View Full Version : TT big block pros and cons lets here it!
Well guys it looks like the TT engine is going to happen. So lets here the pros and cons.
Greg from Aus
05-01-2013, 06:28 AM
Pro: power and plenty of it
Con: weight, heat soak, cost, packaging.
Greg
Ketzer
05-01-2013, 06:32 AM
If it is what you want and you are this excited about it... there are no cons.
Jeff-
Vegas69
05-01-2013, 07:16 AM
Pros: It's what you want, aesthetics, power.
Cons: Weigh more than a sherman tank, nearly impossible to cool in some circumstances, handling, modulation for traction control, maintenance, reliability, packaging, cost.
64duece
05-02-2013, 05:59 PM
I've done quite a few...there are never a lack of smiles!
The weight isn't the best option for a true corner carver. Large cube LSx would be more ideal if this is a concern. It'll still handle with the right springs and sway bar...just be a a few % heavier on the nose.
If you have e85 available, you can run without an air to air intercooler which will be your biggest concern to cool the car. Next option would be pump gas/water meth setup. Either will make much more power than the street can handle. If you feel an air to air is required, the air ducting and fans play a crucial role in cooling the car with a large restriction up front.
I have a 572" BBC w/ twin PT76GTS in my 55 Chevy. It'll run 150mph on 15lbs of boost (e85/watermeth) in the 1/4 mile. It's a beast at 4000+lbs but the 4L80e and extras really play a large part aswell. Scares the crap outta anyone that rides beside me!
fleetus macmullitz
05-02-2013, 06:06 PM
Mario,
As a friend of mine used to say...
"Temporary inconvenience for permanent (in this case Perm-a-grin) improvement."
BTW-are you going to use an aluminum block?
I've done quite a few...there are never a lack of smiles!
The weight isn't the best option for a true corner carver. Large cube LSx would be more ideal if this is a concern. It'll still handle with the right springs and sway bar...just be a a few % heavier on the nose.
If you have e85 available, you can run without an air to air intercooler which will be your biggest concern to cool the car. Next option would be pump gas/water meth setup. Either will make much more power than the street can handle. If you feel an air to air is required, the air ducting and fans play a crucial role in cooling the car with a large restriction up front.
I have a 572" BBC w/ twin PT76GTS in my 55 Chevy. It'll run 150mph on 15lbs of boost (e85/watermeth) in the 1/4 mile. It's a beast at 4000+lbs but the 4L80e and extras really play a large part aswell. Scares the crap outta anyone that rides beside me!
Thanx Dennis ! I will bring this up to Steve.
Mario,
As a friend of mine used to say...
"Temporary inconvenience for permanent (in this case Perm-a-grin) improvement."
BTW-are you going to use an aluminum block?
No aluminum block Skip . Steve wants to use my 572 .:D
Sparks67
05-02-2013, 09:33 PM
The weight isn't the best option for a true corner carver. Large cube LSx would be more ideal if this is a concern. It'll still handle with the right springs and sway bar...just be a a few % heavier on the nose.
Well, I got to hear this twin turbo LSX engine run in Brian Thomson's Street legal 96 Impala. With over 2,000 on tap. I am not sure why people want a big block.
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/shortblock/sucp_0909_twin_turbo_lsx_engine/viewall.html
Jeff
My buddy made 950rwhp with a stock LS3 block, $100 LS crankshaft, $600 compstar rods, and off the shelf Diamond pistons. He runs budget $1400 SDPC ported LS3 heads and stock LS3 intake. $400 cam, $500 morel lifters, stock rocker arms. He runs a GTS76 single turbo and $400 Treadstone intercooler. e85 fuel
Engine weight is around 425lbs without turbo.
You will save hundreds of pounds off the front end with LS power. His engine revs to 7800rpm when needed. 7K normally :D
He runs a $1100 Mcleod RXT twin disc clutch that has the pedal pressure of a Honda.
No need for TTBigBlock unless its a drag car. You can into plenty of trouble or out of it... running a turbo LS setup.
A stock 6.0 LS shortblock, stock ls3 heads/intake, medium size cam, single s480 turbo recently went 8.65@157mph in a Mustang running a TH400. Imagine what a built up one can do.
I'm hoping to run some 9's with my '69 Chevelle project and if not... I'll put on a bigger turbo.
NOPANTS68
05-03-2013, 02:33 PM
Pros- it's not an LS
Cons- it's not an LS
It's def the package I'd go for given that budget. Sure the LS is lighter, smaller, better tech, and apparently made by god- but who cares. Build what you want. If you set the car up right, nothing will catch it from a roll anyway. Hard to argue your car handles better when a guy just put 10 bus lengths on you. lmao
Pros- it's not an LS
Cons- it's not an LS
It's def the package I'd go for given that budget. Sure the LS is lighter, smaller, better tech, and apparently made by god- but who cares. Build what you want. If you set the car up right, nothing will catch it from a roll anyway. Hard to argue your car handles better when a guy just put 10 bus lengths on you. lmao
I couldn't of said it better myself thats some funny sh^t !!:lmao: :cheers:
dontlifttoshift
05-03-2013, 10:30 PM
I haven't been all the way through the build thread so I am unsure of your goals. I realize you have assembled some very good parts for your car.
I will ask the hard question...Are you going to drive this car? Define drive and intended usuage in your own words.
I haven't been all the way through the build thread so I am unsure of your goals. I realize you have assembled some very good parts for your car.
I will ask the hard question...Are you going to drive this car? Define drive and intended usuage in your own words.
Donny I have several things on my bucket list for this car. I'm going to drive it as much as I can. I'm really not a show guy but I'll go every once and a while. I would like to try some auto cross, road course , 1/4. I'm not building this car to sit that's for sure. I also am very aware that this IS NOT the proper way to go for some of these events. I just want to go have fun. We have a facility called the AUTOBAHN with two huge road courses . I have several friends that belong to the club and I'll be looking into that also. The best thing about that its only 20 miles from my house. I'm catching a lot of heat for the BB TT deal but I just have to get it out of my system. Sometimes you do things even though you don't need it just so you can say you done it. My nephew(who loves to help me spend my money) took my brand new zero mile Arctic Cat Z1 turbo snowmobile that comes out of the box with 190 hp witch is plenty of power for a snowmobile! Now god knows what he did to this thing but $6000.00 later it now has close to 400 hp ! WHY???? I think if we had to justify everything we do in this life we would never do anything! I know the LS route is the way to go and I know this will happen in the future. But for now I have to get this out of my system. :D
Ron in SoCal
05-04-2013, 08:09 AM
Save yourself 90#s Mario :D
http://www.dartheads.com/products/engine-blocks/chevy-big-blocks/big-m-aluminum-engine-blocks.html
Just do it. You know you want to...:clap:
Ketzer
05-04-2013, 08:44 AM
I think if we had to justify everything we do in this life we would never do anything! I know the LS route is the way to go and I know this will happen in the future. But for now I have to get this out of my system. :D
Really Sucks that you think you have to justify your choices on how you build YOUR car. How you spend YOUR money.
Jeff-
Vegas69
05-04-2013, 10:13 AM
That was a good question Donny.
One thing that should be considered is that you have no idea what you will prefer to do with the car until it's done. If you are looking for justification of your ideals, I'm the wrong guy. :D I'd rather tell you my honest opinion since I have the experience.
If you just want to show up to a road course/autocross and have a good time and aren't serious about competing and honing your skills, I think it's ok. It will be a short duration car. I just don't see you cooling efficiently enough to make many laps. I also think it will prove difficult to drive in any handling segment. Specifically due to the massive amount of power and the unpredictability of turbos. Racing is a delicate dance of being right at the edge and that means feel is crucial. Having all that weight is going to make it push worse than most. I'd shoot for a 295-315 with the proper rim size. With a DSE sub that means adding the wheel width to the outside of the rim to prevent control arm/frame rub. That will require fender mods.
You have to remember that you are not GM, you don't have millions for R&D. You need to error on the side of caution if you want a predictable and reliable car. Having that much power will be a handicap for pro touring.
A mild supercharger would be a better option due to less heat. They just aren't as pretty and I get that. If I was going to spend that type of coin, I'd have Stielows engine builder build you an LS9. It would be all the power you will ever need and it's been done.
Matt@BOS
05-04-2013, 12:09 PM
I think it comes down to the personality of the owner. It is hard to ask someone how serious they are about autocross, road course, 1/4 mile or standing mile, because everyone everyone has a different definition of serious, or what is involved in having fun. For Todd and I, having fun is building something that drives well enough to exceed the level of skill of the idiot behind the wheel. After doing this for a few years, I'm not having a ton of fun if I'm trying to fight my car to get it to work. I don't care about winning so much as I do getting the most out of my car with what I have on any given day. I often decide that I want to go faster though. For some people it isn't so much an issue of how well it handles and is more a function of just getting seat time. I wish I was one of those people. It would be much cheaper.
If I were building this car my only concern would be creating a car with so many compromises that I would get frustrated with it when it couldn't function quite the way I wanted it to in one area because of something I did elsewhere. It is hard to tell what is going to bug, and what you can't live without until you're on the road.
Really Sucks that you think you have to justify your choices on how you build YOUR car. How you spend YOUR money.
Nope ! No justifying! Its crazy how things can get out of hand. How do you justify 1500+ HP when 300,400,500 hp is just fine! If you think about its totally ridiculous !! So for me if you would try and justify anything out of the norm you would never do it. Does that make cense to you?
[QUOTE=Vegas69;478476]That was a good question Donny.
One thing that should be considered is that you have no idea what you will prefer to do with the car until it's done. If you are looking for justification of your ideals, I'm the wrong guy. :D I'd rather tell you my honest opinion since I have the experience.
If you just want to show up to a road course/autocross and have a good time and aren't serious about competing and honing your skills, I think it's ok. It will be a short duration car. I just don't see you cooling efficiently enough to make many laps. I also think it will prove difficult to drive in any handling segment. Specifically due to the massive amount of power and the unpredictability of turbos. Racing is a delicate dance of being right at the edge and that means feel is crucial. Having all that weight is going to make it push worse than most. I'd shoot for a 295-315 with the proper rim size. With a DSE sub that means adding the wheel width to the outside of the rim to prevent control arm/frame rub. That will require fender mods.
You have to remember that you are not GM, you don't have millions for R&D. You need to error on the side of caution if you want a predictable and reliable car. Having that much power will be a handicap for pro touring.
A mild supercharger would be a better option due to less heat. They just aren't as pretty and I get that. If I was going to spend that type of coin, I'd have Stielows engine builder build you an LS9. It would be all the power you will ever need and it's been done.
Can someone in the Las Vegas area get to Todd as fast as you can I think something or someone hit him in the head!! The guys talking LS, something happen to my bro and I'm concerned !!!!:D
greg5436
05-04-2013, 12:59 PM
I built an all alum.BBC TT 69 chevelle conv.used the Tom Nelson alien intake with 76 mm turbonetics turbos.spent 3000 on high temp coatings from the pistons to the turbos to all the down pipes.started driving the car last year and all the heat issues started coming out.car would not start after getting real hot. Steering joint got so hot the started freezing up will I was driving.fix for that was to make some boots and pack with grease. Even though I spent all that money on coatings I had to double wrap all the down pipes to fix the starting problems.it made 850 hp at8 lbs of boost.so lots of room to make a ton of HP.car drives around fine but I don't think it's no long distance car.
Just finished 69 camaro with a kenne bell supercharger ls3 .chassis dynoed it yesterday made over 700 rwhp with a loose converter at 15 lbs. Of boost.put a tighter one in this morning.this blower makes some heat but nothing like the turbo car. This car seems like you could drive it anywhere.
This is what my experience is so far with turbos and superchargers.. Greg
fleetus macmullitz
05-04-2013, 03:47 PM
Mario,
I'm interested in what the engine builder (Steve Morris) says about the heat issues.
69znc
05-04-2013, 06:35 PM
Mario
I finished my second version of my car about 3 months ago. I did it because like you I wanted to. I built it for a bit of everything. Power (NRE), handling all DSE, custom interior for high end show quality, and huge attention to detail on all the wiring and hoses, stopping with electronic power assisted Baer brakes (good idea with no vacuum control in BB, mine are always strong and consistent) ..... plus great sound and AC.
Pretty much, like your car will be, it was custom done with some great parts from excellent companies.
I do not have TT but I have talked with Tom about it. :-) I have the 632 with about 700 rwhp. I cannot get the temp above 190 even after chasing Kyle around the track at Kershaw at 140 mph for several laps. I have a 1.5 inch tubed AutoRad radiator with double Viper fans.
My car weights 3960 (DSE scale) and it does great on the road course. Balanced at 49/51% with out my big butt in it which makes it near 50/50. When Kyle said he was very impressed I explained it was pure luck! Is there faster, sure, but a lot of that is the driver. I can hold my own as a hobbyist.
Payton King an active member here and a friend drove my car at Charlotte Motor speedway and he was surprised at how well it did.
So I say build what you want. You seem to be like me building a dream car. No specific reason.
I will TT mine one day with NRE so it will go to 2000+hp. Does it make sense, no....can I control all the HP I have now yes but need throttle management. I run 335 rears and can smoke them up to about 50 mph. Do I, no but I still love it!!!
So Mario, logic be damned, build from the heart!!
Cheers
Peter
71RS/SS396
05-05-2013, 05:14 AM
Mario, if you plan on truly using this car frequently on a road course I would stay away from a boosted combination, you simply can't package a large enough intercooler to manage the heat. I bet if you talk to Stielow he will tell you his car has about 3-4 good laps in it before the IAT's rise enough to start effecting the power output.
speedjohnston
05-05-2013, 09:47 AM
Polly motorsports TA is a boosted bbc with a f3 procharger (check out some of his vids). Its built to run distances at speed like Silver State Classic. I can't comment on my own combo as it is not running yet. :(
SuperB70
05-05-2013, 12:51 PM
I builted my first turbo engine 20 years ago. The heat is major problem.
As was told, everything will live shorter life, steering joints will stop working, spark plug wires burn in half. Even with wraped headers and booted wires, I had to live with that the center cap of streering wheel got so hot that you cant touch it just by cruising with it in town. Paint will burn off because of the radiation heat.
Pro's: Anyway,it makes unbelivebul rush of adrenalin.
I'm collecting parts for my chargerd SRT-10 engine build, was doing it with TT but after I did the Charger that is in our wedsite, I was sold to twin screw.
Simpler to install, instant power, way less heat and better power delivery at lower rpm's. The Charger made 735 ft lb at 2000rpm.
There is a way to handel the massive heat load, do it like VW (Bugatti) did with Veyron. The car has 10 different radiators. Another way is to use leafgold to refect the radiation heat a way.
Revved
05-13-2013, 08:55 PM
A mild supercharger would be a better option due to less heat. They just aren't as pretty and I get that. If I was going to spend that type of coin, I'd have Stielows engine builder build you an LS9. It would be all the power you will ever need and it's been done.
If Kurt Urban is still building Stielow's engines I'll second that! He is a Guru when it comes to LS engines. He just knows how to make them dance!
I'm late to the party and just did a quick run through the thread. Great points about building the car to do what you want it to do but it seems like you are still a bit up in the air about what you want to do with the car. Pro-Touring is about building cars that are well rounded, well balanced, can be driven on a (near) daily basis, and beaten the crap out of on the weekends. Just do your research to make sure your money is spent wisely.
I'm been looking into Twin Turbo setups for an upcoming project. For the last several years I've done a lot of Supercharged FE stuff so I'm really interested in real world experience on the driveablity differences with running turbos vs superchargers. My clients to date have all been street drivers so I haven't had anything put under the constant abuse of a road course but I try to build them all like they would be with intercoolers, oversized cooling systems, engine oil cooers, steering coolers, and heat has never really been an issue. This upcoming project is going to be a 65 Mustang Fastback with a current plan to power it with a TT stroker Windsor. With the idea of a moderate engine for decent economy and road manners for regular driving with out having to drag a supercharger all the time, but be able to dip into the boost when he wants to get going.
Last SEMA show I spent quite a while talking to STS turbo about their rear mounted systems. I first ran into one of their customers outside with a late model Challenger that claims to have been running their systems since his car was new. First a small system, then upgraded the engine and the turbo system and was claiming 900ish and says he spends time on the track with it. If I remember correctly I think he was even doing the Optima Battery Challenge for his second or third year. He swore by them and their systems. Then heading inside and talking to the guys at STS they of course swear by their systems as well and claim to have customers doing all sorts of racing with their systems and maintaining excellent drivability. They claim no boost lag even with the turbos in the back and of course that would address the excessive heat under the hood issue. I'd like to know if anyone here has used them.
And to play devils advocate...why not supercharge your BBC? Just finished this one up and went to the dyno a couple days ago. 482ci, Vortech V7, Air to water intercooler, XFI system. Put down 820 to the wheels. Plenty enough to get you in trouble.
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv328/RevvedAC/Wadsworth/DSCN9735_zpsa90fcae7.jpg
Only two questions in this business....
How fast do you want to go?
How much money do you want to spend?
:G-Dub:
Flash68
05-13-2013, 10:03 PM
If Kurt Urban is still building Stielow's engines I'll second that!
Brian Thomson is.
Well it looks like the TT is not going to happen. After really thinking about it and putting the numbers together it just doesn't make sense at this point. The engine cost is one thing but its all the other things you have to do to make this happen that makes you ask yourself if its worth it. I would have to change the rear end to handle the HP (purchased) the radiator to keep this thing cool(purchased) stronger transmission than what I have now I paid good money to have my new T56 upgraded to 1000 hp (purchased). Then its all the extra fab work that has to be done to make this work . I saw what RS had to do to make the hidden headlights work in the 69 they did and that's just the start the list goes on. I'm still sending my engine to Steve Morris to have him go through everything and pump up the hp a little more. Troy has me looking at some other ideas for fuel injection , but I'm still leaning towards the 8 stack. So thanks for the input guys .
Vegas69
05-22-2013, 07:23 AM
Good decision....:thumbsup:
You won't regret it. :thumbsup:
fleetus macmullitz
05-22-2013, 08:12 AM
Well it looks like the TT is not going to happen.
Next time.
:lol:
Ketzer
05-22-2013, 09:49 AM
Still going BBC though, yes?
dontlifttoshift
05-22-2013, 10:40 AM
That's why I asked. You don't have to justify anything to me or anyone else on YOUR car.
600 horsepower (flywheel) is enough to go 1:12.72 on the north course at Autobahn, we proved it a couple of weeks ago. That's not far behind the big dogs and quite honestly much faster than most people can drive, no matter what car.
Flash68
05-22-2013, 12:11 PM
See... this thread worked. :)
Still going BBC though, yes?
Yes for sure!
That's why I asked. You don't have to justify anything to me or anyone else on YOUR car.
600 horsepower (flywheel) is enough to go 112.72 on the north course at Autobahn, we proved it a couple of weeks ago. That's not far behind the big dogs and quite honestly much faster than most people can drive, no matter what car.
I hear ya Don. 112 holy crap! That's awesome!!!!
See... this thread worked. :)
Dave it definitely did help that's for sure!
Flash68
05-22-2013, 12:21 PM
Dave it definitely did help that's for sure!
You are getting what you want and saving some money in the process.
Win win. :thumbsup:
dontlifttoshift
05-22-2013, 01:06 PM
I hear ya Don. 112 holy crap! That's awesome!!!!
Edited my original post, One minute, 12 second lap time.
fleetus macmullitz
05-22-2013, 01:22 PM
Mario,
Do something different, like fake twin turbos. Great look, less filling.
We won't tell.
:secret:
Ketzer
05-22-2013, 03:19 PM
Mario,
Do something different, like fake twin turbos. Great look, less filling.
We won't tell.
:secret:
No. no, a clutched supercharger... that would be waayyy sweeter...
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL267/1824562/21364491/406709206.jpg
Jeff-
Mario,
Do something different, like fake twin turbos. Great look, less filling.
We won't tell.
:secret:
No. no, a clutched supercharger... that would be waayyy sweeter...
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL267/1824562/21364491/406709206.jpg
Jeff-
:getout: :catfight: I have no comment for either one of you!
fleetus macmullitz
05-23-2013, 06:24 AM
:getout: :catfight: I have no comment for either one of you!
I understand.
Sometimes when one receives a great gift (like our suggestions) they become speechless. :thumbsup:
:lol:
ccracin
05-23-2013, 07:24 AM
I've solved you problem Mario. No under hood heat and affordable!
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/Misc/TwinLeafBlowers_zpsfbe2fd31.jpg (http://s140.photobucket.com/user/ccracin/media/Misc/TwinLeafBlowers_zpsfbe2fd31.jpg.html)
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/Misc/LeafCharger_zpsf91c4b7b.jpg (http://s140.photobucket.com/user/ccracin/media/Misc/LeafCharger_zpsf91c4b7b.jpg.html)
When you aren't cruising, you can clean up around the house and shop! :welcome3:
:lolhit: Your killiin me bro!!!!I've solved you problem Mario. No under hood heat and affordable!
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/Misc/TwinLeafBlowers_zpsfbe2fd31.jpg (http://s140.photobucket.com/user/ccracin/media/Misc/TwinLeafBlowers_zpsfbe2fd31.jpg.html)
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/Misc/LeafCharger_zpsf91c4b7b.jpg (http://s140.photobucket.com/user/ccracin/media/Misc/LeafCharger_zpsf91c4b7b.jpg.html)
When you aren't cruising, you can clean up around the house and shop! :welcome3:
GregWeld
05-25-2013, 10:11 AM
That's why I asked. You don't have to justify anything to me or anyone else on YOUR car.
He does to me.... or we ain't talkin' no mo'
:popcorn2: :D
He does to me.... or we ain't talkin' no mo'
:popcorn2: :D
You heard him Donnie!:)
fleetus macmullitz
05-27-2013, 10:35 AM
Mario,
Do you have a timeline on when the motor will be done?
Specs?
Sharing is caring ya know.
Oops, :wrongforum: for that.
Or is it a big ...:secret: ?
Na no secret Skip. I'll be talking to Steve soon I just have a lot going on right now at my shop business hasn't been good for awhile. Have to take care of business first! :hairpullout:
Rick D
05-28-2013, 06:51 PM
Na no secret Skip. I'll be talking to Steve soon I just have a lot going on right now at my shop business hasn't been good for awhile. Have to take care of business first! :hairpullout:
Man you ant kidding, it's slow all over the Chicago area!! I haven't seen it this slow since the mid 90's.
Man you ant kidding, it's slow all over the Chicago area!! I haven't seen it this slow since the mid 90's.
Its not slow Rick its stopped!!!! 20+ Years of doing this and I have never had this long of a run with business being so bad!! 4 months and counting! And no sign of turning around either!! Thank god for my dealers...... I would be in deep dodo if not for them.
Rick D
06-01-2013, 07:12 AM
Its not slow Rick its stopped!!!! 20+ Years of doing this and I have never had this long of a run with business being so bad!! 4 months and counting! And no sign of turning around either!! Thank god for my dealers...... I would be in deep dodo if not for them.
I got one word for it "consolidators". The big MSO's are getting most of the work, the ins company's keep driving everyone to them. The average consumer doesn't know the difference, to them it sounds great! Here Mrs. Jones just go over to ABC body shop drop off your car and they will have a rental car waiting for you there. They will complete the estimate and give you a "GUARANTIED DELIVERY DATE"!!! Now if they miss the date guess what the shop starts to pay for the rental. Just crazy!!!
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