Watch out for Progressive Insurance

[tellyv]

Well I've owned a collision shop now for almost 10 years now and I cant say how crappy most of the insurance companies are, they really try to screw eveyone over as much as possible. Well now Progressive is stepping way over the line I'm sure you've seen there commercials were you can just drop off your car and they'll deal with everything, well your car gets shopped to their drp's (direct repair shops) and you get the cheapest repair possible. Now their making all of their customers go to their drps shops for estimates this means you can still have your shop of choice repair the car but it has to be fixed by Progessives drp's estimate. So what this means is your getting screwed and by the way it's illegal and I'm not sure how they can get away with it but they are. So for the love of god drop your Progressive auto insurance and find something better. Now I'm also not saying that all drp shops are bad or do crappy work just that it's you right to have you shop of choice fix the car to their standards not Progressive's. This is whats going to kill the small shops in a couple years so stand up and don't let them push you around. Sorry for the rant. Telly

[jimbo]

They have been doing that in the Detroit area for about 5 years.
A little over a year ago AAA started a pilot program that is pretty much the same thing. Dont know what Progressives rates are but AAA's are about $8 an hour less for this program.

[rwhite692]

I agree it sucks, but, is it illegal?

I'll bet that, buried in the million-word contract that the customer accepts when they sign up w/Progressive, they have language that stipulates that they (progressive) have total control over where the repairs are done....If the customer accepts the terms (which they must, in order for the policy to be activated)...they are screwed...

I have Farmers insurance on all the vehicles, RV, etc and they have been good.

[coolwelder62]

Telly give Ted H. a call he is a master of dealing w/insurance ajusters.He sued state farm over the same reason and won.Scott

[tellyv]

I'm just telling everyone to watch out. I don't plan on fighting anyone or anything it's a loosing battle just beware and don't let them tell you where to get your car repaired, call your agent and see what there rules are and if they try to steer you away from your shop of choice get a different insurance company.

[Flash68]

Glad I switched from Progressive to Farmers last year.

[Stuart Adams]

Progressive was a huge money contributor to the Obama Campaign!!!

[Hdesign]

Progressive was a huge money contributor to the Obama Campaign!!!

Where do you think they got the name "PROGRESSIVE" from? LOL

[Sandbagger]

We loose repeat customers due to steering every week .Quality shop too.
There are a few shops who have stood up to the insurance companies , and have suffered .So we either give the work away for free or do less volume .
I choose to do less and keep up the quality . 25 year guy and im spent . The biz is set up for volume , NOW THERE IS NO VOLUME !!!
I used to handle 5-8 cars a week, now two or three .
**** S.F. too I think they want me to mow there lawn too .




thanks for editing that four letter verb...my bad

[tellyv]

We loose repeat customers due to steering every week .Quality shop too.
There are a few shops who have stood up to the insurance companies , and have suffered .So we either give the work away for free or do less volume .
I choose to do less and keep up the quality . 25 year guy and im spent . The biz is set up for volume , NOW THERE IS NO VOLUME !!!
I used to handle 5-8 cars a week, now two or three .
**** S.F. too I think they want me to mow there lawn too .




thanks for editing that four letter verb...my bad

I'm done fighting and going to get a real job! I'm closing the doors at the end of march I actually hate dealing with the insurance company's so much I'm ready to snap and go postal, time to get out while I still have a little sanity left. I'll go put my 40 hours in and actually sleep at night.

[Steve68]

My buddy has a body shop, and Progressive will search to the end of time looking for used parts to put on a car, I've seen one sit for over 30 days,

[andrewmp6]

One of my friends works at the highest price body shop here but they are worth the money.Hes told me stories about insurance companies trying to be as cheap as they can on everything.But a insurance company is still a company they have to pay there bills and make a profit like everyone else out there.

[tellyv]

One of my friends works at the highest price body shop here but they are worth the money.Hes told me stories about insurance companies trying to be as cheap as they can on everything.But a insurance company is still a company they have to pay there bills and make a profit like everyone else out there.

Have you noticed any of the buildings they own? Just like government, taking everything they can from us and giving very little in return. Trust me they make alot of money off of us and now with the internet these companies can eliminate all kinds of man power to make them take in even more money.

[DOOM]

This is exactly why I'm going in a new direction with my shop 20+ years of the same BS !!!

[Fluid Power]

As body shop owners, who is a good insurance company to work with?

Darren

[tellyv]

That's a hard question to answer, not many Farmers and AmFam seam ok for bigger companies but I've had problems with them also. I dont really have the answer.

[Sandbagger]

Have you noticed any of the buildings they own? Just like government, taking everything they can from us and giving very little in return. Trust me they make alot of money off of us and now with the internet these companies can eliminate all kinds of man power to make them take in even more money.

Body labor s 46-48.00 . around here ,been at that rate since 2004 . After you see all the bills from paint to soap there aint much left .
I know a few S.F. adjusters that make 65-70 k


If they had to work on the line they would be crying for there mommy by Wednesday .

[Sandbagger]

[CENTER][/CENTE



Im on my way to the Proggressive Chicago Motorcycle Show ,
Have to drop a tank off I just repaired
Oh yea they arent making $$:rofl:

[Stuart Adams]

Where do you think they got the name "PROGRESSIVE" from? LOL


It was huge dollars also. Just means if your giving politicians huge money, their must be corruption. And more importantly, the company is charging its insured too much and paying body shops too little for repairs. Just simple econ 101.

[Beegs]

Where do you think they got the name "PROGRESSIVE" from? LOL

THAT is funny!!!!!

[ProTouring442]

Ah yes, Progressive insurance...

According to articles on Wikipedia;

In 2009, the company was sued for allegedly deceiving policyholders by employing illegally-operated, unlicensed body shops to make repairs on vehicles for their clients in order to save money. The class action lawsuit of Blue Ash Auto Body Inc. v. Progressive Insurance is pending in Ohio.

In 2007, the company apologized after it was revealed they hired private investigators to infiltrate a church group and pose as congregation members to collect information on litigants seeking redress from the company. Another lawsuit was filed by the litigants over the affair against the company for invasion of privacy and fraud.

In 2002, the company settled with the State of Georgia in a class action lawsuit over diminished value claims brought by policyholders.

Further, the chairman of Progressive, Peter Lewis has donated;

$3,000,000 to the Marijuana Policy Project

$10,000,000 to America Coming Together (a left wing organization)

$2,500,000 to MoveOn.org (do I have to explain?)

$15,000,000 to the ACLU

$159,005 in support of Proposition 19 (California) A.K.A. the Regulate, Control & Tax Cannabis Act

A real tool if you ask me.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[MattO]

I'm no lawyer, but I do know that the law states that you can take your car wherever you want and they HAVE to pay that shop for their estimate (the shop, not the insurer). Regardlerss of anything that is in their legal paperwork when you sign on with them as an insured body, you have the legal right to tell them where your car will be repaired.

[Sandbagger]

So howdo we go about getting a labor rate increase . Ive been complaining for years .. There will always be a shop that will do it a few bucks cheaper.
Suggestions ??? legal ones

[tellyv]

Legally we don't suppose to discuss labor rates but they don't suppose to be able to steer our customers either so every shop needs to be on the same page with the same rates which will never happen. There's to many greedy shops that will do stuff cheaper just to get the work (drp's). So basically nothing is going to change. And there's to many people like me who are just going to quit and get out before it gets even worse.

[BBC69Camaro]

$3,000,000 to the Marijuana Policy Project

$10,000,000 to America Coming Together (a left wing organization)

$2,500,000 to MoveOn.org (do I have to explain?)

$15,000,000 to the ACLU

$159,005 in support of Proposition 19 (California) A.K.A. the Regulate, Control & Tax Cannabis Act


Can we keep the politics out of this thread please?

A sleezy company is a sleezy company regardless of the politics of owners/people running the company.

Thanks :thumbsup:

[lnirenberg]

As for profit entities, all insurance company's are established to take our money and pay out as little as possible, whether their insuring your car, your house, your health whatever. The claims reps are taught a single catch all answer to all questions--NO. They all suck, the most important elements in the process is to have an agent that you trust to help you navigate the minefield and take it to a body shop that knows the game. My wife was in an accident last year and I brought it to a friend's body shop and he informed me that my coverage required new OEM parts only. I had no idea but my agent did and it cost no more than my previous policy. On the other hand, I had Safety Insurance on my company car and I was side swiped by a lady driving a Crown Vic who ran a red light while playing with her dog. It was an MB SUV and it was obvious to me it was totaled. The adjuster estimated $9k of damage and I laughed and bet him dinner it was at least $30k. Under Safety's rules the vehicle had to be fixed because of this ridiculous estimate and after 6 supplements, over 200 individual parts and 3 months, the total cost was--$42k for a vehicle that had a book value of 56k. They offered me $29 a day to rent a car and for anyone who has rented a car in the Boston area that gets you a Geo or a Corolla previously rented by smokers and not cleaned since the 1st Bush presidency and that's if you get a deal. The law here is comparable vehicle and I told the claims agent they could either pay for the car or pay for the car and my legal fees when I sued them, so they made an "exception" just for me which cost them another $6000. I was such a pain in the ass that someone at Safety finally figure out that the adjuster really f***ed up and he lost his job for which I feel no remorse because he was an idiot and besides he never bought me dinner. Thankfully the vehicle was leased which means when MB went to sell it with the carfax report they must have lost their ass. Insurance companies are blood sucking parasites and you need to fight to the death to get what you paid for. Other than that, I have no strong feelings about insurance companies one way or the other!

[Fluid Power]

None of them they all s**k. Most of time it's just the adjuster that works for a particular insurer. Adjusters have the ability to paid the bill. Most don't though because they don't want to lose their job.

As shop owner I have suggested Insurance company's that I know I have a good adjusters in my area I won't have problems with.

When buying insurance you should NOT buy it base on price. You can buy policys that states OEM parts, it cost a little more, but you can buy it.

When it gets right down to it, it's not the body shops problem that the insurer won't pay. That's the customers problem. This is what most auto body shop owners don't get and never will.

Probably the best advice. Which, like most things, is buy from someone that values you as a customer, realizes that if he keeps the customer happy, they will stay a long time. I have yet to find an insurance guy that would do any of these things. I had an interesting issue when I first bought my 69 Camaro. It was not restored at this point and had my guy write a policy for it. The bill shows up and it is listed as a 67 coupe, not a 69 convertible. I called, he said it would be fixed by the next billing cycle. Next billing cycle, still listed the same way. Called and asked about it to which he replied, "I am not sure what the big deal is." My next call was to another insurance company. I am not sure if I was involved in an accident with car being underwritten was a 69 and not a 67, let alone a convertible and not a coupe, but it seems like it should be "a big deal" and I did not want to find out if it was or wasn't. Seems pretty basic to get that part right.

Darren

[will69camaro]

Switched from Farmers to USAA recently and knocked my rate down by about 40%. Pretty excited about it!

[Fluid Power]

Switched from Farmers to USAA recently and knocked my rate down by about 40%. Pretty excited about it!

I think you are missing the point of the discussion. If you get in a wreck, and they monkey up the car sending it to a DRP shop who doesn't care if the car has junk parts and just cranks the work through without regard to the proper repair techniques and work quality, did your 40% premium reduction save you any money in the long run?

Maybe the car you are insuring warrants that kind of policy, in some instances it could be a nightmare.

[kennyd]

I think you are missing the point of the discussion. If you get in a wreck, and they monkey up the car sending it to a DRP shop who doesn't care if the car has junk parts and just cranks the work through without regard to the proper repair techniques and work quality, did your 40% premium reduction save you any money in the long run?

Maybe the car you are insuring warrants that kind of policy, in some instances it could be a nightmare.

This is the typical comment that a non-drp shop will make . i have a bodyshop that is a drp for allstate , hartford ,usaa , progressive ,shelter ,statefarm, phh , and wheels . WE ( complete shop ) are I-car gold . we do 25-30 car a week , every car i would send my wife and kid anywhere in at anytime ! so to say they " monkey up " the car is not correct !
plus we just fixed a car that farmers wrote the estimate on and guess what , it had the same " type " of aftermarket parts on it . NON DRP

i hate to see small shops go out of business BUT thats not a insurance companys fault .

[tellyv]

This is the typical comment that a non-drp shop will make . i have a bodyshop that is a drp for allstate , hartford ,usaa , progressive ,shelter ,statefarm, phh , and wheels . WE ( complete shop ) are I-car gold . we do 25-30 car a week , every car i would send my wife and kid anywhere in at anytime ! so to say they " monkey up " the car is not correct !
plus we just fixed a car that farmers wrote the estimate on and guess what , it had the same " type " of aftermarket parts on it . NON DRP

i hate to see small shops go out of business BUT thats not a insurance companys fault .

Ok now tell us what your giving up to be the drp for these guys, a break in labor, parts? Theres something that they want from you to be their drp's and that my friend undercuts the smaller shops, I'm not saying the all drps do crappy work but thats steering in my mind and thats illegal! The agents should stay out of it period!

[kennyd]

Ok now tell us what your giving up to be the drp for these guys, a break in labor, parts? Theres something that they want from you to be their drp's and that my friend undercuts the smaller shops, I'm not saying the all drps do crappy work but thats steering in my mind and thats illegal! The agents should stay out of it period!

What i give to the insurance is a great repair at a standard price , no labor discounts , no parts discounts , i do charge for haz waste , mask for overspray , color sand and buff as a xtra on 2010 and 2011 cars and charge for towbills .
i have turned down insurance companys that ask for discounts , because that makes me have to cut my workers $ per hour . My workers and family's are #1 . i want them to make money , lots of money , BECAUSE if they make money i make money .

yes, i agree thats steering , yes, i agree it hurts the smaller shops , BUT it helps my workers and my shop . i do not feel bad for the smaller shops they had the chance to get on the drp's just like me , pay you time and do a great job for the customer #1 and think about the insurance as #2 .

[kennyd]

In my professional opinion, I-car and I-car gold certified, in its original concept was a great program and what you learned was easily applied to what we do. In the last ten years, I-car is about money. Think about this; most insurance adjusters are now becoming I-car and I-car Gold certified, how many of you shop owners would hire a 22 year old college grad who was I-car certified but never ever worked on a car? So, just because you are I-car certified doesn’t mean you can do the actual work.

Maybe someone can explain why in a dealership situation the mechanical side of the shop can be any where from $85.00 to $120.00 per hour but when you go 200 feet in the same dealers body shop, they can work for $42.00 per hour. Is the over head different in that part of the building? What’s the difference; it’s the insurers interfering in our industry. Not to take anything away from mechanics but who has more artistic ability? Collision repairers and refinishers have an unbelievable amount of artistic ability with no diagnostic tools, so shouldn’t we be paid on a equal level as mechanics? The reason we don’t get paid is the mechanical industry doesn’t have a third party interfere with their business. Again in my opinion, DRP’s hurt the industry as a whole but the little guy gets hurt most because of steering. About 90% of all vehicle owners are “steered” because of the insurer word tracks. Statements like “we work well with XXX but if you go to that shop you are on your own” or” they over charge” and “they charge to much” or “they are not on our list”.

To be on a DRP you have to also give concessions like, not charging storage or eating the tow bill, not charging for hazardous waste or wet sand and buff or even labor rate concessions. Lets me ask you this, if a client who has no insurance or has a company that is willing to pay for storage or towing or wet sand and hazardous waste do you give it to them free like you partner insure? Why wouldn’t you charge everyone the same? Would it not be discrimination not to? To make up for these items (if you do them at all) where does that money come from? The only way I know of is to use the LCS method. For these reasons a good portion of DRP work is not as good as it should be. We all know there are hacks on both sides of the street but in all of our “post repair inspections” the hackers are the DRP’s”.

i have had I-car gold bodymen that are hack job employees ! i have had bodymen that are not i-car that are the best bodymen in the country .
i had a bodyshop in the area that claims to be the " best " , i have seen cars come out of his " best " shop i would not take home !
ITS A TEAM EFFORT ON COLLISION REPAIR , FROM THE ESTIMATOR TO THE BODYMAN TO THE PAINTER TO THE CLEANUP MAN !

[tellyv]

What i give to the insurance is a great repair at a standard price , no labor discounts , no parts discounts , i do charge for haz waste , mask for overspray , color sand and buff as a xtra on 2010 and 2011 cars and charge for towbills .
i have turned down insurance companys that ask for discounts , because that makes me have to cut my workers $ per hour . My workers and family's are #1 . i want them to make money , lots of money , BECAUSE if they make money i make money .

yes, i agree thats steering , yes, i agree it hurts the smaller shops , BUT it helps my workers and my shop . i do not feel bad for the smaller shops they had the chance to get on the drp's just like me , pay you time and do a great job for the customer #1 and think about the insurance as #2 .

For years I've been the busiest shop around my area, and that's due to the work we put out, the last 3 years I have struggled to make a profit and I watch everything, paint, bondo, buy in bulk for better deals, and I hunt for cheaper parts. I just don't see the future in this business anymore its a revolving cycle you get a car in get it done cash the check pay your bills and theres nothing left. The whole problem is we should not have to listen to the insurance companies, they dicktate everything labor rates, paint and materials, how much we charge for parts and now every company has a supplement hotline which makes getting your supplements paid for a huge hassle. I'm just plain sick of it if I was selling tires and doing brake jobs I'd be making 100% on most of my parts and charging 15-20% more for labor and the best part is I would'nt have to deal with the b.s. from the insurance companies. I hate to say it but the only way there will be smaller shops in the future is if we band together and don't let them dicktate anything!

Kenny I know you do great work and hope you continued success, it's not an easy thing in this business to do. Are ya hiring?

[ProTouring442]

Can we keep the politics out of this thread please?

A sleezy company is a sleezy company regardless of the politics of owners/people running the company.

Thanks :thumbsup:

I suppose... though of course there is actually no separation between any part of so-called non-political life and political life in a democratic republic.

You say the company is "sleezy." Could I not also ask you to keep your morality out of the discussion? And of course, morality, when applied to a broad social endeavor such as this, then becomes political...

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[kennyd]

For years I've been the busiest shop around my area, and that's due to the work we put out, the last 3 years I have struggled to make a profit and I watch everything, paint, bondo, buy in bulk for better deals, and I hunt for cheaper parts. I just don't see the future in this business anymore its a revolving cycle you get a car in get it done cash the check pay your bills and theres nothing left. The whole problem is we should not have to listen to the insurance companies, they dicktate everything labor rates, paint and materials, how much we charge for parts and now every company has a supplement hotline which makes getting your supplements paid for a huge hassle. I'm just plain sick of it if I was selling tires and doing brake jobs I'd be making 100% on most of my parts and charging 15-20% more for labor and the best part is I would'nt have to deal with the b.s. from the insurance companies. I hate to say it but the only way there will be smaller shops in the future is if we band together and don't let them dicktate anything!

Kenny I know you do great work and hope you continued success, it's not an easy thing in this business to do. Are ya hiring?

i do agree that they do dicktate the buisness , but we have let them do it . it's our fault that shop owners dont go at it as a group !

and yes i am looking for another bodyman for this shop , and another shop to buy !

[Fluid Power]

This is the typical comment that a non-drp shop will make . i have a bodyshop that is a drp for allstate , hartford ,usaa , progressive ,shelter ,statefarm, phh , and wheels . WE ( complete shop ) are I-car gold . we do 25-30 car a week , every car i would send my wife and kid anywhere in at anytime ! so to say they " monkey up " the car is not correct !
plus we just fixed a car that farmers wrote the estimate on and guess what , it had the same " type " of aftermarket parts on it . NON DRP

i hate to see small shops go out of business BUT thats not a insurance companys fault .

For the record, I do not own a body shop.

My point was just that don't complain about crappy work if you have a crappy policy (that you didn't pay much for) and didn't understand the contract you were signing. I agree 100% with what you said.

Darren

[BBC69Camaro]

I suppose... though of course there is actually no separation between any part of so-called non-political life and political life in a democratic republic.

You say the company is "sleezy." Could I not also ask you to keep your morality out of the discussion? And of course, morality, when applied to a broad social endeavor such as this, then becomes political...

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

I tried to be as polite as I could. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

You honestly think there are no "conservative" companies that screw people over? Or just conservatives in general that have little ethics or morals?

I know a lot of people from both sides of the political spectrum. Some are good moral ethical people and there are others than aren't. Political ideology has little to do with being a ethical or moral person.


Reminds me of a quotes:
"Everyone thinks their own turds don't stink".
"Pot meet kettle".
"When someone sits to the extreme right, everyone else is to the left".

[ProTouring442]

I tried to be as polite as I could. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

You honestly think there are no "conservative" companies that screw people over? Or just conservatives in general that have little ethics or morals?

I know a lot of people from both sides of the political spectrum. Some are good moral ethical people and there are others than aren't. Political ideology has little to do with being a ethical or moral person.


Reminds me of a quotes:
"Everyone thinks their own turds don't stink".
"Pot meet kettle".
"When someone sits to the extreme right, everyone else is to the left".

OK, I'll try this again...

You cannot separate politics, morality, and actions, they are always intertwined. Any person or company that goes to an extreme in any one of those (politics, actions, morality) will automatically go awry in the others.

Perhaps a quick look at a few celebrities will make my point clearer. Here are a few people I admire, and would love to meet or to have met.

Jimmy Stewart, Harrison Ford, Ann Margret, Jay Leno.

In each case, though they are of different political viewpoints, each is a well balanced person, and though each has his faults, each lives a life that balances politics, actions, and morality, that is, none is radical in any of those three.

It seems to me that perhaps you are the one with the chip. Frankly, I could care less if the owners of Progressive are liberal or conservative, libertarian or socialist, and I would be equally as condemnatory if they gave money to the US Communist party as I would if they gave money to the John Birch Society, or if they were members of a white supremest group or participated in a wife swapping society.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[kennyd]

For the record, I do not own a body shop.

My point was just that don't complain about crappy work if you have a crappy policy (that you didn't pay much for) and didn't understand the contract you were signing. I agree 100% with what you said.

Darren

i have statefarm because they will not use afmarket sheetmetal no matter how old the car is .

[wmhjr]

i have statefarm because they will not use afmarket sheetmetal no matter how old the car is .

That is NOT a true statement.

[kennyd]

That is NOT a true statement.

let me retract that . no afmarket sheetmetal if factory is ,available on standard repairs . ( not a 69 camaro) .
thats on my DRP contract with statefarm !

[tellyv]

State Farm was sued a while back thats why they use oem or used parts only, it was a pretty big deal if I remember.

[Van B]

As for profit entities, all insurance company's are established to take our money and pay out as little as possible, whether their insuring your car, your house, your health whatever. The claims reps are taught a single catch all answer to all questions--NO. They all suck, the most important elements in the process is to have an agent that you trust to help you navigate the minefield and take it to a body shop that knows the game. My wife was in an accident last year and I brought it to a friend's body shop and he informed me that my coverage required new OEM parts only. I had no idea but my agent did and it cost no more than my previous policy. On the other hand, I had Safety Insurance on my company car and I was side swiped by a lady driving a Crown Vic who ran a red light while playing with her dog. It was an MB SUV and it was obvious to me it was totaled. The adjuster estimated $9k of damage and I laughed and bet him dinner it was at least $30k. Under Safety's rules the vehicle had to be fixed because of this ridiculous estimate and after 6 supplements, over 200 individual parts and 3 months, the total cost was--$42k for a vehicle that had a book value of 56k. They offered me $29 a day to rent a car and for anyone who has rented a car in the Boston area that gets you a Geo or a Corolla previously rented by smokers and not cleaned since the 1st Bush presidency and that's if you get a deal. The law here is comparable vehicle and I told the claims agent they could either pay for the car or pay for the car and my legal fees when I sued them, so they made an "exception" just for me which cost them another $6000. I was such a pain in the ass that someone at Safety finally figure out that the adjuster really f***ed up and he lost his job for which I feel no remorse because he was an idiot and besides he never bought me dinner. Thankfully the vehicle was leased which means when MB went to sell it with the carfax report they must have lost their ass. Insurance companies are blood sucking parasites and you need to fight to the death to get what you paid for. Other than that, I have no strong feelings about insurance companies one way or the other!

So in most states the car should have been on a salvage title after the crash. I was involved in a lawsuit with an Audi that was much the same. Retail customer years later sued the bank that originally leased it, the wholesale auction that sold it and the dealer he bought it from. He ended up with over twice what he paid for the car and kept driving the car. His claim was that we (the auction) should have known because we picked the car up from a body shop on the bank's behalf. The only one he did not sue was the insurance company who repaired the car with several supplements. They had paid $42k to repair a car that brought $25k wholesale.

[BBC69Camaro]

OK, I'll try this again...

Any person or company that goes to an extreme in any one of those (politics, actions, morality) will automatically go awry in the others.

Bill

We both agree in this aspect. The extremes tend to be very unhealthy in a lot of ways as the extreme left gives rise to Communism and the extreme right Fascism.

As far as politics and morality being intertwined we will have to agree to disagree.

It just seemed to me in your original post you went out of your way to point out the CEO being liberal and what he donated to, which really doesn't have anything to do with how the company is run. Simply he could just have been on the complete other side of the spectrum a card carrying member of the Nazi party, or completely in the middle, it really has no bearing on the whether or not the actions on the company were right or wrong. And I'll leave it at that.

[Hdesign]

We both agree in this aspect. The extremes tend to be very unhealthy in a lot of ways as the extreme left gives rise to Communism and the extreme right Fascism.


This may be semantics but... They are the extreme left(communists) and right (fascists), of progressive (aka liberal) ideology. Both favor large, oppressive government structures. Anarchy is the opposite end of the spectrum of both of them where there is no govt. That's my understanding anyway.

[BBC69Camaro]

This may be semantics but... They are the extreme left(communists) and right (fascists), of progressive (aka liberal) ideology. Both favor large, oppressive government structures. Anarchy is the opposite end of the spectrum of both of them where there is no govt. That's my understanding anyway.

I agree the far extremes resemble each other more than not and can be very hard to tell apart.

One thing thou, I don't think fascism would come from a progressive or liberal ideology (Fascism is very much against progressive movements). But would be borne more of very strong nationalist tendencies along with the tying of state power to corporations.

[ProTouring442]

I agree the far extremes resemble each other more than not and can be very hard to tell apart.

One thing thou, I don't think fascism would come from a progressive or liberal ideology (Fascism is very much against progressive movements). But would be borne more of very strong nationalist tendencies along with the tying of state power to corporations.

Yes, Fascism is an odd bird. It's real ideology is Nationalism (Everything for the state, nothing outside the state), and though it is a single party Totalitarian entity, from there it can be a wildly varying beast. Fascism in general was expansionist in its foreign policy, and its outlook towards the state was Collectivist/Corporatist.

Fascist Spain was really more Authoritarian than Fascist. It was conservative in nature, though it never really seemed quite certain as to what it was trying to conserve.

Italy's economy was more inline with what we would call a "Free Market" economy, though banks were state financed, and many government work programs were utilized to counter the effects of the Great Depression. Italian Fascism was probably the truest form of Fascism, being neither religious or racist in its official views.

Nazism was the oddest of all, as is combined a pseudo-Fascist state with that of a religious one, based on Hitler's and Himmler's dedication to the Cult of the Aryan. Nazi Germany had a nominally free market economy, but there was heavy government regulation coupled with control through outright bullying. Though it claimed to be Nationalist, it was really more Racist, dedicating itself to the development of the Aryan "Superman" through selective breeding to bring back the lost powers of the Aryan god-man.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[lnirenberg]

We both agree in this aspect. The extremes tend to be very unhealthy in a lot of ways as the extreme left gives rise to Communism and the extreme right Fascism.

As far as politics and morality being intertwined we will have to agree to disagree.

It just seemed to me in your original post you went out of your way to point out the CEO being liberal and what he donated to, which really doesn't have anything to do with how the company is run. Simply he could just have been on the complete other side of the spectrum a card carrying member of the Nazi party, or completely in the middle, it really has no bearing on the whether or not the actions on the company were right or wrong. And I'll leave it at that.

I agree with this, although the thread has gotten a bit far afield. Large corporation under a capitalist system, especially publicly traded ones, whether led by people espousing principles typically labeled "Left" or typically labeled "Right" share one common trait and that is they exist to make a profit. If doing so requires good customer service than good customer service you shall get. The insurance companies share a common trait on the road to profit, the less they provide their customers the more money they make. The game is as close to fixed as any can get because none of them feel compelled to differentiate themselves and it may be even worse in my state where the basic rates for auto insurance are set by the Insurance commission so they basically all charge the same. As consumers we certainly have the right to make buying decisions based upon the political views of corporate leaders but in regards to auto insurance your really only picking who you want to get f***ed by.

[dhutton]

I'm a little lost! Could you please tell me what this has to do with Telly's rant about closing up shop and how steering and DRPs have affected his business? I'm I missing something?????

X2. What does this have to do with anything on lateral-g?

Don

[Vegas69]

Can I go one place in life and not be drug into a political debate. :D Where is our favorite bouncer Jody?

[tellyv]

Well I think this thread at least got my point across, screw companies like progressive and stick up for your right to take your car where you want to! I would agree time to close this one up.

[skatinjay27]

Can I go one place in life and not be drug into a political debate. :D Where is our favorite bouncer Jody?

the bat signals been sent out he'll be here soon! :lol: