And Penny just keeps on changing...

[Steve1968LS2]

After Optima last year we got really busy improving Penny. We added sperical bearings, ZR1 hubs, Raceseng drop billet uprights and a custom Pozzi Racing sway bar. The car was almost "reborn" since it was so much better.

Then we took the summer off from performance mods (well, except for that STACK stuff) and drove the car at events around the county.

Well, SEMA is here again so we wanted to do more to the car.. quite a bit more. Dave Pozzi cut holes, notched frames, pulled the rear and we did a host of mods to the car. We may not win again, but we're going to at least give it a good try. :)

Larger Baer brakes installed. Ditched the parking brake which meant the 14-inch rotors actually weigh less than the 13-inch with the integrated drum.
http://i34.tinypic.com/7130b4.jpg

Front brakes fit like they were machined for these wheels. We are running a new pad from Hawk that they developed for circle track cars. They come on at 100 and last to well over 1000-degrees.
http://i38.tinypic.com/3ef5h.jpg

Since this is the Optima Invitational we decided to move to an Optima battery.. In this case thier 26-lb Group 51 unit. The battery tray came from www.eddiemotorsports.com and they even etched in the BP logo.
http://i33.tinypic.com/2l8eykx.jpg

Bigger on the list was that David thought we needed more shock travel. Seems that were were on the stops durring hard turns and even on acceleration. We worked with Steve Duck over at RaceCar Dynamics and came up with a shock that's over two inches longer. The new Bilsteins are also revalved for the car. The extra length meant that we had to punch holes in the trunk floor so that this mount extender could be welded to the top of the existing brace. The top hole is for future changes if necessary. Dave sure lays down some nice welds!
http://i38.tinypic.com/2zegzmw.jpg

Here Dave slides the new rear Bilstein shock into place. Later we scaled the car. The weight was 3290 with half a tank of gas. With a driver our cross weights are at 50/50 and the front rear are 52/48.
http://i34.tinypic.com/a0dxck.jpg

[Steve1968LS2]

Last Sunday we bolted on the race tires and took Penny to the autocross at Marina. The course was tight for the imports but it was a good handling test. Myself, Dave and Mary all took turns. All I can say is that the changes really helped the car, we actually be fast now. lol

Racepak data shows were doing sustained 1.3+g turns and my iPod deal recorded peaks of:

Acceleration 1.10g
Braking: 1.41g
Left: 1.42
Right: 1.41

Car felt great but we found that due to the increased size of the front calipers we need a 1-inch bore master rather than the 7/8" one we have now. That part is going on tomorrow.

http://i33.tinypic.com/wrzv9t.jpg

[Vegas69]

I love this part of the build. With every change the car improves. I'm so glad I didnt get in the challenge this year. I want another year to race and make these kind of changes. Looks awesome. :thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

I love this part of the build. With every change the car improves. I'm so glad I didnt get in the challenge this year. I want another year to race and make these kind of changes. Looks awesome. :thumbsup:

All you have to do is win and you get to come back the next year.. lol.. or be a paying sponsor.. take your pick :)

Here's proof that cars are never really ever "done"...
http://i37.tinypic.com/296bw9h.jpg

[tones2SS]

Man, can this car get any better? lol
Very nice Steve. Good luck at SEMA!!:thumbsup: :cheers:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Are all the improvements 'Smokey' Pozzi made listed above? :unibrow:

[Steve1968LS2]

Are all the improvements 'Smokey' Pozzi made listed above? :unibrow:

I only failed to mention the ones that never officially happened.... :_paranoid

[fleetus macmullitz]

I only failed to mention the ones that never officially happened.... :_paranoid

That's what Smokey Y. used to say. :lol:

[buickfunnycar.com]

Looks like a lot of bolt-in parts there Steve...:_paranoid

[customcam]

Love it ...
Steve can you give us a run down on the brakes?

[MODO Innovations]

Hey Steve,
Can you get me a close-up shot of the new trunk latch catch so I can put it on my site and take down the shot of the old one?

[GregWeld]

SO..... do you get invited back if you win again this year??


:lateral: :cheers: :woot:

[KPC67]

Cool updates Steve, Good luck again this year.:thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

Love it ...
Steve can you give us a run down on the brakes?

What do you want to know?

Cool updates Steve, Good luck again this year.:thumbsup:

Thanks, we will need it.. between letting in the kit cars and having to go against heavy hitters like Stielow in crazy cars like the Jackass winning will be more luck than skill. But, we will go down swinging.. :)

Hey Steve,
Can you get me a close-up shot of the new trunk latch catch so I can put it on my site and take down the shot of the old one?

I will take one tomorrow.. I forgot to send you one soon and with my car gone all summer it was challenging.

[nvr2fst]

Steve,
On the Hawk pads are they the new DTC70. They say that there good up to 1600 deg. Ive been watching some threads going on elsewhere on this pad (DTC70) More rotor friendly than the HT10. Better performance than PFC and Carbotechs. And rumor has it there beyound Wilwood H.
Havent found real comparison tests done yet. But from individuals you switched to these are highly recommending on track use. DTC70 I believe are bonded not rivited.
Dave

[nvr2fst]

All you have to do is win and you get to come back the next year.. lol.. or be a paying sponsor.. take your pick :)

Here's proof that cars are never really ever "done"...
http://i37.tinypic.com/296bw9h.jpg

GREAT PHOTO.
Dont make me search old posts..... what kind of camera/lens are you using.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,
On the Hawk pads are they the new DTC70. They say that there good up to 1600 deg. Ive been watching some threads going on elsewhere on this pad (DTC70) More rotor friendly than the HT10. Better performance than PFC and Carbotechs. And rumor has it there beyound Wilwood H.
Havent found real comparison tests done yet. But from individuals you switched to these are highly recommending on track use. DTC70 I believe are bonded not rivited.
Dave

No, they are the even newer DTC30 pads.. developed for circle track applications.

The upside is they come on a low 100 deg and hold well over 1000.. perfect for this sort of event where segments will be ran with pretty cold brakes.

[Steve1968LS2]

GREAT PHOTO.
Dont make me search old posts..... what kind of camera/lens are you using.

That's with my Canon 49D and I think my Canon 10-22 wide angle lens. I only shoot with three.. the wide, a 28-135 IS lens and my mac daddy 70-200 IS 2.8f lens.

Oh, and that's on a tripod with a longer exposure.

[nvr2fst]

No, they are the even newer DTC30 pads.. developed for circle track applications.

The upside is they come on a low 100 deg and hold well over 1000.. perfect for this sort of event where segments will be ran with pretty cold brakes.

Good point on the short distance events. Ill wait to hear response in the future when your thrashing on them. Have you had them on long enough to determine if there street friendly.

[cmraman]

That's with my Canon 49D and I think my Canon 10-22 wide angle lens. I only shoot with three.. the wide, a 28-135 IS lens and my mac daddy 70-200 IS 2.8f lens.

Oh, and that's on a tripod with a longer exposure.

I think you mean 40D

[Musclerodz]

With 6P calipers, has to be 14" Pro-Plus kit front and rear. I have been selling a bunch of those kits lately. They are definitely an awesome piece

[customcam]

What do you want to know?

How do they compare to the older brakes you had ?

[Steve1968LS2]

What do you want to know?

How do they compare to the older brakes you had ?

Sort of unfair to compare.. the Wilwoods were great.. these should be better due to the larger rotor but you can get that with the Wilwoods.

I will say this.

Pro of Wilwoods = brige bolts for easy pad swaps
Pro of Baers = C5/C6 pads you can find anywhere

The parts in the kit are very nice and the machining is beautiful. So far I like them. I think either company makes a quality piece.

I will say we measured and the Baer brakes have more piston area, but both have rear brakes that are too small in my opinion. I would like them to be 50/50 and then adjust the backs down with the prop valve. Right now I have the backs turned to full. (I think right now the Baers are 60/40 in terms of bias (based on piston area).

Good point on the short distance events. Ill wait to hear response in the future when your thrashing on them. Have you had them on long enough to determine if there street friendly.

No, just drove to the track.. like any hi-po pad they seem a bit dusty but no noise so far.

I have to drive 200 miles on them Friday to a TV Interview so I will let you know. After Optima I will swap to the street pads provided by Baer.

[Steve1968LS2]

Earlier in the year we installed the Pafdt solid bearings (control arms), the ZR1 bearing hubs, the Raceseng billet upright, and the upgraded ball joints. I wouldn't imagine I have any deflection now.

What we did earlier in the year:
http://i42.tinypic.com/2py6wk6.jpg

[Cris@JCG]

The uprights are insane!! beautiful machined pcs..

[tones2SS]

I've noticed more and more people going with Baer brakes lately.
I noticed that Nick will be using them on Orange Krate as well, and they look like a killer set up.:wow:

[GregWeld]

I've noticed more and more people going with Baer brakes lately.
I noticed that Nick will be using them on Orange Krate as well, and they look like a killer set up.:wow:

I'm wondering if this doesn't have to do with the "pad knockback" issue? The Baers are floating caliper vs the Wilwood being fixed... (not sure of my facts here...) So is that a good reason??

[Vegas69]

Nope....the baers in the photo are also fixed and would suffer the same fate by an external source.

[GregWeld]

Todd --

Shows ya what I know! ZIP!!

My Baers are floating - so ASS umed these mondo by giant versions must be as well.

I'm spending some MAJOR FACE TIME at SEMA in the brake booths again. In '07 after talking to lots of the factory folks is when I came home and went with the Wilwood 7/8" MC and all manual for my Nomad... and now I'm going to have to upgrade to some of these nasty by kool "mo larga" versions before Power Tour!!

[Steve1968LS2]

I'm wondering if this doesn't have to do with the "pad knockback" issue? The Baers are floating caliper vs the Wilwood being fixed... (not sure of my facts here...) So is that a good reason??

The Baer 6Ps are fixed just like the Wilwoods.. the problem is axle flex under high g load.. I predict a full floater is in my future.. :yes:

[Steve1968LS2]

Working on changing the master cylinder today and giving Penny a new look for SEMA.. we stole all the Anvil CF parts off the shelf for the Track Rat. lol

We were going to run the sheetmetal spoiler from Jakes, but even though it was said to have shipped it never arrived. Anvil was nice enough to save our bacon and send us over one of their CF units.

We couldn't mod the parts or the car since the old parts needed to go back on and the Anvil parts needed to go onto the Rat, so fitment is what it is, but I will say thier stuff fits REALLY GOOD right out of the box.

Thanks to Larry we also got the right hood struts for the CF hood. We will weigh the whole car when done. I'm hoping for under 3300 with gas.

http://i37.tinypic.com/25iuplf.jpg

[Al Moreno]

Looking nice Steve. I really like the look on Penny. You want to get another set just for her.

Andy idea how much weight your saving with all the pieces?

[KPC67]

Steve,
Did you purchase some S03's for Penny?
I have been considering these since I can no longer get wheels from Fikse...
Could we see a full pic?
Ps. The car is going to be deadly:yes:

[eville]

Steve, Penny looks amazing. Good luck at Optima.

Are you going to be selling your wilwoods? I'm in your backyard now....

[David Pozzi]

Putting the shocks on was way more work than I thought it'd be, but the results were worth it. A car just can't function right with insufficient suspension travel, and we've been suffering with that since last year. I was pretty reluctant to even cut or weld on Penny at first! Often an improvement creates other problems that must be dealt with. The front spindles are drop spindles, and position the shocks at a more extended length, so we are nearly out of extension travel. It doesn't seem to be hurting performance, but it's one of those things that just isn't right, and we won't really know if there are "real" gains until we lengthen them.
David

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,
Did you purchase some S03's for Penny?
I have been considering these since I can no longer get wheels from Fikse...
Could we see a full pic?
Ps. The car is going to be deadly:yes:

I love the S03s.. if you go to my fquick page linked at the bottom there are lots of pictures. Good wheels and light.

Looking nice Steve. I really like the look on Penny. You want to get another set just for her.

Andy idea how much weight your saving with all the pieces?

I will weigh the stuff tomorrow.. I imagine about 60 pounds.. heck the hood is about 30 lbs alone.

I do this stuff for SEMA but I like the all orange look for Penny on a normal basis.. more stealty and less like it's trying to look like a race car.


Steve, Penny looks amazing. Good luck at Optima.

Are you going to be selling your wilwoods? I'm in your backyard now....

Wilwoods are going to another project. Hey, now that your down here we will have to meet up at some events.

[Steve1968LS2]

Putting the shocks on was way more work than I thought it'd be, but the results were worth it. A car just can't function right with insufficient suspension travel, and we've been suffering with that since last year. I was pretty reluctant to even cut or weld on Penny at first! Often an improvement creates other problems that must be dealt with. The front spindles are drop spindles, and position the shocks at a more extended length, so we are nearly out of extension travel. It doesn't seem to be hurting performance, but it's one of those things that just isn't right, and we won't really know if there are "real" gains until we lengthen them.
David

Yea, gaining the extra compression from the spindles was nice but loosing the extension was unexpected. But, we seem to use compression more than extension (not many jumps). Still, it would be nice to have both. Will give us something to do over the winter.

I would say the car is more capable than it was a year ago and that's what I call "moving in the right direction".. I figure in a few years the car might actually be "done".. :lol:

[eville]

Wilwoods are going to another project. Hey, now that your down here we will have to meet up at some events.

That would be great. I'm down here Mon-Thur now. What kind of car stuff goes on around here during the week?

[camaro2nv]

Lookin good! Whats under the wrap:unibrow:

[eville]

Lookin good! Whats under the wrap:unibrow:

my guess is forced induction...

[Steve1968LS2]

my guess is forced induction...

Not this time.. we have a 2300 TVS blower but felt it would be a rush to get it on and reliable.. after all, what good if more power if the car breaks?

So, with that in mind we just going for lightweight and nimble.

The wax paper is just protecting everything from brakefluid during the MC change.. I should have engaged in psychological warfare and put a loaf of wonder bread on top of the intake... lol

[KPC67]

I love the S03s.. if you go to my fquick page linked at the bottom there are lots of pictures. Good wheels and light.

Steve, tell tell forgeline you sold them some wheels (well actually I had them picked before) but maybe you can swing me a deal:unibrow: kidding
(sort of) but when I can afford it thats what I will be going with. I just made a big purchase for my car so it will have to wait a bit. Anyway, Back to Penny:cheers:

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve, tell forgeline you sold them some wheels (well actually I had them picked before) but maybe you can swing me a deal:unibrow: kidding
(sort of) but when I can afford it thats what I will be going with. I just made a big purchase for my car so it will have to wait a bit. Anyway, Back to Penny:cheers:

Hey, I won't lie.. i got a discount but they were still expensive. Nice wheels though.

[buickfunnycar.com]

Looking good Steve...wow amazed at how different Penny looks just from last Sunday!

Lightweight street fighter...:unibrow:

[Steve1968LS2]

Two days until we leave for SEMA.

All the Anvil CF stuff is on the car.. I must say that it fits REALLY good right out of the box. We have a gap between the hood and the front valance, but since these parts are only on the car temporarily we don't want to do modifications that will make putting the steel parts back on later.

Total weight savings was over 40 lbs.. closer to 50.

New weight, with 15 gallons of gas, is 3286. So the dry weight is about 3196. For optima the car will be another 16 pounds lighter since the race tires weight quite a bit less than the PS2s.

Front to rear weight bias is 52/48.. and a little better with a driver.

http://i34.tinypic.com/2mzihzs.jpg

Here are all the CF pieces in place and stickered up for Optima. Jimi Day asked me to run last years door sticker. I like the GS stripes more than I thought I would.

Anyways, I drove the car 80 miles home last night so I could do the Speedvision deal today and then I drive it back this afternoon. Everything is A-Ok so far.

http://i38.tinypic.com/jh3q4w.jpg

[tony byram]

Wow Steve! Penny looks up to the challenge, the forgelines look great! Now go blowem of the road! :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

I love the GS stripes! I hate them on the Corvette GS (late model) but these on the Camaro make it look "race car"!

Great looking parts BTW.

Now... If I could just get Charley to part with "X" for about $35K -- I'd add a Camaro to the mix!
:rolleyes:

[KPC67]

Dang I like thoes wheels. Penny is lookin like she is in her prime, good job:thumbsup:

[70rs]

WOW Steve! She is looking GREAT!!! Good luck at the challenge!:cheers:

[camaro2nv]

Looks great, although In really like a solid color on your hood better. But that weight saving is NICE!

[89 RS]

Man, Penny looks awesome! Looks like it's time for business, love seeing the changes as usual! Good luck Steve, look forward to seeing the coverage. Can I ask what you did for Speedvision?

[buickfunnycar.com]

You should do real well this year Steve,good luck to you...:thumbsup:

[rwhite692]

Looks great Steve...what is the "Speedvision Deal"?

[DFRESH]

Sexy Beast

[Steve1968LS2]

Looks great, although In really like a solid color on your hood better. But that weight saving is NICE!

This is just for SEMA.. like a Halloween costume :)

[Steve1968LS2]

Looks great Steve...what is the "Speedvision Deal"?

They are covering the event for a show.. they shot the car (and our 2010 SS) and did interviews with Nick and myself..

I get too nervous in front of the camera.. lol

They also did some driving shots.. who knows what they will use.

[Neil B]

Wow, I like the CF pieces and the GS stripes. Very racey.

[rogue]

Penny looks great as usual.

[NOT A TA]

I like the stripes!

[GvEman]

Looks awesome as allways! :hail: The best looking Camaro on the planet! :willy: Sorry for acting silly. But thats true! :lateral:

[ibdmann]

steve1968 your car is awesome. Did you have that lateral d rear system installed. If so, what did it cost. If not does anyone know roughly what the labor cost would be to install into a 69 camaro with the interior already removed.
thanks

[Steve1968LS2]

steve1968 your car is awesome. Did you have that lateral d rear system installed. If so, what did it cost. If not does anyone know roughly what the labor cost would be to install into a 69 camaro with the interior already removed.
thanks

About $3800 but you might as well try capturing a yeti.. which is unfortunate. I think Mark may still be making them if you're willing to wait a LONG time.

IMO one of the best systems out there. Where are you located?

[Steve1968LS2]

She's at BOS right now where we will be pull the car mostly apart. The rear, trans and engine are coming out so that we can re-undercoat the bottom with something nicer.

The rear will be torn down, re powder painted and gone through by Currie enterprises. I think the tollerances are off on one of the ends resulting in a small leak.

The LS2 will go bye-bye and I will be building a 427 LS3. Instead of going crazy on stroke I will be sleeving a block at Darton. Concentrating on low and mid-range power.

Might swap to the AutoRad aluminum core support and radiator deal. I really like the HUGE opening afforded with this system and the massive size of the radiator.

Will also move from the radiator based oil cooler to an air type (Setrab).

Does it ever end? lol

[awr68]

Does it ever end? lol

No - not really....but it does keep getting better! And you have set the bar pretty high already!

Are you staying n/a with the LS3 or adding a supercharger?

Nice list of improvements for the season to come!! :cheers:

[Kendall Burleson]

Are you going to replace the rack or rebuild the unit?:yes: :yes:

[Vegas69]

Sounds like a great plan, I have a little something up my sleever right now as well.

[Steve1968LS2]

No - not really....but it does keep getting better! And you have set the bar pretty high already!

Are you staying n/a with the LS3 or adding a supercharger?

Nice list of improvements for the season to come!! :cheers:

N/A.. hoping for 630hp and a ton of torque.

I just don't want to add the weight of a blower since it would hurt me on the autocross (might help on the road course though)

[Steve1968LS2]

Are you going to replace the rack or rebuild the unit?:yes: :yes:

I will most likely have the rack checked out by AGR.. and the pump is already back at Turn One getting some lovin'.

We're pretty hard on the car so it's time to do some R&R. I don't want parts failing at the wrong time.. again...

[eville]

Must be nice... Curie is right around the corner from my office. I'd love to check that place out....

[mexMan]

So, it's getting a new 427 LS3, what are you gonna do with the LS2? And what are the mods planned for the LS3? What tranny are you using? What about the drivetrain? Any body mods? I WANT TO KNOW!

[Steve1968LS2]

So, it's getting a new 427 LS3, what are you gonna do with the LS2? And what are the mods planned for the LS3? What tranny are you using? What about the drivetrain? Any body mods? I WANT TO KNOW!

lol.. same trans.. the T56 Magnum since I love it.. no really, I have deep feelings for that trans..

No changes to the rear either. I already have an alum case and lightened/polished gears. It's just going to get serviced since I'm re-powdering the housing.

No body mods at all.. But I'm working with BOS to rework the front inner wheelhouses to give more tire clearance and to properly fit around my upper control arms.

The LS3 will be sleeved so that I can run a safe 4" stroke and will have a FAST 102 intake, Trick Flow 235 heads and a larger cam on a 114 LSA. It will be a lot like the 402 LS2 except 25 more cubes. That combo made 488 rwhp and 475 rwtq. I will never make as much power as the guys with the LS9s, but I will have better front weight for quick handling like at an autox. Normally I wouldn't bother with more power but the car seems happy with the amount I have now and should be able to handle more.

I realised this at the 0-60-0 event where, even though I mashed the gas, the car just squatted down and went.. no long burn out.. no drama. Figured I could suck up another 50-60 ft-lbs and still put it to good use. Redline should be right at 7,000 rpm.

[Kendall Burleson]

With the bigger engine your car should handle power with no promblem how often will it see 7000 rpm on a autocross?

[mexMan]

I really like your setup, but in MY personal opinion, I think you could try using lower gears for acceleration, even though I don't know what your gears ratio is, and a bit more power never hurts, for example, 450 or 550 HP is never a bad idea, and less for a Camaro like yours, I bet Penny would be 7 times happier if you passed the 500HP line.

Oh Steve, before I forget, I was thinking you could tattoo Penny, now that'd make her a lot ''badder'' than what she is now, the Bad Penny logo should be somewhere around the car, don't you think?

[Steve1968LS2]

I really like your setup, but in MY personal opinion, I think you could try using lower gears for acceleration, even though I don't know what your gears ratio is, and a bit more power never hurts, for example, 450 or 550 HP is never a bad idea, and less for a Camaro like yours, I bet Penny would be 7 times happier if you passed the 500HP line.

Oh Steve, before I forget, I was thinking you could tattoo Penny, now that'd make her a lot ''badder'' than what she is now, the Bad Penny logo should be somewhere around the car, don't you think?

I have a 2.66 first gear with 3.89 rear gears.. The car just gets going fast off the line. I'm shooting for 525ish rwhp and over 500 rwtq but I want it to come on down low and stay around in the mid range. Having more power than the car can handle putting down is pointless, but we feel Penny can handle just a bit more and have it be useful.

Now if I was just building for the road course I would build a blown LS engine and shoot for 700 rwhp.. but I'm trying for a balance between autocross and road course. Generally if a car beats me in one it won't beat me in the other.. generally.. lol

I like the exterior simple.. although I really liked the matt black hashmarks. The logo is on the battery tray and in the engine bay. I'm saving the exterior tatoo for Track Rat.

Her's how she sits right now.. hopefully we can have the drivetrain out and front end off by Christmas. Scraping off the old undercoating is going to be a royal PITA, but worth it in the end.

http://i49.tinypic.com/8yi4id.jpg

[olds87]

What are you going to do with old engine? Going to sell it?

[nvr2fst]

Ha Steve, you have a sickness. Will it ever stop, most likely not.
Well all thats left now is for body mods. Oh crap thats what track rat is for.
Great decision on the motor. I thought a while back ago you were leaning towards the LS7 what changed your mind.
Dave

[70rs]

Great list of improvements going on. I am looking forward to seeing it all together.

Wat is going to happen to the LS2 in her right now? Another project?

[Matt@BOS]

I love how your projects snowball. You are getting a new radiator and support, engine, fixing up the rear end, and modding the inner fenders all because you originally wanted to redo the undercoating, right?

Matt

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
Your plan looks good! :thumbsup:
I think the improved rear shock travel really brought Penny into a new era of even better handling. Keep track of the present rear bar setting. I think it was in the 3rd hole? This setting is VERY well balanced on the road course. Should work great for normal autocrossing but we may have to stiffen 1 hole for the Goodguys type events that are so tight. Hopefully we won't need to.

David

[monza]

Scraping off the old undercoating is going to be a royal PITA, but worth it in the end.



What are you putting under there?, Something easier to keep clean, pretty and show quality? Can't imagine you'd even have many scuffs or rock chips underneath yet?

Love the changes. I really wish you weren't adding that extra horse power... :captain:

[Steve1968LS2]

I love how your projects snowball. You are getting a new radiator and support, engine, fixing up the rear end, and modding the inner fenders all because you originally wanted to redo the undercoating, right?

Matt

It's that "While I'm here I might as well..."

The two main projects were the undercoating and the inner wheelhouses. The rest snowballed off of that. Hey, you should know all about the "snowball effect".. right? ;)

Steve,
Your plan looks good! :thumbsup:
I think the improved rear shock travel really brought Penny into a new era of even better handling. Keep track of the present rear bar setting. I think it was in the 3rd hole? This setting is VERY well balanced on the road course. Should work great for normal autocrossing but we may have to stiffen 1 hole for the Goodguys type events that are so tight. Hopefully we won't need to.

David

We took pics of all the settings and measurements of all the links and shocks. This will make reassembly a snap.

We might look into increasing the front shock extension like you suggested. Also, did you ever call John at AFCO?

And the extra power is all for you! lol

What are you putting under there?, Something easier to keep clean, pretty and show quality? Can't imagine you'd even have many scuffs or rock chips underneath yet?

Love the changes. I really wish you weren't adding that extra horse power... :captain:

I don't know if it's "pretty" but it will be easier to clean. It's the WURTH stuff I used on the Fairlane and Track Rat. It's just black bumpy undercoat but it dries hard and you can wash it. The current Fusor stuff can't be washed and it's too soft and easily scuffs off.

The re-powdering is because David made a few changes to the rear and some areas have been cut and welded. The lower links have been chipped up from the rack arms hitting them. It just looks "un-tidy". I need to pull the stuff for the undercoat so might as well freshen it up.

Ha Steve, you have a sickness. Will it ever stop, most likely not.
Well all thats left now is for body mods. Oh crap thats what track rat is for.
Great decision on the motor. I thought a while back ago you were leaning towards the LS7 what changed your mind.
Dave

What are you going to do with old engine? Going to sell it?

"done" just isn't "fun".. lol

Yea, no mods for Penny.. I like the understated looks and OEM trim work. Several things changed my mind on the engine. I need more power for the road course and since it's not adding any weight it won't hurt on the autocross.

I will most likely sell the LS2 to help pay for the new stroker/sleeved LS3. That way I won't have to eat dog food to afford this. ;)

[olds87]

How much if I should ask?

[Matt@BOS]

It's that "While I'm here I might as well..."

The two main projects were the undercoating and the inner wheelhouses. The rest snowballed off of that. Hey, you should know all about the "snowball effect".. right? ;)

Hey, there is a difference between what we do.

Our car isn't even at version 1.0 yet. On the other hand, there seems to be a new version of Penny out more often than there is a new version of Itunes. You make me look like an amateur, at least right now (I think). It is entirely possible that I worse than you. I might even be passed the snowball phase. I now work very hard on snowball containment. My mantra is more of "while I'm here, I might as well... Stop!" I'm just horrible at it though. Have you gotten to that point yet?

[KPC67]

Steve, I am excited to see this build.
I have a LS7 with Darton sleeves. I am sure you will have yours running before me tho. It makes me feel good to see someone else doing this as well.
good luck:thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve, I am excited to see this build.
I have a LS7 with Darton sleeves. I am sure you will have yours running before me tho. It makes me feel good to see someone else doing this as well.
good luck:thumbsup:

Did you sleeve an LS7 block? I will be doing this to an LS3 block since it's stronger and less expensive.

Thanks

[KPC67]

Did you sleeve an LS7 block? I will be doing this to an LS3 block since it's stronger and less expensive.

Thanks

Yeah I bought the short block with them in it, Steve From Race Engine Development performed the machine work.

[KPC67]

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-parts-for-sale-wanted/2483625-wtb-ls2-engine.html
Steve, I also thought you might want to check this out.
I saw this over on corvetteforum.com

[Jims78elky]

The best part about Steve's penny...is that we get to see the project change and evolve..new..exciting parts,and real track testing to back what the products do or say they will do.

So many cars get built...sold..and another comes along..I like the fact that Steve is changing his car,and exploring these new parts and idea's that make the project fun and fresh..for all of us to see at first hand.

Not that we all are not changing our cars too..just nice to see a top car go through its changes..with new parts, trial and new upgrades along the way.
And with Mr Pozzi doing his magic tuning, how can anybody go wrong!

As always Steve..great work!

:thumbsup:


-Jim

[Karl Buchka]

Nice project you've got going on here.

Is there a specific reason you went with billet uprights? You could save quite a bit of weight and end up with a stronger part by going with a sheet metal weldment.

[Paladin]

Steve,

ton of questions here.
some of these are very exotic changes (zr-1 hubs) how do you know what to change, or is it just trial and error?
for instance in braking did you have data on your 60 to zero stops with the original set-up and tires? i.e what makes a bigger difference new calipers or switching to the michelins? (i.e. can the tires hold the brake torque)
Seems like your are trying to shed unsprung weight with the brake swap, and while lap times are obviously the goal, any sacrifice in streetability?

ever watch h2h on torque tv? They have had some great new vs. old comparisons at willow springs with a pro driver. Love to see penny vs. a new camaro or hpe camaro. Have you run penny there and if so, lap time?

[Paladin]

Steve,

attached is my scale weight, very similar to penny's. I have about 25 lbs. more on the front end, almost entirely due to the front bumper/valance, but going to the r-model fiberglass bumper, not the look I wanted.

Anyway, on the autocross in steady state cornering, I have alot of understeer. The IRS I am running keeps the car so planted it just plows that front end around. I am planning on going to a slightly smaller rear tire, which will allow me to take some negative camber out (currently -3 degrees) and will also be better for dragstrip launches, and lower it another 1/2 inch.

I can't run bigger front tires (limited to 225/45/17), any other ideas/tips/tricks?

thanks

[Steve1968LS2]

Good point on the short distance events. Ill wait to hear response in the future when your thrashing on them. Have you had them on long enough to determine if there street friendly.

BTW.. the DTC-30 pads rocked at the event.. We had the second best 0-60-0 ... Considering we did better than Jackass we're pretty happy.

In fact we tied the GTR even though it had AWD and ABS.. of course we had stickier tires.

Anyways, pads seem like a good balance between track and street and especially good for short durration events.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,

ton of questions here.
some of these are very exotic changes (zr-1 hubs) how do you know what to change, or is it just trial and error?
for instance in braking did you have data on your 60 to zero stops with the original set-up and tires? i.e what makes a bigger difference new calipers or switching to the michelins? (i.e. can the tires hold the brake torque)
Seems like your are trying to shed unsprung weight with the brake swap, and while lap times are obviously the goal, any sacrifice in streetability?

ever watch h2h on torque tv? They have had some great new vs. old comparisons at willow springs with a pro driver. Love to see penny vs. a new camaro or hpe camaro. Have you run penny there and if so, lap time?

A lot of trial and error.. some math. Sometimes we just know a part is better, like the ZR1 hubs, and move to them since every bit helps.

Tires make the biggest difference in stopping.. followed by pads.

I don't think I sacraficed any "streetability" by ditching the weight of the parking brake since it was never hooked up to begin with. lol -- saving all that rotating weight really helps the car get going quicker.

Sign me up for the H2H TV deal, I would love to see the results.

[Steve1968LS2]

Nice project you've got going on here.

Is there a specific reason you went with billet uprights? You could save quite a bit of weight and end up with a stronger part by going with a sheet metal weldment.


Well, these are stronger and I don't have to worry about a weld failure.. plus they are not that heavy. Another benefit was the upper ball joint and the fact that these add a full degree of camber gain. I also gained over an inch of shock travel.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,

attached is my scale weight, very similar to penny's. I have about 25 lbs. more on the front end, almost entirely due to the front bumper/valance, but going to the r-model fiberglass bumper, not the look I wanted.

Anyway, on the autocross in steady state cornering, I have alot of understeer. The IRS I am running keeps the car so planted it just plows that front end around. I am planning on going to a slightly smaller rear tire, which will allow me to take some negative camber out (currently -3 degrees) and will also be better for dragstrip launches, and lower it another 1/2 inch.

I can't run bigger front tires (limited to 225/45/17), any other ideas/tips/tricks?

thanks

Your front tires are most likely killing you.. what size are your rears?

Tomorrow we start ripping the car apart. The first thing to do is a story on swapping out the stock core support and AFCO radiator for a an aluminum one from AutoRad, along with thier HUGE crossflow radiator... We will also be transitioning to a air based Setrab type oil cooler. The AFCO in Penny now with move to the Track Rat project.

I've also started getting parts together for the new 427 sleeved LS3 engine.

We need to have her back on the road before March since I would like to run the Mojave Mile event.

[Paladin]

Steve,

I had been running the old bfg g-force kd 275/40/18's in the rear. They were not great, even for the street, and gave you zero warning at the limit.
I have heard good things about the dunlop direzza star spec so I am going to get those in a 265/35/18. The right side rubs a bit with a 275, and I want to take out some negative camber (necessary for clearance). tire wear was brutal, and lousy for drag strip launches. My car is mainly for street, otherwise I would look at teh Toyo r888. I have 480 rwhp and 441 ft lbs. to harness.
check out these H2H links:

why do the cars with better power to weight and better tires keep posting slower times???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DK-zHSqqo4http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xD2db-ZuHY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ngPGMQFtnM&feature=related

[Steve1968LS2]

Today we started tearing down.. Also decided to try out this Autorad radiator and core support. I doubt it saves weight since the radiator is WAY bigger, but it's nice and I was curious to see what's up.

As you can see the opening is much much bigger than that stock core support. This should provide extra cooling capacity.

http://i49.tinypic.com/1o69oi.jpg

Gotta break some eggs to make an omlette.. This is really just a dry run since it will all come apart, engine out and fenders off so we can do some mods to the inner fenders.

http://i46.tinypic.com/aaji3m.jpg

Here you can see the new radiator in place. There were some fitment "challenges", but nothing insurmountable. I want to talk with the company on Monday to get thier take before going into detail. I love how the radiator fits to the new core support.

http://i50.tinypic.com/10rk5ro.jpg

Another view... we're going metalwork the DSE closeout panel to work with this system since I like how it comes "into" the engine bay.

http://i50.tinypic.com/14j59cm.jpg
Oh what the hell, let's take the whole car apart.. lol.. Next to come out will be the trans, engine and all the brake plumbing.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2d14kfl.jpg

[ccracin]

Steve,

Looks like alot of fun. Question for you, did you paint the engine block and heads? I am torn on our project. Our's will be all aluminum and I'm not sure wether to paint it or not. I like the natural look, but I'm concerned about upkeep. Any thoughts? Sorry for the somewhat Hi-Jack. I just like the look you achieved. Thanks.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,

Looks like alot of fun. Question for you, did you paint the engine block and heads? I am torn on our project. Our's will be all aluminum and I'm not sure wether to paint it or not. I like the natural look, but I'm concerned about upkeep. Any thoughts? Sorry for the somewhat Hi-Jack. I just like the look you achieved. Thanks.

I just have the bare alum on the block and heads.. seems to clean up pretty easy then again I put in a new engine every year. lol

Personally I think paint is a PITA and is more likely to end up looking crappy. If I was going to do it I would clear powder the block but due to all the masking that would cost hundreds of dollars.

I say just go bare and keep up on the cleaning.. I just wash it down with soapy (DAWN) water every so often and blow it dry.

[Vegas69]

That is a killer looking set up. I may have to give autorad a call since I'm swapping radiators currently as well.

[tmadden]

Penny is on steroids!!!!! It does just keep getting better and stronger.:hail:

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,

I had been running the old bfg g-force kd 275/40/18's in the rear. They were not great, even for the street, and gave you zero warning at the limit.
I have heard good things about the dunlop direzza star spec so I am going to get those in a 265/35/18. The right side rubs a bit with a 275, and I want to take out some negative camber (necessary for clearance). tire wear was brutal, and lousy for drag strip launches. My car is mainly for street, otherwise I would look at teh Toyo r888. I have 480 rwhp and 441 ft lbs. to harness.
check out these H2H links:

why do the cars with better power to weight and better tires keep posting slower times???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DK-zHSqqo4http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xD2db-ZuHY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ngPGMQFtnM&feature=related

Because there's more to it than just power and weight.. where the weight is and how the car grips makes more difference than just the power to weight ratio.

I really like the R888 tire.. if you drive in the rain then also look at the Toyo RA1 since it has more grooves. Neither are good for snow or sub freezing temps.

If you're having push you could try stiffening up the rear to induce more oversteer.

[nvr2fst]

BTW.. the DTC-30 pads rocked at the event.. We had the second best 0-60-0 ... Considering we did better than Jackass we're pretty happy.

In fact we tied the GTR even though it had AWD and ABS.. of course we had stickier tires.

Anyways, pads seem like a good balance between track and street and especially good for short durration events.

Steve, thanks for the feedback. I seen your results posted when the event was done. Good to know. I know Mark has been down this road but did you ever consider ABS or would that hinder you in the short autoX events like Goodguys.
Inner fender mods? Going Anvil CF?

[Steve1968LS2]

That is a killer looking set up. I may have to give autorad a call since I'm swapping radiators currently as well.

It's a nice set-up.. getting the DSE closeout to fit will be a major chore and we have one fitment issue to run by them.

I like how large the surface area of the radiator is, and the fact that it's centered unlike the factory core support.

[Kendall Burleson]

How much weight did that setup lose on the nose? Will you have revalve the front shocks and change out the sway Bar?:wow: :wow:

[Vegas69]

It's got to be like 10lbs max. No way anything needs changed suspension wise. I don't want to speak for Steve but having the extra space allows him to run a air cooled oil cooler without taking such a toll on the overall cooling of the car. That's exactly why I plan to run a heat exchanger just due to a packaging problem. I really like that radiator, it looks nice.

[Steve1968LS2]

How much weight did that setup lose on the nose? Will you have revalve the front shocks and change out the sway Bar?:wow: :wow:

My guess is it's a wash.. when I take it back apart I will weigh the core supports.

Any weight saved will be taken up by the extra weight of the larger radiator and the extra fluid.

And I know you're just poking fun on the shock and sway bar deal ;)

[Steve1968LS2]

It's got to be like 10lbs max. No way anything needs changed suspension wise. I don't want to speak for Steve but having the extra space allows him to run a air cooled oil cooler without taking such a toll on the overall cooling of the car. That's exactly why I plan to run a heat exchanger just due to a packaging problem. I really like that radiator, it looks nice.

I found what DSE found.. that the water based oil cooler is good, but not as good as an air based cooler (unless you're NASCAR and running a HUGE cooler and radiator). Nevertheless, it will be fine for Track Rat. This way I will be able to run a larger cooler on the passenger's side to try and move some weight around a bit. We will pass through the new firewall using bulkhead fittings and hardline to and from the cooler.

Looking at this:
http://www.frsport.com/Setrab-Oil-Cooler-50-625-7612--6-Series-25-Row-M22-Threaded-Ports_p_15182.html

[Vegas69]

I've spent a bunch of time thinking about radiators and oil coolers and understand completely. You add a AC condensor and it get's more complex. Ron Davis has a big daddy heat exchanger that can be made part of the tank. I've yet to get them to commit to making it work in my car. I like the idea of no t stat and having room for my AC with a stock support. I've got to get it done since my new motor will be done soon and it's time to go racin.

[Steve1968LS2]

I've spent a bunch of time thinking about radiators and oil coolers and understand completely. You add a AC condensor and it get's more complex. Ron Davis has a big daddy heat exchanger that can be made part of the tank. I've yet to get them to commit to making it work in my car. I like the idea of no t stat and having room for my AC with a stock support. I've got to get it done since my new motor will be done soon and it's time to go racin.

DSE doesn't run a t-stat.. which makes me wonder how necessary it is. My cooling fans are manual so I guess I could flip them off if the oil is running cool. I guess I should talk with Kyle. The no t-stat thing was one of the main reasons for going with the water based cooler.

If I did run a t-stat I'm looking at this one...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-22-480/?image=large

[Vegas69]

I think it's important if you plan to run in cool weather. To give you an idea. My coolant temps got down to 125-130 on the way to the optima challenge this year with a high flow t stat. While I realize this is coolant, they are known for not closing accurately after opening. It's in front of the radiator and could really cool off the oil. With my old block I was going to simply run a manual valve for the oil cooler since the block was plumbed for a seperate oil cooler. I'm not sure if that's an option for you but it's not a bad idea.

[Bow Tie 67]

I was thinking real easy / cheap, blocking off the cooling fins when our great midwest weather takes a nose dive. ie: cardboard :captain:

[Steve1968LS2]

I was thinking real easy / cheap, blocking off the cooling fins when our great midwest weather takes a nose dive. ie: cardboard :captain:

I thought of that as well.. although I came up with something a bit more fancy than cardborad.. lol

My problem with this would be access. I would have to pull the DSE closeout to put it on and remove it.

What would be great would be if the remote oil filter mount had the t-stat integrated into it. That would save a bunch of plumbing.

[Kendall Burleson]

I've spent a bunch of time thinking about radiators and oil coolers and understand completely. You add a AC condensor and it get's more complex. Ron Davis has a big daddy heat exchanger that can be made part of the tank. I've yet to get them to commit to making it work in my car. I like the idea of no t stat and having room for my AC with a stock support. I've got to get it done since my new motor will be done soon and it's time to go racin.Todd are you going to try running your car in 2010 at the race with all the neat parts you have on it that you should be invited.:lateral:

[Steve1968LS2]

Todd are you going to try running your car in 2010 at the race with all the neat parts you have on it that you should be invited.:lateral:

Maybe I can get him in.. I have a "little" pull :)

[Kendall Burleson]

Maybe I can get him in.. I have a "little" pull :)I would love see that car on the track man it to nice to be sitting in the parking lot like last year.

[awr68]

Todd needs to run it this year at Optima!!

[Vegas69]

I don't want to hijack Steve's thread but I appreciate the kind words. I plan to run as many events as possible this year. Have the new enclosed trailer for out of state events. I really wasn't ready for Optima this year. I would've done OK but my car is still being sorted out on the track. I want to put my best foot forward when I get in. That means more experience behind the wheel and more time tweaking my car. It gets better everytime I race it. The new engine should help. I really didn't need more power but the weight is a huge deal. I really need some seat time and instruction on the road course. I've got one partial day under my belt. Car actually felt better on the road course than autocross but I didn't spend much time at full tilt. I've never run with my OWN kind. That's what I look forward to the most.

[gmorris]

DSE doesn't run a t-stat.. which makes me wonder how necessary it is. My cooling fans are manual so I guess I could flip them off if the oil is running cool. I guess I should talk with Kyle. The no t-stat thing was one of the main reasons for going with the water based cooler.

If I did run a t-stat I'm looking at this one...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-22-480/?image=large

I'm running that stat and like it so far. I haven't made it back to the track to really punish it but on the street the oil comes up to temp just as fast as it did without the setrab cooler and seems to level off just over the set temp rather than just climbing until I lost my nerve like it did before. The stat has huge flow passages so I din't think there is any really restriction there either. The plumbing is a bit of a pain though.

[James OLC]

I don't know if would be able to find a way to incorporate one (but I know that you are more than capable of figuring it out) but the marine 502's used to have a thermostatically controlled oil cooler that sandwiched between the block and the filter. IIRC the thermostat was set at about 220; below that the oil went straight to the filter, above that it went to the cooler first.

My Canton thermostat (the one you reference) works great but is huge - especially once you get 4 -12 lines going through it. Earls makes a much more reasonably packaged t-stat that is just slightly bigger than a deck of cards.

That being said - I don't think that you need one with the water based cooler. But I might be mistaken.

[Steve1968LS2]

I don't know if would be able to find a way to incorporate one (but I know that you are more than capable of figuring it out) but the marine 502's used to have a thermostatically controlled oil cooler that sandwiched between the block and the filter. IIRC the thermostat was set at about 220; below that the oil went straight to the filter, above that it went to the cooler first.

My Canton thermostat (the one you reference) works great but is huge - especially once you get 4 -12 lines going through it. Earls makes a much more reasonably packaged t-stat that is just slightly bigger than a deck of cards.

That being said - I don't think that you need one with the water based cooler. But I might be mistaken.

You don't need a t-stat with a water based cooler.. but I will have an air based cooler now.

The size of the Canton isn't a big deal since it will mount on the front of the core support (plenty of room). I don't like the Perma-Cool and Earls t-stats because (to me) they seem too restrictive. I read that the internals are pretty small and the reason the Canton unit is bigger it that is needs to be bigger to pass the right volume of oil.

I spoke with them today and we discussed why thier t-stat is set at 215-degrees while others are set lower (like 200 or even 180). They said they do this so that the temp is over the boiling point of water (212). This way any moisture in the oil will burn off, seemed to make sense.

Anyways, one is on the way, now to order up the Setrab.

[Steve1968LS2]

I'm running that stat and like it so far. I haven't made it back to the track to really punish it but on the street the oil comes up to temp just as fast as it did without the setrab cooler and seems to level off just over the set temp rather than just climbing until I lost my nerve like it did before. The stat has huge flow passages so I din't think there is any really restriction there either. The plumbing is a bit of a pain though.

My oil lines will now run up to the core support where they will attach to bulkheads. After that all the lines to the t-stat, the Setrab, back to the t-stat and to the bulkhead will be hard lines. It should make it all a bit neater. This will keep my engine bay neat and empty and utilize the dead space between my grill and the core support.

[Steve1968LS2]

The core support is fully in now, but there were a couple of issues that found. The nice part is that I spoke with the owner and he's making changes to future kits base on my suggestions. It's nice to see responses like this from companies.

Problem on was that the core support mount sat 3/4 or and inch too high. This means we needed a thicker spacer or a "stepped" mount. Future kits will have a way to step the mount. Not a big deal, but a PITA to fab on the spot.

Problem two was that on the LS style radiator the fill cap should be on the driver's side. In this configuration you would have a hard time running the car with the cap off (to fill, etc) since it would splash from the water pump inlet.

Like I said future ones will be changed. Other than that I love the kit. If you look at the earlier pics I posted you can really see how much bigger the opening is. When I mount my huge Setrab 925 cooler it's only going to shroud a small percent of the radiator and the increased cooling capacity should be really nice to have.

In my case we're going to move the cap ourselves. Here it is with thier optional core support closeout. I think it's pretty sweet looking, but I've gotten use to the DSE version, so we're going to fab it to work.

Also, the Autorad deal gives more clearance between the radiator fans and the water pump, so people would have an easier time with packaging an air induction system.

Here's a shot with their closeout...

http://i49.tinypic.com/29w4i0m.jpg

[camcojb]

that sure is a clean looking setup, too bad they don't make one for a 73 Vega.....................:lol: yeah, big market there........... :rofl:

Jody

[Steve1968LS2]

Finalized the Oil Cooler system:

Canton high-flow t-stat
Setrab 925 oil cooler

Cooler is like this one:
http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/part/1574/

The cooler will me mountd to bosses on the pass side of the radiator. The 10 AN lines will pass through the core support via bulkhead fitttings and go to the t-stat mounted to front side of the core support. All the lines on the front will be hard lines. This way the cooling system will be integral to the core support.

Also finalized the new engine:

440 cui LS engine
Darton MID sleeves in an LS2 block
Lunati Pro Crank = 4" stroke
4.185 Bore
Wiseco -8cc pistons
Compression should be 11.2:1 with 70 cc heads
K1 lightweght H-beam rods (6.125")
Canton oil pan

Either
235 Trick flow heads with Fast 92mm intake
or
Mast 12-degree Black Lable LS3 style heads with FAST 102mm intake

We're guessing 660 hp and right at 600 ft-lbs or torque.

[Steve1968LS2]

that sure is a clean looking setup, too bad they don't make one for a 73 Vega.....................:lol: yeah, big market there........... :rofl:

Jody

I'm sure we would wittle one up.. especially with your mad skills.. :yes:

[tobenk]

Steve the radiator support looks awesome and motor combo don't sound to bad either. :lol: By the way one of the best camaros of all time in my opinion.:thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

WOW! That's great looking Steve!

Great info on the cap etc - something many would never think about!

:thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve the radiator support looks awesome and motor combo don't sound to bad either. :lol: By the way one of the best camaros of all time in my opinion.:thumbsup:

Yea, I was really tempted to run that, but I like how the DSE panel extends into the engine bay and frames the engine. Or more like that is what I'm use to seeing.

and thanks for the compliments.. lots of NICE cars out there these days.

WOW! That's great looking Steve!

Great info on the cap etc - something many would never think about!

:thumbsup:

It was nice how Jim at Autorad listened and was open to changes. Other people might have noticed the same things but never gave feedback to the them.

[Steve1968LS2]

Hmmm.. what's that writing on the inner fender well??? :unibrow:

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
That radiator setup looks great as is, I like that better than the DSE closeout.
A separate cooler is good. I like the engine combo, should make tons of torque and weigh nearly the same as before.
David

[nvr2fst]

Hmmm.. what's that writing on the inner fender well??? :unibrow:

Looks like my initial thought I posted maybe wrong.

Steve,
Your reincarnation thread has been very informative. Your product installations, reasoning for why the change is made and what weighed out in the product selection has been doc. perfectly. But..I wouldn't except anything less coming from you. Great work so far and try not to scratch it during reassembly!

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,
That radiator setup looks great as is, I like that better than the DSE closeout.
A separate cooler is good. I like the engine combo, should make tons of torque and weigh nearly the same as before.
David

Yea, I think the MID sleeves add about 6 pounds. So, almost the same weight.

I like it better as well from a "looks fabbed" standpoint. But I'm use to the DSE part. Also, this one is trickier to remove if I need access to the oil cooler system or other part. This is because some screws go in from the bottom. With my mesh that would be a PITA.

[Bow Tie 67]

Yea, I think the MID sleeves add about 6 pounds. So, almost the same weight.

I like it better as well from a "looks fabbed" standpoint. But I'm use to the DSE part. Also, this one is trickier to remove if I need access to the oil cooler system or other part. This is because some screws go in from the bottom. With my mesh that would be a PITA.

Upgrades look nice, I agree with David on the close-outs. Maybe you can incorporate some type of Dzus fastener, after all Penny is more so on the race side of the line than street. ( that is a good thing :thumbsup: )

[buickfunnycar.com]

Looks real slick Steve...:thumbsup:

[customcam]

Leave is it as it is! lol yeah rite
Steve a bit modest on the Hp prediction of that 440?

[Steve1968LS2]

Leave is it as it is! lol yeah rite
Steve a bit modest on the Hp prediction of that 440?

Yea, so we said screw it.. let's see if we can make it a 454. lol

New plan:

Tomorrow the 402 comes out so we can re-undercoat the car.

Here's what we have so far:

Sleeved LS2 block (Darton MID)
Mast Motorsport 12-degree LS3 style heads
4.185 bore
4.125 stroke - Lunati Pro Series crank
6.125 K1 lightweight (614g) H-beam rods
Wiseco Pistons yielding about 11.5:1 compression
Comp cam on a 114 LSA.. should idle pretty smooth.
FAST 102mm LSXr intake
Ported TBW throttle body
Canton oiling system
ARP everything

That would make this a 454 aluminum small-block LS engine. Conservative estimates are 670hp and over 600 lb-ft of torque.

Weight gain, due to the sleeves, should be around 6-lbs

Just need to do a few mods to the Canton oil pan. Still doing the math on it, but it should work just fine.

[89 RS]

Sounds like that's going to be one nice engine. Very nice Steve. Are you doing an article on it too?

[Vegas69]

454, is that a big block? You're like me, pushing the limit every chance you get. I like it....:thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

Sounds like that's going to be one nice engine. Very nice Steve. Are you doing an article on it too?

Yep.. Looks like it will be in CP and most likely Engine Masters since it's a bit unique.

454, is that a big block? You're like me, pushing the limit every chance you get. I like it....:thumbsup:

More like a big small-block I guess.. It is sorta crazy what you can do these days.

[Rybar]

Yea, so we said screw it.. let's see if we can make it a 454. lol

New plan:

Tomorrow the 402 comes out so we can re-undercoat the car.

Here's what we have so far:

Sleeved LS2 block (Darton MID)
Mast Motorsport 12-degree LS3 style heads
4.185 bore
4.125 stroke - Lunati Pro Series crank
6.125 K1 lightweight (614g) H-beam rods
Wiseco Pistons yielding about 11.5:1 compression
Comp cam on a 114 LSA.. should idle pretty smooth.
FAST 102mm LSXr intake
Ported TBW throttle body
Canton oiling system
ARP everything

That would make this a 454 aluminum small-block LS engine. Conservative estimates are 670hp and over 600 lb-ft of torque.

Weight gain, due to the sleeves, should be around 6-lbs

Just need to do a few mods to the Canton oil pan. Still doing the math on it, but it should work just fine.

Very nice motor Steve, any idea what it would cost for us non-magazine guys?

[customcam]

Wow :willy:
Just Awesome

[Kendall Burleson]

Steve what size are the chamber on those heads?Titaniums valves?

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve what size are the chamber on those heads?Titaniums valves?

Stainless valves I believe.. chamber volume is 72cc. Since they are 12-degree Mast reccomends stock rockers but I will have them bushed since needle bearings make me nervous.

[Steve1968LS2]

Very nice motor Steve, any idea what it would cost for us non-magazine guys?

Let's see..

Carry the three.. add in the x..

Rough guess.. $14,000..

I'm sort of unsure of the Darton MID cost. I think it's $1,600 but the good news is that you can use a screw up block to save on that end (I bought my block for $400)

So it's not much more (or the same) as an LSX iron block.

Heads are spendy at just over $3k.. Crank is $2k.. rods are $800.. you get the idea.

I will come up with a total for you though. And no, I don't get it for free.. or even close to free.. :)

[Steve1968LS2]

We started pulling the engine/trans today, but I had to split to go do a photo shoot of Driverz Inc's Nova.

The guys were nice enough to finish up the pull, I suppose I owe them some more beer or some Carne Asada.. lol

Matt Alcala snapped a few pics.. and to think I drove it into the shop.. I'm a sick sick person.


http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo103/69MSA/IMG00010-20100116-1523.jpg

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo103/69MSA/IMG00011-20100116-1523.jpg

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo103/69MSA/IMG00012-20100116-1524.jpg

Thanks for sending me the pics Matt :cheers:

[Matt@BOS]

Sure thing. I figured you were in a hurry if you didn't have time to take pictures, because that generally isn't like you. BTW what magazine are you shooting the Nova for?

Matt

[Steve1968LS2]

Sure thing. I figured you were in a hurry if you didn't have time to take pictures, because that generally isn't like you. BTW what magazine are you shooting the Nova for?

Matt

Shot the red Nova from Driverz Inc.. it's a VERY nice '67. We shot it at El Toro along with a pro-street 71 Camaro.

I did take some pics but I had to split before the big engine yank.

Funny story, we found a butane lighter sitting on the engine right on the fuel injectors. I must of been on there since before the RTTH event when I had some wiring done (bet it was used on some shink wrap). Most likely not the best spot to leave a lighter.

And in other news:

The rear end housing has been modified and is almost ready to go to power paint. Thanks to the Bradster for doing the wicked welds on my sway bar pads. In addition to ditching the U-bolt deal we cut off the brake line tabs and will be using some sweet billet pieces made by Cris over at JCG Restorations. Going to swing by Currie and have then check the tollerances on the ends since on one side the bearing feels a bit loose and leaks a touch.

http://i47.tinypic.com/nzqgcx.jpg

[Cris@JCG]

Good to see the brake line clamps are Penny worthy!!

Maybe this hood catch might look good also!!!! :D

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/jcgrestoration/P1150024.jpg


Shot the red Nova from Driverz Inc.. it's a VERY nice '67. We shot it at El Toro along with a pro-street 71 Camaro.

I did take some pics but I had to split before the big engine yank.

Funny story, we found a butane lighter sitting on the engine right on the fuel injectors. I must of been on there since before the RTTH event when I had some wiring done (bet it was used on some shink wrap). Most likely not the best spot to leave a lighter.

And in other news:

The rear end housing has been modified and is almost ready to go to power paint. Thanks to the Bradster for doing the wicked welds on my sway bar pads. In addition to ditching the U-bolt deal we cut off the brake line tabs and will be using some sweet billet pieces made by Cris over at JCG Restorations. Going to swing by Currie and have then check the tollerances on the ends since on one side the bearing feels a bit loose and leaks a touch.

[GregWeld]

Wow -- you're really going to town Steve!! But as you know - it's a "well - as long as I'm here I might as well...."

Nice improvements on an already killer car!

:thumbsup:

[Cris@JCG]

Just an idea Steve, since you are getting a new crankshaft for the new motor why don't you get it with an LS7 snout to run the LS7 oil pump, timing chain cover, oil pan, & run an aftermarket oil tank!!!! The harmonic balancer should also work with your current drive you have?? If not just get an ATI dampner & we will machine a crank pulley for you.. If I was building an LS motor from scratch.. This how I would do it :D GM spent a good chunk of $$$ to develop this dry sump system!!

[Steve1968LS2]

Just an idea Steve, since you are getting a new crankshaft for the new motor why don't you get it with an LS7 snout to run the LS7 oil pump, timing chain cover, oil pan, & run an aftermarket oil tank!!!! The harmonic balancer should also work with your current drive you have?? If not just get an ATI dampner & we will machine a crank pulley for you.. If I was building an LS motor from scratch.. This how I would do it :D GM spent a good chunk of $$$ to develop this dry sump system!!

Because I'm a less is more guy and every pound I add to the car kills me. Plus I've had zero oil issues with my modded Canton pan, even at sustained 1.2+g left and right turns. Also, the LS7 pan won't clear my rack unless I raise the engine and that's a non-starter. :)

[Steve1968LS2]

Good to see the brake line clamps are Penny worthy!!

Maybe this hood catch might look good also!!!! :D

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/jcgrestoration/P1150024.jpg

Still have my shipping address???? lol I only see one problem. Since they are thicker where the bolts go through it might hit my DSE closeout panel. As it is I have to use rounded allen bolts and they still almost touch. Ideas?

Those are so sweet.. you're really making some nice stuff Cris. We are doing a billet guide and you should feature something very unique like this in it. I will call you about it. Get that website done! ;)

As for your brake line clamp. After seeing this I will never again weld brake line tabs to a housing. With these I can rotate and slide them to just the right spot. Here's a shot:

http://i48.tinypic.com/2nb94wx.jpg

[Cris@JCG]

I will have to see what we can do to to clear The DSE close out panel.. I have one here @ the shop..

Thanks for the compliments on the billet stuff!! Let me know when guys are doing the feature story & will get you what I have.. Now I have stop crusing the forums & get back the txt for my website.. That is my hang up with the site :)

Still have my shipping address???? lol I only see one problem. Since they are thicker where the bolts go through it might hit my DSE closeout panel. As it is I have to use rounded allen bolts and they still almost touch. Ideas?

Those are so sweet.. you're really making some nice stuff Cris. We are doing a billet guide and you should feature something very unique like this in it. I will call you about it. Get that website done! ;)

As for your brake line clamp. After seeing this I will never again weld brake line tabs to a housing. With these I can rotate and slide them to just the right spot. Here's a shot:

[eville]

where do i get some of those brake line clamps?

[Cris@JCG]

Sent you a PM.

where do i get some of those brake line clamps?

[ScotI]

where do i get some of those brake line clamps?

x2 :D .

[legend]

would adding some of the Nelson racing throttle bodies see over 700bhp on that engine spec?

[1970camaroRS]

This car is like a supermodel. Every thinks it's the sexiest thing in the world and couldn't be more perfect...but someone somewhere isn't happy with it.

[Steve1968LS2]

Got a couple of Best Of Show spy shots today of the new inner fender wells..

http://i46.tinypic.com/55hvmp.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/2eclymx.jpg

[Matt@BOS]

I snapped some photos yesterday, and was just uploading them for you in case you hadn't seen the recent work. That must have come together quickly. Here's what it looked like yesterday afternoon

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo103/69MSA/DSC_0279.jpg

Matt

[KPC67]

looks cool, what's the reasoning for this?
it doesn't look like you will get much more tire under there?

[Steve1968LS2]

looks cool, what's the reasoning for this?
it doesn't look like you will get much more tire under there?

I was having a little rubbing in one spot so this will give me a bit more clearance.

Also, for a looks standpoint the old stock fenderwells didn't line up with the new upper control arms at all.. not even close.

[waynieZ]

They look nice ,I saw the markings on them when I was there.

[Al Moreno]

Very nice Steve, I know you been wanting to do something different with the inners. I imagine you must be stoked! :thumbsup:

[70rs]

More cool stuff going on with Penny.

Steve, I really appreciate the fact that you drive the hell out of this car and keep upgrading along the way. Guys like you and Todd and several others that USE these cars keep the hobby that much more interesting for people like me.:thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

I have all my oil cooler stuff now. The main player is a Setrab 925 cooler.

The larger radiator opening will let me mount this without blocking most of the radiator. All the stuff will be hardlined from the Canton t-stat to the cooler and then to the bulkheads.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2j0bngp.jpg

[Steve1968LS2]

Funny.. this just started out as a simple project.. lol

http://i47.tinypic.com/5fi620.jpg

Right now all the old undercoating is being stripped off so the new WURTH Stoneguard can be shot on.

The rear was gone over by Currie and new ends were welded on. I also had the third member rebuilt since it was out of the car.

I'm also making progress on the new engine. It's a RHS standard deck race block with 4.155 bore and a 4.25 stroke. The rotating guts will Lunati and the heads will Mast Motorsports LS3 12-degree big bore pieces. I call it a 454+ (the plus is because it's really a 461)

The inner fenders are now ready to be final welded and then bodyworked. I held them up there and there's TONS more tire space where it's needed. Brad (the Bradenator) at BOS did a great job making my vision a reality on these.

http://i46.tinypic.com/21jbyao.jpg

[Vegas69]

Interesting you went with the over square engine....

[Steve1968LS2]

Interesting you went with the over square engine....

Wouldn't it really be an under square engine since the bore is less than the stroke?

If I do the 4.155/4.250 it equals .977 and is still considered by some to be "square" (range of .95 to 1.04) - If I could do a 4.250 bore I would. lol

I'm building another one (a 454) that's 4.185 bore and 4.125 stroke.. that's a combo I like better (bigger bore and less stroke). Now that would be and Over Square engine but it's still 1.014 and technically still "square" (but more square I guess)

BUT.. keep in mind that this block is made to go 4.250 on the stroke and due to the raised cam there's more "room". Also Wiseco is making me up a set of custom pistons. In other words we are keep all this math that makes my head hurt in mind.

Working with COMP, Lunati and Wiseco on this so I'm pretty confident it will all work out.

With the RHS block I was limited to 4.165 bore, but that's a scratch built piston unlike the 4.155. And it was either go 4.25 on the stroke or 4.125. With something this expensive I didn't think it was worth it to just end up with a 447...

I just finished a 440 (LSX iron block) build which had a perfect 4.125 bore and 4.125 stroke.. with a Fast 92 and 235 Trick Flow heads it made 660 hp and 625 lb-ft of torque. On 91 octane CA gas and 11.25:1 compression (but a big ass hyd cam)

[Vegas69]

Definitely over square...been through this whole analysis.

[Steve1968LS2]

Definitely over square...been through this whole analysis.

Over square is where the bore is larger than the stroke

An engine is described as oversquare or short-stroke if its cylinders have a greater bore diameter than its stroke length - giving a ratio value of greater than 1:1.

For example an engine which has 100 millimetres (3.94 in) bore, and 80 millimetres (3.15 in) stroke has a bore/stroke value of:

100 mm / 80 mm = 1.25:1


Since my bore is 4.165 and my stroke is 4.250 the engine is really Under Square.

An engine is described as undersquare or long-stroke if its cylinders have a smaller bore (width, diameter) than its stroke (length of piston travel) - giving a ratio value of less than 1:1.

For example an engine which has 90 millimetres (3.54 in) bore, and 120 millimetres (4.72 in) stroke has a bore/stroke value of:

90 mm / 120 mm = 0.75:1


That's from Wikipedia.. but I double checked a few places. it's under square.

But these days that's pretty common. Take the Tall Deck RHS block. The max bore is still 4.165 but you can go 4.600 on the stroke and that's WAY under square.

I'm comfortable with the .977 ratio of my bore/stroke ..

Will be interesting to see how the two builds play out and how they compare to the 1.00 square 440 I just finished.

And keep in mind.. I'm NOT and engine building expert.. I just know lots of smart people to brain pick.

[DFRESH]

Steve, not to hijack the thread, how is the trackrat project coming along? If you keep "borrowing" the parts from it to "try" out on BP we may never see the thing :lol:

You've convinced me that if you are going to buck up for a radiator, that going the AutoRad setup is the way to go--I can't believe the amount of surface area available is so large for the radiator---they are spendy, but worth it now in my opinion.

Doug

[Vegas69]

Sorry Steve, it's late and I've had a few drinks. I meant under square. It's unusual to see an undersquare engine. Very few factory engines were built this way. The slant 6 is one bullet proof instance. I'm interested to see how it works out for you.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve, not to hijack the thread, how is the trackrat project coming along? If you keep "borrowing" the parts from it to "try" out on BP we may never see the thing :lol:

You've convinced me that if you are going to buck up for a radiator, that going the AutoRad setup is the way to go--I can't believe the amount of surface area available is so large for the radiator---they are spendy, but worth it now in my opinion.

Doug

What happened to Track Rat is that BOS had it ready for paint and then I went and had the panels stretched.. now it needs to be readied for paint AGAIN.. BOS is swampped right now so we are putting off that body work until after the Del Mar show. Then we will dive back in. Should go fast since we have the drivetrain, suspension, and brakes all ready to go.

I just borrowed the CF panels. The radiator was taken from the TR project for Penny since it's a bit more expensive and more fitting BP than TR whis is SUPPOSED to be a lower $$$ project.

As for the AutoRad deal.. Yea, it's a bit more $$ but that's because of the core support. The radiator itself is priced pretty good. I had a friend get one because if figured the core support was cheaper than having hours spent making a stock one look good (welding up holes, smoothing out).

The bodywork on TR has taken a lot longer than expected.. but that's what happens and I don't want to just slap the car together.

[Steve1968LS2]

Sorry Steve, it's late and I've had a few drinks. I meant under square. It's unusual to see an undersquare engine. Very few factory engines were built this way. The slant 6 is one bullet proof instance. I'm interested to see how it works out for you.

Hey, send a few drinks over here! lol

I always mix up high and low impedence in regards to injectors..

Under Square is becomming more common, especially in LS applications where crazy long strokes are. Hell, Lunati just came out with a 4.625 stroke crank.. Obviously that's going to be WAY bigger than any possible bore size.

So I have three engines going now.. an Over Square (1.017).. and Under Square (0.977) and a Square 1.00 -- should be interesting to compare.

On the one for Penny I feel the ratio of .977 is close enough to true square as not to be an issue.

[GregWeld]

Not to jack the thread -- but in 140 characters or less.... what is the advantage in a motor that is over sq vs under??

I once read an article where they built two motors to do this comparo... big bore short stroke - and same disp with longer stroke. If I remember right - they made the same power = just at different RPMS... and the conclusion was inconclusive.

[ohcbird]

Greg-
It will depend on the breathing characteristics of the engine. The better the heads / chamber / cam are, the easier it is to go under-square.

The easy answer is that that fast acceleration & decelration (for a given RPM) of the piston will help produce more power across the band. The hard part is getting the combo right...but LS engines are almost too easy now.

Todd- Like Steve said, there are lots of US engines being produce now, especially inline engines. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but they are actually easier to produce and balance as well.

Back to your regularly scheduled Penny update...

[Vegas69]

Normally it's more low end torque and slightly less high end horsepower.

[GregWeld]

Nowhere in Steve's math did he mention ROD RATIO.... and I always thought that this was important. I've actually been thinking of de-stroking the 427 because it has such "bad" rod ratio (4.125 bore - 4.00 stroke - 6" rod)

Is this no longer an issue with the taller decks of the LSx ?

Steve --- LOVE the updates -- like Eric said - it's fun to live vicariously.

[Steve1968LS2]

Greg-
It will depend on the breathing characteristics of the engine. The better the heads / chamber / cam are, the easier it is to go under-square.

The easy answer is that that fast acceleration & decelration (for a given RPM) of the piston will help produce more power across the band. The hard part is getting the combo right...but LS engines are almost too easy now.

Todd- Like Steve said, there are lots of US engines being produce now, especially inline engines. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but they are actually easier to produce and balance as well.

Back to your regularly scheduled Penny update...

What he said.. lol

It use to be a bigger issue that it is today and typically you were better off being over-square than under. Today, with the right parts it's not such a big deal. I feel my ratio of .977 is pretty damn close to square. Imagine if you had a 4.165 bore and 4.625 stroke. Would i have ran a 4.200 crank if I could have? Yea, but they don't so I decided I would rather have more displacement rather than move to an over-square (4.165 x 4.125).

[ohcbird]

Todd-
Yes, for the same heads / cam combo & just a stroke change, that's generally true. Due to most new LS heads & 4 valve heads, that isn't necesarily the case anymore. Regardless, the engine is always about the combo rather than the resume of it's parts.

[Steve1968LS2]

Nowhere in Steve's math did he mention ROD RATIO.... and I always thought that this was important. I've actually been thinking of de-stroking the 427 because it has such "bad" rod ratio (4.125 bore - 4.00 stroke - 6" rod)

Is this no longer an issue with the taller decks of the LSx ?

Steve --- LOVE the updates -- like Eric said - it's fun to live vicariously.

It is.. but again after talking with Brian Nutter at Wiseco he feels his piston design will be good to go. My rod choices consist of one size. 6.125.. At least from the Lunati catalog that I'm dealing with.

We will see if they are right :)

Normally it's more low end torque and slightly less high end horsepower.

Yep.. and to be honest that's really goal. Personally I didn't want anything bigger than a 440, but the 454 just sounds so damn sexy.

I'm going to cam it down so that it still has a great street idle. I guess you could say that I'm going to size the cam like the engine is a 440 and the extra displacement will help smooth stuff out. I would be happy with 650/600 but after running this 440 last week I think it might be more.

[ohcbird]

A few good cubes are always agood thing.

[Vegas69]

I was considering doing an undersquare engine as well. I have a bore size of 4.280. My block will take a 4.375 stroke. Ultimately my engine builder didn't feel it was a good trade off in power vs. cost and longevity. I had to ask myself, why don't you see them in any high performance application from the factory? The only conclusion I had was longevity and warranty. I ended up with a 4.25 stroke with a 6.385 rod. Another thing is big block stuff is heavy and they are harder to turn rpm with. Adding more low end torque and less high end hp didn't make sense for me where it may very well for you. I love this stuff.

[Steve1968LS2]

A few good cubes are always agood thing.

Never met a cube I didn't like. lol

I figure if Jackass and Blue Bomber can hook up 700-800 hp then I can hook up 680.. :)

And the lack of a weight penalty is a bonus...

[Steve1968LS2]

I was considering doing an undersquare engine as well. I have a bore size of 4.280. My block will take a 4.375 stroke. Ultimately my engine builder didn't feel it was a good trade off in power vs. cost and longevity. I had to ask myself, why don't you see them in any high performance application from the factory? The only conclusion I had was longevity and warranty. I ended up with a 4.25 stroke with a 6.385 rod. Another thing is big block stuff is heavy and they are harder to turn rpm with. Adding more low end torque and less high end hp didn't make sense for me where it may very well for you. I love this stuff.

Because the factory uses inferior parts for the most part.. they certainly don't use forged cranks and all the other goodies that make a reliable under-square engine possible.

You combo was just barely under-square with a ratio of .978 ... I don't think it would have been a huge issue so long as you have good parts, especially the crank.

And you're right, there's a big difference between a big-block and an LS.. seems like you can get away with more on the LS side.

[Steve1968LS2]

Well, it doesn't feel like it but progress is being made.

The underside is scraped and the new Wurth stuff should be on there by tomorrow.

With any luck I should be picking up the rearend housing from powder this week as well, then we can put the rear back together and get her rolling again. Found that he axle tubes were pretty warped from the 3-link brackets so Currie cut off the ends and welded on new ones.. straight.

Parts are moving for the 460 cube RHS LS engine, biggest delay will be the 4.250 Lunati crank which is two weeks out. That's the only delayed part though.

Cam selected is a 247/261 .624 114 LSA stick.. Any guess as to power? :)

Should be good to go for having the car done by April.. knock on wood.

The LM clutch is over at Centerforce getting refubed (figured I might as well since it's out)

The oil cooler system is also in progress getting all hard lined up. The Setrab 925 fits perfect. This is being done at Fast Eddies Fabrication in Orange, CA.

http://i50.tinypic.com/14trero.jpg

[scherp69]

Steve...is that an autorad setup? Your car is amazing :hail: :hail: :hail:

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve...is that an autorad setup? Your car is amazing :hail: :hail: :hail:

Yea, there are more pictures earlier in the thread. Of course we're modifying it for the oil cooler deal.

The nice part is how much radiator is still uncovered even with the huge cooler.

And thanks for the compliment on the car.. it's a team effort.

[ohcbird]

Steve- are they going to put vibration isolators on the Setrab?

That's a good looking piece.

[ohcbird]

Power guesses? Hmmmmmm...need more specs (too lazy to surf the old posts at this point). My spider-senses tell me the driver is going to need to be retuned as well haha.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve- are they going to put vibration isolators on the Setrab?

That's a good looking piece.

They are there.. put them in myself today. Small pads at each of the four attachment points. Came with the Setrab mounting brackets.

Power guesses? Hmmmmmm...need more specs (too lazy to surf the old posts at this point). My spider-senses tell me the driver is going to need to be retuned as well haha.

247/261 114 cam
461 cubic inches
11.5:1 compression
Lunati 4.250 stroke crank
I-beam 6.125 rods (609 grams)
Wiseco pistons
Mast Motorsports 12-degree big bore rec port heads
FAST 102mm LS3 intake
RHS race block, standard deck, raised cam - 6-bolt
Mike Norris ported LS2 TBW throttle body

And a bunch of other stuff that don't make power.

It will most likely make more than I need.. so I'm not going to be able to just flat foot it like I did before. I'm thinking I'm also going to have to run short autocrosses like Goodguys in second gear.

[bentfab]

Well, it doesn't feel like it but progress is being made.

The underside is scraped and the new Wurth stuff should be on there by tomorrow.

With any luck I should be picking up the rearend housing from powder this week as well, then we can put the rear back together and get her rolling again. Found that he axle tubes were pretty warped from the 3-link brackets so Currie cut off the ends and welded on new ones.. straight.

Parts are moving for the 460 cube RHS LS engine, biggest delay will be the 4.250 Lunati crank which is two weeks out. That's the only delayed part though.

Cam selected is a 247/261 .624 114 LSA stick.. Any guess as to power? :)

Should be good to go for having the car done by April.. knock on wood.

The LM clutch is over at Centerforce getting refubed (figured I might as well since it's out)

The oil cooler system is also in progress getting all hard lined up. The Setrab 925 fits perfect. This is being done at Fast Eddies Fabrication in Orange, CA.

http://i50.tinypic.com/14trero.jpg

Do I smell compition ? :willy:

[Steve1968LS2]

Do I smell compition ? :willy:

No.. Not really.. Fast Eddies is a hardcore fab shop and my go to guy for welding aluminum.

Since he was welding the tabs on for the mounts I thought I would have him bend the lines up front since he can bend stuff that big. It was more of a time saver since he's a few miles away and you're.. well.. farther. lol

The plan is to get her running and then take her to you for the gas tank trunk lines and a couple very hard lines in the engine bay.

You really need to move down to Orange County.. :yes:

[Vegas69]

I bet it makes North of 700hp and 640-650lbft easy. Why a 114lsa with 11.5:1?

[bentfab]

No.. Not really.. Fast Eddies is a hardcore fab shop and my go to guy for welding aluminum.

Since he was welding the tabs on for the mounts I thought I would have him bend the lines up front since he can bend stuff that big. It was more of a time saver since he's a few miles away and you're.. well.. farther. lol

The plan is to get her running and then take her to you for the gas tank trunk lines and a couple very hard lines in the engine bay.

You really need to move down to Orange County.. :yes:

Good. I know who Fast Eddie is very talented and professional.

No! No! No! I think you need to move to the S.F.V. Besides how many times do you go and see Cris at J.C.G. He's even further:lol:

[Steve1968LS2]

Good. I know who Fast Eddie is very talented and professional.

No! No! No! I think you need to move to the S.F.V. Besides how many times do you go and see Cris at J.C.G. He's even further:lol:

What's funny about Eddie is that I took him my '67 back in the 80s for cage work.. he's been around forever.

And yea, driving to JCG is a nightmare.. LA sucks so bad. Took me three hours last time and he's only 90 miles away. My new rule is to try and only go there on weekends :)

The fuel/vent lines in my trunk need your assitance badly..

[Steve1968LS2]

I bet it makes North of 700hp and 640-650lbft easy. Why a 114lsa with 11.5:1?

I was leaning toward 112 LSA, but Craig over at COMP thought idle quality would suffer and the additional overlap would make the whole deal less street friendly. He did think it would generate more low and mid-range power though.

In the end I'm going to end up with more power than I really need so I erred on the side of idle and drivability.

For compression I was really shooting for 11.1 or 11.2 to one, but this is how it's working out with the pistons and the 72cc Mast heads. We might adjust it down a touch with the head gasket, but 11.5:1 isn't high, even for out crappy CA pump gas.

Horace at Mast was thinking it would be pushing 700hp.. now I just need to be able to hook it up. Also, while 700 is a good "magazine number" I would be happy with 650-670hp and a bad ass super flat torque curve.

[Vegas69]

I agree, we are both pushing our chassis's to the max. I felt like my 491/497 at the tires was really managable across the board. I have similar expectations. 650-675hp and 625 ftlbs. Your making a vast improvment in your low end torque with identical stroke to me. I was able to hook up that 497 at 3800 with R888's in second gear matted during autocross. I felt it was about the limit however. A little loose but biting hard. On 200 tread wear tires I'm not to sure. You're going to gain some pull out of those slow corners and I'm going to gain 500-700 rpm to avoid shifting into 3rd until 85 or so. We'll put all that power to use on the road course for sure. :thumbsup: Crazy you can run 11.5:1 on a 114 with 91 octane. Do you run a knock sensor? I'd error on the side caution. Compression doesn't gain that much power.

[GregWeld]

Everyone I've talked to has said you can run up to a full point MORE compression on an EFI motor... over a carb.

Factory boys are running 12:1's and getting away with it...

[Vegas69]

Really just trying to educate myself more on the LSX builds. I know aluminum heads allow about a point more but my point was, is the knock sensor retarding timing to much if you push the limit? Why does EFI allow that much more compression?

[GregWeld]

Hopefully Steve jumps in here and tells us what the motorheads think...

But I've always been told that aluminum heads are good for about a point - and EFI is good for another one... and of course all of this is "STATIC" compression because the real number that nobody mentions is CYLINDER PRESSURE... and that is controlled (somewhat) by the cam...

[Vegas69]

Without hijacking Steve's thread, a 114 will build more cylinder pressure than a 112 or 110. I imagine it's ok due to a pretty radical camshaft for a LSX. Steve will fill us in...

[tyoneal]

Steve:

I was just reading of all the work you are doing to Penny. I really appreciate you running such a good and thorough thread for everyone I know it must take a ton of time. Penny is looking just great and I for one am learning a lot from your build.

I'll try and do the same for everyone when Lateral-1 starts it's new facelift.

Take care and keep up the good work.

Regards,

Ty O'Neal

[Jr]

Steve,
Did you say that the auto rad gave you extra clearance between the motor and the radiator itself? If so, how much space did you gain?

[Bow Tie 67]

Really just trying to educate myself more on the LSX builds. I know aluminum heads allow about a point more but my point was, is the knock sensor retarding timing to much if you push the limit? Why does EFI allow that much more compression?


Precise fuel controll when tuned correctly.

[GregWeld]

Precise fuel controll when tuned correctly.

I don't want to jack Steves thread -- but this whole "compression" and fuel management thing brings up some thoughts about the LSx motors....

I'm a pyro.... and as such understand a bit about "compressing" explosive chemicals...

I think that we all know "more" compression is a problem and that for the problems it creates - the power increase is actually minimal... Which got me thinking about why the factory LS motors use what we used to think was an unworkable compression ratio on todays pump gas...

But they seem to make great power - AND use LESS fuel to do it - and they're using leaner mixtures (except at WOT). So when you compress LESS fuel/air - you get a little more "bang" for your buck... So.... I'm thinking they're on to something here.... (and they employ built in safeguards). You take less fuel - atomize it really well - get more flow into the cylinder with better heads - then you compress the hell out of it... and you're making some power while sipping gas. The gas sipping is partly due to the leaner A/F they can run (coming back to the EFI issue)... The control with knock sensors... AND let's not forget the 6 speeds and tall gears... (low rpms per mile). BUT you have power when you want it because of great heads - and high compression ratios... then toss in some 12:5 AF at WOT....

Just thinking out loud here....

[Payton King]

old steel heads. You can run a full point more on aluminum than you can steel.

Steve, you car is finally heading back in the right direction. Can't wait to hear how the new motor runs.

Are you bringing it back this way for RTTH?

[Al Moreno]

I love ready this thread. Steve, it so neat to see how you keep improving on Penny.

Let me know next time you need a photo shoot Bitch, LOL. :thumbsup:

[legend]

with regards to undersquare engines, high revs and longevity
Audi have been building engines to that spec for ages, and they last well into 200k miles

[platinumgta]

Car is just amazing Steve....Congrats on the promotion! Still interested in the magazine stickers when ya get some time. Keep up the good work!

[Bow Tie 67]

I don't want to jack Steves thread -- but this whole "compression" and fuel management thing brings up some thoughts about the LSx motors....

I'm a pyro.... and as such understand a bit about "compressing" explosive chemicals...

I think that we all know "more" compression is a problem and that for the problems it creates - the power increase is actually minimal... Which got me thinking about why the factory LS motors use what we used to think was an unworkable compression ratio on todays pump gas...

But they seem to make great power - AND use LESS fuel to do it - and they're using leaner mixtures (except at WOT). So when you compress LESS fuel/air - you get a little more "bang" for your buck... So.... I'm thinking they're on to something here.... (and they employ built in safeguards). You take less fuel - atomize it really well - get more flow into the cylinder with better heads - then you compress the hell out of it... and you're making some power while sipping gas. The gas sipping is partly due to the leaner A/F they can run (coming back to the EFI issue)... The control with knock sensors... AND let's not forget the 6 speeds and tall gears... (low rpms per mile). BUT you have power when you want it because of great heads - and high compression ratios... then toss in some 12:5 AF at WOT....

Just thinking out loud here....

Greg,

I'm in the process of reading two books by Greg Banish ( Designing and Tuning High-Performance Fuel Injection Systems , and Engine Management: Advanced Tuning ). Both are excellent and go into some depth on how far engineers go to calculate fuel delivery / control, spark ect .......

I love my LS, I know I'm breaking the law. It's to easy to produce excellent power from these engines.

[chevyhector]

Hey what a small world, My car is at Fast Eddies Fab also !:cheers:

Well, it doesn't feel like it but progress is being made.

The underside is scraped and the new Wurth stuff should be on there by tomorrow.

With any luck I should be picking up the rearend housing from powder this week as well, then we can put the rear back together and get her rolling again. Found that he axle tubes were pretty warped from the 3-link brackets so Currie cut off the ends and welded on new ones.. straight.

Parts are moving for the 460 cube RHS LS engine, biggest delay will be the 4.250 Lunati crank which is two weeks out. That's the only delayed part though.

Cam selected is a 247/261 .624 114 LSA stick.. Any guess as to power? :)

Should be good to go for having the car done by April.. knock on wood.

The LM clutch is over at Centerforce getting refubed (figured I might as well since it's out)

The oil cooler system is also in progress getting all hard lined up. The Setrab 925 fits perfect. This is being done at Fast Eddies Fabrication in Orange, CA.

http://i50.tinypic.com/14trero.jpg

[Rod P]

Whats up Rupp you advertising vinyl strips now??
grand sport hash marks (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/67-68-69-Camaro-Grand-Sport-Hash-Mark-Stripes-Stripe_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem414c90c5abQQitem Z280457430443QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fA ccessories)
:willy:

[FETorino]

I have all my oil cooler stuff now. The main player is a Setrab 925 cooler.

The larger radiator opening will let me mount this without blocking most of the radiator. All the stuff will be hardlined from the Canton t-stat to the cooler and then to the bulkheads.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2j0bngp.jpg

I have a couple questions.
How did you choose the cooler size?
Did you consider using one of Setrabs fan packs?

I was looking at the 920 fanpack combo thinking I could gain the oil cooling without direct air flow that would block my radiator.

[Steve1968LS2]

Hey what a small world, My car is at Fast Eddies Fab also !:cheers:

Which car is it?

[Steve1968LS2]

I have a couple questions.
How did you choose the cooler size?
Did you consider using one of Setrabs fan packs?

I was looking at the 920 fanpack combo thinking I could gain the oil cooling without direct air flow that would block my radiator.

Biggest one that would fit and talked with the Setrab rep.

Yea, but given how large my radiator is and the cooler sized we determined it wasn't necessary.

The new Autorad radiator is so large that I doubt this matters much. lol

[Steve1968LS2]

Update time:

Front valance has been welded up.. ditched the license plate holes and closed up all the spoiler holes since I'm going to be running a new gizmo from bottomfeeder air that pushes the spoiler back, like on Jackass.

bottomfeeder air deal: http://www.techafx.com/backgrounder.php

http://i44.tinypic.com/u6jw1.jpg

The oil cooler plumbing was finished over at Fast Eddies. It's all stainless tubing and XRP fittings. I will have to paint the blue ones black since that's all they had. Now the core support can go off to power paint.

http://i39.tinypic.com/11vlkzc.jpg

The bottom side has been scraped, seam sealed and re-shot with Wurth Stoneguard.. came out nice and should be easier to clean. The newly powerpainted, rebuilt and STRAIGHT housing is back under the car. Had new bearings put on the axles so everything is fresh and new.

http://i39.tinypic.com/nm1btv.jpg

Working on the engines as we speak.. been so swamped between this and work that I hardly have time to come online.. add in that our office is moving and it's been nuts.

Now to get her done by March 31st.. :nilly:

[David Pozzi]

I vote for it being superior combustion and air flow.
Do you have 91 octane gas like we do in California?
David

I don't want to jack Steves thread -- but this whole "compression" and fuel management thing brings up some thoughts about the LSx motors....

I'm a pyro.... and as such understand a bit about "compressing" explosive chemicals...

I think that we all know "more" compression is a problem and that for the problems it creates - the power increase is actually minimal... Which got me thinking about why the factory LS motors use what we used to think was an unworkable compression ratio on todays pump gas...

But they seem to make great power - AND use LESS fuel to do it - and they're using leaner mixtures (except at WOT). So when you compress LESS fuel/air - you get a little more "bang" for your buck... So.... I'm thinking they're on to something here.... (and they employ built in safeguards). You take less fuel - atomize it really well - get more flow into the cylinder with better heads - then you compress the hell out of it... and you're making some power while sipping gas. The gas sipping is partly due to the leaner A/F they can run (coming back to the EFI issue)... The control with knock sensors... AND let's not forget the 6 speeds and tall gears... (low rpms per mile). BUT you have power when you want it because of great heads - and high compression ratios... then toss in some 12:5 AF at WOT....

Just thinking out loud here....

[chevyhector]

Its the black 68 RS, they are mocking up a rear wing and a front lower spoiler, for Spectre's R&D.

Which car is it?

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
I noticed in your photo, the watts is up one hole from where we had it before. It needs to be in the second hole up from the bottom.
Top trailing link of the 3 link was what we discussed on the phone, (at least that was what I was talking about, it was in the middle hole, but can be tried in the top hole, that's where OLC link is.
David

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,
I noticed in your photo, the watts is up one hole from where we had it before. It needs to be in the second hole up from the bottom.
Top trailing link of the 3 link was what we discussed on the phone, (at least that was what I was talking about, it was in the middle hole, but can be tried in the top hole, that's where OLC link is.
David

The third link can't run in the upper location. It jacks up the pinion angle and the bar can't get short enough to compensate.

I thought it was in the third hole up, not the second?

Here's a shot when it was at your shop:

http://i44.tinypic.com/qns506.jpg

[Steve1968LS2]

Its the black 68 RS, they are mocking up a rear wing and a front lower spoiler, for Spectre's R&D.

Shoot me some info on the car to [email protected] and I will get it in the next issue of the magazine. I shot it when I was there for the f-body garage section :)

[chevyhector]

Info? what do you need. History or tech info? What magazine are you speaking of ?

Shoot me some info on the car to [email protected] and I will get it in the next issue of the magazine. I shot it when I was there for the f-body garage section :)

[Steve1968LS2]

Info? what do you need. History or tech info? What magazine are you speaking of ?

How you got the car.. what you've done.. what want to do.. what you're having done at Fast Eddies. Like the stuff you would send in for a Readers Rides section of a magazine. A couple of paragraphs would be fine.

For Camaro Performers Magazine.. where I pretend to work. lol

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
Here's a pic from when I relocated the shocks. The 2nd hole up was where the pivot was, we tried the 3rd hole before the rear bar was put on, then went back to the 2nd hole. 4th hole had fuel filter interference problems.

We have OLC on the 3rd hole and it works well, but you would need to soften the rear bar a little to compensate for the extra roll stiffness created by the higher rear roll center. Here's another pic of the rear axle at full bump and lean.
David

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,
Here's a pic from when I relocated the shocks. The 2nd hole up was where the pivot was, we tried the 3rd hole before the rear bar was put on, then went back to the 2nd hole. 4th hole had fuel filter interference problems.

We have OLC on the 3rd hole and it works well, but you would need to soften the rear bar a little to compensate for the extra roll stiffness created by the higher rear roll center. Here's another pic of the rear axle at full bump and lean.
David

I guess you're right.. I will drop it down tomorrow when I'm re-installing the fuel cell.

Oh, we installed the new 275-lb rear springs (instead of 310). Should we leave the sway bar as is or move it back one notch stiffer like it was before Optima?

[chevyhector]

Hey Steve, PM sent to your email address. Thanks again.


How you got the car.. what you've done.. what want to do.. what you're having done at Fast Eddies. Like the stuff you would send in for a Readers Rides section of a magazine. A couple of paragraphs would be fine.

For Camaro Performers Magazine.. where I pretend to work. lol

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
Leave the bar where it was, the spring rate change makes very little difference on balance compared to a sway bar.
I'd like to try the watts higher some time, but it will require softening the rear bar.
David

[Steve1968LS2]

Got a little carried away boring out the LS2 block.. DOH!

http://i41.tinypic.com/116rna1.jpg

[David Pozzi]

Now that's what I call
BORED OUT!

[DFRESH]

Looks like they lightly honed it to clean it up.

[Jr]

Is Penny going to be ready to run come the first week of April? I can't wait to hear this beast on the road course! :thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

Is Penny going to be ready to run come the first week of April? I can't wait to hear this beast on the road course! :thumbsup:

Schedual:

Tommorow: Paint firewall, inners, lower valance
Friday: finish line hone, replace cam bearings, drop off pistons (that arrive tomorrow)
Saturday: color sand and buff painted parts
Monday: finish hone block, hone rods to piston pins
Tuesday: balance rotating assembley
Wednesday: remember we forgot something and get it
Thursday: build engine
Friday: dyno engine
Saturday-Tuesday: install engine, fire it up, start installing sheetmetal
Wednesday: finishing touches, buff and polish
Thursday April 1st - chassis dyno tune
Friday: race

So see.. there's plenty of time.. :_paranoid

[GregWeld]

Gosh Steve.... When do you have time to write all those great stories?? :rofl:

See ya there!

[tones2SS]

Now that's what I call
BORED OUT!

lollllllll..........:lol: :thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

Gosh Steve.... When do you have time to write all those great stories?? :rofl:

See ya there!

10:07pm to 11:18pm each evening.. I have to type fast... :yes:

[Vegas69]

Ouch...:_paranoid

[monza]

Schedual:

Tommorow: Paint firewall, inners, lower valance
Friday: finish line hone, replace cam bearings, drop off pistons (that arrive tomorrow)
Saturday: color sand and buff painted parts
Monday: finish hone block, hone rods to piston pins
Tuesday: balance rotating assembley
Wednesday: remember we forgot something and get it
Thursday: build engine
Friday: dyno engine
Saturday-Tuesday: install engine, fire it up, start installing sheetmetal
Wednesday: finishing touches, buff and polish
Thursday April 1st - chassis dyno tune
Friday: race

So see.. there's plenty of time.. :_paranoid

Wow... now thats Hot Rodding!!!:woot:

[GrabberGT]

Wow... now thats Hot Rodding!!!:woot:


Ummmm. He forgot the beer. :unibrow:

[Rybar]

Got a little carried away boring out the LS2 block.. DOH!

http://i41.tinypic.com/116rna1.jpg

Is that seriously your new block?? :_paranoid

[Steve1968LS2]

Is that seriously your new block?? :_paranoid

Well, new to me block.. it had a screwed up cylinder wall so we honed it out bit.. maybe too much? lol

The new Darton MID sleeves are now in place and the block is all happy again.

Ummmm. He forgot the beer. :unibrow:

Trust me.. the guys at Best Of Show NEVER let me forget the beer.. :cheers:

[KPC67]

Steve, I may have missed it so here it goes. Who is doing the machining?

[James OLC]

10:07pm to 11:18pm each evening.. I have to type fast... :yes:

So when do you return emails? LOL

Can't wait to see itcome together again... again (?)

:D

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve, I may have missed it so here it goes. Who is doing the machining?

The main work (install Darton sleeves, dowel main caps, deck, deck for oil pan, rough hone, rod/piston pin hone, notch for rod clearance.. was done here:

www.raceenginedevelopment.com

Steve REALLY knows his stuff and when it comes to putting in sleeves you want someone as meticulous as possible.. that's why they have a bad rep sometimes.. poor installation. Finished dech height was 9.235" which will yield a compression ratio of 11.3:1

The line hone and finish hone is being done at Turn Key Engine Supply.

[Steve1968LS2]

So when do you return emails? LOL

Can't wait to see itcome together again... again (?)

:D

Yea, I know.. been on the road everyday until today.. tomorrow will be even worse.

Call me tomorrow or I will call you :)

[KPC67]

The main work (install Darton sleeves, dowel main caps, deck, deck for oil pan, rough hone, rod/piston pin hone, notch for rod clearance.. was done here:

www.raceenginedevelopment.com

Steve REALLY knows his stuff and when it comes to putting in sleeves you want someone as meticulous as possible.. that's why they have a bad rep sometimes.. poor installation. Finished dech height was 9.235" which will yield a compression ratio of 11.3:1

The line hone and finish hone is being done at Turn Key Engine Supply.

Actually Steve did the Machining on my block as well, I have a ls7 with darton sleeves. I was just curious.

[customcam]

Nothing but good about RED
Can i ask what was the total cost?

[98ssnova]

Got a little carried away boring out the LS2 block.. DOH!

http://i41.tinypic.com/116rna1.jpg

Thanks Steve this is my new screen saver