FAST XFI tuning question

[67ragtp]

Heres my scenario, Im driving out to pocono for the good guys event early this morning its about 50 degrees out might have been in the 40s never had this car out for a long haul. just local cruises, but it was tuned by a professional tuner on a dyno with a eddy brake and suppose to be dialed in for cruise/WOT/cold start and all that stuff. Its a 427 mitchell sb with 42 lb injectors on a sigle plane with a fairly mild hyd flat tappet. So the 100 mile cruise up there although cold was flawless not a hicup. Noticed that my water temps were barely 165(big RD radiator and cold out).

The ride home its a bit warmer but not much maybe 55 degrees but the water temp at times would be between 165 and 180 after about 50 miles at between 2000 an 2300 rpm cruising in 5 th gear at around 70mph it would periodically stumble. It was like a jerk in the engine some times heavy and sometimes light. Like a hiccup. So Ive got the wife in the passenger seat and we pull out the lap top and plug it in. As the hiccups are occuring every so often we are monitoring were the foot ball is in the VE fuel table. So we increase those numbers from 34 to 36 around 52kpa then we go over to the A/F ratio map and change those numbers from 14.7 to 14.3. Im thinking Im adding a bit more fuel and this is a lean stumble but it really doesn't do anything with these changes. I remember getting this type of stumble on a very hot day about a year ago when I jumped on a higway. My wife said the actual a/f ratio was averaging 14.5 to 14.7 with moments as low as 13.8 and as high as a 15

Could my under hood temps be causing this and how do you tune it out? I just have a feeling the hotter it is outside the worse this will be, any suggestions?

Thanks Rich

[GregWeld]

Rich --

I'd take it back to the tuner and have him try to duplicate your issue.

My 427 small block runs an Imagine Injection 8 stack --- and at that cruise speed I'm running 13.8 A/F. The 8 stack seems to need a bit richer A/F - or so it seems.

The VE you adjusted is the most important function -- once that is "set" correctly -- then you can play with A/F and the ECU will just make that A/F happen.

You didn't mention your TIMING -- and you could be seeing a timing issue right there? Too much advance might give you a hiccup. The new heads etc tend to take LESS timing than in the old days. But you're description was to paraphrase - light load - cruise... so I'm only mentioning timing because you didn't give a number for that area.

Now -- I've increased my thermostat to a 195 degree, up from a 180 -- and have the fans on a Spal PWM (pulse width modulated) controller... and I'm cruising around 200 degrees. I like more heat - because with the forged pistons -- I want a bit more sealing (expansion). I'm running Amsoil 15/40 Synthetic.

[GregWeld]

I'd also check all your plug wires -- look for any of them that "at speed" might be being blown against a header and have burned enough to short. It doesn't take much!

You asked about under hood temps... and you should have an IAT - Intake Air Temp - sensor... which really isn't that important of a sensor - but would accommodate / allow for - intake air temps.

Also -- the MAP sensor is critical... the signal to this should come straight from a source with no "t's" etc....

[camcojb]

can you monitor fuel pressure?

Jody

[67ragtp]

timing is 36 deg in the 2k to 2.4k @52kpa and 38 deg in the same rpm range at 46kpa.

I run those heavy heat isulating 6 inch booties at the end of each plug wire and there dressed securely.

The map sensor is one leg of a "Y" Tee connected to the back of the throttlebody, the other leg goes up the the vacuum reference port on the fuel regulator.

What I dont get, is why was it so perfect for the trip up and so different on the trip back.

Thanks Rich

[67ragtp]

Jody- short awnser no, the fuel pressure guage is under the hood connected to the regulator. What are you thinking Jody, fuel pressure fluctuation with engine temp?

[camcojb]

Jody- short awnser no, the fuel pressure guage is under the hood connected to the regulator. What are you thinking Jody, fuel pressure fluctuation with engine temp?
yeah, that can happen easily with the way some are plumbed, and usually are heat and distance run related. If the pressure is moving around at all, like the pump is cavitating from the fuel heating up in the tank, it's an immediate hiccup with efi. It's just part of the tuning process, and you need to be able to verify the basics at the time a problem occurs. Datalogging is great, but if the fuel pressure is moving it throws a wrench in the works.

When this was happening was the a/f moving around at all? Did you notice that the fuel pump was louder?

Jody

[67ragtp]

While observing the actual A/F from the xfi dashboard it always seems to move around a bit up and down a couple tenths never rock solid on one number. We didnt catch it since it happens so sporadically(datalog would be nice)

I cant hear the fuel pump making any noise especially over the exhaust. What do you suggest for fuel pressure monitoring in the car, this is what the plumbing looks like.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/Picture081.jpg

[camcojb]

a datalog of the problem would be nice, would at least give you a direction to go. I have an 8' extension pressure line I use for temporary checking of fuel pressure that I can run into the car, but I usually have a gauge in the dash. I know, you're not supposed to run fuel into the car................ :P but just as a quick check I've never had an issue.

Jody

[ProdigyCustoms]

That regulator is super close to the water pump. a very hot area of the eninge. I would get a electric fuel pressure gauge and if you dont ant to see it all the time, put it in the console for troulbe readings when needed. It is nice to have in a no crank, or fluctuation situation like this.

[GregWeld]

67rag --

Jody / Frank ....

This is the same motor - with the dyno sheet posted earlier in the thread - that has (IMHO) VERY lean conditions - especially at peak torque and WOT... they were in the high 13's and low 14's at peak torque....

So if he's 'running' lean - it could be a lean miss - even with low load conditions - and he said he's observing A/F's on the dashboard at 14.5's and even as high as 15. I'm ASSuming that they observed these readings while cruising at the "trouble" point. I'm thinking if he's seeing 15 A/F readings -- he's feeling a lean miss...

If his VE's are close -- I wonder if he couldn't change the "BLOCK" of A/F at his trouble spot -- to something like 13.4 or 13.6 etc -- while driving === and see if the miss/hiccup goes away. If it does - then it's just a matter of finding the leanest A/F ratio he can run at that Map point... and run with it. If it's still there -- then we know it's not a lean miss -- and he can start working on more "complicated" solutions?

[GregWeld]

OOOPPPPSSSSS ----

Wrong - my bad -- one guys is 61 Ragtop and this guy is 67Rag ---- so sorry --- I was going to reference the post with the dyno sheet -- and realized I had the wrong car.

However..... I'll stand by my statement of trying to fatten the fuel a bit and see if there is a lean miss - given his observed 15 A/F readings

[camcojb]

OOOPPPPSSSSS ----

Wrong - my bad -- one guys is 61 Ragtop and this guy is 67Rag ---- so sorry --- I was going to reference the post with the dyno sheet -- and realized I had the wrong car.

However..... I'll stand by my statement of trying to fatten the fuel a bit and see if there is a lean miss - given his observed 15 A/F readings
true, but at a cruise MOST combos can be leaner than 14.7:1, however not all so it's a legitimate thing to test. Of course, if the pressure is fluttering you can try changing the a/f or v/e tables and cannot cure it as the pressure is moving all around.

Jody

[GregWeld]

Jody,

Ah ha -- Got it.

So how steady should the needle in the gauge be when running? With the pump pulsing - my gauge vibrates a lot - but my gauge is in the line not in the regulator.

[waynieZ]

I was reading my install instructions for my XFI and you can connect a sensor directly to the ECU . It has wires for sensors built in.
I don't know squat I'm just learning but I hope this helps . Wayne

This connector houses the 8 analog inputs that can be used for things such as fuel pressure sensor, oil pressure sensor, EGT probes, etc. An Analog Auxiliary input harness kit (part # 30-1402) is available from FASTä.

Pin A – AAUX1, blue/gray (C12)

Pin B – AAUX2, gray (C13)

Pin C – AAUX3, purple (C14)

Pin D – AAUX4, light green (C15)

Pin E – AAUX5, yellow/black (C16)

Pin F – AAUX6, blue (C17)

Pin G – AAUX7, brown/white (C18)

Pin H – AAUX8, white (C19)

Pin K – Analog return, black (C11)

2.1.20 AUX SHAFT

This connector is for the auxiliary shaft sensor input circuit. The FASTä VSS and auxiliary shaft harness kit (part # 30-1403)will supply you with the harness, sensor, and magnets to monitor things such as turbo speed and torque converter/clutch slippage.

[67ragtp]

Thanks guys, I guess I will pick up the FAST fuel pressure sender kit(301408), this way I can dat log the pressure and A/F ratio while it occurs.

If the pressure is fluctuating, any Idea what the solution would be, should I move the regulator to the firewall?

Thanks Rich

[camcojb]

Thanks guys, I guess I will pick up the FAST fuel pressure sender kit(301408), this way I can dat log the pressure and A/F ratio while it occurs.

If the pressure is fluctuating, any Idea what the solution would be, should I move the regulator to the firewall?

Thanks Rich
relocating the regulator may be an option, wait and see if the fuel pressure is steady or not. Did you try richening the tuning in the area that it occured in?

Jody

[67ragtp]

Well we bumped up those areas in the v/e table by 2 numbers and brought the a/f ratio map in those areas from 14.7 to 14.3 and it didnt seem to help. That should have added a bit more fuel(I think). I was a bit nervous about making a big number change in the v/e table. If I raise the v/e table numbers will the air fuel ratio automatically richen up or does the A/f map while closed loop automatically compensate to hold that A/F ratio. Should I really change the numbers alot?

[GregWeld]

I hope Jody will add to this -- but VE's are the efficiency of the engine at a particular MAP point... once the VE is "on" -- then you should leave that alone and just change the A/F ratio that you want to run at that spot. Check your O2 sensor readings -- and if the motor is 'putting out' the A/F ratio that you've set and it's not adding/subtracting more than say 5% -- then I'd just leave the VE where it is.

I have Accel -- so it's hard for me to tell you what your screens are... but the Accel has a 'screen' that is similar (I think) to the Fast system - where you can see a scale of what the O2 sensor is doing.... and if the VE is on the money - the O2 sensor is doing 'little'. That would mean the VE would be right on... If the O2 sensor is adding and subtracting 10 or more % - then that should be corrected first. Once the VE is on - then you should be able to change the A/F ratio and the ECU will just simply figure that ratio out and that's what the engine will get.

Does that make sense? Ideally -- you'd want the VE table so well set - that the O2 sensor is just along for the ride. That is not always possible of course... but if the VE tables were perfect - you wouldn't even need an O2 sensor.

[camcojb]

I hope Jody will add to this -- but VE's are the efficiency of the engine at a particular MAP point... once the VE is "on" -- then you should leave that alone and just change the A/F ratio that you want to run at that spot. Check your O2 sensor readings -- and if the motor is 'putting out' the A/F ratio that you've set and it's not adding/subtracting more than say 5% -- then I'd just leave the VE where it is.

I have Accel -- so it's hard for me to tell you what your screens are... but the Accel has a 'screen' that is similar (I think) to the Fast system - where you can see a scale of what the O2 sensor is doing.... and if the VE is on the money - the O2 sensor is doing 'little'. That would mean the VE would be right on... If the O2 sensor is adding and subtracting 10 or more % - then that should be corrected first. Once the VE is on - then you should be able to change the A/F ratio and the ECU will just simply figure that ratio out and that's what the engine will get.

Does that make sense? Ideally -- you'd want the VE table so well set - that the O2 sensor is just along for the ride. That is not always possible of course... but if the VE tables were perfect - you wouldn't even need an O2 sensor.
getting the VE's right with the O2's working as little as possible is the goal. But if you change the a/f desired at a particular range the VE will also change to keep it ideal. I treat the VE table like jet sizes, larger numbers are richer and smaller are leaner, so if you change your a/f table you'll want to dial in the VE table as well.

In closed loop the computer will compensate by adding or subracting fuel to reach you desired a/f. You can limit how much it adds or subtracts in the tuning software, usually most aftermarket systems have a max limit of 25% +/-. That means if your VE table is within 25% of the ideal number to reach your desired a/f number, then the computer will automatically add/subtract to get you there. Your job as the tuner is to get you there without a lot of computer intervention, so it still has room to add/subtract fuel due to varying conditions like temps, baro changes, etc.

Jody

[GregWeld]

Jody --

I was trying to get him to understand the VE --- get that close --- then leave that alone and fatten up the A/F... figuring that going from 14.3 to say 13.8 wouldn't "disrupt" the VE much.

I personally like to not make too many changes in too many tables - when trying to sort out a problem. Since he's happy with the tune - except just this one area he described... I was kind of thinking that if his VE is okay - then he could just change the one table (A/F) and see if that's the issue (a lean miss?).
Rather than messing up the VE table AND the A/F table too... if you get my reasoning?

I agree - that if - lets say he fattened the A/F to some point - and the miss went away... then he could go back and make sure his VE was accurate?

I might be wrong here - so I'm glad you chimed in.

I actually like working in my A/F tables and VE tables with the O2 in open loop... and when I'm seeing A/F's that match my desired A/F's with no correction - then I switch it back to closed loop... but I didn't want to complicate matter for him either.

[camcojb]

Jody --

I was trying to get him to understand the VE --- get that close --- then leave that alone and fatten up the A/F... figuring that going from 14.3 to say 13.8 wouldn't "disrupt" the VE much.

I personally like to not make too many changes in too many tables - when trying to sort out a problem. Since he's happy with the tune - except just this one area he described... I was kind of thinking that if his VE is okay - then he could just change the one table (A/F) and see if that's the issue (a lean miss?).
Rather than messing up the VE table AND the A/F table too... if you get my reasoning?

I agree - that if - lets say he fattened the A/F to some point - and the miss went away... then he could go back and make sure his VE was accurate?

I might be wrong here - so I'm glad you chimed in.

I actually like working in my A/F tables and VE tables with the O2 in open loop... and when I'm seeing A/F's that match my desired A/F's with no correction - then I switch it back to closed loop... but I didn't want to complicate matter for him either.

you're right, assuming he has enough correction set up in the software he could simply adjust the a/f and let the competer adjust the ve to get there and see if it solves his issue.

Jody

[67ragtp]

I appreciate all the input from you guys, I ordered the fuel pressure sender kit from FAST today and will hook it up and head to the highway this weekend. This way I can data log whats happening with A/F ratio vs fuel pressure and look at all the paremeters, once I have this data I will let you guys know.

The closed loop correction limits at the area(52to 58kpa-2.0k-2.4k rpm, light cruise) that IM having problems is -25% and +22%

Thanks for all the help, more to come- Rich

[67ragtp]

Well I installed the fuel pressure sender and hooked it up to the ecu. Seems accurate, the regulator is vacuum referenced so my idle pressure is right around 40psi. If I pull the hose off the regulator it goes up to 44-45psi.

I had the opportunity to get it out on the highway for a solid 1 hour of highway time and data logged two 30 min sessions. Its at least 15 to 20 degrees(70F) warmer out than it was when the stumbles were occuring during last weeks criuse(52F). I let it idle in my driveway for 10 to 15 min hood closed to get it really warmed up before we hit the highway. Were cruising at 2200 rpm and at around 22 minutes into the first cruise we feel a very slight stumble and thats it the second 30min never felt a thing. So I look at the data around that time and I dont see anything major. The average fuel pressure is between 36 and 40 psi the actual A/F is around 14.5. I noticed the fuel pressure tracks the KPA graph very closely, I imagine this due to the vacuum reference. When I roll out of the throttle and rpm comes down getting off the highway the kpa goes down significantly(18kpa- 36psi) as does the fuel pressure. I really thought the stumbles would happen more frequently since it was warmer out but it didnt. Does the colder air make it much leaner? What do you guys think?

Thanks Rich

[awr68]

FWIW, I really enjoy reading this type of thread...I always learn something if not lots!!

Rich, you and the boys will figure it out!! :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Rich,

Okay -- Jody will correct me on this... but there is no reason at all to have the vacuum reference on the fuel regulator. That application is only for boost reference. But - if it was tuned with the vac applied - it should be okay. There's just no reason to have it. However, DO NOT plug the vacuum port of the regulator. It needs to be open to atmosphere.

I've been told that the IAT (Intake Air Temps) have very little to do with the actual references used in the ECU... I've been told this by at least 3 different tuners... but then - they could all be wrong too. Since I have 8 stack EFI - my IAT sensor is just kind of "hanging" between a couple of the stacks back at the rear of the engine. I've put it in a couple of places - and it doesn't seem to make any difference in anything.

Since your 'issue' seems to be so intermittent... I think I might be looking for an electrical draw. Maybe the voltage drops when something goes on? Causing a momentary blip in the ECU/sensor voltages.

I'd also be looking for a possible "hole" in the VE or A/F map - where your foot (TPS or MAP) just drops into this hole. If you have 3D visual on your system - look to see the junction at the perceived RPMs/Map signal (like 2200 rpm and 45kpa -- or wherever you think this fault happens) and see if there is a dip in the map or a "mountain" right around there...

Last thing I can come up with to check on - the voltage to the Fuel pump... I'm assuming you're running it off a relay.... and that it has a great ground system... and that it's not dropping voltage momentarily when your fans kick on - or the stereo kicks on - or the A/C compressor goes on etc.

I'm assuming also that you're using a ONE WIRE type alternator charging system (with no points style voltage regulator in the system) and that the alternator is capable of handling the total loads placed on it (i.e., the amp draw has been added up for all your systems and that the alternator is capable of supporting them all).

LAST... there has been some discussion about faulty MSD systems. Can't remember where this thread was - but there was an issue with them heating up and breaking down. One guy was icing his down for awhile until he sent it back for a factory look see... I just don't remember the issue or the outcome.

[GregWeld]

Rich,

I might add that I also think the cruise temps you mentioned (in your first post) could be part of the problem. Your first post mentions (proudly!) that your engine temps were around 165 degrees (if I remember right) and this could be causing the fuel in the intake to not stay atomized... and might help explain why - today - with the warmer air temps - your problem wasn't happening as much.

I raised my thermostat to 195 degree version. EVERYTHING works better now. The pistons (forged) seal better - I use less oil - and the motor just purrs... I also have a 427 small block. New fuel injected motors are running 200 degrees plus at operating temps. This is due in part to emissions (I think) - but I also think it helps with fuel injection.

Just a thought is all...

[67ragtp]

For what its worth, monitoring battery voltage in the data logs only one tenth of change from 13.5 13.6 occured. I do run a relay to the fuel pump and the grounds are real good. I tied the whole car together with 4 10guage multistrand wires lugged into a 4 guage lug terminals and mounted them everywhere. The fuel pump pulls power through isolated 8 guage wires directly from the battery back to the terminals on the relay in the back of the car.

The log did show an average of 175 deg of coolant temp. At that temperature if Im running a 180 tstat isn't it closed. The water temp had to be close to 10 degrees colder last week.

[GregWeld]

For what its worth, monitoring battery voltage in the data logs only one tenth of change from 13.5 13.6 occured. I do run a relay to the fuel pump and the grounds are real good. I tied the whole car together with 4 10guage multistrand wires lugged into a 4 guage lug terminals and mounted them everywhere. The fuel pump pulls power through isolated 8 guage wires directly from the battery back to the terminals on the relay in the back of the car.

The log did show an average of 175 deg of coolant temp. At that temperature if Im running a 180 tstat isn't it closed. The water temp had to be close to 10 degrees colder last week.


Rich,

Grounds and pump seem fine! Good job.

I'd love to hear what some of the more knowledgeable folks here think of the water temps. Yes - at 175 your thermostat would be closed. That is still a very COLD temp to be running - especially with forged pistons... they love some heat. And it just might explain the stumble... but I'm just guessing here now anyway.

[wedged]

what does the ignition system consist of ? What are you using to trigger the XFI crank signal ? cam signal ? where are the pick ups located ?


where is your coolant temp sensor for the efi located ?
do you have a temp guage also ? what does it read and where is it's sensor ?

[67ragtp]

FAST Dual sync distributor/MSD 6a/MSD blaster HVC(blue body)

Coolant sensor is front of the manifold under thermostat, ECU matches the guage. The one in the foreground is the ecu(black and white wire)
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/Picture435.jpg

Holy cow - I was looking all over for that piece of rubber hose sitting at the bottom of the manifold HUH -Rich

[wedged]

Ok, the dual sync probably rules out over heating magnets getting weak and causing a bad signal. I planned on using my Mallory distributor as a cam sensor and a homemade crank trigger to get the crank signal. The rare earth magnets I put into the damper were too small and when they got hot, I'd loose the signal. It took me a while to figure out what was happening - magnets get weaker as they get hotter who knew . I haven't yet replaced the magnets, so I'm just using the distributor for a crank signal.

I'm going to guess you've got a thermostat stuck open - either jammed with something or just failed. Is that the cause of the stumble ? IDK, but I'm guessing you will let us know !

[GregWeld]

Wedged -

He does seem to running "too cool" IMHO... and ECU's use ECT (engine coolant temp) for a LOT of control of fueling etc... So, too cold could cause him some 'errant' issues.

Thermostats don't usually fail "open" unless he has that type.. there is a type that fails open. I'm wondering if his thermostat is running within it's operating range... i.e., 175 degrees actual reading for a 180 thermostat seems within range? But I do think it's a bit cool for the application....

RICH -- Nice storage place by the way. I keep rubber hose there all the time... it keeps it soft and pliable - well - until it's been heat cycled a few times - then it can get dried up and a bit brittle. <grin>

[GregWeld]

Rich --

I'd forgotten about this - but one time I had an errant "stumble" - but it was at any time - any place... I finally found it was one of the connections at the distributor - the "clip" on the weather pack connector wasn't clipped - it looked like it was but just wasn't quite. Once fully engaged the problem went away. Also had a bad Dual Sync one time - something with the circuit board - replaced it and have had total reliability ever since. That was very early on in the Accel EFI years (something like 8 or 9 years ago at least). They used to have too small of a wire harness coming out of them (too small and too stiff too!) but they've since changed that.

[64duece]

I'd leave the tune alone, to me sounds like a poor connection or possible ignition issue. You can hit the wires with a quick mist of water from a spray bottle. That should atleast rule out an errant issue there. Night time usally works best to see cross-firing etc. Sometimes a cracked plug can do the same thing.

As Greg pointed out, I'd double check the connections in the distributor and injector harness. Usually a misfire or stumble should show itself in the O2 log. If your not seeing it, maybe you need to look to the opposite bank for possible issues.

[67ragtp]

Changed my plugs today and then took a peek inside the cap. Why does the inside of my distributor look like its been living below sea level. The screws to get the rotor off were actually furry, and the distributor plate completely rusted . This thing is a couple years old with about 500 miles. Im thinking the level of moisture inside the cap has to be very high. Wonder if this is causing my miss?

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/Picture453.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/Picture452.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/Picture449.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/Picture447.jpg

Rich

[waynieZ]

Wow thats in tuff shape. That would definately cause problems. I don't know if its all of your trouble but might be big part of it.
Rich do you have a Batery disconnect on your car ? It almost looks like electrollises on a boat.

[67ragtp]

Wayne- no disconnect, but I did probe around with my DVM and theres no voltage at all on the primary side of the coil when the key is off. And there's no current draw off my battery with key off either.

The black cap in the pic that came with the fast dual sync distributor does not have a vent in it. I wonder if thats part of the problem. I just installed a new msd cap with a vent, it seems to be running well in the garage but havent had a chance to get it out. I switched sparkplugs from accel 416 to NGK FR5 , I hope the heat ranges are pretty close, I noticed the white portion is protruding out a little more than the accels. The accel spark plug also has a screw on terminal end and it always annoyed me that no matter how tight you make them they always loosen up.

[waynieZ]

Maybe the weather will be better tomorrow to take a ride and check it.

[GregWeld]

Wow buddy! That's nasty and MOST CERTAINLY would/could cause your issues!!

Glad you found that "scank" even if it wasn't the problem!! That is a problem in the making!

[67ragtp]

Question is Why? And is there any chance FAST will replace it. It has no miles on it, 2 years old and the car is stored in a heated/ air conditioned garage. When ever I run the car it is always brought up to operating temperature for at least 20 to 30 min +.

[GregWeld]

Ahhhhhhhhh..... the $64 question.

You bought it 2 years ago --- it might have been in stock for another year -- making it 3 years "old" --- and maybe the first year was in a high humidity location...

I'd certainly ASK about a warranty replacement - or maybe from where you bought it... but if I was the factory - or dealer... I'm not sure I'd stand behind it at this point -- 2 years is a long time... and you'd have a hard time proving you didn't let it get that way during the build... but it never hurts to ask --- and honey gets more than you know sometimes.
:wow:

[wedged]

hmmm.... very interesting. I've found the same corrosion problem with an MSD distributor with an older MSD cap with aluminum lugs and no vent. The replacement cap i got had brass lugs and a vent. The steel reluctor also had corrosion on it. I sprayed everything under the cap & the inside of the cap with WD-40 before I put it on. Haven't checked it in a while and haven't driven much either so I can't give any results.

[waynieZ]

Any updates ?

[67ragtp]

Well- I shot the pics off to Matt(tech) at FAST and I dont think they want to know me. I still cant believe how much rust particles were in that cap. I swapped in an msd rotor and a vented msd cap. It seems to run good, havent taken it out on a long haul yet but we had it out last sunday, felt crisp.

Im gonna have to disassemble the whole distributor and either paint it or plate it. If the top looks like that can you imagine what the bottom looks like. Im sure lots of rust fell into the lower area of the distributor.

This lack of quality should be embarassing to FAST. If anyone knows of a direct replacement distributor for this junk, please give me the name of the company. I would like to pitch this one in the trash. :mad:

Rich

[GregWeld]

Rich --

I wonder if you couldn't just blow it out (taken out of the car of course) with some compressed air -- and then shoot it with some WD40 -- let that "dry"... it is for water displacement - and does "dry". The WD40 might put a protective barrier on the metal parts (looks like the advance weights are rusted a bit)... toss in a new rotor and a new cap.. and have a happy distributor?

I usually drill (do NOT use a twist drill for this - use a "step drill") a small 1/4" hole just behind the #1 stud in the cap. This "vent" does a couple of things - it lets you check with a timing light on the top of the cap... shows you exactly where the rotor is in relation to the "timing" (rotor firing on #1) so you can "phase" your rotor (if your distributor allows that - it should for EFI)... and it also gives an exit to vent the "static" out of the cap. This "static" is why they went to the bigger cap - ala the GM HEI style... There's another name for the static - but damned if I can think of it right now. MSD even sells a "vented" cap for "performance" applications.

[64duece]

Glad to hear you've found a probable culprit.

Re-check the MSD cap to see how well it fits "snug" to the distributor vs the FAST unit. Also make sure you don't see it "walking" on the distributor base when running/revving the engine. I've seen this happen with MSD/FAST when used together.

[67ragtp]

Thanks Dennis- As a matter of fact I wasn't happy with the fit , the cap is keyed but the spring loaded hooks on the msd cap that hold the cap down felt a bit weak. I could see how its possible for it to pop up and walk. Its no where near the clamping force of the original cap.

Any suggestions on how to secure it better? Any mods that can be done?

Rich

[64duece]

The MSD isn't a snug fit. We didn't mod anything but, decided the FAST cap was better and replaced it with another one of theirs.

[67ragtp]

Cleaned up the distributor the best I could and running with the msd cap and rotor for now. The engine seems to be running real crisp. Got it out for a long blast. No sense in vendor bashing, the pics speak for them selves.

Not to many weeks left here on the east coast to get the car out, the winters moving in. Thanks to all you guys for helping me out, really appreciate it. :thumbsup: .

Thanks again Rich

[GregWeld]

Glad you found the issue....

Chalk up the "fixing parts" as part of the hot rod world...

I've hardly ever had a part that fit the way I wanted - or the first time - or that worked etc.

Friday - I was installing power windows in this 55 Chevy project I'm building for my buddy. They're the type that you use the stock window crank on - so they're really just a "momentary switch" with a return to neutral. They're like $99 EACH... so I fab a mount - got the window guts all installed ... wire up the switch just like it says to -- NO WORKIE. So scratch my head - check the instructions - yep that's all good - check the power to the switch - good - make the window go up and down with a tool that I have to supply 12Vs -- yep -- window works just like it should -- check my wiring again - hook it back up - NO WORKIE... Remove the switch - get the Fluke out - do a continuity check - get continuous continuity (3 pins on switch - A is continuous to B - which is 12V + C is ground) between A and B - activate switch with the handle - and it should disconnect A from B(12V+) - and apply 12V- from Pin C. Since there are two switches in the handle (one for up and one for down) these little micro switches need to "reverse polarity" - so either supply 12V+ to one wire to the motor - and supply 12V- to the other wire to the motor (the motor is a 2 wire motor - grounded thru the case).... BUT try as I might - no way am I getting ANYTHING out of PIN C... SO now I have to take this switch all apart -- and figure out what's wrong -- well - the eccentric has two flat spots on it - and those flat spots are what OPEN the switch (switches for this application are "normally closed")... so I have to pull the eccentric out and "flat" the spots some more until they'll let the switch open... NOW --- ALL the previous makes little difference and I only added it to show how much work I had to do to figure out what the problem was -- and then figure out a solution. You buy a part -- hope it works - when it doesn't - you have to reverse engineer the dang thing to figure out what it's SUPPOSED TO DO - then figure out how to make it work -- OR send it back and hope the replacement (after you wait a week or two) works...

I never get mad at this kind of stuff -- I just figure it's part of "hot rodding" and in fact -- my buddies and I all just count on having to "hot rod" any parts we get.
:lol:

[70rs]

Greg,
I am coming to your house when it's time to reverse engineer my hot rod parts. Now if I can get you to reverse engineer my wife and figure that out I would be truly impressed!:rofl:

[R67Chevelle]

Greg,
I am coming to your house when it's time to reverse engineer my hot rod parts. Now if I can get you to reverse engineer my wife and figure that out I would be truly impressed!:rofl:

Greg..... What he said... my wife too... If you can reverse engineer wives:hail: you would be the richest man in this country....:lol:

Blessings,
AMS

[GregWeld]

Greg..... What he said... my wife too... If you can reverse engineer wives:hail: you would be the richest man in this country....:lol:

Blessings,
AMS

Tell ya what -- We've been together since she was 14 and I was 18... and we've been married for 30 years this November -- and I haven't the foggiest clue about how she works!!!

[waynieZ]

Same here Greg. Welcome to my world.

[John S]

Hi Guys, I know I got here late, Rich sent me a Pm a while back on the other site but I have been off line for a while with some physical problems. Rich sent me the PM because I run a similar setup and he know I have had nothing but trouble with my FAST dist.
I am seriously considering going to a crank trigger with a different dist on my engine.

FWIW the interior of my dist was in worse shape then Rich's, I disassembled it, sand blasted and powder coated it. I believe the the corrosion is actually from the OZONE created by the electrical corona of the spark. I deal with this all the time at my work and OZONE is very corrosive.

Rich, I'll contact you soon.

[67ragtp]

Hey John,

Hope your feeling better. I was astonished at how quickly and how deep the corrosion penetrated the different metals in the distributor. Ive heard about ozone formed from lightning. I imagine similar discharge can occur inside the distributor cap, especially if there is enough fluid in the environment.

Thanks Rich

[John S]

Thanks Rich, I ended up with torn ligaments in the muscles that run from my neck to shoulder. It's been very inconvenient.
Not to hijack this thread or to turn it into a bashing session but I am extremely disappointed in my FAST parts. Although the XFI does seem to operate correctly it is not as user friendly as they would have you believe and their customer service has gone to trash. I can never get through to Dave or Justin and it takes days if not a week or longer to get a return call from them. For the money we spent with them I would expect better service.
As far as the dual sync dist goes both you and I got some of the first ones shipped. Probably close to the first 5. I wonder if they have made any improvements since we got ours? I've tried to question them on who actually makes the housing but they will not disclose their mfg. and lastly as you and others have seen getting a cap that fits snug without going back to FAST seems impossible. Even with the index I can move my cap about 1/16" either direction and it has no clamping force whatsoever.

So like you, once I am healed up and able to work on the car once again getting rid of that dist is a top priority. I have considered going to a crank trigger at a minimum and possibly coil packs to get rid of the dist all together. I have also read lately that Accell has come out with their own dual sync dist but I have not looked into it at all yet.

[camcojb]

I have also read lately that Accell has come out with their own dual sync dist but I have not looked into it at all yet.
Accel has had a dual synch for years, I had one several years ago. I could not make it work correctly and went back to the tried and true MSD billet and non-sequential bank to bank firing.

I've heard more issues with the dual synchs than any other distributor setup. They are a great idea, but seem hard or confusing to get properly phased. Mine actually turned out to be defective as per Accel, they replaced it with another defective one, and I gave up............. :yes:

Jody

[GregWeld]

Accel has had a dual synch for years, I had one several years ago. I could not make it work correctly and went back to the tried and true MSD billet and non-sequential bank to bank firing.

I've heard more issues with the dual synchs than any other distributor setup. They are a great idea, but seem hard or confusing to get properly phased. Mine actually turned out to be defective as per Accel, they replaced it with another defective one, and I gave up............. :yes:

Jody


I agree (edited out "concur" I don't use words like that - what the hell was I thinking?) -- Dual Sync is a "problem".... I'm on #3.... but am still using it -- and running sequential and everything seems to be working so far.

Laid it down while working on something - had the cap end down a bit - some oil ran down and got on the board - big no no! Took me a couple days to figure that 'issue' out! Once cleaned up - no problem - but it was one of those things that you couldn't 'see'... and just lucky I found it!

[John S]

Ok, So obviously Me and Rich are not the only ones that have had problems with Dual Sync distributors.
What are our options?
As I said I was considering going to a crank trigger (my original choice before I got talked into the dual sync) or even looking into a LS style coil over plug setup. I do know that FAST sells a controller for this type of system but there are a few other issues to work out.


What to do about the oil pump drive?
How can you dress it up a bit on a 1st gen 23* engine

On # 2 I ask before I have not seen anything that makes the coil packs look decent. But I do admit I have not looked into it very deeply yet.

Any suggestions?

[GregWeld]

Try an Accel dual sync distributor??

[John S]

I'm tired of "trying" things hoping they will work. I really do not have the money to throw around on something that "may work" and I have read of others having problems with the accel dual sync as well.
Sorry if I sound a bit frustrated but like many others I've got boxes of parts sitting in the garage that did not work for one reason or another and at this point (and age) I would like to be able to enjoy driving my car without worrying if something like the distributor is going to fail again after no more then a couple of hundred miles.

[67ragtp]

John,

I really cant see myself going to a coil on plug conversion by the time you add up the cost of external boxes and coils and crank triggers it just aint worth it. Dont have any clue how you would get a cam sensor in there to run sequential. This system has cost a ton already, got to cut my loses now.

If I understand your problem corrrectly it was predominantly mechanical, and you were able to resolve it with some design change. The real question is, is the electronics reliable? I have considered purchasing another one and tearing it down to the housing and possibly welding ears on it to bolt down the cap and adressing the issue you had as well. Maybe even keep the one in the motor now as a back up.

Im shocked that msd has not come out with a distributor like the one we have only better.

Rich

[wedged]

here and idea: pull the crank damper off, have it index drilled for insertion of rare earth magnets, make a crank trigger pick up mounting bracket, cut off all but one of the reluctor teeth in the distributor. Now you have a crank signal and a cam signal. You could also just use a trigger wheel and a pick up.

I had partially done this on my 440 with XFI- I did not modify the distributor. I was testing the crank trigger to make sure it worked ok. It did not. The magnets i used were too small and would loose power when hot. I switched the wires back to the distributor for the crank signal for now. At some point I will put in larger magnets or add an aftermarket trigger wheel.

[John S]

Not sure if that will work with the FAST Dual sync, the pickup is a hall effect and runs 8 crank magnets and 1 cam magnet in a molded plastic housing.

[GregWeld]

So here's the answer you're looking for -- YOU DO NOT need a dual sync style distributor if you run BATCH FIRE. You only need a dual sync distributor for running SEQUENTIAL.

That help??

How's that for a simple solution? Just junk the dual sync - and run a good old fashioned MSD.. Just make sure you're running Batch Fire, and you tune accordingly.

[wedged]

I'm running sequential with no cam signal. I decided to do this to not have big spikes in pressure from batch fire. I have no idea if it makes a real difference.

[GregWeld]

I'm running sequential with no cam signal. I decided to do this to not have big spikes in pressure from batch fire. I have no idea if it makes a real difference.


I was just trying to answer the original question - which was - how to get rid of the dual sync distributor. And the easiest way for him to do that - is to just run a "normal" distributor and run batch fire. Unless he's trying to maximize fuel milage - or trying to pass emissions etc - there's no reason to HAVE to run sequential. His beef is with the dual sync. So my answer is a simple, straight forward, cost effective way, which is what I think he was looking for.


:cheers:

[Pantera EFI]

I have been using my OPD with a 48-2 target for YEARS.

The one Hall sensor will provide for sequential coil AND injector operation, "Gear Down".

Those that fit a Degree Based (720) EMS can also benefit with one injection event in each cylinder WITHOUT a cam sensor.

There are some EMS that can "find" engine phase without a Cam (phase) input, my EMS can do this work.
This is done for safety reasons, though I do support that feature. (INDEX input)

Lance

[GregWeld]

I have been using my OPD with a 48-2 target for YEARS.

The one Hall sensor will provide for sequential coil AND injector operation, "Gear Down".

Those that fit a Degree Based (720) EMS can also benefit with one injection event in each cylinder WITHOUT a cam sensor.

There are some EMS that can "find" engine phase without a Cam (phase) input, my EMS can do this work.
This is done for safety reasons, though I do support that feature. (INDEX input)

Lance

Lance --

Your response might be helpful - if it wasn't total gobbledegook...

Most of us aren't EFI engineers... So I'm guessing that about 1 in 100 on here would have a clue what you just posted.

How about reposting the info in terms people can understand and use??


:rofl: :rofl:

[ccracin]

Lance --

Your response might be helpful - if it wasn't total gobbledegook...

Most of us aren't EFI engineers... So I'm guessing that about 1 in 100 on here would have a clue what you just posted.

How about reposting the info in terms people can understand and use??


:rofl: :rofl:

What, you don't understand? This all boils down to "I can do it, just give me a call". LOL or 220 - 221 whatever it takes! (If you are up on your Mr. Mom movie quotes) LOL

I agree, can you try again for the rest of us? :lol: :thumbsup:

[wedged]

OPD- oil pump drive.
EMS- engine managment system.

He's using a toothed wheel on the OPD to create a signal that that locates TDC #1 , or similar, to let the EMS know exactly where in the cycle the engine is. It's not just one magnet, but multiple teeth so the resolution is better. The ability to use this type of signal varies by EMS. To the best of my knowledge, XFI can't use this type of signal. A few that can are Pantera, Simple Digital Systems, Haltech, Megasquirt and Motec- there's probably more I can't think of.

[ccracin]

OPD- oil pump drive.
EMS- engine managment system.

He's using a toothed wheel on the OPD to create a signal that that locates TDC #1 , or similar, to let the EMS know exactly where in the cycle the engine is. It's not just one magnet, but multiple teeth so the resolution is better. The ability to use this type of signal varies by EMS. To the best of my knowledge, XFI can't use this type of signal. A few that can are Pantera, Simple Digital Systems, Haltech, Megasquirt and Motec- there's probably more I can't think of.

Ahhhhhhhhh, that helps. Thanks very much. More than one way to skin a cat.

[GregWeld]

Yeah -- Okay -- Sure...

I'll refer to my original post advising him to just run a simple MSD or equivalent distributor and run BATCH FIRE rather than sequential... after
all... he was looking for a COST EFFECTIVE way to fix his "dual sync" issue..
Sometimes -- SIMPLE is good.


:rofl: :rofl:

[wedged]

Greg, no one is disagreeing with what you said. In fact, what I said about using a crank signal only and running sequential to prevent fuel pressure spikes has the total cost of nothing vs. batch. It's just a setting in xfi and I'm using a standard Mallory electronic distributor, nothing fancy. I'm glad other systems and options are being brought up, maybe we'll learn something. I hope Pantera posts more , I've read a number of his posts on efi sites.

[Pantera EFI]

Costs are important, you could acquire the 48-2 target/Hall separately, then fit those items into your distributor.

The XFI could be "upgraded" to accept the Gear Down target.

We may be the largest manufacturer of ITB kits for V-8 engines.

These items effect the "tune-up" to a great extent with "stack" injection.
1. The Injection Instant (start of injection) needs to coincide with the point of maximum air flow into the port at low injector duty cycle. (390-450 degrees ATDC)
The '882 EMS then will advance that point similar to ignition timing, then for more fuel (PW increase) we delay the closing of the injector.
When this is achieved with your EMS calibration, low speed response will be GREATLY improved.
2. The fuel regulator BORO (air) pressure reference should be connect to the manifold, if NOT, then the BORO correction needs to be inverted NPC vs PPC.
3. The spark energy needs to be greater with longer duration, NO Multiple Spark Discharge (a lot of little sparks with gaps in between)
No one can argue that eight coils will provide more energy into the cylinder than one coil for all eight cylinders.

Lance

[67ragtp]

I got a chance to pull the distributor out of the engine, to break it down. Thought I would share my findings and some mods I did to make it more reliable.

First thing I did was press out the drift pin that retains the distributor drive gear and pul the shaft out.
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/Picture074.jpg
I found the crimp at the top of the distributor shaft that holds the rotor mounting plate was able to spin back and forth about 5 degrees, not good!
So A few tig tacks did the job
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/Picture084.jpg
After removing the magnet holder and its indexing key, I relized this plastic key can easily strip out of the key way in the shaft. Since mine was a decent fit I simply cleaned it and added som armstrong A-12 epoxy to insure its not going anywhere
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/Picture073-1.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/Picture075.jpg
I cleaned up all the rust and re painted. The loose fitting msd cap was the final step. I machined an alluminum ring to fit over a step on the outside of the housing, drilled a tapped it for 8-32 and dropped some cap screws down to squeeze it up tight. It fit real nice. And the cap is super tight now.
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/Picture093.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/Picture099.jpg
Dropped it back in to the engine, unfortunatly its snowing out so I cant test it but I think it should be more reliable now.

Rich

[waynieZ]

That looks sweet Rich it should all stay tight now. Thats what I like to see get home and right back to work. lol

[John S]

Nice fix Rich. I just recently bought a small mill and I've been wanting to get a rotary table which may be just what I need since I do not think I can bore a hole large enough for the ring.

Pay particular attention to your third picture. That is the key that sheared off of my distributor and caused all kinds of grief. Our fix was to slide the collar over a short piece of 1/2" dia. aluminum rod. Chuck it into the vise and then drill it. We centered the drill on the joint between the collar and shaft then drilled through the length of the collar. I do not remember the size of the drill bit but it's diameter equaled the diameter of the key slot on the dist shaft. We then installed the collar on the shaft and used a piece of stainless wire of the correct size to locate the collar properly and epoxied it in place.
When I pull my Dist to make the ring for the cap I'll dis-assemble it and take pictures if you want.

[67ragtp]

Thanks John- I really layed the epoxy in there, my key and key way were a very nice snug fit so I dont think a lot of epoxy stayed around the shaft. It looks like it got pushed out the top and married the whole assy to the under side of the rotor mounting plate. Its pretty perminent now.

Rich

[TurboNova]

I'm running sequential with no cam signal. I decided to do this to not have big spikes in pressure from batch fire. I have no idea if it makes a real difference.

Leaving the ECU in sequential mode with no cam signal with fire the injectors at random times and not where they need to run. The ECU will default to a random bank to bank mode.

[TurboNova]

For sequential on an Domestic EFI engine and XFI I usually use a MSD crank trigger 3/16" or Fast crank trigger 1/16" and mod a MSD billet distributor. It has a much better clean signal than any dual sync and is very easy to install.

The XIM coil on plug works great, I have changed over several of them on big block chevys and it really will wake up an engine. LS1 coils are the norm and work very well. It is a proven setup so there are no worries.

There was some good and bad info in this thread, I will try to be available as much as possible for any FAST, Accel or Big Stuff 3 tech or tuning questions.

[wedged]

Leaving the ECU in sequential mode with no cam signal with fire the injectors at random times and not where they need to run. The ECU will default to a random bank to bank mode.

At what point does it default ? The LED's are always flashing sequentially when I look at the box, up to the point of RPM being too high to to see the sequence.

[67ragtp]

Brian,

can you tell me what kind of mods need to be done to the distributor to run sequential? How come know makes a cam sensor distributor so you dont have to mod one? If I converted it over to crank trigger will all the parameter in my timing table need to be changed and re-tuned?

Thanks for the info - Rich

[camcojb]

Brian,

can you tell me what kind of mods need to be done to the distributor to run sequential? How come know makes a cam sensor distributor so you dont have to mod one? If I converted it over to crank trigger will all the parameter in my timing table need to be changed and re-tuned?

Thanks for the info - Rich
that's the purpose of the dual synch distributors, one to give a spark signal and the second for the sequential fuel injection. Thing is, I have seen more failures and problems getting them set up right with the Accel and other dual synchs I think a standard MSD or similar dist and a crank trigger is the way to go.

You will not have to change the timing tables when adding the second signal, it would be used to have the injectors fire in firing order instead of batch or bank to bank firing. The crank signal would still be used for spark.

Changing to sequential may require minor tweaking to the tune, but nothing major if at all.

Jody

[GregWeld]

For about $900 you can ditch the Dual Sync distributor or cam signal altogether... by going to the Multiport EZ-EFI kit. That's what I'm doing.

Of course, that will be batch fired - but sequential is all about emissions over power or drivability.

As soon as my motor is done - I'll post up some engine dyno time from start up of this system to final. It should be interesting given the 8 stack EFI I'm running.

[67ragtp]

Jody - I think you may have mis understood me. I understand that the cam and crank signal come through the dual sync, which is what I currently run. My curiosity lies in the mods that are needed to a standard billet distributor to turn it into a cam sensor only, and why wouldnt fast sell it that way since it seems to be more common to have a crank triggers. Im thinking major surgery needs to be done to the reluctor wheel in order to trigger properly and what do they do with the advance weight and phasing. I dont really know whats involved there but it sounds like you would be hacking up a 300 dollar distributor right out of the box.
Rich

[TurboNova]

At what point does it default ? The LED's are always flashing sequentially when I look at the box, up to the point of RPM being too high to to see the sequence.

With no cam sync, the engine does not know where #1 is so every time you start the engine it will look for a signal for #1 and may not quite get the firing order correct.

[TurboNova]

Brian,

can you tell me what kind of mods need to be done to the distributor to run sequential? How come know makes a cam sensor distributor so you dont have to mod one? If I converted it over to crank trigger will all the parameter in my timing table need to be changed and re-tuned?

Thanks for the info - Rich

Depending on how you want to run it there are several ways to accomplish sequential,

Fast Dual Sync
Accel Dual Sync
MSD really isn't set up right but will work
AEM 24x will work with the XIM COP box
GM has a Hall Effect Cam Sync that can be used.

I usually just buy a MSD billett standard mechanical distributor and about 30 mins have a good cam sync.

take off the distributor gear
pull the distributor shaft out
take off c-clip below the reluctor wheel
knock off the reluctor wheel and get rid of the roll pin holding it in place
break off 7 of the 8 teeth off the reluctor wheel any 7
drill and tap two 8-32 set screws opposite of each other in the reluctor wheel
put back together with out the roll pin in the reluctor wheel

Now you have an adjustable cam sync and can phase the rotor where you want to.
We have been doing cam syncs this way for at least 10 years now. Proven easy and better than a dual sync for high horsepower stuff.

Timing will not have to be changed, you will find that you will need less fuel in the VE table for sequential.

[TurboNova]

For about $900 you can ditch the Dual Sync distributor or cam signal altogether... by going to the Multiport EZ-EFI kit. That's what I'm doing.

Of course, that will be batch fired - but sequential is all about emissions over power or drivability.

As soon as my motor is done - I'll post up some engine dyno time from start up of this system to final. It should be interesting given the 8 stack EFI I'm running.

The XFI has a bunch of better features than the EZ setup. I do however like the EZ EFI, we were playing with it last time I was at comp/fast on the engine dyno.

bank to bank is good and I have run my race car on bank for the first 4 years. It worked fine although I did find that now running sequential it idles much better, spools faster and will 60' much faster than before. So it did pick up some bottom end power.

Little things, now in a stack injection (you are a fan of) sequential is almost necessary unless you are really running a small cam with very good vac. I have found that having the individual cylinder trims with this really helps. If you are running something like a 6 speed, big cam and stack injection then you really have to run sequential or you will find one or two stacks always popping.

I wouldn't at all say that sequential isn't about power or drivability because it is also.

[wedged]

With no cam sync, the engine does not know where #1 is so every time you start the engine it will look for a signal for #1 and may not quite get the firing order correct.

So it actually does not revert to batch fire, it's just not properly sequenced. That is what I thought when I set it up originally. I figured since batch firing is not really timed to valve events, what harm could there be in a random sequential ? As a reminder, my thinking was to have less of a pressure spike in the rails. When I first built this set up, I installed magnets in the damper and made my own trigger bracket with a mini pick up that is the same as the MSD mini. The magnets I used were too small and would loose too much strength when they got up to engine temp. This would cause it to loose the crank signal and misfire. It took me a little while to figure out what was happening. Luckily, I was still testing my crank trigger set up and had not yet modified the distributor to be the cam signal. I simply changed the connector over to the distributor. At some point, I will fix my crank trigger and set it all up properly.


edit:
Brian, you have helped me before on the EFI101 site. Thanks !


I'd really like to see a data base of various EFI tune files with engine specs. I'd be happy to share mine (and take the heat about how crappy they are).

[TurboNova]

So it actually does not revert to batch fire, it's just not properly sequenced. That is what I thought when I set it up originally. I figured since batch firing is not really timed to valve events, what harm could there be in a random sequential ? As a reminder, my thinking was to have less of a pressure spike in the rails. When I first built this set up, I installed magnets in the damper and made my own trigger bracket with a mini pick up that is the same as the MSD mini. The magnets I used were too small and would loose too much strength when they got up to engine temp. This would cause it to loose the crank signal and misfire. It took me a little while to figure out what was happening. Luckily, I was still testing my crank trigger set up and had not yet modified the distributor to be the cam signal. I simply changed the connector over to the distributor. At some point, I will fix my crank trigger and set it all up properly.


edit:
Brian, you have helped me before on the EFI101 site. Thanks !


I'd really like to see a data base of various EFI tune files with engine specs. I'd be happy to share mine (and take the heat about how crappy they are).

Getting people to post their tune file in a database is a good idea, however most think this is some black magic stuff and they are the only ones that can do it. It's very hard to change that kind of thinking.

The way you have your engine setup, you have to add more fuel than you would have to in order to get it to run good. In bank to bank mode the ECU will fire four injectors every 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation. In sequential it cuts down the firing and only fires one injector per ignition event. To get this to run without a cam sync you would have to really richen up the tune to get fuel left over at the valve to when it opened it would run smooth.

What about the new Fast crank trigger? It is only 1/16 thick and hall effect.

[GregWeld]

The XFI has a bunch of better features than the EZ setup. I do however like the EZ EFI, we were playing with it last time I was at comp/fast on the engine dyno.

bank to bank is good and I have run my race car on bank for the first 4 years. It worked fine although I did find that now running sequential it idles much better, spools faster and will 60' much faster than before. So it did pick up some bottom end power.

Little things, now in a stack injection (you are a fan of) sequential is almost necessary unless you are really running a small cam with very good vac. I have found that having the individual cylinder trims with this really helps. If you are running something like a 6 speed, big cam and stack injection then you really have to run sequential or you will find one or two stacks always popping.

I wouldn't at all say that sequential isn't about power or drivability because it is also.



Good info Brian. Thanks! Funny... Dan Peterson and I were just discussing this very thing yesterday... ie., the 'popping'... and I know you and I were trying to find this when you were tuning Pierre's BBC at your shop.

So here's the big EZ EFI question from me (and I'm NOT getting rid of the Accel until I see how this pig runs on the engine dyno). I know the ECM asks if you're running IR... but without a cam signal it's got to run in batch? So with no common plenum - and it's firing in bank to bank (batch) how's that going to work when you have IR? Obviously it works because Inglese is selling this "system" so it must be "okay".

When you say BIG CAM -- what's big (since you're RACER BOY -- LOL)? I'm thinking we're going to run this Comp custom grind as recommended by them.

230/238 .576/.576 (1.6) on a 109.

The part number would be 12-000-8 and the grind number would be CS
3016S/3475S HR109+2

Building a "406" - Dart Pro 1 200cc heads - Honda crank journal - Mahle piston - 6" rod - Dart Little M - 4.155 bore - 3.750 stroke.

PS -- I understand Sequential firing truly making a better EFI system - but this thread is about EZ EFI -- and we know we can't run that way with the EZ EFI ECM -- so it's more about in comparison to a carburetor as far as drivability and fuel milage and "ease" of conversion that I make that "statement".

[GregWeld]

I mis-spoke - this thread is not the EZ EFI thread I mentioned -- forgot where I was!!! :rofl:

Sorry -- I might even be jacking the thread -- so I apologize for that!

[TurboNova]

Good info Brian. Thanks! Funny... Dan Peterson and I were just discussing this very thing yesterday... ie., the 'popping'... and I know you and I were trying to find this when you were tuning Pierre's BBC at your shop.

So here's the big EZ EFI question from me (and I'm NOT getting rid of the Accel until I see how this pig runs on the engine dyno). I know the ECM asks if you're running IR... but without a cam signal it's got to run in batch? So with no common plenum - and it's firing in bank to bank (batch) how's that going to work when you have IR? Obviously it works because Inglese is selling this "system" so it must be "okay".

Did you actually say this? hahah just because someone sells something does not mean it actually works. Especially in the EFI world, people try to compare things like a holley comander 950 to a Fast or Accel. It isn't even in the same product range, does it work for what it is meant for... yes.

Bank to bank is only what the EZ system will do, it has no provision for a cam sync. It is supposed to be a budget system for no tuning and 500hp and under. We will see how well it works on a IR system other than the Inglese.... I will be suprised if it does.

I believe the Inglese is a common plenum built into the bottom of the intake or more than the kinsler or hilborn is. Not sure on this but we looked at one at Comp, I will check it out closer in May.

When you say BIG CAM -- what's big (since you're RACER BOY -- LOL)? I'm thinking we're going to run this Comp custom grind as recommended by them.

230/238 .576/.576 (1.6) on a 109.

The part number would be 12-000-8 and the grind number would be CS
3016S/3475S HR109+2

Building a "406" - Dart Pro 1 200cc heads - Honda crank journal - Mahle piston - 6" rod - Dart Little M - 4.155 bore - 3.750 stroke.

PS -- I understand Sequential firing truly making a better EFI system - but this thread is about EZ EFI -- and we know we can't run that way with the EZ EFI ECM -- so it's more about in comparison to a carburetor as far as drivability and fuel milage and "ease" of conversion that I make that "statement".

I would only be worried about the 109 lobe sep but the duration isn't too big so it should work good. The key to the IR and EFI is a cam that provides good vac because you are trying to run a style of intake that is meant for drag racing, really. You end up getting enough air for full power long before your throttle angle is large enough for full throttle.

I really do like the EZ EFI system, we have done a couple and were at comp when they did some testing on it. For what it is meant for you can't beat it.
Way better than a carb!!

Pierre's car worked out well, a car that had the right cam/intake combo.

Usually it isn't that way and someone brings up a large cam, no vac, IR intake and a 6 speed. Try to get that to work on anything other than sequential. Fuel needs change depending on what gear you are in and the tuning window is small. Balancing the air going into the intake goes a long way to fixing the popping.

[GregWeld]

Maybe I should push that out to 112* ??

I need vacuum for the MAP and the fuel pressure reg....

Thanks!

[TurboNova]

yeah, 112 would be better.

[GregWeld]

Brian -- Maybe I need to contact Brian Reese and see about that Inglese intake because that would make a HUGE difference if it's running a common plenum!

They're "selling it" as a IR and I suppose "technically" that might be half true... with IR blades but it's not really if it has a common plenum for batch firing.

THAT really bothers me now! Do you have any "ins" with someone that I can check with?? Their website is the absolute WORST in the industry! :cheers:

[TurboNova]

Call David Page 1-800-667-5763

[GregWeld]

The PHOTO of their (INGLESE) IR setup appears to use the exact same manifold I'm running -- the old WEBBER intake... no common plenum... Unless they're hiding something on the valley side.. :>)

The only reason I thought I'd try the EZ EFI is because they (Inglese) offer this with the Inglese 8 stack set up... so thought -- HEY! That would be mighty easy... IF -- BIG IF -- it works...

[TurboNova]

Brian -- Maybe I need to contact Brian Reese and see about that Inglese intake because that would make a HUGE difference if it's running a common plenum!

They're "selling it" as a IR and I suppose "technically" that might be half true... with IR blades but it's not really if it has a common plenum for batch firing.

THAT really bothers me now! Do you have any "ins" with someone that I can check with?? Their website is the absolute WORST in the industry! :cheers:

If it has a common plenum and individual throttle bodies then that is a good thing. That is usually the problem with these intakes not working very well with an EFI engine. I think it does. I looked at it last month but we were just in there quick.

[TurboNova]

The PHOTO of their (INGLESE) IR setup appears to use the exact same manifold I'm running -- the old WEBBER intake... no common plenum... Unless they're hiding something on the valley side.. :>)

The only reason I thought I'd try the EZ EFI is because they (Inglese) offer this with the Inglese 8 stack set up... so thought -- HEY! That would be mighty easy... IF -- BIG IF -- it works...

Hiding it in the valley is exactly what they did I believe but check to make sure. Which would be good right?

[GregWeld]

Brian --

Sent you mail...

The problem with INGLESE and FAST websites is just POOR INFO.... and it makes it real hard to be a buyer -- when you're not sure what it is you're buying. So hopefully I can get some concrete answers and get this all put together. I don't mind being an "early adopter" -- but like the know what I need etc.

The problem arrises from showing one manifold style in one location on the website - but visiting the actual "store" shows a completely different style - and now I can't even find the EZ EFI/Intake package.... that was offered! LOL

I like the integrated plenum - that's a great idea - and even better if a guy can use the larger port shown for a PCV port! That is one of the biggest hassles running a "street car" with the 8 stack... is the lack of vacuum (except for the tiny signal in a very small plenum for the MAP). I'm all into buying that entire intake if that's the case - but danged if I can find anyone that will give me the CORRECT scoop!

[wedged]

Getting people to post their tune file in a database is a good idea, however most think this is some black magic stuff and they are the only ones that can do it. It's very hard to change that kind of thinking.

The way you have your engine setup, you have to add more fuel than you would have to in order to get it to run good. In bank to bank mode the ECU will fire four injectors every 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation. In sequential it cuts down the firing and only fires one injector per ignition event. To get this to run without a cam sync you would have to really richen up the tune to get fuel left over at the valve to when it opened it would run smooth.

What about the new Fast crank trigger? It is only 1/16 thick and hall effect.

Very interesting... fuel economy is a concearn... well, more like more MPG is better than less. I took a look at the FAST trigger when you mentioned before and assumed it had to be a hall effect. There are no Mopar applications listed and my damper is not flush across the face. It has a recess. That's actually why I did not use a standard trigger wheel from the start. I have couple of new aftermarket dampers on the shelf, I'll have to check those to see if they are flat.


Just noticed on the FAST site that the new wheels are .125", not 1/16".

Just went out and checked the shelf. I do have several SFI and non SFI flat faced dampers. The other issue I had with the standard flying magnet wheel is the thickness. I have a March single belt serpentine system and there's not much meat on the back of the crank pulley that could be machined off. 1/16" is much more feasable than 1/4". I may not even need to have it cut as I have it shimmed out about 1/8" right now for belt alignment. That may change with the new damper. I've got CAD files of the crank pulley bolt pattern so I could have a wheel cut if I could find a measurement of the tooth height and width.

[GregWeld]

Brian --

Sent you mail...

The problem with INGLESE and FAST websites is just POOR INFO.... and it makes it real hard to be a buyer -- when you're not sure what it is you're buying. So hopefully I can get some concrete answers and get this all put together. I don't mind being an "early adopter" -- but like the know what I need etc.

The problem arrises from showing one manifold style in one location on the website - but visiting the actual "store" shows a completely different style - and now I can't even find the EZ EFI/Intake package.... that was offered! LOL

I like the integrated plenum - that's a great idea - and even better if a guy can use the larger port shown for a PCV port! That is one of the biggest hassles running a "street car" with the 8 stack... is the lack of vacuum (except for the tiny signal in a very small plenum for the MAP). I'm all into buying that entire intake if that's the case - but danged if I can find anyone that will give me the CORRECT scoop!


OKAY --- SO.... bought their INTAKE manifold an hour ago -- The guy you told me to call - called me back -- good guy. There IS A HUGE PLENUM built into the floor of the intake manifold... with large holes (almost 1/2") open to each intake port - so it does have a "common" plenum. He's telling me - with the correct cam etc - that there's enough vacuum (if you make enough of course) to run power brakes and or a PCV valve... which is something I could NOT do with the intake I have now. Since it's IDA based -- I can just swap over my billet throttle bodies -- and should be good to go! We'll see once I have this handy little guy in my hot little hands. :woot:

[TurboNova]

Very interesting... fuel economy is a concearn... well, more like more MPG is better than less. I took a look at the FAST trigger when you mentioned before and assumed it had to be a hall effect. There are no Mopar applications listed and my damper is not flush across the face. It has a recess. That's actually why I did not use a standard trigger wheel from the start. I have couple of new aftermarket dampers on the shelf, I'll have to check those to see if they are flat.


Just noticed on the FAST site that the new wheels are .125", not 1/16".

Just went out and checked the shelf. I do have several SFI and non SFI flat faced dampers. The other issue I had with the standard flying magnet wheel is the thickness. I have a March single belt serpentine system and there's not much meat on the back of the crank pulley that could be machined off. 1/16" is much more feasable than 1/4". I may not even need to have it cut as I have it shimmed out about 1/8" right now for belt alignment. That may change with the new damper. I've got CAD files of the crank pulley bolt pattern so I could have a wheel cut if I could find a measurement of the tooth height and width.

The crank trigger can be magnetic or hall effect it just depends on how you wire it into the ECU.

The cam sync can also be either magnetic or hall effect same thing.

You are right the Fast wheel is 1/8" and a hall sensor. The MSD crank trigger is 3/8" and magnetic.

[TurboNova]

OKAY --- SO.... bought their INTAKE manifold an hour ago -- The guy you told me to call - called me back -- good guy. There IS A HUGE PLENUM built into the floor of the intake manifold... with large holes (almost 1/2") open to each intake port - so it does have a "common" plenum. He's telling me - with the correct cam etc - that there's enough vacuum (if you make enough of course) to run power brakes and or a PCV valve... which is something I could NOT do with the intake I have now. Since it's IDA based -- I can just swap over my billet throttle bodies -- and should be good to go! We'll see once I have this handy little guy in my hot little hands. :woot:

I thought it had a large plenum in the middle. I looked at it while we were there and talked to the guy who puts them together. It was a nice looking piece. Still not sure about the bank to bank though.

Why wouldn't you keep your Accel DFI and use this intake?

[GregWeld]

Brian --

I like the "self tuning" part of the EZ EFI.... and not having to run the Dual Sync distributor. I'm just being an early adopter -- if the EZ doesn't work out on the engine dyno - it won't go in... Also told the builder to do a belt drive cam so we can swap out a couple different versions on the dyno - just to play with this whole system. Once the cam choice is done - we'll button it back up properly. All in good fun.

The intake is pretty reasonable -- and IF -- big IF -- I can run a PCV with it - then it's good! I'd like to dump the whole catch can deal I made up... less plumbing in a street rod is a good thing.

First we'll mess with it on the dyno - then I'll report my findings and how everything worked out.

[TurboNova]

Brian --

I like the "self tuning" part of the EZ EFI.... and not having to run the Dual Sync distributor. I'm just being an early adopter -- if the EZ doesn't work out on the engine dyno - it won't go in... Also told the builder to do a belt drive cam so we can swap out a couple different versions on the dyno - just to play with this whole system. Once the cam choice is done - we'll button it back up properly. All in good fun.

The intake is pretty reasonable -- and IF -- big IF -- I can run a PCV with it - then it's good! I'd like to dump the whole catch can deal I made up... less plumbing in a street rod is a good thing.

First we'll mess with it on the dyno - then I'll report my findings and how everything worked out.

I am interested to see how well it works with IR intakes.

Really the self tuning is a good selling point but the XFI also has the same feature that works the same way it's called "closed loop" that is how the EZ EFI changes it's internal tables. The XFI has been doing that for years, we as the tuners just want to actually tune it right and make the changes. All of the Fast products have very good closed loop control, better than most of the others.

Have you seen the Joe Hunt distributor? They have a dual sync that looks like an old mag. It has a hall/hall sensor I believe.

A couple of customers I have went to these to keep the old style look.

[GregWeld]

The problem with Joe Hunt stuff and 8 stack -- CLEARANCE.... Buddy -- let me tall ya it's TIGHT back there!

[camcojb]

The problem with Joe Hunt stuff and 8 stack -- CLEARANCE.... Buddy -- let me tall ya it's TIGHT back there!
The Hunt mags I've seen are smaller diameter than a standard distributor. I love the IR setups, ran this one on my Cobra with a FAST ecu.

Jody

[GregWeld]

Jody -- my problem is HEIGHT! Both personally and with the distributor. As you know - each of these manifolds is different... and I have a fuel log issue right on top the distributor. :>) In order to stab the distributor - I have to remove the back passenger side TB's.
:hail:

[camcojb]

Jody -- my problem is HEIGHT! Both personally and with the distributor. As you know - each of these manifolds is different... and I have a fuel log issue right on top the distributor. :>) In order to stab the distributor - I have to remove the back passenger side TB's.
:hail:
height would be an issue with most magneto's.......................... :willy:

[67ragtp]

Thought I would give a little feedback on the rebuilt dual sync I posted during the winter. I finally got to run the engine today, and it ran better than it ever has, very crisp , cold start was perfect especially after 3 months, revs real fast. The distributor shaft moving around inependent of the rotor had to create some of the misfire. If you have one of these it may be worth spending the time and really go through a good inspection on it.

Rich

[GregWeld]

Brian --

I think you need a trip back "home" for the initial fire up -- that way you could report back to Inglese/Fast first hand info on how this is going to work!! LOL :thumbsup:

[TurboNova]

Depending on when you are ready I might be up there. I have some work coming up with Divers Street Rods. I will be back to the northwest often I am sure, I still have customers who I work with up there. Mostly I am traveling places tuning and contracting on bigger projects. Working with other shops making sure they are getting the right EFI stuff. I am working with Divers on the twin turbo Duramax Caddilac and the 39 Ford with the GT 40 engine right now.

[GregWeld]

Okay -- As soon as I have some idea when she'll be ready - will get in touch with you. Waiting on the crank now I think... but it won't be long once the parts all get here. Heads are here.. rods where shipped - so "soon" I hope!

[TurboNova]

Sounds like I am going to be in Kennewick May 1st-3rd and have to be in Memphis by May 8th but I though about maybe coming to Seattle after Kennewick inbetween.

Are you going to be that close? If I know how engines go, most likely not.

[GregWeld]

Yeah -- we've been there and done that - more than a few times. Was down at the wholesale parts joint today -- Heads still in will call... and no crank yet. So I can't even give ya a good guesstimate. If all the parts show up - then yeah but who the heck knows.

[GregWeld]

Got the Intake today -- it has a HUGE common plenum built into the floor - and a removable plate on the valley side... SWEET! Nice quality piece. Casting quality and machining are top notch.

There is a half inch hole in each runner porting to the common plenum - and there are 3 threaded ports for various vacuum "items". This is going to be a huge improvement over my Webber manifold!

I'll post up some pics tomorrow.

[GregWeld]

Just a couple pics of the 8 stack EFI Inglese intake == showing the common plenum they've built in. A really nice piece! Note the THREE ports in the floor.

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Inglese%20Intake/DSC_7773.jpg


A removable floor piece on the valley side....

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Inglese%20Intake/DSC_7776.jpg


With the floor piece removed...

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Inglese%20Intake/DSC_7780.jpg


Look into the intake port and you can see the 1/2" holes for the vacuum source "under the blades"... NICE!!!

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Inglese%20Intake/DSC_7782.jpg

[waynieZ]

Thats a beautiful looking intake.

[GregWeld]

Thanks Wayne! The casting quality is just first class all the way - far better "as cast" than my Weber version!

[camcojb]

what's the max diameter butterfly they'll accept?


Jody

[GregWeld]

Good question Jody -- I have no clue!

My throttle bodies are 2"... and based on the IDA Weber "platform"....

I don't know what the flow rate is - if you stacked all 8 and did a WOT -- but I'm thinking it's way more air than my motor will ever need!! :rolleyes:

In fact - I've thought about that many times - thinking about the blades on a 850 CFM Holley -- and then comparing that to the "area" of 8 x 2" holes... I'm thinking these manifolds have to be capable of 1200 CFM plus?

[camcojb]

Good question Jody -- I have no clue!

My throttle bodies are 2"... and based on the IDA Weber "platform"....

I don't know what the flow rate is - if you stacked all 8 and did a WOT -- but I'm thinking it's way more air than my motor will ever need!! :rolleyes:

In fact - I've thought about that many times - thinking about the blades on a 850 CFM Holley -- and then comparing that to the "area" of 8 x 2" holes... I'm thinking these manifolds have to be capable of 1200 CFM plus?
well, total cfm doesn't mean a lot when you're speaking of individual runner setups. There is no "borrowing" for a cylinder like there is in a common plenum setup, the max airflow for a port is whatever that port/blade can flow.

I remember with my Hilborn setup, it used 2 3/16" blades which seem huge; flowed like 280 cfm per port , so like 2200 cfm total.................. problem was my heads were good for 312 cfm per port (intake), so I actually was pulling 2-3 inches of vacuum at wot, showing the flow restriction.

With higher hp IR setup you need to make sure they can flow enough to support your power level. Many of the smaller setups will support maybe 500 hp or so; not a problem with most engines but something to consider with a stronger build or larger engine.

Jody

[GregWeld]

Right! Good points Jody!

For me - this won't be an issue... and these manifolds (my Weber and this new one) will only cover an intake port using Fel Pro 1205 gasket size... so you're automatically limited to a smaller set of heads from the get go.

I could go as large as the Dart Pro 1 200cc head... But these intakes won't cover the set of Canfield 220's I have which have the raised ports.

I'm just building a "hot rod" motor - as I've mentioned before. Going for more bottom end - cruising and street manors this time around... and this is an "experiment" to try out the FAST EZ EFI. I'm not even taking the Accel Gen 7 stuff out of the Nomad until this new set up proves itself on the engine dyno!

[camcojb]

Right! Good points Jody!

For me - this won't be an issue... and these manifolds (my Weber and this new one) will only cover an intake port using Fel Pro 1205 gasket size... so you're automatically limited to a smaller set of heads from the get go.

I could go as large as the Dart Pro 1 200cc head... But these intakes won't cover the set of Canfield 220's I have which have the raised ports.

I'm just building a "hot rod" motor - as I've mentioned before. Going for more bottom end - cruising and street manors this time around... and this is an "experiment" to try out the FAST EZ EFI. I'm not even taking the Accel Gen 7 stuff out of the Nomad until this new set up proves itself on the engine dyno!
it's a great looking manifold, and I really like the plenum deal they did. I just wanted people to know that total cfm of airflow with an IR setup can be quite misleading and is not quite what it is with a common plenum setup.

Jody

[GregWeld]

it's a great looking manifold, and I really like the plenum deal they did. I just wanted people to know that total cfm of airflow with an IR setup can be quite misleading and is not quite what it is with a common plenum setup.

Jody

YOU'RE RIGHT! It's all based on a single hole!

I do LOVE the instantaneous throttle response they deliver!

You crack the throttle - you go zoom zoom... :>)

Talking to a tuner about IR's -- he says that to tune them correctly you have to add cells to the tables - especially down low (high vacuum) because you crack the throttle and there's lots of AIR but no fuel... so he redefines the tables to be able to have the cells (more and closer) to react to that inflow of air. Made sense to me.

I'm not using the correct descriptions for the tuning part - but you get what I mean.

[TurboNova]

YOU'RE RIGHT! It's all based on a single hole!

I do LOVE the instantaneous throttle response they deliver!

You crack the throttle - you go zoom zoom... :>)

Talking to a tuner about IR's -- he says that to tune them correctly you have to add cells to the tables - especially down low (high vacuum) because you crack the throttle and there's lots of AIR but no fuel... so he redefines the tables to be able to have the cells (more and closer) to react to that inflow of air. Made sense to me.

I'm not using the correct descriptions for the tuning part - but you get what I mean.

Yes and No

It all depends on what Cam you are running and how much idle Vac it produces. I just got back from Eugene, OR.... tuning an XFI with a Hilborn EFI intake. Hilborn told them that they could just use one of the 350 ECU tunes in the Fast folder :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: not even close. Anyway, you have to do several things correct to make it work. #1 is I always use sequential no matter what, you have seperate stacks for air and you also should for fuel. It just fixes alot of problems, that was the first thing I changed on this Vette. If it is a standard trans it is even more important. #2 is, at idle all of the butterflies should flow the same with one of those flow meters or you will chase your tail. #3 the scale (KPA) on the left of the ECU VE Table program (if it can) should be scaled correct for the cam you are using, sometimes it needs more at the bottom and sometimes more at the top. It really depends on the cam combo. But then this is nothing different that should not be done on every engine too.

The whole VE KPA thing is what has me worried about the EZ EFI, (since you can't change it) but it does work very well with the other combos. It is also only bank to bank. The intake is really cool though. I have been wanting to use one of those with an XFI on someting. It may eventually be my Nova Wagon.

[GregWeld]

Eugene is nice -- Lots and lots of college girls! LOL

Brian -- The number one reason I have left the entire Accel Gen 7 INSTALLED in the Nomad -- is because it ain't coming out of there until this EZ stuff proves itself on the engine dyno!

I do plan to do everything I can to make it work - ala buying the Inglese intake... The cam will have 113* LSA -- and 230/236 duration... so not too wild.

I agree with you on the one intake - one airway - one fuel way theory... and have so not come to terms with the "batch fire" system that the EZ uses - but (BIG BUTT) I ASSume that Inglese wouldn't offer this system with their IR intake if they hadn't made it work... Keeping my fingers crossed of course. Hope they didn't keep their fingers crossed behind their backs!

[TurboNova]

Eugene is nice -- Lots and lots of college girls! LOL

Brian -- The number one reason I have left the entire Accel Gen 7 INSTALLED in the Nomad -- is because it ain't coming out of there until this EZ stuff proves itself on the engine dyno!

I do plan to do everything I can to make it work - ala buying the Inglese intake... The cam will have 113* LSA -- and 230/236 duration... so not too wild.

I agree with you on the one intake - one airway - one fuel way theory... and have so not come to terms with the "batch fire" system that the EZ uses - but (BIG BUTT) I ASSume that Inglese wouldn't offer this system with their IR intake if they hadn't made it work... Keeping my fingers crossed of course. Hope they didn't keep their fingers crossed behind their backs!

No, I agree that they have done some testing BUT I think that will also depend on how big of a cam someone uses and how much vac it makes. If it is something like yours, you stand a good chance getting it to work well.

Funny that you would say that just because someone sells it that it should work, how many car parts have you bought that didn't? I have a pile of them. About 1/2 of the EFI stuff out there is junk and really does not work very well.

I am not down on the EZ EFI at all, I really actually like it, just not so sure on this application.

The car I worked on the last few days had a XFI, which does a bunch more than the EZ, it didin't have the plenum in the bottom but was a 350 with a very small cam, also a 5 speed. It did not work with bank to bank mode, switched to a crank trigger and modified his MSD tach drive distributor and almost all of our idle problems just went away. I expect a very detailed report when you are done if I can't make it up there.

I talked to Divers today, they are on a mad dash to get the 39 Ford done, so I wll be up that way before too long. At least in the next couple of months anyway.

[GregWeld]

I think I should have the motor on the dyno next week some time. I will video it -- and all the "process" as we go thru it.

I know what you're saying about "just because they sell it". I "hot rod" every part I get I think! LOL

I went with Smallish cam --- and smallish heads (Dart Pro 1 180cc) in order to keep vacuum signal strong and the idle good... it's a hot rod motor - in a heavy car - with 700r4 and 3:7O's - 2600 stall converter... I need it to be DRIVABLE on power tour without hassles... :>)

It shall be fun and a good learning curve! :woot:

[TurboNova]

At least it is an auto with a mild engine, that should help a bunch. Don't expect it to run very well for 7 or 8 pulls, make sure the dyno guy runs the engine warmer that they usually do. It needs to be a min of 140 but I would keep the engine 180. The EZ EFI will not go into learn mode if it is too cold. It takes a little bit of running for it to learn and start adjusting to where it will run good.

[GregWeld]

Good info Brian --- And yes -- I'd read that about the 140* for "learn mode".

My plan is to bring it up to temp -- then do some "steady state" at various rpms and loads... let the ECM learn... get everything nice and warm... then start at lower RPMS and just bring things up nice and slowly while loaded.

The dyno cell at Prestons has the A/F up on the wall (digital) as well as the monitor. I'm also going to run individual EGT's... because it's a new motor and I don't plan on hurting it right out of the box.

The dyno has a fuel/spark kill - with an instant shut down under load... so we can pull a blast - kill it - and read the plugs... I'm thinking that with small heads -- small cam - it should make some cylinder pressure - and timing might need to be a little less than the "normal" 36 or 38*...... What say you?

[John S]

I thought I would add some pics of how I modded my FAST dist to overcome the loose cap syndrome. I bought a Mini Mill and trying my hand at different projects. Having never been a machinist it is a fun learning curve. I'm just glad I have not had to pay for any of the aluminum that I've used up in the process.

These are my third attempt at the mounts, took me a couple of tries to figure out just how to use the rotary table for the proper radius cuts but now that I've got that figured out I am already planning on my next generation mounts. Hopefully a bit more aesthetically pleasing.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h111/johnspo/1986%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/New%20engine%20parts/DSCN0130.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h111/johnspo/1986%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/New%20engine%20parts/DSCN0126.jpg

[67ragtp]

John- They look great! Im curious how deep were you able to drill into the housing were the button head screws are? I wasn't sure how much meat was behind there so I was reluctant to take your approach, but I like it much better. Are the button heads #10-24/32 or 1/4-20/28s? Nice job :thumbsup:

Rich

[John S]

Rich,
The housing is about 1/8" thick in that area, not Ideal but I think it will hold up. That whole area of the distributor is open on the inside so drilling through and tapping was not an issue, I used loctite on the screws as well. One thing that you may not be able to tell from the pictures is that I milled a 1/2" diameter recess where the small detent for the clip used to be. I plan on making another set this time with the mounting stud as part of the mount instead of a separate spacer. If you are interested I could hook you up :)

John- They look great! Im curious how deep were you able to drill into the housing were the button head screws are? I wasn't sure how much meat was behind there so I was reluctant to take your approach, but I like it much better. Are the button heads #10-24/32 or 1/4-20/28s? Nice job :thumbsup:

Rich

[GregWeld]

Mounting stuff like that is what TIG welders are designed for.... :rofl: :thumbsup: