonight .
Yet another senseless shooting.
The newly elected government needs to act and legislate new gun laws to try and stop this senseless killing.


My sympothies go out to all who have been effected by this latest mass shooting


So what would the "newly elected government" do about it? Outlaw Mental illness? The second amendment in the United States Constitution is the right to keep and bear arms. It's that right that keeps this country safe from invasion IMHO. Who in their right mind would dare to invade a country that has 90 guns per 100 people?

Guns / knives / bombs etc don't kill other people. People kill other people. Should we outlaw people?

[GregWeld]

I don't want to jack this thread --- so I'll keep this simple.


In response to the "government should do something" statement.


The US murder rate is 4.2 PER 100,000 in population.... We have a very large population so while the rate is low -- the math is high... making it seem like we have an overabundance of these kinds of events.

By contrast -- a favorite east coast vacation spot -- the Bahamas -- has a murder rate of 27.4 per 100,000.... Jamaica's is 52.2 per 100,000... Mexico's is 16.9 per 100,000

Yet we LOVE to go on vacations to these murderous places. Go figure.

The rate of civilian gun ownership in Mexico is 15 per 100 people -- in the USA it's 90 per 100 people.... but Mexico's murder rate is 4 times the rate of the USA. Must be something in the water down there. Jamaica has 8.1 per 100 civilian gun ownership... but their murder rate is 12 times that of the USA.

[Vegas69]

It's impossible to understand why these things happen. I'm with you guys, I was full of rage and very sad thinking of the terror those poor children went through. The horror their parents, siblings, and families will have to endure for life.....

I personally think there are things that can be done to help.

All the video games these kids play today can't be helping the situation. They really need to crack down on all these war games kids can play. It's a bad influence...

We need to protect our children and teachers. We have school police already. Why not have one armed officer on every school grounds? Every door should be lockable. We have metal detectors and scanning equipment to board a plane, why not at the main entrance of a school? You can raise my taxes to protect our children, teachers, and future.....

Get your CCW. The more good guys that carry, the safer our country will become.

Get out there and mentor a child that needs help. I volunteer for Big Brothers/Big Sisters as a Big Brother for an 8 year old that lives in downtown Las Vegas. He doesn't have a father figure in his life. He's a great kid but his enviroment very well could lead him down the wrong road. I'm going to be a postive influence on him as long as possible. I'm already talking to him about doing the right thing, money, nutrition, excercise, education, choices, etc...

If you are a first time gun buyer, you should be required to take some type of course. I had to get a hunters safety card to hunt with my Dad. Why can you go buy a shotgun or handgun without any training? The course should include the potential power and distruction of firearms.

[Cole]

It's impossible to understand why these things happen. I'm with you guys, I was full of rage and very sad thinking of the terror those poor children went through. The horror their parents, siblings, and families will have to endure for life.....

I personally think there are things that can be done to help.

All the video games these kids play today can't be helping the situation. They really need to crack down on all these war games kids can play. It's a bad influence...

We need to protect our children and teachers. We have school police already. Why not have one armed officer on every school grounds? Every door should be lockable. We have metal detectors and scanning equipment to board a plane, why not at the main entrance of a school? You can raise my taxes to protect our children, teachers, and future.....

Get your CCW. The more good guys that carry, the safer our country will become.

Get out there and mentor a child that needs help. I volunteer for Big Brothers/Big Sisters as a Big Brother for an 8 year old that lives in downtown Las Vegas. He doesn't have a father figure in his life. He's a great kid but his enviroment very well could lead him down the wrong road. I'm going to be a postive influence on him as long as possible. I'm already talking to him about doing the right thing, money, nutrition, excercise, education, choices, etc...

If you are a first time gun buyer, you should be required to take some type of course. I had to get a hunters safety card to hunt with my Dad. Why can you go buy a shotgun or handgun without any training? The course should include the potential power and distruction of firearms.


Totally agree.. and thank you for volunteering time to nurture a youngster..

[IMPALA MAN]

It's so easy to blame the guns. Unfortunately outlawing or cracking down on guns, I don't think is the answer. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. It's like everything. Automobiles....If everyone drove sensible, we wouldn't even need speed limits. Alcohol.....if everyone drank responsibly, we wouldn't need laws to restrict how it is used. Guns are no different. It's not the people that are responsible with guns that are the problem, however they are going to be part of the people that have to pay the consequences. If we didn't have terrorists, we all wouldn't need to be searched at airports, etc.
Unfortunately, because of these unresponsible people, I think we all are going to have to go through some extra steps to bear arms. I don't think we should be mad at the officials making the rules. Be mad at the "idiots" that are irresponsible, causing the rules to be made. It really is unfortunate for the responsible people.
Let's play one out. We make it easier for any American to bear arms. One person decides one night he has had enough of his neighbor down the road who is annoying him. This same person over the past 2 years has become mentally unstable due to a divorce, job loss, etc. He digs up a six shooter, goes to his neighbors house who has a complete arsonal of guns and is responsible. The neighbor comes to the door and gets shot with a six shooter. The responsible gun owner is still dead. Unless you know who is going to shoot you, having a gun is kind of usless.
I do think the real answer is stiffer penalties when it does happen, this MAY detour some people from acting the way they do. I still like the law where as soon as someone enters your home, all bets are off. They knew the rules when they stepped over the threshold uninvited! Game on and enter at your own risk. My .02 worth. The whole deal kind of sucks. I'm not a gun toter nor am I an "anti-gun protestor" Just an American who cares about good responsible people.

[Vegas69]

Some other ideas that have been swimming....

Have an active military officer staffing every school. Don't tell me we can't alternate them and sacrifice their time. We are already paying them. Kelli's brother is a former Marine that is having trouble finding work. What about reservists or retired military?

While it seems like common sense, lock up your guns! Especially if you have kids or mentally disturbed individuals. In that afformentioned class when buying your first firearm, a lecture on buying a SAFE and securing your firearms, ethically.

I'm going to write the Mayor of Henderson and my local representitive with my ideas. Do the same.

[intocarss]

JUST READ THIS

http://www.dailypaul.com/266479/surprising-message-from-morgan-freeman-he-blames-the-media-for-ct-shooting

MORGAN FREEMAN ON THE SHOOTINGS YESTERDAY:

"You want to know why. This may soundcynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names,but do you know the name of asingle victim of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse,and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school?Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster,instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem."

[Vegas69]

Absolutely, in this day and age, you can let the news suck you down to a low level every day. TV, Radio, Facebook, Yahoo, etc. Bad news sells.... It's not going to change and the sick aren't going to change their ways.

We need to protect our children, end of story.

[realcoray]

So what would the "newly elected government" do about it? Outlaw Mental illness? The second amendment in the United States Constitution is the right to keep and bear arms. It's that right that keeps this country safe from invasion IMHO. Who in their right mind would dare to invade a country that has 90 guns per 100 people?

Guns / knives / bombs etc don't kill other people. People kill other people. Should we outlaw people?

Do you think that you can limit some gun related things that would lessen the damage?

For example the day it happened you mentioned the China attack. The argument there is that it'll happen anyways so don't touch guns.

The difference is in the sheer damage you can do with completely legal gun hardware compared to knives. A bomb also rarely manages to kill so many people as efficiently as an assault rifle can.

I'm not saying you ban guns, but I see only a few valid reasons to have one, and neither requires high capacity clips or a high fire rate for example.

[IMPALA MAN]

Some other ideas that have been swimming....

Have an active military officer staffing every school. Don't tell me we can't alternate them and sacrifice their time. We are already paying them. Kelli's brother is a former Marine that is having trouble finding work. What about reservists or retired military?

While it seems like common sense, lock up your guns! Especially if you have kids or mentally disturbed individuals. In that afformentioned class when buying your first firearm, a lecture on buying a SAFE and securing your firearms, ethically.

I'm going to write the Mayor of Henderson and my local representitive with my ideas. Do the same.

Ok members, I have to ask. As many of you have already noticed, there are two threads that have seemed to run next t each other the last few days.
"Shooting in CT" and "Best Handgun for home protection".
That being said, for all the "home use" people, are you locking them up when not used or are they in a location that someone other than you will have a hard time finding them? Just asking and maybe it will save a life

[Boss 5.0]

I live in CT and have kids in middle school. This has really effected me. This is just so tragic on so many levels.

I don't own a gun, nor am I opposed to gun ownership. But I have to ask the question, why is it necessary to own an assault rifle? That gun is a killing machine plain and simple. In this case, had his mother owned a couple hand guns and that was it there would be far less lives lost here. But because of the semi automatic assault rifle we have major carnage. I don't get it, and I never will. There will never be a rational explanation to me as to why these guns need to be owned by the general public. I know she owned them legally, but that doesn't change anything for me.

I do think everyone has a constitutional right to bear arms. But an assault rifle, really? You aren't using that for target practice, or hunting. It has one intended use. Tragically in this case it was used exactly as it was designed.......

[camcojb]

I live in CT and have kids in middle school. This has really effected me. This is just so tragic on so many levels.

I don't own a gun, nor am I opposed to gun ownership. But I have to ask the question, why is it necessary to own an assault rifle? That gun is a killing machine plain and simple. In this case, had his mother owned a couple hand guns and that was it there would be far less lives lost here. But because of the semi automatic assault rifle we have major carnage. I don't get it, and I never will. There will never be a rational explanation to me as to why these guns need to be owned by the general public. I know she owned them legally, but that doesn't change anything for me.

I do think everyone has a constitutional right to bear arms. But an assault rifle, really? You aren't using that for target practice, or hunting. It has one intended use. Tragically in this case it was used exactly as it was designed.......
I believe he used hand guns. The rifle was found in his Mothers car.

[nicks67ca]

i went to church this morning in newtown. My parents were married there, my wife and i married there, and our child had her christening there. They are planning 8 funnerals right now. One of the girls was going to be in the christmass show at church.

My freind whom i played football with, hung out with, spent hundreds of hours on and off the field lost his niece.

My wife works in Newtown (hairdresser) her client lost her daughter. She has cut both their hair.

There is no one in this community that isn't directly impacted by this. I am still broken up. Thought and prayers right now.

Regarding the saftey of firearms. I carry all the time and sit here wondering how to make the system better. At a minimum education and securing them when not in use come to mind. Also the high school has a full time resource officer there.

Thanks Nick

[GregWeld]

Do you think that you can limit some gun related things that would lessen the damage?

For example the day it happened you mentioned the China attack. The argument there is that it'll happen anyways so don't touch guns.

The difference is in the sheer damage you can do with completely legal gun hardware compared to knives. A bomb also rarely manages to kill so many people as efficiently as an assault rifle can.

I'm not saying you ban guns, but I see only a few valid reasons to have one, and neither requires high capacity clips or a high fire rate for example.




Go back and read post number 12


Guns don't kill people. People kill people. It seems to make little difference what's used - if the intent of the person is to do such atrocities they'll figure out a way to carry out their intent. That's why I said -- what should we do? Outlaw mental illness? That's what really caused this. The semi auto gun made it relatively easy to carry out... but we don't know that he wouldn't have chosen to drive his car on to the play field at recess and mow down everyone he could have.

There's just something really really wrong with these people... and I just don't see how anyone thinks we can legislate or regulate them and what they may do.


We have 300 million people or more in this country -- some of whom are whack jobs. Laws only stop law abiding citizens. They never stop someone from breaking the law.


Go here

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=118&cat=2

and compare state by state the AUTO death rate per 100,000 and you'll see that it's TWICE and more in almost every single state in the union than the murder rate of the US. I don't see any discourse on banning cars and trucks.... nobody is outraged... yet deadly accidents happen day after day regardless of the hundreds of laws around driving - and all the safety equipment - and all the police around.


If guns are to blame for the death rate -- then with the highest guns per capita in the world - we should then have the highest murder rate/death rate by gun in the world... and we don't. We're not even close. So the numbers / justification just don't add up.

I agree with Morgan Freeman.... it's the news and the sensationalized reporting which people are drawn to like moths to a flame. But maybe even then you can't explain these tragic events. I mean seriously - who in their right mind kills their mother?

Mind you -- I've now cried TWICE over this immensely disturbing event. I'm a father of two - I can't even imagine the sorrow people are feeling. But I don't connect the weapon of choice to the causation, or even the result.

[nicks67ca]

I believe he used hand guns. The rifle was found in his Mothers car.

The medical examiner stated yesterday all mortal wounds were done with the rifle. The information was just too scattered at the time that was announced.

[nicks67ca]

Some other stories from friends first hand.

My brothers freind dropped his wife off at the school she was the last person into the building before the gunman. this is the first year in a decade that they havn't had a child in the school. She survived.

My cousins daughter hurt her ankle the day before the shooting. She stayed home to go to the doctors office. Thank god she wasn't there.

A Janitor at the police station jumped into a cruiser with a police officer to help evacuate children. He is a freind of the family.

[Vegas69]

You can't prevent them all, but improvements can always be made to the sytems in place to prevent some future occurences. Like your own life, you have adapted to your enviroment by neccessity. There is a clear history of school massacres. It's time for things to change at our schools.

To have such innocence with NO protection is no longer going to work with modern society. We need to start with a highly trained officer/troop at each school to help deter or take care of business. It's just common sense and we have the resources to easily make it happen.

My letter is done and going out tomorrow.....

[nicks67ca]

You can't prevent them all, but improvements can always be made to the sytems in place to prevent some future occurences. Like your own life, you have adapted to your enviroment by neccessity. There is a clear history of school massacres. It's time for things to change at our schools.

To have such innocence with NO protection is no longer going to work with modern society. We need to start with a highly trained officer/troop at each school to help deter or take care of business. It's just common sense and we have the resources to easily make it happen.

My letter is done and going out tomorrow.....

This I like. The school had 600 children there. I thinks its worth the overtime.

[GregWeld]

You can't prevent them all, but improvements can always be made to the sytems in place to prevent some future occurences. Like your own life, you have adapted to your enviroment by neccessity. There is a clear history of school massacres. It's time for things to change at our schools.

To have such innocence with NO protection is no longer going to work with modern society. We need to start with a highly trained officer/troop at each school to help deter or take care of business. It's just common sense and we have the resources to easily make it happen.

My letter is done and going out tomorrow.....


If I have "intent" -- the first guy that gets taken by surprise is the guy with a gun. There's so many doors in a school - they're large places - they're "porous" with windows (usually low) etc. They're porous with people coming and going at all hours. I worked playground duty for 5 or 6 years at our kids elementary school. The traffic in and out was constant - and from multiple doors. Look at Columbine... that was a GROUP of students! That wasn't a random insane adult from outside. That was planned... So to me - if they knew there was armed resistance - that would have just been incorporated into the plan - a simple distraction at one end of the school - draw the officer into a trap... and now we would have just added to the death count and added another weapon and ammo and armor to be used at the scene.

[GregWeld]

I'm taking the stance by the way -- not because I'm in complete disagreement... I'm just trying to point out that you can't defend from every thing that happens in life.


An officer is a "feel good" mechanism -- it would make law abiding normal citizens feel good... I feel good because I know there are police - fireman - EMT's nearby. There is someone who will react to my need should the need arise. It won't stop my house from catching fire. It won't stop me from speeding when I want to. It won't stop me from having a heart attack.

I'm an internationally licensed pyro. I can think of dozens of ways I could cause far more carnage in a school or a mall or any number of public places. It's happening in Mosques and shops and cafes in Iraq and Afghanistan... I'm sure there's laws against suicide vests -- and IED's -- and lord knows there's enough military firepower around to prevent almost anything. Except and unless SOMEONE wants to kill people and doesn't care what happens to themselves.

[nicks67ca]

And now an evacuation at the same church St Rose. I was just there this morning. Sounds like some sort of threat.
ugh

[GregWeld]

My last post is - as my others have been - posted to be "thought provoking" -- not argumentative -- just stuff to think about.


How many of you own these killing games for the video play stations? How many of you have bought them for your kids...

Do you think that making a game out of killing people / monsters / other army's is a good value to have?

I have NONE of these at my house. Every time I see an Ad for these - I shake my head in a WTF kind of way. What are we teaching kids with these "games"?

If it's the weapons etc that do all these crazy atrocities... We should have a mass murder like this every single day. Why? Think about all the "ex" and current, Navy Seals... Marines... Army Special Ops guys etc that our government has trained year after year. These are some of the most lethal human beings on the planet - maybe in the universe... Personally I'd feel the safest on a bus full of them... over a bus with normal people and one "street urchin"... I can't remember ever reading about one of them committing something as heinous as this. Nothing would stop them if they wanted to do mayhem. What stops them is, they are SANE. The "street urchin"? I'm not so sure about him.

There is a current instance of this on trial now - where the guy shot up an entire village in Afghanistan.. The guy has to be insane. BTW -- there were dozens(?) of other troops around this guy with weapons and training etc... but it didn't stop him. Just saying - there was plenty of "deterrents" around. It just didn't help.

[realcoray]

I'm taking the stance by the way -- not because I'm in complete disagreement... I'm just trying to point out that you can't defend from every thing that happens in life.


Indeed, but don't you think that it's a lot easier to kill 20+ people with a rapid fire high capacity gun versus a knife? Show me a knife attack anywhere in the ballpark of one of these school shootings.

Bombings are completely different in that to achieve the same effect would require a tremendous amount of work and planning, including things that could tip the police off in advance.

I see guns being valid for two reasons, hunting and self defense. I don't think you need an uzi or something for either, and I think you don't need 19+ round clips for either.

[GregWeld]

And now an evacuation at the same church St Rose. I was just there this morning. Sounds like some sort of threat.
ugh



So sorry Nick! That's the last kind of thing you all need now!


This kind of stuff just kills your spirit. I think because of the sense of helplessness we all have. We all want to be able to fix the world.. and somehow we can't.

[Vegas69]

If I have "intent" -- the first guy that gets taken by surprise is the guy with a gun. There's so many doors in a school - they're large places - they're "porous" with windows (usually low) etc. They're porous with people coming and going at all hours. I worked playground duty for 5 or 6 years at our kids elementary school. The traffic in and out was constant - and from multiple doors. Look at Columbine... that was a GROUP of students! That wasn't a random insane adult from outside. That was planned... So to me - if they knew there was armed resistance - that would have just been incorporated into the plan - a simple distraction at one end of the school - draw the officer into a trap... and now we would have just added to the death count and added another weapon and ammo and armor to be used at the scene.

I agree but the criminals in these cases are not highly trained Navy seals. They are sick kids. The positives of having a trained officer/solidier outweigh the negatives. This particular wacko committed suicide once he knew armed police were on the scene. He prayed on the innocent because he was a coward.

[GregWeld]

Indeed, but don't you think that it's a lot easier to kill 20+ people with a rapid fire high capacity gun versus a knife? Show me a knife attack anywhere in the ballpark of one of these school shootings.

Bombings are completely different in that to achieve the same effect would require a tremendous amount of work and planning, including things that could tip the police off in advance.

I see guns being valid for two reasons, hunting and self defense. I don't think you need an uzi or something for either, and I think you don't need 19+ round clips for either.



You could make a (several!) pipe bomb by getting on the internet -- going to the hardware store - one stop at Cabella's... and be at an event within an hour or two of deciding to do something like that. NOTHING would stop you (anyone). No law. No amount of law enforcement. The only hope would be that you'd mess up and blow yourself up before you could commit such a thing.

I'm not being a "gun" advocate... Not at all. In fact -- I'm not arguing GUNS at all -- I'm arguing what can be done about this kind of thing. I'm just saying that while we like to be reactionary and "do something".... I don't think there is anything anyone can do to stop this kind of stuff. In fact - I would say there is absolutely ZERO you can do.

I love the fact that you can ONLY carry on 3 ounces of 'liquid' boarding a plane. Really? So the planes that were used in 9/11 had 4 guys each on them - that's 12 ounces of 'liquid' if each got on with one 3 oz bottle... These people are crazy they don't care if they die. If they need 6 guys they'll round up 6 guys.


BTW --- I think that schools would need TWO -- officers minimum and three or 4 at larger schools. I'm not against that at all. But ONE.... one is not protection from anything. There might need to be one per entrance door. Then you'd have a fighting chance at prevention... but then I feel the "intentional person" would just move to a different venue.

[Vegas69]

It's been brought to my attention that High Schools here do have multiple armed officers. That makes it even easier to implement into elementaries and middle schools. I agree, one isn't enough. It should be based on the school size.

The truth is, most of thse variables are not going to change. The news isn't going to quit reporting negativiely, parents will continue to let there kids play war games, people won't lock up their guns, criminals will always find a way to obtain a gun. I do think education and systems could help diminish these variables over time.

Putting systems in place to protect our elementary/middle school kids is a no brainer.

[ironworks]

Show me a knife attack anywhere in the ballpark of one of these school shootings.



There were 22 kids killed in China on the same day with a knife.

[GregWeld]

Here ---- Read this --- it helps restore your faith in humanity.....



http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/moments-that-restored-our-faith-in-humanity-this-y

[GregWeld]

There were 22 kids killed in China on the same day with a knife.



Incorrect -- there were 23 INJURED not killed.


That is what RealCoray is arguing - is that it is the type of weapon used that made the killings so easy. I agree with him 100%. The point I'm discussing is what to do about it. My point is that laws don't protect anyone. They just give us a prosecution tool... AFTER the fact.

Todd wants protection at schools. I agree - nothing to argue there... whether it's a deterrent or not is how we implement it... one guard at a huge school isn't really much of a deterrent IMHO.... Again -- my discussion about that is -- would it just move the assailant to a different location? Say he wants to attack kids - would you just go to Toys R Us? A kids movie showing? The Santa area at the mall? A soccer game? So what can we realistically protect people from - and where?


Everyone agrees that this is an incredibly horrendous crime. Unimaginable really! It makes you sick with grief. What to do about it is another discussion entirely.

[Fluid Power]

This is a great article. Written in May of 2010. Take a second and read:

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/

It is very hard to argue with this guys logic. Just simple training for all the teachers and office staff.

Darren

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I wasn't going to turn this into a gun control discussion just due to the fact that children were killed and it makes me feel selfish to add but I can't sit here without saying something. I am not trying to take away from what happened. I do not know the circumstances that lead to the killings, I do not know how this killer got his hands on these firewarms when they should be locked up by the owner, but here is how I feel.

I don't know why people keep screaming gun control after a shooting. Actually I do know why I just don't know why people forget a few weeks later. Most weapons used in these mass killings or any crimes against humanities are stolen or obtained illegally. Gun control does nothing to control illegal activity. A president was killed, a senator was shot in the head, and nothing was done about it. The cry for gun control gets loud then gets silenced by high gas prices or another media storm. I do believe something should be done but lets look deeper.

I believe we should be looking at our societies Medical and educational situation. Also our own tendency towards violence. Look back in history at how we have introduced our own children to violence. Violent cartoons of the 30's, Cowboy's / Indians place sets, GI Joe's, Whack a mole, Mortal Combat, Call of Duty and so on.....I once thought that it would not affect a persons behavior but after seeing how my younger family members and other children behave I can't help but wonder what it does to a 10 year olds moral compass. I don't think desensitizing a child to death, killing and looking into an enemy soldiers eyes as the life leaves his body is a positive thing.

I will admit, I don't have the answers but gun control is not the answer. What shall we do, confiscate every gun ever made? Stop industries from making more?
Laws can't get strickter... Lets look at the rules that I abide to.
If I am a felon or have a metal disorder, I cannot own a firearm.
I have to pass a test, FBI background check and carry a gun card.
My guns that were purchased are registered with the government
guns are to be locked up in an approved safe when at home.
guns in transit are to be locked up.
guns outside are not to be exposed and in a locked case.
I cannot travel within 1000 yards of a school while carrying.
Cannot have ammo chambered unless I am at a gun range.

I have several guns in my locked safe, carry one daily in a locked case and I have never had the thought of using it to kill anything not threatening my livelihood or family. Its is not a weapon CACHE, its a collection.

The question came up earlier...."why have a military type weapon?"
They are not a military weapons, these are civilian sporting guns and a gun is a gun no matter what configuration. Its funny, I have had a Remington hunting rifle for years and I bought and installed a black synthetic stock. I go the the range the next week and its automaticly looked at as an assult rifle.

Again, I agree this was a tragic event and it has effected us all. I have a 17 month old and I would do what ever I had to do to keep him safe but you just never know what is going to happen, all we can do is prevent and prepare.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Indeed, but don't you think that it's a lot easier to kill 20+ people with a rapid fire high capacity gun versus a knife? Show me a knife attack anywhere in the ballpark of one of these school shootings.

Bombings are completely different in that to achieve the same effect would require a tremendous amount of work and planning, including things that could tip the police off in advance.

I see guns being valid for two reasons, hunting and self defense. I don't think you need an uzi or something for either, and I think you don't need 19+ round clips for either.

I agree with you but where does it end?

The whole round count argument means nothing. The argument should be keeping the criminals and metally damaged from doing what they do. And how do we stop creating more criminals?

The round count argument is like saying "street racing is killing people so we will limit car engines to 4 cylinders". No matter how many cylinders you have the criminals will continue to use 4 or 8. Laws only stop the law abiding.

[nicks67ca]

This is my friends family-

Six-year-old Jessica Rekos was hoping to get cowgirl boots and a cowgirl hat for Christmas. Now her family is left mourning the loss of her young life.


"Jessica loved everything about horses. She devoted her free time to watching horse movies, reading horse books, drawing horses, and writing stories about horses. We had promised her she could have her very own horse when she turned 10. She asked Santa for new cowgirl boots and a cowgirl hat. She was a creative, beautiful little girl who loved playing with her little brothers, Travis and Shane. She spent time writing in her journals, making up stories, and doing "research" on orca whales – one of her passions after seeing the movie Free Willy last year. She said her dream was to see a real orca. Thankfully her dream was realized in October when she went to SeaWorld.

Jessica was our first born. She started our family, and she was our rock. She had an answer for everything, she didn't miss a trick, and she outsmarted us every time. We called her our little CEO for the way she carefully thought out and planned everything. We can not imagine our life without her. We are mourning her loss, sharing our beautiful memories we have of her, and trying to help her brother Travis understand why he can't play with his best friend. We are devastated, and our hearts are with the other families who are grieving as we are."

[Vince@Meanstreets]

This is my friends family-

Six-year-old Jessica Rekos was hoping to get cowgirl boots and a cowgirl hat for Christmas. Now her family is left mourning the loss of her young life.


"Jessica loved everything about horses. She devoted her free time to watching horse movies, reading horse books, drawing horses, and writing stories about horses. We had promised her she could have her very own horse when she turned 10. She asked Santa for new cowgirl boots and a cowgirl hat. She was a creative, beautiful little girl who loved playing with her little brothers, Travis and Shane. She spent time writing in her journals, making up stories, and doing "research" on orca whales – one of her passions after seeing the movie Free Willy last year. She said her dream was to see a real orca. Thankfully her dream was realized in October when she went to SeaWorld.

Jessica was our first born. She started our family, and she was our rock. She had an answer for everything, she didn't miss a trick, and she outsmarted us every time. We called her our little CEO for the way she carefully thought out and planned everything. We can not imagine our life without her. We are mourning her loss, sharing our beautiful memories we have of her, and trying to help her brother Travis understand why he can't play with his best friend. We are devastated, and our hearts are with the other families who are grieving as we are."

breaks my heart nick, I broke down when I first saw the news....a young couple just learned his child was killed....the husband just dropped to his knees. I will never forget this.

[GregWeld]

I just read that Diane Feinstein wants to introduce legislation regarding "guns or multi shot magazines" etc.


I wrote to her office - even though I do not live in California - to suggest that rather than "grandstanding" -- why doesn't she work on a bill to have an armed guard at EVERY ENTRANCE to schools? In other words -- rather than just passing another useless law -- why not work to pass a law that might actually do some good?

Making laws against criminals never seems to work real well... Prohibition? Yeah that worked well.... or maybe the drug laws? That's working great for the Mexican cartels... hasn't seemed to stop the flow of drugs yet though. Last time I checked there's laws against robbing banks... I also seem to read about one daily.

[WSSix]

The biggest thing that bothers me about all these school and mass shootings is the reaction of the victims. No one fights back. I'm not expecting anyone to be a hero or know the proper way to take out someone with an assault rifle, but cowering in the corner like a sheep is not acceptable. Unfortunately, I feel people in this country have been indoctrinated to believe that government, be it a police officer or a "bold" Congressman enacting some legislation, will protect them from all that is evil. That the acceptable response when faced with danger is to do nothing but wait for the "professional" or the protector to save the day and your life. I believe punishing the victim of bullying that finally stands up to their bully to the same extent as the bully is mindless and wrong. Defending yourself should not be left to the "professionals" or the police. Teaching people that is wrong. Punishing a person for defending themselves is even worse. Thinking that evil doesn't exist or that when confronted with someone determined to harm or kill you that talking it out, as if there's simply some misunderstanding, is a proper response is foolish and leads to more deaths. Your life is your own and no one else's. It's the one thing you cannot lose. Why would you not fight for it? You certainly should never feel bad about defending it. You should soundly reject any idea or belief that says you should leave it completely in the hands of another person or group of people that swear benevolence and a rapid response time.

[glassman]

As I sit here watching the Raider game, reading this, I remember seeing armed Oakland police officers and armed Deputy's (of which I have direct family of and at) at all the games. And these games are "R" rated (don't go anymore due to this reason). And these are sports events. I think schools are WAY MORE important to protect. The innocence and vulnerability of the children. When evil and mental health cross "pollinate" we have this.

They were his moms guns, and they led to her demise as well. I remember seeing them handcuff and haul away the brother for questioning, he looked lost. After all, he just lost his mom and brother (although his brother must of been gone long ago to do this).

Unfortunately, I seriously doubt legal action will change anything, just watch tv or the video games or the news.....it goes on and on. I like what Todd said about mentoring the fatherless, it does help. Think of all of the "could of beens" if we didn't have mentors, pastors, counselers, coaches etc....

[glassman]

Trey, from what I've heard, the principal was lunging toward him when he shot her up. Hopefully that's the truth, I do believe heroism still exists, flight 95 ( if what was reported was true)

[Mkelcy]

The biggest thing that bothers me about all these school and mass shootings is the reaction of the victims. No one fights back. I'm not expecting anyone to be a hero or know the proper way to take out someone with an assault rifle, but cowering in the corner like a sheep is not acceptable. Unfortunately, I feel people in this country have been indoctrinated to believe that government, be it a police officer or a "bold" Congressman enacting some legislation, will protect them from all that is evil. That the acceptable response when faced with danger is to do nothing but wait for the "professional" or the protector to save the day and your life. I believe punishing the victim of bullying that finally stands up to their bully to the same extent as the bully is mindless and wrong. Defending yourself should not be left to the "professionals" or the police. Teaching people that is wrong. Punishing a person for defending themselves is even worse. Thinking that evil doesn't exist or that when confronted with someone determined to harm or kill you that talking it out, as if there's simply some misunderstanding, is a proper response is foolish and leads to more deaths. Your life is your own and no one else's. It's the one thing you cannot lose. Why would you not fight for it? You certainly should never feel bad about defending it. You should soundly reject any idea or belief that says you should leave it completely in the hands of another person or group of people that swear benevolence and a rapid response time.

The principal of the school ran at the gunman and tried to disarm him. She was shot and killed. She and the other teachers and staff of that school risked their lives to save the chilren put in their care. Six female (no male) staff at the school were killed, several while trying to stop the gunman. Those women were heros in the truest sense of the word.

[nicks67ca]

The principal and counselor met the gunman near the lobby. They tried to stop him. At teacher hid her class and confronted the gunman telling him they were in the gym. The students in that class lived. The Principal, Gunman, and Teacher were killed.

These people did fight back with what they knew how to.......

I think when it all comes out you will find that the police arrived faster than the gunman expected. He had hundreds of unspent rounds (and spent ones) according to the last press conference. He ended his life with a handgun he had no intentions of getting out alive. I would like to think the secretary (that denied him entry) the principle, and counselor and teacher that slowed him down contributed to giving the police enough time to arrive before he went to many more rooms.

[Vegas69]

Trey, I understand where you are going and I do agree that people need to take ownership of their lives. However, expecting women and children to defend themself against an AR15 is extremely unrealistic. I don't think it's fair to second guess the victims in such an extreme situation.

[ccracin]

My wife is a Kindergarten teacher and I have twin 8 year old daughters. Anytime I see an article or see a news story regarding this horrible tragedy, it makes me want to cry then I quickly become enraged. The loss of precious life makes me want to cry and the way the media and uniformed people react enrage me. I really like the comment of many in this thread. Todd and Greg specifically make a lot of sense.

I know for fact that around here inner city and "high risk" schools have multiple armed guards and metal detectors in use to protect students and faculty from other students. Why can't we have an armed guard at each entrance to every school? My taxes get raised everytime someone wants to implement a new math program or reading program that is the latest greatest thing or just because they got free lunch from a sales rep. I would gladly help fund actually keeping my children and wife safe.

Every American should go out and take a gun safety course and get a concealed carry permit. Then actually carry. Just like criminals will skip over a house with an alarm, they would think twice wondering if their next victim is strapped. This may not be the answer to the mentally ill, but at least you will have a better chance to defend yourself and others. Another point is let people know you carry. People will be more receptive knowing that it is "OK" to do it. I'm not saying go around brandishing your weapon. But when conversations like this come up. Speak up, and educate people. I have had a concealed permit since I was 21.

I also agree with the comments regarding these new extremely violent video games. To me there is a big difference between this and "violent" looney tunes cartoons of my childhood. That was all done in a manner that made it clear it was make believe and didn't sensationalize real world violence. I played cowboys and indians, paintball, GI Joes, and so on and have never even had the notion to shoot another human. Knowing right and wrong is the key here. It is up to the parents to teach this. You have to be involved with your kids and be a parent, NOT a friend. My parents were strict with me and I like to think that has helped me be a good parent. My Dad and I spend a lot of time together. Today as an adult he is my best friend. When I hear these people today say they don't want to drive their kids away by being too strict, it's hogwash. Do whats right and so will your kids. I could go on and on.

Things need to change with our society. Do your part! :cheers:

[intocarss]

Friday, December 14, 2012Thinking the Unthinkable

Michael holding a butterfly
In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.



“I can wear these pants,” he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.


“They are navy blue,” I told him. “Your school’s dress code says black or khaki pants only.”


“They told me I could wear these,” he insisted. “You’re a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!”


“You can’t wear whatever pants you want to,” I said, my tone affable, reasonable. “And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school.”


I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.


A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.


That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn’t have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.


We still don’t know what’s wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.


At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he’s in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He’s in a good mood most of the time. But when he’s not, watch out. And it’s impossible to predict what will set him off.


Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district’s most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can’t function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.


The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, “Look, Mom, I’m really sorry. Can I have video games back today?”


“No way,” I told him. “You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly.”


His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. “I’m going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself.”


That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.


“Where are you taking me?” he said, suddenly worried. “Where are we going?”


“You know where we are going,” I replied.


“No! You can’t do that to me! You’re sending me to hell! You’re sending me straight to hell!”


I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. “Call the police,” I said. “Hurry.”


Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn’t escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I’m still stronger than he is, but I won’t be for much longer.


The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork—“Were there any difficulties with....at what age did your child....were there any problems with...has your child ever experienced...does your child have....”


At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.


For days, my son insisted that I was lying—that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, “I hate you. And I’m going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here.”


By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I’ve heard those promises for years. I don’t believe them anymore.


On the intake form, under the question, “What are your expectations for treatment?” I wrote, “I need help.”


And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.


I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am James Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.


According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map). Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.


When I asked my son’s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail,” he said. “That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges.”


I don’t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael’s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population. (http://www.hrw.org/news/2006/09/05/us-number-mentally-ill-prisons-quadrupled)


With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail, and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011 (http://www.npr.org/2011/09/04/140167676/nations-jails-struggle-with-mentally-ill-prisoners)


No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”


I agree that something must be done. It’s time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That’s the only way our nation can ever truly heal.


God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.
Anarchist Soccer Mom at 10:07 PM

[Fluid Power]

It boils down to training, train the teachers and office staff for response in this type of situation.

"Police officers must train and drill with teachers, not only so responding officers are intimately familiar with the facilities, but so that teachers know what they can do in the event of an attack."


"If the school administrators at Columbine had spent a fraction of the money they’d spent preparing for fire — if the teachers there had spent a fraction of the time they spent preparing for fire — doing lockdown drills and talking with local law enforcers about the violent dangers they face, the outcome that day may have been different."

This is probably a good starting point at any school.

Darren

[WSSix]

I was referring to all of the shootings that have occurred not just this one. I'm glad to hear people fought back in this instance. I've been avoiding it simply because I'm tired of reading about crap like this so I don't know much beyond what's in headlines. However, if you read about the Virginia shootings and Columbine you'll find the same thing, most people did nothing to fight back. Those were college students. Columbine was teenagers. I certainly wouldn't expect the children in this instance to put up a fight. They were much too young. Too many instances in which people do nothing to defend themselves, I believe, points to a break down in a belief system. I believe that system has created a society that's subdued in the face of life threatening danger because it's been taught to believe someone else will save you or, worse, that defending yourself is wrong. That's what I was saying. Maybe I wrote it more concisely this time.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Who is to say they didn't fight back or try Trey? Most of the witnesses are most likely dead. It would take co ordination and good training to take a weapon from an unstable person.
The first thing they tell you in an armed situation is to stay calm and quiet or try to reason if confronted. Hero's get killed or get others in real life.
These are common citizens, teachers, librarians not hardened combat tested warriors. Most will panic at the sight of a gun.

Instead of armed guards and solidiers posted infront of schools they should have secret security like we do on planes. The possibility of an armed US marshal on your plane will usually deter violent action. Locking down the school at the first sign of a bad situation may have saved more lives.



The biggest thing that bothers me about all these school and mass shootings is the reaction of the victims. No one fights back. I'm not expecting anyone to be a hero or know the proper way to take out someone with an assault rifle, but cowering in the corner like a sheep is not acceptable. Unfortunately, I feel people in this country have been indoctrinated to believe that government, be it a police officer or a "bold" Congressman enacting some legislation, will protect them from all that is evil. That the acceptable response when faced with danger is to do nothing but wait for the "professional" or the protector to save the day and your life. I believe punishing the victim of bullying that finally stands up to their bully to the same extent as the bully is mindless and wrong. Defending yourself should not be left to the "professionals" or the police. Teaching people that is wrong. Punishing a person for defending themselves is even worse. Thinking that evil doesn't exist or that when confronted with someone determined to harm or kill you that talking it out, as if there's simply some misunderstanding, is a proper response is foolish and leads to more deaths. Your life is your own and no one else's. It's the one thing you cannot lose. Why would you not fight for it? You certainly should never feel bad about defending it. You should soundly reject any idea or belief that says you should leave it completely in the hands of another person or group of people that swear benevolence and a rapid response time.

[GregWeld]

Trey ---

I think that's why many here are calling for more "hardening" of these soft targets. Schools and malls and theaters (to name the most recent soft spots) are easy targets for attackers... simply because they're assured that nobody is going to fight back.

I'm not sure if staffing every school door with an armed guard would end all school attacks - but it would probably help. My sense is though - that the attack would simply occur somewhere else. I just find it hard to believe in my heart of hearts that we can protect everyone everywhere with more laws and more guns. Should we have an armed guard on every bus? At every mall entrance - at every movie entrance...

I spent 4 hours at a class on Saturday - watching video of various scenarios of armed robbery etc -- and I can tell you that even if there was an armed guard on station - most of the time he would not have been able to have a clean shot without being a perfect marksman. There's so much movement - the attacker already has a gun - he's not a sitting duck - and there's so many other people "around". It's easy to "think" you'd just draw and fire - but that's just not reality. One round misses and goes through the wall into a classroom and then what?

You know people still choose to rob armored cars? Go figure...

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I did too, I was beat down often by an alcoholic father. Tough love.

I like to believe I and you are the lucky ones that made it out unscathed but what about the 10% that don't. Different people react to negative inputs. All it takes is a moment of weakness and what one does with that feeling.

Making the school system turn into a prison will be a hard sell. You know how bean counters look at life. The look at percentages not what ifs.

My wife is a Kindergarten teacher and I have twin 8 year old daughters. Anytime I see an article or see a news story regarding this horrible tragedy, it makes me want to cry then I quickly become enraged. The loss of precious life makes me want to cry and the way the media and uniformed people react enrage me. I really like the comment of many in this thread. Todd and Greg specifically make a lot of sense.

I know for fact that around here inner city and "high risk" schools have multiple armed guards and metal detectors in use to protect students and faculty from other students. Why can't we have an armed guard at each entrance to every school? My taxes get raised everytime someone wants to implement a new math program or reading program that is the latest greatest thing or just because they got free lunch from a sales rep. I would gladly help fund actually keeping my children and wife safe.

Every American should go out and take a gun safety course and get a concealed carry permit. Then actually carry. Just like criminals will skip over a house with an alarm, they would think twice wondering if their next victim is strapped. This may not be the answer to the mentally ill, but at least you will have a better chance to defend yourself and others. Another point is let people know you carry. People will be more receptive knowing that it is "OK" to do it. I'm not saying go around brandishing your weapon. But when conversations like this come up. Speak up, and educate people. I have had a concealed permit since I was 21.

I also agree with the comments regarding these new extremely violent video games. To me there is a big difference between this and "violent" looney tunes cartoons of my childhood. That was all done in a manner that made it clear it was make believe and didn't sensationalize real world violence. I played cowboys and indians, paintball, GI Joes, and so on and have never even had the notion to shoot another human. Knowing right and wrong is the key here. It is up to the parents to teach this. You have to be involved with your kids and be a parent, NOT a friend. My parents were strict with me and I like to think that has helped me be a good parent. My Dad and I spend a lot of time together. Today as an adult he is my best friend. When I hear these people today say they don't want to drive their kids away by being too strict, it's hogwash. Do whats right and so will your kids. I could go on and on.

Things need to change with our society. Do your part! :cheers:

[GregWeld]

The first thing they tell you in an armed situation is to stay calm and quiet or try to reason if confronted. Hero's get killed or get others in real life.

In the class I took on Saturday -- we discussed the "Nike defense" -- as in -- even if you're armed -- run -- The "preclusion rule" says to stay out of the fight if at all possible.

Of course - we weren't discussing a shooting at a school and nobody in their right mind wouldn't try to prevent that "somehow".

[WSSix]

I'm not sure if staffing every school door with an armed guard would end all school attacks - but it would probably help. My sense is though - that the attack would simply occur somewhere else. I just find it hard to believe in my heart of hearts that we can protect everyone everywhere with more laws and more guns. Should we have an armed guard on every bus? At every mall entrance - at every movie entrance...



That's exactly why I think people need to have it instilled in them that their life is in their hands and fighting for it is perfectly fine. Otherwise, we're headed for a police state that won't be any safer.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

In the class I took on Saturday -- we discussed the "Nike defense" -- as in -- even if you're armed -- run -- The "preclusion rule" says to stay out of the fight if at all possible.

Of course - we weren't discussing a shooting at a school and nobody in their right mind wouldn't try to prevent that "somehow".

Correct, back down, take cover, regroup and assess the risk. Hate to shoot a potential hero with a legal conceal carry license or an off duty.

[WSSix]

Who is to say they didn't fight back or try Trey? Most of the witnesses are most likely dead. It would take co ordination and good training to take a weapon from an unstable person.
The first thing they tell you in an armed situation is to stay calm and quiet or try to reason if confronted. Hero's get killed or get others in real life.
These are common citizens, teachers, librarians not hardened combat tested warriors. Most will panic at the sight of a gun.



Again, I'm not referring to this instance explicitly. Reasoning with a person who clearly has massacre on their mind, as evidenced by these random attackers just simply starting to shoot people as compared to using a gun as a tool to have power over you to rob you, went out the window when the gun started firing. You're no longer being reasonable to believe you can reason with that person.

Flight 93 is a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make. Those people knew they were probably going to die regardless of whatever the terrorist told them, which I have no idea what they were told. Instead of sitting there with the attitude of someone will save us, they got up and did something. Maybe they would have been triumphant. Maybe they would have all died no matter what they did. The difference is they tried and fought for the one thing they could not lose. I don't see the whole of society having that same attitude and I think it's actually being discouraged and punished in many respects. I believe that's wrong.

[Vegas69]

The major difference I see is that an Elementary school is a sitting duck in our society. 600 kids, 60-100 staff(mostly women) that have absolutely 0 protection. One of these maniacs could really have a field day well beyond what happened on Friday.

In a mall setting, movie theatre, and most public places, there is a reasonable chance of a citizen carrying, an off duty police officer, security guard close,etc..

You can't prevent them all and they will find a place, our schools just can't be an option without some type of lethal force in place.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Sure, its easy to plan and say how we would react in a deadly situation is but the honest truth is, how we react and how we should have reacted are two different things. People freeze, become confussed by either the comotion, just fear stricken or are just in pure denile of what is going on before them.

The flight 93 example you state is valid but think of it this way. How do we really know what happened. We are given ideas of that situation from what the government wants us to believe by a black box and a few cell phones that recorded sounds. Again spoon fed to us by the media. Unfortunately the true witnesses are no longer alive. For all we know maybe the plane would not have crashed or the military shot it down considering its flight path. No one will ever know how people reacted in a grave situation. I would love to believe they acted heroically but I can't be certain. No one can.

Im not saying I am right or you are wrong, im just saying think of all options and people especially in groups do not react well or co ordinated. Is there such thing as dying well.


Again, I'm not referring to this instance explicitly. Reasoning with a person who clearly has massacre on their mind, as evidenced by these random attackers just simply starting to shoot people as compared to using a gun as a tool to have power over you to rob you, went out the window when the gun started firing. You're no longer being reasonable to believe you can reason with that person.

Flight 93 is a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make. Those people knew they were probably going to die regardless of whatever the terrorist told them, which I have no idea what they were told. Instead of sitting there with the attitude of someone will save us, they got up and did something. Maybe they would have been triumphant. Maybe they would have all died no matter what they did. The difference is they tried and fought for the one thing they could not lose. I don't see the whole of society having that same attitude and I think it's actually being discouraged and punished in many respects. I believe that's wrong.

[WSSix]

Sure, its easy to plan and say how we would react in a deadly situation is but the honest truth is, how we react and how we should have reacted are two different things. People freeze, become confussed by either the comotion, just fear stricken or are just in pure denile of what is going on before them.

The flight 93 example you state is valid but think of it this way. How do we really know what happened. We are given ideas of that situation from what the government wants us to believe by a black box and a few cell phones that recorded sounds. Again spoon fed to us by the media. Unfortunately the true witnesses are no longer alive. For all we know maybe the plane would not have crashed or the military shot it down considering its flight path. No one will ever know how people reacted in a grave situation. I would love to believe they acted heroically but I can't be certain. No one can.

Im not saying I am right or you are wrong, im just saying think of all options and people especially in groups do not react well or co ordinated. Is there such thing as dying well.

No, I don't believe there is such a thing as dying well in a situation like this.

You're correct that we don't know what happened completely in any of these situations. I'm just making general observations based on what I've learned. My comments are on the trends seen in these terrible situations which I believe are a symptom of a failed belief system. Maybe my reactions and beliefs are different than all those involved. I'm just tired of hearing about these tragedies. I truly believe the best way to counter them is to instill in people the belief that they must make sure they do everything they can to preserve their life, and that fighting for your life is better than not even if the outcome is the same. I'm more angry than sad in response to these tragedies.

A side note to this is the Holocaust. Millions of people where systematically exterminated over the course of years. They lined up peacefully and obediently went to their deaths. Why did they not fight back? Sure, the Nazis had the guns. There were way more Jews and other prisoners in the camps than guards though. They could have done more than go quietly to their deaths. The fact that they didn't boggles my mind. I see similar responses or lack there of in these current events.

[Shmoov69]

Those women were heros in the truest sense of the word.
AMEN!! And to elaborate even more, I'd say that even "if" these ladies were hiding in a corner, they are STILL heroes to me...they took the bullets from the nutjob.

Typing this as I watch the game tonight and a commercial for the game "Hitman-Absolution" comes on...... A HUGE problem with the younger generation IMO. Total and complete "numbness" for life and even reality for that matter. Is it "the" problem, no but it is a big part of the pie I think. "THE" problem is that the moral compass of society has lost it's magnetism..... We are a "feel good" society and there isn't much of an absolute right and wrong on a lot of things, which just adds to the problem.

[IMPALA MAN]

I don't know the answer but something has to change. Same day, 47 guns, and a man that threatened to kill as many people as he could at an elementary school in northern Indiana. See the link. http://news.yahoo.com/ind-man-47-guns-arrested-school-threat-164928349.html

[Vegas69]

BuLgO4wo4xI

[ccracin]

I did too, I was beat down often by an alcoholic father. Tough love.

I like to believe I and you are the lucky ones that made it out unscathed but what about the 10% that don't. Different people react to negative inputs. All it takes is a moment of weakness and what one does with that feeling.

Making the school system turn into a prison will be a hard sell. You know how bean counters look at life. The look at percentages not what ifs.

Vince,

I'm sorry to hear about your situation, but glad you came out of it a better person. Mine however was not the same. What I meant was my parents were strict in that they told me what was right and wrong in their view and were unwavering in that position. Unlike what I see alot of today, when parents are acting more like friends and equals to their kids. As soon as the child has an issue in school for example, the teacher is automatically a problem and has it in for the child. When I got a bad report from school, I was in for it. However, my parents never struck me other than a bare hand to the bottom here and there. My Dad was a carpenter. He made a nice 3/4" plywood paddle and painted it up with my name on it. I was never struck with that paddle, but I knew when I saw it I messed up. Just the thought of being spanked with it was enough. Today, that would be considered abuse. I don't get it. There are folks around our area that have parties for teens with alcohol. They make the statement that they are going to do it anyway, they might as well know where they are and make sure they are safe. Really? To me there's a time to be a parent and a time to be a friend. Others allow teenage girls to have sleepover parties that include guys. Really? WTF To me, this is setting up generations of poor decisions. Some of this should be common sense.

There will always be mental illness and that is the tough problem to figure out. But to me the rest is about teaching children good principles and values as well as basic right and wrong. It's like anything else, proper knowledge and education helps you handle those negative inputs properly.

I can only hope that my wife and I are half the parents mine have been to me. If we are, I am confident we will have a fighting chance with our daughters as they grow up.

I also agree about making schools resemble prison security, but it might be necessary if only in the short term.

Just as a quick note as well. My wife is the homeroom Mom for my daughters 3rd grade class. This week is their class Christmas party. She just got an email from teacher outlining all the new procedures they will have to follow to be permitted in the school. So at least our district is taking these events to heart. She did say it was tough putting them on the bus this morning.

[RussMurco]

If it's the weapons etc that do all these crazy atrocities... We should have a mass murder like this every single day. Why? Think about all the "ex" and current, Navy Seals... Marines... Army Special Ops guys etc that our government has trained year after year. These are some of the most lethal human beings on the planet - maybe in the universe... Personally I'd feel the safest on a bus full of them... over a bus with normal people and one "street urchin"...

As a former Marine NBC Warfare officer I appreciate the thoughts! :)

I responded to the other thread, "Suggestions for a home defense weapon" about the same time this event was hitting the news Friday. I will be quite candid and say that when I am out in public I scan everyone, I sit in restaurants so that I can see all those around me, and I feel I have become so used to it that it is affecting my quality of life.
I own a Sig P226, a Baretta FS92, a Colt AR15, and a few other weapons. These are the ones I mastered in the Marines, I am completely comfortable using them and pretty damn proficient with them.
That said I wish I never felt the need for them. I wish I never had to worry about being confronted by another with a gun. I wish I could feel the police would be there to protect my family. I hope I never witness carnage here like what is found on a battlefield, ever. The reality is, though, there is a chance that I will need to draw against someone as a civilian. A small chance, but a chance enough to make me carry (which I hate doing).
This country doesn't have a gun problem, we have a spiritual decay problem that has been going on for decades. The decimation of families, abortions (not starting a fight, just pointing out how cheap life has become), the dumbing-down of education, the hollowness that comes with celebrity worship, and the focus on exterior appearances have all contributed to the decay. Hollywood has a fixation on the young, the people with the least life experience and therefore the least wisdom. Even the music industry is affected, imagine the stars of the 60' & 70's being put through the "image-conscience, camera-friendly" world of todays music industry.
There is no depth in our society today, no wisdom espoused to a greater audience, no appreciation for (or knowledge of) our history and that of the world. I'm a 100% capitalist but our rampant consumerism has pushed artisans and craftsmen to the side, so little we make is of value anymore.
We have "9-11 truthers" and other people so gullible it's beyond my comprehension.
I look at my boys, 16 & 18, and I weep at the thought of the world they may end up living in. I've taught them what they need to be self-sufficient, to protect themselves, and taught them the lessons of history. I hope it serves them well when I'm not around any longer.
I also weep when I see this sort of event unfold. I avoid watching the news reporters and all their "experts" trying to "understand" what has happened, as if they could, while making the nutcase a celebrity in the process.
To be honest, I also feel an enormous amount of frustration when something like this happens and there is nobody like myself there to intervene. I have begun carrying in those "gun-free" zones as it seems this is where the shootings are most likely going to happen. Nothing is more tempting to a coward than not being a target himself.
Should I ever be present when one of these horror-events happen I will make certain that the tax-dollars spent to train me will not have been spent in vain. I'm not itching to start a fire-fight but have no problem finishing one. In the mean-time I will continue to train those in my life on how to protect themselves and others should they ever need too.
May God bless the vicitims of this, and other shootings, and may God have mercy on us all...

[NOPANTS68]

AMEN!! And to elaborate even more, I'd say that even "if" these ladies were hiding in a corner, they are STILL heroes to me...they took the bullets from the nutjob.

Typing this as I watch the game tonight and a commercial for the game "Hitman-Absolution" comes on...... A HUGE problem with the younger generation IMO. Total and complete "numbness" for life and even reality for that matter. Is it "the" problem, no but it is a big part of the pie I think. "THE" problem is that the moral compass of society has lost it's magnetism..... We are a "feel good" society and there isn't much of an absolute right and wrong on a lot of things, which just adds to the problem.

I've been thinking similar thoughts with regards to these shootings. Looking back at this horrific incident, the movie theater shooting earlier this year, and then all of the strange college campus killings we've had over the last 5 years and the common demoniator is age. You don't find any 65 year old people commiting these murders, but rather young men, sub 30, typically acting alone. The Columbine shootings were ony different in that there were two young men acting out what they may have seen thousands of times on screen. Americans are becoming numb to these types of concepts at an accelerating rate. Our society injects it forcefully into our youth without much restraint. In the 50s it may have been a cap gun for a 7 year old's birthday, but today it's Black Ops on Xbox which leaves little to the imagination with regards to death. Militaries of the 21st century thrive on these types of electronic scenarios to remove the emotion from war. Drone pilots can reduce a village to dust, then step outside to take a smoke break. I live next to one and it's a weird conversation around the BBQ.

For 99.999% of us these themes are a controlable, non-issue. For folks who can't process life within it's normal boundaries, this becomes a lit fuse. It's a tragic reality we all live with and there's no going back on it now. I don't know what the answer may be but I'm sure it's gotta strat with education and parenting.

[GregWeld]

Just saw this in the paper regarding the Morgan Freeman "rant"....


Many people -- including celebrities -- have spoken out on the horrific tragedy that struck Newtown, Conn., on Friday, when a 20-year-old gunman opened fire and killed 26 people, including 20 children, at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
However, Morgan Freeman is not one of those people. The actor has not released a comment on the incident that took place a few days ago, despite numerous stories reporting otherwise.



The lengthy quote attributed to Freeman is indeed a hoax.

[intocarss]

I read that too Greg. It's still a good read

[GregWeld]

Here's something the NATIONAL NEWS didn't carry regarding the recent shooting at the Portland Oregon area mall....




iD52IxplEoM

[GregWeld]

I read that too Greg. It's still a good read



TOTALLY AGREE!

[nicks67ca]

itX1AI8Z-nM&list

[Sieg]

Just received this email from the school our kids attend:

Dear Briggs Parents,

Our hearts go out to the families and community of Newtown, Connecticut. Any news like this is deeply saddening, and an event of this magnitude is especially horrifying.

We know that at a time like this, many parents want to know about the school safety and security measures we have in place.

• Safety training & planning: The Springfield School District has an emergency procedure plan that schools practice regularly. We train staff to handle the demands of emergencies, and all schools drill regularly for emergency responses for lockdowns, earthquakes, evacuations and more. Staff and students handle emergencies well when they have practiced what to do.

• Strong relationship with police: Through the School Resource Officers program, we have two police officers working full-time in our schools. Additional patrol officers can respond very quickly to a emergency situation. The school district and Springfield Police work together on all areas of emergency response, including making the best decisions together for student safety.

• Fast, clear communications: During an emergency, the district works with police and school staff to get accurate information about the situation and share it with parents as quickly as possible. We use email, cell phones, websites and other communication to notify parents, students and media with prompt and accurate information. It is critical that parents provide the school with complete and accurate contact information, so we can reach you if there is ever an emergency.

• Continuous improvement: While safety measures already are in place in our schools, we are committed to continuing to find ways to improve. The district is conducting safety assessments at every school, thoroughly reviewing physical security measures and safety procedures to ensure that our school buildings are as safe and secure as we can make them.

Our thoughts are with the families who lives have been forever changed by this devastating event. We know it may have an impact on your family as well. You may find helpful the following suggestions for talking with your children about this tragedy.

-------------------------------

My query back to the school:

Thanks for the info. Hopefully these officers are armed and proficient. In my opinion (and the FBI’s profilers) Gun Free Zones are soft and desirable targets. Due to the saturation of weapons in the US in the interim of any form of effective gun control you can only fight fire with fire as these offenders are not going to comply to gun control laws. A fact in most shooter events is - when seconds count the police are only minutes away.

[GregWeld]

While it may seem like a "crazy" idea --- I wonder if it's not time to seek volunteers at all schools to be "safety officers"... and where at least two classrooms in the school have a safe with various items capable of stopping an attack. With the volunteer teachers/staff receiving very serious training and receiving extra pay etc for this "service".

These safes would have auto dialing to local precinct - so that all one had to do was to open the safe to alert authorities of an attack.

Those classrooms should be monitored with cameras and that classroom should also be able to have a camera view of the entire school room by room and hallways etc. So that the "safety officer" would be able to have an idea what they were up against -- and where the attacker(s) are.

In the meantime - none of the children would have to know or see the safe or any "armed guards" -- put the safe behind a paneled wall/corkboard etc. Directly behind the teachers desk.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Budget constraints, hazard pay and just the insurance liability would be astronomical. Just because a person would volunteer doesn't mean a family member would not sue if that person was killed.

I read today that the school was very secure. One would have to show ID and get buzzed in to be where the shooter was. No amount of armed guards would have stopped this. If one was to shoot his way in then you would need volunteer targets plain and simple.

While it may seem like a "crazy" idea --- I wonder if it's not time to seek volunteers at all schools to be "safety officers"... and where at least two classrooms in the school have a safe with various items capable of stopping an attack. With the volunteer teachers/staff receiving very serious training and receiving extra pay etc for this "service".

These safes would have auto dialing to local precinct - so that all one had to do was to open the safe to alert authorities of an attack.

Those classrooms should be monitored with cameras and that classroom should also be able to have a camera view of the entire school room by room and hallways etc. So that the "safety officer" would be able to have an idea what they were up against -- and where the attacker(s) are.

In the meantime - none of the children would have to know or see the safe or any "armed guards" -- put the safe behind a paneled wall/corkboard etc. Directly behind the teachers desk.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

could not have said it better. The Pres has a big problem on his hands but where to start.

As a former Marine NBC Warfare officer I appreciate the thoughts! :)

I responded to the other thread, "Suggestions for a home defense weapon" about the same time this event was hitting the news Friday. I will be quite candid and say that when I am out in public I scan everyone, I sit in restaurants so that I can see all those around me, and I feel I have become so used to it that it is affecting my quality of life.
I own a Sig P226, a Baretta FS92, a Colt AR15, and a few other weapons. These are the ones I mastered in the Marines, I am completely comfortable using them and pretty damn proficient with them.
That said I wish I never felt the need for them. I wish I never had to worry about being confronted by another with a gun. I wish I could feel the police would be there to protect my family. I hope I never witness carnage here like what is found on a battlefield, ever. The reality is, though, there is a chance that I will need to draw against someone as a civilian. A small chance, but a chance enough to make me carry (which I hate doing).
This country doesn't have a gun problem, we have a spiritual decay problem that has been going on for decades. The decimation of families, abortions (not starting a fight, just pointing out how cheap life has become), the dumbing-down of education, the hollowness that comes with celebrity worship, and the focus on exterior appearances have all contributed to the decay. Hollywood has a fixation on the young, the people with the least life experience and therefore the least wisdom. Even the music industry is affected, imagine the stars of the 60' & 70's being put through the "image-conscience, camera-friendly" world of todays music industry.
There is no depth in our society today, no wisdom espoused to a greater audience, no appreciation for (or knowledge of) our history and that of the world. I'm a 100% capitalist but our rampant consumerism has pushed artisans and craftsmen to the side, so little we make is of value anymore.
We have "9-11 truthers" and other people so gullible it's beyond my comprehension.
I look at my boys, 16 & 18, and I weep at the thought of the world they may end up living in. I've taught them what they need to be self-sufficient, to protect themselves, and taught them the lessons of history. I hope it serves them well when I'm not around any longer.
I also weep when I see this sort of event unfold. I avoid watching the news reporters and all their "experts" trying to "understand" what has happened, as if they could, while making the nutcase a celebrity in the process.
To be honest, I also feel an enormous amount of frustration when something like this happens and there is nobody like myself there to intervene. I have begun carrying in those "gun-free" zones as it seems this is where the shootings are most likely going to happen. Nothing is more tempting to a coward than not being a target himself.
Should I ever be present when one of these horror-events happen I will make certain that the tax-dollars spent to train me will not have been spent in vain. I'm not itching to start a fire-fight but have no problem finishing one. In the mean-time I will continue to train those in my life on how to protect themselves and others should they ever need too.
May God bless the vicitims of this, and other shootings, and may God have mercy on us all...

[Sieg]

could not have said it better. The Pres has a big problem on his hands but where to start.
+1

Ravenworks - Thank you Sir. :hail:

[intocarss]

As a former Marine NBC Warfare officer I appreciate the thoughts! :)

I responded to the other thread, "Suggestions for a home defense weapon" about the same time this event was hitting the news Friday. I will be quite candid and say that when I am out in public I scan everyone, I sit in restaurants so that I can see all those around me, and I feel I have become so used to it that it is affecting my quality of life.
I own a Sig P226, a Baretta FS92, a Colt AR15, and a few other weapons. These are the ones I mastered in the Marines, I am completely comfortable using them and pretty damn proficient with them.
That said I wish I never felt the need for them. I wish I never had to worry about being confronted by another with a gun. I wish I could feel the police would be there to protect my family. I hope I never witness carnage here like what is found on a battlefield, ever. The reality is, though, there is a chance that I will need to draw against someone as a civilian. A small chance, but a chance enough to make me carry (which I hate doing).
This country doesn't have a gun problem, we have a spiritual decay problem that has been going on for decades. The decimation of families, abortions (not starting a fight, just pointing out how cheap life has become), the dumbing-down of education, the hollowness that comes with celebrity worship, and the focus on exterior appearances have all contributed to the decay. Hollywood has a fixation on the young, the people with the least life experience and therefore the least wisdom. Even the music industry is affected, imagine the stars of the 60' & 70's being put through the "image-conscience, camera-friendly" world of todays music industry.
There is no depth in our society today, no wisdom espoused to a greater audience, no appreciation for (or knowledge of) our history and that of the world. I'm a 100% capitalist but our rampant consumerism has pushed artisans and craftsmen to the side, so little we make is of value anymore.
We have "9-11 truthers" and other people so gullible it's beyond my comprehension.
I look at my boys, 16 & 18, and I weep at the thought of the world they may end up living in. I've taught them what they need to be self-sufficient, to protect themselves, and taught them the lessons of history. I hope it serves them well when I'm not around any longer.
I also weep when I see this sort of event unfold. I avoid watching the news reporters and all their "experts" trying to "understand" what has happened, as if they could, while making the nutcase a celebrity in the process.
To be honest, I also feel an enormous amount of frustration when something like this happens and there is nobody like myself there to intervene. I have begun carrying in those "gun-free" zones as it seems this is where the shootings are most likely going to happen. Nothing is more tempting to a coward than not being a target himself.
Should I ever be present when one of these horror-events happen I will make certain that the tax-dollars spent to train me will not have been spent in vain. I'm not itching to start a fire-fight but have no problem finishing one. In the mean-time I will continue to train those in my life on how to protect themselves and others should they ever need too.
May God bless the vicitims of this, and other shootings, and may God have mercy on us all... 110% and Thank you

[Bryan O]

I don't get it, and I never will.

If you don't get it and "never will" you don't want to get it. You can find "it" in the Federalist Papers.

btw, nothing mentioned therein about one's right to hunt.

[cmraman]

While the gun debate heats up. There is another debate that is closer to my heart. The shooter was recognized as having Aspergers, a form of Autism. He also had some mental illness. I'm a father of 2 Autistic boys and have a close friend with a Highschool son with Aspergers. She is dealing with hatred already. I'm afraid for my kids as well. Please don't judge these children on an isolated event. My boys are very innocent and loving. My friend's son is a very good kid as well. Here is a statement from the Autism Society of Wisconsin's Facebook page....

On Friday, 27 people in Connecticut lost their life through the acts of a single person. These people were children, teachers, husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters. Today, their families are experiencing grief that cannot be described. Individuals impacted by Friday’s tragic shooting are in the hearts, thoughts and prayers throughout the Autism Society network.

Many national media outlets are reporting that the shooter was autistic. While as of yet, this has not been officially documented, many newspapers and television outlets are stating that the individual who shot the children and teachers was autistic. And, in such reports, there is an implication that autism might have had an impact on the person's mindset in leading to the shootings.

There is absolutely no evidence or any reliable research that suggests a linkage between autism and planned violence. To imply or suggest, as some are doing, that some linkage exists is wrong and harmful to the over 1.5 million law abiding, non-violent and wonderful individuals who live with autism each and every day. Stereotyping an entire group of individuals because of the actions of one is something is wrong and can't be accepted.

We ask that people not judge any autistic person based on what is being said about the killer of the innocent children and teachers. Rather, we ask that we continue to put our nation's attention on being there for the children and teachers who were killed on Friday.

[Bryan O]

I see guns being valid for two reasons, hunting and self defense. I don't think you need an uzi or something for either, and I think you don't need 19+ round clips for either.

I disagree. Semi-auto "assault weapons" are highly effective self defense tools. Think riots.

[glassman]

Ravenworks, well said. Thank you for your service and I agree with everything u said.

I am a father of three, all great kids, 22, 20, 18. We have high standards and high morals but not hard with discipline (we were both "belted/whipped). But discipline is needed, just not abuse.

My oldest is a student in a doctorate program, wants to be an adolescent psychologist, there will be plenty of work for him as I see society "regressing forward"....

[GregWeld]

I don't want to turn this tragic thread into a gun discussion....


But my feeling is that our founding fathers wanted the citizenry to have guns for defense - defense against tyranny - defense against their own government gone wild (tyranny) - defense against a militia turned against it's citizenry.

The citizenry can't match muskets or Winchester 94's against todays high tech weaponry... Either from "friend" or foe... and while we can single out the "need" for these weapons as being the problem... I think the citizenry would have a far different thought -- if, or when, terrorists use a dirty bomb... or some other truly massive destructive device(s).

This is where people are torn -- because we understand that it's the weapons in the hands of ordinary citizens that keep the country "safe" -- yet at the same time it's also these weapons that are being used to create such devastating carnage and tragedy. I'm not sure how we balance these but that's where we probably need to get to.

[Sieg]

While the gun debate heats up. There is another debate that is closer to my heart. The shooter was recognized as having Aspergers, a form of Autism. He also had some mental illness. I'm a father of 2 Autistic boys and have a close friend with a Highschool son with Aspergers. She is dealing with hatred already. I'm afraid for my kids as well. Please don't judge these children on an isolated event. My boys are very innocent and loving. My friend's son is a very good kid as well. Here is a statement from the Autism Society of Wisconsin's Facebook page....

On Friday, 27 people in Connecticut lost their life through the acts of a single person. These people were children, teachers, husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters. Today, their families are experiencing grief that cannot be described. Individuals impacted by Friday’s tragic shooting are in the hearts, thoughts and prayers throughout the Autism Society network.

Many national media outlets are reporting that the shooter was autistic. While as of yet, this has not been officially documented, many newspapers and television outlets are stating that the individual who shot the children and teachers was autistic. And, in such reports, there is an implication that autism might have had an impact on the person's mindset in leading to the shootings.

There is absolutely no evidence or any reliable research that suggests a linkage between autism and planned violence. To imply or suggest, as some are doing, that some linkage exists is wrong and harmful to the over 1.5 million law abiding, non-violent and wonderful individuals who live with autism each and every day. Stereotyping an entire group of individuals because of the actions of one is something is wrong and can't be accepted.

We ask that people not judge any autistic person based on what is being said about the killer of the innocent children and teachers. Rather, we ask that we continue to put our nation's attention on being there for the children and teachers who were killed on Friday.
We have a 14 year old son that displays many traits common with Aspergers (soon to be officially referenced as ASD - Autism Spectrum Disorder), while he's not been officially diagnosed symptoms are there. I understand your concerns, due to the vast amount of unknown's this could easily get blown out of proportion. Not to downplay the public's or our own concerns of how it may relate to violence of this nature. The mind is a complex arena.

I did noticed at school today indifferent body language from a teacher that could have been a result of this news........can't blame them for being concerned.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I don't want to turn this tragic thread into a gun discussion....


But my feeling is that our founding fathers wanted the citizenry to have guns for defense - defense against tyranny - defense against their own government gone wild (tyranny) - defense against a militia turned against it's citizenry.

The citizenry can't match muskets or Winchester 94's against todays high tech weaponry... Either from "friend" or foe... and while we can single out the "need" for these weapons as being the problem... I think the citizenry would have a far different thought -- if, or when, terrorists use a dirty bomb... or some other truly massive destructive device(s).

This is where people are torn -- because we understand that it's the weapons in the hands of ordinary citizens that keep the country "safe" -- yet at the same time it's also these weapons that are being used to create such devastating carnage and tragedy. I'm not sure how we balance these but that's where we probably need to get to.

Great thoughts Greg and I think its too late,
Just a few of my thoughts.
Maybe in some states it is TOO easy to buy them. I will admit they probably should tighten the noose there.
Most guns are in hands that by law are not allowed to have them or people that do not respect them.
During the first Obama presidential run gun sales went through the roof. It will most likely be the same in the coming months.

My problem with the gun bans.

They send money, energy and effort in the wrong direction. Spending money towards a gun ban bill is big money. Put it towards the real problem.

Drunk driving we fix the sickness. We don't ban the vessel.

There is no way gun control advocates will win. They may make it inconvienient but never a true victiory. Try a search on how much the NRA spends in political contributions. Now look to see how much money is raised for the fight with the anti gun contributers.
The devotion for the sides are unbalance also. Gun control advocacy is strong during times where guns are used in a crime. Then slowly dies out a few weeks later. Pro gun people will fight till the bitter end.

Gun buy back is high all over the country, but look to what is being returned. Large amount of turn in guns are pre 55 and probably just purchased a few days earlier from the local Big 5 for under a hundred bucks. I like this cause the people turning in these guys probably do not respect them in the first place. Guns not in safes and stored under the living room coffee table might as well be sent to the FBI's Mexican relief program.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I disagree. Semi-auto "assault weapons" are highly effective self defense tools. Think riots.

and the zombie apocolyps

[Shmoov69]

As a former Marine NBC Warfare officer I appreciate the thoughts! :)

This country doesn't have a gun problem, we have a spiritual decay problem that has been going on for decades. The decimation of families, abortions (not starting a fight, just pointing out how cheap life has become), the dumbing-down of education, the hollowness that comes with celebrity worship, and the focus on exterior appearances have all contributed to the decay. Hollywood has a fixation on the young, the people with the least life experience and therefore the least wisdom. Even the music industry is affected, imagine the stars of the 60' & 70's being put through the "image-conscience, camera-friendly" world of todays music industry.
There is no depth in our society today, no wisdom espoused to a greater audience, no appreciation for (or knowledge of) our history and that of the world. I'm a 100% capitalist but our rampant consumerism has pushed artisans and craftsmen to the side, so little we make is of value anymore.
We have "9-11 truthers" and other people so gullible it's beyond my comprehension.
I look at my boys, 16 & 18, and I weep at the thought of the world they may end up living in. I've taught them what they need to be self-sufficient, to protect themselves, and taught them the lessons of history. I hope it serves them well when I'm not around any longer.
I also weep when I see this sort of event unfold. I avoid watching the news reporters and all their "experts" trying to "understand" what has happened, as if they could, while making the nutcase a celebrity in the process.
To be honest, I also feel an enormous amount of frustration when something like this happens and there is nobody like myself there to intervene. I have begun carrying in those "gun-free" zones as it seems this is where the shootings are most likely going to happen. Nothing is more tempting to a coward than not being a target himself.
Should I ever be present when one of these horror-events happen I will make certain that the tax-dollars spent to train me will not have been spent in vain. I'm not itching to start a fire-fight but have no problem finishing one. In the mean-time I will continue to train those in my life on how to protect themselves and others should they ever need too.
May God bless the vicitims of this, and other shootings, and may God have mercy on us all...

First off, THANK YOU AND YOUR FAMILY FOR YOUR SERVICE!! :hail:

And secondly, you are absolutely correct on the "problem", it IS a spiritual problem.

[GregWeld]

Found this in an article today... about a kid that had "plans" to attack his school.



I thought it interesting that there was a quote from a legislator....


Some Oklahoma lawmakers, reacting to the Connecticut shooting, called Monday for allowing teachers and school administrators to carry firearms on school campuses.

Rep. Mark McCullough, R-Sapulpa, said he is working on a bill that would allow teachers and school administrators to receive firearms training through the Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training, which would authorize them to carry weapons at school and at school events.

"It scares me that a madman could come into my children's school and kill my children," said McCullough, who has two boys, ages 7 and 9. "We need to harden these targets, harden these facilities with simple, common-sense steps.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Some states already have carry able teachers. I have mixed feelings about this. Like unarmed guards in a prison wing. You hate to see it but the chances for a bad guy to get his hands on it is high too.

I hope they get Magpul combat training and be able to hold a carry license.

[GregWeld]

An interesting bunch of statistics on guns in this country:




http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/18/15977143-gun-control-offers-no-cure-all-in-america?lite

[realcoray]

First off, THANK YOU AND YOUR FAMILY FOR YOUR SERVICE!! :hail:

And secondly, you are absolutely correct on the "problem", it IS a spiritual problem.

This is so wrong that I don't even know where to begin.

What video game did Charles Whitman play in the 1960s before killing 16 people?

Google for a list of school shootings (or massacres, they are nearly one and the same). You'll find a list that extends hundreds of years, where people including kids killed someone at their school.

Have we been on a decline that long, since basically the country was created?

Or has it been the case that damaged people have existed and will continue to exist, and that their access to high powered guns has simply increased, meaning as a group it's a lot easier to kill whole groups of people very quickly?

I'm not saying that's the only issue in play here but it's certainly one of them.

[Sieg]

An interesting bunch of statistics on guns in this country:




http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/18/15977143-gun-control-offers-no-cure-all-in-america?lite
the 1993 Brady Act prohibits the establishment of any electronic registry of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions.
.........maybe a little insight to the brilliance of the people establishing regulations to guide our society. :rolleyes:

Interesting data. If the US restricted only cheap Asian imports I imagine it would have a major impact on the total number of weapons. I see no need to sell junk weapons at Walmart pricing thus affordable to everyone. That alone would be one effective gun control measure.

[Vegas69]

While the gun debate heats up. There is another debate that is closer to my heart. The shooter was recognized as having Aspergers, a form of Autism. He also had some mental illness. I'm a father of 2 Autistic boys and have a close friend with a Highschool son with Aspergers. She is dealing with hatred already. I'm afraid for my kids as well. Please don't judge these children on an isolated event. My boys are very innocent and loving. My friend's son is a very good kid as well. Here is a statement from the Autism Society of Wisconsin's Facebook page....

On Friday, 27 people in Connecticut lost their life through the acts of a single person. These people were children, teachers, husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters. Today, their families are experiencing grief that cannot be described. Individuals impacted by Friday’s tragic shooting are in the hearts, thoughts and prayers throughout the Autism Society network.

Many national media outlets are reporting that the shooter was autistic. While as of yet, this has not been officially documented, many newspapers and television outlets are stating that the individual who shot the children and teachers was autistic. And, in such reports, there is an implication that autism might have had an impact on the person's mindset in leading to the shootings.

There is absolutely no evidence or any reliable research that suggests a linkage between autism and planned violence. To imply or suggest, as some are doing, that some linkage exists is wrong and harmful to the over 1.5 million law abiding, non-violent and wonderful individuals who live with autism each and every day. Stereotyping an entire group of individuals because of the actions of one is something is wrong and can't be accepted.

We ask that people not judge any autistic person based on what is being said about the killer of the innocent children and teachers. Rather, we ask that we continue to put our nation's attention on being there for the children and teachers who were killed on Friday.

One of my best friends has a 17 year old son with Autism. He's very intelligent but doesn't speak. In the last year he has had episodes of violence hitting his mother to the point where his father must put his life on hold to be with him at most times. It worries me as my buddy has many guns but he has never operated guns around him. However, it would be pretty easy for him to go on youtube or other sources to figure it out.... This is a prime example of a situation where a gun safe is MANDATORY. It's clear that his son is very frustrated with his situation. He has communicated that he wants to move out and have his own life through an Ipad. Unfortunately, he'll likely never be able to do so. I can see how these type of situation could lead to great violence.

Please don't take this negatively against your boys. I just wanted to point out that some autistic kids are violent by nature depending on the degree.

[GregWeld]

I'd still argue that controlling "guns" isn't going to solve the problem... when we can't control the PEOPLE that wield them.

When you read the first couple of lines in that article --- there's more guns in the USA than there are people! So it seems to me to be an already impossible task to put controls on something where you really have no control.

I do agree that there's a reason we aren't all allowed to have machine guns... and that high powered semi-automatics with huge magazines are a "problem" - but given the millions of these things in circulation (I own 3 myself!) how do we go about keeping them out of the wrong hands? There's so many ways to get hold of these and no registration or laws etc are going to affect someone bent on killing innocent people.

I still think it's a knee jerk, reactionary, feel good, kind of thinking that doesn't solve anything.

One of my police buddies stopped last night - he'd been to Wades (a shooting range/gun store) and every semi-auto AR 15 style rifle they had was sold out as of Monday morning. Why? Because people fear they'll be banned.... OMG!! So because of this talk -- they'll sell millions more!! Now what good has that done and what has it solved?

You know -- the funny thing is -- I'm not even a gun fan! But I have CC permits in two states -- have a safe (burglary and fire safe!) where they are stored (and the ammo and the magazines!). Is that because I'm afraid for my life? No -- I'm afraid they'd get into the wrong hands! So I do everything I can to keep them safe.

I read a statistic this week that said 60% of Americans own guns... 60%! Holy cow. My guess is that about 10% are hunters.

[cmraman]

One of my best friends has a 17 year old son with Autism. He's very intelligent but doesn't speak. In the last year he has had episodes of violence hitting his mother to the point where his father must put his life on hold to be with him at most times. It worries me as my buddy has many guns but he has never operated guns around him. However, it would be pretty easy for him to go on youtube or other sources to figure it out.... This is a prime example of a situation where a gun safe is MANDATORY. It's clear that his son is very frustrated with his situation. He has communicated that he wants to move out and have his own life through an Ipad. Unfortunately, he'll likely never be able to do so. I can see how these type of situation could lead to great violence.

Please don't take this negatively against your boys. I just wanted to point out that some autistic kids are violent by nature depending on the degree.

First of all educate yourself. First you said the child is non verbal. Mine are too. Have you ever thought that the reason for the outbursts is frustration?? Autistic children CAN'T express themselves. You need to think about the child's POV. First, how would you feel if you couldn't speak or express your wants or basic human needs at all, and would do anything out of frustration to try to communicate. My experience has told me that your friends' son is frustrated. Maybe it's provoked? I don't know the homelife. Do you? This is the narrow-mindedness that worries me. My oldest has at an early age, beat his head on the concrete driveway out of frustration for sure. THink about the parents as well. I'm sure there is a fair amount of frustration there too. Image for one minute, if you have kids, they cannot tell you when they are sick, hungry, upset, sad, happy, that they want to do certain things. Hell, they can't even say I love you. As a parent, when my child suddenly bursts out in tears and hits himself, I can see he's upset and frustrated about something, but he cant tell me why, I can't seem to figure out why. In the case of last Friday, there is much more to the story that what the media is saying. If your friend is concerned about the weapons, then he needs to take more precautions and keep them locked away. I'm not against the right to bear arms, but there is a certain responsibility that needs to take place. This also doesn't mean, any child with a disabiltiy is capable of hurting people either.

My friend who has a son with Aspergers found this. Here 18 year old son is already getting shunned at school. This sickens me. People need to educate themselves.

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/why-asperger-8217-didnt-cause-sandy-hook-school-164900109.html

[Vegas69]

Those are/ were EXACTLY my thoughts and I realize this is a very sensitive subject. Imagine being a 17 year old boy that can't go out with friends, go to college, have a girlfriend, on top of the communication... I've expressed that to his Dad. In fact, I talked to him about it 2 weeks ago. Kelli has autistic kids at school and they can be violent. It's like anything else in life, in the right circumstance, bad things can happen.

In the instance I'm talking about, I am genuinely worried about him getting his hands on a gun. He's a frustrated/violent kid and I'm not sure of his awareness of right and wrong. I've known him since he was 6 years old.

[GregWeld]

access to high powered guns has simply increased, meaning as a group it's a lot easier to kill whole groups of people very quickly?



In ACTUAL FACT ---- if you read the article I posted --- there is FAR more access to guns in general and the murder rate has FALLEN at the same time.

I'm not saying I'm for more guns or anything of the kind -- I'm just saying that the FACTS don't hold water when relating homicides and the plentiful supply of weapons.


A quick copy and paste from the article....


The rate of firearms-related murders in 2011 was 3.2 per 100,000 people – a sharp decline from 1993 when the rate of firearms-related murders was 6.6 per 100,000 people.
The number of firearms-related murder victims dropped from more than 17,000 in 1993 to 9,903 in 2011.


The article points to two manufacturers whose sales have risen 200% or more --- so SALES of weapons have obviously risen at the same time as the murder rate has dropped in half. If they were directly related - we'd see both numbers rising or falling. But here, clearly - one has doubled - and one was cut in half.

[hifi875]

There are just bad poeple in this world also. Unfortunately there is no real way to stop these things from happening. i'm not saying do nothing, but poeple will find a way to kill poeple, be it with a gun or a knife or fertilizer.
There are no simple answers.

[Ketzer]

In ACTUAL FACT

Some folks do not like the facts getting in the way of their feelings or opinions.
(this is NOT directed to anyone here!, just my opinion of a nation influenced so strongly by media)


Jeff-

[Sieg]

Some folks do not like the facts getting in the way of their feelings or opinions.
(this is NOT directed to anyone here!, just my opinion of a nation influenced so strongly by media)


Jeff-
Glad other's pay attention to that fact. In this day and age the media is much more opinion based than fact based. Facts don't surface until the feeding frenzy calms.

[realcoray]

There are just bad poeple in this world also. Unfortunately there is no real way to stop these things from happening. i'm not saying do nothing, but poeple will find a way to kill poeple, be it with a gun or a knife or fertilizer.
There are no simple answers.

This is true but such a flimsy position. How many massacres with knives are we seeing? How many teenagers are going to put together a bomb that does anything like this?

As far as the number of guns going up and crime going down, I didn't even mention that because I don't see how it's relevant. Your belief Greg is apparently that because the number of guns has risen, the volume of gun crime has dropped.

I doubt anyone could prove that, and I can offer quite a few other possible reasons. Let's see, longer minimum sentences mean that repeat offenders are in jail and thus not on the street to shoot people. More law enforcement means less crime, or at least people are caught earlier and therefore go to jail on those minimum sentences and so forth.

I agree 100% with the title of the article. Gun control offers no cure-all. You can't ban assault rifles and high capacity clips and think it will go away, but as part of a comprehensive approach to combating violence like the shooting.

[hifi875]

lets see there was one in china last friday(knife i believe). the columbine idiots had made home made bombs. WTH is flimsy.

[nicks67ca]

The checks and balances in CT on firearms is among the best in the US. With that said it wasn't good enough. I think there is more on the ammunition and accessories side that should be done.

Why not the same background check on any ammunition purchases over 50 rounds?

Why not limit the high capacity mags and or have the same waiting period and background check?

The ammunition and accessories are far to easy to get a hold of. Everyone who purchases firearms legally now use either a Drivers, hunting, or conceal carry licenses. I for one won't mind waiting an extra couple minutes when i purchase my rounds or next magazine.

I'll again add an additional perspective, I just saw half my graduating class at services today. Just an terrible way to catch up friends.

I also encountered the media when I was walking to my car. I was trying not to make eye contact with him but he approached my none the less. He asked if he could ask me a question and I just looked at him with utter disgust. Showing pictures of kids lined up at a funeral home is just wrong.

Nick

[nicks67ca]

lets see there was one in china last friday(knife i believe).

Don't forget that the difference is all 22 of those children are going home.

[GregWeld]

I agree 100% with the title of the article. Gun control offers no cure-all. You can't ban assault rifles and high capacity clips and think it will go away, but as part of a comprehensive approach to combating violence like the shooting.


When someone can show me that banning something ends the problem -- I'll totally agree with you. 'Til then - it's nothing but a feel good move that solves nothing.

We banned booze for awhile

We banned drugs

We don't allow teenage sex

We pledge to stay married for ever and ever

We swear to God "we'll never do "it" again".... and that lasts maybe 15 minutes.

We're humans. Humans just don't mind very well. Most of us do... but those few pesky ones -- well -- they just ruin it for all of us.

:cheers:

[realcoray]

lets see there was one in china last friday(knife i believe). the columbine idiots had made home made bombs. WTH is flimsy.

And how many people died because of those two things?

Oh that's right, zero!

Someone could make a bomb that could kill way more people than a gun. The worst school massacre was done with a bomb, but that's the thing, since then over the last 100 years it's a lot more difficult to get your hands on explosives, and it's just generally a lot more work to do similar damage.

The colorado guy had a bomb or something akin to it, if it was so efficient why did he leave it where he lived, instead of just driving a car bomb to the theatre?

I'm not saying ban guns, I'm saying that people generally accept that the second amendment doesn't say you can bear any arms in particular, like oh an automatic weapon, a RPG, or a nuclear bomb. I think it's reasonable as one facet of an overall approach to say maybe we shouldn't sell armor piercing bullets to just whomever, or high capacity clips, or high powered assault rifles.

It will NOT fix the problem tomorrow, I mean the gun used in this shooting was banned, but grandfathered in, but nothing will fix it immediately.

[GregWeld]

You remember when we had a drag strip in almost every community in America back in the 50's and 60's? Why? To get kids to stop street racing....

Then we banned the drag strips 'cause they draw crowds and cause traffic problems and make too much noise...

Now we're back to street racing and kids getting killed.....

Don't those stupid kids know that's been banned!!!

[hifi875]

i didnt mean to sound insensitive. Its just a subject with no definitive answers. The media is just going on and on about it, sensationalizing the whole story and thinking they can find the answer to how and why. Then the politicians use it as a platform and say something must be done. But they don't know what to do either.

[hifi875]

And how many people died because of those two things?

Oh that's right, zero!

Someone could make a bomb that could kill way more people than a gun. The worst school massacre was done with a bomb, but that's the thing, since then over the last 100 years it's a lot more difficult to get your hands on explosives, and it's just generally a lot more work to do similar damage.

The colorado guy had a bomb or something akin to it, if it was so efficient why did he leave it where he lived, instead of just driving a car bomb to the theatre?

I'm not saying ban guns, I'm saying that people generally accept that the second amendment doesn't say you can bear any arms in particular, like oh an automatic weapon, a RPG, or a nuclear bomb. I think it's reasonable as one facet of an overall approach to say maybe we shouldn't sell armor piercing bullets to just whomever, or high capacity clips, or high powered assault rifles.

It will NOT fix the problem tomorrow, I mean the gun used in this shooting was banned, but grandfathered in, but nothing will fix it immediately.

He wasn't a teenager, but timothy mcveigh, lets see, he killed 168 poeple including alot of children 19 to be exact.

[Shmoov69]

It was a broad brushstroke about society in general, not just this particular instance. There is no denying that things that were once socially unacceptable are now quite acceptable and sometimes even praised. (I'm talking about the US BTW) The only thing it takes for evil to prevail is for good to do nothing. I am aware that Evil will ALWAYS exist and that bad people do bad things, but it is only getting worse by (either) the good being silent, or the good being silenced.
My .02
This is so wrong that I don't even know where to begin.

What video game did Charles Whitman play in the 1960s before killing 16 people?

Google for a list of school shootings (or massacres, they are nearly one and the same). You'll find a list that extends hundreds of years, where people including kids killed someone at their school.

Have we been on a decline that long, since basically the country was created?

Or has it been the case that damaged people have existed and will continue to exist, and that their access to high powered guns has simply increased, meaning as a group it's a lot easier to kill whole groups of people very quickly?

I'm not saying that's the only issue in play here but it's certainly one of them.

[intocarss]

When someone can show me that banning something ends the problem -- I'll totally agree with you. 'Til then - it's nothing but a feel good move that solves nothing.

We banned booze for awhile

We banned drugs

We don't allow teenage sex

We pledge to stay married for ever and ever

We swear to God "we'll never do "it" again".... and that lasts maybe 15 minutes.

We're humans. Humans just don't mind very well. Most of us do... but those few pesky ones -- well -- they just ruin it for all of us.

:cheers:

:cheers:

[Bryan O]

Oh that's right, zero!

Wrong! 60 million.

Are you saying we should emulate China?

I think it's reasonable as one facet of an overall approach to say maybe we shouldn't sell armor piercing bullets to just whomever, or high capacity clips, or high powered assault rifles.

It will NOT fix the problem tomorrow, I mean the gun used in this shooting was banned, but grandfathered in, but nothing will fix it immediately.

Correct! It WILL make things far worse. It WILL set the stage for an American Mao.

The things you want to ban ensure we will not have an American Mao.

[rugbyguy]

Gentleman,
I was going to go into to a ten minute tirad about how american's don't need tactical weapon, but probably not gonna change anyone's mind. So here is a little info I picked up. Gun Deaths 2011 Japan 48, Great Britan 8, Canada 52, Israel 58, Sweden 21, Germany 42, United States 10,782.

I live in Canada where we have laws that regulate restricted and prohibited firearms. I don't walk around in fear and feel the need to arm myself. If someone takes my stuff I have insurance. If some comes into my house I have a sherwood 5050 hockey stick( no pun intended), and 911.

Just my $0.02

Cheers
Mack

P.S. I'll be sure to see some of you profiled on a upcoming episode of Doomsday Preppers.:cheers: :

[Shmoov69]

P.S. I'll be sure to see some of you profiled on a upcoming episode of Doomsday Preppers.:cheers: :

LOL!! Never seen it, but a lot of us wear tinfoil hats down to the south of you! We must find them quite comforting or something!! LOL!:willy:

Really tho, for some reason or another (or many), a lot of us just don't trust our government. I think that is a big reason for our "fear".

[Bryan O]

Governments can definitely be trusted. Trusted to produce Hitlers.

Since Mack threw up Germany as an example let's do the math:

6,000,000 ÷ 10,782 = 556.

[realcoray]

He wasn't a teenager, but timothy mcveigh, lets see, he killed 168 poeple including alot of children 19 to be exact.

He sure did and it was a tragedy, but you cannot say that because there are OTHER ways to kill lots of people, we just shouldn't even bother trying to control ANY of the ways.

This is akin to saying that since you can kill 168 people via a fertilizer bomb, we should just not bother regulating sarin gas, because if you regulate sarin gas, then that crazy person will just use explosives.

Wrong! 60 million.

Are you saying we should emulate China?

Correct! It WILL make things far worse. It WILL set the stage for an American Mao.

The things you want to ban ensure we will not have an American Mao.

You are hilarious but I'm not even sure what you're saying here. I'm pretty sure that re-enacting a ban that was in place for many years and didn't end up causing catastrophe is probably not going to do much towards whatever it is you're rambling on about here.

[hifi875]

He sure did and it was a tragedy, but you cannot say that because there are OTHER ways to kill lots of people, we just shouldn't even bother trying to control ANY of the ways.

This is akin to saying that since you can kill 168 people via a fertilizer bomb, we should just not bother regulating sarin gas, because if you regulate sarin gas, then that crazy person will just use explosives.



You are hilarious but I'm not even sure what you're saying here. I'm pretty sure that re-enacting a ban that was in place for many years and didn't end up causing catastrophe is probably not going to do much towards whatever it is you're rambling on about here.

There are already gun laws in place. its funny, in cities where there is a ban on guns(chicago, d.c.) the murder rate is the highest.

[96z28ss]

Gentleman,
I was going to go into to a ten minute tirad about how american's don't need tactical weapon, but probably not gonna change anyone's mind. So here is a little info I picked up. Gun Deaths 2011 Japan 48, Great Britan 8, Canada 52, Israel 58, Sweden 21, Germany 42, United States 10,782.

I live in Canada where we have laws that regulate restricted and prohibited firearms. I don't walk around in fear and feel the need to arm myself. If someone takes my stuff I have insurance. If some comes into my house I have a sherwood 5050 hockey stick( no pun intended), and 911.

Just my $0.02

Cheers
Mack

P.S. I'll be sure to see some of you profiled on a upcoming episode of Doomsday Preppers.:cheers: :

Where are you getting your info? those numbers don't seem right.
Also Your laws regulate just about as good as our do.

Google search=
"Canada has one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world. There are almost as many rifles per capita in Canada as in the United States.[6] Gun ownership rate is about 29% of households with great regional variations. Typically, rural is much higher than urban, west higher than east. The majority of Canadian firearms include rifles, shotguns, and pistols. Firearms are readily available to licensed Canadian citizens. Fully automatic firearms are an exception and are generally prohibited from private ownership.

[intocarss]

Gentleman,
I was going to go into to a ten minute tirad about how american's don't need tactical weapon, but probably not gonna change anyone's mind. So here is a little info I picked up. Gun Deaths 2011 Japan 48, Great Britan 8, Canada 52, Israel 58, Sweden 21, Germany 42, United States 10,782.

I live in Canada where we have laws that regulate restricted and prohibited firearms. I don't walk around in fear and feel the need to arm myself. If someone takes my stuff I have insurance. If some comes into my house I have a sherwood 5050 hockey stick( no pun intended), and 911.

Just my $0.02

Cheers
Mack

P.S. I'll be sure to see some of you profiled on a upcoming episode of Doomsday Preppers.:cheers: :

This is from the Toronto Police.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/real3/GunControl.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/real3/GunControl2.jpg

For a country with such strict gun control it's funny how the majority of homicides in Toronto always seem to be by shooting.

[482supersnake]

Gentleman,
I was going to go into to a ten minute tirad about how american's don't need tactical weapon, but probably not gonna change anyone's mind. So here is a little info I picked up. Gun Deaths 2011 Japan 48, Great Britan 8, Canada 52, Israel 58, Sweden 21, Germany 42, United States 10,782.

I live in Canada where we have laws that regulate restricted and prohibited firearms. I don't walk around in fear and feel the need to arm myself. If someone takes my stuff I have insurance. If some comes into my house I have a sherwood 5050 hockey stick( no pun intended), and 911.

Just my $0.02

Cheers
Mack

P.S. I'll be sure to see some of you profiled on a upcoming episode of Doomsday Preppers.:cheers: :

Look at the violent crime rates for Germany and Great Britain. Their's is 3 times higher than the US. Just because a gun wasn't used doesn't mean that there isn't violent crime. Also accros the pond they have cameras everywhere yet they still have crime.
It may be a little harsh but I think that one of the biggest problems is the lack of natural selection. I times past the community would get rid of the social deviants now we put them on a medication that may actualy make their problems worse, and let them roam the streets. Also like Greg said why are these parents letting their kids buy and play these insane video games. There does not need to be a regulation against them just parents that take a minute to actualy be a parent.

[GregWeld]

The gun debate could go on forever....


I'm still mourning for the children - staff - parents - town... of Newtown, CT. regardless of how they were killed or why.


I think it comes down to normal law abiding sane individuals never use a gun - or any other weapon - to harm another human being. Insane/disturbed/criminals etc will use whatever means at their disposal. We owe it to all Americans - as gun owners - to do a better job keeping whatever weapons we have out of their hands. In this tragic case the Mother (she was legal owner of the weapons used) failed to control HER weapons. Had she done an adequate job - she'd possibly still be alive...not to mention all the other victims (let's call them what they are - children, Mothers, loving PEOPLE).

Perhaps what we need is a gun regulation requiring SAFE STORAGE first before ANY gun (including revolvers etc) could be purchased. In other words - until you could prove you had a safe (minimum standards would have to be legislated) place for said property you couldn't buy ANYTHING. And perhaps households with at risk minors should have even stronger regulations.

Too bad there's no registration of gun ownership allowed.... because it would be a good regulation to have all gun owners subject to random checks to see that their weapons were properly secured. We are subject to regulations for driving -- it's a privilege -- we have to have our cars pass safety checks etc. I wouldn't be against having to prove that I can and will secure my weapons and ammo at all times including during transport etc.

As sad as I am about this - and other tragedies -- I still don't think the "evil" should dictate the terms of our lives and how we choose to live them. And none of us can argue "need" -- since we don't "need" much of what we have in our lives -- so who should tell me what I need or don't need? That's not what America is built on!

[Bucketlist2012]

No mainstream media is labeling the shooter a "teabagger", or a gun loving Repub.....Hmmmmm.......Wonder what that means ?

[Garage Dog 65]

Some on the news are now reporting that his mother was in the process of committing him - he found out and was extremely upset.

[Bryan O]

Greg,

I'm with you up to your idea of random searches by the "authorities" of my home. That would be a gross violation of the 4th Amendment. Keeping and bearing arms is a right. A God given right. It is not a privilege.

It makes me livid the way some gun owners allow others access to their guns. This is probably what happened in the Newtown case.

As you must know, there are strict requirements for gun safes in Cal but no real follow up on where or not the gun owner actually has a safe.

[GregWeld]

Greg,

I'm with you up to your idea of random searches by the "authorities" of my home. That would be a gross violation of the 4th Amendment. Keeping and bearing arms is a right. A God given right. It is not a privilege.

It makes me livid the way some gun owners allow others access to their guns. This is probably what happened in the Newtown case.

As you must know, there are strict requirements for gun safes in Cal but no real follow up on where or not the gun owner actually has a safe.



Okay :) -- Maybe we just make this - or something similar - a condition of ownership of certain kinds of guns - such as the AR15 styles and the AK47's etc - capable of semi auto firing and using anything over a 9 round magazine. In other words - I'm okay with some onerous link to ownership.... that would "make" people think about their responsibility to society at large?

[Shmoov69]

Tinfoil hat anyone?!?:_paranoid

l0DeMJyfZ4Y

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Yeah Jimmy, I don't know what to think.

First reports I heard was from a Sgt. He stated that 2 handguns were found next to the gun man. A search of his mothers vehicle turned up a shotgun and an AR rifle.
Then a second suspect was seen fleeing into the woods, now they recant that also. I don't think anyone knew what was going.

As far as the turn to foriegn versus US violence....I have idea, so no comment.

[nicks67ca]

The gun debate could go on forever....


I'm still mourning for the children - staff - parents - town... of Newtown, CT. regardless of how they were killed or why.



That about sums it up for me.

[Vegas69]

My letter has been sent to:

Senator Reid
Governor Sandoval
Mayor Hafen
School District Superintendent Dr. Jones

Attempt to make your voice heard.

[GregWeld]

^^^^^^^ Yeah Nick --- I can't emphasize that enough.

The rest of the discussion is just a way for people to try to vent some frustration... and get their heads around such senseless acts.

I sometimes refer to a sign I used to have on my desk:

Try not to let what's urgent get in the way of what's important.

[Stuart Adams]

It's all about access to whatever venue a bad person want to committ. Access is the key. Until access is adressed people will find ways to hurt others. Gun control is pointless unless you stop the ability of bad or sick people gaining access to be able to hurt innocent people. Could be bombs, fire, guns, chemical agents, knifes shanks, etc. etc.

Kinda hard to get a gun on an airplane now isn't it.

[GregWeld]

In this case -- the access was via his own Mother...

[realcoray]

It's all about access to whatever venue a bad person want to committ. Access is the key. Until access is adressed people will find ways to hurt others. Gun control is pointless unless you stop the ability of bad or sick people gaining access to be able to hurt innocent people. Could be bombs, fire, guns, chemical agents, knifes shanks, etc. etc.

Kinda hard to get a gun on an airplane now isn't it.

How exactly do you accomplish this goal of keeping bad people away from innocent people?

Does every school, mall, theatre, office building etc need a single entrance with full body scanners?

Do you retrofit all schools with either bullet proof glass thick enough to stop armor piercing assault weapon rounds, or just make the windows so small no one can get through them?

Access is without a doubt an area that we could improve on that could reduce the effectiveness of the people doing these things. For example in Sandy Hook they had the doors locked down, but it took him basically no time to get inside and start murdering people. Even just slowing people down can make a huge difference as it gives law enforcement time to show up.

I know that schools are being designed these days with these sorts of events in mind. There was a new story locally about a firm that designs most schools in our state and they talked about some of it.

My point though is that I think you can only do so much here without making daily life a borderline prison for kids and adults. I don't want to get a body cavity search every time I go to the theatre and I don't want my daughter going to school in a place that has metal detectors, police everywhere, slits for windows, thick bulletproof glass, teachers with AR15s, etc.

[Stuart Adams]

In this case -- the access was via his own Mother...

He just walked on campus. He could have had a bomb and no one would know.

[Stuart Adams]

How exactly do you accomplish this goal of keeping bad people away from innocent people?

Does every school, mall, theatre, office building etc need a single entrance with full body scanners?

Do you retrofit all schools with either bullet proof glass thick enough to stop armor piercing assault weapon rounds, or just make the windows so small no one can get through them?

Access is without a doubt an area that we could improve on that could reduce the effectiveness of the people doing these things. For example in Sandy Hook they had the doors locked down, but it took him basically no time to get inside and start murdering people. Even just slowing people down can make a huge difference as it gives law enforcement time to show up.

I know that schools are being designed these days with these sorts of events in mind. There was a new story locally about a firm that designs most schools in our state and they talked about some of it.

My point though is that I think you can only do so much here without making daily life a borderline prison for kids and adults. I don't want to get a body cavity search every time I go to the theatre and I don't want my daughter going to school in a place that has metal detectors, police everywhere, slits for windows, thick bulletproof glass, teachers with AR15s, etc.

Unfortunately that is reality. It sucks, but at any given time some whack job can go off anywhere.

[GregWeld]

I have an idea that would solve several issues PERHAPS:


We hire ex military (veterans) and retired police - veterans first dibs... to be plain clothes conceal carry - body armor UNDER their clothing -- to cover all entrances at schools. They would receive extensive training and phsyc evaluations etc.

This would help veterans find jobs... would help retirees meet their needs. This would be PART TIME employment but with full benefits etc. Let's say it pays $40,000 a year - summers off etc. Applicants would be required to live within their school district. So you'd have to live in Chicago to work for Chicago schools etc. Or put a milage radius -- say maybe you have to live within 10 miles of the school you work at.


NOW -- This could be PAID FOR via -- Federal Tax stamps (ala cigarettes / booze) on EVERY weapon - magazine - ammo PRODUCED OR IMPORTED. And collected UP FRONT at the point of manufacture or import. Let's say $100 per hand gun - to include shotguns and hunting rifles - $500 per Military style rifle - $5 per magazine up to 9 rounds - $20 per magazine over 9 round capacity - $5 per 50 rounds of ammo regardless of caliber or style.


This would help solve -- unemployment -- would add to school security -- would not take anyones "rights" away... and only gun enthusiasts would foot the bill. :cheers: :woot:


What say you guys????

[Vegas69]

Some other ideas that have been swimming....

Have an active military officer staffing every school. Don't tell me we can't alternate them and sacrifice their time. We are already paying them. Kelli's brother is a former Marine that is having trouble finding work. What about reservists or retired military?

While it seems like common sense, lock up your guns! Especially if you have kids or mentally disturbed individuals. In that afformentioned class when buying your first firearm, a lecture on buying a SAFE and securing your firearms, ethically.

I'm going to write the Mayor of Henderson and my local representitive with my ideas. Do the same.

:unibrow: I'm starting to see the retired military thing floating around and it's a great idea. It's in my letters to all parties. I like your idea of where the money is coming from.

My other idea about making EVERYONE take a class when they buy their first gun is secondary but crucial. It would create jobs and the cosumer should pay for taking the class.

[realcoray]

This would help solve -- unemployment -- would add to school security -- would not take anyones "rights" away... and only gun enthusiasts would foot the bill. :cheers: :woot:

What say you guys????

I think it's a reasonable idea but I have the sense that if you try to do anything involving guns, a certain subset of the population will flip out.

In the same way they can say why should I not have a semi automatic assault rifle just because a crazy person might shoot up a school, they could ask why they should have to pay to protect us from that crazy person.

It also would likely be the case that the people so hardcore about guns, are also no fans of taxes, nor of the government increasing it's head count by 100k+ people. You know, communist police state or whatever it is.

I think it's an interesting question though, instead of banning things, taxing them to try to counter act what those things do or allow. It's certainly something we do a lot of (taxes on alchohol, cigarettes etc).

[GregWeld]

I think it's a reasonable idea but I have the sense that if you try to do anything involving guns, a certain subset of the population will flip out.

That's a given. This is the USA -- "Everyone" has their own agenda.

Re: Anti tax.... it's why you have shows on TV about bootlegging Moonshine.

Bans don't solve anything and only drive it underground... we'll ban something and then create a government entity to enforce the ban. We're idiots.

People smoke - they pay big taxes to do so... IMHO not enough! But if you read my Investing 102 thread -- I make a bunch of money on cigarette stocks (dividends from them).

People drink - they pay a bunch of taxes.... we spend far more probably on DUI enforcement etc. and we still have bootleggers...

We have illegals coming across the border hourly.... we barely pay lip service to stopping that. Why? Because it's damn near impossible to stop. We can only hope to curb it.

My idea is an Obama - Shovel ready employment creator.... paid for with a SIN TAX... and I'll guarantee that tree hugger Mom will still find a way to bitch about having someone with a gun at their children's school...

[wiedemab]

My wife is a HS Teacher and they have an armed retired State Police Officer (have for several years) at the school all day every day.

I don't know all of the details of how they work this out, but I'm assuming he is paid by the school district. I don't know if they do this for all of the schools in the district or only the High School. I'll have to ask her.

Seems reasonable to me. It's a good supplemental part-time job for him and I know for one that it makes my wife feel more safe knowing that he's there.

[realcoray]

That's a given. This is the USA -- "Everyone" has their own agenda.

Re: Anti tax.... it's why you have shows on TV about bootlegging Moonshine.



One other point is that to pay for 100k employees, which is just about 1 per school, at 40k each, is just about 25%-50% of all firearms revenues depending on what numbers you look at.

You'd almost certainly have to ban private sales, and eliminate the gun show hole (which would drastically cut gun show sales). Not because of criminals buying guns, just because there would be no convenience to it.

Both of those are complete non starters with the hardcore gun rights people, because they use the slippery slope argument.

[GregWeld]

One other point is that to pay for 100k employees, which is just about 1 per school, at 40k each, is just about 25%-50% of all firearms revenues depending on what numbers you look at.

You'd almost certainly have to ban private sales, and eliminate the gun show hole (which would drastically cut gun show sales). Not because of criminals buying guns, just because there would be no convenience to it.

Both of those are complete non starters with the hardcore gun rights people, because they use the slippery slope argument.


Wrong -- sorry....

The government has the right - via congress - to vote TAXES in as they wish. What they can't do is to take away the right to bear arms... that's the slippery slope! Taxes -- they're good at that! All they need do is vote it in - DONE.

Thus my idea. It doesn't take away anything from anyone. It's just a tax levied. Gasoline taxes - income taxes - property taxes etc.

I say collect the tax at the point of manufacture - or import - and we could add "gun dealer" for used guns or otherwise - pays this tax period. So you could end up collecting this tax multiple times on one weapon if it changed hands a lot. So what.... let it change hands -- each guy is paying that tax! So be it.

At gun shows -- nobody goes in with guns that can't show the taxes paid -- these are (I'm assuming) licensed gun dealers -- and nobody leaves a show with a gun/ammo/ etc without a tax paid receipt with the serial numbers etc.

There would OBVIOUSLY be some hiccups that would need to be worked out in details. We have lots (535) of idiots in Washington DC to work out the details - but my point was - a basic plan with a revenue attached to it.

The government is good at collecting taxes... so let them do what they're good at.

[Sieg]

One example of how effective Gun Control efforts might be...............

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34222_162-57560107-10391739/atf-agents-personal-weapon-found-at-mexican-beauty-queen-cartel-crime-scene/

The recovered weapon is a so-called FN Herstal pistol nicknamed a "cop-killer" because of its designation as a "weapon of choice" for Mexican drug cartels.
Here's the real reason it's called a cop-killer:

SS190 duty ammunition
The SS190 FMJ, a refinement of the SS90, was introduced in 1993.[6] It offered superior performance over the prototype projectile as well as slightly reduced length.[6] The latter change allowed it to be used more conveniently in the Five-seven pistol also being developed at that time.[9] Fired from the P90, the SS190 propels a 2.0-g (31 grain) bullet at a muzzle velocity of roughly 715 m/s (2,350 ft/s). It has a steel penetrator and an aluminum core.[40] The SS190 has been manufactured with a plain, black, or black-on-white tip color.[15][41][42] It is classified by the ATF as armor-piercing (AP) ammunition, and its sale is currently restricted by FN to military and law enforcement customers.[15][24]
In testing done by Houston Police Department SWAT, the SS190 fired from the P90 into bare ballistic gelatin exhibited penetration depths ranging from 28 to 34 cm (11 to 13.5 in).[21] In testing in 1999 by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), the SS190 fired from the P90 at a distance of 25 m (27 yd) exhibited an average penetration depth of 25 cm (9.85 in) in ballistic gelatin after passing through a Level II kevlar vest.[38]


Gillett has acknowledged to CBS News that it was likely his weapon, but says he sold it sometime in 2011 to someone through the Internet.
The I know nothing diplomatic immunity answer.......does it work for Joe Average citizen?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Excellent ideas, I'm for it however. I hope it doesn't turn into another gov piggy bank for them to use as they wish. Stealing from Peter to pay Paul isn't going to fly. Greg can you see if you can call Biden. I'm sure there are many ideas we can give him since he only has a few weeks to come up with a plan.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

A few good ones are:
-End gun show over the shoulders sales. ID and a "gun card" to purchase a firearm.
-ID necassary to buy ammo.
-dealer card required for ammo purchases over 1500 rounds. 1000 rounds mil spec ammo.
-Ammo tax.
-Increase fines or stricter sentances for dealer that straw sell and or sell to restricted persons.
-Increase fines sentances for violators of safe handling if firearms are accessed by restricted persons.
-Reinforce laws on usage by restricted persons.
-Lose your right to own if you violate any safe requirements. Might be abit harsh. Maybe lose your guns instead of your right.
-Better instruction to get gun cards. Maybe a front sight or cc type class with a pass and fail format. Including target and stress training. Family members should attend if they will be living in the same household.
-Yearly gun card test and fee. Don't renew your license , your fees compound.
-higher taxes for " evil black rifles" and mil spec ammo
-special training and card requirered for semi auto, evil black rifles.
-enforce age requirments for ammo purchases.
-mental aptitude test required for card testing.

[Shmoov69]

Just out of curiosity, what happened to the wire reinforced glass that schools used to have when I was a kid? That would have slowed thing a bit!

And the whole tax thing is good in theory, but when was the last time the govt actually stuck to a good idea and didn't totally screw it up with tons of bacon?!!':question:

[GregWeld]

Excellent ideas, I'm for it however. I hope it doesn't turn into another gov piggy bank for them to use as they wish. Stealing from Peter to pay Paul isn't going to fly. Greg can you see if you can call Biden. I'm sure there are many ideas we can give him since he only has a few weeks to come up with a plan.



I sent my idea - exactly as I posted here - to BOTH the Senators from Washington (Murray and Cantwell) and to the White House -- via their on line "contacts" forms. The White House contact page is not separated for Biden vs Obama...

[GregWeld]

Just out of curiosity, what happened to the wire reinforced glass that schools used to have when I was a kid? That would have slowed thing a bit!


That's "safety glass" not security glass... that stuff was used so you didn't kick a ball through the glass accidentally and shatter it. Dude! How long has it been since you were in school??? :lol: The world is advancing we now have laminated glass... :woot:

[Shmoov69]

LoL!! Well, I knew you couldn't just walk thru it. It was a PITA to "knock out" for sure!!

[GregWeld]

Here's another thing I find "disturbing"... and every time I go to the range/gun shop -- there's a case full of these... I've always "questioned" (silently <pun> to myself) why would anyone need something like this? For what purpose? Ranges are noisy places -- we're already REQUIRED to wear eyes and ears... so it's certainly not to protect my ears from loud noises, is it.

YET --- We know why! TAXES!! For a $200 "Tax stamp" -- ordinary people can buy Silencers...


Can I own a silencer?

Silencers have never been illegal under federal law; they have only been regulated and taxed. This means that if your state doesn’t prohibit ownership of silencers, you can probably buy one. Here are some things you also need to know.
• Must be 21 years old when purchasing from a dealer
• Typically, if you can buy an handgun, you can buy a silencer
• Must not have been convicted of a felony or pleaded guilty to
domestic violence charge(s)
• Must be a United States Citizen

[Z10ROD]

dam there were a lot of really good ideas in this thread and fast too. but for some reason I don't think congress will be able to accomplish anything close to these ideas. at the very least i hope they make buying any firearm like gettting a cc license. education and background with a mental health exam. i'm crossing my fingers. It needs to have some balls Joe !!!!!

[Ketzer]

Here's another thing I find "disturbing"... and every time I go to the range/gun shop -- there's a case full of these... I've always "questioned" (silently <pun> to myself) why would anyone need something like this? For what purpose? Ranges are noisy places -- we're already REQUIRED to wear eyes and ears... so it's certainly not to protect my ears from loud noises, is it.

YET --- We know why! TAXES!! For a $200 "Tax stamp" -- ordinary people can buy Silencers...


Can I own a silencer?

Silencers have never been illegal under federal law; they have only been regulated and taxed. This means that if your state doesn’t prohibit ownership of silencers, you can probably buy one. Here are some things you also need to know.
• Must be 21 years old when purchasing from a dealer
• Typically, if you can buy an handgun, you can buy a silencer
• Must not have been convicted of a felony or pleaded guilty to
domestic violence charge(s)
• Must be a United States Citizen

One thing missing from your list of musts; Patience
That $200 "stamp" (it really does look like an oversized postage stamp on your paperwork) takes on average about 10 months to get. Talk about a cooling off period! There are only a handful of processors and they are not rushing through anything. It is very much a "soup nazi" type ordeal. Am I complaining? NO. Class 3 or title 4 or whatever you want to call them, shouldn't be easy to get. (I won't digress into how easy that stuff can be had illegally :rolleyes: )

Jeff-

[Vince@Meanstreets]

That's "safety glass" not security glass... that stuff was used so you didn't kick a ball through the glass accidentally and shatter it. Dude! How long has it been since you were in school??? :lol: The world is advancing we now have laminated glass... :woot:

LOL, I hope he didn't eat the paint chips too.

Something Greg was alluding to.... http://m.modbee.com/modesto/db_262521/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=ASYRd4gW

[intocarss]

HUGHSON, Calif. —Marine Sgt. Craig Pusley was on duty Wednesday. Desert camo fatigues, knees slightly bent, the young father stood a self-imposed watch at Hughson Elementary School.

One man. No rifle. No pay. No breaks.

"When I enlisted, I swore to defend this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic," said Pusley, 28. He served two tours in Iraq, in Baghdad and Ramadi, and one in the Helmand province of Afghanistan before leaving active duty.

"Schools are kind of against the rules over there," he said. Over there, he stood guard for 24-hour stretches with a "battle buddy." The pair spelled each other through short breaks for bare necessities.

He has no battle buddy in this small Central California town near Modesto, about 80 miles south of Sacramento. But after reading a Facebook post urging soldiers be posted at every school in the wake of last week's tragic shooting at an elementary school in Connecticut, he decided to take action on his own.

To the surprise of his very pregnant wife, Kristina, Pusley got up early Wednesday and dressed in uniform. He walked out of the house and around the corner to the kindergarten through third-grade school at 7:30 a.m.

"I was just praying and hoping the principal would say yes," he said.

Principal Laura Fong did. "I said, 'Absolutely!' In light of all that's happened, this is especially the time to make sure we help students and families feel safe," she said.

Kristina Pusley, expecting in two weeks' time, brought future Hughson Elementary kindergartner Canon, 3, to visit daddy midmorning. "I'm proud of him for it," she said.

From 7:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. Wednesday, Pusley stood his post, greeting kids as they arrived and saluting the flag with the kindergarten class of Annette Diliberto.

"I just want to have a word to this community that I stand between them and any danger," he said. Asked about his lack of firepower, Pusley said, "I don't need to be armed to do this. I don't have a fear in the world that if someone came here, I'd have the strength and the ability to protect them."

But by Wednesday night, he was facing a different type of threat.

By wearing those fatigues instead of a dress uniform in public, the Marine reservist said, he violated Marine Corps protocol and could face up to a $10,000 fine and five years in prison. Worst of all for a proud veteran and provider for a growing family, "dishonorable" could be stamped across his honorable discharge.

He said he was warned by phone by former Marine Jordan Pritchard, who stood a similar guard earlier this week at an elementary school in Nashville, Tenn. Pritchard was notified by the U.S. Marine Corps that he was the subject of a formal investigation, Pusley said.

"I made a mistake. I shouldn't have worn it. I apologize to my community, my nation and the Marine Corps," Pusley said, adding he's written a letter of apology to President Barack Obama as well.

He's a stay-at-home dad right now. The family is living on savings and his Reserve pay, enjoying being safe and together after his years away.

He will not be at Hughson Elementary on Thursday, he said. Besides fears for his future and his family, Pusley was clearly taken aback by the publicity and attention showered on him at the school.

Many Hughson residents drove by; many stopped to shake his hand. A television crew checked in. Facebook spread the word.

School receptionist Angelee Martin said she spent the morning leaking tears every time she looked out at him. "Everybody feels so safe with him there. He just impresses me so much," Martin said.

Parent Danielle Batteate said having a Marine on campus was wonderful. "Somebody, out of their own heart, is actually protecting our children," she said.

Other parents posted the news on Facebook, bringing well-wishers who offered the Marine cup after cup of coffee. But too much coffee would mean leaving his post before school let out, so a growing collection of cups sat cooling around the flag pole.
.

[Sieg]

Thanks Jerry - Great story!

No comment regarding my gut feelings on the $10K tax threat imposed on him.

[GregWeld]

Great post Jer!



Here's the CANNED response I received from my "mom in tennis shoes" aka Senator Murray... Note that (spare you reading it) she has immediately jumped straight to voting for an assault weapons ban. Fine. It just doesn't do anything except to make unknowing people feel good.


Dear Mr. Weld:

Thank you for writing me regarding the tragic shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut. It was good to hear from you.

As a mother, grandmother, and former preschool teacher I was shocked by the tragedy that unfolded in Newtown. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families and loved ones of the victims whose loss is difficult to comprehend.

Unfortunately, this horrific tragedy was another in a long line of gun violence episodes that have ranged from places like Columbine, Virginia Tech, and Aurora to coffee shops in Lakewood to the corner of South Byron Street and McClintock Ave South in Seattle. These episodes have plagued our cities, our schools, and our shared sense of security. This cannot go on. As a society we need to come together to begin a real conversation on all the factors contributing to those horrific instances of gun violence, but we also need to take specific action to bolster our current gun safety laws.

There is no question that we can and should limit access to the assault style weapons of war that are on our streets and that are too often being used to kill innocent people indiscriminately. I have repeatedly voted for an assault weapons ban and will do so again as soon as we can get a bill to the Senate floor.

But preventing tragedies like the one in Newtown will take more than just common-sense gun policies and enforcement. It will also take a renewed commitment to understanding and dealing with the root causes that lead isolated individuals to carry out these atrocities. At this moment, everything needs to be on the table for scrutiny.

Our nation is at a crossroads moment, and we must take the path that protects future generations from re-living these gun violence tragedies over and over again. It will take the courage of people with opposing views but a common purpose sitting down with one another and agreeing that the status quo is unacceptable.

Please be assured I will keep your views in mind as I work with my colleagues and please feel free to share with me your ideas on how to address this crisis. If you would like to know more about my work in the Senate, please feel free to sign up for my updates at http://murrav.senate.gov/updates. Thank you for contacting me, and please do not hesitate to contact me again.

Sincerely,
Patty Murray
United States Senator

[Stuart Adams]

Putting a ban on is not going to stop this stuff. The gunman killed himself. No crime for the gun because he's dead. Peolpe will find ways to get guns. Like drugs right, they are illegal but are everywhere.

It sucks bigtime, but these issues are way deeper than a piece of legislated paper. Mental health is very serious and common.

[Vegas69]

HUGHSON, Calif. —Marine Sgt. Craig Pusley was on duty Wednesday. Desert camo fatigues, knees slightly bent, the young father stood a self-imposed watch at Hughson Elementary School.

One man. No rifle. No pay. No breaks.

"When I enlisted, I swore to defend this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic," said Pusley, 28. He served two tours in Iraq, in Baghdad and Ramadi, and one in the Helmand province of Afghanistan before leaving active duty.

"Schools are kind of against the rules over there," he said. Over there, he stood guard for 24-hour stretches with a "battle buddy." The pair spelled each other through short breaks for bare necessities.

He has no battle buddy in this small Central California town near Modesto, about 80 miles south of Sacramento. But after reading a Facebook post urging soldiers be posted at every school in the wake of last week's tragic shooting at an elementary school in Connecticut, he decided to take action on his own.

To the surprise of his very pregnant wife, Kristina, Pusley got up early Wednesday and dressed in uniform. He walked out of the house and around the corner to the kindergarten through third-grade school at 7:30 a.m.

"I was just praying and hoping the principal would say yes," he said.

Principal Laura Fong did. "I said, 'Absolutely!' In light of all that's happened, this is especially the time to make sure we help students and families feel safe," she said.

Kristina Pusley, expecting in two weeks' time, brought future Hughson Elementary kindergartner Canon, 3, to visit daddy midmorning. "I'm proud of him for it," she said.

From 7:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. Wednesday, Pusley stood his post, greeting kids as they arrived and saluting the flag with the kindergarten class of Annette Diliberto.

"I just want to have a word to this community that I stand between them and any danger," he said. Asked about his lack of firepower, Pusley said, "I don't need to be armed to do this. I don't have a fear in the world that if someone came here, I'd have the strength and the ability to protect them."

But by Wednesday night, he was facing a different type of threat.

By wearing those fatigues instead of a dress uniform in public, the Marine reservist said, he violated Marine Corps protocol and could face up to a $10,000 fine and five years in prison. Worst of all for a proud veteran and provider for a growing family, "dishonorable" could be stamped across his honorable discharge.

He said he was warned by phone by former Marine Jordan Pritchard, who stood a similar guard earlier this week at an elementary school in Nashville, Tenn. Pritchard was notified by the U.S. Marine Corps that he was the subject of a formal investigation, Pusley said.

"I made a mistake. I shouldn't have worn it. I apologize to my community, my nation and the Marine Corps," Pusley said, adding he's written a letter of apology to President Barack Obama as well.

He's a stay-at-home dad right now. The family is living on savings and his Reserve pay, enjoying being safe and together after his years away.

He will not be at Hughson Elementary on Thursday, he said. Besides fears for his future and his family, Pusley was clearly taken aback by the publicity and attention showered on him at the school.

Many Hughson residents drove by; many stopped to shake his hand. A television crew checked in. Facebook spread the word.

School receptionist Angelee Martin said she spent the morning leaking tears every time she looked out at him. "Everybody feels so safe with him there. He just impresses me so much," Martin said.

Parent Danielle Batteate said having a Marine on campus was wonderful. "Somebody, out of their own heart, is actually protecting our children," she said.

Other parents posted the news on Facebook, bringing well-wishers who offered the Marine cup after cup of coffee. But too much coffee would mean leaving his post before school let out, so a growing collection of cups sat cooling around the flag pole.
.

That's a real American. :thumbsup: :patriot:

[GregWeld]

Stuart -- That's exactly my "position" on this whole sordid affair. I would like to NEVER hear about something like this again... but in fact... we all know that regardless of how many rules we design - we will. It's why I'd prefer to see guards of some type at the schools.


Here's something I did not know... about Mexico.

The country with the strictest gun laws in the world, and the one nearest to us, Mexico. It is virtually impossible under law in Mexico to own a firearm and look how well gun control is working there.


A look at what they changed in their constitution:


By the 1960s, fear of the growing anti-government sentiment and the growing number of citizens arming themselves, prompted the government to modify Article 10 of the Constitution and to enact the Federal Law of Firearms and Explosives. And so begun a systematic disarmament of the population by limiting gun ownership to small-caliber handguns, heavily restricting the right to carry outside the home, and ending a cultural attachment to firearms by shutting down gun stores, outlawing the private sale of firearms, closing down public shooting facilities, and putting in control of the federal government all firearm-related matters.


A look at their (Mexico) murder rate:


24 per 100,000


The U.S.A. murder rate:


4.2 per 100,000



Gotta love the government banning stuff!! Works like a charm every time. :thumbsup:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Unfortunately, this horrific tragedy was another in a long line of gun violence episodes that have ranged from places like Columbine, Virginia Tech, and Aurora to coffee shops in Lakewood to the corner of South Byron Street and McClintock Ave South in Seattle.

Wow, thats all that she listed. Did she refer to Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona being shot in the head and her assistant killed? Im shocked. 300 million guns in the US and only 5 incedents are in her mind. I bet 2 weeks from now she would only list 3. Well I probably could not but its not my job to know the facts just remember it happened.

but we also need to take specific action to bolster our current gun safety laws.
Thank you....but in one ear out the other. Guns used were not stored properly, access and training was given to a metally ill person. We need to enforce the laws not make absurd new ones that just cost more money to produce. How much does it cost to draft a bill and get it rolling again?

There is no question that we can and should limit access to the assault style weapons of war that are on our streets and that are too often being used to kill innocent people indiscriminately. I have repeatedly voted for an assault weapons ban and will do so again as soon as we can get a bill to the Senate floor.

again, out one ear bounced around a bit then lodged in a crevasse.

When will they learn, Ban threats sell more guns to people that can not control them properly and in turn potentially creates more gun violence.

[Bucketlist2012]

The Virginia Tech shooter killed 32 and injured 17 people...

All with just handguns..

A ban on assault weapons won't stop the violence if someone is determined to go crazy and kill people...

[GregWeld]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[parsonsj]

By the 1960s, fear of the growing anti-government sentiment and the growing number of citizens arming themselves, prompted the government to modify Article 10 of the Constitution and to enact the Federal Law of Firearms and Explosives. And so begun a systematic disarmament of the population by limiting gun ownership to small-caliber handguns, heavily restricting the right to carry outside the home, and ending a cultural attachment to firearms by shutting down gun stores, outlawing the private sale of firearms, closing down public shooting facilities, and putting in control of the federal government all firearm-related matters.


A look at their (Mexico) murder rate:


24 per 100,000


The U.S.A. murder rate:


4.2 per 100,000Cherry picking. A better comparison would be to other countries with similar histories, cultures, and rule of law that have strict gun laws and aren't in the middle of a virtual civil war. Have a look at western European countries, and you find something markedly different.

[GregWeld]

Cherry picking. A better comparison would be to other countries with similar histories, cultures, and rule of law that have strict gun laws and aren't in the middle of a virtual civil war. Have a look at western European countries, and you find something markedly different.



Do yourself a big favor - go back and actually read the thread - you'll see we've covered that ground already.

[Sieg]

Cherry picking. A better comparison would be to other countries with similar histories, cultures, and rule of law that have strict gun laws and aren't in the middle of a virtual civil war. Have a look at western European countries, and you find something markedly different.

Personally I'll rely on comparison data from the continent and region in which I reside...................especially when it's 15 hours on the Interstate from the Mexican boarder.

[GregWeld]

Personally I'll rely on comparison data from the continent and region in which I reside...................especially when it's 15 hours on the Interstate from the Mexican boarder.



Parsons comment was uniformed.... since he didn't track the rest of the conversation/thread but just decided his calling out a post was somehow essential nonetheless.

My Mexico inclusion was in response to the canned letter from Senator Murray -- that was trying to make a big point about how gun control was going to cure everything.

If there was "nit picking" being done -- then it would be to pull out one post from the 169 replies.

[GregWeld]

Here's a BRILLIANT strategy to control things..... it seems to be working well, huh??



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Fun%20Fotos/file-6.jpg

[parsonsj]

Parsons comment was uniformed.... since he didn't track the rest of the conversation/thread but just decided his calling out a post was somehow essential nonetheless.Sorry. Didn't mean to bring up facts that aren't welcome.

[Sieg]

Sorry. Didn't mean to bring up facts that aren't welcome.

Facts? Or broad statements that are not applicable to the control issues facing the country we live in?

[Shmoov69]

The good people can't defend theirselves against the bad people, and unfortunately the bad people are tied into the police in a lot of cities. I was there two weeks ago and talk to people about every other week that actually live there... And NOT in a vacation spot, in REAL Mexico!! Heck, the day before I was there one of the family members got held up/robbed outside their front door to their house by 3 teenage thugs with guns (that are outlawed BTW)... The house I was at!! And 5 people were hanging from the bridge going into Saltillo, and actually that's not too uncommon. The only people that have guns are the police/federalies and the bad guys/cartel, which in a lot of instances are one in the same!


Here's something I did not know... about Mexico.

The country with the strictest gun laws in the world, and the one nearest to us, Mexico. It is virtually impossible under law in Mexico to own a firearm and look how well gun control is working there.


A look at what they changed in their constitution:


By the 1960s, fear of the growing anti-government sentiment and the growing number of citizens arming themselves, prompted the government to modify Article 10 of the Constitution and to enact the Federal Law of Firearms and Explosives. And so begun a systematic disarmament of the population by limiting gun ownership to small-caliber handguns, heavily restricting the right to carry outside the home, and ending a cultural attachment to firearms by shutting down gun stores, outlawing the private sale of firearms, closing down public shooting facilities, and putting in control of the federal government all firearm-related matters.


A look at their (Mexico) murder rate:


24 per 100,000


The U.S.A. murder rate:


4.2 per 100,000



Gotta love the government banning stuff!! Works like a charm every time. :thumbsup:

[parsonsj]

Facts? Or broad statements that are not applicable to the control issues facing the country we live in?Facts. Simply put, western European democracies have murder rates around 1/4 of ours. That's not a broad statement, that's not an opinion. It's a fact.

[Sieg]

Facts. Simply put, western European democracies have murder rates around 1/4 of ours. That's not a broad statement, that's not an opinion. It's a fact.
And the rest of Europe?

[Shmoov69]

More tinfoil hat stuff..... Interesting none the less!:_paranoid

http://www.sott.net/article/254873-Sand

[Sieg]

More tinfoil hat stuff..... Interesting none the less!:_paranoid

http://www.sott.net/article/254873-Sand

Exceptional example of the accuracy the media in this country delivers, what is alarming is the number of people quote their reporting as fact. Sadly even the public officials put a political spin on it. They will typically spend as much time patting their comrades on the back as they do reporting information of the event.

[realcoray]

And the rest of Europe?

His point is that you need to account for cultural differences. Just because Mexico is right next door doesn't mean anything if you objectively look at cultures over a long horizon.

You can't cherry pick mexico as an example of gun bans failing for the same reason you can't cherry pick Japan to show the opposite. It's just basic logic.

Given our culture a gun ban isn't feasible nor likely to be effective, and some cities have demonstrated this.

That doesn't mean you can't do some gun related legislation that might make a difference, some of which we've talked about.

[Sieg]

The best gun control this country could ever have is a legal system that in the eye's of the offenders actually punishes in a manner that they find undesirable. Until then we will continue to fund over-crowded overly expensive "correctional" institutions.

Singapore is my personal favorite model.

[GregWeld]

The good people can't defend theirselves against the bad people, and unfortunately the bad people are tied into the police in a lot of cities. I was there two weeks ago and talk to people about every other week that actually live there... And NOT in a vacation spot, in REAL Mexico!! Heck, the day before I was there one of the family members got held up/robbed outside their front door to their house by 3 teenage thugs with guns (that are outlawed BTW)... The house I was at!! And 5 people were hanging from the bridge going into Saltillo, and actually that's not too uncommon. The only people that have guns are the police/federalies and the bad guys/cartel, which in a lot of instances are one in the same!




The old sentiment "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" is really pretty correct. Law abiding citizens would turn in their guns dutifully following the law of the land... Outlaws would probably not, since they don't follow the laws to begin with. Totally human nature IMHO.

[intocarss]

Penn Jillette tells the truth on daytime TV

ZYnnNrzCjkc#

[Ketzer]

Penn Jillette tells the truth on daytime TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZYnnNrzCjkc#!

Those 3 women are perfect examples of about 90% of our society. I would love to hear Penn's off air commentary.


Jeff-

[GregWeld]

A lot of people - given the circumstances - and sitting with those three -- would have just "padded" their comments and gone along with these three.

I'm listening to the NRA conference speech now... and I'm actually agreeing with him. He's saying "why are these killer games okay"? Why do we have armed guards at banks -- but not at schools. Our money is more important than our schools?

I'm not an NRA guy - but the speech is good common sense.

[Sieg]

I'm not an NRA guy - but the speech is good common sense.
I haven't been much of an NRA fan myself over the past 15-20 years. Too extreme in many ways which I perceive as detrimental to their cause.

In this case I felt their position while aggressive was appropriate and they put their money where the mouth is with a ready to implement plan that calls for immediate action. There is no doubt in my mind that their plan would have positive effects and our schools would become a less desirable target in the shooters planning process.

IMO - You will never stop people from committing these atrocities but you can implement measures that will redirect them to other gun free zones or targets of low resistance.

One has to wonder - if the media gave next to zero publicity to these shooters - how many would just end their internal battle by shooting themselves in seclusion?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

first off Jerry watches Wendy???? WTF.... LOL

Just one thing....as bad as it maybe 310 million guns in the US, 350 million people, 57% of the homes in the US are armed and only 11 incedents of mass killings in the US since 1965. I'd like to see the total death count.


By their logic if gun kill people then we are in trouble. They have some catching up to do.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I haven't been much of an NRA fan myself over the past 15-20 years. Too extreme in many ways which I perceive as detrimental to their cause.

In this case I felt their position while aggressive was appropriate and they put their money where the mouth is with a ready to implement plan that calls for immediate action. There is no doubt in my mind that their plan would have positive effects and our schools would become a less desirable target in the shooters planning process.

IMO - You will never stop people from committing these atrocities but you can implement measures that will redirect them to other gun free zones or targets of low resistance.

One has to wonder - if the media gave next to zero publicity to these shooters - how many would just end their internal battle by shooting themselves in seclusion?

3 days ago they were calling for it. Facebook poll had Armed teachers at 82%. I wish the NRA would just sit down with lawmakers and find a solution instead of building a gauntlet of lawyers making ready for an attack. They are doing the same and the anti-gunners, putting effort and funds towards a non solution.

[Ketzer]

"why are these killer games okay"?
.

Just sharing my thoughts on this GW, not agreeing or dis-agreeing.

Definately some games are all about gore, death, shooting mindlessly. They actually check IDs to buy these games, but 8-10 year old kids are still playing them because their parents allow it. P-A-R-E-N-T-S. Kids are spending more hours in front of the video babysitter (at home, in front of their parents) than they are in school. It's the game's fault? We need to outlaw the GAME?

The school shooter was old enough to purchase whatever video game he wanted and was old enough to decide how much time to spend in front of it. The last time I checked, there are no video games about assaults on schools. There are no FPS (first person shooters) games that I have seen against non-combatants period. In fact, the few that I've played myself would fail, deduct, penalize, whatever if you involved a non-combatant. The shooter targeted innocent children specifically. He wanted the least resistance with the most emotional damage. This was not learned from any game.

Lots of blame for inanimate objects. A particular game, a certain gun, not enough rules, laws. This evil was done by a man (a f'ing nutjob), not because he was autistic, not provoked by a video game or made easier by a particular weapon. There is no answer for it, there is no reason for it. Demanding something be done just out of frustration and fear is not the path.


Jeff-

[clill]

HUGHSON, Calif. —Marine Sgt. Craig Pusley was on duty Wednesday. Desert camo fatigues, knees slightly bent, the young father stood a self-imposed watch at Hughson Elementary School.

One man. No rifle. No pay. No breaks.

"When I enlisted, I swore to defend this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic," said Pusley, 28. He served two tours in Iraq, in Baghdad and Ramadi, and one in the Helmand province of Afghanistan before leaving active duty.

"Schools are kind of against the rules over there," he said. Over there, he stood guard for 24-hour stretches with a "battle buddy." The pair spelled each other through short breaks for bare necessities.

He has no battle buddy in this small Central California town near Modesto, about 80 miles south of Sacramento. But after reading a Facebook post urging soldiers be posted at every school in the wake of last week's tragic shooting at an elementary school in Connecticut, he decided to take action on his own.

To the surprise of his very pregnant wife, Kristina, Pusley got up early Wednesday and dressed in uniform. He walked out of the house and around the corner to the kindergarten through third-grade school at 7:30 a.m.

"I was just praying and hoping the principal would say yes," he said.

Principal Laura Fong did. "I said, 'Absolutely!' In light of all that's happened, this is especially the time to make sure we help students and families feel safe," she said.

Kristina Pusley, expecting in two weeks' time, brought future Hughson Elementary kindergartner Canon, 3, to visit daddy midmorning. "I'm proud of him for it," she said.

From 7:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. Wednesday, Pusley stood his post, greeting kids as they arrived and saluting the flag with the kindergarten class of Annette Diliberto.

"I just want to have a word to this community that I stand between them and any danger," he said. Asked about his lack of firepower, Pusley said, "I don't need to be armed to do this. I don't have a fear in the world that if someone came here, I'd have the strength and the ability to protect them."

But by Wednesday night, he was facing a different type of threat.

By wearing those fatigues instead of a dress uniform in public, the Marine reservist said, he violated Marine Corps protocol and could face up to a $10,000 fine and five years in prison. Worst of all for a proud veteran and provider for a growing family, "dishonorable" could be stamped across his honorable discharge.

He said he was warned by phone by former Marine Jordan Pritchard, who stood a similar guard earlier this week at an elementary school in Nashville, Tenn. Pritchard was notified by the U.S. Marine Corps that he was the subject of a formal investigation, Pusley said.

"I made a mistake. I shouldn't have worn it. I apologize to my community, my nation and the Marine Corps," Pusley said, adding he's written a letter of apology to President Barack Obama as well.

He's a stay-at-home dad right now. The family is living on savings and his Reserve pay, enjoying being safe and together after his years away.

He will not be at Hughson Elementary on Thursday, he said. Besides fears for his future and his family, Pusley was clearly taken aback by the publicity and attention showered on him at the school.

Many Hughson residents drove by; many stopped to shake his hand. A television crew checked in. Facebook spread the word.

School receptionist Angelee Martin said she spent the morning leaking tears every time she looked out at him. "Everybody feels so safe with him there. He just impresses me so much," Martin said.

Parent Danielle Batteate said having a Marine on campus was wonderful. "Somebody, out of their own heart, is actually protecting our children," she said.

Other parents posted the news on Facebook, bringing well-wishers who offered the Marine cup after cup of coffee. But too much coffee would mean leaving his post before school let out, so a growing collection of cups sat cooling around the flag pole.
.
And now the rest of the story. I'm not sure I want this guy hanging around schools.



Craig Pusley stands guard in front of Hughson Elementary School on Wednesday, Dec. 19, 2012. (credit: CBS13)
Filed under
Breaking News, Local, News, Syndicated Local
Related tags
Hughson Elementary School, U.S. Marine Corps

HUGHSON (CBS13) – The feel-good story of a former U.S. Marine standing guard outside a local elementary school doesn’t feel so good the day after.

It turns out Craig Pusley isn’t in the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, he didn’t serve overseas as he told CBS13 on Wednesday and he was discharged after less than a year with the second-lowest ranking in the Marines, private first class (E-2).

Pusley, who stood guard in uniform but unarmed outside Hughson Elementary School on Wednesday, was stationed at the Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego from July 2007 until April 2008, according to the Marines’ public affairs office. He was never deployed.

“I’m in shock, that’s very bad,” said one mother. “This isn’t something to be playing around with; this is serious and it’s scary.”

Pusley said Wednesday he was a sergeant in the Reserve after being on active duty in Afghanistan. He also claimed to be in the service for nearly 10 years, as well as serving two tours in Iraq.

Some parents hope school administrators will think twice before letting a man in uniform on campus.

“Check, just to make sure they are who they say they are, because anybody can do it, take advantage and something mad could happen,” the mother said.

Pusley was back in front of the school on Thursday but in a coat and tie. He said Wednesday he was prompted to take action after the tragic school shooting last week in Newtown, Conn. He left mid-morning, however, as questions surfaced about his past.

“I would take a bullet for any one of these kids whether I know them or not,” he told CBS 13 Wednesday. “If a gunman comes into this school, I’m not gonna kill him. I’m gonna drag him out of here. I’m gonna let the law take care of him.”

The school’s principal, Laura Fong, wouldn’t comment on Thursday because she said she didn’t know all the facts regarding the controversy. But she said it was a “very heartwarming thing” when the former Marine showed up Wednesday and his presence made her and the staff feel safer.

But once administrators learned he was lying about his service record, Pusley was kicked off campus.

CBS13 tried reaching out to him, but was unsuccessful.

[Sieg]

3 days ago they were calling for it. Facebook poll had Armed teachers at 82%.
Public opinion was arm teachers?

Potential problems with that is 7 of 10 teachers probably aren't capable and 9 of 10 are probably of the anti-gun mindset.

I wish the NRA would just sit down with lawmakers and find a solution instead of building a gauntlet of lawyers making ready for an attack.
I would imagine the NRA needs significant public support before the lawmakers will objectively listen to them.

They are doing the same and(as?) the anti-gunners, putting effort and funds towards a non solution.The Thurston HS Kip Kinkle shooting spree that took place 3 miles from my house. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip_Kinkel
I had numerous longtime close friends with children at the school that day thus somewhat understand the reality and community impact of these events. It certainly doesn't feel like it took place over 14 years ago. My oldest son will be attending Thurston HS next year and my daughter 2 years later which makes me somewhat vested in solutions of effective protection.

Since this event the local school districts have placed officers in the 7 local high schools. Demographically our metro area has approximately 175,000 people. 14 years later it has proven effective in what I would consider a region with a high ratio of firearms per household.

[GregWeld]

And now the rest of the story. I'm not sure I want this guy hanging around schools.



Good find Charley!


Sad - because all the had to do was just show up and say he was there for the children. No need to lie about the background. Now his good deed turns him into a jackass (no slam on your Camaro BTW).

[GregWeld]

To take a bigger picture view of what we're all really trying to wrap our heads around - pro or anti gun.... is that we would all probably agree that our schools are turning into targets. Now the question is - what can we do about it.

We all know there's many more nut jobs out there. They have access to guns - legally or illegally makes no difference to me. No laws scare them since they're suicidal nut jobs to begin with.

We guard planes - we guard banks - we're already guarding some high schools - we guard athletes at stadiums... Why rile people up and pit one group against another with more ineffective laws that stop nothing (we already have that proof - it is, after all, against the law to murder people isn't it?)... Let's just put some safety in place - which can be done TOMORROW if we'd just say that's what we're going to do for now. Then we can all calm down - have a good discussion - not a knee jerk reactionary bunch of bans - and work toward a real lasting resolution.

My sense is - even gun owners are not only appalled - but taken aback hearing how many guns are in circulation... I know I am. But I'm also a realist - knowing that just making another law that will only affect the "good guys" doesn't fix much. In fact - like some other nonsensical bills Congress has tried before (the boat tax - the fur tax etc) - will most likely result in more people being laid off.

We forget history all too quickly. My guess is England would like to take back the tax on sugar, and liquor, and tax stamps in general - that was the beginning of the Revolution (obviously there was more to this but I'm making a big picture statement here). And the Civil war was in part fought (big picture here) because the North wanted to dictate to the South regarding slavery.

We have larger problems brewing when one group starts to ride hurd over another group. This whole rich vs poor - democrats vs republicans - conservatives vs liberals... some of this stuff I think is really starting to resonate with people. That's when the nut jobs get going!

[nicks67ca]

Common sense doesn't prevail and in this instance you can already see that there is a divide and they are on opposite sides of the room and have their backs turned to each other. I think BOTH sides need to turn around and take a step towards each other.

[Vegas69]

Public opinion was arm teachers?

Potential problems with that is 7 of 10 teachers probably aren't capable and 9 of 10 are probably of the anti-gun mindset.


I would imagine the NRA needs significant public support before the lawmakers will objectively listen to them.

The Thurston HS Kip Kinkle shooting spree that took place 3 miles from my house. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip_Kinkel
I had numerous longtime close friends with children at the school that day thus somewhat understand the reality and community impact of these events. It certainly doesn't feel like it took place over 14 years ago. My oldest son will be attending Thurston HS next year and my daughter 2 years later which makes me somewhat vested in solutions of effective protection.

Since this event the local school districts have placed officers in the 7 local high schools. Demographically our metro area has approximately 175,000 people. 14 years later it has proven effective in what I would consider a region with a high ratio of firearms per household.

Try about 9.99 out of 10. I've done the research on females pulling the trigger and it's extremely low. It's not the answer and very likely is a problem.

[GregWeld]

Sen. Frank R. Lautenberg, D-N.J., said he was stunned by LaPierre's (of the NRA) comments.

"It is beyond belief that following the Newtown tragedy, the National Rifle Association's leaders want to fill our communities with guns and arm more Americans," he said in a statement.
"The NRA points the finger of blame everywhere and anywhere it can, but they cannot escape the devastating effects of their reckless comments and irresponsible lobbying tactics. The NRA leadership is wildly out of touch with its own members, responsible gun owners, and the American public who want to close dangerous loopholes and enact common-sense gun safety reform."




Oh yeah -- that's why guns sales are probably UP three or four hundred percent SINCE the Newtown massacre. My guess is that people that never thought of owning a gun have been out buying them.

We can say what we want -- but there's article after article about the meteoric RISE in guns sales.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing whether that's dumb or not -- I'm just laughing at the fact that so many responsible gun owners are upset with the NRA -- while they're busy feeling that way - they're standing in line at the gun store!

[Sieg]

I'm friends with the owners of the three most popular specialty gun shops in town, one is also the shooting range on I-5. They have been setting sales records the last three years mainly on personal defense weapons even with the new Cabela's store in town. The Cabela's store firearms department is moving an alarming number of handguns and assault weapons (black guns).

I also know the CEO of local department chain in the PNW that does not sell handguns just long guns but sells ammunition and reloading components for both and very competitive pricing has been experience supply issues for the last three years which he feels is due to hoarding and new gun owners. A gun is no good without ammo and vice versa.............one has a serial number and one doesn't. The gold mentality may be applicable to ammunition going forward.........those these situations typically neutralize in 6 months this time it may be different.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

And now the rest of the story. I'm not sure I want this guy hanging around schools.



Craig Pusley stands guard in front of Hughson Elementary School on Wednesday, Dec. 19, 2012. (credit: CBS13)
Filed under
Breaking News, Local, News, Syndicated Local
Related tags
Hughson Elementary School, U.S. Marine Corps

HUGHSON (CBS13) – The feel-good story of a former U.S. Marine standing guard outside a local elementary school doesn’t feel so good the day after.

It turns out Craig Pusley isn’t in the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, he didn’t serve overseas as he told CBS13 on Wednesday and he was discharged after less than a year with the second-lowest ranking in the Marines, private first class (E-2).

Pusley, who stood guard in uniform but unarmed outside Hughson Elementary School on Wednesday, was stationed at the Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego from July 2007 until April 2008, according to the Marines’ public affairs office. He was never deployed.

“I’m in shock, that’s very bad,” said one mother. “This isn’t something to be playing around with; this is serious and it’s scary.”

Pusley said Wednesday he was a sergeant in the Reserve after being on active duty in Afghanistan. He also claimed to be in the service for nearly 10 years, as well as serving two tours in Iraq.

Some parents hope school administrators will think twice before letting a man in uniform on campus.

“Check, just to make sure they are who they say they are, because anybody can do it, take advantage and something mad could happen,” the mother said.

Pusley was back in front of the school on Thursday but in a coat and tie. He said Wednesday he was prompted to take action after the tragic school shooting last week in Newtown, Conn. He left mid-morning, however, as questions surfaced about his past.

“I would take a bullet for any one of these kids whether I know them or not,” he told CBS 13 Wednesday. “If a gunman comes into this school, I’m not gonna kill him. I’m gonna drag him out of here. I’m gonna let the law take care of him.”

The school’s principal, Laura Fong, wouldn’t comment on Thursday because she said she didn’t know all the facts regarding the controversy. But she said it was a “very heartwarming thing” when the former Marine showed up Wednesday and his presence made her and the staff feel safer.

But once administrators learned he was lying about his service record, Pusley was kicked off campus.

CBS13 tried reaching out to him, but was unsuccessful.

maybe next time he'll wear his gille suit he made from his moms Snuggie instead. HHHOOAAAHHHH Marine HHHHOOOOAAAHHHH LOL

[GregWeld]

I'm friends with the owners of the three most popular specialty gun shops in town, one is also the shooting range on I-5. They have been setting sales records the last three years mainly on personal defense weapons even with the new Cabela's store in town. The Cabela's store firearms department is moving an alarming number of handguns and assault weapons (black guns).



My guess is that 100's of thousands of guns have been sold just because of the ban talk. It's an absolute boon to gun shops/dealers.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

same thing happened during the first Obama election.

[GregWeld]

Just read some responses to the NRA call for staffing schools in the local news paper.... and it's interesting that the SPLIT is so obvious - the elected officials think guarding the schools is a ridiculous idea - and they clamor for gun bans... but every police department (except one) thought it was a good idea and already had "SRO's" (School Resource Officers) in place. There was - of course - the question of cost and who pays. That is a natural consideration. Thus my earlier proposal to tax guns and ammo etc heavily.

King County Sheriffs Dept. --- the largest population base in the state --- has been having budget issues for YEARS...


http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2012/12/local-reaction-to-nra-proposal-to-put-armed-security-in-nations-schools/

[Sieg]

My guess is that 100's of thousands of guns have been sold just because of the ban talk. It's an absolute boon to gun shops/dealers.

The last three years have been above "factored" historical sales, all 3 of the dealers have been around for 20+ years. It's like selling Harley's in the early 90's :D

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Public opinion was arm teachers?

Potential problems with that is 7 of 10 teachers probably aren't capable and 9 of 10 are probably of the anti-gun mindset.


I would imagine the NRA needs significant public support before the lawmakers will objectively listen to them.

The Thurston HS Kip Kinkle shooting spree that took place 3 miles from my house. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip_Kinkel
I had numerous longtime close friends with children at the school that day thus somewhat understand the reality and community impact of these events. It certainly doesn't feel like it took place over 14 years ago. My oldest son will be attending Thurston HS next year and my daughter 2 years later which makes me somewhat vested in solutions of effective protection.

Since this event the local school districts have placed officers in the 7 local high schools. Demographically our metro area has approximately 175,000 people. 14 years later it has proven effective in what I would consider a region with a high ratio of firearms per household.


Yes, up until this morning it was a good idea to arm teachers and a popular idea. I am willing to bet it has dropped significantly since it was now suggested by the NRA spokesman. It would be totally voluntary as it is already in some states.

http://www.nashvillescene.com/pitw/archives/2012/12/18/tennessee-legislators-leading-the-call-to-arm-teachers

http://www.wsbtv.com/videos/news/teachers-speak-out-on-lawmakers-call-to-arms/vknjT/

http://www.covnews.com/section/12/article/35341/


Even then it would be talks instead of Neanderthal style bantering.

[fleetus macmullitz]

Saw this today...

Rick Godwin ‏@ricklgodwin (https://twitter.com/ricklgodwin)

(https://twitter.com/ricklgodwin) "Was listening to several celebrities outraged at guns. No one should have them. However their bodyguards carry guns?? Hypocrisy moment!"

[57hemicuda]

The gun Genie is already out of the bottle, there is no way to put it back in. You could never collect every weapon, and once again only the bad people would have them.

Some blame this craziness on violence on TV and movies. Hell when we were kids, John Wayne, and Clint Eastwood killed everyone in movies, and we never went crazy. I still say its the decline of the family, Mom isn't able to spend the time in little Tommy because she is at work. I don't know what the answer is, but I know more knee jerk laws aren't going to fix anything. Just gives our stand up politicians more face time on TV, and they can tell us how much they care, while they are sticking the screws to us.

[Sieg]

The gun Genie is already out of the bottle, there is no way to put it back in. You could never collect every weapon, and once again only the bad people would have them.

Some blame this craziness on violence on TV and movies. Hell when we were kids, John Wayne, and Clint Eastwood killed everyone in movies, and we never went crazy. I still say its the decline of the family, Mom isn't able to spend the time in little Tommy because she is at work. I don't know what the answer is, but I know more knee jerk laws aren't going to fix anything. Just gives our stand up politicians more face time on TV, and they can tell us how much they care, while they are sticking the screws to us.
Agree on all points. The growth of dual income parents is major element at the heart of declining values and ethics within the younger generations IMO.
:(

[GregWeld]

Saw this today...

Rick Godwin ‏@ricklgodwin (https://twitter.com/ricklgodwin)

(https://twitter.com/ricklgodwin) "Was listening to several celebrities outraged at guns. No one should have them. However their bodyguards carry guns?? Hypocrisy moment!"


That's funny.

When you think about it... Obama probably has 10 or 15 guys with machine guns within yards of him -- and snipers with 50 cals on every rooftop -- but that's OKAY! Why? Because he trusts those people -- so it must not be about guns - it must be about the people with the guns.

[Ketzer]

Dammit GW, If you don't stop trying to apply logic to this... :willy: We are at knee-jerk defcon 5 and you keep trying to be rational!



Jeff-

[Shmoov69]

More tinfoil hat..... I've seen this stuff on a local car site, I'm not searching this stuff out myself. BUT..... It makes you think for sure!!


"This is coming from a non-bias opinion on gun control, but there ARE a few obvious things, that make you wonder.

Watch this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=fn_nYrUmRkE

Then this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKWgCRBR5qE

Then this O_o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShgdN8arHCc

[nicks67ca]

More tinfoil hat..... I've seen this stuff on a local car site, I'm not searching this stuff out myself. BUT..... It makes you think for sure!!


"This is coming from a non-bias opinion on gun control, but there ARE a few obvious things, that make you wonder.

Watch this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=fn_nYrUmRkE

Then this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKWgCRBR5qE

Then this O_o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShgdN8arHCc

Make you think that there are a lot of people with to much time on their hands. These links and claims are total BS. I know MULTIPLE families that lost members and to put these types of claims out there is just nonsense. If these were indeed actors wouldn't you think some of the other families would come out and say...hey thats not the same father I met at PTA meetings, thats not the same mother I sat next to in church, thats not the same uncle i played football with. Is the media, the left, the right, and 5 minutes of fame people are playing this for all its worth and its makes me sick. Not as sick as these "conspiracy theory" people. Now the medical examiner probably wasn't the best person to speak but the idiotic questions by the media was just as insulting.

[Sieg]

That's funny.

When you think about it... Obama probably has 10 or 15 guys with machine guns within yards of him -- and snipers with 50 cals on every rooftop -- but that's OKAY! Why? Because he trusts those people -- so it must not be about guns - it must be about the people with the guns.
It would be interesting to see what kind of hell would break out if there was an attempted public attack of any scale on Obama............if the media would air any of it.

PS -You left out security for Air Force 1.........think it's up in the air all by it's lonesome? That's one section of the military budget that won't get cut. :D

[Vince@Meanstreets]

It would be interesting to see what kind of hell would break out if there was an attempted public attack of any scale on Obama............if the media would air any of it.

PS -You left out security for Air Force 1.........think it's up in the air all by it's lonesome? That's one section of the military budget that won't get cut. :D

ahhh ok we just got flagged by homeland...wave everyone:thumbsup:

[Spiffav8]

Wow..I'm off the grid for a few and everything goes crazy. Certainly a tragic incident that we all must work to lessen the chances of happening again.

I just read all 22 pages and there are a few good ideas here. Sadly, they all have draw backs.

Todd is on the right track of having an armed officer in every school. No he/she can't prevent this from happening, but it would add a layer of protection and be a show of force. A show of force can often be a huge deterrent. Obviously ill doers of this type pic targets that are unprotected. Odds of success are in their favor. Take that away and there's a chance they will move on. Sadly, in Las Vegas the school police don't get involved when sh!t hits the fan. Instead they stand back and call in Metro. Reason is the school district policy. Still, it's a great idea.

I also like Todds idea of a required training course when purchasing your first firearm, but believe it should be taken a bit further. I'd like to see that for every type of firearm purchased. Semi-auto hand gun, revolver, rifle and shotgun. Additionally, I think that training should cover the safe storage of guns in ones homes. Todd mentioned that he attended a hunters safety course, something I have also done. A great program, but not nearly enough and hunting isn't what it used to be.

Education is a huge factor in all of this (and a lot of other things). That starts in the home!! Parents who own firearms need to teach their children. Yes we have violent video games and movies, but that's not an excuse. I know several young men and woman (under 14-ish) who's fathers have spent taken the time to educate their children on the subject of guns and it's been nothing but positive.

I wish more of you would try and look at it (the best you can) from a criminals point of view. Where and how would you commit your crime? Only then can you come up with an idea of how to protect your self from being a victim. There isn't one answer to it, every situation is going to be different. Doesn't matter if you carry or not, don't be sheep is what I'm trying to say.

I hope that none of you have been a victim of a violent crime and that you never well be. Me...it was a lot closer than I care for. I won't go into a big story on it, but will leave it at a violent rapist, who beat his victims to within an inch of their life was after a former girl friend with whom I lived with. Knowing a sick person has been in your home and jacking off your girl friends undies drawer would make any man angry. It was at that point in my life that I started to carry (as did the girl friend). The police where well aware of what was happening, but admitted that they are only reactive. My point? What do or would you do if you where face to face with someone intent of doing harm to you or your loved one? What would you do to protect them if you're not there?

We all keep our G-Machines locked inside and insured. We have locked doors on our homes and security systems for protection. Heck, we even wear shoes to protect our feet. Why wouldn't you protect your right to life in every way possible? I know that some people are not comfortable with guns and I understand that. Still they should have some level of protection.

The talk of limiting magazine capacity won't solve anything. Anyone can drop a mag and insert another rapidly with practice. Doesn't matter if it's a hand gun or an AR style rifle. I'm not the fastest guy out there, but it takes me about 2 seconds with my Colt M4 and less with my SIG P226. If you do carry and are forced into a employ your hand gun defensively, you know you're probably not going to connect with every round. Scarey as you are fighting for you life. You probably won't have the opportunity to reload or may not have a second magazine. In that type of a situation you'll want as many rounds as your gun is capable of holding, so you can connect and eliminate the threat.

Talk of banning AR style rifles is equally as silly. Your washing machine can be made into a bomb. No joke and it doesn't take much. Every time you walk into the local Gas N Go you have all the items needed to make several types of weapons or explosive. A weapon that can cause a great deal of damage is always accessible is my point.

Yes, I am Pro Gun. Why? I'm a realist and I know that there are dangers in life and realize that bad people will do me harm if I allow it. I do all I can to protect my loved ones and myself from harm on every level. I even protect you and your family every time you are a passenger on my airplane...yes, I have a gun in the cockpit. I am not a bad person because I carry or because of the type of firearms I own.

Guys, don't count on someone else for you safety. Be aware and be prepared. If a firearm isn't for you fine, but respect those who are. They are good people to. Be smart and educate your self on guns, even if you are against them. If you own one, practice with it and be proficient. Seek out additional training and educate your children on them (speaking safety here). Let's be smart about it.

[GregWeld]

I've said this previously -- that the mere mention of a ban would be a boon for sales... Well -- check out this headline!


http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-gun-sales-brownells-20121224,0,7596545.story

[Spiffav8]

I've said this previously -- that the mere mention of a ban would be a boon for sales... Well -- check out this headline!


http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-gun-sales-brownells-20121224,0,7596545.story

The crazy run was on 30 round magazines which can't be found anywhere. Seems like anything that holds more or less is still to be had.

Funny how the media can't get things right. The Bushmaster used was an XM15 not an AR15. Maybe Google isn't working on their end. :rolleyes:

[intocarss]

The crazy run was on 30 round magazines which can't be found anywhere. Seems like anything that holds more or less is still to be had.

Funny how the media can't get things right. The Bushmaster used was an XM15 not an AR15. Maybe Google isn't working on their end. :rolleyes:

Does the media ever get anything right?? :lol: :lol:

[Sieg]

The talk of limiting magazine capacity won't solve anything. Anyone can drop a mag and insert another rapidly with practice. Doesn't matter if it's a hand gun or an AR style rifle. I'm not the fastest guy out there, but it takes me about 2 seconds with my Colt M4 and less with my SIG P226. If you do carry and are forced into a employ your hand gun defensively, you know you're probably not going to connect with every round. Scarey as you are fighting for you life. You probably won't have the opportunity to reload or may not have a second magazine. In that type of a situation you'll want as many rounds as your gun is capable of holding, so you can connect and eliminate the threat.


The entire post was well said Curtis :thumbsup:

To back the mag capacity debate, when shooting league with my .45 we shot one series that had a timed 10 yard standard torso target, you shot 12 rounds, 6 rounds in two mags, start with a mag in the gun chamber open gun on the table, hands in the air, commence on the firing line signal with 8 seconds to complete the series. All but a few of the 40 shooters could complete that successfully. I'm not tooting my horn but pressing the point of semi-auto and low capacity mag capabilities, 70% of the time shooting that series I would put all 12 in the 10 ring (target also has an X ring). I'm also pretty fast with a revolver and speed loaders. Point is with a little practice the speeds can be surprising.

[GregWeld]

If some looney-toons wants to - he could easily kill all the kids and teachers in two or more classrooms of kindergarten and first graders with a friggin' baseball bat!

What's a bunch of kindergarten kids going to do to an adult bent on committing mayhem (sorry Stielow!)? ZERO...

The whole raging gun debate is just that - a raging debate. It solves absolutely nothing.

Today we read about a whack job ex con killing volunteer firefighters... It never stops. His gun was ILLEGAL! Does he care about laws? He killed his own grandmother with a f'n' hammer! Laws mean nothing to people like this.

Until people of the world get that, there's not much to talk about.

[Sieg]

Today we read about a whack job ex con killing volunteer firefighters... It never stops. His gun was ILLEGAL! Does he care about laws? He killed his own grandmother with a f'n' hammer! Laws mean nothing to people like this.

Until people of the world get that, there's not much to talk about.
One of the fundamentals that is consistently over-looked/not factored or what-ever IMO is the people making the laws look at the punishment from THEIR perspective. What is a deterrent to a law abiding citizen is not in the least a deterrent to a seasoned criminal. Until we start writing laws and delivering punishment that gets the attention of the seasoned criminal we're just pouring water in a bucket full of holes.

[FETorino]

If some looney-toons wants to - he could easily kill all the kids and teachers in two or more classrooms of kindergarten and first graders with a friggin' baseball bat!

What's a bunch of kindergarten kids going to do to an adult bent on committing mayhem (sorry Stielow!)? ZERO...

The whole raging gun debate is just that - a raging debate. It solves absolutely nothing.

Today we read about a whack job ex con killing volunteer firefighters... It never stops. His gun was ILLEGAL! Does he care about laws? He killed his own grandmother with a f'n' hammer! Laws mean nothing to people like this.

Until people of the world get that, there's not much to talk about.


Crazy people will kill using whatever method available. The worst school homicide in the US was not gun related.

The lousy reality is you can't protect everyone from everything and the more you try to the less freedom will remain.

There isn't one magic bullet that will cure the ills of society. It's not that I believe we should do nothing but we should all take a breath and make sure we are thinking clearly when we discuss what to do.

I own guns. I think anyone without a criminal record by the age of 30 who goes through proper training should be allowed to conceal cary. I also don't think that weapons that are easily converted to automatic or that can accept magazines over 10 rounds should be sold to the public. JMO and those things won't solve anything over night but in the long run it couldn't hurt.

But then again I think we should stop sending billions in foreign aid to other countries while we ignore the mental health of our own citizens. If we cracked down on people who game the entitlement system and focused funds on those members of society who really can't function on their own that sure wouldn't hurt.

The list of things that need to be fixed are long. Where to start?

Just as info I posted the worst school disaster info below.



The Bath School disaster is the name given to the violent attacks of May 18, 1927 in Bath Township, Michigan, perpetrated by Andrew Kehoe, that killed 38 elementary school children,[Note 1] six adults, and also injured at least 58 other people. Kehoe first killed his wife, fire-bombed his farm and set off a major explosion in the Bath Consolidated School, and then committed suicide by detonating a final explosion in his truck. It is the deadliest mass murder in a school in United States history.[1]
Andrew Kehoe, the 55 year old school board treasurer, was angry after his defeat in the Spring 1926 election for township clerk. He was thought to have planned his "murderous revenge" after that public defeat and he had a reputation for difficulty on the school board and in personal dealings. In addition, in June 1926 he was notified that his mortgage was going to be foreclosed.[2] For much of the next year, a neighbor noticed Kehoe had stopped working on his farm and thought he might be planning suicide. During that period, Kehoe carried out steps in his plan to destroy the school and his farm by purchasing and hiding explosives.
Kehoe's wife was ill with tuberculosis, and he had stopped making mortgage payments; he was under pressure for foreclosure. Some time between May 16 and the morning of May 18, 1927, Kehoe murdered his wife by hitting her on the head. On the morning of May 18 at about 8:45 a.m., he exploded incendiary devices in his house and farm buildings and the ensuing fire destroyed them.
Almost simultaneously, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many schoolchildren. Kehoe had used a timed detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of incendiary pyrotol, which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers gathered at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and used a rifle to detonate dynamite inside his shrapnel-filled truck, killing himself, the school superintendent, and several others nearby, as well as injuring more bystanders. During rescue efforts at the school, searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol connected to a timing device set for the same time as the first explosions; the material was hidden throughout the basement of the south wing. Kehoe had apparently intended to blow up and destroy the entire school.

[Spiffav8]

If some looney-toons wants to - he could easily kill all the kids and teachers in two or more classrooms of kindergarten and first graders with a friggin' baseball bat!

What's a bunch of kindergarten kids going to do to an adult bent on committing mayhem (sorry Stielow!)? ZERO...

The whole raging gun debate is just that - a raging debate. It solves absolutely nothing.

Today we read about a whack job ex con killing volunteer firefighters... It never stops. His gun was ILLEGAL! Does he care about laws? He killed his own grandmother with a f'n' hammer! Laws mean nothing to people like this.

Until people of the world get that, there's not much to talk about.

Greg you have a solid point. The paper laws are written on does nothing to stop a criminal. In this case of the gun debate, it's the lawful citizens who are being punished. For what? Criminals always look for an opportunity and an easy target. Someone who is aware and prepared is a deterrent.

I recall seeing in one of Todds posts that a person with a hand gun can't defend against an attacker with an Assault Rifle. At a distance that's true. Not so much in a close quarters environment. It was mentioned that the female Principle of the school lunged to stop the attacker. She was close enough to engage the shooter (regardless of what type of firearm he had) to engage him. Same with the CCW holder in the OR mall shooting. Two similar, yet very different situations. The Principle most likely had a better chance of success (wasn't there, so I can't say for sure). The CCW guy at the mall, made a wise choice knowing that the chances of collateral damage was much higher.

[GregWeld]

Greg you have a solid point. The paper laws are written on does nothing to stop a criminal. In this case of the gun debate, it's the lawful citizens who are being punished. For what? Criminals always look for an opportunity and an easy target. Someone who is aware and prepared is a deterrent.

I recall seeing in one of Todds posts that a person with a hand gun can't defend against an attacker with an Assault Rifle. At a distance that's true. Not so much in a close quarters environment. It was mentioned that the female Principle of the school lunged to stop the attacker. She was close enough to engage the shooter (regardless of what type of firearm he had) to engage him. Same with the CCW holder in the OR mall shooting. Two similar, yet very different situations. The Principle most likely had a better chance of success (wasn't there, so I can't say for sure). The CCW guy at the mall, made a wise choice knowing that the chances of collateral damage was much higher.



The VOCAL minority will clamor -- and the SILENT majority (some 60% of homes in America have guns) will be silent...

This is all about the non gun people rising up and using any "evidence" they can to press their case/advantage... and we the silent people will probably just sit back and let them because we won't want to offend anyone.

[Spiffav8]

The VOCAL minority will clamor -- and the SILENT majority (some 60% of homes in America have guns) will be silent...

This is all about the non gun people rising up and using any "evidence" they can to press their case/advantage... and we the silent people will probably just sit back and let them because we won't want to offend anyone.

That has been the case in the past, but I'm under the impression that more and more gun owners are becoming more vocal. My wife has her CCW and is active on a few forums for gals that carry. She's shared more than a few stories of situations where a gal was forced to use her firearm to protect her self. The main purpose is bring awareness and educate the members of that community. Often those people who have had to use their weapon in self defense don't want to talk about what happened, but that's changed with all the anti gun talk against lawful citizens. They are starting to talk more openly about what happened, bringing the positive side of firearm ownership into the main stream. The media of course doesn't want to hear it, good news doesn't sell. Neither do the hard core anti gun types. It's a slow change, but a welcome one. Theirs nothing like learning from someone who's been there and done that.

I'll say it again. Education is the key.

[IMPALA MAN]

I think more accountability would also help....in some cases. It's already been established that these deranged people in many cases want attention as long as they can get it. If they were to be held accountable...on the spot, they may rethink their actions.
Check out this story: (the short of it)
Man beats girlfriend.
Grandfather tells boyfriend to stop.
Boyfriend decides to attack grandfather.
Grandfather shoots boyfriend.
Boyfriend dies.
Police file zero charges.
Result...accountability mucho tax dollars saved.
The guy probably didn't do it for attention, but I guarentee, he was held accountable.
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2012/dec/24/man-found-slain-in-front-yard/

Today when little Johnny doesn't listen in school, it's a disease. Everything is a disease's fault instead of the persons fault. I too had a listening problem when I was a child. My father had an "over the household" cure. He kicked my ass until I listened. He held me so accountable that it only took one ass kicking to cure my "disease". And he didn't even go to med school!

[Ketzer]

Today when little Johnny doesn't listen in school, it's a disease. Everything is a disease's fault instead of the persons fault. I too had a listening problem when I was a child. My father had an "over the household" cure. He kicked my ass until I listened. He held me so accountable that it only took one ass kicking to cure my "disease". And he didn't even go to med school!

There are a lot of legitimate medical conditions. There are also some pretty significant learning disabilities in some kids. Some cannot be cured with boot to butt. That being said, I wholeheartedly agree with the point you are trying to make. A halfway decent parent can cure 99.9% of all these "syndromes" with a little bit of attention and a lot of discipline. I thank my mom today for the a$$whippings I got and know I should have gotten many more. Kids desperately need rules, accountability, and respect for others.



Jeff-

[Vegas69]

Greg you have a solid point. The paper laws are written on does nothing to stop a criminal. In this case of the gun debate, it's the lawful citizens who are being punished. For what? Criminals always look for an opportunity and an easy target. Someone who is aware and prepared is a deterrent.

I recall seeing in one of Todds posts that a person with a hand gun can't defend against an attacker with an Assault Rifle. At a distance that's true. Not so much in a close quarters environment. It was mentioned that the female Principle of the school lunged to stop the attacker. She was close enough to engage the shooter (regardless of what type of firearm he had) to engage him. Same with the CCW holder in the OR mall shooting. Two similar, yet very different situations. The Principle most likely had a better chance of success (wasn't there, so I can't say for sure). The CCW guy at the mall, made a wise choice knowing that the chances of collateral damage was much higher.

It definitely wasn't me that made that statement. An educated and trained individual with a hand gun has a very good chance of ending the life of an individual with an assault rifle. In close quarters and that's exactly what a school promotes. :cheers:

[GregWeld]

There are a lot of legitimate medical conditions. There are also some pretty significant learning disabilities in some kids. Some cannot be cured with boot to butt. That being said, I wholeheartedly agree with the point you are trying to make. A halfway decent parent can cure 99.9% of all these "syndromes" with a little bit of attention and a lot of discipline. I thank my mom today for the a$$whippings I got and know I should have gotten many more. Kids desperately need rules, accountability, and respect for others.



Jeff-




I don't remember ANY kids in my schools with learning disabilities growing up. I was in school in the 50's & 60's. Graduated HS in 1971. If you were a problem in class - you were sent to the Principals office... if you were a real problem - you probably got "spats" with a board! You spent time after school in a room by yourself or with other problem children that day. Trust me - I was one of those.

It wasn't until my son was finally diagnosed with A.D.D. that I discovered I also had that. It explains a few things looking back. BUT -- I never had meds - and I got a good education. I didn't hate school nor did I hate the teachers. I missed a bunch of critical "points" that I later had to go back and figure out... but when you're an adult - you can think about what parts are missing and take corrective action. If you are a responsible person and want to actually succeed.

My son graduated College... and his A.D.D. is way worse than mine! Neither of us is A.D.H.D (the hyperactive version - even though Charley calls me the Tasmanian Devil :D ).


We were taught RESPECT! And there was a price to be paid if you weren't respectful! That respect was to be shown to EVERYONE including your fellow classmates. You could learn that the easy way - or through the seat of your pants. :thumbsup:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

The VOCAL minority will clamor -- and the SILENT majority (some 60% of homes in America have guns) will be silent...

This is all about the non gun people rising up and using any "evidence" they can to press their case/advantage... and we the silent people will probably just sit back and let them because we won't want to offend anyone.

I feel we are better prepared and educated since the last ban. With sites like Calguns.net and its legal backing I envision a long battle. Advantage goes to pro-, better funded and ready for the fight. Historically the anti's are under funded, devotion to fight is limited and often react too late. Point, the original assult weapons ban expired years ago...banned guns have been in circulation for 7 years. They react now.

another factor....
"Gun rights groups have given more than $17 million in... contributions to federal candidates and party committees since 1989. Nearly $15 million, or 85 percent of the total, has gone to Republicans. The National Rifle Association is by far the gun rights lobby's biggest donor, having contributed more than $14 million over the past 15 years.

"Gun control advocates... contribute far less money than their rivals -- a total of nearly $1.7 million since 1989, of which 94 percent went to Democrats."




I don't remember ANY kids in my schools with learning disabilities growing up. I was in school in the 50's & 60's. Graduated HS in 1971. If you were a problem in class - you were sent to the Principals office... if you were a real problem - you probably got "spats" with a board! You spent time after school in a room by yourself or with other problem children that day. Trust me - I was one of those.

It wasn't until my son was finally diagnosed with A.D.D. that I discovered I also had that. It explains a few things looking back. BUT -- I never had meds - and I got a good education. I didn't hate school nor did I hate the teachers. I missed a bunch of critical "points" that I later had to go back and figure out... but when you're an adult - you can think about what parts are missing and take corrective action. If you are a responsible person and want to actually succeed.

My son graduated College... and his A.D.D. is way worse than mine! Neither of us is A.D.H.D (the hyperactive version - even though Charley calls me the Tasmanian Devil :D ).


We were taught RESPECT! And there was a price to be paid if you weren't respectful! That respect was to be shown to EVERYONE including your fellow classmates. You could learn that the easy way - or through the seat of your pants. :thumbsup:

Its tough, everything is very sensitive. Now the government has a say on how you will raise your child. Time outs? Go to your room? are you serious? I would have loved a time out growing up.

Recently a teacher was fired for locking a child in a room for acting out and hitting a fellow student. Schools getting sued for verbal abuse when a teacher confronted a child who was cussing at other students.

respect starts at home and some kids are not getting it.

[GregWeld]

What kind of law is going to protect ANYONE from this nut job? Seriously....




Spengler killed himself as seven houses burned around him.



Earlier, police said Spengler had left a three-page typewritten note saying he wanted to burn down the neighborhood and "do what I like doing best, killing people".

[Vince@Meanstreets]

they might ban fire. stocking up on matches and flint sticks.

[Shmoov69]

they might ban fire. stocking up on matches and flint sticks.

Nope, that's not on the agenda!!

[Spiffav8]

I feel we are better prepared and educated since the last ban. With sites like Calguns.net and its legal backing I envision a long battle. Advantage goes to pro-, better funded and ready for the fight. Historically the anti's are under funded, devotion to fight is limited and often react too late. Point, the original assult weapons ban expired years ago...banned guns have been in circulation for 7 years. They react now.

another factor....
"Gun rights groups have given more than $17 million in... contributions to federal candidates and party committees since 1989. Nearly $15 million, or 85 percent of the total, has gone to Republicans. The National Rifle Association is by far the gun rights lobby's biggest donor, having contributed more than $14 million over the past 15 years.

"Gun control advocates... contribute far less money than their rivals -- a total of nearly $1.7 million since 1989, of which 94 percent went to Democrats."






Its tough, everything is very sensitive. Now the government has a say on how you will raise your child. Time outs? Go to your room? are you serious? I would have loved a time out growing up.

Recently a teacher was fired for locking a child in a room for acting out and hitting a fellow student. Schools getting sued for verbal abuse when a teacher confronted a child who was cussing at other students.

respect starts at home and some kids are not getting it.

We can't count on a single source (not saying that was your point) such as the NRA. At the moment the gun control advocates are getting a lot of bang for their 1.7 million. It's up to each of us to stand up for all our rights. We each need to do what we can to support each other at times like these, regardless of the issue.

I haven't heard anything on the Gov. attempting to control the way a family disciplines children in the home and agree that putting limitations on parents is over stepping their bounds by a great deal, if that's the case. However, it is a good message to parents. As I've been saying, it starts at home. Yes there are cases where a child may have an illness that causes problems and a few or our members have mentioned the challenges they face due to that kind of thing. I can only imagine how hard that must be and would love to see more information and help available to them. Americans are a pretty giving bunch and there's not better place to give assistance than to our own. The right kind of help that is.

It sounds like something our elected officials could do, is put in place some solid laws that protect teachers/schools from stupid lawsuits. I have several friends who are teachers and the challenges they face on a daily basis just is sometimes ridiculous. Again, we the people need to stand up and demand that our educators and the education system are protected smartly and fairly.

I don't have children, but I believe that our education system is very important and support it 100%. Your children are important to me. They are part of my future as well.

On another note: Todd, sorry buddy I may have confused who said that. I was honestly a bit surprised.

[Spiffav8]

I think more accountability would also help....in some cases. It's already been established that these deranged people in many cases want attention as long as they can get it. If they were to be held accountable...on the spot, they may rethink their actions.
Check out this story: (the short of it)
Man beats girlfriend.
Grandfather tells boyfriend to stop.
Boyfriend decides to attack grandfather.
Grandfather shoots boyfriend.
Boyfriend dies.
Police file zero charges.
Result...accountability mucho tax dollars saved.
The guy probably didn't do it for attention, but I guarentee, he was held accountable.
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2012/dec/24/man-found-slain-in-front-yard/

Today when little Johnny doesn't listen in school, it's a disease. Everything is a disease's fault instead of the persons fault. I too had a listening problem when I was a child. My father had an "over the household" cure. He kicked my ass until I listened. He held me so accountable that it only took one ass kicking to cure my "disease". And he didn't even go to med school!


This actually happens more than you'll hear about. My wife being a dispatcher has to be pretty savvy on Nevada law and is a great source of information. Sad part is that there is very little attention given to cases like this. I wish they would be discussed and studied more often. They are lessons that we all can learn from.

As for the disease's being at fault....that's a byproduct of our legal system. It seems like every case we hear about the argument is that it's not the criminals fault and they are argued as being a victim. Often a victim of our society. I ask, how are we at fault for someone who breaks the law. Everyone by the age of five, knows the basics of right and wrong. The actual cases where there is a problem (in the schools or otherwise) are rare. Those cases deserve more attention. A student who has special needs, should get the required help. Forcing a student who has special needs into a regular classroom is very wrong. As Todd stated, his wife Kelly has more than one and the challenges of those students slows the progress of the rest of the class. It's a delicate situation, but why do we allow those types of issues to have a negative impact on an entire class? In the end, it becomes a drag on our society as a whole.

[intocarss]

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/20399062/the-very-politically-incorrect-truth-about-the-second-amendment

[Ron in SoCal]

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/20399062/the-very-politically-incorrect-truth-about-the-second-amendment

That is very interesting Jerry. I wonder if it is really supported by Consitutional law theorists/educators/jurists or is just an editorial opinion in a pro-gun state?

I hope the current admisintration does not trample on the second ammendment. :(

[intocarss]

That is very interesting Jerry. I wonder if it is really supported by Consitutional law theorists/educators/jurists or is just an editorial opinion in a pro-gun state?

I hope the current admisintration does not trample on the second ammendment. :(

Look at this moron
pLPmj0sYG98





Then there is this..

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2013/1/illinois-gun-and-magazine-ban-and-registration-schemes-pass-in-senate-public-health-committee-tonight-in-springfield.aspx

[GregWeld]

While that guy was talking (or was it droning on) I was re-loading.... and at one point I had my AimPoint laser between his eyes.


:unibrow: :lol:

[Spiffav8]

In my search for more information on the gun subject, I came across this:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

I'll warn you that it is 42 pages of questions and comparisons, but well worth the 10 minutes it'll take you.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Look at this moron


Then there is this..

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2013/1/illinois-gun-and-magazine-ban-and-registration-schemes-pass-in-senate-public-health-committee-tonight-in-springfield.aspx

Thank god dip stick holes like this one don't have or want to own firearms. Only thing my guns have ever killed was my bank roll.

2nd amenment was created to kill Brits? I know the comedy sucks, but to kill someone over it? Nut case.

[intocarss]

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/mother-of-two-surprises-burglar-with-five-gunshots/nTnGR/

The Loganville mother of two assumed the knocks on her front door Friday afternoon were from a solicitor.

“Don’t answer,” she yelled to her 9-year-old twins playing downstairs.

When the visitor began repeatedly ringing the doorbell, she called her husband at work.

“Get the kids and hide,” he told his wife.

As he dialed 911, his 37-year-old spouse, who works from home, collected the children and hid with them in a crawlspace adjoining her office. By that time, the intruder had forced his way into the three-story residence on Henderson Ridge Drive with a crowbar, authorities said. He allegedly rummaged through the home, eventually working his way up to the attic office.

“He opens the closet door and finds himself staring down the barrel of a .38 revolver,” said Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman, who relayed the woman’s narrative to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He asked that her name be withheld.

The woman fired six bullets, five of which hit Paul Ali Slater in the face and neck area, Chapman said. But Slater was still conscious.

“The guy’s face down, crying,” the sheriff said. The woman told him to stay down or she’d shoot again.

Slater, unaware that she had emptied her chamber, obliged as the mother and her children ran to a neighbor’s house.

The injured burglar eventually made it out of the home and into his car, driving away before deputies arrived on the scene. He didn’t get far.

“When you got five bullets in you, it makes you kind of disoriented,” Chapman told the AJC.

Deputies found Slater bleeding profusely in a neighbor’s driveway.

“I’m dying. Help me,” he told them, according to Chapman.

Slater was transported to Gwinnett Medical Center and is expected to survive, the sheriff said.

The Long Island native, who now lives in Gwinnett County, was released from the Gwinnett jail in late August after serving six months for simple battery and three counts of probation violation. Slater has six other arrests in Gwinnett dating back to 2008, according to jail records.

“My wife’s a hero,” the woman’s husband, Donnie Herman, told Channel 2 Action News in a brief statement. He did not respond to a request for comment from the AJC. “She protected her kids. She did what she was supposed to do.”

Chapman remarked that one of his deputies, impressed with the woman’s resolve, told the sheriff she had handled her first shooting better than he had.

“That mother’s instinct kicked in,” Chapman said. “You go after a mother’s kids and she’ll find herself capable of doing things she never thought she was capable of.”

[Ketzer]

This guy has a really good take on all of this, it is a little lengthy but I bet you will chuckle several times and not stop reading...

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/



Jeff-

[intocarss]

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/31/open-letter-to-joe-biden-on-guns/

[GregWeld]

If she'd had my Kimber she'd have only needed to hit him once...:thumbsup:

[camcojb]

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/mother-of-two-surprises-burglar-with-five-gunshots/nTnGR/

The Loganville mother of two assumed the knocks on her front door Friday afternoon were from a solicitor.

“Don’t answer,” she yelled to her 9-year-old twins playing downstairs.

When the visitor began repeatedly ringing the doorbell, she called her husband at work.

“Get the kids and hide,” he told his wife.

As he dialed 911, his 37-year-old spouse, who works from home, collected the children and hid with them in a crawlspace adjoining her office. By that time, the intruder had forced his way into the three-story residence on Henderson Ridge Drive with a crowbar, authorities said. He allegedly rummaged through the home, eventually working his way up to the attic office.

“He opens the closet door and finds himself staring down the barrel of a .38 revolver,” said Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman, who relayed the woman’s narrative to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He asked that her name be withheld.

The woman fired six bullets, five of which hit Paul Ali Slater in the face and neck area, Chapman said. But Slater was still conscious.

“The guy’s face down, crying,” the sheriff said. The woman told him to stay down or she’d shoot again.

Slater, unaware that she had emptied her chamber, obliged as the mother and her children ran to a neighbor’s house.

The injured burglar eventually made it out of the home and into his car, driving away before deputies arrived on the scene. He didn’t get far.

“When you got five bullets in you, it makes you kind of disoriented,” Chapman told the AJC.

Deputies found Slater bleeding profusely in a neighbor’s driveway.

“I’m dying. Help me,” he told them, according to Chapman.

Slater was transported to Gwinnett Medical Center and is expected to survive, the sheriff said.

The Long Island native, who now lives in Gwinnett County, was released from the Gwinnett jail in late August after serving six months for simple battery and three counts of probation violation. Slater has six other arrests in Gwinnett dating back to 2008, according to jail records.

“My wife’s a hero,” the woman’s husband, Donnie Herman, told Channel 2 Action News in a brief statement. He did not respond to a request for comment from the AJC. “She protected her kids. She did what she was supposed to do.”

Chapman remarked that one of his deputies, impressed with the woman’s resolve, told the sheriff she had handled her first shooting better than he had.

“That mother’s instinct kicked in,” Chapman said. “You go after a mother’s kids and she’ll find herself capable of doing things she never thought she was capable of.”

The big problem with gun stats is you don't see how many attack/murders are prevented because someone had a gun.
Just legally carrying and pulling it out has prevented countless attacks. Then you also have the below, which is the above story and one other story from the other side.

Scenario 1) A woman is home alone and hears knocking on the front door late at night. Moments later, she hears intruders breaking into her house. Not having a gun, she dutifully calls 911 and waits for help, trying to hide for her safety. The intruders find her, shoot her several times, and rob her home. No arrests have been made.

Scenario 2) A woman is home with her two kids. After someone repeatedly ringing the doorbell, she calls her husband at work, who tells her to hide with the two kids while he calls 911. The intruder forces his way in to the home with a crowbar, opens the door to the closet where the 3 were hiding, only to find himself face to face with a .38 - and gets shot 5 times. The suspect survives and is in custody. The woman and her kids are safe.

I'm sure most would choose the second scenario; those who don't, and perhaps don't agree with gun ownership in any form, would probably dismiss the second scenario as unlikely and improbable, and that the odds are against you actually defending yourself in such a manner.

There's only one problem:

Neither of these are hypothetical.

Both happened within 24 hours of today in the greater Atlanta area.

----------------------------------------------

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/story/20...-fulton-county (http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/story/20501099/home-intruders-shoot-injure-woman-in-fulton-county)

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/m...unshots/nTnGR/ (http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/mother-of-two-surprises-burglar-with-five-gunshots/nTnGR/)

[Spiffav8]

The big problem with gun stats is you don't see how many attack/murders are prevented because someone had a gun.
Just legally carrying and pulling it out has prevented countless attacks. Then you also have the below, which is the above story and one other story from the other side.

Scenario 1) A woman is home alone and hears knocking on the front door late at night. Moments later, she hears intruders breaking into her house. Not having a gun, she dutifully calls 911 and waits for help, trying to hide for her safety. The intruders find her, shoot her several times, and rob her home. No arrests have been made.

Scenario 2) A woman is home with her two kids. After someone repeatedly ringing the doorbell, she calls her husband at work, who tells her to hide with the two kids while he calls 911. The intruder forces his way in to the home with a crowbar, opens the door to the closet where the 3 were hiding, only to find himself face to face with a .38 - and gets shot 5 times. The suspect survives and is in custody. The woman and her kids are safe.

I'm sure most would choose the second scenario; those who don't, and perhaps don't agree with gun ownership in any form, would probably dismiss the second scenario as unlikely and improbable, and that the odds are against you actually defending yourself in such a manner.

There's only one problem:

Neither of these are hypothetical.

Both happened within 24 hours of today in the greater Atlanta area.

----------------------------------------------

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/story/20...-fulton-county (http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/story/20501099/home-intruders-shoot-injure-woman-in-fulton-county)

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/m...unshots/nTnGR/ (http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/mother-of-two-surprises-burglar-with-five-gunshots/nTnGR/)


Home invasion is happens more than most know and it's been on the rise over the past few years. My wife get's calls like this all the time where a person is cowering inside their home, hoping that whomever is pounding on their door will just go away. This is the criminal trying to find out if you home or not. First line of defense is to actually yell "who is it". Nothing says you can't be dialing 911 if you suspect it's someone meaning you harm.

The recent shooting of the home invader you pointed out is proof that limiting the capacity of a firearm, used in self defense, could leave a person vulnerable. The shooter emptied all 6 round and connected with 5. The home invader survived, but what if there had been more than one? Not the time to be trying to reload your revolver! Trust me when I say that it's usually more than one guy. Hey..today's TV's are pretty heavy.

[Spiffav8]

Large caliber, two in the chest, one in the head, and then hit the panic button to call the clean up crews....

Always be ready, just in case....Survivor criminals is not an option...:thumbsup:

Nice tuff guy talk, but not smart on any level. While I'm not against shooting someone in the head if I have to, putting two in the chest and then one to the head would be viewed as execution. That alone would cause you to be jailed for a very long time, regardless if you where found innocent or not. The best thing anyone can do when they are forced to go defensive is to get the police on the phone as fast as possible. If you just shot someone you had better request an ambulance/medical (maybe two, one for the bad guy and one for you). It would be smart to go so far as to give that person whatever aid you can (not saying it has to be much). Reasons behind this is to ONE: Make a good 911 tape. It's your best defense on what happened. TWO: You're showing that you did not want to kill the person, but where forced to fire your weapon. THREE: Even after you shot them, you did all you could to save their life. Lastly, if the intruder had a weapon of any sort, insure that it doesn't get removed from the area. Don't touch it, but don't let someone run off with it either. Oh and grab anyone that witnessed what happened.

Accomplish all that and you just did all the work for the police, DA and will deter any attorney that wants to sue you. Be smart and safe guard the rest of your life and all that you have, not just with a gun.

[GregWeld]

Curtis brings up some good points --- but not completely accurate, or even proper under the law... There's really no law that states you must render aid. And I, for one, would not. Doing so may in fact bring about a whole new set of circumstances such as "destroying evidence" or doing more harm than good etc. Another factor you should consider is that there very well maybe another intruder you're unaware of "yet"... and now you're disarmed and distracted.

Best to just call 9-1-1 and let them sort it out.

BTW - The last thing I want to do is to shoot someone -- and then have them survive and sue me for taking care of them for the rest of their lives on a ventilator. No thanks!

EVERYONE should understand the laws IN THEIR STATE... as pertains to defending ones property and person. The laws vary greatly! Part of your responsibility of owning firearms is that you should know the laws. Many states laws are vague at best. But in the end - if you did the reasonable and right thing in the circumstance... you're probably going to be okay.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

[Bucketlist2012]

Also to add to my post, I have signs telling people that I have an alarm..I am not trying to bait someone to rob me, I am actually trying to get them to stay out...

California laws...First you get sued if you did not have a beware of dog sign...

Then you get sued because you had a sign and put one up because you knew your dog was dangerous :willy: :willy: :willy: :willy:

Also I do pray that nothing like that will ever happen...I wouldn't mind going the rest of my Life without confronting an Intruder..

[GregWeld]

California laws...First you get sued if you did not have a beware of dog sign...

Then you get sued because you had a sign and put one up because you knew your dog was dangerous



....... and because it wasn't printed in Chinese and Spanish....


:cheers:

[Bucketlist2012]

....... and because it wasn't printed in Chinese and Spanish....


:cheers:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Too funny.....Or Ebonics....