Thoughts on the FAST Ez-EFI system??

[g356gear]

Hey guys,
I ran across an add about the new Ez-EFI system from FAST. Does anyone have any opinions on the system? It looks to be a pretty good upgrade for a weekend cruiser to increase driveability. Thoughts?

http://www.fuelairspark.com/ezefi/

[g356gear]

Anyone?

[ProdigyCustoms]

I just got off the phone with Carl Wegner of Wegner Motorsports fame. Had a 1 hour conversation about the EZ EFI and long story short, he loves it! Has been dyno testing it and said it makes the exact same power as a 4 barrel of equal size, but has all the driveability of the fuel injection.

Sounds like a cool easy system, I am going to try one on something very soon.

BTW, we have FAST products.

[camcojb]

Hey guys,
I ran across an add about the new Ez-EFI system from FAST. Does anyone have any opinions on the system? It looks to be a pretty good upgrade for a weekend cruiser to increase driveability. Thoughts?

http://www.fuelairspark.com/ezefi/
I've used the older FAST stuff several times and loved it. Off of those experiences I would think this system would work great, as long as you weren't doing a forced induction or wild setup.

Jody

[Vegas69]

600 hp cap is kind of a bummer. I like the idea of keeping the stock carb appearance but I know I'll end up bumping up my power level eventually and I'm already at the ceiling.

[ccracin]

600 hp cap is kind of a bummer. I like the idea of keeping the stock carb appearance but I know I'll end up bumping up my power level eventually and I'm already at the ceiling.

Contact Wegner Automotive, I think they will be able to sort that issue for you.

[BBC69Camaro]

600 hp cap is kind of a bummer. I like the idea of keeping the stock carb appearance but I know I'll end up bumping up my power level eventually and I'm already at the ceiling.

The cap is 650 I believe if you bumped up the fuel pressure to 60PSI.

Page 30 bullet point #4:
http://www.fuelairspark.com/Instructions/Files/FAST4-152%20-%20EZ-EFI.pdf

[Vegas69]

I'm not that serious at this point. If I do make a change it will be 100hp minimum though.

[XLexusTech]

Just a general comment. Products like this are so Good for the hobby.

A+ to FAST for making it.:hail:

[BBC69Camaro]

I'm not that serious at this point. If I do make a change it will be 100hp minimum though.

Supercharger!

[Vegas69]

Naaaah....540 and solid roller.:D El Natural way.

[tones2SS]

Naaaah....540 and solid roller.:D El Natural way.

VERY NICE!!! My man!:thumbsup: :cheers:

[gmorris]

If the limitation is only fuel and you have enough pump (and I do) shouldn't one be able to swap injectors and up the max even more? Unless the limit becomes airflow through the throttle body. My 540 dynoed at 750HP and I would love to try this system as it would allow me to keep my port matched intake. My fuel system is already built for EFI with an A1000 and full return system.

[BonzoHansen]

Ok, question for you smarter guys. What really makes this better than say Holley ProJection TBI or similar TBI setups? That all this basically is, right, TBI, albeit with what appears to be a much neater, compact install? The ECM/electronics? At 43psi it does seem to run much higher fuel pressure than common TBI systems.

And how might this work on an LS1 with a carb intake? I guess you'd still use the msd ignition unit used for carbed LS motors and follow the directions for CD ignitions. Reading the instructions has raised my interest in this a bit.

[BBC69Camaro]

Naaaah....540 and solid roller.:D El Natural way.

Just get one of the tall deck Dart blocks, and go for a super stroker something over 700cu :unibrow:

[ccracin]

If the limitation is only fuel and you have enough pump (and I do) shouldn't one be able to swap injectors and up the max even more? Unless the limit becomes airflow through the throttle body. My 540 dynoed at 750HP and I would love to try this system as it would allow me to keep my port matched intake. My fuel system is already built for EFI with an A1000 and full return system.

I agree. I would think injectors would do the trick. I don't think airflow would be an issue. I have talked with FAST about this system. You have to disregard some of what is in the instructions. Some of the options they speak of are coming, but not available yet. They said the next 90 days would show more with this system. My eyes are on it. Very interesting.

[ProdigyCustoms]

EZ EFI is a learning program. Teaches and tunes it self.




Ok, question for you smarter guys. What really makes this better than say Holley ProJection TBI or similar TBI setups? That all this basically is, right, TBI, albeit with what appears to be a much neater, compact install? The ECM/electronics? At 43psi it does seem to run much higher fuel pressure than common TBI systems.

And how might this work on an LS1 with a carb intake? I guess you'd still use the msd ignition unit used for carbed LS motors and follow the directions for CD ignitions. Reading the instructions has raised my interest in this a bit.

[Steve1968LS2]

Street Rodder did an install and loved it.. very easy to install.

I will be installing one on a dyno engine for a story and then will be putting it in a certain well known second gen for some "real world" evaluation.

The only downside is that it's only viable up to 600 hp, but it still covers a majority of the people out there.

Will report on how well it goes on in two weeks.

[Steve1968LS2]

If the limitation is only fuel and you have enough pump (and I do) shouldn't one be able to swap injectors and up the max even more? Unless the limit becomes airflow through the throttle body. My 540 dynoed at 750HP and I would love to try this system as it would allow me to keep my port matched intake. My fuel system is already built for EFI with an A1000 and full return system.

The problem is that there are only four injectors, so it's only possible to support so much horsepower. It's not like you can put 95-lb injectors in there. lol

I forgot what the calculation is for injectors based on HP is.. I need to look that up.

[Steve1968LS2]

Ok, question for you smarter guys. What really makes this better than say Holley ProJection TBI or similar TBI setups? That all this basically is, right, TBI, albeit with what appears to be a much neater, compact install? The ECM/electronics? At 43psi it does seem to run much higher fuel pressure than common TBI systems.

And how might this work on an LS1 with a carb intake? I guess you'd still use the msd ignition unit used for carbed LS motors and follow the directions for CD ignitions. Reading the instructions has raised my interest in this a bit.

Yea, it's easier... The main difference is that you don't even need to change the intake, so it's closer to being like a carb swap. I don't know whay it wouldn't work with an LS engine.

[BonzoHansen]

I think I'm going to do some homework on my options and try to compare cost/benefits.

[R67Chevelle]

I am interested in using this on my 71 Ford F250. The 390 is going to be rebuilt next month. It will have about 370hp with 460ft lbs. My problem is that the truck has duel fuel tanks and there is no way I know of to due a fuel return. Can anybody answer this for me?

Blessings,
AMS

[Steve1968LS2]

I am interested in using this on my 71 Ford F250. The 390 is going to be rebuilt next month. It will have about 370hp with 460ft lbs. My problem is that the truck has duel fuel tanks and there is no way I know of to due a fuel return. Can anybody answer this for me?

Blessings,
AMS

Well, the system doesn't HAVE to return to the tank it's drawing from, but it can't return to a full tank.

Maybe a valve to move the return when you move the feed. Just don't forget.

Or cross the two tanks together if they are close enough to prevent one from becoming "over full".

In any event I don't see it as being a difficult problem to solve.

[g356gear]

I guess my biggest question is how the stock fuel system is modified to work with this system and if you need to run a return line to the tank.

"FAST™ engineers set out to develop the ultimate fueling strategy for the EZEFI ™. The EZ-EFI™ features patent pending technology with the most advanced self tuning control strategy available anywhere today. Simply hook up the four necessary wires and any optional wires, answer the basic setup Wizard questions on the included hand-held display and the system tunes itself as you drive. Countless research and development hours were spent on a number of prototype test vehicles to develop a high-quality system truly worthy of the FAST™ brand.

Capable of supporting up to 550 horsepower engines, the FAST™ EZ-EFI™ Self Tuning Fuel Injection System can be purchased as a complete system, including the ECU, wide-band oxygen sensor, wiring harness, fuel injectors, optional fuel pump kit and other assorted components, including the innovative 4150 Throttle Body from FAST™.

The FAST™ 4150 Throttle Body delivers the total package approach for anyone with an existing 4150-type intake manifold. Everything comes with the kit, including appropriate fuel injectors and fuel rails. In addition, it works with the original carb-style throttle linkage & is ready to accept all OEM sensors.

[Vegas69]

You need a different bypass regulator, fuel pump, for starters.

[camcojb]

I guess my biggest question is how the stock fuel system is modified to work with this system and if you need to run a return line to the tank.

"FAST™ engineers set out to develop the ultimate fueling strategy for the EZEFI ™. The EZ-EFI™ features patent pending technology with the most advanced self tuning control strategy available anywhere today. Simply hook up the four necessary wires and any optional wires, answer the basic setup Wizard questions on the included hand-held display and the system tunes itself as you drive. Countless research and development hours were spent on a number of prototype test vehicles to develop a high-quality system truly worthy of the FAST™ brand.

Capable of supporting up to 550 horsepower engines, the FAST™ EZ-EFI™ Self Tuning Fuel Injection System can be purchased as a complete system, including the ECU, wide-band oxygen sensor, wiring harness, fuel injectors, optional fuel pump kit and other assorted components, including the innovative 4150 Throttle Body from FAST™.

The FAST™ 4150 Throttle Body delivers the total package approach for anyone with an existing 4150-type intake manifold. Everything comes with the kit, including appropriate fuel injectors and fuel rails. In addition, it works with the original carb-style throttle linkage & is ready to accept all OEM sensors.
you will need a return line to the tank. I deally you need baffling added to the tank, or run a separate surge tank or custom efi tank to control fuel slosh picking up air in the system. But technically the stock tank will work with an outlet and a return line, but you'll want to keep the tank close to full level-wise so it doesn't suck air which is an immediate studder or engine shut off with efi.

Jody

[GregWeld]

I'd do the DUAL fuel tanks with a crossover line (or two - One top and one bottom) like my boat fuel tanks are done. Be sure to add shut off valves! With crossover lines open - both tanks will seek their level so always having fuel in the one you'd be drawing from.

Barring that "fix" -- you could use a "Y" feed from both tanks - and a return "Y" to both tanks.... but I think I'd prefer a single feed and single return with the X over for simplicity.

[69496]

Posting here to try and keep this thread going. I am very interested in this system but my HP is slightly above the range listed by them. I saw somewhere in this thread that the HP could possibly go up, then again Penny posted that it will be limited because of the fact it has fewer injectors which obviously makes since. Just hoping FAST will be able to squeeze a little more out of it and then see somebody try it before me. Any guinea pigs out their:unibrow:

[Steve1968LS2]

Posting here to try and keep this thread going. I am very interested in this system but my HP is slightly above the range listed by them. I saw somewhere in this thread that the HP could possibly go up, then again Penny posted that it will be limited because of the fact it has fewer injectors which obviously makes since. Just hoping FAST will be able to squeeze a little more out of it and then see somebody try it before me. Any guinea pigs out their:unibrow:

It's just a matter of math.. when you only have four injectors to work with you can only support so much power, even with massive injector sizes.

I think FAST just told me it can go to 650 hp.. I will confirm.

We are dyno testing it on Tuesday.

[R67Chevelle]

edit....

[GregWeld]

FAST makes a product EZ-EFI I think it's called - self tunes as you drive... uses all the simple four barrel carb linkage -- and tranny linkage etc.... I didn't read the whole thread so maybe you're aware of this system as well??

Just FYI.

[gmorris]

I didn't read the whole thread so maybe you're aware of this system as well??

Just FYI.

LOL...could have at least read the title...

[dhutton]

Saw this over on LS1tech. Nice clean installation:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1170771-pics-my-now-completed-67-firebird-ls1.html

Don

[BonzoHansen]

Saw this over on LS1tech. Nice clean installation:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1170771-pics-my-now-completed-67-firebird-ls1.html

Don

Nice. That is what I pictured. I'm still contemplating that, but I still think it is cheaper for me to run the EFI carb-style intake.

[Steve1968LS2]

Ok.. we tested the EZ-EFI today..

Installation.. WAY easy.. all the sensors along with the fuel injectors are contained in the throttle body. The only external sensor is one for water temp and of course the O2 sensor.

The interface is very easy to use. Install the unit, start the car and let it get to the specified operating temp (around 180-degrees). When you are in that area you hit a button and voila! it starts tuning itself.

Oh, there is one section where you set your AF ratios at Idle, Cruise, and WOT. You can also set a rev limiter (cuts fuel).

Once you make changes it takes a while for the system to "learn" and turn itself. So if this was in a car you would want to set it then drive around for an hour before you could consider it educated (although it always learns).

It bases most of it's tuning on the O2 sensor but there is an IAT and MAP sensor. It does NOT change the timing.

Fast says it is good for 550 to 600 but we found that in our test it's good for up to 500 crank hp. It's not that it runs out of fuel but more that it runs out of air.

We tested the unit and then swapped it for a carb. A 1000 cfm carb made more while a 750 cfm (4150 Holley) made almost the exact same as the EZ-EFI.

The rest was great.. the engine fired right up like it was an LS engine and once it learned the settings it was as happy as could be. Install was a snap as was tuning. For the $$$ it's a great option for those with moderatly powered engines looking for EFI on a budget.

There will be a dyno story in Super Chevy and a car install story in Camaro Performers.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[GregWeld]

Steve --

Great post!

I'm going to use an LS6 (ZO6) motor in my '37 Ford -- and I don't like the looks of the modern "stuff" in a car like that -- so was going to "CRABerator" it... so it'll look more at home... but now maybe I'll do this as it would look the same but have the EFI benefits.
:thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve --

Great post!

I'm going to use an LS6 (ZO6) motor in my '37 Ford -- and I don't like the looks of the modern "stuff" in a car like that -- so was going to "CRABerator" it... so it'll look more at home... but now maybe I'll do this as it would look the same but have the EFI benefits.
:thumbsup:

It would seem that as long as your not trying to make much over 500hp then this system would be perfect. It certainly lived up to the "eazy" part.

There's not as many tuning options as the fancier systems, but then again, that was the point.

[GregWeld]

Steve --

Do you think - or did you run - a "cam" -- with a little thump to it??

I was thinking that with the carb on the LS6 -- I would upgrade to a Comp Thumper Cam -- They have a couple of them - but would use the 'mild' version. I would assume the EZ tune would allow for this??

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve --

Do you think - or did you run - a "cam" -- with a little thump to it??

I was thinking that with the carb on the LS6 -- I would upgrade to a Comp Thumper Cam -- They have a couple of them - but would use the 'mild' version. I would assume the EZ tune would allow for this??

It was actually a pretty lumpy cam in a 454 alum headed big block. It worked fine but I think it would run even better with a less "wild" cam. The reason being is that it uses the MAP sensor to tell if you're in WOT, Cruise, or idle.. so it's looking for manifold pressure which is always low with a more radical cam.

Should be fine with a thumper cam.. the main restriction seems to be how much air can be pulled through it.

[Vegas69]

I'll stick with my bucket and poor gas mileage.:D I bet they come out with a bigger version if this becomes a success which it will. I'll let them work through any potential bugs in the coming months as well.

[Steve1968LS2]

I'll stick with my bucket and poor gas mileage.:D I bet they come out with a bigger version if this becomes a success which it will. I'll let them work through any potential bugs in the coming months as well.

Yea, a Dominator version.. lol

You're assuming it has bugs.. ;)

[Vegas69]

Pretty much...until it hits the real world you never know.

[70rs]

Does anyone know what this system retails for?

Edit: 2136.95 from Summit for the full kit. 1700.00+ for the kit less fuel pump and regulator.

[GregWeld]

LOL...could have at least read the title...

Yes you are so RIGHT!!

MY BAD...

Sometimes you just read - and then peck away... (okay don't go there!)

I'm going to use this system on my LS6 install... Will let you all know what I think after I'm done.

[ccracin]

Ok.. we tested the EZ-EFI today..

Installation.. WAY easy.. all the sensors along with the fuel injectors are contained in the throttle body. The only external sensor is one for water temp and of course the O2 sensor.

The interface is very easy to use. Install the unit, start the car and let it get to the specified operating temp (around 180-degrees). When you are in that area you hit a button and voila! it starts tuning itself.

Oh, there is one section where you set your AF ratios at Idle, Cruise, and WOT. You can also set a rev limiter (cuts fuel).

Once you make changes it takes a while for the system to "learn" and turn itself. So if this was in a car you would want to set it then drive around for an hour before you could consider it educated (although it always learns).

It bases most of it's tuning on the O2 sensor but there is an IAT and MAP sensor. It does NOT change the timing.

Fast says it is good for 550 to 600 but we found that in our test it's good for up to 500 crank hp. It's not that it runs out of fuel but more that it runs out of air.

We tested the unit and then swapped it for a carb. A 1000 cfm carb made more while a 750 cfm (4150 Holley) made almost the exact same as the EZ-EFI.

The rest was great.. the engine fired right up like it was an LS engine and once it learned the settings it was as happy as could be. Install was a snap as was tuning. For the $$$ it's a great option for those with moderatly powered engines looking for EFI on a budget.

There will be a dyno story in Super Chevy and a car install story in Camaro Performers.

Let me know if you have any questions.


Steve,

We have been talking to Casey Wegner about a 415ci LS motor with the EZ EFI on it. He said they have made 600+ with the system on an LS based engine. Any thoughts? Do you think it is the efficiency of the LS over the Big Block that is allowing it to do this?

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,

We have been talking to Casey Wegner about a 415ci LS motor with the EZ EFI on it. He said they have made 600+ with the system on an LS based engine. Any thoughts? Do you think it is the efficiency of the LS over the Big Block that is allowing it to do this?

Well, if you can make a given power level at a lower RPM then it will require less air.

Our test was on a 454 big block and it made less power with the EFI than it did with a larger (1000 or 950 CFM) carb. It was when we moved down to a 750 cfm carb that we got similar dyno numbers. It was down about 30 horsepower, not a hugh amount.

And yea, I think the efficiency of the LS helps. In our case the big-block made something like 502 hp and 535 tq.. on another engine, like an LS, it might make more. But, it can only move so much air. I need to ask FAST what CFM the throttle body is rated at. Going by the dyno data the fuel was fine, it (in our application) was just running out of air.

I would like to see your data and talk with you about the LS install. Email me at [email protected]

But the math says it can only support so much HP based on only having four injectors. Oh, our test was ran at a fuel pressure of 45 lbs.

Again, it's a great, easy to install system that covers a huge percentage of the engines out there, but if you are building an all out race engine you really need to step up to one of FASTs bigger systems.

[GregWeld]

Chad ---

Wegner has got to have some pretty good techs there... I'm thinking there are at least two mathematical issues here:

1: The flow rate of the injectors... you need "X" amount of fuel to support "X" amount of HP...

2: Air flow of the throttle body... again - "X" amount of cubic inches has to flow through this "restrictor" - no?

So I'm wondering -- since HP is only a mathematical equation based on TQ -- if the TQ number was good -- and the RPMS are through the roof - then maybe the actual math might be supported to make a bit more than their saying in their Ads?? They (they being FAST) most likely don't want to be responsible for guys going lean and wasting their brand new pride and joy...

[ccracin]

Well, if you can make a given power level at a lower RPM then it will require less air.

Our test was on a 454 big block and it made less power with the EFI than it did with a larger (1000 or 950 CFM) carb. It was when we moved down to a 750 cfm carb that we got similar dyno numbers. It was down about 30 horsepower, not a hugh amount.

And yea, I think the efficiency of the LS helps. In our case the big-block made something like 502 hp and 535 tq.. on another engine, like an LS, it might make more. But, it can only move so much air. I need to ask FAST what CFM the throttle body is rated at. Going by the dyno data the fuel was fine, it (in our application) was just running out of air.

I would like to see your data and talk with you about the LS install. Email me at [email protected]

But the math says it can only support so much HP based on only having four injectors. Oh, our test was ran at a fuel pressure of 45 lbs.

Again, it's a great, easy to install system that covers a huge percentage of the engines out there, but if you are building an all out race engine you really need to step up to one of FASTs bigger systems.

Thanks Steve. E-mail sent.

[ccracin]

Chad ---

Wegner has got to have some pretty good techs there... I'm thinking there are at least two mathematical issues here:

1: The flow rate of the injectors... you need "X" amount of fuel to support "X" amount of HP...

2: Air flow of the throttle body... again - "X" amount of cubic inches has to flow through this "restrictor" - no?

So I'm wondering -- since HP is only a mathematical equation based on TQ -- if the TQ number was good -- and the RPMS are through the roof - then maybe the actual math might be supported to make a bit more than their saying in their Ads?? They (they being FAST) most likely don't want to be responsible for guys going lean and wasting their brand new pride and joy...

I agree Greg. From talking with Casey Wegner, they definitely know what they are doing. I also know of them from my circle track days. I think there is more coming in this line of products from FAST. When I talked to their tech line they said that the next 90 days would show more. My problem is I have been offered a deal that is time sensative and I am not sure wether to pull the trigger or not.

[Bakaruda]

I helped a friend install one on his 70 Cuda with a 5.7L Hemi in it. Great stuff very easy to install and run. Oh for the mopar guys running the Gen III hemi you need to have the MSD ignition stuff as well.

[6D9]

Would this unit work for a blow thru set up?? I know you can make TONS of power with a 750cfm carb on blow thru so I would guess as long as you had enough fuel the air flow would be fine??

[camcojb]

Would this unit work for a blow thru set up?? I know you can make TONS of power with a 750cfm carb on blow thru so I would guess as long as you had enough fuel the air flow would be fine??
probably not. You'll be limited by injector size; if it can only support 650 hp naturally aspirated it'd support even less as forced induction due to the richer a/f required for forced induction.



Jody

[Steve1968LS2]

probably not. You'll be limited by injector size; if it can only support 650 hp naturally aspirated it'd support even less as forced induction due to the richer a/f required for forced induction.



Jody

Not only that, but I don't think it support it in terms of air. In our tests we ran out of air before we ran out of fuel.

[camcojb]

Not only that, but I don't think it support it in terms of air. In our tests we ran out of air before we ran out of fuel.
yeah, that's more of an issue n/a, with forced induction you'd run out of fuel way before the airflow was an issue.

Jody

[6D9]

Thanks Jody!

[johnny5]

Can this system be used with an rpm air gap? I see single plane used with all the efi set ups

[ccracin]

Can this system be used with an rpm air gap? I see single plane used with all the efi set ups

Any 4150 style intake. In other words square bore 4-bbl intake. Hope that helps.

[Steve88]

I have the EZ EFI set up on the LS1 in my 67 Firebird and I like it. I love the way the Vic jr's look on the LS1's so I was able to get that look and still have EFI so it was a win/win for me!

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/Steve88_album/Firebird060.jpg

[Pantera EFI]

This may be the system that NASCAR will use in 2011.

Will there be some refinements ?

I hope so !

[protour73]

still not clear on whether or not this system needs a proper FI fuel tank with an onboard fuel pump. The way they SELL it on their website, it doesn't seem like you do, but from all that I have read, sounds like a must. That pretty much takes away from a "bolt on" selling point........even though a fuel tank does "bolt on". :rolleyes:

[GregWeld]

Well -- The big fuel pump discussion here - had more to do with the GIANT fuel pumps the guys with the twin turbo 800+ HP motors... and the fact that they are / were pumping huge amounts of fuel on a continuous basis... pumping the same amount of fuel even when "cruising" and stop and go traffic etc.

I've been running an EXTERNAL fuel pump on a 25 gallon Rock Valley tank for almost 5 years now - without any issue. My motor is more "normal" and I'm not running the super mondo 1000 gph pump etc.

Just my .02 worth

[rwhite692]

I am going to follow Jody's advice and bypass back at the tank. I am running an A1000 (externally mounted / using a Rick's tank) and will probably use the Aeromotive PWM controller, although I have heard of a couple of failures which is a bit concerning.

[GregWeld]

Rob --

I liked the system that Professional Products was using for their controller... they were using a vacuum reference and a pressure sender rather than a tach reference for slowing the pump when lots of fuel wasn't needed. I talked to them at length and it made total sense to me.

Their point was that the Aeromotive controller used a tach reference -- but there are times when you have a "low" tach reading but might need lots of fuel - such as climbing a long grade.. in a higher gear. The Pro system used the two senders - vacuum (think open throttle) and pressure - to maintain pressure at all times. Weldon also makes a "programable" PWM controller.

We also discussed fuel pumps and the two guys that were in the booth at SEMA liked the Mallory geroter over any of the others or styles.

Something that we kind of "forget" about when using these high volume - high pressure pumps.... FUEL "boils" easier at high pressure - the exact opposite of water under pressure... so the more pressure we make the easier it is to get the fuel aerated... add some heat from the fuel rails - and the heat the pump makes in making pressure - some road heat in stop and go traffic and the next thing you know - you've got some fuel problems.

Mark has done a ton of work on this... and certainly knows what he's talking about. My big question on this subject though is - if you're running some "normal" horsepower... and a smaller than maximum pump (not the Aeromotive A1000 for example) then is this still an issue?

I also run SS hard line from the tank (well - except for some FTE braided for flexing) and for the return as well... and I wonder if this doesn't help dissipate the heat?

Just for what it's worth...

[GregWeld]

CORRECTION -- it was RETROTEK that has this fuel controller system....

I remember now too - that they made another point about their system. You didn't need a return line - because they ran the pump just enough to fuel the engine rather than just flowing fuel as fast as the pump could run...

[Pantera EFI]

Would you consider a NASCAR fuel pump ?

They can be sized for the correct volume with the price equal to a big Aeromotive/dual pumps.

These pumps produce no heat except for the compression of the fuel.

When you choose a fuel pump, do an INSPECTION inside of the pump, most would be surprised.

My pump features a sealed, smooth armature (no windings visible), speed balanced, greater pole count
with 2x the brush area of the common "brand name" pump.
Many OEM pumps also have these features.

Lance

[sacarguy]

This is what i do for a livng build huge horsepower daily driven efi cars.

I personaly have over 5 years and 70 thousand miles on a fuel system that will suport 1000 horsepower without any tricks and i have literaly over 75 customers runing the same system in their cars.

its very simple. and very quiet and cheaper then any of the big pump stuff.

Just take two external bosh 255 efi pumps run a -6 line to a y then -6 to them and then -6 back to a second y then a single -8 feed to the front and a -6 return using any return style efi regulator.

its as reliable as any stock fuel system as they are stock type bosh pumps meant for continual use over years of duty service.

its when peoeple try to use the big race only aftermarket fuel pumps that were meant for low duration use that the problem comes in.

[GregWeld]

Not to doubt you -- but your post leaves me wondering....

Walbro makes a "255" pump -- not Bosh.

BOSCH has an equivalent pump. It's an O44....

[Novelli]

Just installed one on a 69 Camaro. The computer took a crap before I was able to even fire the car. FAST said they had a prob with some of the computers. Recieved the new one and was not able to get fuel to the injectors, ends up there wiring harness pig tail that hooks to the fuel pump was wired backwards, not to happy with that, but I will let you know more when I drive it some more.

[GregWeld]

Yep -- Let's ship some more of our manufacturing to... where? China? Taiwan?

[wiedemab]

Just installed one on a 69 Camaro. The computer took a crap before I was able to even fire the car. FAST said they had a prob with some of the computers. Recieved the new one and was not able to get fuel to the injectors, ends up there wiring harness pig tail that hooks to the fuel pump was wired backwards, not to happy with that, but I will let you know more when I drive it some more.

Damn, that is disappointing. Keep us posted. I hate having to get 2 or 3 of something before you get a good one. It makes you wonder............... Do they do any quality checks. For a part of this cost and the relatively low volume compared to other electronics I would think they could afford to do 100% inspection. Even more so if it is being made in a low(er) labor cost country.

[uppster]

Does the style of intake effect the drivabilty of this system, or does the electronics take over? The dual plane intakes are suppose to be for low end/street use single plane for higher rpms. Does this system even care what type of intake is used?

[Novelli]

So we got the Camaro up and going. We had some issues with the system initially, computer took a crap before it was even fired, the supplied fuel pump took a dump after 20 miles. Wasn't to happy at first but it seems to work well now. The car is sporting a 406sbc, big heads, victor intake, big cam, 3500 converter. The car seems to like the set up well. It does seem to get better the more we drive the car, the computer does learn. There is no spits, sputters, or flat spots with the car and it blows the tires off through all gears. I would recomend upgrading the fuel pump from the supplied one to a better quality aftermarket pump or Ricks tank with with an in tank pump. So yeah... it works pretty good.

[6spdcamaro]

if your over 600hp fast makes an upgrade kit for dual throttle bodies up to 1200 hp

[g356gear]

if your over 600hp fast makes an upgrade kit for dual throttle bodies up to 1200 hp

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FS&Product_Code=304155&Category_Code=EFISystemEZIEFIKits

[g356gear]

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FS&Product_Code=304155&Category_Code=EFISystemEZIEFIKits

Dual Quad Option for 1100hp

*Dual Quad Upgrade Kit must be used in conjunction with an original FAST™ EZ-EFI® Self Tuning Fuel Injection Kit, part #30226-KIT or #30227-KIT.

• Easy-to-use setup Wizard provides comprehensive walk-through and system tunes itself

• Base EZ-EFI® System includes ECU, wide-band oxygen sensor, wiring harness, injectors, throttle body and optional fuel pump kit

• Dual Quad upgrade Kit includes second throttle body, injectors and linkage kit

• Bolts on to ANY engine up to 1000+ hp; ideal for hot rodders looking to increase fuel capacity


http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/graphics/00000002/304155_600.jpg

[g356gear]

Can anyone recommend a good quality dual quad intake for this set-up?

I was looking at this

http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/7520/10002/-1

Edelbrock Air-Gap Dual-Quad Manifolds feature an award-winning design that incorporates the same race-winning technology that's been used in the Victor Series competition intakes for years. The air-gap design features an open air space that separates the runners from the hot engine oil resulting in a cooler, denser charge for more power. RPM Air-Gap manifolds are modeled after Performer RPM intakes for high performance street power from 1500-to-6500 rpm.


http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/3507520.jpg

[MarkM66]

That's probably about as good as it gets.

Next step up would be a tunnel ram.

[Mike Norris]

For folks interested in this FAST EZ EFI or any other FAST product, I am offering 10% off of Summits advertised pricing plus free shipping.

Mike Norris

[Smitty67]

For folks interested in this FAST EZ EFI or any other FAST product, I am offering 10% off of Summits advertised pricing plus free shipping.

Mike Norris

Hmm.. If I could only find someone to help tune a Fast XFI??

[ProdigyCustoms]

You Asked for it Steve.................

Check this out boys, Group Purchase in effect

Details here

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?p=269508#post269508

[g356gear]

E-mails sent......but no reply

[ProdigyCustoms]

I got ya Steve, I thought I replied when I moved you into my FAST folder.

We will start invoicing when we get a couple more. Were at 5 right now, I have a couple others I am expecting to jump in. When we get 8 I am ordering.

[ken67]

The powerjection 3 will handle the boost and is made in the USA. Fast copied it and is trying to out advertize it but the Powerjection is the best bang for the buck period.

Also Pro Products just recieved their Patent on this system. Fast is a good company but i think everyone is brain washed and afraid to step outside the box. As of today there are over 1000 sucessfull installs on the power3. That must count for something. Also you can buy it cheaper without having to get 10 buddies to chip in.

[g356gear]

The powerjection 3 will handle the boost and is made in the USA. Fast copied it and is trying to out advertize it but the Powerjection is the best bang for the buck period.

Also Pro Products just recieved their Patent on this system. Fast is a good company but i think everyone is brain washed and afraid to step outside the box. As of today there are over 1000 sucessfull installs on the power3. That must count for something. Also you can buy it cheaper without having to get 10 buddies to chip in.

They are still only capped at 550hp so boost wouldnt really matter at that power level.

[ken67]

I think Retrotek made it and FAST copied it, Its good for boosted apps too

[g356gear]

I have been thinking about going to an EFI fuel tank with an in-tank pump instead of the external pump that comes with the kit. Any thoughts on going that direction?

[GregWeld]

I'd only have one comment about an internal pump vs external ---- the FACTORIES use an INTERNAL pump... and they work for lots and lots of miles... RIGHT?
:thumbsup:

[g356gear]

How does this system work with a stock fuel tank?

[camcojb]

How does this system work with a stock fuel tank?
any EFI system needs an uninterrupted fuel source, so any air sucked into the pump is an immediate "hiccup" with efi, vs a carb that has a fuel bowl to cover up such issues.

It will work with a stock tank but will have issues when the tank gets to lower levels.

Jody

[g356gear]

any EFI system needs an uninterrupted fuel source, so any air sucked into the pump is an immediate "hiccup" with efi, vs a carb that has a fuel bowl to cover up such issues.

It will work with a stock tank but will have issues when the tank gets to lower levels.

Jody

That is what I was concerned about. I would think that there would have been a solution thought of with the kit.

[GregWeld]

The "solution" is to install a sump in your tank - or switch to a tank with a sump.

I have an Accel Gen 7 system... and my tank is a Rock Valley SS 25 gallon custom version I had built... BUT at the time I was running a carb...

When I switched to EFI I put a bung in the bottom of the tank... and you'll get a good laugh at this - I put it at the FRONT of the tank and it should have been at the BACK of the tank (you can coast downhill but need fuel to go up a hill... right?). So I pulled the tank, YESTERDAY, as a matter of fact - to install a sump at the REAR where it should be and I should have done this 5 years ago. I've been very careful to not run the tank below about HALF so that I don't suck air.. or if I head up a steep grade - I don't uncover the pickup point in a low fuel situation. DUMB of me... but I'm fixing that now.

THE EZ EFI is assuming you're going to use the stock factory fuel tank - and it has a draw from the bottom of the tank (like a straw in a glass)... and you add a return 'port' (thru the sender which can be taken out of the tank cleaned and welded on or drilled etc). Their kit has an IN LINE fuel pump and filter... but you're going to have to plumb in a return line. THE RETROTEK/PROJECTION system uses a pump controller - and is returnless... because they just crank down the pressure when idling etc...

[David Pozzi]

Not only that, but I don't think it support it in terms of air. In our tests we ran out of air before we ran out of fuel.

The butterflies measure 1 3/4" which is pretty large, 1 11/16" is pretty common on a Holley carb around 750 = 800. There are no venturi's or boosters so I think the throttle body flows air pretty well when compared to an average carb. Inglese uses this system in a Weber carb look-alike system using 8 injectors. I would think you could use the current air valve and add 8 injectors to a carb type intake and get more even fuel distribution. You can also run dual throttle bodies on a tunnel ram or cross ram.

We've been using the EzEFI for a couple of weeks and the only issue has been a little rough running until warm. There are no cold start or cold running tuning options for this system, so the only option to fool with is the target idle air fuel ratio.

By rough running, I mean after a cold night you can reach in and start the car, it runs a little rough and can die once or twice, then keeps running and get's smoother once warmed up. When warm there are no issues at all.

Things I'm trying are different target air fuel for idle, and higher idle speed setting. I also did not connect the power wires to the battery as the instructions said to do in bold print, I moved them and it got better. They say to observe TPS volts at idle and if you see any variation, it indicates interference perhaps from the power supply connections if not connected directly to battery. I connected to the power junction right next to the battery on the radiator support, did not see any variation of TPS signal, but DID see a flicker on the rpm signal. I also moved the tach wires as far away from the spark plug wires as possible.

Here's a video I did of cold startup.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHjbKapFoZ0)

[GregWeld]

David ---

RE: Video making

Don't quit your day job! :rofl: :rofl:

What is your idle speed? The video makes it sound really "high" and I'm sure it's not.

I just ordered the EZ EFI ECM with harness etc for my Nomad... I'm switching it over from the Accel Gen 7. I'm running an 8 stack EFI from Imagine Injection and they (Fast) are now selling this set up separate from Inglese -- so you can use any manifold... It should be interesting. I've always been pretty happy with the Accel... with the exception of their poorly constructed Dual Sync distributor. But mostly I just like the fact that this system is pretty hands off... and trust me when I tell you -- I've spent about a bazillion dollars on "tuners" -- each guy thinking the other was an idiot... and I'm real tired of that whole "mess". 10 years of that... I'm done. Let the computer do the talking!

[g356gear]

The butterflies measure 1 3/4" which is pretty large, 1 11/16" is pretty common on a Holley carb around 750 = 800. There are no venturi's or boosters so I think the throttle body flows air pretty well when compared to an average carb. Inglese uses this system in a Weber carb look-alike system using 8 injectors. I would think you could use the current air valve and add 8 injectors to a carb type intake and get more even fuel distribution. You can also run dual throttle bodies on a tunnel ram or cross ram.

We've been using the EzEFI for a couple of weeks and the only issue has been a little rough running until warm. There are no cold start or cold running tuning options for this system, so the only option to fool with is the target idle air fuel ratio.

By rough running, I mean after a cold night you can reach in and start the car, it runs a little rough and can die once or twice, then keeps running and get's smoother once warmed up. When warm there are no issues at all.

Things I'm trying are different target air fuel for idle, and higher idle speed setting. I also did not connect the power wires to the battery as the instructions said to do in bold print, I moved them and it got better. They say to observe TPS volts at idle and if you see any variation, it indicates interference perhaps from the power supply connections if not connected directly to battery. I connected to the power junction right next to the battery on the radiator support, did not see any variation of TPS signal, but DID see a flicker on the rpm signal. I also moved the tach wires as far away from the spark plug wires as possible.

Here's a video I did of cold startup.
cHjbKapFoZ0
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHjbKapFoZ0)

Hi David,
What are you using for ignition components?

[Josh69]

Greg, do you think welding in a sump to our stock first gen tank is adequate? I know it'll be 'covered' more often than the factory pick-up, but would it still uncover under normal aggressive street driving/cornering at speed with less than a quarter tank?

I can't decide what to do. I want to run EFI, but I have heard that on the Spectra tanks the sender is in the return sump so it always shows a half tank of fuel until all of the sudden you run out! :willy:

There is a large gas tank repair shop here in town that would weld in a sump and seal my tank. I wonder if they could weld in some baffles on either side of the sump to keep fuel in that area under cornering.

[GregWeld]

Greg, do you think welding in a sump to our stock first gen tank is adequate? I know it'll be 'covered' more often than the factory pick-up, but would it still uncover under normal aggressive street driving/cornering at speed with less than a quarter tank?

I can't decide what to do. I want to run EFI, but I have heard that on the Spectra tanks the sender is in the return sump so it always shows a half tank of fuel until all of the sudden you run out! :willy:

There is a large gas tank repair shop here in town that would weld in a sump and seal my tank. I wonder if they could weld in some baffles on either side of the sump to keep fuel in that area under cornering.


Well -- let's first establish that I am no "expert" on this - or any other subject for the matter... LOL

A "new" OEM factory EFI car uses an in-tank pump with a "sock" filter over the pickup tube - and they all have some fashion of a built in "sump". I was helping a buddy on his El Camino tank the other day - we were replacing the stock pump. This tank had a PLASTIC sump that oriented the sock and pickup tube. I was surprised at how shallow it was... maybe only an inch deep... and it sat in a baffled area in the bottom of the tank.

What I'm going to do is to ADD ON a sump -- after I cut some holes into the bottom of the existing tank (probably a series of half inchers) - so the fuel will fall into the sump area. So the sump will be a "wart" on the bottom of the tank. I will install weld in bung at the bottom REAR of this sump area for the fuel outlet. So if I build the sump 10" wide (side to side) and build it so that it is a triangle shape (looking at it from the side) tapering from the front area and getting deeper at the back -- figure I'll drop it 3 or so inches at the pickup point... BY THE WAY -- they sell a pre made sump like this at Summit Racing - but they're just steel - but poke around their site and you'll see what I'm making. I'll do mine custom (I like building stuff like this!) out of SS to match my tank...

NOW -- Second issue -- AERATION of the fuel from the return line.... this is B A D... You don't want to be creating a "fountain effect" in the fuel tank... and making pretty little bubbles... which will then get sucked up in the pump. Pumps like liquid and not air! LOL --- so I'd put the "return line" as your old abandoned pick up line... it should be inserted into the tank near the bottom... and thus = should be covered by fuel most all the time... and shooting the fuel at the bottom should keep if from causing this problem.

Place the SUMP/PICKUP area away from the "return" fuel.... most of the old stock tanks pick up fuel from the center area of the tank -- so if that's your return - then you add a sump at the very rear bottom of the tank - you should be golden.

Maybe some others will pick up on this thread and correct any - or add to any - info I'm providing.

[Josh69]

That is helpful. I looked into the Competition Engineering sump (likely the one at Summit). They instruct to drill 5 2.5" holes allowing the fuel to drop. I've wondered if smaller holes would allow better retention of fuel in the sump. The sump is 3" deep at the rear, and spans 11" x 7" or so. I would think this is a large enough area to create a 'pool' in the bottom of the tank to keep the pickup covered most of the time. With 3" sides near the back, I would think it would hold enough for most situations on the street.

This sounds similar to what you'll be doing. I'd probably keep 1/4 tank of fuel in as much as possible, again, this is a street only car.

I would then turn my old pick-up into the return, and install a vent somehow.

This, of course, is if I pony up and buy the EFI in the first place:unibrow:

[GregWeld]

That type "sump" is exactly what I was discussing. I'm surprised at that large of a hole... but they may want them that large so that the fuel doesn't JUMP the holes as you go with side forces etc... too small of a whole and the fuel could just skip right over it.

I haven't researched that yet - and would do so BEFORE I start my mods. My original thought was to "fill" the area covered by the sump with .5 or .75 holes... so it'd look like swiss cheese but still have "some" structure. I have some very cool Hougen RotaCut Broaches from 5/16" up to 3"... and they'll eat stainless all day and make a perfect undistorted hole. So I can make the proper size and pattern for whatever is recommended.

You're on the right track... :thumbsup:

[David Pozzi]

Greg,
Lots went wrong on that one, like the hood going closed, and I didn't zoom back enough to show the handheld controller, also got too far from the camera and it didn't pick up my voice when I was over by the car but I only got one chance to do it when the engine was cold so that's all you get! :lol:

Idle was at 800 because I had it at 750 and it was struggling when cold. I have started it up cold 2 or 3 times since this vid and it hasn't quit like it did in the video.

The car came to us with an HEI distributor crammed in against the firewall, they had to beat it in to make enough room. I like HEI's but don't like a dented in firewall. I can barely get the air cleaner on.
David

[waynieZ]

I'm going to use this one from Aeromotive in my Camaro, it sound like a good solution.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AEI-18650/

[Josh69]

I'm going to use this one from Aeromotive in my Camaro, it sound like a good solution.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AEI-18650/

That looks interesting. I read the instructions. They want you to mount it so the sides of the sump are 1/4" away from the top of the tank, then drill a 3/8" hole on either side of the sump, up 1/8" from the lowest point in the tank. They want the sender to be mounted away from the sump box so it doesn't interfere. The two 3/8" holes drilled in the sump are the secondary source of fuel, and the return (3rd bung on the sump) is the primary source of fuel to fill the sump. Seems like two 3/8" holes is a little small to me, but I'm no engineer.

For the first gens, not sure how well it would work unless it can be mounted far enough back to not interfere with the factory sending unit...or one can either offset mount the sump, or offset the sending unit as well. I guess if you're cutting a hole that big in the bottom, probably not that much more work to move the sender mounting ring on the topside as well.

[TurboNova]

One thing I didn't see mentioned was;

I returned my fuel back into the fuel fill tube. It unbolted from the tank, I welded a steel AN fitting and returned it back into the top of the stock tank.
Just like filling it up at the gas station. One thing for sure, you don't want to pickup fuel from one of those weld in sumps and return on the other side. We have had a ton of problems drag racing with the sump set up wrong this way getting air bubbles sucked into the fuel pump.

Now the supply, you need a better sump. On my stock 66 Nova wagon, I used the stock line to feed the engine and you can hear the pump pickup uncover when it gets below 1/4 tank and a hard corner but it still drives just fine. It's not a race car just a stock 283.

I personally saw a 572 GM crate engine on the Dyno at Fast that made 600hp give or take. They ran 60psi fuel pressure and it was correcting the fuel 30% at then end of the run. I am sure the next run it wouldn't have been so bad. They recommend the aeromotive pump upgrade above the 500hp. That is about all one of the walboro pumps are good for. No one here has talked about the Magnafuel pumps, they are about the best for electric pumps I believe.

As for Fast copying this, don't think so, this is just a dumbed down version of what they already have had for years. An EFI system that uses closed loop fuel to correct the VE table. Nothing new here. 4 Injectors in one throttle body? New? Accel has also had that for years too. Retrotek is new on the EFI scene, if anyone copied anyone it's them.

I know the Fast software engineer Lance has been working on this for at least 2 yrs, Fast contracted someone else to do the EZ EFI but weren't happy with what they got so Lance took what they had and rebuilt the software to work.

Now they are back to work improving the XFI software with new features.

[GregWeld]

I posted up a thread on the results of using the FAST EZ EFI Multiport harness and ECM on here...

My motor is a 406/408 - in reality it's a 407... LOL
8 Stack Imagine Injection
Inglese 8 stack intake with common plenum
Dart Pro 1 aluminum heads - 180cc
Forged crank with Honda rod journal
Crane - HYD roller - 230/236 - 112* LSA
36 pound injectors

Installed the FAST EZ EFI - and answered all the questions in the setup... set the TPS - Motor fired in nano seconds... and idled... I adjusted the butterflies using a manometer... and by the time I dialed those in - the motor was getting happier and happier... you could hear it learning and dialing in the VE's... Set the timing... she got happier... started to add some loading - and some rpms - held until we saw better A/F's... added some more rpms - watched and heard it learning... varied the rpms... every minute it's sounding better.... 35 minutes of this - and she's singing a sweet angry song... instant throttle response... time to make some upper rpms...
Add some load and boost the rpms up --- again you just hear it dialing in... god this is FUN I'm thinking.... okay -- 45 minutes or so into it.... we giving this SBC some load... and winging it into the 5000's.... A/F's getting better and better... right on target....

Stop - diddle with timing... adjust the idle better (lower)... check the cleanable oil filter... SWEET -- nothing there... oil and a little bit of shop rag... to be expected..... Time for some real fun.... Whop whop whop the thing really has insane throttle response.... Wing it to 6000.... NICE NUMBERS on the first pull.... wing it wing it - Load and pull.... better numbers... and the A/F's are spot on now.... a little lean at peak tq.... ALL STOP -- bump the fuel pressure.... 45#'s now... set total timing at 34*... Fires INSTANTLY - like a new car.... WOW! Idle is dead on... sounds nasty and crisp as hell... great compression and I'm really happy with the cam choice! Power pulls -- several in a row -- with some cooling time... and some messing with total timing... these pulls are overlaying one on top the other - steady linear power... Time to pull out some timing for "****z and giggles" I'm telling the dyno operator - I think she'll run better at 32 than 36... he disagrees with me - but it's my motor - we pull power at 36* then bump down to 32* -- it lays better torque and hp at 32* (chock one up for me)... they're gaining some respect... LOL --- I've done this dance more than a few times.... Anyway -- the net result of 550 TQ and 525.4 HP - with itty bitty 180 cc heads.. and a decent but not nasty cam.... I'm absolutely jacked to the moon with the FAST EZ EFI.... NEVER have I seen anything so dang EZ! This is a total winner in my book. :cheers: :cheers: :woot:

[BanditDave]

I posted up a thread on the results of using the FAST EZ EFI Multiport harness and ECM on here...

My motor is a 406/408 - in reality it's a 407... LOL
8 Stack Imagine Injection
Inglese 8 stack intake with common plenum
Dart Pro 1 aluminum heads - 180cc
Forged crank with Honda rod journal
Crane - HYD roller - 230/236 - 112* LSA
36 pound injectors

Installed the FAST EZ EFI - and answered all the questions in the setup... set the TPS - Motor fired in nano seconds... and idled... I adjusted the butterflies using a manometer... and by the time I dialed those in - the motor was getting happier and happier... you could hear it learning and dialing in the VE's... Set the timing... she got happier... started to add some loading - and some rpms - held until we saw better A/F's... added some more rpms - watched and heard it learning... varied the rpms... every minute it's sounding better.... 35 minutes of this - and she's singing a sweet angry song... instant throttle response... time to make some upper rpms...
Add some load and boost the rpms up --- again you just hear it dialing in... god this is FUN I'm thinking.... okay -- 45 minutes or so into it.... we giving this SBC some load... and winging it into the 5000's.... A/F's getting better and better... right on target....

Stop - diddle with timing... adjust the idle better (lower)... check the cleanable oil filter... SWEET -- nothing there... oil and a little bit of shop rag... to be expected..... Time for some real fun.... Whop whop whop the thing really has insane throttle response.... Wing it to 6000.... NICE NUMBERS on the first pull.... wing it wing it - Load and pull.... better numbers... and the A/F's are spot on now.... a little lean at peak tq.... ALL STOP -- bump the fuel pressure.... 45#'s now... set total timing at 34*... Fires INSTANTLY - like a new car.... WOW! Idle is dead on... sounds nasty and crisp as hell... great compression and I'm really happy with the cam choice! Power pulls -- several in a row -- with some cooling time... and some messing with total timing... these pulls are overlaying one on top the other - steady linear power... Time to pull out some timing for "****z and giggles" I'm telling the dyno operator - I think she'll run better at 32 than 36... he disagrees with me - but it's my motor - we pull power at 36* then bump down to 32* -- it lays better torque and hp at 32* (chock one up for me)... they're gaining some respect... LOL --- I've done this dance more than a few times.... Anyway -- the net result of 550 TQ and 525.4 HP - with itty bitty 180 cc heads.. and a decent but not nasty cam.... I'm absolutely jacked to the moon with the FAST EZ EFI.... NEVER have I seen anything so dang EZ! This is a total winner in my book. :cheers: :cheers: :woot:

Ok you convinced me...haha

This was the best damn sales pitch ever...hahaha :bow:

[GregWeld]

Dave ---

Wasn't meant to be a sales pitch! But I can tell you -- after messing with EFI stuff for 10+ years now... this stuff is FANTASTIC. Honestly. A lot of EFI "messes" are newbie install issues... and some of the problems are "paying for the tuner to learn and go to school on your motor".

With this EZ EFI from FAST... it was so simple a caveman could do it. Not sure how a guy that can read - could mess it up. Half the wiring my Accel Gen 7 has/had.... Super easy instructions... and I'm running an 8 stack -- which is supposed to be "messy" to tune. I can tell you from experience -- it IS NOT messy to tune... and it's even easier using this new "self learning" system. The motor NEVER ran better... EVER. Once the throttle bodies were dialed in -- which took a few minutes to get them right on the money... it was all "sit back and watch and have fun".

The key is -- a good vacuum signal to the MAP sensor... (in other words -- no T's and nothing else running off that line!)... No header leaks (which introduce air causing the O2 sensor to read wrong).... Having a good fuel pump and pressure regulator. Good ground and power source to the ECM... no messing around here! They've got to be GOOD. AND #1 ---- a CLEAN tach signal. They recommend coming right off the MSD box Tach signal. Which is the way I ran it. Also -- DO NOT locate the ECM near/next to the MSD box! The signal can cause interference.

Fire it off -- and she'll start humming.

I have a Edelbrock Carb intake for my LS6 that I'm going to run in my '37 Ford... was going to just keep it super simple... NOW I'm going to run an 8 stack on that LS6 and this EZ EFI... :woot:

[Revved]

One thing I didn't see mentioned was;

I returned my fuel back into the fuel fill tube. It unbolted from the tank, I welded a steel AN fitting and returned it back into the top of the stock tank.
Just like filling it up at the gas station. One thing for sure, you don't want to pickup fuel from one of those weld in sumps and return on the other side. We have had a ton of problems drag racing with the sump set up wrong this way getting air bubbles sucked into the fuel pump.

Now the supply, you need a better sump. On my stock 66 Nova wagon, I used the stock line to feed the engine and you can hear the pump pickup uncover when it gets below 1/4 tank and a hard corner but it still drives just fine. It's not a race car just a stock 283.

I personally saw a 572 GM crate engine on the Dyno at Fast that made 600hp give or take. They ran 60psi fuel pressure and it was correcting the fuel 30% at then end of the run. I am sure the next run it wouldn't have been so bad. They recommend the aeromotive pump upgrade above the 500hp. That is about all one of the walboro pumps are good for. No one here has talked about the Magnafuel pumps, they are about the best for electric pumps I believe.

As for Fast copying this, don't think so, this is just a dumbed down version of what they already have had for years. An EFI system that uses closed loop fuel to correct the VE table. Nothing new here. 4 Injectors in one throttle body? New? Accel has also had that for years too. Retrotek is new on the EFI scene, if anyone copied anyone it's them.

I know the Fast software engineer Lance has been working on this for at least 2 yrs, Fast contracted someone else to do the EZ EFI but weren't happy with what they got so Lance took what they had and rebuilt the software to work.

Now they are back to work improving the XFI software with new features.

I deal with David Page at FAST quite a bit and we were talking about this out at SEMA last year when I was first looking at this system. He said they had him go in and set up an XFI system on the 572 and he spent about 4 hours getting everything setup and dialed in and pulled a solid number he was happy with. He went to lunch and they pulled off the XFI- stuck on an EZ EFI and in two pulls hit the same peak #s.

XFI has always had a "self tuning" feature. If you are centered in a cell on the VE table and hit L it will self adjust per your W02 reading vs your target air fuel. I've messed around with it a little bit but I've had better luck making manual adjustments. Apparently they've found a way to make it automatic.

I posted up in the other EZ EFI thread about the first one we are in process of doing and with the limited driving we've done so far I was really impressed with how fast it sorted out WOT. We're finishing up some suspension work on it right now but I'm planning putting some miles on it to see what it does for drivability. I'll let you guys know!

[ccracin]

Here is an example of combining the EZ EFI with a Stroked LS Engine. Obviously it will support more than 550HP as advertised. These numbers were obtained after only a few dyno pulls for it to tune itself. After driving, it should get better. Can't wait to drive it!

xMNNt8dpVzc

Check out my build thread for more details!

Enjoy!

[BanditDave]

Very nice man....I am hoping for mid 500s....shoudl have no issue getting there with this set-up.

Dave

[6D9]

I wonder if they plan to make a EZ-EFI that would support 650+ HP??

[Sieg]

I wonder if they plan to make a EZ-EFI that would support 650+ HP??I think they have a quad system option that addresses that.

[zcrz]

Just got my EZ EfI today....ready to install now:D

[ccracin]

I wonder if they plan to make a EZ-EFI that would support 650+ HP??

You can probably get to 650 with one TB. Our engine in the video made 614 at only 43psi fuel pressure. You can go up from there. I think much past 650 and air will be a problem. The dual TB's are in order. :cheers:

[6D9]

You can probably get to 650 with one TB. Our engine in the video made 614 at only 43psi fuel pressure. You can go up from there. I think much past 650 and air will be a problem. The dual TB's are in order. :cheers:

Thanks Chad for the info!

[g356gear]

I think they have a quad system option that addresses that.

Correct...supports up to 1000hp with dual quad option.
http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/graphics/00000002/304155_600.jpg
*Dual Quad Upgrade Kit must be used in conjunction with an original FAST™ EZ-EFI® Self Tuning Fuel Injection Kit, part #30226-KIT or #30227-KIT.

• Easy-to-use setup Wizard provides comprehensive walk-through and system tunes itself

• Base EZ-EFI® System includes ECU, wide-band oxygen sensor, wiring harness, injectors, throttle body and optional fuel pump kit

• Dual Quad upgrade Kit includes second throttle body, injectors and linkage kit

• Bolts on to ANY engine up to 1000+ hp; ideal for hot rodders looking to increase fuel capacity

[camcojb]

yep, and you can make it look like two carbs if you spend a little time hiding the harness............... ;)

[ccracin]

yep, and you can make it look like two carbs if you spend a little time hiding the harness............... ;)

Very nice Jody! :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

yep, and you can make it look like two carbs if you spend a little time hiding the harness............... ;)

So Jody -- being the old tuner boy that you are.... did you fire that dual quad bad boy up - and tell me how well it ran and how quickly it ran "well". IF you've fired it up yet.

Wished I'd have had time to see you when I stopped at Charleys the other day - it was rather spur of the moment - since I'd finished up with the real estate agent "early" so the stop was unplanned.

[camcojb]

So Jody -- being the old tuner boy that you are.... did you fire that dual quad bad boy up - and tell me how well it ran and how quickly it ran "well". IF you've fired it up yet.

Wished I'd have had time to see you when I stopped at Charleys the other day - it was rather spur of the moment - since I'd finished up with the real estate agent "early" so the stop was unplanned.
first thing I did when the car got here was to get it up and running before changing the wiring around. The car fires instantly, faster than any EFI combo I've ever been a part of. I can't say as far as driveability yet, but so far this system really works well.

Jody

[GregWeld]

Good to hear!

My Nomad fires before it can make a full revolution. Just instant like a new car.

They really seem to have a winner in this system!

[Sieg]

yep, and you can make it look like two carbs if you spend a little time hiding the harness............... ;)

Great looking motor Jody. Definitely like the positive feedback the Fast-EZ-EFI system is generating. :thumbsup:

[camcojb]

Great looking motor Jody. Definitely like the positive feedback the Fast-EZ-EFI system is generating. :thumbsup:
thanks, that's one of Charley's "toys". Cool car.

Jody

[rwhite692]

....since I'd finished up with the real estate agent....


So GW when are you moving down to CA?

[GregWeld]

So GW when are you moving down to CA?

Good question.... for a thread jack. :unibrow:

Can't answer it though because I really don't know. Not "moving" technically -- just adding a domicile in a warm climate were I can hot rod a bit. We have a place in Scottsdale -- hate it there. But the kids have made good use of it for college so it's worked out.

I'm doing "due diligence" on the vinoland area first... and then may branch out from there. I have some criteria:

Acreage - no houses on "lots"
Green - and hills
Rural - but with great restaurants
Cute towns
Not too hot in the summer so if you don't want to leave - you don't have to
Close to Pleasanton for the GoodGuys shows
A place people want to come visit
An hour but not more than hour and half from airports

Plug that in a spreadsheet -- it's Napa Valley. Thus looking there first. Not sure I can afford what I want. Prices have not come down there like they have in other places. But I L O V E it there... and I don't even drink!

[Ron in SoCal]

Good question.... for a thread jack. :unibrow:

Can't answer it though because I really don't know. Not "moving" technically -- just adding a domicile in a warm climate were I can hot rod a bit. We have a place in Scottsdale -- hate it there. But the kids have made good use of it for college so it's worked out.

I'm doing "due diligence" on the vinoland area first... and then may branch out from there. I have some criteria:

Acreage - no houses on "lots"
Green - and hills
Rural - but with great restaurants
Cute towns
Not too hot in the summer so if you don't want to leave - you don't have to
Close to Pleasanton for the GoodGuys shows
A place people want to come visit
An hour but not more than hour and half from airports

Plug that in a spreadsheet -- it's Napa Valley. Thus looking there first. Not sure I can afford what I want. Prices have not come down there like they have in other places. But I L O V E it there... and I don't even drink!

Greg - check out Paso Robles area. Almost everything but the close proximity to large airports...

[BanditDave]

Just got my EZ EFI yesterday! I cannot wait to get her running!!!

One question though...

I got off the phone with one of the techs at FAST and he seemed to be in a bit of a rush to get me off the phone but could some explain to me why the EZ EFI could not be run as a Dead Head system?

It says in the directions that you should have a FPR with a vacuum return port so I was like...dang, I have a 5th Gen Camaro fuel pump with a 4th Gen regulator and only a single line to the front. It isn't the end of the world but he didn't necessarily explain why I cannot run it that way. Once he also said I don't need to hook the vacuum line up, then I was confused ever so slightly...lol. If I don't need the vacuum line hooked up to read manifold vacuum, then why should I bother putting it there at all? I have a regulator at the tank. Fuel pressure will be 58 psi at the front.

Shouldn't I be able to tell the system I am at 58psi and run it like that to learn?

I had a rough week at work so could someone drop some knowledge on me please? I am feeling rather dense tonight!

Case in point...this Youtube vid by none other than the Comp group themselves....sure looks dead headed to me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IX1F4V1Yi0&feature=related

Thanks!:cheers: Pics to come!

Dave

[camcojb]

Does your regulator have a vacuum port?

[BanditDave]

Does your regulator have a vacuum port?

My set-up is as follows:

Vaporworx tank
5th Gen Camaro intank pump
4th Gen Camaro regulator...4 bar set-up. I am honestly not sure how this is set-up but my guess is that it does not have one.

My question would be, since I am drawing a blank on this one, is how does the stock 4th gen Camaro/Firebird regulate fuel pressure with its dead head set-up if everything is back in the tank? Does the computer control it? I honestly do not know since all I had to do when I swapped a '99 Camaro LS1 in my Trans Am was use a Vette FPR and that was it, I am missing the actual need to have the regulator at all.

Sorry if I am really missing something obvious here slap me in the face with it because I am feeling really stupid tonight...haha

[GregWeld]

Fuel pressure regulators are just as their name implies - they regulate the fuel pressure. Generally the ones you see on aftermarket installs are ADJUSTABLE and that's the difference in the GM versions which are not.

So this is pretty simple really - you have the pump... the pump makes the pressure... so somewhere in your plumbing - you need to install an ADJUSTABLE and VACUUM REFERENCED regulator...

Most injectors are rated at 43 #'s.... if you bump the pressure up from there - they flow more fuel.

If you mount your adjustable vacuum referenced fuel pressure regulator back near the tank -- you'll only have to add a simple RETURN line from the return side of the regulator back to the tank. All this does is bleed off any fuel pressure beyond what you've set it for (requires a gauge to read and set). You actual intake manifold and injectors would then appear to be a deadhead system.

Now - having said all of this - if your injectors are rated at the installed fuel pump pressure. AND if the ECU can be set to the matching fuel pressure.... then you're good to go. I have the EZ EFI and I just input the pressure I set manually at the regulator so that it has this information. There is no "set" pressure - it will ask you during set up - what injectors you have and what pressure you are running.

[camcojb]

Fuel pressure regulators are just as their name implies - they regulate the fuel pressure. Generally the ones you see on aftermarket installs are ADJUSTABLE and that's the difference in the GM versions which are not.

So this is pretty simple really - you have the pump... the pump makes the pressure... so somewhere in your plumbing - you need to install an ADJUSTABLE and VACUUM REFERENCED regulator...

Most injectors are rated at 43 #'s.... if you bump the pressure up from there - they flow more fuel.

If you mount your adjustable vacuum referenced fuel pressure regulator back near the tank -- you'll only have to add a simple RETURN line from the return side of the regulator back to the tank. All this does is bleed off any fuel pressure beyond what you've set it for (requires a gauge to read and set). You actual intake manifold and injectors would then appear to be a deadhead system.

Now - having said all of this - if your injectors are rated at the installed fuel pump pressure. AND if the ECU can be set to the matching fuel pressure.... then you're good to go. I have the EZ EFI and I just input the pressure I set manually at the regulator so that it has this information. There is no "set" pressure - it will ask you during set up - what injectors you have and what pressure you are running.
good info Greg. That's where I was going with the regulator. Since the guy (who shall remain nameless) that I'm doing an EZ EFI install for won't tell me how he wants things done............. :lol: I'm going to do a rear regulator install like I do on all my EFI conversions. I just run a vacuum reference line back to the regulator. Many said it'd be slow to react, but I haven't seen any issues in the past doing it this way.

One thing I will point out though, fuel pumps do not make pressure............. ;)

Jody

[GregWeld]

good info Greg. That's where I was going with the regulator. Since the guy (who shall remain nameless) that I'm doing an EZ EFI install for won't tell me how he wants things done............. :lol: I'm going to do a rear regulator install like I do on all my EFI conversions. I just run a vacuum reference line back to the regulator. Many said it'd be slow to react, but I haven't seen any issues in the past doing it this way.

One thing I will point out though, fuel pumps do not make pressure............. ;)

Jody


Jody -- I wish they had a "finger" icon.

Remember the audience to which we speak... to most folks - pumps make pressure. :captain:

Actually - should we get into telling this poor guy that VACUUM will make his fuel boil? :unibrow:

[GregWeld]

Jody -- I wish they had a "finger" icon.

Remember the audience to which we speak... to most folks - pumps make pressure. :captain:

Actually - should we get into telling this poor guy that VACUUM will make his fuel boil? :unibrow:



Wait!!! Jody!!! I found a nameless guy that had just the gesture I was looking for!!!



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Barrett%20Jackson%202010/IMG_0363.jpg

[camcojb]

I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

[BanditDave]

Actually guys, I'm an engineer, so nothing you are telling me is shocking my world. Funny enough, thermodynamics is something I am quite good at.

I guess where I am having the issue is I understand how a fuel system is laid out, but if the Comp tech guy tells me I need a vacuum referenced regulator, but don't need to hook up the vacuum line, then why exactly do I need it as I am already regulated back at the tank.

Greg, you said that I can set the injectors to the higher pressure rate...I understand that but if the EZ EFI knows that it is going to have 58psi in the line and that is what it is set for, then why have the additional regulator if that is what it is looking for. In the video I posted the 572 that had the EZ EFI on it look like it was dead headed. The pressure in the line will actually drop a bit as you get into it, which is why I figured you would need a vacuum referenced regulator to boost fuel pressure. Once the tech told me I didn't need to hook up the vacuum line I was a little puzzled.

There in lies my problem. I overthink everything. If I need to have the regulator in line that is fine. I will put it in just after the throttle body as recommended and run a return back to the tank...not a big deal.

My question then goes back to the 4th gen fbody set-up. I was able to run the deadheaded configuration with a simple line from the tank, to a Vette regulator and back to the tank - with a single line to the front...no vacuum reference at the regulator. My assumption then is that the computer handled the adjustments at the rails...is that a correct assumption?

Thanks guys,
Dave

[camcojb]

Actually guys, I'm an engineer, so nothing you are telling me is shocking my world. Funny enough, thermodynamics is something I am quite good at.

I guess where I am having the issue is I understand how a fuel system is laid out, but if the Comp tech guy tells me I need a vacuum referenced regulator, but don't need to hook up the vacuum line, then why exactly do I need it as I am already regulated back at the tank.

Greg, you said that I can set the injectors to the higher pressure rate...I understand that but if the EZ EFI knows that it is going to have 58psi in the line and that is what it is set for, then why have the additional regulator if that is what it is looking for. In the video I posted the 572 that had the EZ EFI on it look like it was dead headed. The pressure in the line will actually drop a bit as you get into it, which is why I figured you would need a vacuum referenced regulator to boost fuel pressure. Once the tech told me I didn't need to hook up the vacuum line I was a little puzzled.

There in lies my problem. I overthink everything. If I need to have the regulator in line that is fine. I will put it in just after the throttle body as recommended and run a return back to the tank...not a big deal.

My question then goes back to the 4th gen fbody set-up. I was able to run the deadheaded configuration with a simple line from the tank, to a Vette regulator and back to the tank - with a single line to the front...no vacuum reference at the regulator. My assumption then is that the computer handled the adjustments at the rails...is that a correct assumption?

Thanks guys,
Dave
I have run rear-bypassed systems with and without a vacuum reference to the regulator. Both ways worked fine for me. With a forced induction setup I like the reference line so I can get additional fuel pressure under boost.

I think you're fine running without it, and just having a static (unchanging) fuel pressure.

Jody

[GregWeld]

You're over thinking it.

The COMPUTER doesn't control the pump. Except to turn it on and off via a relay.

Fueling is controlled by the computer with inputs from the MAP sensor - the ECT - and the biggie -- the wide band O2

What it is doing is first building a VE table -- using your set up inputs - ie., cubic inches - how many injectors - what they're rated at - and the fuel pressure setting. It then can build the VE tables in a basic set up using that... and then modifies the tables as it tunes itself as load conditions vary - and the O2 readings in order to get to the desired (set in set up mode) A/F ratios for,
Idle, Cruise, and WOT.

I would (and do) run a vacuum referenced regulator and actually run vacuum to it. I know they say you don't have to - and the reason for that is the system will tune itself to whatever it reads and needs. But the system is built to run a Vac reference so why not use it as it was intended. Personally - I always figure the engineers know more than I do about the intricacies of their stuff and if THEY say to use it - who am I to second guess them. Just MHO.

I don't think the length of the vacuum run would make any difference - vacuum is vacuum and once there is a vacuum signal (upon start up) and there are no leaks - it should work perfectly.

Your job now is to find out what your injectors are rated at (not sure I know what motor you're trying to set up - or what injection system)... and use that as your start point for set up. The EZ EFI system is based off Corvette injectors I think (memory isn't what it used to be anymore... LOL) but regardless == the set up is going to ask you for a part number (normally they use the FAST supplied injectors so that's easy to find and input) but you'll most likely have to choose "OTHER" when you get to that point in the set up dialog. Again this info all just helps the ECU build a base table to then begin to modify (self tune). The better the base input info - the quicker it will tune itself and the fewer issues you'll have in case you have problems. It', like most things, the details that will make or break EFI. Do it right - do it the way the INSTRUCTIONS tell you to -- and it's EZ.

I wish I could attach the email I just got from a buddy that took my advice and bought an 8 stack EFI and the EZ EFI system ---- then took it to an old school hot rod shop for install. THEY, of course, figure they know more about everything and he's spent many many hours trying to get it sorted out. They're R&R'd the harness - the ECU - the fuel pump... still same problem... until the FAST tech was brought out - and HE input the right injector pressure (not the default number) and it fired right up and ran like a champ. In the meantime, as I've told him several times, READ THE INSTRUCTIONS - this is a ONE WEEKEND JOB... for the AVERAGE GUY. Seriously. These dipwads made it hell week... and probably tripled his cost! UGH! :cheers:

[GregWeld]

I have run rear-bypassed systems with and without a vacuum reference to the regulator. Both ways worked fine for me. With a forced induction setup I like the reference line so I can get additional fuel pressure under boost.

I think you're fine running without it, and just having a static (unchanging) fuel pressure.

Jody


Jody - Ditto this.

On the normal XFI etc style ECU's -- it's an either or game... and where I've seen people run into problems is they tune WITHOUT a vac reference then later someone trying to fix and issue decides to run WITH one... DO THAT and the system needs to be re-tuned.

On a big motor - like I think he's running (a 502?) - going WOT will maybe save a lean spot using a vac referenced regulator? Since you can't TUNE this out like you would on XFI etc. Just wondering out loud here.

[ccracin]

I have the same Engineering affliction as you Dave and also tend to over analyze things. I will be running the same pump module and regulator as you with our EZ system. Everything these guys are telling you is correct. I will help them out with some more details of the system as supplied by FAST. I have also talked to the tech guys there and received very similar feedback as you. If you are asking anything out of the ordinary they tend to be vague. Anyway this should help some.

The throttle body as supplied has 4-88#/hr @ 60psi injectors. They have the system set out of the box at 43psi. At 43psi that is 298#/hr which should be 608hp or so at 100% duty cycle. Since you don't want to run at 100% duty cycle which is when the injector is open all the time, that is why the system is "rated" at 550hp. Which is around 90% duty cycle. Depending on your combination BSFC or efficiency these numbers can very slightly.

Now take what I just posted and forget about it. The system is set up to be EZ! The fuel module you are using with the 4th gen regulator is a bypass system. It just bypasses internal to the module. This helps reduce temperature and aeration. That fpr is set at 58psi. Just type that pressure into the hand held controller and let the computer do the rest. At 58psi those injectors will flow about 362#/hr which would be around 700hp give or take at 100% duty cycle. I would think you will be fine.

The only issue left then would be the vacuum reference. This Vaporwox set-up does not use one and it seems to be fine from the research I have done. I will find out for sure when we are up running. Sounds like you will get there first. Let me know if you don't mind.

I would say, install the Vaporworx set-up, install the EZ-EFI dead headed, set the fuel pressure in the hand held @ 58psi and hit the key. You can use the hand held to monitor the afr at tip in when you hit the throttle to see if the lack of Vacuum ref is an issue.

I hope this helps. :cheers:

[BanditDave]

Greg, Jody and Chad, thank you very very much!!!

You guys confirmed what I was thinking. Sorry I did not mention my set-up:

6.0L LY6 in a '69 442.
GM Performance Parts intake
Setting it up to look like a W-30

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac289/Bandit79403Dave/1969%20Cutlass%20W31/IMG_8905.jpg

Project Red Rocket off this page: http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=27033

Chad, special thanks to you as you have the exact same deal as I. I am planning on eventually going boosted with the Vaporworx set-up and need to give Carl a call to talk to him about the controller he is working on that is vacuum referenced.

Anyways, thanks a lot guys!!! I will let you know of my progress!

[Pantera EFI]

The first statement is for you "engineers".

The "placement" of the Fuel Injector outlet in reference to the Throttle Butterfly will effect Regulator Air Pressure reference location.

In most cases (non-turbo), when the Fuel Injector spray is ABOVE the "air-door", the regulator is referenced to atmosphere.
When outlet is below the Air Door (manifold), the Regulator is referenced to MANIFOLD "below" the air door.

Thus, Delta-Pressure is equal.

The ECU-882-x also uses BOTH a MAP sensor AND a BARO sensor (internal) 100% of the running time.

We have found a difference (NPC vs PPC) with Regulator Pressure Air Reference.

Lance

[ShadowGrayGuy]

I'm in the beginning stages of having a local engine builder assemble a Dart-based 565 BBC for a street/autoX 70 chevelle. Original plan was to install the FAST XFI 1000HP MPFI system on the engine. The builder just called me today and said that FAST sent him an email today along the lines of they are now offering a multi-port version of the EZ EFI system that will support the 700+ hp I am looking for. Anyone else heard about this development? Should I go with this if it's true (can't find in on the FAST website yet) or should I go stick with the XFI system? I guess part of me wants to know "whats the catch?" - what compromises does the EZ EFI system make over the XFI set-up?

Rob

[GregWeld]

Rob --

The MULTIPORT EZ EFI is NOT NEW.... it's just the ECU and the harness and required sensors and O2 etc -- about $900 complete.

There is nothing to "support" -- it will run up to a 72 # injector.... and the fuel pressure is set not only at the regulator - but also input into the "set up" function of the start up. After that - it's just going to run the A/F ratios you choose. There are 3 A/F ratios to select -- IDLE - Cruise - WOT. You set those only if you don't want to use the defaults.

You can operate whatever pump you choose... you don't have to buy theirs. I'm running an Aeromotive pump.

You do not run any dual sync distributor - or cam timing with the EZ ECU...it only controls the fueling... so you can just run a regular MSD distributor - and do your timing and timing curve as you would on a carb car...

Sounds to me like your engine builder is a little behind on the EFI curve....

[ccracin]

Rob --
Sounds to me like your engine builder is a little behind on the EFI curve....


And THAT is the reason for EZ-EFI!

[BanditDave]

The first statement is for you "engineers".

The "placement" of the Fuel Injector outlet in reference to the Throttle Butterfly will effect Regulator Air Pressure reference location.

In most cases (non-turbo), when the Fuel Injector spray is ABOVE the "air-door", the regulator is referenced to atmosphere.
When outlet is below the Air Door (manifold), the Regulator is referenced to MANIFOLD "below" the air door.

Thus, Delta-Pressure is equal.

The ECU-882-x also uses BOTH a MAP sensor AND a BARO sensor (internal) 100% of the running time.

We have found a difference (NPC vs PPC) with Regulator Pressure Air Reference.

Lance

Thanks Lance,

This is all well and good, but I guess I will find out fairly soon whether this thing can run without the regulator, dead-headed. After talking with the Comp Tech and getting nowhere and seeing Comp's video of a 572 being pulled on a dyno with no return line present, or regulator visible, something tells me I can. It is easy enough to add the return line but I am going to, at the very least, get her running first without it and see where it goes.

In your opinion, how would running this system differ from running a typical 4th gen F-body system dead-headed? I am just asking the question as I am curious.

Thanks again!
Dave

[ShadowGrayGuy]

Rob --

The MULTIPORT EZ EFI is NOT NEW.... it's just the ECU and the harness and required sensors and O2 etc -- about $900 complete.

Sounds to me like your engine builder is a little behind on the EFI curve....

Not sure if he is behind - but I know I DEFINITELY AM! :yes: Maybe I misunderstood him on the whole "new product" thing (was driving at the time). Bottom line is, I asked him to build the 565 and use the FAST XFI system, as I have read good reviews about their system, wanted a multi-port EFI system, and thought the EZ-EFI set up was through the throttle bottle only and was limited to about 600HP. He called yesterday and said that the EZ-EFI set up can be purchased as a multi-port system and would be easier to set up and work with than the XFI, but he stated he is absolutely OK with installing and configuring the XFI system if that is what I really want. Sooooo- my question (stupid question of the month #37) is - do I really want the XFI set-up? Will it offer more flexibility down the road or is the EZ-EFI going to work just fine (on a 565cu in chevelle that will eventually see autoX and road course duty)? I just don't want to sell myself/my engine short right now because of my lack of knowledge on the subject at this time.

Thanks for dragging me up the automotive Ladder of Knowledge...

[BanditDave]

Not sure if he is behind - but I know I DEFINITELY AM! :yes: Maybe I misunderstood him on the whole "new product" thing (was driving at the time). Bottom line is, I asked him to build the 565 and use the FAST XFI system, as I have read good reviews about their system, wanted a multi-port EFI system, and thought the EZ-EFI set up was through the throttle bottle only and was limited to about 600HP. He called yesterday and said that the EZ-EFI set up can be purchased as a multi-port system and would be easier to set up and work with than the XFI, but he stated he is absolutely OK with installing and configuring the XFI system if that is what I really want. Sooooo- my question (stupid question of the month #37) is - do I really want the XFI set-up? Will it offer more flexibility down the road or is the EZ-EFI going to work just fine (on a 565cu in chevelle that will eventually see autoX and road course duty)? I just don't want to sell myself/my engine short right now because of my lack of knowledge on the subject at this time.

Thanks for dragging me up the automotive Ladder of Knowledge...

Honestly,

I think you answered your own question. The XFI is by far a more versatile system. The EZ EFI is just what its name implies....easy. For Autocross, etc...where you will be one and off the throttle constantly, making the car much more prone to lean spots, I say stick with the XFI...

I would be inclined, however, to possibly find someone who is certified in XFI tuning. If he is, then so be it, but tuning a fuel injection set-up isn't as simple as slapping a carb on there and being done with it.

Good luck either way!!! I will have results of my EZ EFI set-up soon hopefully....waiting on my tank and my front accessory drive to show up.

Dave

[GregWeld]

Dude! It's your lucky day!

You can now get the XFI WITH the EZ EFI self tuning feature built in!

That way you'll have the best of both worlds -- self tuning -- OR -- all the flexibility you want for later - or in case you want to change some particular parameter!


That's the way I'd go if it was me.

[GregWeld]

Honestly,

I think you answered your own question. The XFI is by far a more versatile system. The EZ EFI is just what its name implies....easy. For Autocross, etc...where you will be one and off the throttle constantly, making the car much more prone to lean spots, I say stick with the XFI...

I would be inclined, however, to possibly find someone who is certified in XFI tuning. If he is, then so be it, but tuning a fuel injection set-up isn't as simple as slapping a carb on there and being done with it.

Good luck either way!!! I will have results of my EZ EFI set-up soon hopefully....waiting on my tank and my front accessory drive to show up.

Dave

BTW --- You won't have any lean spots with EFI..... PERIOD.

[eddiep]

BTW --- You won't have any lean spots with EFI..... PERIOD.

I can't speak on the latest generation of ECMS, but I've spent countless hours tuning the older Fast system (not their XFI), Accel DFI Gen VI and Gen VII, and several GM pcms ... Haha, let me assure you, EFI and lean spots are not mutually exclusive! Even with widebands, getting the transient fueling dialed in can be very time consuming.

[GregWeld]

I can't speak on the latest generation of ECMS, but I've spent countless hours tuning the older Fast system (not their XFI), Accel DFI Gen VI and Gen VII, and several GM pcms ... Haha, let me assure you, EFI and lean spots are not mutually exclusive! Even with widebands, getting the transient fueling dialed in can be very time consuming.



That -- ie., the lean spot(s) is NOT an EFI issue... it's a TUNING issue and or a fueling issue that is physical ie., inadequate sump/fuel aeration/improper pump size etc - which of course, you can't "tune out".

Tuning for either rich or lean (spots) is super super simple. Run your data logger... you set the parameters that you want to see (VE / A:F / O2 / etc)- make your "run" and then review the data and tune accordingly. If you're spending hours and hours then I'm sorry... 'cause it ain't the EFI causing the problem. There is no fuel slosh - no floats - etc in the ECU or the injectors, and the pump should be adequately sized for the BSFC demands of the engine/use.

Some times when playing golf - a buddy will hit an errant shot... to which I will say "Wow! You've got a lot of LOFT!"... they usually have a quizzical look on their faces -- then I say "LOFT... a Lack of F----------g talent".

[camcojb]

I think what Eddie was referring to was how much time it can take to tune the transient areas of an EFI system that's not a self-tuning one. I know there's several tables involved on many of these systems, and adjusting one will affect others. There's been many times when I chase my tail for a while before I finally get rid of a small area that's been giving me fits.

You are correct Greg, it is a tuning issue, but one that can be quite tricky with certain combos and systems.

Jody

[GregWeld]

I think what Eddie was referring to was how much time it can take to tune the transient areas of an EFI system that's not a self-tuning one. I know there's several tables involved on many of these systems, and adjusting one will affect others. There's been many times when I chase my tail for a while before I finally get rid of a small area that's been giving me fits.

You are correct Greg, it is a tuning issue, but one that can be quite tricky with certain combos and systems.

Jody


I think it's a LOFT issue....:rofl:

On another note -- you going to Del Mar?

[GregWeld]

Just a quicky story about EFI installation and the "troubles with EFI" that people rag about all the time...

I dropped off a 383 stroker I'm having built for my brother in laws blown pro street Camaro at a shop that are all friends of mine. They have two EFI jobs - one a buddy/customers 8 stack EFI with EZ EFI - the other a 306 Ford in the owners Ranchero with the complete EZ EFI throttle body etc.

They're having "issues" with both cars... the 8 stack will fire and run - pig fat - and then dies when the plugs finally foul out. Blowing black smoke -- etc.

The Ford won't idle worth a dang - surging - dies when put in gear - and is just generally unhappy.

The installer is telling me that the IAC is 'bad' and this and that and the other thing -- it was all the "EFI wasn't worth a dang..."

On the 8 stack - Brian Macey (FAST EFI University) finds they have the "default" 74 # injectors selected -- when the car runs 36 #'s.... AND there is no vacuum to the vacuum referenced pressure regulator. DOH! Fix those two issues -- fires right up - idles fine. It's an INSTALL problem - NOT the EZ EFI.

I'm looking at the FORD -- and again - they have chosen poorly on the set up screen.... when they should have just selected the "FAST EZ EFI" - they choose custom set up and put in the wrong injector size. Had they chosen the right EFI system.... it would have known what injectors they are using etc. I input the correct information in the set up after choosing "new base tune"....


I also found that they were trying to do a "work around" in setting the TPS. Since they couldn't get WOT physically - they were setting the TPS throttle closed position - and when the ECU asked for WOT position - they were disconnecting the throttle linkage and opening this by hand. Thus "cheating" the linear setting the ECU was looking for. Then they'd reconnect the linkage... which would pull on the Throttle body at a different rate than the ECU was seeing. I told them - You can't CHEAT.

So when we got those couple of things handled --- I asked about the timing... as it was still surging and died with put in gear (automatic). A timing light showed me 33* at idle with the vacuum hooked as they had installed. Without vacuum - it was at 10*....

A quick check shows me they have the vacuum t'd into the MAP sensor line. DOH! I reconnect this to the PORTED vacuum port.... which drops the timing at idle to the 10* (which I then bumped up to 14*). Motor smoothes right out - and no longer dies when put in gear... and off we drive to do the EZ tune... the owner is THRILLED by the end of the 25 minute drive. The motor purrs... has great throttle response and runs like it should.

The moral of this rant ---- It was all LOFT! And lots of it! It was never the EFI...

:lol: :cheers: :woot:

[eddiep]

Greg,

Thanks for the explanations. You definitely won't catch me claiming to be the best tuner out there. I enjoy the hell out of the hobby and take pride in doing the work myself, "LOFT" issue or not. At the very least, I can say I treat my fellow enthusiasts with respect (when it's due).

I can also say I've never had to tow my car to someone else for them to tune it for me. Lot of people can't claim that, right?

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showpost.php4?p=148914&postcount=3

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showpost.php4?p=268324&postcount=2

I'm glad Bob was able to get you fixed up ... Looks like he saved you a lot of frustration there.

Eddie

I think it's a LOFT issue....:rofl:

[GregWeld]

Eddie -- Good job. And I too am a DIY guy... for most all things. I've been messing with EFI for 12+ years now... and have had more tunes and dyno sessions than I care to remember. I also tune myself.

I was teasing you... don't take it too personally... mostly for the statement about the EFI being the cause of the lean spots.

Here's the problem with a public forum like this. Someone makes a statement like that -- other people read it (so it's not just you and I having a discussion about it) -- and then they take that as "the gospel" and start making the wrong assumptions. This doesn't have to be about EFI - it can be about ride height and coil overs - or some blanket statement about carburetors. The point is - that they read some "problem" and then that becomes the truth about that product. My point was that the problems are generally (almost 100% of the time) NOT the EFI - but the tune or the way it was installed - or something OTHER THAN the actual system they purchased.

I personally can't imagine owning a car without EFI... in whatever form.... and I have heard, and witnessed, all the 'issues' out there. It's these 'issues' that people read or talk about that hold people back from 'seeing the light' and stepping up to EFI...
:cheers:

[GregWeld]

Greg,

Thanks for the explanations. You definitely won't catch me claiming to be the best tuner out there. I enjoy the hell out of the hobby and take pride in doing the work myself, "LOFT" issue or not. At the very least, I can say I treat my fellow enthusiasts with respect (when it's due).

I can also say I've never had to tow my car to someone else for them to tune it for me. Lot of people can't claim that, right?

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showpost.php4?p=148914&postcount=3

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showpost.php4?p=268324&postcount=2

I'm glad Bob was able to get you fixed up ... Looks like he saved you a lot of frustration there.

Eddie


Eddie --- Have you had the car on the rollers during a "tune"? Or are you trying to do this all seat of the pants?

[Sieg]

I can also say I've never had to tow my car to someone else for them to tune it for me. Lot of people can't claim that, right?
Eddie
Yeah, but have you ever had to tow it to a gas station?

:rofl:

[eddiep]

Greg,

I hear ya - no worries buddy.

Eddie -- Good job. And I too am a DIY guy... for most all things. I've been messing with EFI for 12+ years now... and have had more tunes and dyno sessions than I care to remember. I also tune myself.

I was teasing you... don't take it too personally... mostly for the statement about the EFI being the cause of the lean spots.

Here's the problem with a public forum like this. Someone makes a statement like that -- other people read it (so it's not just you and I having a discussion about it) -- and then they take that as "the gospel" and start making the wrong assumptions. This doesn't have to be about EFI - it can be about ride height and coil overs - or some blanket statement about carburetors. The point is - that they read some "problem" and then that becomes the truth about that product. My point was that the problems are generally (almost 100% of the time) NOT the EFI - but the tune or the way it was installed - or something OTHER THAN the actual system they purchased.

I personally can't imagine owning a car without EFI... in whatever form.... and I have heard, and witnessed, all the 'issues' out there. It's these 'issues' that people read or talk about that hold people back from 'seeing the light' and stepping up to EFI...
:cheers:

[eddiep]

Greg,

I've been to the dyno a few times over the years, but 99.9% is done on the street or at the track, laptop on the passenger seat. Best case scenario is a buddy manning the laptop so I don't pass as a drunk driver.

My last car had the original Fast "classic" ECU, which was actually sold by Speed Pro at the time, and my current car is an older Accel Gen 7 that’s upgraded to the 5.5 firmware (sounds like you are familiar with the system). Both systems have widebands and you can get the car driving really well in no time. Maybe I'm a perfectionist, but I've found you can get 95% of the way there in the first hour or so [with the wideband system] where there is no discernable driveability issues ... That last 5% of tweaking takes quite a bit of time, at least for me.

First aftermarket ECU I retrofitted was a Haltech F3 into an early 3rd gen Camaro, back when it was far more popular to take off FI for a carb than vice versa!

Eddie --- Have you had the car on the rollers during a "tune"? Or are you trying to do this all seat of the pants?

[eddiep]

No comment :lol:

Yeah, but have you ever had to tow it to a gas station?

:rofl:

[GregWeld]

Yeah, but have you ever had to tow it to a gas station?

:rofl:

TOUCHE!!

:rofl:


But it WAS right after a fresh EFI install!!

So did I run it out of gas --- or was it that dang EFI?

:willy: :rofl:

[GregWeld]

Greg,

I've been to the dyno a few times over the years, but 99.9% is done on the street or at the track, laptop on the passenger seat. Best case scenario is a buddy manning the laptop so I don't pass as a drunk driver.

My last car had the original Fast "classic" ECU, which was actually sold by Speed Pro at the time, and my current car is an older Accel Gen 7 that’s upgraded to the 5.5 firmware (sounds like you are familiar with the system). Both systems have widebands and you can get the car driving really well in no time. Maybe I'm a perfectionist, but I've found you can get 95% of the way there in the first hour or so [with the wideband system] where there is no discernable driveability issues ... That last 5% of tweaking takes quite a bit of time, at least for me.

First aftermarket ECU I retrofitted was a Haltech F3 into an early 3rd gen Camaro, back when it was far more popular to take off FI for a carb than vice versa!

I agree completely.... after the dyno -- it takes lots of seat time! Cold start... is always an issue... getting it to fire on the first revolution (just like a brand new car)... and on and on.

I think that is why I've fallen in love with the FAST EZ EFI... it just works... and seems to get better with each drive... and all I've had to do is DRIVE... it's like gettin' laid by the cheer squad! So easy... and FUN! :woot:

[Sieg]

TOUCHE!!

:rofl:


But it WAS right after a fresh EFI install!!

So did I run it out of gas --- or was it that dang EFI?

:willy: :rofl:

Sorry, couldn't resist that op! :D

[BanditDave]

Hey Guys,

Question on where you guys hooked up your MAP input for your MSD box (ASSuming you are using this on an LS app)? Did you guys T off the EZ EFI's MAP or did you install another sensor in the intake.

I know this may seem counter-intuitive to use on an LS but I have a specific reason.

Open to your thoughts. Judging by what most are using it on, it would appear they are using distributor'd engines and controlling just fuel with this set-up.

Thanks,
Dave

[g356gear]

So is this system MAP or MAf based?? I am assuming there is no timing control...just fuel control based on O2 sensor feedback.

[shaun8541]

Does anyone know if the EZ EFI will handle more than 500 hp? I have 510hp naturally aspirated on my SBF 427 and I want to add a Paxton Supercharger. Paxton says up to a 30% gain in hp over stock. Would the easy work or would I need to step up to the XFI and all the tuning costs etc?

[GregWeld]

So is this system MAP or MAf based?? I am assuming there is no timing control...just fuel control based on O2 sensor feedback.

MAP based... and you are correct. The EZ EFI builds a VE table based on your input of cubic inches and nozzle size - fuel pressure etc... and then self corrects that table with driving and using the readings it gets from the O2. There is NO timing control. Super simple - super effective system.

[GregWeld]

Does anyone know if the EZ EFI will handle more than 500 hp? I have 510hp naturally aspirated on my SBF 427 and I want to add a Paxton Supercharger. Paxton says up to a 30% gain in hp over stock. Would the easy work or would I need to step up to the XFI and all the tuning costs etc?


Personally I'd choose an XFI system once you go beyond N/A. You're going to need effective control of your timing etc and the EZ EFI will not do that.

[shaun8541]

Personally I'd choose an XFI system once you go beyond N/A. You're going to need effective control of your timing etc and the EZ EFI will not do that.

XFI it is. Thanks Greg!

[captainofiron]

After reading this, I am definitely going with the EZ for my 68

I had always been a little nervous about getting the XFI, because of the tuning, and lack of laptop access

but now that I have read so many good things, Im sold

[garymac69]

I have run rear-bypassed systems with and without a vacuum reference to the regulator. Both ways worked fine for me. With a forced induction setup I like the reference line so I can get additional fuel pressure under boost.

I think you're fine running without it, and just having a static (unchanging) fuel pressure.

Jody

Has anyone gone with a rear-bypassed fuel system and does the system work well with the EZ-EFI? Did you run a vacuum line back to the regulator?

The fuel system issue is the main reason I have not jumped into the EFI arena.

Gary

[GregWeld]

Has anyone gone with a rear-bypassed fuel system and does the system work well with the EZ-EFI? Did you run a vacuum line back to the regulator?

The fuel system issue is the main reason I have not jumped into the EFI arena.

Gary

Neither one of my 8 stack motors run a vacuum referenced fuel regulator.... and both run EZ EFI.

[David Pozzi]

I've installed two EzEfi systems, one normal kit with the throttle body &'one retrofit kit that replaced a FAST Classic ECU & harness. This system ran 8 injectors & used the existing fuel pump & throttle body. On this system I installed an MSD 6AL2 programable unit & added a second MAP sensor. It all worked great. With an 8 injector system you can supply enough fuel for more horsepower. At SEMA they had a similar system mocked up & when I asked for the part number, they said they didn't have one for it yet, but it was made of parts they already sell.
I used the MSD 6AL2 to retain the locked distributor already in the engine. The XFI would probably have been a better choice as it would have run the ignition & I hear it can self - tune the same as the EzEfi if desired.
David

[camcojb]

I'm doing one on Charley's 494 cid Cammer motor with two throttle bodies. No vacuum reference, rear mounted bypass. I am tricking the computer to get it up and running, the base map it builds with the correct cubic inches and fuel pressure is a mile off. Won't even run on 8 cylinders to get to the 140 degrees it needs to start adjusting the tune, and keeps killing plugs.

Looks like it'll work, but in the case of a 13:1 700+ HP solid roller Cammer Ford the XFI would have been a much better choice............. :yes: They say it'll support big power with the two 4-barrel throttle bodies, but then they give you a small 190 LPH pump which I don't think supports their claims. Believe that pump is only good for 450 hp or so, 500 max.

[GregWeld]

The XFI would probably have been a better choice as it would have run the ignition & I hear it can self - tune the same as the EzEfi if desired.
David


David -- They have you "fooled" too... chalk another one up to "marketing".
The FAST XFI 2.0 WILL NOT self tune.... not like they've led consumers to believe. It WILL smooth out / correct the VE table... as long as the table is "close" to being correct.

It's not like the EZ EFI where you just answer some simple questions - fire up the motor and have it tune itself without any further input.

The FAST EZ EFI MULTIPORT system is part number 302000 and sells for around $850

[GregWeld]

I'm doing one on Charley's 494 cid Cammer motor with two throttle bodies. No vacuum reference, rear mounted bypass. I am tricking the computer to get it up and running, the base map it builds with the correct cubic inches and fuel pressure is a mile off.



You probably need to recalibrate the Turbulator.....



5hMAaOdNkgI

[camcojb]

You probably need to recalibrate the Turbulator.....



I should have thought of that............. :lol:

[garymac69]

Neither one of my 8 stack motors run a vacuum referenced fuel regulator.... and both run EZ EFI.

What fuel pressure did you set at the regulator?

[GregWeld]

What fuel pressure did you set at the regulator?

45#'s

[shaun8541]

I have a EZ EFI question for you guys. I know they say 500 horsepower is the max for the setup, but I have heard others using this at 600 hp or so.

I have a 1967 Ford Mustang Fastback. I have a Keith Craft 427 pushing 510 hp and set up for a blower. I have a Paxton supercharger for it and figure it will boost it up to around 675 hp or so.

Can I run the EZ still or would I need to step up to the more costly XFI setup? Thanks in advance!

[ccracin]

I have a EZ EFI question for you guys. I know they say 500 horsepower is the max for the setup, but I have heard others using this at 600 hp or so.

I have a 1967 Ford Mustang Fastback. I have a Keith Craft 427 pushing 510 hp and set up for a blower. I have a Paxton supercharger for it and figure it will boost it up to around 675 hp or so.

Can I run the EZ still or would I need to step up to the more costly XFI setup? Thanks in advance!

The answer is 2 fold. Yes the EZ-EFI system will support just north of 600hp. However, the EZ-EFI system will not at this time support forced induction. You would have to step up to the xfi. The good news is they have upgraded the xfi with a portion of the system from the EZ-Efi. I am told it doesn't completely tune itself but does help populate tables on it's own. I hope this helps. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

^^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly what Chad said.

I installed (upgraded the firmware) last week on my buddies XFI system to the 2.0 "self tuning"..... it is NOT self tuning.... but will correct a "close" VE table. And here's t he sweet part of the deal. I used a "canned" tune from their library and she fired right up. A very little adjustment - and we went for a drive. The car never ran better. I still have a couple bugs to work out in one spot (1200 rpm light throttle) but that's it. So it's pretty nice set up.

TO OP: Call FAST and discuss your application.... and see what tune up they have that will get you started. My guess is they have one. But you definitely need a boost referenced capable ECU.

[usa-69z]

Heres a pic of my EZI EFI setup on an 8 stack crossram ..

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd202/dragstripper/STRIPES-BARREL-CARFEST021.jpg

[GregWeld]

Yeah -- nice -- but how does it run?? Are you happy with the ECU etc -- driveability.....

[camcojb]

I finally gave up on the EZ EFI on Charley's cammer Fairlane. It runs and idles nice, drivability is good, but it just won't learn the harder throttle areas. Stays lean, fuel pressure is steady. This is a 700 HP twin throttle body setup and probably never should have been used on this combo.

Couple things I noticed. The fuel pump they gave him for 700 HP is only a 190L pump that will not support that power level in my opinion. Also, I was having big problems with pressure and a loud fuel pump, turns out the filter they gave him is a carb style solid phenolic type filter, can't even blow through it. Swapped to a real stainless EFI 40 micron (on the pressure side) and fixed that.

My opinion is this system should work well on mild to moderate setups, but you need to go to a programmable system beyond that. We're swapping to an XFI for the Fairlane.

[GregWeld]

Jody -- You and I both know the EZ EFI was designed for super simple set ups.... mild cams with good vac signal etc.

The new XFI 2.0 is really a nice ECU.... IMHO a guy can just run the 2.0 - batch fired - with a simple MSD distributor and have a real nice system that is RELIABLE... and simple. I like the way the 2.0 mods the VE table.

[usa-69z]

Yeah -- nice -- but how does it run?? Are you happy with the ECU etc -- driveability.....

Greg , i purchased my manifold & 52mm throttlebodys locally (australia) and bought a harness and ezi ECU from fast . It all went together pretty easily as my manifold has a good vacuum plenum underneath it.. Once i got my timing spot-on it runs nice.. Starts very easily , idles perfect (with no iac too)
has very good response and a very broad tourqe curve. I think ive been lucky with my install as ive read most guys arnt this happy when trying to convert a stack setup electronically. There definatly is shortcomings with the tunability but as i was a complete novice with efi i went the easy route.
the induction has cost probably more than the entire engine but pretty happy so far.

Gav

[GregWeld]

Gav --

I've had fantastic success with both my 8 stack motors... I'm extremely pleased with the EZ EFI and my combinations. Both motors were built for EFI -- with wide LSA cams etc... and I love being able to just change only the A/F ratio and bingo - done...

Your car looks amazing! Love the cross ram set up. :cheers:

[CarlC]

The fuel pump they gave him for 700 HP is only a 190L pump that will not support that power level in my opinion.

Agreed. It's 140hp short if all the stars align.

A GSS340/255lph will get it done with 10% to spare.

[clill]

This all means I will probably have a EZ EFI controller for sale...

[GregWeld]

This all means I will probably have a EZ EFI controller for sale...

Does it come "included" in the trunck of a track car? :unibrow:

[ks71z28]

We have been using the new Holley HP system. It takes a lot of the guess work and for most set ups it is plug and play. We just did a coil on plug ignition (LS style) on a conventional small block. It was pretty cool. check it out in our test car section Also take a look at the carbon fiber intake plenum

http://customworksproducts.com/our-test-car.html

[RECOVERY ROOM]

I'm looking at putting the FAST setup on a very mild 364 nailhead Buick, I'm wondering how that would work out.

[ccracin]

I'm looking at putting the FAST setup on a very mild 364 nailhead Buick, I'm wondering how that would work out.

I think it would work pretty well. As with any FI system, just make sure the fuel supply is solid. Also, in the discussions I have had, make sure you hook the power and ground from the controller directly to the battery. No junction blocks. Other than that, answer the questions on the controller and off you go! :cheers:

[GregWeld]

I'm looking at putting the FAST setup on a very mild 364 nailhead Buick, I'm wondering how that would work out.


Just as easy as Chad said.... trust us!

The key to EFI is that the INSTALLER tries not to think he's smarter than the EFI and just follows instructions. Most of the issues I've seen are self caused by the installer thinking they knew more than the system... WRONG!

[RECOVERY ROOM]

I should be safe then, I'm sure the EFI is smarter than me :lol:

[ks71z28]

The answer is 2 fold. Yes the EZ-EFI system will support just north of 600hp. However, the EZ-EFI system will not at this time support forced induction. You would have to step up to the xfi. The good news is they have upgraded the xfi with a portion of the system from the EZ-Efi. I am told it doesn't completely tune itself but does help populate tables on it's own. I hope this helps. :thumbsup:

We frequently install the new holley HP system. In our shop we tune lots of different systems, and the new Holley stuff is slightly ahead of what else is out there. They have an Avenger system that uses a handheld controller and comes with a TBI unit, similar to a EZ EFI system, and it is completely upgradable to the HP system with just a software change, and can use a laptop. We have a video on our site www.customworksperformance.net under the EFI tab

[64pontiac]

Hey I will chime in here too...... we put the FAST ez efi on a 401 nailhead this summer, and it is AWESOME. We also just finished a Holley HP setup on a vette, and it is AMAZING. Both have their merits.... the Holley system is more advanced, and has way more potential, but it still has to match the application. For a fairly stock nailhead, the FAST is perfect and works so amazing. Our customer can't believe how well it works for a cruiser (by the way he owns both the fast and holley jobs) and how well the nailhead runs. It really is like a new car.

My opinion though is forget the FAST plumbing kit option, their pump sucks (sorry FAST) and go with an aermotive in tank on your factory sending unit. They are affordable and work way better. If you have to do a frame mounted pump, I just used a holley HP and it is a great option. Quietand no cavitation/air lock like the fast pump.

[ks71z28]

Hey I will chime in here too...... we put the FAST ez efi on a 401 nailhead this summer, and it is AWESOME. We also just finished a Holley HP setup on a vette, and it is AMAZING. Both have their merits.... the Holley system is more advanced, and has way more potential, but it still has to match the application. For a fairly stock nailhead, the FAST is perfect and works so amazing. Our customer can't believe how well it works for a cruiser (by the way he owns both the fast and holley jobs) and how well the nailhead runs. It really is like a new car.

My opinion though is forget the FAST plumbing kit option, their pump sucks (sorry FAST) and go with an aermotive in tank on your factory sending unit. They are affordable and work way better. If you have to do a frame mounted pump, I just used a holley HP and it is a great option. Quietand no cavitation/air lock like the fast pump.


I agree, if you want a trouble free system for a stock motor the Holley Avenger is a better way to go, plus you can always upgrade it to the HP system with just a software change.

[TurboNova]

Jody -- You and I both know the EZ EFI was designed for super simple set ups.... mild cams with good vac signal etc.

The new XFI 2.0 is really a nice ECU.... IMHO a guy can just run the 2.0 - batch fired - with a simple MSD distributor and have a real nice system that is RELIABLE... and simple. I like the way the 2.0 mods the VE table.

The self learning feature is exactly what the EZ EFI does but now you can see it, limit the correction, set how quickly it learns ect. All the EZ EFI development was done with the XFI.

It isn't as plug in and run as the EZ but for more than 500hp it is really the way to go.

Personally I still stick to the sequential with cam sync.

[TurboNova]

Neither one of my 8 stack motors run a vacuum referenced fuel regulator.... and both run EZ EFI.

You have to run a vac reference to the regulator because the EZ does know how much fuel pressure you are running. If you don't it wont work properly.

All engines with EFI should have the vac referenced to the regulator.. here is why.

You are trying to tune the fuel curve. If the pressure/vac below the injector changes.. and it does, if you don't compensate for that you will be tuning the fuel curve and the pressure differential too. By keeping the pressure differential constant the ecu just tunes around the actual fuel curve and not the curve and pressure differential. Pressure across the injector remains the same.

This is a basic setting on the EZ that "Bob" forgets. When you enter the fuel pressure in the hand held, it is asking that because it is using the engine vac to determine what the fuel pressure is and tuning based on that.

This is basic EFI101 but even some of the "experienced tuners" out there miss this one.

[ks71z28]

How does the EZ efi determine what AFR the engine will run at? We use the heck out of the new Holley HP system, it is self learning and tuning, but we still have to determine the AFR we want it to run at

[camcojb]

How does the EZ efi determine what AFR the engine will run at? We use the heck out of the new Holley HP system, it is self learning and tuning, but we still have to determine the AFR we want it to run at

you plug in desired a/f at idle, cruise, and wot.

[ccracin]

You have to run a vac reference to the regulator because the EZ does know how much fuel pressure you are running. If you don't it wont work properly.

All engines with EFI should have the vac referenced to the regulator.. here is why.

You are trying to tune the fuel curve. If the pressure/vac below the injector changes.. and it does, if you don't compensate for that you will be tuning the fuel curve and the pressure differential too. By keeping the pressure differential constant the ecu just tunes around the actual fuel curve and not the curve and pressure differential. Pressure across the injector remains the same.

This is a basic setting on the EZ that "Bob" forgets. When you enter the fuel pressure in the hand held, it is asking that because it is using the engine vac to determine what the fuel pressure is and tuning based on that.

This is basic EFI101 but even some of the "experienced tuners" out there miss this one.

So you're telling a guy that has experience with EFI of different types and 2 cars that run very well with a particular setup that they don't work properly?

[TurboNova]

So you're telling a guy that has experience with EFI of different types and 2 cars that run very well with a particular setup that they don't work properly?

Yes, the referenced fuel pressure regulator is a must for any EFI system... especially EZ EFI.

Most people... even experienced tuners miss this one because they don't understand how it works.

[camcojb]

Yes, the referenced fuel pressure regulator is a must for any EFI system... especially EZ EFI.

Most people... even experienced tuners miss this one because they don't understand how it works.

I understand the reason for it, but I will disagree that it's a must on all systems. I've done many with and without the reference line, and they all ran perfect.

[ccracin]

I understand the reason for it, but I will disagree that it's a must on all systems. I've done many with and without the reference line, and they all ran perfect.

I also understand and I also must disagree. When you say "must", it means the system can not function without it. That is clearly not the case. Maybe separating preference from requirements is the issue here. :cheers:

[TurboNova]

No, for it to work properly... and if you actually did some testing with the injectors and saw what they did when you didn't reference them... you would know why.. For the EZ EFI it is a must since the ECU uses fuel pressure as a reference.

Really all efi systems should be this way. People get lazy or think there is no reason for it but there is.

So, if you understand how it works then your saying it is correct for the injector to flow more fuel at an idle than it does at WOT?

[camcojb]

No, for it to work properly... and if you actually did some testing with the injectors and saw what they did when you didn't reference them... you would know why.. For the EZ EFI it is a must since the ECU uses fuel pressure as a reference.

Really all efi systems should be this way. People get lazy or think there is no reason for it but there is.

So, if you understand how it works then your saying it is correct for the injector to flow more fuel at an idle than it does at WOT?

of course not. But referencing the regulator will lower the fuel pressure at idle/cruise/higher vacuum areas, and increase it as the load increases and vacuum drops. In an adjustable system (not the EZ EFI) you can set the injector pulse width to compensate for a non-changing fuel pressure. Now an injector has a minimum amount of time it takes just to function, so if you have a real large (or too large) injector you can have idle issues and the lower fuel pressure with referencing would help. But I've run 95# injectors without issue. I boost reference for blown engines, but again have done many N/A setups without referencing and never noticed a single hiccup.

I am not challenging your knowledge, I'm just a home hobby tuner guy. I just can't see the issue you're describing.

[TurboNova]

of course not. But referencing the regulator will lower the fuel pressure at idle/cruise/higher vacuum areas, and increase it as the load increases and vacuum drops. In an adjustable system (not the EZ EFI) you can set the injector pulse width to compensate for a non-changing fuel pressure. Now an injector has a minimum amount of time it takes just to function, so if you have a real large (or too large) injector you can have idle issues and the lower fuel pressure with referencing would help. But I've run 95# injectors without issue. I boost reference for blown engines, but again have done many N/A setups without referencing and never noticed a single hiccup.

I am not challenging your knowledge, I'm just a home hobby tuner guy. I just can't see the issue you're describing.

ok, so you really don't understand. I am not having a pissing contest either... Greg is a really nice guy and from the same area I'm from too. I am just trying to debunk some bad info that I read.

So, really the reason you touched on is the injector flow... yes they have a minimum time it takes to open "dead time" but what we want it to keep the pressure differential across the injector constant so we just tune the fuel curve and not chasing an injector that flows different amounts of fuel at different engine vac.

when you do not reference the regulator here is what you have. At idle and cruise when you have hi vac the injector will actually flow more fuel without the line connected because the pressure is say 45psi and under vac to it helps pull fuel out of the injector, so....net you have more fuel flow if you have no vac reference. So 45psi and -10psi equals a net of 55psi flow... the injector will flow more fuel in this vac area without the line connected. The problem is worse as the injector size gets larger.

Now if you do reference the regulator you have 45psi fuel pressure... and say -10psi vac you have 35psi fuel pressure and -10psi still equals 45psi net... the injector flow rate stays the same. As the injector sees less vac then it keeps the same net flow rate across the injector no matter what the engine vac or boost does. That is why you actually boost reference the regulator... so the boost does not push the fuel back into the rail. 45psi... 10psi boost 45psi + 10psi = 55psi but still a net of 45psi fuel pressure since the intake has 10psi in it.

You will find that if you use the vac referenced regulator and actually use it all the time it will make tuning easier.

Now "opening time" or "dead time" is something totally different... it is the minimum actual time it takes for the injector to open and start flowing fuel.. That is a different table and not a table for tuning... it should be a compensation for each style of injector. If that table isn't correct then when you ask for a 5% change in fuel you may only be getting a 3% change actually. Having a referenced fuel pressure regulator effects the opening time some since the vac makes it easier to open the injector but that is part of the reason the reference helps there too. Most aftermarket ECUs only use injector dead time as a reference in voltage vs time and don't take in account fuel pressure as a third axis. GM does in the KPA vs flow rate in the LS computers. And a second table as injector flow vs battery voltage.

Injector dead time/opening time is a value added back to the commanded injector pulse width that is programmed into the ecu... it is even more important as RPM gets real hi and the actual time to get the job done gets shorter.

Now that we said all of that... the EZ EFI especially needs this because when you enter the fuel pressure... it assums that the given pressure is at rest with no vac line... that decided how much pressure you have off what the map sensor shows. Then it decides how much PW it needs to maintain a target A/F ratio. It will have a harder time tuning itself when it is assuming the fuel pressure is lower than it really is.

[camcojb]

Boosted I reference it, N/A I sometimes do and sometimes don't. I like to run rear-mounted regulators too so that's a whole 'nother area we might argue about........... :D

I appreciate the info.

[GregWeld]

Brian --

Good discussion!

So.... if the A/F ratio is set for 14:1 and the actual, and set, match - what possible difference does it make? I.E., you set the idle A/F and the ECU with the help of the O2 sensor makes sure that's where you're at.... I would ASSume then that the PW is properly set/adequate etc for the situation?

[ccracin]

Brian --

Good discussion!

So.... if the A/F ratio is set for 14:1 and the actual, and set, match - what possible difference does it make? I.E., you set the idle A/F and the ECU with the help of the O2 sensor makes sure that's where you're at.... I would ASSume then that the PW is properly set/adequate etc for the situation?

I too appreciate this discussion. You said exactly what I was thinking Greg. I ASSumed that this is what made the EZ-EFI easy! You set the A/F ratio you want and based on the spent gasses tested by the wide band O2 sensor the computer changes the settings necessary to maintain that AFR. I understand Brian's explanation and don't disagree with it. My thing is, I went with the EZ-EFI so I didn't have to know all that. We didn't want to spend 5k on the induction and another 5k in tuning and dyno time. And yes I think we all know there are people doing that. I also wanted to do as Jody said and use a rear mounted regulator. As he said this is a whole different discussion. For me I will go back to my previous comment. "Must" implies no other option. I think you Greg have proven that the EZ-EFI system works well when applied to the correct application and without vac. ref. to boot. Jody has also found an application that did not suit it with Charlie's Cammer. In Jody's case, I don't think it had anything to do with the lack of a vac. ref. regulator. To me this concludes it is not a "Must". I'm not trying to maintain a pissing match here either, but as we have discussed in the past, there are many people that read these posts who do not participate in the discussion. For them to read this and feel they "must" do this I think is not right. Anyway, I am comfortable with what he have done so far. When the truck is on the road, I will know whether I just stuck my size 14 in my mouth! :cheers:

I gotta say this, these type of threads can contain the best information. And Brian, I'm not trying to be a Jackwagon. :lol: A debate over this stuff is better than a lot of other things! :thumbsup:

[camcojb]

I too appreciate this discussion. You said exactly what I was thinking Greg. I ASSumed that this is what made the EZ-EFI easy! You set the A/F ratio you want and based on the spent gasses tested by the wide band O2 sensor the computer changes the settings necessary to maintain that AFR. I understand Brian's explanation and don't disagree with it. My thing is, I went with the EZ-EFI so I didn't have to know all that. We didn't want to spend 5k on the induction and another 5k in tuning and dyno time. And yes I think we all know there are people doing that. I also wanted to do as Jody said and use a rear mounted regulator. As he said this is a whole different discussion. For me I will go back to my previous comment. "Must" implies no other option. I think you Greg have proven that the EZ-EFI system works well when applied to the correct application and without vac. ref. to boot. Jody has also found an application that did not suit it with Charlie's Cammer. In Jody's case, I don't think it had anything to do with the lack of a vac. ref. regulator. To me this concludes it is not a "Must". I'm not trying to maintain a pissing match here either, but as we have discussed in the past, there are many people that read these posts who do not participate in the discussion. For them to read this and feel they "must" do this I think is not right. Anyway, I am comfortable with what he have done so far. When the truck is on the road, I will know whether I just stuck my size 14 in my mouth! :cheers:

I gotta say this, these type of threads can contain the best information. And Brian, I'm not trying to be a Jackwagon. :lol: A debate over this stuff is better than a lot of other things! :thumbsup:
I did move the regulator up to the engine and ran a vacuum reference and it made no difference in how it ran or the issues I was having. The issue with Charley's car is that the EZ EFI is not the right system for that combo, he's going to an XFI.

[TurboNova]

I did move the regulator up to the engine and ran a vacuum reference and it made no difference in how it ran or the issues I was having. The issue with Charley's car is that the EZ EFI is not the right system for that combo, he's going to an XFI.

Agreed, that the EZ EFI is good for what it was intended for... not something as radical as that car maybe.

I do totally disagree that the vac line does not have to be connected to the regulator in the EZ especially.. it will run rich in most cases if you do not do this. If you switch it from not hooked up to hooked up then it will take time to learn out the areas where it was trying tune around the perssure differential. The more vac the engine makes the more this will be a problem.

I am saying this for the exact reason you are saying it "does not matter" so other people on the board that read this do it the right way and don't try to over think it... like you said if you wanted to know this then you would buy a tuning EFI system. In this case just follow the directions and don't think about it.

When I do things... especially EFI.. there is only one way to do things.. the right way. This is a clear cut right way to do things, so why would you do it any other way?

[TurboNova]

Brian --

Good discussion!

So.... if the A/F ratio is set for 14:1 and the actual, and set, match - what possible difference does it make? I.E., you set the idle A/F and the ECU with the help of the O2 sensor makes sure that's where you're at.... I would ASSume then that the PW is properly set/adequate etc for the situation?


PW proper... no.... works yes... here is why. Without the regulator hooked up and lowering the fuel pressure to maintain the same flow, the ecu has to trim out the extra fuel and really lower the numbers to get there. It sometimes can do this and sometimes cannot. There are several guys complaining about having engines that run too rich and the EZ will not tune it out. Most have found this when there was no vac line connected. If you read the CPG Nation board.. this is one of the basic settings people mess up.

I had a shop in your neck of the woods calling and calling me, since I was up there... had a EZ... one of Bobs... 10 different people whith o scopes looked at it and no one could get it to run... I went and reset the wizard.. went through the screens... hooked up the vac line and wow it runs without any black smoke. They were also told there was no need to hook up the line.. not true.

You understand what the regulator is actually doing? Correct?

The rear mounted regulators... yeah.. another problem there.. I had two burned up offroad cars because of that last year.

[camcojb]

Agreed, that the EZ EFI is good for what it was intended for... not something as radical as that car maybe.

I do totally disagree that the vac line does not have to be connected to the regulator in the EZ especially.. it will run rich in most cases if you do not do this. If you switch it from not hooked up to hooked up then it will take time to learn out the areas where it was trying tune around the perssure differential. The more vac the engine makes the more this will be a problem.

I am saying this for the exact reason you are saying it "does not matter" so other people on the board that read this do it the right way and don't try to over think it... like you said if you wanted to know this then you would buy a tuning EFI system. In this case just follow the directions and don't think about it.

When I do things... especially EFI.. there is only one way to do things.. the right way. This is a clear cut right way to do things, so why would you do it any other way?
I wasn't speaking of the EZ. I've only done one of those, and it doesn't work for the combo (750 HP 494 Cammer Nascar twin throttle body engine). I made several changes to get the vacuum up, but being rich is not the issue...............

Again, we're just discussing your claim that the reference line must be used. I was speaking of all EFI, but even with the EZ Efi I'm not sure I agree. It's obvious many people have them running fine without it. Is it a good idea to help it self tune, apparently so. A "must"......... no. I have tuned too many EFI systems without it to agree.

It's all semantics. When you speak in absolutes you'll invite people to give examples that contradict what you're saying. If you said that the system is designed to have the reference line attached, and it helps the computer learn the tune much faster, I don't think that anyone would disagree with you. It's the absolutely "must have" wording that doesn't fly, because we have examples of that not being true.

[camcojb]

The rear mounted regulators... yeah.. another problem there.. I had two burned up offroad cars because of that last year.

I've done countless rear regulators without burning any of them up. GM does it on the late model Vettes and other cars. Of course they bump the fuel pressure in those, which I also do. There are several cars on this site that are tracked and street driven with the rear mounted regulators, either as a separate regulator (still bypassing, just doing it at the rear of the car) or using the GM Vette filters that regulate/bypass right from the filter.

Why won't this work? Well, it will, but curious why you think it's wrong. One of the main benefits is eliminating all that hot bypassed fuel from heating the tank and leaving you stuck on the side of the road (ask the dozens of Power Tour cars that experienced that from year to year how much fun it was).

[TurboNova]

I've done countless rear regulators without burning any of them up. GM does it on the late model Vettes and other cars. Of course they bump the fuel pressure in those, which I also do. There are several cars on this site that are tracked and street driven with the rear mounted regulators, either as a separate regulator (still bypassing, just doing it at the rear of the car) or using the GM Vette filters that regulate/bypass right from the filter.

Why won't this work? Well, it will, but curious why you think it's wrong. One of the main benefits is eliminating all that hot bypassed fuel from heating the tank and leaving you stuck on the side of the road (ask the dozens of Power Tour cars that experienced that from year to year how much fun it was).

Put an engine on the dyno sometime with 8 O2 sensors and play around with regulator placement and you will see why.

Even with running the regulator in the front and looping the rails can show as much as 1 AFR point from side to side.

What stops the fuel from just bypassing the fuel to the tank insead of going to the engine? It will follow the easiest path.

There are other ways to dealing with hot fuel than bypassing it in the back.

bypassing in the rear works for a low performance engine but when you start to get something that really needs fuel flow it will not work. You will end up with burned valves and or broken pistons.

[TurboNova]

I wasn't speaking of the EZ. I've only done one of those, and it doesn't work for the combo (750 HP 494 Cammer Nascar twin throttle body engine). I made several changes to get the vacuum up, but being rich is not the issue...............

Again, we're just discussing your claim that the reference line must be used. I was speaking of all EFI, but even with the EZ Efi I'm not sure I agree. It's obvious many people have them running fine without it. Is it a good idea to help it self tune, apparently so. A "must"......... no. I have tuned too many EFI systems without it to agree.

It's all semantics. When you speak in absolutes you'll invite people to give examples that contradict what you're saying. If you said that the system is designed to have the reference line attached, and it helps the computer learn the tune much faster, I don't think that anyone would disagree with you. It's the absolutely "must have" wording that doesn't fly, because we have examples of that not being true.

So you agree how it works... but since I explained why it is the right way to do it... and since you can make it work the wrong way then... it's not necessary? Come on. I can make an engine run with the .008 piston to wall clearance... does that make it right? No.

Look at all the OEM pump engines that don't use PWM pumps and they all have vac referenced regulators... OEM changed to that in the early 90s.

It is an absolute. Must have and the right way. If you don't agree then you are saying the injectors should flow more fuel at part throttle.... and you already said that isn't the case. Besides how hard is it to hook up a vac line?

[camcojb]

So you agree how it works... but since I explained why it is the right way to do it... and since you can make it work the wrong way then... it's not necessary? Come on. I can make an engine run with the .008 piston to wall clearance... does that make it right? No.

Look at all the OEM pump engines that don't use PWM pumps and they all have vac referenced regulators... OEM changed to that in the early 90s.

It is an absolute. Must have and the right way. If you don't agree then you are saying the injectors should flow more fuel at part throttle.... and you already said that isn't the case. Besides how hard is it to hook up a vac line?
still don't get the bolded part. There's more than fuel pressure that affects how much fuel the injector sprays. Of course idle needs less fuel than wot or load areas. But you don't HAVE to lower the fuel pressure to accomplish that, you can change the pulse width. I'm not arguing which is "more correct" I'm simply saying it is not a "must" to run the reference line. If it was a "must" then eliminating would not allow the engine to function. That's how absolute a "must" is. Do you get what I'm trying to say? I can take a car you've tuned with the reference line and disconnect the line, re-tune the VE or fuel tables, and make it still run fine. I'm speaking of an end-user tunable system, though I ran Charleys car with EZ EFI both ways and it ran, started, and drove perfectly. The problem with that combo is learning harder throttle areas.

[camcojb]

Put an engine on the dyno sometime with 8 O2 sensors and play around with regulator placement and you will see why.

Even with running the regulator in the front and looping the rails can show as much as 1 AFR point from side to side.

What stops the fuel from just bypassing the fuel to the tank insead of going to the engine? It will follow the easiest path.

There are other ways to dealing with hot fuel than bypassing it in the back.

bypassing in the rear works for a low performance engine but when you start to get something that really needs fuel flow it will not work. You will end up with burned valves and or broken pistons.

I've done a few 700-850+ rwhp cars with the regulator in the rear. Haven't broke one yet, and I'm not afraid to drive them hard. I had one that broke after I sold it, but that wasn't due to a rear regulator; that was nosing it over with an EFI tank that wasn't baffled well enough to work at 1/2 tank or lower with the acceleration of that particular car. Those were boost referenced though, so you'll be happy about that. :thumbsup:

My Cobra was n/a and had a front regulator, but still no reference line. Ran fantastic. All of these cars had O2 bungs on both sides and the sides were always within a couple tenths in A/F; nowhere near a full point difference. That was with comparing the computers wideband to the in-dash wideband gauge, to the handheld Innovate.

As far as fuel taking the path of least resistance, it seems like you'd see the pressure issues on a gauge. I have the gauge on the rail, and on the regulator, and I am not seeing any movement, fluctuation, or dropping pressure on mine.Seems like the regulator is working fine if the pressure is dead steady, a/f basically match side to side, and the car runs great. I do not doubt what you've seen, just that I do check and don't see it on mine. A/F differences from side to side can be due to heads, intakes, etc. as you know. Interesting that you've seen a difference with just moving a regulator. I've just been doing it a different way and my stuff runs good and doesn't blow up. And I never do a mild engine................ :lol:

Again, it's just the "must" wording that I cannot agree on.

[TurboNova]

still don't get the bolded part. There's more than fuel pressure that affects how much fuel the injector sprays. Of course idle needs less fuel than wot or load areas. But you don't HAVE to lower the fuel pressure to accomplish that, you can change the pulse width. I'm not arguing which is "more correct" I'm simply saying it is not a "must" to run the reference line. If it was a "must" then eliminating would not allow the engine to function. That's how absolute a "must" is. Do you get what I'm trying to say? I can take a car you've tuned with the reference line and disconnect the line, re-tune the VE or fuel tables, and make it still run fine. I'm speaking of an end-user tunable system, though I ran Charleys car with EZ EFI both ways and it ran, started, and drove perfectly. The problem with that combo is learning harder throttle areas.

Ok, if you still don't get it then lets look at the straw example.

This is the whole key... think of it as a straw that you blow through.. if you blow normal with no pressure or vac then you blow x amount of air. (WOT sea level 0 vac and 0 pressure)

If you have a suction on the other side and blow the same pressure then you actually get more air through the straw. (engine vac)

If there is someone blowing on the other side of the straw then you need to blow more pressure than they do to get the same amount of air out the other side. (boost)

So the way you are tuning is... there is actually more differential pressure at idle and cruise (more fuel flow)... then you lower the PW more than you should have to since the line is disconnected.... then you chase the fuel injector fuel flow change AND the VE air flow through the table while you are tuning.

This will get you in big trouble when you have say a 4.6 mod engine with 160# injectors that makes decient engine vac at part throttle. You can't lower the PW enough to make up for the extra flow the injectors are flowing....

It is a must and the correct way to do it PERIOD... if you say it isn't then you are just passing bad.. efi info around yet again.

It is the exact same reason you boost reference the regulator... and everyone does that.

[Sieg]

Appreciating the dialog gentlemen, and learning a lot. Keep it up! :thumbsup:

[TurboNova]

I've done a few 700-850+ rwhp cars with the regulator in the rear. Haven't broke one yet, and I'm not afraid to drive them hard. I had one that broke after I sold it, but that wasn't due to a rear regulator; that was nosing it over with an EFI tank that wasn't baffled well enough to work at 1/2 tank or lower with the acceleration of that particular car. Those were boost referenced though, so you'll be happy about that. :thumbsup:

My Cobra was n/a and had a front regulator, but still no reference line. Ran fantastic. All of these cars had O2 bungs on both sides and the sides were always within a couple tenths in A/F; nowhere near a full point difference. That was with comparing the computers wideband to the in-dash wideband gauge, to the handheld Innovate.

As far as fuel taking the path of least resistance, it seems like you'd see the pressure issues on a gauge. I have the gauge on the rail, and on the regulator, and I am not seeing any movement, fluctuation, or dropping pressure on mine.Seems like the regulator is working fine if the pressure is dead steady, a/f basically match side to side, and the car runs great. I do not doubt what you've seen, just that I do check and don't see it on mine. A/F differences from side to side can be due to heads, intakes, etc. as you know. Interesting that you've seen a difference with just moving a regulator. I've just been doing it a different way and my stuff runs good and doesn't blow up. And I never do a mild engine................ :lol:

Again, it's just the "must" wording that I cannot agree on.

Put 8 O2 sensors in the headers then tell me how constant they are, especially on a bank to bank EFI system. Moving the regulator from one at the end of the one rail to a setup with a y feed in and out made a huge difference. Two collectors are just an average of 4 cylinders each. You can have two really lean and two really rich and wouldn't even see it.

If you really think you will see pressure drop on a gage you are kidding yourself.. you lose fuel flow long before it actually hits the gage. By the time the gage actually moves you are OUT of fuel.

[GregWeld]

Brian --

I'm calling Brizio to have him hook up a vac line to the pressure regulator.... Well -- maybe not -- this is something I'd rather do myself. When the car was built - the line was run - just not used - so is a simple deal now. SMART HUH?!

Just 'cause the next time I see you (SEMA) I can say I did it right.... ">)


It all makes "sense" --- but on a little crate motor... I'm doubting it changes much... but then again -- I'm TOTALLY ready, willing, and able, to learn. You'll never hear me say that I know it all.

[camcojb]

Ok, if you still don't get it then lets look at the straw example.

This is the whole key... think of it as a straw that you blow through.. if you blow normal with no pressure or vac then you blow x amount of air. (WOT sea level 0 vac and 0 pressure)

If you have a suction on the other side and blow the same pressure then you actually get more air through the straw. (engine vac)

If there is someone blowing on the other side of the straw then you need to blow more pressure than they do to get the same amount of air out the other side. (boost)

So the way you are tuning is... there is actually more differential pressure at idle and cruise (more fuel flow)... then you lower the PW more than you should have to since the line is disconnected.... then you chase the fuel injector fuel flow change AND the VE air flow through the table while you are tuning.

This will get you in big trouble when you have say a 4.6 mod engine with 160# injectors that makes decient engine vac at part throttle. You can't lower the PW enough to make up for the extra flow the injectors are flowing....

It is a must and the correct way to do it PERIOD... if you say it isn't then you are just passing bad.. efi info around yet again.

It is the exact same reason you boost reference the regulator... and everyone does that.

First off, your example of a 4.6 Ford with 160# injectors is not something that's seen every day. :lol: Yeah, with that large of an injector idle issues are a concern.

I have not had a single idle issue yet doing it my way. I've never had the pulsewidth go "too low" at idle and cause issues. I've never "chased" the tuning because of this.

You seem to take it personally that I have made it work well in a way different than you think it should be. You've given good advice, I see the purpose of referencing the regulator. But with a rear mounted regulator it's just one more line to run, plus I'm not sure there may not be an issue with the length of the line. Couldn't see an issue with the forced induction builds and the line length, but never tried on N/A.

I don't try to hand out bad info, I simply try to help with things that work for me. I have no problem with your view and would recommend people follow your advice, you're the pro. What I don't agree with is you keep saying that the reference line must be used. That's where you lose credibility. It's obvious that it isn't required or none of my cars or any of the other examples in this thread would run. I mean, they wouldn't even start up according to the "must" claim. That's my point.

[camcojb]

Put 8 O2 sensors in the headers then tell me how constant they are, especially on a bank to bank EFI system. Moving the regulator from one at the end of the one rail to a setup with a y feed in and out made a huge difference. Two collectors are just an average of 4 cylinders each. You can have two really lean and two really rich and wouldn't even see it.

If you really think you will see pressure drop on a gage you are kidding yourself.. you lose fuel flow long before it actually hits the gage. By the time the gage actually moves you are OUT of fuel.

I understand all that, was simply asking a question. You may not mean to but you come across as talking down to people if they question you, and for someone who instructs that's not good. Just some feedback, take it as you wish.

[clill]

I'll stick with Jody's tuning. I know his works well.

[Ummgawa]

I'll stick with Jody's tuning. I know his works well.

Same here, I've seen numerous bad-as-sed cars come from Jody's hand. Plus, he's a righteously nice dude to boot. His cred here is well established.

[Vegas69]

Since this is clearly Brians meat an potatoes, I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. With that said, there is perfection and damn close. Engines don't require perfection to run well or cars likely wouldn't exist. I'm pretty certain my 850 holley isn't perfect. :D

[camcojb]

Since this is clearly Brians meat an potatoes, I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. With that said, there is perfection and damn close. Engines don't require perfection to run well or cars likely wouldn't exist. I'm pretty certain my 850 holley isn't perfect. :D

I agree Todd. I'm positive he has much more experience and knowledge, and I appreciate his participation on the site. He gets paid for what he knows, and we get some of his knowledge for free, that's good for all of us.

We'll agree to disagree on the definition of "must". ;)

[ccracin]

We'll agree to disagree on the definition of "must". ;)

This is all I was talking about as well! :cheers:

[Stuart Adams]

Jody :thumbsup:

[TurboNova]

First off, your example of a 4.6 Ford with 160# injectors is not something that's seen every day. :lol: Yeah, with that large of an injector idle issues are a concern.

I have not had a single idle issue yet doing it my way. I've never had the pulsewidth go "too low" at idle and cause issues. I've never "chased" the tuning because of this.

You seem to take it personally that I have made it work well in a way different than you think it should be. You've given good advice, I see the purpose of referencing the regulator. But with a rear mounted regulator it's just one more line to run, plus I'm not sure there may not be an issue with the length of the line. Couldn't see an issue with the forced induction builds and the line length, but never tried on N/A.

I don't try to hand out bad info, I simply try to help with things that work for me. I have no problem with your view and would recommend people follow your advice, you're the pro. What I don't agree with is you keep saying that the reference line must be used. That's where you lose credibility. It's obvious that it isn't required or none of my cars or any of the other examples in this thread would run. I mean, they wouldn't even start up according to the "must" claim. That's my point.

I have tuned 4 ~ 4.6 Fords this week that had that same combo. You are chasing the fuel curve weather you want to believe it or not.. that is fine. Take it personally... no not at all, you just don't seem to get it. One more line to run is no big deal... it's just cheap vac line... line length shouldn't matter.

It's not my credibility... it would be yours to keep arguing that it really does not matter. If you really understood what was happening you would say... I will always do it that way now that I understand. To tell people bad information that is does not matter or everyone here has always done it this way and it worked isn't a good argument.

I never said an engine wouldn't start.. or run... just not "right" most EZ EFI systems wont run very well at all. The real problem is where you try to lean out the idle down around the 1.2-1.4 ms of PW and you keep getting a rich condition you can't get out.

Like I said, you can machine an engine with .008 piston to wall clearance.. would it run.. sure.. but would you do that? No.. So if you now it is better and the proper way to run the regulator with the vac line then why wouldn’t you?

Lets face it the industry is full of people who see one thing and copy everyone else who is doing it that way. If the points leader uses brand X oil then it must be the best stuff out there. If this guy uses these gaskets then everyone should use that gasket. There is more bad info out there than there is good especially in the EFI world. My day usually consists of helping people tune their stuff after 5 other guys just took their money and gave them the tune out of the XFI folder. Part of why I have done well as a EFI tuner is I do a lot of dyno testing trying different stuff and have access to some really cool datalogging stuff most people don't even get to play with ever. I try to help out on a few boards and offer advise on what works and what does not. If I see something people don't get or understand then I try to help them in the right direction at least. This topic is something that I cover in every EFI101 class I teach and usually get blank stares from the students that say... wow everyone else does not do that. When I draw a picture on the board... most get it. There is lots of other stuff like, adding fuel stops detonation.... fuel is power... lots of stuff we debunk on the chassis dyno live at our classes.

Not taking anything personally and not talking down to anyone just trying to educate some bad info.

[TurboNova]

Brian --

I'm calling Brizio to have him hook up a vac line to the pressure regulator.... Well -- maybe not -- this is something I'd rather do myself. When the car was built - the line was run - just not used - so is a simple deal now. SMART HUH?!

Just 'cause the next time I see you (SEMA) I can say I did it right.... ">)


It all makes "sense" --- but on a little crate motor... I'm doubting it changes much... but then again -- I'm TOTALLY ready, willing, and able, to learn. You'll never hear me say that I know it all.

If I see you at SEMA the first beer is on me... you will see me at the FAST boost a lot after Wednesday. I will be up in your area the week before that working on a LS1 V12 with Motec.

[TurboNova]

I understand all that, was simply asking a question. You may not mean to but you come across as talking down to people if they question you, and for someone who instructs that's not good. Just some feedback, take it as you wish.

Don't mean to at all. Typing can be taken very differently than what is meant. I am open for questions, that is why I keep answering.

[camcojb]

I have tuned 4 ~ 4.6 Fords this week that had that same combo. You are chasing the fuel curve weather you want to believe it or not.. that is fine.
ok, I understand you may tune (4) 4.6 Mod motors with 160# injectors on a regular basis, but come on............:lol: I doubt there's many here that run that size injector. Yes, I already said when you're dealing with something like that you can have idle issues and lowering the fuel pressure with the reference line would be beneficial. I also said that I was mostly talking about EFI in general, the systems that are end-user adjustable. However I tried with and without the reference line on the EZ EFI system and it adjusted for the difference in a few seconds, and after that ran exactly the same. As far as chasing the fuel curve, I start with a base fuel map with BS3, FAST, Accel, etc. that will need everything changed anyway. Even the ones that take engine info to build a base map are off a lot, some so far they won't even start and idle. Simple datalogging shows exactly where and how much you're off, and with some simple math you adjust the VE or fuel map numbers (or maf curve or? depending on the tuning system and EMC) and datalog again.

I never said an engine wouldn't start.. or run... just not "right" most EZ EFI systems wont run very well at all. [/B]The real problem is where you try to lean out the idle down around the 1.2-1.4 ms of PW and you keep getting a rich condition you can't get out.


not true. You kept saying you "must" run the reference line. Even when I gave you the option to admit that "must" is not correct you clung to it. "Must" means there is no option, it will not work. That's why we've been going in circles here. But then you said if you disconnected the reference on an EZ EFI that it would have to learn the new fuel map which it does; so maybe it's not a "must". As I found out with the one I worked on it ran great at idle with or without that line. You also mentioned many tuners still don't use one; their cars must run I would assume.

I've been doing my own tuning since 1994 when I had a program to burn my own proms. I have done many N/A cars with and without reference lines. Not a single one had an idle issue or tuning issue. I have seen countless other cars in that period of time that didn't use one and ran fine. I am not challenging your knowledge. I can see why you want the reference line there. It makes sense to me and I'll start using them again on the N/A stuff. The only reason I didn't use them is because of the rear mounted regulators I use, and I was told by a tuner that the length of line would cause tuning issues. So thank you for telling me it won't. The only part that we disagreed on was that it is required on all EFI systems. If you would have said it's the best way to go and here's why, it can help with the EZ EFI if you have a fat idle and can't get rid of it, or if you're dealing with a large injector and having idle issues this can help we would have had no disagreement.

My only point was on the "must" part of what you were saying. Hopefully you get what I'm saying, because I really can't explain it any better. Thanks again for your time and info, it is appreciated.

[TurboNova]

I say "Must" because it is the right way to do it for no other reason. I still think even after all the posts you still don't get it. It's not lowering the pressure but more the reason is the pressure differential between the intake and injector remain the same, no matter if you are in boost, vac or no vac.

Do you get that part?

Then the ecu just tunes the actual fuel curve and not the fuel curve and the pressure differential too. This gives the ecu a better ability to tune at the lower PW for any injector size.

If line length was an issue then your rear mounted regulator wouldn't work under boost. The long line will make the change slower but it will still work just the same.

[camcojb]

I say "Must" because it is the right way to do it for no other reason. I still think even after all the posts you still don't get it. It's not lowering the pressure but more the reason is the pressure differential between the intake and injector remain the same, no matter if you are in boost, vac or no vac.

Do you get that part?

Then the ecu just tunes the actual fuel curve and not the fuel curve and the pressure differential too. This gives the ecu a better ability to tune at the lower PW for any injector size.

If line length was an issue then your rear mounted regulator wouldn't work under boost. The long line will make the change slower but it will still work just the same.
I get it and I give up.............. :faint: :lol:

[ccracin]

I get it and I give up.............. :faint: :lol:

:faint: :lolhit: :beathorse :clap:

Go Steelers! How's that for agreeable Jody?

[GregWeld]

Brian = I never met up with you at SEMA.... that dang show is so "distracting" isn't it? :lol: The texts start flying with "where are you - and meet me heres" that I don't ever seem to get done what I want to!

I'm planning a lunch for the crew at Divers after Thanksgiving.... Are you going to do any tuning on that turbo diesel Cadillac? Last time I was there it was all painted and Nick was wiring it up... the chassis was in paint and looked like it was time to sit the body back on it.

[TurboNova]

I will be tuning the Caddy and the 53 Chevy Accel DFI too, when they are reddy. That is usually when it is 100% done.

[uxojerry]

This SBC is getting installed my my 65 Corvette Coupe. It is mated to a Tremec 6sp with a final drive of .50.
Take Care - Jerry Clements
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Click on the pics and they will enlarge. Im not sure what Im doing wrong to cause this problem.

[Kawaden]

Jerry, please keep us posted on this! I am very interested in the Inglese setup for my project.

[Coursey]

Does anyone have pics of how they ran the gas lines and wiring harness?

[supremeefi]

Jerry, please keep us posted on this! I am very interested in the Inglese setup for my project.

What are you going to control it with?

For an IR even the XFI 2.0 doesn't have some of the calibrations available that will make tuning easier. You might want to look into other systems as well.

And I've been following this post. Jody and others- I think one of the things that gets lost here is that although your applications run good with or without referenced fuel pressure or whatever, maybe they can run better with it. I think that's part of what Brian was driving at

Jmo.

[camcojb]

What are you going to control it with?

For an IR even the XFI 2.0 doesn't have some of the calibrations available that will make tuning easier. You might want to look into other systems as well.

And I've been following this post. Jody and others- I think one of the things that gets lost here is that although your applications run good with or without referenced fuel pressure or whatever, maybe they can run better with it. I think that's part of what Brian was driving at

Jmo.
I agree Mark. I just had an issue with his "must have" wording that he would not back down from. We weren't arguing over which way was best. I've just seen it done too many times and if it isn't perfect you sure cannot tell in the driveability of the car.

I will be running the vacuum line from now on. The only reason I didn't was I was told by another well-known efi guy that I could not run the line if the regulator wasn't up close to the rails; the length would cause all kinds of issues. I've since figured out that isn't necessarily true either.

[Kawaden]

What are you going to control it with?

For an IR even the XFI 2.0 doesn't have some of the calibrations available that will make tuning easier. You might want to look into other systems as well.

And I've been following this post. Jody and others- I think one of the things that gets lost here is that although your applications run good with or without referenced fuel pressure or whatever, maybe they can run better with it. I think that's part of what Brian was driving at

Jmo.

I was thinking the FAST EZ EFI controller. What other systems are available? I live in Australia so we don't see much down here.

[supremeefi]

The EZ will work, just ask Greg Weld.
But it runs richer in areas than is optimum. To mask drivability/tuning issues the IR's normally like it when you throw more fuel at them.

But with that said, neither the EZ or even the XFI are able to tailor the fuel curve between each stack as related to load and rpm, it's all or nothing.
With the Accel you can trim each cylinder by load and rpm. Think about it, if you have a butterfly imbalance, where will it show up more, at small or large throttle openings?. The answer is small, but if you can only change the balance with one setting you're losing tuneability and throttle response potential throughout the rpm range. I gaurantee you the difference in fueling requirements from idle to wot changes, you can't address that with the EZ or XFI. That's why you need to run them richer than if you had that tuning parameter.

[camcojb]

The EZ will work, just ask Greg Weld.
But it runs richer in areas than is optimum. To mask drivability/tuning issues the IR's normally like it when you throw more fuel at them.

But with that said, neither the EZ or even the XFI are able to tailor the fuel curve between each stack as related to load and rpm, it's all or nothing.
With the Accel you can trim each cylinder by load and rpm. Think about it, if you have a butterfly imbalance, where will it show up more, at small or large throttle openings?. The answer is small, but if you can only change the balance with one setting you're losing tuneability and throttle response potential throughout the rpm range. I gaurantee you the difference in fueling requirements from idle to wot changes, you can't address that with the EZ or XFI. That's why you need to run them richer than if you had that tuning parameter.

good info Mark. My IR setup was perfectly happy being lean at cruise but really liked a richer idle a/f, no matter how I adjusted the blades. Had a big solid roller too which affected that.

How does an average guy monitor each cylinder individually to take advantage of this feature? I can see that on an engine dyno with headers that have pyro's or a/f bungs at each pipe. I'm thinking most of the guys never get their engines on an engine dyno and do their tuning on a chassis dyno or on the street and wouldn't have that type of exhaust to be able to individually monitor a cylinder. Would an infrared temp gun on the tubes give enough info? I do remember that feature and played with it a little, but I didn't have a real good way to monitor things other than a temp gun. This was a blown small block, not an IR setup but we were chasing a problem.