Cable drive or fly-by-wire

[Jimi-FM3]

Hey guys, I'd like to get your opinion on whether to install a cable drive or fly-by-wire throttle body and why. My LS3 is shipping without a throttle body and I'd like to make an informed choice on the way to go. Thanks for your input.

[70rs]

I am glad you posted this question Jimi. I would like to see the responses too.

[214Chevy]

Forgive me for riding on the same coat tail, but I want to know as well. Which is better or the benefits of one over the other?:question: :question:

[Autokraft]

Hey guys, I'd like to get your opinion on whether to install a cable drive or fly-by-wire throttle body and why. My LS3 is shipping without a throttle body and I'd like to make an informed choice on the way to go. Thanks for your input.


Hey Jimi, what are you building?


Kurt

[ironworks]

I believe it more depends on the ECU system your using. FAST will be drive by cable. Stock GM ECU for an LS3 with be a drive by wire.

There may be more. But that's what I know. It ain't much but it's something.

I have an Extra Drive by wire throttle body if you need it. And a Drive by cable unit if you want that one also.

[Jimi-FM3]

I believe it more depends on the ECU system your using. FAST will be drive by cable. Stock GM ECU for an LS3 with be a drive by wire.

There may be more. But that's what I know. It ain't much but it's something.

I have an Extra Drive by wire throttle body if you need it. And a Drive by cable unit if you want that one also.

Sweet, I'm leaning towards the fly-by-wire so put my name on that one unless someone on here convinces me otherwise. I still need the ECU and harness, so I can still go either way.

[Jimi-FM3]

Hey Jimi, what are you building?


Kurt

Hey Kurt, I've got an LS3 on the way from Turn Key in Oceanside - it's a crate with a little bit hotter cam and valve springs. I'm putting in my 69 AMX project

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=25450

[extralight]

I'm interested in everyone's response as well. I'm getting my engine from Regal Performance which has supplied some builds here. Ron there believes that a normal LS engine is fine with drive by wire but one with a hotter cam responds better to cable. He built up a LS3 for his own ride with drive by wire and hated it so much he did switched it out to cable. Given this feedback and his personal experience I opted for cable.

[coolwelder62]

Jimi;Why do you use one of the new Toyota drive by wire TB & gas pedal.:lol: :lol:

[ironworks]

Jimi;Why do you use one of the new Toyota drive by wire TB & gas pedal.:lol: :lol:


I hear they're FAST.....

[Vegas69]

Jimi;Why do you use one of the new Toyota drive by wire TB & gas pedal.:lol: :lol:

That's what I was thinking....great mind think alike. Or something like that. :_paranoid

[XcYZ]

I was hesitant at first going throttle by wire as I didn't know if it would hinder performance. I guess I saw it primarily as utilitarian.

After putting a fair amount of miles on my car and playing with EFI Live, I would absolutely recommend going with a GM ECM and throttle by wire. If/when I do another car, I will definitely go that route again.

[James OLC]

I went with a cable activated TB because (a) I'm still a bit of a dinasaur and (b) there were some debates going on in some of the different sanctioning bodies about the legality of DBW in competition. Obviously there are now lots of DBW cars in competition so it's evolved past that now.

The only comparitive feedback that I can offer or have been given is 1. DBW can have a slight or momentary disconnect between driver input and the engines response and 2. there might be a bit more sensitivity with the cable throttle but there might be hiccup with that as it [i]might[/m] be possible to open the throttle mechanically faster than the TPS can compensate. Might.

I don't think that there is a right or a wrong answer Jimi - I think that it will depend more on the ECM choice than anything.

[Steve1968LS2]

Forgive me for riding on the same coat tail, but I want to know as well. Which is better or the benefits of one over the other?:question: :question:

Cable: Less electronics.. adjust idle with a tool.. can flip the butterfly with your finger to show off to friends. Down: have to run a cable at the right angle, have to punch it though the firewall, less adjustability, subject to mechanical failure. Oh, with cable you can go with a bigger TB.. like 105mm.

TBW: cleaner install, more adjustability, easy to wire in gas pedal, cleaner firewall, comes with GMPP harness kit, TBW TB ships with all new GMPP crate engines. Down: subject to electrical failure, stuck with 90mm TB, can't blip the throttle from the engine bay so you have non-impressed friends.

:)

I personally love the TBW system on Penny.. many hard miles with no issues.. after all, this stuff comes on new cars so it's pretty dependable (just stay clear of the Toyota TBW stuff)

[scherp69]

Down: subject to electrical failure, stuck with 90mm TB,

Nick Williams now has a 102mm DBW intake. It's the one I'll be getting to go with my 102mm FAST intake. http://www.lgmotorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2189&osCsid=be3

[Matt@BOS]

Wow guys, I'm a bit surpised you would wish a Toyota drive-by-wire assembly on Jimi, I always though people around here liked the guy. :_paranoid

Anyway, Jimi, did you order the engine as Turnkey's basic package, or sans wiring and everything else they typically throw in with the package? I know they generally use a cable throttle body with their engines, which are setup with with Delphi ECMs, so if you're getting everything from Turnkey, then it might be easiest to go the cable route, although since they use Delphi ECMs the choice is probably yours.

I just spent last week really learning to drive with Corvettes out at Bondurant and was quite happy with the drive-by-wire gas pedal, then again I'm pretty use to those types of pedals as I have one in my Mustang. In my opinion they definitely have a different feel than cables.

Matt

[GregWeld]

Just installed the DBW / TBW in the 55 Post -- on an LS2... it was super simple - clean firewall - works flawlessly and I had ZERO to adjust.

[Tom.A]

Another vote for DBW. That's what I have on my LS3 along with Speartech harness. Not running yet but seemed like the right choice.

[98ssnova]

Might have to switch to DBW but that means i would need a new ECU correct I have one out of my 98ss camaro?

[projectile]

I'm going with dbw with a GM ecu. I like the idea of a simple cruise control set up...

[CreepinDeth]

Jimi;Why do you use one of the new Toyota drive by wire TB & gas pedal.:lol: :lol:

I'll never own a death by wire newer vehicle.
I don't like a computer controlling my throttle. No thanks.

I'll keep all my cars drive by cable for as long as I can.
I know all newer vehicles use DBW now, but I really just want NOTHING to do with it.

[coolwelder62]

Jimi I was joking about the Toyota thing.I like you man.But when you drove my car at the kc goodguys it has a DBW. TB. in it. The GM stuff is safe it's made in USA!!!!.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[frank]

The motor purchased from Fesler came with the DBW throttle body so I just kept that one. By the way, it was cheaper going that route because I found a complete kit that will run an LS3 for cheap..........how cheap.........$1000 shipped and it includes: engine harness, ECU, throttle pedal, pedal harness, MAF, oxygen sensors, and weld on bungs for oxy sensors. I know it sounds too good to be true but I ordered it already, paid for it already, and anxiously waiting for the UPS guy to knock on my door tomorrow! :thumbsup:

[Bow Tie 67]

Might have to switch to DBW but that means i would need a new ECU correct I have one out of my 98ss camaro?

Correct, E67 or E38 ecu plus new harness and 58 tooth reluctor.

As far as easy cruise control, last I checked the verdict is still out on the GMPP E67 ecu's. They are custom calibrations from the factory.

[69MyWay]

I've done both. After been there done that X4 - I go with the DBW everytime.

Why?

1. you can stuff a lot larger cam in there and with the right tune it won't stall or hunt for idle like the alternative as there is much more control available than just the screw set and idle air motor found in the dbc.

2. CRUISE CONTROL - with a complete DBW, all you have to do is hook any old or new GM column mount cruise switch up and you are good to go. It is that simple.

3. CLEANER - the pedal takes up a little more space, but no cable to run or adjust or look at. You will have wires going to the t/b no matter what - so what is the big deal of adding two more (that is all that is needed to power the motor - all the other sensors/switches are fairly identical in number to the dbc on the i/a and tps sensors).

4. It is THE thing - dbc is so.....10 years ago.

5. Issues have been ironed out - seems like all the aftermarket harness guys have a handle on this now - and there is ample info out there. you can run into some problems as all DBW gm parts are not the same. In other words, a truck throttle body and Corvette are different - so if it is an early DBW, the TAC module has to match the parts being used making mix and match harder. In the current gen of DBW, it is more simple as there is no TAC module, but the t/b and pedal still have to match up. So...a little more homework is needed but once the right stuff is there - you are golden.

[Ron in SoCal]

So if I have an L92 complete (2007), do I keep the pedal and TB that came with it? I was wondering if that TB will have the performance I am looking for. I need to change the intake to an LS3 style.

[Stuart Adams]

By wire.

[69MyWay]

So if I have an L92 complete (2007), do I keep the pedal and TB that came with it? I was wondering if that TB will have the performance I am looking for. I need to change the intake to an LS3 style.


Is your L92 out of a Caddi SUV? What intake is on there now?

[Jimi-FM3]

Wow guys, I'm a bit surpised you would wish a Toyota drive-by-wire assembly on Jimi, I always though people around here liked the guy. :_paranoid

Anyway, Jimi, did you order the engine as Turnkey's basic package, or sans wiring and everything else they typically throw in with the package? I know they generally use a cable throttle body with their engines, which are setup with with Delphi ECMs, so if you're getting everything from Turnkey, then it might be easiest to go the cable route, although since they use Delphi ECMs the choice is probably yours.

I just spent last week really learning to drive with Corvettes out at Bondurant and was quite happy with the drive-by-wire gas pedal, then again I'm pretty use to those types of pedals as I have one in my Mustang. In my opinion they definitely have a different feel than cables.

Matt

Thanks for the props Matt, I thought these guys we're my buddies!! :wow:

No sweat, it's all taken in good fun - and thanks to everyone for your opinions and logic. To answer a couple of questions, the motor is coming from Turn Key, but it's not out of their stock, this deal is a little out of the ordinary, so I'm getting the motor without TB, ECU or harness. I'm leaning towards DBW because I like the clean install and tunability, and it just seems to me to be the most up-to-date system. I don't like to be on the bleeding edge of certain developments, but I agree that this one seems to be worked out by GM and most of the aftermarket producers.

Just a side note, I have to laugh as we discuss the issue of cruise control - who would have thought, even 5 years ago, that cruise control would be something important to all of us??!!

[Ron in SoCal]

Is your L92 out of a Caddi SUV? What intake is on there now?

Yes it is out of an Escalade. It has the truck intake, but I've purchased an LS3 intake. Sorry for any lack of knowledge on this - it's my first time doing it!

[69MyWay]

Yes it is out of an Escalade. It has the truck intake, but I've purchased an LS3 intake. Sorry for any lack of knowledge on this - it's my first time doing it!

Okay...couple more things....

What accessories are you going to run? The Vette accessory and truck accessory are different and interfere with the driver motor for the dbw throttle body.

What transmission are you running...and confirm to me that you have the PCM, pedal, and TB right now off the Escalade.

[Ron in SoCal]

Okay...couple more things....

What accessories are you going to run? The Vette accessory and truck accessory are different and interfere with the driver motor for the dbw throttle body.

What transmission are you running...and confirm to me that you have the PCM, pedal, and TB right now off the Escalade.

OK - sorry I should been clear the first time cause all this stuff counts. I have a complete take out, including the DBW pedal. This means I have all accesories, TB, PCM, etc. 12k miles on the motor. The plan is to port the heads and get a crane cam and beehive springs (I've got an excellent motor guy - Brad @ QMP). I know I need to change the accessory brackets and have been doing the research. If it comes down to budget, I'll just get what I need, but that Wegner drive system makes me wanna spend dough:

http://s41657.storefront-solutions.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=38

I'm not going to run AC. I've also read the Car Craft article on doing it on the cheap. I'm running a TKO-600 and as mentioned I've got the LS3 intake. So here's my questions:

- Will the LS3 intake work with the L92 TB and DBW pedal?
- Do you think the stock LS3 injectors will work in my appicaction? The motor will go on the dyno after the mods.
- Any other reccomendations for my set up?
- Should we move this hijack over to the engine section?

Thanks MyWay. I appeciate your advice...

Ron

[69MyWay]

OK - sorry I should been clear the first time cause all this stuff counts. I have a complete take out, including the DBW pedal. This means I have all accesories, TB, PCM, etc. 12k miles on the motor. The plan is to port the heads and get a crane cam and beehive springs (I've got an excellent motor guy - Brad @ QMP). I know I need to change the accessory brackets and have been doing the research. If it comes down to budget, I'll just get what I need, but that Wegner drive system makes me wanna spend dough:

http://s41657.storefront-solutions.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=38

I'm not going to run AC. I've also read the Car Craft article on doing it on the cheap. I'm running a TKO-600 and as mentioned I've got the LS3 intake. So here's my questions:

- Will the LS3 intake work with the L92 TB and DBW pedal?
- Do you think the stock LS3 injectors will work in my appicaction? The motor will go on the dyno after the mods.
- Any other reccomendations for my set up?
- Should we move this hijack over to the engine section?

Thanks MyWay. I appeciate your advice...

Ron

I'll get the right answer for you on this on Friday. I need to check some part numbers and confirm. This info is out there at LS1tech..etc, but you have to piece and part it all together.

-I'm not sure exactly what t/b was on that motor - so I need to look at the mounting boss - direction of the motor and wire plug. Again, this is mostly a factor of what accessories you use based on how it sits.

-I think the stock injectors will work, but I suspect they will be maxed on the duty cycle. So yes they will work, but they will be on the edge. You will know for sure when you have it tuned.

-Your set up will be very cost effective and powerful, so other than matching the right parts I don't have any other recommendations.

[69MyWay]

The truck idle pulley runs up high where the throttle body goes when using the LS3 or L76 intake. That is why when you go with stock parts you have to match the intake to the accessory being used on the motor. The guy in the picture below was slick when setting up his DBW LS3 or L76 intake on his truck engine. He fabricated a bracket to relocate the idler pulley. I prefer to use stock pulleys whenever possible because they have a much higher track record than aftermarket bling bling.

Also, notice the throttle body in this pic. This would be the correct four bolt mount LS2, LS3, or L76 style tb that mates up to it. Your throttle body should also be 90 mm and have a four bolt mount, but it should be shaped different than this one. 2007 was an odd year and there could be a couple of different things going on. However, I would suspect you have a SIX pin wire harness plug on your tb.

On the older models you had to get a conversion box to plug into then go from there to your t/b to do this swap. The guy in this photo has one of those as noted. You should not need that on yours. However, it is possible your t/b will mount to the LS intake - but I'm still trying to confirm that.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r198/thesecondfez1974/IMG_0232.jpg

Picture below is of the older style ECM with TAC module type harness that requires a conversion box to attach the correct t/b to this intake the TRP X-Link 2.1

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r198/thesecondfez1974/IMG_0233.jpg

[69MyWay]

Just pulled the schematic between the Escalade and Vette harness & Parts.

Both the Vette and Caddy use the same wire harness terminal plug part number for the 2007 6.2 and the LS Vette -

I have attached the schematic for the Caddy and Vette.

They both use the same plugs, but a couple of the wire colors and feference terminals are different.

Based on this, I would say if you can get the Caddy t/b to bolt on the intake and clear then there is no reason why it won't all go.

I can't confirm for sure at this moment if the Vette t/b will talk to the Caddy pedal and ECM as you can see they are wired different.

[93Polo]

I've done both. After been there done that X4 - I go with the DBW everytime.

Why?

1. you can stuff a lot larger cam in there and with the right tune it won't stall or hunt for idle like the alternative as there is much more control available than just the screw set and idle air motor found in the dbc.

2. CRUISE CONTROL - with a complete DBW, all you have to do is hook any old or new GM column mount cruise switch up and you are good to go. It is that simple.

3. CLEANER - the pedal takes up a little more space, but no cable to run or adjust or look at. You will have wires going to the t/b no matter what - so what is the big deal of adding two more (that is all that is needed to power the motor - all the other sensors/switches are fairly identical in number to the dbc on the i/a and tps sensors).

4. It is THE thing - dbc is so.....10 years ago.

5. Issues have been ironed out - seems like all the aftermarket harness guys have a handle on this now - and there is ample info out there. you can run into some problems as all DBW gm parts are not the same. In other words, a truck throttle body and Corvette are different - so if it is an early DBW, the TAC module has to match the parts being used making mix and match harder. In the current gen of DBW, it is more simple as there is no TAC module, but the t/b and pedal still have to match up. So...a little more homework is needed but once the right stuff is there - you are golden.

As a former C5 owner the DBW is responsive but feel is lost. I never was as in touch with my C5 as other cars and arcade games give as much feedback as a C5. The throttle feels soft like a factory 60s power steering setup imo sure you run turn when you want but do you feel connected with the car?

DBW allowing more cam? 5.7 LS1s are running cams in the 240s at .050 and idle just fine, any more cam and it isn't a street car imo and would have a cam far to big for the application.

I do agree the swap has been ironed out and would not have safety concerns.

I want to use Cable when ever possible. I picked up my '01 2500HD truck wanting to go old enough to keep cable and want to keep swaps cable when ever possible. The only drawback to cable is cruise control imo.

[Ron in SoCal]

Just pulled the schematic between the Escalade and Vette harness & Parts.

Both the Vette and Caddy use the same wire harness terminal plug part number for the 2007 6.2 and the LS Vette -

I have attached the schematic for the Caddy and Vette.

They both use the same plugs, but a couple of the wire colors and feference terminals are different.

Based on this, I would say if you can get the Caddy t/b to bolt on the intake and clear then there is no reason why it won't all go.

I can't confirm for sure at this moment if the Vette t/b will talk to the Caddy pedal and ECM as you can see they are wired different.


MyWay - thanks for your research. It definately will come in handy when I do the install. Based on above, I could try to re-wire the connector to the TB, but after I bolt it and accessories up, if I have to I will get parts that match (TB ->DBW). Appreciate the advice!

Ron

[69MyWay]

MyWay - thanks for your research. It definately will come in handy when I do the install. Based on above, I could try to re-wire the connector to the TB, but after I bolt it and accessories up, if I have to I will get parts that match (TB ->DBW). Appreciate the advice!

Ron

FYI - I talked to jantzerperformance and he confirmed the LS2/3 throttle body is a direct replacement electronically. Based on that - If your Caddy truck style t/b won't bolt up and clear everything needed - you can go this way.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200360685736&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123

[Ron in SoCal]

FYI - I talked to jantzerperformance and he confirmed the LS2/3 throttle body is a direct replacement electronically. Based on that - If your Caddy truck style t/b won't bolt up and clear everything needed - you can go this way.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200360685736&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123

Wow - love thier stuff! What do you know about them? Does it perform? I remember when the Weiend LS intake came out, it looked great, but dyno results showed it only made good power up to about 6k...

[69MyWay]

Wow - love thier stuff! What do you know about them? Does it perform? I remember when the Weiend LS intake came out, it looked great, but dyno results showed it only made good power up to about 6k...

They're okay. Great prices. The thing is, these ported out parts work best when matched to other performance parts. In your application you might see some gain. The cool thing is, if you need a new t/b anyway - might as well get one that has been reworked since you need it anyway.

[Ron in SoCal]

Cool. Thanks again...