Its Time For The Builders To Come Together And Stop This Crap

[fesler]

With the economy so bad and times getting harder and harder for some its time that builders come together and stop the BS with these cars that are being produced.

I see all too often these cars that have a huge price tag on them and a build level of not even ¼ of what someone paid for it. We are fixing more and more half ass builds out there and its getting ridicules. Someone out there somewhere has to care that they are spending good money for crap.

It’s time for everyone out there buying cars to wake up and do some research on what you are going to buy or build. Whether you are going to buy a car or the parts to build the car stop going to the cheapest guy on the market because you don’t always get what you pay for.

The problem is everyone wants a deal and just because the economy is down does not mean the deal is good. Stop going to these guys that sell cars out of their house or that build them on the side out of their house for fun. Not all guys that do this are bad but with more and more cars coming up like the ones pictured here and this one is the worst I have seen yet it’s getting bad and bad fast.

I get calls and calls to go look at a car or pictures with can you look this car over and let me know what you think. Well no I can’t not anymore because there are more scam artist out there than ever before.

I had a very good customer of mine that was looking at buying this car. Look over the pics and let me know what you think. (NO WE HAD ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BUILD OR BUY) I got the pics too late to say anything.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/FeslerBuilt/BAD%20CAR%20PICS/SDC11391.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/FeslerBuilt/BAD%20CAR%20PICS/SDC11386.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/FeslerBuilt/BAD%20CAR%20PICS/SDC11384.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/FeslerBuilt/BAD%20CAR%20PICS/SDC11380.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/FeslerBuilt/BAD%20CAR%20PICS/SDC11380.jpg

Seems like a nice car, price is great around $35,000 no way you could build it for that. Drives nice, underside looks nice, paint is very nice, can’t seem to find any rust or bondo problems, interior is perfect, everything works.

So he bought the car thinking man what a great deal and great buy. He looked at hundreds of pictures of the car and yes this car was a full rebuild. Everything new on it.

Look at the pictures and see just how nice the car really is.

[fesler]

I have more coming just have to get the pictures loaded and will finish the story

[buickfunnycar.com]

oh boy...can't wait.:willy:

[SLO_Z28]

$35,000 is alot for a car. Short of being a special car thats a numbers resto I just dont see that car being worth that. Sure it might cost $50,000 to get it built that way, but that doesnt mean its worth more than $15-17,000.

[fletcherscustoms]

I want name names!! but I was in a shop that had two real Shelby GT 500s in for resto. Customer had bought both of the cars for over $50K and they both needed full resotration. I personally witnessed said shop repairing rust in the floors by simply applying fiberglass cloth and coating with resin. We are talking softball size holes. they were in the process of painting one of them with your run of the mill $150 a gallon clear coat. And the shop owner was quick to gloat on how he was getting over $150K each for the resto's. I see more and more of this every day. Where guys pay way to much without knowing what they are getting into. But then you have shops like me, who I think do very well respected work that sit on our hands most of the time cause guys want turn loose of the money cause I don't have a name attached to me. Then you see cars on ebay with high end parts on it that bring twice the amount of the of a better quality car but it just doesn't have the name attached to it also.

[fesler]

Now to the sad part of this story, this car looked really nice and drove really well but the scum bags of today have really figured out how to take advantage of everyone so OPEN your eyes and know what you are buying.

They put bondo over every part of rust but just thin enough that the bodo gauges had a rough time finding it. The complete underside of the car was coated and covered and looks completely factory. The work looked great and the average person would not be able to find this stuff.

There are people out there that will spend a ton of time thinking up ways that they can take advantage of someone buy cutting every corner of a build to make more money. Hours are hours when it comes to building a car and if you are going to be serious about this in any way it’s time to stand up and put these people out of business.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/FeslerBuilt/BAD%20CAR%20PICS/IMG_0471.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/FeslerBuilt/BAD%20CAR%20PICS/IMG_0470.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/FeslerBuilt/BAD%20CAR%20PICS/IMG_0473.jpg

Yes the car broke into two parts all the way accorss

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/FeslerBuilt/BAD%20CAR%20PICS/IMG_0469.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/FeslerBuilt/BAD%20CAR%20PICS/IMG_0468.jpg

Here are some simple rules for you guys to follow when it comes to looking into buying a car or parts for your car.

• If it sounds too good to be true it is, no one is going to give you something unless they are going to lose it to an EX.

• Check their backgrounds find out what they have done before and if people liked it

• If they just sell on EBay stay away everything we have seen from there is crap and every good deal from there has cost more than expected because of the scams

• Pull up the carpet look under ask for pics of that build area

• Ask for pics before paint if they don’t have them they did not paint it

• Ask for engine out shots if they painted it with the engine in you probably don’t want the car

• Ask for interior build shots see what and how they did it, I will post up some shots of what we see all the time

• Pull up carpet in trunk climb in and check all the rust spots

• Look for all panel replacement work

• Look over suspension make sure it looks like they have at least gone over it all and fixed any issues, if it looks old it’s not a rebuild it’s not a restoration it’s a quick fix to make a buck and a fast one at that.

• Check body alignment make sure the cars fits, check door gaps if they hit its not aligned right and that will cost you labor and paint to fix, check hood/trunk gabs make sure they are correct or it will cost you

• Check windows make sure they all work and no water comes in the car in rain, check seals make sure they are all new not old and rotten

• Check engine fluids all of them, remove the oil cap and check the oil feel it to see how old it is, check water, trans, PS and so on. Smell them to make sure they are not burnt

• But best of all use your judgment when buying a car, if the guy seems weird, strange or won’t answer certain questions clearly don’t buy it move on. You don’t need the headaches of a used car problem

• Now some of you can fix all this yourself so if you are up to it good luck.

I am just so sick of the idiots out there that think they can build a car and do it as good as the larger shops for half the money. There is a reason that guys go to big name shops because they in most cases stand behind what they do and they have a name that over time will let them know the car will still be worth something.

A great question to ask any shop that you are at is what cars go for that you build if people sell them. If they tell you that a certain car that you know cost let’s just say $500,000 and they sell it for $200,000 that is not a good investment. If the cars that sell get close to the build cost then you have a good builder if not then something is not right. Now in their defense not all cars are the right cars to build and some people just have more money they style so that can play a roll.

This same deal runs in the parts business and wheel business you usually get what you pay for so a $300 wheel is nothing like a $900 three piece wheel no ifs ands or butts about it they are nothing alike same with parts for the cars. If you think a guy can make parts for your car at half the price than anyone else on the market they are not good parts unless he is doing it from his garage and making no money. Not many people want to do that either. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR and if it seems to good to be true than watch out because you are going to have problems.

Maybe if we (builders and buyers) get together and work together and not against one another we can make this whole experience 1000 times better. Sorry for the long rant but enough is enough and everyone needs to wake up and stop buying crap.

[fesler]

Yes this is what happens when you half ass something

[fletcherscustoms]

Ty's car was a perfect example. WE easily removed over 3 gallons of mud off the car. How hard is it to pull a dent instead of applying filler by the gallon. Rust repair is not covering the backside of the hole with tinfoil then mudding over it. It happens more and more everyday. Folks trying to make a quick buck. I'm guilty of getting screwed!! my challenger I bought looked great, jsut like it had been sitting in a barn for 30 years. But got it to the shop and blasted it and found tons of recent mud work and then had a $8,000 shell that then had to have $4000 of sheetmetal put on it.

[2Bad4Ya]

I hate to see someone go screwed :(

1. People get the itch and just gotta scratch it, we are an instant gratification society.

2. There is always someone out there looking to seperate you from your $$$$.

3. People are always looking for a DEAL, and if it sounds to good to be true it almost always is!

There is no way I would drop over 10k on a car without seeing it in person, regardless of who I let inspect it for me. I would not put that deciding factor on someone elses shoulders, becuase unless your there with them looking atthe car thats what your doing. If you cant muster getting out to see it yourself do you really care what condition it is in, your just tossing money around. /shrug.

[buickfunnycar.com]

OMFG...someone should be shot for doing that abortion to a car.
I cannot possibly imagine how that car would hold up in an accident...:willy:

[tones2SS]

WOW!!! That's bad. I hate seeing stuff like this!!!:mad:
Thanks for posting Chris.:thumbsup:

[2Bad4Ya]

k I have calmed down some after looking atthe pix... I think my disbelief overtook me there for a bit. :_paranoid

Is there any legal recourse the buyer has? Misrepresentation of the goods, etc... Some major damages in the amount of ubsurd $$$ needs to be handed out, then maybe the fear of being held accountable may make some people less willing to pull stuff like that.

[Race Wilson]

k I have calmed down some after looking atthe pix... I think my disbelief overtook me there for a bit. :_paranoid

Is there any legal recourse the buyer has? Misrepresentation of the goods, etc... Some major damages in the amount of ubsurd $$$ needs to be handed out, then maybe the fear of being held accountable may make some people less willing to pull stuff like that.

X2 Nothing gets a persons attention like reaching into their wallet.

[OLDFLM]

I want name names!! but I was in a shop that had two real Shelby GT 500s in for resto. Customer had bought both of the cars for over $50K and they both needed full resotration. I personally witnessed said shop repairing rust in the floors by simply applying fiberglass cloth and coating with resin. We are talking softball size holes. they were in the process of painting one of them with your run of the mill $150 a gallon clear coat. And the shop owner was quick to gloat on how he was getting over $150K each for the resto's. I see more and more of this every day. Where guys pay way to much without knowing what they are getting into. But then you have shops like me, who I think do very well respected work that sit on our hands most of the time cause guys want turn loose of the money cause I don't have a name attached to me. Then you see cars on ebay with high end parts on it that bring twice the amount of the of a better quality car but it just doesn't have the name attached to it also.

And that was a "professional" restoration shop! UFB

[RECOVERY ROOM]

Holy crap,When did it break in half...Trailer ride? hoist?

[kennyd]

ebay sucks ! i made the mistake of buying a 66 chevelle drop top off ebay the owner said rust free . wrong it should have said free rust ! the car was so rusty it was covered with roof flashing then bediner coated inside to hide the roof flashing . i called the owner he said fu#$you and hung up the phone . i then called my lawyer he said because i had it shipped across state lines i was out of luck ,unless i wanted to hire a ohio lawyer then i was going to only get part of the money back . this just tought me a great lesson DONT TRUST ANYONE !

i only used the roof bows ,2in of the top of the windshied frame , and the metal around the decklid ! when the car showed up at my shop if i sat in the seat the door would not open .

ps ,
because i did not pay with paypal i had no money recourse the owner only would take a chasiers check.

[Vegas69]

A crook is a crook. Nothings going to change it. Educating the public is the only way and Chris has some excellent advice.

[soundqdoug]

Agree 110% with Chris F. Good points! Money changes people though, sometimes common sense is lost when money is involved...ok, well alot of times it is...

[Stuart Adams]

Money spent has NOTHING do with quality or correctness. You can spend the same amount on crap as something nice.

[Steve1968LS2]

This happens at Best of Show all the time..

Guy comes in.. want's a quote.. let's say it's a full tilt stip, fix and paint.. they quote $20k (just a number I picked)..

He comes back saying XYZ down the street will do it for $8k..

Well I'm sure they will.. but you will get $8k worth. Hell, on a NICE paint job you can spend $4k and up on materials. On a second get they just painted the clear alone was well over a grand.

But people buy on price and then gripe about the quality instead of buying on VALUE.

The shop has gotten quite a few re-dos and aborted projects that were gettting hacked by some other low-bidder shop.

cheap, good, fast.. pick two.. lol

People also forget that that a high-end "show finish" cut and buff can take 40+ hours.. But they expect that show finish even with thier $8k paint job.

[DOOM]

Same thing that happend to Andy (MARINE 1) .This is what $80.000 got him and the guy is still in buisness!!!!! Andy still has no car and lots of lawyer bills. The guy basicaly told him to go F@&K HIMSELF!!!!!! Just robbed the man of $80.000. This isn't half the pictures. I went with Andy last year and saw this beauty in person I wanted to puke!!! You should of heard this j@#koff's line's of bulls@#t. You would have thought he was Chip Foose...:mad:

[Steve1968LS2]

Same thing that happend to Andy (MARINE 1) .This is what $80.000 got him and the guy is still in buisness!!!!! Andy still has no car and lots of lawyer bills. The guy basicaly told him to go F@&K HIMSELF!!!!!! Just robbed the man of $80.000. This isn't half the pictures. I went with Andy last year and saw this beauty in person I wanted to puke!!! You should of heard this j@#koff's line's of bulls@#t. You would have thought he was Chip Foose...:mad:

You see.. I feel REALLY bad for someone that spends the $$$ for good work and get's crap than I do the guy that cheaps out and gets cheap work.

Getting robbed of $80k is a raw deal for sure.

[1984 camaro]

I had a so called builder for chatsworth ca. that done a mini tub and a custom engine bay. The engine bay was on the cover of hot rod, Yes it looked good but there was about 5 gallons of mud to shape the engine bay which at sema show was starting to crack, The list goes on The rear axle and rear rails were a total sh*t job the shocks were angled up over the axle and when the car traveled down the shocks would bind on the housing in fact just from trailering the camaro the shock adjusters were worn away, The top and bottom bolts were mount 90 degrees from each other and when the traveled the shock rods would bend, He also messed up the axle seals. Now the engine bay some of the welds were so weak I pulled out one panel by hand. He clearanced for the wipers but they hit and would not work. The firewall had holes into the interior so his fix was to fill them with foam spray but that still had some leaks, In fact I washed the car and more water was in the car than on the floor. the best part was the hood would not close since he made a custom radiator cover and it was a little to high and hit the hood. This list goes on and on.
This was a $50,000 bill for this work so big money does not always get a good job. I needed to post this so you fellow car guys stay far far awayfrom this builder.
I have the car back and cut the floors out and the engine bay. It is sucky feeling walking by the scrap bin and looking at my $50,000 and knowing its about $30.00 of scrap iron.

Randy

[phillym5]

Thats SOOOO crazy... lol.
We too have a very high end build in the shop right now. The body came primed and "done"... but we had to cut into it to do some of the spoiler fab work. The car looked real clean. But there was about 1/2 inch of mud on the corner of the rear quarter. lol... it was junk. We had to order a new section... cut out the "finished" section... and start there. Pretty crazy because this dude paid good dough to a reputable shop. But now we know what kind of work that shop does....... Good for us, i guess.;)

How did that Mustang split?

[DB Z28]

I guess you got Bent over on that one

[Stuart Adams]

Our own buddy here is having a car fixed because of these same issues. Karma will be cool.

[Vegas69]

Money spent has NOTHING do with quality or correctness. You can spend the same amount on crap as something nice.

I bet you're sleeping like a baby right now. :unibrow:

[70TWO NOVA]

I used to work for a guy (not building cars) who would do things like this and ask an arm and a leg for his crappy work. What goes around comes around as they say

[elitecustombody]

there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a small shop building cars,some of the small shop projects can blow away the big shop's finished product,it takes some research and checking out their work in person. Most big shops have big overhead and in the end the customer pays for it,

There will always be crooks and butchers and naive fools with more money than brains, if they have no common sense,they should at least get a proffesional to check the car they are looking to buy.

That Mustang surely wasn't checked ,because putting it on the lift would provide more than enough evidence to stay away from it, because it would turn in horse shoe as soon as the lift or jack touch the rockers or floors of that rust bucket.

I'm simply defending small shops that do quality work,because I actually own a small shop and my customers get alot more than they actually paid for.

Alot of times I find myself fixing someone's half-ass work, and it makes me sick to see some of hack work.

Recent example,a year old Nissan GTR with small ding on fender and quarter panel was repaired and the whole side was painted including both bumpers,not one single piece of trim was removed, not even rear nameplate or the tag brackets ,which are held by 1 Phillip's head screw, there was so much dirt and fisheyes in the paint ,you'd get a better finish in the middle of desert sand storm, the tire dressing that was slung on the wheelwell edges wasn't even wiped off,let alone scuffed, I'm sure most of you get the picture. I've done alot of spot repair on brand new still in plastic cars for a local dealership, they also deal with a big franchise shop ,that had their SUV for over 6 months repairing side damage, in process of repair the vehicle caught on fire from idiots welding, that SUV still ended up at my shop for spot repairs for the damge that the shop caused, and till this day the dealership still takes their cars to that shop

Another example ,last fall I got a call from a guy ,that one of my Supra customers gave my number to, he was looking to buy a built Supra,being a Supra fanatic/collector/builder, I offered to build one for him to his specs,or if he gives me few days I could help him finding one ,but the guy had the patience of a 3 year old, needless to say,1 day fast forward ,he calls me to ask if he can bring his new Supra to check why it doesn't start, I get it in the air to check the stater,the power wire is hanging,lol, the whole underside is covered in fresh oil, crappy paint job ,even the battery got painted halfway,runs,trash,orangepeel, with poor attempt to sand and buff,leaving sanded and not buffed areas, poor fitting body panels,one big mess under the hood, speaker grille on door panels are glued on with some poop glue, Wal-Mart carpet pieces was just thrown in to cover the floor, radio does not work,right window does not go up, trunk floor has so much dirt,rust and gunk as some junk yard truck, radiator has rusty mud instead of coolant.

In less than a month I had to replace all A/C lines,because of crappy install of overflow tank causing the tank to rub through the lines and making a hole, replaced A/C compressor,dryer,expansion valve and pressure switch prior to that, because it locked up,replaced idler pulley ,replaced headlights because they were fogged up and cracking,

Here is the kicker, the guy went by himself to buy this car,paid $35.000 cash and didn't even bother to pop the hood, he even admitted that to me. So I think this kind of fools deserve to be screwed, I would gladly go and check out a car for someone at no charge and I offered it to him.So people like that should blame themselves first and the butchers second.



I've also seen photos of well known shop on here with not so great welds,but I will not point fingers or mention names

[Steve1968LS2]

I don't think anyone has said not to use small shops.. hell, most of the good shops I know ARE small..

I think the point is to not just shop based on price and really reasearch before doing business with any shop (big or small).

BOS has 5 guys.. JCG has 3-4 and there aren't even that many guys at the Ring Brothers..

[Jr]

I had a so called builder for chatsworth ca. that done a mini tub and a custom engine bay. The engine bay was on the cover of hot rod, Yes it looked good but there was about 5 gallons of mud to shape the engine bay which at sema show was starting to crack, The list goes on The rear axle and rear rails were a total sh*t job the shocks were angled up over the axle and when the car traveled down the shocks would bind on the housing in fact just from trailering the camaro the shock adjusters were worn away, The top and bottom bolts were mount 90 degrees from each other and when the traveled the shock rods would bend, He also messed up the axle seals. Now the engine bay some of the welds were so weak I pulled out one panel by hand. He clearanced for the wipers but they hit and would not work. The firewall had holes into the interior so his fix was to fill them with foam spray but that still had some leaks, In fact I washed the car and more water was in the car than on the floor. the best part was the hood would not close since he made a custom radiator cover and it was a little to high and hit the hood. This list goes on and on.
This was a $50,000 bill for this work so big money does not always get a good job. I needed to post this so you fellow car guys stay far far awayfrom this builder.
I have the car back and cut the floors out and the engine bay. It is sucky feeling walking by the scrap bin and looking at my $50,000 and knowing its about $30.00 of scrap iron.

Randy

:wow:

[skatinjay27]

I had a so called builder for chatsworth ca. that done a mini tub and a custom engine bay. The engine bay was on the cover of hot rod, Yes it looked good but there was about 5 gallons of mud to shape the engine bay which at sema show was starting to crack, The list goes on The rear axle and rear rails were a total sh*t job the shocks were angled up over the axle and when the car traveled down the shocks would bind on the housing in fact just from trailering the camaro the shock adjusters were worn away, The top and bottom bolts were mount 90 degrees from each other and when the traveled the shock rods would bend, He also messed up the axle seals. Now the engine bay some of the welds were so weak I pulled out one panel by hand. He clearanced for the wipers but they hit and would not work. The firewall had holes into the interior so his fix was to fill them with foam spray but that still had some leaks, In fact I washed the car and more water was in the car than on the floor. the best part was the hood would not close since he made a custom radiator cover and it was a little to high and hit the hood. This list goes on and on.
This was a $50,000 bill for this work so big money does not always get a good job. I needed to post this so you fellow car guys stay far far awayfrom this builder.
I have the car back and cut the floors out and the engine bay. It is sucky feeling walking by the scrap bin and looking at my $50,000 and knowing its about $30.00 of scrap iron.

Randy
wow, that sucks...
?? http://www.bentcustomandperformance.com/gallery_84camaro.html ??

[SLO_Z28]

wow, that sucks...
?? http://www.bentcustomandperformance.com/gallery_84camaro.html ??

I saw that car at SEMA a few years ago and I didnt see any bondo cracks. Could be the same one though. One beast of an engine. I remember a video interview of the owner and he joked that he had 15 cars and he had to borrow his girlfriends car to get there.

[skatinjay27]

I saw that car at SEMA a few years ago and I didnt see any bondo cracks. Could be the same one though. One beast of an engine. I remember a video interview of the owner and he joked that he had 15 cars and he had to borrow his girlfriends car to get there.it is the same car, randy(1984camaro) is the owner of that car and beast of an engine is right.

[1984 camaro]

I saw that car at SEMA a few years ago and I didnt see any bondo cracks. Could be the same one though. One beast of an engine. I remember a video interview of the owner and he joked that he had 15 cars and he had to borrow his girlfriends car to get there.

The cracks were very fine line cracks wich were on the firewall up were the cowl meets it

[elitecustombody]

I don't think anyone has said not to use small shops.. hell, most of the good shops I know ARE small..

I think the point is to not just shop based on price and really reasearch before doing business with any shop (big or small).

BOS has 5 guys.. JCG has 3-4 and there aren't even that many guys at the Ring Brothers..

I think Chris emphasized in post # 6, that small shops can't put out high quality work ,at least that's what I got

[kttrucks]

I completely agree that this customer ( the one that bought the '67 'Vert) was sold something that never should have been on the road, let alone passed off as a nice car.... but part of the responsibility belongs to the buyer doesnt it? Granted, the damage and bad repair was probably smoothed over very well, and it was probably hard to tell from photos that the car was a hack-job, but buying a classic (40 year old) car from photographs alone is probably not a great idea... Small shops, big shops, the size of the shop has nothing to do with it... it's the builders integrity and the professionalism of the shop that make a good repair or restoration. There are alot of sheisters out there... there always have been... the phrase "buyer beware" (Caveat Emptor) is centuries old.... and still holds true today.

I've been a "small shop" and know guys that have "small shops" that turn out great work. I think it has more to do with personal integrity on the part of the builder, and more importantly the seller, as well as an informed or uninformed buyer.

Just my opinion.

KT.

[d touring]

I don't think anyone has said not to use small shops.. hell, most of the good shops I know ARE small..

I think the point is to not just shop based on price and really reasearch before doing business with any shop (big or small).

BOS has 5 guys.. JCG has 3-4 and there aren't even that many guys at the Ring Brothers..

Thanks Steve
For pointing that out, I have a small shop as well an it just got smaller because of the econ.

We strive to do top notch work an have a open door to all that want to see our work an cars we build. you can call me an come that day.six seven eight 873six five seven 8

I have had lots of people say why dont you post pick of your work up to see an just never thought we needed it,word of mouth has always keep me busy.

I have had customers that have stop work on there car because of money / car has bare metal on it, then it set's for months they come back after an want to get back on it to find the rust an want to blame us for that an after i stored there car for free for all those months.
(We will not store cars any more) you work an pay or take it home.

We have fixed our share of messed up work from other shops. Had a guy bring a camaro in for some brake work put the car on the lift an we thought the rear end an mini tub was going to fall out of the car it was glued in with panel bond an a couple tack welds. an the list goes on.

The guy that sold that mustang to some body should face a firing squad.
Thanks for sharing
An i have gone an look at lots of cars for customer/friends for free to make sure they did not get the shaft.:cheers:

[d touring]

I can not count on both hands an feet how many times this has happened. LOL!!:willy:

This happens at Best of Show all the time..

Guy comes in.. want's a quote.. let's say it's a full tilt stip, fix and paint.. they quote $20k (just a number I picked)..

He comes back saying XYZ down the street will do it for $8k..

Well I'm sure they will.. but you will get $8k worth. Hell, on a NICE paint job you can spend $4k and up on materials. On a second get they just painted the clear alone was well over a grand.

But people buy on price and then gripe about the quality instead of buying on VALUE.

The shop has gotten quite a few re-dos and aborted projects that were gettting hacked by some other low-bidder shop.

cheap, good, fast.. pick two.. lol

People also forget that that a high-end "show finish" cut and buff can take 40+ hours.. But they expect that show finish even with thier $8k paint job.

Thanks

[Stuart Adams]

These type of events are in every aspect of life. Not just car resto's. Every type of business from doctors to plummers fix other stuff all the time. It's never going to change. Research your purchases and get qualified help to help you. Even then there is never a guarantee. Buyer beware.

[ccracin]

These type of events are in every aspect of life. Not just car resto's. Every type of business from doctors to plummers fix other stuff all the time. It's never going to change. Research your purchases and get qualified help to help you. Even then there is never a guarantee. Buyer beware.

Very well put Stuart!

[rwhite692]

These type of events are in every aspect of life. Not just car resto's. Every type of business from doctors to plummers fix other stuff all the time. It's never going to change. Research your purchases and get qualified help to help you. Even then there is never a guarantee. Buyer beware.

Exactly...in our business (semiconductor design and mfg) we were recently burned by a piece of design content that came along with another company that we bought...the problem was contained within a library of design files for the chip which was done by others (was subcontracted, probably to the lowest bidder)...The design was not well executed and full of bugs which cost our company a huge amount of time and money to fix, pissed off customers, etc.

There will always be people out there who are going to cut corners in order to take the business away from the other more capable companies based on price.

Caveat Emptor, indeed.

[BRIAN]

Everybody has an idea of what quality is. It is hard to critique a build unless you know exactly went down between owner and shop in regards to the build and money spent. Yeah, everybody is going to scream quality shouldn't be dependent on money but it is or at least it should be. Quality takes time and hours which translates into money.

In regards to bondo use, when you are applying it you always need more to get the car level and when you are stripping a car you always say they used too much. With the cost of repairs the amount used should go down. There was a famous $1mil plus car damaged that had a 1" think bondo chunk missing. I would say the quality there is questionable but if I found the same on a quick $1500 job?? what are you going to say as not everybody has deep pockets or the desire to have that quality.

The internet is full of so called Pro's showing their work on sites that is just beyond backyard bad and there are 20 -100 replies saying how great the work looks just because the shop is the site favorite. It is on here and everywhere else. One has to sit back and see who is making the comments and determine if they are on the same page as you in regards to quality. Do they actually have finished cars? Do you see their cars at shows doing well? Problem is guys take this info and think it is the correct way to do repairs.

There are plenty of very quite small shops delivering serious quality. Don't shop for cars or shops on the Internet. Go to shows or cruise nights and spot some cars that you feel are quality and ask where they were done. You will wind up with what YOU want.

[Vegas69]

Brian, you have some good points. To often people are quick to give positive feedback based on a photo. We all know you can make a turd look good in the right lighting. You also have your know it alls that don't even have a car or experience with that part or process. I like to pick and choose the people I trust and rely on them for advice. I've got to the point now where I call people out if I feel it's the wrong advice. These forums are really encyclopedias for future car nuts to find on google. We're all guilty of putting out some bad advice here and there but we need to try and keep our flappers shut if it's hear say.

[bentfab]

I had a so called builder for chatsworth ca. that done a mini tub and a custom engine bay. The engine bay was on the cover of hot rod, Yes it looked good but there was about 5 gallons of mud to shape the engine bay which at sema show was starting to crack, The list goes on The rear axle and rear rails were a total sh*t job the shocks were angled up over the axle and when the car traveled down the shocks would bind on the housing in fact just from trailering the camaro the shock adjusters were worn away, The top and bottom bolts were mount 90 degrees from each other and when the traveled the shock rods would bend, He also messed up the axle seals. Now the engine bay some of the welds were so weak I pulled out one panel by hand. He clearanced for the wipers but they hit and would not work. The firewall had holes into the interior so his fix was to fill them with foam spray but that still had some leaks, In fact I washed the car and more water was in the car than on the floor. the best part was the hood would not close since he made a custom radiator cover and it was a little to high and hit the hood. This list goes on and on.
This was a $50,000 bill for this work so big money does not always get a good job. I needed to post this so you fellow car guys stay far far awayfrom this builder.
I have the car back and cut the floors out and the engine bay. It is sucky feeling walking by the scrap bin and looking at my $50,000 and knowing its about $30.00 of scrap iron.

Randy

Well Well Randy,

Nice of you to open your mouth with out even calling me? In my opinion I would call the shop or customer first before going public.

1st: Why don't you man up and instead of calling it a shop in Chatsworth call it Bent Custom and Performance.

2nd: This car was a headache from day one. I was sub-contracted and was always put in a rush !!! (There was never a clear picture from day one and I always asked what are the plans for this car? ) Considering the backhalf was done a year before the front half and that wasn't on my watch.

3rd: Do not point fingers either ( I have never touched spray foam in my life) That was the paint shop who ground down the metal to much because they don't know how or what the fu$@ they are doing!!! I wasn't the one who did any final assembly and God knows the monkeys that put it together had any clue what they were doing."there was about 5 gallons of mud to shape the engine bay" If I'm not mistaken before the cars engine bay was started I think there was the same amount of bondo in it when YOU did the job. So don't go calling the kettle black.

4th: "when car traveled down the shocks would bind on the housing in fact just from trailering the camaro the shock adjusters were worn away, The top and bottom bolts were mount 90 degrees from each other and when the traveled the shock rods would bend, He also messed up the axle seals." There you go again. As for the shock adjusters The paint shop fu## those up because they never assembled the car properly or asked for any help !! Plus they wanted the car to sit lower than the way it was designed. Mater of fact since they screwed those up I even bought new shock nuts (Funny there still sitting in my shop).

5th: "He clearance for the wipers but they hit and would not work." There were a few conversations about this? If we can make them work great if not then at least get them on and we will finish it up after SEMA. And if any of you guys on hear know windshield wiper systems aren't easy to figure out when there custom. Especially when the contractor tells you to put the Hydroboost and master at a 90 degree under the dash (Which in my opinion was stupid,but I was just doing my job). Also put all the electronics,new Vintage air, all the coil packs, and a manually operated throttle cable. O' don't let me forget to remind everyone. This was a 4 week job that should have been a 6 to 12 month job.

6th: "The firewall had holes into the interior so his fix was to fill them with foam spray but that still had some leaks" Are you refurring to "his fix" as me ? Because his is not me. I don't have that kind of mentality. Sorry but there you go pointing fingers in the wrong direction again.

7th: "the best part was the hood would not close since he made a custom radiator cover and it was a little to high and hit the hood." Well if you look at the origanal metal pic in Hot Rod and the final paint pic they are different. May...be.. the painter cut and fudged it then slapped on a ton of bondo painted it and called it a day. Pointing fingers again

8th: I could stand here and defend my self all day. But what good is that going to do? I'm just stating the facts. I have pics to prove it all day.

9th: It's a shame that Randy had to post this up when he dam well knows how all this came about. [COLOR="red"][COLOR="Black"][B]Some one else was calling the shots not me !!! The given amount of time that I had to do all this would make most of you go insane or tell the person to go some where else. There were alot of unfinished aspects of this car that never got finalized or were covered up by people that are'nt professinal or understand what the were doing.

There are a few of you guys on here that know me and have met me in person. I even have done work for you or are currently doing work for you. I think I can vogue for all of you that I'm not the person or builder that Randy is pointing fingers at or accusing me of wrong doing.



Mark

[bentfab]

I guess you got Bent over on that one

Not cool.
:wow:

That's what I said
wow, that sucks...
?? http://www.bentcustomandperformance.com/gallery_84camaro.html ??

So tell me? Do those peaces and wheal tubs look like crap? Not to many people take pics of raw metal and post.


I think Chris emphasized in post # 6, that small shops can't put out high quality work ,at least that's what I got

Everyone starts out small. Some stay that way others have talented workers.

These type of events are in every aspect of life. Not just car resto's. Every type of business from doctors to plummers fix other stuff all the time. It's never going to change. Research your purchases and get qualified help to help you. Even then there is never a guarantee. Buyer beware.

Perfect !!

Everybody has an idea of what quality is. It is hard to critique a build unless you know exactly went down between owner and shop in regards to the build and money spent. Yeah, everybody is going to scream quality shouldn't be dependent on money but it is or at least it should be. Quality takes time and hours which translates into money.

Too true !!


In regards to bondo use, when you are applying it you always need more to get the car level and when you are stripping a car you always say they used too much. With the cost of repairs the amount used should go down. There was a famous $1mil plus car damaged that had a 1" think bondo chunk missing. I would say the quality there is questionable but if I found the same on a quick $1500 job?? what are you going to say as not everybody has deep pockets or the desire to have that quality.

That's the first car I thought of.


There are plenty of very quite small shops delivering serious quality. Don't shop for cars or shops on the Internet. Go to shows or cruise nights and spot some cars that you feel are quality and ask where they were done. You will wind up with what YOU want.

My doors are always open.

[ironworks]

Everybody has an idea of what quality is. It is hard to critique a build unless you know exactly went down between owner and shop in regards to the build and money spent. Yeah, everybody is going to scream quality shouldn't be dependent on money but it is or at least it should be. Quality takes time and hours which translates into money.

In regards to bondo use, when you are applying it you always need more to get the car level and when you are stripping a car you always say they used too much. With the cost of repairs the amount used should go down. There was a famous $1mil plus car damaged that had a 1" think bondo chunk missing. I would say the quality there is questionable but if I found the same on a quick $1500 job?? what are you going to say as not everybody has deep pockets or the desire to have that quality.

The internet is full of so called Pro's showing their work on sites that is just beyond backyard bad and there are 20 -100 replies saying how great the work looks just because the shop is the site favorite. It is on here and everywhere else. One has to sit back and see who is making the comments and determine if they are on the same page as you in regards to quality. Do they actually have finished cars? Do you see their cars at shows doing well? Problem is guys take this info and think it is the correct way to do repairs.

There are plenty of very quite small shops delivering serious quality. Don't shop for cars or shops on the Internet. Go to shows or cruise nights and spot some cars that you feel are quality and ask where they were done. You will wind up with what YOU want.

Some good ideas in this post, I just wanted to add to what you saying.

Just because it is at the show and looking good does not mean it does not have a 10 gallons of mud. I think you need to see a guys metal work. You need to go TO THE SHOP, Don't talk to some one on the phone and see what they post. You can tell alot through this but it does not show the whole story. I love the shops that post pics of some crazy metal mod and it goes from being tacked up and barely cobbled together. To complete bodywork with primer and looks like it is prepped for paint. If I had a shop chop the top on my car and I went in and never saw the car in bare metal, I would know something is wrong. There are more shops out there that sculpt bondo then fill small highs and lows. Every car will use filler, just not something more then a 1/16th to maybe an 1/8th. MAYBE.....

Just cuz a guy finishes alot of cars does not make them talented. It just means he builds alot of junk. Some guys only do one aspect of the build. So guys just paint cars, Some guys just assemble cars, Most guys do light fab work and paint the car and reassemble. So shops are just general contractors and haul the car all over to have other shops do all the work, then they reassemble the car and take all the credit. That happens to us all the time. We are a fab shop, We can turn key a car, But 95% of our work is pushed in and pushed out to just to certain segments of a build, Chassis, and body fab.

The Last issue I see is this website, Lat-g in General. There are some very nice well put together cars on this site. People have paid alot of money to put some of these cars together. The MR Average Joe gets on here and sees things Way above average results and has no clue how much time or Talent it takes to build some of the things posted on this site. You cannot get a top notch paint job for 8 grand. You can not get a full custom tube chassis for 18k. You cannot have some one build you a crazy top notch, bad ass, Top Quality Camaro for less then 125. Sure you can put a car togther for less and it can be COOL. But Cool and Quality are totally Different. And to have both Cost even more money. These hand fabbed top notch quality cars cost a lot for a Reason.

I have gone an looked a few hack jobs that have been on this site that the customer wanted me to fix. I asked them how much they paid and told them I thought they got what they paid for. They were not happy, because the work did not look like what they see on here, but It also did not cost 1/2 of the price.

You get what you pay for. Unless you do not do your homework.

[ironworks]

Brian, you have some good points. To often people are quick to give positive feedback based on a photo. We all know you can make a turd look good in the right lighting. You also have your know it alls that don't even have a car or experience with that part or process. I like to pick and choose the people I trust and rely on them for advice. I've got to the point now where I call people out if I feel it's the wrong advice. These forums are really encyclopedias for future car nuts to find on google. We're all guilty of putting out some bad advice here and there but we need to try and keep our flappers shut if it's hear say.

Todd, I think you are a good example of a guy who learned his lesson on your engine and went to a guy for your 2nd engine that was not the lowest bidder I'm sure. And really at the end of the day, it is alot of the same parts, Meaning a big block is a Big block, yeah yeah I know, not quite, but bare with me. But the way this new one runs and the operates is miles different from the old one, let alone the assemble and parts selection and just overall knowledge.

I use the example of My moms cooking, You don't know your mom is a bad cook when your a little kid, until you eat somewhere else and have something to compare it to. Somethings you just take for granted until you find out you did not have all the info. OR you just never learn.

[chr2002ca]

I use the example of My moms cooking, You don't know your mom is a bad cook when your a little kid...

Even when I was a little kid I knew my mom's cooking sucked! I didn't have to go elsewhere to figure that out. When you need a spoon to eat your eggs, something ain't right. :lol:

That Mustang breaking in half is just rottenous to the core. From my own experience and what I've seen, I don't think it matters how much you spend or how big or little the shop is. You just have to research that particular builder and see their work in person and talk with that builder's customers. That's about the best you can do. Or, try to do it yourself and live with your own work.

[DRJDVM's '69]

I think Stuart summed up the way I feel..... this kind of stuff happens in EVERY business out there....and it always will.......

Happens in my job all the time....... we see a pet, provide an estimate for whats needed...... the owner declines, and takes it somewhere else based solely on $$.....I've even had people get on the cell phone right in the room and start calling around for a better price :).... then they try and negotiate with me. Not going to happen... I've also had to "fix" other vets crappy work.... I've seen some real disasters. I've seen pet die after taking it somewhere cheaper...pets that I KNOW I could have saved......

Sometimes clients will pressure you with time or ask you to cut corners or keep the cost down dramatically. As a business owner, sometimes you have to just say NO..... the end result will be a reflection of your work no matter what. Others looking at the car wont know that the owner wanted you do do $10k of work with a $2k budget in record time. Sometimes you have to walk away and say "no thanks". I try to work some aspects of the cost, but I draw the line and say....."I wont do that....if thats what you want, you need to take the pet and the record and find another vet". The ones that I've cut corners on ALWAYS end up being the worst situations..... things dont go well and the owners gets pissed.....not my fault, but guess who get left holding the bag? The owners arent going to go and tell their friends that the reason the dog died was because they were so frickin cheap and would let me do what was really needed.... they are going to tell their friends that it died at our hospital under my care.......

I'm also the first to admit that I got suckered into going with a lower bid for some work on my Cuda. I contacted alot of shops and got prices all over the place. I found a guy that talked a good game and was working on another members car...his price was good (better than most of the guys I contacted), so I went with him.....HUGE MISTAKE....his work was terrible and I ended up paying 2x as much just to undo his work and start from scratch on several aspects of the car. I regret that decision more than you will ever know....especially since I did exactly what I rip some of my client for.... I focused more on the final $$ rather than the value of the $$. For that I beat myself up over and over.... I learned my lesson and wont make that mistake again. Thats not say I wont try to keep my budget under control, but I'm not going to let the $$ be the biggest factor again. He did **** work but ultimately I have no one to blame but myself.

But high $$ doesnt always mean high value.... thats where the consumer has to do their homework.

I would also like to comment on BentFab...... I just met Mark at his shop a couple of weeks ago and was more than impressed on the work he had going on in the shop. 2 of the 3 project he had were in bare metal and everything was pristine......very nice CRAFTSMENSHIP.... I was very impressed and would have no doubts about letting him work on my cars. I have no doubt that any shortcuts made on the project mentioned above, have alot more "backstory" than meets the eye... I highly doubt that they were ther result of Marks decisions.

The issue also comes into play when there is more than one shop doing the work. One shop may do fantastic metal work and then the paint shop does a crappy job...so the first shop gets dragged into the "that car is a POS"

[bentfab]

I think Stuart summed up the way I feel..... this kind of stuff happens in EVERY business out there....and it always will.......

Happens in my job all the time....... we see a pet, provide an estimate for whats needed...... the owner declines, and takes it somewhere else based solely on $$.....I've even had people get on the cell phone right in the room and start calling around for a better price :).... then they try and negotiate with me. Not going to happen... I've also had to "fix" other vets crappy work.... I've seen some real disasters. I've seen pet die after taking it somewhere cheaper...pets that I KNOW I could have saved......

Sometimes clients will pressure you with time or ask you to cut corners or keep the cost down dramatically. As a business owner, sometimes you have to just say NO..... the end result will be a reflection of your work no matter what. Others looking at the car wont know that the owner wanted you do do $10k of work with a $2k budget in record time. Sometimes you have to walk away and say "no thanks". I try to work some aspects of the cost, but I draw the line and say....."I wont do that....if thats what you want, you need to take the pet and the record and find another vet". The ones that I've cut corners on ALWAYS end up being the worst situations..... things dont go well and the owners gets pissed.....not my fault, but guess who get left holding the bag? The owners arent going to go and tell their friends that the reason the dog died was because they were so frickin cheap and would let me do what was really needed.... they are going to tell their friends that it died at our hospital under my care.......

I'm also the first to admit that I got suckered into going with a lower bid for some work on my Cuda. I contacted alot of shops and got prices all over the place. I found a guy that talked a good game and was working on another members car...his price was good (better than most of the guys I contacted), so I went with him.....HUGE MISTAKE....his work was terrible and I ended up paying 2x as much just to undo his work and start from scratch on several aspects of the car. I regret that decision more than you will ever know....especially since I did exactly what I rip some of my client for.... I focused more on the final $$ rather than the value of the $$. For that I beat myself up over and over.... I learned my lesson and wont make that mistake again. Thats not say I wont try to keep my budget under control, but I'm not going to let the $$ be the biggest factor again. He did **** work but ultimately I have no one to blame but myself.

But high $$ doesnt always mean high value.... thats where the consumer has to do their homework.

I would also like to comment on BentFab...... I just met Mark at his shop a couple of weeks ago and was more than impressed on the work he had going on in the shop. 2 of the 3 project he had were in bare metal and everything was pristine......very nice CRAFTSMENSHIP.... I was very impressed and would have no doubts about letting him work on my cars. I have no doubt that any shortcuts made on the project mentioned above, have alot more "backstory" than meets the eye... I highly doubt that they were ther result of Marks decisions.

The issue also comes into play when there is more than one shop doing the work. One shop may do fantastic metal work and then the paint shop does a crappy job...so the first shop gets dragged into the "that car is a POS"


Ned,

Thank you very much !!! That means alot me.

[Bow Tie 67]

That Mustang is Disgusting !!!

I wish these hacks mothers would have done our hobby a favor and sent their sons to baking school.

[1984 camaro]

Well Well Randy,

Nice of you to open your mouth with out even calling me? In my opinion I would call the shop or customer first before going public.

1st: Why don't you man up and instead of calling it a shop in Chatsworth call it Bent Custom and Performance.

2nd: This car was a headache from day one. I was sub-contracted and was always put in a rush !!! (There was never a clear picture from day one and I always asked what are the plans for this car? ) Considering the backhalf was done a year before the front half and that wasn't on my watch.

3rd: Do not point fingers either ( I have never touched spray foam in my life) That was the paint shop who ground down the metal to much because they don't know how or what the fu$@ they are doing!!! I wasn't the one who did any final assembly and God knows the monkeys that put it together had any clue what they were doing."there was about 5 gallons of mud to shape the engine bay" If I'm not mistaken before the cars engine bay was started I think there was the same amount of bondo in it when YOU did the job. So don't go calling the kettle black.

4th: "when car traveled down the shocks would bind on the housing in fact just from trailering the camaro the shock adjusters were worn away, The top and bottom bolts were mount 90 degrees from each other and when the traveled the shock rods would bend, He also messed up the axle seals." There you go again. As for the shock adjusters The paint shop fu## those up because they never assembled the car properly or asked for any help !! Plus they wanted the car to sit lower than the way it was designed. Mater of fact since they screwed those up I even bought new shock nuts (Funny there still sitting in my shop).

5th: "He clearance for the wipers but they hit and would not work." There were a few conversations about this? If we can make them work great if not then at least get them on and we will finish it up after SEMA. And if any of you guys on hear know windshield wiper systems aren't easy to figure out when there custom. Especially when the contractor tells you to put the Hydroboost and master at a 90 degree under the dash (Which in my opinion was stupid,but I was just doing my job). Also put all the electronics,new Vintage air, all the coil packs, and a manually operated throttle cable. O' don't let me forget to remind everyone. This was a 4 week job that should have been a 6 to 12 month job.

6th: "The firewall had holes into the interior so his fix was to fill them with foam spray but that still had some leaks" Are you refurring to "his fix" as me ? Because his is not me. I don't have that kind of mentality. Sorry but there you go pointing fingers in the wrong direction again.

7th: "the best part was the hood would not close since he made a custom radiator cover and it was a little to high and hit the hood." Well if you look at the origanal metal pic in Hot Rod and the final paint pic they are different. May...be.. the painter cut and fudged it then slapped on a ton of bondo painted it and called it a day. Pointing fingers again

8th: I could stand here and defend my self all day. But what good is that going to do? I'm just stating the facts. I have pics to prove it all day.

9th: It's a shame that Randy had to post this up when he dam well knows how all this came about. [COLOR="red"][COLOR="Black"][B]Some one else was calling the shots not me !!! The given amount of time that I had to do all this would make most of you go insane or tell the person to go some where else. There were alot of unfinished aspects of this car that never got finalized or were covered up by people that are'nt professinal or understand what the were doing.

There are a few of you guys on here that know me and have met me in person. I even have done work for you or are currently doing work for you. I think I can vogue for all of you that I'm not the person or builder that Randy is pointing fingers at or accusing me of wrong doing.



Mark
Well mark you justed opened your mouth I did not point the finger at you. You justed pointed it at yourself. Yes I had bondo in my engine bay but i paid you lots of cash to build me one without bondo that's the difference my cost was 50.00 and your cost was 35,000.00. I just refered to chatsworth you filled in the blank. Mark the shocks are mounted up over the axle They hit and thats that now knowing you had this problem early on this should have addressed before the paint shop, The paint shop did not build the mounts. The radiator pan hits on two spots were there was no bondo. Just to let you know I have more pics to.

[Vegas69]

Todd, I think you are a good example of a guy who learned his lesson on your engine and went to a guy for your 2nd engine that was not the lowest bidder I'm sure. And really at the end of the day, it is alot of the same parts, Meaning a big block is a Big block, yeah yeah I know, not quite, but bare with me. But the way this new one runs and the operates is miles different from the old one, let alone the assemble and parts selection and just overall knowledge.

I use the example of My moms cooking, You don't know your mom is a bad cook when your a little kid, until you eat somewhere else and have something to compare it to. Somethings you just take for granted until you find out you did not have all the info. OR you just never learn.

I'd definitely agree Rodger. To my defense, at that point I had no intention of racing the car. (Back in 2006ish)He definitely was ultra competitive price wise but had a good reputation when I plunked down the money. That's about the time the place went to crap. You are absolutely correct, the difference between my current builder Jason Pettis and the old yahoo is in two different galaxies. The performance...:D :D Jason is definitely not even close to the cheapest, but he's very reasonable in my book. The dude is just a genious when it comes to engines and machine work. His knowledge is priceless. If I wanted a chassis built, I'd call you. For aftermarket suspension, I'll call DSE. For restoration and parts, I'll call my boy Frank. Wheels is Forgeline. Interior and stereo is Findlay Customs. Transmissions it Classic Chevy . None are the cheapest but I know exactly what I'm paying for, Quality.

[ironworks]

I'd definitely agree Rodger. To my defense, at that point I had no intention of racing the car. (Back in 2006ish)He definitely was ultra competitive price wise but had a good reputation when I plunked down the money. That's about the time the place went to crap. You are absolutely correct, the difference between my current builder Jason Pettis and the old yahoo is in two different galaxies. The performance...:D :D Jason is definitely not even close to the cheapest, but he's very reasonable in my book. The dude is just a genious when it comes to engines and machine work. His knowledge is priceless. If I wanted a chassis built, I'd call you. For aftermarket suspension, I'll call DSE. For restoration and parts, I'll call my boy Frank. Wheels is Forgeline. Interior and stereo is Findlay Customs. Transmissions it Classic Chevy . None are the cheapest but I know exactly what I'm paying for, Quality.

Thanks Todd. I think it should be a requirement to build a small project for people before they bit off those big ass all encompassing high end projects. Alot of people have no clue exactly how deep they are getting in, or what they really think they want. You can tell a guy something is going to cost a million dollars but until it get over half way do they start to understand that it may cost a million bucks. Just cause somebody thinks it should cost less does not mean it does.

[96z28ss]

I guess I was lucky, when I saw Karma the first time it came back to Tony, I knew then I wasn't sending my car down there.
I was lucky also to have met Tim Bruning and get my project going over at his place. He is a true craftsman and loves cars, and is resonably priced.

[bentfab]

[QUOTE=1984 camaro;282491]Well mark you justed opened your mouth I did not point the finger at you. You justed pointed it at yourself. Yes I had bondo in my engine bay but i paid you lots of cash to build me one without bondo that's the difference my cost was 50.00 and your cost was 35,000.00. I just refered to chatsworth you filled in the blank. Mark the shocks are mounted up over the axle They hit and thats that now knowing you had this problem early on this should have addressed before the paint shop, The paint shop did not build the mounts. The radiator pan hits on two spots were there was no bondo.

[QUOTE=1984 camaro;282491]Well mark you justed opened your mouth I did not point the finger at you.

Then where was your finger pointing ?

Mark the shocks are mounted up over the axle They hit and thats that now knowing you had this problem early on this should have addressed before the paint shop,

Look at the pics before the paint shop got it. Dose'nt look like it was hitting to me? Also I would be hard pressed to say that any of this work looks like sh@@ to me.

Let' not forget I back halfed this car and minni tubbed it when it was painted. You ask anyone how easy that is. You can post all the pics you want and say anything till your heart is content, but I was never the general contractor for this build. The final product and how it was finished had nothing to do with me or how it was exacuted. I just did what I could do in the amount of time that was given especialy with the daily changes during the build.

Mark

[1984 camaro]

The shop in chatsworth said the painter messed up the engine bay I will say the painter took a turd and polished to something good, He and the general contractor called me and said the metal work was poor but the damage was done so the painter done his best to cover it up. To the sub contractor keep it up I have very many juicy pictures and I plan on enjoying posting them up for the next few weeks. You were told by the general to call me but you did not just to show you don't care about your work. The general also warned you that pics will be posted so you that shop in chatsworth had your chance. To your response about manning up and calling you that's not my job I called the general which is what I am supposed to do. The general on this project was great to work with and I would again and same goes to the other sub the painter

[1984 camaro]

[QUOTE=1984 camaro;282491]Well mark you justed opened your mouth I did not point the finger at you. You justed pointed it at yourself. Yes I had bondo in my engine bay but i paid you lots of cash to build me one without bondo that's the difference my cost was 50.00 and your cost was 35,000.00. I just refered to chatsworth you filled in the blank. Mark the shocks are mounted up over the axle They hit and thats that now knowing you had this problem early on this should have addressed before the paint shop, The paint shop did not build the mounts. The radiator pan hits on two spots were there was no bondo.

[QUOTE=1984 camaro;282491]Well mark you justed opened your mouth I did not point the finger at you.

Then where was your finger pointing ?

Mark the shocks are mounted up over the axle They hit and thats that now knowing you had this problem early on this should have addressed before the paint shop,

Look at the pics before the paint shop got it. Dose'nt look like it was hitting to me? Also I would be hard pressed to say that any of this work looks like sh@@ to me.

Let' not forget I back halfed this car and minni tubbed it when it was painted. You ask anyone how easy that is. You can post all the pics you want and say anything till your heart is content, but I was never the general contractor for this build. The final product and how it was finished had nothing to do with me or how it was exacuted. I just did what I could do in the amount of time that was given especialy with the daily changes during the build.

Mark

Look at the first picture you can see the shock angels forward, the top bolt of the shock is over the Axel. the spring hits hard against the Axel. the housing has a grove worn in it. On the second picture you can see the adjuster under the tape it is almost against the axle. As the Axel move up the space gets tighter an tighter. Take a look at the lower control arm which swings at a arch as the Axel moves up it also moves back.Thank you for the pictures

[nvr2fst]

Cris... WOW thats just #@*! up. Im assuming since you posted this thread your being asked to fix this? We all know it costs twice as much to fix somebody else's mistake in any business. Man thats just a sad site to see. Lot's of posts on bad builder reps out there but the blame also has to be in big part of the customer for not doing his research, buying something or having something done with no build docs. If the customer is not knowledgeable to know what he's buying he should find help from someone that does. Personally I would never buy any car on line unless I physically can view it or have a shop I know do it for me.

[Vegas69]

Bingo, if you can't lay your eyes on it personally or you're not capable, find somebody that can inspcet the car. Please.....:yes: Let me throw this out for you guys. Some of these sellers are just as niave as the buyers. They are to damn ingorant to figure out what they have. Sometimes I wish I had a little of that. haha

[BritishGreen68]

[QUOTE=bentfab;282527][QUOTE=1984 camaro;282491]Well mark you justed opened your mouth I did not point the finger at you. You justed pointed it at yourself. Yes I had bondo in my engine bay but i paid you lots of cash to build me one without bondo that's the difference my cost was 50.00 and your cost was 35,000.00. I just refered to chatsworth you filled in the blank. Mark the shocks are mounted up over the axle They hit and thats that now knowing you had this problem early on this should have addressed before the paint shop, The paint shop did not build the mounts. The radiator pan hits on two spots were there was no bondo.



Look at the first picture you can see the shock angels forward, the top bolt of the shock is over the Axel. the spring hits hard against the Axel. the housing has a grove worn in it. On the second picture you can see the adjuster under the tape it is almost against the axle. As the Axel move up the space gets tighter an tighter. Take a look at the lower control arm which swings at a arch as the Axel moves up it also moves back.Thank you for the pictures

The fab work looks really nice to me, especially the frame and tubs.. Issues like shocks hitting the axle and windshield wiper linkage are small stuff IMO, that at the shop Im at, the customer would just bring it back and we fix that stuff. There are a million small issues that come up with custom work, its how the shop handles fixing those issues that are important. Especially if someone is rushed to make a show and doesn't have time to realize something rubs at a certain ride height, just have him move the mounts and fix your parts.. its not an airplane that's going to crash, its a custom car, shops deserve a little room for mistakes, that are within reason.. no offense to you Im just defending what looks like some good work to me from a shop standpoint, with some reasonable flaws from being rushed...?

[BritishGreen68]

Bingo, if you can't lay your eyes on it personally or you're not capable, find somebody that can inspcet the car. Please.....:yes: Let me throw this out for you guys. Some of these sellers are just as niave as the buyers. They are to damn ingorant to figure out what they have. Sometimes I wish I had a little of that. haha
my uncle bought a 69 camaro convert off ebay, that was described as "very rusty, but savable" and when it showed up on the car hauler, it was broken in half just like that mustang. There were about 5 people there when it showed up and it was the rustiest camaro any of us had ever seen, the frame rails in the back were rusted off and the leaf springs had nothing to bolt to and were just sticking up in the trunk, it was impressively rusty. The guy we got it from said I told you it was rusty! but relisted it and sold it again and let us off the hook...

[GregWeld]

I have to say -- I've been to BENT FAB -- And I'd send my stuff there in half a nano second. I'm thinking there's a whole lot more to this unhappy ending than meets the eye.... 'cause the work I saw was top notch. And I do know the difference.

I bought 3 or 4 cars on Ebay -- every one of them was CRAP when they arrived. Thankfully I can toss the keys to a dealer buddy and he just makes them go away. I bought "from on line photos" a 70 Chevelle from a Canadian company with their own TV show - it was such crap when it arrived that I got my attorney involved and had to threaten them with INTERNATIONAL FRAUD... they took the Chevelle back and refunded my money. I've learned my lesson - no on line BS for me -- iGo - iSee - iTouch - iDrive... (hope Apple doesn't come after me.. LOL)

Just went down to pick up a little 32 Ford Roadster a buddy found on Ebay - I told him - DO NOT BUY OFF EBAY -- If the seller is a good guy - tell him we're on our way - with trailer - and cash - if it's as nice as it looks - you'll buy. We brought it home. A steal and a GREAT car. It has some very minor issues that are all fixed and total cost of the repairs was $300...

[buickfunnycar.com]

The fab work looks really nice to me, especially the frame and tubs...

Better than nice,it looks most impressive indeed...:yes:

[Vegas69]

Nobody's going to win that battle online. Clearly the whole story isn't going to be available to any of us. You guys should really pick up the phone or cuss at eachother via email until you have nothing left to say. This is only going to tarnish your reputation to the casual on looker. I'd personally ask for the backspace button.

[BritishGreen68]

Nobody's going to win that battle online. Clearly the whole story isn't going to be available to any of us. You guys should really pick up the phone or cuss at eachother via email until you have nothing left to say. This is only going to tarnish your reputation to the casual on looker. I'd personally ask for the backspace button.
gives me something to read in between welding!:P

[tyoneal]

To All:

This is a really good thread, and I think many can learn from it.

Are their any venders, that restore, paint, sell parts etc. that advertise on Lateral-g or Pro-Touring.com that are jerks, liars, or cheaters?

Having a list of Good Qualified list of people to do business with would be a great way for people to help not get screwed, before they get butt deep into a major headache.

Is there ANYONE who you would not trust to do a large project, and why? I know more than likely, if someone was a crook, they would probably be thrown off the websites.

If they are allowed to advertise on these site, is that a good indicator, the people are probably on the up and up, whether it be parts or services?

I would appreciate some feedback from people about this.

<In fact I will start a New Thread>

If nothing else, who have you had do work, or supply parts, and had good luck with?

Thanks,

Ty

[DOOM]

I learned one thing from this thread, DO YOUR RESEARCH !!! .I think its that simple..

[J2SpeedandCustom]

Well said Rodger! This should be a mandatory message all members must read before posting on this site.


The Last issue I see is this website, Lat-g in General. There are some very nice well put together cars on this site. People have paid alot of money to put some of these cars together. The MR Average Joe gets on here and sees things Way above average results and has no clue how much time or Talent it takes to build some of the things posted on this site. You cannot get a top notch paint job for 8 grand. You can not get a full custom tube chassis for 18k. You cannot have some one build you a crazy top notch, bad ass, Top Quality Camaro for less then 125. Sure you can put a car togther for less and it can be COOL. But Cool and Quality are totally Different. And to have both Cost even more money. These hand fabbed top notch quality cars cost a lot for a Reason.

[DOOM]

To All:

This is a really good thread, and I think many can learn from it.

Are their any venders, that restore, paint, sell parts etc. that advertise on Lateral-g or Pro-Touring.com that are jerks, liars, or cheaters?

Having a list of Good Qualified list of people to do business with would be a great way for people to help not get screwed, before they get butt deep into a major headache.

Is there ANYONE who you would not trust to do a large project, and why? I know more than likely, if someone was a crook, they would probably be thrown off the websites.

If they are allowed to advertise on these site, is that a good indicator, the people are probably on the up and up, whether it be parts or services?

I would appreciate some feedback from people about this.

<In fact I will start a New Thread>

If nothing else, who have you had do work, or supply parts, and had good luck with?

Thanks,

Ty

Ty.. Scott has a good list of vendors here I do everything I can to call them first. I judge a vendor on how they handle a situation when something goes wrong. All to many times people use this forum to call someone out only to find out they never tried to resolve it with the vendor in the first place!Look at what happen with Mark Bent .I can't imagine that Mark would do something like this given his reputation on this site. So what happens. The owner calls Mark out. Did he try to resolve this with Mark face to face.?Because if I spent $50,000.00 on anything Im going to pay someone a visit. I would be willing to bet this did'nt happen.. Because if it did we would'nt be reading about it on this forum ,Mark would of done right by this member no question. I have NEVER been screwed by a REPUTABLE vendor. Do your home work!! :soapbox:Now back to Chris sorry

[elitecustombody]

To All:

This is a really good thread, and I think many can learn from it.

Are their any venders, that restore, paint, sell parts etc. that advertise on Lateral-g or Pro-Touring.com that are jerks, liars, or cheaters?

Having a list of Good Qualified list of people to do business with would be a great way for people to help not get screwed, before they get butt deep into a major headache.

Is there ANYONE who you would not trust to do a large project, and why? I know more than likely, if someone was a crook, they would probably be thrown off the websites.

If they are allowed to advertise on these site, is that a good indicator, the people are probably on the up and up, whether it be parts or services?

I would appreciate some feedback from people about this.

<In fact I will start a New Thread>

If nothing else, who have you had do work, or supply parts, and had good luck with?

Thanks,

Ty


This is why alot of other forums have "Buyer / Seller Ratings " section .A forum to talk about your buying & selling experiences with other forum individuals,vendors,shops,e.t.c.

I'm sure it can drag some sponsors and vendors in mud once in a while,so it may not work out so well for the site, but it would be nice to see honest reviews

[ironworks]

To All:

This is a really good thread, and I think many can learn from it.

Are their any venders, that restore, paint, sell parts etc. that advertise on Lateral-g or Pro-Touring.com that are jerks, liars, or cheaters?

Having a list of Good Qualified list of people to do business with would be a great way for people to help not get screwed, before they get butt deep into a major headache.

Is there ANYONE who you would not trust to do a large project, and why? I know more than likely, if someone was a crook, they would probably be thrown off the websites.

If they are allowed to advertise on these site, is that a good indicator, the people are probably on the up and up, whether it be parts or services?

I would appreciate some feedback from people about this.

<In fact I will start a New Thread>

If nothing else, who have you had do work, or supply parts, and had good luck with?

Thanks,

Ty

The problem is you will never know one way or another who is really telling the truth. There are 3 sides to every story, Customer side, Vendor side and what really happened. The only way a vendor rating would work is if you have a customer rating also. There are just as many crooked customers as crooked vendors. The only way to really know is to do you home work and be involved with the project.

[1984 camaro]

Ty.. Scott has a good list of vendors here I do everything I can to call them first. I judge a vendor on how they handle a situation when something goes wrong. All to many times people use this forum to call someone out only to find out they never tried to resolve it with the vendor in the first place!Look at what happen with Mark Bent .I can't imagine that Mark would do something like this given his reputation on this site. So what happens. The owner calls Mark out. Did he try to resolve this with Mark face to face.?Because if I spent $50,000.00 on anything I'm going to pay someone a visit. I would be willing to bet this didn't happen.. Because if it did we wouldn't be reading about it on this forum ,Mark would of done right by this member no question. I have NEVER been screwed by a REPUTABLE vendor. Do your home work!! :soapbox:Now back to Chris sorry

I went to look at the tubs in 08 when i got to chatsworth the rear Axel was out and the tubs were being painted. The tubs are not the problem the shock mounts are. Just looking at the job it looked good. So mark got paid 15,000and all was good. The binding was not seen until the car came home. Now the engine bay per phone with nelson and mark he was to keep it under 15,000 give me weekly invoices and dollars spent. But he did not follow through my first invoice came 4 weeks later And yes again I went to chatsworth to look at the car the engine bay was fresh paint and looked good, But I was told the work was rough. So mark was paid. The cracking stated at sema and buy the time the car got home there was about half a dozen cracks. I did my home work The F-Bomb that mark worked on looked good and hot rod said mark was good. The stainless work mark done was very good plus the tubs were done a year before so I have seen them before the starting of the engine bay. No I did not talk to mark since I was over charged his comments were that he does not run a charity shop. Mark had the windshield removed from the car and it was broken I did not know this until the day before sema, Mark sent a bill for a replacement windshield I told him I will not pay for that. I got a nasty letter back from mark about me as a customer, I have this letter and thinking of posting it. So that's when I called tom and asked to talk to mark that this problem needed to be fixed and mark told tom he will call me but he did not. Mark still has that chance and if can settle this He will get a good review. If you note I did not name him

[Steve1968LS2]

Ned,

Thank you very much !!! That means alot me.

I've also seen your work and have always been impressed.. sending you over Penny for some line work is high up on my list. Still is.

--------------

Shops will always have a mix of super happy customers.. happy customers and unhappy customers. It's just the nature of the gig since everyone has different expectations and desires.

The key to doing business with any shop is to look for one that has a super majority of thier customers in the "happy" catagory.

With real estate it's "location, location, location".. with picking a shop it's "references, references, references"

Never trust the shop to tell you how good they are.. trust their OVERALL reputation and thier body of work.

---

NOTE: arguing out business deals online is nearly useless and even pictures don't tell the whole story (either way).. I suggest both parties talk it out or take it to court.

So let's keep this thread on topic or it will shut down like a European airport downwind from a volcano.. ;)

[DRJDVM's '69]

Greg, Bob and myself visited Marks shop right before RTTC....... as I stated before....and Greg confirmed.... the work we saw all in BARE METAL was pretty impressive in my book. The pix you posted.....look pretty damn impressive to me. If thats "turd, crap metal work", then I'd like to see whats considered "good metal work".

I'd also agree that when you do a complete custom set-up, little stuff is gonna come up... like your shocks hitting. Its impossible to engineer and plan everything out 100%. When the big picture is all done, you go back and fix the small stuff. When the builder is given 4 weeks and a huge deadline like SEMA looming over them, this stuff is gonna happen. What did you expect when you force a 6 month build into 4 weeks? I've seen and heard of quite a few cars that get slapped together for SEMA and then get torn apart and stuff is done "right" after the show. If you put yourself int that situation, then the responsibility is yours.

And I also agree.....take this offline....no one is gonna win here.....

[RECOVERY ROOM]

No one will win.This needs to be taken care of in private.

[GregWeld]

100% with Ned and Tracy....

This is a private matter - and really isn't forum material. Chris' original post is the type that should be posted here because its a learning experience for all of us... and no names were mentioned because he was just trying to build awareness.

The other Bent/Camaro discussion which is a thread jack - is just a pissing contest with factual/un-factual statements that go all directions.

[camcojb]

I got a nasty letter back from mark about me as a customer, I have this letter and thinking of posting it.
don't post it. At this point both sides have had their say, so anything else needs to be taken to pm's.

Thanks.

Jody

[DOOM]

I went to look at the tubs in 08 when i got to chatsworth the rear Axel was out and the tubs were being painted. The tubs are not the problem the shock mounts are. Just looking at the job it looked good. So mark got paid 15,000and all was good. The binding was not seen until the car came home. Now the engine bay per phone with nelson and mark he was to keep it under 15,000 give me weekly invoices and dollars spent. But he did not follow through my first invoice came 4 weeks later And yes again I went to chatsworth to look at the car the engine bay was fresh paint and looked good, But I was told the work was rough. So mark was paid. The cracking stated at sema and buy the time the car got home there was about half a dozen cracks. I did my home work The F-Bomb that mark worked on looked good and hot rod said mark was good. The stainless work mark done was very good plus the tubs were done a year before so I have seen them before the starting of the engine bay. No I did not talk to mark since I was over charged his comments were that he does not run a charity shop. Mark had the windshield removed from the car and it was broken I did not know this until the day before sema, Mark sent a bill for a replacement windshield I told him I will not pay for that. I got a nasty letter back from mark about me as a customer, I have this letter and thinking of posting it. So that's when I called tom and asked to talk to mark that this problem needed to be fixed and mark told tom he will call me but he did not. Mark still has that chance and if can settle this He will get a good review. If you note I did not name him

Randy I hope you guys can work this out! No sides taken. Mark has been good to use on this forum.Im sure all will be made good. I agree with Greg and Ned .Lets get back to the real issue here.Don't want to see this thread shut down..:cheers:

[wedged]

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/popcorn.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[1984 camaro]

Randy I hope you guys can work this out! No sides taken. Mark has been good to use on this forum.Im sure all will be made good. I agree with Greg and Ned .Lets get back to the real issue here.Don't want to see this thread shut down..:cheers:

I hope so to

[CRCRFT78]

I have no side in this pissing match that's going on but can you two either start your own thread or resolve it privately. Too many threads end up like this and get locked because we can't stay on topic with the original post. I for one don't care to continue reading about this personal drama.

[Steve1968LS2]

ANY more comments on that deal will be deleated.. period.


Now lets get back on topic. :)

[mciver1959]

I did see one awesome thing in those mustang pictures.....

the car is parked at BUTTERFLY BEACH, SANTA BARBARA CA one of the greatest beaches in the world!!!!

HA!

[jeff s]

Had a car similar to that, with bondo over newspaper and cardboard stuffed in the frame and bondo'd over. After the battery cable shorted out. The owner went to jack it up with the floor jack, and it colapsed into the frame. Eventually we found a rust free frame and replaced it, big job. The owner had originally bought it from one of the well known movie car dealers in the Chitown area. Actually had a few cars in my shop like that.

[fesler]

Same thing that happend to Andy (MARINE 1) .This is what $80.000 got him and the guy is still in buisness!!!!! Andy still has no car and lots of lawyer bills. The guy basicaly told him to go F@&K HIMSELF!!!!!! Just robbed the man of $80.000. This isn't half the pictures. I went with Andy last year and saw this beauty in person I wanted to puke!!! You should of heard this j@#koff's line's of bulls@#t. You would have thought he was Chip Foose...:mad:

Yeah I heard all about this one at the Super Chevy show, man I feel for some of these people and I want to figure out a way to help stop it. We have to be able to do something together to stop this crap. These people need to be closed down for good and not allowed to work on cars anymore.

[fesler]

there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a small shop building cars,some of the small shop projects can blow away the big shop's finished product,it takes some research and checking out their work in person. Most big shops have big overhead and in the end the customer pays for it,

There will always be crooks and butchers and naive fools with more money than brains, if they have no common sense,they should at least get a proffesional to check the car they are looking to buy.

That Mustang surely wasn't checked ,because putting it on the lift would provide more than enough evidence to stay away from it, because it would turn in horse shoe as soon as the lift or jack touch the rockers or floors of that rust bucket.

I'm simply defending small shops that do quality work,because I actually own a small shop and my customers get alot more than they actually paid for.

Alot of times I find myself fixing someone's half-ass work, and it makes me sick to see some of hack work.

Recent example,a year old Nissan GTR with small ding on fender and quarter panel was repaired and the whole side was painted including both bumpers,not one single piece of trim was removed, not even rear nameplate or the tag brackets ,which are held by 1 Phillip's head screw, there was so much dirt and fisheyes in the paint ,you'd get a better finish in the middle of desert sand storm, the tire dressing that was slung on the wheelwell edges wasn't even wiped off,let alone scuffed, I'm sure most of you get the picture. I've done alot of spot repair on brand new still in plastic cars for a local dealership, they also deal with a big franchise shop ,that had their SUV for over 6 months repairing side damage, in process of repair the vehicle caught on fire from idiots welding, that SUV still ended up at my shop for spot repairs for the damge that the shop caused, and till this day the dealership still takes their cars to that shop

Another example ,last fall I got a call from a guy ,that one of my Supra customers gave my number to, he was looking to buy a built Supra,being a Supra fanatic/collector/builder, I offered to build one for him to his specs,or if he gives me few days I could help him finding one ,but the guy had the patience of a 3 year old, needless to say,1 day fast forward ,he calls me to ask if he can bring his new Supra to check why it doesn't start, I get it in the air to check the stater,the power wire is hanging,lol, the whole underside is covered in fresh oil, crappy paint job ,even the battery got painted halfway,runs,trash,orangepeel, with poor attempt to sand and buff,leaving sanded and not buffed areas, poor fitting body panels,one big mess under the hood, speaker grille on door panels are glued on with some poop glue, Wal-Mart carpet pieces was just thrown in to cover the floor, radio does not work,right window does not go up, trunk floor has so much dirt,rust and gunk as some junk yard truck, radiator has rusty mud instead of coolant.

In less than a month I had to replace all A/C lines,because of crappy install of overflow tank causing the tank to rub through the lines and making a hole, replaced A/C compressor,dryer,expansion valve and pressure switch prior to that, because it locked up,replaced idler pulley ,replaced headlights because they were fogged up and cracking,

Here is the kicker, the guy went by himself to buy this car,paid $35.000 cash and didn't even bother to pop the hood, he even admitted that to me. So I think this kind of fools deserve to be screwed, I would gladly go and check out a car for someone at no charge and I offered it to him.So people like that should blame themselves first and the butchers second.



I've also seen photos of well known shop on here with not so great welds,but I will not point fingers or mention names


Stefan,

We are a small shop as well so I am not knocking on any small shops, I dont ever want to be a large shop because you cant control all this stuff. I know for a fact that with a shop like mine you get a better deal than with most larger shops becuase of all the extras you get in the build because our name is on it.

[fesler]

I think Chris emphasized in post # 6, that small shops can't put out high quality work ,at least that's what I got

OK lets not get all worked up over this I am not baggin on small shops as I am one myself. We only have 5 guys that work on cars so that is small.

[DOOM]

Has anyone else on this web sight ever been taken for 80 grand and counting for a 69 Camaro? Anyone?

:_paranoid :_paranoid Andy............. Calm down! Do I have to send Curtis over there ???:P Your not alone..

[2Bad4Ya]

I think Chris' original remarks are geared toward a ever growing group of people who have seen the interest in cars spread and are trying to cash in. The television has brought cars into a more mainstream movement with overhaulin, barret jackson auctions on tv, etc...

Robby Ray is sitting there watching Barret Jackson in his lazyboy on the front porch and a light goes on in his head; "Heck that rust bucket out in Ned's field could be worth $$$$, with some bondo and paint. So he proceeds to build a car out of bondo and bailing wire. It will look good for a month or so and then it goes down hill.

We all know someone like this, these are the people I think Chris was targeting.

[fesler]

I think Chris' original remarks are geared toward a ever growing group of people who have seen the interest in cars spread and are trying to cash in. The television has brought cars into a more mainstream movement with overhaulin, barret jackson auctions on tv, etc...

Robby Ray is sitting there watching Barret Jackson in his lazyboy on the front porch and a light goes on in his head; "Heck that rust bucket out in Ned's field could be worth $$$$, with some bondo and paint. So he proceeds to build a car out of bondo and bailing wire. It will look good for a month or so and then it goes down hill.

We all know someone like this, these are the people I think Chris was targeting.

Yes Dead on I am not out to point any fingers or names the guys that do this kind of work know who they are. I just wanted to point out some fine detials on what to look for so it wont happen as much. I know they will go on making crap cars but if everyone buying a car knows what to look for it will make it harder for them.

[RECOVERY ROOM]

There is always going to be those guys, Buyers just need to be careful when buying a car, that is a good point Chris.

[Spiffav8]

So why don't we start a thread and allow Chris and a few of our other talented builders to walk us through the process of buying and building a car. It can start with a simple walk around, when buying. Tricks that are used to cover up the stuff that none of us want to end up with. Then it can move onto picking a shop for our virtual project. One that will build a typical PT type car. They can post pictures and give info that educates us all on what things should look like at every stage of a build.

I doubt we can ever stop people from ripping each other off, but maybe we can help keep this from happening to our members here at LG.

[fesler]

So why don't we start a thread and allow Chris and a few of our other talented builders to walk us through the process of buying and building a car. It can start with a simple walk around, when buying. Tricks that are used to cover up the stuff that none of us want to end up with. Then it can move onto picking a shop for our virtual project. One that will build a typical PT type car. They can post pictures and give info that educates us all on what things should look like at every stage of a build.

I doubt we can ever stop people from ripping each other off, but maybe we can help keep this from happening to our members here at LG.

That is a great idea Curits, I did not start this post to knock any shops. Just to make people aware of bad work. I am getting tired of people bringing cars into my shop like this, it takes way to long to fix and cost double to do. I just want guys to watch what they buy and make sure they check the cars out. Big and small shops need to step it up and work together to help stop this stuff.

[DRJDVM's '69]

"Heck that rust bucket out in Ned's field could be worth $$$$

Hey now...leave me out of this :)..... the car in my field is pretty nice.....

[MWCC]

Well, I have to agree with Chris' original post in that the bad work out there is becomming more apparent. I think it's mainly because of the mad rush to make fast money when muscle cars (especially Camaro's) started going through the roof several years ago. Before I met Todd, I was building a car for another customer. He had purchased a Camaro online but not ebay. I'd have to say that the car looked as advertised when it arrived. The seller said it was ready to paint with no rust and it looked close to that description when it showed up. Well I saw a small bit of seam sealer on the floor durring disassembly and decided to pick at it. I didn't stop picking until the Car needed a new floor, firewall, outer houses, fenders, etc....you get the picture. The LH door was hitting the "A" pillar so I pulled on it and found a 1/4" gap that was filled with duraglass. Actually, the pillar was no longer attached to the car. The replacement quarters were not even welded to the door jam and they never fixed the wheelhouses. Can't tell you how many times I see guys put quarters on without fixing the wheelhouses. If that customer would have had me just paint the car and not fix it, I'm sure it would have killed him. The lack of welds throughout was incredible. I think a lot of novices have no idea of what "Uni-body" means or even care about safety.

To say the buyer was at fault would be correct to an extent since he didn't pay for an inspection or inspect the car himself. He spent another $10k on the car just to have me fix all the problems. It came from a body shop who filled it full of mud to get it out the door. Just like Chris' friend, they did a great job making it look like all the rust was repaired properly.

I also agree that ebay has a lot of junk, but you do on rare occasion find a good solid car. "Payback" came from ebay and it was a very solid car. I remeber looking at the car for Todd and was very surprised at how good it really was. I told Todd that if he didn't buy the car I would. Like many have already said in this thread, don't go cheap and always personally inspect any facility doing work for you if possible. Customers shell out a lot of money for what they expect to be quality work. There are however customers who want to cut corners to save a buck. I usually tell those customers to find another shop because my name is on the line. I also doubt if they would tell anyone that they told me to do a crappy job. Some shops have no sense of pride because they are rulled by the almighty dollar. I'm a different breed. I do this because I actually like it and take great pride in giving a quality job as I'm sure the shops that are a part of Lat-g do as well.

Here's a few pics of the Camaro I mentioned above.


Both quarters were never welded to the jam
http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt38/MWCC_album/100_1395.jpg

"A" pillar cob job!
http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt38/MWCC_album/100_1297.jpg

Nice floor pan repair with Duraglass!
http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt38/MWCC_album/100_1097.jpg

[Northeast Rod Run]

WOW.... just WOW, is all I can say after reading this whole thread