Expert Turbo on BB Chevy advice?????

[69MyWay]

I really want to take my 69 Vette to the next level. It has been decided at this point we will be keeping the car for some time to come (we had been considering selling it).

I want to take it to the next level. I let a 2000 LS1 slip right through my fingers a couple of months ago (for free!--DARN!)

Specs on car right now:

454 .060 over
9.2:1 speed pro forged pistons
Edelbrock oval port RPM heads
Edelbrock RPM cam
1.8 Crane Gold rollers
Pro-Flo EFI
ROD 6 speed (.62 final drive-may be .64, can't remember for sure)
3.55 gears
335 30 18 rear meats.
Hooker side pipe headers spun through JCL spiral baffles.

Now...I have visions of putting a pair of turbos on each side of the motor down low by the oil pan and still routing the exhaust through the side to retain the current sidepipe exhause look and sound.

Intercooling is not that important to me at the moment.

Performance wise I am looking for a 100 to 150 more hp on average with pump gas and that wicked cool sound of the turbo spool and blow off valves.

So...Can somebody put together list of parts and pieces that I would need to start looking for to make this happen? I would also like to retain the Pro-flo as they claim it will support up to 750 hp, but I do realize I would have to go back to Edelbrock and work on a new base chip to build my calibrations. Oh, I would also like to leave the internals of the engine as they sit right now.

[camcojb]

I don't think you can use the Pro Flo on a forced induction. It won't run a 2 bar or 3 bar map sensor, so you have no tuning under boost.


The engine would physically run with the current parts and easily meet you HP goals, but the compression and cam are obviously not ideal. Cool project though.

Jody

[69MyWay]

I don't think you can use the Pro Flo on a forced induction. It won't run a 2 bar or 3 bar map sensor, so you have no tuning under boost.


The engine would physically run with the current parts and easily meet you HP goals, but the compression and cam are obviously not ideal. Cool project though.

Jody


I talked to the guys at Edelbrock. They have since re-vamped and now use the system on a fully programable computer. The bad news is that it does not appear mine is compatable to upgrade. I can always sell mine and offset the cost of another EFI system, or use the base hardware and upgrade the harness and sensors to a different system. Looks like this will be a challenge (to keep the expense reasonable).

On the turbo side however, what are you thoughts on the type of turbos I need and how I go about selecting them?

[XcYZ]

Chris, any ideas on what you are going to use for manifolds? And if you mount the turbos down low, you'll need a way to scavenge the return oil.

[Yenko boy]

69MYWAY I shot you a PM.

[Blown353]

As far as mounting the turbos low and oil drainage: Lingenfelter uses small gear scavenge pumps for their C5 vette turbo installs which also install their turbos very low; you may want to inquire if they will sell them seperately.

Troy

[TOM NELSON]

You Can Use The Manifold And Throttle Body And Probally The Rails I Have To See Them.chuck The Management Out The Door.injectors Two Something Like A 83 Pound Will Work Great.you Can Run Electromotive To Manage It.two 72 Mm Turbos.if You Look At Shawn Doves Corvette The Hedders We Built Him Exit In To Side Pipes.there Low But Not So Low You Have To Run A Pump Stay Away From That.100 To 150 Hp Extra Could Be Achieved With 3 Psi With This Set Up Theres Some Ideas For You .tom

[69MyWay]

You Can Use The Manifold And Throttle Body And Probally The Rails I Have To See Them.chuck The Management Out The Door.injectors Two Something Like A 83 Pound Will Work Great.you Can Run Electromotive To Manage It.two 72 Mm Turbos.if You Look At Shawn Doves Corvette The Hedders We Built Him Exit In To Side Pipes.there Low But Not So Low You Have To Run A Pump Stay Away From That.100 To 150 Hp Extra Could Be Achieved With 3 Psi With This Set Up Theres Some Ideas For You .tom


Tom,

This is what my EFI looks like. It is a very standard fuel rail set up:

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/autopartsphotos/fuel_inj/3550_callouts2.gif

I remember the 87-88 Callaway Turbo Vettes had a pair of turbos mounted low on each side of the engine. I would need to set the oiling system up like they did as it appeared to work. Would 3 psi be enough to generate much turbo noise (the jet like whine when they spool)? I know that sounds silly, but I LOVE to hear a turbo spooling. It is the coolest sound next to the pure thunder rumble of the exhaust.

[69MyWay]

69MYWAY I shot you a PM.

Got it!

:thumbsup:

[69MyWay]

I don't think you can use the Pro Flo on a forced induction. It won't run a 2 bar or 3 bar map sensor, so you have no tuning under boost.


The engine would physically run with the current parts and easily meet you HP goals, but the compression and cam are obviously not ideal. Cool project though.

Jody


Jody,

Don't know if I am barking up the wrong tree, but I just learned of this product:

http://www.technoresearch.com/Products/WinProFlo/WinProFlo.htm

It allows a wider degree of adjustment with a lap top over the pro-flo system. I really am not schooled at all on forced induction and am not sure what the 2-3 bar map sensor is, but was wondering if this extra tuning ability brings that back into scope. It appears they are listing this for the small block application, but I am positive the software is the same to the 3550 system.

[TOM NELSON]

The Callaway set works to a limit the turbos you need are alot larger than whats on the callaway.More Turbo More air More leakage which translates into white smoke out the tail pipe under boost.Its clean and may work just keep that in mind.We have to use a single stage on a dry sump pump.But either way I haven't been able to solve the oil coming out of the tail pipe on start up in the morning whatever.Your driveway gets worked.because the oil seeps through the ring in the turbo.The fuel rails you have I would use but convert the ends to all -8 male fittings and run aeromotive fuel reg and fuel system.Yes you are right you need boost to get that good sound something like 14 pounds just starts to sound good with proper intercooling you can get your 9.2 to work but it has to be tuned right.the blow off you can put a horn on and make sound pretty sweet.but 14 pounds on your set up with 72s is something like 1100 hp can your car take it let alone the motor.You could down size the turbos.but i wouldn't do it that way .I've just used a water meth.injection and to my suprise it works pretty damn good for detonation i've had 10.5 to 1 at 11 psi no detonation .I hope this helps you some Tom.

[69MyWay]

Tom,

I think I understand. I almost bought a 1987 Callaway a number of years ago. It was a super low mile car but blew a mile of blue smoke on start up.

I guess this is because the turbo sits below the level of oil in the pan and can't drain back when shut down without pumping it. So, if I understand correctly this oil eventually leaks past the seal so that it smokes like a mother lover when you fire it up.

The thing is I have tons of room in this area on my car especially since I shaved the firewall and moved some other things around. I invented and installed electric pop up headlights that allowed me to remove the huge vacuum tank from the driver inner fender. I also squeezed in a vintage air making ample room on the passenger side inner well. The point is I have plenty of space to set up a pair of air cleaners in each fender behind the tire in front of the firewall. There is room for a turbo on each side by the pan.

Mounting it up high and in the front creates new issues with my accessories, etc.

[69MyWay]

Here is my thinking. Eventhough I did finally score the LS1 I don't plan on using it in the 69 Vette.

I think there is ample room on the Vette to put a single turbo on the passenger side up high which would avoid the oiling issues.

I would like to believe an intercooler could be mounted on top like the Callaway just before the throttle body.

It would be great to have a spare burned up Turbo of the correct size and style for my application that I could spend time playing with in different mounting configurtions BEFORE I drop the $$ on the actual unit (or units).

Been thinking this over and I realize that forced induction is the one area I have never had much hands on involvement.

I could also go to a roots style blower and work out the plumbing to clear the hood or simply raise the hood a tad. However, I don't see the challenge and reward as great in that avenue.

Where do you think I could find a wasted burned up good for nothing turbo to use as a mock up unit?

[TOM NELSON]

I would use a mid frame 88mm.You can call Innovative turbo and see if they have any loaners.

[Majik16106]

chris, i love your car, infact i was hoping to eventually build something just like it, except turbo power. i know this may be crazy, but why not sell the big block set up as a complete set up and build a nice small block to use instead, you can drop the compression, get something with some more rev to it, and the turbo... that was my plan. regardless, i still think you have the baddest vette ever. everytime i talk about my next project, my girlfriend tries to convince me to build something like yours

ninja edit: hey, just though of this though, why not look at a procharger set up? 10psi, blow off valve, probably be an extra 150-200 hp. im a mopar guy, and like most guys will tell you, in mopar land there is no such thing as a small block. by comparison they suck, notice how almost all pro touring mopars are big blocks? so i went with a stroker/ blower set up, and i LOVE IT

[69MyWay]

chris, i love your car, infact i was hoping to eventually build something just like it, except turbo power. i know this may be crazy, but why not sell the big block set up as a complete set up and build a nice small block to use instead, you can drop the compression, get something with some more rev to it, and the turbo... that was my plan. regardless, i still think you have the baddest vette ever. everytime i talk about my next project, my girlfriend tries to convince me to build something like yours

ninja edit: hey, just though of this though, why not look at a procharger set up? 10psi, blow off valve, probably be an extra 150-200 hp. im a mopar guy, and like most guys will tell you, in mopar land there is no such thing as a small block. by comparison they suck, notice how almost all pro touring mopars are big blocks? so i went with a stroker/ blower set up, and i LOVE IT


:thumbsup: Thanks Majik! That made my day.

Well, since I now have the spare LS1, my other thought was to go turbo on it and put it in the vette to save a ton of weight, go high tech...etc.

Then, I was thinking the big block really makes the car, so if I can polish that off with some forced induction then it will push it right over the edge.

I want to put this engine plan together with a mild re-do on the whole car that includes some upgrades as in larger brakes, cleaner engine bay, better stereo, and each nut/bolt detail item fit and finished as perfect as possible. The first time I put the car together my whole emphasis was just to actually see it roll again, much less attempt to perfect any one aspect.

I am checking with inovative turbo to see if I can get hooked up on something for mocking it up.

[69MyWay]

Just talked to my buddy Dave www.tropiczoneracing.com . He built the sister (coupe) car to my 69.

He suggested looking into one of those STS rear mount turbos. Here is the idea. Keep the sidepipes but remove the inner baffles. In stead of exiting out in front of the rear tires, turn them in to a Y pipe at the diff and feed into the rear mount turbo. The air cleaner and oiling system goes in the rear. From there I can run a single feed pipe up the belly (which is wide open on the side pipe corvettes) up to the motor and plumb it in.

There is a TON of room behind the diff on the old Vettes occupied ONLy by the spare tire/carrier.

This has a TON of potential and is very exciting to me. The only real trick is getting the sidepipes to turn in and look/work right.


http://www.ststurbo.com/

[Twin_Turbo]

For the love of god don't go the STS route.

As far as the low mount turbo oil seepage problem. If you make one or 2 decent sized drain sumps and let the turbos drain in the sump and then pump the oil out of the sump with something like a rear end pump (can't use the pressure section of a dry sump pump, they don't pump when they suck up air, you need a scavenge section or pump) you should be fine.

also be sure to avoid routing the drain hose horizontally and use as large a hose as you can use

[Majik16106]

yah, i vote no sts, i know a guy who had one on a ls1 trans am, it didnt last long, he decided to spend the money and build a traditional set-up, works a ton better

[69MyWay]

I was just taking a buddy out to lunch yesterday (weather was 70 degrees and BEAUTIFUL!) when a 05 Mustang with that silly narrow stripes on the hood smoked me from a roll. I pulled on him at first, then it was like he got hit by a sledge hammer and just exploded. He shot past me and I didn't hear the whine of a charger. After he got ahead and slowed down I noticed black smoke coming out of his pipes and he had aftermarket exhaust. The black smoke tells me he has soemthing under the hood.

Anyway, that was just sick! A stock 05 GT has 300 hp. DANG...I really need this mod BAD!

This is the first I heard of trouble with the STS. In theory at least, it is awesome. It has some interesting features.

The downside is, once the hood is open...nobody can see it. Therefore, for bench racing at the car shows you got nothing. Nobody gets on the ground to look under the rear of the car.

[Twin_Turbo]

Chris, go to corvetteforum.com and do a search on STS in the C3 section. I've given my view there, take it for what it's worth but I did a fairly lenthy write up there on why there is better stuff out there. Don't feel like typing all that up again

[69MyWay]

Chris, go to corvetteforum.com and do a search on STS in the C3 section. I've given my view there, take it for what it's worth but I did a fairly lenthy write up there on why there is better stuff out there. Don't feel like typing all that up again


Been searching for the last 1/2 hour or so. The only one I find under your name with STS TURBO in the search is a response to a single turbo question where you mentioned your prior post regarding STS.

I did however pull some amazine info from the C5 sections. A fellow over there is running 9's with the twin turbo STS stuff. WOW! Looks like a handful of C5 guys are running it.

I don't know anybody that has one personally. Heck...I don't even know anybody that has any turbo powered V8 Chevy!

More research.........

[protour]

I was just taking a buddy out to lunch yesterday (weather was 70 degrees and BEAUTIFUL!) when a 05 Mustang with that silly narrow stripes on the hood smoked me from a roll. I pulled on him at first, then it was like he got hit by a sledge hammer and just exploded. He shot past me and I didn't hear the whine of a charger. After he got ahead and slowed down I noticed black smoke coming out of his pipes and he had aftermarket exhaust. The black smoke tells me he has soemthing under the hood.

Anyway, that was just sick! A stock 05 GT has 300 hp. DANG...I really need this mod BAD!

This is the first I heard of trouble with the STS. In theory at least, it is awesome. It has some interesting features.

The downside is, once the hood is open...nobody can see it. Therefore, for bench racing at the car shows you got nothing. Nobody gets on the ground to look under the rear of the car.

Hahah, I sure do! I wanna see suspension parts! :unibrow:

-Matt

[69MyWay]

New plan.

I am going to sell the entire BB from the 69 Vette with the EFI, accessories, hooker headers, computer, and harness.

In its place will go my spare LS1 with a turbo configuration.

This will give me more room to mount twin turbos, take advantage of the all aluminum block, and the latest greatest tech for the Gen III motors.

I shouldn't have any problem getting a bellhousing and clutch to work with the ROD6. I should be able to sell the compete fuel injected 468 for enough to get the basics in place on the LSX motor.

[Twin_Turbo]

Chris, I sent you a PM

[69MyWay]

I tracked down a fellow at corvette forum running a twin turbo on his 71 big block Corvette. He has been sharing some photos and details of the build with me. He is running 11 psi of boost on a non-intercooled system spinning a pair of turbos tucked in the space between the firewall and front tires. The turbos are high enough to drain into the pan. He is running it all through a carb.

He is still tweaking and tuning but according to Mike it is a beast. He plans on going back and cleaning it all up with more detail items at a later date.

This is PURE inspiration for me. The coolest thing is he kept the sidepipes. I would have to ditch the power brake booster and possibly lay my radiator at a different angle as he did to clear the pipe coming over the core support. However, I think there may be other options with this.

An intercooler does not seem possible without a major overhaul of the nose. If I am keeping compression around 9.2:1 and running low boost (desired hp in the 600 range), I wonder what value a cooler would or wouldn't have.

Here are some pictures of Mike's turbos.

[69MyWay]

Front view

[Speedster]

69MyWay...

With the turbo setup as pictured you would gain very little with an intercooler.
Two reasons:
1 - You are running a blow through carb which in itself is a mini intercooler between the temperature drop of the fuel when it atomizes and the length of the intake runners.
2 - There are long lengths of plumbing and if you can keep the underhood temperature down with good airflow that will also help.

-Bruce

[jonny51]

So Chris are you going back to the original plan of a BB?600 hp sound be a piece of cake!

[69MyWay]

Bruce,

The plan is though to run EFI as the car is now. However, the Edelbrock system won't run under boost so I have to seek out a new computer/injectors, etc.

Johnny, after seeing Mike's car and knowing how I like to detail and prep things, THIS IS THE TICKET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am thinking about checking out the upper intake manifold used on the 97-00 big block chevy trucks. It is more of a plenum type with the throttle body pointing horizontal. That would assist in the plumbing.

Mike tells me his Big Block twin turbo Vette was on the drawing board for more than a year as he sorted it out in his head and gathered parts. As long as I can swap and trade to generate some side cash I should have something running inside of 8 months.