Planning a build: Operation Daily Driver

[ProTouring442]

Things have been falling in line fairly well over the last year. We've recently moved to a house with a nice sized garage. The electrician is busy running a 100 amp line to feed it. Things are getting paid off (despite the money we've had to spend to get the house livable). And so now it is time to plan out my "Daily Driver"

For a few years, I had a 1993 BMW M5. I loved that car! Consequently, I think the overall goal of this build will be "an American E34 M5." I'm specifying "E34" because I don't want the car to be too "modern." The E34 M5 was a four-door sports car, and that's the feel I want. The more modern cars are certainly more capable, but at the cost of feeling less an extension of the driver, and more piece of electronics wherein the "driver" tells the car what to do and the car goes out and does it.

One important note, and then onto the "build," thoughts and criticisms are most welcomed!

I need something to act as a daily driver. It has to have four doors, be able to carry four people with reasonable comfort, and still be a fun drive. The base vehicle needs to be fairly safe with a chassis that has good aftermarket support. My first thoughts were for GM A-bodies from '66 to '72. These, however have serious rust issues, and well known suspension issues that can be expensive to deal with (I know, I have a '72 Cutlass in the works). '80s G-bodies were considered, but they have the same suspension issues. Also, the four-door requirement limited the number of vehicles as the later square-roof four-doors just don't look good in my eyes.

I looked at a few Mopar four-doors from the '80s, but their suspension is even older in design, with leaf springs holding up the back. That left Ford.

The Ford Fox Platform has to be one of the best supported platforms out there, ad I find the second-generation Fox four-doors to be reasonably attractive. Add in all the Mustang parts cars out there, and it seems a good choice.

Car: '83-'86 Ford LTD, LTD LX


'85-'86 Mustang nose
Saleen chin spoiler
Custom headlights w/GTS covers
'86-'87 Mustang rear wheel well openings
'86-'87 Mustnag rear bumber
Porsche Petrol Blue
Moonroof


Interior:


'80s Nissan 300ZX front seats
Custom console
Fold down rear seat (wagon?)
Custom console
Creme or tan upholstery
'79-'86 Fox Mustang dash
Dakota Digital VHX gauge package


Chassis:


Full subframe connectors
Strut brace
Rear shock brace
Cobra IRS
Delrin bushings throughout
Air ride?
Brake upgrade (17" wheels)
US Mags U434 "El Dorado" wheels


Engine:


302 block (Boss necessary?)
4" bore, 3" stroke (302)
Trick Flow "PowerPort" Cleveland heads
Trick Flow "Box-R" EFI Intake Manifold
Shorty or mid length headers
10.5:1 compression
Roller cam
Pro-M Racing engine management system
Coil on plug ignition
5 (or 6) speed manual transmission


So let's have at it. Thoughts? Criticisms? Better ideas?

[Musclerodz]

personally the only late model 4 door (basically anything after 72) I would think was worth putting that kind of effort into would be a 96 SS Impala.

[rickpaw]

You mentioned owning an M5, how about building your own M5? Mid 90's 5-series with LS/t56 swap?

There are a few build threads over ls1tech.com

[ProTouring442]

You mentioned owning an M5, how about building your own M5? Mid 90's 5-series with LS/t56 swap?

There are a few build threads over ls1tech.com

I had thought of that (back before I sold it), but... well, I sold it a few years ago. Plus, it was but one of two '93 M5s in Calypso Red cars. Seemed a crime to cut it up.

[ProTouring442]

personally the only late model 4 door (basically anything after 72) I would think was worth putting that kind of effort into would be a 96 SS Impala.

I can't stand the Aero Impalas. From some angles they look good, but from the inside... yuck. I think they are exceedingly cheaply made, too.

I did, however, consider an '77-'79 Impala or Oldsmobile Eighty Eight (I like the early front ends, better), but I really want an IRS for comfort. I could (as I am doing on my '72 Cutlass) adapt something, but the Fox IRS is a bolt in. Finally, the B-bodies are a bit big for what I want.

Good thoughts, though--thanks!

[DBasher]

Hard to beat the aftermarket support of the Fox platform...as long as you like the looks of the Fairmont. I like the idea of an American M5 also, though I'd go the other way and transplant a LS and 6 speed into a nice 5 series.

Martin Pond has a very well built 2 door and wagon that can be drivin daily and tracked all weekend. He's completely lost his mind and is now building a Ford Durango...yes it exists, look it up.

For the amount of money and time you'll have invested, have you looked at mid 60's Falcon or Fairlane wagons? A lot of what you're planning can be done to the earlier cars and.....not look like a fairmont. :D

[SSLance]

For the amount of money and time you'll have invested, have you looked at mid 60's Falcon or Fairlane wagons? A lot of what you're planning can be done to the earlier cars and.....not look like a fairmont. :D

^ Yeah this...

[Build-It-Break-it]

A BMW wagon with an Ls would be sweet. Also an old Volvo wagon or 4 door with an LS swap.

[ProTouring442]

Actually, I like the LTD. I don't like the Fairmont that came before it (even though they share doors, roof, and overall structure). But I do like the LTD. I won't say it's the sexiest thing I've ever seen, but it isn't bad looking. Plus, the nose-job I want to give it will add the funky, Euro-Ford look from that era, and I like that too (thought the XR4Ti was cool looking).

https://themustangsource.com/forums/attachments/f634/182129d1481264226-four-door-five-oh-fox-body-rare-sedan-you-really-want-photo228.jpg

http://hooniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/LTDScott_01.jpg-800%C3%97533-Google-Chrome-9112014-71611-AM.bmp.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i62/e4drht/1985%20LTD%20LX/842861A2-3717-4ECE-BFA6-D3294456DFD1_zpsnrkubqbr.jpg

[ProTouring442]

Hard to beat the aftermarket support of the Fox platform...as long as you like the looks of the Fairmont. I like the idea of an American M5 also, though I'd go the other way and transplant a LS and 6 speed into a nice 5 series.

The Fairmont was ugly, the LTD looked cool I think. I've thought of dropping an LS into a E34 5-series, but there are a few issues. The first is I think the swap will be more expensive. A 302 bolts into a Fox, the 5-speed is a matter of swapping out Mustang parts, etc. Next, suspension stuff for the E34 is expensive, and only urethane is available, not Delrin. The there is the issue of the BMW HVAC system. I'm probably just trying to talk myself out of it, but... Besides, an E34 needs that silky smooth DOHC six, not some American V-8.

Martin Pond has a very well built 2 door and wagon that can be drivin daily and tracked all weekend. He's completely lost his mind and is now building a Ford Durango...yes it exists, look it up.

I'll have to look into his build. And yes, I know what a Ford Durango is. LOL It's Ausie for a ute based on the Fairmont/LTD wagon.

For the amount of money and time you'll have invested, have you looked at mid 60's Falcon or Fairlane wagons? A lot of what you're planning can be done to the earlier cars and.....not look like a fairmont. :D

I can get an LTD (rust free) for around $1,000-$2,000. I cannot imagine a nice Falcon or Fairlane going for that. Further, the LTD will come with A/C, rear window defrost, and probably tilt, and power windows and locks. Also, the IRS will bolt into an LTD. Oh, and finally, it won't look like a Fairmont! LOL! The squared off Fairmont is... well... I think "dowdy" describes it well. The redesigned "Fairmont" became the LTD, and I think it works well.

[ProTouring442]

A BMW wagon with an Ls would be sweet. Also an old Volvo wagon or 4 door with an LS swap.

Way too much work to get a reasonably fun suspension under the Volvo, plus between the price of the car and the cost of adding things like A/C, the cost would be significantly more. I can pick up a rust free LTD for $1,000-$2,000. I don't think you could come close to that for the old Volvo, and it would likely have rust. Also, the LTD will have A/C, rear window defrost, and will likely come equipped with tilt, power windows, and power locks. Finally, all the Mustang stuff basically bolts in.

[Vegas69]

I can't imagine putting this amount of effort and resources into an LTD. The platform ultimately dictates the value down the road. I sell everything and I don't like to lose money, so that matters to me.

[DBasher]

Way too much work to get a reasonably fun suspension under the Volvo, plus between the price of the car and the cost of adding things like A/C, the cost would be significantly more. I can pick up a rust free LTD for $1,000-$2,000. I don't think you could come close to that for the old Volvo, and it would likely have rust. Also, the LTD will have A/C, rear window defrost, and will likely come equipped with tilt, power windows, and power locks. Finally, all the Mustang stuff basically bolts in.

Early, N/A CTS-V...Done.
Everything you're looking for, other than a LTD body....that people will think is a Fairmont.

[ProTouring442]

Early, N/A CTS-V...Done.
Everything you're looking for, other than a LTD body....that people will think is a Fairmont.

And so damned integrated that when the lane change warning goes out, the power seats stop working. No thank you.

[ProTouring442]

I can't imagine putting this amount of effort and resources into an LTD. The platform ultimately dictates the value down the road. I sell everything and I don't like to lose money, so that matters to me.


You have a good point, here. But I'm building a four-door, park anywhere, but still have fun when I drive 2K miles to New Mexico kind of ride. Yeah, I'll lose money when I sell it. Then again, I'l lose a whole lot less than buying a newer car and selling it ten years from now. Plus, I'm starting with a damned cheap car to begin with.

Besides, we're not exactly talking a high-dollar build here. I bet I can do pretty much everything I want for $10K, $15K tops.

[DBasher]

And so damned integrated that when the lane change warning goes out, the power seats stop working. No thank you.

You asked, I gave feedback. Good luck with the Granada build :D

[FETorino]

You have a good point, here. But I'm building a four-door, park anywhere, but still have fun when I drive 2K miles to New Mexico kind of ride. Yeah, I'll lose money when I sell it. Then again, I'l lose a whole lot less than buying a newer car and selling it ten years from now. Plus, I'm starting with a damned cheap car to begin with.

Besides, we're not exactly talking a high-dollar build here. I bet I can do pretty much everything I want for $10K, $15K tops.

Double the estimate on any build and you may get close. Even on this one.

You asked, I gave feedback. Good luck with the Granada build :D

The reason that Granada LTD is so cheap is because they are fugly and the vast majority of people would gladly drop them off at the crusher.

So you should not be surprised that everyone is trying to talk you out of throwing your money down the toilet.

It sounds to me like you should start shopping for another early 90s BMW. Those are great drivers cars and there is no way you will replicate the feel of one of those for under $15k even if you start with a throwaway car.

There is a 62 Comet wagon 5 lug car with a 302 and a 5 speed for sale on LA craigslist for $11k. For another $4k it would get you closer to that BMW than the Granada and have some resale value.

http://http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/CD532ADC-9A0A-4389-98BA-EA18008E62B8_zpsdl0ta2dg.png (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/CD532ADC-9A0A-4389-98BA-EA18008E62B8_zpsdl0ta2dg.png.html)

[Vegas69]

I was thinking the same thing. They are dirt cheap because the demand is not there.

[ProTouring442]

Double the estimate on any build and you may get close. Even on this one.

Maybe, though I came in only a few grand over budget on my '89 Grand Wagoneer build (due to choosing a Gen IV over a Gen II engine). But let's say it $25K. That's still pretty damned cheap for a well running, good handling, automobile.

The reason that Granada LTD is so cheap is because they are fugly and the vast majority of people would gladly drop them off at the crusher.

Yes... and no.

First, I'll fully agree the Fox-body Granada is butt ugly. Fortunately, there isn't a lot that's shared between the poorly received and short-lived Fox-Granada.

As for your second assertion, why should I care what other people would do with a Fox LTD? Lot's of other people wouldn't touch a Fox-Mustang. They've become the backyard bastard children of trailer parks. The nice one's are still--well--nice. I even had one (an asc/McLaren). Loved the thing.

Even '60s Chevelle 2-doors were once "throwaway" cars, and only around ten or fifteen years ago you could pick up a '64-'72 GM A-body 4-door for next to nothing. Will the Fox-Mustang/LTD ever be collectable? Probably not. Then again, neither is a '70 Nova 4-door.

So you should not be surprised that everyone is trying to talk you out of throwing your money down the toilet.

I appreciate your concern for my fiscal responsibility, but at after fifty years on the planet, I figure I'm allowed to throw my money in the toilet. At least I'll be throwing a lot less of it in the toilet by not starting with a BMW or older GM/Ford/Chrysler product.

It sounds to me like you should start shopping for another early 90s BMW. Those are great drivers cars and there is no way you will replicate the feel of one of those for under $15k even if you start with a throwaway car.

I've owned a '93 M5, and I've owned an '87 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe. Except for cheap interior plastics and the tendency for the solid axle to skip around like--well--a solid axle, the two cars were fairly comparable. Both were fairly quiet, both went around corners very well, both were nice and comfortable. The BMW made a lot nicer noises when the pedal went to the floor (the Thunderbird sounded like a cement mixer), but the 'Bird was saddled with a pretty agricultural engine.


There is a 62 Comet wagon 5 lug car with a 302 and a 5 speed for sale on LA craigslist for $11k. For another $4k it would get you closer to that BMW than the Granada and have some resale value.

Wait, you actually think that buggy-sprung wagon will be "closer" to the handling and feel of a BMW than a Fox-Mustang--erm--LTD with IRS? With aftermarket A/C, custom IRS installation, etc, etc, that's a $40K build.

The E34 is notorious for front end shimmy due to even the slightest wear/play in the front strut-arm bushings. Otherwise, it's a fairly non-remarkable front strut system, and suffers pretty much the exact same "front strut" suspension issues as the Fox Mustang/LTD. Performance parts are available for both, though the BMW pieces run a good 30% more than those for the Fox Mustang.

The rear of the E34 is a semi-trailing arm IRS, with all of the "semi-trailing arm" compromises that come standard with such a set up. The SN95 IRS is a multilink design, with compromises made for packaging in the SN95 (Fox) platform. Both have their good points, both have their issues. The standard differential in a non-M-series E34 is weak and non-posi. The standard rear in an SN95 IRS is an 8.8 posi. Start with an M-series and rebuilding the rear level-ride will cost as much as buying a Ridetecch system for a Fox-Mustang/LTD. Performance parts are available for both, though those for the BMW run 30% to 50% more than those for the SN95 Mustang.

The brakes on the E34 M series are well known for their warped rotors. Upgrade kits are available, but you will pay for them. The brakes on the Fox-Mustang/LTD are pitiful, but upgrades are a junkyard/Ebay search away.

Both are monocoque "unibodies" with probably about the same amount of technology utilized in their construction and design. Neither is the best looking car in the world, though the BMW does get a nod due to it's having been a status symbol back when it was built, while the Fox-Mustang/LTD was pretty much relegated to commuter car/police car/salesman's car status. Both have about the same propensity (or non-propensity) for rust. E34 5-series cars can be found for a couple grand, but they will be clapped out cars. A pristine example will set you back a good $10K. As I have stated, the Fox-Mustang/LTD will set you back about $2K for a pristine example.

Swapping anything into a BMW will cost you, big time. Custom engine mounts, custom radiator, custom A/C lines, custom hoses, custom exhaust, etc, etc, etc. 80% of the changes to the Fox-Mustang/LTD are bolt on. The 302/5-speed bolts in using a Fox-Mustang parts car. The A/C bolts up. The lines and hoses bolt up. The IRS bolts in. The brake upgrades are inexpensive. If I had a guess, a nice E34 with an LS3/6-speed will probably be at least double what it would cost to build a nice, 302/5-speed/IRS Fox-Mustang/LTD.

And in the end, there is one more issue, maybe I'm a moron with no taste, but I like the look of the Fox-Mustang/LTD. Lowered on nice wheels, I think they look at least equal to the E34 BMW. And remember, this is supposed to be a fun, daily driver--emphasis on Daily. It will sit in parking lots, carry groceries, travel across the country, get driven in the rain and dust, etc.

Ten years ago, a guy building a Maverick was thought of as throwing his money away. Now, Mavericks are cool. Nonetheless, a 4-door Maverick is still a throwaway car.

But I'm not building this to sell in three years. I'm not building it to sell in five or even ten years, for that matter. But who cares? Let's say I spend $30K on the build, drive it for 250K miles, and sell it in ten years for $3K. Who cares? I still lost less than if I'd bought a 2-year old car. You wouldn't mention money if I'd posted up on the 2-year old CTS I'd just bought. You wouldn't mention money if I then went and dumped $10K of performance parts into the thing. But I'd lose a lot more when I sold the thing some 250K miles later. Why is that a "good" idea and spending what I think I can spend on this a "bad" idea?

[raustinss]

ok so you've already sold yourself on the car so why ask us for opinions , I say giver they can be cool cars and yes the support is thru the roof . parts are cheapish . only thing id change on your build would be either a coyote,ecoboost 6 or 4 cylinder versions or something other then the ancient old heavy 5.0.

[DBasher]

Here you go. http://www.flee.com/ltd/

They'll probably love the build plans and only knock you for using 300z seats instead of the Escort GT seats.

Obviously not a lot of love for custom, 80's four doors on this site...And I'm ok with that. Actually, I'm surprised none of the Aussies have said anything, those kooks love 4 doors. :thumbsup: :bunny:

[ProTouring442]

ok so you've already sold yourself on the car so why ask us for opinions , I say giver they can be cool cars and yes the support is thru the roof . parts are cheapish . only thing id change on your build would be either a coyote,ecoboost 6 or 4 cylinder versions or something other then the ancient old heavy 5.0.

What I was looking for, I suppose, was flaws in the build plan. I like the idea of a Coyote swap, but I think that would push costs through the roof. Same of the Ecoboost bent-6.

An iron block is certainly heavier than aluminum, but there are lots os LS swaps featuring iron blocks (the LY5 in my Jeep, for instance), and if I were to go with a swap, I would probably end up with an iron block LS. The question is, how does an Iron block 302 with aluminum heads compare to a similarly sized iron block LS engine. The closest is the 5.3 w/315ish hp. Comparing the complexity of swapping in an LS engine, I think I am better off staying 302.

Opinions?

[ProTouring442]

Here you go. http://www.flee.com/ltd/

They'll probably love the build plans and only knock you for using 300z seats instead of the Escort GT seats.

Obviously not a lot of love for custom, 80's four doors on this site...And I'm ok with that. Actually, I'm surprised none of the Aussies have said anything, those kooks love 4 doors. :thumbsup: :bunny:

Really, except for the recent new-car 4-door phenomena, Americans have always preferred coupes while the Aussies have always loved their 4-doors. Frankly, I'd rather a coupe. But getting my folks or my in-laws into the back of a coupe isn't going to happen. Also, my wife has MS, and a 4-door is helpful with that.

As for the 300ZX seats, we have a '93, and I absolutely love the seats. Everything about them fits me exceedingly well. I actually have a set of Thunderbird Turbo Coupe seats (Mustang GT, essentially), and their nice, but nothing like the Nissan seats.

[ProTouring442]

I find it interesting that someone can build something like this, and it's "cool."

http://media.motortopia.com/files/23952/vehicle/4ba44dba3ec44/101_1631.jpg

But this is so ugly I'm an idiot to consider it, and it should be scrapped.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3500/3233580716_8b182b4843_b.jpg

I guess I must be blind, because to me, neither is the greatest looking thing out there, but neither is exactly what I would call "ugly." Then again, my ole' man caught it from many for wanting to build "the ugliest car Chevrolet ever made," a 1959 Impala.

[DBasher]

Anymore details on the wagon? :popcorn2:

Build the Ford and have fun with it, it's cool to you and that's all that matters. I'd be cautious about asking for opinions and criticism and then pissing and moaning about people's responses....it's not nice.

You're going to hear the same responses once it's built and you're driving it, some folks will appreciate it and others will think you're a fool. Get over it.

[ProTouring442]

Anymore details on the wagon? :popcorn2:

Build the Ford and have fun with it, it's cool to you and that's all that matters. I'd be cautious about asking for opinions and criticism and then pissing and moaning about people's responses....it's not nice.

You're going to hear the same responses once it's built and you're driving it, some folks will appreciate it and others will think you're a fool. Get over it.

There's been no pissing nor moaning, though I find it funny that countering an argument with my reasoning is considered as such, yet "it's ugly" and "you're wasting your time and money!" aren't pissing or moaning. :ohsnap:

Many people presented valid arguments as to why the Fox-LTD might not be the best platform, to which I countered with why I chose this particular vehicle. Again, no pissing or moaning, just explaining why I chose what I chose. I don;t mind either the questions or the criticisms, but I think the "you're stupid" posts are just silly.

And yeah, not everyone will like my Daily Driver. Of course not. Some people build imports, some people build pony cars, some people build wagons. I can't stand Mint-Chocolate Chip ice cream, some people love it. Some of the cars on here are not at all to my liking, some are builds I could only dream of doing. In any case, I can appreciate a quality build, even when I am not fond of the end result.