Investing 102

[bdahlg68]

RL looks great! You may want to take a look at a company called Buckle (BKE) instead of GES. BKE offers a lower yield but much better total returns.

BKE- 1/3/5 Total Return = 22%/165%/165%
Div yield = 1.9%

GES- 1/3/5 Total Return = <29.6%>/116%/<9.7%>
Div yield = 2.7%

Buckle has been around for many years. They own clothing brands such as: 7 for all mankind, Affliction, Alpinestar, Billabong, BCBG, Diesel, Dr. Martens, Fossil, Fox, Hurley, K-Swiss, Kenneth Cole, Lacoste, Lucky Brands, O'Neil, Puma, Quicksilver, True Religion and Volcom just to name a few.

As far as I know, BKE doesn't own those companies - they just retail those brands along side their own goods....

[pw2006]

As far as I know, BKE doesn't own those companies - they just retail those brands along side their own goods....

You are correct, I should have stated they retail/market those brands. :)

[GregWeld]

I would take down that post lest someone else come along and read it and be mis-informed....

[bdahlg68]

btw - love this thread! :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

btw - love this thread! :thumbsup:

Thanks! Me too!

Good catch on the BKE post.... we don't want people going all over the place and buying stuff based on erroneous info!

I've been working on the Camaro all day so didn't do any research personally on that "name" --- and had not heard of it before.

:thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

You guys do the math on my EMC holdings?? :D Paid for the Bubbletop today.

EEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA


Better lucky than smart has always been my motto! :lol: :woot:

[96z28ss]

well aint that a bitch!

[James OLC]

You guys do the math on my EMC holdings?? :D Paid for the Bubbletop today.

EEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA


Better lucky than smart has always been my motto! :lol: :woot:

yeah... and apple paid for the next one - not a bad tuesday. (I know - they're only up 10% overnight but with that cash on hand and that cash flow it wouldn't surprise me to see a div and a special div in the next 6 months). And you still have the upside that a div would give if and when they do announce it. I hate to buy at a peak but I might have to tomorrow. We had a nice bump today on a positive PR in an otherwise down market but it's a lot of hard work to get the message out.

[96z28ss]

not sure apple will ever pay a div. Ever since Steve took the company over they haven't made any donations to any charity. A company of that size and with that much wealth no Philanthropy.

[James OLC]

I guess I don't understand how a dividend relates to charity...

[96z28ss]

I guess I don't understand how a dividend relates to charity...

They aren't sharing the money. So what makes you think they are going to share profits with stock holder now? They have been cash wealthy for years.
I could be wrong but I wouldn't buy into it now in the hopes they are going to pay a div someday.

[GregWeld]

not sure apple will ever pay a div. Ever since Steve took the company over they haven't made any donations to any charity. A company of that size and with that much wealth no Philanthropy.

I agree with you Bob --- WTF they only have almost 100 BILLION dollars in cash... That money belongs to the shareholders... and even a billion given away wouldn't hurt anything.

However... I've been very very happy with the money they've made me AND their products. So I guess I shouldn't complain.

[pw2006]

Something to consider while you are researching investments, is to listen to the company's earnings call. These qtrly conference calls can give you an idea into how the management of a company thinks, may give you a read on what the company expects in the coming qtr (sometimes year), and then there is typically a Q&A session with major shareholders and analyst. They are usually about an hour long and worth it when considering an investment. Most companies have an investor section on their website where you can listen to a playback of the earnings call, review the company's press releases and also take a look at the SEC filings.

Since you guys brought up Apple, here is the link:
www.apple.com/investor

Click on the audio webcast to listen to today's conference call. :cheers:

[GregWeld]

This got me to laughing -- and not at you -- but just when I thought about it with regards to myself.... I've been doing investing since the mid 70's - I've been retired for 21 years (which means I have a LOT of time) and I've NEVER listened to an earnings call yet.

Here's the reason for that.... And again - this is only as it relates to Investing 102. By the time you've heard the earnings call - the cat is already out of the bag - good or bad. When you are really INVESTED or you're about to INVEST - you have plenty of time to gather information and even better - you can get a quick synposis of what they did, and what they're saying going forward, on about 10 gazillion financial websites.

I was using "earnings season" more as a "okay NEWBS -- pay attention this week and next and see how this can affect the market in general"... rather than a drill down on every nuance of a particular companies performance. I was using this "heads up" more like a building block... To build on the other things - good chart and dividend and blah blah blah... So it's like - now lets add some terms you hear and what they mean to the market.

A bunch of negative earnings reports and the market can turn south (general trend) until we start to hear "better" news --- a bunch of the biggies reporting good news and the market can be upbeat. But for our purposes I don't think we need to be trying to find reasons to buy or sell because if you start doing that - you'll lose money. You'll never get it right. You might once or twice - but in general you won't. Leave that to the "traders".

I have two friends that are real life traders - live in NYC and work for a couple of the big houses. They trade zillions of shares minute by minute. That's their job - and they're looking for PENNIES per share. They watch the market minute by minute and only trade in 4 or 5 names. They're looking for the trend in the stock by the HOUR. They don't care how the market is moving they only care that the market IS moving and they place their bets accordingly. They'll trade 20,000 shares 10 times in an hour on one company if they can make a nickel per share. They eat Prilosec for lunch.

[Bucketlist2012]

This got me to laughing -- and not at you -- but just when I thought about it with regards to myself.... I've been doing investing since the mid 70's - I've been retired for 21 years (which means I have a LOT of time) and I've NEVER listened to an earnings call yet.

Here's the reason for that.... And again - this is only as it relates to Investing 102. By the time you've heard the earnings call - the cat is already out of the bag - good or bad. When you are really INVESTED or you're about to INVEST - you have plenty of time to gather information and even better - you can get a quick synposis of what they did, and what they're saying going forward, on about 10 gazillion financial websites.

I was using "earnings season" more as a "okay NEWBS -- pay attention this week and next and see how this can affect the market in general"... rather than a drill down on every nuance of a particular companies performance. I was using this "heads up" more like a building block... To build on the other things - good chart and dividend and blah blah blah... So it's like - now lets add some terms you hear and what they mean to the market.

A bunch of negative earnings reports and the market can turn south (general trend) until we start to hear "better" news --- a bunch of the biggies reporting good news and the market can be upbeat. But for our purposes I don't think we need to be trying to find reasons to buy or sell because if you start doing that - you'll lose money. You'll never get it right. You might once or twice - but in general you won't. Leave that to the "traders".

I have two friends that are real life traders - live in NYC and work for a couple of the big houses. They trade zillions of shares minute by minute. That's their job - and they're looking for PENNIES per share. They watch the market minute by minute and only trade in 4 or 5 names. They're looking for the trend in the stock by the HOUR. They don't care how the market is moving they only care that the market IS moving and they place their bets accordingly. They'll trade 20,000 shares 10 times in an hour on one company if they can make a nickel per share. They eat Prilosec for lunch.

Great Points.. That is why I come to this thread to Learn.:cheers: :thumbsup:

So, I only started to pay attention to my money in early 2001, mainly because I did not have any...Why ?? Well I answered that question , and Started Saving what I earned.

As usual, Greg is on the money because I tried the Timing thing as far as getting in, and getting out, and that did not work out so well.

They are so far ahead of you, it is HFT, how do you beat that ?

Greg, your motto is you would rather be Lucky than smart ? Dude, you are first, Smart, and second, Luck is the meeting of preparation, and opportunity...Your Luck is your Smarts...

I am learning to be smart.. Lucky ??? Oh man, in 2006 I saw the writing on the wall, and in 2008, i could not believe that this opportunity that I was told, if it happens, Buy, Buy, Buy..

So we sold an expensive Home at the Top, Invested near the bottom, and bought a less expensive McMansion ( REO), at the bottom..

I was quoting I think Rothchild? back then saying "when there is blood in the streets, it is time to buy".. But I was and am a Rookie..

My Wife thought I was out of my mind....I said strap in..And we have never looked back.

To my Wife's Credit, she was all in...Love my girl...She got her home remodeled for that...

But Investing102 is the nuts and bolts... A lot of info is available out there.

I told my Wife that I am getting access to info, that in the past, only bankers and Big Investors had access to..

What project did Apple fund for you Today ???:lateral: :woot: :woot:

[Stuart Adams]

Greg, what do you think about the market if Obummer gets re elected.

[Beegs]

Lock this thread NOW!!........so I can catch up.....:willy:

[GregWeld]

Greg, what do you think about the market if Obummer gets re elected.


That becomes a political quagmire that I don't want to enter into.

I will comment re: Taxes vs Investing -- the whole have and have not discussion....

Change the tax rates on investments (i.e. tax dividends or LTCG's) from 15% to ordinary income tax rates --- and all you'll do is see money flood OUT of stocks and into TAX FREE MUNI's.... which carry a ZERO tax rate. If I see that is what's coming --- I'll be 100% out of the stock market. Ya know who gets crushed in the stampede? The little guy... the retiree... the Mutual fund holders (working people)... ME -- I'll have a little less income (maybe 5% less overall) and a lot less taxes - I'll pay ZERO.

Rich people have OPTIONS.... in other words.... they will make choices because they HAVE choices.

The POLITICAL CORRECTNESS of jumping on the latest greatest "talking point" to get elected or stay elected NEVER EVER had anything to do with what should be done or should be done RIGHT.

Equality says flat tax - no deductions - no tax free - no dividend - no offshore bs -- just everybody pay a % --- indexed UP for various income levels. Whatever that looks like. Lowest income levels should pay ZERO... pick some other level to say 300K and that's 15 or 20% - after that 25% or whatever.

The tax code needs to be fixed --- but they'll fix it by making it MORE COMPLICATED -- and my people will find a way to beat it. That's what they get paid to do. It's a chess game -- take the chess game away and you'll have a better system.

[Bucketlist2012]

That becomes a political quagmire that I don't want to enter into.

I will comment re: Taxes vs Investing -- the whole have and have not discussion....

Change the tax rates on investments (i.e. tax dividends or LTCG's) from 15% to ordinary income tax rates --- and all you'll do is see money flood OUT of stocks and into TAX FREE MUNI's.... which carry a ZERO tax rate. If I see that is what's coming --- I'll be 100% out of the stock market. Ya know who gets crushed in the stampede? The little guy... the retiree... the Mutual fund holders (working people)... ME -- I'll have a little less income (maybe 5% less overall) and a lot less taxes - I'll pay ZERO.

Rich people have OPTIONS.... in other words.... they will make choices because they HAVE choices.

The POLITICAL CORRECTNESS of jumping on the latest greatest "talking point" to get elected or stay elected NEVER EVER had anything to do with what should be done or should be done RIGHT.

Equality says flat tax - no deductions - no tax free - no dividend - no offshore bs -- just everybody pay a % --- indexed UP for various income levels. Whatever that looks like. Lowest income levels should pay ZERO... pick some other level to say 300K and that's 15 or 20% - after that 25% or whatever.

The tax code needs to be fixed --- but they'll fix it by making it MORE COMPLICATED -- and my people will find a way to beat it. That's what they get paid to do. It's a chess game -- take the chess game away and you'll have a better system.

Too hard to answer the question without speculating on the run away Spending, and the Federal Reserve, and the devaluing of the dollar.

Will Obama ramp up what he has been doing for the last few years ??
Just in case he loses, he still pushes through more spending ?? I think so..
I think that Commodities will do well, and there may be another drop or correction in stocks ,that will be a time to add positions buying..

But thanks for letting me give my point of view.. No politics here...I just try to play over a long period of time, what I see the opportunities are .. :lateral: :cheers: :woot:

Not sure that is Investing 102 ... Kind of Speculation 102.. But I am not sure.

[ErikLS2]

Ok this isn't Investing 102 totally but I was watching Jim Cramer last night (which I never do) and he was talking about a couple potential hot areas this year. Two of them I had already thought had potential, one being cloud computing for which he mentioned a company I've never heard of, VM Ware, and the other natural gas which he suggested Kinder-Morgan for.

I don't know if any of you have any experience with cloud computing but it seems to me like that's where data storage is going. If you've ever heard of Dropbox, Evernote, SugarSync, iCloud you know what I'm talking about. I use Evernote and it's extremely handy to have your info on your phone and your computer without having to do anything. The syncing possibilities for your data are almost endless.

I haven't looked into it yet but VM Ware is owned by EMC but operates as a separate software subsidiary. I'm certainly not recommending it but hoping to maybe spur a little discussion about it.

On natural gas Cramer said it's selling here for $2.50 or so but sells overseas for $14-16. This is where Kinder-Morgan comes in, they have and operate the pipelines that move this stuff around. With all the talk about big diesel going to natural gas, it looks like an area of growth to me. Obama is speaking about this soon in Vegas at a UPS facility that runs all it's trucks on natural gas.

Greg this is where you come in, being a big Kinder-Morgan fan. They have 3 different stocks, KMR, KMP, and KMI one of which according to Cramer is much more tax advantageous than the others. Since you are a fan of them, maybe you could elaborate on the differences among the 3 for me and the rest of the readers. :)

I would love to hear any other thoughts on the cloud computing thing, I know this may be more of the speculative portion of investing but it feels the same to me as it did a few years ago when I was wondering why everyone needs a cell phone.

[GregWeld]

First the easy one:

VM Ware


I am currently a large holder of EMC stock --- which owns 85% of VM Ware -- and having just sold a company to EMC that specialized in digital clustered storage (big sales into the cloud) = that company (Isilon Systems) is now owned by EMC...

VM WARE allows users to use their "computers" as Virtual Machines -- so in real quicky terms --- their software allows a large company to operate on several different OS (operating systems) and have the "clients" (user machines) operate as virtual machines. With all the different OS out there now -- iOS - Unix - Windows (whatever version) etc and then you're really running the company on something by IBM or whatever.... so basically VM Ware allows this all to take place and all the "clients" can receive changes from IT etc. So in large workplace situations it's a wonderful "fix" for a complicated problem. Hope that makes sense.

An individual can run Win (X) on their Apple (iOS) using VM Ware product... so it allows iOS to be the basic machine OS -- and allow you to run Win (X) in "virtual" mode. Pretty cool stuff and lots of people are using this product because lots of people are running Macs in a Windows world...

So you can OWN EMC stock and actually own 85% of VM Ware -- or you can just own VM Ware...

When VM Ware does well -- EMC gets a kick in it's stock because of it. EMC of course is a VERY large company compared to VM Ware.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Kinder Morgan is a little more complicated -- KMP -- Kinder Morgan Partners is a "MASTER LIMITED PARTNERSHIP" and as such has to pass most of their income on to it's partners -- when you own this stock you are a "partner". Thus a nice dividend payer (provided of course that the income stream is good!

KMP -- OWNS substantially the other two stocks - KMI and KMR....and they're all set up in a very complicated inter-related way to run and or spin off "income" from their businesses. It's so complicated that it isn't really worth trying to understand --- because in the real world that we function in --- we just want to own good companies that pay good dividends. That would be KMP --- the main Master LLP....

When you do the research -- you'll find that just owning KMP is the way to play. The growth is outstanding - the dividend is stellar -- and the other two entities -- not so much. KMR pays no dividend and actually operates more like a secondary offering to raise cash for KMP... DUDE -- your head will spin trying to figure it all out.

[GregWeld]

Now -- let's talk about you listening to CRAMER......

He will make your head spin like Beetlejuice! I listen to him all the time -- he's brilliant... his wife is more brilliant.. BUT == THEIR BACKGROUND IS TRADING....

He can't seem to get far from that trader mentality. If you listen to him and follow his advice you'll lose money. I used to -- and bought all his news letters and all his "inner workings" crap -- on which - HE made money selling to dumbasses like me.

I LOVE to listen to him --- and he makes money -- but you'll be all over the board trying to invest with him and his reasoning and strategies. FUGIDABUDIT!

INVESTING 102 is all about stopping all that nonsense and noise --- and just doing what is RIGHT --- which is buy best of breed -- you don't need ANYONE to tell you what those are - you already know the names of the 20 or so companies you'll need to invest in..... AND all you need to do is pick a name --- compare other companies in that sector -- and you'll come up with "Best of breed" ---- Best of breed stocks get you the LONG TERM proven growth -- get you the dividend, and give you stability which gives you a good nights sleep thru thick and thin. That way you don't freak out and sell LOW --- and then buy back HIGH... :rofl:

[billscamaros]

I was using "earnings season" more as a "okay NEWBS -- pay attention this week and next and see how this can affect the market in general"....

Where would I see this type of news? Schwab or Fidelity's websites, CNNMoney, .... ??

Thanks for all the insight you guys provide to this thread!!

[GregWeld]

Where would I see this type of news? Schwab or Fidelity's websites, CNNMoney, .... ??

Thanks for all the insight you guys provide to this thread!!

Well Bill -- Good question!

I get a lot of that kind of info because I get up early -- and watch CNBC... and they are always squawking (that's a CNBC pun) about stuff like that.

Schwab etc -- I don't think so. They don't really do the "news thing" like that. Wall Street Journal would mention it... Maybe CNNMoney --- I don't read that site - but then you'd have to catch a story about it... so not sure you could depend on the old "heads up" kind of thing that you'd get from shows like CNBC or Bloomberg.

[ErikLS2]

Greg, I agree on Cramer. Like I said I never watch him but I do think he knows what he's talking about. It's just nothing for the regular investor to pay attention to.

[GregWeld]

Greg, I agree on Cramer. Like I said I never watch him but I do think he knows what he's talking about. It's just nothing for the regular investor to pay attention to.


LOL --- Remember when I write -- I'm writing for EVERYONE that reads... so that wasn't aimed AT you.... it's more a general "here's my take on Cramer".

I think the guy is brilliant... but not an "investing 102" kinda guy. He's very sophisticated -- has more info at the tip of his tongue than about 90 guys do... but he's "too broad" and he's too out in front and makes too many calls buy sell and hold... :lol:

What I use him for is good general "fast" knowledge and he seems to have a very good overall take on many "situations". If I was just starting out in investing -- I wouldn't have a clue what he's talking about most of the time.

I think that after doing this for awhile -- what I've come down to believe is that you don't need to know every little detail about 10 gazillion stocks... That is the "noise" I refer to.

I wouldn't know how to start my day without him - but the guy I really miss is Mark Haines!

[Sieg]

http://media.idownloadblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Apple-Event.jpeg

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-25/apple-investors-await-dividend-gusher-as-cook-ponders-cash-hoard.html

The Apple movement is getting very interesting and educational.

[GregWeld]

http://media.idownloadblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Apple-Event.jpeg

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-25/apple-investors-await-dividend-gusher-as-cook-ponders-cash-hoard.html

The Apple movement is getting very interesting and educational.



Okay so here's the NOISE take on this... people will be talking for weeks about how much cash on hand - and what they should do with it etc... but that is NOISE. What you should focus on as an investor - regardless of what company - is all the simple stuff we've been discussing. My take on Apple -- GREAT COMPANY - beyond stellar growth.... no dividend but the growth makes up for that in spades... as long as we can go to the mall and see LINES of people buying stuff... how can you go wrong with a company like that? How many other companies have people lined up to spend $200 to $2000 a pop?

But I wouldn't "speculate" buying a company hoping they suddenly pay a dividend.... cause the minute you do that - they do something 180* out from that. So I'd just buy based on all the things I KNOW now... and whatever happens happens.

Does that make sense?

[Sieg]

It definitely makes sense.

The early analyst noise this morning about the stock target prices of $500 to $540 and one even speculating $599 left me unable to comprehend due to lack of knowledge. Then the early volume had a major spike that lead to 34.2 million shares for the day and the stock closes up $26 dollars for the day.

The popularity of their products can't be denied but I wonder how long their products can hold premium retail prices. In one way it appears they could be building one really big bubble.

The lack of dividend and the share price are tough to swallow for a little guy like me. I also don't perceive the company as overly generous in respect to their customer or share holder. I guess 5 shares and pray for a split may be better than the what if senerio. :willy:

[Bucketlist2012]

LOL --- Remember when I write -- I'm writing for EVERYONE that reads... so that wasn't aimed AT you.... it's more a general "here's my take on Cramer".

I think the guy is brilliant... but not an "investing 102" kinda guy. He's very sophisticated -- has more info at the tip of his tongue than about 90 guys do... but he's "too broad" and he's too out in front and makes too many calls buy sell and hold... :lol:

What I use him for is good general "fast" knowledge and he seems to have a very good overall take on many "situations". If I was just starting out in investing -- I wouldn't have a clue what he's talking about most of the time.

I think that after doing this for awhile -- what I've come down to believe is that you don't need to know every little detail about 10 gazillion stocks... That is the "noise" I refer to.

I wouldn't know how to start my day without him - but the guy I really miss is Mark Haines!

Greg, Mark was the guy on CNBC that just died ??? That guy I liked. I like Kudlow too.. There is a lot of noise about the ups and downs, but I need to watch something in the early AM with Coffee. I don't buy on the info, but it is good to get different perspectives on investments.

Cramer is moving at a fast pace, but I watch him sometimes to see where he is headed.. but don't blink, cause you will miss 5 things that he just said...hyper guy Cramer is...

[GregWeld]

It definitely makes sense.

The early analyst noise this morning about the stock target prices of $500 to $540 and one even speculating $599 left me unable to comprehend due to lack of knowledge. Then the early volume had a major spike that lead to 34.2 million shares for the day and the stock closes up $26 dollars for the day.

The popularity of their products can't be denied but I wonder how long their products can hold premium retail prices. In one way it appears they could be building one really big bubble.

The lack of dividend and the share price are tough to swallow for a little guy like me. I also don't perceive the company as overly generous in respect to their customer or share holder. I guess 5 shares and pray for a split may be better than the what if senerio. :willy:


I would never buy 5 shares - of anything....

2 grand to invest can get you good companies - with share prices below $50 and that pay a dividend.

[GregWeld]

Greg, Mark was the guy on CNBC that just died ??? That guy I liked. I like Kudlow too.. There is a lot of noise about the ups and downs, but I need to watch something in the early AM with Coffee. I don't buy on the info, but it is good to get different perspectives on investments.

Cramer is moving at a fast pace, but I watch him sometimes to see where he is headed.. but don't blink, cause you will miss 5 things that he just said...hyper guy Cramer is...


Yes... Sadly Mark passed away suddenly. That guy could really drill down on the root issues.

My routine is up early - coffee pot - auger down in my corner of the sofa - put CNBC on and fire up the laptop. Check all the news and anything that might affect my stocks (looking for BIG NEWS - not noise)... and then read Lat G... :D

Being retired has it's pluses!

[GregWeld]

In fairness of reporting --- I used the weakness in AT&T (T) to add 5000 shares this morning. The dividend is huge -- and the "earnings miss" is explainable via the huge amount of iPhones they sold in the quarter (this costs them up front but builds revenues going forward) and the T-Mobile costs to take down that deal. I don't mind an earnings miss if it's not a lack of sales!


I also added 2000 shares of Kinder Morgan Partners (KMP) because they go ex-dividend (ex-dividend means anyone that owns it before that date gets this quarters dividend) on the 31st. It's been a stellar performer and pays a huge dividend.

Here's the investing 102 lesson on "ex-dividend"... you can choose to pick up the dividend (as I have done with this purchase).... or you can buy the stock on the dip that "USUALLY HAPPENS" after they pay the dividend - lowering your cost basis (which is half a dozen to one 6 to the other).... Since I live off my dividends -- I chose to add the shares now and get the cash. I already have a huge gain in the shares which equals half of what I just invested...

[Bucketlist2012]

Yes... Sadly Mark passed away suddenly. That guy could really drill down on the root issues.

My routine is up early - coffee pot - auger down in my corner of the sofa - put CNBC on and fire up the laptop. Check all the news and anything that might affect my stocks (looking for BIG NEWS - not noise)... and then read Lat G... :D

Being retired has it's pluses!

Greg, Yes suddenly ...That was sad... That was my morning routine ever since I almost died in 2009. Since then I have been recovering. So i get the suddenly you're dead thing really good.

Now you know why I have been taking large chunks of life..I won't stop taking chunks of life from now on.. A couple of near death's will focus you really quick.

Tim Russert was another guy, not financial, but could get to the roots..fairly unbiased too. Dead suddenly.

Yes, Cats, Coffee, CNBC, and checking LatG and my portfolio. And check the news mainly to learn more. Since I don't move my assets too much, the noise is just that.. NOISE.. Yesterday, and today have been quite nice..:woot:

Sure only unrealized gains, but still nice to wake up to large gains:woot: :cheers: :lateral:

[Bucketlist2012]

In fairness of reporting --- I used the weakness in AT&T (T) to add 5000 shares this morning. The dividend is huge -- and the "earnings miss" is explainable via the huge amount of iPhones they sold in the quarter (this costs them up front but builds revenues going forward) and the T-Mobile costs to take down that deal. I don't mind an earnings miss if it's not a lack of sales!


I also added 2000 shares of Kinder Morgan Partners (KMP) because they go ex-dividend (ex-dividend means anyone that owns it before that date gets this quarters dividend) on the 31st. It's been a stellar performer and pays a huge dividend.

Here's the investing 102 lesson on "ex-dividend"... you can choose to pick up the dividend (as I have done with this purchase).... or you can buy the stock on the dip that "USUALLY HAPPENS" after they pay the dividend - lowering your cost basis (which is half a dozen to one 6 to the other).... Since I live off my dividends -- I chose to add the shares now and get the cash. I already have a huge gain in the shares which equals half of what I just invested...

Oh man, I must really read your posts... Well done... At 52, I am now living off Dividends.. i am not doing too bad, but I see that i am not getting everything I can, out of my money YET>

Your knowledge is great.. I am learning how to maximize my Money. I own a lot of KMP.. It has never let me down.. I will double check before the 31.. i may add more...I am a energy distribution whore...

[Sieg]

I would never buy 5 shares - of anything....

2 grand to invest can get you good companies - with share prices below $50 and that pay a dividend.

The response answers my open ended statement.

I imagine there are number of shares vs price per share ratio's out there to aide in the decision. My basic fundamentals have been minimum of 100 shares with a price range of 20-40 and above 3.5% dividend. My recent additions have been MO, VZ, PFE, XLS.
I've been watching T closely as that dividend is hard to ignore even though it weights the portfolio I don't see the sector declining anytime soon.

Thanks again Greg, the educational value of this thread continues to compound. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

The response answers my open ended statement.

I imagine there are number of shares vs price per share ratio's out there to aide in the decision. My basic fundamentals have been minimum of 100 shares with a price range of 20-40 and above 3.5% dividend. My recent additions have been MO, VZ, PFE, XLS.
I've been watching T closely as that dividend is hard to ignore even though it weights the portfolio I don't see the sector declining anytime soon.

Thanks again Greg, the educational value of this thread continues to compound. :thumbsup:


I don't want to get into recommending individual stocks... that's a dicey business... and I'm not a broker or a friggin' stock guru (Cramer)... which is why I'm trying to stick to PRINCIPLES and THOUGHT PROCESS (for NEWBS)...

I agree that if you're a smaller investor -- you don't need to own TWO TELECOS... Pick the one you do business with - or like - or just want the dividend from. These are "steady eddies" with nice dividend streams... which is why and how I use them.


You might want to look into a holding I have - PFF - this is an ETF (exchanged traded fund - so is similar to a mutual fund). PFF invests in PREFERRED S&P dividend payers... It pays MONTHLY... and is currently yielding 6.99%

Read what they're into --- and make your own decisions based on YOUR research and needs NOT my "recommendation". I'm picking this stock (ETF) out as a way for a smaller investor to get some yield - get some diversity without having to pick several individual shares. The price will let you "in" .

I like to buy preferred shares if the yield is right - and it's in a name I know.... the DIFFERENCE is THEY PAY INTEREST not a dividend so the tax treatment is ordinary income. So watch out for that if you're buying that kind of thing OUTSIDE an IRA/SEP/ROTH type account.

WATCH OUT FOR WORDING --- DISTRIBUTION YIELD vs QUALIFIED DIVIDEND

One (DY) is ordinary tax and one (QD) is 15% tax max.

[GregWeld]

Yesterday, and today have been quite nice..:woot:

Sure only unrealized gains, but still nice to wake up to large gains:woot: :cheers: :lateral:


I got a good chuckle out of that.... So that was my "lesson" on "earnings season".... this time around "earnings" seem to be going OUR WAY.... they can easily go the other way.... but I was trying to bring them up so people might pay just a bit of attention to them and to get a relationship of what happens to the market "in general".... so the next time we're in "the season" -- people will understand what the heck the talking heads are squawking about.


RE: Unrealized gains -- and the market

When I started 2011 I had great gains going into the beginning of the year - then thru summer (the summer swoon = Sell in May and go away) - all my gains were erased and I went negative (I used that period to ADD to positions)... and by the end of the year I had all my gains back plus (and I'd collected all those wonderful dividends on top of that!)

FOLKS READING THIS --- Let me tell you that when things are going WELL -- it's real easy to be an investor! It's easy to look real smart - and everything you touch turns to gold.... I can tell you that when things go south -- it's FAR FAR HARDER TO BUY and STAY INVESTED.... and everything you do looks like you're an idiot. THAT is when you go back to the charts -- look at them -- long term -- look at that dividend -- and look at what you're into... and sit back and relax. That's when you need to be COMFORTABLE with what you own. That will test your fortitude... it will push every panic button... and you'll quickly find out your "tolerance" levels. If you panic and SELL during these periods -- I'll be the guy buying the shares you're dumping and I'll pick up the gains when they come back.... :woot:

[Sieg]

I understand the recommendation issues. I wasn't fishing for a blessing, just putting my cards on the table as an one example.......I guess. I'm always open to constructive criticism or speculation, everyone's wired a little differently and the more examples the better to some degree.

Personal preference vs. portfolio balance is a real challenge at times. This stock buying is similar to balancing wants and needs in the good old fashion buffet line.

I've been researching EFT's and one will most likely be my final purchase and I'll be done with the buying frenzy with the exception of some long over-due house cleaning when the time is right, then I'll sit back and watch results and adjust as needed.

PS - I trust you more than Cramer.........besides, you're taller. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Personal preference vs. portfolio balance is a real challenge at times. This stock buying is similar to balancing wants and needs in the good old fashion buffet line.


I totally agree -- there's too many choices out there... and it can be very hard when it's real money - and you're having to make choices.

That is why I've really tried to use EXAMPLES to discuss -- more for the THOUGHTS rather than the actual stock/etf/mutual fund being used for the discussion.

Just like my "I bought X" post -- Nobody should feel that's what THEY should do -- I'm just using the example so I can lead into the thought behind the buy or sale. I think that's where this thread is useful -- the discussion of the reasoning... and trying to BUILD on that reasoning by adding some tidbits along the way... so people can make their own decisions --- I don't care if they're only choosing which mutual fund to buy! At least they might look into them a bit more -- and use some thought process to choose A from B. If not -- we're all just wasting our time -- and I don't think we are. At least I hope not. :faint:

[Sieg]

I totally agree -- there's too many choices out there... and it can be very hard when it's real money - and you're having to make choices.

That is why I've really tried to use EXAMPLES to discuss -- more for the THOUGHTS rather than the actual stock/etf/mutual fund being used for the discussion.

Just like my "I bought X" post -- Nobody should feel that's what THEY should do -- I'm just using the example so I can lead into the thought behind the buy or sale. I think that's where this thread is useful -- the discussion of the reasoning... and trying to BUILD on that reasoning by adding some tidbits along the way... so people can make their own decisions --- I don't care if they're only choosing which mutual fund to buy! At least they might look into them a bit more -- and use some thought process to choose A from B. If not -- we're all just wasting our time -- and I don't think we are. At least I hope not. :faint:

I doubt anyone following this thread has perceived it as a waste of time. Being able to observe insights and actions from the numerous contributors is very educational and I haven't noticed anyone making a move that lead me to think WTF did you do that for. One upside to all the choices, provided reasonable fundamentals are applied is there are a lot of nutritional choices that can satisfy the individual's appetite.

Engaging or in my case reengaging with more knowledge and developing a better feel for the big market picture with a fundamentalist focus has been emotionally rewarding in the short-term, hopefully, thanks to insight provided in this thread it will be financially rewarding long-term. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Since we're not hearing from many varied posters -- I'm wondering if there is "too much" information and maybe it needs to be dialed back...

There really only seems to be 4 or 5 posters lately -- and that tells me maybe folks have stopped reading????

[Bucketlist2012]

Since we're not hearing from many varied posters -- I'm wondering if there is "too much" information and maybe it needs to be dialed back...

There really only seems to be 4 or 5 posters lately -- and that tells me maybe folks have stopped reading????

No, I have not stopped reading... Please continue to share.:cheers:

For me, again I am doing something different, and I would rather be listening than talking.. I do not want to come on as the somewhat lucky rookie, sharing my speculation/investing strategy..

Although it works, I am learning so much on this thread..:thumbsup:

I ALWAYS check this thread...So please continue.:lateral:

It would be a crime , if you stopped.. Money and Hot Rods and the Good Life, are all needed..

Speaking of that, I may be gone doing whatever I want. Haircut, Check on my Car build...

But I will check back soon. you can count on that.

Mike V:woot:

[GregWeld]

Thanks Mike -- it just occurred to me that only you - Sieg - and a couple others are asking questions or participating... so got to thinking that maybe it's gone sour somehow. :thumbsup:

[carbuff]

Haven't posted in this thread yet, but reading every post along the way. No, I don't think it's gone south at all... Hopefully others, like myself, enjoy reading and finding motivation in it. :cheers:

[dhutton]

Thanks Mike -- it just occurred to me that only you - Sieg - and a couple others are asking questions or participating... so got to thinking that maybe it's gone sour somehow. :thumbsup:

I am following the thread and trying to use the advice given. I just don't have anything useful to add so I am keeping quiet.

Using the advice here I have made a little money in my Schwab account and my 401k. It has been an interesting ride so far and it takes a lot to remind myself that I am investing and not trading.... :lol:

My best success to date is CAT, my biggest flub to date is VZ. It's only been three and a half weeks so let's see where I am in a year.

Thanks,
Don

[96z28ss]

No its good reading.
I wouldn't dial it back. I've been reading and am starting to do some research.
I have a couple 401k's from employers I even have a pension from one. I don't have any stocks at this time thats why I haven't posted. I'm sure its the same with others. I'm taking it all in.

[lmnop]

Hi Greg
As you can see this is my first post. I have been reading this thread from the beginning and will continue to do so. I come to this site because I love all the car builds, as I am not in the position to build a car yet, I just read. I feel lucky I stumbled across this thread as I have learned a lot about investing and I am appreciative that you have opened some of you financial information so others can learn. I also feel it is very brave. 99% of my investments are in real estate because it is what I know I always looked at the stock market like magic box that I would never understand. By breaking it down so simply you have alleviated some of my fear and I now look forward to diversifying and buying stock in the in the places I shop in and the professions that I know. It is funny how many times I have looked at a busy store and said to myself “they must be doing really well” I never thought to see if I could buy shares so I could start doing really well too. Thanks for all the great information and I will continue to read this thread and the bubble top thread although one needs some more pictures.
Ray

[Payton King]

lots of hits with few posters but the information is condensed, consice and full of everyday reason.

There are always things going on that move markets and provide good discussion to make a point. IE the last earnings report.

Other topics are worthy of discsussion even though they may not be reccommended for what you are trying to do here, but it would give the readers more information and broader knowledge.

[ErikLS2]

Since CNBC came up it should probably be suggested, at least to the NEWB investors on here, that it should not be used to make investment decisions. They have to fill their air with stuff (NOISE), much of which is a bunch of "experts" doing nothing more than predicting the future. They don't have any better a crystal ball than anyone reading this thread. It is a good source for financial news and you can even use it to learn about companies that you can then RESEARCH before you invest in them. Just don't dump any of your money into a stock just because someone on there likes it. But, if they happen to say have a CEO on and you like the business philosophy or a new product they have coming out or what have you, then do some homework on the company and THEN decide if you want to become an owner of it.

[CRCRFT78]

Speaking for myself, at the pace this thread is moving a recap wouldn't hurt for those trying to "catch up" with the info provided. I try and understand what is said before moving ahead so that i don't get lost. There are various levels of investment understanding between us and I can see how it would be easy for someone just jumping aboard the investment ship to quickly get thrown overboard. This thread has taken on a life of its own. 55 pages and counting.

I applaud you for providing such a wealth of information. I have made some moves that I probably wouldn't have made without this information. All I need to do now is continue to apply it and watch my money grow.

LOL it was at 55 pages when I started my response. This thread would be an ideal investment with the steady growth its getting.

[Bucketlist2012]

Thanks Mike -- it just occurred to me that only you - Sieg - and a couple others are asking questions or participating... so got to thinking that maybe it's gone sour somehow. :thumbsup:

You bet.... Never stop...It should never be sour, because it is so important..

You are sharing and in a way, giving back to people by your success...

I do it on a money management level, but I am not comfortable giving investment advise , except the most basic stuff because I can only explain what I know...Again, I consider myself a novice...

Kudos on having the knowledge and sharing...:lateral: :cheers: :woot:

[Bucketlist2012]

Speaking for myself, at the pace this thread is moving a recap wouldn't hurt for those trying to "catch up" with the info provided. I try and understand what is said before moving ahead so that i don't get lost. There are various levels of investment understanding between us and I can see how it would be easy for someone just jumping aboard the investment ship to quickly get thrown overboard. This thread has taken on a life of its own. 55 pages and counting.

I applaud you for providing such a wealth of information. I have made some moves that I probably wouldn't have made without this information. All I need to do now is continue to apply it and watch my money grow.

LOL it was at 55 pages when I started my response. This thread would be an ideal investment with the steady growth its getting.


I really feel the need to re-read my homework too...:cheers:

[GregWeld]

Well okay then!:thumbsup:

I see we have a lot of readers -- and just not posters. I was really starting to think that it was a private conversation between about 5 people. So thanks for the feedback. There's no way to tell if it's of any interest to a broad swath of folks - particularly when everyone is so "quiet".

I'm on a flight to Ontario, CA to meet up with "the boys" for Grand National Roadster Show this weekend so will try to give some thoughts to a "recap" post as requested when I have a quiet moment to gather my thoughts.

It'll be hard to switch off the background NOISE I'll no doubt get down here... I'll have about 5 or 6 tall guys trying to beat me down 24/7!! :unibrow: Rodger and I have build stuff to go over etc...

[GregWeld]

My best success to date is CAT, my biggest flub to date is VZ. It's only been three and a half weeks so let's see where I am in a year.

Thanks,
Don


Don -- If you owned 20 or 300 individual stocks -- those "flubs" will move about with time... Remember the little dude on Wall street that takes YOUR latest purchase (investment) straight to the dog house 15 seconds after you hit the buy button!

So CAT --- which has had a very nice run contrary to what Europe and China and the USA have been telling you (which is building stuff STINKS)... just turned in a stellar quarter! But remember that you need GROWTH (which CAT is showing us it has) to trade off for the dismal 1.56% dividend payout... whereas VZ has that nice 5.56%... so VZ is paying you to wait for the stock to catch up.

What we're seeing -- and have seen -- and will continue to see with the big wireless guys is huge build out costs trying to one up each other with capacity and speed etc - and then you add the subscriber costs... every time someone buys an iPhone -- these guys are PAYING APPLE about $400 for each one of those! Good for Apple -- not so hot for the bottom-line of VZ and T... and now T-Mobile. But those subscribers are paying premium monthly bills so eventually the cash flows to the bottom line. In the meantime you get a nice quarterly payout. :woot:

[sik68]

:hail:

I can't say it any better than that, and here is some good data on the cellular industry:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2397688,00.asp

Highlight:
"Approximately 44 percent of Americans now own smartphones, up from 18 percent two years ago, "

That's phenomenal growth, and like Greg said it takes a lot of infrastructure/cost to keep all of these data users happy...but at $20+ per month, per data device, they are raking in the cash. And with only 2 or 3 real players in the US, it's not hard to see who is holding the rakes. (Although, I also bought Sprint (S) at $5 and so far that's not panning out well at all).

AND

That leaves a large majority as untapped data plan customers...data is a cash cow, and it's only in its infancy. IMHO.

[Woody]

Since we're not hearing from many varied posters -- I'm wondering if there is "too much" information and maybe it needs to be dialed back...

There really only seems to be 4 or 5 posters lately -- and that tells me maybe folks have stopped reading????

Greg,

I haven't been posting much lately, but I still check this thread several times a day. I think you are providing some great information which has really got me more interested in researching individual stocks.

One of the sectors that I have not seen mentioned yet is alcohol. I figured it should rank up there with tobacco. I was doing some research on alcohol stocks and came across DEO. The dividend is slightly less than 3.0, but the stock has a pretty good growth record over the last 10 years. It looked to me to be one of the better choices in this industry. Any thoughts about the alcohol industry. I also took a look at BUD, TAP, SAM,HINKY, & PDRDF. SAM has had phenominal growth, but does not pay a dividend.

Thanks

[MoparCar]

I'm still reading---several times a day, and sometimes re-reading. Please keep it up. I'm still learning daily. I think some of us who previously have not been "investors" (besides typical 401K type investments) perhaps don't have a lot of input because we are learning from reading and watching since we don't have the personal knowledge to "help". I personally am learning a lot.

Thanks-I look forward to every post!

[Musclerodz]

I read this thread everyday, sometime several. If I don't I fall way behind real quick. Thread is more of a seminar for me, sit back, listen to the speakers, and try to understand it all. I have enjoyed everybit of it and hope to apply some of it very soon.

[Sieg]

Great feedback it's nice to see so many people taking this to heart!

If I may, I'll speculate that like myself many might be hesitant to post comments or questions for fear of exposing their perceived lack of investing/financial knowledge or be labeled neglegent for not addressing investing or retirement funding matters earlier in their life.

What I've observed is the key contributors in this thread have a reasonable amount of experience, put a lot of effort into their delivery to insure they are sensitive to the "other" issues, and have a genuine desire to help fellow car enthusiasts.

The common objective appears to be getting people engaged and learning about fundamental investment principles and strategies, thus creating opportunities for themselves to improve their financial position and quality of life.......no matter what the age or phase. What I really appreciate is that the information is not being handed to us on a silver platter, we're being forced to think and investigate which greatly adds to the value of the lesson.

Please don't hesitate to participate, more participation creates more learning opportunitites, which deliver more qualified dividends to the participants. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Greg,

I haven't been posting much lately, but I still check this thread several times a day. I think you are providing some great information which has really got me more interested in researching individual stocks.

One of the sectors that I have not seen mentioned yet is alcohol. I figured it should rank up there with tobacco. I was doing some research on alcohol stocks and came across DEO. The dividend is slightly less than 3.0, but the stock has a pretty good growth record over the last 10 years. It looked to me to be one of the better choices in this industry. Any thoughts about the alcohol industry. I also took a look at BUD, TAP, SAM,HINKY, & PDRDF. SAM has had phenominal growth, but does not pay a dividend.

Thanks

I haven't had a drink in 27 years -- so I really don't know much about the brands etc -- but I have looked at Diageo (DEO) and have considered buying it. My personal problem is --- with beers and alcohol is that I personally don't track with what is popular... so I stay away from what I don't know. Remember I'm always preaching to buy things you know and understand... so from a purely personal perspective I have to follow my own advice. That is not to say Budweiser (BUD) would't be a good fit for someone else's portfolio - or any of the other brewers or alcohol firms. So with that :cheers:

[GregWeld]

If I may, I'll speculate that like myself many might be hesitant to post comments or questions for fear of exposing their perceived lack of investing/financial knowledge or be labeled neglegent for not addressing investing or retirement funding matters earlier in their life.


A very astute perspective and one that I hadn't thought about....

So we'll just assume there are readers out there -- and when they want to chime in -- then feel free.

I just finished having dinner with Rodger (Ironworks) and Jason (WAR) and after the flight down -- and going over to the show and messing around a bit - I'm too tired to do the re-cap... so that will have to wait.

Tomorrow we hit Waldens before the show opens up... :woot:

[Sieg]

A very astute perspective and one that I hadn't thought about....

So we'll just assume there are readers out there -- and when they want to chime in -- then feel free.

I just finished having dinner with Rodger (Ironworks) and Jason (WAR) and after the flight down -- and going over to the show and messing around a bit - I'm too tired to do the re-cap... so that will have to wait.

Tomorrow we hit Waldens before the show opens up... :woot:
Have a great time! I expect to see a lot of pictures from that fancy iPhone 4s. The company you keep reminds me of your portfolio's. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Have a great time! I expect to see a lot of pictures from that fancy iPhone 4s. The company you keep reminds me of your portfolio's. :thumbsup:

I did manage to buy this tonight -- snagged it before the show opens
tomorrow!! Everyone needs shop art!




http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Fun%20Fotos/photo.jpg

[Sieg]

That's cool! What carb(s)?

[Bucketlist2012]

I haven't had a drink in 27 years -- so I really don't know much about the brands etc -- but I have looked at Diageo (DEO) and have considered buying it. My personal problem is --- with beers and alcohol is that I personally don't track with what is popular... so I stay away from what I don't know. Remember I'm always preaching to buy things you know and understand... so from a purely personal perspective I have to follow my own advice. That is not to say Budweiser (BUD) would't be a good fit for someone else's portfolio - or any of the other brewers or alcohol firms. So with that :cheers:

Diageo has been one to look at.. I am busy, so I have no numbers for you, but look at it's performance..:thumbsup:

And yes, we will keep sharing Investment thoughts, because it is so Important..

Man, Investing is everything.. Without it, inflation over time will drain anything you have saved...So we need Investing 102.

Also I don't know if there are Guys out there that aren't managing their money well, and have nothing to invest.

But I think the few that continue to post have the income and cash to invest.. But for those who don't....It is all about what you bring in, and what you spend...If it ain't working, something has to change. Either more income, or less going out...Because you have to be in the game to win. And this Investing 102 Thread, is your Ticket to the Big Game....:lateral: :cheers: :woot:

[GregWeld]

That's cool! What carb(s)?

The artist and his wife were kinda busy trying to set up the booth ... so I didn't take a look at the carbs... I just spent some time picking out the one I wanted.


RE: Investing 102

Man I was sure hoping FORD (F) was going to blow away this quarter... This is where we see the effects of Europe on "our" companies. Mind you -- they still did fine they just "missed" the estimates. When companies "miss the estimates" they go down. I don't own any Ford but was kinda keeping an eye on it as a possible.

[Sieg]

Regarding Ford - What factors would trigger you to purchase shares?

[GregWeld]

Regarding Ford - What factors would trigger you to purchase shares?


Growing sales and profits and raising the dividend. The dividend just isn't there to cover the risk with the world economy still "struggling". If it paid me 4.5% or so to sit on my hands -- I'd be okay with that. Or -- that ever present stellar growth to offset the stinky little 1.64% dividend.


Remember this when investing. YOU ALWAYS HAVE CHOICES --- so why CHOOSE to invest in something that is a "maybe" or doesn't meet your criteria when there's 100's of companies that do?

[Sieg]

Remember this when investing. YOU ALWAYS HAVE CHOICES --- so why CHOOSE to invest in something that is a "maybe" or doesn't meet your criteria when there's 100's of companies that do?

Words to live by right there. :thumbsup:

At times I find myself so fixated on company "ABC" just because it catches my eye like big boobs when in reality there are so many others that have much better bodies overall but no fake boobies. :D

[Bucketlist2012]

Words to live by right there. :thumbsup:

At times I find myself so fixated on company "ABC" just because it catches my eye like big boobs when in reality there are so many others that have much better bodies overall but no fake boobies. :D

And you have to be into it during the rough moments...A.k.a. My KMP , which i own a lot of, is getting hammered today..

No sweat, because of the dividends, and the fact that I have opposing assets that zig when KMP zags, and they pay dividends too..:lateral: :woot:

So greg, after today, should fellow listeners be buying as you said before the 31 st ????

I have I think plenty, so I may not add, but to the viewers, it may be the TIME...

Finally a question from me about investing...I have been cheer leading too much..

So, Buy KMP after the dip, and before the 31st ?????

[CRCRFT78]

I'll admit, I've been watching KMP since it was first mentioned in this thread but after reading Gregs comments about it the other day I may buy into it. The dip dropped the price and I've got some money to spend.

[Bucketlist2012]

I'll admit, I've been watching KMP since it was first mentioned in this thread but after reading Gregs comments about it the other day I may buy into it. The dip dropped the price and I've got some money to spend.

I hope Greg chimes in.:cheers: I am a large holder of KMP, so I am just watching this on, and not adding. But he may be right on ,as usual, haha.....especially with the 31st coming.

And big dip today..Since I own PM's, it is a wash, and not a Loss today.:thumbsup:

I am off to East Bay Muscle Cars to test my car..It is in a Color photo shoot right now. :woot:

[Bucketlist2012]

I'll admit, I've been watching KMP since it was first mentioned in this thread but after reading Gregs comments about it the other day I may buy into it. The dip dropped the price and I've got some money to spend.

I hope Greg chimes in.:cheers: I am a large holder of KMP, so I am just watching this one, but he may be right on , especially with the 31st coming.

And big dip today..Since I own PM's and other asset classes, it is a wash, and not a Loss today.:thumbsup:

I am off to East Bay Muscle Cars to test my car..It is in a Color photo shoot right now. :woot:

I may have it home Today...:lateral:

[Sieg]

Dear Weldy,

What I would like to discuss next is:

-Signs that it's time to say goodbye.

-Strategies for dumping longtime loosers.

-Loss grievance techniques and support classes.

The reality is I have a few long-time holdings that I'm upside down in due to account neglegence that need to be purged from the portfolio.........including two that went bankrupt. So outside insight would be appreciated as I'm probably not the only one sitting on dead skunks. :thumbsup:

[bdahlg68]

One stock I'd like to add for discussion is MV Oil Trust (MVO) [especially for those investing via 401k/IRA/SEP/ROTH]. High yield (via profit distribution and NOT dividend) at 8.79%, and a decent looking chart (only 5 years though). Distribution is back on the rise since the 2008/2009 drop. 5 year total return is 179.29% (at least according to ycharts.com). I like it and I'm considering getting in on this dip.

[sik68]

The internet has made it tough for a company to impress investors these days. It's not enough that a company posts a profit. It's not enough that a company beats the estimate. It seems like the only way to get people to prevent your stock from plummeting on call day is to beat the estimate by more than people expect! :willy: If I ran a company it would drive me nuts. "Come on people, what more can you ask for?!"

[Bucketlist2012]

One stock I'd like to add for discussion is MV Oil Trust (MVO) [especially for those investing via 401k/IRA/SEP/ROTH]. High yield (via profit distribution and NOT dividend) at 8.79%, and a decent looking chart (only 5 years though). Distribution is back on the rise since the 2008/2009 drop. 5 year total return is 179.29% (at least according to ycharts.com). I like it and I'm considering getting in on this dip.

Yes, ask Greg about Oil Royalty Trusts.. BPT, and PBT, have been some of my holdings.. Most of mine are dividend paying assets..BPT is an 8 % dividend with a 50% plus rise in 3 and 5 year chart. The total return was 107% to 167%.
3, and 5 year PBT is a 6 % dividend, with a 30 % and 45% rise in 3 and 5 year charts.

I am just asking.



although the gains are stellar, i am looking at the dividends...well both, but i am after income stream.

[Woody]

Yes, ask Greg about Oil Royalty Trusts.. BPT, and PBT, have been some of my holdings.. Most of mine are dividend paying assets..BPT is an 8 % dividend with a 50% plus rise in 3 and 5 year chart. The total return was 107% to 167%.
3, and 5 year PBT is a 6 % dividend, with a 30 % and 45% rise in 3 and 5 year charts.

I am just asking.



although the gains are stellar, i am looking at the dividends...well both, but i am after income stream.

One of the things that would concern me is that the performance is obviously tied to the price of crude oil. Take a look at a crude oil chart.


http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CO/M

The charts of BPT and PBT are highly correlated. If you look at the dividends, during the declines in crude oil prices you will see the dividends declining as fast as the price of crude. While they currently pay a high dividend, I would not expect that to continue if the price of crude declined.

These look much riskier to me than most of the other stocks we have been discussing.

[Bucketlist2012]

One of the things that would concern me is that the performance is obviously tied to the price of crude oil. Take a look at a crude oil chart.


http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CO/M

The charts of BPT and PBT are highly correlated. If you look at the dividends, during the declines in crude oil prices you will see the dividends declining as fast as the price of crude. While they currently pay a high dividend, I would not expect that to continue if the price of crude declined.

These look much riskier to me than most of the other stocks we have been discussing.

Good point..that is why I have been more of a listener than a poster..

I do not want to cloud the Investing 102 thread at all..Thanks for your input..:cheers: :lateral:

[bdahlg68]

MVO correlates to oil just like those two stocks and the Dow. Obviously lots of other factors affect share price, not just oil price. MVO has done pretty well considering. Connection to a certain commodity or region or ... is something really to be considered before investing in a stock. Just make sure you consider more than one outside influence on stock price!

[Woody]

MVO correlates to oil just like those two stocks and the Dow. Obviously lots of other factors affect share price, not just oil price. MVO has done pretty well considering. Connection to a certain commodity or region or ... is something really to be considered before investing in a stock. Just make sure you consider more than one outside influence on stock price!


Agreed. In fact these stocks seem to have more risk than just being tied to the price of oil.

I would just hate to see someone think they are getting a safe dividend payer and put a significant portion of your portfolio into those stocks. I think they could be a small percentage of one's portfolio to help boost your overall returns, though.

Also, I am by no means an expert, so I am just throwing my two cents in for what it may be worth.

[Bucketlist2012]

Agreed. In fact these stocks seem to have more risk than just being tied to the price of oil.

I would just hate to see someone think they are getting a safe dividend payer and put a significant portion of your portfolio into those stocks. I think they could be a small percentage of one's portfolio to help boost your overall returns, though.

Also, I am by no means an expert, so I am just throwing my two cents in for what it may be worth.

Good call. In reality, it is a small portion of my portfolio. i will have to be more clear when i mention things..

Just like I won't talk about other investments I am doing...not really the nuts and bolts of Investing 102.. :cheers:

[GregWeld]

And you have to be into it during the rough moments...A.k.a. My KMP , which i own a lot of, is getting hammered today..

No sweat, because of the dividends, and the fact that I have opposing assets that zig when KMP zags, and they pay dividends too..:lateral: :woot:

So greg, after today, should fellow listeners be buying as you said before the 31 st ????

I have I think plenty, so I may not add, but to the viewers, it may be the TIME...

Finally a question from me about investing...I have been cheer leading too much..

So, Buy KMP after the dip, and before the 31st ?????


I'm not going to "champion" individual stocks.... I only use them as examples and the thinking process I (BIG BOLD I) apply to MY (BIG BOLD MY) investing style.:_paranoid

KMP is an "energy" play -- i.e., pipes and transferring "energy"... and I think a well diversified portfolio should have "some" energy. Whether you choose KMP - COP - EEP - XOM - CVX all depends on your account and what you need. I personally own KMP - EEP - COP - CHKR. They give my account the diversity and the DIVIDENDS that I want. My accounts are a "bit" different than "investing 102".... they're most likely a "bit" larger -- so when I'm trying to diversify I need more than one name in a sector. I bought the COP after doing some digging around for an answer to another post back a few pages. As ALWAYS it's down since I bought it... that my friends is a "given" in investing and that's when you need to have some patience (and some fortitude).

[Bucketlist2012]

I'm not going to "champion" individual stocks.... I only use them as examples and the thinking process I (BIG BOLD I) apply to MY (BIG BOLD MY) investing style.:_paranoid

KMP is an "energy" play -- i.e., pipes and transferring "energy"... and I think a well diversified portfolio should have "some" energy. Whether you choose KMP - COP - EEP - XOM - CVX all depends on your account and what you need. I personally own KMP - EEP - COP - CHKR. They give my account the diversity and the DIVIDENDS that I want. My accounts are a "bit" different than "investing 102".... they're most like a "bit" larger -- so when I'm trying to diversify I need more than one name in a sector. I bought the COP after doing some digging around for an answer to another post back a few pages. As ALWAYS it's down since I bought it... that my friends is a "given" in investing and that's when you need to have some patient (and some fortitude).

Greg, welcome back.:cheers:

Yes, when i buy into something that i think is down, it sure can go down more, before it goes up past your buy point..

I just do the research, and then wait it out.. almost always there is a loss before the real gain happens, because i am not timing the bottom, no one can..

today was my first ride in my modified Muscle car, I had so much fun, i could explode...:lateral:

[GregWeld]

Yes, ask Greg about Oil Royalty Trusts.. BPT, and PBT, have been some of my holdings.. Most of mine are dividend paying assets..BPT is an 8 % dividend with a 50% plus rise in 3 and 5 year chart. The total return was 107% to 167%.
3, and 5 year PBT is a 6 % dividend, with a 30 % and 45% rise in 3 and 5 year charts.


Man ---- You guys are some serious INVESTORS!! :bow: :bow: :woot:


Okay --- Oil Royalty Trusts -- of which there are many -- and really "land leases" -- where the trust owns the mineral rights -- and they generate cash and spin that off to the "investors" in the trust. They are GIANT CASH COWS when oil prices are high!!

Now here's the tricky part. Nobody really knows how much oil is there - and how long it will be flowing - and at what rate - and at what cost to lift - and what the market price will be.

BPT is an OLDER trust - pumping some 20 years.... So ask yourself -- do they have 100 years of oil left? Do they run dry next week? RISKY -- you bet. Remember what you get with RISK?? Higher "rewards" thus the high dividend - because all the stars are aligned! I own a similar trust -- Chesapeake Granite Wash Trust (CHKR)....

Like all of these things we discuss --- Each person needs to do their research --- and understand all of what they're getting into. Asking here for input is okay --- and should be done -- but remember! They're just OPINIONS... and what is appropriate for me to invest in - may not be suitable for someone with 10,000 or (name an amount). These things all depend on age - $$ - use... and blah blah blah.

[GregWeld]

Greg, welcome back.:cheers:

Yes, when i buy into something that i think is down, it sure can go down more, before it goes up past your buy point..

I just do the research, and then wait it out.. almost always there is a loss before the real gain happens, because i am not timing the bottom, no one can..

today was my first ride in my modified Muscle car, I had so much fun, i could explode...:lateral:


Flew home this afternoon -- figured I'd work on a re-cap during the flight -- I use GOGO INFLIGHT wifi connection... Get to 10,000 feet and go to log on -- and no gogo ---- seems Alaska Air has 4 planes with no GOGO --- and, of course, I'm on one!

[Bucketlist2012]

Man ---- You guys are some serious INVESTORS!! :bow: :bow: :woot:


Okay --- Oil Royalty Trusts -- of which there are many -- and really "land leases" -- where the trust owns the mineral rights -- and they generate cash and spin that off to the "investors" in the trust. They are GIANT CASH COWS when oil prices are high!!

Now here's the tricky part. Nobody really knows how much oil is there - and how long it will be flowing - and at what rate - and at what cost to lift - and what the market price will be.

BPT is an OLDER trust - pumping some 20 years.... So ask yourself -- do they have 100 years of oil left? Do they run dry next week? RISKY -- you bet. Remember what you get with RISK?? Higher "rewards" thus the high dividend - because all the stars are aligned! I own a similar trust -- Chesapeake Granite Wash Trust (CHKR)....

Like all of these things we discuss --- Each person needs to do their research --- and understand all of what they're getting into. Asking here for input is okay --- and should be done -- but remember! They're just OPINIONS... and what is appropriate for me to invest in - may not be suitable for someone with 10,000 or (name an amount). These things all depend on age - $$ - use... and blah blah blah.

Greg,Thanks.:cheers:

Oh ya, I am as serious as can be when it comes to Investing. That is what I live on.

And I just have a passion for it...Did I mention that I made my new KDW's as sticky as can be today ?

One quick thing.. I am starting a shift from being the lender, bonds/fixed income, and going to being the owner,stocks, not by much, but I see a shift and do I want to be the lender, that they promise to pay me back, aka europe, ect.., or do iIwant to own more, and be an owner/dividends ??? I think the owner... I feel that the promise to pay me back is getting thin all over the world...

People think fixed income and bonds are safe...hmmmm.....maybe they are not..

And again, I am riskier in PM's, and Oil, so although I share with you, I don't recommend it to the masses. I do it with my money.

But thanks for the kudo's...I will be trying to research and step up my Game with my posts..

Took me a long time to start chiming in..

Last thing..I don't really look at my total balance..it may go up and down due to some of my plays..

I am concerned with income stream, and the dividends..A certain asset i own may go down in balance, but it pays 6 to 14%. depending on the asset, but the point i guess, is that the dividend gets paid, and the income stream is there..

Also I am spread out , and some of these plays are very small in the mix..

I do believe that we are going to be spending in 2012..NO president ever gets re elected in a complete meltdown, and and we will be falsely propped up with government spending, because re election at all costs..and the dollar will continue to suffer..But that is only my opinion...

And my 2012 strategy...kinda the same as 2011, but with the bonds to stock shift of maybe 15 to 20 percent of the total blend...

[GregWeld]

Last thing..I don't really look at my total balance..it may go up and down due to some of my plays..

I am concerned with income stream, and the dividends..A certain asset i own may go down in balance, but it pays 6 to 14%. depending on the asset, but the point i guess, is that the dividend gets paid, and the income stream is there..

Also I am spread out , and some of these plays are very small in the mix..


See --- that's where you and I are exactly the same kind of investor :thumbsup: I look at the investment -- it goes up - it goes down... but what I look at is the dividend stream. If you invest $200,000 and it's paying you 5% per year in dividends - it's spinning off $10,000 a year in income... do I care if it's "down" $5,000 or even $20,000 temporarily? NOPE.... Own it over a 3 or 5 year period -- it's going to be UP and it will be kicking out that cash!

What I'm trying to get others to think about is that cash that you and I live on NOW -- is the same cash that will BUILD UP and buy more shares and snowball for everyone else. Either way - it's a win win.

[Bucketlist2012]

See --- that's where you and I are exactly the same kind of investor :thumbsup: I look at the investment -- it goes up - it goes down... but what I look at is the dividend stream. If you invest $200,000 and it's paying you 5% per year in dividends - it's spinning off $10,000 a year in income... do I care if it's "down" $5,000 or even $20,000 temporarily? NOPE.... Own it over a 3 or 5 year period -- it's going to be UP and it will be kicking out that cash!

What I'm trying to get others to think about is that cash that you and I live on NOW -- is the same cash that will BUILD UP and buy more shares and snowball for everyone else. Either way - it's a win win.

True.. Especially for those not needing the money for years...Why watch the balance ?? If you did the research, and bought the right stuff, over time...bingo...

So your point of research, buying, holding, not buying into the volatility, and the media noise.. Are all good to recap

Because if you and I are not worried about the fluctuations, others should not.. their money is going to work for a long time before they take an income stream..

Those 400 and 500 point swings in 2011 , would swing the balance so much that I cannot mention the amounts..

But in the end, my mix held strong, and I lived off the dividends.

I truly believe 2012 will be as volatile, and I reserve comment for 2013 until later..

But When the time is right, a recap for all the listeners please...

I love to hear opinion of those with money at work... I will never know enough..:cheers: :lateral: :woot:

[Tyler E]

After a few years of watching builds, a few weeks of reading this thread, Ive gotta say I'm a little nervous for my first post to be in investing. An area I, up until reading this thread, knew nothing about.

Anyway, is there an online calculator, or formula that would allow me to figure out:

If I invested $10,000 in say Kinder Morgan (KMP) 10 years ago, and reinvested the dividends, where would my money be sitting today, and if this steady eddie were to continue on its path, where would my money be in 10 years, 20 years? Roughly speaking.

Also, I want to thank everyone who has contributed. This thread is an eye opener. Your honesty and openess is very much appreciated.

[GregWeld]

After a few years of watching builds, a few weeks of reading this thread, Ive gotta say I'm a little nervous for my first post to be in investing. An area I, up until reading this thread, knew nothing about.

Anyway, is there an online calculator, or formula that would allow me to figure out:

If I invested $10,000 in say Kinder Morgan (KMP) 10 years ago, and reinvested the dividends, where would my money be sitting today, and if this steady eddie were to continue on its path, where would my money be in 10 years, 20 years? Roughly speaking.

Also, I want to thank everyone who has contributed. This thread is an eye opener. Your honesty and openess is very much appreciated.

Glad to hear you're getting something out of all this typing!!


I can't find a 10 year TOTAL RETURN figure -- but it was easy to do a 5 year -
so your 10 grand FIVE years ago -- would now be 16 grand. I'm thinking that the 10 grand 10 years ago would be 25,000+ easy.

That's where the TIME comes into play in investing... 10 becomes 20 becomes 40 becomes 80 becomes 160... so if you put the 10 grand away that you got from graduation instead of blowing it and going to Italy for a month :lol: by the time you're 60 years old that 10,000 is $160,000 Now at 60 you'd appreciate Italy even more and you could go for a couple months!

Now imagine if you would - that you were clever enough to save $10,000 at 20 years old and then added 5,000 a year every year until you were 40....

[Bucketlist2012]

After a few years of watching builds, a few weeks of reading this thread, Ive gotta say I'm a little nervous for my first post to be in investing. An area I, up until reading this thread, knew nothing about.

Anyway, is there an online calculator, or formula that would allow me to figure out:

If I invested $10,000 in say Kinder Morgan (KMP) 10 years ago, and reinvested the dividends, where would my money be sitting today, and if this steady eddie were to continue on its path, where would my money be in 10 years, 20 years? Roughly speaking.

Also, I want to thank everyone who has contributed. This thread is an eye opener. Your honesty and openess is very much appreciated.

Tyler, welcome.. you are doing something about your future..most don't..

if you get passionate about it, it will reward you.. guys like Greg don't need to share. it is a giving back sort of thing..

Remember that they want you to think it is voodoo, or brain surgery.. They do not want you to have wealth..they being the bankers, wall street, the US government..

They want you needy..well Tyler, you are on the path to be needy no more..

then you get to the point where it does not matter who is President, or the state of china's economy, or europe, or at some point, even a Job..

Well done on chiming in...We will learn together..:cheers: :lateral:

[GregWeld]

Alright Tyler E ---- Just for you I did a little work..... and found via Morningstar a 10 year total return calculator/chart thingy. :D

I was a bit off on my "guess" of what 10K in KMP 10 year ago would be today -- I guessed 25,000+

So drum roll...........


According to Morningstar -- it would be 62,000 today


Go to this link --- and then just above the "chart" hit the EXPAND tab.

http://performance.morningstar.com/stock/performance-return.action?t=KMP&region=USA&culture=en-us

[Bucketlist2012]

So Greg.

with the decision of the federal reserve to keep interest rates low for a year or more, and therefore continuing the crushing of the dollar by the government buying up treasuries, it seems like my commodity play of 2011, is going to be a win in 2012 due to their policies..

i see the government artificially inflating the economy and the markets, rather than to take the bitter pill now, or years ago.. especially in the election year.

The problem is, to buy now is even riskier than buying three years ago.. but there is money to be made in 2012..

we will take the pill someday ala 2008 type event , if we don't take our medicine now..

But the feds have given me the green light again, and i will take it..

just an observation:cheers: :woot:

[Bucketlist2012]

Alright Tyler E ---- Just for you I did a little work..... and found via Morningstar a 10 year total return calculator/chart thingy. :D

I was a bit off on my "guess" of what 10K in KMP 10 year ago would be today -- I guessed 25,000+

So drum roll...........


According to Morningstar -- it would be 62,000 today


Go to this link --- and then just above the "chart" hit the EXPAND tab.

http://performance.morningstar.com/stock/performance-return.action?t=KMP&region=USA&culture=en-us

Sometimes people think that they missed out on an opportunity because it has already gone up..

Some of my investments if you look back 10 years 10k would be 121k...but that did not stop me three years ago from buying them..

I knew that, or I believed they would continue to rise, so rather than wait or say i missed out, i got in, and let it build up...

I did not get the 10 year rise, but the three year is pretty good too..

[Tyler E]

$62,000 !!!!! Well, if that doesn't put a sh!t eating grin on your face.......

Solarguy, the passion has just went up, tenfold.

I would have never guessed that compounding would have increased my initial to that extent in such a short time.

My mutual fund guy told me I should be happy that I didnt lose money this year because of the market. I think his back end is going to meet the front end of my workboot!

I picked up, and am half way through, Peter Lynch's book "One up on Wall Street". Greg, are you friends with Lynch, because it appears you two think the same.

Again, THANK YOU Gregweld for spearheading this discussion.:bow:

For the Canucks on here, which discount investment house are you using? Its time to get rolling!

[GregWeld]

So Greg.

with the decision of the federal reserve to keep interest rates low for a year or more, and therefore continuing the crushing of the dollar by the government buying up treasuries, it seems like my commodity play of 2011, is going to be a win in 2012 due to their policies..

i see the government artificially inflating the economy and the markets, rather than to take the bitter pill now, or years ago.. especially in the election year.

The problem is, to buy now is even riskier than buying three years ago.. but there is money to be made in 2012..

we will take the pill someday ala 2008 type event , if we don't take our medicine now..

But the feds have given me the green light again, and i will take it..

just an observation:cheers: :woot:


I'm only going to comment on this as a general response to how "I" think... as it fits into this thread.

I'm not smart enough to be able to factor in exogenous events - and particularly - what may or may not happen in the future. Who is President of the U.S.A.... what China might do with their Yuan... Whether or not Canada builds a pipeline or sends their oil to China etc.

So that's why I just focus on companies I know - with great 5 or 10 year charts - with great TOTAL RETURNS - and as much dividend as I can get out of a sector using all of these historic factors. What that does for me is allows me to just invest - sit back and let the company management figure out the details and what THEY need to do for the best outcome for their company. IF they continue to do what they've been doing - I should come out okay.

So let's use this recent news about the big pipeline from Canada to somewhere in the US.... and now there's issues about sensitive land that it would have to cross etc. and blah blah blah.

I own two pipeline companies -- Kinder Morgan Partners (KMP) and Enbridge Energy Partners (EEP). I am going to have to ASSume that they are very on top of this whole thing - and most likely were knowledgable about it 10 years ago when it was first talked about... and how it affects their businesses going forward etc. This is THEIR business. I gotta trust that they're all over it.

Me? I have important things to worry about -- like where the next car show is going to be - and which car I'm going to take - and whether or not I got the dates right and made hotel reservations.

My PARTNERS (since - when you buy stocks - you own a piece of the company) will worry about that pipeline thingy. I trust them - that's why I put my money in their company.

What I will pay attention to is whether they continue to be the good managers that I thought they were. If the whole stock market is going down and the stock goes down with it - doesn't make them dumb. When the market turns around - and everything is going back up - their stock will go back up too. My job was to buy more of it when it was "on sale" (think Nordstroms half yearly sale). :unibrow:

[Bucketlist2012]

$62,000 !!!!! Well, if that doesn't put a sh!t eating grin on your face.......

Solarguy, the passion has just went up, tenfold.

I would have never guessed that compounding would have increased my initial to that extent in such a short time.

My mutual fund guy told me I should be happy that I didnt lose money this year because of the market. I think his back end is going to meet the front end of my workboot!

I picked up, and am half way through, Peter Lynch's book "One up on Wall Street". Greg, are you friends with Lynch, because it appears you two think the same.

Again, THANK YOU Gregweld for spearheading this discussion.:bow:

For the Canucks on here, which discount investment house are you using? Its time to get rolling!

Tyler... Compound Interest will blow your Mind.. And add to that , if you have no car Loans, or credit card debt, and my friend, it is to the moon with your money.

I won't cloud your visions with other funds that I have , but triple digit rises in 10 years have been achieved.

Some lost money, and some went up 12 times the initial investment.. So the average is good..

The lost Decade of 2001 to 2011 , did not happen to everyone... Only those asleep at the wheel..

But if you are paying NO interest, except a First mortgage only..A Fixed 15 or 30 year , depending on your point of view, at these historically low rates(4%), And you are investing and compounding over time....

Oh Man...Watch it happen...You won't see it right away, but several years later, and if you review your goals once, and maybe twice a year.

That is the ticket..

And read about Greg's "Bucket Theory".. Short, mid, and long term buckets...

Fundamentals; Diversity, Liquidity, Dollar Cost averaging in, no day trading, or listening to the day to day noise...Media, your Friends, co workers.

Read from those that have done it, and form your own theory..Because no matter what we say, it must be your studies and research that get you to make the decisions with YOUR money...

we can only give opinions..Sure true life stories to help motivate, and guide, but it is a constant passion and study that will get you there.

Mike V.


Good luck to you.. Remember Luck is the meeting of opportunity, and Preparation..

So, it is about studying, actions, and patience.

I saw my attorney the other day, and we talked about a few portfolio's that I am involved in , and He is attorney for.. He asked about the Investments and i told him that We all made money and were living off the Dividends, and we were still up , after all that... He just looked at me and smiled. he said in this economy, you MADE money ?? Oh ya...

The Guy is the Best Attorney around...He love the home loan rate i got, and my Investment Strategy...Makes me feel good..

Get Passionate....Stay that way for Life... Be humble.... you will make it happen:cheers: :lateral:

[GregWeld]

Sometimes people think that they missed out on an opportunity because it has already gone up..


When I'm showing someone how I invest -- I'll bring up this very fact. People say "well it's gone up a lot! So I can't buy it now - it's up too much"....

REALLY? Pull up a 10 year chart of the company (pick one) and say -- okay -- show me on this chart (as it's doubled or tripled over the last 10 years) when you would have bought... or as YOU'RE telling me -- that it was too high to buy... 'cause what that chart is telling me is that it's still going up and over time it will be higher than where it is right now. (We're not talking "hot stocks" here - were talking about our good long term high dividend payers -- NOT Netflix etc).

[Bucketlist2012]

When I'm showing someone how I invest -- I'll bring up this very fact. People say "well it's gone up a lot! So I can't buy it now - it's up too much"....

REALLY? Pull up a 10 year chart of the company (pick one) and say -- okay -- show me on this chart (as it's doubled or tripled over the last 10 years) when you would have bought... or as YOU'RE telling me -- that it was too high to buy... 'cause what that chart is telling me is that it's still going up and over time it will be higher than where it is right now. (We're not talking "hot stocks" here - were talking about our good long term high dividend payers -- NOT Netflix etc).

Good point. The fear of losing keep them from starting.. Yes, no netflicks, or groupon, ect...

I just don't get it, so i don't invest in it..Sure as it went to the moon, I was wondering about netflicks, but never bought, i could not see it in 10 years, and since i am not in and out, i just stayed out of that, and went with longer term assets..

[GregWeld]

It's why it's called INVESTING -- not GAMBLING.
:rofl:

[GregWeld]

This is "investing 102"..... <smiling here>

Altria (MO) is a nasty old "terbacky" company.... I don't smoke -- but the world smokes - china - asia in general - europe... they're all puffers....

I'm using this as an EXAMPLE of why I don't care about the "exogenous" events I was talking about in an earlier post today....


At what point did all the worlds PROBLEMS ( -- (Greek debt - Chinas inflation - USA debt etc - oil too high - oil too low - Iran's idiots rattling their sabers....)affect MY investment???

Total Return
1 Year
+24.7%

3 Year
+102.5%

5 Year
+91.5%

[Bucketlist2012]

This is "investing 102"..... <smiling here>

Altria (MO) is a nasty old "terbacky" company.... I don't smoke -- but the world smokes - china - asia in general - europe... they're all puffers....

I'm using this as an EXAMPLE of why I don't care about the "exogenous" events I was talking about in an earlier post today....


At what point did all the worlds PROBLEMS ( -- (Greek debt - Chinas inflation - USA debt etc - oil too high - oil too low - Iran's idiots rattling their sabers....)affect MY investment???

Total Return
1 Year
+24.7%

3 Year
+102.5%

5 Year
+91.5%


Well Done... :hail: That is why I am here...:thumbsup:

To learn more than to share... Again I have skills, but I am a Newbie...

And sometimes it shows.. Again I am Investing, and I am coming to find that I am speculating too... And sometimes although I have done good, I could have done GREAT. a wee bit of tail chasing:willy:

So back to school I go... :cheers: :lateral:

[GregWeld]

Pretty amazing huh?? I mean -- all the noise that's on the news -- the world is exploding -- the employment rate has gone crazy - houses are worth ZERO and here's Altria -- UP 91%

:woot: :cheers:

[Sieg]

After buying five dividend stocks in the last couple weeks I glanced (kid duty and late) at the Dow this morning and had a tiny newbie panic attack. Just checked my positions on the 100 block purchases and it's insignificant dollar amount compared to their average 5.1% dividend yield. :woot:

[Bucketlist2012]

Pretty amazing huh?? I mean -- all the noise that's on the news -- the world is exploding -- the employment rate has gone crazy - houses are worth ZERO and here's Altria -- UP 91%

:woot: :cheers:

tobacco and alcohol... Great plays... anytime, all over the world... Just even better now..

[Bucketlist2012]

After buying five dividend stocks in the last couple weeks I glanced (kid duty and late) at the Dow this morning and had a tiny newbie panic attack. Just checked my positions on the 100 block purchases and it's insignificant dollar amount compared to their average 5.1% dividend yield. :woot:

Boy...The nail just got hit on the head..

It is not about the balance, but the income stream, or for some , the re-invested dividend that will grow over time..

Seig... Great point... That is the noise we should not listen too...

they are like weathermen...they spend the whole damn day talking about up or down, or sideways... They beat the poor horse until he says stop it...

So you are track when you tune out the noise and don't worry about the bouncing ball..

Saw the day coming, everything down but treasuries, and no big deal...

Just another day.

But I am looking to adjust my strategies... Doing good is not doing Great, and i am looking to improve my skills and returns..:lateral:

[Sieg]

Boy...The nail just got hit on the head..

It is not about the balance, but the income stream, or for some , the re-invested dividend that will grow over time...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/advrider/rilla.gif


Then I had another panic attack when I checked my last filled order and noticed I forgot to check reinvest dividend. :D

That's a historic paradigm shift for this kid. :thumbsup:

:lateral:

[GregWeld]

After buying five dividend stocks in the last couple weeks I glanced (kid duty and late) at the Dow this morning and had a tiny newbie panic attack. Just checked my positions on the 100 block purchases and it's insignificant dollar amount compared to their average 5.1% dividend yield. :woot:

Good Post Sieg!

This is when -- I've said time after time -- after you buy and then when they're down and you're starting to second guess yourself -- go back and just revisit WHY you bought. Look at the 5 or 10 year chart -- check the 5 year total return - check that dividend percentage.... then INHALE and relax... If you did your homework -- and it's a name you know and understand and all those other things are correct... that's the best you can do. Ya bought LAST WEEK -- the little man said take it down - let's test Sieg's guts! Go back and look at the LONG TERM CHART.... low on the left high on the right? Is that time period a week? An hour? Or 5 YEARS. Relax.:cheers:

[Bucketlist2012]

Good Post Sieg!

This is when -- I've said time after time -- after you buy and then when they're down and you're starting to second guess yourself -- go back and just revisit WHY you bought. Look at the 5 or 10 year chart -- check the 5 year total return - check that dividend percentage.... then INHALE and relax... If you did your homework -- and it's a name you know and understand and all those other things are correct... that's the best you can do. Ya bought LAST WEEK -- the little man said take it down - let's test Sieg's guts! Go back and look at the LONG TERM CHART.... low on the left high on the right? Is that time period a week? An hour? Or 5 YEARS. Relax.:cheers:

The little man taking it down....No doubt..

My phrase to my wife has been, "they are shaking the trees really hard, seeing who will be strong and hang on".. That was during the mid year craziness. Those 400 to 500 point runs in 2011 will happen in 2012. stay the course..

The Trees will get shaken hard...now I know that there is a little man that we hate, doing the shaking...

I was telling my wife, I try to be like the Character Mel Gibson played in "We were soldiers "..

During the chaos, he just stands there calm as can be , as bullets wiss by, and he see's the problems, or what needs to be done, or not done, and Just calmly does it...

I love it...I try to be that calm guy in a crisis of any kind.. Even the market roller coaster.. At the end of a cycle, things are good... I fugetaboutit moment to moment..

[GregWeld]

So my personal trainer comes on Monday AM's --- and he tried to sweat out the Double Double and the Chocolate shake I had for Friday nights dinner..... 10 seconds after he left I was in the hot tub contemplating life... and came up with this analogy:



4 guys are playing a round of golf.... I'm on the tee -- and the usual banter (noise) starts.... We bet $1 per hole -- and $100 for the game...

A buddy says - "he can hit the hell out of the ball when he's on -- or it's 15 yards into the woods"

Another buddy... "that trap is out 250 yards - ya gotta drive that or lay up"

They're now in my head.... Do I try to pound the driver and punch it 275 on the carry -- or do I hit the 3 wood and lay up short of the traps....

Here's MY THOUGHT PROCESS..... I know to win the hole I "should" punch it past the trap... but I also know if my game isn't spot on - I tend to slice when I swing too hard... (gambling or risk taking!). I also know if I swing nicely and just lay up a 3 wood I'll be right down the middle and have an easy 8 iron to the green.... A nice 8 iron on the green - a two put and I par and win the hole. My Steady Eddy game!

This goes on for 18 holes (18 stocks).... I can try to kill it -- OR I can swing easy - play the game - ignore the ribbing (noise).... and MAYBE I can win 10 of the 18 holes AND the GAME ---- netting me $110

I could have tried to pound the ball and win all 18 holes and the game.... but then I might have sliced into the water and the woods -- and had a couple snowmen and a couple "double holes in one" (1 plus 1 ='s an 11 ---- LOL) and only won 7 holes and lost the game.

[Bucketlist2012]

So my personal trainer comes on Monday AM's --- and he tried to sweat out the Double Double and the Chocolate shake I had for Friday nights dinner..... 10 seconds after he left I was in the hot tub contemplating life... and came up with this analogy:



4 guys are playing a round of golf.... I'm on the tee -- and the usual banter (noise) starts.... We bet $1 per hole -- and $100 for the game...

A buddy says - "he can hit the hell out of the ball when he's on -- or it's 15 yards into the woods"

Another buddy... "that trap is out 250 yards - ya gotta drive that or lay up"

They're now in my head.... Do I try to pound the driver and punch it 275 on the carry -- or do I hit the 3 wood and lay up short of the traps....

Here's MY THOUGHT PROCESS..... I know to win the hole I "should" punch it past the trap... but I also know if my game isn't spot on - I tend to slice when I swing too hard... (gambling or risk taking!). I also know if I swing nicely and just lay up a 3 wood I'll be right down the middle and have an easy 8 iron to the green.... A nice 8 iron on the green - a two put and I par and win the hole. My Steady Eddy game!

This goes on for 18 holes (18 stocks).... I can try to kill it -- OR I can swing easy - play the game - ignore the ribbing (noise).... and MAYBE I can win 10 of the 18 holes AND the GAME ---- netting me $110

I could have tried to pound the ball and win all 18 holes and the game.... but then I might have sliced into the water and the woods -- and had a couple snowmen and a couple "double holes in one" (1 plus 1 ='s an 11 ---- LOL) and only won 7 holes and lost the game.

You know......I do not Golf at all, and your golfing lingo had me confused at first, as I read your post for the FIRST time....:willy:

When I got to the "using a 3 wood, and laying up before the traps", my gut said, "that is the answer"... Without even a breath, or second thought...:thumbsup:

I know I am somewhat on the right track..:cheers:

[Sieg]

G-Dub - For a guy that doesn't play much you have a pretty good grasp on the concept. You sand-bagging me? :unibrow:

[GregWeld]

G-Dub - For a guy that doesn't play much you have a pretty good grasp on the concept. You sand-bagging me? :unibrow:

:lol: :unibrow:

Sadly -- it was all metaphors! What I "know" - does not necessarily translate to the actual play. :willy:

[GregWeld]

A thought occurred to me this morning as I was shopping for some corporate bonds - that maybe people really don't understand the difference between Muni bonds - corporate bonds - and stocks and how it affects your taxes.

So here we go:

Stocks: You're investing in the company - so think of it as you're becoming an owner. Some stocks share their profits with the owners in the form of a dividend. QUALIFIED DIVIDENDS (please note that term - it's important) are currently taxed at a maximum rate of 15%

Corporate Bonds: These are basically a corporation BORROWING money at a rate they state - and a maturity date they state. Example - Goldman Sachs (GS) issued bonds recently paying 5.75% with a maturity date of 1/2022 -- so it's a 10 year bond @ 5.75%. When you buy these -- you are a LENDER - and as such you collect INTEREST - Interest is taxed at your ordinary tax rate. These should be bought inside your IRA/ROTH/401 unless you're living off the income and are willing to pay ordinary income tax on the earnings (as I do).


MUNI BONDS: Short for MUNICIPAL BONDS. These are issued by County - State - City - School Districts etc. They are - IN MOST CASES - tax free. As such the interest rate is lower. You are a lender to that entity - you collect interest payments (generally every 6 months). The bonds have a face value and a maturity date. You'll get the interest until the maturity date at which time you'll get your capital back. They're backed by the "full faith and credit of the issuing entity"... in other words - some form of government - this is why they're considered "safe".

[Bucketlist2012]

A thought occurred to me this morning as I was shopping for some corporate bonds - that maybe people really don't understand the difference between Muni bonds - corporate bonds - and stocks and how it affects your taxes.

So here we go:

Stocks: You're investing in the company - so think of it as you're becoming an owner. Some stocks share their profits with the owners in the form of a dividend. QUALIFIED DIVIDENDS (please note that term - it's important) are currently taxed at a maximum rate of 15%

Corporate Bonds: These are basically a corporation BORROWING money at a rate they state - and a maturity date they state. Example - Goldman Sachs (GS) issued bonds recently paying 5.75% with a maturity date of 1/2022 -- so it's a 10 year bond @ 5.75%. When you buy these -- you are a LENDER - and as such you collect INTEREST - Interest is taxed at your ordinary tax rate. These should be bought inside your IRA/ROTH/401 unless you're living off the income and are willing to pay ordinary income tax on the earnings (as I do).


MUNI BONDS: Short for MUNICIPAL BONDS. These are issued by County - State - City - School Districts etc. They are - IN MOST CASES - tax free. As such the interest rate is lower. You are a lender to that entity - you collect interest payments (generally every 6 months). The bonds have a face value and a maturity date. You'll get the interest until the maturity date at which time you'll get your capital back. They're backed by the "full faith and credit of the issuing entity"... in other words - some form of government - this is why they're considered "safe".

Simply stated, and clear to understand. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Okay -- so STEP TWO of this is to explain how these "work".


Stocks go up and down depending on how many people want to BUY vs how many people want to SELL...

Corporate BONDS and MUNI BONDS pay a fixed rate - so to the BORROWER - they're paying the issued rate - let's just use 10%.

If you bought a 1,000 bond paying 10% and you bought at PAR... then you paid 1,000 and you're going to get 10% interest. But lets say interest rates are RISING..... and the "market" is at 12% -- your bond is going to have to be DISCOUNTED until the yield is equal to 12%. Remember - the borrower is only paying 10%.... so if you want to sell your 10% bond -- the new buyer needs to pay you less in order to "yield" the currently higher market rate of 12%.

If you held your bond to maturity - you're going to just get your 10% and then get all your money back. But if you chose to sell it in a rising interest rate market - you'd lose money. The REVERSE is true in a falling interest rate environment. If market rates fell to 5% - you're bond might be worth TWICE as much as you paid!

Remember that bonds have MATURITY DATES -- it's the combination of what that date is - sooner or later - and the rate it pays - that determines it's "price" (value) on any given day.

[lmnop]

Hi Greg
Thanks again for all the info. I have a rookie question for you that may have covered already. When you talk about the interest on a corporate bond of 10% it is paid annually correct? And then you get your initial investment back on the maturity date? And is this the same for Muni bonds? On a side note I have a mutual bond story when I was 21 I had 18k invested in a tax free account. I am now 38 that mutual bond is now worth 21k and some change. That is why I have stayed away from the stock market; I figured if the “pro” heading up the mutual fund can’t get it right what hope do I have.
Ray

[GregWeld]

I wish we had a "crying" icon --- I'd start with that for you....

Corporates and Munis generally pay interest every 6 months... and YES -- on the maturity date (or before) you get your capital back. When I say "BEFORE" - most bonds are "callable"... so at some date the issuer can "call" your bond and cash you out. Sort of like if you re-fi your house - you pay off the high interest note and re-fi it with a lower interest. I've had bonds called away before. A couple times -- they've paid more than the face value... but then you give up your high interest rate and now have to buy something else that's paying the current lower rate... but that's the way these things work.

Mutual Funds equal a jackass throwing darts at a dart board.... it takes hardly any work to beat their performance - because you can AIM -- and they just buy "stuff" that fits their predetermined scope... There are good ones -- but most are just so friggn' ho hum that they do more harm than good.

By the way - you state your MF was in a "tax free account".... by that I think you mean that it is in a TAX DEFERRED account such as an IRA/401? These accounts have no taxes due UNTIL you start to withdraw...






Hi Greg
Thanks again for all the info. I have a rookie question for you that may have covered already. When you talk about the interest on a corporate bond of 10% it is paid annually correct? And then you get your initial investment back on the maturity date? And is this the same for Muni bonds? On a side note I have a mutual bond story when I was 21 I had 18k invested in a tax free account. I am now 38 that mutual bond is now worth 21k and some change. That is why I have stayed away from the stock market; I figured if the “pro” heading up the mutual fund can’t get it right what hope do I have.
Ray

[GregWeld]

Imnop -----


Had you just put all your money into COKE (KO) == not the kind you push up your nose.... just FIVE YEARS AGO -- you'd have a 63% return... so you'd have around 30 grand now -- and that's if you'd have just done this 5 lousy years ago.

17 years ago - KO traded at $20 a share - and it split two for 1 in 1996... so you'd have TWICE as many shares and it's now trading at $60

So 18 grand (900 shares) - 17 years ago you would now own 1800 shares of KO worth $108,000

[lmnop]

Hey Greg
Thanks for the reply and the sympathy. You are right it is a tax differed account; although it has made so little money the tax is not a consideration. I read a couple of books about saving/investing when I was in my late teens and one mentioned if you save $1000 a year from age 20 to 40 and then stopped you would be way ahead rather than saving double the amount from age 40 to 60 or something like that. So I figured I would get ahead of the game and save $20k by age 20. I was a mechanic working in a mine and I saved money pretty quick. Every time I put money in the fund seemed to drop but I wasn’t worried as I believed in the long term magic I read about. Well I am still waiting for the magic. I have been jaded towards investing ever since. I felt like I did everything right and it didn’t pay off. Thanks to this thread I feel inspired to take another look at it. At minimum I need to re-invest and get rid of the useless mutual fund.
Ray

[GregWeld]

Sieg ---

Compare TransCanada Corp (TRP) to Calumet Specialty Partners (CLMT).... do a 5 year chart -- and you'll see what I was saying to you via PM.



To include "others" here as an Investing 102 "thought process" -- as I recommend nothing - only how I look at things...

CLMT -- is in the "oil chemicals biz" -- and TRP is a canadian pipeline (the one that's been in the news lately)... and what I was saying is that while CLMT pays a very high dividend (9%+) --- it has a terrible 5 year chart. When I say "terrible" -- what I see is -- they went down with the "market" in the 07/08 "great recession"..... but they DID NOT come "back" with the market (09 to present).... One of the "nice chart" things I want to see is whether or not a company was down with the market and are they also UP with the market... but if they went down and stayed down -- that's not a good sign, therefore not something I want to own. That -- and this is not a business I understand nor do I understand their competitors etc. So PERSONALLY I wouldn't take the big dividend as a "good thing"... rather, it would scare me. Remember -- pigs get fat - hogs get slaughtered. I want the good chart - with the growth - AND - the good/decent/nice/healthy dividend.

Dividend % is only ONE COMPONENT.... if you get a big dividend but the stock goes down 40%... that's not a good combo. If you get a decent dividend and some growth (8/9/10% + per year) now you're making money!

You want GROWTH in your money -- TOTAL RETURN -- That is the key.... you can get that in different combinations of dividends and growth of capital. Big growth - small dividend -- big dividend with steady eddy growth -- or decent dividend and decent growth... the key is to try to find some balance... and there's just too many companies out there that will give you these - without "settling" for something that lacks all the magic numbers. We need to be firing on all cylinders!

[GregWeld]

Ray -- # 1 congratulations on doing HALF your job... the savings early part! But you slacker :D -- you then promptly ignored MAKING YOUR MONEY WORK FOR YOU. No days off -- no sick pay... You need to pay a bit of attention to your money or they (I pretend every dollar is one employee!) walk off the job when you're not looking.

This is not to say you start to become a micro manager! It means that you need to pay attention and if you're guys are slacking - you need to do a bit of work yourself and see if you can't' get some of those guys "retrained" or "redeployed".

Go back and read from page one -- that's your homework assignment... and see if you can get reengaged and make that dream come back to life! It's not too late. :lateral: :cheers: :woot:



Hey Greg
Thanks for the reply and the sympathy. You are right it is a tax differed account; although it has made so little money the tax is not a consideration. I read a couple of books about saving/investing when I was in my late teens and one mentioned if you save $1000 a year from age 20 to 40 and then stopped you would be way ahead rather than saving double the amount from age 40 to 60 or something like that. So I figured I would get ahead of the game and save $20k by age 20. I was a mechanic working in a mine and I saved money pretty quick. Every time I put money in the fund seemed to drop but I wasn’t worried as I believed in the long term magic I read about. Well I am still waiting for the magic. I have been jaded towards investing ever since. I felt like I did everything right and it didn’t pay off. Thanks to this thread I feel inspired to take another look at it. At minimum I need to re-invest and get rid of the useless mutual fund.
Ray

[RECOVERY ROOM]

Makes good sense to me :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Bucketlist2012]

So I just thought I would share something to motivate the crowd...

One of my things is to see how things are going with my money over coffee.

The Total balance does not really matter, although we all want it to be going up..It always does, but sometimes it takes large Temporary hits.

But I just love when i wake up before dawn to make coffee, and when i check the account activity, A bunch of my assets have deposited Dividends into my account overnight as I slept...

It all gets reinvested.. But a bunch of money, as i slept...

But first you must manage your money, i.e. credit debt and consumer debt, save the money to put to work, i.e. live within your means, work smart and hard, and some sacrifice and boring unflashyness, i. e. no new car loan every 3 years to look cool.

Then the money that you put to work, is really working for you....While you sleep..

I used to dream of this as a kid believe it or not...Success was on my mind at an early age..

Life, a drug addiction, and a divorce, threw me off my game for years, but i always turned the boat into the wind and at an angle over the waves in the storm..

And now words like portfolio, net worth, money management/budgeting, dividends, yield, ROI, disposable income, and passive income, i.e. the overnight dividends, are always on my mind..

Because the wolf is always at the door...

I appreciate all the insight Greg and others share. I will do my part to share without straying from the CORE of the thread. Investing 102..

Mike V :cheers: :lateral:

[sik68]

I was channel surfing last night, and wound up watching Cramer...he was interviewing a board member of Dominion (D), an energy production & distribution company. The two talked a lot about providing energy for the exponentially growing data center industry. Cramer wrapped up the segment with "this is the energy provider to own."

Greg, looking at the 10 year (+66%) and Dividend (4.22%), something that would get your blessing?

[LS1-IROC]

Thanks to Greg and some of the other knowledgeable guys, I'm meeting with Chuck tomorrow to get into the game!:thumbsup:

Time to get these slacker employees I have in savings to back to work:lol:

[Bucketlist2012]

Thanks to Greg and some of the other knowledgeable guys, I'm meeting with Chuck tomorrow to get into the game!:thumbsup:

Time to get these slacker employees I have in savings to back to work:lol:

Good job... You will be surprised if you keep your debt( consumer debt interest) low, and your hard earned money to work..

Time, and the right moves, will over time, blow your mind...

Yes the wrong moves suck, but you can minimize the losses with the right strategy and funds that are strong tested long term assets as Greg mentions..

I have 10 % of my money in a company 401K just because they match 10% , and i take the free money by matching it..

But 90% of it , is in a Schwab account that is not controlled by the 401K people...Much better deal for me anyways.

But as Greg mentioned before, TAXES, and each person's DIFFERENT situation, means more homework to come up with an indivdualized plan...

But I am 52...For those much younger....You want to be as Fortunate as Greg ??? Start early and get passionate..


OMG...I just sounded like ,Tommy Vu...:cheers: :lateral:

[GregWeld]

I was channel surfing last night, and wound up watching Cramer...he was interviewing a board member of Dominion (D), an energy production & distribution company. The two talked a lot about providing energy for the exponentially growing data center industry. Cramer wrapped up the segment with "this is the energy provider to own."

Greg, looking at the 10 year (+66%) and Dividend (4.22%), something that would get your blessing?


Yeah buddy:woot: -- ya got GROWTH and a very nice dividend... I don't own this one - I own Con Edison (ED) and this is like the "COKE VS PEPSI" debate -- own either one or both... Good for you watching and listening and then DOING YOUR HOMEWORK.:thumbsup:

Think about these "utilities".... everybody has to pay their power bill every month... buy the best of breed and kick back. They bring stability to your account -- a nice dividend and decent growth... all the things we're looking for.

[bdahlg68]

For any Fidelity 401k people that want to avoid mutual funds, see if you are able to sign up for Brokeragelink and put your investments into that. Brokeragelink allows you to invest in the market like any other account and not be stuck with the mutual funds allowed by your plan.

[GregWeld]

Thanks to Greg and some of the other knowledgeable guys, I'm meeting with Chuck tomorrow to get into the game!:thumbsup:

Time to get these slacker employees I have in savings to back to work:lol:


I hope RAY chimes in here --- I'd love to know what Mutual Fund he was in just so I could check it out - and that he doesn't take my "slacker" comment as a personal attack -- it was meant to be funny - like guys hanging out in the shop... busting each others chops.

I really do think of my money as one dollar is one employee... My job is to manage my employees. They don't need to be super stars - they just need to be always doing the best job for me that they can. And I have different "divisions" for them to work in. The "accountants" are boring steady eddy guys - Then there's the sales team (higher risk) - etc. Some times I have to just flat fire some of them.... and some times some of them need "re-training" (rebalancing)...

[GregWeld]

Along the lines that Solar was mentioning -- since it's the first of the month -- I wake up to some TAX FREE MUNI payments... So let me explain a little bit about this --- Tax free bonds pay all 'over the place' -- so when you have a bunch of them you're always getting "something" generally around the 1st or the 15th of the month. There are TWO periods in the year when I get really really nice payments --- June and December... the rest of the time it amounts to a few thousand per month.. but June and December is a happy place. :rofl:

Dividends will pay like this as well.... you go along and nothing - more nothing and then BAM! In they come. The more stocks you own - the more spread out they become. Different "quarters" - different pay dates - different "EX" dates. But once the STREAM starts (takes at least 6 months) then it seems you're getting something all the time.

I've got a sizable amount of shares (25,000) in Annaly Capital Management (NLY) and January 26th I got a dividend of $14,250. I mention this because this is what you're after.... Think about that -- I get that 4 times a year. I don't care who you are - that's like free money! :D

Here's the INTEREST (TAX FREE) I got just today (being the 1st).

02/01/12

Cash
DIVIDEND RECEIVED
AMEREN ILL CO PFD 4.92% AILLM


$738.00 USD


02/01/12

Cash
MUNI EXEMPT INT
WALLA WALLA WASH WTR & WASTEWTR REV REF 03.87500% 08/01/2017 BDS SER. 2005 932238BY3


$968.75 USD


02/01/12

Cash
DIVIDEND RECEIVED
WASHINGTON GAS LT CO PFD $4.80 WGLCO


$690.00 USD


02/01/12

Cash
DIVIDEND RECEIVED
WISCONSIN PUB SVC CP PFD 5% WIPSO


$693.75 USD

[GregWeld]

So to continue on that line of thinking -- and remember -- I'm sharing personal information here because I want those of you that haven't gotten a taste for what savings can do for you -- I want you to SEE... this is REAL... and that you too can do this!

Here's a ETF (exchange traded fund - so similar to a mutual fund) that holds high yielding CORPORATE bonds. This pays MONTHLY... and I use it to "park" cash - so it goes up and down - and obviously so do the dividends. But think abut this if you're retired and you're getting these dividends every month... so let's see if I can "copy and past" from Schwab...

Look at the dates and see that this bad boy (this is not recommending it for ANYONE - this is just ONE example) pays way better than a slot machine. :faint:

THIS IS THE POWER OF DIVIDENDS! That's what I'm trying to show you here.


01/04/2012 HYG ISHARES TRUST IBOXX $ HIGH YIELD CORP
type: CASH DIV
$1,871.51

12/07/2011 HYG ISHARES TRUST IBOXX $ HIGH YIELD CORP
type: ORD DIV - CASH
$1,921.54

11/07/2011 HYG ISHARES TRUST IBOXX $ HIGH YIELD CORP
type: ORD DIV - CASH
$1,841.88

10/07/2011 HYG ISHARES TRUST IBOXX $ HIGH YIELD CORP
type: ORD DIV - CASH
$1,883.93

09/08/2011 HYG ISHARES TRUST IBOXX $ HIGH YIELD CORP
type: ORD DIV - CASH
$1,971.75

06/07/2011 HYG ISHARES TRUST IBOXX $ HIGH YIELD CORP
type: ORD DIV - CASH
$3,394.24

05/06/2011 HYG ISHARES TRUST IBOXX $ HIGH YIELD CORP
type: ORD DIV - CASH
$2,291.79

04/07/2011 HYG ISHARES TRUST IBOXX $ HIGH YIELD CORP
type: ORD DIV - CASH
$2,278.48

03/07/2011 HYG ISHARES TRUST IBOXX $ HIGH YIELD CORP
type: ORD DIV - CASH
$1,157.45

[Sieg]

I've got a sizable amount of shares (25,000) in Annaly Capital Management (NLY) and January 26th I got a dividend of $14,250. I mention this because this is what you're after.... Think about that -- I get that 4 times a year. I don't care who you are - that's like free money! :D
I like that style of "high-risk" in my portfolio! :rofl: :rofl:

[lmnop]

Ray -- # 1 congratulations on doing HALF your job... the savings early part! But you slacker :D -- you then promptly ignored MAKING YOUR MONEY WORK FOR YOU. No days off -- no sick pay... You need to pay a bit of attention to your money or they (I pretend every dollar is one employee!) walk off the job when you're not looking.

This is not to say you start to become a micro manager! It means that you need to pay attention and if you're guys are slacking - you need to do a bit of work yourself and see if you can't' get some of those guys "retrained" or "redeployed".

Go back and read from page one -- that's your homework assignment... and see if you can get reengaged and make that dream come back to life! It's not too late. :lateral: :cheers: :woot:

Your right I am a slacker and my employes are following my lead. I am going to take charge of those lazy b*******. I did the assigned homework. And I wish some had explained to me how crappy mutual funds are before I bought them. But better late than never. I am going to do some research and pick some stocks. I was thinking I would divided the 21k into 4 or 8 so either $5250 or $2625 per company. How would you divide the money? The dream is still alive.
Also I took the "slacker" comment as it was intended, I enjoy the casual feel to this thread I feel like I am hanging out with buddies in the shop.
Thanks Greg!

[Sieg]

Don't feel bad Ray, I'm negligent too and we're not alone. That's the beauty of this thread, it is motivating people to take action and make changes and there not in the brokers best interest.............there in ours! :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Your right I am a slacker and my employes are following my lead. I am going to take charge of those lazy b*******. I did the assigned homework. And I wish some had explained to me how crappy mutual funds are before I bought them. But better late than never. I am going to do some research and pick some stocks. I was thinking I would divided the 21k into 4 or 8 so either $5250 or $2625 per company. How would you divide the money? The dream is still alive.
Also I took the "slacker" comment as it was intended, I enjoy the casual feel to this thread I feel like I am hanging out with buddies in the shop.
Thanks Greg!


Good to hear Ray!

Personally -- I'd divide the 21K into 8 to 10 different stocks... and if you want help picking -- then post what you're thinking up here and we'll roll 'em around. With this amount you can get some diversity with sectors and have just a bit of higher risk in order to boost your overall return... balancing out some of the safer lower dividend payers.... but with 20K invested - you should be able to MAKE over $1000 per year... and reinvested -- in 5 years you're going to have capital growth AND more shares paying more dividends and you'll be making the snowball into a snowman!

IF you want to, that is.

:cheers:

[GregWeld]

I like that style of "high-risk" in my portfolio! :rofl: :rofl:

Me too!

I use JNK and HYG and NLY as my 'balance' in one stock account to bring the overall dividend payout UP... from the lower payouts of the Coke and JNJ etc. BUT --- Don't mistake that for being greedy -- they are VERY SMALL percentages of my overall invested dollars --- and I have a quite healthy MUNI BOND portfolio that is "super safe"... But also major boring and notoriously low yield.

Remember -- MUNI BONDS like that are bought for blue haired old ladies (me) and have an income stream that is tax free -- but for that safety and yield -- you'll GET ZERO GROWTH in your capital! I can "trade them" -- every one of mine has a face value above where I bought them -- but then that's not why I bought them. I bought them to have a safe income stream that is tax free... so that's what I'll stick to.

[Blake Foster]

Just hired another bunch of Employees and have contracted to add the same number every month going forward. Bastards better work!!!

I just had a meeting with my guy , transfered all the wifes -2% return last year to my guy who gave me 20.7% last year. actually he said i had the 4th highest performing account at their firm last year obviously as a precentage not cold hard bucks. to bad there wasn't millions in the account. My compound anual return since 2001 has been 10.5% and the total return from 2001 has been 176%
so I don't think I will change much lol

[GregWeld]

Just hired another bunch of Employees and have contracted to add the same number every month going forward. Bastards better work!!!

I just had a meeting with my guy , transfered all the wifes -2% return last year to my guy who gave me 20.7% last year. actually he said i had the 4th highest performing account at their firm last year obviously as a precentage not cold hard bucks. to bad there wasn't millions in the account. My compound anual return since 2001 has been 10.5% and the total return from 2001 has been 176%
so I don't think I will change much lol

AWESOME!!!

Fantastic total return! That's how it's done right there buddy!

I will give Anita major grief for being such a slacker manager!

[Bucketlist2012]

Just hired another bunch of Employees and have contracted to add the same number every month going forward. Bastards better work!!!

I just had a meeting with my guy , transfered all the wifes -2% return last year to my guy who gave me 20.7% last year. actually he said i had the 4th highest performing account at their firm last year obviously as a precentage not cold hard bucks. to bad there wasn't millions in the account. My compound anual return since 2001 has been 10.5% and the total return from 2001 has been 176%
so I don't think I will change much lol


Great Job... I hired some more Killer employees the other day..Added to some i already had. They are hard workers.

You have done well..:cheers:

Oh, and do you work for speed tech ?

[GregWeld]

Great Job... I hired some more Killer employees the other day..Added to some i already had. They are hard workers.

You have done well..:cheers:

Oh, and do you work for speed tech ?



No -- he's the lazy ass owner.... EH!

:D

[Blake Foster]

No -- he's the lazy ass owner.... EH!

:D

LMAO i am getting all my EMPLOYEES to do the heavy lifting

[Bucketlist2012]

No -- he's the lazy ass owner.... EH!

:D

The owner ... Well I don't want to highjack the thread , by my investments paid for speed tech coil overs and other goodies.. the car has never handled so good.:woot: .Really Nice, but I digress...:willy: Sorry...

I did do some housecleaning, and adding... I think 2012 will be a great year for some..:cheers:

[Sieg]

my investments paid for speed tech coil overs and other goodies.. the car has never handled so good.:woot: .Really Nice, but I digress...:willy: Sorry... My twist on this - Comfortably funding our car habits is somewhat the common objective and goal of the thread.

That said, Greg's advice hasn't exactly helped Blake and SpeedTech since I've had this little Devil on my shoulder for a year or so that kept urging me to buy their Track Time package........but now a good portion of that play money is positioned to return a current average of 5.13% in annual dividends. :unibrow:

No worries Blake it will come your way, you've earned my business when the time is right. Until then I'll do my best to promote SpeedTech in my little backwoods network. :thumbsup:

Without a doubt this is the best thread I've ever participated in. :bow: :lateral:

[GregWeld]

My twist on this - Comfortably funding our car habits is somewhat the common objective and goal of the thread.

That said, Greg's advice hasn't exactly helped Blake and SpeedTech since I've had this little Devil on my shoulder for a year or so that kept urging me to buy their Track Time package........but now a good portion of that play money is positioned to return a current average of 5.13% in annual dividends. :unibrow:

No worries Blake it will come your way, you've earned my business when the time is right. Until then I'll do my best to promote SpeedTech in my little backwoods network. :thumbsup:

Without a doubt this is the best thread I've ever participated in. :bow: :lateral:

But ===== maybe you'll have so many capital gains that when you do buy - you'll get his new floater rear end set up in addition to the Track Time package -- so then he'll be as happy as a little Canuck could be!!:cheers: :woot:

[Bucketlist2012]

My twist on this - Comfortably funding our car habits is somewhat the common objective and goal of the thread.

That said, Greg's advice hasn't exactly helped Blake and SpeedTech since I've had this little Devil on my shoulder for a year or so that kept urging me to buy their Track Time package........but now a good portion of that play money is positioned to return a current average of 5.13% in annual dividends. :unibrow:

No worries Blake it will come your way, you've earned my business when the time is right. Until then I'll do my best to promote SpeedTech in my little backwoods network. :thumbsup:

Without a doubt this is the best thread I've ever participated in. :bow: :lateral:


I feel you, and I had to shut the little guy up on my shoulder..

Sure that 30K I just spent on a Sunday toy could be making me more money, but I have to enjoy some while I can.

First off, I have medical issues, so dying with a large Portfolio is going to suck, but I will never spend myself into the poor house, so money will be left after I am gone, and two, I have projected my Portfolio out to 85, and I am 52 now, so the spending is all good, and disposable money.

But I do feel you...Money sitting in the garage is not working..

But since I can get at least 30K for my car, and more, I did not lose money..:cheers:

[Sieg]

Just ran a conservative scenario in the Schwab's retirement planner without my wifes current income or retirement, factoring retirement age of 65, life expectancy of 80..........it's projecting a surplus of $439,000. Didn't factor inexpected emergencies, though there's other assets and revenue that aren't factored. I'll definitely sleep a little better tonight. ;) :woot:

[CRCRFT78]

Greg, what's your take on the Facebook IPO? I don't want to get off topic but is that something a newbie should consider buying given the recent expectations of the company? Would parking say $2000 in Facebook be a good idea. I know you've explained that good growth and a decent dividend are key but how should we approach IPO as investors?

[CRCRFT78]

I guess what I'm wondering is if IPOs are an investment we should consider or are they a lot of hype. Would waiting for the dust to settle be a wiser decision?

[Bucketlist2012]

Just ran a conservative scenario in the Schwab's retirement planner without my wifes current income or retirement, factoring retirement age of 65, life expectancy of 80..........it's projecting a surplus of $439,000. Didn't factor inexpected emergencies, though there's other assets and revenue that aren't factored. I'll definitely sleep a little better tonight. ;) :woot:

Congrats.:woot: Knowing the numbers is so important..

Yes, I never run my Wife's income or Social Security in my projections. Just me..

Also I never include my Home Equity. I do count it in my NET worth, but not for future living expenses..

That way I am excluding approx 300K of non liquid assets from my projection.
So we have that money for assisted living if ness.. later in life...or for whatever.

Seig, it really helps to run the numbers once a year. Also to calculate your NET worth to see where you are at..

Then once a year revisit to see if you are up or down... :lateral: :cheers:

[Bucketlist2012]

I guess what I'm wondering is if IPOs are an investment we should consider or are they a lot of hype. Would waiting for the dust to settle be a wiser decision?

Being the newbie, I wonder what Greg will say..

For me, I don't understand it, I don't get the value in it, and seems more speculation than anything..And if I am going to speculate, it will be in PM's and Commodities.

But again, I don't do facebook , so I won't buy it, and I am a newbie..

My Wife was asking about it today, I said pass..

The other good thing is that my Wife and I talk money all the time..We are passionate about it..

For a couple to talk about money together is very important for a marraige..


I know so many people in Financial trouble that never, ever talk about Money strategies, or plans for the future..Like they are frozen..because I know they care about it. They just won't do anything about it...Or WORSE, they do everything wrong to sabatoge the future. Those,including certain family, I have stopped helping. They will never learn.:cheers:

[CRCRFT78]

I only use Facebook as an example because they're the most current IPO that I know of. I'm wondering if its a wise move to jump aboard in the beginning and hope there is future growth along with a decent paying dividend for the long haul. The problem I see with something like a Facebook is that eventually another social media site will/may surpass it. Like what Facebook did to MySpace. But a good company with a solid background and business plan with an IPO might be a wiser choice. I guess its just the luck of the draw. No one knows what the next big thing will be or how to time the market.

[billscamaros]

[QUOTE=Sieg;393136]Just ran a conservative scenario in the Schwab's retirement planner without my wifes current income or retirement, factoring retirement age of 65, life expectancy of 80..........it's projecting a surplus of $439,000. ......QUOTE]

Out of curiousity, what's your thought process to determine the "surplus"? This is the way that I've looked at it ....

I'm 52, have a mortgage, one kid in college and two more to go.

I"ll work until at least 65.

I don't believe that anything in my current lifestyle will change drastically .... yeah, I'll get the kids thru college, but something else will come up.

So, my goal for my retirement income is to have it equal to my current income. That retirement income will be a combination of SS, pensions and interest/dividends from my retirement accounts.

Is that essentially the way you guys calculate your needs?

[Sieg]

I guess what I'm wondering is if IPOs are an investment we should consider or are they a lot of hype. Would waiting for the dust to settle be a wiser decision?

I've bought three that went bankrupt and two that have floundered. I found a decent article about FB and the hype yesterday. But haven't seen any indication of price, my guess is it's not going to be cheap.

[Bucketlist2012]

I only use Facebook as an example because they're the most current IPO that I know of. I'm wondering if its a wise move to jump aboard in the beginning and hope there is future growth along with a decent paying dividend for the long haul. The problem I see with something like a Facebook is that eventually another social media site will/may surpass it. Like what Facebook did to MySpace. But a good company with a solid background and business plan with an IPO might be a wiser choice. I guess its just the luck of the draw. No one knows what the next big thing will be or how to time the market.

Newbie here...I guess there is always arun up on some of these things, but it doesn't seem to be long term investing...More like you said, timing to get in..But then will you hold it long term ? Most of them do flounder, but someone made tons..

But I just stay out of that..:cheers:

[Bucketlist2012]

[QUOTE=Sieg;393136]Just ran a conservative scenario in the Schwab's retirement planner without my wifes current income or retirement, factoring retirement age of 65, life expectancy of 80..........it's projecting a surplus of $439,000. ......QUOTE]

Out of curiousity, what's your thought process to determine the "surplus"? This is the way that I've looked at it ....

I'm 52, have a mortgage, one kid in college and two more to go.

I"ll work until at least 65.

I don't believe that anything in my current lifestyle will change drastically .... yeah, I'll get the kids thru college, but something else will come up.

So, my goal for my retirement income is to have it equal to my current income. That retirement income will be a combination of SS, pensions and interest/dividends from my retirement accounts.

Is that essentially the way you guys calculate your needs?

Somewhat, but you also have that big variable....Health... That is an asset you must keep working on. Keep fit, Doctor's visits.. I know it sounds corny, but that variable has sunk more retirement plans than any other variable..

Some say you can make it on 80%, but i would project 100% income in retirement..

If you don't need it or spend it, reinvest it.

And good on keeping the HOME out of the income mix... That is another nest egg that should something happen, you have something there too..

The best laid plans can turn to poo, with one medical situation.. So stay safe and healthy, and good luck in your plans..:cheers:

[GregWeld]

Greg, what's your take on the Facebook IPO? I don't want to get off topic but is that something a newbie should consider buying given the recent expectations of the company? Would parking say $2000 in Facebook be a good idea. I know you've explained that good growth and a decent dividend are key but how should we approach IPO as investors?


Fantastic question.... and the answer is.... simple. It's gambling. I'm not against gambling --- provided -- that it's money you have set in the gambling bucket.

Most IPOs don't fare real well... that's the history... but when they go - they can make a guy rich. Just ask me how I know. :D

So how to play it. I have no idea what the right strategy will be on Facebook and I'm going to tell you right now - I made a sizable 7 figure deposit in cash yesterday in my Schwab account (the last of the sale of Isilon to EMC)... and I went to bed last night thinking about what "I" should do with this one. I'm not sure I want any part of it - and then the little man on my shoulder is saying "but Dude! What if it doubles and triples in the next three years?!?!?!"

So there is no right or wrong answer --- and the only thing I would say is that this is gambling in it's purest form. Ya plunk your money down and hope ya hit it right.

Now -- I will also add - since this is investing 102 -- that these kinds of "bets" are a good test of your intestinal fortitude. They will show you if you really think you can take risk. Everything is wonderful and the sun will shine if the stock keeps climbing -- but if 6 months out - it starts to fall... and every day you get up and you're dying the "death of a thousand cuts"... then you'll see if you can hold... because these kind of companies tend to have wild swings...

If you pull up a chart of GOOGLE (GOOG) or Chipotle Mexican Grill (CMG) and you look at those dips and the peaks... they're gut wrenching moves. Can you stand that and hold on long enough to live to talk about it and reap the reward... CMG went UP 200% and promptly fell back to even... before it took off and never looked back... Ask yourself when you would have bought and when you would have sold or hold... had you bought near the top would you have held on and watch your money go to half? Or? It's a question you can not answer - not until you're staring down the barrel of the pressure that can put on your mind.

So here's the only right answer.... only play with money you can truly afford to loose. That you just don't care about - it's not the money you were going to buy a new set of wheels with... it's not anything you're going to miss if it's gone. If you have that - then by all means - if you want to buy an IPO... go for it.

Now - if you're going to play - I'd suggest you buy HALF of what you think you can play with - sit back and see what happens - if it goes up buy a little more -- but I'd wait at LEAST for their first quarter report before committing new money. Maybe you'll miss some of the run up - but you'll have gotten some of it. But you'll also be happy and think you're pretty smart if it's gone down 40% - at which point you might want to take that other half and average down. It's BALANCE... try not to get knocked off balance. Try to curb the greed on the way up too... you'll thank yourself in the long run.

[Bucketlist2012]

Greg,

thanks for chiming in...Without you , on occasion setting the rudder, we can go off course..

Just wanted to say great advise on the gambling thing...I have small plays that are just that..heck, I have large plays that are that, but it is not money that I will need right away...Right away to me being 3 to 5 years... "Now" would be called my immediate cash, which is the only cash I have ,because those employees are slackers and just stand around doing nothing...your fired..:cheers:

But to my point of this post...When you said you just made a sizeable seven figure deposit into your account, I could feel my toes curl in my Slippers,haha.

Well Done... That was my whole NET worth, just deposited like nothing..

KUDOS..:cheers: I never envy or take things as bragging...More like the goal I want to achieve...

That is why I read this thread.And why I post some of my limited knowledge. To help if I can...Someone get independent and secure no matter what...Or for me, to take it to the next level...:lateral: :woot: :cheers:

[Blake Foster]

My twist on this - Comfortably funding our car habits is somewhat the common objective and goal of the thread.

That said, Greg's advice hasn't exactly helped Blake and SpeedTech since I've had this little Devil on my shoulder for a year or so that kept urging me to buy their Track Time package........but now a good portion of that play money is positioned to return a current average of 5.13% in annual dividends. :unibrow:

No worries Blake it will come your way, you've earned my business when the time is right. Until then I'll do my best to promote SpeedTech in my little backwoods network. :thumbsup:

Without a doubt this is the best thread I've ever participated in. :bow: :lateral:

See this investing thing REALLY does work!! :cheers: now everybody smarten up and start investing ......... and when those dividend cheques start to roll in .................. never mind.:_paranoid

[Sieg]

I guess what I'm wondering is if IPOs are an investment we should consider or are they a lot of hype. Would waiting for the dust to settle be a wiser decision?
I've bought three that went bankrupt and two that have floundered. I found a decent article about FB and the hype yesterday. But haven't seen any indication of price, my guess is it's not going to be cheap.

Here's the article, I thought it was a decent read...........
http://navelliergrowth.investorplace.com/blog/archive/2012/02/friend-facebook-ipo.html

[Bucketlist2012]

See this investing thing REALLY does work!! :cheers: now everybody smarten up and start investing ......... and when those dividend cheques start to roll in .................. never mind.:_paranoid

Everybody listen up...it does work...

So does the speed tech setup. We are racking the car after a hard round of tests...

All money made in the market, over time...:woot:

This thread is the best...It will only make me smarter...

And to those just getting started ?? This thread is something 10 years ago and more, you would NEVER get this info..

Now online, you get stats the bankers only had..

Greg is peeling back the curtain and giving you a tour of backstage...:hail: :cheers: :cheers:

[GregWeld]

But to my point of this post...When you said you just made a sizeable seven figure deposit into your account, I could feel my toes curl in my Slippers,haha.

Well Done... That was my whole NET worth, just deposited like nothing..

KUDOS..:cheers: I never envy or take things as bragging...


I'm sharing my deepest darkest secrets in an order to put PERSPECTIVE in the thread so all can see how my wheels turn in relationship to your (all the readers) own.

If I have that kind of "new" money (it's net worth that is taken into a cash position - so it's not new but it is freshly minted cash which now needs to go back to work!). BTW - this was made from a gamble taken 6 or so years ago -- !!!!AND I'M CONFLICTED ABOUT INVESTING IN FACEBOOK!!!!.... where should your thinking be?

That's the "context" I'm trying to provide. Here I sit on a bunch of new "employees" that need some retraining and I'm wrestling with where to deploy them.

I "might" and this is a big "might" put 50K in this IPO... but I might also chicken out. I just don't know if at this point in my life, whether or not I'm willing to take the gut wrenching ride these things can do. Even though it's money I can take out into the middle of the street and toss it away... The brain wants you to make a home run out of EVERY investment you make.... and when they don't go your way - your mind starts working on you. I don't care who you are or how much money you have.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When I owned a business in NYC -- my partner used to say -- "the only guy that ever screwed me was the guy I trusted". By that -- he was saying that if you don't trust the person - you wouldn't loan them money in the first place... so the only guy that you loaned money to was people you trusted - putting them in a position to upside-down and screw you unintentionally.

Here's why I'm adding this. EVERYONE thinks FACEBOOK is the next Microsoft... EVERYONE is dreaming of the millions they're going to make off "only" a lousy $1000 investment. So like the loan to your friend/customer etc just make sure you can be disappointed if it doesn't work out.

[GregWeld]

[QUOTE=Sieg;393136]Just ran a conservative scenario in the Schwab's retirement planner without my wifes current income or retirement, factoring retirement age of 65, life expectancy of 80..........it's projecting a surplus of $439,000. ......QUOTE]

Out of curiousity, what's your thought process to determine the "surplus"? This is the way that I've looked at it ....

I'm 52, have a mortgage, one kid in college and two more to go.

I"ll work until at least 65.

I don't believe that anything in my current lifestyle will change drastically .... yeah, I'll get the kids thru college, but something else will come up.

So, my goal for my retirement income is to have it equal to my current income. That retirement income will be a combination of SS, pensions and interest/dividends from my retirement accounts.

Is that essentially the way you guys calculate your needs?

There are MANY websites that you can simply plug numbers in and they'll show you what you need to have to retire on - how long it will last - and what you need to save between now and then etc... and they'll factor in inflation etc. So you can play with the numbers as much as you like. Ignore them at your own peril!

If you need to "make" 100 grand in retirement -- be prepared to see a gut wrenching number that you need to have to do that - and live until you're 80 or 90.

An old saying comes to mind... Liars figure and figures lie.

When 'playing' with these numbers you must be really honest with yourself about how you see yourself living in retirement... :cheers:

[Sieg]

Just ran a conservative scenario in the Schwab's retirement planner without my wifes current income or retirement, factoring retirement age of 65, life expectancy of 80..........it's projecting a surplus of $439,000. ......

Out of curiousity, what's your thought process to determine the "surplus"? This is the way that I've looked at it ....

I'm 52, have a mortgage, one kid in college and two more to go.

I"ll work until at least 65.

I don't believe that anything in my current lifestyle will change drastically .... yeah, I'll get the kids thru college, but something else will come up.

So, my goal for my retirement income is to have it equal to my current income. That retirement income will be a combination of SS, pensions and interest/dividends from my retirement accounts.

Is that essentially the way you guys calculate your needs?

Bill, here's the basics of Schwab's:
-Are you including your partner? Yes/No
-Date of birth
-Retirement age
-Life expectancy
-Effective Federal tax bracket
-Current tax advantaged savings intended for retirement (IRA's, 401K, etc)
-Current annual amount of contributions to the plan
-Investment and bank account taxable savings intended for retirement
-How much do you plan to save yearly to these accounts

It then summarizes your total current retirement savings and total annual contributions.

Then asks how will your portfolio be invested prior to retirement.
-Short term (expected return 3.1%)
-Conservative (expected return 4.3%)
-Moderate Conservative (expected return 5.4%)
-Moderate (expected return 6.4%)
-Moderate Aggressive(expected return 7.2%)
-Aggresive(expected return 7.9%)


Then it asks how your portfolio will be invested after retirement.
-Short term
-Conservative
-Moderate Conservative
-Moderate
-Moderate Aggressive

Then it asks how much you plan to spend in retirement
-Percentage of your current income
-Monthly amount you will spend
-Annual amount you will spend

Then what income do you expect to receive in retirement
-Social Security
-What age you begin to receive benefits

Other Retirement Income
-Monthly amount
-One-time lump sum amount

It then gives you
-Your Projected Retirement Savings and Income
-Your Retirement Funding Needs
-Your Projected Surplus
-Likelihood of Meeting Goals Chart in percentage to projected age


That's the laymans summary. How honest and realistic you are with the data input is critical IMO.

The Schwab site and I'm sure others have some pretty valuable tools for the independents who want to quickly run and save multiple scenarios. :thumbsup:

[billscamaros]

Thanks Sieg. I'll look thru the Schwab website tonight, as well as Fidelity's. Although I think that I have a fairly sound evaluation of how I'll retire .... it's good to bounce ideas off of other folks too.

Solar - I'm with you 100% on the health viewpoint. It's all a matter of balance .... making these plans to fund future lifestyles while at the same time making sure that we enjoy the family, friends and life around us today.

Best thread I've ever been a part of!!!!!!

[GregWeld]

Who needs me? You guys got it going on!!! :thumbsup:



Bill et al....

So here's something everyone needs to give some thought to - in a funny backwards sort of way... about retirement. I know this -- because I'm living proof having been retired 20+ years already (I'm 58 now - and plan to live to be 300!)

I - being retired - want to see RAGING INFLATION.... and you hope that when you retire you'll have the same. Blasphemous you say! How stupid is that idea!!

Well.... let's think about it this way -- In retirement I should already own my house.... shouldn't be buying new cars as often - should maybe already have enough "toys" to carry me into my 70's... so what are my costs to live? Heat, Gas... phone.... food... property taxes and home maintenance... simple clothing... the trips I used to fly to I now have time to drive and enjoy...

So... if I could make 10% on my tax free muni bonds (more than double what I'm getting now on average!) my income would be FANTASTIC! Either I could have saved HALF what I needed and get to the same income -- or my income just took a giant jump... I can afford the "inflation" on prices of basics because I'm really not buying that much or that often!

If you want to see what this looks like -- plug in some wild numbers to the "retirement calculator" -- keeping your "required income" the same -- but the rate of return on your investments "high"... use 8 or 9% (unrealistic currently) rather than 4%.

Personally -- I'd love a return to the 80's when I could get 14% on a simple CD... :_paranoid :D

[Blake Foster]

[QUOTE=solarguy09;393143]Congrats.:woot: Knowing the numbers is so important..



Also I never include my Home Equity. I do count it in my NET worth, but not for future living expenses..

That way I am excluding approx 300K of non liquid assets from my projection.


QUOTE]

I read an interesting quote went something like this
Customer to Advisor. My current house is worth 300,000(say)fully paid for. I only actually calculate it at 100,000 in value" why is that? " because I will have to live somewhere and if I figure when I retire I will down size and spend 200k then that leaves me 100k in assets to work with not the full 300k.
Something I never really thought of. In that context anyway. dDoesn't really flow with what is happening here but may add some light.

[CRCRFT78]

Just to get back on the Facebook IPO for a minute or two, would their IPO have a possible positive affect on the companies doing the underwriting? Just looking at the charts for Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan I wouldn't think to buy due to their lack of performance but Im trying to think outside the box.

The current discussion on the solid market, steady eddy dividend payers is great, but I'm now looking at the gambles for those with a higher risk tolerance. I'm trying to disect all angles, sometimes you've got to take risks to reap rewards. Although it might not be for some, others will make that move. Whats your take on the possible positive affects it could have on other stocks or companies involved?

[Sieg]

(I'm 58 now - and plan to live to be 300!)
My seat of the pants calculator had you funded to age 330.........but then you entered into an affair with Roger. He's quite talented and I've become concerned about your fiscal well-being. :D

[96z28ss]

Facebook,

Greg you have stated before to keep things simple. You used your Apple visit to the mall senario,and it prompted you to look into it and purchase it. You have had a nice ride up.

Now wouldn't you use that same thinking in Facebook. Everyone but you (and a few) are on it. I'd say about 80% of the vendors on this message board are on it. Its another way of advertising. They currently generate income from advertising and social games.
Looking back at google as an example it started at under $100 its now $585
It does have its wild rides but how about the long term?

[Bucketlist2012]

Who needs me? You guys got it going on!!! :thumbsup:



Bill et al....

So here's something everyone needs to give some thought to - in a funny backwards sort of way... about retirement. I know this -- because I'm living proof having been retired 20+ years already (I'm 58 now - and plan to live to be 300!)

I - being retired - want to see RAGING INFLATION.... and you hope that when you retire you'll have the same. Blasphemous you say! How stupid is that idea!!

Well.... let's think about it this way -- In retirement I should already own my house.... shouldn't be buying new cars as often - should maybe already have enough "toys" to carry me into my 70's... so what are my costs to live? Heat, Gas... phone.... food... property taxes and home maintenance... simple clothing... the trips I used to fly to I now have time to drive and enjoy...

So... if I could make 10% on my tax free muni bonds (more than double what I'm getting now on average!) my income would be FANTASTIC! Either I could have saved HALF what I needed and get to the same income -- or my income just took a giant jump... I can afford the "inflation" on prices of basics because I'm really not buying that much or that often!

If you want to see what this looks like -- plug in some wild numbers to the "retirement calculator" -- keeping your "required income" the same -- but the rate of return on your investments "high"... use 8 or 9% (unrealistic currently) rather than 4%.

Personally -- I'd love a return to the 80's when I could get 14% on a simple CD... :_paranoid :D

Oh man, that would be the ticket.... I would be my own King...Cash and no debt.....sweet...

You are right about the Inflation, but the regular investor needs to be making money on their money and low in consumer debt, with a fixed home loan in the 4% range...

If inflation, or when Inflation really takes off, I will be ready...I am deleveraged, and ready to rock.:cheers:

[Bucketlist2012]

[QUOTE=solarguy09;393143]Congrats.:woot: Knowing the numbers is so important..



Also I never include my Home Equity. I do count it in my NET worth, but not for future living expenses..

That way I am excluding approx 300K of non liquid assets from my projection.


QUOTE]

I read an interesting quote went something like this
Customer to Advisor. My current house is worth 300,000(say)fully paid for. I only actually calculate it at 100,000 in value" why is that? " because I will have to live somewhere and if I figure when I retire I will down size and spend 200k then that leaves me 100k in assets to work with not the full 300k.
Something I never really thought of. In that context anyway. dDoesn't really flow with what is happening here but may add some light.

Excellent, just being more conservative...When my wife and I bought our REO at the bottom, we went with the larger home with more Value...

That leaves us with the downsizing option too.. My plan is to stay here or move to an equivalent home someday.. Or just downsize later in life..

Similar to you...Maybe the house is 350K, and the sole survivor, her or me, can use that money any way needed.. 200k home, or just assisted living..

I plan to die with money invested... That way i am never spending to the edge of my comfort range...:cheers:

[lmnop]

Good to hear Ray!

Personally -- I'd divide the 21K into 8 to 10 different stocks... and if you want help picking -- then post what you're thinking up here and we'll roll 'em around. With this amount you can get some diversity with sectors and have just a bit of higher risk in order to boost your overall return... balancing out some of the safer lower dividend payers.... but with 20K invested - you should be able to MAKE over $1000 per year... and reinvested -- in 5 years you're going to have capital growth AND more shares paying more dividends and you'll be making the snowball into a snowman!

IF you want to, that is.

:cheers:

Hi Greg
I have been researching some company's that I am familiar with on Google finance. just checking the charts and dividend payout. One thing I learned was to pay attention to the % of the dividend rather than the $ amount as it was confusing me. I was discounting some companies because the divined $ looked low but in reality the % was good. I am not ready to ask opinions on my choices yet as I need to do some better research but I have a question. How do I determine if a stock (company) is "higher risk"? I have been going through this thread trying to find the answer but I haven't found it. So I apologize if it is in here and I am being redundant. As a side This money is in my "if goes up great but if disappears I won't lose a lot sleep" bucket. So I would like a fair amount of risk.
Thanks
Ray

[Coursey]

It seems that Greg has a lot to teach and I have alot to learn. I am in the process of trying to invest my money.

There is alot of good info here. It is going to take a while but I am going to read every last post of this thread.

Great Advice Greg:thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Facebook,

Greg you have stated before to keep things simple. You used your Apple visit to the mall senario,and it prompted you to look into it and purchase it. You have had a nice ride up.

Now wouldn't you use that same thinking in Facebook. Everyone but you (and a few) are on it. I'd say about 80% of the vendors on this message board are on it. Its another way of advertising. They currently generate income from advertising and social games.
Looking back at google as an example it started at under $100 its now $585
It does have its wild rides but how about the long term?


RE: FACEBOOK


I just left my local Schwab office.... where -- sorry to say -- I get some preferential treatment as a large account type customer... so after we do some "bidnezz"... we start talking about Faceybook and they'll allocate 100 shares to me -- and as over subscribed as it is now - I might get "50"...

Oversubscribed means -- more people want in than want to sell... So if Faceybook issues 100 shares total -- there's people lined up to buy 300 shares -- thus "oversubscribed".

My VP guy wants to buy it for his kids account.... but his take is -- he's going to wait for the first big drop...

So here's my "take" - which I've discussed above... it's gambling - for those that want to take the risk -- I say -- you're all adults -- JUST DO IT! Me? I'll see what it does and tip toe into it... and even tip toeing into it -- it will be a very very very small % of my investable funds. I'm not AGAINST investing in these -- it's more about "at what price" and how much. With "seasoning" (age) comes a certain outlook on life and I don't have to jump into the fray == I prefer standing on the outside and picking around the edges...


RE: APPLE


COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ANIMAL HERE! COMPLETELY!

Apple was a public company for a very long time -- that had it not been for Bill Gates bailing their sorry asses out - would have been long gone....

When I was seeing the line at the mall -- THE STOCK -- was not up (@ $85ish) so we had not yet seen the real rise yet. The STOCK was not in demand YET.... so I was EARLY.


FACEBOOK is going to come out of the gate in HIGH DEMAND... Which equates to a high price (given all the metrics of P/E and blah blah blah) so does it RISE from here or come back to earth? We just do not know. But it was, and is, a very good comparison Bob with your statement about "everyone" is using it and wants it!

[GregWeld]

It seems that Greg has a lot to teach and I have alot to learn. I am in the process of trying to invest my money.

There is alot of good info here. It is going to take a while but I am going to read every last post of this thread.

Great Advice Greg:thumbsup:


Read the advice with a grain of salt.... ;) This thread is about trying to get people to THINK about investing -- Think in rational ways -- Think about their money in a different light, i.e., as a tool to make you more money. To think about actually doing just a minimum amount of research and comparison BEFORE they invest.

There are ten gazillion OPINIONS about how this is all done... I'm just one of the ten gazillion. So what I'm trying to write about is some basics that folks can use to GET STARTED.

I'm happy that you're interested and like the thread - so far it's been a lot of fun -- and time consuming :yes: ----- THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS... I've tried to put myself out there to show that nobody should be embarrassed about this subject. We ask about car parts and how to weld and how to put bigger tires on our cars etc... and we don't seem to feel stupid about doing that.... so I'm trying to say "let's talk about investing the way we do about our cars" --- I'll show you what I'm doing - that doesn't make it right or wrong it just one way -- and then, like our cars.... you start to take that and "make it your own". :thumbsup:

[Bucketlist2012]

Greg,

Thanks for spending the time and the passion to share some ideas..

All taken with a grain of salt, all put into the mix, and not followed without personal research and homework.

Being the non mechanic but crazy driver, I am drawn to this thread.

You have done something that is hard to do...To keep an Investing thread alive and growing...New ideas and discussions all the time..

Why do I say that ??? Try starting a money thread on other sites...They sink like rocks, never to be heard from...

I have pointed a few people to this site to read this thread. I hope they do..

This stuff is what gives us so much...It is not how much you earn....It is what you keep....And then it is what you do with that money, that is a key.

At least the guys on here are hardcore serious... If they buy Coke or pepsi, or one energy distribution over the next..the are doing research and putting the employees to work..

:lateral: :cheers: :woot:

[GregWeld]

Hi Greg
I have been researching some company's that I am familiar with on Google finance. just checking the charts and dividend payout. One thing I learned was to pay attention to the % of the dividend rather than the $ amount as it was confusing me. I was discounting some companies because the divined $ looked low but in reality the % was good. I am not ready to ask opinions on my choices yet as I need to do some better research but I have a question. How do I determine if a stock (company) is "higher risk"? I have been going through this thread trying to find the answer but I haven't found it. So I apologize if it is in here and I am being redundant. As a side This money is in my "if goes up great but if disappears I won't lose a lot sleep" bucket. So I would like a fair amount of risk.
Thanks
Ray


RAY --- Great question!

Glad you saw the light and figured out the percentage was the important part... Frankly - there are so many figures on a page -- a guy can easily get messed up! That's one of the reasons I say to make a page and write stuff down === then go back and look at them all over again --- double check your "facts" and weed some stuff out -- re-check the charts etc. One time I bought a stock but had entered the wrong trading symbol... and ended up with 10,000 shares of some crap I didn't know anything about! Lucky for me - I was able to sell it within minutes and buy the one I was trying to get.:wow:


Now to the question about RISK....

Generally --- and this is really really broad brush "generally" -- RISK carries a higher dividend PERCENTAGE... so if something is paying 10% in a "5% world" -- it would raise the hairs on the back of my neck to start looking at WHY THEY'RE PAYING SO MUCH.... There can be MANY MANY reasons... so you need to look at the competition -- look at the sector they're in -- read as many articles as you can find -- so just google them and see if there's something in there that explains the risks (or not).

Now --- remember that this is a very broad general explanation... There could be a very good reason they pay an above average dividend. Kinder Morgan Partners is set up as a Master Limited Partnership and as such they MUST pass through "X" percentage of their income -- so if they have big income - the dividend will reflect that. This isn't to say they aren't risky -- it's just one reason for one company.

HYG (an ETF) invests in high yield (risky) corporate bonds... so they're trying to strike a balance of risk and yield (same thing we're trying to do = right?) and if they do it right -- you get a nice dividend (actually it's INTEREST so be careful here and understand the difference tax wise!) yield. Your RISK is if interest rates suddenly RISE -- then the face value of the bonds they're trading would FALL... and so would the price per share of this ETF. SO..... here's where you need to be DILIGENT and when you hear/read/discover that something is changing (up or down) you need to understand what that will do to your holdings! You can not be a SLACKER and think you can just go blindly about your life and your money will take care of itself. That's not to say you have to look every 15 seconds (like I do) you need to just keep your brain engaged. MANAGE your money and your risk - that's not TRADING! It's just being diligent.

It's like checking your oil and the air in your tires! You don't just put oil in the car once and forget about it.... and if you have an oil burner (A HIGH RISK POSITION) then guess what -- you need to check it a little more often!

Dude! How simple is that for an analogy?? :lol:

Generally all the discount brokerages have some kind of assigned "risk" gauge/rating somewhere on the stock page when you're researching. I usually glance at these - check the long term chart -- the dividend - then look at a couple more charts -- then compare them with other known competitors and see if I can get a better chart with near the same dividend etc... Then I scan the news associated with the company to see if there's anything I should pay attention to...

[Sieg]

Congrats.:woot: Knowing the numbers is so important..

Yes, I never run my Wife's income or Social Security in my projections. Just me..

Also I never include my Home Equity. I do count it in my NET worth, but not for future living expenses..

That way I am excluding approx 300K of non liquid assets from my projection.
So we have that money for assisted living if ness.. later in life...or for whatever.

Seig, it really helps to run the numbers once a year. Also to calculate your NET worth to see where you are at..

Then once a year revisit to see if you are up or down... :lateral: :cheers:

Thanks you.

Regarding networth the only debt/liability we have is our home and it's $250K balance was refinanced two years ago on a 15 schedule so it will (should) be paid for the same time I hit age 65. :thumbsup:

[Bucketlist2012]

Thanks you.

Regarding networth the only debt/liability we have is our home and it's $250K balance was refinanced two years ago on a 15 schedule so it will (should) be paid for the same time I hit age 65. :thumbsup:

Very Nice...:thumbsup:

I love this thread....:lateral: No really I do..

We can share and go over ideas and the different strategies we are using.

And some that are getting started will feed off our passion.:woot:

Well done Sieg..

To share, My only liability is a 4.5% fixed 30 year 150K balance( 330K value), everything else is assets , and they are in nimble, liquid, global Investments..

Mike V.:cheers:

[ErikLS2]

This thread is moving too fast for me to even participate, lots of great info here. And Greg, what a great contribution you've made to a great many here.

Got to put in my 2 cents on Facebook, and you heard it here first, :) they are a short term fad soon to be replaced by the next short term fad. They are not Google, Microsoft or Apple who make products people have integrated into their daily lives. I know, Facebook is part of people's daily lives, but in an entertainment sense more than a practical use sense. I believe people are quite fickle when it comes to entertainment and can easily and quickly move onto the next hot thing. I heard recently, can't recall where, that there were more people leaving FB per month than joining. I believe usage on there has about peaked and will start to decline as people get bored with it. Anyone prone to get hooked by that type of thing probably already is and will eventually get bored with it. I would much rather own a piece of the companies that make the vehicle for getting on FB (and it's replacement), the cell phone makers and cell service providers. Websites and social media fad will come and go but the way people access those things will remain.

Anyway, this thread will certainly be still going when FB flops and I can then point everyone back a couple hundred pages and claim I called it. :rofl:

I'm sure there's going to be some big short term bucks made on it though. Maybe I'll be one of those few shorting it after a huge upward run. (Gotta learn how to short stocks first though) :rofl:

Sorry for the rant, just trying to contribute to the thought process of investing in my own corny way. :lateral:

[ErikLS2]

Wanted to share two great websites for keeping track of all your financial stuff in one place, calculate net worth, etc.

http://www.yodlee.com/ymc_home.shtml

www.mint.com

[GregWeld]

^^^^^^^^ That's not a rant -- that's a very good honest opinion.... and all anyone need do is remember --- MYSPACE?? DOA
stick a fork in it... it's done! BLOCKBUSTER -- killed by the Netflix and Hulu
and whatever else... So it's always worth listening to others opinions.

Please though -- never short anything... ever. This would take a lot of explanation but that is gambling at it's very very worst.

[68 stang]

Greg you mentioned to never short anything. Is that because this class is Investing 102, or never at all even with WTH money? I just want to understand your thought process.

Have you thought about teaching a Investing 103 or a 201 class?

Thanks again!

[Woody]

Hi Greg
I have been researching some company's that I am familiar with on Google finance. just checking the charts and dividend payout. One thing I learned was to pay attention to the % of the dividend rather than the $ amount as it was confusing me. I was discounting some companies because the divined $ looked low but in reality the % was good. I am not ready to ask opinions on my choices yet as I need to do some better research but I have a question. How do I determine if a stock (company) is "higher risk"? I have been going through this thread trying to find the answer but I haven't found it. So I apologize if it is in here and I am being redundant. As a side This money is in my "if goes up great but if disappears I won't lose a lot sleep" bucket. So I would like a fair amount of risk.
Thanks
Ray

Ray, I have some imput on "risk" that may or may not be of interest to you.
There are complex models that have been set up in an attempt to measure risk. If you are interested, Google "risk and capital asset pricing models". (You will probably need a finance backround to understand them).


Another method of measuring risk is Beta. Beta is shown in Google Finance and Yahoo in the financial summaries of the stock. A Beta of 1.0 means that the stock moves in direct correlation to the overall stock market. A Beta less than 1.0 means the stock moves less than the overall market and may be less risky, while a Beta greater than 1.0 indicates the stock moves more than the overall market and may be more risky. The things that you have to understand about Beta is that it is based on past performance. Also, Beta is only a measure of the stock price movement. It does not take into account the impact of dividends. In other words you could have a very steady stock (low beta), that pays a large dividend and it could still have above average risk due to the potential for the dividend to decrease.

Along with using Greg's explanation about looking at the dividend (Generally the higher the return, the greater the risk), you can simply look at a historical chart and analyze the magnitude of the price moves. Riskier stocks will tend to move more than conservative stocks. In other words, the riskier stocks will tend to have the biggest price swings (on a percentage basis). They will have greater percentage increases when the market is going up and greater percentage declines when the market is going down.
Just remember these are generalizations.

As you probably know, the general rule of thumb is higher return potential = higher risk. I believe that is how this thread started out. How to get a higher return than what is currently offered by a "safe" low risk money market fund. Not much risk of a money market fund declining, but not much potential return (Currently 1.0% or less).

Just trying to bring another persective to the discussion. Hopefully, I have not overcomplicated the issuse.

[Bucketlist2012]

Ray, I have some imput on "risk" that may or may not be of interest to you.
There are complex models that have been set up in an attempt to measure risk. If you are interested, Google "risk and capital asset pricing models". (You will probably need a finance backround to understand them).


Another method of measuring risk is Beta. Beta is shown in Google Finance and Yahoo in the financial summaries of the stock. A Beta of 1.0 means that the stock moves in direct correlation to the overall stock market. A Beta less than 1.0 means the stock moves less than the overall market and may be less risky, while a Beta greater than 1.0 indicates the stock moves more than the overall market and may be more risky. The things that you have to understand about Beta is that it is based on past performance. Also, Beta is only a measure of the stock price movement. It does not take into account the impact of dividends. In other words you could have a very steady stock (low beta), that pays a large dividend and it could still have above average risk due to the potential for the dividend to decrease.

Along with using Greg's explanation about looking at the dividend (Generally the higher the return, the greater the risk), you can simply look at a historical chart and analyze the magnitude of the price moves. Riskier stocks will tend to move more than conservative stocks. In other words, the riskier stocks will tend to have the biggest price swings (on a percentage basis). They will have greater percentage increases when the market is going up and greater percentage declines when the market is going down.
Just remember these are generalizations.

As you probably know, the general rule of thumb is higher return potential = higher risk. I believe that is how this thread started out. How to get a higher return than what is currently offered by a "safe" low risk money market fund. Not much risk of a money market fund declining, but not much potential return (Currently 1.0% or less).

Just trying to bring another persective to the discussion. Hopefully, I have not overcomplicated the issuse.

Woody... No overcomplication at all...Honest, opinions, and knowledge from you.Thanks..

This is an investment thread meant to get us to participate and share...Thanks:cheers:

again, I am pleasantly surprised that this thread has a life of it's own...every other site i have been on and talked about money, the subject shifts to spending money , and never making it...True they are car sites but man, you would think they would care more....

Oh well....I know what is up, and Investing is what is up...

[GregWeld]

Greg you mentioned to never short anything. Is that because this class is Investing 102, or never at all even with WTH money? I just want to understand your thought process.

Have you thought about teaching a Investing 103 or a 201 class?

Thanks again!

Shorting stocks - which can be done two ways -- a Naked short or a Short against the box....

Naked short means you borrowed the shares from the brokerage and sold them. The brokerage deposits the money into your account - but now you OWE the brokerage the SHARES. You can't pay back with money - you owe the SHARES you borrowed.

A Short against the box means YOU own the shares - but you put in a short sale - thus you get the cash - you still hold the shares in your account - and eventually you'll have to give up the shares OR buy shares to replace what you sold short.

The problem with going "Short" is that by the time the "man in the street" thinks it's time to short a company - which in essence means he thinks the company is doing poorly - the PROFESSIONALS on Wall Street are about 10 Zillion times AHEAD of you. And you get caught in the classic "short squeeze" trying to cover your short in a rising market. The more it rises -- the more "shorts" have to cover - the more the stock rises... so it's a toilet bowl way to try to GAMBLE on the stock market - which is complicated enough without trying to be cute.

If you think a company is going to do poorly --- why own it at all - in any form? The key that I've been trying to get across here (in 102) is that we want to own best of breed - great companies - ones we're proud to own - and like them enough that when they do go down (in sympathy with the market) we want to buy more of them so when they rise - we make money.

Shorting is playing a game of chicken against a stacked house. Let the pros with billions to play with do the shorting and hedging and euro dollar gold trades.

I've seen all too often - stocks the everyone is short - and you wake up one morning and the company has agreed to be sold to X company for X amount - or fires the CEO and hired the most famous turn around guy in the biz etc.... and you just get your arse handed to you. Rarely do you get a chance to have the CEO shoot himself in the foot - ala NetFlix CEO - where people are short (BIG TIME!) and the SOB delivered the perfect short to them on a silver platter. This is the polar opposite of playing the IPO game... for every 10 short positions you try - one will be a home run.... the same can be said about IPO's - one out of 10 will be a home run - so the odds are not very good.

My favorite saying has been - and continues to be - "better lucky than smart" . A guy can be real smart and just know that shorting X is going to be a winner -- but if he's not LUCKY -- something like I said above will happen and you get creamed.

[ErikLS2]

Pretty good jobs report just came out this morning. I'm far from an economist but to me this is very good news. It was much higher than the so called "experts" predicted and most measured areas saw an increase. Some prior months were revised up as well.

If this continues you can plan on seeing Obama back and I'm not sure interest rates will remain low as long as they had initially planned either. I don't have any big things to buy anytime soon so I say bring on the inflation. That's probably inevitable anyway with all this QE we've been doing to keep the ship afloat.

Here's the report if you want to read it:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

[LS1-IROC]

So the wife and I met with Chuck last night. Was overall a good experience. Anyhow...we started talking about capitol gains and the current rate of 15%. He felt strongly that by this time next year we will be looking at an increase in that rate. Any thoughts about that?

[Bucketlist2012]

Pretty good jobs report just came out this morning. I'm far from an economist but to me this is very good news. It was much higher than the so called "experts" predicted and most measured areas saw an increase. Some prior months were revised up as well.

If this continues you can plan on seeing Obama back and I'm not sure interest rates will remain low as long as they had initially planned either. I don't have any big things to buy anytime soon so I say bring on the inflation. That's probably inevitable anyway with all this QE we've been doing to keep the ship afloat.

Here's the report if you want to read it:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

I believe that they will cook the numbers for the election...And yes, they will keep propping up the economy with spending to keep the economy going through 2012..

So, if you have positioned yourself well with your debt, and your investments..

Inflation will help you... People have had plenty of time to get ready..

I don't see the government in Left or right...That is Politics,,the exact noise that they want you to buy into, and argue about.. I see the Fiscal policy, the domestic and foreign policies, as Investment tools, nothing else..

Keeps me from having to talk politics and religion with anyone..

But the FACTS are , do you see the spending continue, ala Home mortgage and student loan bailouts, just for starters, i could go on...

If you see more spending, then there is money on the table waiting to be made..

But boy that gets into Investing/Speculating. I do not day trade, but i do formulate a yearly game plan, as well as mid and long term plans..

I need Greg's input, I know his returns are stellar:cheers: :woot: , so i may be spinning my wheels some, .:cheers:

[hifi875]

Pretty good jobs report just came out this morning. I'm far from an economist but to me this is very good news. It was much higher than the so called "experts" predicted and most measured areas saw an increase. Some prior months were revised up as well.

If this continues you can plan on seeing Obama back and I'm not sure interest rates will remain low as long as they had initially planned either. I don't have any big things to buy anytime soon so I say bring on the inflation. That's probably inevitable anyway with all this QE we've been doing to keep the ship afloat.

Here's the report if you want to read it:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Our government has a peculiar propensity to come out with ambitious unemployment numbers only to come out with corrections 3 or 4 months later. it has occurred many times since obummer has taken office.

[Bucketlist2012]

Our government has a peculiar propensity to come out with ambitious unemployment numbers only to come out with corrections 3 or 4 months later. it has occurred many times since obummer has taken office.

My point exactly...Do NOT buy into, the noise.That is all it is..

As Greg says, that is when the little man on wall Street makes his moves..

look back at all the numbers...They readjusted the wrong way,everytime, weeks later, to be swept under the rug..

Again, no politics, just facts...facts that can be used to make money..:cheers:

[GregWeld]

So the wife and I met with Chuck last night. Was overall a good experience. Anyhow...we started talking about capitol gains and the current rate of 15%. He felt strongly that by this time next year we will be looking at an increase in that rate. Any thoughts about that?

Yep --- When that happens you'll see two things -- less trading so people will go back to buy and hold -- OR -- the rats leave the ship and buy Muni bonds which will drive the prices up therefore the yields down.

Either way - the government loses.

They -- the 535 idiots that actually run the country - don't understand that 15% of everything is better than 35% of nothing.

[Sieg]

Nice to see I'm not the only that has developed a serious distrust for any .gov related noise.

Considering the code of "ethics" in modern politics you can't trust the noise. All one has to do is compare core campaign promises vs. their actual performance and accomplishments record during their terms.

I know this because I'm in the rug business. :rofl:

[hifi875]

My point exactly...Do NOT buy into, the noise.That is all it is..

As Greg says, that is when the little man on wall Street makes his moves..

look back at all the numbers...They readjusted the wrong way,everytime, weeks later, to be swept under the rug..

Again, no politics, just facts...facts that can be used to make money..:cheers:

exactly, and the mainstream media just ignores it or it gets just a snipit of coverage.

[GregWeld]

I should have explained the MUNI BOND yield to tax relationship as they are directly linked.

Depending on what tax bracket someone is in - you can calculate what TAX FREE return you need to EQUAL a taxable return.

So as taxes go UP on dividends or LTCG's -- then the return required to equal that NET goes down.

So in Washington state -- we have no income tax -- and if I can buy a TAX FREE BOND paying 5% --- I'd have to get a TAXABLE return @ 35% income tax rate of 7.69%

Right now -- with dividends taxed at only 15% that taxable dividend only needs to be 5.56%

Since it's "riskier" and harder to make that 7.69% income in the stock market -- why would a person bother -- when they could just buy 5% tax free munis -- be guaranteed to get 100% of their capital back at "X" date...

[Bucketlist2012]

Yep --- When that happens you'll see two things -- less trading so people will go back to buy and hold -- OR -- the rats leave the ship and buy Muni bonds which will drive the prices up therefore the yields down.

Either way - the government loses.

They -- the 535 idiots that actually run the country - don't understand that 15% of everything is better than 35% of nothing.

Great Line.... I use it all the time....535 People are running 300 Million people into the ground...

Amazing.. but back to Greg's point of no listening to the Noise, and make the Investments for you and the Long Term.. Not the short term, or the left or right...YOUR money....Forget about the 535 and the way they work..it is your world that counts..

:cheers: :lateral:

[GregWeld]

Okay -- so let's examine the STOCK MARKET and DIVIDENDS if they change the tax rate -- now that you've digested the BONDS vs STOCKs and taxable / non taxable return quality.

DIVIDENDS are paid as a dollar amount... i.e., they are declared in an AMOUNT not a PERCENTAGE. SO..... as the stock FALLS in price -- the PERCENTAGE of the dividend return INCREASES.

Now -- if I have to make a 7.69% taxable dividend --- to equal a 5% tax free bond -- what has to happen to get there?? STOCK PRICES HAVE TO FALL...

The oldest saying on Wall Street --- "as interest rates RISE - stock prices DIE"

Ignore the relationship at your own peril.

[GregWeld]

Here's an actual chart using the DIVIDEND tax rate of 15%



TAX-FREE
YIELD TAXABLE-EQUIVALENT YIELD @ 15% tax rate
1.00% 1.18%
1.50% 1.76%
2.00% 2.35%
2.50% 2.94%
3.00% 3.53%
3.50% 4.12%
4.00% 4.71%
4.50% 5.29%
5.00% 5.88%
5.50% 6.47%
6.00% 7.06%
6.50% 7.65%
7.00% 8.24%
7.50% 8.82%

[GregWeld]

Here's same chart if you're at the 35% income tax bracket...


TAX-FREE
YIELD TAXABLE-EQUIVALENT YIELD @ 35%
1.00% 1.54%
1.50% 2.31%
2.00% 3.08%
2.50% 3.85%
3.00% 4.62%
3.50% 5.38%
4.00% 6.15%
4.50% 6.92%
5.00% 7.69%
5.50% 8.46%
6.00% 9.23%
6.50% 10.00%
7.00% 10.77%
7.50% 11.54%

[GregWeld]

So if we are to continue this little dialogue....

My MUNI BOND portfolio currently yields just about 4% tax free -- so at 15% dividend tax rate -- I "only" need to yield somewhere around 4.71% in the stock market. Since we need to pay attention to TOTAL RETURN -- that's pretty dang easy or has been easy in an "up market". If a guy can get a 3% dividend and a paltry 2 or 3% growth --- I'm killin' it!

But you have the "535" change that all up.... and watch out below!!

[realcoray]

Our government has a peculiar propensity to come out with ambitious unemployment numbers only to come out with corrections 3 or 4 months later. it has occurred many times since obummer has taken office.

Apparently some people don't comprehend that it isn't like the government is the only source on job numbers. ADP who is a huge payroll processing company (symbol ADP) reported 170k private sector jobs in January. They did revise their December number down by 10%, to over 290k, but it's not exactly unbelievable that they have a better picture a month after, than a day after.

I think it's quite likely the 15% rate is doomed, but it may not go back to the way it was. I think a lot of people dislike the uncertaintity around it changing almost as much as it changing. If you know it's going to go back to the way it was, you could plan, if you know it was going to jump to 20% you could plan etc.

I would not anticipate interest rates rising until 2014 as that is what the fed has indicated.

[hifi875]

Apparently some people don't comprehend that it isn't like the government is the only source on job numbers. ADP who is a huge payroll processing company (symbol ADP) reported 170k private sector jobs in January. They did revise their December number down by 10%, to over 290k, but it's not exactly unbelievable that they have a better picture a month after, than a day after.

I think it's quite likely the 15% rate is doomed, but it may not go back to the way it was. I think a lot of people dislike the uncertaintity around it changing almost as much as it changing. If you know it's going to go back to the way it was, you could plan, if you know it was going to jump to 20% you could plan etc.

I would not anticipate interest rates rising until 2014 as that is what the fed has indicated.

this is off topic anyway, but its always funny that their revisions are always down not up. they(the government) try to use this information to either prop up their terrible strategies that have not worked or they blame the previous administration.

[GregWeld]

Here's my personal "take" on unemployment....

There's always at least 6% or so that are "terminally" unemployed. If you counted the welfare roles or the folks that never have looked for a job -- or those that have "given up" -- it would be a much higher (%). Frankly -- "they" don't count since they're not "consumers" except for the very basic goods. It's the psychology and fear that affects the 80% that counts... because they're the ones that "pull back" spending... and that's where the damage is done. IF the talking heads said -- hey! Good news! Most everyone that wants a job has one! :D

What I never understand is the FOCUS on the unemployed. If you had 20% unemployed - what that says to me is that 80% are still working... and being productive. But all anyone (the tv talking heads) can talk about is the unemployed. My wife spent her entire career as a senior HR person... and the only "unemployed" people in her businesses where the bottom of the productive barrel. They might have gotten "laid off" -- but that's just noise for being fired in a mass way. House cleaning.

Ditto the housing crisis... MOST people are paying their mortgage on time -- MOST people are NOT underwater on their houses... sadly those that are have ruined it for the rest of us. This debacle is deeply rooted in GOVERNMENTAL interference in the normal housing market. They ALLOWED and set up the lenders to give away cheap TEMPORARY money... which escalated, artificially the price of houses.

BUT now we're in a political discussion which serves no purpose as I think almost everyone in America understands what happened.

All of my professional life -- only the people with a real down payment - and stellar credit rating got the lowest interest rate. Poor credit -- you paid a risk premium or had to come up with a co-signer - or higher down payment. What the REGULATORS did is to "allow" (by not putting a stop to this practice) the poorest credit rate folks with ZERO down payment get the best interest rate. And we know how that turned out don't we? :willy: :rofl:

[lmnop]

RAY --- Great question!

Glad you saw the light and figured out the percentage was the important part... Frankly - there are so many figures on a page -- a guy can easily get messed up! That's one of the reasons I say to make a page and write stuff down === then go back and look at them all over again --- double check your "facts" and weed some stuff out -- re-check the charts etc. One time I bought a stock but had entered the wrong trading symbol... and ended up with 10,000 shares of some crap I didn't know anything about! Lucky for me - I was able to sell it within minutes and buy the one I was trying to get.:wow:


Now to the question about RISK....

Generally --- and this is really really broad brush "generally" -- RISK carries a higher dividend PERCENTAGE... so if something is paying 10% in a "5% world" -- it would raise the hairs on the back of my neck to start looking at WHY THEY'RE PAYING SO MUCH.... There can be MANY MANY reasons... so you need to look at the competition -- look at the sector they're in -- read as many articles as you can find -- so just google them and see if there's something in there that explains the risks (or not).

Now --- remember that this is a very broad general explanation... There could be a very good reason they pay an above average dividend. Kinder Morgan Partners is set up as a Master Limited Partnership and as such they MUST pass through "X" percentage of their income -- so if they have big income - the dividend will reflect that. This isn't to say they aren't risky -- it's just one reason for one company.

HYG (an ETF) invests in high yield (risky) corporate bonds... so they're trying to strike a balance of risk and yield (same thing we're trying to do = right?) and if they do it right -- you get a nice dividend (actually it's INTEREST so be careful here and understand the difference tax wise!) yield. Your RISK is if interest rates suddenly RISE -- then the face value of the bonds they're trading would FALL... and so would the price per share of this ETF. SO..... here's where you need to be DILIGENT and when you hear/read/discover that something is changing (up or down) you need to understand what that will do to your holdings! You can not be a SLACKER and think you can just go blindly about your life and your money will take care of itself. That's not to say you have to look every 15 seconds (like I do) you need to just keep your brain engaged. MANAGE your money and your risk - that's not TRADING! It's just being diligent.

It's like checking your oil and the air in your tires! You don't just put oil in the car once and forget about it.... and if you have an oil burner (A HIGH RISK POSITION) then guess what -- you need to check it a little more often!

Dude! How simple is that for an analogy?? :lol:

Generally all the discount brokerages have some kind of assigned "risk" gauge/rating somewhere on the stock page when you're researching. I usually glance at these - check the long term chart -- the dividend - then look at a couple more charts -- then compare them with other known competitors and see if I can get a better chart with near the same dividend etc... Then I scan the news associated with the company to see if there's anything I should pay attention to...

Hey Greg
Thanks again for the great information and also taking the time to write it down. This is exactly what I needed to hear. The more basic information I get the better my research can be. This thread is also opening up conversations for me with my friends about investing and money. Most of them talk about the next big thing to buy. I take all the information with a grain salt write the company down and do my own research now that I have some idea what to look for.

To anyone who is just finding this thread now please go back and read it from the beginning it is worth it if are serious about taking charge of your employees.
Ray

[lmnop]

Ray, I have some imput on "risk" that may or may not be of interest to you.
There are complex models that have been set up in an attempt to measure risk. If you are interested, Google "risk and capital asset pricing models". (You will probably need a finance backround to understand them).


Another method of measuring risk is Beta. Beta is shown in Google Finance and Yahoo in the financial summaries of the stock. A Beta of 1.0 means that the stock moves in direct correlation to the overall stock market. A Beta less than 1.0 means the stock moves less than the overall market and may be less risky, while a Beta greater than 1.0 indicates the stock moves more than the overall market and may be more risky. The things that you have to understand about Beta is that it is based on past performance. Also, Beta is only a measure of the stock price movement. It does not take into account the impact of dividends. In other words you could have a very steady stock (low beta), that pays a large dividend and it could still have above average risk due to the potential for the dividend to decrease.

Along with using Greg's explanation about looking at the dividend (Generally the higher the return, the greater the risk), you can simply look at a historical chart and analyze the magnitude of the price moves. Riskier stocks will tend to move more than conservative stocks. In other words, the riskier stocks will tend to have the biggest price swings (on a percentage basis). They will have greater percentage increases when the market is going up and greater percentage declines when the market is going down.
Just remember these are generalizations.

As you probably know, the general rule of thumb is higher return potential = higher risk. I believe that is how this thread started out. How to get a higher return than what is currently offered by a "safe" low risk money market fund. Not much risk of a money market fund declining, but not much potential return (Currently 1.0% or less).

Just trying to bring another persective to the discussion. Hopefully, I have not overcomplicated the issuse.


Hey Woody
Thanks for the information I think different perspectives are important. If you had giving this information 69 pages ago I would have been overwhelmed by it but now with basic understanding that Greg has provided I feel up to the challenge.
Ray

[Bucketlist2012]

Here's my personal "take" on unemployment....

There's always at least 6% or so that are "terminally" unemployed. If you counted the welfare roles or the folks that never have looked for a job -- or those that have "given up" -- it would be a much higher (%). Frankly -- "they" don't count since they're not "consumers" except for the very basic goods. It's the psychology and fear that affects the 80% that counts... because they're the ones that "pull back" spending... and that's where the damage is done. IF the talking heads said -- hey! Good news! Most everyone that wants a job has one! :D

What I never understand is the FOCUS on the unemployed. If you had 20% unemployed - what that says to me is that 80% are still working... and being productive. But all anyone (the tv talking heads) can talk about is the unemployed. My wife spent her entire career as a senior HR person... and the only "unemployed" people in her businesses where the bottom of the productive barrel. They might have gotten "laid off" -- but that's just noise for being fired in a mass way. House cleaning.

Ditto the housing crisis... MOST people are paying their mortgage on time -- MOST people are NOT underwater on their houses... sadly those that are have ruined it for the rest of us. This debacle is deeply rooted in GOVERNMENTAL interference in the normal housing market. They ALLOWED and set up the lenders to give away cheap TEMPORARY money... which escalated, artificially the price of houses.

BUT now we're in a political discussion which serves no purpose as I think almost everyone in America understands what happened.

All of my professional life -- only the people with a real down payment - and stellar credit rating got the lowest interest rate. Poor credit -- you paid a risk premium or had to come up with a co-signer - or higher down payment. What the REGULATORS did is to "allow" (by not putting a stop to this practice) the poorest credit rate folks with ZERO down payment get the best interest rate. And we know how that turned out don't we? :willy: :rofl:

I agree completely.. And I will not comment anymore about the obvious that happened.. I was on the winning end of those deals .

Back to this thread of Investing and the here and now..

The nuts and bolts of why we are here... Bubbles come and Go... But the Steady Eddie that manages his workers will win out in the end.

[GregWeld]

Solar -- I was laughing to myself as I posted this.... because in this so called DOWN economy... I've made more money than in the 10 years leading up to it when everyone had rose colored glasses on!

The brand new building (bank owned) my brother in law just bought (I'm the bank) at HALF PRICE -- will be a stellar investment for him 10 years from now! And if he holds it - it will be his retirement fund +

There have been so many opportunities handed to "us" on a silver platter it's just been ridiculous. Some days I have to pinch myself and see if it's all for real. The stock market -- had you bought or added to positions in 08/09 have doubled your money... Those that are buying property NOW will double or triple their money especially if it's income property. The cash flow is just huge and the buy in is half price.

Sorry for the folks that have lost it all -- but someone out there is going to make an absolute killing on their mistakes.

And here's where people get it ALL WRONG.... they lined up to pay over asking price for homes and condos.... and took out artificially low rate loans with short terms... THEY LINED UP TO DO THIS....

WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY NOW?!?!?!?! Right now you can buy the very same property down 30/40+% AND get a 30 year fixed rate loan under 4%!!!

Dude.... nobody wants to buy now.... they lined up to buy high and sell low. Talk about squandered opportunity....:wow:

[JKnight]

Right now you can buy the very same property down 30/40+% AND get a 30 year fixed rate loan under 4%!!!

Dude.... nobody wants to buy now.... they lined up to buy high and sell low. Talk about squandered opportunity....:wow:

We seized the opportunity in November to do just that. It was tough waiting until I was nearly 29 to buy my first house, but it's looking like our timing might have been very good. Our house closed at a 65% discount to the 2006 sale price. Loving it!!

[GregWeld]

We seized the opportunity in November to do just that. It was tough waiting until I was nearly 29 to buy my first house, but it's looking like our timing might have been very good. Our house closed at a 65% discount to the 2006 sale price. Loving it!!



AWESOME!!!

[bdahlg68]

I'm having fun owning (FUN). Cedar Fair, L.P. Just picked up some this year as the dividend has finally started bouncing back. Great yield with still potential for growth. They will be announcing FY2011 earnings in a few weeks will show if the high yield is going to stick around. Anyone else looking at this one as a "best of breed" ???

[Bucketlist2012]

We seized the opportunity in November to do just that. It was tough waiting until I was nearly 29 to buy my first house, but it's looking like our timing might have been very good. Our house closed at a 65% discount to the 2006 sale price. Loving it!!

Congrats....You scored twice....The home price, and the historic low rate.. tell your home loan rate to a real smart man in his 70's, and he will just smile at you, and know you killed it..


Excellent.

Mike V:cheers:

[GregWeld]

Even though we know it's "fundamentally wrong" to help our kids too much -- we've been looking at real estate for them. Not sure what kind of "deal" we're going to come up with - and they have to lower their "standards" - 'cause a 4 million dollar house on the lake isn't what Mom and I have in mind... but now is the time to get them into a house/condo/townhome with these super low mortgage rates. We were on Zillow yesterday looking at a $350K town home - and if we put down 50% - their payment would be 5 or 600 a month less than their rent!

Obviously it's the down payment that would be the clincher... for anyone -- but this is a cross in the road that may not happen again in our lifetimes -- depressed house prices AND super cheap fixed rates.

[Bucketlist2012]

Even though we know it's "fundamentally wrong" to help our kids too much -- we've been looking at real estate for them. Not sure what kind of "deal" we're going to come up with - and they have to lower their "standards" - 'cause a 4 million dollar house on the lake isn't what Mom and I have in mind... but now is the time to get them into a house/condo/townhome with these super low mortgage rates. We were on Zillow yesterday looking at a $350K town home - and if we put down 50% - their payment would be 5 or 600 a month less than their rent!

Obviously it's the down payment that would be the clincher... for anyone -- but this is a cross in the road that may not happen again in our lifetimes -- depressed house prices AND super cheap fixed rates.

I think you are doing the right thing...for sure with 350K vs 4 million, but to the point that you and all of us , are in a time where once you have a home, and then investments, additional property , at these prices and rates, are just a "two for", that cannot be passed up.

You can do the best you can raising them, and them giving them an advantage most will never have... If they do it right...Much happiness and security will come there way...If they do it wrong, and choose the wrong lifestyle, and dip into the equity...You did the best you could..

i put enough down to make my payment really affordable, and put the rest to work.

I used creative ways to get up this mountain..:cheers: :woot:

[LS1-IROC]

Uhg...this housing market has been an ongoing thorn in my side. I'm glad so many smart people are taking advantage of it. I unfortunately bought my house in the peak market. I have been paying my mortgage for 11 years and I'd be lucky to sell it for what I owe right now. I'm jealous of all the guys younger than me that have bought homes in the last couple years. 10 years from now they will be miles ahead of where I'm at. It's depressing...:faint:

[Bucketlist2012]

Uhg...this housing market has been an ongoing thorn in my side. I'm glad so many smart people are taking advantage of it. I unfortunately bought my house in the peak market. I have been paying my mortgage for 11 years and I'd be lucky to sell it for what I owe right now. I'm jealous of all the guys younger than me that have bought homes in the last couple years. 10 years from now they will be miles ahead of where I'm at. It's depressing...:faint:

Sorry for mentioning the housing thing:willy:

I did not want to open old wounds.:cheers:

Think of it this way , brother..... You are actually one of the lucky one's..

I am in a court with 9 homes.... All of them but one foreclosed... the lady across the street bought new in 2000...Paid for 12 years and it is worth the same as 2000... But she is the survivor... All the others were foreclosed and now resold and the court has all new families and owners, except the sole survivor...Like you...

The rest of us are in various stages of value... I am lucky, plus what was 660,000 at the peak , I got for 267,000 in 2009. In 2000, they sold for 275,000. Actually I could sell it for 330,000 now, so i am Very lucky.

But the point is that you still have your investment at least even..you would have had to live somewhere, and 10 years from now, you will be in even better shape.. No, not as lucky as some, but still a survivor.

I just wanted you to see the other side , and be Happy you are a homeowner, and you are not 100K to 400K underwater..

Mike V.:cheers:

[Sieg]

Uhg...this housing market has been an ongoing thorn in my side. I'm glad so many smart people are taking advantage of it. I unfortunately bought my house in the peak market. I have been paying my mortgage for 11 years and I'd be lucky to sell it for what I owe right now. I'm jealous of all the guys younger than me that have bought homes in the last couple years. 10 years from now they will be miles ahead of where I'm at. It's depressing...:faint:

The good news is you're reading this thread and have the opportunity to capitalize on the insight, advice, and wisdom.

Everyone makes mistakes, how you handle the lesson is the key. Admitting you made one on a public forum is a huge step in my opinion. :thumbsup:

Analyze your options and plot a course to prosperity!

Onward and upward!!

[LS1-IROC]

Thanks for the pep talk guys...:cheers:

I know of a few people who were in the same situation as I am, and they cut bait and walked away from their mortgages. I wasn't about to do that because I view it as a commitment.

[Sieg]

Thanks for the pep talk guys...:cheers:

I know of a few people who were in the same situation as I am, and they cut bait and walked away from their mortgages. I wasn't about to do that because I view it as a commitment.Figure out how you can best leverage your current situation. I gave away my first house and more in a divorce and it was a major setback but one you can definitely overcome. :thumbsup:

[Bucketlist2012]

Thanks for the pep talk guys...:cheers:

I know of a few people who were in the same situation as I am, and they cut bait and walked away from their mortgages. I wasn't about to do that because I view it as a commitment.

Pep talks anytime.. Also do what is best for you and your family...

:cheers:

[GregWeld]

Thanks for the pep talk guys...:cheers:

I know of a few people who were in the same situation as I am, and they cut bait and walked away from their mortgages. I wasn't about to do that because I view it as a commitment.

We bought a 3 bedroom condo in Tempe for our son to live in while at ASU -- figured "why pay rent for 4 years" -- we should be able to get a couple roommates and sell this place for what we paid for it and at least break even...

WRONG -- #1 the girlfriend moved in for the 'summer' between sophomore and junior year - and never left - so NO RENT -- good news is his GPA went up a full point so we figured it was worth it! :willy: :woot:

He graduates and Adrienne transfers down there to the warmth.... okay now we have another 3 years before we need to sell the dump... WRONG she moves out to a house with AJ (boyfriend).... so I just spent 10 grand on rehab to get it pristine and ready to sell... for ----- Drum roll -----

100K if I'm lucky --- on a 307K purchase price.

We own it outright -- so it's just a loss pure and simple. Oh well.... :mad: But even if we had a mortgage -- I'd just be making the payments and sucking up the loss.... because that is the RIGHT THING TO DO. I bought it - I own it - it is what it is.

Anyone need a beautiful 3 bedroom - 2 full garage - condo in Tempe? :D Just off the 101 on E. Broadway. I'm going to list it with Bob Reams wife Bev who is an agent there. He owns Imagine Injection where I get all my stuff from... a super - better than super - guy.

[GregWeld]

I'm having fun owning (FUN). Cedar Fair, L.P. Just picked up some this year as the dividend has finally started bouncing back. Great yield with still potential for growth. They will be announcing FY2011 earnings in a few weeks will show if the high yield is going to stick around. Anyone else looking at this one as a "best of breed" ???

While it's not the type of stock "I" would buy -- because I tend to go for large national well known stocks in industries that I know and understand -- that doesn't mean there aren't compelling stocks out there that should be ignored. If I had a park here that I knew about and or all my friends were going to etc -- then I'd be more likely to "understand and know" their business.

I subscribe to Seeking Alpha --- and today they have a piece about Cedar Fair (FUN)... so here's a link.


Note please -- the author owns the shares -- and when I see that... I perk up because is the article written with a self interest? Or... I'm not saying this to sling arrows -- I'm saying this as "investing 102" -- pay attention to the little things like this and then go google or bing or whatever and do MORE research.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/340151-cedar-fair-discusses-revenue-growth?source=email_investing_income&ifp=0

[Bucketlist2012]

We bought a 3 bedroom condo in Tempe for our son to live in while at ASU -- figured "why pay rent for 4 years" -- we should be able to get a couple roommates and sell this place for what we paid for it and at least break even...

WRONG -- #1 the girlfriend moved in for the 'summer' between sophomore and junior year - and never left - so NO RENT -- good news is his GPA went up a full point so we figured it was worth it! :willy: :woot:

He graduates and Adrienne transfers down there to the warmth.... okay now we have another 3 years before we need to sell the dump... WRONG she moves out to a house with AJ (boyfriend).... so I just spent 10 grand on rehab to get it pristine and ready to sell... for ----- Drum roll -----

100K if I'm lucky --- on a 307K purchase price.

We own it outright -- so it's just a loss pure and simple. Oh well.... :mad: But even if we had a mortgage -- I'd just be making the payments and sucking up the loss.... because that is the RIGHT THING TO DO. I bought it - I own it - it is what it is.

Anyone need a beautiful 3 bedroom - 2 full garage - condo in Tempe? :D Just off the 101 on E. Broadway. I'm going to list it with Bob Reams wife Bev who is an agent there. He owns Imagine Injection where I get all my stuff from... a super - better than super - guy.

Ouch.. But thanks for sharing..

I have the Sister in law...I gave a car to...Wasn't good enough...i gave them a subscription to Kiplinger's....Waste of Time...

They trade the car for a car with payments... They go to Europe.....The Son Buys a BMW.....THEY WALK AWAY FROM THEIR HOUSE.....

Then they ask me to co sign on something...LOL... Never, ever...

They are bouncing from rental to rental.....Talking about Europe again...

WTF... I have given up.. No advise, no help. They play the Guilt card..."what do we do, live in the street ?".

Stop buying all the toys,and cras, and private schools for your kids...And maybe some of them should get a Job.

My wife and I over coffee this morning were talking about it, so we can get it out , and move on with our Day. Other family have Investments and wait for it......MAXED out Credit Cards ???

They know not to come to me for money ever again... In fact they are dreaming of Inheritances that they may never get...i know some wish me dead...No lie..Straw that broke this rich camel..

Little do they know , I was at my Trust attorney for a unscheduled meeting yesterday...I have had enough. i am about to cahnge my Trust to give more to the no kill shelters.

Sorry for the Ranting 102:willy: :wow: :cheers: My wife and I have anger issues today.. The entitlement train has come to a Stop... I am conducting this Train, and they really made me mad now..

[Fluid Power]

We bought a 3 bedroom condo in Tempe for our son to live in while at ASU -- figured "why pay rent for 4 years" -- we should be able to get a couple roommates and sell this place for what we paid for it and at least break even...

WRONG -- #1 the girlfriend moved in for the 'summer' between sophomore and junior year - and never left - so NO RENT -- good news is his GPA went up a full point so we figured it was worth it! :willy: :woot:

He graduates and Adrienne transfers down there to the warmth.... okay now we have another 3 years before we need to sell the dump... WRONG she moves out to a house with AJ (boyfriend).... so I just spent 10 grand on rehab to get it pristine and ready to sell... for ----- Drum roll -----

100K if I'm lucky --- on a 307K purchase price.

We own it outright -- so it's just a loss pure and simple. Oh well.... :mad: But even if we had a mortgage -- I'd just be making the payments and sucking up the loss.... because that is the RIGHT THING TO DO. I bought it - I own it - it is what it is.

Anyone need a beautiful 3 bedroom - 2 full garage - condo in Tempe? :D Just off the 101 on E. Broadway. I'm going to list it with Bob Reams wife Bev who is an agent there. He owns Imagine Injection where I get all my stuff from... a super - better than super - guy.


Greg,

Why not rent it and play landlord for a while? Just curious...

Darren

[GregWeld]

The "market" has me thinking today -- and I thought about this thread vs the market and what people have done since say -- December. I want to reiterate that the way this market is going -- everyone is feeling pretty good... we're doing two steps forward and only one step back -- so the "gains" have been hot to say the least.

What I want people to remember is that this isn't "normal". We have outsized gains since the first of the year... and while I love this type of market -- don't get yourselves into a complacent position like we did our housing market - where it just went up and up and everyone was "loving life" and feeling invincible.

When - not if - the market turns against us for some period of time - those dividends keep on paying out... and it's those dividends that will hold you over until a down market turns up again. I'm not predicting a move - I don't think like that - I don't play the "I better take my gains and run" game... that's a losing game - that's "market timing" and trust me - you'll lose that game. What you want to really do - if possible - is to scale into your positions - build some more powder up (cash) and be on the sidelines ready to pick away at your favorite positions. Also remember that when the share price goes down -- your dividend payment will buy MORE shares... and then when the market comes back -- you have a larger gain % wise.

[GregWeld]

Greg,

Why not rent it and play landlord for a while? Just curious...

Darren

Great question -- and I hope I don't come off as sounding arrogant or like a smart ass with my response.

#1 -- I don't need the money so I'm okay taking the capital hit.

#2 -- I live in Seattle - this place is a zillion miles away in Phoenix

#3 -- Running the numbers - the rent is $1250 (other 3 bdrms there) so after I pay $250 month HOA - Insurance - Property taxes etc - Utilities etc... my net might be $700 a month or less. Less if I hire a "professional" property manager cause they take their share. $700 a month to me is about like most people picking up a dollar... it just isn't the kind of money I think about.

Now -- IF I had a mortgage - and needed to cover "most" of it -- and didn't want to ruin my credit by walking away (or doing the morally correct thing of actually paying my bills)... then that would be one thing... and especially if I thought the market might come back within the next 3 to 5 years. Remember that the market would have to TRIPLE for me to get my money to break even - and then if you calculate time money line -- I'd own the dump for 10 years and still probably take a capital loss.

If I sell it for 100K --- net -- I can invest that and MAKE 5K per year tax free in Muni bonds and have absolutely no worries or hassles.... like when the renter fails to pay or pays late - or goes bankrupt and it takes me 6 months to evict - or runs off after trashing the place.... and it costs me everything I "made" for the year plus to rehab it (again).

So for me -- I'm not in a positon to have to cover my arse... I'm in a position to just be able to make decisions on what I "want to do" not what I should or could do.

It's why our boat was called "Options".... everyone thought I was a stock trader -- but it was really because the boat was just another "option" for how we wanted to spend our time. :lol: If I was a trader - and the boat named Options -- I'd have named the dingy 'Puts and Calls". :rofl:

[Flash68]

I check into this thread from time to time. I think it's a great one and glad it has legs.

I just want to comment quickly that I completely disagree on the matter of strategic default. I have encouraged several friends to do it in recent years (some have). I got out of RE in 2007. Yes, I saw the crash coming. I am close to getting back in.

Regarding this strategic fault matter..... It is a financial and business transaction, not a moral one, IMO. I read this little paragraph recently and it sums up my thoughts nicely:

--------------
"Strategic default has been portrayed as immoral by lenders. This is wrong. Lenders were immoral when they abdicated their responsibility to sound lending practices that ensured their borrowers could remain solvent. It is outrageous after such irresponsible lender behavior that lenders have the nerve to chastise borrowers for being immoral when borrowers fail to repay their debts."
--------------

It's a 2 way street. Don't "sell" or finance an asset-backed/collateralized asset if you aren't willing to take it back.


Greg, again, great thread and it's obvious this is helping many here either directly with data, or indirectly, with the motivation and stimulation to get working on investments and retirements. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Some people work that way -- I never have - never will.

I had a mortgage on the place when I bought it (Tempe place) but paid it off... it was at 6+%... and I don't like to make payments. Regardless of that it is still my obligation - not anyone else's, I don't care what anyone else says. :D

[bdahlg68]

Some people work that way -- I never have - never will.

I had a mortgage on the place when I bought it (Tempe place) but paid it off... it was at 6+%... and I don't like to make payments. Regardless of that it is still my obligation - not anyone else's, I don't care what anyone else says. :D

Same here. Bought a place that has gone down 30%+ since purchase in 2005. Over the last 7 years, we've gotten right side up through persistence and low interest rates. Although it would have been easy to just make minimum payments and walk away now that we're buying a new place, but that is not us. We made the conscious decision to buy and got caught in bad timing. We've been lucky to be in a position to pay it down and still save for a new place. We're now moving into a great place and we are looking forward to separating ourselves from this poor investment we currently call home!

[Bucketlist2012]

Same here. Bought a place that has gone down 30%+ since purchase in 2005. Over the last 7 years, we've gotten right side up through persistence and low interest rates. Although it would have been easy to just make minimum payments and walk away now that we're buying a new place, but that is not us. We made the conscious decision to buy and got caught in bad timing. We've been lucky to be in a position to pay it down and still save for a new place. We're now moving into a great place and we are looking forward to separating ourselves from this poor investment we currently call home!

Well Done Guys... Kinda my rant and point from earlier.

I sat down with my in-laws way before they lost, or excuse me, WALKED, away from their home..

They pulled money out to fund the remodel, hot tub, private college for the BMW boy, Europe, and on, and on....

In the end , they gave up their HOME, for all this.And with 40K in a 401K, and they are 50 plus..Had they followed my plan, they would have never been in this mess.

I am in California , in an Area of fancy cars, and High end remodels, all done on the bubble equity..

so much of what is around me is built on Leverage and not ownership..I am the consumer debt free guy..kinda a rare breed here..

The survivor I told you about earlier, one left out of 9 homes. She bought in 2000, made all the payments, and NEVER took out any FALSE equity.

Her house is still worth what she paid for it, 10 years later, not under water, and she will be fine. All the other houses,eight of them including mine, went to foreclosure and were resold.

It was scary to buy when i did...Am i buying into a ghost town ??? so many for sale signs on ONE street. now everything has changed and the homes have been resold to more qualified buyers and the area is beautiful.

Big Banks are as immoral as it gets, But I went old school when i went to get a Loan.. FICO, Healthy Down payment, ect..., and I read the contract..

And I had lost a home in 1993 due to non payment and foreclosure... that was another housing Dive, So i know the drill. no pay...go away...Also I was going through a divorce, so no strategic default there...

The bubble had people relying on a quick buck and unrealistic views of the equity that was being built on thin air..

Rather than talk morality, since this is Investing102, we can say that for some, it was bad investment decisions that led to personal decisions that i will not Judge.

I would think that just going through the experience would make people make better decisions..

[CRCRFT78]

Whether or not this is a moral vs. immoral decision, I too lost my house about 9 months ago. The wifes company was sold and the whole staff layed off. She had 11 years with the company. All I asked for was a little help on my monthly. I made it clear I had no intentions of walking away, didn't care that the house was now worth -50%, didn't ask for my loan to be changed, I just wanted some help with my monthly payment until she was able to get back into another job. They strung me along for 5 months before they basically told me tough ****. The house sat vacant for 6 months before it finally sold again. Do I have a little resentment towards the banks, yes I do. Not everyone decides to just walk away because of a loss. I did everything I could to keep it and still got stiffed. Or at least everything I could with the knowledge I had at the time. This is why I'm taking this Investing 102 thread so serious, NEVER AGAIN will they play me for the fool.

[Bucketlist2012]

Whether or not this is a moral vs. immoral decision, I too lost my house about 9 months ago. The wifes company was sold and the whole staff layed off. She had 11 years with the company. All I asked for was a little help on my monthly. I made it clear I had no intentions of walking away, didn't care that the house was now worth -50%, didn't ask for my loan to be changed, I just wanted some help with my monthly payment until she was able to get back into another job. They strung me along for 5 months before they basically told me tough ****. The house sat vacant for 6 months before it finally sold again. Do I have a little resentment towards the banks, yes I do. Not everyone decides to just walk away because of a loss. I did everything I could to keep it and still got stiffed. Or at least everything I could with the knowledge I had at the time. This is why I'm taking this Investing 102 thread so serious, NEVER AGAIN will they play me for the fool.

Man, I am sorry that it happened to you.. you seem committed to bouncing back.

I hope to let this thread steer it's way back to investing. I do not want people to feel old wounds.

Thanks for sharing your story, and I will try to share info to help going forward, and not looking back...

I had a few MAJOR setbacks in life before I got to the never again stage..

The wolves are always ready for us to make a mistake.. I had a fortune and lost it all...I rebuilt it, and now I am with you, NEVER again , will i let someone else control my life...Only the man upstairs and my Health can stop me now..

I wish you the best.. With Greg and others help, the future is ours..:cheers:

[Sieg]

Condolences Jose, it's no fun being taken down by the corperate boys in suits. Which is one of the primary reasons I deal with a local bank, I previously dealt with First Interstate (B of A now) and learned early on they were becoming too big for me to do the type of business I like to do......face to face with a genuine caring human.

Stay the course, you'll survive and be a better and wiser person for it. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

The difference here Jose is that you TRIED to do the right thing... and I commend you for that. If a guy tries -- and it doesn't work out... then that's the way it goes sometimes - but you made an honest attempt to do your best.

People don't start businesses because they're afraid they might fail. If you're young and have time to recover from the failure -- I always say go for it... failing is not strike against a guy in my book -- it's a plus because it tells me he was willing to take the risk to raise himself up. That takes guts - and most come out of the failure a better businessman. Most of the guys I know that are successful have failed at least once.. and it's also why we have LLC's and Corporations - because people know things can and do go wrong - and they protect their personal assets thru these.

I will also tell you - the only money I've ever lost - was investments in sure fire 100% the coolest ideas in the Universe... If I didn't think that way - I wouldn't have invested in the first place.

The Investing 102 school says -- that's okay -- as long as you keep those investments to a very small percentage of your investable dollars.

[Bucketlist2012]

The difference here Jose is that you TRIED to do the right thing... and I commend you for that. If a guy tries -- and it doesn't work out... then that's the way it goes sometimes - but you made an honest attempt to do your best.

People don't start businesses because they're afraid they might fail. If you're young and have time to recover from the failure -- I always say go for it... failing is not strike against a guy in my book -- it's a plus because it tells me he was willing to take the risk to raise himself up. That takes guts - and most come out of the failure a better businessman. Most of the guys I know that are successful have failed at least once.. and it's also why we have LLC's and Corporations - because people know things can and do go wrong - and they protect their personal assets thru these.

I will also tell you - the only money I've ever lost - was investments in sure fire 100% the coolest ideas in the Universe... If I didn't think that way - I wouldn't have invested in the first place.

The Investing 102 school says -- that's okay -- as long as you keep those investments to a very small percentage of your investable dollars.

Words to live by...

The most successful people have failed more than they succeeded...

A Hall of Famer in Baseball needs to only hit the Ball 3 out of 10 times to make Cooperstown...A .333 average..

The post it note came from a failure at making a permanent glue....the opposite happened..

Edison and the Light Bulb..how many failures ? Hundreds? Then Boom...

It is the people who get up after failure, and learn to never repeat that failure, that make it..

Very few have hit the big one on the first shot...

I have had multiple successes, and multiple failures...

The times that I did not get up and move on, bad things happened..

EVERY time i got up from a loss or failure, and i moved on, great thing eventually happened..

Jose, this will make you stronger, and wiser..

And as Greg said, at least you tried..The example I used , was of family on a self destruction mode, that they caused.

You just got caught up in the big mess.

Mike V.:cheers:

[Fluid Power]

Great question -- and I hope I don't come off as sounding arrogant or like a smart ass with my response.

#1 -- I don't need the money so I'm okay taking the capital hit.

#2 -- I live in Seattle - this place is a zillion miles away in Phoenix

#3 -- Running the numbers - the rent is $1250 (other 3 bdrms there) so after I pay $250 month HOA - Insurance - Property taxes etc - Utilities etc... my net might be $700 a month or less. Less if I hire a "professional" property manager cause they take their share. $700 a month to me is about like most people picking up a dollar... it just isn't the kind of money I think about.

Now -- IF I had a mortgage - and needed to cover "most" of it -- and didn't want to ruin my credit by walking away (or doing the morally correct thing of actually paying my bills)... then that would be one thing... and especially if I thought the market might come back within the next 3 to 5 years. Remember that the market would have to TRIPLE for me to get my money to break even - and then if you calculate time money line -- I'd own the dump for 10 years and still probably take a capital loss.

If I sell it for 100K --- net -- I can invest that and MAKE 5K per year tax free in Muni bonds and have absolutely no worries or hassles.... like when the renter fails to pay or pays late - or goes bankrupt and it takes me 6 months to evict - or runs off after trashing the place.... and it costs me everything I "made" for the year plus to rehab it (again).

So for me -- I'm not in a positon to have to cover my arse... I'm in a position to just be able to make decisions on what I "want to do" not what I should or could do.

It's why our boat was called "Options".... everyone thought I was a stock trader -- but it was really because the boat was just another "option" for how we wanted to spend our time. If I was a trader - and the boat named Options -- I'd have named the dingy 'Puts and Calls".



Not at all Greg, I just wasn't sure what you could rent the thing for. At those kind of numbers, I agree, not worth the hassle and the 100k could go somewhere else.

Darren

[GregWeld]

That's the whole deal in a nutshell Darren. Everyone has different financial circumstances - and fortunately for us - the "loss" just isn't worth the hassle of trying to "save it". While I would have felt better about the "investment" - because nobody wants to feel what they did was stupid... regardless of the dollar amount... this turned out to be a stupid move. I have a long list to which it can be added.

And - as I said - if I had a mortgage on the place - it would make more sense to rent it even if I had to subsidize it a little each month... and hold it til I could sell it for the mortgage. But I don't... so I look at it as cash (employees) not working real well that would need lots of management to do very little in the way of a return.

We've actually discussed just donating it to a worthy cause... but couldn't get it finished in time to do that in the 2011 tax year. I can not claim the purchase amount as a loss deduction If I could then it would really be worth it.

[lmnop]

Hey Greg*
*You just have to buy down your loss on your condo. By three more at 100k. Total investment on 4 units 600k or $150k per condo. Net rent per unit $700 so on 4 units that is $2800 per month. That is 5.6% on the 600k or $33,600 a year until the market comes back. I know you know this and don't care for the hassle but $1200 a month on $100k condo is really good rent for the landlord. Plus I learned about buying down a loss a couple of pages ago.*
Ray

[WSSix]

"There's not such thing as a failure who keeps trying. Coasting to the bottom is the only disgrace" - Blues Traveler- Just Wait




Anyway, I've been absent from my own thread for too long and just caught up with it today. I'm going to sit down and figure out how to move things around within the accounts I already have since i have both a ROTH IRA and 401K. Both are set up on autopilot basically. I think I set the 401K at moderate growth level and I know I set the ROTH at a targeted retirement age of 2045 with in Vanguard's Star Fund. I'm not sure I want to touch the ROTH. I think it may be just fear on my part. I honestly am not sure how to read exactly what it's doing in terms of performance overall. I believe the most I can see is from 3 years ago on and I've had it longer. I don't know what I've put into it total versus where it is sitting right now. I know that's bad but I was kind of working on the assumption that I would always be able to pull that info up from day one on their website.

The 401K is new and for whatever reason I feel more comfortable playing with it. I just need to figure out Fidelity's website.

All the same, the point is, I'll be making my changes and posting the results etc as I said I would many many pages ago. I started the thread and I'm ok with being the guinea pig even if I walk into a wall, doh!

Alright, time to plug in the Rush In Rio DVD and get to work. I'll be back.

[GregWeld]

Hey Greg*
*You just have to buy down your loss on your condo. By three more at 100k. Total investment on 4 units 600k or $150k per condo. Net rent per unit $700 so on 4 units that is $2800 per month. That is 5.6% on the 600k or $33,600 a year until the market comes back. I know you know this and don't care for the hassle but $1200 a month on $100k condo is really good rent for the landlord. Plus I learned about buying down a loss a couple of pages ago.*
Ray

Good info -- and for this forum is very good information for OTHERS.... as this can and does work. I'll "average down" a stock investment - which I've discussed in previous posts.

I have owned LARGE (300 plus units per building) class A apartment complexes... so I understand the rent reward capital depreciation etc. BUT -- big BUTT -- they are professionally managed and I just collect a check every 6 months. Again -- the risk/reward/work factor just isn't worth the 6 tenths of a percent differential of owning McDonalds or Annaly Capital Management. $600K in Annaly (NLY) gets you 35,000 shares of dividend paying stock - it pays .57 per share per quarter... or a total of $79,800.00 per year.

Do you see why I'm rich and you're not? :rofl:

[WSSix]

This is a copy and paste from my Fidelity 401K account under the heading of Average Annual Total Returns(%) as of 9/30/2011. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaah :rolleyes:


1 Year -0.35 -0.12
3 Year 6.07 4.45
5 Year 3.24 2.08
10 Year 6.30 N/A

I don't think that's too stellar personally.

[GregWeld]

"There's not such thing as a failure who keeps trying. Coasting to the bottom is the only disgrace" - Blues Traveler- Just Wait




Anyway, I've been absent from my own thread for too long and just caught up with it today. I'm going to sit down and figure out how to move things around within the accounts I already have since i have both a ROTH IRA and 401K. Both are set up on autopilot basically. I think I set the 401K at moderate growth level and I know I set the ROTH at a targeted retirement age of 2045 with in Vanguard's Star Fund. I'm not sure I want to touch the ROTH. I think it may be just fear on my part. I honestly am not sure how to read exactly what it's doing in terms of performance overall. I believe the most I can see is from 3 years ago on and I've had it longer. I don't know what I've put into it total versus where it is sitting right now. I know that's bad but I was kind of working on the assumption that I would always be able to pull that info up from day one on their website.

The 401K is new and for whatever reason I feel more comfortable playing with it. I just need to figure out Fidelity's website.

All the same, the point is, I'll be making my changes and posting the results etc as I said I would many many pages ago. I started the thread and I'm ok with being the guinea pig even if I walk into a wall, doh!

Alright, time to plug in the Rush In Rio DVD and get to work. I'll be back.


Vanguard Star Fund SUCKS! That is the fund you should move. It invests in other Vanguard funds --- how dumb is that (for them not you) and has a 5 year growth of a whopping 3%

This is a bunch of drunks throwing darts at a dart board of a bunch of drunks throwing darts. A fund investing in other funds all owned and managed by the same group. UGH!

In TEN YEARS its UP 23% -- so 10 grand invested is now 12 grand. OMG! Horrible.

Sorry -- it's just another Mutual Fund disaster du jour.

[WSSix]

Well crap. It appears I can't change my 401K around to the point where I can select what stocks I am in. I can only make changes based on a few premixed portfolios or single index funds like the S&P 500. Is that common with employer sponsored 401K plans? Can I have more than one 401K plan where I control everything or is controlling my ROTH the only option I have now beside going outside either of these plans totally and opening my own brokerage account with say Schwab?

I also finally figured out how to view the performance of my 401K since inception back in 2010 and it's at 7% since the start. Not bad but more would be nice, lol.

[Bucketlist2012]

Good info -- and for this forum is very good information for OTHERS.... as this can and does work. I'll "average down" a stock investment - which I've discussed in previous posts.

I have owned LARGE (300 plus units per building) class A apartment complexes... so I understand the rent reward capital depreciation etc. BUT -- big BUTT -- they are professionally managed and I just collect a check every 6 months. Again -- the risk/reward/work factor just isn't worth the 6 tenths of a percent differential of owning McDonalds or Annaly Capital Management. $600K in Annaly (NLY) gets you 35,000 shares of dividend paying stock - it pays .57 per share per quarter... or a total of $79,800.00 per year.

Do you see why I'm rich and you're not? :rofl:

LOL:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I never wonder why you are rich...I am just here to learn some skills to grow my nest egg even more..

Your words and your knowledge tell me why, and Go Greg go..:thumbsup:

We can all learn and put the knowledge to work, all be it, at a smaller scale..

My wife and I were talking over coffee this morning, and we are so Glad we put as much money as we did to work, when we did.

Keep sharing knowledge with us... There are some hardcore few of us that are willing to comment, good or bad..

But I know that many more are reading and not commenting.. Also maybe overwhelmed..

i know we talked about a recap, and you did, but among your other millions of things you have going, could you think of the guys not commenting, and see what we can do to get them commenting.

Many successful car guys, that are still overwhelmed with Investing..

Maybe a 101 Generalization of the whole concept.. Better you do it than i do it..Newbie and all..

Thanks .. Too many are reading and not commenting, and i know they have questions ..

Thanks,

Mike V.:cheers:

[GregWeld]

Yes -- I'd forgotten about the recap.

My comments are all meant in jest of course.

When I write -- such as the comparison of keeping the condo vs buying more of them and renting them out -- is to try to show the THOUGHT PROCESS over arguing about what is the "best way" or the "right or wrong" way. There are so many ways to think about money -- so many what ifs -- that what I'm trying to put a slant on is just to actually put some figures down and start to make these what if scenarios. EACH INDIVIDUAL needs to adjust to meet their needs. There are alternatives if you have the options and people need to examine them.

[Bucketlist2012]

Yes -- I'd forgotten about the recap.

My comments are all meant in jest of course.

When I write -- such as the comparison of keeping the condo vs buying more of them and renting them out -- is to try to show the THOUGHT PROCESS over arguing about what is the "best way" or the "right or wrong" way. There are so many ways to think about money -- so many what ifs -- that what I'm trying to put a slant on is just to actually put some figures down and start to make these what if scenarios. EACH INDIVIDUAL needs to adjust to meet their needs. There are alternatives if you have the options and people need to examine them.

Thanks about the recap..

And I always take your comments with good intentions.

Yes, I have talked to a few people that are interested, but they just get lost.

You have a few at the front of the Class at the 102 level, me God knows somewhere in the middle, and MANY that may need occasional recaps.

But I do understand the basis of your thread, that the viewer do his or her homework. Totally agreed. I have spent much time on research, and i have just scratched the surface.

But since my Body is not what it used to be, my mind must make up for it, so i am passionate about money, investing, and Life, and the troops may need motivation.

No matter how easy you spoon feed us, we each must determine our specific needs,kids, age,risk, health,.. So many variables , that there is plenty of homework to be done.

[WSSix]

Well nothing is going to happen today for me. I can't figure out how to move things around from the website. Oh well, I'll call this week sometime and speak with a human. Why do they have to make it so difficult? Is this some sort fo ploy to make sure they make as much money off you as possible without you being able to control everything easily, lol?

Oh and I don't have a Star Fund I have their VTIVX fund. Still not great though. It gets good ratings from Morning Star et al though.

[Bucketlist2012]

Well nothing is going to happen today for me. I can't figure out how to move things around from the website. Oh well, I'll call this week sometime and speak with a human. Why do they have to make it so difficult? Is this some sort fo ploy to make sure they make as much money off you as possible without you being able to control everything easily, lol?

Oh and I don't have a Star Fund I have their VTIVX fund. Still not great though. It gets good ratings from Morning Star et al though.

While you are here, thank you for starting this thread.

Although Greg is giving us the majority of knowledge, YOU started this thread.

Whatever , everyone can do to help steer you right, will be done..

Best thread ever.. I tried on other sites to motivate people...

I was bothering their car time...Ok then...You guys are into it...:thumbsup: :thumbsup: