Mass Flo EFI.....good alternative?

[g356gear]

Anyone know much about these systems?
www.massfloefi.com

System includes:

•Four barrel single plane Edelbrock Victor Jr intake manifold.

•Our own custom 1000 CFM 4 bbl throttle body. It features all aluminum and stainless steel construction, sealed ball bearings on the throttle shafts, and progressive linkage. Comes complete with idle control motor and throttle position sensor. This is absolutely the finest 4 bbl throttle body on the market!

•Jumbo fuel rails and mounts. Rails have 9/16" diameter bores providing excellent flow and dampening characteristics.

•Our custom compact high flow patented mass air meter. The air meter is concealed within the air cleaner of your choice to maintain the vintage look! Systems are also available with our patented Pro-M mass air meters for draw through or blow through application.

•Complete production quality wiring harness. This stand alone high quality harness allows easy installation of our EFI system into any vehicle without connecting to your existing harness. For ease of installation each harness connector is individually labeled.

•Production mass air sequential electronic fuel injection computer.

•Eight high quality fuel injectors, sized to your application. The injectors are sized to allow ample room for large increases in horsepower. These fuel injectors are held to much closer tolerance than typical production injectors.

•All needed sensors. Most of the sensors are mounted right on the injection system for a simple install. No crank sensor to complicate the process!

•High performance billet aluminum distributor complete with ignition module, rotor and cap. Our entire ignition system is contained within the distributor and ECM. Just install the distributor and plug it into the harness. No spark boxes needed. However, after market capacitive discharge ignition systems, boost retard systems, nitrous control systems, rev limiters and shift lights can all easily be added.

•High performance coil featuring faster rise time and increased spark duration for increased performance. This coil comes with heat sink and mounting bracket.

•Throttle body base gasket, throttle cable bracket, assorted hardware and fittings and detailed instructions for a simple turn key installation.
All of these components are absolutely the best quality available. Unlike the competition, we will never sell you something that is "good enough" just because it costs less to produce.

[supremeefi]

1st question, how much cam do you have. Also, can't be true sequential if there is no cam sensor. You figure it out.

Check out my video where I talk about the very same system. Go to Featured Video on the bottom right.

http://www.accel-dfi.com/

[Pdale]

If you have a duel sync distributor you can have sequential though right?

[supremeefi]

If you have a duel sync distributor you can have sequential though right?

Yes that's exactly what they're for. And they are very convenient, one distributor, 2 pick ups. But obviously the ECM needs to be able to run in sequential as well. Some are but aren't adjustable.

[71RS/SS396]

I have one on a truck project I'm doing, so far I like it, very responsive. I was told these are not that picky about cam selection due to it not using a map sensor, relies on maf and O2. It does seem to be very sensitive to fuel pressure though.

[1Bad68Cat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the system use mainly ford parts except for the mass air meter which is a modified 4th gen f-body. IIRC, the mass air ford stuff is sequential, but does require a chip if not stock. It will run, but it is not optimized. If you want laptop ability you can plug in a twEECr system to make adjustments on the fly.

[supremeefi]

I have one on a truck project I'm doing, so far I like it, very responsive. I was told these are not that picky about cam selection due to it not using a map sensor, relies on maf and O2. It does seem to be very sensitive to fuel pressure though.

Stick a big cam in it and let me know how it reacts. I have first hand knowledge that they don't like that at all.

[Blown353]

Also, can't be true sequential if there is no cam sensor.

While this doesn't apply to the Massflo system you can have full sequential injection without a cam sensor using only a reluctor wheel on the crank that has enough teeth to provide a high resolution crank signal to the ECU and the ECU has both the processing power and necessary software scheme to decode the crank signal. The ECU can watch the angular acceleration/deceleration of each tooth of the reluctor wheel during compression & firing and calculate/decode the firing order based on the individual tooth accel/decel and then run full sequential injection and also drive coil-per-plug without a cam sensor. I helped set up a Porsche 356 that's coil per plug and sequential injection with no cam sensor needed... and it works great. It's a Pantera 882 ECU by the way, I also have one sitting in the box waiting for my TT LS2 if I ever get it finished. My LS2 will still use a cam sensor although it isn't 100% needed with the 882; the cam sensor is still good for the ECU to do a firing order sanity check and "noise filtering" by comparing the cam signal to the decoded crank signal.

Back to Mass Flo, while I haven't used their specific setup I have messed with a couple of EEC-IV's using twEECer a while back in their native environments (5.0 mustangs.) While the EEC-IV and TFI distributor combo is getting a bit dated it can still run very well (both are readily available and easy to retrofit onto almost anything, probably why they chose it)-- but as was mentioned there are limitations when you get really "wild" with the engine combo. Mass Flo seems to really market to the "bolt on and go" crowd that wants EFI but really doesn't want to mess with it or learn the ins and outs.

My personal preference is for a more modern ECU and a crank reluctor wheel setup for its greater accuracy compared to a distributor trigger setup (no distributor gear backlash, no timing chain slack, etc to throw off injection & spark timing.) Lots more options to grow and change things in the future.

[supremeefi]

Yes on the TFI distributor the #1 tab on the reluctor wheel is offset, that's how the EEC-IV knows where #1 is. And yes if you have an ECU that can read that then you can go sequential. But I believe the MassFlo system comes with a standard Mallory distributor. I'm pretty sure it fires in batch, not sequential.

But don't lose sight of the fact that while sequential is good, changeable/programmable sequential is better, sometimes much better. Watch the O2 correction as you change injector timing. It will change noticeably no question.

Watch my video on the Accel DFI website. The Mustang I refer to had a 246/249 @ .050 hyd roller in a 427W. They sent the ECU back 3 times, got 4 or 5 different chips, they lost count. Ran like ****. Chris at MassFlo tried to help but nothing worked.
Put the Accel Thruster on it. I put a base tune in it and it fired right up and idled fine. Runs great, guy drives it almost every day.

Also have a buddy who put 226/230 @ .050 cam in his 5.O, didn't run well either. When you said they have their limitations that may be an understatement.

[71RS/SS396]

You sound like you work for Accel.

[supremeefi]

You sound like you work for Accel.

I'm an Accel dealer, hence the reference to my video on their website.;)

But there are other good systems out there, i.e. FAST XFI etc.

My point is the aftermarket mass flow systems are good for mild to moderate applications but beyond that they are severly lacking.

And unless I have some bad info the MassFlo/EEC-IV only allows 20 degrees of timing adjustment as well. I have a 350 Olds that has about 16 degrees of advance at idle and 42-44 under cruise with my Gen 7. Do the math, can't do that with their system. Nor can you compensate for temp on the advance side either, more when cold, less when hot. Can be a significant drawback.

[71RS/SS396]

I understand there are more capable systems for wild engine combinations, but I think this system is pretty nice for the average guy with a relatively mild engine. You don't have to take it to a dyno shop to get it dialed in like a lot of the other systems out there. I have tried a lot of other systems, I have one car with edelbrocks efi on it and I think it's a pos, I spent thousands on dyno time and it still doesn't run like I think it should. I also have a car that has a Dart billet LS and twin turbos being built by Kurt Urban and John Meany is doing the programming including traction control. So I realize the capability of what's out there, I just think a lot of these systems on the market are more than what most people really need and it can get really frustrating trying to make them run right unless you are a pro tuner. I think that is why you are seeing Fast and Mass-flo making these self tuning systems. There is a sizable market for them.

[supremeefi]

I wouldn't argue most of what you said, especially the fact that the Edelbrock EFI is a pos, it is.

But beyond that, an Accel Thruster for instance runs about $1600.00 on most websites, with a wideband. And yes there are some pretty average tuners out there. But the potential on a well tuned Thruster vs some of the other systems for about the same money is night and day. Plus all the other features a system like that has, i.e. multiple fan control, torque converter control, nitrous, datalog etc.

Remember too, all the adaptive learning stuff has potential drawbacks, the biggest of which is no floor or ceiling to the range of compensation. If you have a vacuum leak or exhaust leak it will detect a lean condition and continue to add fuel, no matter what. Not a good thing, can do damage.

But there is a market for this type of system no doubt, and don't forget to add the new Holley stuff to that mix. People just need to be aware of it's limitations.

[Efi69Cam]

I wouldn't argue most of what you said, especially the fact that the Edelbrock EFI is a pos, it is.

But beyond that, an Accel Thruster for instance runs about $1600.00 on most websites, with a wideband. And yes there are some pretty average tuners out there. But the potential on a well tuned Thruster vs some of the other systems for about the same money is night and day. Plus all the other features a system like that has, i.e. multiple fan control, torque converter control, nitrous, datalog etc.

Remember too, all the adaptive learning stuff has potential drawbacks, the biggest of which is no floor or ceiling to the range of compensation. If you have a vacuum leak or exhaust leak it will detect a lean condition and continue to add fuel, no matter what. Not a good thing, can do damage.

But there is a market for this type of system no doubt, and don't forget to add the new Holley stuff to that mix. People just need to be aware of it's limitations.



There is so much bad info floating around about the Accel stuff that you have your work cut out for you trying to change peoples opinion about it.

People don't know how to tune it then proceed to bad mouth it.

Any word on when the Gen 8 is due, and whether or not the Gen 8 ICM will be upgradeable to fuel control?

[supremeefi]

You're right. Years ago they had a rep who liked to travel and pad his expense account. He opened every Tom Dick and Harry as an "EMIC". But it's an industry problem as well. I've had lots of people complain to me about FAST, Holley, and others too. Just check out EFI 101 University, you'll see people stuck everywhere.

The Gen 8 should be out by year end. I bought my Gen 7 for my own ride 8 years ago after 6+ months of research. I talked to everybody. I installed it then a couple years later I got a chance to be a dealer. For driveability I'll put it against anything in it's price range and beyond, period. Unfortunately there's a bunch of guys (tuners) out there who don't have a clue, seems even more so on the Accel stuff. But those same guys are quick to take your money.

Now if you call there tech line somebody actually answers the phone. That as well other things have gotten much better.

Dollar for Dollar imo it's the best out there, hands down.

Mark

[GregWeld]

I've had Accel LONGER -- and have spent HUGE money on tuners - which would include towing to multiple states...

If anyone wants the pile -- it's laying in a box - along with TWO ECUS - TWO dual syncs and a gaggle of wires the size of which would choke a horse.

I put on a FAST EZ EFI on my multiport 8 stack 406 --- and have never been happier with EFI -- and that goes back almost 10 years!

Can it tune itself and do all and be all... hell no! Can it run a nice little 550 ft lb of tq 8 stacked 406... OH YEAH BUDDY! And it cost less than ONE DYNO trip. :woot:

[supremeefi]

I've had Accel LONGER -- and have spent HUGE money on tuners - which would include towing to multiple states...

If anyone wants the pile -- it's laying in a box - along with TWO ECUS - TWO dual syncs and a gaggle of wires the size of which would choke a horse.

I put on a FAST EZ EFI on my multiport 8 stack 406 --- and have never been happier with EFI -- and that goes back almost 10 years!

Can it tune itself and do all and be all... hell no! Can it run a nice little 550 ft lb of tq 8 stacked 406... OH YEAH BUDDY! And it cost less than ONE DYNO trip. :woot:

I'll take it, what do you want for it? Also, if I were you, and as a service to the other members, please let us know where you took it. That way everyone can avoid them at all costs.

That 8 stack in my video runs perfect just like the guy says. And that has a Crane 260/266 @ .050 solid roller in it, on a 106 in at 106, no issues. I still say it's the tuner. I'd like a copy of your last tune if you have it, just curious.

[Revved]

Never had my hands on one but I did talk to a client that owned one of the Classic Recreations cars with this on it and he said the car ran great.

I dealt with EEC IV MAF systems quite a bit back in the day and it is true that they do have "limitations" when dealing with more extreme engine combos. But like anything in this industry the term "bolt on" is a misnomer. The educated builder is going to learn the product he is installing and have the wherewithal to make adjustments for the outside of the box applications that are part of our industry. With the EEC IV MAF systems once you got any more into an engine than a set of motorsport heads, cobra intake and an E cam you were upgrading injectors and having the MAF remapped to match. The more air you stuffed in, the bigger the injectors, the bigger the MAF to match. As mentioned the 5.0's ran on a Hall effect (Dual sync) distributor to provide cam and crank signal for SEFI operation and they were a great running vehicle as long as you knew what you could do and what you had to adjust for.

Like many here I've dealt with A LOT of cars with high end programmable EFI systems from "professional" shops that ran like crap. Like many of you, I constantly get asked "Who's system is the best?" I've dealt with FAST stuff for the last several years and know them well so I use them... I've had bad experiences with other systems that ate my lunch. What it really comes down to is that if you are paying for a quality system and have a quality install it comes down to the fact that you also need a quality tuner to set it up for you. If you have a guy that is awsome at ACCEL systems- by all means go for it; Your tuner is a FAST baddass- Rock it. It's all about what you know and how you can make it run to meet your clients needs; and being there to service it as needed.

I am really excited about the "self-tuning" systems because I have a lot of clients who really don't need a fully programmable EFI system for their "daily driver"- and call me selfish that when I send a vehicle back home several thousand miles away after upgrading an EFI system I cherish the thought of not getting a phone call because this car I set up in 85* ambient all of a sudden is being driven during a 55* cold snap and hiccuped... once.:D But hey... that's part of living the life right?

[Pantera EFI]

Would the BEST way to sense engine Knock be from Crankshaft Acceleration Measurement ?

No "hidden" microphones that ALSO hear pistons, valve train, etc.

Trust that it CAN BE DONE, an OBD II Federal requirement !

When my ECU "feels" crankshaft vibration, it will retard the Spark Instant for all cylinders durning the next revolution of the crankshaft.

Lance

[GregWeld]

I am really excited about the "self-tuning" systems because I have a lot of clients who really don't need a fully programmable EFI system for their "daily driver"- and call me selfish that when I send a vehicle back home several thousand miles away after upgrading an EFI system I cherish the thought of not getting a phone call because this car I set up in 85* ambient all of a sudden is being driven during a 55* cold snap and hiccuped... once.:D But hey... that's part of living the life right?


This is exactly what - if I were a tuner/installer shop - I would be thinking about these self tuning systems. They should be embraced rather than feared by the professional shops. It's an easy install... and it works... therefore - you should have extremely low comebacks - and a high percentage of customer satisfaction... leading to recommendations of your shop for this type of upgrade.

Most of "us" don't need the full on systems. These are relatively inexpensive opening up a broader market to "more" people... and as stated above - since they're simple and work. They should have good results and happy customers.

Personally - when I'm happy with the work a shop does - I not only talk about them - but return for MORE WORK... :cheers: :woot: BUT --- when I'm unhappy --- I make sure I tell everyone I know.

[GregWeld]

I have to add that I have never had a failure of the Accel Gen 7 system... it works great. Actually - I think most all of these systems work great. The problems I've had is with the TUNERS... NOT the system. In the great Pacific NorthWET - we just don't have that many shops that are doing this kind of work... and it shows.

I wish I would have run into Brian Macey 5 or 6 years ago.... He seems to know his stuff. :cheers: