Shooting in Connecticut

[Spiffav8]

Nice Try:willy: :willy: :rofl: I didn't say I was going outside....I did not say i would shoot them if they turn and run...But tough guy ? Damn right...If I wake up and they are in MY house, and they walk into MY bedroon upstairs or where my family is ? They die in the house...I feared for my life and they tried to get the weapon....Plain and simple, closed case..

The panic button summons Police and Fire...I will be comforting my family, not rendering aid to the criminal...

On the 911 tape, I will explain what happened after the threat is stopped and your scenario has flaws...If a second intruder grabs the gun and turns and runs, I cannot shoot him...Then I get sued...I have never been in trouble in my Life and my record is clean, and I did not want to kill anyone...They decided to try to hurt me in MY HOME...

The CSI and trajectory of the bullets tell the story...If I shoot them coming towards me, game over, i am innocent...If I stand over them to finish them ? I am a murderer...

Hang on while I grab this bucket of gasoline.....

My response was to your statement of "two to the chest and one to the head with a large caliber weapon". I am not quoting any law. What I am saying is that shooting someone in self defense is, in a way, a mental game in addition to practiced muscle memory. It is important to protect your self and your family for what comes after such an act. You successfully defended the safety of you and your family (regardless of where the act happened) which is great! Now you need to be concerned with what comes after. What would a reasonable person who doesn't want to kill someone do? That's how our legal system looks at it and sadly it isn't always aligned with what you and I think is reasonable. What I'm saying is that IF you do all you can to show you didn't want to kill another human (show being the key word) it would go a long way in the defense of any legal actions brought against you. When I go through the mental game in my head, I always think "how will my actions be perceived by others". What if you shot a man who broke into your home with the intent of doing harm to you and your family and that story made the news? I for one want the media (if they would report it) to be showing that I shot the intruder and then did all I could to save his life. What I don't want is the media or any liberal to twist the story and say that I wanted that person dead. Two to the chest and one to the head would/could be seen as execution by many. My goal is to give no one, anything that could be used against me. My tax dollars already support enough dirt bags and the last thing I want is to be paying one of their family members after they sue me.

Now...does this mean that I have a problem leaving a bad guy gurgling in a pool of their own blood? Nope. I honestly have a low tolerance for B.S. and criminals. But protecting what I have, well beyond the shooting of another human is just another level of protection for my family.

Sitting back in your recliner, feet up, sipping on your favorite beverage and watching the clean up crew remove the body or trusting that some T.V. like CSI team is going to come in and prove you where justified isn't smart. Make it easy for them, while making it easy for you. What do you think is better, explaining to the 911 dispatcher (my wife) what happened after or having the entire event recorded via the police departments 911 line? Yeah there might not be enough time to get them on the phone, but if you could, even if the phone is just sitting next to you as you defend your self, it would be a huge plus!

I will say that there is no way to be 100% in every situation. There are to many variables. But being prepared mentally and protecting against what comes after is just as important.

You're not wrong, but your not right either. You can do more to protect your family that just working on your trigger control.

[Spiffav8]

Also to add to my post, I have signs telling people that I have an alarm..I am not trying to bait someone to rob me, I am actually trying to get them to stay out...

California laws...First you get sued if you did not have a beware of dog sign...

Then you get sued because you had a sign and put one up because you knew your dog was dangerous :willy: :willy: :willy: :willy:

Also I do pray that nothing like that will ever happen...I wouldn't mind going the rest of my Life without confronting an Intruder..

The dog sign thing is crazy and just shows how the law can be twisted and used against you. Seriously that's just stupid.

The alarm signs are great. I see that as you warning an intruder that you are protecting your home. To me that's a first line of defense kind of thing and smart. If someone made it past all of your layers of defense and you where forced to shoot them, that could be a huge plus in defending your self in court or against any legal actions.

[Spiffav8]

For anyone that thinks I am crazy, take a moment and read this:

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/Hickey%20Booklet.pdf

What this guy went through is nuts. It's also proof that things can and will be bad if you are ever forced to defend your self or family against an attack.

[Bucketlist2012]

For anyone that thinks I am crazy, take a moment and read this:

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/Hickey%20Booklet.pdf

What this guy went through is nuts. It's also proof that things can and will be bad if you are ever forced to defend your self or family against an attack.

Being outside with a weapon is a huge responsibilty.. And I don't make light of an intruder entering my home....Plain and simple, if they are in my Home, I fear for my life...If I can use the phone after getting my weapon, I would.If I can hit the alarm button first, I would..If it all happens too fast and they are in my room sooner than I can call 911, I am in fear for my life..I won't go looking for them, or run after them...My initial statement is only meant if they are coming at me..I truly would feel that it is them or me...No anger, or hate but fear...If they get to my weapon, I am dead, and my family is too...

So no Rambo here, sorry you took it that way...They would have to be coming at me for me to use dealy force, and it would have to be inside my Home...

[Spiffav8]

Being outside with a weapon is a huge responsibilty.. And I don't make light of an intruder entering my home....Plain and simple, if they are in my Home, I fear for my life...If I can use the phone after getting my weapon, I would.If I can hit the alarm button first, I would..If it all happens too fast and they are in my room sooner than I can call 911, I am in fear for my life..I won't go looking for them, or run after them...My initial statement is only meant if they are coming at me..I truly would feel that it is them or me...No anger, or hate but fear...If they get to my weapon, I am dead, and my family is too...

So no Rambo here, sorry you took it that way...They would have to be coming at me for me to use dealy force, and it would have to be inside my Home...

:lol: Rambo. No I didn't take it as that. I actually care about good people like you and your family. I want you all to be happy, healthy, wealthy and wise. Just giving you a little food for thought so you can be better prepared for what I hope you will never be faced with.

:cheers:

[Bucketlist2012]

:lol: Rambo. No I didn't take it as that. I actually care about good people like you and your family. I want you all to be happy, healthy, wealthy and wise. Just giving you a little food for thought so you can be better prepared for what I hope you will never be faced with.

:cheers:

Thanks Brother...You too...:cheers: :lateral:

[Shmoov69]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Too funny.....Or Ebonics....

Oh stewardess, I speak jive....

http://youtu.be/190iqepL-G4

[Vince@Meanstreets]

This picture represents the only way you would get the jump on a home invader.
http://s2.filmwatch.com/media/13/blog/515000/516596_1_org.jpg

Criminals will always have the upper hand cause they plan for it. They are equip for it and they expect it.

I don't care who you are and what you are carrying. Unless you train for it everyday or live in Syria, you will most likely fail at being a hero. You will more likely be a martyr for the religion of vigilanties. If you are a law abiding citizen carrying a gun to protect yourself you are not immune to the unknown and surprise. Criminals find a way and will always continue to do so. They do not think like we do, and we don't think like them.

[Spiffav8]

This picture represents the only way you would get the jump on a home invader.
http://s2.filmwatch.com/media/13/blog/515000/516596_1_org.jpg

Criminals will always have the upper hand cause they plan for it. They are equip for it and they expect it.

I don't care who you are and what you are carrying. Unless you train for it everyday or live in Syria, you will most likely fail at being a hero. You will more likely be a martyr for the religion of vigilanties. If you are a law abiding citizen carrying a gun to protect yourself you are not immune to the unknown and surprise. Criminals find a way and will always continue to do so. They do not think like we do, and we don't think like them.

Well said.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/mother-of-two-surprises-burglar-with-five-gunshots/nTnGR/

The Loganville mother of two assumed the knocks on her front door Friday afternoon were from a solicitor.

“Don’t answer,” she yelled to her 9-year-old twins playing downstairs.

When the visitor began repeatedly ringing the doorbell, she called her husband at work.

“Get the kids and hide,” he told his wife.

As he dialed 911, his 37-year-old spouse, who works from home, collected the children and hid with them in a crawlspace adjoining her office. By that time, the intruder had forced his way into the three-story residence on Henderson Ridge Drive with a crowbar, authorities said. He allegedly rummaged through the home, eventually working his way up to the attic office.

“He opens the closet door and finds himself staring down the barrel of a .38 revolver,” said Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman, who relayed the woman’s narrative to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He asked that her name be withheld.

The woman fired six bullets, five of which hit Paul Ali Slater in the face and neck area, Chapman said. But Slater was still conscious.

“The guy’s face down, crying,” the sheriff said. The woman told him to stay down or she’d shoot again.

Slater, unaware that she had emptied her chamber, obliged as the mother and her children ran to a neighbor’s house.

The injured burglar eventually made it out of the home and into his car, driving away before deputies arrived on the scene. He didn’t get far.

“When you got five bullets in you, it makes you kind of disoriented,” Chapman told the AJC.

Deputies found Slater bleeding profusely in a neighbor’s driveway.

“I’m dying. Help me,” he told them, according to Chapman.

Slater was transported to Gwinnett Medical Center and is expected to survive, the sheriff said.

The Long Island native, who now lives in Gwinnett County, was released from the Gwinnett jail in late August after serving six months for simple battery and three counts of probation violation. Slater has six other arrests in Gwinnett dating back to 2008, according to jail records.

“My wife’s a hero,” the woman’s husband, Donnie Herman, told Channel 2 Action News in a brief statement. He did not respond to a request for comment from the AJC. “She protected her kids. She did what she was supposed to do.”

Chapman remarked that one of his deputies, impressed with the woman’s resolve, told the sheriff she had handled her first shooting better than he had.

“That mother’s instinct kicked in,” Chapman said. “You go after a mother’s kids and she’ll find herself capable of doing things she never thought she was capable of.”

rare case but she did the right thing...hide and prepare. Just the few seconds she had evading gave her a fighting chance to prepare. No one can predict how one wold react in a situation.
An interesting study done by a Bethlehem ERT and ABC. This is how 87% of normal humans would react in a crisis situation.


8QjZY3WiO9s

[Ketzer]

That is an interesting video. All the bio-feedback stuff is very true. The muscle memory, training, being mentally prepared, all spot on. Our military has been using that system since there was a military.

I do take issue with their "scenario". The really long T-shirt and making sure they had those big clunky gloves on. Using nervous college kids who were on edge before it even started. The "assailant" shoots the teacher and then immeadiately moves to the "secret" carry person. That is all orchestrated to give a specific result... in my opinion. I am not military or law enforcement. I have no training in combat shooting... it just seemed obvious.


Jeff-

[Spiffav8]

That is an interesting video. All the bio-feedback stuff is very true. The muscle memory, training, being mentally prepared, all spot on. Our military has been using that system since there was a military.

I do take issue with their "scenario". The really long T-shirt and making sure they had those big clunky gloves on. Using nervous college kids who were on edge before it even started. The "assailant" shoots the teacher and then immeadiately moves to the "secret" carry person. That is all orchestrated to give a specific result... in my opinion. I am not military or law enforcement. I have no training in combat shooting... it just seemed obvious.


Jeff-

Jeff-You are 100% correct in your observations. This video was proven to be a setup.

[camcojb]

That is an interesting video. All the bio-feedback stuff is very true. The muscle memory, training, being mentally prepared, all spot on. Our military has been using that system since there was a military.

I do take issue with their "scenario". The really long T-shirt and making sure they had those big clunky gloves on. Using nervous college kids who were on edge before it even started. The "assailant" shoots the teacher and then immeadiately moves to the "secret" carry person. That is all orchestrated to give a specific result... in my opinion. I am not military or law enforcement. I have no training in combat shooting... it just seemed obvious.


Jeff-

Jeff-You are 100% correct in your observations. This video was proven to be a setup.
I was thinking the same thing. Class full of students and he goes directly to the armed guy. I'd rather have a chance at defending myself than to hope if I'm in that situation that I can get away or be spared.

[GregWeld]

That's the best video I've seen -- and is IMHO 100% accurate.... I have been in police training scenarios - I go to the Seattle Police range weekly - I have police friends... and I can tell you that even when you know something is going to happen -- you're reaction times SUCK! And your accuracy SUCKS...
But I also agree that the shooter targeted the unsuspecting CC holder and the odds are that wouldn't happen... so it's a bit of a set up.

I don't think any of us has much of a chance in this "set up" style scenario...

BUT --- I have carry permits for when I'm on the road... I'm on the side of the road at night - or perhaps broken down etc... THEN I have a chance at protecting myself.

I don't have ANY guns not locked up at home. EVER. The odds of my home being broken into while I'm there -- by a gun toting robber... is just about zilch. I'll take my odds in that scenario. We have panic silent call remotes by our bed. Hopefully I hear something and have enough time to react to even doing that. I have adult children that come and go - are away from home - but are always free to come in. No way would I want to wake up and accidentally shoot one of them or one of their friends. I'd rather it "be me" than to take that chance.

That's just my opinion. I'm just not the paranoid type I guess. And I certainly do care about safety and I like my guns... so I'm not anti gun or anti defense.

[DBasher]

Thats funny Greg, useing the SPD and firearms training in the same sentence...ahh, you crack me up! :rofl:

:cheers:
Dan

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I think you guys are missing point.

It's the surprise and planning advantage that the bad guys have over you. Look past the clothing, stage and arena. Look at the amount of time they have to react. These where people with loaded weapons on them and they could not react in time. The ones that did missed or would have shot an innocent.

Do you seriously think you are going to have a chance if someone kicks door the front door and you are sitting down for dinner or in bed asleep. Maybe you have your back turned and your loading groceries into your SUV. If you are truly a law abiding citizen your firearm is in the safe locked up and ammo out of chamber.

My point and message is you do not have an advantage what so ever and don't leave yourself open as a victim. Be aware and listen to that voice in your head telling you something's off with the group of teenagers walking down the street towards you, that car that keeps driving past the house or the strange peps that come to your door asking for donations.

Do not assume you can be a hero. Protect yourself and haulass to safety. Who do you think the first target is going to be? The guy fighting back or the guy standing up to shoot back.

[GregWeld]

Thats funny Greg, useing the SPD and firearms training in the same sentence...ahh, you crack me up! :rofl:

:cheers:
Dan



Dan -- It's BELLEVUE police department that's messed up! But I do get your point... :lol:

It's just that one of my best friends is the Head of Seattle Security - secures all of Seattle's buildings and security services - department is separate from SPD (not a rent a cop) - and my other buddy Myrle Carner... are both SPD. So I have to be careful of being critical - lest they draw down on me!

[GregWeld]

I think you guys are missing point.

It's the surprise and planning advantage that the bad guys have over you. Look past the clothing, stage and arena. Look at the amount of time they have to react. These where people with loaded weapons on them and they could not react in time. The ones that did missed or would have shot an innocent.

Do you seriously think you are going to have a chance if someone kicks door the front door and you are sitting down for dinner or in bed asleep. Maybe you have your back turned and your loading groceries into your SUV. If you are truly a law abiding citizen your firearm is in the safe locked up and ammo out of chamber.

My point and message is you do not have an advantage what so ever and don't leave yourself open as a victim. Be aware and listen to that voice in your head telling you something's off with the group of teenagers walking down the street towards you, that car that keeps driving past the house or the strange peps that come to your door asking for donations.

Do not assume you can be a hero. Protect yourself and haulass to safety. Who do you think the first target is going to be? The guy fighting back or the guy standing up to shoot back.


That's called "The Nike Defense"....


I agree with you on some points and totally disagree on other points.


If you were a CC guy and wearing - and you're at the mall and a shooting breaks out... I'd prefer to "have a fighting chance" of stopping the guy.

If I'm on the side of the road - and have my Kimber locked and loaded - and I go to bed "EXPECTING" someone to try to mess with my stuff or bust in... I have a fighting chance. And I feel infinitely better.

So I think most of us are torn between trying to do something if it ever came to that - rather than just being a helpless victim.

In the case where you're sitting at the movie and some azzwipe comes in blasting... agree -- not good odds, but you never know!

Walking down the street -- after having dinner downtown -- the odd group of young men acts rowdy and suspicious and disruptive.... having a CC on my hip would make me feel INFINITELY better ---- and if they passed you and then turned on you (you'd have already had that peak awareness going) just "showing" you're armed would probably be enough to persuade them to hassle someone else. Either way - I'd still FEEL better. The key here is awareness and avoidance (crossing the street -- trying to keep your distance -- ducking into an open business until they pass). I'd still have my strap off and my hand on the grip. :unibrow:

Sound asleep - some cat burglar is already in the house... and you suddenly awake... if he has bad intentions -- you're probably already dead or injured... BUT if he's just a burglar and you yell out "I have a gun... get the f out of my house" and slide one in the chamber... my guess is HE does the Nike defense....

When you talk to cops -- some go 30 years without ever having drawn on anyone -- and they're put in a bad position every day! So the odds of "us" ever having an armed confrontation are next to zero. I've managed to go almost 60 years without having one! :D If I lived somewhere other than where I do -- I might even have the Kimber in the bedroom but I've just never felt the need. I live in "Pleasantville"... the bad guys are on the other side of the lake -- or way south of me.

There was a shooting the other night at a night club here -- long story -- by a known murderer... and you know what happened? They closed the place and announced they wouldn't reopen. :woot:

Nothing good happens after midnight....

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I agree, I'd love to have a fighting chance too but as they say in CC class. "Having a gun out when the police decide to show up. I'd rather be still concealed than be mistaken as a possible suspect".

I was more using a non CCW holder example since most states are "may issue".

[GregWeld]

I'm one of those guys that think a CC doesn't give you ANYTHING except the right to carry concealed...

If you're going to carry --- or even USE firearms of ANY kind... then you need to invest in various classes. Not just target practice! It's like owning a high hp car... if you own something like that -- you should be equally engaged in LEARNING how to drive! To me - they go hand in hand.

There are so many GREAT classes a guy/gal can take! Including knife defense classes -- and tactical classes etc. There's a fabulous training group right in good old Pahrump! We should get a group together before or after SEMA / OUSCI and take one! My law enforcement buddies say this is one of the very best!

http://www.frontsight.com

[Ketzer]

This is good dialog about a very sensitive subject so I will add some more idiotic ramblings of my own...

I feel certain even though I have made myself proficient with my weapon, practiced all aspects of cover, draw, reload, watch my surroundings, try and think through scenarios in my head... I will most likely soil my diaper and never get my weapon out if the worst happens.

I always conceal. My philosophy is similar to the samurai, if I have to show it, the end of it will be smoking. Obviously doesn't cover every situation but trying to threaten someone into backing down by showing "I have this" is preached against by all the experts. I believe that having a force multiplier (even if it is hidden) changes how you interact with someone intending you harm, they can sense you will not be a victim.

The nature of my work exposes me to a lot of different people. What I see out of my fellow sapiens gives me cause to doubt that everyone's values are like mine. The common example is why resist over a car or a wallet or a TV, let them have it. No one's life is worth that... simple possesions. The problem is, they are my F'ing possesions. A lot more gets stolen from me than stuff if I do nothing. I am not fighting back for the $20 in my wallet ($40 if my wife has given me my allowance). Obviously if a gun is in my face, here's the keys. But if the opportunity presents for me to legally defend myself...


Jeff-

[Vince@Meanstreets]

This is good dialog about a very sensitive subject so I will add some more idiotic ramblings of my own...


Jeff-

I resemble that remark....:D

[GregWeld]

This is good dialog about a very sensitive subject so I will add some more idiotic ramblings of my own...

I feel certain even though I have made myself proficient with my weapon, practiced all aspects of cover, draw, reload, watch my surroundings, try and think through scenarios in my head... I will most likely soil my diaper and never get my weapon out if the worst happens.

I always conceal. My philosophy is similar to the samurai, if I have to show it, the end of it will be smoking. Obviously doesn't cover every situation but trying to threaten someone into backing down by showing "I have this" is preached against by all the experts. I believe that having a force multiplier (even if it is hidden) changes how you interact with someone intending you harm, they can sense you will not be a victim.

The nature of my work exposes me to a lot of different people. What I see out of my fellow sapiens gives me cause to doubt that everyone's values are like mine. The common example is why resist over a car or a wallet or a TV, let them have it. No one's life is worth that... simple possesions. The problem is, they are my F'ing possesions. A lot more gets stolen from me than stuff if I do nothing. I am not fighting back for the $20 in my wallet ($40 if my wife has given me my allowance). Obviously if a gun is in my face, here's the keys. But if the opportunity presents for me to legally defend myself...


Jeff-


When I said "show" it - doesn't mean pulling it out and waving it around.... I'm thinking more like hand on the grip - strap undone - whether they actually "SEE" anything is doubtful but if someone is familiar at all -- and has bad intentions - they'd now what they're about to face. If not - they'd have no clue.... and all will pass...

[Spiffav8]

This is good dialog about a very sensitive subject so I will add some more idiotic ramblings of my own...

I feel certain even though I have made myself proficient with my weapon, practiced all aspects of cover, draw, reload, watch my surroundings, try and think through scenarios in my head... I will most likely soil my diaper and never get my weapon out if the worst happens.

I always conceal. My philosophy is similar to the samurai, if I have to show it, the end of it will be smoking. Obviously doesn't cover every situation but trying to threaten someone into backing down by showing "I have this" is preached against by all the experts. I believe that having a force multiplier (even if it is hidden) changes how you interact with someone intending you harm, they can sense you will not be a victim.

The nature of my work exposes me to a lot of different people. What I see out of my fellow sapiens gives me cause to doubt that everyone's values are like mine. The common example is why resist over a car or a wallet or a TV, let them have it. No one's life is worth that... simple possesions. The problem is, they are my F'ing possesions. A lot more gets stolen from me than stuff if I do nothing. I am not fighting back for the $20 in my wallet ($40 if my wife has given me my allowance). Obviously if a gun is in my face, here's the keys. But if the opportunity presents for me to legally defend myself...


Jeff-

Bravo! Great approach!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Ketzer]

When I said "show" it - doesn't mean pulling it out and waving it around.... ...

Now GW, we all know you like pulling it out and waving it around...:unibrow:
(know what you mean though, I would be very tempted to roll my clothing back if things started to smell sketchy in a situation)

Jeff-

[GregWeld]

Don't ya just LOVE hypocrites??




FOt7Fi49PT0

[intocarss]

Those damn two faced lying cheating hypocritical Hollywood A holes

Just like thier anti drug adds

[GregWeld]

EGG ZACTLY



:willy: :lol:

[intocarss]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/09/vice-president-to-meet-with-gun-safety-groups/

[intocarss]

tRJ0ls_W9XM&feature=player_embedded

[GregWeld]

I had tried to make these points in earlier posts... that we have the highest gun ownership by far -- but not the highest % of gun murders...

The fact that Briton has a far higher violent crime rate is an eye opener! I'd have never guessed that one.

[out2kayak]

John Lott, economist and gun-rights advocate, has extensively studied mass shootings and reports that, with just one exception, the attack on U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson, Arizona, in 2011, every public shooting since 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns. The massacres at Sandy Hook Elementary, Columbine, Virginia Tech and the Century 16 movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, all took place in gun-free zones.

http://us.cnn.com/2012/12/19/opinion/bennett-gun-rights/index.html

[intocarss]

http://news.yahoo.com/gun-owners-gun-violence-education-enforcement-not-fewer-192400491.html

[Vince@Meanstreets]

The whole UK argument is weak but is also a look ahead.

http://lastresistance.com/906/england-considering-ban-on-kitchen-knives/

[Vince@Meanstreets]

John Lott, economist and gun-rights advocate, has extensively studied mass shootings and reports that, with just one exception, the attack on U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson, Arizona, in 2011, every public shooting since 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns. The massacres at Sandy Hook Elementary, Columbine, Virginia Tech and the Century 16 movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, all took place in gun-free zones.

http://us.cnn.com/2012/12/19/opinion/bennett-gun-rights/index.html

yes, As I have been saying. The laws are there. Try to get these yahoos to enforce them.

I feel a big problem are these new owners that don't understand gun ownership and the resposibility it takes to own one. When I say "new owners" I am speaking of these people who have purchased during ban scare driven shopping sprees. Just bought because everyone was doing it.

[realcoray]

John Lott, economist and gun-rights advocate, has extensively studied mass shootings and reports that, with just one exception, the attack on U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson, Arizona, in 2011, every public shooting since 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns. The massacres at Sandy Hook Elementary, Columbine, Virginia Tech and the Century 16 movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, all took place in gun-free zones.

http://us.cnn.com/2012/12/19/opinion/bennett-gun-rights/index.html

I don't have to study mass killings to know that this guy is skewing things hilariously.

I suspect he has a very specific definition of the term public, that eliminates any private property, any home, military bases etc.

I mean he clearly cannot count the fort hood shooting because that is pretty much the antithesis of what hardcore gun rights advocates talk about. After students get shot, it's "if only someone had a gun". When almost 45 people get shot on a military base, it's more like we'd just rather not discuss that one at all.

I'm not advocating for anything, I'm simply pointing out the massive holes in some of the angles people take to sound convincing.

[Ketzer]

Last night on my local news, one particularly ignorant babbling meat sack in a suit went on and on about "how incomprehensible it is for a regular citizen to own a military-based handgun". "what possible legal use could there be?"

Right now, blathering idiots just like him are deciding the fate of the second amendement. While I wholeheartedly agree that some refinements and improvements desperately need to be made in gun laws and loopholes, I fear that some serious mistakes are about to be made out of IGNORANCE and fear.


Jeff-

[Sieg]

Here's an interesting article, not the mysterious crash but the anti-depressant usage:
http://www.naturalnews.com/038616_john_noveske_mysterious_death_car_crash.htm l

[intocarss]

evEg1VNfX3o

[out2kayak]

More fodder on statistics:

FWNOiw_XIV8

:cheers:

[GregWeld]

The larger issue is that the VOCAL anti gun dipwads have the microphone -- while "we" blabber to ourselves.


WE need to write to every representative and senator - and to the White House about OUR feelings -- let OUR voices be heard.


The second amendment was about the man in the street being able to defend not only his country but be able to stand against his country should ever the need arise. It doesn't say you have to only be able to hurl a rock at a tank - like they do in other countries. This is what people DO NOT understand...

California has managed to ban just about every type of industry that creates jobs... now look at the state of things there. This is what happens when you have hysteria over reasoning. Some folks just want to control "everything"... and law makers want to do what? They want to make laws! That's they're "job"... Doesn't make any difference if the law is idiotic...

Frankly - I don't care if they want to ban assault rifles etc - I already have them... but what I don't like is people just going about thinking that making another law is the cure.... they spend so much time on that avenue that they completely miss the real issues. That's what get's me PO'd.

The "government" is so wrapped up in making sure everyone is taken care of via some program or another -- that they've completely forgotten that you don't NEED to take care of people if they actually have jobs... and can make a living.

[intocarss]

Very well put GW :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Great video from amidst the noise.

A great leader once said "to effectively control a population keep them poor, hungry, unhealthy, uneducated and unarmed."

[MrsSpiffAv8]

I do not rely solely on my husband to protect me. He is my partner in protecting our family and home. We are equals. When I do not have the luxury of having him by my side in my daily routine...shopping, going to and from work...it is up to ME to protect myself and be aware of my surroundings at all times. Like driving my car, I need to be aware of the cars and people around me so I don't cause or become a victim of a crash.

A woman who does nothing to protect herself or her family is an easy target and this will sound harsh...but I have little sympathy for when she makes herself vulnerable to an attack. DO NOT go to the grocery store with 3 kids and a large obnoxious purse. That puts a flashing neon sign over your head saying...I'm not able to pay attention to you cuz I'm concerned only that my kids won't run out in front of a car, or I'm too busy telling them NO YOU CANT HAVE ANY CANDY. I'm trying to hold my big ass purse up on my shoulder while holding hands with one kid and pushing an overflowing cart of groceries. Now I'm at my car, popped the trunk, set the cart next to the car and am trying to get my kids loaded inside or into car seats. My groceries are unattended, my purse I set in the cart and my focus is not on my surroundings. That is when you get approched by one or 2 dirt bags who grab your purse, take the keys, put a gun to your head and push you out of the way, then get into your car and drive off. Where is your cell phone? In the purse they stole. Where are your kids? In the car they stole. Now you are left screaming in the middle of a parking lot or running into the store to use the phone or scream to have someone else call for you. Please don't give me the excuse of...but we needed food for dinner for the week. Maybe your husband can help you out on this? Maybe you can do the shopping on your own on the weekend? This is something I feel needs to be taken into consideration to reduce a woman's chances of being a victim.

I own my own handgun. I have my CCW. While I am NOT an expert marksman, I do pretty good, but it is always a never ending learning/practicing event in my life. You don't just sit and watch a guy in a garage change oil, install a suspension, clear coat a car 1 time then automatically know how to do it yourself right? Same holds true with owning and using a firearm.

I hate to say anything negative about the schools, but in LV...the school police are not up to par to protect our kids like many would think. They have jurisdiction ONLY on their property and the streets directly adjacent to a school. THE END. They are not trained or equipped to handle major emergencies. They call the local police departments for that. They do not have a large scale staff either. Hiring retired/unemployed former military. Yes, great idea. However, there needs to be a through background check and psych that goes along with them just like an officer. Some...SOME I say, returning vets have been exposed to horrible traumatic events and suffer PTSD. I get MANY calls with these brave men and women, who do not take their meds because it would prevent them from getting certain jobs...law enforcement,security... Again...SOME.

The Constitution provided me and you the right to bear arms...not just the militia. If your not familiar with the Constitution...READ IT, LEARN IT, UNDERSTAND IT. It also gives all of us freedom of speech. So even the nay sayers and anti-gun advocates have the right to voice their opinion. I have no control over that. Just as they have NO control to impede the freedoms and rights it affords me.

Lastly, because I know this is long....and I'm a girl and like to gab...the Brady Bill was found to be illegal and unconstitutional by the United States Supreme court. The Federal govt tried to force their laws on local/state officials to do their dirty work. But you never hear about that do we? We still hear the Brady Bill, but they so conveniently leave out all the story. For more info on that look up Mack vs US. It was 7 Sheriff's across the US who sued the government over the Brady Bill...AND WON.

Educate yourself. Protect yourself. Do NOT rely on anyone...ESPECIALLY THE GOVT to take care of you. If I as a woman cannot stand on my own... I don't deserve to stand at all.

[MrsSpiffAv8]

Telling me that I don't need a high powered rifle or AR15 because its not used for hunting and thats not what the 2nd Amendment states....

The 2A never said that the right to bear arms was for hunting only.

Are you also telling me that a musket, a single shot rifle, an 8 shot pump, a revolver with 5 rounds can't kill someone also? Stop calling larger guns or guns with larger magazines killing machines. EVERY GUN IS DESIGNED TO KILL, that is the purpose of a gun...it is used to protect. And if your idea of using/owning a gun is to use it ONLY to hurt someone...slow them down, stop them from doing something bad to you or your family...then your not (in my opinion) owning a gun for the right reasons. You have to be prepared to go all the way if you are in a situation where your life or the life of a loved one depends on it.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

ahhh fricken men...ah errr woman.

thank you.

I wish the government would get a clue, but they do. They want us unarmed. They are going at this head first. Similar to invading Iraq. Its an agenda.

It seems has been the plan all along. Keep the country in fear of the big bad gun and the media is just spewing along.

BTW, if you want to fight....support Calguns.net they have done so much to help us in the gun world.

[Ketzer]

Well spoken... err written!

I am very fortunate that my wife is as aware and awake as you are. We carry, we practice, we talk about situations and doing what needs to be done. My wife will not be bullied or go quietly. I have seen it myself and know her resolve.

All you guys need to make the effort to help your significant other be prepared.


Jeff-

[GregWeld]

I do not rely solely on my husband to protect me. He is my partner in protecting our family and home. We are equals. When I do not have the luxury of having him by my side in my daily routine...shopping, going to and from work...it is up to ME to protect myself and be aware of my surroundings at all times. Like driving my car, I need to be aware of the cars and people around me so I don't cause or become a victim of a crash.

A woman who does nothing to protect herself or her family is an easy target and this will sound harsh...but I have little sympathy for when she makes herself vulnerable to an attack. DO NOT go to the grocery store with 3 kids and a large obnoxious purse. That puts a flashing neon sign over your head saying...I'm not able to pay attention to you cuz I'm concerned only that my kids won't run out in front of a car, or I'm too busy telling them NO YOU CANT HAVE ANY CANDY. I'm trying to hold my big ass purse up on my shoulder while holding hands with one kid and pushing an overflowing cart of groceries. Now I'm at my car, popped the trunk, set the cart next to the car and am trying to get my kids loaded inside or into car seats. My groceries are unattended, my purse I set in the cart and my focus is not on my surroundings. That is when you get approched by one or 2 dirt bags who grab your purse, take the keys, put a gun to your head and push you out of the way, then get into your car and drive off. Where is your cell phone? In the purse they stole. Where are your kids? In the car they stole. Now you are left screaming in the middle of a parking lot or running into the store to use the phone or scream to have someone else call for you. Please don't give me the excuse of...but we needed food for dinner for the week. Maybe your husband can help you out on this? Maybe you can do the shopping on your own on the weekend? This is something I feel needs to be taken into consideration to reduce a woman's chances of being a victim.

I own my own handgun. I have my CCW. While I am NOT an expert marksman, I do pretty good, but it is always a never ending learning/practicing event in my life. You don't just sit and watch a guy in a garage change oil, install a suspension, clear coat a car 1 time then automatically know how to do it yourself right? Same holds true with owning and using a firearm.

I hate to say anything negative about the schools, but in LV...the school police are not up to par to protect our kids like many would think. They have jurisdiction ONLY on their property and the streets directly adjacent to a school. THE END. They are not trained or equipped to handle major emergencies. They call the local police departments for that. They do not have a large scale staff either. Hiring retired/unemployed former military. Yes, great idea. However, there needs to be a through background check and psych that goes along with them just like an officer. Some...SOME I say, returning vets have been exposed to horrible traumatic events and suffer PTSD. I get MANY calls with these brave men and women, who do not take their meds because it would prevent them from getting certain jobs...law enforcement,security... Again...SOME.

The Constitution provided me and you the right to bear arms...not just the militia. If your not familiar with the Constitution...READ IT, LEARN IT, UNDERSTAND IT. It also gives all of us freedom of speech. So even the nay sayers and anti-gun advocates have the right to voice their opinion. I have no control over that. Just as they have NO control to impede the freedoms and rights it affords me.

Lastly, because I know this is long....and I'm a girl and like to gab...the Brady Bill was found to be illegal and unconstitutional by the United States Supreme court. The Federal govt tried to force their laws on local/state officials to do their dirty work. But you never hear about that do we? We still hear the Brady Bill, but they so conveniently leave out all the story. For more info on that look up Mack vs US. It was 7 Sheriff's across the US who sued the government over the Brady Bill...AND WON.

Educate yourself. Protect yourself. Do NOT rely on anyone...ESPECIALLY THE GOVT to take care of you. If I as a woman cannot stand on my own... I don't deserve to stand at all.




Will you marry me??

[GregWeld]

In todays paper.... Woman has to shoot home intruder after he stalks her thru THREE locked doors...


It's also a good reason Cops have mostly stopped carrying .38 --- it's kind of a useless caliber. Sorry. I've had LOTS of discussion with police about "the right" caliber for protection.





By Jeff Black, Staff Writer, NBC News


The recording of a 911 call made during a home invasion in Georgia reveals a chilling scene in which a husband coaches his wife -- home alone with her twin 9-year-old children -- to shoot a determined intruder.


The intruder used a crowbar to bust into the house last Friday and at first intended to rob the suburban Atlanta home in Loganville but shifted his focus to hunting down Melinda Herman and her son and daughter, Walton County investigators told NBC station WXIA in Atlanta.
The family had fled through three locked doors, into a bathroom and then to an upstairs crawl space, but the intruder busted the doors open to stalk the family, police said.



As the incident transpired, husband Donnie Herman was in Atlanta and had his wife on one phone line and the 911 operator on the other, according to the recording, obtained by WXIA and the Atlanta Journal- Constitution.

“Do you hear him? Is he in the house? He’s in the house,” Donnie Herman says.
“Melinda, if he opens that door, you shoot him, you understand.”
“She has a weapon?” asks the dispatcher. “What type of weapon?”
“She has a .38,” Donnie Herman said.
The 911 operator tells him that officers were on the way.
“She shot him. She’s shooting him, she’s shooting him.”
"OK," the dispatcher responds.
"Shoot him again! Shoot him!" Donnie Herman yells, later telling the dispatcher “She shot him, a lot.”
Herman tells the dispatcher he heard a lot of screaming. But it was seven agonizing minutes before he found out that his family was OK, WXIA reported.
Melinda Herman told police that she started shooting when the man opened the door to the crawl space. He pleaded with her to stop, but she kept firing until she was out of bullets, she told police. She then fled to a neighbor's house with her children.
The family is still shaken by what happened.
"Just like I told her that night,” Walton County Sheriff’s Capt. Greg Hall told WXIA. “Ya know, there's right and there's wrong and then there's not natural, and it's not natural for people to have to shoot people, so it is going to bother you ..."
The National Rifle Association tweeted a link about the shooting, apparently using it as an example of responsible gun ownership.
And Sheriff Joe Chapman told The Associated Press that he was proud of the way she handled the incident.
"This lady decided that she wasn't going to be a victim, and I think everyone else looks at this and hopes they have the courage to do what she done," Chapman said Wednesday.
The alleged intruder, identified as Paul Slater, 32, of Atlanta, was shot five times. He remained at a hospital.

[Krazed]

The alleged intruder, identified as Paul Slater, 32, of Atlanta, was shot five times. He remained at a hospital.

I know this is about guns and all. However, this line pisses me off almost as much.

The ALLEGED Intruder? No. he was THE Intruder. No if's, no possibilities. He was there, in the house, breaking in, and being shot.

He may have the right to prove himself not guilty, but given the circumstances, he is 100% guilty at the scene of the crime. This is the kind of crap that the US Needs to get away from. This is the kind of crap (among other things) that is ruining our nation. They are giving him the chance to not be held accountable for his own actions, and to find his way to innocence through some loop hole in the system.

Next thing you know, the woman defending herself will be the guilty party and sentenced somehow.

It just... argh. :willy:

[Ron in SoCal]

An email I recieved today from Guns America. Action this please:

Quick Links:

Find and Contanct your Representative in the US House by Zip Code:
http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/

Contact Your Senators :
http://www.senate.gov/

To Read and Comment on this Article at GunsAmerica:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/we-stand-as-one-contact-congress-on-guns-email-your-contacts/

There is an old adage, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." This week the media is trying to convince us that support for Senator Feinstein's anti-gun legislation is weak, but if we are not PRO-ACTIVE, the legislation will pass as written. You will wake up just in time for SHOT Show with new laws that make your AR-15 a Class 3 weapon. This means that if you want to keep your tactical rifles, you will have to register them, pay a $5-$200 tax, and notify the government if you intend to take them out of state. You will also completely waive your 4th Amendment rights to reasonable search and seizure. ATF will have the right to knock on your door and inspect the weapons anytime they want. You will also see an end to standard capacity magazines. This isn't a threat. It isn't political posturing. Diane Feinstein and the anti-gun machine have already introduced the legislation, and it will be rammed through Congress and signed by the President if we do not Stand As One and act today.

Please contact your legislators immediately, and post the links above to your discussion boards. Also please contact all of the gun companies you do business with and ask them to take action now and don't sit on their resources in reaching out to the gunowners of America. All of them have mailing lists, and all of them are sitting on them pretending that they don't have any responsibility, while doing record business in the stuff that is going to be banned or regulated. This 2nd Amendment crisis is not about KA-CHING. We call out to Midway USA, Gunbroker, Brownells, Sportsmen's Guide, Cabelas and all the firearms and accessory manufacturers. If you have a list, use it. We must Stand As One if we are to defeat this threat to our freedom. Aside from one NRA-ILA email notifying us about the legislation, even the NRA has been silent. Facebook isn't enough. Our testing has shown that the effectiveness of Facebook is very small. You MUST EMAIL YOUR LISTS THIS WEEK before the legislation gains public support. We are about to enter a dark time in 2nd Amendment freedom and political wrangling from the NRA isn't going to cut it this far out from an election. The legislators need to hear from us, that we will work to defeat them in their next election bid.

This is not an alarmist position. The anti-gun machine was prepared for this opportunity, and they are very well organized. Senator Feinstein herself admitted that she has been working since last year to investigate all of the loopholes from the last "Assault Weapons Ban" and eliminate them. That means that this time there will be no thumbhole stocks, no sawed off flashhiders, no California "bullet buttons." It is almost as though the anti-gunners allowed the old ban to end in hopes of making a better one this time. This legislation is extremely comprehensive and if it passes, every tactical rifle in America will instantly become a Class 3 weapon. No new guns will be produced at all, effectively shuttering every AR-15 manufacturer in the country.

Don't be fooled by the pollsters this time, for or against. They key point in this legislation is that we are more than a year from the start of the next campaigns for the mid-term elections. The anti-gun lobbyists, as you read this, are contacting the House and Senate members trying to convince them that American voters are not going to punish them for voting for new and sweeping gun control. Few politicians actually stand for anything, so how we react is paramount to defeating this legislation. You must notify your legislators that you are watching their vote and that you will work to defeat them in their next election bid if they vote for any new gun legislation that comes out of the Sandy Hook shootings. Over 500 people have been killed in Chicago this year, the most gun restrictive city in the USA. We will not sacrifice our 2nd Amendment rights because the media is up in arms about the slaughter of 20 white kids by a mentally disturbed individual who stole his mommy's guns.

Also don't think that the Supreme Court is going to help us on this one. The legislation clearly identifies the approach to grandfathered weapons as a tax, and the Supreme Court has recently dealt with this issue on Obamacare, and refused to strike it down. Our swing vote, the George W. Bush appointed Justice Stevens, has already demonstrated that he will not strike down major legislation from the bench if he can find a way to avoid it, and this tax approach to our guns won't even make the Supreme Court. You may think that the original 2nd Amendment guaranteed us the right to the same guns at the government (muskets at the time), but there is plenty of Federal case law from the 1986 machinegun ban that has laid the groundwork for this Feinstein bill. It will pass, and it will stand.

If we Stand As One this week, the legislation will be stopped. Please contact your reps in the House and your Senators today. Mobilize your friends and family. Email everyone in your contact list. And most importantly post the direct links above (not to GunsAmerica) to every single discussion board, blog or forum to which you frequent.

As we have tried to explain already, GunsAmerica is all alone out here in this fight. Please encourage the gun websites you do business with to join our Stand As One campaign and email their mailing lists to fight this game changing legislation. We are all NRA Life and Endowment members here at GunsAmerica, yet nothing has come from NRA. Our competitors Gunbroker have sent nothing, apparently content with the spike in business. Midway USA has a huge list, yet nothing has come from them. Brownells is in the news for selling 3 1/2 years of magazines in one day, yet nothing has come from their email list. And worst of all, Cheaper Than Dirt actually announced that they would stop selling guns online, supporting the public opinion against our guns. Sportsman's Guide even had the nerve to send a happy go lucky "After Christmas" sale email on AR-15 accessories. Don't boycott these companies. Contact these companies! We have to stand together or we are going to lose. Now is not the time to argue and sit on our resources of huge email lists to America's gun enthusiasts. We Stand As One!

Some of you got upset at us calling Alex Jones a turd in the punchbowl of 2nd Amendment freedom, but it is the truth. The conspiracy theory websites do not stand with us on this one, though they claim that they do. A lot of young people are caught up in a conspiracy theory mindset that is preventing them from seeing the forest through the trees. 2nd Amendment rights were never about hunting, and there has always been an out in the open "conspiracy" against them. if you espouse big government control and oversight of all Americans, you obviously don't want free thinkers to be armed. It doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to figure out that Diane Feinstein wants to watch and control all Americans, and disarming us is an important step for her and her ilk. Alex Jones and his gang may seem well intentioned, but what they really want is internet traffic. They want to sell you the movies and the water purifiers and the survival food and the male enhancement pills, PERIOD. Guns are just the latest thing on the conspiracy theory bandwagon because it "gets the buzz going." They may be gun loving Americans at heart, but what is driving them today is the almighty but ever weakening $$$ dollar.

Diane Feinstein doesn't care how much survival food you have in your bunker . But what she does have is the actual power to halt the production of an entire class of firearms and magazines, and she plans to do that, this week. Get out of your armchair and get into action.

This quote from a recent article in the Russian newspaper Pravda urging us to not give up our 2nd Amendment freedom says a great deal:

Do not be fooled by a belief that progressives, leftists hate guns. Oh, no, they do not. What they hate is guns in the hands of those who are not marching in lock step of their ideology. They hate guns in the hands of those who think for themselves and do not obey without question. They hate guns in those whom they have slated for a barrel to the back of the ear.

We must Stand As One!

GunsAmerica
Where America Buys and Sells Guns



This is an official GunsAmerica Email Notification.

[ironworks]

Ok I'm not much of a conspiracy theory kinda guy. But this who reporting of our news on this subject has bothered me. Then I saw this video on facebook today.

Some stuff seems like a stretch, but some of it is very valid points.

Wx9GxXYKx_8

[GregWeld]

I was at the Seattle PD range today -- this is also a members only gun store. They sold out of 80 AR-15 style rifles they had in stock in 3 days after the talking heads on tv blabbered on about banning assault style rifles. There is ONE hanging on the wall -- which is now "UP FOR BID" -- you must submit a bid and the highest bidder will be the purchaser. This is the only one left for sale. Bidding started at $950

They have a ONE limit on magazines (they are not CLIPS as commonly called but that's just a misuse of a term that people don't understand and is now common practice) -- they have sold out of most and were told by the suppliers that they are not taking any more orders.

They are also sold out of .223 rounds

This is only important because this is a POLICE shooting range and member only shop. While they do allow "others" -- the others have to be vetted by a member. It's not open to the general public.

OMG what a sales boon this has been for retailers and manufacturers!!

Note they have plenty of suppressors in stock... nobody is talking about banning them. :willy: :lol:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I was at the Seattle PD range today -- this is also a members only gun store. They sold out of 80 AR-15 style rifles they had in stock in 3 days after the talking heads on tv blabbered on about banning assault style rifles. There is ONE hanging on the wall -- which is now "UP FOR BID" -- you must submit a bid and the highest bidder will be the purchaser. This is the only one left for sale. Bidding started at $950

They have a ONE limit on magazines (they are not CLIPS as commonly called but that's just a misuse of a term that people don't understand and is now common practice) -- they have sold out of most and were told by the suppliers that they are not taking any more orders.

They are also sold out of .223 rounds

This is only important because this is a POLICE shooting range and member only shop. While they do allow "others" -- the others have to be vetted by a member. It's not open to the general public.

OMG what a sales boon this has been for retailers and manufacturers!!

Note they have plenty of suppressors in stock... nobody is talking about banning them. :willy: :lol:

Probably cause you have to jump throught flaming hoops to buy one. I'd rather just make one from scratch.
Anti's will never figure out that bans and restrictions just increases how many people own them. This weekends gun show was huge. Probably more than the show before BOH's first election.

Wanna go halvies to buy Bushmaster? The should have a stellar year. Average price for a stripped lower receiver is $400-800 dollars. I saw a Noveske stripped N2 going for $1100. Holy crapski.

[Sieg]

Ok I'm not much of a conspiracy theory kinda guy. But this who reporting of our news on this subject has bothered me. Then I saw this video on facebook today.

Some stuff seems like a stretch, but some of it is very valid points.
Considering a situation like Sandy Hook I was very surprised there was not one survivor or victim that was transported and later died in a hospital. How does one shooter in a chaotic environment have a 100% instant kill ratio? I'm well above average with a handgun and there is no way IMO.

I can't recall seeing any Shady Hook crime scene photo's?

This is as convincing as the facts surrounding the JFK assassination. Having toured the book depository and grounds with a critical eye the official account is simply impossible. Remington XP-100 fireball from the storm grate in the curb............autopsy photo's retouched to conceal the rear exit wound.

Motives.............political leverage.

Sadly 80% of the people are sheep following the Sheppard to be sheared.

[GregWeld]

While discussing the sold out condition of the AR style rifles... there were 3 or 4 other customer/members in the shop (it's very small) and 3 guys behind the counter (all police or retired police).... a discussion broke out about "the ban"... these are POLICEMEN! Not one of them was FOR a ban of any kind.

REALLY?? These guys work the streets - arresting bad guys - and they weren't for a ban of any kind. Why? To a man - each voiced that making something illegal was of no use and was no deterrent.

[sniper]

I believe the shooter in Sandy Hook never had an AR. He used all handguns.
They said the AR was found in the trunk of his stolen car.

As far as the tax goes. It is already in place, it's called a Form 4. It is used for short barreled and suppressed rifles. One problem with it is that the Head LEO has to sign off on the form for it to be approved. In my County, our Sheriff refuses to sign one. But there are ways to work around him.

I do not agree with it in it's current form either, but it would be really easy for the fed to mandate all semi autos into this law.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

From the over head video it wasn't even an AR type. Looked like a Saiga 12 gauge to me. First reports by the Sargent on scene said that the AR was found in the trunk. Then later reports stated the AR was found inside along with 4 hand guns. How does a Sargent mistake this detail?

[Sieg]

From the over head video it wasn't even an AR type. Looked like a Saiga 12 gauge to me. First reports by the Sargent on scene said that the AR was found in the trunk. Then later reports stated the AR was found inside along with 4 hand guns. How does a Sargent mistake this detail?
I'm trying to stay neutral on this but there's so many skewed details and now the incident has pretty much dropped off the radar and momentum has switched to banning efforts. Perfect storm?

[pjs65]

More fodder on statistics:

FWNOiw_XIV8

:cheers:

I wouldn,t argue with that , especially the last bit . I have posted some comments earlier but as iam from the UK and that i do not feel the need to arm myself .I don,t own or wish to own a gun or know anything about them ,i shall not comment about guns any more as i couldn,t careless about them . In the UK Piers Morgan is a well known arse and we are happy that he prefers to live in the states instead of on our violent little island . He is what we call a **** stirrer as he gives the pot a shake to see what floats to the top , the best thing to do is ignore him .
As in the video our problem is violent crime but its mainly the sort you get in town centers after the bars have shut , idiots who can,t handle drink . A few years back our far sighted no i mean short sighted government decided to bring in 24 hour opening times for bars , a la Europe . The hope was that allowing people longer to drink meant they were less likely to rush down 10 pints before closing time at 11pm and stagger about causing trouble. Well i don,t need to explain what happens when you allow a country that has a drinking habit like ours longer to drink . So our average town centers are at best to be treated with caution during the early hours in order to avoid drunks .
As a species we are naturally violent and we live in a violent society ,we are gready , vain and sadisitic and i see very little hope that that will change . We have caused far more injusticies than we can ever hope to right .
As we are meant to be friends i will tell you what our two governments do to our friends . Diego Garcia is a US military base in the Indian ocean and the island that its on is a British colony with a local population , its position makes it handy for bombing raids on the middle east and Asia . We removed the inhabitants years ago and packed them off to another island .During the Iraq war Tony Blairs government whilst using his so called ethical foreign policy , past a law that stripped the people of Diego Garcia of any rights to their island . Only recently have the law courts overturned this , they discribed Tony Blairs act as the most despicable act performed by a British government . The truth is that whilst liberating Iraq the British government disowned the people of Diego Garcia of their home , a very shameful act by a government and where was this in the press , i guess they couldn.t hack that phone .
Don,t trust your government do not listen to the biased press and don,t let people stir you up . Pete

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I'm trying to stay neutral on this but there's so many skewed details and now the incident has pretty much dropped off the radar and momentum has switched to banning efforts. Perfect storm?

anything to rile the masses. Pearl Harbor, World trade, Fiscal cliff....who knows what Governments are capable of? I think if we all put the glasses on we wouldn't like it.

Like Pete from across the pond says. Question everything.

[parsonsj]

:wow:

MpraJYnbVtE

[nicks67ca]

I was very surprised there was not one survivor or victim that was transported and later died in a hospital.

There was 2 that died at the hospital. I know the nurse that was on call at the ER when they arrived.



I can't recall seeing any Shady Hook crime scene photo's?


Its an active investigation I'm not sure that is commonly released?

First reports by the Sargent on scene said that the AR was found in the trunk. Then later reports stated the AR was found inside along with 4 hand guns. How does a Sargent mistake this detail?

600 Kids, Hundreds more parents, police, paramedics, and other first responder one could only guess it was pure chaos there. There was such a demand for information that to much detail was given to fast. I would also bet that they limited the scene exposure due to its obvious emotional impact on people.

Its easy to draw these conspiracy lines when you're outside the community but when its your community and the names and faces are people you know its really hard to say they are "conspiring" unless the last 30 years was all an act.

Pass me the Reynolds Wrap.

[GregWeld]

^^^^^^^^^^^ totally agree with that!


:cheers:

[Sieg]

There was 2 that died at the hospital. I know the nurse that was on call at the ER when they arrived.

Its an active investigation I'm not sure that is commonly released?
Its easy to draw these conspiracy lines when you're outside the community but when its your community and the names and faces are people you know its really hard to say they are "conspiring" unless the last 30 years was all an act.

Pass me the Reynolds Wrap.

Thanks for the information and condolences. I live only a few miles from the Kip Kinkle/Thurston HS shooting and understand the community impact. I've been on a police ride along that involved a potential suicidal shooter and SWAT team deployment so I have a little insight on that front. I'm not trying to be insensitive in any way. As noted I try to stay neutral but the media bias and theatrics makes it tough some times. :thumbsup:

[nicks67ca]

Thanks for the information and condolences. I live only a few miles from the Kip Kinkle/Thurston HS shooting and understand the community impact. I've been on a police ride along that involved a potential suicidal shooter and SWAT team deployment so I have a little insight on that front. I'm not trying to be insensitive in any way. As noted I try to stay neutral but the media bias and theatrics makes it tough some times. :thumbsup:

Thanks and I didn't take it as being insensitive.:thumbsup:
This event like most recent events are being exploited for all its worth. The shock factor is high and fresh in our minds, and the media is in the middle looking for page visits and likes. There is no "one answer / action" fixes all.

[nicks67ca]

I was at the Seattle PD range today -- this is also a members only gun store. They sold out of 80 AR-15 style rifles they had in stock in 3 days after the talking heads on tv blabbered on about banning assault style rifles. There is ONE hanging on the wall -- which is now "UP FOR BID" -- you must submit a bid and the highest bidder will be the purchaser. This is the only one left for sale. Bidding started at $950

They have a ONE limit on magazines (they are not CLIPS as commonly called but that's just a misuse of a term that people don't understand and is now common practice) -- they have sold out of most and were told by the suppliers that they are not taking any more orders.

They are also sold out of .223 rounds

As one who enjoys this hobby this makes it really hard to participate when its a $1/round online now.....

[Sieg]

As one who enjoys this hobby this makes it really hard to participate when its a $1/round online now.....

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/673612/rcbs-pro2000-progressive-press

Works for me in four calibers anyway. :unibrow:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

As one who enjoys this hobby this makes it really hard to participate when its a $1/round online now.....

That's why I hedge ammo when it's cheap. An average target outing we go through at least 600-700 rounds depending on how many people want to try the different firearms. .30 cents a round if you buy in bulk.

I understand the loss but you have to admit law spokesman and the media has totally fowled the situation up bad.

[nicks67ca]

That's why I hedge ammo when it's cheap. An average target outing we go through at least 600-700 rounds depending on how many people want to try the different firearms. .30 cents a round if you buy in bulk.

I understand the loss but you have to admit law spokesman and the media has totally fowled the situation up bad.

I hedged too but I let it slide and got to the point where i don't want to dip into the reserves to go play.

Yes I agree I think there was unneeded pressure and an expectation of live updates which lead to some of the misinformation. On the flip side how bad would the tin foil theories be if there was no communication other than "its an active case"?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Investigators do with hold important information for a good reason. To compile the truth.

I will say it again. The whole AW crusade upsets me cause it ignores the true problem and wastes resources on something that will not cure the problem with our violent society. I don't have the answers but am hopefull that voice of reason will prevail.

[GregWeld]

Here's something you all might find "interesting":


Gun politics in Switzerland are unique in Europe. Switzerland does not have a standing army, instead opting for a people's militia for its national defense. The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations; Switzerland thus has one of the highest militia gun ownership rates in the world.


In Switzerland, the police registered a total of 527,897 criminal offenses in 2010, including 53 killings and 187 attempted murders.

[nicks67ca]

The AW ban is just a feel good movement and doesn't help the responsible, mentally stable, and lawful gun owners (myself included). One thing I saw is that there are some serious federal funding shortfalls in linking the known mentally ill and criminals.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/12/nation/la-na-background-checks-20130113

one key thing was there was $125m authorized but only $5m appropriated for a more comprehensive database.

Why are we looking for new measures even though we can't pay for the ones we have?

I am still on the fence on hi cap mags. I own many hi cap mags for my xm but i find myself leaning towards my 1911 and 12ga 870 in a home defensive situation. In the Newtown case if only 10rd were available it may have required more reloads and more time for the police to respond. I do see some value in some safety measures around owning hi cap mags.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

The AW ban is just a feel good movement and doesn't help the responsible, mentally stable, and lawful gun owners (myself included). One thing I saw is that there are some serious federal funding shortfalls in linking the known mentally ill and criminals.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/12/nation/la-na-background-checks-20130113

one key thing was there was $125m authorized but only $5m appropriated for a more comprehensive database.

Why are we looking for new measures even though we can't pay for the ones we have?

I am still on the fence on hi cap mags. I own many hi cap mags for my xm but i find myself leaning towards my 1911 and 12ga 870 in a home defensive situation. In the Newtown case if only 10rd were available it may have required more reloads and more time for the police to respond. I do see some value in some safety measures around owning hi cap mags.

Yes, it will turn into a giant money pit.

I hear the idea on hi cap magazines alot. If you look at the statement it totally disreguards the root problem. Here is what that says. " by not having a high capacity magazine and only limited to 10 rounds it give potential victims time to hide and run while the gunman is reloading ". But how about not having the gunman there in the first place. So 10 dead is better than 30? Am I the only one that sees the wrong in the statement the media shoves in our faces? Just wondering.

High caps are nice. I didn't buy or own my firearms for home protection. Im a collector and target shooter. Its nice not to reload so often at the range.

[Sieg]

In Switzerland, the police registered a total of 527,897 criminal offenses in 2010, including 53 killings and 187 attempted murders.

Facebook post:

There were more murders in Chicago in 2012 than all Allied losses in Afghanistan last year. There were 405 Coalition deaths in Afghanistan in 2012.
310 of those 405 deaths were Americans. Meanwhile, in the Gun Free liberal Nirvana of Barry Obama’s Chicago, there were 532 homicides in 2012. Tell me again how well gun control works?

[Spiffav8]

The AW ban is just a feel good movement and doesn't help the responsible, mentally stable, and lawful gun owners (myself included). One thing I saw is that there are some serious federal funding shortfalls in linking the known mentally ill and criminals.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/12/nation/la-na-background-checks-20130113

one key thing was there was $125m authorized but only $5m appropriated for a more comprehensive database.

Why are we looking for new measures even though we can't pay for the ones we have?

I am still on the fence on hi cap mags. I own many hi cap mags for my xm but i find myself leaning towards my 1911 and 12ga 870 in a home defensive situation. In the Newtown case if only 10rd were available it may have required more reloads and more time for the police to respond. I do see some value in some safety measures around owning hi cap mags.


There are numerous 'tools' for every job. Some being a little better suited for the task at hand than others. A gun is simply a tool and when you break it down, some are better than others. A high capacity magazine is simply a part or feature of that specific gun. As I stated before, it really doesn't take any time to change out a magazine. I can reload my 1911 (8 rounds) faster than I can my SIG P226 and I'm a better shot with my SIG. I try to look at things like this from 'the other side'. Let's say someone used a 1911 to commit a crime like a school shooting. The larger caliber would be more effective. Thinner magazines would mean less bulk and one could move and fire more effectively, just to point out a few. My point is, that it's not the tool, it's how it's used. Banning any type of weapon or magazine capacity isn't the answer. Education on responsible gun ownership and more action against crime, while helping mentally unstable people (who are not criminals) is the key.

There is NO justification for taking anything away from law abiding people. The actions by a great number of our elected officials, who are using the recent shootings to stir an emotional response, rather than make an informed and rational decision, that would be a positive, is shameful. Good people are being treated as criminals and having their rights stripped away. IF they are allowed to take your 2nd amendment rights, what's to say or stop them from taking more? It doesn't matter what side of the issue you are on. What matters is taking the right/smart actions to protect our rights. The current knee jerking does not address the root cause of violent crime in the US.

[nicks67ca]

Yes, it will turn into a giant money pit.

I hear the idea on hi cap magazines alot. If you look at the statement it totally disreguards the root problem. Here is what that says. " by not having a high capacity magazine and only limited to 10 rounds it give potential victims time to hide and run while the gunman is reloading ". But how about not having the gunman there in the first place. So 10 dead is better than 30? Am I the only one that sees the wrong in the statement the media shoves in our faces? Just wondering.

High caps are nice. I didn't buy or own my firearms for home protection. Im a collector and target shooter. Its nice not to reload so often at the range.

Great point rationalizing a lower number is not the answer. I am also a collector and target shooter mostly.

[nicks67ca]

There is NO justification for taking anything away from law abiding people. The actions by a great number of our elected officials, who are using the recent shootings to stir an emotional response, rather than make an informed and rational decision, that would be a positive, is shameful. Good people are being treated as criminals and having their rights stripped away. IF they are allowed to take your 2nd amendment rights, what's to say or stop them from taking more? It doesn't matter what side of the issue you are on. What matters is taking the right/smart actions to protect our rights. The current knee jerking does not address the root cause of violent crime in the US.

I didn't say taking away I think safety measures around owning is important. I agree taking away doesn't solve the core issue. It's also a slippery slope for other rights. While its a shame that law abiding citizens need to go through a longer process for legal ownership that is the current environment we are in. If registration at the time of purchase was done WITH a comprehensive background check system like mental illness for the purchaser and in the household, and better criminal record links it might be a step worth considering. I for one never have an issue waiting the 30 minutes to fill out the proper paper work when I purchase.

This is no a one size fits all answer. There needs to be equal effort in mental health, and following through on the safeguards already in place.

[realcoray]

I didn't say taking away I think safety measures around owning is important. I agree taking away doesn't solve the core issue. It's also a slippery slope for other rights. While its a shame that law abiding citizens need to go through a longer process for legal ownership that is the current environment we are in. If registration at the time of purchase was done WITH a comprehensive background check system like mental illness for the purchaser and in the household, and better criminal record links it might be a step worth considering. I for one never have an issue waiting the 30 minutes to fill out the proper paper work when I purchase.

This is no a one size fits all answer. There needs to be equal effort in mental health, and following through on the safeguards already in place.

The question I have is, how is verifying in all transactions that the buyer can legally own the weapon, infringing on your rights?

What if to purchase a gun, from ANY source, you needed a permit. The permit process would be equivilent to the current process, with a waiting period and background searches. The permit would be valid for say 6 months.

With a permit, you could purchase any weapon with no wait but it would either have to be overseen by law enforcement, or you could certainly create a situation where licensed sellers could handle this.

The same would apply to private sales, you'd have to perform the transaction through a seller or your sherrif.

Granted, this sort of stuff would probably mean higher fees, but it has benefits for gun purchasers, and would help close the giant loophole where criminals have plenty of ways to get guns.

Essentially, the more we are able to be sure that guns are getting into the hands of responsible people, the less control you need on the guns themselves. If it's just willy nilly which it basically is right now, then I'd rather not have assault rifles be everywhere, but if only stand up people have them, then I could care less.

[camcojb]

The question I have is, how is verifying in all transactions that the buyer can legally own the weapon, infringing on your rights?

What if to purchase a gun, from ANY source, you needed a permit. The permit process would be equivilent to the current process, with a waiting period and background searches. The permit would be valid for say 6 months.

With a permit, you could purchase any weapon with no wait but it would either have to be overseen by law enforcement, or you could certainly create a situation where licensed sellers could handle this.

The same would apply to private sales, you'd have to perform the transaction through a seller or your sherrif.

Granted, this sort of stuff would probably mean higher fees, but it has benefits for gun purchasers, and would help close the giant loophole where criminals have plenty of ways to get guns.

Essentially, the more we are able to be sure that guns are getting into the hands of responsible people, the less control you need on the guns themselves. If it's just willy nilly which it basically is right now, then I'd rather not have assault rifles be everywhere, but if only stand up people have them, then I could care less.How will this slow down criminals? We have laws against drugs you know, and they're more readily available than ever, haven't even made a dent in them. I am not against background checks, I think they need to be continued. I just don't think that's going to prevent what just happened. The previous assault weapon ban would not have changed anything in this instance.

[nicks67ca]

The question I have is, how is verifying in all transactions that the buyer can legally own the weapon, infringing on your rights?

What if to purchase a gun, from ANY source, you needed a permit. The permit process would be equivilent to the current process, with a waiting period and background searches. The permit would be valid for say 6 months.

With a permit, you could purchase any weapon with no wait but it would either have to be overseen by law enforcement, or you could certainly create a situation where licensed sellers could handle this.

The same would apply to private sales, you'd have to perform the transaction through a seller or your sherrif.

Granted, this sort of stuff would probably mean higher fees, but it has benefits for gun purchasers, and would help close the giant loophole where criminals have plenty of ways to get guns.

Essentially, the more we are able to be sure that guns are getting into the hands of responsible people, the less control you need on the guns themselves. If it's just willy nilly which it basically is right now, then I'd rather not have assault rifles be everywhere, but if only stand up people have them, then I could care less.

I would agree with private sale transfers there is no good check and balance. For example in Ct you can call 24/7 to get a private sale authorization from the state but its not required (on long guns).

I actually enjoy being a permit holder I can buy on the spot with no waiting period. I have gone through the process and found it simple and effective. I actually know people who have been turned down for permits due to choices they made in the past.

There are too many what if scenarios that can all be played out. To effectively create reform around a constantly evolving criminal and mental thought process is like guessing tonight's lotto numbers. If you know it can you share it?:thumbsup:

[realcoray]

There are too many what if scenarios that can all be played out. To effectively create reform around a constantly evolving criminal and mental thought process is like guessing tonight's lotto numbers. If you know it can you share it?:thumbsup:

Without a doubt criminals could probably still get guns. I mean the typical methods they might employ now would still work. Many guns criminals end up with were stolen from legal owners for example.

The thing is, it is not valid to say that because we can't seal guns off completely from criminals and crazy people, that we just shouldn't try to close the existing giant holes.

[camcojb]

Without a doubt criminals could probably still get guns. I mean the typical methods they might employ now would still work. Many guns criminals end up with were stolen from legal owners for example.

The thing is, it is not valid to say that because we can't seal guns off completely from criminals and crazy people, that we just shouldn't try to close the existing giant holes.
There is NO doubt that they will still get guns. How would your ideas have prevented the last tragedy? Again, I'm not against background checks, we have the ten day waiting period here for gun purchases. If you make it so all sales/transfers require this it's fine with me. But that does not stop what's happening. We need to look at other options to prevent or limit these tragedies. For some reason laws and gun-free zones don't seem to deter criminals.

[realcoray]

There is NO doubt that they will still get guns. How would your ideas have prevented the last tragedy? Again, I'm not against background checks, we have the ten day waiting period here for gun purchases. If you make it so all sales/transfers require this it's fine with me. But that does not stop what's happening. We need to look at other options to prevent or limit these tragedies. For some reason laws and gun-free zones don't seem to deter criminals.

I agree completely, there isn't anything you can do to prevent someone who wants a weapon from getting one, no matter what country you live in, no matter the laws.

The school shooting would still have occured (especially as some apparently believe, that the government did it), the aurora shooting would still have occured, as would have others.

There is no gun related solution that is going to just get rid of mass shootings, but that doesn't mean it's not a solid idea to make it more difficult for known felons to get weapons.

I'd rather felons have to do something criminal to get a gun (beyond the fact it's not legal for them to have one), than to just buy it from a gunshow without answering any questions.

[Shmoov69]

We are all (or mostly) talking rationally and logically here. That is NOT the point to the government, they don't care If it's rational or logical..... Because rationality and logic does NOT fit thier agenda. Which IS to disarm the population. PERIOD. It's about power and control, NOT freedom, and this shooting fits just perfectly. I'm not saying that they "done it", but they are going to exploit it for ALL its worth to fit their agenda.

One step at a time, and this is just a big step for them.
My .02

Tinfoil anyone?!? LOL!:willy:

There are numerous 'tools' for every job. Some being a little better suited for the task at hand than others. A gun is simply a tool and when you break it down, some are better than others. A high capacity magazine is simply a part or feature of that specific gun. As I stated before, it really doesn't take any time to change out a magazine. I can reload my 1911 (8 rounds) faster than I can my SIG P226 and I'm a better shot with my SIG. I try to look at things like this from 'the other side'. Let's say someone used a 1911 to commit a crime like a school shooting. The larger caliber would be more effective. Thinner magazines would mean less bulk and one could move and fire more effectively, just to point out a few. My point is, that it's not the tool, it's how it's used. Banning any type of weapon or magazine capacity isn't the answer. Education on responsible gun ownership and more action against crime, while helping mentally unstable people (who are not criminals) is the key.

There is NO justification for taking anything away from law abiding people. The actions by a great number of our elected officials, who are using the recent shootings to stir an emotional response, rather than make an informed and rational decision, that would be a positive, is shameful. Good people are being treated as criminals and having their rights stripped away. IF they are allowed to take your 2nd amendment rights, what's to say or stop them from taking more? It doesn't matter what side of the issue you are on. What matters is taking the right/smart actions to protect our rights. The current knee jerking does not address the root cause of violent crime in the US.

[camcojb]

I'd rather felons have to do something criminal to get a gun (beyond the fact it's not legal for them to have one), than to just buy it from a gunshow without answering any questions.
How does a gun show differ from a transaction anywhere else?

[GregWeld]

The latest Murder Statistics for the world: (Murders per 100,000 citizens)

Honduras 91.6
El Salvador 69.2
Cote d'lvoire 56.9
Jamaica 52.2
Venezuela 45.1
Belize 41.4
US Virgin Islands 39.2
Guatemala 38.5
Saint Kits and Nevis 38.2
Zambia 38.0
Uganda 36.3
Malawi 36.0
Lesotho 35.2
Trinidad and Tobago 35.2
Colombia 33.4
South Africa 31.8
Congo 30.8
Central African Republic 29.3
Bahamas 27.4
Puerto Rico 26.2
Saint Lucia 25.2
Dominican Republic 25.0
Tanzania 24.5
Sudan 24.2
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9
Ethiopia 22.5
Guinea 22.5
Dominica 22.1
Burundi 21.7
Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7
Panama 21.6
Brazil 21.0
Equatorial Guinea 20.7
Guinea-Bissau 20.2
Kenya 20.1
Kyrgyzstan 20.1
Cameroon 19.7
Montserrat 19.7
Greenland 19.2
Angola 19.0
Guyana 18.6
Burkina Faso 18.0
Eritrea 17.8
Namibia 17.2
Rwanda 17.1
Mexico 16.9
Chad 15.8
Ghana 15.7
Ecuador 15.2
North Korea 15.2
Benin 15.1
Sierra Leone 14.9
Mauritania 14.7
Botswana 14.5
Zimbabwe 14.3
Gabon 13.8
Nicaragua 13.6
French Guiana 13.3
Papua New Guinea 13.0
Swaziland 12.9
Bermuda 12.3
Comoros 12.2
Nigeria 12.2
Cape Verde 11.6
Grenada 11.5
Paraguay 11.5
Barbados 11.3
Togo 10.9
Gambia 10.8
Peru 10.8
Myanmar 10.2
Russia 10.2
Liberia 10.1
Costa Rica 10.0
Nauru 9.8
Bolivia 8.9
Mozambique 8.8
Kazakhstan 8.8
Senegal 8.7
Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7
Mongolia 8.7
British Virgin Islands 8.6
Cayman Islands 8.4
Seychelles 8.3
Madagascar 8.1
Indonesia 8.1
Mali 8.0
Pakistan 7.8
Moldova 7.5
Kiribati 7.3
Guadeloupe 7.0
Haiti 6.9
Timor-Leste 6.9
Anguilla 6.8
Antigua and Barbuda 6.8
Lithuania 6.6
Uruguay 5.9
Philippines 5.4
Ukraine 5.2
Estonia 5.2
Cuba 5.0
Belarus 4.9
Thailand 4.8
Suriname 4.6
Laos 4.6
Georgia 4.3
Martinique 4.2
And ....The United States 4.2
ALL the countries above America have 100% gun bans !!

[Ketzer]

We are all (or mostly) talking rationally and logically here. That is NOT the point to the government, they don't care If it's rational or logical..... Because rationality and logic does NOT fit thier agenda. Which IS to disarm the population.

Word!

Pass the foil, Jimmy.


Jeff-

[Vince@Meanstreets]

How will this slow down criminals? We have laws against drugs you know, and they're more readily available than ever, haven't even made a dent in them. I am not against background checks, I think they need to be continued. I just don't think that's going to prevent what just happened. The previous assault weapon ban would not have changed anything in this instance.

Yes, lets put the money and effort into the root cause. Or is the root cause part of the Governments plan? Not sure what is happening.

Foil? thats old school. Ebay.... $19.95
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrfFY634SlmbBPYBsbCXrXplACzyojR 2nj2M1dzTeq61VXoiik:www.entertainmentearth.com/images/AUTOIMAGES/UC885015lg.jpg

[realcoray]

How does a gun show differ from a transaction anywhere else?

I just picked that arbitrarily, of course to be effective you have to have oversight over all sales, even between individuals.

The other aspect is somehow improving security of guns which legal owners have, but I don't have a lot of ideas that would be truly effective and not be invasive. The angle there is that a key source of guns for typical criminals would be stolen guns.

Technology exists to all but eliminate that, but it would basically have to be mandated and it isn't practical to apply it to the 300 million guns we already have. You can't fix this thing anytime soon and intense gun rights people basically shoot down any idea that doesn't just solve it immediately.

Mandating something like biometric trigger locks so only authorized people can fire a particular gun would take decades to make a difference and would increase the cost of guns. The first thing alone is enough to make most of you dismiss it, since it won't immediately stop all gun murders, and the second one will have people howling also, even though the 2nd amendment doesn't say guns have to be cheap.

Then of course the fact remains that some criminals would be able to secure ones through some other mechanism (smuggled into the country, etc), so since we can't seal them off completely, we may as well not do anything!

The average felon who has a gun, does not have some sort of international weapon traficker bring them guns in shipping containers. Why do that when you can just buy one from a guy down the street? Would they do that when they couldn't buy from down the street?

The cost of a gun smuggled in is probably a multiple of what it would be from a private seller, and many criminals are not rolling in money, so while it's possible, chances decrease that they could secure a working weapon.

Of course then the argument is the knife attacks in China, wouldn't people just use knives? Of course someone can use a knife but it's a lot harder to kill 20+ people with a knife than it is with an assault weapon.

All of that is not even touching on the violent culture and mental health care issues which gun people point to. I agree completely, those things need to be looked at. The reality is, no one change is going to do it, so you look at each area, and take the low hanging fruit, obvious things and some of these gun things are just obvious.

[Shmoov69]

But your missing the antennae to help "throw off" the brain waves!! Gotta have an antennae!! LOL!!:woot:



Foil? thats old school. Ebay.... $19.95
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrfFY634SlmbBPYBsbCXrXplACzyojR 2nj2M1dzTeq61VXoiik:www.entertainmentearth.com/images/AUTOIMAGES/UC885015lg.jpg

[barrrf]

The latest Murder Statistics for the world: (Murders per 100,000 citizens)

Honduras 91.6
El Salvador 69.2
.
.
.
Georgia 4.3
Martinique 4.2
And ....The United States 4.2
ALL the countries above America have 100% gun bans !!

Source please? I need to show other people this.

[GregWeld]

I just wrote to Senator Maria Cantwell and simply stated what I believe to be the issue in the ban on guns....


Which is:

Show me any law that has eliminated an issue by making something illegal. Murder? DUI's? Drugs? Prostitution? It's already illegal to murder someone regardless of the way it's done. What stronger "law" is there? What possible deterrent to someone bent on murdering someone else is there?

Then I simply asked that she quit the political "feel good" law enactment exercise, and get on with the REAL issues Congress should be dealing with.


Of course - these azzholes are LAWMAKERS by definition.... so that's all they actually know, or care to do. Otherwise they're completely useless at best. :D

[GregWeld]

Source please? I need to show other people this.



Well - here's a chart in color....

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454


Here's one that you have to download because it's an excel spread sheet...

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html


Here's one from the UK -- again a database you download...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/oct/13/homicide-rates-country-murder-data


Wikipedia will give you a full page --- color charts and listings by country etc and is probably the easiest "source" to use.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[GregWeld]

While you're looking ---- just Google --- Worst US school murder in history.


Only a couple shots were fired.... and actually I think it was only ONE shot.


And if you want another mass murder of innocent people that didn't use guns...


Try reading about the Murrow Federal Building.

[Tony_SS]

So what do you all think will proposed/enacted tomorrow?

[Sieg]

Here's a nice letter to Biden from the County Sheriff on our northern county boarder.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-vRdWW5C/0/O/i-vRdWW5C.jpg

[Roscoe03]

:bow: :bow: :bow:

[GregWeld]

And there it is in a nutshell..... why make laws that affect ordinary law abiding citizens and that punish manufacturers - thereby their employees etc and all the retailers and their employees -- because of the couple of nut jobs running around.

This is exactly what my police buddies say -- and the people that work (retired cops) at the range etc. While they detest gun violence -- they know bans don't work.


It's just pure political grandstanding.

[DBasher]

:thumbsup:

Just sent Sheriff Mueller an email thanking him....and I'm not even a fan of law enforcement!:_paranoid
Hopefully VP Biden has received thousands of these letters.

I guess we'll see what's said tomorow

:cheers:
Dan

[GregWeld]

Gotta love those Texas dudes!! I like the way this guy thinks!!





The measures potentially implemented by executive action would be different than legislation regarding a possible assault weapons ban or a large magazine ban that may be introduced in Congress, officials said.
Conservatives have raised strong objections to the idea of any executive actions on the part of the White House, saying that the president's efforts constitute a violation of the Second Amendment.

Freshman Rep. Steve Stockman, R-Texas, has even threatened to introduce articles of impeachment.

"Any proposal to abuse executive power and infringe upon gun rights must be repelled with the stiffest legislative force possible,” he said in a statement. “Under no circumstances whatsoever may the government take any action that disarms any peaceable person — much less without due process through an executive declaration without a vote of Congress or a ruling of a court.”

[Sieg]

Sheriff Mueller was interviewed on camera on Fox & Friends this morning. Sounds like this letter has gone viral. :thumbsup:

Here's a nice letter to Biden from the County Sheriff on our northern county boarder.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-vRdWW5C/0/O/i-vRdWW5C.jpg

[Tony_SS]

The Sheriff has the authority over any Federal govt in his county... he can send them packing if he chooses.

[GregWeld]

This actually makes a lot of sense to me.... Obama telling people that added security probably isn't the right thing to do for schools -- while his kids are guarded to the hilt.... You can bet he feels perfectly safe because he's guarded 24/7 by armed guards.



http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2013/01/16/16543105-nra-ad-brings-obama-kids-into-gun-debate?lite

[Vince@Meanstreets]

It would be fair to say he may have a few more serious enemies more than the average citizen.

Here comes the executive order.

[Sieg]

Nauseating.......

Obama Biden stimulus...........a plan that will benefit all the unemployed who while working began hoarding high capacity magazines since the Clinton ban and will now have a retirement plan funded by the tax free dollars of the criminal black-market buyers. Brilliant. You can also bet the Chinese are ramping up magazine production on popular model knock-off's.

[Tony_SS]

This actually makes a lot of sense to me.... Obama telling people that added security probably isn't the right thing to do for schools -- while his kids are guarded to the hilt.... You can bet he feels perfectly safe because he's guarded 24/7 by armed guards.



http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2013/01/16/16543105-nra-ad-brings-obama-kids-into-gun-debate?lite

Not to mention Fast and Furious... what about those gun regulations?

[Ketzer]

I'm seeing lots of articles from common folks and law enforcement who are against bans and new laws that restrict the law-abiding.

I'm not seeing any articles about citizens who are in support of executive orders, bans, having their rights taken away? I am only seeing democratic polititions demanding these things.

[nicks67ca]

Here is a list of the Executive orders.

1. "Issue a presidential memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system."

2. "Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system."

3. "Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system."

4. "Direct the attorney general to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks."

5. "Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun."

6. "Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers."

7. "Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign."

8. "Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission)."

9. "Issue a presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations."

10. "Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement."

11. "Nominate an ATF director."

12. "Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations."

13. "Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime."

14. "Issue a presidential memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence."

15. "Direct the attorney general to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies."

16. "Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes."

17. "Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities."

18. "Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers."

19. "Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education."

20. "Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover."

21. "Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges."

22. "Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations."

23. "Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health."

[Sieg]

24. Upgrade weapons systems and tactical security measures for myself and family members

[Tony_SS]

If you disagree with anything the govt does, you are too crazy to own a gun and put on a no buy list.

I'm sure that is what they are getting at.

[Sieg]

If you disagree with anything the govt does, you are too crazy to own a gun and put on a no buy list.

I'm sure that is what they are getting at.
I agree with a lot of the military's weapons systems and tactics - does that count? :D

[GregWeld]

In Congress -- this will divide into a Republican vs Democrat partisan issue...

I'm all for a lot of the stuff the executive order lays out -- but most of it is just "busy work"... because all the checks in the world don't keep someone from doing something bad - let alone all the stolen stuff people have. And we all know MONEY will buy anything anytime regardless of the crime.

Most of this is nothing more than the tree huggers foisting their socialist version of the world on those that don't agree with them. We should all live in a commune - raise each others babies and just love everybody all the time. :woot:

[Sieg]

Interesting that the news is just releasing the first details of two shootings that took place yesterday vs. before Obama took stage and did his little acting skit with the children.

[Ketzer]

Here is a list of the Executive orders.

1. "Issue a presidential memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system."

2. "Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system."

3. "Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system."

4. "Direct the attorney general to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks."

5. "Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun."

6. "Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers."

7. "Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign."

8. "Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission)."

9. "Issue a presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations."

10. "Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement."

11. "Nominate an ATF director."

12. "Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations."

13. "Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime."

14. "Issue a presidential memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence."

15. "Direct the attorney general to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies."

16. "Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes."

17. "Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities."

18. "Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers."

19. "Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education."

20. "Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover."

21. "Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges."

22. "Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations."

23. "Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health."

Why does any of this need to be an iron fisted executive order?

[transam]

If obama wants all gun owners to have background checks does that mean ftf private sales will be illegal? I would assume they must be done through a licensed dealer for a fee under his new plan?

[Sieg]

Why does any of this need to be an iron fisted executive order?Because the sheep flock to it? Reality is it lack's substance in most cases.

[Spiffav8]

If obama wants all gun owners to have background checks does that mean ftf private sales will be illegal? I would assume they must be done through a licensed dealer for a fee under his new plan?

Yes that's what it means. It would also add the buyer to a list of registered gun owners.

While I am not against anyone buying a gun from another (dealer or private sale) I am against being put on a list. Shouldn't it be a list of criminals and mentally ill people who are not allowed to own guns?

[transam]

These laws are using extreme cases and rare cases to enforce rules that do not apple to 90% of the gun murders out there. To have those 4 kids on stage,staged of course to make sure was pc was such a shame to see. I am not even a hardcore gun rights advocate,but i dont like what i am seeing,and i live in Canada. Im sure next time a thief breaks into a house to steal a gun he will have to ask the owner to run a record check first.

[Z10ROD]

Why does any of this need to be an iron fisted executive order?

EXACTLY why wasn't this already being done ? well because of the lobbiest were scaring people into thinking he could actually take GUNS so nothing was done

ALL GUNS SALES SHOULD CONTAIN A BACKGROUND CK PERIOD even if you have to go to your local gun shop for back ground ck with private sales

no law will ever stop all bad people from gun sales but that doesn't mean we do nothing.

lets see if congress can pull just that off ???

[Spiffav8]

These laws are using extreme cases and rare cases to enforce rules that do not apple to 90% of the gun murders out there. To have those 4 kids on stage,staged of course to make sure was pc was such a shame to see. I am not even a hardcore gun rights advocate,but i dont like what i am seeing,and i live in Canada. Im sure next time a thief breaks into a house to steal a gun he will have to ask the owner to run a record check first. :lol:

Yeah...kind of funny how the gun grabbers are using children to fuel the fire, yet when the Presidents kids are used as an example it's suddenly 'going to far'.

:rolleyes:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

If obama wants all gun owners to have background checks does that mean ftf private sales will be illegal? I would assume they must be done through a licensed dealer for a fee under his new plan?

Most likly adopt CA method of transfers/sales through FFL gun dealers.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

EXACTLY why wasn't this already being done ? well because of the lobbiest were scaring people into thinking he could actually take GUNS so nothing was done

ALL GUNS SALES SHOULD CONTAIN A BACKGROUND CK PERIOD even if you have to go to your local gun shop for back ground ck with private sales

no law will ever stop all bad people from gun sales but that doesn't mean we do nothing.

lets see if congress can pull just that off ???

Funny how that works. The first Biden ban expired in 2006, since then the government has cut budgets to cities which in turn decreased the police forces, that lead to an increase in crime. Cut budgets to the medical field. Now they are talking about a half billion be put to a problem the may have contributed to in the first place?

Oakland CA has a crime problem. Their police force was cut almost in half. The Mayor gets rid of a decent Police chief and now they are looking at hiring a consultant to help deal with the problem they have with crime. Price tag for that is $245K.

I just don't get it.

[Tony_SS]

If obama wants all gun owners to have background checks does that mean ftf private sales will be illegal? I would assume they must be done through a licensed dealer for a fee under his new plan?

No, that is solely determined by your state. He can order some agency to enforce something, and Congress could pass some law, but the states have the authority to legislate, not Congress in this matter.

Many states have already pass their own laws making it illegal for any federal intrusion, and many states have similar bills in the works.

So once again a president is trying use the executive to ignore the Constitution and asking Congress do the same.

Today was a typical response that the govt must 'do something'. That something will result another bureaucratic growth of another perpetual waste program.

If find it interesting how the media and politicians virtually ignore that fact that all the kid killers are on legal pharmaceuticals. That is the problem, and it will get worse because it isn't ignored, but 'encouraged' as 'mental health' treatment will be funded through the roof.

Pretty much the opposite of what needed to be done is happening.

Violent crime has dropped 49% and gun ownership has skyrocketed over the past 20 years. FBI statistics. Guns aren't the problem. Am I preaching to the choir here? :lol:

[GregWeld]

Here is a list of the Executive orders.

1. "Issue a presidential memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system."


Great! This will require years to undertake and billions in additional costs to rehab the oldest bunch of out dated computers in the world. I think some agencies are using punch card and IBM AS400s


2. "Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system."


Another 900 pages of rules and regulations nobody can comprehend.


3. "Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system."


Read number 1


4. "Direct the attorney general to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks."


OMG yes --- NOW we should be doing this!

But first you'd actually have to know who those people are...




5. "Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun."


Really.... This takes an executive order of the POTUS? I thought maybe that was just common sense


6. "Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers."


1900 pages.....


7. "Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign."


In other words --- join the NRA??




8. "Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission)."


Yep - because those damn pesky criminals walking around with 'em stuck in their belts are just not locking up their guns correctly! And we need to make them safer!



9. "Issue a presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations."


You mean they don't do this already?? OMG....



10. "Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement."


Yes -- but if they're lost or stolen -- how are we going to get information on them?? I mean - if we knew where they were they wouldn't be lost would they?


11. "Nominate an ATF director."


He's been in office 4 f'n' years and hasn't done this yet -- now I'm really feeling unsafe because we don't have an ATF director!!




12. "Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations."


OMG -- is this man that stupid? First responders won't go in with an active shooter - they're UNARMED -- School officials are also UNARMED - so in other words the only people that are going to respond will be the POLICE who are armed and are the best trained people in the world.


13. "Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime."


WELL -- BRILLIANT.... like nobody was doing this already.



14. "Issue a presidential memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence."


Or ask any man walking down the street because this ain't rocket science!




15. "Direct the attorney general to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies."



Gun safety? Guns aren't safe -- people do the killing.... Maybe we should ask NASA to develop a Mental Illness personal safety device



16. "Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes."




Yeah because crooks and insane people are so f'n' honest!!!




17. "Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities."


Like they didn't know this already....




18. "Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers."


IT TOOK 18 presidential edicts to get to something that MIGHT help a little.



19. "Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education."


Or -- just call 911




20. "Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover."


But first -- wouldn't this only be helpful to people already seeking help? Not many of these types of goofballs shooters that I've read about were being treated or under professional care.



21. "Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges."


Another 800 pages of gibberish -- but man does that sound like keeping everyone safe to me!!




22. "Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations."


Yes -- because the mentally ill love regulations and abide by them all the time!! I'm feeling safer by the minute!



23. "Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health."



Lip service.... the government is broke - the do gooders don't want the mental institutions these people used to be kept in - we set them free and they're on "skid road" in every town in America.... but somehow these people aren't the ones killing kids in schools or malls or colleges.... They may be pesky nuisances but they're dying from cold weather - bad dumpster dives and booze - not from semi automatics. They need help but have nothing to do with gun violence

[Sieg]

Here's some common sense points from someone DC'ers probably classify as a mental case.


NUGENT: Open letter to Joe Biden on guns

‘Gun control’ won’t save lives

Joe,

Congratulations on your appointment to lead a presidential commission to end gun-related violence.

As a National Rifle Association board member, husband, father, grandfather, law enforcement officer and genuinely concerned American, I too want nothing more than to see evil, senseless massacres stopped. I concur with the president and caring people everywhere: It’s time to end these slaughters.

As you gather your team to study massacres and how to stop them, I offer to you my services and a lifetime of expertise on guns in all their implementations. While I strongly differ with President Obama on many issues, I agree with him that we must work with all we can possibly muster to end these tragedies.

As you begin to formulate your thoughts on how to proceed with your task, I hope your starting point is to provide the president with the facts regarding these slaughters and to offer him common-sense recommendations that are void of a political agenda and will actually make a meaningful difference. If the American people smell a political agenda here, that will only bog down our efforts.

In the spirit of goodwill and a deep desire to end gut-wrenching, incredibly sad and senseless rampages, I offer you the following recommendations:

I encourage you to persuade the president to lead this effort by providing a number of public service announcements. The announcements should include watching out for each other, encouraging parents to be more involved in their children’s lives regarding entertainment choices, and knowing various indicators we should watch for in people who are unstable.

Clearly, the focus on solving these mass murders must be on the mentally ill. In almost every instance of mass killing, there were ample red flags and warning alarms that either were avoided or were not acted upon by mental health professionals, family members, friends and acquaintances. While I deeply respect an individual’s privacy and civil liberties, the American people need basic awareness of what indicators to look for regarding potentially violent, psychotic people. Our collective safety begins with being collectively vigilant.

You will find in your assessment that all of the massacres have occurred in gun-free zones. What gun-free zones create is an environment where good people are unarmed and virtually defenseless against an unstable person intent on committing mass murder. Gun-free zones are modern killing fields. I implore you to recommend that Congress pass a law to ban gun-free zones immediately.

Just like your full-time, armed security detail, qualified citizens with authorized, legal concealed-carry permits should be able to carry weapons virtually everywhere to protect themselves, their loved ones and innocents.

I also implore you to strongly consider recommending that trained school officials have access to weapons to protect students. Just as airline pilots may have access to a weapon to prevent another Sept. 11 mass murder, school officials also should be trained to stop shooting sprees at our schools.

I don’t encourage you to recommend a ban on any weapon, magazine capacity or type of ammunition. That won’t accomplish anything other than prevent the 99.9 percent of responsible, law-abiding Americans from enjoying these modern weapons as we do now. We should never recommend or develop public policy that restricts the rights of the good guys based upon what evil people do or might do. If that were the case, alcohol still would be banned. As you may know, drunk drivers kill an estimated 12,000 Americans each year and hurt tens of thousands more.

I encourage you also to keep this misnamed “gun violence” in perspective. While all deaths are tragic, the vast majority of gun-related murders and violence are committed by gang members who do not use guns that look like — but do not perform like — military assault weapons. The majority of crimes that involve a firearm are committed with handguns. I concurred with you back in 2008 when you stated, “If [Mr. Obama] tries to fool with my Beretta, he’s got a problem.” I trust you still maintain those sentiments.

Again, I offer you my services and a lifetime of expertise. I look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,

Ted Nugent

[GregWeld]

I couldn't copy and paste here --- but you've got to check out what's up in WYOMING....

Hysterical! I may think about moving from Washington to Wyoming - I gotta like these people!



http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/wyoming.asp

[Shmoov69]

Kind of ironic after what just went down........

:lol:

Yeah...kind of funny how the gun grabbers are using children to fuel the fire, yet when the Presidents kids are used as an example it's suddenly 'going to far'.

:rolleyes:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

You wanna know what gets me? The Pres took care of this fast than deciding if we should send aid to Storm Sandy victims. I guess they had to see how much they could put aside for this crusade first.

[Tony_SS]

I couldn't copy and paste here --- but you've got to check out what's up in WYOMING....

Hysterical! I may think about moving from Washington to Wyoming - I gotta like these people!



http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/wyoming.asp

Please do not reference Snopes for the truth... they're extremely biased, not to mention flat out wrong.

It wont let me copy and paste, but the last paragraph says something that the Constitution states that federal law is superior to state law. :lol:

It's like the 10th Amendment doesn't exist to those liberals.

[camcojb]

Please do not reference Snopes for the truth... they're extremely biased, not to mention flat out wrong.

It wont let me copy and paste, but the last paragraph says something that the Constitution states that federal law is superior to state law. :lol:

It's like the 10th Amendment doesn't exist to those liberals.
They're probably going by what currently is happening vs the actual laws or constitution. Reference Californias legal medical marijuana laws and the Feds busting them anyway. :rolleyes:

[Tony_SS]

They're probably going by what currently is happening vs the actual laws or constitution. Reference Californias legal medical marijuana laws and the Feds busting them anyway. :rolleyes:

True, but I would refer them to the states of WA and CO and how they recently legalized marijuana for recreational use. Yes, states can do and did that. :)

[intocarss]

COLUMBINE STUDENT'S FATHER 12 YEARS LATER!!(2011)

Guess our national leaders didn't expect this. On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good &evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers. "The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart. "In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.

Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air. You've stripped away our heritage, You've outlawed simple prayer. Now gunshots fill our classrooms, And precious children die. You seek for answers everywhere, And ask the question "Why?" You regulate restrictive laws, Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand, That God is what we need!

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him.

To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone! My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!" - Darrell Scott

[camcojb]

True, but I would refer them to the states of WA and CO and how they recently legalized marijuana for recreational use. Yes, states can do and did that. :)
and how long do you think before the Feds start busting them? It's legal here too, and it makes no difference to them.

[Tony_SS]

and how long do you think before the Feds start busting them? It's legal here too, and it makes no difference to them.

I don't know.. hopefully never. Maybe if enough states/sheriff's stand up they'll back down, but it seems the power does what it wants.

[Tony_SS]

Federal Law ALWAYS supersedes State Law. It is known as the The Supremacy Clause and it can be found in Article VI, clause 2 of the United States Constitution. It establishes the U.S. Constitution, Federal Statutes, and U.S. Treaties as "the supreme law of the land." The text decrees these to be the highest form of law in the U.S. legal system, and mandates that all state judges must follow federal law when a conflict arises between federal law and either the state constitution or state law of any state. (Note that the word "must" is used, which makes it a necessity, a compulsion.)

Through 2010, resolutions have been introduced in the legislatures of 27 states that would nullify federal authority over such local firearms. The legislation passed in Montana and Tennessee in 2009 and in Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, South Dakota, Utah, and Wyoming the following year. South Carolina has taken the issue one step further: in 2010 a bill was introduced which would effectively nullify all gun registration laws within the state.

HOWEVER, unless the Supreme Court reverses its decision from 1958 Cooper V. Aaron, (not likely) the Supreme Court of the United States held that federal law prevails over state law due to the operation of the Supremacy Clause, and that federal law "can neither be nullified openly and directly by state legislators or state executive or judicial officers nor nullified indirectly by them through evasive schemes . . . ." Thus, state laws purporting to nullify federal statutes or to exempt states and their citizens from federal statutes have only SYMBOLIC IMPACT.

Sorry Greg but that is just not true. This article explains here:

http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2010/03/29/whos-supreme-the-supremacy-clause-smackdown/

The key is that the federal government was supreme only in its enumerated powers under the confines of the Constitution. That's all the supremacy clause says. It doesn't say the fed govt is a King to rule over us.

It's important to remember the States created the Federal govt, not the other way around. We have States for a reason, and that which is not delegated specifically to the fed govt, bound by the Constitution, is reserved to the states and the people. 10th Amendment.

The States did not create a 'King', the fought a war to escape from one. Original intent can not be ignored to those who try and interpret the Constitution.

[Shmoov69]

COLUMBINE STUDENT'S FATHER 12 YEARS LATER!!(2011)

- Darrell Scott

Thanks for that info, I had not heard that. As most of y'all know already, I agree!!



The States did not create a 'King', the fought a war to escape from one. Original intent can not be ignored to those who try and interpret the Constitution.

T, why do want to bring up, the "original intent" of the Constitution?? The government has been ignoring that for years!!! :mad:

[sniper]

Original intent can not be ignored to those who try and interpret the Constitution.

The irony of the concept of the Constitution being a "living" document is that it was designed to be the steadfast reliable backbone of our country in "trying" times. It is a guarantee of protections of it's people not for the government. Yet every time there is some great cause, the government runs right over the Constitution to institute protections and laws it deems necessary. I don't care which party you want to talk about either, as they are both willing to trample on our rights.

Original intent was to have a document and basis of rights to keep our federal government in check NO MATTER WHAT THE CRISIS OF THE CURRENT TIME is. No matter how many shootings, school or otherwise happen, there is NO basis for gun control.

[Sieg]

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-QnFfLnd/0/O/i-QnFfLnd.jpg

[Z10ROD]

I think most are missing the point here although Joe and Potus asked congress to ban assault weapons and large clips as well as back ground checks for all sales his executive actions all deal with being able to inforce laws already on the books ( ATF ) SENATE CONFORMATION OF A DIRECTOR AND just make it more difficult for insane and felons to get gun's ???? what else could they do ?? not much. I think congress will do the background ck deal and that will be enough. without taking anyones rights that should have those rights ???? and as far as who has juristiction ???? its federal no question. nice try though:cheers:

[realcoray]

Original intent was to have a document and basis of rights to keep our federal government in check NO MATTER WHAT THE CRISIS OF THE CURRENT TIME is. No matter how many shootings, school or otherwise happen, there is NO basis for gun control.

So, felons should be able to have guns? The mentally ill? Not only that, but they should be able to have RPGs and automatic weapons right?

You can control guns without banning anything but pro gun rights people refuse to acknowledge that since they feel like if they give an inch someone would take a mile.

If the NRA would just accept background searches for all sales, chances are you could avoid a ban on anything but they won't and so they may end up with both.

[Sieg]

So, felons should be able to have guns? The mentally ill? Not only that, but they should be able to have RPGs and automatic weapons right?
Felons have guns and always will, habitual felons on the catch and release program thanks to over "correction facility" crowding.

The mentally have guns, thanks to the felons and careless family and friends. A good friend of mine Chris Kilcullen (motorcycle cop) was shot and killed not to long ago by an older female mental case during a traffic stop. Freak shot one round, in the arm pit above his body amour that hit him in the heart. 5 shot snub-nose revolver with .38 wadcutter ammunition. Not high cap, not semi-auto, not full auto, not the feared "cop killer" bullets. Target practice ammunition.

Not sure on the RPG's but the local pot growers in Lance County and adjacent county's are protecting their crops with full auto weapons. They don't abide by the current laws yet you believe new and improved ones will change that?

My 14 year old son is has mental issues and I'm a hell of a lot more concerned about our kitchen knives and baseball bats than firearms. If someone breaks into your place while you're sleeping are your weapons properly secured?

[GregWeld]

The entire argument about MORE LAWS are needed is so senseless...


What more law do you need than -- It's against the law to murder people.


Like a guy that is a murderer cares about gun laws? Or any other law for that matter.

[Sieg]

The entire argument about MORE LAWS are needed is so senseless...

What more law do you need than -- It's against the law to murder people.

Like a guy that is a murderer cares about gun laws? Or any other law for that matter.
My perception is that until the punishment is severe enough to get the criminals attention the laws are worthless.

Singapore's system is relatively effective from my limited research.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

My perception is that until the punishment is severe enough to get the criminals attention the laws are worthless.

Singapore's system is relatively effective from my limited research.

Again, criminals do not think like we do. They have no fear in punishment. Most are return criminals or from a criminal familly and know how the system works. They just know that they will do what it takes to get away with a crime.

I believe the only way to fix the problem is dealing with the root cause. Before they lead to criminal life style.

As far as the laws, they are there. They do not work or apply to criminals. They apply to purchasers. Car thieves don't go to dealerships or used car lots for cars. They steal cars.

[sniper]

So, felons should be able to have guns? The mentally ill? Not only that, but they should be able to have RPGs and automatic weapons right?
First of all you admit that there are different severity of felons. A guy who broke the clean air act by doing illegal state inspections is not the same as a guy who robbed a bank. But even so, by becoming a felon you surrender some of your rights. You have proven an inability to conform to a basic society without infringing on the rights of someone else. If you want to try and equate that type of person with others whom act fairly normal than go ahead.
Personally I could care less if a felon has a gun. Why is that my business? If they want a gun, they will get one illegally anyway. A background check isn't going to stop them.

A friend of mine is a felon. Does he not have the right to protect himself and his family?

You can control guns without banning anything but pro gun rights people refuse to acknowledge that since they feel like if they give an inch someone would take a mile.

"feel" Do you know who the POTUS will be in 50 years? Patriot act anyone?

[intocarss]

http://www.assaultweapon.info/

[GregWeld]

That's a very interesting and informative slide show. Thanks for posting it.

Of course -- no matter the actual FACTS.... the tree hugging anti gun folks will just argue that ALL GUNS should be taken away from everyone "since there is no need for anyone to have one". Ultimately we know that's the real goal of a large swath of America.

[intocarss]

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/2495/ny_democrat_pleads_with_republican_not_to_share_do cument_proposing_confiscation_of_guns

[out2kayak]

Hmm... Food for thought:

k3DKuN2ey80

:cheers:

[Shmoov69]

Naaaa..... I believe her this time, I'm sure she's telling the truth!!:guns:

[Tony_SS]

If the NRA would just accept background searches for all sales, chances are you could avoid a ban on anything but they won't and so they may end up with both.

Where do people get the idea that there are no background checks? When you buy a gun, the first thing you have to do is fill out a form and consent to a background check to the FBI.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Where do people get the idea that there are no background checks? When you buy a gun, the first thing you have to do is fill out a form and consent to a background check to the FBI.

not all states and I think they are talking long guns now. The one I don't like is restricting ammo count.

[Sieg]

The one I don't like is restricting ammo count.
How do they think they can accomplish controlling current ammunition stock-piles? Go back to tunnel-rat tactics used in Vietnam, or door to door property searches? :lostmarbles:

[Ketzer]

, or door to door property searches? :lostmarbles:

Start in Chicago, bang on all the doors you want. Let us know how that works out.... I can promise you there are some doors here in Tennessee that they will regret knocking on... I'm just sayin' :guns:


Jeff-

[Tony_SS]

not all states and I think they are talking long guns now. The one I don't like is restricting ammo count.

Who here lives in a state where they don't require a background check to buy a gun?

I've never heard of that. Here in MO, that is the protocol, even at a gun show, despite what you hear about those 'gun show loopholes'.

[Tony_SS]

The one I don't like is restricting ammo count.

Well in NYC, you can't buy a soda larger than how many ounces? :lmao:
brilliant.

[Sieg]

A video worth sharing:

Ooa98FHuaU0

[realcoray]

Who here lives in a state where they don't require a background check to buy a gun?

I've never heard of that. Here in MO, that is the protocol, even at a gun show, despite what you hear about those 'gun show loopholes'.

33 states have no requirement, and the other 17 have varying degrees of checks that fall into 3 buckets, background check, background check for handgun only and background check for a permit that allows you then to purchase guns, which is what MO has and what to me makes the most logical sense to me as not only could it close the loophole, it could actually provide some benefit for responsible gun owners, for example you could lower the waiting period, or really just not ban any guns or clips or anything.

[Sieg]

Reality is rules and background checks only work with law abiding individuals. Though they also lay a road map identifying landmines for non-law abiding individuals.

Those with a need that cannot pass the paperwork and background check procedures resort to alternative resources. Their wait time depends on their connections, local market inventory, and budget. Those connections can also be informants providing information on households that have guns that are easy burglary/robbery targets.

[GregWeld]

Reality is rules and background checks only work with law abiding individuals. Though they also lay a road map identifying landmines for non-law abiding individuals.

Those with a need that cannot pass the paperwork and background check procedures resort to alternative resources. Their wait time depends on their connections, local market inventory, and budget. Those connections can also be informants providing information on households that have guns that are easy burglary/robbery targets.



That is EXACTLY why mine are stored at all times unless being transported - in this - bolted to the floor - and the shed has a motion sensor that is silent. Note this is a BURGLARY and Fire safe. The door is half an inch of steel...


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_3158.jpg


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_3161.jpg

[realcoray]

Reality is rules and background checks only work with law abiding individuals. Though they also lay a road map identifying landmines for non-law abiding individuals.

Those with a need that cannot pass the paperwork and background check procedures resort to alternative resources. Their wait time depends on their connections, local market inventory, and budget. Those connections can also be informants providing information on households that have guns that are easy burglary/robbery targets.

Of course out of the 1.3 million people turned away from background checks already, some got guns through other means and would continue but basic economics would come into play in that getting one would be harder.

They could certainly still get one, but the investment would go up significantly, either in terms of actual $$, or in terms of risk to secure them and most likely both.

Many would still go for it, but a not insignificant percentage would either be unable or unwilling to try to get a gun and I'm willing to be inconvenienced slightly for that.

[Z10ROD]

so to get back on point I think we all agree its the CRAZIES that must be kept up with. its a no brainer our 2nd amendments rights are NOT at stake. its all the rest of them ??? warrantless wire taps. due process . why would we get all up in arms over back ground checks but let the government into our private lives ?? we have become a police state.:idea:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Who here lives in a state where they don't require a background check to buy a gun?

I've never heard of that. Here in MO, that is the protocol, even at a gun show, despite what you hear about those 'gun show loopholes'.

I know in Florida some jurisdictions do not require a back ground check.

all purchases are

California
Colorado
Connecticut
Illinois
New York
Oregon
Rhode Island

hand gun only states are
Hawaii
Maryland
New Jersey
Pennsylvania

You can walk through a gun show in Nevada and buy a gun without a back ground check.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

How do they think they can accomplish controlling current ammunition stock-piles? Go back to tunnel-rat tactics used in Vietnam, or door to door property searches? :lostmarbles:

by preventing us from buying more. Think I may buy an air soft rifle to use for target practice. LOL

[Sieg]

by preventing us from buying more. Think I may buy an air soft rifle to use for target practice. LOL
Lack of proper planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part. :mock: Still have that motor as trading stock? That strategy would exploit the faults in their system. :rules:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Lack of proper planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part. :mock: Still have that motor as trading stock? That strategy would exploit the faults in their system. :rules:

:sieg: im good....just shoot less....LIKE I HAVE TIME!!!! LOL

yeah, trade the engine for 5000 rounds of 5.56 LC M855 :thumbsup:


Ask greg if that extreme standing mat is for when he stares at himself in the mirror, admirering his collection or cause he keeps forgetting his combo. LOL

[Sieg]

:sieg: im good....just shoot less....LIKE I HAVE TIME!!!! LOL

yeah, trade the engine for 5000 rounds of 5.56 LC M855 :thumbsup:


Ask greg if that extreme standing mat is for when he stares at himself in the mirror, admirering his collection or cause he keeps forgetting his combo. LOL

Just out of curiosity M855 or M855A1? :popcorn2:

:headscratch: It could be a prayer mat.........for accuracy in time of need.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Just out of curiosity M855 or M855A1? :popcorn2:

:headscratch: It could be a prayer mat.........for accuracy in time of need.

"what else do you have in the warehouse?"

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Just out of curiosity M855 or M855A1? :popcorn2:

:headscratch: It could be a prayer mat.........for accuracy in time of need.

oh, green tip only, brown will clash with my ammo cases.

[Sieg]

"what else do you have in the warehouse?"I don't have a warehouse but there's a couple sources I could ask......just want to have the right part number! :D All my stuff is 52-55 grn V-Max.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I don't have a warehouse but there's a couple sources I could ask......just want to have the right part number! :D All my stuff is 52-55 grn V-Max.
Fiotcchi Hornady 55
haaaa, thats the good stuff that I hoard everytime I go to Cabelas. Last time I bought it was $33 box of 50. Now its $39 for 20.

.

BTW that was a quote from gone in 60.

[Tony_SS]

33 states have no requirement, and the other 17 have varying degrees of checks that fall into 3 buckets, background check, background check for handgun only and background check for a permit that allows you then to purchase guns, which is what MO has and what to me makes the most logical sense to me as not only could it close the loophole, it could actually provide some benefit for responsible gun owners, for example you could lower the waiting period, or really just not ban any guns or clips or anything.

CT had some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation, and yet, see what still happened? More laws do not stop crazy, and that proves my point.

Do you have an actual source where I can see for myself? Because no matter what state you buy in, if you buy from an FFL, that is a Federal license and they are required to run a background check.

Tell me about this 'no requirement' you're talking about.

[realcoray]

CT had some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation, and yet, see what still happened? More laws do not stop crazy, and that proves my point.

Do you have an actual source where I can see for myself? Because no matter what state you buy in, if you buy from an FFL, that is a Federal license and they are required to run a background check.

Tell me about this 'no requirement' you're talking about.

I was talking about gun shows and/or private sales. Federal law says in those situations, if you're not a gun dealer or generally engaged in the gun business that you simply can't sell to someone who you suspect cannot have the gun, which is pretty vague.

Unrelated to that but relevent to this thread:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/62yearold-with-gun-only-one-standing-between-natio,30984/

[Tony_SS]

I was talking about gun shows and/or private sales. Federal law says in those situations, if you're not a gun dealer or generally engaged in the gun business that you simply can't sell to someone who you suspect cannot have the gun, which is pretty vague.

Ok, but there are no 'gun show loopholes'. That is a political term like 'assault' rifle.

At a gun show, you purchase from a dealer the same way you would at their storefront. A background check is done. Now, a private sale, a check does not need to be done, its private. But there are laws against selling to a known felon, so its seller beware. This differs state to state and is legitimate.

Think about all the millions and millions of guns in the country. Gun ownership is skyrocketing and FBI statics tells us that violent crime rate has dropped almost 50% in the last 20 years. That is huge! We don't need more laws, or govt intervention. /soapbox.
:cheers:

[transam]

http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a431/ipadguy/273cc41659e764397be301a076bf7648.jpg

[NOPANTS68]

Now that's a classic image. lol

[Ketzer]

I have recieved email responses from my senator, congressman, representative here in Tennessee, all in support of not banning or changing current laws. (at least that is the form letter in response to me saying I will not vote for your a$$ if you go along...). I've voted on a half dozen online polls about it (Fox, USA, etc.) and they all show results in the 75-95% against banning or adding new laws. Yet Washington is saying there is "strong" support for these measures to be taken... support from WHOM?!? The police have shown they don't support it. Folks in the military don't support it. Only female democrats and the british seem to want it...


Jeff-

[parsonsj]

Washington is saying there is "strong" support for these measures to be taken... support from WHOM?!? Here's a link to CNN polling data:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/16/cnntime-poll-slight-dip-in-support-for-gun-control-measures-in-last-month/?iref=allsearch

[Bucketlist2012]

814 people polled ? That CNN report doesn't reflect that many people and the % is actually decreasing in support of Gun control

[Tony_SS]

Yet Washington is saying there is "strong" support for these measures to be taken... support from WHOM?!?

From CNN polls of course!

Politicians using CNN data to represent all of America's opinion.. sounds objective to me! not.

[transam]

Statistics are meaningless without knowing the method. You can asked loaded questions and easily sway people

Assault weapons were used to murder children,should assault weapons be banned? Most people will say ok makes sense yes


Assault weapons seldom are used to commit mass murders while most murders are commited using a handgun,do you feel assault weapons should be banned? People will be more likely to say no.

In the end most people dont really have a clue on whats happening in the world they live in so they will answer questions based on assumptions and media exposure. I seldom give much weight to surveys.

[intocarss]

qGDqFMP7sYQ

[realcoray]

Ok, but there are no 'gun show loopholes'. That is a political term like 'assault' rifle.

At a gun show, you purchase from a dealer the same way you would at their storefront. A background check is done. Now, a private sale, a check does not need to be done, its private. But there are laws against selling to a known felon, so its seller beware. This differs state to state and is legitimate.


It may vary state to state, but not everyone selling at gun shows is a dealer. If I have guns I want to sell I can get a stall and sell them just the same as if I'm going to a car swap meet.

[Spiffav8]

In the end most people dont really have a clue on whats happening in the world they live in so they will answer questions based on assumptions and media exposure. I seldom give much weight to surveys.

:clap:

Those people are called Sheep and we all know sheep are clueless. Even when it comes to their own protection they have no idea.

[Tony_SS]

It may vary state to state, but not everyone selling at gun shows is a dealer. If I have guns I want to sell I can get a stall and sell them just the same as if I'm going to a car swap meet.

I realize that. Outlawing or even trying to regulate private gun sales will not stop criminals from getting guns.

Drugs are outlawed and users still have no problem getting them.

[parsonsj]

I seldom give much weight to surveys.So we ignore the Fox and USA Today and online surveys as well?

[camcojb]

It may vary state to state, but not everyone selling at gun shows is a dealer. If I have guns I want to sell I can get a stall and sell them just the same as if I'm going to a car swap meet.
there is no "gun show loophole". The law at a gun show is the same as outside a gun show. That's just a phrase used to misrepresent the truth. Unfortunately there are many people who truly believe that if you're at a gun show that it's a free for all, and anyone can buy a gun there from anyone without any background checks. They think that one arena has a different set or laws, which is a lie.

Yes, personal transactions can happen without background checks, same as they can on Craigslist, at your house, etc. It is not a different set of laws for gun shows, it's the same laws. Any dealer must do a background check, private sales (depending on the state) do not. Same as two blocks away from the gun show.

If you want to eliminate this "loophole" then quit calling it a gun show loophole; call it a private sale loophole, and non dealer loophole, or whatever.

[camcojb]

So we ignore the Fox and USA Today and online surveys as well?
Your poll shows dropping support for a gun ban. Is that what you were trying to show?

[Tony_SS]

So we ignore the Fox and USA Today and online surveys as well?

Should Congress create laws based on surveys?

[nicks67ca]

CT is now blindly pushing ahead.

http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/politics/liability-insurance-for-gun-owners#.UQBT8yex-n8

While I deep down believe we must do more to prevent these things from happening (I am unsure what that is) this type legislation does no good.

[Tony_SS]

CT is now blindly pushing ahead.

http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/politics/liability-insurance-for-gun-owners#.UQBT8yex-n8

While I deep down believe we must do more to prevent these things from happening (I am unsure what that is) this type legislation does no good.

Did I read that right... a 50% tax on ammunition? Wow.

[nicks67ca]

It gets better...... I'm okay with background checks but thats about it.

http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Lawmakers-take-first-shot-at-gun-control-4214986.php

The group wants:
all rifles that fit the definition of assault weapons to be surrendered to police, removed from the state or destroyed.
a ban on ammunition magazines that hold more than seven bullets.
permits and background checks prior to all gun sales in the state, not just pistol sales.
a limit on handgun sales of one per month.

[transam]

So we ignore the Fox and USA Today and online surveys as well?

I dont watch fox news nor do i listen to rush limbaugh, all surveys hould be taken with a grain of salt,doesnt matter what your position is on a subject.

[parsonsj]

Your poll shows dropping support for a gun ban. Is that what you were trying to show?My poll? :)

Jeff said that all the polls with which he was familiar (he cited USA, Fox News, and online polls) didn't support additional gun control legislation, and wondered what he was missing (just paraphrasing). Where, he wondered, did this notion come from that Americans wanted more gun control?

My post attempted to point out that CNN (and others if anybody really wants to look) had some recent polling data that showed a majority of Americans do indeed want some form of gun control legislation.

I make no claims other than that.

[Spiffav8]

I have to laugh and shake my head in disbelief at the number of people who bite on the media's B.S. They do nothing but stir emotion and play on the results. Anyone who thinks the media is presenting anything in it's full truth and then forming an opinion based on that info is a moron.

People need to do their own research, educate on facts and make informed decisions. Seriously....read a book.

[Bucketlist2012]

My poll? :)

Jeff said that all the polls with which he was familiar (he cited USA, Fox News, and online polls) didn't support additional gun control legislation, and wondered what he was missing (just paraphrasing). Where, he wondered, did this notion come from that Americans wanted more gun control?

My post attempted to point out that CNN (and others if anybody really wants to look) had some recent polling data that showed a majority of Americans do indeed want some form of gun control legislation.

I make no claims other than that.

814 people were polled....A majority of Americans ? Last time I checked we had 300 million plus... So no, a majority of Americans have not been polled...

[camcojb]

My poll? :)

Jeff said that all the polls with which he was familiar (he cited USA, Fox News, and online polls) didn't support additional gun control legislation, and wondered what he was missing (just paraphrasing). Where, he wondered, did this notion come from that Americans wanted more gun control?

My post attempted to point out that CNN (and others if anybody really wants to look) had some recent polling data that showed a majority of Americans do indeed want some form of gun control legislation.

I make no claims other than that.
Your poll because you posted it. :lol: I think there's a majority that wouldn't object to background checks on all sales, private or dealer. So in that case, a majority probably would want some revisions. But I've never seen a large poll showing the majority of Americans want gun restrictions or banning, except for criminals.

[Ketzer]

I don't think any media outlet can be fully trusted.

How do we really figure out if we are being duped by media, Washington, NRA, etc.... I know what feels right in mind. I've read and agree with alot of the opinions expressed here. I am not completely closed off to opposing views, but I know what the world out there is like. It is not warm and fuzzy. You cannot restrict and put more laws on the lawful and expect to stop the unlawful.

Jeff-

[intocarss]

FeTCkoXslsE

[Spiffav8]

I don't think any media outlet can be fully trusted.

How do we really figure out if we are being duped by media, Washington, NRA, etc.... I know what feels right in mind. I've read and agree with alot of the opinions expressed here. I am not completely closed off to opposing views, but I know what the world out there is like. It is not warm and fuzzy. You cannot restrict and put more laws on the lawful and expect to stop the unlawful.

Jeff-

Jeff...I want to hang out with you. :lol:

[Sieg]

I don't think any media outlet can be fully trusted.

How do we really figure out if we are being duped by media, Washington, NRA, etc.... I know what feels right in mind. I've read and agree with alot of the opinions expressed here. I am not completely closed off to opposing views, but I know what the world out there is like. It is not warm and fuzzy. You cannot restrict and put more laws on the lawful and expect to stop the unlawful.

Jeff-

Jeff...I want to hang out with you. :lol:

I'll buy the beverages :thumbsup:

[parsonsj]

Jody, that's my guess too: that a more universal background check for gun sales is instituted, along with better cooperation from the states.

I hope we end up with an ATF that has a commissioner and renewed vigor to pursue criminal gun sales and the like.

[Ketzer]

Jeff...I want to hang out with you. :lol:

I'll buy the beverages :thumbsup:

I'll spring for the snacks! :thumbsup:

Jeff-

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I'll buy the beverages :thumbsup:

I'll spring for the snacks! :thumbsup:

Jeff-

I got dibs on the brass. :hello:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I have to laugh and shake my head in disbelief at the number of people who bite on the media's B.S. They do nothing but stir emotion and play on the results. Anyone who thinks the media is presenting anything in it's full truth and then forming an opinion based on that info is a moron.

People need to do their own research, educate on facts and make informed decisions. Seriously....read a book.

books take too long....editing, rewrite and then publish. I think some need to just plain go outside and get cultured. :confused59:

[Tony_SS]

I hope we end up with an ATF that has a commissioner and renewed vigor to pursue criminal gun sales and the like.

Lanza didn't buy any guns. He stole them.

In he midst of all this gun control hysteria, people are proposing laws that would not have even prevented this tragedy.

[parsonsj]

In he midst of all this gun control hysteria, people are proposing laws that would not have even prevented this tragedy.I wasn't proposing any laws; I was suggesting we give our main agency charged with investigating criminal gun behavior more tools to do their job.

Isn't the main argument many make that making new laws won't affect criminal behavior? Why wouldn't we welcome better crime-fighting efforts targeted at criminals with illegal guns?

As far as Lanza goes, his killing spree brought a spotlight on gun law enforcement, and our country has been found wanting: there are millions of guns obtained from illegal activity and in criminal hands. Let's enforce our existing laws, and give the ATF what it needs.

[camcojb]

I wasn't proposing any laws; I was suggesting we give our main agency charged with investigating criminal gun behavior more tools to do their job.

Isn't the main argument many make that making new laws won't affect criminal behavior? Why wouldn't we welcome better crime-fighting efforts targeted at criminals with illegal guns?

As far as Lanza goes, his killing spree brought a spotlight on gun law enforcement, and our country has been found wanting: there are millions of guns obtained from illegal activity and in criminal hands. Let's enforce our existing laws, and give the ATF what it needs.
I agree. That's why the latest reduced capacity magazine laws make no sense. They do not affect criminals, they only handicap legal owners using a gun in self-defense.

[Ketzer]

I agree. That's why the latest reduced capacity magazine laws make no sense. They do not affect criminals, they only handicap legal owners using a gun in self-defense.

And then there's the argument of why you need 30 rounds to "defend" yourself... spoken by folks who've never seen a young entrepenuer with three 9mm slugs in him, run a half mile to his auntie's house and hide in the closet. "Yeah, dispatch... his belly hurts 'cause it's got these three new orifices oozing blood..."



Jeff-

[Tony_SS]

I wasn't proposing any laws; I was suggesting we give our main agency charged with investigating criminal gun behavior more tools to do their job.

Isn't the main argument many make that making new laws won't affect criminal behavior? Why wouldn't we welcome better crime-fighting efforts targeted at criminals with illegal guns?

As far as Lanza goes, his killing spree brought a spotlight on gun law enforcement, and our country has been found wanting: there are millions of guns obtained from illegal activity and in criminal hands. Let's enforce our existing laws, and give the ATF what it needs.

What more is the ATF supposed to do? How could they have stopped Lanza? After reading reports of Fast and Furious, it sounds like they have plenty of 'tools'.

All I'm hearing from central planners and their proponents are unrelated, reactionary solutions in search of a problem, that have no effect whatsoever on criminals, but law abiding citizens. And certainly have little to nothing to do with the Newton tragedy.

[intocarss]

i05pvOE5ZNM

[Ketzer]

How many "rounds" in a pack of cigarettes? but big tobacco doesn't target children or isn't involved in law making...:rolleyes:

How many "rounds" in a 12 pack? but there aren't any kids dying from DUIs or anyone from capitol hill blowing hot on a breathalyzer... :rolleyes:

If we could just save one child... we would gladly throw away the whole constitution....



Jeff-

[Shmoov69]

FeTCkoXslsE


LMAO!!! THAT IS AWESOME!!!!:lmao:

[GregWeld]

^^^^^^^ totally agree!!


Wild Bill for President!!:D

[Sieg]

Just got home from a concealed weapons permit class for UT, longtime friend was the instructor and 28 vet of local law enforcement. He is also the PIO (Public Information Officer) so he is the front line with the media.

His father was an HK dealer selling to law enforcement agencies on the west coast and still is a Class III dealer operating a indoor range and gun store.

He made a very interesting point in the class regarding the assault weapons and magazine capacity issues: "Roughly 80% of the 1000 firearms felonies committed each day in the US are committed by felons in possession of firearms. MAKE the crime punishable by life imprisonment and in two years you will have removed a substantial number of illegal weapons and criminals from society. Why go after a weapon category that is responsible for 1% of the felonies committed in the US.
Word travels fast in the underground and gang banger world and they'll learn to use alternative weapons to firearms putting them at a disadvantage to the law abiding armed citizen."

[Vince@Meanstreets]

problem is the revolving door justice system here. Jails are full and people are getting tired of housing them. Much like the 3 strikes punishment, it makes the felons much more dangerous.
Congrats on the class. It puts a different perspective on owning doesn't it?

Even if you are not in CA its worth the look and support the cause. http://calguns.net/

[Tony_SS]

x10 on Wild Bill... that is a great clip. :lol:

He made a very interesting point in the class regarding the assault weapons and magazine capacity issues: "Roughly 80% of the 1000 firearms felonies committed each day in the US are committed by felons in possession of firearms. MAKE the crime punishable by life imprisonment and in two years you will have removed a substantial number of illegal weapons and criminals from society. Why go after a weapon category that is responsible for 1% of the felonies committed in the US.
Word travels fast in the underground and gang banger world and they'll learn to use alternative weapons to firearms putting them at a disadvantage to the law abiding armed citizen."

That's the thing with criminals, deterrents really don't work. A thief doesn't rob a bank thinking he's going to get caught.

Again, all of the talk is about "keeping guns out of the hands of criminals". Was Adam Lanza a felon? Did he have a criminal history?

Mixed in all the hysteria we have shifted off course. The politicians and media have moved the goal posts. The FBI's own stats show us that violent gun is down 49% in 20 years, and that more people kill with hammers and other objects than guns.

The real issue is that in all these mass shootings, the kids were on psychotropic prescription drugs.

Of course Fienstein wont mention that. She'll just put on some theatrical display of fear and emotion. Not to mention, her saying that the cross lobby is stronger than the gun lobby? Classic divide and conquer. What a witch.

[Bryan O]

Sorry if already posted. I haven't kept up with the thread entirely and I haven't checked the accuracy of the claim.

From the World Health Organization:

The latest Murder Statistics for the world:

Murders per 100,000 citizens

Honduras 91.6

El Salvador 69.2

Cote d'lvoire 56.9 52.2

Venezuela 45.1

Belize 41.4

US Virgin Islands 39.2

Guatemala 38.5

Saint Kits and Nevis 38.2

Zambia 38.0

Uganda 36.3

Malawi 36.0

Lesotho 35.2

Trinidad and Tobago 35.2

Colombia 33.4

South Africa 31.8

Congo 30.8

Central African Republic 29.3

Bahamas 27.4

Puerto Rico 26.2

Saint Lucia 25.2

Dominican Republic 25.0

Tanzania 24.5

Sudan 24.2

Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9

Ethiopia 22.5

Guinea 22.5

Dominica 22.1

Burundi 21.7

Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7

Panama 21.6

Brazil 21.0

Equatorial Guinea 20.7

Guinea-Bissau 20.2

Kenya 20.1

Kyrgyzstan 20.1

Cameroon 19.7

Montserrat 19.7

Greenland 19.2

Angola 19.0

Guyana 18.6

Burkina Faso 18.0

Eritrea 17.8

Namibia 17.2

Rwanda 17.1

Mexico 16.9

Chad 15.8

Ghana 15.7

Ecuador 15.2

North Korea 15.2

Benin 15.1

Sierra Leone 14.9

Mauritania 14.7

Botswana 14.5

Zimbabwe 14.3

Gabon 13.8

Nicaragua 13.6

French Guiana 13.3

Papua New Guinea 13.0

Swaziland 12.9

Bermuda 12.3

Comoros 12.2

Nigeria 12.2

Cape Verde 11.6

Grenada 11.5

Paraguay 11.5

Barbados 11.3

Togo 10.9

Gambia 10.8

Peru 10.8

Myanmar 10.2

Russia 10.2

Liberia 10.1

Costa Rica 10.0

Nauru 9.8

Bolivia 8.9

Mozambique 8.8

Kazakhstan 8.8

Senegal 8.7

Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7

Mongolia 8.7

British Virgin Islands 8.6

Cayman Islands 8.4

Seychelles 8.3

Madagascar 8.1

Indonesia 8.1

Mali 8.0

Pakistan 7.8

Moldova 7.5

Kiribati 7.3

Guadeloupe 7.0

Haiti 6.9

Timor-Leste 6.9

Anguilla 6.8

Antigua and Barbuda 6.8

Lithuania 6.6

Uruguay 5.9

Philippines 5.4

Ukraine 5.2

Estonia 5.2

Cuba 5.0

Belarus 4.9

Thailand 4.8

Suriname 4.6

Laos 4.6

Georgia 4.3

Martinique 4.2

The United States = 4.2

ALL the countries above America have 100% gun bans

In God We Trust!

[Sieg]

problem is the revolving door justice system here. Jails are full and people are getting tired of housing them. Much like the 3 strikes punishment, it makes the felons much more dangerous.
Congrats on the class. It puts a different perspective on owning doesn't it?
Well, step it up to the death penalty until the over-crowding is neutralized. :unibrow:

Regarding the CHL I've had one in Oregon since '84, I did this mainly as a social networking event and even though there's overlap in states honoring the permit, holding OR & UT permits I have carry rights in the majority of states. Here's the data: http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USReciprocity.pdf

[parsonsj]

From the World Health Organization:

The latest Murder Statistics for the world:

Murders per 100,000 citizens
...
...I suppose it is something that the US murder rate is better than nearly all of the 3rd world countries on Earth. I wonder if you'd mind publishing the rest of the list?

[GregWeld]

I suppose it is something that the US murder rate is better than nearly all of the 3rd world countries on Earth. I wonder if you'd mind publishing the rest of the list?



This question reminded me....

How's the worlds fastest... best cornering... drag car build coming along??

[Tony_SS]

In a down economy, this is impressive.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/may/crimes_052311/crime_052311

Britain has one of the highest violent crimes rates - higher than the US and South Africa, along with a total gun ban.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

France is more violent than the US. LMAO
The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents,

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/07/02/article-1196941-05900DF7000005DC-677_468x636.jpg

Tell me how we need more gun control again????

[parsonsj]

How's the worlds fastest... best cornering... drag car build coming along??The project is dead.

Frank and I have completed our divorce on that, and have reached an amicable settlement. You'd need to ask Frank for any further information.

[camcojb]

The project is dead.

Frank and I have completed our divorce on that, and have reached an amicable settlement. You'd need to ask Frank for any further information.
that's too bad John. I wondered how it was going with the other issues.

[parsonsj]

Thanks Jody. I'm glad to have it settled, and I'm moving on, mostly working to build the joint venture John Ulaszek and I are working on -- Fuel Vents, FabBosses, and more.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

x10 on Wild Bill... that is a great clip. :lol:



That's the thing with criminals, deterrents really don't work. A thief doesn't rob a bank thinking he's going to get caught.

Again, all of the talk is about "keeping guns out of the hands of criminals". Was Adam Lanza a felon? Did he have a criminal history?

Mixed in all the hysteria we have shifted off course. The politicians and media have moved the goal posts. The FBI's own stats show us that violent gun is down 49% in 20 years, and that more people kill with hammers and other objects than guns.

The real issue is that in all these mass shootings, the kids were on psychotropic prescription drugs.

Of course Fienstein wont mention that. She'll just put on some theatrical display of fear and emotion. Not to mention, her saying that the cross lobby is stronger than the gun lobby? Classic divide and conquer. What a witch.

wait, are you saying the resposibility is with the prescription drug lobby? Next to oil that is a strong opponent.

[Tony_SS]

wait, are you saying the resposibility is with the prescription drug lobby? Next to oil that is a strong opponent.

No, the responsibility falls on the parents and other professionals to be educated about those products.

The irony of a "drug free school zone" is that alot of these teachers and kids are on Ritalin, Prozac, Zoloft, etc. Not judging anyone who takes that stuff, but there are risks associated, especially with children and young adults.

[Flash68]

The project is dead.

Frank and I have completed our divorce on that, and have reached an amicable settlement. You'd need to ask Frank for any further information.

Bummer to read that. That was a very interesting project.

[Shmoov69]

The project is dead.

Frank and I have completed our divorce on that, and have reached an amicable settlement. You'd need to ask Frank for any further information.

I hadn't been keeping up with the drama, but I figured there was some with all the other issues he was having. I hate to hear that JP cause I was looking forward to seeing that car perform.

[Sieg]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/25923_199727433499029_1298518191_n.png

:sieg:

[Sieg]

Again.........logic applied.

WQ3hVbWd4oU

Do they feel like self-imploding when they watch fact based informantion or do they hit the button on a morphine style pump filled with denialium?

[Sieg]

If you haven't seen this you should. If you have it's worth watching again. This lady is a hero for that testimony IMO.

6sEYGcXSmpQ

[Shmoov69]

First, Wild Bill is the man!! LOL!!

Second, what is the story on that woman's testimony? Like when and where and what was the outcome?

On another note, I watched Batman tonight and saw quite a few parallels in Gotham City!! Not necessarily about guns, but more about government and the such. :confused59:

[Sieg]

Second, what is the story on that woman's testimony? Like when and where and what was the outcome?
Here's the woman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanna_Hupp

[Sieg]

Should we be concerned? Do your own research and make your own opinions based on information in this video.

kzT6X3_Bg9o

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I would not put too much into the Litmus testing in a military reference. They ask you some f't up things to see where you are mentally and your moral standing not necessarily directive they want you to act out. A position would be determined by which direction your moral compass is in.

This seems like a media ploy.

If you are looking for warning signs they are already there. It all starts with dividing the country then what follows is registration.

The pros seem to have a game plan. The key is not to give any ideas early on.

[parsonsj]

Do your own research and make your own opinions based on information in this video.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/citizens.asp

[parsonsj]

I hate to hear that JP cause I was looking forward to seeing that car perform.Thanks Jimmy. Me too.

[Flash68]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/25923_199727433499029_1298518191_n.png

:sieg:

Yeah.... Don't do as I DO.... Just do as I SAY. :rolleyes:

[Sieg]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/citizens.asp

"Probably false" I don't see that response on Snopes too often.

It's difficult to filter through all the litter flying around in the media as we know in this day and age. In my lifetime I've never seen a president as detached from the Constitution as this one. His agenda for the country is transparent at best. Those issues combined with the people he's appointed and associates with are "probably" the source of my concern and distrust. What he preaches compared what he accepts do not mesh........IMO

[Tony_SS]

"Probably false" I don't see that response on Snopes too often.

Lol, yeah, I like the "Probably" part. Snopes is left leaning biased outlet like other any media organization. They are not always some conclusive source of truth.

This is worth a look.

DHS buys 7000 full-auto assault rifles, calls them 'personal defense weapons'
http://www.naturalnews.com/038844_DHS_assault_weapons_documents.html

So the DHS bids to buy FULL auto rifes, they are called "personal defense". Yet the WH wants to ban all SEMI auto rifles, media called them "assault weapons"

That is some Grade A Bovine excrement right there.

[Ketzer]

6sEYGcXSmpQ


Jeff-

[Sieg]

Lol, yeah, I like the "Probably" part. Snopes is left leaning biased outlet like other any media organization. They are not always some conclusive source of truth.

This is worth a look.

DHS buys 7000 full-auto assault rifles, calls them 'personal defense weapons'
http://www.naturalnews.com/038844_DHS_assault_weapons_documents.html

So the DHS bids to buy FULL auto rifes, they are called "personal defense". Yet the WH wants to ban all SEMI auto rifles, media called them "assault weapons"

That is some Grade A Bovine excrement right there.
Interesting info. When the DHS uses the term "Personal Defense Weapon" who is the threat to their person? The gradual paradigm shift in the bureaucratic mindset that I've observed over the years is our (public employee) safety first then the public...........I'd be more at ease if they displayed the mindset of my dogs.

[sniper]

Did anyone see Obama said that he shoots skeet? Why do people who hate guns (and that's fine) always try to make themselves appear to like them? That man has probably never held a gun let alone went skeet shooting.

I would not put too much into the Litmus testing in a military reference. They ask you some f't up things to see where you are mentally and your moral standing not necessarily directive they want you to act out. A position would be determined by which direction your moral compass is in.


We were talking about this the other day. If **** ever hit the fan would a president (even 50 years from now) give the order to protect the country by killing it's citizens.

We already have examples that federal employees will attack us. Waco anyone? But think about what happens after a natural disaster. The Guard is brought in to keep Americans away from their homes? Now they may deem it unsafe but they will keep you out. How do they do this? By force, they have the guns and the threat of detainment.

The Egyption army is killing civilians. Those are not outsiders in their Army. We don't know what the next 50 or 100 years will look like and who will be leading this country.

[Vegas69]

Dear Mr. Akes:

Thank you for taking the time to contact me. I appreciate hearing from you, and I am grateful that I have an opportunity to hear your views in the wake of this terrible tragedy.

I share your concerns about the recent tragedy in Newtown, Connecticut. My heart goes out to all those affected, especially the families that lost loved ones and the students and faculty of Sandy Hook Elementary who witnessed such unspeakable violence. No words of condolence could possibly ease the pain of families who lost cherished children; however, I hope it is some small comfort that the nation mourns with them, and we stand with them as they overcome the suffering and begin the healing process.

As part of the healing process, we need to accept the reality that we are not doing enough to protect our citizens. In the coming weeks, Congress and the White House will engage in a meaningful conversation and thoughtful debate about how to change our laws and our culture that allows violence to grow. We need to examine what can be done to prevent more tragedies like the ones that happened this year in Newtown, Connecticut, Aurora, Colorado, Oak Creek, Wisconsin, and Portland, Oregon. We have no greater responsibility than keeping our children safe, and every idea should be on the table as we discuss how to best protect our children. We can honor the memory of those who were killed in Newtown by acting to ensure that our nation is protected against such horrific tragedies in the future. Please be assured of my commitment toward that end.

Again, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with me. I look forward to hearing from you in the future.
My best wishes to you.

Sincerely,
HARRY REID
United States Senator


Dear Mr. Akes:



Thank you for taking the time to write to the Governor's office regarding your opinion on [access to guns; mental health services; school safety]. As Governor, I truly appreciate your correspondence as it allows me to look for better ways to serve you and the other citizens of the great State of Nevada.



The most recent tragedy in Newtown, Connecticut has brought a new focus and increased attention to many issues surrounding gun control, access to mental health services, and school safety. Our country has suffered through too many of these types of heinous crimes and unfortunately, no one can point to any single solution, which if enacted, would totally prevent such violence. As we move toward a broader public discussion on meaningful public policy which will curb or end this violence, we must consult subject matter experts on mental health, school and gun safety and explore all options, while continuing to protect Second Amendment rights and individual freedoms. I appreciate your suggestions and I will keep them in mind as we move forward to preserve the safety of our state.



Thank you again for contacting my office. I welcome information from my constituents and I truly value your input.





Best regards,




Brian Sandoval
Governor

[Ketzer]

Todd,
Same sort of basic form replies I got here in Tennessee. Sad, but what matters is that we did let them know our views, and I will be watching and remembering come election time....


Jeff-

[nicks67ca]

http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/politics/hearings-continue-for-school-shooting-task-force_66794003?ref=scroller&categoryId=10001&status=true

This man has some serious strength. He lost his son last month and now is voicing a rational option to just enforcing the laws we have, and not calling for more. The video only covers part of his testimony.

"Mattioli said he believes in "simple, few gun laws" and that "we have more than enough on the books." But he said they're not being enforced properly.

Mattioli received a standing ovation."

[intocarss]

http://news.yahoo.com/missile-launcher-shows-seattle-gun-buyback-174331546.html

[Sieg]

http://news.yahoo.com/missile-launcher-shows-seattle-gun-buyback-174331546.html

Wonder how the Boeing test pilots feel about that one?