What is "Best"?

[tyoneal]

This is in regards to a 1969 Camaro.

To All:

It seems that every company has a good product in one or more aspect of a good suspension, however, I'm not hearing that anyone has something that is distictively, "Better", than anyone else.

There is a lot of debate one way or the other, much of it really compelling, but, none of it really substanciated. Actual Test Data is scarce, just about everything is subjective and anecdotal. I appreciate the businesses who make this forum available for us to gather at to discuss and learn about this great American Pastime. I also understand someone wanting to advertise and push their products. Further, I have no doubt that all of the businesses who sponser this site make good quality products.

This being said however, there has to be a "best" system or part for Pro-Touring/Road Racing that stands above the rest. From what I have read so far is basically, everyone is as good as everyone else. Now that may in fact be true, but not necessarily.

I really wish there was some hard data available for these different systems/parts so one could shop according to their Wants, Needs or Budget. You could argue we have that now, except I haven't seen a clear leader in any of the similar products offered by a number of different Companies.

If I have missed this data somewhere, could someone please point me in the right direction.

I personally would consider spending the extra money necessary to purchase a, "Better or a Best", system if it was possible to figure out what that was. Is there a reason a, "Best", system has not been put on the market for this application?

If the specific application makes this question so hard to answer, what are the variables that cause this difficulty?

What are the different types of, "Pro-Touring", that one should be aware of when looking for and buying parts?

Is a, "Best", system inherently subjective? Are all the companies products so good that if cost was not an issue, nothing about these products would change significantly?

I'm really looking forward to some insite into these questions.

Thanks,

tyoneal

[MODO Innovations]

This might not be what you are looking for but it is a good read anyway.
It is a story about DSE. For suspension components, or anything else they offer you can't go wrong.


http://www.stewartcomponents.com/cgi-script/SCArticles/articles/000002/000231.htm

[Teetoe_Jones]

I think you are going to get as many answers as you have products available.

You might want to narrow the categories. The best bolt on subframe won't compare to a scratch built full framed car. The price levels on each are also very far apart. Some aren't willing to cut up a car and require a bolt on part. Others prefer to build a car to meet exact criteria. A great example of this is John Parson's II Much. He has the 'Best' of everything on the car, and hardly anything is an off the shelf item.


Give us your list of things you will do (or have a shop do), won't do, and maybe an intended usage for the vehicle. (Be realistic to YOU. You are the main one driving the car once completed, make sure its enjoyable in its intended role.) A realistic budget we have to recommend 'best' brands for each section of the build (suspension, brakes, etc) would help too.


If I'm to help you go in a certain direction for your car, I want to feel I gave you the best advice I can with the info you gave me.


Tyler

[Payton King]

Best answer that I have heard or read for that matter Tyler.!


Decide what you want to do with the car and work backwards. Some will beat the crap out of their car and others will just cruise and smile. Keep in mind that the best street car is not so hot on the track, and a great track car is not so hot on the street. The key is what you want and try to strike a balance of what is acceptable road manners for your car.

Good luck

[Steve Chryssos]

Over the last two years, PHR and Super Chevy have run a number of vehicle tests in both their car features and their tech articles. Spend some time clicking thru the archives on their websites. A lot of data is readily available with more on the way. You just have to go looking for it.
And remember that data is a double edged sword. No matter how valid the data might be, there will always be someone who disagrees with the results. Take it all with a grain of salt because in the real world, differences in data usually mean very little on a hot rod driven on the street at 5/10ths.

[XcYZ]

IMO, it boils down to your definition of best. Everything is a trade off. As noted above, we give up some performance for the sake of ride, we give up some ride comfort for the sake of performance. I say set a goal for the car, outline it's intended use, then design the build accordingly.

[astroracer]

Define "best" as you see fit for your car or situation. As everyone above has said, you HAVE to define the end usage for your car and then use the "best" parts that fit that description...
As an example:
The "best" set of road racing control arms in the world will do you no good on a street driven car. I see this question asked here all the time and it is frustrating to see guys spending thousands of dollars on equipment that they will never get the full benefit from. Sure is pretty though... :hail: Payton hit the nail on the head with his comment. " Keep in mind that the best street car is not so hot on the track, and a great track car is not so hot on the street." Again, what are you building? Race car or street car...
Another example:
A street driven car will see night and day benefits from a good bushing, sway bar and shock upgrade which is much less spendy then a full set of custom control arms but, it is a "better" upgrade for the end usage. To get the full effect from a set of custom arms (on a track) the bushings are usually solid and these, along with radical alignment settings, just don't work well on a street driven car.
As you stated in your first post the definition of "best" is highly subjective and that definition, again, is defined by you and your car.
Mark

[Stuart Adams]

There is no "best" in terms of what you are asking.

A 69 Camaro road racing/pro touring setup is your question.

Even the best road racers alter setups all the time and their setup would be completly different for street cruising.

No such thing as best, IMO. Unless your talking about the Steelers, LOL.

[trapin]

Another thing to remember is, before you buy something...ask yourself if it's really necessary. Are you putting the part on your car for the "bling effect" or do you feel it's really going to be needed for the application? A good example are these aftermarket control arms. Yes...there are some geometric beneifts to them, but in the grand scheme of things, you don't necessarily HAVE to have them on your car to improve your suspensions performance. Talk to David Pozzi...he's been apexing circuits (and winning) for close to 30 years and he's never needed them. Now granted if I had the money they'd be on my car because I think they look great, but it would be purely for cosmetic reasons (and there's nothing wrong with that if that's the route you're going). I'll also echo what's previously been said about street cars and race cars. My suspension looks like this....

- Stock frame
- Stock arms
- Del-A-Lum bushings
- Global West billet cross shafts
- Global West tie rod sleeves
- Helwig 1" sway bar
- Koni adjustable shocks
- Hotchkis 2" drop springs
- ATS/AFX Spindles
- Touring Classics C5 front brakes

That's all I'm going to need for a street car.

And if I ever do decide to stretch her legs on a road course...I doubt I'll have too much trouble keeping up. ;)

[tyoneal]

Ok, I think I know where you guys are going with your feedback.

My question is way to broad. I need to put in into contex as to prefrence, use, budget and so on...............

I will give this a shot by giving my goal, then my method in meeting my goal. At that point a, "Best" can be evaluated.

Car: 1969 Camaro Z/28 RS
Style - Pro-Touring/Road Racing
3 "G" Capable

Engine - BBC 565 C.I., Hogan EFI, Dart Aluminum Block, 750 hp
Transmission - 4L80e w/ Shrifter
Rear End - Ford 9 inch.

Suspension:
Front - DSE Sub-Frame, Coil-Over's, w/ 1 1/8 inch Sway Bar, 13 inch. Baer Brakes w/ 6 Piston Calipers, Rack and Pinion Steering,

Rear - DSE Triangulated Four Bar Rear Suspension, Coil Over Shock's, Baer 12 inch w/ 4 Piston Calipers, Mini-Tubs

Tires and Wheels
Rear 18X12's 335-30-18
Front 18X10 295-45-18
---------------------------------------------------------------

Let's Start with this.

Now, what is, "Best"?

tyoneal

[trapin]

I'd say you have the best of everything right there. Sounds like a killer build. Especially the engine. :thumbsup:

That's about all I can add.

[tyoneal]

Perhaps I have missed something.

Did I outline too much? Was what I outlined possible of accomplishing the desired results?

Would there be other componants that would do the same thing better?

Any advise would be welcome.

Thanks,

tyoneal

[Beast2831]

you are good to go :thumbsup: I may not have the knowledge of the others but, I think you will get the results you want with the equipment that you listed. Go for it.

[Mean 69]

Your parts list describes WAY more Pro-Touring/Street Rod than it does for Road Racing. Few people can feather the throttle on a 750 HP rat motor on the road course appropriately, especially because they make so much low end power. Further, though I have not seen the front setup, I can state without question that there is either a significant compromise in the actual suspension, or the steering, unless there is a significant engine setback, which I do not believe to be the case with the DSE setup. Sorry, you can't fit a rack and pinion underneath the engine, with a very low ride height (necessary for low COG that race cars need), and really "good road race" suspension in a front engine American car, there isn't room. Something will have to give, and does, on every one of the front offerings out there (I can hear the groans already, but I'm not afraid to debate this at all) that don't move the engine back at least 6", or more in the case of a rat motor.

Four link rear suspension systems are only used by Road Racers that haven't figured out that they bind, by design, in roll, and that this is not a good thing. Either that, or for some reason, they are bound by budget, capabilities, or rules. Maximum Motorsports, and Griggs Racing have built empires replacing the rear triangulated four link setup in the late-ish Mustangs for years with a torque arm setup, go to any American Iron race and you'll see. On top of all of that, the DSE setup is a parallel four link setup, not a triangulated one, which is better, but still not "best."

It sounds like you have a really cool project going, and the chances are you will be really happy with it when it is complete. But again, wht you describe is a really hot street car, that will probably make it around the track pretty decent if tuned correctly, with a good driver. Even without good tuning, it probably won't do anything scary, because the typical builder of such a car won't push it to the limits anyway, for fear of destroying the car in a wreck, knowing how much money was spent on it (less so for folks that pay others to build their cars, by the way, they are more prone to pushing "too" hard...).

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, please don't take it that way. Your real question should possibly be phrased more like "will my current setup allow my car to pull a g on the skipad (which is NOT a road course, by the way, not even close), a g in braking, and a g in acceleration?" To answer that, you left out the very most important factor: tires. Yes, you stated the size, but the type is far more important than just the size of the tires. On street tires? Maybe, if you are really lucky and can put enough front camber into the car to keep it from pushing "too" much, given the fact that you are running a rat motor in the stock location, but nothing short of a shaved Mich PS2 will likely allow that. R-compound tires? Uh, if you can't with these, ask for your money back from all of the suppliers that you bought from, assuming you have tuned the car. Slicks? Demand your money back, assuming tuning....

I have to ask though, if you have already made up your mind on the setup, why are you asking the question in the first place? Or are you still in the decision process and are looking for opinions on your proposed setup?

Whatever you do, just have fun with the project, and don't worry too much about the "numbers," especially if you aren't developing your own system for commercial sale. Just enjoy your car. But please, and I mean this respectfully, don't call it a Road Race car.

Mark

[tyoneal]

Mark

Thanks a Million for your remarks, that is EXACTLY what I was wanting to hear. As you probably figured out, I have some ideas, I have a budget, and hopefully by this email you will get the idea that I am open minded about the correct ways of accomplishing a task. :thumbsup:

The last time I built a car was in the late 1970's. From my list of items, it would have been a hell of a car. It still would be a hell of a nice car but I want to investigate making it more of a handling demon. :D :D

Please, feel free to list what you would do to correct this, and why the change would work. This includeds the engine setup.

I do encourage everyone to jump in. I really want to get my hands around the, "Pro-Touring", idea, both the mild to the very extreme. I think this would be very informative to a lot of people. I know I really only have a true vague idea what it really means.

I have wanted 25+ years to take the time and money to built a really fun car and I would like to do it right the first time.

I appreciate any and all earnest replies.

Thanks,

tyoneal

[Steve Chryssos]

There is very little room for superlatives in the world of Pro-Touring.

A story: Many moons ago, I took my "finished" car with early ARDF (pre-wayne due) clip to a well known chassis builder to get "fixed". He asked (grunted) the obvious question: "Whattya wanna be able to do with this thing?" My initial rant of an answer?
"I want to to dive into any corner at insane triple digit speeds!"
"I want to out corner any Lamborghini, Ferrari or Porsche!"
"I want to exceed 1g in lateral acceleration on street tires!"
"I want to autocross, to track day, to drag race!"
"I want to go to the moon and back!"
"I want!, I want!, I want!......"

The fabricator had dollar signs in his eyes and my buddy interrupted and quietly said ".....No you don't."

Stunned, I asked my buddy to clarify. His response was that I want a very capable street car. A hot rod. Not a race car. "Pick one" he said, "because there are light years between the two equations. That the car might be raced is almost inconsequential. You will be racing a hot rod.

The fabricator agreed. In the end, we decided to leave the frame rails, lower A-arms and uprights intact and modify the existing design from there. Upper shock mounts, upper A-arm mounts, engine location, rack location were tweaked. Upper A-arms were swapped. Springs and sway bars were changed..stuff like that.

But the most important part of the exercise was that I came to grips with my true objective: To build a capable street car. A hot rod. The formula you described will yield an extremely enjoyable street car. And that's a good thing.

[tyoneal]

I do think you are right, this is the formula of a very fun car.

That being said, what would make it handle better? Is this the same as making it more fun to drive? (Loaded Question)

How far can you go and remain practical for the street? (Please be specific)

Thanks,

tyoneal

[zbugger]

How far can you go and remain practical for the street? (Please be specific)

That's almost impossible to be specific on. It's really all about the owner and what you're willing to deal with/how much attention you are willing to pay to your car. There's guys with close to race cars on the street that think what they have is fine. Others have different taste and will disagree. As for how far you can really go, in the end, it's all up to you.

[Steve Chryssos]

That being said, what would make it handle better?

The formula specified wil provide significant gains over stock 60's technology. Beyond the formula specified--or one that is similar--gains for a street car would come in small percentages relative to the changes made from stock 60's technology. And those advanced changes are rarely realized on the street. The biggest gains would come from:
1) Driving school.
2) Extensive chassis reinforcement
3) Multiple sets of wheels and tires: Street, Road Race/auto-X, Drag
4) Multiple sets if springs
5) A reduction in engine output from your specified formula.

Is this the same as making it more fun to drive? (Loaded Question)
Depends on the venue. We keep coming back to this: Street or Track? You don't have to pick one, but you must prioritize. More fun on the track might mean (depending on your personal preferences) less comfort. Not less handling. Less comfort.

How far can you go and remain practical for the street? (Please be specific)
Again, subjective. Optimized spring rates and shock settings for the track wil negatively impact ride quality. Large bumps, potholes and the up and down motion from speed bumps will feel like you are in a covered wagon or a cement truck. Race tracks are not known for these types of surfaces. Short sidewalls will transmit each and every road irregularity through the car. Every pebble. Every expansion joint. A roll cage will make it more difficult to get in and out (especially out) of your car. With a roll cage, servicing the cockpit (especially under the dash) will be a real pain in the ass.
Inversely, a good, firm street setup will seem unstoppable on a back road. 75 mph in a curve recommended at 30 will be a blast. On/off ramps will make you giggle. But that same setup will usually reveal itself as "soft" on an Auto-X course where steering input is most frequent. And on a road course, cornering loads will elicit the same result.

No amount of number crunching or parts research can compensate for good practical driving experience and wrench turning. The internet has facilitated research to the point where it is easy to get hung up on data, comments, and opinions. Don't fall into that trap. Prioritize your goals, do you best to choose parts and systems that make you happy, and pull the trigger. Spend the money, make the parts fit, cry about the do-overs, and--most of all--drive the car. By your third build, things will come into focus. The car you are planning now will merely constitute practice. You will more than likely derive pleasure from the overall experience. But over time, you will learn and do things differently. You'll learn way more from seat time than from building and buying. Like a junkie, you will either kick or want more.

There is no such thing as BEST in hot rodding. Only good, better, and different. No speculation there. Just practical experience.

[Mean 69]

It is really easy to go too far in terms of turning your street driven car into a "race car," and it is important to be honest with yourself before you get into the trap.

Case in point, my 69 Camaro. Granted, it is a development vehicle for our suspension systems, so it needs to have some of the track goodies by default. Most aren't too terrible, but some really make it a pain to drive the car on a frequent relaxed basis. Getting in and out of the car is a pain, I use Cobra Suzuka racing seats, unreal for the track, comfortable enough for moderate drives, but a complete pain to ingress/egress. Five point racing harnesses are really handy, but once strapped in, I can't even reach over to grab the garage door opener. Better open or close the passenger window before you take off too! The engine emphasizes mid range and top end power to make it manageable on corner exit on the track, still makes a great torque but really spanks up top. 400 ci, normal aspiration. Cool? Well, it idles at 1k RPM, only makes 9" of vacuum, so power brakes require a hydrobooster. I took it off about a year ago to convert to manual brakes for better feel/modulation, and now it is a total pain on the street because you can't really get heat into the pads to give good bite, so you really have to pay attention around town. The car is really loud, has no A/C, and so on.

The rear suspension is set. We have enough adjustment in our system to keep all of the important attributes in check for a variety of ride heights, and can bias the setup towards certain conditions really easily, all of the hard work has been done. Totally happy on the track, totally happy and comfortable on the street, done. Putting big tires on a first gen is "easy" in the back, and honestly it's not terrible to do the mini-tub deal to other cars even though the stamped parts aren't available.

The front is much harder, you'd like to put as much tire on the car as possible to better balance front to rear grip, in hopes to maximize total grip of the car. As I eluded to previously, solving the front issues is very, very difficult when you start to put big rubber on the car. Many of the weaknesses of typical front suspension systems are masked by the smallish forgiving tires that are usually used, going bigger really exaggerates things, fast. It's a heck of a lot more difficult than making a narrower frame to allow better turning radius. One thing I noted immediately when going from a 245 tire to a 275 tire up front on the 69 is that the power steering pump couldn't keep up. I replaced it with a race piece, and the "problem" was solved. For a while, that is. What wasn't obvious is that even though "I" am not working terribly hard to steer the car, the steering components are, and as a result they will wear faster. My wonderful AGR steering box got far looser pretty quickly. Tramlining (tendancy for the car to follow grooves in the road, etc) is greatly increased and very frustrating. And there's more but hopefully you get my point.

What to do? Well, I'm building another car using the lessons learned not only from my present car, but from input from dozens of others' experience. This one is a 70 Camaro, and I fully expect it to outperform the 69 in virtually every way, but will do so in a far more refined and civil manner. Again, the rear stuff is set, already installed as a matter of fact. For the front, we are doing a massive design effort, and the setup will be quite a bit different than what is currently available. Will it work? I think so, but we won't know until it's done. If it doesn't we'll learn, and apply the lessons. It will have "very" large front tires, by the way. Engine will be a 427 LS based motor, most likely, six speed, and you can bet it'll have one of Paul's terrific Hydroboost setups. Power windows too, and very likely A/C too. Sparco Milano seats are far more user friendly, and the car will have two sets of seat belts.

We have a couple more cars in progress too, a 68 Satellite crusier that will be perfect for trips to Vegas, power tour, etc. At some point, we'll build a track only car. It'll be very light, very safe, and very fast. But it won't be a street car, that's for certain.

M

[tyoneal]

Great Set of post you all!!

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your input.

Also, the items that you are personally putting on your own cars are VERY revealing and helpful. Anyone else who wants to offer information about their Street and/or Track Ride, your input would be very welcome.

Let me give you some refinement. I should of throne this in earlier, but I just didn't think to do it. I do plan on spending some decent money learning to drive this beast. I'm big on education.I shoot competitively and you cannot be worth a damn without good instruction and practice, so that will definitly be part of my driving equation.

As far as my car goes, I want it to perform very good on the street, but I want to be able to maintain some sort of comfort level by being able to drive the Power Tour and Have Fun without Being beaten to death by the end of the day, but as you said, "Taking entrance ramps fast or curves at 70 mph" easily.

Turning and cornering should be awesome for a street car. Acceleration should equallaly be as impressive.

As I was reading the post, perhaps a better solution would be a Intercooled Banks Twin Turbo SBC, instead of the BBC. The weight savings, economy, and power on demand might make a better cat and still have a hell of a punch.

Learning to adjust my driving skills to the fat 275-295 front wheels, managing the different spring rates of the coil overs and balancing all of it with a bunch of 600+ (Maybe 7-800+) power should be a great and fun learning experiance.

Would this be a better place and goal to try to meet?

How about the engine idea?

Anything else??

Thanks,

tyoneal

[tyoneal]

Correction:

OLD
The weight savings, economy, and power on demand might make a better cat and still have a hell of a punch.

NEW
The weight savings, economy, and power on demand might make a better set up and still have a hell of a punch.

I have no idea where "cat" came from. I think my keyboard was the victim of a critter by the same name. :willy:

tyoneal

[Mean 69]

I applaud you for looking for as much input into a big decision, the whole deal is really tough given all of the the info out there, products offered, opinions, etc. It's not easy, but hopefully it's really fun for you.

There are some things in terms of performance that few folks would ever argue with, and are worth consideration no matter which specific direction you decide to go with any of the stuff you're trying to pull off. With regard to handling, in "general" terms, here are a few guidelines that nature seems to have established for us.

Newton's Laws of Motion are true. All three of them. And fundamental to all is one very important, and at some level, controllable variable: mass. If you are looking to control motion at any level, minimizing mass makes all things easier. This is in general not terribly easy to overcome with early Muscle cars, they're big and heavy to begin with, but things done to reduce this aspect of the car are almost always worthwhile, if they are safe, and not "stupid." And don't just think in terms of overall mass, lowering the center of gravity, and placing as much mass towards the center of the car as practical never hurts, ever.

Technology is a really good thing. Use it, others have worked hard to develop it, there's no downside. One really, really good example is contemporary fuel injection. Why on earth would one use a carb these days? Two reasons, cost, and lack of capability to deal with FI. Both, in the big picture, are not good excuses at all, but without question, can have a HUGE influence in the short term picture. I still run a carb on at least a few of my cars because the cost benefit of performance, economy, and effort just hasn't panned out (these are cars that don't get driven too often). If you are going to build a "fresh" car, use the best available stuff, and if you can't afford it, make sure there's a path to upgrade in a practical fashion (i.e. sell the old stuff off to some one else on a budget).

Ask "why," at least four or five times. If you ever get an answer like "because it's really cool," that should tell you something. Why is it better than the stock stuff? Why is it better than brand D? H? Etc. A very wise mentor told me that if a designer/engineer/spokesperson couldn't walk you through the specifics of a product, they probably didn't know what it was that they were attempting to solve. And as a result, highly likely that they missed the target (whatever that might have been).

M

[Teetoe_Jones]

I am blown away by some of these great responses on here, especially from Mark and Steevo. That was some great advice from guys who have finished vehicles and driven them. Hard.
So far your list look very good Tyoneal. You can't be disapointed with a front suspension with hydroformed rails. :unibrow:
Suggestion wise, look into Mean69's rear suspension setup very closely. I also suggest reading up on a bunch of his old suspension posts regarding the Lateral Dynamics 3-Link. In my opinion, this is the 'Best' rear setup you can purchase as an 'off the shelf' item for a 69 Camaro. The only things that can top it (and I'm sure even Mark will agree here) is scratch built tube frame cars, as they have no initial package or sheetmetal limitations.

Engine- Ditch the BBC for something lighter.
I personally think an LS6 engine with some slight breathing-over would do the trick. They can be very reliable, make great power, and weigh next to nothing. You can even use that 4L80E with the Shrifter too.

Tyler

[tyoneal]

Tyler:

First, thanks for taking the time to add some thoughts to the discussion.

I'm wanting to clarify your statement, "Engine- Ditch the BBC for something lighter. I personally think an LS6 engine with some slight breathing-over would do the trick. They can be very reliable, make great power, and weigh next to nothing."

Isn't the LS-6, a closed chambered, iron headed 454? (Popular in the 1970 Chevelle, and Corvette) I had mentioned an Aluminum Block 565, or, more recently a TT, EFI,SBC would either one of these not be a good choice?

If I've missed something critical, excuse me, as I mentioned earlier it's been quite a while since I was able to enjoy this type of thing.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Best regards,

tyoneal

[tyoneal]

Mean69

Thanks for the great post.

I agree whole heartedly with your statement reguarding EFI. It is a definite must if at all possible. I am planning having it installed at the beginning of the build. At the time I did my early car, that type of technology was considered pretty high end stuff w/ no one I know having it. (In their HotRods)

With regards to lowering the center of gravity, what are you feelings about a Dry Sump Pump?

I have heard that the installation of the C5 Corvette Engine in their Cars is fairly involved and expensive. If this is true what is the big attraction of doing this with such good SBC technology to choose from that makes plenty of inexpensive horsepower?

Other than moving the engine back, reducing the weight of the engine and reducing the weight of the driver, (sigh) what other items should someone focus on to maximize the performance of the cars handling?(oops, I forgot lowering the weight itself)

Thanks again.

tyoneal

[Bowtieracing]

Thank you Mark for a good lesson !! Can you give us more info of your camaros 3 link suspension ?

[XcYZ]

Thank you Mark for a good lesson !! Can you give us more info of your camaros 3 link suspension ?

Mark's website is VERY close to going public, it has a ton of detailed info on 3-Link suspension technology.

[MarkM66]

Tyler wrote LS6, not LS-6 . Gen 3 vs. BBC . :D

[Mean 69]

And who would have thought such an open ended question could have been this fun!?!? As Scott said, our site is basically done, and we are very, very proud of it, and it will only improve going forward. I am running out the door, but I'll check back into this one a bit later. 'til then, have a blast!

Mark

[Payton King]

Should be a sticky as a "general info on planning a build"

Lsx motors from 97 to present corvettes and 98-2002 f bodies... and a few others. Weight fully dressed is about 450 lbs

[Steve1968LS2]

Engine- Ditch the BBC for something lighter.
I personally think an LS6 engine with some slight breathing-over would do the trick. They can be very reliable, make great power, and weigh next to nothing. You can even use that 4L80E with the Shrifter too.

Tyler

I would change that to an LS2.. the larger displacement does wonders for torque and the engine will hold more value in the car. Plus (comparing new to new) there's very little cost difference. I made 572/505 with my LS2 and all it has is a FAST intake, AFR heads and the right cam (oh, and long tubes)

Even if your LSx engine made 100hp less than the big block it wouldn't matter (in straight line acceleration) since it weighs so much less. This is even more important when it comes to handling and braking.

I will soon be praying at the 3-link alter since I want the best system out there.. Hell, I can get many systems for free if I wanted but I have chosen to pay for what I think is the best system currently on the market.

[Sales@Dutchboys]

Car looks good Payton King...

-Paul

[Steve1968LS2]

I have heard that the installation of the C5 Corvette Engine in their Cars is fairly involved and expensive. If this is true what is the big attraction of doing this with such good SBC technology to choose from that makes plenty of inexpensive horsepower?


It's as expensive as you want it to be.. if you want a brand new LS2 crate engine and all the bells and whistles expect to spend up near $10k.

If you don't find hunting for an LS1 "pull out" salvaged engine/trans combo (I got my '00 SS LS1/4L60e combo for $2800 with accesories) and go the economy route for install you could do it pretty nicely under $5k.

It really depends on what you want. Having worked with EFI so much I really can't see messing with carbs..

[Bowtieracing]

Mark's website is VERY close to going public, it has a ton of detailed info on 3-Link suspension technology.

I think this is great!! So far i have been into "DSE religion" but would really liked to have other options as well. Cant wait :thumbsup:

[Payton King]

Steve and I are building sister cars...but it was not planned that way. I want the 3 link as well, but I promised myself that I was not going to change anything until I drive my car at least once. Lateral Dynamics 3 link was not available when I was at that point in my build and I am too close to cut up my car again. Great minds must think alike. LOL Here is one for you. Steve bought Penny from a guy here in NC about 10 miles from my house. I just bought my wife a car in CA about 30 miles from Steve. Who would have thunk it.

If I had it to do over again I would go for a big inch LS2. Couple of companies out there are doing a 402 short block for about $4000. Scroggins Dickey and HPE come to mind. LS2 was not out when I built my motor...see how fast things change in this hobby. ATS, DSE, Lateral Dynamics, etc are constantly pushing the envelope. World Products now is making a new block for the LSX line called a "warlock" it can go 454 cu in the LSX package.

[tyoneal]

Thanks again for yoour comments.

I know I've seen it, but, where can I find the 3-link information that was mentioned?

What are your favorite choices for brakes?
What are the differences between the btter brands?

Thanks,

tyoneal

[Matt@Lateral Dynamics]

I know I've seen it, but, where can I find the 3-link information that was mentioned? In a couple days hopefully. :D
www.lateral-dynamics.com

[tyoneal]

I'll be looking forward to it.

Thanks,

tyoneal

[71Nova]

I plan on using a lateral dynamics 3 link as well tyoneal. I believe it is the best rear suspension you can get. Just waiting on more money. Matt I am also really looking forward to the site being up. I have done searches threw yahoo on lateral dynamics about every other week to see if you have the site up.

[XcYZ]

I plan on using a lateral dynamics 3 link as well tyoneal. I believe it is the best rear suspension you can get. Just waiting on more money. Matt I am also really looking forward to the site being up. I have done searches threw yahoo on lateral dynamics about every other week to see if you have the site up.

I'm doing Mark's website, it's pretty much dialed in, we're just polishing it up. Once it's live, Mark or Matt will most likely let everyone know. :)

[tyoneal]

Matt:

The new site looks great. I'm really interested in learning a lot more about the performance capabilities of your 3 link.

If you have the time, what does your 3 link do, that the Wayne Due rear end, or the DSE Tri-4-Bar won't do?

What is it specifically designed to do, that the other products won't do?

Is this style similar to others being used elsewhere, so that we could get a broader idea of it's design acceptance and capabilities?

How much time in hours can two people usually install this system? (Given, these two people are competent at fabrication and wielding, but have not seen the product installed before)

Thanks,

tyoneal

[Bowtieracing]

Mattwery impressive!!!!! And thank you for tech info :thumbsup: !!! Can you tell us anything about the front suspension?

[Teetoe_Jones]

tyoneal-

I'm going to save Mark's typing fingers on this one. I hope you have about 45 minutes to devote to your question, because here is your answer:

3 Link explained (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=2180)

Tyler

[tyoneal]

Tyler:

Great Link, Thanks!

It did in fact answer all my questions and then some. I look forward to hearing about some of the peoples personal experiances with it.

tyoneal

BTW: Thanks God this isn't CC.com.

[tyoneal]

Mark:

Do you have any idea when you might have a front sub-frame system for an f-body, to go with your 3-link?

Would your 3-link work with any front end? (from Stock to ???)

Any tail pipe solution(s) yet?

Thanks for your help. :thumbsup:

Ty O'Neal

[tyoneal]

To All:

Long, Long Ago in a Galaxy Far, Far Away.........

.....otherwise known as the sixties and seventies. Side Mount Headers and the Baffled Tubes that slid on them, were popular. They were fairly common on some Tracks and on the Street.

Do any PT cars use them, or, is there several reasons no one is using them???

I always thought they looked really cool on a lowered car. With wide front and rear tires I think they would possibly work perfect with the 3-link.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

[tyoneal]

I will also post this under a seperate section to get a larger sample of ideas.

Thanks,

Ty