Commander 950 vs FAST and BS3

[davepl]

I am looking for a FI setup for my bigblock, and I noticed that if you're buying the manifold, rails, TB etc from Holley, its only about another $500 or so to get the ECU. Since BS3 and FAST run into the thousands, it seems pretty tempting.

The only downside I can spot offhand is that it needs an additional module to control low-impedance injectors, so with a large blower, I'd need to add that module and my own injectors later.

Other than that, are there significant issues I should know about with the 950 compared to the more expensive FAST and BS3 solutions?

Thanks!
- Dave

[ohcbird]

What, no Gen 7? They offer the best driveability (IMHO). Maybe Andrew B can comment on why their setup comes that way...

[ProStreet R/T]

What, no Gen 7? They offer the best driveability (IMHO). Maybe Andrew B can comment on why their setup comes that way...

DFI is old and busted in comparison to BS3, not even in the same sport let alone ball park.

With a blower motor your going to be running some big injectors, when you price the driver and such it's not that much more for top of the line equipment. I honestly don't know much about 950, never had a chance to play with one. I have however had the origional FAST (not xfi), DFI, and BS3 in my hot hands and done some work with them. Fast is definitely the oldest of the bunch and it shows, things don't load as fast, no updates with the key off, and it's just missing a few features of the newer stuff. That being said it's still a great system and MANY people run it on some very very fast cars. I have it on my truck and it's more than adequate to tame my 408 on CA pump gas, and will control all the nitrous I can throw at it.

DFI has a better injector driver so it will power big low imp's and still idle great. I'm not sure at what point it makes a huge difference, and a lot has to do with your ability to tune the system. I personally ran 42# for quite a while N/A and the FAST worked great. When I droped the 83# in it idle quality got a little choppy. Not the end of the world but enough to notice.

After setting up one BS3 I hate playing with anything else. It's by far the superior system in every respect. The baseline tune is very easy to get up and running, you can make adjustments to the pcm for 30min with the key off , it has a great multi-stage boost controller, awesome injector driver. It's just about perfect for 95% of the applications right out of the box. Plus you don't have to run that $400 FAST wideband O2. It's the only system I've ever used that we went from a blank program, doing system checks, to on the road drivability tuning with in an hour. Try that with anything else, most people wouldn't know where to start with 50 blank maps, the system really walks you through it and gets an excellent base line.

Figure out what your budget is and what you want the system to do. You can find used FAST boxes for dirt cheap these days depending if you want sequential or bank to bank. Even a new BS3 is in the $1600 range, injectors, fuel system, and you can make it happen under $2500.

[davepl]

Cool. Have you used the auto-tune on the BS3 at all? Do you think its a useful feature?

I used to drive around hitting the L key on the FAST, and it sounds like thats somewhat automated with the BS3.

The only problem I could see with the BS3 is that the Windows software is sort of amatuerish... they should really get software guys for software and hardware guys for hardware: I could write a deadly UI, but I can barely solder :-)

[ohcbird]

Old and busted? Uh, ok...... You proceed to say that, then spend a paragraph extolling the less-than-virtues of the FAST? Despite not agreeing with you there, you do make some good points on the other stuff. The BS3 is what you make of it- basically Gen 7 code that Meany took with him (and pays for with each box you buy). I like 'em- no issues there. I just feel that a Gen 7 (as you pointed out) works for me.

Dave- What are your power goals & how much track / street time will this thing see?

[PTAddict]

I've used the first generation FAST and the BS3 on my two projects. They both work pretty well, but the BS3 definitely has some nice features compared with the old FAST (like customizable axes on the fuel/spark tables). The new XFI looks very nice as well, and the software documentation (online at the FAST site) looks clearer than the BS3. Also, the new XFI has switchable calibrations, which would be nice for pump gas/high octane tunes, etc.

But if I were on a budget, I'd go with the 950, which has worked well for lots of folks. There's very good knowledge and support on the chevy talk forum, including a very responsive Holley engineer (Doug Flynn).

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB12

[PTAddict]

Oops, I see you've already posted the question on that forum ...

[Majik16106]

I was looking at the fast system, my project is a blown 500ci mopar, 8.5:1 c/r with a d1-sc at about8-9 psi, all street, very mild cam( even for a blower motor) nothing but 91-93 octane. but i may take a look at the bs3. all i want is a single tune, and just drive on it. the only reason im going fi instead of carb is for the streetability, its worth 2500 to me to just be able to start up right away, idle perfect, and smooth powerband. I will probably still use the fast... but the bs3 is looking more enticing.

[andrewb70]

The biggest high impedance injectors that are available are 65lb/hr. You can use those with the Commander without any issue.
If I was to do a project today, I would probably use MegaSquirt.

Andrew

[J2SpeedandCustom]

I would probably use MegaSquirt

I wondered when someone was going to bring up the Squirt... :lol:

Won't touch it with a ten foot pole!!! The BS3 in my mind is the best all around choice. Great software, comes with a very complete wiring harness, and a nice O2 sensor that doesn't break the bank to replace. Plus you can pick up some nice Kavlico sensors for fuel, map, etc and the drivers are a piece of cake to setup.

[Majik16106]

megasquirt... ewwww.

sorry, i come from import world, and a TON of Z car guys use it on turbo and small block converted early model Z cars.. i hate it.

[V8bug]

I am running a Megasquirt II controlling fuel and spark and It seems just fine to me, not to mention I have only $600 into the computer, relay board, and wiring. I could have spent even less if I was to assemble it myself.
Theres a guy, Parish i think, who is running a megasquirt on a chevy pickup with a single turbo lsx motor making over a 1000hp to the wheels. It works great for him.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245059&highlight=megasquirt

[andrewb70]

I wondered when someone was going to bring up the Squirt... :lol:

Won't touch it with a ten foot pole!!! The BS3 in my mind is the best all around choice. Great software, comes with a very complete wiring harness, and a nice O2 sensor that doesn't break the bank to replace. Plus you can pick up some nice Kavlico sensors for fuel, map, etc and the drivers are a piece of cake to setup.

To say that BS3 has great software is a little...optimistic. I have seen it and it looks like a bit cluncky to say the least.I for one am not a fan of an ECU that encorporates a wideband controller. I have had nothing but great luck with the FJO units and will continue to use them. By having an external wideband controller you are not putting all your egg in one basket. If the ECU takes a crap its not a total loss. The side benefit to using the FJO wideband controller is the ability to use either the Bosch sensor or the NTK sensor. The Bosch sensor is inexpensive and works great for unleaded fuel. The NTK is a must when using race fuel, if you want to sensor to live.

Andrew

[J2SpeedandCustom]

The side benefit to using the FJO wideband controller is the ability to use either the Bosch sensor or the NTK sensor. The Bosch sensor is inexpensive and works great for unleaded fuel. The NTK is a must when using race fuel, if you want to sensor to live.
Andrew

If you like to tune on the street I agree. The FJO is a great unit. The BS3 software isn't that bad...at least it's easy to use than a Motec. :lol:

I think for someone that is a first timer or doesn't want to spend alot of time learning how to tune the BS3 is a better choice. Heck the 950 Holley is almost brainless but doesn't have anywhere near the options of the BS3.

[J2SpeedandCustom]

Theres a guy, Parish i think, who is running a megasquirt on a chevy pickup with a single turbo lsx motor making over a 1000hp to the wheels. It works great for him.

Yep I believe Jim is running a Megasuirt piggyback on top of LS1 edit and the stock ecu. The truck is fast and fun to watch on the street.

[andrewb70]

I think for someone that is a first timer or doesn't want to spend alot of time learning how to tune the BS3 is a better choice. Heck the 950 Holley is almost brainless but doesn't have anywhere near the options of the BS3.

For everyones benefit, can you please list the features that the BS3 has that are not present in the Commander 950 system?

Thanks,
Andrew

[camcojb]

The biggest high impedance injectors that are available are 65lb/hr. You can use those with the Commander without any issue.
If I was to do a project today, I would probably use MegaSquirt.

Andrew

They've got 75's now, I have a set in the garage for the GTO. Problem is now I'm going to BS3 and will have to buy some low impedance units.

Jody

[J2SpeedandCustom]

For everyones benefit, can you please list the features that the BS3 has that are not present in the Commander 950 system?
Thanks,
Andrew

Here ya go. I'm not a BS3 expert by any means...

http://www.bigstuff3.com/gen3featurecom.pdf

[andrewb70]

Here ya go. I'm not a BS3 expert by any means...

http://www.bigstuff3.com/gen3featurecom.pdf

If you are not an expert, then how can you make claims to BS3s superiority? The truth of the matter is that most of the features that are listed on the sheet in the link above focus on:

Coil on Plug ignition
Sequential Ignition (and the features that can go along with it such as individual cylinder trim)
Staged injection

The Commander 950 has some standard features that are options on BS3, like internal data logging.

So for a normal guy, that has a traditional engine with a distributor the Commander 950 is a much better value. This is especially true considering the comprehemsive manual that is included with the Commander 950 system.

http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/199R10149-7.pdf

And if you are running an LSx based engine or another engine that requires Coil on Plug support, then a nother great value is the EMS system from Australia.

http://www.fuel-injection.com

Andrew

[J2SpeedandCustom]

If you are not an expert, then how can you make claims to BS3s superiority?

So for a normal guy, that has a traditional engine with a distributor the Commander 950 is a much better value. This is especially true considering the comprehemsive manual that is included with the Commander 950 system.

Andrew

Where did I say the BS3 was superior? Oh that's right I didn't! I believe the thread topic is about a comparison. I am giving my opinion just like you are. So guess what no one is wrong in this situation so chill. :rolleyes:

[PTAddict]

The BS3 can be configured as fully sequential, with adjustable timing of the injector pulse vs. crank angle (helps with idle quality, if you know what to try). The BS3 has configurable axes for RPM and MAP in the fuel/spark tables - may not sound like a big deal, but especially with bigger cams having the ability to have more cells at the lower RPM/MAP areas can make the difference between OK driveability and really good driveability. Speaking from personal experience. Also, the BS3 has quite sophisticated accel enrichment functions, of some interest if you have big cams or oversize throttle body.

The MS has plenty of capability, but I would never recommend it to the EFI novice unless you're on a tight budget, very technically oriented, and have the patience to spend plenty of time on forums and email figuring out how all the deep-in technical documentation applies to your particular situation. Unlike the Holley, FAST, or BS3 solutions, there's no one place to go when trying to figure out all of the details of install and configuration. If you understand EFI basics well to begin with, MS has by far the most capability per dollar (but not the most ultimate capability).

The Commander 950 seems to be a solid product, with generally positive feedback from the online world, and good informal support (see above). If you're not pushing the boundaries on streetability, it's likely to work as well as almost any other solution.

[540]

How does the TEC3 compare with there rest of the pack.

[Speedster]

The TEC3 is a very high end system. It is extremely configurable: sequential, TBI, bank to bank, staged...It also contains 60 (-2) crank trigger teeth which is every 6 degrees compared to something like an MSD which has a magnetic trigger every 90 degrees. It then converts this to signal to angular momentum versus the not as accurate time-based interpolation. For most systems this is probably overkill, but it works. It also has additional controls for boost, four stage retard for nitrous, shift lights, water pumps, fans, torque converters, etc. Quite a bit of goodies. Plus the ignition utilizes multi coil packs. This is based on info I compiled during my due dilligence :willy:for EFI systems FWIW.

[427ls1]

If you're not using FJO to run your engine , you have nothing.







p.s. FJO is making ALL of the holley commander programs, and nitrous controllers for nx + nos, many many more and hardware based out of Winnipeg Manitoba Canada.

[camcojb]

If you're not using FJO to run your engine , you have nothing.







p.s. FJO is making ALL of the holley commander programs, and nitrous controllers for nx + nos, many many more and hardware based out of Winnipeg Manitoba Canada.

I certainly wouldn't go that far.

Jody