Are the pre LS engines becoming a thing of the past? [Archive]

rwhite692

02-04-2007, 12:01 AM

All the cool kids are building an LSx.

I, however, am a geek. :D

Seriously though, I just prefer the look of the traditional pre-LSx engines more, as a personal preference for my current project. I'm sure I will do one sooner or later...

Going LSx is getting easier by the day, and that can only help the industry and the hobby. The aftermarket induction options are really just starting to get rolling for LSx, we are in for some really exciting stuff in the months/years to come. Being (relatively) plug-and-play already has a LOT of people going LSx who probably would not have attempted modernizing a traditional pre-LSx engine with EFI, etc....Just my $.02 -Rob

rocketrod

02-04-2007, 07:06 AM

Not yet, but its days are number.

Streetking

02-04-2007, 08:39 AM

youthpastor

02-04-2007, 10:09 AM

For me, the LSX motors have the best in performance and are lightweight but I still like the look and the sound of the old school motors. With all the new subframes, turnkey LSX motors and parts available, more people will be going that way. My modded C6 Z sounds wicked, but there is something about the ground pounding nasty sound of a bad ass muscle car with a big block or a hot small block.

SW
Yep- I'm having the same debate everyday in my head as far as which motor to put in my '68 Camaro. My only concern is: will the voices ever stop or do they offer medication for something like this:_paranoid

black2002ls

02-04-2007, 10:10 AM

As long as you have purists and traditionalists they will have a home.

Derek69SS

02-04-2007, 10:14 AM

I just put an LT1 in my car a year ago, and I already feel like my car is "dated"... like when you see a car with a TPI, you know it was done 15 years ago. :_paranoid

71Nova

02-04-2007, 11:29 AM

I think it is slowly going to go the way of the ford flat head. People are still totally into the flat head, but just slower nestalgia type guys.

Mean 69

02-04-2007, 12:09 PM

For sale: 400 ci SBC, bowtie block, crower shaft rockers, the works. Also, shelf full of hot SBC parts, ported heads, cams, rockers, pistons, headers, carb's, and much more. Owner giving up on SBC's and going full bore into LS.

Seriously though, I am not sure I will build another car that will use the older technology. I'm building a pretty neat "budget" LS motor for the 70 Camaro right now, and if it all turns out like I expect it to, and I have every belief that it will, it'll be bye-bye time for all of the older stuff.

Mark

(p.s. New motor is LS2 sleeved block, L92 heads, LS7 crank/dry sump setup, L76 or possibly sheet metal intake, modest cam. Confident that it will be an easy 600+ crank HP motor, current estimates for all-in costs, less than $8k, brand new)

Leadfoot1

02-04-2007, 12:14 PM

Well,

Have you guy's read the April CarCraft? They bought a 6.0L truck engine (Iron) for like 1100$ added a carb set up (for simplicity they say, even tough i don't seet the point) but only added a cam and headers and spitted out 480 ponies!

They say next month is well over 500 with nearly a few bucks in it!

Hard to argue with that no?

I sold my LS1 combo just a while ago because i was feeling it was already dated (also because i made a smokin deal) as we all now see LS2's popping everywhere! It didn't even make it to the frame!

I'm waiting for someone to crash a Trailblazer SS to pick on it. :unibrow:
Starting with 400 Horses should be nice.

I have a guy i'm talking with who has 2 400 blocks for sale cheap too, 'wsa thinking 434 SB...YouthPastor, if you find those pills, LET ME KNOW!!!:willy:

Lead

02-04-2007, 12:35 PM

For me, the LSX motors have the best in performance and are lightweight but I still like the look and the sound of the old school motors. With all the new subframes, turnkey LSX motors and parts available, more people will be going that way. My modded C6 Z sounds wicked, but there is something about the ground pounding nasty sound of a bad ass muscle car with a big block or a hot small block.

SW

SW,
Do you have a sound clip or vid of the bad ass C6? What mods are done to the car?
David

02-04-2007, 12:36 PM

FWIW I have a 327 and a 350 sitting in my garage...collecting dust
LSX is the future

Mr.VENGEANCE

02-04-2007, 12:46 PM

what are the main reasons an older motor cant be as reliable as a new motor?

TravisB

02-04-2007, 01:13 PM

I just picked up an 18 dgree busch motor......790hp on pump gas. Rpm range is a lil up there but still awesome power with only 9.1 comp. I will agree and say most seem to be going with the LSx in different variations of size and power adders. I heard rumor nascar was testing LSx stuff not sure if it is true or not.....

jeff s

02-04-2007, 01:58 PM

I'll say it again, the gen 1 sbc is going the way of the flat head and will be looked at in a similar way soon. There will always be enthusiasts into them though.
The sealing methods, crossbolted mains, light weight and superior head flow of the LS are just too great to overcome. The ports in the SB2's in Nascar look more like an LS7 than a Gen 1.
Also price out a EFI'd gen 1 compared to an LS, you'll be suprised.

XcYZ

02-04-2007, 04:36 PM

I heard rumor nascar was testing LSx stuff not sure if it is true or not.....

I heard there are Regional divisions of Nascar looking at carb'd crate LS2's as a spec motor.

There's not doubt that the future is LSx, but the Gen 1/2 motors as well as BBC's will never go away.

Mizfit

02-04-2007, 04:55 PM

I heard that about nascar as well. I don't think SBC or BBC will ever go away either. But LSX's are becoming more and more popular:D Which we like:hail:

Stuart Adams

02-04-2007, 05:34 PM

LS for me. I can't believe the heads for these motors and how great the mileage per hp is.

Streetking

02-04-2007, 05:51 PM

SW,
Do you have a sound clip or vid of the bad ass C6? What mods are done to the car?
David

No sound clip, I need to figure out how to do that. It has headers, hi flo cats, LPE mass air and cam, 540rwh..

There is no question the LSx motors make big power and drivablitiy is much better than the "old school" motors. They are light and really help the handling of these cars. I just think they need more "dress up" to look right in a muscle car. They need a set of turbos or a supercharger bolted on to fill up the engine compartment.

SW

Hooligan

02-04-2007, 07:09 PM

Will someone please bring to market a budget new Hemi?? Is that to much to ask??

Mizfit

02-04-2007, 07:36 PM

"There is no question the LSx motors make big power and drivablitiy is much better than the "old school" motors. They are light and really help the handling of these cars. I just think they need more "dress up" to look right in a muscle car. They need a set of turbos or a supercharger bolted on to fill up the engine compartment. "

SW

Do you mean like this?
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2677/file1binrv5.th.jpg (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=file1binrv5.jpg)
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1578/file2binvo6.th.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=file2binvo6.jpg)

Sales@Dutchboys

02-04-2007, 07:59 PM

I really think its what ya like.
Were picking up the 383 that travis was putting in his car before He got a
busch motor. I like the older type motors myself im sure you can get a LS motor to make as mush HP but just dont care for them. But Will have to say that they look great in some cars Ive seen on here such as Steve Rupp's
Jeff hansons and so on.

Leadfoot1

02-04-2007, 08:23 PM

Hey,

With all those old school engines to be freeing up...Its the #'s matching gang that will be happy! Those BB LS-7 And the likes missing in action to restorers might get a chance to get back where they belong. Lets build a site featuring the castings/ serial #'s that are getting available to them!!!!!!:P

:D

Lead.

Streetking

02-04-2007, 08:30 PM

"There is no question the LSx motors make big power and drivablitiy is much better than the "old school" motors. They are light and really help the handling of these cars. I just think they need more "dress up" to look right in a muscle car. They need a set of turbos or a supercharger bolted on to fill up the engine compartment. "

SW

Do you meean like this?
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2677/file1binrv5.th.jpg (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=file1binrv5.jpg)
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1578/file2binvo6.th.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=file2binvo6.jpg)

Oh yes..:thumbsup:

SW

MarkM66

02-05-2007, 09:17 AM

Gen I isn't going anywhere for awhile. There area ton of great aftermarket parts for it, and it can still make power right up there with the LSx. LSX has a very small weight advantage over a iron block al head gen 1.

I also think it's a better 'looking' engine. LS takes a little more effort to clean things up, coil pack relocation, valve covers, intake etc.

Used Gen 3 stuff is super cheap though, guys are damn near giving that stuff away.

Not fair comparing the SBC to a flat head. The Gen I is much closer to the Gen III, then flat head to SBC.

BBC is still king. :D

Musclerodz

02-05-2007, 09:43 AM

Gen I stuff is not going anywhere, just dated for a modern build such as Pro-Touring vehicle where it might be fine for a hot rod. I have donated my LT1 i had built to the "69 Blazer just because I did not want to "date" my '68 Camaro build which will have an LS2 now unless LS7's get real cheap.:rolleyes: It is way to easy to install cam and headers in a LSx and get 400 rwhp which takes some doing to get out of a Gen I.

Mike

G-Body

02-05-2007, 10:17 AM

I'll take an early model small block anyday, sure the new LS's are nice and its funny how the new LS-X of reggie jacksons is running a carb. hummmmm
your not going to beat a well built SB chevy dollar for dollar, i really enjoy the new ls ecs as long as they continue to destroy 4.6's with ease but guys trust me that SB has been aound since 55 its not going anywhere theres been fads come and go but the SB will always be at your local race tracks from dirt to drag cars and i agree probaby more popular to hot rodders for nostaglia reasons but again hard to argue with the power and cost of it !good post

nitrorocket

02-05-2007, 08:49 PM

Me like LS1's :D

Basically, it is a factory, full aftermarket race version of the Gen 1 SBC.

Efi69Cam

02-06-2007, 07:16 AM

BBC is still king. :D

I feel like I should agree, but when CNC'd L92 heads are flowing in the 350+ range, and 454 cid LS engines becoming available (LSX block) it seems silly to cart around the weight of a BBC.

CraigMorrison

02-06-2007, 07:16 AM

http://images19.fotki.com/v354/photos/4/453080/4247992/DSC05719-vi.jpg

Who says a 1st gen can't be modern? All aluminum, 538hp, Wilson Manifolds TB and fuel rails, FAST electronics and weighs in at 355lbs! I've been checking weights of the LS engines and this setup is comparable to if not a few lbs lighter. Light weight, good power, looks good in the engine compartment :thumbsup:

Having said that, if we do another PT project (like a 2nd gen Camaro:unibrow: ) it will probably have an LS in it.

MaxHarvard

02-06-2007, 07:23 AM

As long as there are shade tree mechanics and people like myself who cannot afford the shiny LSX motors (i wish i could)... you'll always have carb'd iron blocked motors. They are an affordable way to have fun :)

Ummgawa

02-06-2007, 07:23 AM

That is Very Cool!!:thumbsup:

MarkM66

02-06-2007, 08:31 AM

I feel like I should agree, but when CNC'd L92 heads are flowing in the 350+ range, and 454 cid LS engines becoming available (LSX block) it seems silly to cart around the weight of a BBC.

Well, there are aluminum BBC blocks, ;) . LSX block is iron.

BBC, cubes to go 700+, heads that flow 500cfm = KING! :D

If you were to build both to max cid, I think pricing would be very close, with BBC making more power due to more ci.

BBC Brodix Al. Block; $5200
C5R; $6,400
LS7; $3,500

Sure both can make awesome power, but I think if you wanted max n/a power, BBC would be the way to go, IMO. :thumbsup:

Steve1968LS2

02-06-2007, 09:00 AM

The old school stuff isn't going anywhere.. in "our little world" the LSx stuff is common. In the whole world "not so much".

The SBC is still the best bang-for-the-buck out there, however the LSx is superior in almost every area other than cost.

Efi69Cam

02-06-2007, 09:06 AM

Leadfoot1

02-06-2007, 10:27 AM

Hey! have you guy's read my post at the beginning? Stop talking costs of old School vs Gen3! At a 1000$ for a complete engine, plus, say another1500$ for the conversion (If you really want to do this) you get 480 Horses.

I'd be curious to know how much your engine costed Craig? With the fast set up,$ and aluminumn bock,($)...Just the block costs more than the price of the complete LSX engine...and it makes "only" 538 Hp.

If you want to talk looks, just look at Steve's! Yeah, tastes are personnal, but if you don'y like that engine, it might be more than taste that's your problem! (and you haven't heard it either!)

I just can't wait 'till next month... We'll take that conversation up again.

Anyway, i think old school will always have its place, but we can't deny that LS engines are "Today" and the future.

Hey i even had a luck when i got my LS1...I paid 600$ for it and the 4L60 and they we're still in the car-Running. (the rear of the car is another story :-)! So deals are out there. You just have to look!

Lead.

trapin

02-06-2007, 06:29 PM

Well, there are aluminum BBC blocks, ;) . LSX block is iron.

BBC, cubes to go 700+, heads that flow 500cfm = KING! :D

If you were to build both to max cid, I think pricing would be very close, with BBC making more power due to more ci.

BBC Brodix Al. Block; $5200
C5R; $6,400
LS7; $3,500

Sure both can make awesome power, but I think if you wanted max n/a power, BBC would be the way to go, IMO. :thumbsup:

That is, of course, until they make a big block LSX engine...then all bets are off. ;)

I used to be a nay-sayer when it came to LSX...then I drove an LS2 vehicle and the clouds opened up and the angels sang. Now I can't shut up about them. :D

I'm building my LS1 engine as we speak. I got the motor and trans for just over $3000. I've sunk another $2700 in it. For $5700 I got an aluminum block, a roller camshaft, roller rockers, CNC ported alumimum heads, fuel injection, serpentine drive. Plus it came with the water pump, alternator, power steering pump, high torque starter, and wiring harness.

When done I'll have around 460-480 hp and comparable torque. If you tried to get those same numbers with a small block Chevy, using the same type of parts with the same features and extras...you're north of $15,000. I know because I had a local race shop price one out for me just for giggles. LSX is the best bang for the buck, by far.

But with that said, I think the small block and big block Chevy will live on. They're still a better looking engine where the LS is more of an aquired taste.

TravisB

02-06-2007, 09:04 PM

That is, of course, until they make a big block LSX engine...then all bets are off. ;)

I used to be a nay-sayer when it came to LSX...then I drove an LS2 vehicle and the clouds opened up and the angels sang. Now I can't shut up about them. :D

I'm building my LS1 engine as we speak. I got the motor and trans for just over $3000. I've sunk another $2700 in it. For $5700 I got an aluminum block, a roller camshaft, roller rockers, CNC ported alumimum heads, fuel injection, serpentine drive. Plus it came with the water pump, alternator, power steering pump, high torque starter, and wiring harness.

When done I'll have around 460-480 hp and comparable torque. If you tried to get those same numbers with a small block Chevy, using the same type of parts with the same features and extras...you're north of $15,000. I know because I had a local race shop price one out for me just for giggles. LSX is the best bang for the buck, by far.

But with that said, I think the small block and big block Chevy will live on. They're still a better looking engine where the LS is more of an aquired taste.

15k is a very steep estimate for a 480 hp SBC. BBC is king no question about it build both engines to the max with unlimited budget and BBC will win. Take 5k and build both BBC will win.

*there is no replacement for displacment* sorry but its true.

Steve1968LS2

02-06-2007, 09:34 PM

15k is a very steep estimate for a 480 hp SBC. BBC is king no question about it build both engines to the max with unlimited budget and BBC will win. Take 5k and build both BBC will win.

*there is no replacement for displacment* sorry but its true.

Which car is faster.. the one with the 600hp 700-lb big block or the car with the 500hp 450-lb LS2?

There's more to it than making power.. which engine would get better mileage?

jeff s

02-06-2007, 10:43 PM

Back in 2002 when I built my Ultima GTR, I wanted EFI. It was more money for me to EFI and build and aluminum head Gen1 SBC that to get a complete aluminum LS1/LS6, with a cam change and cnc'd heads I had 500hp.
I bought 2 LS1 long blocks for $800 ea, I had a 5.3 iron block with alum heads given to me, the garage that installed a new engine into a Tahoe found none of the core people would give them anything for it. I bored that one to 5.7 and it'll end up with turbo's on it soon.
A LS2 aluminum block is $995. I've got twin turbos on mine.
Flat heads haven't gone any where, there's still people into em, and lots of new parts available for em as well.
When was the last gen 1 or 2 put in a production car? 10 years ago

customcam

02-06-2007, 10:55 PM

HP is good but what about Torque numbers for NA
they seem alot lower compared to Hp numbers on LSx motors??
Some wise ppl told me Torque is King on the street:

Bowtieracing

02-07-2007, 01:01 AM

I am done with hauling cast iron on my cars for ever. I love the LSx quality and leak proof components , and best of all light weight! Thanks GM,please bring the bluedevil engine asap on market:D

TravisB

02-07-2007, 08:10 AM

Which car is faster.. the one with the 600hp 700-lb big block or the car with the 500hp 450-lb LS2?

There's more to it than making power.. which engine would get better mileage?
A big in big block better make more than 700hp. depends on what is it in and what kind of race it is.:thumbsup:

trapin

02-07-2007, 12:21 PM

15k is a very steep estimate for a 480 hp SBC.
I had them factor in the cost of the aluminum block, the roller camshaft plus the guideplates, pushrods and lifters you would need for it, fuel injection, serpentine drive and all the other accessories (alternator, steering pump, starter, waterpump). That's where the cost got inflated. Yes, you could probably do a 480 horse small block for a lot less than that but it would be just the long block in cast iron configuration, flat tappet camshaft, and standard carb/intake induction.

TravisB

02-07-2007, 12:54 PM

I had them factor in the cost of the aluminum block, the roller camshaft plus the guideplates, pushrods and lifters you would need for it, fuel injection, serpentine drive and all the other accessories (alternator, steering pump, starter, waterpump). That's where the cost got inflated. Yes, you could probably do a 480 horse small block for a lot less than that but it would be just the long block in cast iron configuration, flat tappet camshaft, and standard carb/intake induction.

I wasn't aware that included assc. Still seems up there but with a/m injection and wiring etc. I could see where it might make it that high.

trapin

02-07-2007, 08:01 PM

Actually in all fairness, what should probably be added to the cost of the LSX engine is the sum of all parts and services needed to actually get the thing in your car and running. It looks a little something like this......

1.) Rework wiring harness/reprogram PCM......$300
2.) Modify oil pan......................................$235
3.) Modify stock fuel tank...........................$625
4.) Adapter plates and crossmember.............$350
5.) New Driveshaft....................................$350
6.) Headers (Hooker).................................$625
7.) Chassis Dyno Tune...............................$500

That's the big ticket stuff, there's more but it's mostly nickle and dime stuff.

Mr.VENGEANCE

02-07-2007, 09:34 PM

HP will never go out of style..

Leadfoot1

02-10-2007, 03:12 PM

I am done with hauling cast iron on my cars for ever. I love the LSx quality and leak proof components , and best of all light weight! Thanks GM,please bring the bluedevil engine asap on market:D

I've read a few lines on the Blue devil this week, sounds new to me. What have i missed???

Help!

Lead