JCG Restoration & Customs 70 Challenger 2nd Test Car!

[Flash68]

^^^

The man. The myth. The legend.

He lives.

[GregWeld]

I think the pads are the issue or the pressure isn't right at the caliper... which could be several things stacking up -- pedal ratio -- bore size -- balance.... and perhaps far too hard of a compound. We all want to think we're big time racers and need all this race stuff -- but frankly -- few of us dive into a corner the way race guys do... and we just don't build enough heat into the system..... some of these pad compounds want to see red hot rotors to work well.

Of course - as usual - I'm writing to evoke thought and research - I'm not a pad or brake expert and certainly can't drive worth a damn... just saying that I think there's something more going on here that is giving the hard pedal - or lack of stopping power - or too much effort vs not enough brake.

The manual brakes two piston front / single piston rear BAER brakes on my 4000 lb Nomad would throw you thru the windshield using your big toe... The small Wilwood system in the Mustang is awesome -- except that when driven hard you just begin to feel some fade (they're small - WTF! They can only take so much)... and even then they feel solid. The large by huge/giant 6 piston front / 4 piston rears - Wilwoods on my buddy Pierre's car are crap on the street. Takes way too much heat to get them to even begin to stop... and way too much pedal effort. I keep telling him - that's what you get when you're running race brakes on a grocery store drive.

If it was me --- I'd be putting a pressure gauge on those calipers and getting some numbers before I'd rip the system out and go power.

But then that's just me --- I know Cris is an expert at all this stuff so I'm just talking out my ass. LOL

I would ASSume the pad/rotors were properly bedded.... and that the compounds have been messed with (sometimes you have to get pads from somebody that DIDN'T make the brakes....).

[GregWeld]

Forgot my train of thought in the last post.....


The tiny little '33 Ford weighs 2975 lbs - runs 2 piston front - single piston rear Wilwoods.... with a Moal pedal assembly and dual CNC master and balance bar... THE BRAKES SUCK... The pedal is hard - takes too much effort and not enough reward given the effort applied. I told Roy he has the wrong master bore on the car... Not sure what's in there but whatever it is - it's wrong.

[Cris@JCG]

We have no brake issues with the Challenger! The brakes work good but want to make it easier to drive on the road course.. The Booster is not a band aid but an enhancement to improve on driving smoother & deeper into a turn to scrub off some speed.. Glad to see that your brake system works good for you on your Mustang..

Working for a brake company for 10 years.. I thought I knew a lot.. but when I started driving myself is where I finally realized that I had still much to learn.. Danny has taught me what it takes for brakes to survive a road course.. brake ducting, brake fluid, & most important brake pads.. Heat is your enemy on brake systems & deflection of components.. I continue to learn something new every day.. Karl is a pretty damm good driver & if I can improve his lap times with power brakes.. Then that is what he gets!

Everybody has different experiences or opinions with brakes & just like any other product that does not meet my needs or requirements.. I just take matters into my own hands! Sometimes manufactures make components so that they can be used in many different applications & the level of performance is not the same from one application to another.. I like components specifically to what my intended use is for ..

BTW- We have a full Aim Sports Data Acquisition that gives us brake bias readings..

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/jcgrestoration/IMG_3962_zps90ff6cdb.jpg (http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/jcgrestoration/media/IMG_3962_zps90ff6cdb.jpg.html)




Okay - I seriously don't get putting power brakes on a car -- to me that's a bandaid for a poor braking system.


It takes no effort to stop the Mustang or tap the brake to set for turn in.... and this car has little tiny rotors and calipers (2 piston front and single piston Corvette style rears). The Mustang takes effort to DRIVE but doesn't take any leg effort to stop or slow down. Coming from a guy that used to be in the brake business -- I'm very surprised at this issue.

I think the pads are the issue or the pressure isn't right at the caliper... which could be several things stacking up -- pedal ratio -- bore size -- balance.... and perhaps far too hard of a compound. We all want to think we're big time racers and need all this race stuff -- but frankly -- few of us dive into a corner the way race guys do... and we just don't build enough heat into the system..... some of these pad compounds want to see red hot rotors to work well.

Of course - as usual - I'm writing to evoke thought and research - I'm not a pad or brake expert and certainly can't drive worth a damn... just saying that I think there's something more going on here that is giving the hard pedal - or lack of stopping power - or too much effort vs not enough brake.

The manual brakes two piston front / single piston rear BAER brakes on my 4000 lb Nomad would throw you thru the windshield using your big toe... The small Wilwood system in the Mustang is awesome -- except that when driven hard you just begin to feel some fade (they're small - WTF! They can only take so much)... and even then they feel solid. The large by huge/giant 6 piston front / 4 piston rears - Wilwoods on my buddy Pierre's car are crap on the street. Takes way too much heat to get them to even begin to stop... and way too much pedal effort. I keep telling him - that's what you get when you're running race brakes on a grocery store drive.

If it was me --- I'd be putting a pressure gauge on those calipers and getting some numbers before I'd rip the system out and go power.

But then that's just me --- I know Cris is an expert at all this stuff so I'm just talking out my ass. LOL

I would ASSume the pad/rotors were properly bedded.... and that the compounds have been messed with (sometimes you have to get pads from somebody that DIDN'T make the brakes....).

[GregWeld]

Your build - your customer.... Not saying you shouldn't do whatever you feel like doing. Just saying that power brakes shouldn't do anything for you except to be able to run the pedal with your little toe instead of your big one.

I would find that my feet are way too busy to be trying to modulate a power brake let alone trying to trail brake one... but it's not my car. If I was only going to drive it on the street -- and I wanted a girl to drive it... then I'd put power on it. LOL :action-smiley-027:

[Matt@BOS]

Your build - your customer.... Not saying you shouldn't do whatever you feel like doing. Just saying that power brakes shouldn't do anything for you except to be able to run the pedal with your little toe instead of your big one.

I would find that my feet are way too busy to be trying to modulate a power brake let alone trying to trail brake one... but it's not my car. If I was only going to drive it on the street -- and I wanted a girl to drive it... then I'd put power on it. LOL :action-smiley-027:

Not everyone can be as manly as you, Greg.

I personally find power brakes to be much better at trail braking since the pedal generally has longer travel and is soft enough that you can roll your ankle up, instead of trying to control how fast you lift your leg of the manual brake pedal.

On the other hand, I find it much easier to work up to your threshold of braking without locking up the brakes in a manual setup. I would flat spot all of my Camaros tires really badly with a booster.

It's all give and take I guess. If I had ABS I might consider power brakes in my '69. Whatever makes Karl most comfortable on the track is what should be in the car, I think.

[Track Junky]

What ever.....you guys can have your manual brakes.

Try playing with brake pads. Youl'd be amazed at what a really good brake pad will do for what you might think is a poor brake set up

[GregWeld]

Not everyone can be as manly as you, Greg.

I personally find power brakes to be much better at trail braking since the pedal generally has longer travel and is soft enough that you can roll your ankle up, instead of trying to control how fast you lift your leg of the manual brake pedal.

On the other hand, I find it much easier to work up to your threshold of braking without locking up the brakes in a manual setup. I would flat spot all of my Camaros tires really badly with a booster.

It's all give and take I guess. If I had ABS I might consider power brakes in my '69. Whatever makes Karl most comfortable on the track is what should be in the car, I think.



Trail brake with your LEFT foot...

[Vegas69]

Opinions are like assholes. Manual brakes are great for threshold at high speed. For autocross or street, I'd prefer boosted. This after 3 different pad types and two master cylinders. I didn't have a choice so manual it was.

[Cris@JCG]

Karl has chicken legs! He needs all the help he can get.. :D


Your build - your customer.... Not saying you shouldn't do whatever you feel like doing. Just saying that power brakes shouldn't do anything for you except to be able to run the pedal with your little toe instead of your big one.

I would find that my feet are way too busy to be trying to modulate a power brake let alone trying to trail brake one... but it's not my car. If I was only going to drive it on the street -- and I wanted a girl to drive it... then I'd put power on it. LOL :action-smiley-027:

We are currently running Hawk Brake Pads! The best improvement we could have made to stop the car plus running Castrol SRF brake fluid.. The brake fluid is expensive but all forms of racing is expensive..

I played with differnet bore sizes on the master cylinders & got them better for the manual setup..

What ever.....you guys can have your manual brakes.

Try playing with brake pads. Youl'd be amazed at what a really good brake pad will do for what you might think is a poor brake set up

Opinions are like assholes. Manual brakes are great for threshold at high speed. For autocross or street, I'd prefer boosted. This after 3 different pad types and two master cylinders. I didn't have a choice so manual it was.

[Matt@BOS]

Trail brake with your LEFT foot...

That would require learning a new skill. I can barely barely stay on top of the skills I've learned and try to use.

[Track Junky]

Chris, Hawk makes several different brake compounds. Obviously in auto x your going to want a pad that works well initially and then you have the option of how strong you want the initial bite. IMO for road course you will want a pad that will operate at higher temps and obviously these pads will need a lap or two to get to optimum braking performance. I'm running a pad that most of you probably have never heard of and there are only 3 people Ive mentioned these pads to. At the same time I'm still running the Baer Track/Touring brake system which would be on the lower latter of the systems out there and have bad no complaints as long as they are bled before every event. Once again, all I'm trying to say is trying different pad compounds may sway you to stick with what you have but in addition I prefer power brakes

[57hemicuda]

I do think the pad compound, and master bore size are key. I had the best Baer had available at that time (15" 6 piston, really good stuff) and couldn't figure out why I had to stand on the brakes so hard to get the car to scrub speed. Wasn't sure that in a super panic stop I could push hard enough to get the car to stop the way I wanted.

After talking to the folks at Carbotech, they explained why that was, and what I could do to fix it. Power brakes was one of the options, the other was a lot easier. The normal compounds Baer, wildwood etc. use are kind of designed for power brakes. Once I got the masters sized right, the guys at Carbotech hooked me up with several different compounds. I settled on one which I call my Superman brakes. Different compound front to rear, but it was like putting on a cape, never thought about power brakes after that. I found if you go too aggressive on compound, you can't get enough heat for them to work right either, you end up back to needing a lot of pedal pressure to stop that way too.

They told me running the wrong pads can work with power brakes because the power assist will allow enough pedal pressure to achieve the desired brake feel, usually harder on the brakes though. I do think, what ever makes the driver more confident with pedal feel is what you need to do.

[GregWeld]

Opinions are like assholes. Manual brakes are great for threshold at high speed. For autocross or street, I'd prefer boosted. This after 3 different pad types and two master cylinders. I didn't have a choice so manual it was.




The difference is that we actually own cars.... and use them.






I do think the pad compound, and master bore size are key. I had the best Baer had available at that time (15" 6 piston, really good stuff) and couldn't figure out why I had to stand on the brakes so hard to get the car to scrub speed. Wasn't sure that in a super panic stop I could push hard enough to get the car to stop the way I wanted.

After talking to the folks at Carbotech, they explained why that was, and what I could do to fix it. Power brakes was one of the options, the other was a lot easier. The normal compounds Baer, wildwood etc. use are kind of designed for power brakes. Once I got the masters sized right, the guys at Carbotech hooked me up with several different compounds. I settled on one which I call my Superman brakes. Different compound front to rear, but it was like putting on a cape, never thought about power brakes after that. I found if you go too aggressive on compound, you can't get enough heat for them to work right either, you end up back to needing a lot of pedal pressure to stop that way too.

They told me running the wrong pads can work with power brakes because the power assist will allow enough pedal pressure to achieve the desired brake feel, usually harder on the brakes though. I do think, what ever makes the driver more confident with pedal feel is what you need to do.




Thus my earlier post about all of us running the big boy full race stuff.... but there's problems with that because we run 10 or 20 LAPS --- or go out hot on an Auto X course... with ZERO chance for heat to begin to work.

Carbotech my suggest some girlie Ceramic pads for Karls "chicken legs"....


Or Cris can put a bandaid on his problem.

[Track Junky]

I do think the pad compound, and master bore size are key.

IMO you nailed it right there Ron. Bore size and compound.

[Vegas69]

He also nailed it when he said, whatever makes you the most comfortable. Debating about the best brake set up is like arguing over your favorite beer or politics.

[GregWeld]

He also nailed it when he said, whatever makes you the most comfortable. Debating about the best brake set up is like arguing over your favorite beer or politics.



It's not called arguing -- it's called a forum where people discuss various aspects of their cars (on this forum) and sometimes people even learn stuff just by reading or participating in these discussions.

People learn lots of stuff with an exchange of opinions... Nobody has said (that I've read anyway) "you're an idiot because you don't do "X" my way"....

[GregWeld]

I drove 12 hours today and am a bit "rummy".....



Just wanted folks to know the reason I chimed in on Cris's thread in the first place is because I think LOTS of people have spent a small fortune on the biggest baddest brakes that money can buy -- and are in a similar position of not really liking the performance... but are afraid to admit it or post it up. Thus a good discussion about the various possible fixes --- whether it's power or pad - or ratio or bore size --- I thought was a good topic.

[GregWeld]

Re-read this post and it sounds MEAN --- and that wasn't my intent. I'm too rummy to post a good thought.. :>)




It's not called arguing -- it's called a forum where people discuss various aspects of their cars (on this forum) and sometimes people even learn stuff just by reading or participating in these discussions.

People learn lots of stuff with an exchange of opinions... Nobody has said (that I've read anyway) "you're an idiot because you don't do "X" my way"....

[Track Junky]

Go take a nap Weld :lol:

[Ron in SoCal]

You are mean. Part of your charm xox

[GregWeld]

You are mean. Part of your charm xox




Yeah -- pretty much.




LOL

[Jr]

Next phase for the car is to pull motor & make some changes.. Ditching the manual brakes.. going with Master cylinder & booster from a 2008 Z06 Corvette..

It's all about trial and error. Cris has a solution. I can't wait to hear about how the new solution works.

[Flash68]

He also nailed it when he said, whatever makes you the most comfortable. Debating about the best brake set up is like arguing over your favorite beer or politics.

Well there is no argument about one thing. The beer you drink sucks.

Go take a nap Weld :lol:

Did Weld start drinking again? :cheers:

[57hemicuda]

The chicken leg comment was over the top and hilarious. I'm picturing Karl at the gym this very morning doing squats. Its all in good fun, and if we pick up a nugget of information while busting each others balls, then that's good too.

[GregWeld]

Well there is no argument about one thing. The beer you drink sucks.


Did Weld start drinking again? :cheers:




I liked the fact that Todd had an opinion, on others having an opinion.....



30 years of sobriety in May. Good gawd I'm boring.

[Track Junky]

It's all about trial and error. Cris, has a solution. I can't wait to hear about how the new solution works.

Ding, Ding, Ding We have a winnner.

Yeah, I have had solutions too. And solutions for those solutions. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Vegas69]

It's not called arguing -- it's called a forum where people discuss various aspects of their cars (on this forum) and sometimes people even learn stuff just by reading or participating in these discussions.

People learn lots of stuff with an exchange of opinions... Nobody has said (that I've read anyway) "you're an idiot because you don't do "X" my way"....

Excuse me...:D

Stielow runs power, Hobaugh runs manual. They have both won the Optima Challenge.

I ran carbotech's on the street. Xp10 and AX6 I believe. They moaned and squealed like a pig. They were great on the road course, not so much everywhere else. I found the Hawk HP Plus to be the best all around pad giving up some performance on the road course. The stock wildwood pads were terrible. Hobaugh said my brakes were great. I'd still put power brakes similar to my Vette on another car if it was to be driven on a public road or autocrossed.

[Matt@BOS]

Excuse me...:D

Stielow runs power, Hobaugh runs manual. They have both won the Optima Challenge.

I ran carbotech's on the street. Xp10 and AX6 I believe. They moaned and squealed like a pig. They were great on the road course, not so much everywhere else. I found the Hawk HP Plus to be the best all around pad giving up some performance on the road course. The stock wildwood pads were terrible. Hobaugh said my brakes were great. I'd still put power brakes similar to my Vette on another car if it was to be driven on a public road or autocrossed.

Next year you'll probably be arguing for a transmission like the 'Vette has for public roads or autocross. :lol:

[Al Moreno]

It's not called arguing -- it's called a forum where people discuss various aspects of their cars (on this forum) and sometimes people even learn stuff just by reading or participating in these discussions.

People learn lots of stuff with an exchange of opinions... Nobody has said (that I've read anyway) "you're an idiot because you don't do "X" my way"....


I have to agree with Weld on this one. This is some of the best info on braking I have read "IN THE UNIVERSE"!!!!

Thanks or sharing guys.

[Vegas69]

Next year you'll probably be arguing for a transmission like the 'Vette has for public roads or autocross. :lol:

That and ass warmers. :D

[Cris@JCG]

Go bored with the look in the engine bay! Looking for some more power on the top end.. setting the rev limiter to 7200! Testing this weekend @ Streets of Willow.. Then we are off to Portland for the USCA event.. Plus we got a C5 Z06 Corvette that we just did a LS7 swap!

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/jcgrestoration/IMG_4062_zps7e8211f8.jpg (http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/jcgrestoration/media/IMG_4062_zps7e8211f8.jpg.html)

[syborg tt]

I love that intake but does it fit under the hood

[Cris@JCG]

Cutting up the TA hood right now.. We barely cleared it!


I love that intake but does it fit under the hood

[65_LS1_T56]

Cutting up the TA hood right now..

Oh boy...here comes the hate mail :lol:


You gonna make it to Motorstate Chris? I think I remember Good Ron saying you were not.

[Cris@JCG]

I get alot of crap for the LS in the Mopar.. but when this thing comes down the track screaming @ WOT.. People just over see it.. sometimes..

Unfornately I will not be making it to Motorstate this year.. I have family coming in from TX that did not allow me to go racing.. Plus I am driving the Challenger @ Portland.. Motorstate is one of my favorite events!


Oh boy...here comes the hate mail :lol:


You gonna make it to Motorstate Chris? I think I remember Good Ron saying you were not.

[Cris@JCG]

Here is a video of me driving @ USCA in Fontana..

V8nevRe1Uls&list=UUNj3x4Eo0wdD5rmJIaJfM3Q

[Flash68]

Here is a video of me driving @ USCA in Fontana..

V8nevRe1Uls&list=UUNj3x4Eo0wdD5rmJIaJfM3Q

Cris, your lines were pretty good....



















when you were following Rockin Rob. :lol:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Cutting up the TA hood right now.. We barely cleared it!

SIX PACK HOOD SIX PACK HOOD!!!! :theresa: :theresa: :theresa:

[Rick D]

Nice run Cris, I keep saying he has way more power then the other cars out there shouldn't be to long be for you pass them!!

[efs69]

The car is already fast. What kind of power bump will the intake give?

[tom091074]

That is nothing.. You should see the way our welder outlets are thru out the shop! :superhack:

Electrician is due next week to fix that..

I'm an electrician if you want to work out a trade? :D

[GregWeld]

I'm an electrician if you want to work out a trade? :D



If I was an inspector -- I'd have red tagged the building.

[tom091074]

If I was an inspector -- I'd have red tagged the building.

This one is way worse!

[Jtomas801]

The Challenger keeps getting better, keep up the great work!

This one is way worse!

Nothing 2 more extension boxes can't fix ;)


Jon

[tom091074]

The Challenger keeps getting better, keep up the great work!



Nothing 2 more extension boxes can't fix ;)


Jon

True.

[Cris@JCG]

My afternoon sessions were faster as I cleaned up my driving & was shown what were cleaner lines.. plus was shifting sooner instead of hitting the rev limiter plus was only in 3rd & 4th gear..

Cris, your lines were pretty good....

when you were following Rockin Rob. :lol:

Uncertain what power gains we will see but hoping to some power that we lost in the top end with the cam swap we did.. Yesterday we tuned the car & feel a bit of a difference.. but the biggest improvement was how much cooler the air temp was while driving.. as soon as you shut the car off the heat soak of the intake would get hot..

The car is already fast. What kind of power bump will the intake give?

Still sitting the same as the last picture! :D

If I was an inspector -- I'd have red tagged the building.

[Jr]

Cris,
Did you change the brakes? If so, how did they work? Will you share the new setup?

[Track Junky]

Enjoyed the vid Chris. 200 TW tires are way too much work. :lol:

[MCB Matt]

This one is way worse!

As a previous Electrician as well, that J box is a MESS!!! I can't believe some Tradesmen would do work like that nice little fire hazzard, not to mention the poor guy who has to troubleshoot in that little 4 sq box!

Matt

[Cris@JCG]

So last Saturday (July 26th) took the Challenger out for some testing with the new intake to Streets of Willow & hurt the engine.. I thought I was done & was not going to make the event with USCA in Portland but Karl let me borrow a back up motor for the event.. bone stock LS3 crate engine with a cam.. 525 hp crate engine.. Rev limiter was set at 6600 rpm.. no time to break in the engine.. but managed to get the engine swaped out in one day.. & off to the event. PIR was one hell of a track!!! It took me awhile to get used driving on that back straight..

Some video! I made due with what I had.. was early breaking with appexing.. but that is where I felt comfortable driving.. Plus it sucked being down HP & torque!

USJJvFgM4Ao&list=UUNj3x4Eo0wdD5rmJIaJfM3Q

[GregWeld]

There is no break in on a roller cam motor....

[efs69]

Chris what program or app are you using for the video capture with data? Also on the rear spoiler do you make something like that for a first generation camaro?

[Cris@JCG]

Using the Smarty cam & data logger from http://www.aim-sportline.com/index_eng.htm..

Have not made a spoiler like the one from the Challenger for any 1st gen Camaros.. but got a 69 coming in next month for some aero work.. I will let ya know if come up with something...



Chris what program or app are you using for the video capture with data? Also on the rear spoiler do you make something like that for a first generation camaro?

[efs69]

Using the Smarty cam & data logger from http://www.aim-sportline.com/index_eng.htm..

Have not made a spoiler like the one from the Challenger for any 1st gen Camaros.. but got a 69 coming in next month for some aero work.. I will let ya know if come up with something...

Thanks Cris.

[adamp]

AMAZING!!! This car is just perfect! I joined this forum just for this thread (a member of forabodiesonly turned me on to it.

I am currently in the process of putting an LS in my 1970 Dodge Dart. You're Challenger is just beautiful... I have a site for all LS swapped cars including mine www.builttobedriven.com

would you mind if I featured your ride once I get the section going?

:king:
:king:
:king:

[Cris@JCG]

Thank you for the compliments on the 70 Challenger! This car has been an absolute blast to not only race it but the privlidge of building ... I am glad that we will not only be the only ones with an LS Mopar.. We got notified a few weeks ago that we have a feature story in Hot Rod Magazine.. Great honor to get some ink in that magazine.. we have no problems with you doing a feature on the car..

Here is a great picture that Falken tire did last month!

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/jcgrestoration/10604420_10152807050570804_6322412946765358103_o_z ps68f7680f.jpg (http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/jcgrestoration/media/10604420_10152807050570804_6322412946765358103_o_z ps68f7680f.jpg.html)


I finally shipped the car home to Karl for Christmas.. I had a hard time letting the car go because it was such a great car to drive around town.. My daughter luved me picking her up from school with it.. car had 4500 miles on it!
Karl knew that I was going a hard time shipping it out .. so he did not want to send out the trailer empty back to CA.. My new toy for 2015.. 1971 Trans Am!

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/jcgrestoration/20141221_100721_zpsc46d4d9c.jpg (http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/jcgrestoration/media/20141221_100721_zpsc46d4d9c.jpg.html)

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/jcgrestoration/20141221_100706_zps12641825.jpg (http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/jcgrestoration/media/20141221_100706_zps12641825.jpg.html)



AMAZING!!! This car is just perfect! I joined this forum just for this thread (a member of forabodiesonly turned me on to it.

I am currently in the process of putting an LS in my 1970 Dodge Dart. You're Challenger is just beautiful... I have a site for all LS swapped cars including mine www.builttobedriven.com

would you mind if I featured your ride once I get the section going?

:king:
:king:
:king:

[89 RS]

[QUOTE=Cris@JCG;588097]Thank you for the compliments on the 70 Challenger! This car has been an absolute blast to not only race it but the privlidge of building ... I am glad that we will not only be the only ones with an LS Mopar.. We got notified a few weeks ago that we have a feature story in Hot Rod Magazine.. Great honor to get some ink in that magazine.. we have no problems with you doing a feature on the car..

Here is a great picture that Falken tire did last month!

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/jcgrestoration/10604420_10152807050570804_6322412946765358103_o_z ps68f7680f.jpg (http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/jcgrestoration/media/10604420_10152807050570804_6322412946765358103_o_z ps68f7680f.jpg.html)


Killer pic! The Challenger is one wicked machine!

Cris, I tried searching, but I couldn't find anything about the Corvette in your avatar. Is the Corvette a current build? I love the looks of it in the avatar.

[Lenie]

Great pic Cris!

[Kcrain]

Seen the write up in the new issues of hot rod looked at the picture than had to run out for work. Looks like a nice write up will read when I get home. Keith

[hp2]

So last Saturday (July 26th) took the Challenger out for some testing with the new intake to Streets of Willow & hurt the engine.. I thought I was done & was not going to make the event with USCA in Portland but Karl let me borrow a back up motor for the event.. bone stock LS3 crate engine with a cam..

I hadn't followed this build since way back when all the driveline was sold off up until now when it popped up in Hot Rod's recent issue. I had missed the post above in the meantime.

So are two custom built and one stock with a cam LSs still cheaper and easier than a well built 3G Hemi?

Last I checked an Indy Cylinder Head 426cid 3G Hemi with 720 hp is $18,500. An Arrington 440cid 3G Hemi making 630hp is $16,950. I think those are right there in the hunt price and power wise with some of those Mast offerings.

[jlwdvm]

Which Borla's did you use? Sounds Awesome!
Finally found some time to get some work done on the Challenger.. Next week we get the trunk & hood mounted.. & the driving begins to proof all the prototype suspension we have developed.. So far all is looking good!

tiRRNm7zYpQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UUNj3x4Eo0wdD5rmJIaJfM3Q

[Cris@JCG]

We got 4 cars we run.. We can swap motors or keep one spare & keep us racing.. As long as we own the Challenger.. It will be powered by an LS..:thumbsup:

I hadn't followed this build since way back when all the driveline was sold off up until now when it popped up in Hot Rod's recent issue. I had missed the post above in the meantime.

So are two custom built and one stock with a cam LSs still cheaper and easier than a well built 3G Hemi?

Last I checked an Indy Cylinder Head 426cid 3G Hemi with 720 hp is $18,500. An Arrington 440cid 3G Hemi making 630hp is $16,950. I think those are right there in the hunt price and power wise with some of those Mast offerings.

Custom built muffers they do for me..

Which Borla's did you use? Sounds Awesome!

[Cris@JCG]

ANother action shot on the road course!

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/jcgrestoration/Screenshot_2015-01-08-07-42-48-1_zps3240158a.png (http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/jcgrestoration/media/Screenshot_2015-01-08-07-42-48-1_zps3240158a.png.html)

[GRob]

Chris, what size wheels are you using on this car?

Oh and it needs a Hellcat under the hood. :brix:

[DavidBoren]

Hellcat under the hood? No, mister, no...

Why replace a 700hp naturally aspirated engine with a 700hp blower motor? Oh, and why replace a motor that interchanges with the other cars to one that doesn't? And why put a Mopar engine in it at all? Then it wouldn't irritate all the Mopar snobs, and that's one of the best parts of this build... right up there with the awesome fabrication, amazing test pilot cast, and the obvious craftsmanship behind the parts/assembly of a car that can be beat on at the track.

Great car, read the whole build, love it. I wouldn't think twice cutting up an all original anything, give me Carroll Shelby's very own winningest ever AC Cobra, and I will chop it up and stick a GM 'vette suspension in it with a import 2jz engine, just to piss everyone off.

Purists and traditionalists piss me off. If the all original car was worth keeping original, maybe it could have done what the customer wanted without needing to go to a custom shop for a custom build. If the 440+6 was so damn awesome, it wouldn't have needed replaced with an LS motor to achieve what the customer wanted. Same with all the original suspension. Ever think that the customer bought the all original 440+6 because it was a badass car, and then exceeded the abilities of that design and wanted more? Who are any of you to question what someone else wants to spend their money on or do with their own property? Buying something all original just means you have more to change, factory cars aren't built to perform at the level we want them to. Original equipment does us absolutely no good, none. Especially 1970 original equipment.

Tear it out, cut it up, stuff whatever works in, beat the hell out of it, drive it, enjoy it. Leave tradition in the museum.

[57hemicuda]

Cutting up a 6 Pack car is stupid, I really don't know what kind of mental instability Karl and Chris have, they just need to stay away from me so I don't catch it!! It's like herpes.

[DavidBoren]

Why is it stupid? I don't understand that. It wasn't an all original car! Hell, none of them are these days, if you want to get technical... which all you purists seem to be all about being as technical as possible. Did you ever change a spark plug, a bulb, a filter, the air in tires or the oil in the engine? Then it's not original any more... get over it!

This all-so-precious, cream of the crop, 6-pack car didn't live up to its owner's expectations as it was... end of story. It wasn't F'ing good enough as it was in its close to original state.

What was he supposed to do, huh? Sell the Challenger he already had in his possession, buy a different Challenger, in worse condition, that will take longer and cost more to build, just to not piss in some Mopar fanatic's cheerios? Get real. Buy a nice car, in good condition, so it can be built how you want it quicker, and drive the piss out of it. He bought the car to drive, not collect, and it wasn't going to drive how he wants to drive it in its Mopar V-code Hemi 6-pack version, so he changed it. It's his car to change. Why does anyone think that they have the right to judge him or anyone else?

If hobbyists and gear heads didn't tinker, swap, and change what the factory put out, then we wouldn't have had any of these muscle cars. Changing what the factory makes is what we do. And it makes the industry better. If the V-code, Hemi 6-pack was never changed by shadetree mechanics, then Dodge never would have evolved to the point of making the Hellcat, because everyone was satisfied with the V-code. Change needs to happen. Welcome to evolution and progress.

[57hemicuda]

Just stupid, Karl and Cris should be publicly flogged. They know why!!!

[dontlifttoshift]

Cutting up a 6 Pack car is stupid, I really don't what kind of mental instability Karl and Chris have, they just need to stay away from me so I don't catch it!! It's like herpes.

Now this thread has herpes, nice going.:D

[57hemicuda]

I'm scratching already

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Now this thread has herpes, nice going.:D

HAAAA HAAAA just don't ask him how his knee surgery went.

Speaking of surgery someone needs a corncobendictome. :sarcasm_smiley:

[GregWeld]

Why is it stupid? I don't understand that. It wasn't an all original car! Hell, none of them are these days, if you want to get technical... which all you purists seem to be all about being as technical as possible. Did you ever change a spark plug, a bulb, a filter, the air in tires or the oil in the engine? Then it's not original any more... get over it!

This all-so-precious, cream of the crop, 6-pack car didn't live up to its owner's expectations as it was... end of story. It wasn't F'ing good enough as it was in its close to original state.

What was he supposed to do, huh? Sell the Challenger he already had in his possession, buy a different Challenger, in worse condition, that will take longer and cost more to build, just to not piss in some Mopar fanatic's cheerios? Get real. Buy a nice car, in good condition, so it can be built how you want it quicker, and drive the piss out of it. He bought the car to drive, not collect, and it wasn't going to drive how he wants to drive it in its Mopar V-code Hemi 6-pack version, so he changed it. It's his car to change. Why does anyone think that they have the right to judge him or anyone else?

If hobbyists and gear heads didn't tinker, swap, and change what the factory put out, then we wouldn't have had any of these muscle cars. Changing what the factory makes is what we do. And it makes the industry better. If the V-code, Hemi 6-pack was never changed by shadetree mechanics, then Dodge never would have evolved to the point of making the Hellcat, because everyone was satisfied with the V-code. Change needs to happen. Welcome to evolution and progress.



Until you know the players around here -- you should maybe just read.... Many of us are long time friends and understand when someone is giving someone else a load of crap.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Until you know the players around here -- you should maybe just read.... Many of us are long time friends and understand when someone is giving someone else a load of crap.

especially with that guy.....preacher meet choir

but i WAS serious......don't ask him about his knee surgery.

[GregWeld]

Hellcat under the hood? No, mister, no...

Why replace a 700hp naturally aspirated engine with a 700hp blower motor? Oh, and why replace a motor that interchanges with the other cars to one that doesn't? And why put a Mopar engine in it at all? Then it wouldn't irritate all the Mopar snobs, and that's one of the best parts of this build... right up there with the awesome fabrication, amazing test pilot cast, and the obvious craftsmanship behind the parts/assembly of a car that can be beat on at the track.

Great car, read the whole build, love it. I wouldn't think twice cutting up an all original anything, give me Carroll Shelby's very own winningest ever AC Cobra, and I will chop it up and stick a GM 'vette suspension in it with a import 2jz engine, just to piss everyone off.

Purists and traditionalists piss me off. If the all original car was worth keeping original, maybe it could have done what the customer wanted without needing to go to a custom shop for a custom build. If the 440+6 was so damn awesome, it wouldn't have needed replaced with an LS motor to achieve what the customer wanted. Same with all the original suspension. Ever think that the customer bought the all original 440+6 because it was a badass car, and then exceeded the abilities of that design and wanted more? Who are any of you to question what someone else wants to spend their money on or do with their own property? Buying something all original just means you have more to change, factory cars aren't built to perform at the level we want them to. Original equipment does us absolutely no good, none. Especially 1970 original equipment.

Tear it out, cut it up, stuff whatever works in, beat the hell out of it, drive it, enjoy it. Leave tradition in the museum.



Give you an inside tip --- at the top right of the posters "box" when they respond, there's a Joined/been a member since, date.... '57Hemicudas is 2005... Mine is 2005... Vince is 2004.

Some of us have been to members weddings... stayed at their houses... have taken cross country road trips together... flown to other states to go to races together... been to SEMA and our Lat G parties for years... helped each other build cars... raced against each other... etc. You've been a member since 2014... that's about 10 years SHORT of what some of us have been around here. Try not to read/react with what YOU think someone should have said. Many of us on here can't hardly have a polite conversation without slipping in our own sarcasm or dig or whatever. Pay a little more attention to the members start date and think to yourself -- Hmmmmmmm maybe they actually know each other after being on here for years and years.

[intocarss]

Give you an inside tip --- at the top right of the posters "box" when they respond, there's a Joined/been a member since, date.... '57Hemicudas is 2005... Mine is 2005... Vince is 2004.

Some of us have been to members weddings... stayed at their houses... have taken cross country road trips together... flown to other states to go to races together... been to SEMA and our Lat G parties for years... helped each other build cars... raced against each other... etc. You've been a member since 2014... that's about 10 years SHORT of what some of us have been around here. Try not to read/react with what YOU think someone should have said. Many of us on here can't hardly have a polite conversation without slipping in our own sarcasm or dig or whatever. Pay a little more attention to the members start date and think to yourself -- Hmmmmmmm maybe they actually know each other after being on here for years and years. That made me feel all warm and fuzzy

[GregWeld]

That made me feel all warm and fuzzy




Speaking of racing together..... Hmmmmmmm

[GRob]

Hellcat under the hood? No, mister, no...

Why replace a 700hp naturally aspirated engine with a 700hp blower motor?

Well the comment was partly in jest. The real purpose of the post was to figure out what wheel diameters the car is running, but since you asked . . .

The car doesn't have a 700hp engine in it at all. It has a crate GM 525 which arguably may or may not produce 525hp. There's some discussion about that on some other boards. The reason it has that motor is because they blew the original.

The Hellcat makes well over 707hp at the crank, and does so with incredible reliability, something that can't necessarily be said of a 700hp ls7. The Hellcat comes with a full factory warranty and you won't find any warranty on a 700hp ls7 so that should tell you something right there about reliability. This also assumes you can cool the motor and the intercooler properly so it doesn't heat soak at the track - not a trivial task.

Also in terms of power and torque, it's all about area under the curve, something which an sc motor excels at. So quite frankly, the hellcat would be a very good choice for a car like this.

But like I said my comment was mostly in jest as there is no hellcat crate motor currently, and given the fact they can't build them fast enough to put into Challengers and Chargers, it'll be quite a while until there is one.

[Rick D]

Give you an inside tip --- at the top right of the posters "box" when they respond, there's a Joined/been a member since, date.... '57Hemicudas is 2005... Mine is 2005... Vince is 2004.

Some of us have been to members weddings... stayed at their houses... have taken cross country road trips together... flown to other states to go to races together... been to SEMA and our Lat G parties for years... helped each other build cars... raced against each other... etc. You've been a member since 2014... that's about 10 years SHORT of what some of us have been around here. Try not to read/react with what YOU think someone should have said. Many of us on here can't hardly have a polite conversation without slipping in our own sarcasm or dig or whatever. Pay a little more attention to the members start date and think to yourself -- Hmmmmmmm maybe they actually know each other after being on here for years and years.

Wow Greg now I feel like an old man for being on here so long! And yes warm and fuzzy 😎😎

[intocarss]

Speaking of racing together..... Hmmmmmmm

Just waiting on BMF to get done... Then it's GAME ON ;)

[GregWeld]

Wow Greg now I feel like an old man for being on here so long! And yes warm and fuzzy 😎😎




Well -- normally I just let stuff slide... but sometimes a guys post just pisses me off. I love Lat G because we don't have many guys that come on and try to flame people etc. But Boren came in there and puts his nickels worth of opinion when he didn't know the players or the background etc. So I had to say something. LOL




Just waiting on BMF to get done... Then it's GAME ON ;)




I'll have been retired for about 30 years by then - and probably too old to drive the rig....




:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Vegas69]

Just waiting on BMF to get done... Then it's GAME ON ;)

So, Never. :y0!: :relax: :D

[intocarss]

I'll have been retired for about 30 years by then - and probably too old to drive the rig....




:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D No worries GW 1..Hire a driver for the rig. 2.. Sutton will make your Mustang wheelchair accessible

[DavidBoren]

Well, I guess that makes me the @sshole.

I didn't mean that (those) rant(s) at anyone in particular. More just an overly voiced rebuttal to the concept of not cutting up an original car.

I know a lot of you have forgotten more than I will ever learn. And I fully understand that a lot of you know each other, and have for some time. I never back down from a good argument, and debating the merits of modifying a car most would be content to just collect was a conversation I felt the need to join.

I apologize for coming off as the loudmouth new guy.

[GregWeld]

Well, I guess that makes me the @sshole.

I didn't mean that (those) rant(s) at anyone in particular. More just an overly voiced rebuttal to the concept of not cutting up an original car.

I know a lot of you have forgotten more than I will ever learn. And I fully understand that a lot of you know each other, and have for some time. I never back down from a good argument, and debating the merits of modifying a car most would be content to just collect was a conversation I felt the need to join.

I apologize for coming off as the loudmouth new guy.



It's okay --- and good for you for coming back in and noting the situation. Now we're all friends and we can start over. LOL

Being the new guy is difficult... it's hard to come in and show your stuff and join in a discussion etc. I get it. But doing so with a strong opinion on a subject isn't probably the best way to gain traction. I've seen threads where there's just two guys arguing and quipping their opinion... (not on here) and then the new guy never posts again. I think all of us on here would far prefer to gain good solid "guys" that stick around and enjoy and help and gain friends. So welcome! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[dontlifttoshift]

David, bring that factory 5 build over here.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Thats the thing David, There is absolutely no reason to argue of fight about it. Everyone has an opinion and we should all be open to them without animosity.

At least you know who the school yard bully is now. :thumbsup: :goggles:

[57hemicuda]

Totally cool David, but its still stupid Cris

[DavidBoren]

I find that I can be very abrasive when you don't know me. I believe Tom Cruise's character in Tropic Thunder says it best... I need to take a big step back and literally f!ck my own face!

I don't mean to come across as a bully, that is not my intent, at all. I have this condition where I say things before I think about it. Sometimes I come off as a real @sshole. Sometimes I explain things to people, even if they already know it, or I explain things to people as if they know nothing about what I am talking about so I explain EVERYTHING, and people say I make them feel stupid, so I can even come off as a d!ck when I'm legitimately trying to help someone.

Sorry for the diatribe, the Challenger is awesome.

[Al Moreno]

I find that I can be very abrasive when you don't know me. I believe Tom Cruise's character in Tropic Thunder says it best... I need to take a big step back and literally f!ck my own face!

I don't mean to come across as a bully, that is not my intent, at all. I have this condition where I say things before I think about it. Sometimes I come off as a real @sshole. Sometimes I explain things to people, even if they already know it, or I explain things to people as if they know nothing about what I am talking about so I explain EVERYTHING, and people say I make them feel stupid, so I can even come off as a d!ck when I'm legitimately trying to help someone.

Sorry for the diatribe, the Challenger is awesome.

Hey Dave its all good, probably the best thing about this forum is what Greg said, we are all a group of guys that support each other while having fun doing it.

[Flash68]

I find that I can be very abrasive when you don't know me. I believe Tom Cruise's character in Tropic Thunder says it best... I need to take a big step back and literally f!ck my own face!

I don't mean to come across as a bully, that is not my intent, at all. I have this condition where I say things before I think about it. Sometimes I come off as a real @sshole. Sometimes I explain things to people, even if they already know it, or I explain things to people as if they know nothing about what I am talking about so I explain EVERYTHING, and people say I make them feel stupid, so I can even come off as a d!ck when I'm legitimately trying to help someone.

Sorry for the diatribe, the Challenger is awesome.

Glad to have you here David.

Now start a thread on the Factory 5 Donny mentioned.... then the assault can really begin.

:cheers:

[tom091074]

Give you an inside tip --- at the top right of the posters "box" when they respond, there's a Joined/been a member since, date.... '57Hemicudas is 2005... Mine is 2005... Vince is 2004.

Some of us have been to members weddings... stayed at their houses... have taken cross country road trips together... flown to other states to go to races together... been to SEMA and our Lat G parties for years... helped each other build cars... raced against each other... etc. You've been a member since 2014... that's about 10 years SHORT of what some of us have been around here. Try not to read/react with what YOU think someone should have said. Many of us on here can't hardly have a polite conversation without slipping in our own sarcasm or dig or whatever. Pay a little more attention to the members start date and think to yourself -- Hmmmmmmm maybe they actually know each other after being on here for years and years.

OK two things where's the parties and who's flying out to help with my build? lol

[57hemicuda]

The parties and help are by invitation only, and apparently you weren't invited.LOL

[GregWeld]

OK two things where's the parties and who's flying out to help with my build? lol



Lat G party happens during SEMA -- and has been held at Margaritaville.... usually around 150 of us. Good times. There's a thread on it with pictures here somewhere -- most with lots of single fingers flying. LOL


After reading all of these threads daily for 10 years -- you'd be so amazed at the community and how many fantastic friendships have been formed here. We have a great community.

[dhutton]

OK two things where's the parties and who's flying out to help with my build? lol

Only 8 years and 62 posts. You are not even close to becoming a A-lister... :poke:

Don

[GregWeld]

Only 8 years and 62 posts. You are not even close to becoming a A-lister... :poke:

Don



Is that my daily average?? LOL.....

[57hemicuda]

I can't think of a better place for a bunch of middle aged car guys to totally abuse each other. The cars are cool too.

[tom091074]

I don't post much because I don't know much. So I don't want to sound like the dumb guy. I read every post one every thread I'm interested in and only comment on thing I have knowledge on, which by my amount of post isn't much. But I have learn a ton from all you guys on here and love Lat-g! Hopefully one day I might be fortunate enough to make it to SEMA and get invited to one of the Lat-g parties, if my wife and 6 kids let me out of the house and off work long enough.

[57hemicuda]

None of the rest of us know anything either, we like to pretend though. You are definitely invited to any party/event you can make it to, its always a great time with great people(except Greg).

[Cris@JCG]

The car is set up to run two different configerations..

19x12 345-30-19 & 19x11 305-30-19

Currently running

18x12 315-30-18 & 18x11 315-30-18

No Hellcat for this car!! Coming back to CA next month to put some big power behind it..

Chris, what size wheels are you using on this car?

Oh and it needs a Hellcat under the hood. :brix:

Thank you for texting me & letting me know that you were stiring the pot!

Cutting up a 6 Pack car is stupid, I really don't know what kind of mental instability Karl and Chris have, they just need to stay away from me so I don't catch it!! It's like herpes.

David- Believe me when I state this.. We get alot of crap for what we did to this Mopar.. but in the end we still stand behind what we did to this car.. The most controversal car I have built to date & wouldn't change a thing!!

Why is it stupid? I don't understand that. It wasn't an all original car! Hell, none of them are these days, if you want to get technical... which all you purists seem to be all about being as technical as possible. Did you ever change a spark plug, a bulb, a filter, the air in tires or the oil in the engine? Then it's not original any more... get over it!

This all-so-precious, cream of the crop, 6-pack car didn't live up to its owner's expectations as it was... end of story. It wasn't F'ing good enough as it was in its close to original state.

What was he supposed to do, huh? Sell the Challenger he already had in his possession, buy a different Challenger, in worse condition, that will take longer and cost more to build, just to not piss in some Mopar fanatic's cheerios? Get real. Buy a nice car, in good condition, so it can be built how you want it quicker, and drive the piss out of it. He bought the car to drive, not collect, and it wasn't going to drive how he wants to drive it in its Mopar V-code Hemi 6-pack version, so he changed it. It's his car to change. Why does anyone think that they have the right to judge him or anyone else?

If hobbyists and gear heads didn't tinker, swap, and change what the factory put out, then we wouldn't have had any of these muscle cars. Changing what the factory makes is what we do. And it makes the industry better. If the V-code, Hemi 6-pack was never changed by shadetree mechanics, then Dodge never would have evolved to the point of making the Hellcat, because everyone was satisfied with the V-code. Change needs to happen. Welcome to evolution and progress.

[DavidBoren]

David- Believe me when I state this.. We get alot of crap for what we did to this Mopar.. but in the end we still stand behind what we did to this car.. The most controversal car I have built to date & wouldn't change a thing!!

Good to hear. Keep up the good work.

[MoparCar]

Cris,
Do you have the e-body front clip available for production? In other words is it an available product for you to produce without a customers car in possession-existing JIG and files to cut it? Awesome car.

Thanks, Wes

[Cris@JCG]

Sorry Wes.. I have no plans on doing anything for production to just sell outside of the shop on suspension.. Just note that I grafted a Camaro sub-frame into the car which there are other companies out there that make a great Camaro sub that you can tackle yourself..

Cris,
Do you have the e-body front clip available for production? In other words is it an available product for you to produce without a customers car in possession-existing JIG and files to cut it? Awesome car.

Thanks, Wes

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Cris,
Do you have the e-body front clip available for production? In other words is it an available product for you to produce without a customers car in possession-existing JIG and files to cut it? Awesome car.

Thanks, Wes

http://www.detroitspeed.com/X-Gen-Products/X-gen-front-suspension-pg-1.html

[MoparCar]

Sorry Wes.. I have no plans on doing anything for production to just sell outside of the shop on suspension.. Just note that I grafted a Camaro sub-frame into the car which there are other companies out there that make a great Camaro sub that you can tackle yourself..

Cris,
Thanks. Just checking to see what your plans and goals were
Wes

[GRob]

The car is set up to run two different configerations..

19x12 345-30-19 & 19x11 305-30-19

Currently running

18x12 315-30-18 & 18x11 315-30-18

No Hellcat for this car!! Coming back to CA next month to put some big power behind it..



Thanks Chris, much appreciated!

[SBDave]

Cris,

Do you have any photos of how you mounted the drivers seat? I assume custom mounts going to the subframe connectors you put in, but if you used any "off the shelf parts" I'd like to know what.

Love when I see this car pop up online or IG

Thanks!
Dave