Fast EZ EFI HELP please!

[Judgement]

So I finally have my GTO convertible running but not well! I've built a stroked out Pontiac 400 to 463, engine dyno runs showed the the motor put out 520 hp and 613 tq with a carb. In the car I am running FAST EZ EFI and a 4l80e transmission. Now here is the issue, I have driven the car around for a while enough time for the computer to learn but it's not! If I am driving around the car runs great but when I hammer down on it the car falls on its face!! I'm losing at least 150 to 200 hp some where and I can't find it, can this system be tuned any other way? I NEED HELP PLEASE!!!!

[ccracin]

Sorry to hear you are having problems. However, I think you need to give us quite a bit more info to try and help you figure this out. Some things that come to mind first are your fuel system. The ability for any efi system to perform relies heavily on the fuel system's ability to maintain the correct flow and pressure. So how about some details there? How is timing being handled? Also, more details on the transmission, what converter, what computer, how has it been tuned?

With this info, some folks here may be able to lend a hand.

Just one more question, have you called FAST yet?

[Judgement]

When I purchased the EFI system I bought the complete kit with the fuel system from FAST, the transmission is a pheinox 4l80e compu shift computer with a 2500 stall.

[camcojb]

The kit a friend bought had a carb fuel filter instead of an EFI one; had the solid block phenolic insert in it instead of a screen. Super restrictive and the fuel pressure dropped like a rock under load. Also the pump started getting louder after cruising for a bit.

You might want to check yours, because that was the supplied filter that came with the complete kit directly from FAST.

[Judgement]

I will do that first thing in the am, thank you I never even thought to check as for the pump its still ok

[ccracin]

The Fast supplied pump is an external pump. Have you noticed if you have this problem with a full tank of gas? Sometimes the stock in tank pick-ups will uncover under hard acceleration and starve the pump.

Along with what Jody said, check the whole fuel system from pick-up to injectors. Do you have the pressure set properly? Typically it is 43psi with the vacuum line unhooked from the regulator or the engine off with the power on to the pump. This has to match what's in the controller as your pressure.

One test to do when you are hammering it. On the hand held controller, go to the live data and look at the injector duty cycle. If it goes over 90% while you are on it, you need more fuel pressure.

Just a few things to look at. Good luck.

[Judgement]

Thanks for the tips and clues to look for I will be on it and under it this weekend thanks again

[Revved]

....and...... what did you find? Leaving us hanging here!!

I've had a few issues with the EZ-EFI systems but they have all been on individual throttle body manifolds. These direct runner manifolds have a very narrow MAP signal and you run through the same cells on normal driving as you do on moderate and hard accel so tuning these engines with a programmable system can be tricky. I don't think the EZ-EFI system is that smart and it will randomly tune in glitches. Sometimes they tune back out, sometimes you have to reset the program to get rid of them.

[ALLBOTTLEMONTE]

Had Alot Of Problems With Fast To Missing Parts They Sent The Ecm With No Software Installed In It Wrong Fuel Rails Only 4 Injectors In The Box

[PTAddict]

We've installed two systems using EZ-EFI, one on an Inglese individual runner setup on a ZZ4 crate motor, the other a TBI setup on the owner's ZZ502 crate motor. We never got either to run satisfactorily from our point of view, the Inglese barely acceptable, the ZZ502 virtually undriveable with a flat spot the size of the Grand Canyon. No amount of consultation with FAST seemed to help.

I think both of these could be considered more "edge cases", which may account for why other folks seem to be quite happy with EZ-EFI. Still, at this point I don't trust any of these systems that are "self tune only", with no laptop or other manual override programming available.

[supremeefi]

We've installed two systems using EZ-EFI, one on an Inglese individual runner setup on a ZZ4 crate motor, the other a TBI setup on the owner's ZZ502 crate motor. We never got either to run satisfactorily from our point of view, the Inglese barely acceptable, the ZZ502 virtually undriveable with a flat spot the size of the Grand Canyon. No amount of consultation with FAST seemed to help.

I think both of these could be considered more "edge cases", which may account for why other folks seem to be quite happy with EZ-EFI. Still, at this point I don't trust any of these systems that are "self tune only", with no laptop or other manual override programming available.

X2, thank you.

[Revved]

We've installed two systems using EZ-EFI, one on an Inglese individual runner setup on a ZZ4 crate motor, the other a TBI setup on the owner's ZZ502 crate motor. We never got either to run satisfactorily from our point of view, the Inglese barely acceptable, the ZZ502 virtually undriveable with a flat spot the size of the Grand Canyon. No amount of consultation with FAST seemed to help.

I think both of these could be considered more "edge cases", which may account for why other folks seem to be quite happy with EZ-EFI. Still, at this point I don't trust any of these systems that are "self tune only", with no laptop or other manual override programming available.


I've had that conversation with David Page and Kevin Winstead even though they both agreed that there should be a "Tuner Backdoor" for guys that know what they are doing the Management at FAST has determined that they want the system sealed. I've done 3 EZ EFI systems- one on a common plenum manifold and two on direct runner manifolds. The common plenum engine was a caddy 500ci big block, it tuned out just fine and is a great driver. The other two with direct runner intakes were stroker small block Windsors and they were finicky.

The first one I did was soon after EZ EFI came out and actually cost me future business with the client. The system would develop a flat spot on moderate accel like briskly getting on the highway. FAST didn't have any ideas of what could cause it- I would clear out the program and it would go away for a while then tune itself back in. The client didn't want to wait for me to figure out what was wrong so I shipped him the car and of course it became a big issue.

The second one just develops random stumbles. The owner has just accepted it as part of driving a "race car" on the street but short of replacing the system I don't have any other options.

I've gone back to putting sequential XFI systems on everything. Direct runner intakes are tricky to properly tune unless you have experience with them. I have not yet seen a self-tuning system is smart enough to work out the necessary compromises that make it driveable in the real world.

Mark and I had a conversation about this a couple years back... It is easy for him to bash the FAST systems because he has seen a lot of badly installed and tuned systems... I've seen the same but I've also seen what they can do when they are set up properly. My tank is always half full but I don't think I'll be trying any of the EZ 2.0 systems.

[tazzz2_ca]

I believe we placed a fast EZ system on a Pontiac 455 60 over with Edelbrock heads and a pretty aggressive cam a few years ago (since sold the car)....

The motor/system wanted to stall after aggressive driving and my mechanic was going nuts trying to figure out the problem... In the end he was reading over the manual for the system at lunch one day for the 100th time and went to the chapters in the manual for tuning over 500ci and the specific setting/s in the in the initial setup... He thought well I've tried everything else he could,,, so he just tried tuning for over 500ci in the initial parameters and the motor ran great after that....

BTW I don't know what it is about Pontiac's and fuel injection (as all motors are just air pumps in the end) but every one that I have used fuel injection on has been a major pain in the a$$.... I recently sold/took a 20,000 hit (after the sale price) on a CV-1 headed motor because after two years I was just that pissed off... All the players involved spent more time trying to point to the other and none offered a real solution while the labor bills just kept rolling in to try and make this thing work (never consistently did in two years)...

I had little flashes of the whole thing coming together every once and a while... When it did,, the dam thing just about ripped the tires off the a$$ end of the car and exploded into action... That was constantly followed up by placing my foot into it a mile down the road and the engine laying down.... Personally I'm of the opinion that it'll be a dark day in July before I ever try to run a Pontiac motor in one of my Pro-touring cars again as this last one left me with such a taste in my mouth that I will not soon forget it..... Not the very least to mention the math of a motor built for $25,000 couldn't draw 8,000 in a natural sale and was a challenge to finally sell for 5,000. Pontiac drive lines and Pro-touring = huge hit both in maintenance (as they don't like continuous high RPM) and financial pocket book.....

[usa-69z]

I have a 'self tune' ezi efi fast system on my 383 , heavy solid camshaft etc,, i am running 52mm throttle bodys on a cross ram 8 stack manifold. I have had no problems what so ever with this system.. It runs , starts easy and revs beautifully .. i think i got lucky as ive heard the horror stories.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd202/dragstripper/GREYRIMSCAMARO009.jpg

[supremeefi]

Yes they are finicky. And their fuel curves are unlike anything else.
On the batch fire EZ stuff if you throw enough fuel at it they'll run ok however you're leaving a bunch on the table.

I've done over a half dozen and they're not easy but with the right system you can make them run real well in just a few hours.

The main problem is most systems lack the appropriate transient fueling tables so you have to run them fatter than you normally would. With the difference in uncovered area at different throttle positions it takes multiple tables to get it right. Most systems don't have that, even the XFI 2.0.

When you have the right equipment they work fine. I even nailed the tuning on a couple via email.

[Judgement]

I'm still having all sorts of issues with this system, my pressure is right on the manifold is a rpm that is port matched and polished to Kauffman aluminum heads. It's back in the shop again, I'll try setting it up to over 500 cubic inches. I'm at my whits end if this system doesn't work the way it should I'll pull it and put a carb on it. Pissing me off!!!

[supremeefi]

I'm still having all sorts of issues with this system, my pressure is right on the manifold is a rpm that is port matched and polished to Kauffman aluminum heads. It's back in the shop again, I'll try setting it up to over 500 cubic inches. I'm at my whits end if this system doesn't work the way it should I'll pull it and put a carb on it. Pissing me off!!!

Why don't you just buy an EFI system that works? That way you can use the rest of the hardware you already have.
Then you can sell the crap you have now.

[GregWeld]

I personally own TWO IR 8 stacks both running EZ EFI -- and have installed or worked on helping to set up at least half a dozen others - everything from Brodix headed BBC to SBF's... and every one of them has run flawlessly.

Remember that the EZ EFI ONLY CONTROLS THE FUELING.... nothing else. So while everyone is quick to blame the EFI because it's "new" or it's "self tune" or whatever excuse they can come up with.... every time I've chased someone else's issue -- it's been ANYTHING BUT the EFI.

It's usually some shortcut the installer has taken. Tapping the MAP off the wrong place or a shared source.... or the MSD distributor is installed as it came out of the box (with garage door springs and the wrong stop bushings) so the curve is all wrong.... or the 'Connect straight to the battery' has been ignored. Or the Tach input is wrong and it needs the signal conditioner that is optional... Or some wise guy decides that some sensor isn't really needed... or that he knows more about these systems than the engineers and has the O2 sensor too far back in the exhaust system.... OR the best yet is that there is a simple air leak around the welded in bung causing all manor of erroneous readings.


I think the key to ALL EFI is to stop thinking what you KNOW (or think you know) and start with a fresh attitude to learning about the system you're installing and think about WHY they instruct you to do certain things. Electrical system health and voltage are critical to these systems. That means really good electrical to all the various sensors. Some idiots put thread tape around the fittings making the grounds bad... Trust me -- it's all the little things you USED TO DO that bite you in the ass when you're working on EFI.

[ccracin]

I personally own TWO IR 8 stacks both running EZ EFI -- and have installed or worked on helping to set up at least half a dozen others - everything from Brodix headed BBC to SBF's... and every one of them has run flawlessly.

Remember that the EZ EFI ONLY CONTROLS THE FUELING.... nothing else. So while everyone is quick to blame the EFI because it's "new" or it's "self tune" or whatever excuse they can come up with.... every time I've chased someone else's issue -- it's been ANYTHING BUT the EFI.

It's usually some shortcut the installer has taken. Tapping the MAP off the wrong place or a shared source.... or the MSD distributor is installed as it came out of the box (with garage door springs and the wrong stop bushings) so the curve is all wrong.... or the 'Connect straight to the battery' has been ignored. Or the Tach input is wrong and it needs the signal conditioner that is optional... Or some wise guy decides that some sensor isn't really needed... or that he knows more about these systems than the engineers and has the O2 sensor too far back in the exhaust system.... OR the best yet is that there is a simple air leak around the welded in bung causing all manor of erroneous readings.


I think the key to ALL EFI is to stop thinking what you KNOW (or think you know) and start with a fresh attitude to learning about the system you're installing and think about WHY they instruct you to do certain things. Electrical system health and voltage are critical to these systems. That means really good electrical to all the various sensors. Some idiots put thread tape around the fittings making the grounds bad... Trust me -- it's all the little things you USED TO DO that bite you in the ass when you're working on EFI.

Excellent Info Greg!

[PTAddict]

I think the key to ALL EFI is to stop thinking what you KNOW (or think you know) and start with a fresh attitude to learning about the system you're installing and think about WHY they instruct you to do certain things. Electrical system health and voltage are critical to these systems. That means really good electrical to all the various sensors. Some idiots put thread tape around the fittings making the grounds bad... Trust me -- it's all the little things you USED TO DO that bite you in the ass when you're working on EFI.

All true, and very good advice. But if you're suggesting that the only reason these systems sometimes fail to work well is lack of attention to detail in the install - well, as described above, I have painful personal experience to the contrary. The cynical part of me wonders why there would be a need for a new, improved XFI 2.0 at all if "1.0" always worked so fabulously.

It seems Mark has figured out more than I did about how to fool these systems into doing the right thing, and kudos for that. But I wonder what the point is, when for just a little more money you can get a system like the Holley HP which has very good self-tuning capability for the fuel curve, but still allows for easy tweaking of transient fueling, idle, throttle follower, and spark advance if required - all those things that can make the difference between an engine that runs and one that runs really well. Yes, you have to have a computer to load the initial tune - but how many folks on this forum are really that afraid of computers?

[GregWeld]

All true, and very good advice. But if you're suggesting that the only reason these systems sometimes fail to work well is lack of attention to detail in the install - well....



I wasn't suggesting that at all.


What I AM SUGGESTING is that many (most) of the time it's not a defective part - it's a defective install. Yet people are most apt to quickly blame the EFI as the culprit.

For many -- the EZ EFI (or similar system) is nothing more than a carburetor replacement... and that is what it was meant to be. It's simple. It's effective. It's cost effective from an installation standpoint and from the lack of professional tuning and dyno time. Let's NOT try to compare the cost benefit analysis because there isn't one. Tuned vs Self tuning systems are not marketed nor meant to be for everyone. Many just don't need the tuned version.

Carburetors need tuning to be optimized. So does a self learning system such as the EZ EFI. There are Accel Fuel issues (particularly with IR systems) that can be adjusted etc. But A/F "ratios" are not that important to hit dead on unless you're trying to optimize for drag racing etc. You'll see very little HP/TQ number difference on the dyno between a WOT of 12.5 vs 12.8. The correct TIMING CURVE and TOTAL TIMING is far far more important. So my point is that for many people the tuned systems just aren't required or necessary to have a great driving and running car.

The "horror stories" are what scare people away from doing EFI AT ALL and that's more my point, because I'm a firm believer in EFI. Install the stuff with CARE and follow the instructions and most of the time the outcome will be very satisfying.

[Ketzer]

Yes, you have to have a computer to load the initial tune - but how many folks on this forum are really that afraid of computers?

I guess I would have to admit fear. While I do understand the basics of AFR, timing, fuel delivery, etc., I would be quite lost jumping into programming/modifying all those tables all by myself. I think there are a bunch like me out there too because the main focus of these latest systems (FAST, MSD, Holley) are developing a plug-n-play with a simple handheld and yes/no questions. I realize these simplified systems are insulting to you computer literate in the crowd and you cannot understand why we don't just do our own programming. It is the intimidation from the unknown but more than that, I'm not willing to learn at the expense of my engine or spend hours and hours just trying to get it to run slightly better than a carb. I very much enjoy working on my cars but am not excited about chasing these EFI gremlins we so ften read about. THAT is the appeal of a plug-n-play self learning system.

About the tuning side of it, There are also a ton of folks out there (several here in my hometown) that swear they are the best EFI gurus on the planet. How do you know if they are FOS until you turn them loose on your baby?


Jeff-

[PTAddict]

I wasn't suggesting that at all.


What I AM SUGGESTING is that many (most) of the time it's not a defective part - it's a defective install. Yet people are most apt to quickly blame the EFI as the culprit.

...

The "horror stories" are what scare people away from doing EFI AT ALL and that's more my point, because I'm a firm believer in EFI. Install the stuff with CARE and follow the instructions and most of the time the outcome will be very satisfying.

Agreed. The two cases I mentioned above were the only cases in 15 years of installing and/or tuning dozens of systems - FAST, Accel, Holley, AEM, BugStuff3, Mast, Motec, GM and Ford OEM - where I didn't get what I'd consider to be an acceptable result, which is an engine that works better than a carb under almost all conditions.

I guess I would have to admit fear. While I do understand the basics of AFR, timing, fuel delivery, etc., I would be quite lost jumping into programming/modifying all those tables all by myself. I think there are a bunch like me out there too because the main focus of these latest systems (FAST, MSD, Holley) are developing a plug-n-play with a simple handheld and yes/no questions. I realize these simplified systems are insulting to you computer literate in the crowd and you cannot understand why we don't just do our own programming. It is the intimidation from the unknown but more than that, I'm not willing to learn at the expense of my engine or spend hours and hours just trying to get it to run slightly better than a carb. I very much enjoy working on my cars but am not excited about chasing these EFI gremlins we so ften read about. THAT is the appeal of a plug-n-play self learning system.

About the tuning side of it, There are also a ton of folks out there (several here in my hometown) that swear they are the best EFI gurus on the planet. How do you know if they are FOS until you turn them loose on your baby?


Jeff-

I totally get the appeal and the promise of these systems, even for me - provided they work. I have no more desire than the next guy to ditz around with unnecessary work or arcane knowledge, which is why I recommended the EZ-EFI setup to customers in earlier days when it seemed to get nothing but positive press and feedback on the forums. But now I feel responsible for wasting other people's money on one car that doesn't run like it should, and another that barely runs at all, despite many hours of frustrating effort. I hate disappointing people, which is probably why I'm overreacting a bit here :)

BTW, lest it seem I'm just picking on FAST, we've recently had two potential customers drop in with the same kind of issues using the MSD "Atomic" system. We've told them we can try to help within the parameters provided by the hand held tuner, but there are no guarantees or even high confidence we'll fix their problems. So far, no takers on that bet ... Maybe I just live in some kind of vortex that attracts these problems :)

[Judgement]

Well I was at my buddy Peter Bergman's shop "Bergman Auto Craft" today and he looked over the system from front to back. He fixed a couple of issues from the previous installer. We went out and live tuned it and it still fell on its face we went back to the shop to check all the lines again but they were all good. So I took the fuel filter off, which was recommended here and what do you know there was a carb filter inside so we took it out then reinstalled it with out the block. We went back out to test it and W:idea: :idea: W I could not believe what a difference it was. The motor I built was finally there all 525hp and 620tq. A 5 cent carb filter block drove me crazy. Now we can fine tune the motor to perfection, I can't thank my good friend Peter Bergman enough and thanks to everyone who has replied to this post with help an suggestions!!!!!

[GregWeld]

Not the INSTALL!!! SAY IT AIN'T SO!!! :lol: :lol:


My guess is it ran like a f'n champ within 20 minutes. It will take a few starts for it to get that part spot on -- then you can hit the key and never touch the gas and it will fire off instantly.



Personally I'm so happy that you found the issue. Seems every time I've had to find something -- it always comes down to some stupid little item you wouldn't think of in a million years. I've learned to just look at EVERY SINGLE thing when someone is having an issue. I take nothing for granted and I don't care how many times a guy tells me he followed the instructions --- I find they DIDN'T.

[GregWeld]

I've had that conversation with David Page and Kevin Winstead even though they both agreed that there should be a "Tuner Backdoor" for guys that know what they are doing the Management at FAST has determined that they want the system sealed. I've done 3 EZ EFI systems- one on a common plenum manifold and two on direct runner manifolds. The common plenum engine was a caddy 500ci big block, it tuned out just fine and is a great driver. The other two with direct runner intakes were stroker small block Windsors and they were finicky.

The first one I did was soon after EZ EFI came out and actually cost me future business with the client. The system would develop a flat spot on moderate accel like briskly getting on the highway. FAST didn't have any ideas of what could cause it- I would clear out the program and it would go away for a while then tune itself back in. The client didn't want to wait for me to figure out what was wrong so I shipped him the car and of course it became a big issue.

The second one just develops random stumbles. The owner has just accepted it as part of driving a "race car" on the street but short of replacing the system I don't have any other options.

I've gone back to putting sequential XFI systems on everything. Direct runner intakes are tricky to properly tune unless you have experience with them. I have not yet seen a self-tuning system is smart enough to work out the necessary compromises that make it driveable in the real world.

Mark and I had a conversation about this a couple years back... It is easy for him to bash the FAST systems because he has seen a lot of badly installed and tuned systems... I've seen the same but I've also seen what they can do when they are set up properly. My tank is always half full but I don't think I'll be trying any of the EZ 2.0 systems.





The very first thing I'd check is that someone didn't install the ECU and or ANY of it's wiring --- or any sensor wiring -- ANYWHERE and I mean ANYWHERE near a high energy ignition system (MSD etc). I can't even begin to tell you what manor of issues this can buy you. It just simply can't be emphasized enough.

IR need a fat fuel ratio -- the air to cylinder is just so F'n fast in these systems. They're not going to idle or run on a 14.7 AF.... Idle needs to be more like 13.8 -- you can lean the cruise out "a little" but a little isn't 15! And there's an accel fuel number (in the advanced settings window) that can be brought in to help a stumble. Be careful with this number - just bump it or lower it - 1 number at a time and let the ECU learn before you change anything else.

[ccracin]

I have yet to find someone that tunes EFI for a living rave about self tuning systems. Go figure. Not calling anyone out, it's just human nature. If I sell PPG paint, I'm not going to recommend Dupont. Doesn't make sense. To each their own.

[Judgement]

No Greg you were spot on with a lot of things, the engine builder who installed the system had the map sensor hanging on by a thread, the throttle blades weren't adjusted properly etc... But the thing that made all the difference was the fuel filter. It was night and day an what a relief it is to know that it works. We still need to fine tune the timing and I want to check the MSD distributers springs an stops, I thought we changed them but I want to double check. Thanks for the great advice but it wasn't the instal LOL.:)

[GregWeld]

BTW, lest it seem I'm just picking on FAST, we've recently had two potential customers drop in with the same kind of issues using the MSD "Atomic" system. We've told them we can try to help within the parameters provided by the hand held tuner, but there are no guarantees or even high confidence we'll fix their problems. So far, no takers on that bet ... Maybe I just live in some kind of vortex that attracts these problems :)




I'd suggest that troubleshooting begins with a complete review of the install before you ever pick up the handheld.

The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. That is usually what happens with the handheld settings -- they're run over and over with minor tweaks --- resulting is a POS running car because it didn't fix the issue.

Finding the fault should simply begin with the fuel system - since that's all the ECU controls.... Are they running old crappy fuel lines that the new fuels have disintegrated and they're now causing issues with the filters or injectors.... Are there pre and aft filters of the proper size surrounding the fuel pump.... is the pressure set correctly in the ECU and actual readings... Next I look at the O2 sensor. It's usually fouled beyond recognition. I won't tell you how to clean it... I assume you know how. If not - just replace it.
Then I go for the wiring -- and that's where 90% of the issues are. Bad connections - connectors poorly crimped - bad or missing grounds - wiring intermingled with the MSD box or ECU too close to the MSD box.... Then I jump to the distributor curve and timing... checking the MAP sensor and it's install and source... and then finally pull the plugs because they'll be a disaster.... because usually the issues are from TOO MUCH fuel once the car runs like crap and the system can't adjust.

I don't bother to even turn the car over until I've checked every single facet of the install -- to include any sensor install (like tape used to seal the threads). The system won't start to self tune until it hits 140*.

Clear out the "program" and start over... making certain to know what injectors are being used. I like to default to putting in the injector sizing etc rather than selecting one of the "known" kit numbers.

On IR systems it takes a bit more prep -- and something that many don't do is they don't disconnect the linkage before making adjustments. They are IR systems for a reason! There's this word in there --- INDIVIDUAL..... side to side linkage has to be disconnected... and a manometer used to adjust each intake until they're perfect. If one is missed up the entire thing is messed up.
Sometimes the actual physical butterfly(s) needs to be tweaked.

And then the linkage is hooked back up once the idle and everything else is running as it should... and if hooking that up changes anything - then the linkage needs to be adjusted.

Finally I go back in to the handheld and reset the throttle for idle and WOT.... and fire it back off and adjust the idle in the handheld to where the car is currently idling. I never use a IAC in these systems - it's not necessary. But I like to set the physical idle - get the timing all dialed in etc -- and then go back and tell the ECU what the idle RPM is. It, of course, can't adjust the idle which is why it's asking for that info (it wants to control the IAC)... so I want the ECU to just see the tach input is say 800 --- and I know the motor is idling at 800 so I tell the handheld that the idle is set to 800. DONE.

I just did a Brodix headed 496 BBC --- IR --- It's idle doesn't vary 25 rpms using my dial back timing light that has RPM capability. That's confirmed by the handheld info screen as well.

[Ketzer]

You do make house calls, don't you GW ...? :poke:


Jeff-

[GregWeld]

You do make house calls, don't you GW ...? :poke:


Jeff-


HELL NO!! Well.... maybe for you I would.



You know what happens when you work on a buddies car???


It then comes with a lifetime warranty. For ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that goes wrong with it from then on.

Sometimes guys show up here - and I just tell them I don't know anything about "whatever" their problem is -- because I don't want to work on their crap in the first place now -- or in the future.

You see that one sign in my garage pics??? It's true!!!!





http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/file-9.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/file-9.jpg.html)

[camcojb]

Well I was at my buddy Peter Bergman's shop "Bergman Auto Craft" today and he looked over the system from front to back. He fixed a couple of issues from the previous installer. We went out and live tuned it and it still fell on its face we went back to the shop to check all the lines again but they were all good. So I took the fuel filter off, which was recommended here and what do you know there was a carb filter inside so we took it out then reinstalled it with out the block. We went back out to test it and W:idea: :idea: W I could not believe what a difference it was. The motor I built was finally there all 525hp and 620tq. A 5 cent carb filter block drove me crazy. Now we can fine tune the motor to perfection, I can't thank my good friend Peter Bergman enough and thanks to everyone who has replied to this post with help an suggestions!!!!!I found the same thing on one I worked on, and the fuel pressure would drop like a rock the longer you drove. The tough part was it was their filter supplied with their kit, so you would think it would be the proper EFI filter, not a bronze block like a carb uses. I have no idea how FAST could source that filter for their kits. I spoke to a guy at their SEMA booth and he admitted they had a ton of issues with the filter, but no explanation how it happened or why they hadn't fixed the issue.

[GregWeld]

The kit a friend bought had a carb fuel filter instead of an EFI one; had the solid block phenolic insert in it instead of a screen. Super restrictive and the fuel pressure dropped like a rock under load. Also the pump started getting louder after cruising for a bit.

You might want to check yours, because that was the supplied filter that came with the complete kit directly from FAST.



That was suggested in APRIL.... POST # 4


Good call Jody!!

[camcojb]

That was suggested in APRIL.... POST # 4


Good call Jody!!
Every once in a while I get it right. :confused59: Wonder why he didn't check it back then.

[Ketzer]

HELL NO!! Well.... maybe for you I would.

If ever you are in the southeast, I intend to find something for you to work on... something super greasy and half-a$$ed together! :popcorn2:



You know what happens when you work on a buddies car???


It then comes with a lifetime warranty. For ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that goes wrong with it from then on.

Oh wow, you've got the same buddies I do. I try to limit my "help" to handing them tools and saying "remove that, don't break that". When they call a week later and say their right headlight is out, oh well, that usually happens when you change tie rods....


Jeff-

[GregWeld]

If ever you are in the southeast, I intend to find something for you to work on... something super greasy and half-a$$ed together!



Oh great! That means I have to bring my own projects down since they fit the bill.

[JKnight]

Every once in a while I get it right. :confused59: Wonder why he didn't check it back then.

Wow, that was well done Jody. Good call.

I'm going to do one of the Holley HP EFI self-tuning setups soon, so between Weld's install suggestions, Holley's directions/tech support and the good folks here, I'm sure it'll work out well.

[GregWeld]

so between Weld's install suggestions, Holley's directions/tech support and the good folks here, I'm sure it'll work out well.




Well.... there.... you've made one mistake already!!!



:rofl:

[JKnight]

Well.... there.... you've made one mistake already!!!



:rofl:

Notice...I only called them suggestions ;)

[PTAddict]

I'd suggest that troubleshooting begins with a complete review of the install before you ever pick up the handheld.

The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. That is usually what happens with the handheld settings -- they're run over and over with minor tweaks --- resulting is a POS running car because it didn't fix the issue.

Finding the fault should simply begin with the fuel system - since that's all the ECU controls.... Are they running old crappy fuel lines that the new fuels have disintegrated and they're now causing issues with the filters or injectors.... Are there pre and aft filters of the proper size surrounding the fuel pump.... is the pressure set correctly in the ECU and actual readings... Next I look at the O2 sensor. It's usually fouled beyond recognition. I won't tell you how to clean it... I assume you know how. If not - just replace it.
Then I go for the wiring -- and that's where 90% of the issues are. Bad connections - connectors poorly crimped - bad or missing grounds - wiring intermingled with the MSD box or ECU too close to the MSD box.... Then I jump to the distributor curve and timing... checking the MAP sensor and it's install and source... and then finally pull the plugs because they'll be a disaster.... because usually the issues are from TOO MUCH fuel once the car runs like crap and the system can't adjust.

I don't bother to even turn the car over until I've checked every single facet of the install -- to include any sensor install (like tape used to seal the threads). The system won't start to self tune until it hits 140*.

Clear out the "program" and start over... making certain to know what injectors are being used. I like to default to putting in the injector sizing etc rather than selecting one of the "known" kit numbers.

On IR systems it takes a bit more prep -- and something that many don't do is they don't disconnect the linkage before making adjustments. They are IR systems for a reason! There's this word in there --- INDIVIDUAL..... side to side linkage has to be disconnected... and a manometer used to adjust each intake until they're perfect. If one is missed up the entire thing is messed up.
Sometimes the actual physical butterfly(s) needs to be tweaked.

And then the linkage is hooked back up once the idle and everything else is running as it should... and if hooking that up changes anything - then the linkage needs to be adjusted.

Finally I go back in to the handheld and reset the throttle for idle and WOT.... and fire it back off and adjust the idle in the handheld to where the car is currently idling. I never use a IAC in these systems - it's not necessary. But I like to set the physical idle - get the timing all dialed in etc -- and then go back and tell the ECU what the idle RPM is. It, of course, can't adjust the idle which is why it's asking for that info (it wants to control the IAC)... so I want the ECU to just see the tach input is say 800 --- and I know the motor is idling at 800 so I tell the handheld that the idle is set to 800. DONE.

I just did a Brodix headed 496 BBC --- IR --- It's idle doesn't vary 25 rpms using my dial back timing light that has RPM capability. That's confirmed by the handheld info screen as well.

Aha! You are a tuner, after all! The essence of EFI tuning is knowing what the system responds to and (hopefully) why, not whether you use a "real computer" to do it ;) There is stuff in here I've picked up next time I tune an IR system, like the idle stuff.

[GregWeld]

I started with Accel DFI stuff 15 years ago.... with the laptop and NO support... I've done Fast XFI... Back in the day - the weak link was the dual sync distributors.... They'd go gunnysack and nobody had one "in stock" so a car was dead until you could get some parts shipped out. The electronics just weren't that robust.... but once this EZ EFI stuff came out and you could just run a regular MSD distributor etc then everything was so much easier - I don't know why someone would go with anything else as long as they're just street cars/hot rods and not wound too tight. Big cams - forced air induction - they take the big stuff and lots of dyno and tuning time. I'm usually just messin' with somebody's hot rod.

[GregWeld]

On IR stuff -- the syncing of the stacks is absolutely crucial. They should be balanced to within 1 number.... whatever that number is... and with the cross linkage hooked up - you can't get 'em dialed in. You've got to drop that linkage off then you end up with 4 "pairs" and there are adjustments to each one and then the second one in the pair is driven off the other..... So I get one pair to read the same number -- Let's just say 10.... then I go to the next set - and try to get those to each read 10 but as the motor runs better --- the idle climbs -- so now I go back to the first pair and turn them down -- match their number - lets say it's now 8 -- got to pair two - get them both to 8 or close - go back and measure pair 1 -- adjust them and try to get the one side of the motor "close" -- then just to the other side - try to get the pair matched - then back them down to close to 8 - all the while I'm checking the "set" side... then on to the last pair -- try to dial them in --- now maybe everything is running better and smoother and the idle has climbed again.... no ya go back and you should just be able to drop the idle adjustment screws and that pair should stay sync'd up -- now go around AGAIN ---- and they'll all be able to be brought into total sync - but it takes time and very small adjustments. Imagine Injections stacks use a linked "arm" and screw and spring set up ---- The Inglese air valves use a shaft linkage and set screws -- undo the set screws on the shaft and they become adjustable individually.


To me -- it's like a more complicated 4 corner idle adjustment... you can't just go around the carb once - ya got to go around maybe a couple times or more to get 'em all running sweet.


When I get the idle all set physically and in the the handheld -- THEN we go for a drive.... making sure to try to HOLD a speed... the computer HUNTS for the air fuel setting -- so it goes fat -- then goes lean - then comes back a little less fat - then a little less lean at a vacuum (load) and RPM.... so I just try to drive and hold and give the little bugger some time to settle in before I add a different throttle setting. Again trying to find a different RPM/LOAD and let it bring that in.... and I try to find a hill and hold steady up a hill even if it's pissing the other cars off.... then I hit the highway and try to find a couple different RPMs to run at and let that "come in".... by now she should be running pretty good. It's easy to just set idle and cruise at the same setting -- just pick one -- I use 13.8.... and set WOT at 12.5.... now I just drive around for awhile letting all the different throttle settings come in.... then get into it a bit and hold -- and then a little more and hold.

Only after it's running really well do I go back and watch the idle rpms and vacuum go up or down as I play with the idle AF numbers - jump it to 14 and see what happens -- if it likes it - I'll go to 14.2 --- give it some time to settle in and see what happens etc. If it doesn't like it -- I go the other way unitl I'm pretty happy with what I'm seeing and hearing. NO DIFFERENT THAN ADJUSTING A CARB! Highest vacuum and idle is telling you it likes it.... lower and it's telling you it doesn't.

The CRUISE is far harder to dial.... so I go bigger changes --- because at cruise I'd like to run as lean as possible and you need to find what that is... so from 13.8 I'm going to jump right to 14.7 and drive it awhile before I make any other changes --- the computer needs to relearn the new AF --- and has to go back and learn and set - and smooth.... but after awhile (15 or 20 minutes of driving) you're going to have a good idea if that's going to work... IR's like a FAT A/F.... but if the car isn't doing anything weird that I can feel --- like bucking etc with light throttle cruising -- I'll lean it out to 15 and see if I can get away with that -- USUALLY NOT.... and I come back to something in the mid to high 14's.... then depending on the motor -- I'll set WOT at 12.8 -- it's pretty safe -- and most guys aren't drag racing.....


NOW ---- if the throttle acts dead off idle -- I'll go to the advanced settings and add ONE number in the accel fuel table --- see if that fixes it --- if not -- I add one more number... if that doesn't fix the flat spot I go the other way one number below what the base was.... sometimes the flat spot is lean - sometimes it might be too fat! You just don't know until you fuss with it just a bit. In the meantime I've done NO OTHER CHANGES.... I've got to let the ECU learn the fuel curve. And it needs a little time to makes it's adjustments because of the way it works (the too fat to too lean and back and forth a couple times before it settles in).

When I'm all done with that --- we go back to the manometer and check all of that and adjust if needed. SET the idle and tell the ECU what that is. By this time you should be done.

Now I go to the fan on settings and double check or adjust that... turn on usually 10* HIGHER than the thermostat... so a 180* thermostat I set the FAN ON at 190* or even 195* (some guys can't stand to see there temp fluctuate - it drives 'em crazy - so I get tighter on the setting for them). But I like to let the thermostat do what it's made to do -- it opens and it closes - slowly -- and it needs time to fully open and circulate some water... and I don't like the fans on continuously and I really don't want them on at all on the highway... And of course this all depends on how you're controlling the fans and A/C etc.


The key is to get the IR's dialed in FIRST --- because if they're off - you've got one cylinder running lean and another fat --- and the idle is all off which means the MAP is all over the place and the computer is load sensitive --- it's really using 3 criteria -- ECT -- MAP -- O2.... so the motor has to be warmed up (above 140* to start the self tune) and the load on the motor is critical to fueling --- and then it's reading and making adjustments to the fuel based on the smell test (the O2).... and if one of those is jumping around -- then getting her settled in is a bitch.

We know to adjust the idle bleeds on a carb first -- get it smooth -- adjust idle - check timing and adjust if needed. It's no different on a EFI application.

I'm no expert by the way --- I'm just writing this in an effort to help others that may be following or maybe thinking about an EFI install. The A/F's one motor needs can be completely different than another one... it depends on so many variables. If I'm asked BEFORE an engine is built -- I tell them to get some LSA in the cam -- like 112* or so..... these systems don't like lumpy jumpy 106* cams... for them you need a tunable version EFI.... but for a nice street rod/hot rod motor - with A/C etc --- then you want/need a fairly steady vacuum signal on the MAP sensor. A wider lobe separation angle (LSA) goes a long way to helping that. Modern LS3 engines use cams with 116* or more! So an LSA of 112* is still a bad ass sounding cam (other specs are important there too of course).


Timing and timing curve (advance) and total timing are far more critical to the power of the engine... With these systems the A/F only needs to be close. Without a dyno that's the best you can do is get 'er running nicely... and with the handheld - once you get it running really well -- you can fuss with A/F's all you want to! You only have the ability to change 3 numbers -- Idle AF -- Cruise AF and WOT AF. You'll really only hurt the motor with too lean of an WOT AF so I'd keep it safe in the 12.5 to 13 range and I wouldn't try to push it more than that unless you've got a dyno to run on and an experienced operator.

On my '32 I've messed with trying to get the cruise AF up near 15.5's but it doesn't like it -- and you know what -- the little bit it gets driven -- the difference between running it at 14.2 and 15 cruising isn't going to break the bank in fuel costs. It gets too lean at cruise and she starts bucking. It's noticeable in such a light little car. But the point is -- I can plug in the handheld and go driving and just change the one setting and she learns the new ratio and starts tuning to achieve that number... I know pretty soon if she's happy or not -- and if not -- it's so simple to just plug in a different number.

The Nomad or the '32 cold start within about half a rotation. I never have to touch the throttle... they just idle cold or hot... and they just fire off immediately hot or cold. They're both IR -- one is Inglese -- one is Imagine - both are EZ EFI. Both have healthy cams... one is a stick and one an automatic. One has one fan and no A/C and the other has dual fans and A/C... and the load on the motor is heavier when I turn on the stereo in the Nomad vs the A/C (HAHAHAHAHA - yeah it has some amps).

I've had more 'issues' tuning the simple little '32 with the stick because the SOB is so touchy. It's so light - the motor is 450hp -- and with the 8 stacks the throttle is INSTANT... which makes smooth take offs a bit of a trick... but that's not the fault of the EFI -- that's the fault of the 8 stacks instant response. That's why racers installed them in the first place! Instant throttle response! LOL

[David Pozzi]

I've done two EzEfi installs, one standard throttle body, and one 8 injector retrofit system, we already had the intake and throttle body.

Things I've learned are:
If you are not using the supplied throttle body unit, make sure you are inputting the correct info on injector size and flow.

The EFI power leads MUST connect to the battery terminal. I tried running off the radiator support power terminal near the battery because that's how far the wires reached. The Throttle position sensor readings & idle speed readings fluctuated, & idle was poor, - after going direct, they stabilized.

An HEI distributor will KILL the little tach conditioner box. Mine died in a few hours. I've heard of them dying while cranking on initial startup. The best solution was to install an MSD HEI module which has a clean tach output wire. Regular HEI modules have such a dirty tach output they can damage electronics. Keep in mind your module may be a Chinese made knock off part which may have NO tach filtering at all.

Keep the tach and TPS signal wires away from spark plug wires. The tach signal and Throttle position sensor signal are critical and need to be as clean as possible.

For most of my life I've maintained farm equipment, much of which had bronze filters. They filter too well, the super fine dust particles they stop can be so small they can't be seen. I've had plugged bronze filters that looked clean but you couldn't blow through them. Stay away from them for carb or EFI use, they plug easily.

The external pump may work but it's marginal for performance use when the fuel level goes down to half tank, - unless the tank has special baffles. If the pump takes in small bubbles, the pump performance will drop off and the engine will sputter. Modern cars have the pump in a fuel bucket to protect it from sloshed fuel bubbles.

Properly setting fuel pressure is easy to do wrong, read the instructions carefully, then read 'em again.

Setting the base idle screw is important, I had better results setting IAC "counts" to 20.

Throttle response can sometimes be improved by changing "enrichment" settings. Read the instructions carefully.

I've had more 'issues' tuning the simple little '32 with the stick because the SOB is so touchy. It's so light - the motor is 450hp -- and with the 8 stacks the throttle is INSTANT... which makes smooth take offs a bit of a trick... but that's not the fault of the EFI -- that's the fault of the 8 stacks instant response. That's why racers installed them in the first place! Instant throttle response! LOL
Greg, look at your throttle linkage ratios. A lot can be done to slow down the initial throttle opening ratio. All the early LS engines use a ramp system that has a slower initial opening for those huge single butterflies.

[GregWeld]

Greg, look at your throttle linkage ratios. A lot can be done to slow down the initial throttle opening ratio. All the early LS engines use a ramp system that has a slower initial opening for those huge single butterflies.



Good post David!

Yes I'm aware of the linkage ratio - and in the '32 they're wrong.... I just haven't wanted to tear into it to make the necessary changes. So sometimes I squawk the tires accidentally... HAHAHAHAHAHA

[Che70velle]

Great info here guys! Maybe even worth making a "sticky".

[David Pozzi]

IR systems are great for torque, but synchronizing the butterflies is absolutely critical to achieve driveability. The linkage must accommodate individual adjustment & the whole linkage has to "hang" on the throttle cable at idle the same way as when it's floored.

[GregWeld]

IR systems are great for torque, but synchronizing the butterflies is absolutely critical to achieve driveability. The linkage must accommodate individual adjustment & the whole linkage has to "hang" on the throttle cable at idle the same way as when it's floored.




SPOT ON David!!


I just disconnect the cross linkage (driver side to passenger side)… otherwise if a guy tries to set the idle - it's opening or closing both sides BEFORE I have them all sync'd up. Once they're sync'd then I can use just the idle screw.

[David Pozzi]

On weber carb set ups, I sync the front carbs to the rear carbs on each side using spring loaded balance screws, THEN adjust the linkage hex rod between them to balance left bank to right.

If there is a vacuum difference between venturies of a carb, it usually indicates a twisted throttle brass throttle shaft. When screwing on linkage arms, they are easily twisted, the good news is you can tweak them back. All v8 webber set ups should have the linkage pull between the carbs, not pull on the front or rear ends.