Pros and cons of AEM, Holley and MS3pro

[funcars]

I'm installing EFI on a fairly radical Ford motor now and a Chevy in the near future and have narrowed my choices down to the AEM infinity, the Holley HP series or the MS3pro. I've tuned some older (more painful) PROM based systems and Accel Gen 7 but want to use the new options with more features, no PROM burning, pre-built harnesses and support for COP. I have researched a good bit but I thought I would ask if anyone here has experience with all 3 or even 2.

I'm an engineer (BSME and MSEE) and know that all of these can be made to work fairly well but don't want to spend large amounts of time troubleshooting or figuring out how to use weakly documented systems (Accel Gen 7 was a good example of this). All appear to have some form of limited auto fuel curve development/control process using wideband O2 (I think good for initial operation) and each appears has different strengths. AEM infinity 508 looks to have the most features built in, Holley HP has the most being used and most available support and MS seems to be the most adaptable to any configuration you'd ever run.

I'm planning on a toothed crank trigger, LS COP, port injection on modified single plane manifolds and sequential control for both motors. Both are manual transmission and both will be cable throttle bodies. No turbo or supercharger planned either but who knows down the road.

Thanks for any help with the choices.

[novahollic]

I am a big fan of the Holley EFI. I don't have any experience with the Infinity, but I have heard really good things. Compared to FAST, ACCEL, MS, and the older AEM boxes, I would choose the Holley.

Getting it up and running is really simple. I have run it with an LS3 reluctor wheel on the front of an old SBC, using a hall effect distributor as a cam sensor, with coil on plug, and it took all of 15min to get the software configured.

The learning feature works well, plus you can program when it learns and when it runs straight off the VE table. You can also run dual wideband sensors, so you get a reading from each bank.

It's also very easy to add different features, such as boost control, transmission control, nitrous, water meth, etc.

[funcars]

Thanks for the info. Did you use the HP Holley or the dominator with the extra I/O. I thought the HP only has single O2 support and the Dominator has 2.
Thanks

[carbuff]

I run the Holley HP EFI, and I really like it. There is some good support on a couple of forums for the unit as well. I used the FAST in the past, and I like the Holley much better.

The HP EFI only supports a single O2 sensor. I do believe that the Dominator will support 2. I've had no real issues with running a single sensor. I had bungs installed in both exhaust tubes so that I can choose to run it in either.

It would be nice to have more than 8 I/O (4 inputs, 4 outputs), but with some planning I was able to do all that I needed to.

[cjsgarage]

We've had lots of silly issues with the newer FAST stuff and some issues with the other brands, too. Have you looked into BigStuff3? He's the author behind the early ACCEL units and the SpeedPro units/early FAST boxes.

i'm also really happy with the tunability of the factory GM units using the HPTuners platform, but they don't have auxilary inputs for extra data aquisition obviously.
I should add that the HPTuners platform has custom Operating Systems available which allow Boost Enrichment, and tunability for other power adders (while still using an OEM ECU). But this is obviously a solution for the factory EFI GM engines 97 and newer.

[will69camaro]

I'm very early in on running my car but I have the Holley Dominator. Went with Dominator over HP as I am using a DBW TB. Really like all the input/output options I have. Seems endless to what I can run.

I do have dual O2's, has boost control, manages the fan with PWM C6 controller (like the thread on this forum clearly explains).

It's just a nice piece. Setting it up and starting the car up was simple. Configured it for my setup and had the car started after wiring it in minutes. GUI is pretty good also.

[novahollic]

Did you use the HP Holley or the dominator with the extra I/O. I thought the HP only has single O2 support and the Dominator has 2.
Thanks

I've used both. The upside to going with the Dominator, other than the extra I/O's, is DBW support, transmission control, and dual widebands.

The HP ecu is just as powerful, but doesn't have some of the fancy stuff, so if you don't need that, stick with the HP.

I've run the HP ecu on a twin turbo small block with water/meth injection since it covered all my I/O's that I needed. Admittedly, something like that would be nice to have dual widebands, but it wasn't worth the additional cost just for that feature.

[funcars]

Since I'm not running DBW, using a manual trans and no boost for now I'm probably OK with the HP instead of the Dominator and it does save a bunch of money.

Thanks for the help

[MtotheIKEo]

I haven't seen a car running the AEM ecu, tons of MS3 and Holley installations though. Holley seems like the way to go, tons of support and a proven product. HP or Dominator just depends on what your goals are.

[novahollic]

Since I'm not running DBW, using a manual trans and no boost for now I'm probably OK with the HP instead of the Dominator and it does save a bunch of money.

Thanks for the help

Sounds like you got it. Where in norcal are you? If you need some help getting it running when the time comes, let me know.

[will69camaro]

And the good news is down the road if you change your mind on the ecu, it's a very easy swap between HP and Dominator. Simple check box on the tune and the two plugs connect the same way and just more expansion slots.

[l2azorback]

And the good news is down the road if you change your mind on the ecu, it's a very easy swap between HP and Dominator. Simple check box on the tune and the two plugs connect the same way and just more expansion slots.


This is very good to know, as I just upgraded from the FAST 2.0 to Holley HP with crank trigger and MPI on my Shafiroff 540 Ultra Street. Should get dyno tuned in the next couple of weeks.

[supremeefi]

Imo the Gen 7 was one of the best "driving" systems for a very long time.

Check out the AEM, really cutting edge stuff. Super fast processor (400mips), loads of capability and easy setup and tuning. They'll be introducing the new lower priced 308 very shortly. It has virtually everything the 508 does except it's void of the DBW and VVC. Plus it'll accommodate dual channel O2's. Sounds like that would be better for your application anyway.
Their software and support is very good as well. I personally have had some issues with trying to get someone on the phone at Holley, and email requests have normally taken a couple of days.

But whatever you do, take your time to check them all out thoroughly. Download their respective software and check it out for yourself. That will tell you a lot about the system and it's capabilities.

Hope this helps.

[funcars]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the info on AEM. I found the announcement on their website. I prefer having a built in wideband controller so the more expensive 508 would be the best option for me. I like that it can do on the fly map switching (I have an EFI motorcycle that could do that back in 2002) but with a harness it's a bit more than a Holley HP set-up. The map switching feature might be a reason to choose it as long as the hardware is robust.
I know AEM has been a big player in the import market and it looks like they are trying to get some volume from the V8 crowd now. I saw a few of the recent magazine articles (seems more like advertising though) and really wanted to get a more unbiased view but there is very little out there. Your idea to download the software from the various vendors and play with it is a great idea.

I agree that the Gen 7 EFI worked pretty well once you figured it out - it's just the documentation you could get as a non-installation center user was very weak. Accel seemed to be targeting the hotrodders that did not want to do work themselves and that was frustrating when I was helping a friend tune his. I don't think they helped themselves with their business approach.

Thanks

[supremeefi]

Accel supported their dealers first, not the privateer. The problem was too many of their "dealers" had no business selling EFI systems. That was, and still is an industry problem.
I know someone who recently put the Infinity 508 on his 8 stack 447 SBC. 8 stacks can be very finicky but this runs really really well. Let me know if you'd like to get in touch with him. He'd give you the honest scoop about the tuning and it's features and benefits.

[funcars]

Hi Mark,
I sent you an e-mail with my contact info.
Thanks

[andrewb70]

I can't speak first hand about the AEM, but I do own a Holley Dominator. I have found it very easy to use and really love the versatility. I run it on a Gen 4 LS engine with a Holley HiRam intake and dual DBW throttle bodies. Sort of made to look like an old school dual quad set-up. I don't know if AEM can support dual DBW TBs...

I also love the PWM fan control and the versatility of all the I/Os that the Dominator offers.

I've heard that Holley tech support can be sketchy, but there is an excellent support forum with the user community that is eager to help. I also find that if you can find 3-4 buddies that also run a system, then it gets easier helping each other out.

Andrew

[jonathonar89]

We've had lots of silly issues with the newer FAST stuff and some issues with the other brands, too. Have you looked into BigStuff3? He's the author behind the early ACCEL units and the SpeedPro units/early FAST boxes.

i'm also really happy with the tunability of the factory GM units using the HPTuners platform, but they don't have auxilary inputs for extra data aquisition obviously.
I should add that the HPTuners platform has custom Operating Systems available which allow Boost Enrichment, and tunability for other power adders (while still using an OEM ECU). But this is obviously a solution for the factory EFI GM engines 97 and newer.

X2 on the BS3 reference.

Big Stuff 3 efi is used by many of the top drag racers in the country. BS3 has been around a while and is also one of the first aftermarket efi systems that has been able to control late model GM electronic transmissions. For any of you who want to read a little bit about John Meaney of Big Stuff 3, check the following article.


Aftermarket EFI Systems - Tech - Mr. EFI
John Meaney And The Birth Of Aftermarket Engine Control
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/0704gm-mr-efi/

[andrewb70]

Sorry, but BS3 is so 2001. That box is seriously outdated.

Andrew

[jonathonar89]

Sorry, but BS3 is so 2001. That box is seriously outdated.

Andrew

The software was just updated this year for BS3 users and, again, BS3 has been able to control late model GM transmissions many years. It wasn't until about 5 years ago, that you could get a Holley Dominator which is able to do that. 2001 puts BS3 a good 10 years ahead of what Holley Dominator systems have just been able to match.

Megasquirt just released MS3-Pro Ultimate at PRI a few weeks ago. Holley efi must be outdated and so 2011 now ;)

[supremeefi]

The software was just updated this year for BS3 users and, again, BS3 has been able to control late model GM transmissions many years. It wasn't until about 5 years ago, that you could get a Holley Dominator which is able to do that. 2001 puts BS3 a good 10 years ahead of what Holley Dominator systems have just been able to match.

Megasquirt just released MS3-Pro Ultimate at PRI a few weeks ago. Holley efi must be outdated and so 2011 now ;)

But none of those have the processor that the AEM does.
And BS3's claim to fame has been with the drag racing community largely because of it's datalogging capacity. Drivability however isn't as good as some of the others.

[andrewb70]

But none of those have the processor that the AEM does.
And BS3's claim to fame has been with the drag racing community largely because of it's datalogging capacity. Drivability however isn't as good as some of the others.

The Holley EFI systems have amazing data logging capabilities and drive awesome.

Andrew

[jonathonar89]

Here's some recent news for you guys who think BS3 is outdated...

Monday, August 1st, 2016

BigComm Pro is the new BS3 software application to enable high fidelity tuning of BS3 Engine Management systems. This, combined with MegaLogViewer BigStuff3 and new Android interfaces make the BigComm Pro software suite the most complete tuning package available.



Also, here's a link to see some of the new software...

http://bigcommpro.com/about




Here's some results from Big Stuff 3 users in the racing scene the past two months. I have pulled this from the BS3 Facebook page. Check out the bold letters below for fastest street car record....


No Mercy 7 (10/9)
Shawn Fisher - X275 Winner!
Joel Greathouse - Ultimate Street Runner-up!
ODR - Phil Hines Runner-up!

NHRA Div 2 (10/16)
Al Ackerman - Comp Eliminator Winner! 2 in a row!

NMCA West - World Finals (10/16)
Greg Seth-Hunter - ProMod Winner! NMCA West ProMod Champion!
Ryan Jones - Limited Street Runner-up!
Anthony Smith - Outlaw 8.5 Winner! NMCA West Outlaw 8.5 Champion!

World Cup Finals (11/4)
Mike Modeste - Radial vs. Modified Winner! Check out Mike's Winner Circle picture and video

Orlando World Street Nationals XXIII (11/13)
John Carinci - Outlaw 10.5 vs. PDR #1 Qlf'r & Winner!
Charles Hull - Street Outlaw #1 Qlf'r & Winner!
Chris Lancaster - Ultra Street #1 Qlf'r & Winner!
Jeff Lutz - Lowered Fastest Street Car record to 5.85 @ 250 mph! Check out Jeff's awesome 5.87 & 251mph pass

NHRA Auto Club Finals @ Pomona (11/13)
Bill Skillman - Super Stock Runner-up!

SCSN @ LasVegas (11/20)
Mike Bowman - ProMod Winner! Check out Mike's winning final run video
Norman Chang - XDR Winner & top speed!
Eric Gustafson - XDR Runner-up & low ET!
Roger Holder - RVW Runner-up & low ET!
Greg Seth-Hunter - Outlaw 10.5 #1 Qlf'r!

[TurboChris]

Bs3 seems to work pretty well for the world's fastest street car. I'm not saying there isn't a lot of great stuff available on the market today, but I would definitely say a used bs3 or fast xfi system can be a very good value.
If purchasing new I personally would take a good look at the haltech elite 2500 or the fueltech systems myself.

Drag week, 1000 miles, 5.80's in the quarter mile
http://www.roadkill.com/video-jeff-lutz-runs-5-87-at-251-mph-worlds-fastest-street-legal-car/

http://www.dragzine.com/news/jeff-lutz-rolls-out-ex-pro-mod-for-drag-week-unlimited-competition/

http://cdn.dragzine.com/image/2015/09/2015-09-13_19-48-39.jpg

[andrewb70]

Here's some recent news for you guys who think BS3 is outdated...

Monday, August 1st, 2016

BigComm Pro is the new BS3 software application to enable high fidelity tuning of BS3 Engine Management systems. This, combined with MegaLogViewer BigStuff3 and new Android interfaces make the BigComm Pro software suite the most complete tuning package available.



Also, here's a link to see some of the new software...

http://bigcommpro.com/about




Here's some results from Big Stuff 3 users in the racing scene the past two months. I have pulled this from the BS3 Facebook page. Check out the bold letters below for fastest street car record....


No Mercy 7 (10/9)
Shawn Fisher - X275 Winner!
Joel Greathouse - Ultimate Street Runner-up!
ODR - Phil Hines Runner-up!

NHRA Div 2 (10/16)
Al Ackerman - Comp Eliminator Winner! 2 in a row!

NMCA West - World Finals (10/16)
Greg Seth-Hunter - ProMod Winner! NMCA West ProMod Champion!
Ryan Jones - Limited Street Runner-up!
Anthony Smith - Outlaw 8.5 Winner! NMCA West Outlaw 8.5 Champion!

World Cup Finals (11/4)
Mike Modeste - Radial vs. Modified Winner! Check out Mike's Winner Circle picture and video

Orlando World Street Nationals XXIII (11/13)
John Carinci - Outlaw 10.5 vs. PDR #1 Qlf'r & Winner!
Charles Hull - Street Outlaw #1 Qlf'r & Winner!
Chris Lancaster - Ultra Street #1 Qlf'r & Winner!
Jeff Lutz - Lowered Fastest Street Car record to 5.85 @ 250 mph! Check out Jeff's awesome 5.87 & 251mph pass

NHRA Auto Club Finals @ Pomona (11/13)
Bill Skillman - Super Stock Runner-up!

SCSN @ LasVegas (11/20)
Mike Bowman - ProMod Winner! Check out Mike's winning final run video
Norman Chang - XDR Winner & top speed!
Eric Gustafson - XDR Runner-up & low ET!
Roger Holder - RVW Runner-up & low ET!
Greg Seth-Hunter - Outlaw 10.5 #1 Qlf'r!

Thanks for a cut and paste.

Holley is used I all pro-stock cars. Do you have a car with BS3?

Andrew

[TurboChris]

Thanks for a cut and paste.

Holley is used I all pro-stock cars. Do you have a car with BS3?

Andrew

Not to discredit you or holley but it's mandated to run the holley hp as the only efi for use in pro stock, part number 554-129. It's a specific hp ecu and I can't find it for sale even on holley's website, probably have to buy it right from the nhra so they can get there markup on it.

I know you weren't quoting me but yes I do run a bs3 in my street/strip car, 16 injectors, lots of street time and e85 fueled for both street and track.
The bs3 is an excellent and easy to use main stream high end ecu with a better than oem harness and connector set. As Jon said it's only gotten better since the new software was release this past year.
I wouldn't discount it as being an excellent system to pick up used at a good value on the cheap.
Nothing wrong with a holley system as well, depending on one's needs the hp and dominator are both excellent values. Just be careful with that mini usb port, the holley ecu's are potted and can not be repaired.

My street car, 16 120lb injectors controlled by bs3.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/649/31116679704_536699f9a1_b.jpg

[jonathonar89]

Thanks for a cut and paste.

Holley is used I all pro-stock cars. Do you have a car with BS3?

Andrew

No Andrew, I have a Megasquirt 2 I'm working on at the moment. It controls, fuel, timing and has some additional features like boost/nitrous control but I don't need the extras to build an efi system using TBI and HEI on my 4 speed Poncho. I had FAST XFI 2.0 but sold it because it was pretty much overkill for what I'm building and I wanted to build out my whole system. In my case I simply don't need Megasquirt 3, MS3-Pro, Holley Dominator, or the XFI 2.0 like I used to have. You've seen my stuff when I had the FAST and we've exchanged conversation on efi subjects on the Pro-Touring forum. My profile over there is F-Body International.

I used to glorify the Holley as well, but after going over efi topics with my friends and being on the forums, I have become less and less impressed by Holley efi. I'm not saying it's bad, but I've just become less impressed. In the end most efi systems generally do the same thing. You really have to know what you're talking about to say one is better than the other. I personally would rather have an ecu that is serviceable and also able to upgrade. For instance, with FAST, you can start with a base XFI unit and add traction control, logging, etc. With Holley you're stuck with what you have if you buy the HP/Terminator box and it can't be upgraded to the Dominator.

My Megasquirt MS2 carb-to-efi kit was around $600 and came in at about $750 once I added my Innovate LC-2 wideband setup...Black Friday sale at www.diyautotune.com

[gnx7]

A little more info for those shopping EFI systems.... at PRI the MS3Pro Ultimate system was released. This bridges the price gap essentially between the Holley HP which has lesser I/O ports and the Dominator which has a ton of I/O's.

The MS3Pro Ultimate in essence does what the Holley Dominator can do.... at just around the Holley HP price. The Holley systems while not included in their package when you order it.... need (2) 0-100psi pressure sensors for oil and fuel pressure which add another $200+.

I run the HP in n/a cars and forced induction cars can benefit more from running the Dominator setup for boost by gear/time etc. Had the MS3 Pro been available when I bought my systems.... I would've tried that for sure. Plus it is 100% made in the USA with a LIFETIME warranty. They have harnesses premade for the 24x and 58x LSx applications.
https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ms3pro-ultimate-standalone-engine-management-system/

[supremeefi]

I run the HP in n/a cars and forced induction cars can benefit more from running the Dominator setup for boost by gear/time etc. Had the MS3 Pro been available when I bought my systems.... I would've tried that for sure. Plus it is 100% made in the USA with a LIFETIME warranty. They have harnesses premade for the 24x and 58x LSx applications.
https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ms3pro-ultimate-standalone-engine-management-system/

There are a few systems out there like the MS3 that are capable of the same things at less cost than a Dominator. The latest AEM Infinity is one of those as well.

[cjsgarage]

I'm glad this is taking off. The Haltech and AEM I wouldn't say are as user friendly as some of the stuff out there. The Holley stuff is really dummy proof with new users and generic tuning.

The Haltech, MS3PRO and BS3 are more detailed tuning. The average joe may not go as deep as those do, but they have the options for it.

If you're discrediting the BS3, it's because you haven't used it. The guy that designed it was the author of EFI boxes for a bunch of companies. Including FAST. He left for obvious reasons. He knows his stuff and heavily supports GMs (as mentioned). I've been very happy with his interfaces and tuning potential.


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[supremeefi]

I'm glad this is taking off. The Haltech and AEM I wouldn't say are as user friendly as some of the stuff out there. The Holley stuff is really dummy proof with new users and generic tuning.

Maybe you haven't used the AEM Infinity. It's extremely user friendly. I've done a half dozen so far and it's easy to set up. I just loaded a very generic VE each time and they all fired right up and actually ran quite well right away.

The Haltech, MS3PRO and BS3 are more detailed tuning. The average joe may not go as deep as those do, but they have the options for it.

If you're discrediting the BS3, it's because you haven't used it. The guy that designed it was the author of EFI boxes for a bunch of companies. Including FAST. He left for obvious reasons. He knows his stuff and heavily supports GMs (as mentioned). I've been very happy with his interfaces and tuning potential.

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Yes John Meaney is very knowledgeable. One of his first stints was at Accel, then Speed Pro(FAST). I understand years ago he was at Holley for a short time as well. I guess he works best on his own.
But I didn't see any of the new features that would enhance drivability. The BS3 is very good, no doubt. But in my experience it doesn't give the drivability than even a nearly 20 year old Accel Gen 7 will. Imo that was probably Johns best work.

[StarlinerJack]

this is all great info thanks. Im subscribed

[Jr]

on holleys site, it says that pwm are built in/ come with it... Can I use these pwm to run the fans?

[cjsgarage]

on holleys site, it says that pwm are built in/ come with it... Can I use these pwm to run the fans?



It should be able to do PWM fan control.


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[funcars]

I ran across this old thread and thought I'd give an update on the AEM Infinity 508 I installed with my fairly big cammed Ford motor.

Some irritations - AEM made a mis-marked harness that switched the cam and crank sensor connections. I had to bring a scope home from work to figure out why I was having problems getting it to run. Small cable assy mistake made by AEM that burned a lot of my time. Not super stable for using with windows 10 - seems to disconnect a lot but windows 7 on another computer is solid. Hopefully it's something they improve on with new FW releases. The manual is OK but not super detailed so getting guidance from their techs and forum is needed to understand all the capabilities and set up approaches. Unfortunately the forum is down right now. Not as heavily used as the Holley so harder to find guidance and info from other sources.

Good stuff - Once I found and fixed the harness problem it was pretty easy to get going and running reasonably well at idle and midrange and above even with a big cam. I expected more tuning to be needed for a big cam at lower rpms and it has enough capability for that. Adjustments in the VE and timing tables are super easy to do. The techs are responsive to emails. There are a good number of baselines to start from that will get it up and running. Except for the cam/crank harness that was mis-marked the quality of the cable assemblies is very good and the Deutsch connectors used are reliable, solid and easy to assemble ( better than weatherpack).

Overall - It works for me being an engineer but it has pros and cons just like everything. If you are technically savvy it's a good choice but if you need more technical support and guidance one of the more widely used options might be better.