Holley Dominator EFI hard starting after warm up

[DOOM]

Well guys on to the next problem. My car is very hard to start after warm up. It will turn over for quite some time before it starts . Cold starts are okay . Any ideas:bang: Trying to set up my laptop so I can see what's going on but that's another story .:confused18:

[Vegas69]

I'd be looking for areas where your fuel line is getting too warm. Even with fuel injection you can get heat soak. Also, look at your fuel pressure and make sure your tank is venting properly.

[will69camaro]

Vaporlocking in the rails? How is your fuel system routed. What fuel? I had zero starting issues with 93 and only a small delay when starting on E85.

[carbuff]

Do you have a fuel pressure gauge?

Hard start can be a bit tricky. In the Holley, you have to get the air/fuel set somewhat manually with the IAC opening and startup fuel. The tables are based on CTS, and take some experimenting.

Also, the Holley has a fixed timing advance for starting. Where is that set?

[DOOM]

I'd be looking for areas where your fuel line is getting too warm. Even with fuel injection you can get heat soak. Also, look at your fuel pressure and make sure your tank is venting properly.
Thanx for the info Todd I'm on it!
Vaporlocking in the rails? How is your fuel system routed. What fuel? I had zero starting issues with 93 and only a small delay when starting on E85.
Will I'm running VP 100 I'm going to look at the routing this week.
Do you have a fuel pressure gauge?

Hard start can be a bit tricky. In the Holley, you have to get the air/fuel set somewhat manually with the IAC opening and startup fuel. The tables are based on CTS, and take some experimenting.

Also, the Holley has a fixed timing advance for starting. Where is that set?
I do have a gauge I just have to find out what the pressure should be. This Holley EFI is all new to me . Glade I have you guys!

[carbuff]

Generally you will be at 43 or 58 psi, and there is a setting in the Holley setup which indicates what pressure you are using. If the car is running ok once started, that should all be fine. I was curious if you were getting pressure during hot start based on the vapor lock questions. I'd be surprised if that is the problem with a higher pressure style EFI pump, but I suppose it's possible...

[GregWeld]

Generally you will be at 43 or 58 psi, and there is a setting in the Holley setup which indicates what pressure you are using. If the car is running ok once started, that should all be fine. I was curious if you were getting pressure during hot start based on the vapor lock questions. I'd be surprised if that is the problem with a higher pressure style EFI pump, but I suppose it's possible...

highly doubtful.... you'd basically have to have heated up the entire tank of fuel.

Here IS a problem I've seen with EFI and the higher fuel pressures..... is when someone creates a VACUUM situation with a fitting (not pressure). Fuel boils with VACUUM... (it's not really boiling - it cavitates).

I'd be looking for a RESTRICTION in the fuel system.

[GregWeld]

Well guys on to the next problem. My car is very hard to start after warm up. It will turn over for quite some time before it starts . Cold starts are okay . Any ideas:bang: Trying to set up my laptop so I can see what's going on but that's another story .:confused18:


I thought this car was pro built?

[GregWeld]

Is there a controller on your pump Mario -- because most fuel pumps are NOT continuous pumps.... but if they're not controlled then they turn into continuous pumps and as such get hot. Then you add heat soak - and then they start boiling the fuel... and don't pump worth a damn. That would show up on hot start.

[Roadster Shop]

PM sent, Mario

[DOOM]

I thought this car was pro built?

F@$KING BALL BUSTER!:buttkick: :mock:

[DOOM]

We ruled out vapor lock. Nothing comes close to any heat . When the car starts its a monster . The throttle response is crazy ,idles like a dream. Josh at RS put us in the right direction. Will let you know how it works out .

[andrewb70]

This is a simple tuning issue. The combination of IAC Park and cranking fuel are what determines starting AFR. There is also a Fuel Prime adjustment in the System ICF. Fiddle around with those parameters until you get to what it likes. I find cranking fuel values just above fuel table values in the idle area work best for hot start. Then adjust IAC park accordingly. You can also fiddle with cranking spark advance, but I'd leave that as last resort.

Andrew

[572Camaro]

I have been following this thread but am only familiar with FAST XFI systems.
Based on your hot start issue, i believe Andrew nailed your issue.
I would first ensure you have the specified fuel pressure with key on, engine off.
Then work on your "cranking fuel" which controls air/fuel ratio below roughly 400rpm.
Then IAC park position should be tuned to ensure it is opening enough.
Just curious, are you throttling the gas pedal during cranking to get it to start when it is hot? Does it help? That could be an indication that Andrew is on the right track.
Please let us know what you find out

[DOOM]

I have been following this thread but am only familiar with FAST XFI systems.
Based on your hot start issue, i believe Andrew nailed your issue.
I would first ensure you have the specified fuel pressure with key on, engine off.
Then work on your "cranking fuel" which controls air/fuel ratio below roughly 400rpm.
Then IAC park position should be tuned to ensure it is opening enough.
Just curious, are you throttling the gas pedal during cranking to get it to start when it is hot? Does it help? That could be an indication that Andrew is on the right track.
Please let us know what you find out

Will do ! Andrew is on the right track. I don't touch the pedal when I start it.

[572Camaro]

Hey DOOM, just curious..,
Any progress?
Just want to help and see if your "cranking fuel" adjustment fixed your hot start issue.

[DOOM]

Hey DOOM, just curious..,
Any progress?
Just want to help and see if your "cranking fuel" adjustment fixed your hot start issue.

We just got it all figured out! It turns out that my distributor is locked out. I don't have any mechanical advance on my car at all. So with that being said my car is trying to start at 38 digress total advance. Causing the starter kick back.MSD makes a Starter Saver that retards the timing 10 -20 digress . It works like a charm . We just literally got it done today !

[572Camaro]

DOOM, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!

Time to cruise!

By the way, I shredded my starter and flexplate about two years ago in my 572
68 Camaro. Having accidentally too much timing advance during cranking, it backfired through the intake while cranking and destroyed several flexplate teeth. And of course, it had to happen at a car show with everybody watching.

Here's my point: You are lucky. I was not. I experimented with "cranking timing" and found 18 degrees advance to work the best for me.

Again, sincere congratulations!

[DOOM]

DOOM, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!

Time to cruise!

By the way, I shredded my starter and flexplate about two years ago in my 572
68 Camaro. Having accidentally too much timing advance during cranking, it backfired through the intake while cranking and destroyed several flexplate teeth. And of course, it had to happen at a car show with everybody watching.

Here's my point: You are lucky. I was not. I experimented with "cranking timing" and found 18 degrees advance to work the best for me.

Again, sincere congratulations!

I actually had to replace the starter bolts on mine ! I knew this wasn't right so I would start the car by just bumping the ignition to help keep it from happening until we got it corrected.

[Vegas69]

Even I didn't have my distributor locked out on my solid roller big block. With the right bushing and springs, you can achieve similar results to the module and plenty of initial advance. The same GM mini starter lasted the entire time I had the car.

[Tinker]

We just got it all figured out! It turns out that my distributor is locked out. I don't have any mechanical advance on my car at all. So with that being said my car is trying to start at 38 digress total advance. Causing the starter kick back.MSD makes a Starter Saver that retards the timing 10 -20 digress . It works like a charm . We just literally got it done today !

I personally have used the computer controlled timing going back to my old commander 950 setup in 2004. Simplifies everything ( once programmed) no other boxes needed. Heck, you already have a locked distributor. With my new HP setup I'm going to even go distributorless, and that's on an old Pontiac mill.

[DOOM]

I had no idea how this stuff works:EmoteClueless: . I've been reading and learning more and more about what you can and can't do and it can be a tad bit overwhelming. Just wish I did it before I had the system installed I would have done a lot of things different that's for sure.

[andrewb70]

Mario,

The distributor is SUPPOSED to be locked out. The timing is handled by the ECU!!!

There is a place in the software where you can set timing while cranking...

Don't take this the wrong way, but please take your car to someone that knows EFI inside and out before something bad happens...

Andrew

[Tinker]

It's funny how after one is exposed to anything long enough, we tend to think of it as common knowledge, but that is certainly not the case. Good thing there is always something else out there to remind us. (And humble us). That is why we are all on this forum, for there is someone with experience out there to throw us a lifeline.

[GregWeld]

Mario,

The distributor is SUPPOSED to be locked out. The timing is handled by the ECU!!!

There is a place in the software where you can set timing while cranking...

Don't take this the wrong way, but please take your car to someone that knows EFI inside and out before something bad happens...

Andrew




Couldn't agree more. This is not for beginners to learn on --- you can ruin a motor in nothing flat.

Okay to learn to do certain things --- idle adjustments -- open pages and look at fueling -- or learn to understand what the IAC or O2 sensor is telling you... so you don't have to have a pro every time you want to make a minor adjustment to one or two items.

Not sure who tuned this in the first place ----- maybe we don't want to know --- but cold and hot start is all part of that tune ---- if it didn't happen - then please don't recommend them.

[andrewb70]

....MSD makes a Starter Saver that retards the timing 10 -20 digress . It works like a charm . We just literally got it done today !

Wow...

[DOOM]

Mario,

The distributor is SUPPOSED to be locked out. The timing is handled by the ECU!!!

There is a place in the software where you can set timing while cranking...

Don't take this the wrong way, but please take your car to someone that knows EFI inside and out before something bad happens...

Andrew

Andrew that's exactly what I did. My car was at one of the top tuners in the country !!!!! And this was how I got my car back. It took my nephews tuner who does of all things drag boats and snowmobiles, 5 minutes to figure out my Holley system wasn't controlling my timing . He retarded the timing and the car started perfect . It's frustrating as F@CK I can tell you that . We are taking it tomorrow to my nephews tuner he rented some dyno time at his friends place . So will see what happens.

[andrewb70]

Andrew that's exactly what I did. My car was at one of the top tuners in the country !!!!! And this was how I got my car back. It took my nephews tuner who does of all things drag boats and snowmobiles, 5 minutes to figure out my Holley system wasn't controlling my timing . He retarded the timing and the car started perfect . It's frustrating as F@CK I can tell you that . We are taking it tomorrow to my nephews tuner he rented some dyno time at his friends place . So will see what happens.

If the Dominator was not controlling timing, then something is wrong with the installation. In other words, the wiring is most likely not set-up properly in order for the ECU to control whatever style of ignition is being used. The Holley supports many different popular ignition options, but they must be a) wired correctly, and b) subsequently configured properly in the ECU.

I hope that whoever works on it next can do both a and b.

Good luck!

Andrew

[supremeefi]

Andrew that's exactly what I did. My car was at one of the top tuners in the country !!!!! And this was how I got my car back. It took my nephews tuner who does of all things drag boats and snowmobiles, 5 minutes to figure out my Holley system wasn't controlling my timing . He retarded the timing and the car started perfect . It's frustrating as F@CK I can tell you that . We are taking it tomorrow to my nephews tuner he rented some dyno time at his friends place . So will see what happens.

If I had a dime for every time I heard this I'd be living in Beverly Hills CA.
Unfortunately there are still more crappy tuners out there than maybe we think.

[DOOM]

If I had a dime for every time I heard this I'd be living in Beverly Hills CA.
Unfortunately there are still more crappy tuners out there than maybe we think.

Mark you have no idea! My car has been to three tuners . The last one got the car running awesome . That is when you can finally get it started. So you ask,'' Was it doing this when you had it?????????'' Of course it wasn't!!!!!! HOW THE F@CK CAN IT NOT ITS TRYING TO START AT 38 DEGRESS ADVANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We go to the dyno tomorrow My nephews guy has the place rented for the afternoon. This will be the first time I'm going so I can see for myself that everything is good to go.:whenitsdone:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Mario,

Sounds like this whole starting issue is like an electronic ridle(r).


#GWstartedit


:innocent:

[Tinker]

Mario,

Good luck at the dyno today.

I am usually hesitant about people bad-mouthing businesses on social media because it can shut a place down in a hurry, but when someone gets totally raked over the coals other potential customers need to know. I HATE(and I don't like that word)hearing stories of incompetence or down right thievery.

[supremeefi]

Mark you have no idea! My car has been to three tuners . The last one got the car running awesome . That is when you can finally get it started. So you ask,'' Was it doing this when you had it?????????'' Of course it wasn't!!!!!! HOW THE F@CK CAN IT NOT ITS TRYING TO START AT 38 DEGRESS ADVANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We go to the dyno tomorrow My nephews guy has the place rented for the afternoon. This will be the first time I'm going so I can see for myself that everything is good to go.:whenitsdone:

Best of luck, keep us posted.
Regarding the timing issue, I've always told others just because you CAN do that doesn't mean you SHOULD do that. Plus too many charge too much $$$. This ain't that difficult.
Again best of luck.

[DOOM]

Well we had a productive outing at the tuner last week . The car starts perfect now. It wasn't hard to figure out the starting problem it was trying to start at almost 50 degrees advance !!!!!!!!!!! We thought it was 38 degrees at first but we were wrong. Now with the MSD starter saver it works perfect. I'm going to run it this way until Holley makes the distributor I need . They currently don't make the short version I need for my car.

[GregWeld]

Good to hear Mario!!!



Just one other question on the brakes -- no need to respond here -- have you checked your PEDAL RATIO -- it should be 6:1 or so ---- not the 4:1 for power brakes.

My guess is -- that Master Cylinder is too small diameter and might not be able to provide the VOLUME required for your huge by large braking system.

[DOOM]

Good to hear Mario!!!



Just one other question on the brakes -- no need to respond here -- have you checked your PEDAL RATIO -- it should be 6:1 or so ---- not the 4:1 for power brakes.

My guess is -- that Master Cylinder is too small diameter and might not be able to provide the VOLUME required for your huge by large braking system.

That's exactly it Greg!

[andrewb70]

Well we had a productive outing at the tuner last week . The car starts perfect now. It wasn't hard to figure out the starting problem it was trying to start at almost 50 degrees advance !!!!!!!!!!! We thought it was 38 degrees at first but we were wrong. Now with the MSD starter saver it works perfect. I'm going to run it this way until Holley makes the distributor I need . They currently don't make the short version I need for my car.

So what you're telling me here is that the Holley Dominator never controlled the timing on your set-up, is that correct?

Andrew

[DOOM]

So what you're telling me here is that the Holley Dominator never controlled the timing on your set-up, is that correct?

Andrew

Exactly Andrew.

[JKnight]

So....I think the next question might be...why?

[DOOM]

So....I think the next question might be...why?
That's a question that's never been answered!! As I said before I have been reading and learning about this system on my own . It frustrates the crap out of me when the people that say they know can't give you an answer. I learn new things every day in my business I have to deal with every make of car you can imagine. This is just another thing I'll read up on and learn trust me . But I've been talking with Holley and there looking into setting me up with a PRO BILLET distributor with all there new technology in it . They don't make the short version that I currently have in my car.

[andrewb70]

Mario,

Make sure that whoever does the new distributer installation fully understands how to set-up a dual synch distributor. The distributor will offer both a cam and crank signal which are essential to full timing control and for sequential fuel injection...

Was there a cam signal to the ECU before (my guess is no...)? If that is the case, then your EFI was set-up in batch fire mode and not sequential mode.

I have a feeling that once everything is installed and configured correctly, it will be a different car.

Here is a video of installing a dual synch distributor for the Sniper EFI. Your process may have subtle differences but much will be the same.

O5_089Q39CA

Andrew

[JKnight]

Ok, makes sense. Obviously I'm no expert either, I was just thinking there may be some functionality being left on the table given you have the Dominator ecu.

[andrewb70]

Ok, makes sense. Obviously I'm no expert either, I was just thinking there may be some functionality being left on the table given you have the Dominator ecu.

There was definitely A LOT of functionality that was left on the table. Having the ECU control timing is the most basic of EFI functions and whoever did the original instal dropped the ball.

I will say this, the 50 degrees advance is an interesting number. In the Holley instructions there is reference to positioning the distributor in that location. However, from there, the ECU does the rest.

I think what happened is that they never verified ACTUAL timing with a light and ASSumed that the ECU has it handled. The Holley software is excellent but it can't work miracles. It is just a computer, so as they say "garbage in, garbage out."

I wish I still lived in the Chicago area. I would come over and we get it all worked out...

Mario, can you tell the exact engine combination?

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Was there ever a resolution with this?

Andrew

[DOOM]

Was there ever a resolution with this?

Andrew

Andrew here's the short version. We did find out what the problem was and it was no fault of Holley's.
Turns out my distributor is set at a fixed timing ( WITCH WAS AT 44 DEGRESS ADVANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!) so that was the problem with the hard starting . That was causing the starter kick back when I tried to start the car. We installed a MSD timing retard box that lets the car start at either 10 degress or 20 degress then returns to the set timing . This cured that problem. I do not understand to this day why it was done this way ? Holley has the distributor I need but they don't make it in the short version that I have on my car . But I'm working with them to see if they can build it for me . I spent all winter learning about the system so I can utilize what it has to offer. Right now it's only doing fuel management . That's the short version the long version wouldn't be so nice .:twak:

[andrewb70]

Mario,

Have you considered doing a coil near plug ignition system?

I really ally amazed at the level of incompetence on the part of whoever installed the EFI initially.

Andrew