Front Sub-Frame Comparisons

[tyoneal]

Hello:

Now that a number of, "New" front sub-frames for the Gen 1 Camaro's have been brought to market, Does anyone have any information on how they stack up against each other as far as actual performance is concerned?

For the people who actually Drive their cars hard on a road track, How would/do you set up a 1st gen Camaro without building a complete racing chassis, for optimum performance based on the products available now?

I don't think I have enough background on the subject to hit cc.com yet and post these questions, so any answers or links you know of that can supply this type of information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Ty O'Neal

[Bowtieracing]

I think this is never ending question until some magazine set all of them to some kind of chassis jig use professional equipment to measure all out of em.

Steve ( streetfytr68 ) has a lot of knowlegde and driving experience stock vs aftermarket subs so make a search at suspension section or pm him. Hes opinions have help me a lot:cheers:

[TravisB]

WE have an art morrison under a car but its not done yet......if it works as good as it looks it will be hard to beat

[XcYZ]

There's no correct answer, too many variables.

BTW, the newest Hot Rod Magazine has a list of the more popular subframes for 1st Gen F-Bodys. They don't do any comparisons, they just put pictures and links to the various manufactures, such as DSE, Art Morrison, etc.

[Silver69Camaro]

The only thing I can say is both our subframe and DSE's will both drive superbly. Trying to compare the performance of the two is truly splitting hairs. The only thing you have to decide is what look you're trying to go for (fabbed look or hydroformed).

Both would also have equal track-performance potential...IF the driver can push it that far.

[mazspeed]

I think a full frame morrison would be hard too beat. :D

[Steve Chryssos]

Hello:

...For the people who actually Drive their cars......

Ty,
I doubt that either clip has been available long enough to get a first hand account from end users. Clips have just started to enter the marketplace. I would guess that most cars are under construction or recently finished.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I think both are excellent. I am sure The DSE chassis is well designed, and I know Art won't sell anything but killer stuff that works. I personally tend to lean towards the fabricated look and aluminum Corvette components. I also like the fact the AM is $1000 less.

[PTAddict]

StreetFtry68 is right - neither of these two frames has been out long enough for much user feedback. That said, I just ordered the DSE sub. For what it's worth, here was my reasoning:

- Good engineers are going to get the basics pretty much right. There's not much rocket science to knowing what to do with FVSA, SVSA, camber gain, bump steer, roll center, etc. Some systems are engineered - I'd put DSE and Morrison both in that category - and some either aren't or don't make a point of proving it.

- The Tuckers are ride and handling engineers by training and experience. They have a particular philosophy about suspension design - about springing, damping, and anti-roll - that I agree with. Call it the European school.

- I wanted to buy a well-sorted front and rear (Q-link) combo that was thoroughly tested together, and supported by the same company. I really love the lat-dynamics 3-link, and clearly understand its theoretical advantanges, but I wanted a one stop shop when it came to getting the out of the box setup in the ballpark, as well as advice when it came to tweaking at the margins. (BTW, in a year or so, I'm sure the lat-dynamics folks will be there).

- I've been a customer of DSE for 7 years, since Kyle was the only employee. The personal character and professional service has been absolutely impeccable the entire time. And the fact that my wife and I are both MEs, like the Tuckers, probably accounts for the fact that I like their understated style of communication.

- The cost difference is not much in the total context of one of these projects, and it's partly deceptive - for instance, if you have DSE powder coat your frame, they assemble it for you. No biggy, but if you're paying a pro to do it, the shop time for assembly adds up.

At the end of the day, I can still understand anyone going Morrison instead. I have a Morrison Tri5 frame under my wife's 55 Belair, and it's a great piece of craftsmanship that makes the car drive like a late model sports sedan. And their customer service was also terrific.

I guess the bottom line for me is this - compared to the last full-on project I undertook 6 years ago, we now have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to choosing almost every major system of these cars. And there are so many great people building businesses on this hobby, you almost want to give them all some business. Flip a coin, you can't lose.

[tyoneal]

To all:

Thanks to all for the input.

Maybe I should address it this way:

The rear suspension will be the Lateral Dynamics 3-Link.

This said, are there any preferences one way or the other with the sub-frames currently available?

Given you could choose any front suspension to go with the 3-link, what would it be, and why?

It doesn't matter whether or not it is on the market yet or not. I guess if it would make a big difference I could always investigate having one built.

What aspects from a road racing suspension would be desirable to have on a car that would see the street and track?

What types of adjustability would be really nice to have on a 1st Gen Camaro, or any other muscle car?

Could you please explain the, "European school", of suspension?

What are the other schools and what differences are there between them?

I know these are broad questions, but I'm trying to understand the bigger picture so your responses and be put into context.

Thanks a million for all your help and indulgence.

Best Regards,

Ty O'Neal

[Bowtieracing]

Ty,

To explain "European school" is little bit difficult but you get it if you go and take a test drive of BMW M6 and after that jump it to chevy pick up. Then you know. With no offence for chevy or any other.

As Steve said all these new subframes are so new at actual results are hard to get. i am having hard time too to make my mind what to do. My needs are front steer rack , 9,5" wide front wheels. But i dont like "fabbed look" . But i really cant afford 7k DSE frame either. So i think i go with DSE speed 2 kit and BRP r&p kit. But after fabbing and parts i am quite close to 4000$ . And i still keep wondering how much more i could gain on full DSE sub????

And then theres a rear suspension...All the years 4 link suspension has been advertised for drag race purpose and suddenly its for curves :willy: So i am really confused too what to do. When i asked this question from DSE i got answer " we have seen improvment on "all numbers" with quadra link" For me - that wont say much.

[Steve Chryssos]

You guys have it easy. When Stielow and I bought our "bolt on" C4 clips back in 1999, we basically got screwed. The difference is that Mark is a suspension engineer, so he immediately went to work on alterations. But I'm a marketing guy. So I looked at the clip and said "C4 A-arms & spindles--cool!" I probably spent $12K over the years in do-overs to make the clip right on the 3rd try (Stielow cautioned me after try #1, but I didn't listen).


Ty,
Anyone of the top three clips will work excellent. Those include, AME, DSE, and 21st. In your case, I would go with the 21st Century clip. Mark will have already have a head start on setup experience thru Steve Rupp's car. In your particular case, that would be the tie-breaker for me. You will not be disappointed.

Bowtieracing,
I have a friend down from Maine, Jake Parrott, who is helping me prep my car for the Bullrun Rally. As the ultimate reimbursement, I let him have back to back test drives in a OE clip car with full DSE Speed 3 upgrades vs. a 21st clip car. This is especially generous, since neither car belongs to me. Numerous other distinctions exist between the two cars, but I assure you that the clip car is light years ahead of the OE car. Jake has also driven my car. The numismatists will be pissed to hear that statement, but it is true nonetheless. If you are close to the idea of purchasing a clip, pull the trigger. You will be thrilled at how easy it is to drive your car fast.

[dhutton]

I've been struggling with this decision for quite some time but haven't been able to pull the trigger due to a relatively tight budget. On ebay someone is now offering a Heidt's subframe complete with brakes for $3700. It is also on their website. Has anyone seen one of these in person at a show? I know it's probably not in the same league as the DSE, AME or 21st Century but I'm interested to hear from anyone who has seen one. Thanks.

[98ssnova]

Hello every body I to have been pondering what front clip to go with I just finished reading the article in Hot Rod. Now I am more confused I was think about sending my clip to ATS but now maybe AME is the way to go also form a budjet standpoint what abour BRP I know that they did the Year One camaro. I think that I need to get an aftermarket clip because of the plain fact that in a year or two I will not be happy with a modded OE clip. Also any body heard or Scott's Hotrods they tig weld the whole sub frame and it has a lifetime guarantee? Please help the confused. I don't mind spending the money just want to get a good piece that is gonna make me happy at the end of the build don't want to be like man I should have spent the extra cash on an aftermarket sub. Rant over sorry:lateral:

[PTAddict]

You guys have it easy. When Stielow and I bought our "bolt on" C4 clips back in 1999, we basically got screwed. The difference is that Mark is a suspension engineer, so he immediately went to work on alterations. But I'm a marketing guy. So I looked at the clip and said "C4 A-arms & spindles--cool!" I probably spent $12K over the years in do-overs to make the clip right on the 3rd try (Stielow cautioned me after try #1, but I didn't listen).


I have one of those C4 bolt on clips myself! And I now have it working pretty well - but not to level I expect from my new DSE.

To Ty's question, I too would go with whatever Mark Magers at LD recommends. The one thing I do think is good about the Morrison is the custom steering arms to allow lower rack position, and therefore lower motor position - but an inch up or down on motor C.G. isn't enough to make a decision on.

On the Heidts clip, I don't know much about it, but given all of the choices out there, here's what I would use as a sort of basic litmus test:
- Can the manufacturer provide data (graphs) of Camber Gain, Bump Steer, Front View Swing Arm, Roll Center, and Side View Swing Arm? If they can't, then it's a crap shoot how well the clip will handle. Bonus: have they done any FEA to determine torsional rigidity of the clip?

On the 4-link handling question, there was quite a thread here about a year ago on 3-link vs. 4-link. Bottom line, from my perspective: 3-link is ultimately a superior design on paper, but both can be engineered to provide excellent results and it depends more on the goals of the designer and the execution than the number of links per se. And to greatly oversimplify, the Quadralink, compared to the LD 3-link, seems to be engineered to give up some handling performance ideals, and adjustability, in order to simplify packaging and installation. But the people who have it seem to love it ...

The European school, way overly simplified again, tends to use stiffer springing and damping with less anti-roll bar. This results a firmer ride for a given amount of roll stiffness, but allows the front/rear wheel pairs more independence, keeps the damping ratios more constant, and reduces pitching and instability over uneven surfaces. Basically, the American school corners flatter, the European school feels more stable and "planted".

And once again, to echo Steve's point, I have to say it's great to be able to make choices between so many good options.

[68protouring454]

there is no doubt, the stock dse prepped speed 3 oe clip went well but you still had to make it turn, while the 21st clip was so much smoother and made you feel the car was planted through out the turn, HUGE difference, i drove the dse speed 3 then directly went to the 21st clip car, same roads
very cool, and told me all i wanted to hear AFTERMARKET CLIP!!!!! IS A MUST
i do not care what the static set up is or the camber curve, the aftermarket front steer clip is so ahead of the oe prepped clip.

[Bowtieracing]

Bowtieracing,
I have a friend down from Maine, Jake Parrott, who is helping me prep my car for the Bullrun Rally. As the ultimate reimbursement, I let him have back to back test drives in a OE clip car with full DSE Speed 3 upgrades vs. a 21st clip car. This is especially generous, since neither car belongs to me. Numerous other distinctions exist between the two cars, but I assure you that the clip car is light years ahead of the OE car. Jake has also driven my car. The numismatists will be pissed to hear that statement, but it is true nonetheless. If you are close to the idea of purchasing a clip, pull the trigger. You will be thrilled at how easy it is to drive your car fast.

Hello Steve and thank you again for clear and understanable comments. I am happy to have you hear because not many of us have not had the change to do test with different clips or systems.

Since i will be looking around 3000 usd with parts only to get my clip where i want it the AM and 21st clips are quite close. And i have allready bought the C6 Z06 brakes it makes even more sence.

As important as technical aspects are for me i want certain visual look too. And the AM clip looks somehow little bit "fragile" to me. Yes i 110% sure it is way stronger than anything wich came from factory but if you take look of this picture you know what i mean:
http://www.artmorrison.com/albums/Camaro-FrontClip/MG_4399.sized.jpg

And yes the white backroud and un painted frame does tricks to that picture but still i think the inner fender are going to fly away??

Then there is a 21st clip. But did i understand correct it mounts the engine 1" higher than others? I would rather not cut the tunner for T56 and like the idea of lower "point of weight" . Otherwise i like the looks of the 21st frame more. http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/attachment.php4?attachmentid=3419&d=1149044409

I believe both clips need some trimmin to innder fenders to look right ?

I am affraid this leads me eventually baying DSE clip:willy:

[PTAddict]

Then there is a 21st clip. But did i understand correct it mounts the engine 1" higher than others? I would rather not cut the tunner for T56 and like the idea of lower "point of weight" . Otherwise i like the looks of the 21st frame more.

The comment about the high rack position was based on the observations of another (very reliable) source about a year ago. I would not treat that as definitive information - I would talk to 21st Century directly, and check with with people who have used the clip, like Steve1968LS2 on this forum.

[68protouring454]

The comment about the high rack position was based on the observations of another (very reliable) source about a year ago. I would not treat that as definitive information - I would talk to 21st Century directly, and check with with people who have used the clip, like Steve1968LS2 on this forum.
if you read steevos post and do a search the 21st DOES raise the motor, i know with a 4l80e no cutting is required just some heat and massaging to install. its a very nice piece and drives even better

[Bowtieracing]

I was so happy with my "master plan" and now i thinking new sub:willy: Do you think DSE frame will come cheaper in future?

[Steve Chryssos]

You guys are on the right track. I'm sure that Any one of the top three clips offer excellent geometry. Any one will deliver obscene levels of performance and make your car incredibly easy to drive at speed. My current experience is limited to stock, 21st, and my own modified ARDF clips. But I have implicit confidence in AME and DSE's suspension geometry.

So instead of pounding on the walls screaming for camber curves, I suggest you sweat the details such as "Do I want the fabricated look or the formed look.

Now lets clear up some misconceptions that I read above:
1) AME's clip is NOT --under any circumstances--flimsy. Art has been building race car chassis for decades and maintains a full time engineering presence. That experience has led them to learn the difference between strong and heavy. As one of the few companies with the ability to mandrel bend rails, their clip deserves serious consideration. It's probably the best combination of price and features on the market.
2) Hydroformed rails or not, DSE's clip does not look anything like a stock clip in person. The coolest thing about this product is the stamped crossmember that allows the rack to sit exactly where it needs to be. This is hard to accomplish with ordinary square tubing.
3) As Jake stated, raised engine position is a non-issue from a performance standpoint and a minor issue with respect to installation. Mr. Hammer, meet Mr. Trans Tunnel. Mr. Trans Tunnel, meet Mr. Hammer.

[Steve Chryssos]

P.S.
Although I recommended the 21st clip for Ty's project, I would probably pick the Morrison clip for my own project.

[PTAddict]

But I have implicit confidence in AME and DSE's suspension geometry.

So instead of pounding on the walls screaming for camber curves, I suggest you sweat the details such as "Do I want the fabricated look or the formed look.


Agreed completely. But if you're not buying from one of the "top three", I would not have implicit confidence in the geometry. Putting a tall ball joint on a Mustang II spindle might create geometry every bit as good as a well-engineered C5/C6 vette-based setup. Then again - probably not. The only way to know is to ask.



3) As Jake stated, raised engine position is a non-issue from a performance standpoint and a minor issue with respect to installation. Mr. Hammer, meet Mr. Trans Tunnel. Mr. Trans Tunnel, meet Mr. Hammer.

I don't know about the late-model style T-56, but I've swapped in a couple of aftermarket t-56s with adapter plates and early-style (longer) bellhousing. These require some significant clearancing at the front of the tunnel, and fit very tight in some other spots. If you raised the motor another inch, I don't see how you would get away without some tunnel fabrication - although to keep it in perspective that kind of fab is pretty easy compared to, say, roll bar or mini-tub.

[Bowtieracing]

Now lets clear up some misconceptions that I read above:
1) AME's clip is NOT --under any circumstances--flimsy. Art has been building race car chassis for decades and maintains a full time engineering presence. That experience has led them to learn the difference between strong and heavy. As one of the few companies with the ability to mandrel bend rails, their clip deserves serious consideration. It's probably the best combination of price and features on the market.
.

I hope i didnt sound like meaning its flimsy or anything related. It dosnt need a rocket engineering to understand at its way stronger than anything wich came from factory. Personally i think it looks ( not so wide frame rails as stock) little bit "airy" ( is there even a word like airy??? ) at least in the picture where there is lot of gap between inner fender and frame rail. But after some trimming of the inner fender to make it go with same line as frame i think it wont differ from stock any more.