Somebody FREAKIN shoot me!!!!

[IMPALA MAN]

can you show me the tax table that gets lower as income goes up?

It would be the tax table that Warren Buffet's secretary uses.
The tax rate going down for higher income is no different than the tax rate going up for lower income.
Example: If Warren decreases his income, he pays more (percentage) tax.

[Eleanor's Nemesis]

It would be the tax table that Warren Buffet's secretary uses.
The tax rate going down for higher income is no different than the tax rate going up for lower income.
Example: If Warren decreases his income, he pays more (percentage) tax.

Not true. Warren Buffet's secretary pays a higher tax rate because her income is earned, Buffet's income is derived from investments and is taxed at the current Capital Gains rate.

We all pay the same federal income tax rates. There are some small caveats-like deployed military personel in war for example, but for most everyone else the rates are the same.

[Garage Dog 65]

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/warren-buffetts-tax-story-is-bogus/

Mr. Buffett pays 35% on his income. His “effective average tax rate” is way lower because most of his income comes from capital gains that had already been taxed, (you can't double tax income) or from income that is not taxed or has reduced taxes because the government wants people to invest their money in those areas and uses lower tax rates on those things as an incentive.

His secretary pays 15% on her income of the reported 60,000 per year salary.

When stuff like that seems unreasonable - it usually is...

Jim

[GregWeld]

I'll chime in here with real life taxes


I pay 15% income tax on my dividends (qualified dividends)

I pay ZERO on my tax free muni bonds

Without saying what I earn --- it is SUBSTANTIAL.... but my actual tax rate is quite low in percentage terms == especially when you figure some at zero. MY total tax bill will be far higher than most of you in dollar terms. I still only get one vote and drive on the same roads.

Now ---- I have that income because the MONEY that makes that money was already taxed at ordinary income taxes -- so the money that's left is ALL MINE.... now I just pay taxes on what it earns. Same as that simpleton Warren Buffet (I hate people that want to speak for me -- but are far richer -- and that old fart ought to just shut the hell up and write a big fat check to the IRS if he wants to pay more).:D


BTW --- I'd LOVE to see a flat tax -- corporate and personal --- ZERO deductions for ANYONE for ANYTHING. Just gross as much as you can and pay your percentage and be done with it. They could index the rates -- less for low earners -- more for the next bracket and hammer the top guys - but make it simple and easy. You gross X - you pay X. You want a big azz car and house - that's your problem not mine. :D

[Shmoov69]

There is some damn good thoughts on this thread, And nobody got pissed at each other talking about it. Glad to be a member on this site. This is one of the only places I have seen that didnt turn a discussion in to a fight

OH YEAH?!?! YOU GOTTA PROBLEM WITH THAT?!?! LOL!:lol:

And Greg, spot on man!!

[Fluid Power]

Drug testing Welfare recipients doesn't work:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/18/us/no-savings-found-in-florida-welfare-drug-tests.html?_r=0

That's from the NY times baby! Not some internet only rag!

Darren

[GregWeld]

Drug testing Welfare recipients doesn't work:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/18/us/no-savings-found-in-florida-welfare-drug-tests.html?_r=0

That's from the NY times baby! Not some internet only rag!

Darren



AH...... but here's the part you missed. And to most Americans it's probably the underlying sentiment. Sentiment IS IMPORTANT.


But supporters of the law said four months of numbers did little to discredit an effort they said was based on common sense. Drug users, no matter their numbers, should not be allowed to use taxpayer money, they said.

“We had to stop allowing tax dollars for anybody to buy drugs with,” said State Representative Jimmie T. Smith, a Republican who sponsored the bill last year. Taxpayer savings also come in deterring those drug users who would otherwise apply for cash assistance but now think twice because of the law, some argued.

[Fluid Power]

Apparently having money and doing whatever you please now days is frowned upon.




I think this is amazing truth. I grew up upper middle class and my best friend grew up SUPER wealthy. I was so driven after spending all of my middle-high school days being able to be apart of that family. I went to school and studied finance (like my friends father!) The point being is I wanted to be successful. I admired him and his accomplishments. These days, being successful almost seems like a stigma. My daily driver is 09 VW passat wagon! I sold the Porsche after taking heaps of **** from people in parking lots who didn't know me. My wife drives a Suburban, dumping the Benz after taking heat from people she didn't know. I don't live in a 90K foot house, nor do I live in a "ritzy" neighborhood. I choose to live out on some land and spend money on toys at home. The amount of 'kidding' I get for being successful at school functions, sporting events is unreal.

Darren

[syborg tt]

I'll chime in here with real life taxes

Okay, I'll also chime in last year my wife and I paid 36% of our salary to taxes. Plus we paid taxes on our bussiness earnings. It's brutal !!

But here is what most people forget we all pay Sales Tax & Property Tax.

I agree 4 years ago when Mr Obama got elected it history in the making. Prior to the election he made all kinds of promises. Then during is inaguration speech he said I may not be able to do everything in 4 years but if you elect me for a 2nd term I am certain I can get it done.

I laughed when he said it he was already setting himself up for failure. He might be a good person but them man has no experience getting people to work together and the last 4 years has proved it and I am certain the next four years will be just as bad.

I have countless customers that all have lowered there forecast and are letting people go prior to the first of the year. Some are just taking the easy road and telling people they can keep there jobs but now they will only have 28 scheduled hours.

It's simple Business owners are in business to make money. If the government takes money out of there gross profits. Where the hell do think the owners are going to take it. They are going to take it from there employee's. Some people will get let go to offset cost and if your one of the lucky one's that keeps your job I am sure you take on extra work without any additonal pay.

[GregWeld]

Apparently having money and doing whatever you please now days is frowned upon.




I think this is amazing truth. I grew up upper middle class and my best friend grew up SUPER wealthy. I was so driven after spending all of my middle-high school days being able to be apart of that family. I went to school and studied finance (like my friends father!) The point being is I wanted to be successful. I admired him and his accomplishments. These days, being successful almost seems like a stigma. My daily driver is 09 VW passat wagon! I sold the Porsche after taking heaps of **** from people in parking lots who didn't know me. My wife drives a Suburban, dumping the Benz after taking heat from people she didn't know. I don't live in a 90K foot house, nor do I live in a "ritzy" neighborhood. I choose to live out on some land and spend money on toys at home. The amount of 'kidding' I get for being successful at school functions, sporting events is unreal.

Darren




Darren....


I'm not saying right or wrong with your decision to dump the Porsche for a VW etc.

But it's the "dumbing down" of America that you're giving in to.

I drive a bunch of top end cars -- nobody gives me any grief about it. If they did - I'd look at them like they were zombies and I'd just consider "the source".

Personally -- I'm more than happy to be "wealthy". I pay plenty of taxes - I'm glad I have to... that means I'm doing okay. I don't live in a fancy house - I live in the house I love... with my shop right out the back door... in a quiet neighborhood. I've had 3 neighbors come over to ask about the new Freightliner in the driveway. They get excited when I say -- if you think that's big - wait 'til the new trailer gets here! They think it's great.

By the way --- me BUYING those things --- creates jobs --- I'm paying 9.9% state sales tax on them.... That tax alone is more than many people EARN. I'm okay with that. It's the price you pay for living in AMERICA.

[syborg tt]

Well said Greg

Now finish the bubble top at Iron Werks so I can buy it for 1/4 of what you put into.

Pretty Please !!! :hail:

[Sieg]

I've watched the "underground system" first hand for years around my workplace with local police using our business like a fish bowl so to speak.......adjancent properties house a convenience store/ gas station, methadone/mental health clinic, new 20 million dollar multi-story subsidized low-income housing, a non-profit food bank soup kitchen, and liquor store.

Approximately 80% of the convenience stores over-the counter sales are on Oregon's SNAP card (supplemental nutritional assistance program or food stamps) There is nothing nutritional about this stores inventory....not even a loaf of white bread. Though people buy Starbucks Frappuccinos on the card. I've seen people at the counter with five cards asking the clerk to check the balances. Basically they are bartering cards. Local hostiles teach travelers how to obtain cards which I believe have a minimum value of $200 per month.

Clients loitering outside the clinic are frequently observed selling their prescription medication for cash which typically goes to the convenience store for malt or hard liquor or used to buy weed and other drugs from the local street vendors.

The soup kitchen draws the most extreme meth addicts I've ever seen into the area and serves a high percentage of the local incurable drunks. Though they constantly publicize they do not serve visually intoxicated individuals. Watching parents with young children truly in need having to subject their children to that environment is nausiating as is the manager lying through her teeth when interviewed by local media then driving off in her BMW X5.

SNAP card holders also go to the local Safeway and hang out in the meat department soliciting customers to buy their meat for them at 50 cents on the dollar.

I've reported numerous vendor fraud violations to local state office that "monitors" the program only to get "vendor fraud is a federal issue that we are not responsible for" deflective answer.

The level of fraud within these programs accross the country has to be staggering and being managed by pro entitlement buraucracies compounds. Then there's the directors of non-profit living high on the hog while they deliver the absolute bare minimums to maximize their share of the grant money.

:willy:

[Fluid Power]

Darren....


I'm not saying right or wrong with your decision to dump the Porsche for a VW etc.

But it's the "dumbing down" of America that you're giving in to.

I drive a bunch of top end cars -- nobody gives me any grief about it. If they did - I'd look at them like they were zombies and I'd just consider "the source".

Personally -- I'm more than happy to be "wealthy". I pay plenty of taxes - I'm glad I have to... that means I'm doing okay. I don't live in a fancy house - I live in the house I love... with my shop right out the back door... in a quiet neighborhood. I've had 3 neighbors come over to ask about the new Freightliner in the driveway. They get excited when I say -- if you think that's big - wait 'til the new trailer gets here! They think it's great.

By the way --- me BUYING those things --- creates jobs --- I'm paying 9.9% state sales tax on them.... That tax alone is more than many people EARN. I'm okay with that. It's the price you pay for living in AMERICA.

I wouldn't say that the only reason I sold the Porsche was for the heat, but it was interesting none the less. My friends/family think it is great what I have done. I love the house we live in as well. I have a huge shop, my boy has a motocross track and I have all the toys to keep it in shape! My wife did get rid of her car because of the heat at work. I bought her a 07 e55 AMG. God I loved that car! She is a VP at a company and does extremely well. She plays "the game" in this company and it was more a political move, but the crap generated from a car was amazing!


Greg, you sound like my accountant! Be glad you can afford to pay taxes!

[IMPALA MAN]

I'll chime in here with real life taxes


I pay 15% income tax on my dividends (qualified dividends)

I pay ZERO on my tax free muni bonds

Without saying what I earn --- it is SUBSTANTIAL.... but my actual tax rate is quite low in percentage terms == especially when you figure some at zero. MY total tax bill will be far higher than most of you in dollar terms. I still only get one vote and drive on the same roads.

Now ---- I have that income because the MONEY that makes that money was already taxed at ordinary income taxes -- so the money that's left is ALL MINE.... now I just pay taxes on what it earns. Same as that simpleton Warren
Buffet (I hate people that want to speak for me -- but are far richer -- and that old fart ought to just shut the hell up and write a big fat check to the IRS if he wants to pay more).:D


BTW --- I'd LOVE to see a flat tax -- corporate and personal --- ZERO deductions for ANYONE for ANYTHING. Just gross as much as you can and pay your percentage and be done with it. They could index the rates -- less for low earners -- more for the next bracket and hammer the top guys - but make it simple and easy. You gross X - you pay X. You want a big azz car and house - that's your problem not mine. :D

I'm with you guys here. If the Buffet deal was incorrect, so be it. Just for the record, I think it should all be equal. If currently, the wealthy are paying higher taxes than the poor, that's just as wrong as the other way around IMO. FLAT TAX would fix it all.

[Sieg]

My wife did get rid of her car because of the heat at work. I bought her a 07 e55 AMG. God I loved that car!You should have painted it in a flat mundane color, added a few distressed areas for camoflauge, and put a couple Hybrid badges on it. :unibrow:

[Sieg]

I'm paying 9.9% state sales tax on them....This year. :D

[GregWeld]

THIS is the style of DEMOCRACY that I like.... NOT the Governments version.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50007300/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/#.ULeFraWhwwE

[syborg tt]

THIS is the style of DEMOCRACY that I like.... NOT the Governments version.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50007300/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/#.ULeFraWhwwE


I saw this this morning and I forwarded to my 12 year old daughter. Her response was "I can't believe people would just walk by him. I am happy that he stopped to help him. That was really nice."

[Shmoov69]

If he was a politician he would've taken the boots from someone else to give to the homeless dude! LOL!:yes:

That's awesome and its even better that someone captured it with all the bad press that comes out of NYC police department. :cheers:

[syborg tt]

If he was a politician he would've taken the boots from someone else to give to the homeless dude! LOL!:yes:

That's awesome and its even better that someone captured it with all the bad press that comes out of NYC police department. :cheers:

If it was Mr O he would have taken one of my shoe's to make it fair for both of us.

[tones2SS]

If he was a politician he would've taken the boots from someone else to give to the homeless dude! LOL!:yes:

You got it man.
That's what the bolshevik in the White House would do.

[GregWeld]

I completely disagree!


If it was a DEMOCRATIC congress -- with White House backing.... They'd have taxed you to buy a pair of shoes...They'd issue a government contract to pay $200 for the $100 pair of shoes they could have bought from a local retailer... they'd then rent a warehouse to store them in... and hire 10 people to run "the program"... then they'd tell the guy in the street that needs them -- that he doesn't qualify for a pair of shoes because he doesn't have an address and he didn't fill out the form correctly. Albeit NOBODY working for the "program" would be able to help him fill out the form correctly. Nor would they have the brains to look at the man - say - this is a man that needs a pair of shoes - walk into the warehouse and get him a pair.


THIS is what drives the average AMERICAN nuts!!!

[GregWeld]

BTW -- They (our government) would have first needed to STUDY the issues for several years -- and spend 100's of millions of dollars designing a special pair of shoes that would meet the persons requirements (according to the 200 million dollar "study").

[GregWeld]

BTW (2) -- The people running the said "shoes for the homeless program" -- which you'd need an address in order to receive a pair.... Nobody working there can actually equate the NAME of the program to the NEED....


Is run by someone that has spent 20 years in the "service" -- retired at 38 -- then spent another 20 years working at the Postal "service".... and then doesn't want the program to end by giving away the warehouse full of shoes -- because if they can get 5 more years of "government work" -- they'll retire with a pension that pays them 2 1/2 times per month what they're highest salary was - plus benefits - for life.

[Shmoov69]

You're on a roll Greg!! LOL!!:willy:

[57hemicuda]

The only thing I see you've forgot Greg, is then you have to spend tax payers money advertising on TV and radio to give the shoes away.

Love it here in Maryland, they have a media blitz for the food stamps program. Spending my money advertising, to give my money away. Heard a local congressman saying we are trying to make it so there is no shame in receiving food stamps, here in lies the problem. There needs to be a stigma in it, so you want to get off of it.

[tones2SS]

BTW -- They (our government) would have first needed to STUDY the issues for several years -- and spend 100's of millions of dollars designing a special pair of shoes that would meet the persons requirements (according to the 200 million dollar "study").

LOL
Too true Greg. Maybe when the next "stimulus" package comes out, they will donate about 100 million to that study. The government is good at wasting and taking our money.
Call it a "conspiracy theory", but I think it done on purpose to, 1) empty the pockets of those that pay taxes and "level the playing field" to those that are in the lower/poverty class and 2) to destroy the American dollar. Just my opinion. I'm too cynical.:D

[out2kayak]

So, my question to all posters is this: are you continuing to light a fire under your representatives?

I just sent mine yesterday. Would it be too much to ask you to do the same?

:cheers:

[Shmoov69]

Got a canned response. They don't give a flip!!:(

[GregWeld]

The only thing I see you've forgot Greg, is then you have to spend tax payers money advertising on TV and radio to give the shoes away.

Love it here in Maryland, they have a media blitz for the food stamps program. Spending my money advertising, to give my money away. Heard a local congressman saying we are trying to make it so there is no shame in receiving food stamps, here in lies the problem. There needs to be a stigma in it, so you want to get off of it.



OMG! Don't ya just love that! It's like making prisoners "comfortable"... Why would we want them to be comfortable, so they'll come back?

[Bucketlist2012]

You guys are on a roll. Especially Greg.

Kinda reminds me of the Community Reinvestment Act and Barney Frank and friends wanting to make Homeownership a right to be "fair"... If you could hold a pen and sign the papers....poof....The house is yours....Well not really yours, for that long anyways...

That didn't work out so well now did it ? Well actually for some of us it did seeing as 2009 was a great year to invest, but more most , the subprime lending was the opening of the barn door that let all the animals out..

Anytime government gets involved, it cost too much, takes too long, ends up screwing up the whole thing, and gets blamed on someone else..

[Bucketlist2012]

The only thing I see you've forgot Greg, is then you have to spend tax payers money advertising on TV and radio to give the shoes away.

Love it here in Maryland, they have a media blitz for the food stamps program. Spending my money advertising, to give my money away. Heard a local congressman saying we are trying to make it so there is no shame in receiving food stamps, here in lies the problem. There needs to be a stigma in it, so you want to get off of it.

Hey now, Pelosi said that giving away more food stamps would stimulate the economy:wow: :willy: :willy:

[intocarss]

Anytime government gets involved, it cost too much, takes too long, ends up screwing up the whole thing, and gets blamed on someone else..

THIS ^^

[GregWeld]

Hey now, Pelosi said that giving away more food stamps would stimulate the economy:wow: :willy: :willy:



Yeah -- let's see.... poor people (nothing wrong with them other than they are poor).. buy food and basics. Pay little or no taxes. Use the majority of "free" services.

I'm just a dumbazz 1 percenter.... I employ yard service people - pool people - property management people... buy tons of car parts and services... pay huge income taxes and property taxes... We travel a LOT so book airfares - use hotels - restaurants - taxis or rental cars etc... we use ZERO "free" services...

I wonder which one of us has more or less effect on the overall economy?:wow:

[GregWeld]

Just a JOKE guys --- but not far from the truth.....




Romney said, "When I'm elected, I will put Americans back to work," and 51% said, "Screw That!!":cheers:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Hey now, Pelosi said that giving away more food stamps would stimulate the economy:wow: :willy: :willy:

To: Nancy Pelosi et al...

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/wnyjazz/steve-mcqueen-the-king-of-cool-peop.jpg

[Sieg]

I'll estimate 95% of the people who's actions triggered the need to capture these photo's are receiving multiple levels of taxpayer funded support services.

http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/4430530_S2HmxR

[tones2SS]

Anytime government gets involved, it cost too much, takes too long, ends up screwing up the whole thing, and gets blamed on someone else..
BINGO!


Hey now, Pelosi said that giving away more food stamps would stimulate the economy:wow: :willy: :willy:
I know, right? I see how that works out.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[out2kayak]

Just to add some fuel to the fire, I ran into several articles on up and coming 401k plan changes:

http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/now-obama-wants-your-401k/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505146_162-38740927/obama-wants-to-steal-your-401k-and-why-you-should-be-glad/

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2012/02/12/cnn-money-reporter-says-obama-put-place-automatic-401k-enrollment-provis

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-125710

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1929233,00.html

The way I figure it, social security, etc. will all be bankrupt by the time I can retire. Thus, I have been plowing as much as possible into my 401k ever since I left the military.

Now, they want to grab that money. :(

At least they won't grab my taxable investments (oh, wait, they are!).

Sigh...

:cheers:

[Z10ROD]

:willy: so ya'll don't support POTUS ?

[Bucketlist2012]

:willy: so ya'll don't support POTUS ?

Nope....I have nothing against him personally..I don't know him..But as far as his policies ? Nope, I cannot support him.

I wish him no ill will or harm, but as a Leader ? Nope...

I understand the election is over and it is time to move on, but I don't believe in the direction he is taking us.:lateral: :cheers:

[GregWeld]

:willy: so ya'll don't support POTUS ?



Personally I respect the office... and I abide by the law... But I don't have to respect this particular Presidents ideals.

[Mkelcy]

Personally I respect the office... and I abide by the law... But I don't have to respect this particular Presidents ideals.

I can see that. Why would anyone respect a president who, for example, wants to see middle class Americans given a shot at decent wages and living conditions, who believes in education and passing on to our children a planet that's still viable, who respects the fundamental rights of all Americans to marry, serve in the armed forces and be treated with respect, and who thinks that it's not moral to balance the budget on the backs of the elderly through cuts to medicare and social security?

Yes, so much more reflective of American values to gut the safety net (and the promises made over the last 50 years) so we can give tax breaks to the obscenely wealthy and allow capitalists to flourish at the expense of both the country and its citizens.

[57hemicuda]

I can see that. Why would anyone respect a president who, for example, wants to see middle class Americans given a shot at decent wages and living conditions, who believes in education and passing on to our children a planet that's still viable, who respects the fundamental rights of all Americans to marry, serve in the armed forces and be treated with respect, and who thinks that it's not moral to balance the budget on the backs of the elderly through cuts to medicare and social security?

Yes, so much more reflective of American values to gut the safety net (and the promises made over the last 50 years) so we can give tax breaks to the obscenely wealthy and allow capitalists to flourish at the expense of both the country and its citizens.

Step away from the Kool-Aid before somebody gets hurt!!

[Shmoov69]

LOL!!:willy:

[GregWeld]

I can see that. Why would anyone respect a president who, for example, wants to see middle class Americans given a shot at decent wages and living conditions, who believes in education and passing on to our children a planet that's still viable, who respects the fundamental rights of all Americans to marry, serve in the armed forces and be treated with respect, and who thinks that it's not moral to balance the budget on the backs of the elderly through cuts to medicare and social security?

Yes, so much more reflective of American values to gut the safety net (and the promises made over the last 50 years) so we can give tax breaks to the obscenely wealthy and allow capitalists to flourish at the expense of both the country and its citizens.


I was just going to ignore this response because it's really more of a flame than a discussion of the issues. So far this thread has remained a fairly simple posts of peoples beliefs without rebuttal.

I don't think 'most' people want to see the gutting of the entitlements that hard working, tax paying Americans need. What I do think 'most' Americans would agree on is that many of these programs have become far too liberal and out of control. Obama Phones is just one tiny example of what most folks would think is "over the top".

So, the way America works is that we usually have to have a great debate. Then we can expose the weaknesses - throw around some ideas - radical on the left and right - and come back to a consensus with something that works for most.

Where we are in those debates (on many fronts) reminds me of the old hippie days with the girl putting a flower in the end of the barrel of a soldiers rifle. Obviously two quite opposite sides I'd say.

Here's my - to use your statement about gutting social programs - idea on Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. Rather than just raise taxes on everything and everyone... how about we modify these payouts in a reverse of paying taxes - in other words - the more you make - the less you get - and the less you make the MORE you get? Why should I get SS and Medicare etc -- I'm a 1% guy. I don't need these programs - and I'm perfectly happy NOT receiving them regardless of the fact that I've paid in. I have a buddy that gets SS and he opened up an auto deposit / auto pay account just so his check pays the lease on his Mercedes. To me - that's just plain wrong.
It is, however, equally wrong that my niece collects $600 a month because she had a baby out of wedlock that has a defective arm. His arm is just mildly deformed - and he's had 3 or 4 FREE surgeries in order to correct it. She's been getting this monthly payment since the day he was born. Does she put it into an account so he'll never have to work? Does this money come with ANY strings attached at all? NO... it's just pissed down a rat hole every month and looked at as "FREE MONEY" to spend. THAT IS WRONG and is the type of thing that needs to be stopped.

I'm a democratic republican. What I'd like to see happen is that people like me - the rich guys you hate - be denied SS etc -- and I'd like to see it go to REAL NEEDS of people that are barely getting by. BUT I don't want to see mine going to people like my niece.

Now -- what tax paying people are PO'd about is that they feel their money is WASTED. And rather than just being forced to pay add infinitum - they'd like to force a discussion and see some REAL changes to these "programs" BEFORE they just blindly send more dough into the waste pit called Washington DC.

[GregWeld]

You've all read or seen the stories about the shoeless NYC guy...


To me - this is a person that obviously needs far more "help" than he's getting and I for one don't mind paying my taxes to help him... He needs MORE help not less. I need NO help per my earlier post.

This LINK is NOT the original story -- this is a NEW STORY about this man and I'm posting it just in case you all missed it. I find it a very interesting twist on the clearer picture and total of "the story".

http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2012/12/04/15672901-still-shoeless-man-in-viral-photo-not-homeless-officials-say?lite

[Garage Dog 65]

What does all this have to do with Kate Middleton's morning sickness and the royal baby buzz ?????

And OMG will it be a boy or a girl ?

And OMG what will it's name be ?


Will you guys get focused on the really important stuff !

(maybe I should turn off the tv ...)


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Jim

[Sieg]

I can see that. Why would anyone respect a president who, for example, wants to see middle class Americans given a shot at decent wages and living conditions, who believes in education and passing on to our children a planet that's still viable, who respects the fundamental rights of all Americans to marry, serve in the armed forces and be treated with respect, and who thinks that it's not moral to balance the budget on the backs of the elderly through cuts to medicare and social security?

Yes, so much more reflective of American values to gut the safety net (and the promises made over the last 50 years) so we can give tax breaks to the obscenely wealthy and allow capitalists to flourish at the expense of both the country and its citizens.

I'm definitely middle class and don't see any action that will help middle class America. I see a lot of smoke being blown up naïve orifices. Decent wages and living conditions start with jobs. Jobs start with embracing small businesses with incentive programs to create jobs.

I see middle-American's getting back-doored with hidden taxes in the form a rate increases from the over-staffed over-paid bureaucracies. Small businesses that aren't unionized will continue to be handicapped with unrealistic sub-contractor compliance regulations. Health care costs for small business and individuals packaged with poor service quality will continue to escalate.

Our children are 11 & 14 and while our schools are better than average, they don't generate a good education. They teach mediocrity, entitlement, and poor fundamental manners (behavior/attire/responsibility/etc.)

They learn that respect is not earned it's an entitlement. They learn that an 8 month 32 hour 5 day work week is too much. They learn how to supplement holiday leave with fictional days off. They learn that Mac is superior to the PC platform. They learn how to solicit for donations. They learn that obese is the norm. They lean that pizza, nacho's, and soda are good nutrition. The learn that art and music are more important than shop and home economics. They learn that being reprimanded for unacceptable behavior is not that bad. They learn that trying to achieve at higher levels than others is frowned upon. They learn that even if you don't win you still get a trophy and accolades. They learn the American Flag and National Anthem are offensive to others.

They also learn at lunch every day that they are of an ethnicity that isn't worthy of accolades and special accommodations.......and they don't have the right to find it offensive.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-HgVZkTL/0/XL/i-HgVZkTL-XL.jpg

:rolleyes:

[96z28ss]

It is, however, equally wrong that my niece collects $600 a month because she had a baby out of wedlock that has a defective arm. His arm is just mildly deformed - and he's had 3 or 4 FREE surgeries in order to correct it. She's been getting this monthly payment since the day he was born. Does she put it into an account so he'll never have to work? Does this money come with ANY strings attached at all? NO... it's just pissed down a rat hole every month and looked at as "FREE MONEY" to spend. THAT IS WRONG and is the type of thing that needs to be stopped.



What needs to be also fixed is they collect welfare all year long, then at the end of the year they get a damn tax return. How can you get a tax return when the income you've made came from welfare? That is just wrong.

[DBasher]

Well said Sieg
:thumbsup:

Dan

[Bucketlist2012]

I can see that. Why would anyone respect a president who, for example, wants to see middle class Americans given a shot at decent wages and living conditions, who believes in education and passing on to our children a planet that's still viable, who respects the fundamental rights of all Americans to marry, serve in the armed forces and be treated with respect, and who thinks that it's not moral to balance the budget on the backs of the elderly through cuts to medicare and social security?

Yes, so much more reflective of American values to gut the safety net (and the promises made over the last 50 years) so we can give tax breaks to the obscenely wealthy and allow capitalists to flourish at the expense of both the country and its citizens.

I live in California, and soon you will see what the super majority does to what is left of the state.

They were going to ask the people about raising taxes...Just wait.They don't have to now..It will be all closed door decisions...They are going to gut Prop. 13.. Why ? To pay for the ballooning budget they cannot afford..For a bullet Train to nowhere...To fund education ? Sure the Professors at the Universities for one. The 300,000 dollar speaking fees for ONE speech at a University...And who gets gutted by repealing Prop 13 ? The old couple living in their home for 30 years living on Social Security...You know, the one's who pay on a 80K home value that will now go up to 400K value just to support failed and outrageous policies...Ya, that sounds moral and compassionate all right. The elderly will pay and some will lose their homes.

And the last 4 years..2 with a full Democratic power ? Paybacks like Solyndra, Nancy Pelosi's Brother in law's Solar company in Nevada that would have to sell a Kilowatt at an outrageous price just to break even, and other "paybacks" to donors that got Obama elected...All before considering working on Jobs and the economy...No transparency...

Then in 2006, Obama says that raising the debt ceiling is UnAmerican and shows that the leader is not doing his job, yet he wants, in 2013, to bypass Congress and to raise the debt ceiling..Not to mention the 16 plus trillion dollar debt that the Interest alone will crush the nation..So now it is not Unamerican ? Which is it, he cannot have both.

And the middle class ? First they want to tax the 1%...Suddenly it became the 2%...I am just waiting for it to be the 10%, and it will, don't fool yourself, it will fall onto the middle class eventually..

Ya, I don't support those policies because I live in a state that is a micro version of things to come...And the nation will follow suit with the policies of California...And with a Super Majority, The democrats will own the bailout of California that they will be asking for from the feds..Because eventually there will be not enough people to bleed dry...

[Bucketlist2012]

P.S. We have all been adults about this thread, and let's keep it that way.

It is good to have the discussion, but as long as we moderate ourselves, the site moderators won't have to ..:cheers: :lateral:

[GregWeld]

And who gets gutted by repealing Prop 13 ? The old couple living in their home for 30 years living on Social Security...You know, the one's who pay on a 80K home value that will now go up to 400K value just to support failed and outrageous policies...Ya, that sounds moral and compassionate all right. The elderly will pay and some will lose their homes.


Here's the problem with LAWS.... they tend to be too broad - and all encompassing.

PROP 13 was meant to protect against what you're saying.... the problem is - like rent controlled apartments etc - and SS - and Medicare/Medicaid et al -- is that there aren't the proper selections and controls in place to protect/help those that the law intended to -- while limiting the "help" to those that don't need it. People will ALWAYS take advantage of anything "FREE". We all know there is no real "FREE" -- there is no "FREE" healthcare -- it's free to someone but costs someone else...

Here's where I'm TOTALLY democratic -- I think the elderly and the poor - and the incapable should get MORE help..... and those that can afford to forego such help should. A millionaire living in a house for 25 years shouldn't get a friggin' property tax break.... he shouldn't get SS or Medicare either...

BUT until you fix crap like that -- the REPUBLICAN in me says STOP SPENDING. When you put limits on things -- THEN we'll actually have to figure out a budget etc that does what it's SUPPOSE TO DO. Then everyone will be better off. :cheers:

BUT I HATE the "democratic" version of everyone gets something for nothing - don't cut anything - just spend spend spend and screw the rich idiots (that EMPLOY the democrats).

[GregWeld]

I'm definitely middle class and don't see any action that will help middle class America. I see a lot of smoke being blown up naïve orifices. Decent wages and living conditions start with jobs. Jobs start with embracing small businesses with incentive programs to create jobs.

I see middle-American's getting back-doored with hidden taxes in the form a rate increases from the over-staffed over-paid bureaucracies. Small businesses that aren't unionized will continue to be handicapped with unrealistic sub-contractor compliance regulations. Health care costs for small business and individuals packaged with poor service quality will continue to escalate.

Our children are 11 & 14 and while our schools are better than average, they don't generate a good education. They teach mediocrity, entitlement, and poor fundamental manners (behavior/attire/responsibility/etc.)

They learn that respect is not earned it's an entitlement. They learn that an 8 month 32 hour 5 day work week is too much. They learn how to supplement holiday leave with fictional days off. They learn that Mac is superior to the PC platform. They learn how to solicit for donations. They learn that obese is the norm. They lean that pizza, nacho's, and soda are good nutrition. The learn that art and music are more important than shop and home economics. They learn that being reprimanded for unacceptable behavior is not that bad. They learn that trying to achieve at higher levels than others is frowned upon. They learn that even if you don't win you still get a trophy and accolades. They learn the American Flag and National Anthem are offensive to others.

They also learn at lunch every day that they are of an ethnicity that isn't worthy of accolades and special accommodations.......and they don't have the right to find it offensive.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-HgVZkTL/0/XL/i-HgVZkTL-XL.jpg

:rolleyes:




I'M GIVING THIS POST A STANDING OVATION!


Why have we become the SILENT MAJORITY???

[Shmoov69]

Nail..... Head..... You HIT it!!!
Don't forget how immensely important sports is as well!! :hail:

I'm definitely middle class and don't see any action that will help middle class America. I see a lot of smoke being blown up naïve orifices. Decent wages and living conditions start with jobs. Jobs start with embracing small businesses with incentive programs to create jobs.

I see middle-American's getting back-doored with hidden taxes in the form a rate increases from the over-staffed over-paid bureaucracies. Small businesses that aren't unionized will continue to be handicapped with unrealistic sub-contractor compliance regulations. Health care costs for small business and individuals packaged with poor service quality will continue to escalate.

Our children are 11 & 14 and while our schools are better than average, they don't generate a good education. They teach mediocrity, entitlement, and poor fundamental manners (behavior/attire/responsibility/etc.)

They learn that respect is not earned it's an entitlement. They learn that an 8 month 32 hour 5 day work week is too much. They learn how to supplement holiday leave with fictional days off. They learn that Mac is superior to the PC platform. They learn how to solicit for donations. They learn that obese is the norm. They lean that pizza, nacho's, and soda are good nutrition. The learn that art and music are more important than shop and home economics. They learn that being reprimanded for unacceptable behavior is not that bad. They learn that trying to achieve at higher levels than others is frowned upon. They learn that even if you don't win you still get a trophy and accolades. They learn the American Flag and National Anthem are offensive to others.

They also learn at lunch every day that they are of an ethnicity that isn't worthy of accolades and special accommodations.......and they don't have the right to find it offensive.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-HgVZkTL/0/XL/i-HgVZkTL-XL.jpg

:rolleyes:

[Mkelcy]

Maybe we just narrow the discussion a bit and take it point by point: Obama wants to continue the Bush tax cuts for everyone making less that $250,000/year. Does anyone here object to that?

[GregWeld]

Maybe we just narrow the discussion a bit and take it point by point: Obama wants to continue the Bush tax cuts for everyone making less that $250,000/year. Does anyone here object to that?



NOPE! Not as long as it comes with SPENDING CUTS. And that's the bargaining chip. Higher taxes are FINE IF they come with entitlement cuts.

Obviously that's where the two idiot sides need to get their shiat together.

As stated earlier -- NOT entitlement cuts that hurt the people that need them.

[camcojb]

NOPE! Not as long as it comes with SPENDING CUTS. And that's the bargaining chip. Higher taxes are FINE IF they come with entitlement cuts.

Obviously that's where the two idiot sides need to get their shiat together.

As stated earlier -- NOT entitlement cuts that hurt the people the need them.

REAL spending cuts. Not Washingtons "spending cuts". Cuts to what you're actually spending today, not cuts to future growth that still mean we're spending more tomorrow than today, we just don't increase it as much. :rolleyes:

Mike, I'm for giving your side everything they want that's constitutional. Let's find out if the Dems/Obamas vision to fix the economy will work. Best case, it works which benefits everyone and we all learn something. Worst case, the economy crashes, and again we learn something. Just make sure that everyone knows who's plan is being followed so there's no confusion or blame put on the other side if it doesn't work as planned.

[Mkelcy]

NOPE! Not as long as it comes with SPENDING CUTS. And that's the bargaining chip. Higher taxes are FINE IF they come with entitlement cuts.

Obviously that's where the two idiot sides need to get their shiat together.

As stated earlier -- NOT entitlement cuts that hurt the people the need them.

I'm not sure I understand why you want to go after "entitlements" rather than, say, bullet trains or military spending.

I'm going to retire in a few years, with some savings both after tax and tax deferred. My savings are probably enough that I might be hit by your desire for a need test on benefits that I will have paid for for over 50 years. Why is that the best way to reduce the debt?

Moreover, I don't see anything in the Republican plans that looks like a needs test, all I see is across the board cuts. Again, why is that the best way to reduce the deficit, particularly while resisting any change to the top tax rates?

Tax savings for the 1% aren't going to be immediately recirculated in the economy because the 1% simply don't need that money day-to-day; tax savings for the 99%, on the other hand, are likely going to be spent and help the economy.

I agree there's a lot of government waste but most of what people are talking about here (Solyndra, Obama phones, Medicare disability payments) is down in the budgetary noise. If you want to reduce the deficit, increase taxes, reduce military spending and invest in this country (decent education, infrastructure and, yes, alternative energy), so we can increase GDP and, as a result, the taxable base.

[Garage Dog 65]

‘Invest’ in 'decent' Education ???

I don’t see how continuing to pour more and more money into the education system will in any way fix the actual problem(s). Check around and see how much of every tax dollar heads to education from your county, state and national taxes – and everyone still says our education system is terrible. I don’t see how that’s possible unless the money isn’t spent correctly – and a lot isn’t.

How has the curriculum for K-12 changed that much over the years? Science and technology yes – but the basics haven’t changed that much - Reading/Writing, Math, Chemistry, Physics, History…

And now we’re talking about how every kid has the right to a college education – read that as free by the way… Not sure who gets to pay for that.

Root Cause: These days we refuse to look at the actual causes of problems and seek to fix those because everyone is so entrenched in their ‘sides’ positions and theology and fight to maintain ‘their’ ground. There is no low hanging fruit anymore, very few easy decisions. There are big, difficult decisions that need to be made and put into effect – but the country is so divided I really don’t see much progress being made in any direction.

[Bucketlist2012]

I can agree with all the last few posts to a degree...Jody I think that trying something and seeing where it goes is good but being that the media are liars we will never know who to blame if things don't work..No one wants to take the blame.they want the credit if it goes right, and they shift the blame if it goes wrong..

I can agree with alternative energy to a point...It is a great addition to the grid...It is not the answer to energy problems..I spent 10 years in Solar...

And lastly it is always my way or the highway when it comes to politicians ...In taxes, spending, alternative energy, ect...

A moderate approach that is best for the nation would be the answer, but both sides believe it is my way or else...Spending cuts and taxes would be a good choice ,it is just finding the mix.

Adding alternative energy to the grid would be great, but don't try to paint Oil as evil and that it needs to be replaced.. It is here to stay..Adding nat gas to the trucking industry and adding green energy to the grid would be a start.

Same with any policy. :cheers:

[syborg tt]

‘Invest’ in 'decent' Education ???

I don’t see how continuing to pour more and more money into the education system will in any way fix the actual problem(s). Check around and see how much of every tax dollar heads to education from your county, state and national taxes – and everyone still says our education system is terrible. I don’t see how that’s possible unless the money isn’t spent correctly – and a lot isn’t.

How has the curriculum for K-12 changed that much over the years? Science and technology yes – but the basics haven’t changed that much - Reading/Writing, Math, Chemistry, Physics, History…

And now we’re talking about how every kid has the right to a college education – read that as free by the way… Not sure who gets to pay for that.

Root Cause: These days we refuse to look at the actual causes of problems and seek to fix those because everyone is so entrenched in their ‘sides’ positions and theology and fight to maintain ‘their’ ground. There is no low hanging fruit anymore, very few easy decisions. There are big, difficult decisions that need to be made and put into effect – but the country is so divided I really don’t see much progress being made in any direction.

I have a friend that worked in the local High School as a Teacher. The school paid for his/her Masters and when he/she graduated they automatically received a $25,000.00 increase in salary. This increase put his/her salary in the 6 figure mark which really seems high for a High School teacher.

I'm not saying that he/she didn't deserve the salary but if you take a school that has over 100 teachers in it and you add up all of the big dollar salary's and the fact that we also pay for the pension & continued education.

Eventually we are all going to be broke paying property taxes and income taxes.

[GregWeld]

[QUOTE=Garage Dog 65;449905]‘Invest’ in 'decent' Education ???

I don’t see how continuing to pour more and more money into the education system will in any way fix the actual problem(s)./QUOTE]



I cut the quote short -- because this first statement is enough.


From my Sister in Law whom happens to be a teacher.

There are only so many hours in a class day. Since the 60's we have added all manor of courses to teach -- but not a single increase in class hours or days to the school year.

A day is now divided into about 8 or 9 subjects - including breaks, lunch and assemblies etc. Add to this the number of increased days off for 'teacher workshops' etc. A classroom day used to be MATH, WRITING, READING, SOCIAL STUDIES, AND ENGLISH. You actually had enough time to teach these basic subjects. They then added Sex Ed - Language - Music - Art - Science - Physical Ed.

You know -- it makes sense to me.... You just can't spend enough time TEACHING basics let alone all the "other stuff" that we used to do AFTER SCHOOL.

[GregWeld]

I have a friend that worked in the local High School as a Teacher. The school paid for his/her Masters and when he/she graduated they automatically received a $25,000.00 increase in salary. This increase put his/her salary in the 6 figure mark which really seems high for a High School teacher.

I'm not saying that he/she didn't deserve the salary but if you take a school that has over 100 teachers in it and you add up all of the big dollar salary's and the fact that we also pay for the pension & continued education.

Eventually we are all going to be broke paying property taxes and income taxes.


I totally disagree with this statement. There is NOTHING more important to the future of this country than EDUCATION. We're getting beat world wide because of other countries turning out more and better engineers - scientists - programmers etc. I live in BELLEVUE the home of Microsoft - Amazon - etc -- and this place looks like a friggin' foreign country! It's because these companies (claim) that they can't hire enough people otherwise! That's SAD....

What's WRONG -- is that we love it when a football player gets 50 million a year (the fact that he can't speak english bothers me since he supposedly graduated college!) .... but educators, fireman, policeman and schools are looked at as the first place to cut the budget.

[GregWeld]

I'm not sure I understand why you want to go after "entitlements" rather than, say, bullet trains or military spending.

I'm going to retire in a few years, with some savings both after tax and tax deferred. My savings are probably enough that I might be hit by your desire for a need test on benefits that I will have paid for for over 50 years. Why is that the best way to reduce the debt?

I doubt (but hope you are!) that you're earnings on savings will get you into the 1% category where I think the needs testing should be done. If you're going to make $300 or 400K in interest in retirement kudos to you. If that's the case you would be on my side of this discussion.

Moreover, I don't see anything in the Republican plans that looks like a needs test, all I see is across the board cuts. Again, why is that the best way to reduce the deficit, particularly while resisting any change to the top tax rates?

You seem to be like a lot of people and just believe what you read or hear on TV. BOTH sides are going to the extreme before they come back to some agreement somewhere closer to the middle. Don't believe the "facts" or talking points just because they're forwarded in the headlines. Its called posturing.

Tax savings for the 1% aren't going to be immediately recirculated in the economy because the 1% simply don't need that money day-to-day; tax savings for the 99%, on the other hand, are likely going to be spent and help the economy.

The 1% ARE the economy.... and what happens is that when they stop spending YOU don't have a job. They'll be fine - you will suck. "You" doesn't mean you personally but an overall you. I agree that I won't miss a beat if I'm taxed higher -- and I've personally stated that I don't mind a tax increase at all. But you aren't reading well or listening well. What has been said time and time again is that people are FINE with tax increases on the top earners - BUT!!! BIG BUTT!!! It SHOULD come with some controls or reductions in RUN AWAY SPENDING.

I agree there's a lot of government waste but most of what people are talking about here (Solyndra, Obama phones, Medicare disability payments) is down in the budgetary noise. If you want to reduce the deficit, increase taxes, reduce military spending and invest in this country (decent education, infrastructure and, yes, alternative energy), so we can increase GDP and, as a result, the taxable base.


SO here's the deal. If you make $500 a week -- you'll spend $500 a week - if I give you $600 a week you'll spend that and if I gave you $700 a week you'd spend that. You'd keep spending as long as the money keeps pouring in. You wouldn't stop and take a look at your "budget" until someone came and said -- HEY! You're spending too much and now you're only going to get $600 a week. How you'd cut your spending is a problem for you. After all.... you NEED that new car.... and you NEED that big azz TV... What people are TRYING to say is that until you get REAL and start to really look at and revise these programs and reel them in to do their intended use -- we have a problem with that! But NOBODY is going to take a real look at this unless there's some feet to the fire and that will take some CUTTING.

I don't know ANYONE that wants to see these programs cut out - or cut so that people get harmed... But what needs to be done is that they need to be constrained enough that someone cuts the crap out! AND if you don't think there's a HUGE amount of crap --- then there's no point on which we can agree.

[tones2SS]

:willy: so ya'll don't support POTUS ?

I don't support his "idea for America" that's for sure. Not one iota.
As far as the spending cuts, I want to believe that it will stop, but that will never happen now. There is some much fake money out there right now, it's sickening.

[Garage Dog 65]

We spend way too much money for such a small return on investment. (If public education were run like a business - most of the leaders and staff would get canned)

How can other countries that do turn out these great engineers, doctors and scientists do it at a fraction of the cost that our system does? I doubt it's because their teachers are raking in massive salaries.

We focus on the wrong stuff. It's not that I don't believe education is one of the most important fuels for our country/economy to be competitive - it's that we jack up the dollars spent every year for education without even a reasonable increase in how the system and the student performs. Every year the politicians run on the goal of increasing education spending and seldom to never talk about devising ways to ensure the system’s performance improves and accountability for the dollars spent.

Basically the fundamental problem with government when it gets away from the 5 or 6 things they should work on (defense, borders, etc…) – and get themselves into areas like Education where they perform poorly at best.

[GregWeld]

I agree there's a lot of government waste but most of what people are talking about here (Solyndra, Obama phones, Medicare disability payments) is down in the budgetary noise.



It is EXACTLY this sort of thinking that has gotten the US into the mess it is in. Nothing in the way of spending seems to be "important enough" to look at. It's ONLY 3 billion for this -- or ONLY 100 billion for that... nothing really very important.


I ask you --- is this the way you run your budget? Nothing ever gets a look -- every dime going out is absolutely necessary? You never try to revisit any expense to see if there are some savings to be had?

Now -- if you tell me that you can't cut your house payment - you can't possibly cut your TWO or THREE car payments - you can't do without electricity and water or dinner out ONLY one night a week... I might understand...

...BUT you're coming to me and asking me to pay for those items aren't you? And since I don't pay enough - you're okay with that 'cause you'll just borrow it (at my expense) from someone else... and then while you're at it -- what the hell -- going out 2 nights a week just isn't that big of an extra expense - so why not. And when you fail at controlling your expenses -- you should have no conscience telling me that I owe you more...Why? Because I have extra and you pissed yours all away.

WOW.... is all I have to say about that way of thinking. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

We spend way too much money for such a small return on investment. (If public education were run like a business - most of the leaders and staff would get canned)

How can other countries that do turn out these great engineers, doctors and scientists do it at a fraction of the cost that our system does? I doubt it's because their teachers are raking in massive salaries.

We focus on the wrong stuff. It's not that I don't believe education is one of the most important fuels for our country/economy to be competitive - it's that we jack up the dollars spent every year for education without even a reasonable increase in how the system and the student performs. Every year the politicians run on the goal of increasing education spending and seldom to never talk about devising ways to ensure the system’s performance improves and accountability for the dollars spent.

Basically the fundamental problem with government when it gets away from the 5 or 6 things they should work on (defense, borders, etc…) – and get themselves into areas like Education where they perform poorly at best.


Totally agree....


Your government is here to help you!


:faint: :rofl:

[bdahlg68]

I'll help out on the "how the heck are other countries doing this" type of question at least from the ignorant view of a business traveler abroad.

I live in Northville, MI - pretty well to do area for Metro Detroit. Not by any means the "richest" - but pretty decent. Their high school is like a freakin Taj Mahal. HUGE.... BRAND NEW (well, a few years old now) .... no expense spared type of place. Same can be said for most of the cities nearby (e.g. South Lyon, and maybe Novi but not sure). At 2:20pm, traffic coming out of the school is a nightmare. And the county is looking for more money to spend on "upgrades" ????

I travel to China.... well, sort of.... SHANGHAI at least. Just walked around the Hongqaio area last week and the high school looks like a POS from the outside. The kids drive scooters, not late model BMW's or brand new cars. They were getting out of school at 7pm!

I travel to Germany. Not big city Germany, but more rural northern Germany. No Taj Mahal's to be seen. The teachers there are paid well... and from what I understand, PAY NO TAX ON THEIR TEACHING INCOME.

Point being that most of these other countries - when you talk about a school, that's what you are talking about. Not about it being pretty, or having lots of windows, or being brand new, or no more than 10 kids in a class, or whatever else. It's a space to teach... and that's about it. And they beat it home and society / parents put extreme importance on school. I'd say this is a bit different hear. I'm sure we are more successful in certain aspects of school. Just not in all of them... including some important ones!

[Sieg]

I'M GIVING THIS POST A STANDING OVATION!


Why have we become the SILENT MAJORITY???

Because our kids educators instill it in them from grade school on. But only in the larger cities, rural farming communities still have core values harmonious with those of our founding fathers.

Reality is we are not the majority any more. :(

[Mkelcy]

There are many issues in the air here.

On education: do some reading on the Finnish educational system - they don't test; they surely don't use standardized tests; teachers are highly paid and even more respected; they view investment in their kids as critically important; oh, and they are also one of the most successful public school systems in the world. Note that none of those statements are (generally speaking) true of our educational system.

Next, the notion that the 1% are the economy is just utter BS. The vast majority of the 1% are executives who have played the corporate political game well, Wall Street vulture capitalists of various stripes who have manipulated financial instruments of various kinds (including corporate LBO's, junk bonds and so on), folks with inherited wealth and so on. The folks making $1,000,000 or more per year aren't, so far as I can, see job creators: they are the lucky beneficiaries of the visionaries who were, in fact, the job creators or are manipulating the legacies of those same job creators. Mostly the 1% are corporate executives (aka job exporters) and financial manipulators who have never created anything.

The "job creators" are folks like my gardener who has 2 employees on his payroll, the guy who painted my house recently, and all the other small shops and businesses throughout this country. With each job they create, their employees can afford to consume more goods, the fortune 500 companies run by the 1% get to sell more stuff and claim to be "job creators."

What this thread does demonstrate is that, as a nation, our values are seriously out of whack.

[Mkelcy]

You seem to be like a lot of people and just believe what you read or hear on TV. BOTH sides are going to the extreme before they come back to some agreement somewhere closer to the middle. Don't believe the "facts" or talking points just because they're forwarded in the headlines. Its called posturing.

Thanks for the condescending comment; yes as you intuited, I'm simply a slave to TV news (which I never watch) and utterly believe eveything they say without question because, as you guessed, I'm simply too stupid to think for myself.

And my 35 years of negotiating multi-million dollar deals never gave me any insight into, what did you call it - "posturing"? Again, thanks for the insight. Before your tip, I always thought that the initial offer made was where the other side wanted to end up.

It must be nice to be a Tom Wolfian "Master of the Universe."

[Shmoov69]

What this thread does demonstrate is that, as a nation, our values are seriously out of whack.

AMEN!!! We agree on something!!! LoL!!:cheers:
Just not what exactly is "out of whack" tho. :(

[Sieg]

Nail..... Head..... You HIT it!!!
Don't forget how immensely important sports is as well!! :hail:
My wife's side of the family are all rural area working class teachers and the family is three generations deep in teaching. My in-laws were 30 year middle school Physical Education retiree's (Steve Prefontaine was their student, his sister is a friend), Uncle coached the State Champ 6 man football team, his son coaches the just crowns State AAAA Champions, niece played volleyball for the U of O and coached her High School VB team, her husband is the Varsity B-ball Coach. The in-laws, aunts, and uncles all grew up on the family ranch/farm that we still run.

There are some interesting conversations surrounding major metro education practices at our family functions that wouldn't be considered politically correct. :yes:


PERS distribution is public info and our 4 senior retirees individual annual income is between $31-$35,000, Oregon's last football coach Mike Bellotti (also a friend) retired a couple years ago and his PERS income is $42,000 A MONTH!

Another friend who started in patrol and ended up being Chief of Police receives $9,200 a month for his 30 years of service.......he retired at 51.

We understand Phys Ed and the PERS plan leading the state into bankruptcy. :thumbsup:

[ironworks]

There are many issues in the air here.

On education: do some reading on the Finnish educational system - they don't test; they surely don't use standardized tests; teachers are highly paid and even more respected; they view investment in their kids as critically important; oh, and they are also one of the most successful public school systems in the world. Note that none of those statements are (generally speaking) true of our educational system.

Next, the notion that the 1% are the economy is just utter BS. The vast majority of the 1% are executives who have played the corporate political game well, Wall Street vulture capitalists of various stripes who have manipulated financial instruments of various kinds (including corporate LBO's, junk bonds and so on), folks with inherited wealth and so on. The folks making $1,000,000 or more per year aren't, so far as I can, see job creators: they are the lucky beneficiaries of the visionaries who were, in fact, the job creators or are manipulating the legacies of those same job creators. Mostly the 1% are corporate executives (aka job exporters) and financial manipulators who have never created anything.

The "job creators" are folks like my gardener who has 2 employees on his payroll, the guy who painted my house recently, and all the other small shops and businesses throughout this country. With each job they create, their employees can afford to consume more goods, the fortune 500 companies run by the 1% get to sell more stuff and claim to be "job creators."

What this thread does demonstrate is that, as a nation, our values are seriously out of whack.

So who house is the gardener gardening? If he needs help it must be a big house. Same for the painter.
I can tell you that guy living on welfare does not have a gardener, his landlord does who probably owns a few properties.

I work with 1%ers everyday who create jobs in my shop on a daily basis. I would be glad to hire 2 more if the system provided something for the guys who choose something for their lives besides college.

[bdahlg68]

So who house is the gardener gardening? If he needs help it must be a big house. Same for the painter.
I can tell you that guy living on welfare does not have a gardener, his landlord does who probably owns a few properties.

I work with 1%ers everyday who create jobs in my shop on a daily basis. I would be glad to hire 2 more if the system provided something for the guys who choose something for their lives besides college.

Normally your posts make me think 2 things. Either I'm thinking, "Man, this guy is an eh-hole!" Or, I'm thinking, "damn, that's some sweet fabricatio!n". How dare you post something that makes me think you might have a clue outside the shop!

[ironworks]

Normally your posts make me think 2 things. Either I'm thinking, "Man, this guy is an eh-hole!" Or, I'm thinking, "damn, that's some sweet fabricatio!n". How dare you post something that makes me think you might have a clue outside the shop!

Both thoughts seem totally logical.

But to think somebody with minimal cash is going to outspend some guy with money is illogical.

Just think of the people the 1%ers in my shop employ, well my 8 employees, the welding supply and repair store, the garbage man, my landlord, power company, all my parts suppliers, the drivers who deliver parts,the scrap metal guys who pick up the scrap, my laser cutter and machinists, plus all garderers who work for everyone listed above, and the painters.

You could carry that even further to the people we spend our profits from the 1%ers on, race car parts for my hobby stock, all the way down to the rawhide bones my widest dog consumes at a ridiculous pace. Somebody had to make that thing for the dog to chew. To the guy building my swimming pool to the guy I buy my gasoline from.

[Shmoov69]

My point exactly! The school systems will spend MILLIONS on a freakin football stadium and sports programs so we can focus on sports instead of learning something. Don't get me wrong I LOVE football, but its a freakin sport/hobby that for 99.9999% of kids that "play" won't be able to make a career out of it and support themselves. And if they are good, then they are shuffled thru school and given a free ride to college, where they do it all over again for the same reason not learning a thing and more than likely wont get a job in it. I know there are a few that actually learn and make it in "life", but that should be focused on and taught first! It's sickening how far we have regressed over the last 50ish years!!:mad:

My wife's side of the family are all rural area working class teachers and the family is three generations deep in teaching. My in-laws were 30 year middle school Physical Education retiree's (Steve Prefontaine was their student, his sister is a friend), Uncle coached the State Champ 6 man football team, his son coaches the just crowns State AAAA Champions, niece played volleyball for the U of O and coached her High School VB team, her husband is the Varsity B-ball Coach. The in-laws, aunts, and uncles all grew up on the family ranch/farm that we still run.

There are some interesting conversations surrounding major metro education practices at our family functions that wouldn't be considered politically correct. :yes:


PERS distribution is public info and our 4 senior retirees individual annual income is between $31-$35,000, Oregon's last football coach Mike Bellotti (also a friend) retired a couple years ago and his PERS income is $42,000 A MONTH!

Another friend who started in patrol and ended up being Chief of Police receives $9,200 a month for his 30 years of service.......he retired at 51.

We understand Phys Ed and the PERS plan leading the state into bankruptcy. :thumbsup:

[Flash68]

Ya'all's comments on our sh!tty education system is exactly why I paid mucho extra to move to a city where K-12 are pretty much tops in the state and crime is near zero.

Small businesses are the job creators of this country yet Obamacare is gonna excessively tax these small businesses (like mine) so actually LESS net jobs will be created as costs will run higher and companies are already strategizing on how to minimize the damage of this flawed and ridiculous socialistic law.

Like Greg said --- FREE healthcare for all is not free..... job creators will pay.... and less net jobs will be created.

What a joke.

[Mkelcy]

Ya'all's comments on our sh!tty education system is exactly why I paid mucho extra to move to a city where K-12 are pretty much tops in the state and crime is near zero.

Small businesses are the job creators of this country yet Obamacare is gonna excessively tax these small businesses (like mine) so actually LESS net jobs will be created as costs will run higher and companies are already strategizing on how to minimize the damage of this flawed and ridiculous socialistic law.

Like Greg said --- FREE healthcare for all is not free..... job creators will pay.... and less net jobs will be created.

What a joke.

I'm curious. Who do you think pays for the "uninsured" now, who show up at hospital ER's and must be treated?

[Flash68]

I'm curious. Who do you think pays for the "uninsured" now, who show up at hospital ER's and must be treated?

We do, of course. And I think it's only going to get worse. Who woulda thought America's healthcare system (the worst in the developed world as far as efficiency and cost) could actually decline....

[Mkelcy]

We do, of course. And I think it's only going to get worse. Who would thought America's health care system (the worst in the developed world as far as efficiency and cost) could actually decline....

There's an inverse correlation between the extent of the coverage and the cost per patient. Preventive care actually works, and if we provided it to those who are uninsured and who must must use ER services, the overall cost would decline.

[Vegas69]

I'll take this medical thing another direction. Doctors that attempt to mask the problem with a prescription pad instead of find the solution. I've known multiple people that have been turned into near zombies by a prescription pad.

The incentives drug companies offer doctors need to go away.

One of my goals this year was to find a fine doctor that listened and gave a ****. I was successful but it wasn't easy especially with my current insurance which is an HMO. Her practice is fairly new and that was the only way in the door.

Finding quality healthcare is extremely difficult but it's available if you are persistent enough and do your homework.
--
In regards to education. Greg is right, they continually pile on more and more and more onto these teachers every year with more kids and the same amount of time. Kelli has her 20 and she get's 2 autistic kids every morning to try to get into the mix. They moved a kid into her class that misbehaves and has been suspended multiple times as the other teacher couldn't handle him. Remember, this is 3rd grade! They need to crack down on the damn parents and kids more effectively. This cancer is why the smart kids are getting inferior educations as they consume to much of the teachers time and energy.

She puts in the hours too, let me tell you. She leaves at 7 and comes home at 5most days. Many nights and weekend time are spent grading papers, doing lesson plans, or buying supplies for the kids that the school doesn't provide. She has a bachelors, masters, +32, plus countless other formal training and pulls down 59k a year. I will say that she's more dedicated and driven than most as education is her passion but far from overpaid even with 3 months off.

[Fluid Power]

Both thoughts seem totally logical.

But to think somebody with minimal cash is going to outspend some guy with money is illogical.

Just think of the people the 1%ers in my shop employ, well my 8 employees, the welding supply and repair store, the garbage man, my landlord, power company, all my parts suppliers, the drivers who deliver parts,the scrap metal guys who pick up the scrap, my laser cutter and machinists, plus all garderers who work for everyone listed above, and the painters.

You could carry that even further to the people we spend our profits from the 1%ers on, race car parts for my hobby stock, all the way down to the rawhide bones my widest dog consumes at a ridiculous pace. Somebody had to make that thing for the dog to chew. To the guy building my swimming pool to the guy I buy my gasoline from.


Agreed. I own my own business. I have 5 employees and own my building with a tenant. I pay the yard guy, the landscaper in the spring and fall, the trash guy, the propane company, etc. etc. I am doing a nice project for PPG right now, the CEO of PPG is a 1%er, and PPG is adding a monster production line at a local finishing plant. The number of work (albeit temp) is huge. This construction guys, the electricians, the mechanical contractors, Me! all allows us to make money and put it back into the local economy. Corporations ARE job creators. As are the 1%ers. Another case in point: My best friend is SUPER wealthy. Huge house in a super affluent neighbor hood, a house in Naples, FLA on the water and a gentleman's farm here in town. The money is old family money. He owns a steel erection business and has grown the thing like mad, adding people and buying equipment like crazy. He could have sat around and sucked the tit of family wealth, but this guy will out work darn near anyone. And by work I mean drive equipment and walk the iron. He looks like he doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together. He might be the exception, but all of his neighbors are mostly guys just like himself, concrete company owners, commercial construction guys etc...

Darren

[Sieg]

Todd - The compensation system for our schools is interesting as is the expectations placed on the teachers. Our son is TAG and boarder-line Asperger's. The schools here receive no additional funding to accommodate above average IQ students yet state law says they have to make special accommodation. Before confirmation they tested him 2 or 3 times and reported back that he is just below TAG level. We took him to an independent learning center where a long-time friend works for testing and he was full-blown TAG, not even a question.

Our schools receive numerous types of special state and federal funding for below average students yet there is none for above average. I've been told many education systems in EU countries capitalize on above average students with special programs and schools. Our local public system appears to rely on deflection tactics. I would guess it isn't much better across the country.

To compound the education issues with our son in the 4th grade his pediatrician over a 4 week period prescribe him with 3 courses of heavy antibiotics for ear and throat infections which I'm 90+ percent sure lead to his Crone's disease. I have numerous friends who are docs or in the medical field and the body language gets interesting when I mention the medically induced Crone's theory.
FWIW - That doctor was in favor of socialized medical program.

[GregWeld]

Both thoughts seem totally logical.

But to think somebody with minimal cash is going to outspend some guy with money is illogical.

Just think of the people the 1%ers in my shop employ, well my 8 employees, the welding supply and repair store, the garbage man, my landlord, power company, all my parts suppliers, the drivers who deliver parts,the scrap metal guys who pick up the scrap, my laser cutter and machinists, plus all garderers who work for everyone listed above, and the painters.

You could carry that even further to the people we spend our profits from the 1%ers on, race car parts for my hobby stock, all the way down to the rawhide bones my widest dog consumes at a ridiculous pace. Somebody had to make that thing for the dog to chew. To the guy building my swimming pool to the guy I buy my gasoline from.




This is why I said the Mkelcy doesn't understand who really creates jobs - which in turn creates taxes...

Obviously the 1% is not the driving force for the economy - it's probably more like the top 30%.... The point is - it's not the bottom 50%. My MONTHLY budget is about what most GROSS per year. And it employs an awful lot of people. That's not bragging - it's just a fact. So think about that -- I'm equal to about 12 people in spending. The difference is I'm not just buying basic services and groceries etc.

I just don't think some folks realize where their income comes from. And when I hear this constant attack on "wealth" I know that it's from someone that has no understanding of an economy.

BTW --- YOUR GARDNER DID NOT CREATE THE JOB --- The guy that employs your gardner did. A gardner with no employer doesn't create anything.

What I dislike the MOST about the current POTUS is his constant class warfare attitude. He is SUPPOSED to be the POT UNITED States... not the "we against them" people.

I would also invite folks to actually look up who pays the "lions share" of all the taxes collected by the IRS. It might surprise those that think the top earners aren't doing their share. I beg to differ. But that's not really an argument. All the polls that I've read have said that the 1% don't mind paying higher taxes. What they do care about is the growth of the US budget and what's behind that growth. And that they want to see more constraint.

[GregWeld]

Kelli has her 20 and she get's 2 autistic kids every morning to try to get into the mix.




I forgot Kelli is a teacher! :cheers:


Do you make her dress up and stuff when...... <never mind>:unibrow:


My guess is that most people would quit after about one week of trying to be a teacher. I was a Boy Scout troop leader.... and trying to get, and maintain, the attention of 8 or 9 little boys was like herding cats. Just to get them settled enough to even START to do a project tried my patience!

[GregWeld]

There's an inverse correlation between the extent of the coverage and the cost per patient. Preventive care actually works, and if we provided it to those who are uninsured and who must must use ER services, the overall cost would decline.



Finally something we can agree on. :cheers:


Obamacare didn't address the COSTS of healthcare.... if it had - I'd have been all for it. Instead he just created an entire new government bureaucracy.

[Sieg]

Obamacare didn't address the COSTS of healthcare.... if it had - I'd have been all for it. Instead he just created an entire new government bureaucracy.
...........and appointed Robin Hood as the Czar.

I read Michelle's Thesis from Princeton in 2006/7 before it was suppressed. It definitely a had a strong underlying general tone of black vs. white IMO.
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/01/11/michelle-obama-angry-that-shes-perceived-as-angry-black-woman-remember-her-princeton-thesis/

Roger and Darren make classic examples of what drives this country. Small businesses are the infantry of America and right now it appears this administration values them about as much as an infantry pawn in Vietnam. :willy:

[GregWeld]

...........and appointed Robin Hood as the Czar.

I read Michelle's Thesis from Princeton in 2006/7 before it was suppressed. It definitely a had a strong underlying general tone of black vs. white IMO.
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/01/11/michelle-obama-angry-that-shes-perceived-as-angry-black-woman-remember-her-princeton-thesis/




This is a typical VIEW FROM THE BOTTOM of the glass. As long as SHE felt that way - she was no doubt received that way. A chip on her shoulder. The very same "chip" that has this President declaring war on the 1%.

Reminds me of the debate between Lloyd Bentsen and Dan Quail....."I knew Jack Kennedy, and you sir, are no Jack Kennedy"
:cheers:

[Bucketlist2012]

There is a silent shift in who they want to tax.. It was the 1%...Then magically it became the 2%...Any of us who know realize that it will silently go to the top 10%, and then ???? To pay the debt and without massive spending cuts, it will reach the top 40% eventually.

And as far as Todd's post, he is right on the money....After my seizures they gave me a life sentence of seizure medication...OK, I get that, but the additional medicine's they tried to give me to "cure" me were worse than the side effects they were trying to fix....Several times I tried their "cure"...After two days of Zombie land I refused to take it, and slowly, naturally, I am getting better. They want to treat everything with pills...No thanks..

I just don't see any compromise coming for a long time...The Media refuses to report the truth, and the 51% believe them. So I see it getting worse for many before it gets better, But they are going to need to understand what and why it is happening and stop believing what they are spoon fed..

[syborg tt]

I don't want to sound mean but I am sure it will come out this way.

Like you said they are going to have to eventually tax the middleclass and eventually everyone will see an increase. There will be job cuts ( hopefully for the people who voted for Obama ) and it is going to hurt us as a Nation. Which sucks.

However I a certain it's the only way the 51% will figure it out. Sometime you have to slap people in the face with a dead fish for them to understand what they have done.

On a side Note: Just think if Mitt did get elected and the economy went downhill the Republican party would be blaimed for it by the media. So if we fail as a country at least we know that Obama and his followers will be the cause !

[Shmoov69]

Obamacare didn't address the COSTS of healthcare.... if it had - I'd have been all for it. Instead he just created an entire new government bureaucracy.

I've said that before.... We are not doing anything about the cause of the issue (whatever it may be at the time), but rather trying to mask the symptoms. Like taking an aspirin for a splinter, ain't going to fix it at all but might make it stop hurting till its time for another one!:rolleyes:

[57hemicuda]

I truely HATE this class envy crap that the politicians and press keep fueling. You hear it everywhere, how did working hard to provide a nice life for our families become so wrong. I am by no means a 1%er, but 90% of the work I do is for the 1%. For the most part, these are descent, honorable, hard working people providing for there families just like me. There are exceptions of course, but that is every tax bracket.

I've gotten to the point that if someone even starts the rich argument, I can't even take them seriously. We can debate taxes, but I can tell you that if you work hard, your taying over 50% in taxes by the time you add the fed, state, local, property, sales,fuel, etc,etc.

I lay the decay of the family at the feet of the government, once the tax rate got that high Mom could no longer stay home and raise little Tommy. Due to 50% of your income be obsorbed by the government, to have any kind of quality of life Mom and Dad both had to work. This kept both parent working and stressing over making ends meet, not leaving the time that most of our Moms had to spend on us. After all, look how good we all turned out.LOL

[realcoray]

I truely HATE this class envy crap that the politicians and press keep fueling. You hear it everywhere, how did working hard to provide a nice life for our families become so wrong. I am by no means a 1%er, but 90% of the work I do is for the 1%. For the most part, these are descent, honorable, hard working people providing for there families just like me. There are exceptions of course, but that is every tax bracket.

I've gotten to the point that if someone even starts the rich argument, I can't even take them seriously. We can debate taxes, but I can tell you that if you work hard, your taying over 50% in taxes by the time you add the fed, state, local, property, sales,fuel, etc,etc.

I lay the decay of the family at the feet of the government, once the tax rate got that high Mom could no longer stay home and raise little Tommy. Due to 50% of your income be obsorbed by the government, to have any kind of quality of life Mom and Dad both had to work. This kept both parent working and stressing over making ends meet, not leaving the time that most of our Moms had to spend on us. After all, look how good we all turned out.LOL

There is a lot of ignorance here. Taxes are exceptionally low relative to what they have been over the last century. There were decade long stretches where the top tax bracket was 90%, and that included dividends.

A common theme in this thread is that a lot of people don't pay and yet receive benefits from the government, which is deficit spending to do so. The so called 47%, where even if you remove the veterans and old people still has some people who in fact do work, but don't pay federal income tax (they pay local/state/sales tax of course).

Who is to blame for these free loaders who straight up get a check from the government? Bush in 2002. The tax cuts partially being discussed recently, included provisions that eliminated 8 million people off of the tax rolls because the lowest rate went down, and credits in some cases doubled.

I'm independent but I think critically about these things and I have a clear concise plan to restore America.

To balance the budget, a new law that says states can receive only an amount up to 80% of what your residents pay in income tax. Why 80%? Well some percentage goes towards government overhead, and some goes towards paying down the debt.

Net effect: All but 3 'red' states suddenly get a lot less money. My blue state actually gets less too so I'm not being vindictive here. Chances are the entire south goes bankrupt within a year.

Any state can opt out of Obamacare. The downside is we won't make medicare payments to your doctors as these things compliment each other and we aren't ala carte.

Net effect: Any state that opts out loses half or more of their doctors, and their residents are not as healthy, further adding costs to running the states as it turns out the states that would do this, would be the ones who currently take more than they make.

I love the rich, I mean I hope to be in Greg's shoes one day. Who bothers me is the South, a bunch of freeloading taking states that don't even have the awareness to see that they are railing against the very things that would help them. Not only that, but I'm paying for it.

This is half a joke, everything except for the part where I said I hate the south.

[Bucketlist2012]

[QUOTE=realcoray;450171]There is a lot of ignorance here.


If you can debate nicely, please continue to post. If in your flame you are posting that people are being ignorant, please go to yahoo..

You have an Idea on what you believe is the way things should be. Many others do not agree with you..It is your right to have your view. It is our right to have ours...We never called you Ignorant, please show us the same respect.

We can agree to disagree. But when you are basically calling people Ignorant, please go to Yahoo...We have no place for that kind of flame on LatG.

You bring a different view that is great to discuss and talk about, just please watch how you present yourself..It is refreshing that you are the counterpoint, but without the flame and condesending remarks, that's all..

[realcoray]

[QUOTE=realcoray;450171]There is a lot of ignorance here.


If you can debate nicely, please continue to post. If in your flame you are posting that people are being ignorant, please go to yahoo..

We can agree to disagree. But when you are basically calling people Ignorant, please go to Yahoo...We have no place for that kind of flame on LatG.

I can debate nicely but we all have to be realistic and use some sort of logic and not emotions. In the last few days someone here posted that they basically hope people who voted for Obama lose their jobs.

How polite and even American is that? That is neither nice nor constructive. I appreciate the double standard in situations like this where a majority of the members are probably on one side and I want to discuss like an adult. The reality is I'm not on a side. It's a fact taxes are low, it's a fact that a lot of people don't pay federal taxes because of George Bush cutting taxes so much, they just didn't have to pay anymore. Republicans talk about taxes being too high and cutting them, but then they complain when they've cut taxes for some people so much that they GET money.

I will say I support the concept of the 1% paying more, at the same time I can say without a doubt that the government needs to spend less. It's not about attacking the rich, being jealous or whatever, it's about paying the countries debt.

Nothing is ever as black and white as some of you guys say, and all I am trying to accomplish is to point out the grey that people seem to avoid.

[intocarss]

Is it just the media lately, or are more and more people in this country really starting to despise success??

[GregWeld]

How many of you saw the news with the Detroit cit councilwoman stating that since her people voted for Obama -- that it was time for some quid pro quo and bring home the bacon?

It's nothing to do with race.... for me personally. But this is, to me, even worse than the "Obama phone" video... This was put forth by someone that is suppose to be a representative on a government body. This is a city councilwoman! OMG...



LET ME SAY FOR THE RECORD -- I DO NOT, AND NEVER HAVE, WATCHED FOX NEWS... Most of the people on there are as far RIGHT as I think this councilwoman is far LEFT... I'm a guy that's way more right down the middle... but I found the video on their website so since it was easy - I'll post the link.


http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/20264712/detroit-councilwoman-to-obama-we-supported-you-now-support-us

[SuperSport]

Is it just the media lately, or are more and more people in this country really starting to despise success??

The media. We all go to work and hope to be successful some day.
At least I do.:) I assume the majority of Americans are the same as me.
Turn off the television we when they feed you that garbage of 1% or 47 %. It's nonsense. The majority in this country is the working class.

[GregWeld]

Is it just the media lately, or are more and more people in this country really starting to despise success??



This is the one part of this administration that bothers me the most... that they're actually WORKING to divide people in this country in a them vs us fashion. I couldn't be more against that kind of "governing".

[Sieg]

This is the one part of this administration that bothers me the most... that they're actually WORKING to divide people in this country in a them vs us fashion. I couldn't be more against that kind of "governing".

The underlying tones within this government are the root of my distrust. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

The underlying tones within this government are the root of my distrust. :thumbsup:



I went to the range today at 11:30 --- I left at 4:00.... I took the .45.... the 30-30... the AR 15 .227... the .40... the two .22's

:lol:

[Sieg]

I went to the range today at 11:30 --- I left at 4:00.... I took the .45.... the 30-30... the AR 15 .227... the .40... the two .22's

:lol:

That's a good day! Just remember you can't have enough ammunition.........Investing 103..........in the right calibers it may be like gold but pay big dividends.

All I did was make a few picture holders.......

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Other/Welding/i-8SnjkmN/0/M/IMAG3293-M.jpg

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Other/Welding/i-T8vBz7N/0/M/IMAG3291-M.jpg

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Other/Welding/i-Dmh5jxR/0/M/IMAG3295-M.jpg

Tomorrow I might design a special one for your new setee. :D

[57hemicuda]

There is a lot of ignorance here. Taxes are exceptionally low relative to what they have been over the last century. There were decade long stretches where the top tax bracket was 90%, and that included dividends.

Who is to blame for these free loaders who straight up get a check from the government? Bush in 2002.

Oh theres some ignorance all right, I need someone to justify for me where the government should ever be entitled to 90% of what someone earns, or 50% for that matter. What services are you providing me that entitles you to 50% of what I work so hard for?

And on the Bush thing, that just makes me chuckle. Bush made his mistakes, but when does Obama take responsibvility for his actions. Its going to be 50 years from now and the Democrats are still going to be blaming Bush, and the press is still not going to do its job, and look for the true root causes.

[Beegs]

When they kept saying:...."lean forward"

...they actually meant:.. "BEND OVER"

[realcoray]

Oh theres some ignorance all right, I need someone to justify for me where the government should ever be entitled to 90% of what someone earns, or 50% for that matter. What services are you providing me that entitles you to 50% of what I work so hard for?

And on the Bush thing, that just makes me chuckle. Bush made his mistakes, but when does Obama take responsibvility for his actions. Its going to be 50 years from now and the Democrats are still going to be blaming Bush, and the press is still not going to do its job, and look for the true root causes.

I dunno, I mean there are roads and bridges right? If your house catches on fire, someone is going to come put their life on the line to put it out right? If you injure yourself you can call 911, and within minutes people come to help.

If people fly planes into buildings, and we have to blow them up wherever they go, all of those missiles and people involved have no cost?

I was not even saying that taxes on the rich should be 90%, no one is saying that. It's simply pointing out that rates going up slightly (more so on dividends) is not a huge attack on the rich.

At the same time, I think that the government could be more efficient with their spending. For example, if we go over the fiscal cliff, spending will be cut on defense by like 10% or less and Panetta acts like it's going to be a huge deal. Granted it's 55 billion or something, but there is probably not an organization in existance that has 50 people or more, that couldn't cut 10% from somewhere and not notice. No private company I've ever worked was so efficient that any small cut like that would matter.

Bush screwed a lot of things up but it wasn't like he was the only person to blame for the recession. When looking at what you have to do to get things going in the right direction, sometimes you have to look at what occured to point you in the wrong direction and correct. The bush tax cuts and the wars are a large contributer to the deficits so looking at ways to address that makes sense.

[57hemicuda]

Its funny we had police and fire protection, a military etc. in the 60's and still kept a tax rate below 20%. What has changed??, oh yeah social spending. I'm all for making the military live within its means, along with all the all the other corporate welfare that needs to be stopped. But, the real fiscal problem right now, is direct payments to individuals. You can choose not to except that, but it doesn't change the fact that it will end up crushing us. The fall of Rome.

Again, all I here is Bush, no responsibilty for Obama's actions. Kind of a picture of todays society, isn't it.

[Sieg]

I dunno, I mean there are roads and bridges right? If your house catches on fire, someone is going to come put their life on the line to put it out right? If you injure yourself you can call 911, and within minutes people come to help.

Please don't play the fire hero card.

Fire and EMT equipment and compensation are one of the better examples of excesses government spending. Yet they are portrayed to be movie stars and hero's by the media. Why isn't their equipment similar to military? The buy and equip their vehicles like the 1 percenter's buying recreational vehicles............why?

The number in our area that have second jobs as contractors and work for cash under the table makes me sick.

Two years ago Eugene had 203 fire department employees, the average wage was $96,000. Police had 193 and averaged $92,000.

Then they respond in these vehicles to attended to longtime drunk who's passed out again.........on a regular basis.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Wvkr6q3/0/M/i-Wvkr6q3-M.jpg
Cost effective?

IMO occupants will most likely die of smoke inhalation before the responders arrive if they can't clear themselves from the structure. In many cases provided you have decent insurance you're better off having your house burn to the ground vs. dealing with smoke and fire damage and having your house filled with the fire departments water. You'll be back under your own roof in less time with a total rebuild vs. repair.

Have you paid for an ambulance ride lately? You can go to a nice driving school for a similar price............unless you're homeless then it's free.

From a motorcyclist's perspective the condition of roads in the Pacific NW are dangerous.

End of rant..............

[Bucketlist2012]

Do we really want to start the blame game ? The Bush blame game.

Because if so, here is your history lesson.. The CRA was started by Jimmy Carter. Then Bill Clinton put it on Steroids...You know to be "fair".

Then although Bush was President, Barney Frank and Company ran with the CRA and pushed the banks to engage in Loans they never wanted to do..

Subprime lending was forced on the Banks by Barney Frank, Chuck Schumner and company to make it "fair" that everyone gets a home loan.

In 2003 , and 2005, Bush and the Right and the Federal Reserve said we are at risk...Barney Frank said we were not at risk..

In 2006, McCain called for tougher regulations...The democrats blocked the effort...Obama voted..

Bush tried several times to stop this ,but he was labeled a racist by the left and by the press.. No one in the media and on the left did their job to save the nation from collapse.

Sure Banks made a lot of money, and Goldman Sachs took the country for a ride.. I did too...I was not going to sit back while it was happening..

Sure there were MBS's that were DDD that got packaged as AAA and sold world wide. But you know what ? Stop trying to be fair and lend to unqualified buyers...It is the mantra on the left to equal the playing field by any means neccessary, even when it makes no financial sense.

And the cry babies about the two wars, blah,blah,blah...Please stop...It was a sub prime mortgage meltdown...And if the left would have left the regulation and the banks alone to stay with old school standards, none of 2008 would have happened.

So I put the meltdown, and the printing and spending that was needed to save the Nation squarely at the feet of the Liberals, because I know what happened.

You see it was easy to see coming...I sold a luxury home in 2006 and went into cash...Waiting. Then in February 2009 I closed on a 55% off peak Home at the bottom for one third my selling price of the other home. Then I rolled the rest into Investments...The opportunity of a lifetime...

And I thought it was only once in a life time. But if we continue on this path, I will get a second shot at putting my portfolio on steroids, because I refuse to let the opportunity pass....

So those that blame Bush for the collapse, are just being.....misinformed, or following the kool aid trail..Because He said something, and the media and the left shut him down...Without 2008 where would we be ? Trillions less in debt, People still in homes. Jobless rate lower, and a stronger economy..Oh and still in two wars..

And I am for Clinton era tax rates.....AFTER true spending cuts are made...The education system is broken...Throwing more money at it will not fix it...You want infastructure done ? Bring the troops home and put them to work on the highways and bridges..The unions would go crazy but what are you going to do with 300,000 troops ? Keep sending them to different nations for a pay check..

Tell the EPA to shove it and trim it's power and fat...Stop trying to force higher fuel prices to mandate green energy...Don't tell me that the President does not set fuel prices...He said on camera and his Energy Czar said on camera that they welcome higher gasoline prices to "force" green energy, even if it means european prices...So he puts policies in place that raise the price to justify going green.

The media is not doing it's job...They worship Obama and the left...They will never tell the truth or expose the lies and corruption...But Bush ? They will run front page articles....There is a price to pay for such hypocracy and silence...

[hifi875]

Your are exactly right on th mortgage meltdown. bush had nothing to do with it. And last i checked there was something called 9/11 that happened. It would be scary to see how obummer would have reacted. We did what we had to do.

[realcoray]

Its funny we had police and fire protection, a military etc. in the 60's and still kept a tax rate below 20%. What has changed??, oh yeah social spending. I'm all for making the military live within its means, along with all the all the other corporate welfare that needs to be stopped. But, the real fiscal problem right now, is direct payments to individuals. You can choose not to except that, but it doesn't change the fact that it will end up crushing us. The fall of Rome.

Again, tax rates are not radically higher than they were in the 60s.

http://visualizingeconomics.com/blog/2007/11/03/nytimes-historical-tax-rates-by-income-group

Note how for virtually everyone except for the top 1%, tax rates are basically where they were in the 1960s. That's probably a large reason why most of the gains made in terms of wealth over the last decade, have pretty much been for that set of people. That of course doesn't include state/local taxes which have almost certainly tended to increase.

I don't know that I'd be so dramatic as to compare it to the fall of Rome, but I agree that we should be cutting spending in all areas. It logically makes sense that entitlement spending would increase during a serious recession, but again, we could certainly find efficiencies and ways to make the dollars go farther.

My thinking is that any change should be phased in over time. While I think going over the fiscal cliff would not be as bad as people think, it would be clearly superior to cut 2% a year over 5 years (and increase taxes 0.5% a year over 5), than to cut 10%, and raise taxes 5% at the exact same time.

[Beegs]

Please don't play the fire hero card.

Fire and EMT equipment and compensation are one of the better examples of excesses government spending. Yet they are portrayed to be movie stars and hero's by the media. Why isn't their equipment similar to military? The buy and equip their vehicles like the 1 percenter's buying recreational vehicles............why?

The number in our area that have second jobs as contractors and work for cash under the table makes me sick.

Two years ago Eugene had 203 fire department employees, the average wage was $96,000. Police had 193 and averaged $92,000.

Then they respond in these vehicles to attended to longtime drunk who's passed out again.........on a regular basis.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Wvkr6q3/0/M/i-Wvkr6q3-M.jpg
Cost effective?


End of rant..............

Yup...

[hifi875]

If you taxed the 1% at 100%, it still wouldn't put a dent in our debt. that isn't the problem. its the spending. the 1% put alot of the 99% to work. Alot of poeple. they shouldn't be unfairly singled out when they already pay 80% of the taxes anyway. if their taxes go up a little, i wouldn't be the end of the world, but spending needs to be reigned in to match. In the real world you spend what you have and live withing your means, or you go broke.

[GregWeld]

*** Willing to concede -- but in order to get something in return: Relatedly, the Washington Post reports that Republican centrists and even some conservatives are calling on Boehner “to concede on rates now, while he still has some leverage to demand something in return. Republicans are eager to win changes to fast-growing safety-net programs, such as raising the eligibility age for Medicare and applying a less-generous measure of inflation to Social Security benefits.” More: “‘I and some others are advocating giving the president what he wants,’ said Rep. Steven C. LaTourette (R-Ohio). But he stressed that this must be part of a package that slows federal borrowing and reduces the debt by $4 trillion to $5 trillion. ‘Quite frankly, some people in this 2 percent who call me, they’re more worried about the fiscal cliff than about the rates going up a couple points. That has bigger risk for them,’ said LaTourette, a close Boehner ally who is retiring in January.”




The real Dem vs Repub argument is We will pay more taxes but we want spending reduced.

I think that is a FAIR AND BALANCED APPROACH.... It's a RESPONSIBLE approach.


Let's not argue about who started what and who's to blame.... Let's just get busy and SOLVE the problems.

Like my old desk sign used to ask.... "Are you part of the problem or part of the solution".

[GregWeld]

AND........ WE need more like this!!



http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-12-06/apple-to-invest-in-manufacturing-macs-in-u-dot-s-dot-ceo-cook-says

[hifi875]

*** Willing to concede -- but in order to get something in return: Relatedly, the Washington Post reports that Republican centrists and even some conservatives are calling on Boehner “to concede on rates now, while he still has some leverage to demand something in return. Republicans are eager to win changes to fast-growing safety-net programs, such as raising the eligibility age for Medicare and applying a less-generous measure of inflation to Social Security benefits.” More: “‘I and some others are advocating giving the president what he wants,’ said Rep. Steven C. LaTourette (R-Ohio). But he stressed that this must be part of a package that slows federal borrowing and reduces the debt by $4 trillion to $5 trillion. ‘Quite frankly, some people in this 2 percent who call me, they’re more worried about the fiscal cliff than about the rates going up a couple points. That has bigger risk for them,’ said LaTourette, a close Boehner ally who is retiring in January.”




The real Dem vs Repub argument is We will pay more taxes but we want spending reduced.

I think that is a FAIR AND BALANCED APPROACH.... It's a RESPONSIBLE approach.


Let's not argue about who started what and who's to blame.... Let's just get busy and SOLVE the problems.

Like my old desk sign used to ask.... "Are you part of the problem or part of the solution".

Dont get me wrong. I don't want taxes for you 2% to go up either. it affects my paycheck! Like you said they are probly going to go up, but like you said a balanced approach would be nice.

[Sieg]

AND........ WE need more like this!!



http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-12-06/apple-to-invest-in-manufacturing-macs-in-u-dot-s-dot-ceo-cook-says

Amen!

And IMO more emphasis on tech degrees vs. college degrees to support those manufacturing efforts.

[GregWeld]

I'm fine with taxes going up... it won't affect the way I live one iota. But I'm squarely in the camp of cutting spending. America has become totally irresponsible. It's embarrassing to me personally that we have to borrow. That's not the way I run my household. That is NOT the role of government. It's not proper leadership. And it makes the country "beholding" to other countries such as China.

When you borrow from someone and must do so in the future as well - it makes it pretty hard to get in their face about other "stuff"...


Basically I'm sick of America being on WELFARE in order to provide welfare.

[Fluid Power]

Please don't play the fire hero card.

Fire and EMT equipment and compensation are one of the better examples of excesses government spending. Yet they are portrayed to be movie stars and hero's by the media. Why isn't their equipment similar to military? The buy and equip their vehicles like the 1 percenter's buying recreational vehicles............why?

The number in our area that have second jobs as contractors and work for cash under the table makes me sick.

Two years ago Eugene had 203 fire department employees, the average wage was $96,000. Police had 193 and averaged $92,000.

Then they respond in these vehicles to attended to longtime drunk who's passed out again.........on a regular basis.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Wvkr6q3/0/M/i-Wvkr6q3-M.jpg
Cost effective?

IMO occupants will most likely die of smoke inhalation before the responders arrive if they can't clear themselves from the structure. In many cases provided you have decent insurance you're better off having your house burn to the ground vs. dealing with smoke and fire damage and having your house filled with the fire departments water. You'll be back under your own roof in less time with a total rebuild vs. repair.

Have you paid for an ambulance ride lately? You can go to a nice driving school for a similar price............unless you're homeless then it's free.

From a motorcyclist's perspective the condition of roads in the Pacific NW are dangerous.

End of rant..............

Agreed. The firefighters in my township have gotten a 5% across the board raise 2 times in the last 4 years. They are responsible for 40% of our townships $5 million annual budget. They have a hook and ladder truck when there is not a structure in the township over 3 stories tall that gets driven to every call! This isn't a bash on the firefighters. I wouldn't do the job, my point is this is going on in a township that has 42 miles of roads and is 23 square miles. Imagine this on the state level and then on the federal level. Just spend and spend and spend.

Darren

[Fluid Power]

"And I am for Clinton era tax rates.....AFTER true spending cuts are made...The education system is broken...Throwing more money at it will not fix it...You want infastructure done ? Bring the troops home and put them to work on the highways and bridges..The unions would go crazy but what are you going to do with 300,000 troops ? Keep sending them to different nations for a pay check.""

Very true point here. The infrastructure (highways and bridges) are super old, dating back to the 50's.

[57hemicuda]

Again, tax rates are not radically higher than they were in the 60s.

Note how for virtually everyone except for the top 1%, tax rates are basically where they were in the 1960s.

I think that you beleive that just because you said it, or read on some website that it is true. There is NO way you can dilute yourself into beleiving that what we pay in tax today is the same as it was in the 60's.

Don't listen to what they are telling you,think about it in your own life. Out of your own check (if you are employed), comes, fed, state, local, medicare, you pay 7% to unemployment, your employer matches that. You drive home, pay $.40+ a gallon in fuel tax, here in Md. 6% tax on anything you buy, tolls, propery taxes are outrageous, pay outrageous fees to register your car etc, etc. All that little crap adds up, putting your effective tax rate(if you are a producer) at over 50% of your income. Once again, your wife has to work, her income used just to pay the taxes. Wasn't even close to that in the 60's.

I look at the Democrats and Republicans as both standing waist high in a pool of gasoline, the Dem's have 8 matches in ther hands, the Rep's have 3 matches, either way we are toast. The Dem's just have 5 more ways to get us there.

[realcoray]

The real Dem vs Repub argument is We will pay more taxes but we want spending reduced.

I think that is a FAIR AND BALANCED APPROACH.... It's a RESPONSIBLE approach.

Let's not argue about who started what and who's to blame.... Let's just get busy and SOLVE the problems.


The stuff going on is all negotiating, people get overly concerned because one side or another puts out a heavily slanted offer. Both sides know that it will be a balanced thing. Democrats know cuts will occur, Republicans know revenue and really the tax rates will go up.

So of course Obama says we want 1.6 billion in revenue, and the republicans say no tax rate increases and 800 billion, but then we cut x,y, z.

They will meet somewhere in the middle, things will get cut, and taxes will go up. No matter what they do, it won't be enough sure, but both sides are already talking about major tax reforms next year that would probably bring rates down for many people (not necessarily meaning you pay less).

Also, 57hemicuda, I explictly said that I understand state/local taxes have probably not gone down, they really do tend to go up and never go down.

It isn't like I'm pro-tax, or pro-spend, I just try to view things from all angles.

The country will be fine, America is not going down the tubes, and there's no need to build a bunker and chances are we'll be in a better place 4 years from now than we are now. That has zero to do with who is our president, the government, the rich paying more or less, etc, it's because contrary to what some might believe, Americans just tend to not accept those things and work hard to get out of holes.

[SuperSport]

I'm fine with taxes going up... it won't affect the way I live one iota.
Wow! An American that is willing to bail out America.
You sir have a screw loose.
:unibrow:





:thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Wow! An American that is willing to bail out America.
You sir have a screw loose.
:unibrow:





:thumbsup:

Hey! You forgot the OTHER PART OF THE STATEMENT.... the part that says -- as long as these aholes quit spending!!


:thumbsup: :D

[Z10ROD]

yea I agree passing tax breaks for 98% of america. I was like geter dun then I herd they went back and said we need to extend unemployement:willy:

[GregWeld]

yea I agree passing tax breaks for 98% of america. I was like geter dun then I herd they went back and said we need to extend unemployement:willy:

I'm kinda torn on the unemployment extensions... I know two people on unemployment right now - 99 weeks worth - neither one are looking for a job - they're "resting and vesting". It's like WTF -- that's almost a two year vacation!

I'm equally certain that there are people that are really really hurting and need this extension. So once again - we come back to the government doing a really piss poor job of running these handouts.

[Vegas69]

I'm kinda torn on the unemployment extensions... I know two people on unemployment right now - 99 weeks worth - neither one are looking for a job - they're "resting and vesting". It's like WTF -- that's almost a two year vacation!

I'm equally certain that there are people that are really really hurting and need this extension. So once again - we come back to the government doing a really piss poor job of running these handouts.

You have the time and money to be influential. Get to work.....

[DOOM]

You have the time and money to be influential. Get to work.....

X2!!!

[GregWeld]

Romney has time and money -- look what that got him?!?!


:lol: :thumbsup:

[IMPALA MAN]

1. For people getting unemployment: Take all of the job postings (be it private and government) and require say 25 or 50 a week to be applied for by the unemployed. This would be required in order for your benefit check to be issued.

2. For people getting disability: I watch people every day that are in a wheelchair, go to work. There is a local business in my area that employ the blind. We once had them help counting at inventory....they were more accurate than the employees that had their eyesight!!!! So let's take the disabled, yes even the "obese" ones and give them a position. If you can cart your lazy butt to Walmart, you can cart your butt to work. There are people that are truly disabled. That is not who I am addressing. I am however addressing the deadbeat mooches, that hunt, fish, play sports, etc and claim disability. You know who you are!

3. For taxes: FLAT TAX!!! Very simple it's a magic word called proportional. EVERYONEpays the same percent. Read the good book. It says 10% of what you make goes to the Lord. Not 12% for some and 4% for others. Taxes should be the same way.

4. For Government Spending: make the government a business and ran like a business. We all know if we ran our business like the government, we would have went broke within the first year!

The chances of all of this happening.....did you ever hear that snowball survival story??

Summary:
Deadbeats get off your can and pull your weight. Until then you are nothing more than a mooch.

Government officials, start treating it like your own business, or risk loosing your pay and LIFELONG benefits!

Unemployed, start being a part of the solution instead of all of the problem. You too are a mooch, unless you are making every attempt to get work.

Life is not always a cake walk. Start manning up and be Americans instead a bunch of mooches!!!!

My 2 cents

[GregWeld]

I think Sieg mentioned the amount of fire equipment that was responding to a known town drunk....

I have mentioned that when you "MUST" budget - that things change because people start to actually dig into what they can do with and what they can do without....

Today I find an article that incorporates what Sieg pointed out - and what is, to me a way to look and see what you can do with a budget. When you read the headline - you're appalled -- then when you read the facts - it's not so bad - because "most" of the fire calls at this station ARE NOT fire related.... Makes sense to me...:thumbsup:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/50126062/ns/local_news-seattle_wa/#.UMNgZKWhwwE

[Flash68]

Impala Man... I would vote for you. :thumbsup:

[Bucketlist2012]

You gotta love that when the Politicians don't get their way , the first things they cry about cutting is the Police,Fire and Education...

You will be robbed, your house will burn down, and OMG, the poor children...

Never a mention of cutting government waste...Only the "fear" services...

[GregWeld]

All governments - big or small - only seem to have ever learned how to ADD... they can never balance a budget... They never cut ANYTHING out unless forced to do so... If they have a SURPLUS... they immediately vote to spend said surplus on some program or other... and that program has future costs which are never addressed.

It's like building roads.... they have an ongoing cost to maintain etc. THAT part is never in the original projections etc.


According to the Survey of Income and Program Participation conducted by the U.S. Census, well over 100 million Americans are enrolled in at least one welfare program run by the federal government. Many are enrolled in more than one. That is about a third of the entire population of the country. Sadly, that figure does not even include Social Security or Medicare. Today the federal government runs almost 80 different “means-tested welfare programs”, and almost all of those programs have experienced substantial growth in recent years.

[EBMC]

1. For people getting unemployment: Take all of the job postings (be it private and government) and require say 25 or 50 a week to be applied for by the unemployed. This would be required in order for your benefit check to be issued.

2. For people getting disability: I watch people every day that are in a wheelchair, go to work. There is a local business in my area that employ the blind. We once had them help counting at inventory....they were more accurate than the employees that had their eyesight!!!! So let's take the disabled, yes even the "obese" ones and give them a position. If you can cart your lazy butt to Walmart, you can cart your butt to work. There are people that are truly disabled. That is not who I am addressing. I am however addressing the deadbeat mooches, that hunt, fish, play sports, etc and claim disability. You know who you are!

3. For taxes: FLAT TAX!!! Very simple it's a magic word called proportional. EVERYONEpays the same percent. Read the good book. It says 10% of what you make goes to the Lord. Not 12% for some and 4% for others. Taxes should be the same way.

4. For Government Spending: make the government a business and ran like a business. We all know if we ran our business like the government, we would have went broke within the first year!

The chances of all of this happening.....did you ever hear that snowball survival story??

Summary:
Deadbeats get off your can and pull your weight. Until then you are nothing more than a mooch.

Government officials, start treating it like your own business, or risk loosing your pay and LIFELONG benefits!

Unemployed, start being a part of the solution instead of all of the problem. You too are a mooch, unless you are making every attempt to get work.

Life is not always a cake walk. Start manning up and be Americans instead a bunch of mooches!!!!

My 2 cents
I agree Impala man, thats why I thought there was a small glimmer of hope if we elected a "business man" I would much rather have Romney balance my checkbook than Obama! Oh well...
From what I've seen in my 40+ years on this planet is that it has somehow become acceptable to many people to accept as many handouts as possible. No one seems to be embarrassed about it and actually brags about the various ways they get "free" money. Kids grow up in this environment, don't know any better and think its perfectly normal to live like that. (well, I guess in todays world it is.) and the cycle continues.....

[camsdad]

1. For people getting unemployment: Take all of the job postings (be it private and government) and require say 25 or 50 a week to be applied for by the unemployed. This would be required in order for your benefit check to be issued.

2. For people getting disability: I watch people every day that are in a wheelchair, go to work. There is a local business in my area that employ the blind. We once had them help counting at inventory....they were more accurate than the employees that had their eyesight!!!! So let's take the disabled, yes even the "obese" ones and give them a position. If you can cart your lazy butt to Walmart, you can cart your butt to work. There are people that are truly disabled. That is not who I am addressing. I am however addressing the deadbeat mooches, that hunt, fish, play sports, etc and claim disability. You know who you are!

3. For taxes: FLAT TAX!!! Very simple it's a magic word called proportional. EVERYONEpays the same percent. Read the good book. It says 10% of what you make goes to the Lord. Not 12% for some and 4% for others. Taxes should be the same way.

4. For Government Spending: make the government a business and ran like a business. We all know if we ran our business like the government, we would have went broke within the first year!

The chances of all of this happening.....did you ever hear that snowball survival story??

Summary:
Deadbeats get off your can and pull your weight. Until then you are nothing more than a mooch.

Government officials, start treating it like your own business, or risk loosing your pay and LIFELONG benefits!

Unemployed, start being a part of the solution instead of all of the problem. You too are a mooch, unless you are making every attempt to get work.

Life is not always a cake walk. Start manning up and be Americans instead a bunch of mooches!!!!

My 2 cents

While I mostly agree here I see a potential problem with item # 1 & 4.

#1 IMO While I do agree that there are many folks that are slackers and moochers looking for a free hand out of any kind even though they are capable of contributing to society, "I got them 2nd and 3rd generation on the other side of my family" I have personally witnessed 1st hand the psychological toll it takes on someone who has worked hard all their life, moved up the corporate chain, became the household bread winner only to loose their job due to the corporation cutting back so those higher up can keep their bling bling. This particular individual I'm thinking of did acquire another similar type job (Medical field) a year and a half later only to have their 40hr a week job cut in hrs down to we will call you when we need you status. Yes this individual does receive unemployment and does apply to at least 5 job every day in a 60 mile radius of their residence. I have seen the list.
So based on these statistics, this individual has applied for approximately 1300 jobs in the last year alone. From what I understand their primary problem with not acquiring a good job or a frekin job of any kind in their field is that they are not Bi-lingual.
So from what I understand here is now you have to speak Spanish fluently and English is secondary. WTF is wrong with this picture.
When did it become mandatory to speak Spanish as a primary national language here in the US?


#4 If the Govt was ran like a Business or in its case a Corporation, the problem I see is the "Leaders" Pres, Congress, Senate, House, ext...would give themselves Enormously HUGE Bonus's at the end of each year and there would no longer be any form of elections. We the people would no longer have a say in our government.
In addition, if they can not balance their budget, lol! They will piss on us honest hard working back breaking tax paying little folk some more.

Just venting my thoughts a bit. :cheers:

[IMPALA MAN]

One suggestion I had for the food stamp issue was government stores. They would be stores that transportation would be provided to if needed. These stores would carry food and "necessities" ONLY. This means no steaks, no brand name Mac n cheese, no brand name anything. No microwaveable popcorn, no beef jerky, no ready made meals. You want Mac n cheese, melt the cheese, and add it to the milk, butter and macaroni available at the government store.
I know these people don't want to feel embarrassed by going to these stores, well wake up. YOU'RE ON WELFARE PEOPLE. DO YOU NOT HAVE ANY PRIDE!! You have no problem recieving a check from hard working people, so the excuse about being embarrassed doesn't fly.

Also, if I ran for president and by some slim chance a good majority of the deadbeats didn't vote and I got elected, I'm sure at least one deadbeat would assassinate me and probably pay for the ammunition with my tax money!

[Shmoov69]

#4 If the Govt was ran like a Business or in its case a Corporation, the problem I see is the "Leaders" Pres, Congress, Senate, House, ext...would give themselves Enormously HUGE Bonus's at the end of each year and there would no longer be any form of elections. We the people would no longer have a say in our government.
In addition, if they can not balance their budget, lol! They will piss on us honest hard working back breaking tax paying little folk some more.


And this is different than what we have how?!??!:question:

[Sieg]

Impala Man... I would vote for you. :thumbsup::woot: :woot: :thumbsup:

[Sieg]

You will be robbed, your house will burn down, and OMG, the poor children...

Exactly the same as when they are fully staffed. :thumbsup:

Throwing money at our local public safety services may improve their presence but it certainly doesn't improve the level of public safety. What's a sad fact in Eugene is the number of over-weight lesbian officers that can across the board out perform some of the men.

If anyone really thinks their jobs are so dangerous and justify the lucrative pensions............with the average physical condition how do they manage to survive? They might make it a week in the mountains of Afghanistan but only if they encountered minimal resistance.

Grrrrr

[camsdad]

And this is different than what we have how?!??!:question:

Exactly the point.
IMO even though I would HOPE it would.Problem is power corrupts.

[Sieg]

Here's the latest compensation data posted in the local Eugene, OR paper:

The cost of a City of Eugene worker

Average cost per full-time equivalent employee (total wages and benefits, but excluding overtime)

American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees

08-09 fiscal year: $70,419

12-13 fiscal year: $80,540

Full-time equivalent employees: 609

Eugene Police Employees’ Association

08-09 fiscal year: $91,568

12-13 fiscal year: $106,572

Full-time equivalent employees: 241

International Association of Firefighters

08-09 fiscal year: $107,434

12-13 fiscal year: $117,230

Full-time equivalent employees: 172

Non-unionized employees/managers

08-09 fiscal year: $106,375

12-13 fiscal year: $115,489

Full-time equivalent employees: 418

-----------------------------------------

The overtime is most likely excluded because it would probably cause local rioting.

How many people do you know that will be receiving 10+% compensation increases from 08-09 to 12-13?

I know the police have a lot of flexibility when it comes to banking OT compensation so most of them jump on it, seniority applies.

Many of these public servants are working 32-40 hours a week, many working 4 - 10's so working 5-10 hours a week of OT is nothing.

We've all seen how hard cops work at football and basketball games.......that's double OT.

Here's the entire article which will give a little insight into the mindset of councilors and city manager.
http://www.registerguard.com/web/updates/29149013-55/employees-million-budget-fiscal-fire.html.csp

What baffles me is people in the community actually believe the same people that negligently created this problem are capable of resolving it.
:drool:

[GregWeld]

I might be out of touch -- but I just don't think 100K per year is "good money"... I personally think that would put someone right square into the "middle class" and most likely would also require the wife, if any, to work
as well.

I don't mind my public employees being middle class Americans. I have SEVERAL police officers as friends -- I also belong to the Seattle Police Athletic Association... and I can tell you that none of them are above middle class even with overtime. They don't have the hot rods and stuff that "we" do. And if they do - they're building them at home and it take a lot of months or years to complete.

What I'd like to see cut out - is the multiple pensions that many of them stack up! My buddy get's a pension for life for being a Major in the Army - then is stacking up a separate healthy pension from the city... He'll make more in pension than he does working. THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT in my opinion. He'll also be able to do all of this while retiring "early".

Regular folks don't work for one place for 20 years - quit - then go work another 20 for someone else and get the pensions these "government service" workers do and that's where it's messed up, and the costs are horrendous!

[Flash68]

"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
~Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher

[Sieg]

Greg - I'd say a little out of touch due to living in major financial hubs in the country. $50-$75K is an above average salary in Eugene/Springfield, not many over $150K. Based on advertising demographics by zip code that I've contracted. $50-$75K is more like and average household income. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Is that per month -- because I'd be struggling if it's not! :D

[Sieg]

Is that per month -- because I'd be struggling if it's not! :D:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :woot: :woot:

:cheers:

[realcoray]

Greg - I'd say a little out of touch due to living in major financial hubs in the country. $50-$75K is an above average salary in Eugene/Springfield, not many over $150K. Based on advertising demographics by zip code that I've contracted. $50-$75K is more like and average household income. :thumbsup:

It's upper middle class in many areas, but it's comparable to many private employers.

I fall more with Greg on this, their incomes are not necessarily out of alignment, it's really that they have a pension at all. That isn't something you can just turn off overnight but you do something like the automakers did, say from this point forward everyone gets a 401k or similar with some matching, and the other people we just deal with the fact they will get a pension.

I also laugh at the idea that private industry is somehow more efficient than government. Every place I've ever worked, large and small has had tons of waste and inefficiencies. The larger they are, the worse it seems to be but even 10 man companies aren't necessarily paragons of efficiency.

[Shmoov69]

Yes Greg, you're out of touch!!! LoL!!:faint:

At least in the Midwest, I'd say average "household" is well under $100K

[IMPALA MAN]

It's upper middle class in many areas, but it's comparable to many private employers.

I fall more with Greg on this, their incomes are not necessarily out of alignment, it's really that they have a pension at all. That isn't something you can just turn off overnight but you do something like the automakers did, say from this point forward everyone gets a 401k or similar with some matching, and the other people we just deal with the fact they will get a pension.

I also laugh at the idea that private industry is somehow more efficient than government. Every place I've ever worked, large and small has had tons of waste and inefficiencies. The larger they are, the worse it seems to be but even 10 man companies aren't necessarily paragons of efficiency.

Only one difference with private industry. They go bankrupt and cease doing business due to a word called consiquences. They also don't have the option of just borrowing more.

True, I have seen some pretty pathetic waste in the private sector. However as Americans we have the right to not invest in companies like this and still live in America.
With the government we are forced to invest in the government, and the only way to get out of it is move to another country.

This sounds a little like the Hitler / Volkswagen story.

I know, I know, if ya don't like it, move to another country.

[Mkelcy]

This is why I said the Mkelcy doesn't understand who really creates jobs - which in turn creates taxes...

Spending on homes, furniture, appliances, cars, groceries, dental braces, etc. is what creates jobs. Only a fool believes that supply creates demand. Demand is what makes the economy go, not supply - and demand is created by the 47%, not the 1%. The wealthy have prospered during this downturn, yet I don't see the economy recovering; perhaps that's because the top 1% or top 30% really aren't the economy. As difficult as it may be for a Fox News adherent to believe, it may be that everyone needs to do well for all of us to do well. More higher incomes for all will do a lot to increase tax revenues - but that would mean senior corporate executives being paid what they produce - like their employees - rather than what they can convince their cronies on the board compensation committees (with the implicit "you wash my back, I'll wash yours" agreement) they're worth.

Obamacare didn't address the COSTS of healthcare.... if it had - I'd have been all for it. Instead he just created an entire new government bureaucracy.

If increased access to health care doesn't reduce costs, then I don't understand anything about the healthcare system. In California - as in the rest of the country - the single most expensive point of entry into the healthcare system is the ER. The fewer people whose only access to the healthcare system is the ER the better - and cheaper - for all of us. Obamacare is a big step in that direction. If you really want to reduce health care costs, eliminate the insurance companies and go to a single payer system. The 15% the healthcare companies can keep does nothing for health care and is entirely used for marketing and corporate profits.

Perhaps folks should educate themselves before pretending to have all the answers for the rest of us.

[camcojb]

I have been with Blue Cross the last 6 years. The highest increase year to year has been 5%. Just got the new rates for next year.................. 17% increase. And they even listed Obamacare as one of the reasons for the large increase. I did not hit a new age group, nothing changed. Didn't use my insurance at all the last three years.

I would like to know how forcing an insurance policy to have minimum specs like pre-natal care (which my wife and I do not need), or no co-pays on certain things, take on any pre-existing conditions, etc. would NOT raise the cost of the insurance. Maybe I don't understand how it works. But when you add on the extras and require everybody regardless of health to be covered, the price of the policy has to go up.

[syborg tt]

Spending on homes, furniture, appliances, cars, groceries, dental braces, etc. is what creates jobs. Only a fool believes that supply creates demand. Demand is what makes the economy go, not supply - and demand is created by the 47%, not the 1%. The wealthy have prospered during this downturn, yet I don't see the economy recovering; perhaps that's because the top 1% or top 30% really aren't the economy. As difficult as it may be for a Fox News adherent to believe, it may be that everyone needs to do well for all of us to do well. More higher incomes for all will do a lot to increase tax revenues - but that would mean senior corporate executives being paid what they produce - like their employees - rather than what they can convince their cronies on the board compensation committees (with the implicit "you wash my back, I'll wash yours" agreement) they're worth.



If increased access to health care doesn't reduce costs, then I don't understand anything about the healthcare system. In California - as in the rest of the country - the single most expensive point of entry into the healthcare system is the ER. The fewer people whose only access to the healthcare system is the ER the better - and cheaper - for all of us. Obamacare is a big step in that direction. If you really want to reduce health care costs, eliminate the insurance companies and go to a single payer system. The 15% the healthcare companies can keep does nothing for health care and is entirely used for marketing and corporate profits.

Perhaps folks should educate themselves before pretending to have all the answers for the rest of us.

Mike first off thank you for actually forcing me to use a dictionary today. I looked up the word adherent. I watch fox and after about two weeks I disliked Obama a little more then I did before watching fox. Then I went to MSN and realized they hate anyone that has been successful so I stopped watching them. Then I went to CNN and realized there just idiots.

So in the end where do we get the "said education" you are talking about?

I can tell you first hand that the ER isn't the most expensive place in a hospital. I just finished 4 rounds of FullFox Chemo at $9,000 a treatment and have switched to the Oral version of Xeloda Chemo at $4,000 a treatment which doesn't include blood work, labs and meeting with my Oncologist.

So I a living the medical nightmare right now and I am pretty confident that Obama Care isn't going to do anything for all of the bills coming in my direction.

The good news is I do have insurance at just shy of $26,000.00 a year with a $5,000.00 deductable. Why is it high well because I am a small business owner and we just don't get the good rates. We even looked and switching insurance companies to my wife's. Sorry sir your pre-existing condtions are not covered (previous cancer). The good new on that front in 2014 they will have to insure me but at what costs. My current agent is expecting our policy to go up not down by at least 8 to 10 percent.

So like Greg said they need to fix the cost. Why do i get a bill for $10,000 then after adjustment the bill is $4,000.00 ?

On a side note I did watch something very interesting on MSN about the rising cost of Seniors that will soon be on medicare & SS and good news they are living longer which means that we the people still working will be paying for them which I am more then ok with. Problem is the only way to pay for them is to increase our taxes on everyone. The 1% and now the 2% don't make enough to cover the rising cost.

[GregWeld]

Spending on homes, furniture, appliances, cars, groceries, dental braces, etc. is what creates jobs. Only a fool believes that supply creates demand. Demand is what makes the economy go, not supply - and demand is created by the 47%, not the 1%. The wealthy have prospered during this downturn, yet I don't see the economy recovering; perhaps that's because the top 1% or top 30% really aren't the economy. As difficult as it may be for a Fox News adherent to believe, it may be that everyone needs to do well for all of us to do well. More higher incomes for all will do a lot to increase tax revenues - but that would mean senior corporate executives being paid what they produce - like their employees - rather than what they can convince their cronies on the board compensation committees (with the implicit "you wash my back, I'll wash yours" agreement) they're worth.



If increased access to health care doesn't reduce costs, then I don't understand anything about the healthcare system. In California - as in the rest of the country - the single most expensive point of entry into the healthcare system is the ER. The fewer people whose only access to the healthcare system is the ER the better - and cheaper - for all of us. Obamacare is a big step in that direction. If you really want to reduce health care costs, eliminate the insurance companies and go to a single payer system. The 15% the healthcare companies can keep does nothing for health care and is entirely used for marketing and corporate profits.

Perhaps folks should educate themselves before pretending to have all the answers for the rest of us.



Okay -- You've won!

In the morning I'm going to donate all my worldly possessions to the Goodwill... and I'm going to live in a cardboard box. Surely that will make me see the light. :cheers: :lol:

[syborg tt]

Okay -- You've won!

In the morning I'm going to donate all my worldly possessions to the Goodwill... and I'm going to live in a cardboard box. Surely that will make me see the light. :cheers: :lol:

Can I just have the Mustang - Pretty please. I will treat it nice I promise

[camcojb]

Can I just have the Mustang - Pretty please. I will treat it nice I promise

I wanted it before you. :lol:

[syborg tt]

I wanted it before you. :lol:

Since I live in the Midwest maybe we can share the car. We only have about 4 good months. So I'll keep it for four months and you can have it for the other eight. I'd even be willing to split the insurance 50/50

[GregWeld]

But when you add on the extras and require everybody regardless of health to be covered, the price of the policy has to go up.



Jody ---


My take on Obamacare is that it is the most egregious tax ever levied on the "have nots" in the history of the USA. The people of this great country just haven't been hit with it yet. It's a nice "theory" that everyone should have health coverage... but this is the wrong way to go about it. It'll just end up being another bloated entitlement... mismanaged and rife with fraud.

The funny thing is -- the people that can "afford" healthcare -- already have it. The people that CAN NOT afford healthcare will now be forced to buy/pay, or be fined. The "fine" amount that I've heard ($600) is smaller than the cost of Obamacare. So many will just be forced to choose to pay more or just pay the fine which is less. My guess is that we'll build a bureaucracy to hunt down all the zillions that have no way to pay ... not even the fine... and they'll still be the ones showing up at the ER and we will treat them just as before i.e., the best medical care money can buy.


California's hospital ER's are full of NON US citizens... what are we going to do with them?

[camcojb]

Jody ---


My take on Obamacare is that it is the most egregious tax ever levied on the "have nots" in the history of the USA. The people of this great country just haven't been hit with it yet. It's a nice "theory" that everyone should have health coverage... but this is the wrong way to go about it. It'll just end up being another bloated entitlement... mismanaged and rife with fraud.

The funny thing is -- the people that can "afford" healthcare -- already have it. The people that CAN NOT afford healthcare will now be forced to buy/pay, or be fined. The "fine" amount that I've heard ($600) is smaller than the cost of Obamacare. So many will just be forced to choose to pay more or just pay the fine which is less. My guess is that we'll build a bureaucracy to hunt down all the zillions that have no way to pay ... not even the fine... and they'll still be the ones showing up at the ER and we will treat them just as before i.e., the best medical care money can buy.


California's hospital ER's are full of NON US citizens... what are we going to do with them?Greg,

I think it's the step they needed to take to get to single payer. They said they could not get there in one step, but if this law does what many think it will you'll have so much screaming from the middle class who's lost their coverage when their employer opts to drop it and pay the tax, or had to pay a bigger chunk of it from their employer that they can then push single payer through.

[GregWeld]

Can I just have the Mustang - Pretty please. I will treat it nice I promise

No -- I'm tired of supporting all those losers that work on it -- and paying all those track fees and buying fuel and tires.... so I'm going to cancel the trailer build (my apologies to the factory guys that will be laid off -- it's not my fault - it's the other 47% fault because they didn't pull their weight!).

I don't want to burden you with my castoffs... That would be too democratic of me right? I mean - I'd act like I was going to give you something - but I'd really just be giving you added expenses in reality!

:D

[GregWeld]

Greg,

I think it's the step they needed to take to get to single payer. They said they could not get there in one step, but if this law does what many think it will you'll have so much screaming from the middle class who's lost their coverage when their employer opts to drop it and pay the tax, or had to pay a bigger chunk of it from their employer that they can then push single payer through.



Single payer is just another step closer to socialism... Thank gawd we only have another 4 years to get there. :willy: :lol:

[Mkelcy]

Okay -- You've won!

In the morning I'm going to donate all my worldly possessions to the Goodwill... and I'm going to live in a cardboard box. Surely that will make me see the light. :cheers: :lol:

Cute, but not a substantive reply to my comments. I can see you don't want to discuss these issues seriously.

As for the anecdotal stories concerning health care - if we were a single payer system, everyone would be covered for the same basic (perhaps age adjusted) premium. Thank the GOP (and the insurance company lobbyists that bought them and their Democratic sympathizers) that the insurance companies are still involved, still need to be assured their profit, and therefore still need to be able to slice and dice the insurable populace to assure that they still "earn" that profit.

[hifi875]

If you think the single payer system is great, look at Canada. There is a lot of canadians on here. Ask them!
Healthcare is a privilege. If you truly can't afford it there are already systems in place. If you can but choose not to, then it's your problem, your responsibility. That's the problem, there is no personal responsibility, and Obama loves it

[fleetus macmullitz]

Please excuse the red, it just goes so good with the white and the blue. ;)

Here is something that I think we may all agree on. :) I saw it a few minutes ago and signed it.
__________________________________________________ _______

ACLJ ‏@ACLJ (https://twitter.com/ACLJ) We must stop sending billions of our tax dollars to radical regimes http://bit.ly/Uw2XE0 (http://t.co/VIeTK70L) Sign the petition. Stop funding radical regimes.

"Anti-American violence continues in an alarming number of Middle East and North African nations. With the Obama Administration continuing to send U.S. taxpayer dollars to these nations, Congress is taking action.

Congressional leaders are attempting to stop nearly $500 million dollars from being sent to Egypt. Soon there will be hearings to investigate the death of our Ambassador and other Americans in Libya. Support their efforts; sign our petition calling for the Obama Administration to stand up for America and halt the funding.
__________________________________________________

Petition to Stop Funding Radical Middle East Nations

"To: President Obama and Secretary of State Clinton
Your Administration must stand up for America - stop apologizing and condemn these abhorrent attacks. All U.S. funding to these countries must end until stable governments – which support America – are put in place."

http://bit.ly/Uw2XE0 (http://t.co/VIeTK70L)


Side note-I used to not give petitions much thought. However, I saw one of the ACLJ's recent petitions snowball into a worldwide effort that put so much pressure on our State Department and then the U.N. as well, that Iran released one of their own citizens, a peaceable young husband and father, from an Iranian prison who had been sentenced to death...for saying things they didn't like!

[syborg tt]

I agree !

Please excuse the red, it just goes so good with the white and the blue. ;)

Here is something that I think we may all agree on. :) I saw it a few minutes ago and signed it.
__________________________________________________ _______

ACLJ ‏@ACLJ (https://twitter.com/ACLJ) We must stop sending billions of our tax dollars to radical regimes http://bit.ly/Uw2XE0 (http://t.co/VIeTK70L) Sign the petition. Stop funding radical regimes.

"Anti-American violence continues in an alarming number of Middle East and North African nations. With the Obama Administration continuing to send U.S. taxpayer dollars to these nations, Congress is taking action.

Congressional leaders are attempting to stop nearly $500 million dollars from being sent to Egypt. Soon there will be hearings to investigate the death of our Ambassador and other Americans in Libya. Support their efforts; sign our petition calling for the Obama Administration to stand up for America and halt the funding.
__________________________________________________

Petition to Stop Funding Radical Middle East Nations

"To: President Obama and Secretary of State Clinton
Your Administration must stand up for America - stop apologizing and condemn these abhorrent attacks. All U.S. funding to these countries must end until stable governments – which support America – are put in place."

http://bit.ly/Uw2XE0 (http://t.co/VIeTK70L)


Side note-I used to not give petitions much thought. However, I saw one of the ACLJ's recent petitions snowball into a worldwide effort that put so much pressure on our State Department and then the U.N. as well, that Iran released one of their own citizens, a peaceable young husband and father, from an Iranian prison who had been sentenced to death...for saying things they didn't like!

[Fluid Power]

If you think the single payer system is great, look at Canada. There is a lot of canadians on here. Ask them!
Healthcare is a privilege. If you truly can't afford it there are already systems in place. If you can but choose not to, then it's your problem, your responsibility. That's the problem, there is no personal responsibility, and Obama loves it

Agreed.

I had my annual physical last week and asked my Doctor what he thought about this mess. He replied that if the government would just force the insurance companies to code services the same and allow him to submit payment request on a standard form, he would be miles ahead on paperwork. An interesting thought.

Darren

[Bucketlist2012]

@MKELCY....What is always with the Fox references ? And people are fools because they don't agree with you....You are just full of Liberal talking phrases that show a foolish side of yourself...So someone has a different point of view they must watch Fox ? Please, now that is ignorant.

We have our point of view based on real world experience..Just because we don't have your view of the world doesn't mean we watch Fox...That statement in itself is just a sheep herd talking point mentality...

Proof is in the pudding....The last 4 years have been a disaster...And the next 4 ? Well I won't say what will happen, but let's see where it leads..

You want real dialogue and debate, get off the calling people fools, and stop saying everyone who doesn't agree with you watches Fox...It is just a Liberal talking point, and not reality.

When the middle class pays for all the policies put in place, who will you blame ? When most people that are in need must drive gasoline powered cars and Obama and his energy Czar ON CAMERA said they want gasoline prices to be high like Europe to FORCE the green mandate, who will you blame ? Fox ? When the Obamacare tax hits the middleclass who will you blame ? Fox ? That argument is old and tired..The middle class is going to bear the costs and the poor will be crushed..

Our local charities are suffering the worst Inventory they have ever seen...The supplies to help the poor..The reporters say it is because people are struggling to pay their bills and gasoline, and higher food costs...Oh ya, it was ABC...So save your breath trying to blame me for watching Fox,haha... This is before 2013 when things get worse..

The printing and spending has devalued the currency or dollar unit to a point of danger...And forcing energy policies that raise the costs on the poor and middle class is just wrong...How many poor people are going to trade in their cars for a hybrid ? ZERO...So they suffer the energy mandate of this President, among other foolish policies.

[Bucketlist2012]

Funny after the Depression guys like Vanderbuilt,Rockerfeller,Carneige, and others brought the poor into the middle class.. They created Jobs to allow the poor to become middle class..

Did they reap obscene profits ? Sure they did, but without them the job creators, the poor wpould not have risen into the middle class..

Now ? Obama depends on his base of Poor voters...Trying to punish the rich is just political and not economics....It is to please his voters...In reality it won't pay the Debt...

So the middle will suffer the most, the poor will NOT be pulled up into the middle class, and the Rich will be the scapegoat but will still be rich...

That is my prediction for the next 4 years...And people will try to blame Bush, Fox news and the Right....Which is laughable at best.

P.S. I am not posting to change someone's mind..Even talking with friends with liberal views, I don't try to change their minds...Let them believe what they want. But when they try to say I am brainwashed by Fox, I wll call them on it everytime..I don't need to watch T.V or read the paper to know what is going on.

[Z10ROD]

we just need tax reform. everyone should pay the same % and all should pay for healthcare. how ever we get there. eventually we should get there.

I have just as much of a problem with the obstructionist congress as the entitlement rich white house.:willy:

[GregWeld]

we just need tax reform. everyone should pay the same % and all should pay for healthcare. how ever we get there. eventually we should get there.

I have just as much of a problem with the obstructionist congress as the entitlement rich white house.:willy:



I agree -- FLAT TAX -- personal and corporate... ZERO deductions. But I'd index the flat tax by income - less for those earning less and more for high earners. Maybe a 10 - 15 - 25% deal or something.

I agree on the congress/white house comment as well. We need to toss them all out and have a do-over. :cheers:

[Ron in SoCal]

I agree -- FLAT TAX -- personal and corporate... ZERO deductions. But I'd index the flat tax by income - less for those earning less and more for high earners. Maybe a 10 - 15 - 25% deal or something.

I agree on the congress/white house comment as well. We need to toss them all out and have a do-over. :cheers:

MY first response in this thread. Agree 100%...

[GregWeld]

Cute, but not a substantive reply to my comments. I can see you don't want to discuss these issues seriously.



Romney and I are in complete agreement on just giving up on the 47%... Why bother? You're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you.

There's just not much conversation to be had when one's view is that the glass is empty and the other guys is that it's full.

[Shmoov69]

@MKELCY....What is always with the Fox references ? And people are fools because they don't agree with you....You are just full of Liberal talking phrases that show a foolish side of yourself...So someone has a different point of view they must watch Fox ? Please, now that is ignorant .
There are some that throw direct insults at you if you don't have their same beliefs and thoughts. Rather than "whatever, thats not what I feel but I can agree to disagree and move on" they will imply you are an idiot and their dog is smarter than you are......
Quite typical. :rolleyes:

[Bucketlist2012]

There are some that throw direct insults at you if you don't have their same beliefs and thoughts. Rather than "whatever, thats not what I feel but I can agree to disagree and move on" they will imply you are an idiot and their dog is smarter than you are......
Quite typical. :rolleyes:

I agree with you...I know that I am not going to convince someone that my view is better...I don't really care to...Everyone is free to think and believe what they want....But when they try to tell me that I am a fool or that I must watch certain programs because of what I believe, it doesn't sit well with me.. And i won't let it just slide by unchecked.

I take care of MY economy and my Family..

Term limits would be nice....That way we could pump the septic tank of Politicians every few years..

[Shmoov69]

Agreed. :cheers:

[GregWeld]

So the middle will suffer the most, the poor will NOT be pulled up into the middle class, and the Rich will be the scapegoat but will still be rich...



AMEN!



They've already done the math --- I've heard it repeated on several news shows (as in CNBC - Not Fox! Which I've never watched) - that if you taxed the "rich" 1% ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of their income - you still couldn't balance the budget..

Thus the SPENDING needs to be reeled in --- and the taxes need to go up as well... And I think almost anyone with half a brain can understand that math. The problem is -- Nobody that's getting "help" wants to help - and nobody that's paying wants to pay more unless they get some spending cuts. I totally get that.

It's POLITICS.... and I think the PEOPLE of the United States of America are sick and tired of BS politics. I know I am.

All I ask is that the 535 plus the POTUS -- start to actually work for ALL the People rather than playing to their special group.

[SuperSport]

Proof is in the pudding....The last 4 years have been a disaster...And the next 4 ?
Only the last 4 years have been a disaster?

[Bucketlist2012]

Only the last 4 years have been a disaster?

For different reasons....But as far as working through the recession, the last 4 years have been a disaster...And how we got here was a disaster..

But we could go back really far including the disaster of Vietnam, But I was sticking to the Debt and Taxes..

And the quote was meant that if we agree that the last 4 have been a disaster, keeping the same Leaders will not change anything...And I don't expect them to change...So I won't be surprised when they don't.:cheers:

It is all about the lesser of two evils....I have my view on who is worse, but that doesn't mean that the other side is great.

[Mkelcy]

If anyone here considers being referred to as a Fox News viewer as an insult, perhaps there is hope for the right in this country. Otherwise, I'd like to be shown where I insulted anyone in this thread.

Otherwise, you boys keep working on your reach around technique, you're obviously enjoying yourselves. (For those keeping score at home, that was, and was intended to be, an insult.)

[Ron in SoCal]

Jeez Mike....you just validated Bucket's characterization of Libs. Congrats man; that's a promotion to irrelevance.

P.S. with the right female partner, a reach around aint so bad.

(That was not intended as a shot at for you Bucket)

[realcoray]

Romney and I are in complete agreement on just giving up on the 47%... Why bother? You're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you.

There's just not much conversation to be had when one's view is that the glass is empty and the other guys is that it's full.

But who are the 47%? People talk about insults here but I want to understand. I get that the feeling is too many people get free stuff or want free stuff from the government, but how do we arrive at the 47% figure, and how do we arrive at everyone who voted for Obama, wants free stuff and/or is poor, things stated repeatedly here.

Certainly some part of the 47% gets a check and is not or has not been a contributing member of society but most paid or provided service, and they pay taxes like anyone else.

Some percentage of that 47% is included because of the bush tax cuts, which pushed 8 million people completely off the tax rolls. The current talks are unlikely to change that because neither democrats nor republicans will go so far as to let them all expire forever, but it's worth noting where some of it comes from. The lesson from that is that you can't cut taxes, and then complain that some people dropped off from paying taxes.

Now let's talk rationally about the idea that only poor people who want stuff from Obama. If you look at the exit polls, from Fox news for example (seriously the first google result, not commenting anything about it), you'll see that Obama got at least 42% support from all income levels.

He did get strong support from those making < 30k, but is everyone making under 30k poor liberal garbage? Or is it more likely that it's generally comprised of young people who simply make < 30k now? For example they are in college. Young people voted at nearly the same percentage as "poor" people, so it's something to consider that they are likely one and the same group.

Essentially, around 45% of "rich" people supported Obama. Are those people part of the 47%?

I agree to an extent about government waste, people getting checks for nothing, and so forth, but you cannot complain about broad labels and attacking different groups like the rich, and then go and do that exact same thing, labeling those who think different than you as poor, stupid, etc.

[GregWeld]

The 47% was a 'reference' for those folks that Romney figured he could not reach regardless of what he said... I used it in the same manor. A reference to MKelcy - that I wasn't really interested in trying to change his mind. I figured he wasn't going to agree to ANYTHING that I would say.


I don't recall him (Romney) --- or me (GregWeld) --- labeling them as stupid.. or poor... The reference was simply that you can't reach everyone.


See, to me this is part of the problem. We get bogged down arguing semantics rather than the basic issues. Sorry - you can count me out of arguments like that. They're pointless. Let's stick to just trying to find, or arguing about, a solution rather than picking up on whether someone watches Fox news - or wants to challenge an idea based on semantics. :cheers:

[camcojb]

If anyone here considers being referred to as a Fox News viewer as an insult, perhaps there is hope for the right in this country. Otherwise, I'd like to be shown where I insulted anyone in this thread.

Otherwise, you boys keep working on your reach around technique, you're obviously enjoying yourselves. (For those keeping score at home, that was, and was intended to be, an insult.)

you never disappoint. :rolleyes:

[GregWeld]

It is all about the lesser of two evils....I have my view on who is worse, but that doesn't mean that the other side is great.



I think for most of the electorate... this has been the choice for the last several elections. The choice really hasn't been FOR someone as much as it has been AGAINST someone else. Sadly --- I lay that at the feet of BOTH parties. We just don't seem to be able to get someone (let's go back to Reagan who carried 49 of 50 states or on the democratic side - Clinton - although that's a stretch in reality because of Ross Perot) that a majority of people can seem to get behind.

I thought Obama was going to be "the leader" --- based on his first election. But he's clearly made his bed with labeling the "rich" as something no one should aspire to... and with the disaster (my own label) Obamacare.

I'm for everyone getting healthcare - I just don't agree with the Obamacare way of doing that. But that's just ONE issue. I never vote single issues. I ALWAYS vote for the PERSON that I think can do the best job overall. I'm a right down the middle kind of guy. I just want a LEADER that is for what's best for everyone.

[realcoray]

See, to me this is part of the problem. We get bogged down arguing semantics rather than the basic issues. Sorry - you can count me out of arguments like that. They're pointless. Let's stick to just trying to find, or arguing about, a solution rather than picking up on whether someone watches Fox news - or wants to challenge an idea based on semantics. :cheers:

Ok so here's a question. Let's say they come to an agreement before the end of the year. Let's say it has revenue and cuts in the ballpark of halfway in between what the first offers were, in the range of 2 trillion, probably 1.2 revenue, 800 cuts. Clearly not the silver bullet to the deficit but a start and just generally calms everyone down.

Next year, let's say they negotiate tax reform and vastly simplify the tax system. This is widely anticipated as both sides want to do it although of course they differ on the details, but let's again assume it ends up balanced. The expectation is most rates would drop except capital gains which may increase, but it's way early to say.

All of that happens, does your view of the president change at all? Take all of your ideas about what you think would fix things, like a flat tax and realistically look at what can be accomplished, and what would at least qualify as him doing a satisfactory job?

[GregWeld]

Ok so here's a question. Let's say they come to an agreement before the end of the year. Let's say it has revenue and cuts in the ballpark of halfway in between what the first offers were, in the range of 2 trillion, probably 1.2 revenue, 800 cuts. Clearly not the silver bullet to the deficit but a start and just generally calms everyone down.

Next year, let's say they negotiate tax reform and vastly simplify the tax system. This is widely anticipated as both sides want to do it although of course they differ on the details, but let's again assume it ends up balanced. The expectation is most rates would drop except capital gains which may increase, but it's way early to say.

All of that happens, does your view of the president change at all? Take all of your ideas about what you think would fix things, like a flat tax and realistically look at what can be accomplished, and what would at least qualify as him doing a satisfactory job?


That would qualify handily in my book! Then if "they" would modify Obamacare to create some cost controls in healthcare....he'd be the guy I voted for in 2008. :cheers:

[Mkelcy]

The 47% was a 'reference' for those folks that Romney figured he could not reach regardless of what he said... I used it in the same manor. A reference to MKelcy - that I wasn't really interested in trying to change his mind. I figured he wasn't going to agree to ANYTHING that I would say.


I don't recall him (Romney) --- or me (GregWeld) --- labeling them as stupid.. or poor... The reference was simply that you can't reach everyone.


See, to me this is part of the problem. We get bogged down arguing semantics rather than the basic issues. Sorry - you can count me out of arguments like that. They're pointless. Let's stick to just trying to find, or arguing about, a solution rather than picking up on whether someone watches Fox news - or wants to challenge an idea based on semantics. :cheers:

That's pretty funny because I've tried to engage you on who the real drivers of the economy are, and you "surrender," and then talk about all the folks you're keeping employed building a car trailer.

New housing starts at an annual rate of approximately 900,000 units in November mean jobs for housing construction, furniture, appliances, cars, schools, etc. We need consumers to buy those houses, which the "job creators" building them apparently think will be there, even in this Obama dominated economy.

You may think that car trailers, yachts and wine cellars for the 1% are the drivers of the economy, but that's simply not the case. Without consumers, there are no jobs. Perhaps you disagree and can explain why; or perhaps you disagree but can't explain why.

Here's the simple non-semantic assertion - without consumers, there are no jobs, and putting more dollars in the hands of the lower and middle class more directly translates to consumer spending and, yes, jobs.

Notice, no semantics, just clear assertions based on facts. But feel free to "surrender" again and preach to the true believers about the 47% leeches who are destroying this country.

[Mkelcy]

you never disappoint. :rolleyes:

Jody, if you'd just weigh in on the substance, rather than the tone, we might get somewhere. Greg feels free to state, with no objection from you or anyone else here, that I need to get more information than I can gleen from TV news, and that's just fine. I mention Fox News, and you all get up in arms. Got double standard much?

[GregWeld]

That's pretty funny because I've tried to engage you on who the real drivers of the economy are, and you "surrender," and then talk about all the folks you're keeping employed building a car trailer.

New housing starts at an annual rate of approximately 900,000 units in November mean jobs for housing construction, furniture, appliances, cars, schools, etc. We need consumers to buy those houses, which the "job creators" building them apparently think will be there, even in this Obama dominated economy.

You may think that car trailers, yachts and wine cellars for the 1% are the drivers of the economy, but that's simply not the case. Without consumers, there are no jobs. Perhaps you disagree and can explain why; or perhaps you disagree but can't explain why.

Here's the simple non-semantic assertion - without consumers, there are no jobs, and putting more dollars in the hands of the lower and middle class more directly translates to consumer spending and, yes, jobs.

Notice, no semantics, just clear assertions based on facts. But feel free to "surrender" again and preach to the true believers about the 47% leeches who are destroying this country.


I'm pretty sure that what I was saying is that I don't care to engage YOU. I love to discuss all kinds of stuff. I'm just not going to do so with YOU. You're like a drunk guy in the bar - you just want to pick a fight. I'm not interested in discussions like that.

[GregWeld]

Jody, if you'd just weigh in on the substance, rather than the tone, we might get somewhere. Greg feels free to state, with no objection from you or anyone else here, that I need to get more information than I can gleen from TV news, and that's just fine. I mention Fox News, and you all get up in arms. Got double standard much?



I'm a LARGER supporting member. Back to that 1% vs 47%.... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[camcojb]

Jody, if you'd just weigh in on the substance, rather than the tone, we might get somewhere. Greg feels free to state, with no objection from you or anyone else here, that I need to get more information than I can gleen from TV news, and that's just fine. I mention Fox News, and you all get up in arms. Got double standard much?

not a double standard at all Mike. I've let this one go, but then you have to go directly to "reach arounds". No excuse for that. You're the only one going to that level.

[Mkelcy]

I'm pretty sure that what I was saying is that I don't care to engage YOU. I love to discuss all kinds of stuff. I'm just not going to do so with YOU. You're like a drunk guy in the bar - you just want to pick a fight. I'm not interested in discussions like that.

I get that, many folks would prefer to avoid discussing an issue with someone who both disagrees and can muster facts rather than reaping the praise of the adoring sycophants.

Have at it, I won't bother trying to introduce facts into your wealthy guy pity party any more.

[Bucketlist2012]

not double standard at all Mike. I've let this one go, but then you have to go directly to "reach arounds". No excuse for that. You're the only one going to that level.

That is the point I have been making..Nothing wrong with others that have different opinions, it is how it is stated..

The "tone" and insults cannot be denied...I don't care how many facts someone wants to try to impress people with, if they post like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum no one is going to take them serious...

And the Fox reference is not taken as an insult, but rather as a Liberal talking point.

And the reach around comment ? I did not expect anything less from the guy...He is a classic example of a extremist leftist...No better than a extremist from the right...No better at all..

[realcoray]

That would qualify handily in my book! Then if "they" would modify Obamacare to create some cost controls in healthcare....he'd be the guy I voted for in 2008. :cheers:

What sort of cost controls?

You know I work in a business related to health care and the fascinating thing that I've learned since being exposed to it is how very dependent health care providers are on government help.

Here's an example. If you are a health care provider, the government will pay you 44k to adopt electronic health records and demonstrate you're using them. That's 44k PER doctor. The software to do that is not cheap but many facilities profit from the program.

Now, in a year or two, if you haven't switched over the government will start to penalize you. Now, how can they do that, that encourages people to switch? Cut medicare payments by 1%. It goes up from there, but a 1% cut in medicare payment is a legitimate incentive to these places to sometimes spend millions of dollars to be ready to avoid not getting that 1%.

In essence, any tweak at all to medicare reimbursements causes doctors to not be pleased.

A major source of cost increases is useless tests and imaging that occurs. Everyone who bonks their head, demands a MRI and hospitals LOVE that because while the machines do cost millions, it's a huge profit center for them.

The difficulty here is who can step in and question the need for the MRI. You don't want your insurance being a dick when you legitimately need one, and the hospital is unlikely to police themselves, in particularly with a procedure with nearly no risk of being sued and some risk of being sued if you miss something.

Of course being sued is part of the cost of health care and should probably be looked at, but you have to balance things out. On one hand everyone makes mistakes but a doctors mistakes can mean your family member died. They should probably be capped or some sort of sliding scale of awards, I'm not sure. I can say that the doctors most likely to be sued for malpractice, make the most money to compensate for that.

[Bucketlist2012]

I get that, many folks would prefer to avoid discussing an issue with someone who both disagrees and can muster facts rather than reaping the praise of the adoring sycophants.

Have at it, I won't bother trying to introduce facts into your wealthy guy pity party any more.

Your posts are why no one takes you seriously....You went off the edge and you cannot crawl back up...

No one takes you serious anymore. And you are to blame. you see RealCorey doesn't agree with us, but the way he discusses things makes us want to discuss things with him...He posts like an adult, you don't..BIG difference..

We can continue discussing opposing views with an Adult, Real Corey...He doesn't agree with some of us, but it is a pleasure to exchange ideas with him..You, like greg says, the drunk at the bar...No one listens...You want to be heard ? Change your attitude..

[camcojb]

let's get this back on track so we don't have to shut it down. :yes:

[Bucketlist2012]

let's get this back on track so we don't have to shut it down. :yes:

You bet

I will be exiting stage left..

After all,this is a CAR site...:lateral:

[Shmoov69]

let's get this back on track so we don't have to shut it down. :yes:

Can we talk about religion now?!?! LMAO!!!:lol: :willy:

[camcojb]

You bet

I will be exiting stage left..

After all,this is a CAR site...:lateral:

good idea Mike. I think we'll call this a wrap. We don't allow political topics on the site for the most part, but this one went a lot longer and better than I thought it would, so for those participating I thank you. :thumbsup: