Which Super Charger Kit & Were To Buy

[Z10ROD]

I am building a 69 camaro for myself ( been working on a while) what I have already bought is one of unique performance"s body's from their bankruptsy auction I cut there mini tub system out and installed DSE quadralink and 9 inch as well as a DSE frt sub& frame connectors also have LSX 376 long block
want to use vintage airs frt runner system ( haven't bought )
will be using T56

any suggestions haven't build a forced induction 69 YET

Thanks Rod

[badmatt]

Tvs2300 based or a whipple.

Procharger makes some nice products as well but tends to look a bit cluttered.

[Sparks67]

I recommend a Harrop TVS 2300 or GM LS9 supercharger kit, which is also the TVS 2300. Wegner makes the accessory drive kit, which you have to buy separately on the Harrop TVS 2300. (Thomson Automotive is authorized dealer for Harrop, so probably can get you the drive also.) I got mine direct from Harrop, but that was in the past.

Jeff

[camcojb]

sure is pretty Jeff. :thumbsup:

[Z10ROD]

Thanks I knew you guy's would have an answer:cheers:

[Sparks67]

Thanks Jody!

Most of photos are on facebook, but I have to start another build thread soon. Rod, if you chose Harrop, they do treat you right after the sale. I give you my point of contact, but he is now at Rousch. It is probably best to contact Brian at Thomson Automotive. You need to specify your DSE subframe, because you will order the streetrod kit. If you go with the Harrop. There is a shaft distance for the supercharger. So, for example 2010 Camaro Harrop TVS 2300 won't fit in a 69 Camaro with DSE subframe due to the shaft distance.

Jeff

[Z10ROD]

yea my first phone call was an ug I have the LSX 376 PT# 19171049 Brian says I need pt# 19299306 so first I have called my GM guy back & now waiting on him to find that one it has an 8 bolt crank and can handle 15lbs boost. again ug but better to find out now:hail:

[Z10ROD]

Jeff
now that you tell me about the clearance issue this old foose car has a plate
welded to the firewall to make it smooth ?? I'm going to put this in anyway
so I can recess the area I guess ?

[canrc]

Hey Rod,

Have a look at the front intake/front drive unit from Harrop. I believe it eliminates the clearance issue in the back and it is much more user friendly with regards potential repairs or service. I have the same unit as Jeff and had it not been for Brian Thomson -- a $24 seal would have cost me round ticket to Australia to had repaired! Where as the new unit is much easier to separate if you have any issues.

And I believe Brian is the only one this side of the world to have one of the new Harrop units, not to mention the sounds pretty bada$$!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fkOOEIW02A

[Z10ROD]

Thanks Raj
keeping with my theme my accessories need to be black and I really wanted to run the front runner system but that has already been nixed by Brian will the frt drive system work with the frt runner system

[canrc]

Thanks Raj
keeping with my theme my accessories need to be black and I really wanted to run the front runner system but that has already been nixed by Brian will the frt drive system work with the frt runner system

Sorry that I don't know -- Brian may be the best person to answer that or even give Harrop a call directly. The Wegner drive setup should work with it and it comes in black but again I am not 100% sure.

[Z10ROD]

ug my chevy dealer I bought the 6 bolt crank LSX from says the 8 bolt LSX
IS BACK ORDERED and don't know when it will be available and to top that off they want a 900 buck restocking fee

so I am stuck either send back and lose 900 bucks and buy from pace who has it or just use it ?????

[Sparks67]

Jeff
now that you tell me about the clearance issue this old foose car has a plate
welded to the firewall to make it smooth ?? I'm going to put this in anyway
so I can recess the area I guess ?

The supercharger has a shaft, and to fit a variety of subframes. So basically, it based on one supercharger case with a specified shaft distance. Michael Hewitt told me about this when I placed the order. I have fire wall smoothed, with a plate welded on. I have 16 gauge sheetmetal welded on the firewall. Actually, it would have fit fine with Wegner's rear pulley setup, but I upgraded to the rear cog pulley setup from Harrop. The only reason that I had to modified firewall was because of Harrop's cog pulley was designed flush. See the allen bolts on the attached pulley. I couldn't even modify a allen wrench to get into the spot. While Casey Wegner's pulley alley's you to get to the allen bolt.

Although, recessing that firewall a little is a good idea. I have attached the photo of the Harrop rear cog pulley, it is the top pulley that is the problem.


Jeff

[Sparks67]

Hey Rod,

Have a look at the front intake/front drive unit from Harrop. I believe it eliminates the clearance issue in the back and it is much more user friendly with regards potential repairs or service. I have the same unit as Jeff and had it not been for Brian Thomson -- a $24 seal would have cost me round ticket to Australia to had repaired! Where as the new unit is much easier to separate if you have any issues.

And I believe Brian is the only one this side of the world to have one of the new Harrop units, not to mention the sounds pretty bada$$!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fkOOEIW02A


Raj,

I talked to Brian, and currently you are the only one that had a leaky seal. I am replacing the seal, but it is more of headache to find out later. I am glad that you posted the thread about it. GM and all companies are making engineering changes to improve their products. Traditionally, companies charge to replace a defective product. I had to argue with GM for 2 weeks on my 2000 Silverado over a transmission that failed to get replaced. The best that GM could do is make me pay half of the cost of the transmission, but it came with warranty.

Ron, I didn't mention Magnacharger, as a supercharger alternative. Magnacharger was sold to another company in 2010. Currently, Magnacharger is down to 20 employees and they are having management problems. Here is my thread on LS1-Tech.com, http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/1062374-ls3-416-harrop-htv-tvs-2300-supercharger.html If you read post 15, Magnacharger's only interest was in new cars. I wouldn't recommend them as a company.

As for the new supercharger design from Harrop. I like to see the back of the supercharger, but it looks more cosmetic changes in the casing design. Really hard to tell from the videos. Most of the changes that I can see from the video and Harrop's site appears to be focused on the front of the supercharger.

Jeff

[canrc]

Raj,

I talked to Brian, and currently you are the only one that had a leaky seal. I am replacing the seal, but it is more of headache to find out later. I am glad that you posted the thread about it. GM and all companies are making engineering changes to improve their products. Traditionally, companies charge to replace a defective product. I had to argue with GM for 2 weeks on my 2000 Silverado over a transmission that failed to get replaced. The best that GM could do is make me pay half of the cost of the transmission, but it came with warranty.

Ron, I didn't mention Magnacharger, as a supercharger alternative. Magnacharger was sold to another company in 2010. Currently, Magnacharger is down to 20 employees and they are having management problems. Here is my thread on LS1-Tech.com, http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/1062374-ls3-416-harrop-htv-tvs-2300-supercharger.html If you read post 15, Magnacharger's only interest was in new cars. I wouldn't recommend them as a company.

As for the new supercharger design from Harrop. I like to see the back of the supercharger, but it looks more cosmetic changes in the casing design. Really hard to tell from the videos. Most of the changes that I can see from the video and Harrop's site appears to be focused on the front of the supercharger.

Jeff

Definitely better to have it changed now to be safe, it sucks to have it done after it's all put together. When I spoke to the guys at Harrop they acknowledged that the leaky rear seal was a problem and that is why they went to a different seal from what was originally sent in our units. I only came to know of the problem when I googled it -- there were more than a few occurrences in Australia but I was also told that it was only a problem for blowers that sat around for a long period of time.

[Sparks67]

Raj,

The photos that Harrop shows of the HTV2300 FDFI is actually the HTV1900 FDFI, because here is the brochure http://www.harrop.com.au/pdf/HARROP_FDFI_SUPERCHARGER.pdf
It will still be tight, but you would only save the rear pulley setup. The design is similar to the LS9 supercharger, which uses gears in the back. There is photo of the front of the HTV2300 FDFI on facebook, but no back photo. The other problem is Casey making a pulley setup for the DSE subframe and the Harrop. I was told by the engine builder, that they had a 69 Camaro with DSE subframe in Detroit to mock up the harrop, so to check for fit with the Harrop in 2008.


Jeff

[Z10ROD]

I'm just going to take this LSX over to KIM BARR and STROKE IT and add the oil squirters. I need to get back into a first gen. tired of my Mopar:cheers:

[214Chevy]

This thread is very informative guys...thanks. I'm considering going forced induction myself. Can someone answer these questions or elaborate on them for me?

1) Approx how much does the Harrop unit cost?
2) What about Kenne Bell superchargers?
3) What about the upkeep/maintenance/reliability on superchargers?
4) I live in TX where it get 100+ degrees in the summer? How will this affect my summer driving?

[Sparks67]

This thread is very informative guys...thanks. I'm considering going forced induction myself. Can someone answer these questions or elaborate on them for me?

1) Approx how much does the Harrop unit cost?
2) What about Kenne Bell superchargers?
3) What about the upkeep/maintenance/reliability on superchargers?
4) I live in TX where it get 100+ degrees in the summer? How will this affect my summer driving?

1) I bought mine direct from Harrop, but the cost can be variable since Harrop is made in Australia. There is an exchange rate that is involved, when you buy a product from overseas. The rate changes daily, so when I bought mine when the exchange rate was lower. Now exchange rate is higher. xe.com has the conversion rates. If you buy via credit card, then the quote will increase 3%. I did a bank to bank transfer, which saved me more money.

Also, you are not buying their kit. There is not kit for 67-69 Camaro, so you have to buy their Generic kit or "Hot Rod" version. You will need to specify on the brand of subframe, car, engine, different cylinder heads, which side the air box assembly is going to be on the car. Perhaps you want polished etc.

Currently Harrop has the Rear Drive version and FDFI version

Rear cog was an extra cost item. You just get a quote, but it changed daily for me.

Harrop prices their products in Australian Dollar so you need to do the conversion from XE.com to get the US Dollar.

You can buy retail from Thomson Automotive as well. Of course, he run through these options for you as well.

2) Kenne Bell could be an option, but their intake design is odd. I am not sure if there is accessory drive setup for 67-69 Camaro with DSE subframe.

3) Harrop and Magnacharger is based off the LS9 supercharger rotors. So this a proven design. Drive system self-contained synthetic oil lubrication system for no maintenance.

4) If you live in Texas, then you need to have a custom built radiator with intercooler heat exchanger designed for your application. I suggest you contact an expert to answer your questions. The best expert in the field is Gerhard Schruf of Bell Intercoolers. He gave me lot of good advice, so that is the first person that I would contact. Gerhard expertise is designing the intercooler system for the supercharger. Gerhard advised me with a different intercooler pump, which I haven't seen in a build to date. This pump flows more than the bosch intercooler pump. I contacted several companies to develop the cooling system, but Jim at AutoRad was the only company that could develop the entire system. Gets complicated, when you need transmission cooler, radiator, a/c condenser, intercooler heat exchanger, etc. Jim didn't recommend oil cooler via the radiator, but external cooler with a fan.

Packaging the system is the hardest part, because it varies on your application. Gerhard talked about putting the biggest intercooler heat exchanger behind the grill. Now you have to fit that into your core support, which limits you by design if you use the stock core support. Another option is develop a custom core support. Another cool build is this project from DSE. http://www.detroitspeed.com/projects/avespi69/avespi69-pg-1.html The photo is on page 6, but I think this might be the best design to date. The owner lives in Jacksonville, FL. I lived there for 4 years and temperature would be in high 90F, but the problem was the humidity. Ohio can get up to 100F during July and August as well. Never been to Texas. The design of the intercooler gives him the maximum airflow to the intercooler. Stielow uses the stock core support with thicker radiator. I went with the Autorad design by using a wider radiator. So, that is the 3 options that I know of cooling the intercooler heat exchanger.


Jeff

[Bowtieracing]

Packaging the system is the hardest part, because it varies on your application. Gerhard talked about putting the biggest intercooler heat exchanger behind the grill. Now you have to fit that into your core support, which limits you by design if you use the stock core support. Another option is develop a custom core support. Another cool build is this project from DSE. http://www.detroitspeed.com/projects/avespi69/avespi69-pg-1.html The photo is on page 6, but I think this might be the best design to date. The owner lives in Jacksonville, FL. I lived there for 4 years and temperature would be in high 90F, but the problem was the humidity. Ohio can get up to 100F during July and August as well. Never been to Texas. The design of the intercooler gives him the maximum airflow to the intercooler. Stielow uses the stock core support with thicker radiator. I went with the Autorad design by using a wider radiator. So, that is the 3 options that I know of cooling the intercooler heat exchanger.


Jeff


That was all really good info Jeff:thankyou:

But what about all different TVS2300 based superchargers internal coolers? Wich of them is most efficient?

[214Chevy]

I spoke to Jeff yesterday about 30 minutes in detail about superchargers, etc. This guy know his stuff and answered alot of my questions. Big ups to Jeff!!:idea:

[Sparks67]

That was all really good info Jeff:thankyou:

But what about all different TVS2300 based superchargers internal coolers? Wich of them is most efficient?

The internal cooler underneath the supercharger? Well, there is only limted amount of testing on the new Harrop HTV2300 FDFI, since it was just released. That video is the only one that I seen so far on that new design. The brochure doesn't give you testing results, but more of a chart and a brief sentence. The problem is I don't see any data to back up the testing. So until you have more testing, it would be hard to make estimate at this time. Although, Gerhard Schruf of Bell Intercoolers did discuss about redesigning the internal intercooler for my Harrop HTV2300 in 2009. Never asked about the cost, but he be the person to talk too.

Jeff

[Sparks67]

I spoke to Jeff yesterday about 30 minutes in detail about superchargers, etc. This guy know his stuff and answered alot of my questions. Big ups to Jeff!!:idea:

Thanks Marcus, when I built my engine it was lot of hands on learning experience. My engine builder involved me a lot in the build of the engine, so I know lot of the details. Although, I got lot of advice from the experts in the field.

Jeff

[gnx7]

Have you thought of running a turbo setup instead? Less heat soak, no belt slippage issues, electronic boost controller to modulate the power easier, EBC can also have multiple power settings vs having to change pullies, more hood clearance.....

Have fun putting down 700rwtq+ off idle to the pavement. Plus the ability for servicing of a turbo locally etc.

A killer turbo is around $1500 (or much much less), use factory cast GM exhaust manifolds for the hot side with a fabricated crossover to the turbo inlet (no need to buy headers), A/W or A/A intercooler options $200+ new, $350 wastegate new. Plenty of shops in TX can build you a custom setup if your shop can't.

I'm planning to make 700-800rwhp on a stock $650 shortblock with my setup. 1 setting for 91 octane/meth injection and another for e85.
Traction modulation from either boost by gear or Davis Technologies traction control via the Holley HP EFI.

[Z10ROD]

well I talked to Kim Barr about my LSX 376 he seems to think it will be fine the way it is so I am NOT listening to the guy That told me I had the wrong LSX376 ( there is 2 part #'S) I trust his advice HE said it will be GOOD.
ALSO talked to LOU @ LG and Shawn Burt his tuner now @ TRU street.
and a guy named Andy. Maybe I just got told what I wanted to hear??
NOT!! I was worried about nothing. this is my first blower car I'll start a build thread soon its coming along.:G-Dub:

[Sparks67]

well I talked to Kim Barr about my LSX 376 he seems to think it will be fine the way it is so I am NOT listening to the guy That told me I had the wrong LSX376 ( there is 2 part #'S) I trust his advice HE said it will be GOOD.
ALSO talked to LOU @ LG and Shawn Burt his tuner now @ TRU street.
and a guy named Andy. Maybe I just got told what I wanted to hear??
NOT!! I was worried about nothing. this is my first blower car I'll start a build thread soon its coming along.:G-Dub:

The 2 top guys in the country is Brian Thomson and Kurt Urban for Supercharged LSX engines. Brian was the first one in the country to use the Harrop TVS 2300 in 2007. Here is magazine article.
http://www.chevroletperformance.com/_res/pdf/MagazineArticles/PontiacEnthusiast_LSXEngineBuild.pdf

If you plan to stroke the engine, then it would have better to start off with a bare block. Brian just gave you the part number for the 15psi LSX engine, which has all forged parts. Your LSX 376 is good for 8PSI, the powdered rods and cast crank. Brian makes zero on this, but the other way is to do a custom engine build.

When mine was built, I started with a bare block and I specified all US made forged components. So, the Crower crankshaft is a more expensive forged crank, and is made in the Good old USA. Most of the crankshafts are now made overseas (China) with cheap ore.

Jeff

[214Chevy]

I agree with Jeff. There is no "right or wrong" LSX376. It's just one is built for 8lbs of boost the other for 15lbs of boost. Hence, the 2 part numbers. I think what he may have been trying to say by "the wrong" LSX376, is he assumed you would probably want to run more than 8lbs of boost. If not, you will be fine just like Kim Barr said.

[Sparks67]

Here is the 2 part numbers and you can compare parts.

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/LSX376-Crate-Engine-19171049-P10784.aspx

I seen the process for powder metal parts, it is cool process. Just I would prefer a forging than a powder metal rod at 15 psi.

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/LSX376-B15-19299306-P50811C556.aspx

Here is the 15 psi version, as you can see it is more than just the 8 bolt crank. It is all forged engine.

If you go the custom built engine, then you can go with a cheap import (Chinese) crank or US forged crankshaft. Depends on how much you want to spend on the engine, but on supercharged engine you want it to reliable without problems. So investing in better parts is the best solution. A friend of mine that races has a big block with a Lunati Pro Series forged crank. This cranks has lasted him a long time without failure. Probably 15 years, but not sure. He has to replace blocks, but never the crankshaft. This engine made close to 900hp without NOS, but he has a kit now to put 900 hp of NOS on it. It is your choice on how reliable you want the engine to be.

Jeff

[Z10ROD]

what I was told is there are many stock LS1's 2's 3's da da around this area
running up to 25psi boost. some even dynoed around 1200hp ????
I'm thinking somewere around 15 to 20 psi and a good tune.

[214Chevy]

what I was told is there are many stock LS1's 2's 3's da da around this area
running up to 25psi boost. some even dynoed around 1200hp ????
I'm thinking somewere around 15 to 20 psi and a good tune.

25lbs of boost on a stock block. Uhh, I don't believe that. Like you said... "what you were told." Not saying it ain't true, but at 25lbs of boost, I would suspect it's a matter of not if it's gonna break, but a matter of when. I'm just saying that for as expensive as a supercharger is, I would make sure everything is gonna hold up so I wouldn't have to rebuild it again. I've heard of stock blocks being resleeved to be able to handle 20-25lbs of boost. 15-20lbs of boost is good and would make some good power. But, I don't think the Magnuson TVS 2300 makes that much boost. That's why I went with a Kenne Bell 3.6.

[Sparks67]

what I was told is there are many stock LS1's 2's 3's da da around this area
running up to 25psi boost. some even dynoed around 1200hp ????
I'm thinking somewere around 15 to 20 psi and a good tune.

That is rather vague statement, because it could be a turbo engine or another type of supercharger. Here is a thread on the powder metal rods, and how much horsepower they can handle. http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=206633 looks to be around 570 HP on stock powder metal rods. I saw another thread on Howard Powder metal rods, and they are good to around 800 HP. This article here talks about the components inside the LS engines. http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/102010_07.pdf "All OE LS pistons are hypereutectic cast type (alloy with high silica content),
except for the LS9 piston, which is a forged aluminum piston (required to handle the higher cylinder pressures associated with supercharging/forced induction)." I haven't even gone into the block or crank.


The Harrop TVS2300 and Magnacharger can go 15 psi.

[Josh@ottp]

Here is the Harrop FDFI 2300. I am not a vendor here yet so I won't be posting any prices.

[camcojb]

Here is the Harrop FDFI 2300. I am not a vendor here yet so I won't be posting any prices.
cool looking piece. :thumbsup:

[214Chevy]

cool looking piece. :thumbsup:

Yeah...very cool!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: