Somebody FREAKIN shoot me!!!!

[Al Moreno]

:faint:

[intocarss]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :( :( :(

[Ns RS]

you give love a bad name?? really though hope you're ok, sema pics were great

[Shmoov69]

It'll come soon enough........:(

[fleetus macmullitz]

That universally sucks. :(

[GregWeld]

:faint:



Okay -- Seriously? Can you elaborate on that just a bit? Shot you with a camera? A gun?

I really hope you're kidding!!

[dug]

Okay -- Seriously? Can you elaborate on that just a bit? Shot you with a camera? A gun?

I really hope you're kidding!!

greg- i think he's upset Obama won.....

[GregWeld]

Well --- then maybe it should be


Somebody just freakin SHOOT me....

[DETON8R]

My sentiments exactly.

[Tuske427]

Amen, brother

[sokoloka]

Less than pleased at the moment.

[Radlark]

Disappointment comes in a number of forms......as does the opposite......LUCKILY for us, this website is devoted to the car enthusiast and NOT POLITICS (although all opinions are welcomed)

[SuperSport]

Everyone hold on tight for four more years of................................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........................................nothing
:( :mad:

[Sieg]

Oh..........I know!

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/430635_3546827964201_1310749222_n.jpg

[Vince@Meanstreets]

didn't you guys vote? I think Al might be having issues down loading pictures. LOL

[Streetking]

First time in a long while I have actually woke up pissed off...

What the hell are some people thinking? All I remember is seeing that lady on CNN saying" Vote for Obama, he gave me a free cell phone"....

[Bryce]

Do we get car part stamps now.

[takid455]

How can a citizen become an 'illegal'? Seems life would be handed to me, it fact encourage to do nothing and have luxuries too.

This simple proves smart people are out smarted by idiots in large groups. At least house is Rep bias and senate is closely balanced somewhat.

Interesting to see the majority of the country (land wise) voted red. Just happens that the EC points are low in those areas.

[DOOM]

First time in a long while I have actually woke up pissed off...

What the hell are some people thinking? All I remember is seeing that lady on CNN saying" Vote for Obama, he gave me a free cell phone"....

X2 Its amazing!!

[realcoray]

All I'm going to say is get a grip.

[Sieg]

Do we get car part stamps now.Probably, but they can only be applied to electric vehicles leased from Gubberment Motors. :(

[realcoray]

Interesting to see the majority of the country (land wise) voted red. Just happens that the EC points are low in those areas.

I fail to see how this even matters when the same person won the popular vote along with the EC tally, but uh yeah, the map looked mostly red why didn't my guy win!?

You may need to reevaluate who is smart if you believe that illegal immigrants live in luxury or have it easy.

[GregWeld]

I just hope Obama is smart enough to realize that he only got HALF the popular vote --- and that half the people in the USA DID NOT vote for him... and maybe he's smart enough to back away from the socialist Obama Phone anti anyone that's actually employed and making money stance.

I voted for him last time... because he ran on a moderate platform of bringing everyone together... well... that... and who could vote for McCain/Palin. But I've never seen a POTUS that's been more divisive and more anti 'success'.

[CornHusker4Life]

Kim (MCB)

Can I get my $5k back for the wheels/tires I just ordered. Someone somewhere needs MY MONEY to pay for groceries because they just went and bought the new Iphone.:rofl: Thanks.

[Al Moreno]

Kim (MCB)

Can I get my $5k back for the wheels/tires I just ordered. Someone somewhere needs MY MONEY to pay for groceries because they just went and bought the new Iphone.:rofl: Thanks.


/\/\/\/\ That's Freaking funny!!!!

Sorry guys for the misunderstanding on the tittle of this thread last night. I meant to say "SHOOT" not "SHOT". I guess coming from Cuba, I did feel like some "SHOT" me.

Greg the next four years are definitely going to qualify as the "BADDEST IN THE UNIVERSE" for sure, LOL!!!!

[GregWeld]

AL! YOU SCARED THE HELL OUT OF ME!

I really read that and re-read it - and though OMG someone shot Al!!! Why!! How bad is he? WOW!


Funny how much one little "o" changes the meaning huh?


:cheers:

[Garage Dog 65]

His missing 'o' is back in the white house and it's all his fault for not keeping track of it ...

:lol:


What amazed me was the republican projection stats were so, so far off. Several of them were calling for a landslide victory for Romney. How in the world could they be that far off....

Jim

[EBMC]

Wow, last night was such a buzz kill after SEMA and OUSCI :(. Just goes to show there are more freeloaders than we thought that aren't going to cut off that hand that feeds them.

[ironworks]

His missing 'o' is back in the white house and it's all his fault for not keeping track of it ...

:lol:


What amazed me was the republican projection stats were so, so far off. Several of them were calling for a landslide victory for Romney. How in the world could they be that far off....

Jim

I don't think any body thought Romney would get less votes then McCain. If all the people who voted for McCain would have voted for Romney yesterday we might not be having in this conversation. I know he would have gotten the popular vote, not sure if that would have gotten the electoral vote.

[Garage Dog 65]

I hear ya, I just look at the Dems projections and they were almost spot on. Their ground folks really seemed to get a better feel of the actual voter sentiments out there and converted those into pretty accurate stats for their campaign workers. Plus I heard over 10 million new voters in this session mostly went Dem too. That's a tough mountain to climb when ya got bad data...

[Garage Dog 65]

But hey, looks like the marijuana folks may have scored a big win...

So now we can all look forward to everyone in the nation being stoned dude !


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Jim

[Streetking]

I just hope Obama is smart enough to realize that he only got HALF the popular vote --- and that half the people in the USA DID NOT vote for him... and maybe he's smart enough to back away from the socialist Obama Phone anti anyone that's actually employed and making money stance.

I voted for him last time... because he ran on a moderate platform of bringing everyone together... well... that... and who could vote for McCain/Palin. But I've never seen a POTUS that's been more divisive and more anti 'success'.

I hope he is "smart enough", I'm just looking forward to paying for everyone's healthcare...

[jy211]

I just hope Obama is smart enough to realize that he only got HALF the popular vote --- and that half the people in the USA DID NOT vote for him... and maybe he's smart enough to back away from the socialist Obama Phone anti anyone that's actually employed and making money stance.

.

That's a sure lot of hope!

[Blake Foster]

Well, F*%@@*$ it I'm moving to the US!! i will let you know how bad it is.

[realcoray]

Wow, last night was such a buzz kill after SEMA and OUSCI :(. Just goes to show there are more freeloaders than we thought that aren't going to cut off that hand that feeds them.

Yeah, screw you people who lost their job because the economy went south (in 2008, you know before 'Obummer' became president) and had to be on unemployment, and lost their house and now are on food stamps working part time jobs. Sorry that nearly complete destruction of our economy couldn't be undone as quickly as it was demolished!

Also, old people, it's time you stop being so greedy wanting things like health care, and 500$ a month to live off of that you were promised. If you just die already it'd be great for the deficit, and for my ability to buy an awesome gold plated speedboat!

The same goes for the parents sending their kids off to college who can now keep their kids on their health insurance. Your kid getting in a car accident without insurance is what we call JOB CREATION. Bill collectors, and bankruptcy attorneys, may end up on the streets unless you do your part!

Military families, I know you sacrifice a lot, you know risking your life through six or more tours of duty, including in a stupid ass war that the previous president started for no good reason, but really, retirement after 20 years? Time to stop getting a free ride off of the taxes I paid for my ferrari and get to work.

Let's have some perspective here people.

[Spiffav8]

Well, F*%@@*$ it I'm moving to the US!! i will let you know how bad it is.

Yeah cause I want a bunch of foreigners who are moving to MY country to come here and tell me how good or bad MY country is.

Are you applying to become a U.S. Citizen? If not you have no vote and no say in how thing go or should go in MY UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. If not you are one of a long line of people who want to come to here and reap the rewards of all MY country has to offer, but not really be apart of what makes it work.

Blake you have been a good friend for a long time. I'd like to keep it that way. Sign up and join us or stay off the U.S. political stage. You don't see me bashing Canada's government or way of life. I expect the same respect in return.

[ironworks]

Yeah, screw you people who lost their job because the economy went south (in 2008, you know before 'Obummer' became president) and had to be on unemployment, and lost their house and now are on food stamps working part time jobs. Sorry that nearly complete destruction of our economy couldn't be undone as quickly as it was demolished!

Also, old people, it's time you stop being so greedy wanting things like health care, and 500$ a month to live off of that you were promised. If you just die already it'd be great for the deficit, and for my ability to buy an awesome gold plated speedboat!

The same goes for the parents sending their kids off to college who can now keep their kids on their health insurance. Your kid getting in a car accident without insurance is what we call JOB CREATION. Bill collectors, and bankruptcy attorneys, may end up on the streets unless you do your part!

Military families, I know you sacrifice a lot, you know risking your life through six or more tours of duty, including in a stupid ass war that the previous president started for no good reason, but really, retirement after 20 years? Time to stop getting a free ride off of the taxes I paid for my ferrari and get to work.

Let's have some perspective here people.

If you really think that is what's all about I will be over later to get some of your car parts you worked hard for to give them to the other guy who has not worked as hard as you have. It's called redistribution.

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/obama.jpg

We have been sold up river in a financial responsibility kinda way for a check we cannot not cash. What part of 4 TRILLION in further debt do you not understand? Nobody can cash that check, we need to stop spending money we do not have. At some point the gravy train has to stop. You can call it what you will and hang whatever kind of ornaments on it you want. We do not have the money to keep giving out all this gravy. Raising the taxes on only 1%'s will not solve the problem, The taxes for everyone who works are going to go up.

[Spiffav8]

Yeah, screw you people who lost their job because the economy went south (in 2008, you know before 'Obummer' became president) and had to be on unemployment, and lost their house and now are on food stamps working part time jobs. Sorry that nearly complete destruction of our economy couldn't be undone as quickly as it was demolished!

Also, old people, it's time you stop being so greedy wanting things like health care, and 500$ a month to live off of that you were promised. If you just die already it'd be great for the deficit, and for my ability to buy an awesome gold plated speedboat!

The same goes for the parents sending their kids off to college who can now keep their kids on their health insurance. Your kid getting in a car accident without insurance is what we call JOB CREATION. Bill collectors, and bankruptcy attorneys, may end up on the streets unless you do your part!

Military families, I know you sacrifice a lot, you know risking your life through six or more tours of duty, including in a stupid ass war that the previous president started for no good reason, but really, retirement after 20 years? Time to stop getting a free ride off of the taxes I paid for my ferrari and get to work.

Let's have some perspective here people.

Talk about needing some perspective! Who started the war in Afghanistan? Why are we there? Six or more tours? Really...who do you know that's done six tours?

Seriously I'd like to know where you're getting this information.

[Garage Dog 65]

Come on Curtis, Blake just wants to get away from the moose, mosquitos and bad head gear they make him wear .... let him in man !

:lol:

Jim

[Garage Dog 65]

If you really think that is what's all about I will be over later to get some of your car parts you worked hard for to give them to the other guy who has not worked as hard as you have. It's called redistribution.



Hah !!! I already cut it in half - so come get it !

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Jim

[GregWeld]

Come on Curtis, Blake just wants to get away from the moose, mosquitos and bad head gear they make him wear .... let him in man !

:lol:

Jim



I think it's great that he's moving his business here! He'll pay rent to someone that will pay income taxes. He'll pay taxes. He'll employ people that will also pay taxes. He'll buy "stuff" that supports him personally and "stuff" for his business... THAT is how the world goes 'round...

As a businessman - he has a "right" to be worried about that business environment regardless of his nationality. He's running a business not a popularity contest. Taxes - the business clement - the economy and where it's going - are all worries regardless of where you're doing that business. Blake is making a MAJOR investment to move his business here. He'll also make a major investment in housing choices etc. That's a boost for OUR economy. I hope it works out for him and all his employees!:cheers:

[Spiffav8]

Come on Curtis, Blake just wants to get away from the moose, mosquitos and bad head gear they make him wear .... let him in man !

:lol:

Jim

I have no problem with anyone coming to the the USA to create a better life. Note the use of 'create'. Blake, Rodger, Jay and the entire Speedtech crew are very hard working and respectable people. They have big hearts, care about the community and are giving on many levels. That is why they are my friends and that is the exact type of person I want to see move the the US and become apart of it.

People come to the United States for all kinds of reasons. Some stay only a few years, others a life time. There is much to offer here. If you come to the good ol US of A and plan to stay...become a one of us. If not, then don't stand around and tell me what I should or should not be doing or thankful for.

[Radlark]

I didn't know this board could be so political......this thread is VERY diverse and it makes me chuckle, sigh and go hmmm all at the same time.....

[Spiffav8]

I think it's great that he's moving his business here! He'll pay rent to someone that will pay income taxes. He'll pay taxes. He'll employ people that will also pay taxes. He'll buy "stuff" that supports him personally and "stuff" for his business... THAT is how the world goes 'round...

As a businessman - he has a "right" to be worried about that business environment regardless of his nationality. He's running a business not a popularity contest. Taxes - the business clement - the economy and where it's going - are all worries regardless of where you're doing that business. Blake is making a MAJOR investment to move his business here. He'll also make a major investment in housing choices etc. That's a boost for OUR economy. I hope it works out for him and all his employees!:cheers:

Greg,

You are 100% correct. I have supported Blake time and time again and I will continue to do so. I want to see him successful. However that does not give him or any other foreigner the right to tell me how 'good or bad' my country or way of life is. It's all a matter of perspective. We as American could be thinking that things totally suck, while someone from someplace else is thinking it's not to bad. I hear people in foreign countries saying that the U.S. should do this or that. What gives anyone that right to weigh in on something that they are not wiling to be become 100% of.

If you missed it....I am not saying this to just Blake. Again, he is my friend. I am saying this to anyone who wants to cut down or take cheap shots at my way of life had better be one of us. If not their opinion doesn't count.

[Vegas69]

It's water under the bridge folks, there ain't a damn thing you can do about it now. The people have spoken. I need to get to work to help pay my bills and a few others. Have a great day.:D

[EBMC]

Yeah, screw you people who lost their job because the economy went south (in 2008, you know before 'Obummer' became president) and had to be on unemployment, and lost their house and now are on food stamps working part time jobs. Sorry that nearly complete destruction of our economy couldn't be undone as quickly as it was demolished!

Also, old people, it's time you stop being so greedy wanting things like health care, and 500$ a month to live off of that you were promised. If you just die already it'd be great for the deficit, and for my ability to buy an awesome gold plated speedboat!

The same goes for the parents sending their kids off to college who can now keep their kids on their health insurance. Your kid getting in a car accident without insurance is what we call JOB CREATION. Bill collectors, and bankruptcy attorneys, may end up on the streets unless you do your part!

Military families, I know you sacrifice a lot, you know risking your life through six or more tours of duty, including in a stupid ass war that the previous president started for no good reason, but really, retirement after 20 years? Time to stop getting a free ride off of the taxes I paid for my ferrari and get to work.

Let's have some perspective here people.


Listen, I very rarely get political, everyone is entitled to their opinion but my point is I honestly think the current administration makes it entirely too easy for people to collect handouts, I see people taking advantage of the disability system, welfare,unemployment and other govt. services constantly. Yes, of course there are people who honestly need these services and I feel for them, but cant stand the freeloaders who take advantage and use up the limited resources set aside for the people that really need them.The freeloaders had alot at stake to reelect this president so they can keep the gravy train coming.

[OLDFLM]

Yeah, screw you people who lost their job because the economy went south (in 2008, you know before 'Obummer' became president) and had to be on unemployment, and lost their house and now are on food stamps working part time jobs. Sorry that nearly complete destruction of our economy couldn't be undone as quickly as it was demolished!

Also, old people, it's time you stop being so greedy wanting things like health care, and 500$ a month to live off of that you were promised. If you just die already it'd be great for the deficit, and for my ability to buy an awesome gold plated speedboat!

The same goes for the parents sending their kids off to college who can now keep their kids on their health insurance. Your kid getting in a car accident without insurance is what we call JOB CREATION. Bill collectors, and bankruptcy attorneys, may end up on the streets unless you do your part!

Military families, I know you sacrifice a lot, you know risking your life through six or more tours of duty, including in a stupid ass war that the previous president started for no good reason, but really, retirement after 20 years? Time to stop getting a free ride off of the taxes I paid for my ferrari and get to work.

Let's have some perspective here people.

I served this great country in uniform for over 25 years and was forced to retire due to defense budget cuts put into place by the current office. My health care IS NOT free (as promised) and never has been, in fact it's about to more than double and be higher than my current company's civilian coverage!

When I raised my right hand (all seven times) and solemnly swore to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic & bear true faith and allegiance to the same; I also swore to obey the orders of the President of the United States, whether I voted for him or not... and so help me God, I defended your right to the freedom of speech so that you could spout your parroted rhetoric on here.

Much like the ignorance that's prevailed, I see your comments for what they truly are... incitable, not insightful. Please take your comments above and post them somewhere where they would be better received. You have that right... and you're welcome!

I'm a proud, retired veteran, and I approved this message!:patriot:

[realcoray]

Talk about needing some perspective! Who started the war in Afghanistan? Why are we there? Six or more tours? Really...who do you know that's done six tours?

Seriously I'd like to know where you're getting this information.

I wasn't commenting about the validity of the war in afghanistan, the reason we're still there now is because of that whole iraq war which is what I was referring to.

As far as where I get my information, let's see, first hand knowledge? My 'free loader' dad gets retirement from the military, and served in vietnam. My 'free loader' sister gets survivorship benefits from her husband who was killed in Iraq. Many of his fellow soldiers are in afghanistan again, which is like their third deployment there, after at least 2 in Iraq. I'm not as familliar with pre-2006 deployments, but you can bet that the stryker brigades weren't just sitting on the sidelines.

[camcojb]

His missing 'o' is back in the white house and it's all his fault for not keeping track of it ...

:lol:


What amazed me was the republican projection stats were so, so far off. Several of them were calling for a landslide victory for Romney. How in the world could they be that far off....

Jimapparently the Pubs didn't show up to vote. ;) Obama was down 7 million votes as compared to 08, but the Pubs were down about 1.5 million. That was a surprise, as I thought the Pub side was quite energized to vote. I have no idea how they actually dropped over 2008.

[camcojb]

I think it's great that he's moving his business here! He'll pay rent to someone that will pay income taxes. He'll pay taxes. He'll employ people that will also pay taxes. He'll buy "stuff" that supports him personally and "stuff" for his business... THAT is how the world goes 'round...

As a businessman - he has a "right" to be worried about that business environment regardless of his nationality. He's running a business not a popularity contest. Taxes - the business clement - the economy and where it's going - are all worries regardless of where you're doing that business. Blake is making a MAJOR investment to move his business here. He'll also make a major investment in housing choices etc. That's a boost for OUR economy. I hope it works out for him and all his employees!:cheers:

That's exactly right. I had no idea Blake was moving his business. Maybe I'll put in an application. :D Of course I don't think my wife "does" snow............... :lol:

[Spiffav8]

I wasn't commenting about the validity of the war in afghanistan, the reason we're still there now is because of that whole iraq war which is what I was referring to.

As far as where I get my information, let's see, first hand knowledge? My 'free loader' dad gets retirement from the military, and served in vietnam. My 'free loader' sister gets survivorship benefits from her husband who was killed in Iraq. Many of his fellow soldiers are in afghanistan again, which is like their third deployment there, after at least 2 in Iraq. I'm not as familliar with pre-2006 deployments, but you can bet that the stryker brigades weren't just sitting on the sidelines.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but how is your father or sister a 'free loader'? That was paid for in blood and I am happy to fund those. I know A LOT of people who wear the uniform and very few of them have done more than four tours.

The restrictions put on our military by the current administration is prolonging the (current) war and putting our soldiers at greater risk. It would be easy to look back and slam Bush for the mistakes made with IRQ, but that won't move us in the right direction.

[Radlark]

It's water under the bridge folks, there ain't a damn thing you can do about it now. The people have spoken. I need to get to work to help pay my bills and a few others. Have a great day.:D

+1....

[FreddieCougar]

I play with cars as an escape, and Lat-G is part of that, this is the last place I want to have a discussion like this....I know it is a community, and we are all friends (well, most of us!) but do we have to pollute this place with political pissing contests? geez....

[EBMC]

I wasn't commenting about the validity of the war in afghanistan, the reason we're still there now is because of that whole iraq war which is what I was referring to.

As far as where I get my information, let's see, first hand knowledge? My 'free loader' dad gets retirement from the military, and served in vietnam. My 'free loader' sister gets survivorship benefits from her husband who was killed in Iraq. Many of his fellow soldiers are in afghanistan again, which is like their third deployment there, after at least 2 in Iraq. I'm not as familliar with pre-2006 deployments, but you can bet that the stryker brigades weren't just sitting on the sidelines.

I hope you dont think thats what my definition of a "free loader" is.

[EBMC]

I play with cars as an escape, and Lat-G is part of that, this is the last place I want to have a discussion like this....I know it is a community, and we are all friends (well, most of us!) but do we have to pollute this place with political pissing contests? geez....

I'm done, back to work!:cheers:

[Matt@BOS]

I just hope Obama is smart enough to realize that he only got HALF the popular vote --- and that half the people in the USA DID NOT vote for him... and maybe he's smart enough to back away from the socialist Obama Phone anti anyone that's actually employed and making money stance.

I voted for him last time... because he ran on a moderate platform of bringing everyone together... well... that... and who could vote for McCain/Palin. But I've never seen a POTUS that's been more divisive and more anti 'success'.

Just my two cents, but I think Greg is on to something here when he said he was looking for someone moderate the last time around. I think people were still looking for someone moderate this time around. Historically that is what usually plays a big factor in deciding the winner. I wish we could have seen what would have happened if Romney ran on a moderate ticket that didn't veer so far back and forth trying to appease everyone. I think the Romney campaign spent a lot of time pandering to the social conservatives, probably to try and ease their fears of voting for a mormon, which was probably a gigantic waste of time considering how likely social conservatives were to vote for Obama in the first place. Romney's record isn't representative of what a lot of people (left and right) probably figured they would be getting after seeing all of the campaigning done by both parties. I think I'll just cut my ramblings short right there before.

[Spiffav8]

Just my two cents, but I think Greg is on to something here when he said he was looking for someone moderate the last time around. I think people were still looking for someone moderate this time around. Historically that is what usually plays a big factor in deciding the winner. I wish we could have seen what would have happened if Romney ran on a moderate ticket that didn't veer so far back and forth trying to appease everyone. I think the Romney campaign spent a lot of time pandering to the social conservatives, probably to try and ease their fears of voting for a mormon, which was probably a gigantic waste of time considering how likely social conservatives were to vote for Obama in the first place. Romney's record isn't representative of what a lot of people (left and right) probably figured they would be getting after seeing all of the campaigning done by both parties. I think I'll just cut my ramblings short right there before.

Matt brings up a question that I truly and honestly don't understand and would appreciate someone explaining to me. What does Romney being a Mormon have anything to do with it? Personally I don't care about a persons religion, race or sexual preference. I respect that and that person, so long as they respect the same in return. Why is this such a big deal?

[ccracin]

What amazed me was the republican projection stats were so, so far off. Several of them were calling for a landslide victory for Romney. How in the world could they be that far off....



Remember the old saying, "It can always be worse"? If they missed this so drastically do you really want this team moving on to bigger an better things? :lol:

As I mentioned to you earlier Jim, I don't think the players matter much right now. I think the game has to change. Washington is more about which party wins than taking care of the country. I feel so far removed from anyone in Washington I don't feel like things would be any better if the election would have went the other way.

We need a redo. Send the congress home, re-write the rules. Term limits, congress has to live by the same rules we all do. Health Insurance, Retirement, etc. etc. When the people running the country are the people better decisions will be made. Government has become too big and is now uncontrollable. The most important bunch that don't want to work for a living are in Washington! I see why so much money is spent to get there. It is the ultimate golden parachute. Why would any of them vote to change that.

I'm not sure how we fix this, but neither party has the solution from what I have seen. JMO..........

Back to Cars! :lateral: :cheers:

[Sieg]

Well, F*%@@*$ it I'm moving to the US!! i will let you know how bad it is.

We the people will support you buddy! Congratulations. :thumbsup:

[Sieg]

If you really think that is what's all about I will be over later to get some of your car parts you worked hard for to give them to the other guy who has not worked as hard as you have. It's called redistribution.
Sign me up for the Bubbletop please but only if it comes with insurance, maintenance, fuel and the cell phone I'm entitled to. :unibrow:

[Ron in SoCal]

The most important bunch that don't want to work for a living are in Washington! I see why so much money is spent to get there. It is the ultimate golden parachute. Why would any of them vote to change that.



So True. Our Founding Fathers called it the 'Minority of the Opulent,' which is the same theory under which the Electoral College was underwritten.

[realcoray]

I hope you dont think thats what my definition of a "free loader" is.

It was sure Mitt Romneys idea of a freeloader, someone who doesn't pay taxes but receives benefits.

Look, no hard working person, regardless of their beliefs that people should get a free ride. I pay taxes and I don't want to see it wasted, and I don't want to have people dependant on my money in the long term. In the short term though, when plants are being closed so the jobs go overseas, when companies do massive layoffs despite record profits, I'm more than willing to help out my fellow americans.

The thing is, I'm pragmatic about things, I evaluate all of the angles and I can certainly see why some people would prefer Romney based on how various things impact them or their beliefs.

Additionally, the reality is that regardless of who wins, very little actually changes, so let's not be all dramatic about the impact of the election.

[Blake Foster]

Yeah cause I want a bunch of foreigners who are moving to MY country to come here and tell me how good or bad MY country is.

Are you applying to become a U.S. Citizen? If not you have no vote and no say in how thing go or should go in MY UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. If not you are one of a long line of people who want to come to here and reap the rewards of all MY country has to offer, but not really be apart of what makes it work.

Blake you have been a good friend for a long time. I'd like to keep it that way. Sign up and join us or stay off the U.S. political stage. You don't see me bashing Canada's government or way of life. I expect the same respect in return.

Wow. Buddy.
Actually your government Won't allow me to be a US citizen, they will Allow me to invest money start a business, pay taxes, Medicare, Social security, and all that WITH NO availbility to collect in the future, they mandate that we hire US citizens to manufacture products.
I have an opinion on who the President should be but don't think i have voiced it, as you are correct I have no say and will never have any say, and i'm ok with that.
Honestly if i really cared about the political landcsape i may have made a different descision, but that is not the reason for moving, it is to be closer to YOU!

[Blake Foster]

Perhaps my wording of "How Bad it is" came off wrong???? i was implying that it will be GOOD, or Better than my current situation.
i should have said.
I will let you knwo how GOOD it is................. i'm still moving Curtis!!
:cheers:

[Sieg]

Honestly if i really cared about the political landcsape i may have made a different descision, but that is not the reason for moving, it is to be closer to YOU! :thumbsup:

[realcoray]

Matt brings up a question that I truly and honestly don't understand and would appreciate someone explaining to me. What does Romney being a Mormon have anything to do with it? Personally I don't care about a persons religion, race or sexual preference. I respect that and that person, so long as they respect the same in return. Why is this such a big deal?

I agree but to some people it was considered an issue. I mean it wasn't really that long ago when a Catholic in the white house was ground breaking, and we haven't had a jewish president.

I agree with Matt in that a moderate Mitt Romney could have won the election. He tried hard to swing towards the middle near the end but how is anyone supposed to believe someone who shifts so wildly?

Everyone agrees that politicians will say anything to be elected, but that doesn't mean that people will accept it and vote for you anyways. I can certainly see a lot of people voting for Obama simply because it's clearer what you will get than with Romney who has been all over the place.

Back before the last election I thought McCain was great, but then to try to get elected he had to do a lot of things that I don't think were him and I lost a lot of respect for him.

If as they say America is middle-right, who is going to win more and more elections, a party that is far right, or one that is middle-left?

[ccracin]

So True. Our Founding Fathers called it the 'Minority of the Opulent,' which is the same theory under which the Electoral College was underwritten.

Yep Ron, the quote is

"the primary function of government is to protect the minority of the opulent from the majority of the poor." - James Madison

I believe this was something he said during the Constitutional Convention. This pretty much to me is what Washington is doing. Both Parties. The majority truly has no say in who goes to Washington to represent us. We can only choose from those the parties tell us we can choose from. Very depressing.

This shows you the power of our hobby. While I'm in the garage cutting and hacking on metal, I can forget all about this!

[OLDFLM]

................. i'm still moving Curtis!!
:cheers:

Dang! Just when I was about to ask you if you needed a good HR Manager in Canada Blake! LOL

[Spiffav8]

Perhaps my wording of "How Bad it is" came off wrong???? i was implying that it will be GOOD, or Better than my current situation.
i should have said.
I will let you knwo how GOOD it is................. i'm still moving Curtis!!
:cheers:

Well hurry the "F" up already. We need good people like you.

[HAULNSS]

“Once the monkeys learn they can vote themselves bananas, they’ll never climb another tree.”
― Robert Heinlein


“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”
― Thomas Jefferson


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
― Edward R. Murrow


“One of the penalties of refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.”
― Plato


“The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”
― Thomas Jefferson


“One thing is clear: The Founding Fathers never intended a nation where citizens would pay nearly half of everything they earn to the government.”
― Ron Paul


“As government expands, liberty contracts.”
― Ronald Reagan


“The short memories of the American voters is what keeps our politicians in office.”
― Will Rogers



;)

Randy

[SuperSport]

If you come to the good ol US of A and plan to stay...become a one of us.

What is one of us?
This is America, the melting pot. The most diverse country in the world.

Do you mean become a U.S. citizen?

[Spiffav8]

What is one of us?
This is America, the melting pot. The most diverse country in the world.

Do you mean become a U.S. citizen?

Yes that what I meant.

[onevoice]

It was sure Mitt Romneys idea of a freeloader, someone who doesn't pay taxes but receives benefits.



This amount of ignorance is what made the election. Take a quote, bend it around to what no thinking person would believe, then make it a slogan and the sheeple will vote based on it.

I swear, most of the people in this country are too stupid to vote.

[Bryan O]

Big difference between citizen and American. Not the same thing. All are citizens. Not all are Americans.

[preston]

I'm on board with a previous comment - of course I've been disappointed by an election before, but this is the first time I felt physically sick.

with kids, my shop time STARTS at 9:00pm, so I poured a little bit more bourbon than usual and went outside and started shaping metal and tacking it in.

[mad68rs]

Big difference between citizen and American. Not the same thing. All are citizens. Not all are Americans.

I think I know what you mean by this. +1

[Spiffav8]

Big difference between citizen and American. Not the same thing. All are citizens. Not all are Americans.

Well put. I like it.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Blake Foster]

That's exactly right. I had no idea Blake was moving his business. Maybe I'll put in an application. :D Of course I don't think my wife "does" snow............... :lol:

We will be looking for QUALIFIED employees.......................:thumbsup:
lmao sorry been a few late nights packing this week.

[tones2SS]

It's a sad, sad day for America.
4 more years of adding to the OVERWHELMING debt, giving money to the bloodsuckers/illegals, bowing down to dictators/kings and putting America on the back burner. I'm sick!

[coolwelder62]

I woke up this morning feeling so sick.I am no longer HUNGRY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[camcojb]

We will be looking for QUALIFIED employees.......................:thumbsup:
lmao sorry been a few late nights packing this week.

yeah, I don't qualify for much other than some AARP discounts........... :lol:

[Flash68]

I woke up this morning feeling so sick.I am no longer HUNGRY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that's a headline right there. :thumbsup:

[57hemicuda]

I woke up feeling sorry for our new president, he inherited quite a f'ing mess.lol
As long as we have 48% pulling the wagon, and 52% in the wagon, we are never going to fix this mess. Where is the insentive to come out and pull, it just makes the 48% want to climb aboard and look for our freebies. What happened to work ethic, and pride for a hard days work, its the fall of Rome.

Ron

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I served this great country in uniform for over 25 years and was forced to retire due to defense budget cuts put into place by the current office. My health care IS NOT free (as promised) and never has been, in fact it's about to more than double and be higher than my current company's civilian coverage!

When I raised my right hand (all seven times) and solemnly swore to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic & bear true faith and allegiance to the same; I also swore to obey the orders of the President of the United States, whether I voted for him or not... and so help me God, I defended your right to the freedom of speech so that you could spout your parroted rhetoric on here.

Much like the ignorance that's prevailed, I see your comments for what they truly are... incitable, not insightful. Please take your comments above and post them somewhere where they would be better received. You have that right... and you're welcome!

I'm a proud, retired veteran, and I approved this message!:patriot:

I was going to put in my 2 cents but you hit it on the effin head sir!!!!

It would be a smart move for Blake to move operations to the country that buys 60% of his products. Catipillar and Chrysler/Fiat did the same thing in China.

[garickman]

I woke up this morning feeling so sick.I am no longer HUNGRY!!!!!!!!!!!!

I woke up this morning feeling exhausted!! But that's because I had a dream that I was a muffler!:lol: :lol: :lol:

[SuperSport]

Big difference between citizen and American. Not the same thing. All are citizens. Not all are Americans.

Do Americans support their commander in chief regardless of political party?

[WSSix]

HELL NO!



Note* I was just going to say NO! but the bot said it was too short of a reply :D

[Shmoov69]

Wow! 9 pages!! Couple things to add.
1. I've been told by a friend of mine (Mel Hancock, look him up!) that was a senator way back that as soon as they get to Washington, they work on getting reelected, NOTHING else. I do believe he was the exception.
2. The only "hope" we have is that the Mayans were right!! LOL!!
3. The REAL issue is that the USA has a spiritual problem, meaning that all morals and values and "standards" have been lost. It is "every man for himself" so to speak. The only thing it takes for evil to prevail is for the good to do nothing. Evil will do what it does best if allowed....bad things.
4. 1 Samuel 8:5-22 says a lot. Since we're talking politics, might as well talk religion!! LOL!!:cheers:
5. We POSSIBLY made history last night tho! We were there when the USA had its last elected president!! Oh, and the first dictator of the USSA!! Dooh!!!

Oh, and thanks for keeping this open Jody. I assume it's a "special" just because of the current circumstance.

[GregWeld]

Sign me up for the Bubbletop please but only if it comes with insurance, maintenance, fuel and the cell phone I'm entitled to. :unibrow:

DONE!


:lol:

[GregWeld]

Do Americans support their commander in chief regardless of political party?



Yes -- the country has cast it's vote....

I think Americans have always been like this. We can bitch and gripe and disagree.... but we still RESPECT.

[Vegas69]

I disagree with the notion that the people of this country have lost their morals and values. I've found that if you give people a chance, most are good. Unfortunately, with modern times there are to many outlets for negative news to be shoe horned into your brain. We all need to spend a little more time concentrating on improving our ourselves and our own lives, not worrying about somebody on welfare. There ain't a damn thing I can do about it and I wouldn't want to trade them places.

[Mkelcy]

Yes -- the country has cast it's vote....

I think Americans have always been like this. We can bitch and gripe and disagree.... but we still RESPECT.

This is utter tripe based on the Republican effort to deligitimize this President for the last 4 years.

Greg, you just don't seem this unaware. What's up?

[camcojb]

Oh, and thanks for keeping this open Jody. I assume it's a "special" just because of the current circumstance.

I am quite confident it'll go sideways at some point. :yes:

[Shmoov69]

I am quite confident it'll go sideways at some point. :yes:

LOL!! So true!! You do a good job tho man!!:thumbsup:

[96z28ss]

we need to make some changes to our government. If we want to make the government better than we need a damn reorg.
We elected 2 dead people into office. This is crazy. Florida Democrat Earl K. Wood and Alabama Republican Charles Beasley. Here is what really pisses me off.
Taken from article.
"Wood died on Oct. 15 from natural causes at age 96, during his campaign for a 12th term as Orange County Tax Collector in Orlando, Fla.

Criticized for rarely coming into the office while collecting a $150,000 salary and $90,000 pension.

Wood's wide name recognition after almost half a century in office scared off several serious contenders. His name remained on the ballot and he took 56 percent of the votes to 44 percent for a Republican who promised to eliminate the office altogether if elected.

Are you f-ing kidding me. A salary and a pension. Thats crazy.
We need term limits and You should be out at 65.

[Beegs]

Holy $%#..... Great thread! Really wish there was a way to "like" the comments, there are many, many good ones.

My 12 year old son actually broke down and cried...it really struck me. I have always said to him, good ideas come from both sides and have let him make up his own mind, but he sees the way things are going.

One thing I love doing with Obama backers when a political conversation is going nowhere, I ask: "With a straight face, tell me, would you rather have Obama or Romney balance your checkbook?" Works EVERY time, they just laugh it off because they cannot defend it.

[hifi875]

The future scares me. So much has changed in the last 4 years, and not for the better.

[MarkM66]

My company BC/BS healthcare double from last year to this year. I guess the increase is to buy coverage for another family. :mad:

[hifi875]

The makers will have more taken while the takers will make more. Exactly what obummer wants so that the takers will be more dependent on government

[67XR7]

I already had a cell phone , So I voted Romney.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio

[Bryan O]

Who is John Galt? :_paranoid

[realcoray]

The future scares me. So much has changed in the last 4 years, and not for the better.

My question is what has changed that is something the president himself has done?

People forget that 4 years ago at this time, hundreds of thousands of people were losing their jobs, unemployment had gone up 40% in 2008, from 5 to 7.3%. Lots of people lost their jobs, their homes and/or their businesses.

I agree that all sucked, and things aren't all fixed now. We just about back to the same unemployment rate as when Obama took office, and the economy is adding jobs.

It's unrealistic to blame Obama for the economy being terrible, primarily because it was all sorts of messed up before he was even elected.

At the same time, it's not a reasonable assessment to give him much credit for things improving either. Not much has actually happened in washington dc the last four years, and things improving is more about the resilience of americans than it is anything that any one person or all of d.c. has done.

My point is this, let's not be all hyperbolic and dramatic over the election.

[Sieg]

Why do you feel so obligated to defend politicians?

[Radlark]

Saw this and I thought it was funny..I personally don't do the "discuss politics" thing because everyone is entitled to THIER opinion...again I just thought it was funny no matter which way I voted.....

[ironworks]

It's unrealistic to blame Obama for the economy being terrible, primarily because it was all sorts of messed up before he was even elected.



The man said in his campaign that he would fix it in his first term. He did not.

Do you remember all that chatter about cutting the debt, and unemployment being much lower then it is now? ETC

Just google the words "2008 campaign promises". The video list is pretty long.

Everything that happened was opposite of what he promised for a job he campaigned to get.

[hifi875]

My question is what has changed that is something the president himself has done?

People forget that 4 years ago at this time, hundreds of thousands of people were losing their jobs, unemployment had gone up 40% in 2008, from 5 to 7.3%. Lots of people lost their jobs, their homes and/or their businesses.

I agree that all sucked, and things aren't all fixed now. We just about back to the same unemployment rate as when Obama took office, and the economy is adding jobs.

It's unrealistic to blame Obama for the economy being terrible, primarily because it was all sorts of messed up before he was even elected.

At the same time, it's not a reasonable assessment to give him much credit for things improving either. Not much has actually happened in washington dc the last four years, and things improving is more about the resilience of americans than it is anything that any one person or all of d.c. has done.

My point is this, let's not be all hyperbolic and dramatic over the election.

he hasn't done a single thing to improve the so called nightmare that he "inherited". and the outlook since then hasn't changed. he is a divider. nothing changed, he took class warfare to the next level. he is not a friend of business. his foreign policy is ridiculous. so what he killed bin laden. bin laden was powerless. he has done nothing to give any glimmer of hope on any front, that any of our problem will be solved.

[GregWeld]

This is utter tripe based on the Republican effort to deligitimize this President for the last 4 years.

Greg, you just don't seem this unaware. What's up?



Everybody went to work the day after the election -- nobody went on strike -- the military didn't park tanks in the public square...

Let's not take the efforts of a few dip wads like Donald Trump, who can't give up on the birther issue, as being indicative of "the man in the street". I think the average person understands an election in the U.S. We may not like it - we may not agree... but HE won, and HE is the POTUS. I have to respect that, and move forward.

[hifi875]

Everybody went to work the day after the election -- nobody went on strike -- the military didn't park tanks in the public square...

Let's not take the efforts of a few dip wads like Donald Trump, who can't give up on the birther issue, as being indicative of "the man in the street". I think the average person understands an election in the U.S. We may not like it - we may not agree... but HE won, and HE is the POTUS. I have to respect that, and move forward.

True, I don't like it, but thats life. Adjust and move on. The sun will come up in the morning and go down in the afternoon. I'm enjoying not watching any news shows and getting back to reality.

[Bryan O]

New word:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c299/boates/image001.jpg

[GregWeld]

^^^ I've never seen anything that so perfectly sums it up!

[Bucketlist2012]

I have lived through many an Election...

I don't have to like the results, and I kinda know what is coming, but I do know that the people that are takers have a glass ceiling...I do not..

The takers will take but they can only take so much, hence the glass ceiling..

The makers can make more because there is no glass ceiling...we can achieve more..Will it be tougher ? Sure it will..But will we rise above it and still have fun...Yep....

Many that voted for More taxes, ect...are the one's that can least afford more sales tax, higher food costs and Gasoline...But yet they thought they were going to punish the rich....Strange world we live in.

[57hemicuda]

Don't know how many of you have seen the movie Idiocracy, but it pretty much sums it up.

[Spiffav8]

Don't know how many of you have seen the movie Idiocracy, but it pretty much sums it up.

Yes..yes it does.

[Shmoov69]

In a scary way, it really does!! I've told many people that it is an ignorant movie but the "reality" of it is... Well... Real!!

[WSSix]

My question is what has changed that is something the president himself has done?

People forget that 4 years ago at this time, hundreds of thousands of people were losing their jobs, unemployment had gone up 40% in 2008, from 5 to 7.3%. Lots of people lost their jobs, their homes and/or their businesses.

I agree that all sucked, and things aren't all fixed now. We just about back to the same unemployment rate as when Obama took office, and the economy is adding jobs.

It's unrealistic to blame Obama for the economy being terrible, primarily because it was all sorts of messed up before he was even elected.

At the same time, it's not a reasonable assessment to give him much credit for things improving either. Not much has actually happened in washington dc the last four years, and things improving is more about the resilience of americans than it is anything that any one person or all of d.c. has done.

My point is this, let's not be all hyperbolic and dramatic over the election.

In general, what I am bothered by the most with Obama and the people who support them are their attitudes. I'm honestly not worried about what he can really do as President, though all of his executive orders are very disturbing from a power grab perspective, because he is constrained. It's just like the people who voted against Romney because he is pro-life. They some how seem to think he had the power to overturn Roe v Wade which is nonsense. Yet, people voted against him for that very reason. So realizing Romney doesn't have that power but turning around and thinking Obama has more power to magically snap his fingers to make things happen doesn't add up.

What does add up though, is the attitude Obama preachers and shows regularly. His actions or lack there of in many cases show what type of person he truly is regardless of what he says. It's the reason so many people where duped in 08 like Greg mentioned. He talked a good talk. Filled people with a lot of good ideas that even I agreed with. Nothing he had done up to that point in his political career agreed with the words and ideas he was pushing forth and nothing he did after being elected agreed either. For someone who claims to not be engaging in class warfare, he sure does use a lot of us and them in reference to American citizens in his speeches. He also has no problems laying blame or targeting legislation towards a select group of people whom have done nothing illegal or immoral. Yet, they are some how to blame or should be punished by having their legally earned wealth confiscated in the name of fairness or recovery? He is more like G W Bush than different but no one is crying war criminal or impeachment when he did the exact same things as Bush and then some.

The fact that so many American citizens support his actions and agree with those actions is what bothers me. They treat it like a football game cheering on their team as if there are no real implications as to what is going on in DC.

He is no leader and certainly not interested in bringing people together.

[Revved]

Unfortunately we are in for another 4 years of slow slide into oblivion and God only knows how long to dig out of the rediculous debt accumulating. Is Obama a bad guy? probably not. Did he have a clue what he was getting into 4 years ago? Definately Not. Is he arrogant and confrontational? Anybody who watched the debates can answer that. Does he have the skills to guide this country out of the muck our economy is in? 4 years +4 trillion in debt tells me no. His comments about cheap gas showed a weak economy when he took office and now that we have expensive gas things are getting better... ?!?!?!? 'nuff said?

Put the religion thing aside. Put the race cards aside. Romney has proven skills and the background to run our economy and the country. If the guy was given the office there was a much higher probability that the economy would have gotten back on track and then everyone on the forums could have bitched about his social policies.... or maybe not.. they would have been busy getting back to work. Well at least the obamaphone lady would have been bitching aout it. I'm still lost at when our country started demonizing people that are successful.. I'm pretty sure that was somewhere in the American Dream. But I didn't get the AACORN Occupy Everything memo either...

Real world though... How many of you have gotten the phone call from your high end clients that projects are being "delayed" or are dropping prices on high end cars to move them before the end of the year? What these Obama-ites don't realize is that many industries like ours and the economy as a whole depend on this 2% (that owns businesses, runs businesses, invest in businesses, spend money on luxury items) feeling comfortable enough to spend money. They don't spend money, we don't make money, we don't have money to spend, we don't have money to hire people or buy equipment, and then economy slows. I had plans to hire for projects slated to start in January but in the last two days I've had 2 out of 3 projects put off "indefinately" waiting to see the results of this "financial cliff." I have another client that turned down an offer on his car two weeks ago then called me back yesterday to do the deal just because he is cleaning house after the election worried about what is coming next year. Scared money doesn't make money... if businesses are afraid to spend money they arent going to... and Obama's fiscal policies scare people with money to spend. I'm going on year #5 now going solo and I've never been this uncertain of the future.

[Shmoov69]

I don't know about y'all, but I have NEVER been given a job by a poor man. Crazy ain't it!!?!
In construction, projects have "been on hold" till after the election. Well, now they are on hold till it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, not just when it "could" be a good time.

[WSSix]

Real world though... How many of you have gotten the phone call from your high end clients that projects are being "delayed" or are dropping prices on high end cars to move them before the end of the year? What these Obama-ites don't realize is that many industries like ours and the economy as a whole depend on this 2% (that owns businesses, runs businesses, invest in businesses, spend money on luxury items) feeling comfortable enough to spend money. They don't spend money, we don't make money, we don't have money to spend, we don't have money to hire people or buy equipment, and then economy slows. I had plans to hire for projects slated to start in January but in the last two days I've had 2 out of 3 projects put off "indefinately" waiting to see the results of this "financial cliff." I have another client that turned down an offer on his car two weeks ago then called me back yesterday to do the deal just because he is cleaning house after the election worried about what is coming next year. Scared money doesn't make money... if businesses are afraid to spend money they arent going to... and Obama's fiscal policies scare people with money to spend. I'm going on year #5 now going solo and I've never been this uncertain of the future.

What's this trickle down economy talk you're spewing? Everyone knows that is nonsense. You're just trying to protect the rich so they can continue to screw over the rest of us :rolleyes:

How or why people don't understand that if you allow people to keep their money, instead of seizing it through taxation, they will spend it on their own is beyond me. I guess they think trickle down economy means trickle down prosperity or that it's some how guaranteed they will be better off without actually having to get out there and make it happen for themselves. Not only that but to simply be in this hobby, which involves purely discretionary money and spending, and still claim that trickle down economics doesn't work or doesn't exist is mind blowing.

To add to Greg's comments earlier about the taxes targeted directly at yachts. I grew up in Savannah, GA. Technically, outside of it on the islands but the address was Savannah. I remember years of driving into Savannah proper and passing through Thunderbolt, GA and seeing the yachts and sailboats being built during the 80s. I didn't find out until the 90s when I was a teenager that the reason the sailboats and yachts suddenly disappeared and the company went bankrupt was because the government decided to tax people who dared to want to buy one. You may think a fancy boat is unnecessary and maybe even vulgar given that there are people who can't even afford a simple car, but you have no right to punish someone who wants to buy one with their legally earned money. It's also laughable if you claim to care about the little guy when you support legislation that results in that little guy losing his job simply because he worked at a business you deemed unnecessary.

My post isn't directed at anyone specific. Please don't take it that way. I'm just simply venting about interference in the economy by government morons who claim to know what's best for me and you. Or, who try to honestly claim the most basic and obvious truths don't exist or work.

[57hemicuda]

I did love the listening to the radio on Wed. when the stock market tanked. They actualy said "due to some turmoil in Europe, the stock market is down 300 points", not even mentioning the election. Its very scary how detatched the press has become from reality, and how the current Pres. can do no wrong. Its no longer news, its propiganda, I hope history can't repeat itself.

Most of us, give or take, are probably finantially as far along in life as we will go. Its our kids and grand kids that won't have the same oportunities for success that we had. How did we get here?

[Eleanor's Nemesis]

What's this trickle down economy talk you're spewing? Everyone knows that is nonsense. You're just trying to protect the rich so they can continue to screw over the rest of us :rolleyes:

How or why people don't understand that if you allow people to keep their money, instead of seizing it through taxation, they will spend it on their own is beyond me. I guess they think trickle down economy means trickle down prosperity or that it's some how guaranteed they will be better off without actually having to get out there and make it happen for themselves. Not only that but to simply be in this hobby, which involves purely discretionary money and spending, and still claim that trickle down economics doesn't work or doesn't exist is mind blowing.

To add to Greg's comments earlier about the taxes targeted directly at yachts. I grew up in Savannah, GA. Technically, outside of it on the islands but the address was Savannah. I remember years of driving into Savannah proper and passing through Thunderbolt, GA and seeing the yachts and sailboats being built during the 80s. I didn't find out until the 90s when I was a teenager that the reason the sailboats and yachts suddenly disappeared and the company went bankrupt was because the government decided to tax people who dared to want to buy one. You may think a fancy boat is unnecessary and maybe even vulgar given that there are people who can't even afford a simple car, but you have no right to punish someone who wants to buy one with their legally earned money. It's also laughable if you claim to care about the little guy when you support legislation that results in that little guy losing his job simply because he worked at a business you deemed unnecessary.

My post isn't directed at anyone specific. Please don't take it that way. I'm just simply venting about interference in the economy by government morons who claim to know what's best for me and you. Or, who try to honestly claim the most basic and obvious truths don't exist or work.

I've been sayng this, essentially, for a very long time. It's comforting to see someone else say it too.

I think the yacht dealio you are talking about involved the "Luxury Tax" in the early 1990's. I remember Ted Kennedy was a vociferous proponet of the Luxury Tax and it killed the yacht building business in New England just like it did in other parts of the country.

[Beegs]

It's quite simple, with this election we have reached the tipping point of more takers than makers. End of story.

[Revved]

What's this trickle down economy talk you're spewing? Everyone knows that is nonsense. You're just trying to protect the rich so they can continue to screw over the rest of us :rolleyes:

How or why people don't understand that if you allow people to keep their money, instead of seizing it through taxation, they will spend it on their own is beyond me. I guess they think trickle down economy means trickle down prosperity or that it's some how guaranteed they will be better off without actually having to get out there and make it happen for themselves. Not only that but to simply be in this hobby, which involves purely discretionary money and spending, and still claim that trickle down economics doesn't work or doesn't exist is mind blowing.

To add to Greg's comments earlier about the taxes targeted directly at yachts. I grew up in Savannah, GA. Technically, outside of it on the islands but the address was Savannah. I remember years of driving into Savannah proper and passing through Thunderbolt, GA and seeing the yachts and sailboats being built during the 80s. I didn't find out until the 90s when I was a teenager that the reason the sailboats and yachts suddenly disappeared and the company went bankrupt was because the government decided to tax people who dared to want to buy one. You may think a fancy boat is unnecessary and maybe even vulgar given that there are people who can't even afford a simple car, but you have no right to punish someone who wants to buy one with their legally earned money. It's also laughable if you claim to care about the little guy when you support legislation that results in that little guy losing his job simply because he worked at a business you deemed unnecessary.

My post isn't directed at anyone specific. Please don't take it that way. I'm just simply venting about interference in the economy by government morons who claim to know what's best for me and you. Or, who try to honestly claim the most basic and obvious truths don't exist or work.

Do you not see that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth here? In one paragraph you accuse me of protecting the rich so they can "continue to screw us" but in another paragraph you are defending the rights of guys building yahts saying the government has no right to punish someone who wants to buy one with their legally earned money. Which is exactly what is happening with this administration targeting high earners in this country. I, and many others here, are the guys building the yahts who's businesses are being strained because our primary clientele is afraid to spend their legally earned money not knowing what else is coming down the pipeline. Is it going to last forever... no. Are people going to start buying yahts again... yes. But in the mean time it is the small businesses that take the hit... again. The longer it keeps up the more likely we are to end up in the bread line.

[GregWeld]

The fact that so many American citizens support his actions and agree with those actions is what bothers me.


Well.... not really that many Americans.... he only got HALF the popular vote. So that doesn't show me much support.

I look at this as a "technical win" rather than a mandated popular "go for it and change whatever you want" win.

What EVERYONE needs to watch for is that their Representative and the Senators from their area gets a strong message regarding how they vote!

That's FAR FAR more important that what the POTUS "wants".

[Bucketlist2012]

I did love the listening to the radio on Wed. when the stock market tanked. They actualy said "due to some turmoil in Europe, the stock market is down 300 points", not even mentioning the election. Its very scary how detatched the press has become from reality, and how the current Pres. can do no wrong. Its no longer news, its propiganda, I hope history can't repeat itself.

Most of us, give or take, are probably finantially as far along in life as we will go. Its our kids and grand kids that won't have the same oportunities for success that we had. How did we get here?

When the government controls the press, they control the truth...

[GregWeld]

I thought of something while working out this morning....



Remember a famous DEMOCRAT'S speech....


"ASK NOT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU... BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY".



Somehow they've managed to reverse that... and to me that's where the failure is.

[Sieg]

"ASK NOT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU... BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY".

Somehow they've managed to reverse that... and to me that's where the failure is.
:hail:

They're erasing the fundamental ethics and pride on which this country was founded.

[realcoray]

I thought of something while working out this morning....

Remember a famous DEMOCRAT'S speech....

"ASK NOT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU... BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY".

Somehow they've managed to reverse that... and to me that's where the failure is.

I'm not sure who they are that you're talking about, I presume democrats, and it isn't clear to me where any politician implies that people should be 'takers'.

Is our state filled with takers Greg? People who demand the government do things for them? It seems like we have some of the largest companies in the world, with hundreds of thousands of the most educated and most skilled people, building software and planes and what not. Somehow though republicans have a hard time winning in these areas where all of the Boeing and Microsoft takers are!

As far as the numerous people questioning the intelligence of takers, or the awesome reference to idiocracy (I'd so vote for president camacho), the only commentary I'd have is for you to sort the states by what percentage of their residents have a college degree, and look at what state voted for what candidate. And no, I don't correlate degree with intelligence, but you don't spend all that money to go to college and then sit on welfare right? By definition you're a maker and not a lazy mooch. For the record I didn't go to college, and I am lazy but I'd be considered a maker.

Lastly, just on the business side I read this great article just now about, well to me how much sears sucks but it had an awesome segment in it:

Article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49758073/ns/business-us_business/#__utma=14933801.1185918768.1342445609.1352469021. 1352481316.149&__utmb=14933801.4.9.1352481422233&__utmc=14933801&__utmx=-&__utmz=14933801.1351017078.135.41.utmcsr=msn.com|u tmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/&__utmv=14933801.|8=Earned%20By=msnbc%7Ccover=1^12= Landing%20Content=Mixed=1^13=Landing%20Hostname=ww w.nbcnews.com=1^30=Visit%20Type%20to%20Content=Ear ned%20to%20Mixed=1&__utmk=81901590)

Long story short, guy makes good wrench in the USA, sells through sears. At some point sears doesn't agree to pay the price and turns around and has it manufactured overseas. It sounds like this is standard procedure for sears at this point. Guy sues sears but has to lay off 31 people as a result of all of this.

Company that makes the knock offs and other craftsman tools is being bought... by Bain capital.

My point is merely that while I can see the value in a president having business experience, not all business experience rates as a positive to me.

The sponsors here, making things in the united states, supporting american workers, defying all business logic to offshore their items and make higher profits, that is valuable to me, that's the type of experience that I'd vote for. The non sponsors who chronically knock off and offshore items the sponsors make.. not so much.

[bdahlg68]

Saw or heard something that described the return on stimulus vs. return on tax cuts...... basically showed stimulus had a higher return even though it would cause an "entitlement" society. Has anyone else heard or seen an article like this??? Trying to find it....

[GrabberGT]

Saw or heard something that described the return on stimulus vs. return on tax cuts...... basically showed stimulus had a higher return even though it would cause an "entitlement" society. Has anyone else heard or seen an article like this??? Trying to find it....


http://www.boston.com/news/nation/2012/11/09/fiscal-cliff-impasse-tax-rates-big-hurdle/870UnBFSdnwq50LfsOFSQP/story.html

[57hemicuda]

Here in lies the problem, the Bain Capital boogie man, the Halliburton boogie man, what villain company are we going to look for next, it really discounts any arguement in my opinion. If the feds and state governments were to make this place more buisness freindly, maybe all these companies wouldn't look elsewhere. The first canidate that says he will give companies 100% tax breaks for anyone who manufactures in the states, foreign or domestic, will get my vote. The extra employment leading to income taxes, and removing people from welfare roles, I beleive would more then cover the corporate taxes lost.

The class envy thing is only going to work for so long, once the dept overwhelms us, all treasure will be gone anyway.

[realcoray]

Saw or heard something that described the return on stimulus vs. return on tax cuts...... basically showed stimulus had a higher return even though it would cause an "entitlement" society. Has anyone else heard or seen an article like this??? Trying to find it....

I think the return on stimulus would be better simply because it's more direct. If you remember the original bush era stimulus where we all got checks in the mail the explicit goal was that you go out and spend that money. The last stimulus was slightly more abstract in that it was the government basically spending it, but with the same idea, that money in = jobs out, which in turn of course the government taxes their incomes netting some return.

The funny part about tax cuts to me, along with the discussion here about luxury boats is that rich people as a group aren't rich because they are buying boats all the time or really, spending all their money. Buying boats and ferraris in bulk is how rich people become poor people (see: Professional Athletes).

If you give me a tax cut, there certainly is a chance that I'd spend it, but there's a near equal chance that I'll do something that has 0 economic affect like putting it into my savings account. If I made twice as much, that wouldn't change and I can't imagine Greg for example getting a tax cut and then going and blowing it on stuff. On an absolute basis rich people spend more than poor people, but as a percentage, I'm going to say that poor people spend more, out of necessity or in some cases out of stupidity (aka, that's why they are poor).

That isn't me saying take from the rich savers to give to the poor spenders, but just saying that a 1$ tax cut for people even moderately successful people, is probably less in terms of trickle down than some people want to believe.

[WSSix]

Do you not see that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth here? In one paragraph you accuse me of protecting the rich so they can "continue to screw us" but in another paragraph you are defending the rights of guys building yahts saying the government has no right to punish someone who wants to buy one with their legally earned money. Which is exactly what is happening with this administration targeting high earners in this country. I, and many others here, are the guys building the yahts who's businesses are being strained because our primary clientele is afraid to spend their legally earned money not knowing what else is coming down the pipeline. Is it going to last forever... no. Are people going to start buying yahts again... yes. But in the mean time it is the small businesses that take the hit... again. The longer it keeps up the more likely we are to end up in the bread line.

I guess I should have put sarcasm in brackets or something. That's what the roll eyes was meant to indicate. Sorry you missed it. I know sarcasm doesn't come across well with words on a screen. I should have done more to make it obvious.

[WSSix]

If you give me a tax cut, there certainly is a chance that I'd spend it, but there's a near equal chance that I'll do something that has 0 economic affect like putting it into my savings account.



That comment right there shows your lack of understanding of how the economy in this country works. Putting money into a savings account is not letting it sit idle. It has a huge affect on the economy. There is not a vault in a bank with your cash in it just waiting for you to come take it out. It's being used for investments and loans. It is generating wealth for people.

You should read more on Austrian Economic principles, mises.org is a good start, and read more on Hayeck. It will better explain how and why capitalism works with history and facts unlike those extremely intelligent and perfect academic theories that just never seem to work for some reason proposed by Keynsians. That last part is me being sarcastic again. Sorry, but I am not going to listen or follow anyone's theories when one of them is that it would help the economy if the government buried money and then paid someone to dig it up. That's stupid. That's Keynes for you.

We need Andrew in this thread.

[WSSix]

That isn't me saying take from the rich savers to give to the poor spenders, but just saying that a 1$ tax cut for people even moderately successful people, is probably less in terms of trickle down than some people want to believe.

You are correct in terms of math with your example. A few dollars won't matter even though we are talking a lot more than a few dollars in the real world. However, psychological effects must be considered as well. That's why when tax rates are lowered, tax revenue goes up and stays up. It's not just the $1 that the rich are getting to save that makes the revenue go up. It's the feeling that they aren't being punished that matters.

If you're in the top tax bracket in this country, you're being tax almost 50% of your income by state and federal. The majority is federal. You have to make arguments and provide proof to keep more than that. Personally, that's a huge downer to me. Especially, when you go to the grocery store and the person in front of you buy food on food stamps and then hops into a car that costs more than the one you own. The number one vehicle of millionaires for a number of years was the F150. The Honda Civic was on the list too.

Couple that with the fact that nearly 50% of the people in this country who work pay no Federal income taxes. None not one red cent! That's people who make up to nearly 50k a year that supposedly can not even pay $100 to the funding of this government. That's just over $8 per month or 27 cents per day that they can't be burdened to pay. Yet, we are told the rich need to pay their fair share? Huge psychological downer on those of us that work very hard for our money.

Not all of the spending government does is justifiable and necessary. The majority of people, including those supposedly crazy Tea Partiers, are not trying to stop government spending. People just want it under control. Is it too much to ask that duplicate programs or programs that don't work be reformed and have their costs amended?

Also, keep in mind government employees do not pay taxes. As more of the work force becomes government employed, the burden of paying them fails on private sector companies. A private sector that also has to pay its own employees and supply them with benefits in many cases while keeping costs low enough to compete against other countries that have lower standards of living, where employees are paid less, and where corporate income taxes are less. We have the highest corporate income taxes in the world.

[GregWeld]

I think the tax issue is one of personal perspective. Most people look at their neighbor and think "they" must be rich or have a better job - etc. People tend to think everyone is better off than they are.

Here's my TAX perspective.

I'm the 1% guy that everyone hates... Too bad. In 2011 I bought almost a million dollars worth of cars - In Washington I pay 9.9% sales tax on those purchases. That's 100K to the state just in car tax alone.... forget the license fees etc.

I just bought a big truck - I paid 24K in FEDERAL excise tax and 20K in state tax - plus license fees.

This is the problem that people don't understand.... people spending money... is what makes an "economy"..... People NOT spending money creates a recession. If there is a recession... I will still live GREAT! But I might not spend as much money because I just don't have to, and or, I just don't feel like it. Who does that affect? It affects how much sales tax I pay -- it affects all the people that MIGHT have made money off me - thru commissions... profits... etc.

I don't mind paying taxes at all... I pay HUGE taxes (dollar wise).... I don't mind it. What I mind is people paying nothing - then bitching that their lives aren't good enough... that it's someone else's fault that their lives suck... and that the "government" should do more for them.

2/3rds of the Federal budget is now SOCIAL PROGRAMS.... it used to be 1/3rd of the budget. I would like to see that reversed so that we can get back to spending money on building and maintaining roads - improve our education system - national defense etc. In other words - I'd be HAPPY if I thought Obama was going to increase my taxes to build stuff - create stuff - etc. But his agenda is to take from me - and spend even more on "social programs". We have so many of them now we can't afford to pay our bills. I think that is what half the country is fed up with. The other half (according to the popular vote) seem to have their hands out...

[Flash68]

Greg, you're a lot smarter than you look.

Could not agree more with you. Pay the minimum legal taxes you can (call it creative, calling it using the tax code, whatever) and use the savings to consume and invest and stimulate! :thumbsup:

[realcoray]

That comment right there shows your lack of understanding of how the economy in this country works. Putting money into a savings account is not letting it sit idle. It has a huge affect on the economy. There is not a vault in a bank with your cash in it just waiting for you to come take it out. It's being used for investments and loans. It is generating wealth for people.

Certainly. Outside of burying money in my yard, anything I do with it benefits the economy to some degree.

Take a step back though from questioning my intelligence and consider what was going on in 2008. Consumers, aka people buying things, slowed down buying things. Rich consumers, poor consumers, everyone was freaked out and started saving more and spending less.

My company saw it, our customers are not poor people, they are businesses and they stopped spending money. I presume they were saving money where they could but the reality of them not spending money is that other businesses slowed, and had to slow their spending or start to lay people off

Consumer spending dropped, and the saving rate skyrocketed, and yet the economy kept falling. You could argue that banks weren't lending that extra money being saved and that is certainly true, but at my company business dropped and people don't take out loans to buy our products, so the banks had zero impact in terms of us having a bad year.

Any honest person with a business saw demand drop, and many businesses closed as a result. Certainly some places got jammed up because some banks didn't loan, and their customers used loans to buy their products, but in general? It was because everyone started saving money.

[realcoray]

This is the problem that people don't understand.... people spending money... is what makes an "economy"..... People NOT spending money creates a recession. If there is a recession... I will still live GREAT! But I might not spend as much money because I just don't have to, and or, I just don't feel like it. Who does that affect? It affects how much sales tax I pay -- it affects all the people that MIGHT have made money off me - thru commissions... profits... etc.

2/3rds of the Federal budget is now SOCIAL PROGRAMS.... it used to be 1/3rd of the budget. I would like to see that reversed so that we can get back to spending money on building and maintaining roads - improve our education system - national defense etc. In other words - I'd be HAPPY if I thought Obama was going to increase my taxes to build stuff - create stuff - etc. But his agenda is to take from me - and spend even more on "social programs". We have so many of them now we can't afford to pay our bills. I think that is what half the country is fed up with. The other half (according to the popular vote) seem to have their hands out...

I agree pretty much completely about spending being what helps the economy and that we clearly cannot just keep spending as a nation like we have been. Functionally the increase in social programs has a lot to do with things that Obama has no control over.

For example, Old people! With more and more baby boomers retiring, that is far more spending on medicare, and social security. In terms of the other aspects like welfare and food stamps, unemployment, I can certainly see them all being higher than usual due to the recession in general.

What people forget about fixing all of this is that Obama and Boehner were very close to a deal that would have made cuts to these programs, and had some additional tax revenue. They both should shoulder the blame for it not happening and putting us into the current fiscal cliff situation but I think that they will most likely come into agreement on a balanced package of cuts and revenue increases (maybe taxes maybe not).

I don't think it's an us versus them, makers vs takers thing, you can't tax your way out of debt, and you can't cut your way out either. We all got some benefit out of the deficit spending, it's time we all got a little pain to pay for it and I feel like that's what is going to happen.

[GregWeld]

.... And I don't mind people being on welfare etc... or getting unemployment..


What I DO care about is that someone isn't LOOKING for a job - of any kind...

Being out of work - or being out of/down on your luck... I'm okay with that... but you'd better be trying to do something to change that. 'Cause sitting around doing nothing is what I get pissed about.

Personally - I'd like to see us return to a more WPA style program. If you're getting a "pay check" -- then you are "on the payroll" -- either the state or the county or the fed is sending you a check and taking care of your needs. IF that is the case --- then you need to "DO SOMETHING" for that check. You need to mow grass or rake leaves - or sweep streets - clean graffiti off - paint a government building - help the cooks at the public schools..... SOMETHING. If you're incapable - incapacitated - "slow" - etc.... then you should probably get more because we need to take care of those that can't take care of themselves. I'm totally for that. But if you can get out of bed in the morning... and walk and talk... then we have plenty of work that needs to be done. Doesn't have to be hard work - there's plenty of "hands"... but ya gotta do something.

[Shmoov69]

Gregg....clap clap clap clap!! Spot on!! ALL of it!!:cheers:

[out2kayak]

As several have echoed, I don't mind helping my fellow person.

The thing that gets me is we feed a person a day (food stamps, other social programs) verses teaching them how to be self sufficient. What's that old saying:

"Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to sell fish and he eats steak."

I have been in several industries where it simply became unprofitable to work there. The first was an engineer fixing broken electronics. Tech changed and it's cheaper to throw things out and get the latest verses handing it to me to fix.

I transitioned into another area (programming) and worked there for a while. Many of the jobs were off-shored and there was another transition.

So, now I'm doing solution architecture.

Bottom line is I have to keep learning, many times paying for my own training, to keep my skills sharp and competitive with the market.

We need the government to incentivize people to learn, grow and adapt to an ever changing world.

Handing someone money (remember how you spent your tax rebate check of 2008) is usually used to pay for short term pleasure. Instead, how about giving employers a break to bring on more interns (no matter their age) or fostering a mentoring program?

I just hate the government taking my hard earned money only to see others waist it.

Just saying....

:cheers:

[Eleanor's Nemesis]

I don't think it's an us versus them, makers vs takers thing, you can't tax your way out of debt, and you can't cut your way out either. We all got some benefit out of the deficit spending, it's time we all got a little pain to pay for it and I feel like that's what is going to happen.


Pain isn't necessary for anybody. The best solution is to 'grow the economy'.

Instead of people bltching about the size of the slice of their pie you bake a bigger pie.

What kind of effect would there be on the Treasury if we put 10 million people back to work in the private sector so that they are paying taxes?

[out2kayak]

FWIW:

rEM4NKXK-iA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEM4NKXK-iA

:cheers:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Good stuff Greg, its good to put it out there and show what it is all about. You should hang out with Peter Schiff at them protests to set the record straight.

[Van B]

.... And I don't mind people being on welfare etc... or getting unemployment..


What I DO care about is that someone isn't LOOKING for a job - of any kind...

Being out of work - or being out of/down on your luck... I'm okay with that... but you'd better be trying to do something to change that. 'Cause sitting around doing nothing is what I get pissed about.

Personally - I'd like to see us return to a more WPA style program. If you're getting a "pay check" -- then you are "on the payroll" -- either the state or the county or the fed is sending you a check and taking care of your needs. IF that is the case --- then you need to "DO SOMETHING" for that check. You need to mow grass or rake leaves - or sweep streets - clean graffiti off - paint a government building - help the cooks at the public schools..... SOMETHING. If you're incapable - incapacitated - "slow" - etc.... then you should probably get more because we need to take care of those that can't take care of themselves. I'm totally for that. But if you can get out of bed in the morning... and walk and talk... then we have plenty of work that needs to be done. Doesn't have to be hard work - there's plenty of "hands"... but ya gotta do something.

The only thing you missed here is that if you put these people to work mowing or street sweeping you can bet your ass that the union municipal workers will bitch that their work is being taken away. I like the way you are thinking though.

[GregWeld]

The only thing you missed here is that if you put these people to work mowing or street sweeping you can bet your ass that the union municipal workers will bitch that their work is being taken away. I like the way you are thinking though.

You just make the current employees -- "supervisors".... and give them 5 or 6 helpers. :D

[Vegas69]

I've always said the same thing Greg. If you are collecting government assistance, you should either be working to improve society or indebted to the US Treasury. Meaning, you have to pay it back. Whether it's taking tax refunds to minor windfalls through garnishment. Of course a drug test should be mandatory every month.

But hey, I'm not a politician and could never get elected. You have to lie through your teeth to get in office. I'd rather tell it how it is......

It's never going to change. There will always be those that do and those that don't. There are getting to be a lot less doers so I'll juse forget about it. :lol:

[57hemicuda]

Some people have the vocabulary to sum up things in a way that you can quickly understand them. This quote came from the Czech Republic . Someone over there has it figured out. It was translated into English from an article in the Prague newspaper Prager Zeitungon on 04.28.2010.

"The danger to America is not Barack Obama, but a citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency. It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their president. The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails America.

Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools, such as those who made him their president."

[Shmoov69]

I read that In an email yesterday but it didn't state the source. Very true synopsis!

[GregWeld]

Ron --

Good post! And that really is what worries the people like "us" the most. It's not that Obama is a bad man (I personally like him and voted for him the first time) ===== what I dislike is the DIRECTION the voters seem to want to head. And that there seems to be more and more "government will fix all my problems" type thinkers. Rather than the USA I grew up in which was "get your sorry azz out of bed - get a job - pay your bills - work hard and MAYBE things will be better for you down the road - note the MAYBE". In other words -- YOU rely on yourself. :cheers:

[realcoray]

Ron --

Good post! And that really is what worries the people like "us" the most. It's not that Obama is a bad man (I personally like him and voted for him the first time) ===== what I dislike is the DIRECTION the voters seem to want to head. And that there seems to be more and more "government will fix all my problems" type thinkers. Rather than the USA I grew up in which was "get your sorry azz out of bed - get a job - pay your bills - work hard and MAYBE things will be better for you down the road - note the MAYBE". In other words -- YOU rely on yourself. :cheers:

I think it's extremely simplistic to just generalize any set of voters into these giant buckets. The conservative view seems to be that all of the takers, aka anyone dependent on the government will vote democratic, including anyone on social security, having medicare, unemployment, welfare etc.

The liberal view is that anyone who votes republican is either a super rich person, an old person, or virtually anyone from the south, who they feel is too stupid to know better.

There is certainly elements of truth to these just like most generalizations but it's naive to believe it and apply it the way you guys are. Old people for example are in both buckets!

The thing is, some of you same people calling out the president for dividing people up, and us vs them, you then go on to divide people up into makers vs takers, fools vs non fools etc. What is it, are we one America or are we split up along some mysterious line?

You have reasons for wanting a different president, and some of you are able to express why and I can see how that is an entirely valid viewpoint. Few people here seem willing or capable of understanding why someone would vote for Obama.

[Beegs]

Right now the doers are OK with being bent over by the government, until that changes, there will be no change.

[Beegs]

Right now the doers are OK with being bent over by the government, until that changes, there will be no change.

Foodstamps Surge By Most In One Year To New All Time Record, In Delayed Release
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-10/foodstamps-surge-most-one-year-new-all-time-record-delayed-release

[Sieg]

The animosities and complications of mutually respecting others values and rights and agreeing to cooperate for betterment of a given region region appears to be lost in the large metro areas among those with higher levels of education and wealth.

Fortunately I have numerous friends established in many smaller farm and ranch communities all around the state of Oregon. When I need to decompress and get back to the core fundamentals and values, those communities are where I chose to spend my vacation time. IMO the "solutions" of compromise are much simpler than what the micro-managing "well educated metro's" have nurtured.

I'm not throwing stones, that's just what works for me and my family and I feel very fortunate to have those genuine relationships. :thumbsup:

:lateral:

[DRJDVM's '69]

Congress ultimatley decides what gets done in this country. They have way more influence that the President by himself. Until the democrats and republicans in congress can work together, nothing positive will ever get done.

They all need to stop fighting against each others views and policies just because the plan or policy came form the "other team", and do what is right for the country....until that happens, we are all screwed no matter who holds the presidency.

I voted for Obama the first time.....he has unquestionably let me down.... the presidency was prime for the taking....a lob pitch across the plate.....and the best that the Republican could do was Mitt Romney? You guys want to point fingers, then point it at the Republican party for not having a candidate that could win the Presidency when it was prime for the taking....

[Flash68]

Good stuff Greg, its good to put it out there and show what it is all about. You should hang out with Peter Schiff at them protests to set the record straight.

I like Schiff and have read his books but man he gets a little extreme sometimes.



I voted for Obama the first time.....he has unquestionably let me down.... the presidency was prime for the taking....a lob pitch across the plate.....and the best that the Republican could do was Mitt Romney? You guys want to point fingers, then point it at the Republican party for not having a candidate that could win the Presidency when it was prime for the taking....

Absolutely, Ned. Same here. I voted for the lesser of 2 disasters. None of the above was the obvious choice to anyone paying attention. :unibrow:

[GregWeld]

Congress ultimatley decides what gets done in this country. They have way more influence that the President by himself. Until the democrats and republicans in congress can work together, nothing positive will ever get done.

They all need to stop fighting against each others views and policies just because the plan or policy came form the "other team", and do what is right for the country....until that happens, we are all screwed no matter who holds the presidency.

I voted for Obama the first time.....he has unquestionably let me down.... the presidency was prime for the taking....a lob pitch across the plate.....and the best that the Republican could do was Mitt Romney? You guys want to point fingers, then point it at the Republican party for not having a candidate that could win the Presidency when it was prime for the taking....


Not only a lob across the plate ONCE.... BUT in the LAST TWO elections!!



And I couldn't agree with you more about CONGRESS (House and Senate). People in the USA just don't understand that this is a FAR MORE IMPORTANT VOTE than for the POTUS.

THAT is why our education system needs an overhaul! We teach all manor of STUFF -- but people can't do or understand BASICS.

I see half the guys on this board using "their" (as in THEMSELVES) - "there" (as in a PLACE) and "they're" (as in THEY ARE) wrong daily! And "to" (going somewhere?) and "too" (too big, too small, too few cubic inches - me too, as in also).... :lol: :rolleyes:

[Bucketlist2012]

Well sticking my neck out, I would say the proper choice was Ron Paul...But the corruption runs too deep in Washington and neither party wanted their meal tickets taken away.

True change and a clean up would have happened, but I knew it would never happen.

Really Hard to get the Truth when the Media is controlled....We are one station away from the media being totally controlled..When that is controlled, the Truth is also controlled...I wish we were in the middle, but both sides seem to think that the extreme left or right is where they should be...Not where I want to be.

If both sides were to ignore their base and begin to moderate from the center, we could get out of this mess...

[skatinjay27]

Well sticking my neck out, I would say the proper choice was Ron Paul...But the corruption runs too deep in Washington and neither party wanted their meal tickets taken away.

True change and a clean up would have happened, but I knew it would never happen.

Really Hard to get the Truth when the Media is controlled....We are one station away from the media being totally controlled..When that is controlled, the Truth is also controlled...I wish we were in the middle, but both sides seem to think that the extreme left or right is where they should be...Not where I want to be.

If both sides were to ignore their base and begin to moderate from the center, we could get out of this mess...
U wont see me trying to lobb your neck off!
his view on what goverments position in our lives should be are on point for me
but with the. Way the partys are you gotta be black or white, there is no gray...:rolleyes:

[realcoray]

Congress ultimatley decides what gets done in this country. They have way more influence that the President by himself. Until the democrats and republicans in congress can work together, nothing positive will ever get done.

They all need to stop fighting against each others views and policies just because the plan or policy came form the "other team", and do what is right for the country....until that happens, we are all screwed no matter who holds the presidency.

I voted for Obama the first time.....he has unquestionably let me down.... the presidency was prime for the taking....a lob pitch across the plate.....and the best that the Republican could do was Mitt Romney? You guys want to point fingers, then point it at the Republican party for not having a candidate that could win the Presidency when it was prime for the taking....

This is the truth. The issue for republicans is that to even get the nomination, you have to go so far to the right, that by the time the election comes, you have to swing so far back that people can't be sure what they are going to get.

McCain for example, he was a moderate and someone who I was terribly dissapointed that he changed his views on many issues in order to get the nomination. The exact same with Mitt Romney. He was a moderate but then he was an extreme conservative before trying to be moderate again. I feel like a lot of people probably aren't happy with Obama, but they know exactly what they are going to get and would rather not gamble on these things and hope the other guy is who is saying at that point in time.

I will be very curious who comes out in the 2016 race for both parties. It's way early but I could definitely see myself voting for someone like Chris Christie if he doesn't do the republican extreme view shift.

[SuperSport]

I would say the proper choice was Ron Paul...

You are not alone.:yes:

[Shmoov69]

You're right Ned! "That's" they best they could come up with?!?! But that just further reinforces my thought that they all are in cahoots!! :willy:

[GregWeld]

The Republican Party needs to separate itself from:

Religion


What a woman chooses to do with their body


Lilly white rich guys (and I happen to be one of those....)


The Democratic Party needs to separate itself from:


More social programs for "everyone"


More Government is good


Class warfare ideology

[Vegas69]

It's the same rhetoric every time around on both sides. I agree, you have to change your approach if you want to change your results. It's going to take time to change the past, that's the real problem.

[Blake Foster]

what is the defination of insanity again???

doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome?

[Vegas69]

:yes:

[Eleanor's Nemesis]

Congress ultimatley decides what gets done in this country. They have way more influence that the President by himself. Until the democrats and republicans in congress can work together, nothing positive will ever get done.

They all need to stop fighting against each others views and policies just because the plan or policy came form the "other team", and do what is right for the country....until that happens, we are all screwed no matter who holds the presidency.

I voted for Obama the first time.....he has unquestionably let me down.... the presidency was prime for the taking....a lob pitch across the plate.....and the best that the Republican could do was Mitt Romney? You guys want to point fingers, then point it at the Republican party for not having a candidate that could win the Presidency when it was prime for the taking....

I tend to think Congress has more power than the President, but those executive orders can be a real thrill and one of the most powerful and longlasting things the Prez can do is nominate US Supreme Court Justices. Of course they have to get Senate approval but the Dems lead there too.

I know we all rag on Congress, and a lot of them are worthy of such, but I do believe they (for the most part) think they are doing what's best for the country. We just all disagree on what's best for the country lots of the time.

I think Mitt was a pretty good candidate. Mitt was probably the most liberal Republican candidate for Prez in the past 100 years, if not more. He still didn't win and I think a more conservative candidate probably would have fared worse.

Something that should be chilling to the Republican Party is the fact that since 1988 they have only won the popular vote one time.

[Van B]

Not only a lob across the plate ONCE.... BUT in the LAST TWO elections!!



And I couldn't agree with you more about CONGRESS (House and Senate). People in the USA just don't understand that this is a FAR MORE IMPORTANT VOTE than for the POTUS.

THAT is why our education system needs an overhaul! We teach all manor of STUFF -- but people can't do or understand BASICS.

I see half the guys on this board using "their" (as in THEMSELVES) - "there" (as in a PLACE) and "they're" (as in THEY ARE) wrong daily! And "to" (going somewhere?) and "too" (too big, too small, too few cubic inches - me too, as in also).... :lol: :rolleyes:

I'll give you a pass on using "manor" where you should have used "manner" right before going into a rant about people misusing words...:rofl:

[Mkelcy]

I don't know how many of you actually watched the Republican primary debates, but asking how many of the candidates believed in evolution with - maybe- one hand raised? Really?

The Republicans used to have intellectual vitality, rigorous arguments and decent positions on the issues. Now they are simply anti-[name your interest] know nothings.

Unless and until the Republicans define themselves, rather than letting Rush, Fox News and the Tea Party define them, they are the 21st century Whigs.

[Eleanor's Nemesis]

The Republican Party needs to separate itself from:

Religion


What a woman chooses to do with their body


Lilly white rich guys (and I happen to be one of those....)


The Democratic Party needs to separate itself from:


More social programs for "everyone"


More Government is good


Class warfare ideology

I agree. But let's go a bit further on the Republican side-

As much as they need more of the female vote they need the Hispanic vote even more. This is pure demographics at work here.

The Pubs have a good hold on Texas...but that state has gone from 'red' to 'pink' and in another 10 years or so it's possible that the majority of the Texas population will be latino.

If the Pubs lose Texas it is simply 'game over' in Presidential elections for them. They have to win over the Hispanic vote, and quite frankly I"m suprised it"s such a struggle for them. Hispanics are typically Catholic and have strong family values-which jive with things Republican. But then again when the Repub candidate speaks about 'illegals' and self-return to their country of origin it doesn't bode well for getting votes.

[57hemicuda]

I think its game over now, thats why everyone is so worked up. This election the republicans showed up, there just isn't enough of them to make a difference. Again, I heard this year became the first that more then 50% of the adult population are receiving direct checks from the government(Fed, and state employees, welfare receipiants, Social Security receipiants,etc., etc.)Why would they vote for anything but more,more,more.

Unless the economy goes into a total freefall, I can't see fiscal consevatives taking power again. I'll be the first to say the republican party is not fiscally conservative, but they are surely the lesser of those two evils. Thank God for gridlock Maybe the house will jam things up so hard that nothing will get done, unfortunatly the replublicans are notorious for rolling over. Somebody smack me, I think I'm turning into a Libertarian.

[realcoray]

I think its game over now, thats why everyone is so worked up. This election the republicans showed up, there just isn't enough of them to make a difference. Again, I heard this year became the first that more then 50% of the adult population are receiving direct checks from the government(Fed, and state employees, welfare receipiants, Social Security receipiants,etc., etc.)Why would they vote for anything but more,more,more.

But look at what states receive the most from the government, and compare that with what states are considered red or blue.

What you'll find is republican states are huge takers, sitting around on the couch all day collecting welfare that the democratic states pay for (also china). Republican states on average get 1.46$ in federal spending for every tax dollar paid, democratic states get 1.16$, and out of the 15 states that pay more than they get, 3/4ths are blue states.

The south, clearly needs to get a job and start making something of themselves.

[GregWeld]

But look at what states receive the most from the government, and compare that with what states are considered red or blue.

What you'll find is republican states are huge takers, sitting around on the couch all day collecting welfare that the democratic states pay for (also china). Republican states on average get 1.46$ in federal spending for every tax dollar paid, democratic states get 1.16$, and out of the 15 states that pay more than they get, 3/4ths are blue states.

The south, clearly needs to get a job and start making something of themselves.



Dig a little deeper and find out what percentage of the population in those states are REGISTERED voters -- and what percentage turned out. It might be interesting to see why the "south" votes Republican?

[Bucketlist2012]

California is a classic example of what is wrong with this Nation...A blue state.

And it will need a Federal bailout soon...Shows how well their Ideaology works...And the nation is on the same path...

[GregWeld]

California is a classic example of what is wrong with this Nation...A blue state.

And it will need a Federal bailout soon...Shows how well their Ideaology works...And the nation is on the same path...



You said a mouthful right there. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict California as the first state to go bankrupt (technically).

[Flash68]

You said a mouthful right there. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict California as the first state to go bankrupt (technically).

True. But we're too big to fail. :lol:

[57hemicuda]

But look at what states receive the most from the government, and compare that with what states are considered red or blue.

What you'll find is republican states are huge takers, sitting around on the couch all day collecting welfare that the democratic states pay for (also china). Republican states on average get 1.46$ in federal spending for every tax dollar paid, democratic states get 1.16$, and out of the 15 states that pay more than they get, 3/4ths are blue states.

The south, clearly needs to get a job and start making something of themselves.

I can go to 10 different places and get 10 different break downs on where the money goes, so lets not delute ourselves into thinking that dems are not HUGE waisters of my tax dollars. Don't know about your state, but I'm sure its the same as mine, the lions share of tax money goes to the the inner city, the bluest part of the state(the crazy part is the more they spend, the worse it gets) I'm no appoligist for the republican party, but as bad as they are, the democrats are way worse. Just look at the deficit under Obama, the wars are winding down, yet spending goes through the roof.

All I can say is, stop listening to what they are telling us, and start watching what they are doing. Bush ramrodded the the Patriot Act though, Obama is bending us over with Obamacare, don't know which is scarier. Look at where the federal government is, they now are controlling heath care, the insurance industy, the auto industry, the banking industry, none of which is constitutional. You know the founding fathers are looking down thinking how did you let this happen.

[Bucketlist2012]

none of which is constitutional. You know the founding fathers are looking down thinking how did you let this happen.

Now THERE is a mouthful.... Just spend some time reading quotes from our founding Father's.

They predicted that some of this would happen....They told us to not let it happen...The Federal Reserve, Government intrusion, etc...

But many aren't listening, and the dumbing down of society is at an all time high...

[fleetus macmullitz]

But many aren't listening, and the dumbing down of society is at an all time high...

That was my prevailing thought on election night. :wow:

[SuperSport]

True. But we're too big to fail. :lol:

Classic!

[SuperSport]

Hispanics are typically Catholic and have strong family values-which jive with things Republican. But then again when the Repub candidate speaks about 'illegals' and self-return to their country of origin it doesn't bode well for getting votes.
You sir have it correct. They will Praise Reagan time and time again. What did Reagan do for Latinos and others as far as the immigration issue?
All the Republicans had to do what separate themselves from Faux News and idiots like Limbaugh and Trump and they may have had a legitimate chance.

Me personally, I don't like the idea of checkpoints when driving across Arizona and don't want that nonsense to spread to other states.
My guy was Ron Paul but, he did not stand a snow balls chance in you know where.

Keep it up Republicans and the nest president will be Cory Booker. And no this is note a race thing it is a "vote for anybody but them" thing. Much like how Obama won the first time around.

[Garage Dog 65]

Might wanna recheck the data on the Reagan comment. He did a pretty big immigration amnesty deal - and we're back in the same mess 30 years later.

Simpson Mazoli Bill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfHKIq5z80U

Bush did a big deal on immigration too.

And the Latino vote totals went down for those presidents in their next elections.

Jim

[SuperSport]

He did a pretty big immigration amnesty deal - and we're back in the same mess 30 years later.
And the Latino vote totals went down for those presidents in their next elections.

Jim

Absolutely right. Amnesty!
Reagan knew exactly what to do and what to say for the time.
As a Latino I am going to give you my opinion. We want to vote Republican as mentioned by another member earlier. We also understand that tightening the border is important. But, to go and deport people who come here, and work for our benefit we do not believe is right. By benefit I am talking about buying produce at stores for cheap. Get rid of the migrant worker and you will witness the biggest inflation in the cost of produce you have ever seen. (just one example). No one thanks the migrant worker for his labor and cheap earned wage so we can buy our food for cheap.
Reagan said it himself, employers hire them. The employer benefits and we benefit.
The counter argument is "we want legal migrant workers correct"? Well once a migrant worker is legal he is going to try and get a better job and leave the fields.
We need to be honest with ourselves as Americans we can not tell people not to come here and when they do, tell them we have work for them. We need to realize there are jobs we will not do for certain pay or labor.
We need to be like Reagan and face the issue and see what compromise we can come up with.
“If they come into the United States to pick tomatoes, they can’t go out and work at McDonald’s" was once said by someone. And you wonder why you don't get the votes you need.
Keep it up Republicans.

[Spiffav8]

Absolutely right. Amnesty!
Reagan knew exactly what to do and what to say for the time.
As a Latino I am going to give you my opinion. We want to vote Republican as mentioned by another member earlier. We also understand that tightening the border is important. But, to go and deport people who come here, and work for our benefit we do not believe is right. By benefit I am talking about buying produce at stores for cheap. Get rid of the migrant worker and you will witness the biggest inflation in the cost of produce you have ever seen. (just one example). No one thanks the migrant worker for his labor and cheap earned wage so we can buy our food for cheap.
Reagan said it himself, employers hire them. The employer benefits and we benefit.
The counter argument is "we want legal migrant workers correct"? Well once a migrant worker is legal he is going to try and get a better job and leave the fields.
We need to be honest with ourselves as Americans we can not tell people not to come here and when they do, tell them we have work for them. We need to realize there are jobs we will not do for certain pay or labor.
We need to be like Reagan and face the issue and see what compromise we can come up with.
“If they come into the United States to pick tomatoes, they can’t go out and work at McDonald’s" was once said by someone. And you wonder why you don't get the votes you need.
Keep it up Republicans.

I may be way off or just missing what you are saying, so please correct me if I am wrong. What I took from that is that you think it is alright for a person to come to the United States illegally, so long as they are here to work as cheap labor?

[GregWeld]

I'll jump in here.... :D


When I go to Home Depot -- I see people that WANT to work... and I like that about those people. They're not standing by the freeway offramp with some sob story on a piece of cardboard...


What I do not like - is that they (meaning anyone that comes illegally) pay ZERO taxes... and when they get ill... they show up at the ER and we fix them up free of charge... and I don't like that some of the money they earn is sent out of my country... and I don't like the mess that is left behind in the areas they inhabit. In other words - come here and RESPECT my way of life... don't turn my country into the crap country you left behind.

If people come here and like it... then I want them to try to better themselves - learn to speak english - and pay taxes etc just like I do. I don't want them to work in the fields for low pay and do back breaking work. But that "low cost" of labor you cite doesn't jibe with the 11 BILLION DOLLARS that California budgets for "illegals".... So just like Obamacare... there is no "free" or "low cost" medical care... someone is paying - we're just recognizing it in a different column on the spreadsheet .


So --- I don't like to bitch --- unless I think I have a better way....

We don't need to deport people.... But we do need to find a way to organize them and bring them to some sort of "legal state" where they can be here - pay taxes and medicare etc - but not be citizens without going through what our laws already say they must do.

What I don't like is what I see when I go to Southern California... where parts of it are looking more and more like Northern Mexico... and THAT is what people are upset about I think... So I think people would like a "fix" for the issue - and I think people in general would like to see other people do well and improve themselves... but NOT at the expense of our way of life as we know it.

Does that make sense?

[SuperSport]

I may be way off or just missing what you are saying, so please correct me if I am wrong. What I took from that is that you think it is alright for a person to come to the United States illegally, so long as they are here to work as cheap labor?

That is what Reagan did.

[Spiffav8]

Greg it makes sense to me and I respect your point of view and agree with 98% of it.

I wasn't looking to stir the pot and my question was an honest one. The reason I asked for clarification is that a very very good friend of mine came from those who pick produce. His parents came to the U.S. legally and worked VERY hard to carve out the best life possible for their family. They started in the fields. Their children all are very well educated (by their own means) and all have very good jobs. I have nothing but the utmost respect for them.

I just don't think it's fair to those who do all that it takes to come to the U.S. legally when many others come in illegally. It's a pretty big slap in the face to anyone that has earned it.

My wife works for the local police department here in Las Vegas and I have a lot of friends on the department. They will tell you that the illegals that cause a great many problems. The fact that that they came here by an illegal means shows a bit of who they are. Those that came here legally...well that also shows the type of person they are.

I honestly don't care where a person comes from. I have been all over the world with my job and I have spent time in a lot of poor places. There are good people everywhere and we all have the same basic desire to improve our way of life. Anyone that make the immigration issue strictly about Latino's or any other one specific background is wrong.

That's my .2 cents. Hope I used words like "their" properly. :_paranoid

[GregWeld]

That is what Reagan did.



Here's what's REALLY wrong ----


If we just take Mexico and the U.S.


We have TWO governments that have failed their people. Mexico by not providing an environment (after 100's of years) where it's people can make a standard of living in their own country.... and ours - by allowing people to knowingly break the laws and get away with it (and that's the people seeking work and those that employ them).

[SuperSport]

GregWeld,
as a American of Latino decent I agree with you as well.
Unlike what most people think Latino Americans don't like seeing there neighborhood go to SH*&!
If you think the Mexican American likes paying taxes all you have to do is go down to Mexico.
The typical Mexican would rather have dirt roads and burn there own garbage as opposed to pay taxes for nice roads and waste collection every weekend.

Wake up Republican, they have the same ideology as you. But, if you want to categorize them as a taker and not a worker then you will never get their respect come election time.
I am only 1 person. My vote is only 1 of many. But, I do vote. I did not vote for Obama in 2008 or 2012. As well, I did not vote for MCcain or Romney. I pulled for the guy I thought was best for America and treated Americans and people with respect, Ron Paul.

[Spiffav8]

That is what Reagan did.

With all respect my friend, I didn't ask what Regan did. I asked if that was what you where saying and honestly I am more interested in hearing your personal opinion and views. You bring a unique perspective to the table. One that perhaps I can learn from....if you're willing to share.

If not here in the public eye, them perhaps via a PM.

:captain:

[Richio1]

Very well stated Greg.


I'll jump in here.... :D


When I go to Home Depot -- I see people that WANT to work... and I like that about those people. They're not standing by the freeway offramp with some sob story on a piece of cardboard...


What I do not like - is that they (meaning anyone that comes illegally) pay ZERO taxes... and when they get ill... they show up at the ER and we fix them up free of charge... and I don't like that some of the money they earn is sent out of my country... and I don't like the mess that is left behind in the areas they inhabit. In other words - come here and RESPECT my way of life... don't turn my country into the crap country you left behind.

If people come here and like it... then I want them to try to better themselves - learn to speak english - and pay taxes etc just like I do. I don't want them to work in the fields for low pay and do back breaking work. But that "low cost" of labor you cite doesn't jibe with the 11 BILLION DOLLARS that California budgets for "illegals".... So just like Obamacare... there is no "free" or "low cost" medical care... someone is paying - we're just recognizing it in a different column on the spreadsheet .


So --- I don't like to bitch --- unless I think I have a better way....

We don't need to deport people.... But we do need to find a way to organize them and bring them to some sort of "legal state" where they can be here - pay taxes and medicare etc - but not be citizens without going through what our laws already say they must do.

What I don't like is what I see when I go to Southern California... where parts of it are looking more and more like Northern Mexico... and THAT is what people are upset about I think... So I think people would like a "fix" for the issue - and I think people in general would like to see other people do well and improve themselves... but NOT at the expense of our way of life as we know it.

Does that make sense?

[GregWeld]

GregWeld,
as a American of Latino decent I agree with you as well.
Unlike what most people think Latino Americans don't like seeing there neighborhood go to SH*&!
If you think the Mexican American does not like paying taxes all you have to do is go down to Mexico.
The typical Mexican would rather have dirt roads and burn there own garbage as opposed to pay taxes for nice roads and waste collection every weekend.

Wake up Republican, they have the same ideology as you. But, if you want to categorize them as a taker and not a worker then you will never get their respect come election time.
I am only 1 person. My vote is only 1 of many. But, I do vote. I did not vote for Obama in 2008 or 2012. As well, I did not vote for MCcain or Romney. I pulled for the guy I thought was best for America and treated Americans and people with respect, Ron Paul.


Agreed!


Personally -- I like PEOPLE... if they're good people. Period. I do not like some people by way of their own actions regardless of color or race. There's way more classless, filthy, white folks that were born right here in the good old USA...

I had a warehouse in New York City -- all Puerto Rican guys.... they were the BEST guys in the whole wide world. Honest hard working guys. They were paid well and treated well. I ate with them regularly. Those guys were the best!

[SuperSport]

I just don't think it's fair to those who do all that it takes to come to the U.S. legally when many others come in illegally. It's a pretty big slap in the face to anyone that has earned it.

The fact that that they came here by an illegal means shows a bit of who they are. Those that came here legally...well that also shows the type of person they are.


Not necessarily true. Most Latinos know why illegals come here illegally. As GregWeld said their government failed them. When it is impossible to feed your family a man will do what it takes to survive. They are no different than an unemployed American. They just want a job, any job.

I am going to bow out because I know where these threads and debates typically end up. I want to thank all that kept it civil and treated an opposing view with respect. Maybe, some need to treat others with respect instead of categorizing them as takers or people looking for handouts. I think the media over used that b.s. and offended many. People took to the poles and voted not for the best guy but, the worst of two evils.
This is just my opinion and it does not mean much. But, one thing is for sure regardless of what anyone calls me, I am an American first and foremost and I vote. And there is allot of garbage I am seeing coming from both parties that I could never agree with.

[GregWeld]

I am an American first and foremost and I vote. And there is allot of garbage I am seeing coming from both parties that I could never agree with.


And there's the difference.... in a nutshell. YOU are a tax paying, hard working, American. You don't expect something for nothing. You put your boots on and go to work every day. You care. You vote.

My old saying -- "Don't vote? Then don't bitch!"


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cheers:

[Spiffav8]

Not necessarily true. Most Latinos know why illegals come here illegally. As GregWeld said their government failed them. When it is impossible to feed your family a man will do what it takes to survive. They are no different than an unemployed American. They just want a job, any job.

I am going to bow out because I know where these threads and debates typically end up. I want to thank all that kept it civil and treated an opposing view with respect. Maybe, some need to treat others with respect instead of categorizing them as takers or people looking for handouts. I think the media over used that b.s. and offended many. People took to the poles and voted not for the best guy but, the worst of two evils.
This is just my opinion and it does not mean much. But, one thing is for sure regardless of what anyone calls me, I am an American first and foremost and I vote. And there is allot of garbage I am seeing coming from both parties that I could never agree with.

I 100% understand that a desperate person will do whatever it takes. Hard to argue that...not that I am arguing.

I suppose the answer is that there is no simple answer. Once size doesn't fit all.

I won't allow this thread to go sideways. As long as everyone is respectful, I see it as a positive. We have all learned a lot here on LG. :thumbsup:

[SuperSport]

With all respect my friend, I didn't ask what Regan did. I asked if that was what you where saying and honestly I am more interested in hearing your personal opinion and views. You bring a unique perspective to the table. One that perhaps I can learn from....if you're willing to share.

If not here in the public eye, them perhaps via a PM.

:captain:
You deserve a response before I leave.
I will give you only one example. My gardener is Latino. With out sharing any of his personal life I will say this. His son served with the Marines and was wounded badly in Afghanistan last year. His son received honors from our country for his service and almost giving his life for this country. He is what Faux news calls an "Anchor baby". That to me is insulting.
He is what I call a real American. Should he and his family be sent back? Or as Americans can we see it to treat them as a special case? Can we go back to what Reagan tried and treat those that have sacrificed working in fields or those who wanted the same as our ancestors to live the American dream a second chance?

[Spiffav8]

You deserve a response before I leave.
I will give you only one example. My gardener is Latino. With out sharing any of his personal life I will say this. His son served with the Marines and was wounded badly in Afghanistan last year. His son received honors from our country for his service and almost giving his life for this country. He is what Faux news calls an "Anchor baby". That to me is insulting.
He is what I call a real American. Should he and his family be sent back? Or as Americans can we see it to treat them as a special case? Can we go back to what Reagan tried and treat those that have sacrificed working in fields or those who wanted the same as our ancestors to live the American dream a second chance?

I see what you are getting at. Hard working people earned (in a way) their place in the American dream because they have contributed. Or perhaps a better way to say it is that there are many ways one could earn citizenship. I could support that idea.

What I can't support is when criminals come here from other places. But that's an entire different can of worms. :rolleyes:

[Sieg]

Thought this was worth sharing........
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/408299_509434672404816_1929539217_n.jpg

[GregWeld]

And that sums up why I COULD NOT vote for President Obama....


He doesn't subscribe to ANY of those ideals.

[bdahlg68]

While very indicative of the feelings of lots of people on this board.... not something from Honest Abe's mouth...

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lincoln/prosperity.asp

[Sieg]

While very indicative of the feelings of lots of people on this board.... not something from Honest Abe's mouth...

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lincoln/prosperity.asp
:mad: Oops! The theory still has merit going forward. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Lincoln didn't say it -- but I was thinking it!!!


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Bucketlist2012]

Thought this was worth sharing........
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/408299_509434672404816_1929539217_n.jpg

This is what I am talking about....Abe, Thomas Jefferson, and many others knew what not to do and what to do..

Simple principles that if followed, lead to success. If abandoned, they lead to ruin.

[GregWeld]

Found this article by accident ---- and thought it really kind of read along the lines we've been discussing here.... that it's really the REPUBLICAN party that doesn't even understand what it's own people are saying/feeling. Note the IMMIGRATION issue!


Republicans got crushed on the issues, too
By NBC's Mark Murray
Follow @mmurraypolitics

For all the talk about how Mitt Romney and the Republicans lost when it came to demographics, the turnout, and the tactics, the exit polls also show that they lost when it came to the issues.
For years, the GOP has branded itself as the party that supports low taxes (especially for the wealthy) and opposes abortion and gay marriage.
But according to the exit polls from last week’s presidential election, a combined 60% said that tax rates should increase either for everyone or for those making more than $250,000. Just 35% said the tax rates shouldn’t increase for anyone.
What’s more, 59% said that abortion should be legal in all or most cases.
And by a 49%-to-46% margin, voters said that their states should legally recognize same-sex marriage.
Even on comprehensive immigration reform -- a subject that some Republicans (like George W. Bush) once supported, but most no longer do -- 65% said most illegal immigrants should be offered a chance to apply for legal status. (And since the election, GOP senators like Lindsey Graham and John McCain are now signaling renewed support for comprehensive immigration reform.)
The one bright spot for Republicans on the issues: A majority of voters -- 51% -- indicated that the government is doing too many things better left to businesses and the individuals. By comparison, 43% said government should do more to solve problems.
That’s a reversal from 2008, when 51% said the government should do more and 43% said it is doing too much.

[camcojb]

yeah, leave it to the Pubs to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. :lol:

[GregWeld]

yeah, leave it to the Pubs to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. :lol:

Well... you're absolutely right!

I know that my 22 year old daughter voted for Obama as did my 24 year old niece -- both of which voted "single issue" items such as abortion. I argued like crazy to get them to approach voting with a "larger view"... but they couldn't get past that single issue. They both felt that the Republican party disrespected woman and thereby also disrespected the Supreme Court.
Both these young ladies were raised in Catholic schools! Which - in their view - was also losing them because of the failure to be drug into the 21st century. LOL


So -- their vote countered Gwen's and my vote... thus the almost 50/50 split of the popular vote.

The Republican party has lost the woman's vote/the latino vote/the african-american vote/the labor vote... What's left? Us old lilly white guys!:lol:

[Vegas69]

My 64 year old assistant felt Romney was similar to a cave man in his values and Kelli didn't like his major flip flopping on the issues.

[preston]

Its hard for me to understand someone voting against Romney because of abortion. Do they really think he will somehow get Roe vs. Wade changed ? Is it just the tone ? Is Federal funding a litmus test for them ? I get that on many social issues from local liberals, and its always tough for me to reconcile because electing Pubs won't have any discernable effect on these things. I laughed out loud when the Dems declared "war on women" because it was such a blatant demagogic lie, but they pushed it all the way. Just like they also pushed the theme that Tea Parties were racist and violent, and despite zero evidence, that meme lived on and on. Even my mom (who is 80 and a doctinaire conventional wisdom liberal through and through) had a "no hate for me !" anti-tea party sticker on her car. Mom, I support the tea party 100% !

It just seems like regardless of the issues, the conservatives are fighting a constantly losing battle agains the media machine propaganda. Here we have been talking about the demise of the MM for almost 10 years and it seems like with the declining circulation and profts their voice is more influential than ever. Almost more important than what they talk about is what they don't want us to talk about. They still seem to set the tone of the day, and they are so lopsided. For exapmle, did you see any MM outlet discuss the complete lack of restrictions on the Obama credit card donation website ? Or about the web sites hosting companies connectinos to China ? It jsut seems like if that story came out about a PUb, it would be huge. Same with Benghazi (regardless of your current take). A week before the 2004 election NY Times pushed the Al Qaaqua (whatever) ammo dump story every day for a week, and after wards it completely died. Do you think if Bush was president that they would have had the same page 2 non-stories on Benghazi ?

I had hoped Romney would paint a little bigger picture of conservative vs liberal viewpoint. Sometimes when I talk to lib friends I feel like they have never even really heard the conservative argument except as caricature from the media.

Anyway, we can argue this much govt or that much govt until we're blue in the face, and it is totally irrelevant because the money has run out - argument will be over soon (although these things always take longer than you think, there being "a lot of ruin in a nation" and all that).

WE ARE $16T away from BEING BROKE !


Sorry, I started out (Ithought ) responding to a poitn but just ended up rambling instead.

[realcoray]

Its hard for me to understand someone voting against Romney because of abortion. Do they really think he will somehow get Roe vs. Wade changed ? Is it just the tone ?

The fact is, presidents themselves have the most capability to get something like RvW changed because they appoint the justices. Not to mention the fact that in numerous republican states, republicans are going out of their way to press the issue with things like forced ultrasounds (and not the abdomen kind) and what not.

It's not a huge leap to think that one of these laws would be challenged and it would end up in the courts lap and they have the capability to shift things.

Republicans come across as terrible stupid as it relates to women. Abortion is a small part of it. You have them hemming and hawing over equal pay for equal work, voting against it, or being completely non committal. You have them being completely stupid about rape, even after like 4 people were destroyed by it, they kept saying the same stupid stuff. It's one thing to believe that being raped and getting pregnant is a gift from god, it's another to say it.

Combine all of that together and it would sure seem like republicans want women to stay at home, barefoot and pregnant, and welp, that's not how most women under 50 see things.

[ironworks]

I really thought this was an interesting article and the comments at the bottom made it the more interesting. The comments at the bottom where made by voters.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49765349/comid/1#comments_top

Apparently having money and doing whatever you please now days is frowned upon.

Think of all the people employed to build and maintain a 90,000 sq ft house. All the labor and all the material suppliers. So what if you think it's too big and not what you want. I personally like my 1800sq ft house, and could not imagine walking around in a house that big.

[fleetus macmullitz]

Good discussion guys, but I miss the drama the thread had when Al reported someone just shot him. :(

[WSSix]

How about a good intermission?

http://weeklystandard.com/blogs/abc-affiliate-ran-phony-cover-broadwell-book_663264.html

[GregWeld]

Absolutely PERFECT!!!


That's hilarious!:lol:

[SuperSport]

I hope there are pictures in the book.:yes:

[fleetus macmullitz]

How about a good intermission?



Agreed...time to take a little break, with the added bonus of some non-politically correct humor about the Brits thrown in. :lol:

pdE83FX-Mto

[Sieg]

We are following up internally as well :rofl:

Nice find Trey :unibrow:

[Spiffav8]

I needed a good laugh.

While I find it funny, I have to wonder who's going to hold the media responsible for this. The answer...no one. Pretty unfair that they can get away with just about anything these days. IMO there should be serious repercussions for a mistake like this.

[fleetus macmullitz]

(#20 is some good old-fashioned Cold War humor. :D)


1. A people free to choose will always choose peace.

2. Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today’s world do not have.

3. Democracy is worth dying for, because it’s the most deeply honorable form of government ever devised by man.

4. Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.

5. How do you tell a communist? Well, it’s someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It’s someone who understands Marx and Lenin.

6. Information is the oxygen of the modern age. It seeps through the walls topped by barbed wire, it wafts across the electrified borders.

7. It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.

8. We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.

9. I call upon the scientific community in our country, those who gave us nuclear weapons, to turn their great talents now to the cause of mankind and world peace: to give us the means of rendering these nuclear weapons impotent and obsolete.

10. There is no limit to what a man can do or where he can go if he doesn’t mind who gets the credit.

11. We in government should learn to look at our country with the eyes of the entrepreneur, seeing possibilities where others see only problems.

12. A leader, once convinced a particular course of action is the right one, must have the determination to stick with it and be undaunted when the going gets rough.

13. In America, our origins matter less than our destination, and that is what democracy is all about.

14. The work of volunteer groups through out our country represents the very heart and soul of America. They have helped make this the most compassionate, generous, and humane society that ever existed on the face of this earth.

15. The men of Normandy had faith that what they were doing was right, faith that they fought for all humanity, faith that a just God would grant them mercy on this beachhead or the next. It was the deep knowledge — and pray God we have not lost it — that there is a profound moral difference between the use of force for liberation and the use of force for conquest.

16. The government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

17. Coercion, after all, merely captures man. Freedom captivates him.

18. The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’

19. I have left orders to be awakened at any time in case of national emergency, even if I’m in a cabinet meeting.

20. My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes. [Said during a radio microphone test in 1984]

[realcoray]

I needed a good laugh.

While I find it funny, I have to wonder who's going to hold the media responsible for this. The answer...no one. Pretty unfair that they can get away with just about anything these days. IMO there should be serious repercussions for a mistake like this.

So you now want the government holding media accountable? You can't simultaneously say government should get out of our lives and be tiny, and then demand they do everything.

While they could fine the station, real accountability for the media is from the consumers of it, if everyone stopped watching that station over this, then changes would occur.

The reality is one poor guy made a mistake, and I cannot imagine he was getting high fives from management about it. He'll be lucky to keep his job so to him at least, the repercussions will be pretty serious.

[Bucketlist2012]

The reality is , we are one station away from being all Liberal media..All the major networks and most of the cable...

Anyone who cannot see that is naive, or just refuses to acknowledge the truth..

I don't believe Government should get invovled. If the media wants to be that way, well OK by me. I know better.


Society is brainwashed..I for one have stopped worrying about it... I have made my plan, and if others haven't and believe what they are being fed, they are in for a rough road..

[syborg tt]

Okay so I have read 11 pages so far.

All I can say is he is from Chicago so he is a crooked as they come.

I would say more but I can't f-n stand the guy and his wife !!!

[Garage Dog 65]

So you now want the government holding media accountable? You can't simultaneously say government should get out of our lives and be tiny, and then demand they do everything.

While they could fine the station, real accountability for the media is from the consumers of it, if everyone stopped watching that station over this, then changes would occur.

The reality is one poor guy made a mistake, and I cannot imagine he was getting high fives from management about it. He'll be lucky to keep his job so to him at least, the repercussions will be pretty serious.

You might wanna re-read the post Real. Nowhere did Curtis say he wanted the government to hold media accountable.

But technically - the FCC could impose a fine on the affiliate if they wanted to, they have that power. just saying ...

I agree he'll be lucky to keep his job - most companies will not tolerate that kinda stuff even if it doesn't place their company/license in jeopardy. And IMO - that's exactly how that should work !

:thumbsup:

Jim

[GregWeld]

The reality is one poor guy made a mistake, and I cannot imagine he was getting high fives from management about it. He'll be lucky to keep his job so to him at least, the repercussions will be pretty serious.


The real reality of it is the ratings probably shot through the roof and he's secretly being high fived and back slapped. The advertisers will act appalled until they see the hits on the station website looking for the faux pas...


In europe -- this would be considered everyday TV. They're not nearly so serious.

[GregWeld]

Well -- I take back my post stating that "I HOPED" Obama was smart enough to realize that 50% of Americans DID NOT support him -- and maybe move to a middle ground course of governing. I - sadly - was very hopeful... but not anymore. The man just doesn't get it. Now stating that he has a mandate!?!? Really?? I call barely winning, anything but a mandate.


Today ----


President Barack Obama claimed a broad mandate for his vision on taxes at his first news conference since being re-elected, demanding that his negotiations with Congress yield a specific plan that results in a higher tax burden for the wealthiest Americans.
Speaking Wednesday at the White House, the president said that his recently-concluded campaign against Republican nominee Mitt Romney sent a "very clear message" as to which tax plan Americans prefer. Citing his decisive victory last Tuesday, Obama vowed to stand firm on asking the wealthy to shoulder a greater share of the tax burden.

[96z28ss]

MSNBC this morning was talking about how he wants to get rid of the ability to right off your mortgage interest on your taxes on a investment property or a 2nd home. funny how a few weeks changed his mind

[Garage Dog 65]

Wish I could have been in the room today for the business leaders meeting with the President. Hope some of that discussion gets printed somewhere without getting twisted by the left or right...

Just give me facts without all the spin .... plz ! :soapbox:

Jim

[tones2SS]

He's not a capitalist. He's also anti-American, IMO. Sad to say but, taxes are going up for everyone, probably more so for the rich. Gas/utility prices are going up and food prices are going up. I pray that I am wrong. My gut tells me this is what's coming down the pike. As if prices weren't high already. Wait till Obozo's HELLCARE kicks in full effect in 2014. (The debt outweighing the GDP is a VERY BAD SIGN. I get a kick out of the people that say it can't happen here. Really?!?!:rolleyes: China wants their money. And there's a ton of fake money out there. They want our land is what they want. Do a google search for China and taking America land. You'll be shocked and sickened.)
I don't believe in making the rich pay more or "their fair share". That's liberal diarrhea of the mouth if you ask me. If the rich don't spend money, who creates the jobs or keeps the economy moving? The lower class and middle class have no money to "spend", unless it's for food and bills. Seems like there's more people that pay taxes than those who don't. The number of welfare recipients went up with the imposter in chief as well. The bloodsuckers want more and more. Little do they know that they are giving into the communism that the imposter in chief wants.
I'll leave it at that, as I tend to get a lil' heated when talking politics. lol:D
GREAT THREAD by the way.

[Sieg]

What's he going to do when the wealthy aren't or they pack their bags?

As is there isn't enough of them wealthies to fill the hole dug under his watch.

[tones2SS]

What's he going to do when the wealthy aren't or they pack their bags?

As is there isn't enough of them wealthies to fill the hole dug under his watch.

Very true. He isn't done with making the national debt even larger. SCARY.

[Bucketlist2012]

We knew this is the man he is..We hoped for the best and hoped he would lead from the middle. I knew he wouldn't...He said so as a Senator what he would do. And now in a second term ? Watch out

But he said exactly what he would do back in 2007...So he is doing what he said he would do..For those that voted for him and expected something different ? Boy you better have a good plan, because he will crush both the democrats and the republicans in the middle class...

His speech today should send chills up your spine....He will fundamentally change America....He said he would...And it won't be in a good way..

[Z10ROD]

I think the tax issue is one of personal perspective. Most people look at their neighbor and think "they" must be rich or have a better job - etc. People tend to think everyone is better off than they are.

Here's my TAX perspective.

I'm the 1% guy that everyone hates... Too bad. In 2011 I bought almost a million dollars worth of cars - In Washington I pay 9.9% sales tax on those purchases. That's 100K to the state just in car tax alone.... forget the license fees etc.

I just bought a big truck - I paid 24K in FEDERAL excise tax and 20K in state tax - plus license fees.

This is the problem that people don't understand.... people spending money... is what makes an "economy"..... People NOT spending money creates a recession. If there is a recession... I will still live GREAT! But I might not spend as much money because I just don't have to, and or, I just don't feel like it. Who does that affect? It affects how much sales tax I pay -- it affects all the people that MIGHT have made money off me - thru commissions... profits... etc.

I don't mind paying taxes at all... I pay HUGE taxes (dollar wise).... I don't mind it. What I mind is people paying nothing - then bitching that their lives aren't good enough... that it's someone else's fault that their lives suck... and that the "government" should do more for them.

2/3rds of the Federal budget is now SOCIAL PROGRAMS.... it used to be 1/3rd of the budget. I would like to see that reversed so that we can get back to spending money on building and maintaining roads - improve our education system - national defense etc. In other words - I'd be HAPPY if I thought Obama was going to increase my taxes to build stuff - create stuff - etc. But his agenda is to take from me - and spend even more on "social programs". We have so many of them now we can't afford to pay our bills. I think that is what half the country is fed up with. The other half (according to the popular vote) seem to have their hands out...

all that said we should all pay the same rate lets say 25% ??

[Eleanor's Nemesis]

I'd like to see this archaic and punishing 'income tax', and all other taxes get kicked to the curb in favor of The Fair Tax.

23% National sales tax on most new goods, no more taxes on labor, property, investments, cell phones, electric bills, and no more 50,000 plus page tax code.

Increasing income tax rates on high earners will only entice them to shelter their earnings (or more of their earnings), increasing CG rates will only decrease the amount of realized gains and investment activity, all of which blows big holes in the amount of revenue to the Treasury. Not to mention new start-ups won't be able to start up due to the lack of Angel Investors and necessary capital which equals anemic job growth and zero economic expansion.

When that happens-a huge hole in revenue to the Treasury- the 'middle class' (how I despise that phrase) will really get it broke off up in 'em.

[IMPALA MAN]

Some people may not like this, however I too am in favor of the FAIR tax. The "Good Book" says to tythe 10% of your earnings. Not 10% up to $100,000 then 8%. Taxes should work the same way. Personally (some may not agree) but if you need a reduced tax rate to incentivize you to make more money, then....well then you should rethink your position. I also think it is wrong to make wealthy or poor pay more taxes than the other. It all should be an even % across the board.
That's my take.

[camcojb]

Some people may not like this, however I too am in favor of the FAIR tax. The "Good Book" says to tythe 10% of your earnings. Not 10% up to $100,000 then 8%. Taxes should work the same way. Personally (some may not agree) but if you need a reduced tax rate to incentivize you to make more money, then....well then you should rethink your position. I also think it is wrong to make wealthy or poor pay more taxes than the other. It all should be an even % across the board.
That's my take.

can you show me the tax table that gets lower as income goes up?

[Flash68]

Steve Forbes' FLAT TAX is where it is at. Simple and brings it all home. Equality. No entitlements. :thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

It's a big F'in mess that will be sorted out about the same time we have middle east peace. End thread.

[Sieg]

It's a big F'in mess that will be sorted out about the same time we have middle east peace. End thread.:thumbsup:

[syborg tt]

John Metz, Denny's Franchisee And Hurricane Grill & Wings Owner, Imposes Surcharge For Obamacare

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/13/john-metz-hurricane-grill-wings-dennys_n_2122412.html?utm_hp_ref=small-business&icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-sb-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D234886


While some business owners threaten to cut workers' hours to avoid paying for their health care, a West Palm Beach, Fla., restaurant owner is going even further. John Metz said he will add a 5 percent surcharge to customers' bills to offset what he said are the increased costs of Obamacare, along with reducing his employees' hours.

"If I leave the prices the same, but say on the menu that there is a 5 percent surcharge for Obamacare, customers have two choices. They can either pay it and tip 15 or 20 percent, or if they really feel so inclined, they can reduce the amount of tip they give to the server, who is the primary beneficiary of Obamacare," Metz told The Huffington Post. "Although it may sound terrible that I'm doing this, it's the only alternative. I've got to pass the cost on to the consumer."

Metz is the franchisor of Hurricane Grill & Wings, which has 48 locations, five of which are corporate owned, and president and owner of RREMC Restaurants, which runs approximately 40 Denny's and several Dairy Queen locations. He planned to use the 5 percent surcharge tactic in all his restaurants starting in January 2014, when Obamacare is fully implemented.

Do you work at one of John Metz's restaurants? The Huffington Post wants to hear from you. Please email [email protected] and [email protected].
As the first anti-Obamacare executive to bring up the surcharge option, Metz is "going out on a limb," Paul Fronstin, director of the health research program at the Employee Benefit Research Institute in Washington, told The Huffington Post. Still, surcharges have precedent. Fronstin pointed out that the airline industry charges fliers a 9/11 security fee.

Still, consumers have many more restaurant options than airline choices, and Fronstin speculated that Metz's move is more about politics than prices. Fronstin said that Metz and business owners, like coal company owner Robert Murray, who are blaming their extreme actions on Obamacare or on President Barack Obama himself may in fact be motivated by their own troubled business finances or political leanings.

"When you're blaming it on one thing and it's due to something else, you're basically making a political statement," Fronstin said. "And if you do something for political reasons, it can backfire, because someone else has the opportunity to come in and take the business away."

Metz said he will hold meetings at all his restaurants starting in December to discuss the surcharge and to tell employees "that because of Obamacare, we are going to be cutting front-of-the-house employees to under 30 hours, effective immediately."


Metz said he hopes the post-election meetings will inspire employees rather than alienate them. "What we're going to ask them to do is to speak to their elected officials, to try to convey what this means in terms of their jobs and their livelihoods," Metz said.

Metz said he understands the problems that will create not just for his scheduling but for his employees. "I think it's a terrible thing. It's ridiculous that the maximum hours we can give people is 28 hours a week instead of 40," Metz said. "It's going to force my employees to go out and get a second job."

Despite the one-two hit his employees might take with possibly fewer hours and lower tips, Metz said he is not anti-insurance. His current coverage for full-time employees costs him $5,000 to $6,000 annually, he said. "Obviously, I'd love to cover all our employees under that insurance," he said, "But to pay $5,000 per employee would cost us $175,000 per restaurant, and unfortunately, most of our restaurants don't make $175,000 a year. I can't afford it."

Currently, the law states that employers with more than 50 full-time equivalent employees will be charged a penalty for any employees over 30 full-time employees that they don't cover. Several employers have cited that provision -- including Darden Restaurants, Papa John's, Apple-Metro and Jimmy John's -- in announcing plans to skirt the law by cutting employees' hours to make them part time.

Metz said he will take the extra step of adding a surcharge because he believes the law will eventually expand to include penalties for not covering full-time equivalent employees. If he has to pay a penalty for his average 35 full-time equivalent employes per restaurant, he said it would cost him $75,000 per location. In that case, he said raising prices wouldn't be an option, since he'd have to raise prices about 25 percent to cover the costs of Obamacare, which would be "catastrophic" for his business.

A November Kaiser Health Tracking Poll found that about 43 percent of the population has a favorable opinion of Obamacare, while 39 percent has an unfavorable opinion. "Instead of indirectly charging customers by raising prices, he is directly charging and making a political statement," Fronstin said, "Potentially 43 percent of this person's customers may find the explicit charge a turnoff, and vote with their feet and their money and choose not to eat there."

Metz said he's risking the backlash to spread a message. "We're trying to get more restaurant operators rallied around the concept of adding a 5 percent surcharge to their bill to cover the costs of Obamacare as opposed to raising prices," he said.

[syborg tt]

Steve Forbes' FLAT TAX is where it is at. Simple and brings it all home. Equality. No entitlements. :thumbsup:

AMEN !!!

[GrabberGT]

John Metz, Denny's Franchisee And Hurricane Grill & Wings Owner, Imposes Surcharge For Obamacare

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/13/john-metz-hurricane-grill-wings-dennys_n_2122412.html?utm_hp_ref=small-business&icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-sb-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D234886




I've been curious how that works. Surely they've missed a footnote or fine print section that states that the Insurance prices will be reduced to offset the employers costs. :(

[syborg tt]

I've been curious how that works. Surely they've missed a footnote or fine print section that states that the Insurance prices will be reduced to offset the employers costs. :(

um our insurance costs are going up

[RECOVERY ROOM]

There is some damn good thoughts on this thread, And nobody got pissed at each other talking about it. Glad to be a member on this site. This is one of the only places I have seen that didnt turn a discussion in to a fight

[fleetus macmullitz]

This is one of the only places I have seen that didnt turn a discussion in to a fight

Maybe cuz we're just so glad Al is okay. ;)

[Flash68]

There is some damn good thoughts on this thread, And nobody got pissed at each other talking about it. Glad to be a member on this site. This is one of the only places I have seen that didnt turn a discussion in to a fight

:thumbsup:

[Sieg]

There is some damn good thoughts on this thread, And nobody got pissed at each other talking about it. Glad to be a member on this site. This is one of the only places I have seen that didn't turn a discussion in to a fight
Yes
Maybe cuz we're just so glad Al is okay. ;)
Yes
:thumbsup:
and Yes!

:lateral: :cheers:

[Bucketlist2012]

There is some damn good thoughts on this thread, And nobody got pissed at each other talking about it. Glad to be a member on this site. This is one of the only places I have seen that didnt turn a discussion in to a fight

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Yes, this site has great people on it.

I hope to meet some of you at an event someday...:lateral: :cheers:

[Blake Foster]

I've always said the same thing Greg. If you are collecting government assistance, you should either be working to improve society or indebted to the US Treasury. Meaning, you have to pay it back. Whether it's taking tax refunds to minor windfalls through garnishment. Of course a drug test should be mandatory every month.

But hey, I'm not a politician and could never get elected. You have to lie through your teeth to get in office. I'd rather tell it how it is......

It's never going to change. There will always be those that do and those that don't. There are getting to be a lot less doers so I'll juse forget about it. :lol:

I am WITH YOU!!! 100% why do we allow (IN CANADA, cuz i have no opinon on the US) people to just sit on their asses and collect EI or Welfare? there are highways to clean, so many things that these people could be doing, for their Checks, i am also 100% for mandatory drug testing to receive your benifets.
there should be no free lunches, you get up with the rest of us and put in a good days work and guess what then you get a check.
that's all

[tones2SS]

there should be no free lunches, you get up with the rest of us and put in a good days work and guess what then you get a check.
that's all

I agree with you, Todd and Greg. 1000%!:thumbsup:

[Bucketlist2012]

I agree with you guys... Drug Tests, and Work for your Checks...

[SuperSport]

I am WITH YOU!!! 100% why do we allow (IN CANADA, cuz i have no opinon on the US) people to just sit on their asses and collect EI or Welfare? there are highways to clean, so many things that these people could be doing, for their Checks, i am also 100% for mandatory drug testing to receive your benifets.
there should be no free lunches, you get up with the rest of us and put in a good days work and guess what then you get a check.
that's all

I always thought after a persons incarceration, his bill should be handed to him upon release. Please write check out to the state of ................