Twin turbo build help..

[rons69camaro]

I'm currently in the middle of a twin turbo build/swap from a 383 on my '69 Camaro and looking for some advice/suggestions. I'll start with what I have for the swap.. A completely stock LS1 out of a '99 Camaro and a T56 out of an M12 '04 GTO. I made the same mistake as most and wasn't originally planning on going with a boost set up and also bought a set of TFS 220 heads that were milled to produce 11:1 compression with Mahle pistons and factory head gaskets.

My goal is to get to around 650 hp. What I'm trying to figure out: Should I sell off the heads for lower compression, do I need to do anything to the bottom end of the LS1, what turbos would be ideal/recommended, and what's recommended for the rest of the conversion (ie fuel set up tank pump injectors, transmission parts, wastegates, blow off valves, should I upgrade my intake and throttle body, etc.?

[214Chevy]

I'm no expert, but most definately you're going to have to strengthen the bottom end with twin turbos. That's if you want to make real power and run boost above 8 or so pounds. I would like to think with two turbos you want to make some brute power and a stock end wouldn't hold up. So, you'll need a forged rotating assembly. Without a forged bottom end, 10-12 pounds will be too much boost on a stock crank, rods, etc. Also, if you can get a good price on the heads sell them, make sure you lower your compression ratio with the right pistons as well. Sounds like it'll be a sweet setup.:cheers:

[clill]

You say you are in the middle of the swap but it appears you have not bought any of the turbo stuff yet ? Speaking from experience I would change plans and do a Eaton style blower.

[rons69camaro]

You say you are in the middle of the swap but it appears you have not bought any of the turbo stuff yet ? Speaking from experience I would change plans and do a Eaton style blower.

What's the advantage/disadvantage?

[clill]

quicker throttle response, alot less underhood heat, alot less plumbing and associated costs, easier to make it all fit. I just think it will be alot easier to get to the power level you want to be at and I love these LS engines with the blower on them. They work great with no drama.

[WSSix]

I'll second Charlie's suggestion. Eaton blowers look great and perform great as well.

To build this engine to your power goals, go ahead and get forged pistons and better connecting rods. Go with 6.0 liter style heads. Ported 317 heads will work great and you can go with a mild port job to keep costs down. Get a blower cam and 1-3/4 primary headers and you'll make you goals. I suggest a head change simply because better heads would really help the build, and should you ever remove the blower, you can put 5.7 liter heads on the engine and regain your current compression. Your goals are easy. You can make this level of power with 8 psi no sweat. Hell, I've done it with 5.5 psi and LS6 heads.

EDIT: Just reread your original post and realized you already own great heads. Go ahead and pick up some lower compression pistons. Shoot for 10:1 psi if not 10.25:1 With forged pistons you'll be fine. Speed Inc is in Illinois and they can help you for sure if you're wanting to contact someone local for advice and maybe parts.

[Jr]

What about the crazy high incoming air temps associated with eaton style blowers? What is the fix for getting the IAT numbers down? And heat soak?

[camcojb]

What about the crazy high incoming air temps associated with eaton style blowers? What is the fix for getting the IAT numbers down? And heat soak?

The heat management issues with turbos will be as big or probably a bigger problem than IAT's with a blower. I know Mark Stielow's latest car had very good IAT's in real world conditions.

[John510]

Turbos are way more bad ass though!

[PTAddict]

Turbo or blower, I'd get that compression lowered. We've built a couple of blower setups on top of stock LS6 motors (10.5 compression), and max power was seriously limited by the amount of timing we could use before hitting knock retard. With ~6 PSI boost, we were hitting knock retard at just 9 degrees advance at max volumetric efficiency (in the 3500-4500 RPM range). Just my opinion, I'd shoot for about 9.5 (which, incidentally, is about where the LSA and LS9 are).

That brings up another point, which is that I'd use an ECU which has provision for knock sensing, like a GM, Mast, or Holley. Detonation can destroy a boosted motor very quickly, and you don't want to worry about a tank of bad gas causing 5 digit rebuild costs. With knock sensing, you can tune less conservatively and still be more protected.

[Jr]

The heat management issues with turbos will be as big or probably a bigger problem than IAT's with a blower. I know Mark Stielow's latest car had very good IAT's in real world conditions.

Jody,
Marks setup has had hours of dyno testing to get it where it's at. Plus, the cost of a Thompson built motor vs a ls with a magnacharger on top is a night and day difference in performance, engineering, and IAT numbers

[camcojb]

Jody,
Marks setup has had hours of dyno testing to get it where it's at. Plus, the cost of a Thompson built motor vs a ls with a magnacharger on top is a night and day difference in performance, engineering, and IAT numbers

I understand that. I would look at more than just air temps when picking a forced induction direction. They all have advantages and disadvantages.

[gnx7]

Look up the gearing in that GTO transmission. It isn't the best for a turbo setup IMO. the 2.66 1st gear style '98-02 Fbody transmissions would be better or if you can afford it a new T56 Magnum which is 10x better in all ways.

A stock pre '05 engine has LS1 style rods which are good to around 550-600rwhp before they bend. With a perfect tune it will last.... but in the end the rods will bend. LS2 style rods seem to be good to around 800-900rwhp.

A stock intake and TB will meet your power goals easily. A single turbo would meet your goals easily but twins are aesthetically more pleasing... and more $.

If you don't plan to AutoX or Road race your car you probably don't really need the aluminum block. Crunching the numbers with the power you want... it may be best to sell that LS1 instead of building it up... and get an '05+ style engine.

[TurboBu]

6.0 truck heads, arp or eBay studs, ls9 gaskets, mid to upper 22x°@.050" 114° lsa cam with good springs and a pair of 5858 provisions. it' 'll have way more power than a roots and be just as responsive. PM 417 Motorsports on here it you decide to go turbo.

[Zspoiler]

You need to lower the compression to no higher than 8:1 . No higher otherwise you will have to run race gas.I would use a Blower/Turbocharger piston,with a strong bottom end. Good set of heads

[TurboBu]

8:1 compression is for dinosaur engines oe iron headed sbc and bbc with bad combustion chamber designs. LSX engine will be a slug on the bottom end like that

[Zspoiler]

Excuse Me, I`m running a set of ported Eldelbrock Performer RPM Aluminum Cylinder heads.With 2:05 intake /1:60 Manley valves. And I run 15 lbs of boost. And I know a number of successful engine builders. 8:1 compression is the maximum compression.Unless you want to run alcohol or race gas.Other wise the pre ignition will kill the rings.

[TurboBu]

I'm currently in the middle of a twin turbo build/swap from a 383 on my '69 Camaro and looking for some advice/suggestions. I'll start with what I have for the swap.. A completely stock LS1 out of a '99 Camaro and a T56 out of an M12 '04 GTO. I made the same mistake as most and wasn't originally planning on going with a boost set up and also bought a set of TFS 220 heads that were milled to produce 11:1 compression with Mahle pistons and factory head gaskets.

My goal is to get to around 650 hp. What I'm trying to figure out: Should I sell off the heads for lower compression, do I need to do anything to the bottom end of the LS1, what turbos would be ideal/recommended, and what's recommended for the rest of the conversion (ie fuel set up tank pump injectors, transmission parts, wastegates, blow off valves, should I upgrade my intake and throttle body, etc.?

Where in this posted by the OP does say anything about a gen 1 small block? It's a LS1 which has much more efficient combustion chambers than any 23* sbc head. It will be a slug below 9:1 and it will be completely happy on 91-93 octane gasoline at 9.5:1. and if he decides to run E85 on a good tune it will live at 700hp on a stock long block plus a decent cam of which I would highly recommend LilJohn Motorsports.

[TurboBu]

My buddies and I know nothing about turbocharging LS engines.:mock:
My street/strip car
http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss190/TurboBu/Shanes%20TurboBu%20Projects/62%20chevy%20II%20Plain%20Jane/96EA6FF5-9DC8-40B3-8E29-7FF7E77C477F-880-0000016A4E2B31BE_zpsfa5afbf2.jpg (http://s574.photobucket.com/user/TurboBu/media/Shanes%20TurboBu%20Projects/62%20chevy%20II%20Plain%20Jane/96EA6FF5-9DC8-40B3-8E29-7FF7E77C477F-880-0000016A4E2B31BE_zpsfa5afbf2.jpg.html)
Fitz's T/A
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=30588

[417 Motorsports]

Excuse Me, I`m running a set of ported Eldelbrock Performer RPM Aluminum Cylinder heads.With 2:05 intake /1:60 Manley valves. And I run 15 lbs of boost. And I know a number of successful engine builders. 8:1 compression is the maximum compression.Unless you want to run alcohol or race gas.Other wise the pre ignition will kill the rings.

I'm sorry but you are a prime example of why the Internet is such a bad source for technical information. 8:1 compression was great in the early days of turbocharging but with today's technology it only makes fr a sluggish unresponsive "n/a" motor until the turbo is able to achieve positive pressure.

In today's modern day its not uncommon to see 9.5, 10, even 10.2:1 factory produced forced induction engines rinning on 91-93 octane pump gas. My personal car is 11:1 on pump fuel (e85) sees 24-25 psi with 24' of timing in boost and has been together making 4 digit rwhp numbers for 4 years currently with no issues.

Keep in mind sir, there's ALOT more to making a boosted motor happy then just compression ;)

Cheers

Blake

[2keaton11]

Im also in the process of doing this, I picked up a kit that was designed for a SBC and im running an L92, it was all brand new and got everything complete for to cheap I felt. I hear the compression from a L92 is lower than a typical LS3, is this true? Useful information from a lot of smart guys on here. Who builds a nice set of Turbo Headers, I heard OBX from John 510 and Is there anyone in Oklahoma who can help set it up? I think I would like to finish the car and drive it before I blow the motor up but no problem in having the info advance and going ahead and placing the orders. :whenitsdone:

[RidiCat69]

My buddies and I know nothing about turbocharging LS engines.:mock:
My street/strip car
http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss190/TurboBu/Shanes%20TurboBu%20Projects/62%20chevy%20II%20Plain%20Jane/96EA6FF5-9DC8-40B3-8E29-7FF7E77C477F-880-0000016A4E2B31BE_zpsfa5afbf2.jpg (http://s574.photobucket.com/user/TurboBu/media/Shanes%20TurboBu%20Projects/62%20chevy%20II%20Plain%20Jane/96EA6FF5-9DC8-40B3-8E29-7FF7E77C477F-880-0000016A4E2B31BE_zpsfa5afbf2.jpg.html)
Fitz's T/A
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=30588

Apparently....why hot pipe? Beautiful install tho I must say!

[417 Motorsports]

Hot pipe? You mean no intercooler? There's n air to water inside the manifold :)

You could say it works lol
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VORuB6yXKiM

Blake

[417 Motorsports]

Im also in the process of doing this, I picked up a kit that was designed for a SBC and im running an L92, it was all brand new and got everything complete for to cheap I felt. I hear the compression from a L92 is lower than a typical LS3, is this true? Useful information from a lot of smart guys on here. Who builds a nice set of Turbo Headers, I heard OBX from John 510 and Is there anyone in Oklahoma who can help set it up? I think I would like to finish the car and drive it before I blow the motor up but no problem in having the info advance and going ahead and placing the orders. :whenitsdone:

I'm in southwest mo ;)

[RidiCat69]

Hot pipe? You mean no intercooler? There's n air to water inside the manifold :)

You could say it works lol
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VORuB6yXKiM

Blake

Ahhh....very nice. Kind of an air to air fan myself, now, but that's only because I have an 04 cobra as a daily driver....can you say hear soak with manifold mounted intercooler?! Your water to air mounted elsewhere than my factory bumper mount on my cobra is prolly far more efficient. Different but well done!

[417 Motorsports]

No heat soak issues here... We use a chiller that utilizes the ac compressor and freon in conjunction with our water tank to cool the water on this street car. During hot rods drag week on a 95 degree day we logged 67 degree intake temps :)

Cheers

Blake

[Fitz78ta]

This was my stock 98 motor twin turbo kit 417 motorsports built as well. We did this back in 2004, made 575 rwhp till 2008 when I pulled the motor out and sold it for my built one (really bringing back the past here lol). As long as the tune is right they will last.

If you leave the stock motor and compression just be sure to be conservative on timing and rpm. That is what will kill a stock motor.

http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad297/Fitz98/0804gmhtp_02_z1998_pontiac_trans_am.jpg (http://s945.photobucket.com/user/Fitz98/media/0804gmhtp_02_z1998_pontiac_trans_am.jpg.html)

[INTMD8]

Hot pipe? You mean no intercooler? There's n air to water inside the manifold :)

You could say it works lol
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VORuB6yXKiM

Blake

I sent you an email on that intercooler. Let me know the price of the core if you have it available.

[rons69camaro]

My buddies and I know nothing about turbocharging LS engines.:mock:
My street/strip car
http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss190/TurboBu/Shanes%20TurboBu%20Projects/62%20chevy%20II%20Plain%20Jane/96EA6FF5-9DC8-40B3-8E29-7FF7E77C477F-880-0000016A4E2B31BE_zpsfa5afbf2.jpg (http://s574.photobucket.com/user/TurboBu/media/Shanes%20TurboBu%20Projects/62%20chevy%20II%20Plain%20Jane/96EA6FF5-9DC8-40B3-8E29-7FF7E77C477F-880-0000016A4E2B31BE_zpsfa5afbf2.jpg.html)
Fitz's T/A
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=30588

Love the build!

[rons69camaro]

I ended up calling AES and having them build up a 390 that should suit my application, a little bit of overkill.. Now it's on to figuring out what to do for an intercooler!

[Shmoov69]

:y0!: Call Blake at 417. :thumbsup:

[mnm99]

Love the build!

Nice system. No heat soak here. Mine Runs at 185* all day long.

[Bowtieracing]

Hot pipe? You mean no intercooler? There's n air to water inside the manifold :)

You could say it works lol
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VORuB6yXKiM

Blake

What a launch, i would wet my pants behind the wheel..

Can you show how the air to water cooler was build in the manifold?

[Windsor GTO]

You can put in a thicker head gasket from Cometic and drop to 10.5 or 10-1. No need to go lower as the compression will help spool the turboe. 6.0 factory manifolds facing forward and weld from there to make the connection top to turbos.

I would go with twin 57-60mm and a 60mm exh housing and it will spool fast, A/A even a ebay will work and just make sure the wastegates are good and a large blow off valve so there is no surge. AMS 500 for boost control and you are kicking as$!

[E.rodz]

wow I thought this forum had more people that would not give out info that they new nothing about but I was wrong! 8.5 compression ratio not true at all!you could go up to 10:1 with pump gas. will a alum. block and stock rods be able to handle it yes all day long at the kind of power levels you are looking for. I run a stock 5.3 short block with a set of ported 241 heads and with the twin 57mm turbos it turns 550 to the rear wheels on pump gas at 13# of boost on pump gas it has more to to offer with switching over to e85 but supper happy with 550 rwhp for and everyday driver. are you capable of doing the fab for turbos yourself? this is were the money comes from it is time consuming and it costs alot in labor this is were the supercharger option might be better for you.what kind of car is this going in?
http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu160/erodz/63%20belair%20build/IMAG1431.jpg (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/erodz/media/63%20belair%20build/IMAG1431.jpg.html)

[catz]

I've had eaton, procharged and turbo, setups on a ls based engines, I like the turbo the best. My current driver has a ls1, with rods, pistons,ls6 intake compression is 9.2 1, it made 680 hp to the rear tires on pump gas. I drive this to work, 60 miles round trip, no under hood heat issues and if you drive normal still gets good fuel economy . I would keep the heads and get rods and pistons.

[catz]

Quick video of my car on the dyno http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVFUDHp7N-8

[Revved]

Ahhh....very nice. Kind of an air to air fan myself, now, but that's only because I have an 04 cobra as a daily driver....can you say hear soak with manifold mounted intercooler?! Your water to air mounted elsewhere than my factory bumper mount on my cobra is prolly far more efficient. Different but well done!



I may be reading your post wrong but just want to make sure you know your 04 Cobra is Air to Water intercooled. You have a charge air cooler under your supercharger and a pump that that circulates the hot coolant down through the tiny radiator in your lower bumper to cool it..

This is Air to Air....
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv328/RevvedAC/SS021/SS021EngineShotWatermarked.jpg

Sorry to throw a S/C pic in a Turbo thread.... the next build is getting a TT Coyote.

And as E-Rod said above... IMHO 8.5 is too low for a street driven turbo motor. With that low of compression it would be a slug till the boost kicked in. I run 8.8:1 in most of the S/C stuff I do but belt driven is constantly forcing boost down the TB... with a street driven turbo setup you would run more along the low-mid 9's or even as high as 10:1 if you wanted to be really snappy and then Turbo from there. You get a solid driving street car before the boost and it just gets better. With regards to driveability and seat of the pants feel- compression ratio vs Turbo and pipe sizing is more critical than it is on S/C applications. Yes, it is true that the lower compression and higher boost will give you bigger peak numbers but unless this is a racecar your sacrifice in driveability won't be worth it. Why do you think the F&F crowd likes backing their turbos with NOS? Turbo is too big and the static CR is low so it will make big hp once you get spinning but the drivability sucks... its a pig off the line so spraying NOS through the impeller artificially spools the turbo faster than the exhaust will. Since most of the stuff you will see on this site is decent cubic inch American V8 we make enough torque to get away with more than a 4-6 banger import but you've still got to look at the big picture of how you want to drive this car. Another way to compensate is with sequential tubos... one small to spool off the line and a larger one to take over at higher flow like the 90's Supra Turbos. Or like the 6.0 turbo diesel crowd had... a variable geometry turbo that changes the housing size by RPM...acts like a small turbo at low RPM and then opens up as the RPM increases.

Another good point previously mentioned is the quality of your internals. Your stock short block should hold together under moderate boost and moderate use but if you start getting greedy and want to turn up the boost you should invest in a solid bottom end before it grenades on you.

Turbos do add complexity. Turbos are IMHO more complex to setup and tune than a S/C application but not undoable (you spend your time in plumbing rather than driving belts) But after doing the last 6 supercharged, intercooled, EFI big block motors I'm excited to do a couple turbo applications for the drivability factor... A 1000+ hp blown motor drives like that all the time... a 1000+ hp Turbo motor can be driven like a regular car when you aren't in the boost. If you are worried about IAT, definitely intercool or look at a rear mounted turbo system like STS.

[ADiCarlo]

Has anyone been able to keep A/C and if so what pulley/brackets and headers did you use?

[will69camaro]

I'm planning on keeping A/C on mine with the turbo setup.

March or Vintage Air front drive/accessories
Stainless works headers (down/forward flipped)
Autorad radiator/condensor/intercooler setup

:G-Dub:

I'll post pics when it all arrives and of course when we start building the turbo kit. GAP is helping me with all this but I am SURE we'll keep the A/C with this setup.

William