One more thought on GM's downfall

[Ummgawa]

I know a lot of folk here probably think GM should have done this or done that to survive. And Obama this that and the other. Yadda Yadda Yadda Economy.

I have grown up with General Motors for the past 49 years as a constant.

I am not heart broken over it's bankruptcy. I am saddened by it. Why?

Corvettes. Chevelles. Camaros. GTO's. Grand Sports, 442's. The Judge. W-30. Stage 1 and Stage 2's, 427 tri power/4 speed/side pipe Corvettes. Z-28. LS-6, LS-7, L-88, LT-1. 12 bolt posi's.

The New stuff ZR-1's Z06's The new Camaro.

I have grown up on this stuff. Wispers when my Uncles would tell me and my brother at family reunions as a kid in the 60's about the new bad ass cars that GM was coming out with that was being built at the Lakewood GM plant outside Atlanta. Going to the Original Chick-fil-A Dwarf House being served by Truett Cathey himself and then going to visit the plant to see the run of Judges being built because my Uncle's told me so and it was a big deal. Remembering the day in late 1969 when my Uncles told me that GM was running LS-6 Chevelles and that they were "bad ass". My Uncle being in charge of the COPO cage at The plant for 16 years and knowing what that meant at 8 years old. It meant that he could figure out how to get a 427 Corvette motor installed in my other Uncle's 66 Super Sport when he "walked it down the line". Pallets of Rock Crusher Transmissions and crates of Big Blocks as far as my eyes could comprehend.

Man I remember Orbit Orange day on the 70 Judges.


That, my friends, is what I will miss.

[Fluid Power]

Jim,

With that being said, GM is a story in the history books of manufacturing in the United States. I just finished reading a book about the Crosley's, (the radio, the 'fridge, the car, owned the Reds, etc) They built all of those things in Cincinnati! EVERYTHING!

I have a customer that "manufacturers" rear ends for ATV's golf carts, JD Gators etc, the housings and internals are made in China, they are assembled here and qualify as being made in the USA. All they do is weld tabs on the housings and fill them with oil....

Sad story, not just for GM, but for manufacturing in general.


Darren

[Stuart Adams]

It's all positive for me, I'm hoping they come back better than ever. Lean and mean.

[tones2SS]

Yeah, it's really sad.
I wasn't born yet in the 60's, but I bet those days were real fun. It's too bad no one will see those days again, in my opinion. It's just too bad.:(

[Mick Mc]

I love and have loved all of GM's performance offerings...


But my theory is this

GM started on on the way down in late seventy's, early eighty's.
Back in the early 80's I remember hearing people saying my Toyota Corolla, pick-up etc lasted 200,000+ miles, this Toyota thing is very reliable...
About the same time GM was making garbage including the Citation and the crappy Corvette and other crappy almost electronic, very unreliable garbage they called vehicles. Side note Chrysler was making crap too called the K-car. And Ford was no better.
So as time when on people were still loyal to GM and started to get really disgusted with taking the car to the dealer all the time to get fixed, they started to pursue what they had been hearing now for at least 10 years about how reliable this 'other' car company was. This was the deciated GM buyer looking for a good quality car. They had stuck to their guns and bought 'American' but were fed up with all of the reliablilty issues (and lack of anything cool) and went out and purchased a Honda, Nissian or a Toyota.
Wow these foreign jobbers are cool and fast and reliable.
And now GM, among others, was seeing a declining market share because of problems they had a decade ago. Marketing and preception take a long time to work but it all comes around.
Becareful of the crappy product you produce today because tomorrow it will bite you in the a$$.


Mick

[Mick Mc]

I just heard the argument that if GM had of just produced cars that got better gas mileage everything would have worked out. The gas mileage argument works for o'bama and the CAFE regulations but not in real life.

Everyone knows that Hometown buffet is bad for you, but the place is packed. Healthy food is good for you. Hometown buffet has a packed parking lot everyday, and evey person I've seen walk out the door (I drive buy one at least once a week) is 425, and no thats not metric.

GM made cars and trucks that people wanted to buy.
Yes, it's funny to see a guy driving a four door, one ton, without a scratch in the bed, on the way to the office in the morning.
The cars people should have been buying were the high gas mileage, but no, then 'need' and 'deserve' a ten miles to a gallon H2, and the advertising said it was way safer than a compact car.
People were buying what they wanted not what they needed, it's a free country that's why I love this place. Everyone can make their own decisions.

CAFE regulations forced the car companies to produce something like twenty econo-boxes for every non gas mileage vehicle they produced. So for every one ton truck GM had to produce twenty Cobalt's. Thanks, I'm from the govenment and we're here to help you...

Planned obsolescence.
Remember when GM make the 73 truck? The truck didn't really change untill 1981 and technically it didn't change until 1989.
The Camaro was 70 1/2 thru 1983 (I think)
Today the truck, and all of the models, changes every couple of years. I was just beginning to like one body style and now they have something completly dirrerent.

What is this the cell phone model?
I take my phone in to the phone store and the gum smaking, hold on a second I'm texting my girl friend (either saving the world or making a million dollar deal) rolling her eyes and tells me my one year old phone is sooo ooold, they don't even make aaaanthing for ttthat model anymore.


Financing
How could I not want a new car every 2.4 years (yes it's a true national average).
I get a rebate and the interest rate is soooo low.
Oh you want to lease a car now you can afford twice as much car.
GM forced me buy a new truck, yea it's their fault...


Mick

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

I just heard the argument that if GM had of just produced cars that got better gas mileage everything would have worked out. The gas mileage argument works for o'bama and the CAFE regulations but not in real life.

Everyone knows that Hometown buffet is bad for you, but the place is packed. Healthy food is good for you. Hometown buffet has a packed parking lot everyday, and evey person I've seen walk out the door (I drive buy one at least once a week) is 425, and no thats not metric.

GM made cars and trucks that people wanted to buy.
Yes, it's funny to see a guy driving a four door, one ton, without a scratch in the bed, on the way to the office in the morning.
The cars people should have been buying were the high gas mileage, but no, then 'need' and 'deserve' a ten miles to a gallon H2, and the advertising said it was way safer than a compact car.
People were buying what they wanted not what they needed, it's a free country that's why I love this place. Everyone can make their own decisions.

CAFE regulations forced the car companies to produce something like twenty econo-boxes for every non gas mileage vehicle they produced. So for every one ton truck GM had to produce twenty Cobalt's. Thanks, I'm from the govenment and we're here to help you...

Planned obsolescence.
Remember when GM make the 73 truck? The truck didn't really change untill 1981 and technically it didn't change until 1989.
The Camaro was 70 1/2 thru 1983 (I think)
Today the truck, and all of the models, changes every couple of years. I was just beginning to like one body style and now they have something completly dirrerent.

What is this the cell phone model?
I take my phone in to the phone store and the gum smaking, hold on a second I'm texting my girl friend (either saving the world or making a million dollar deal) rolling her eyes and tells me my one year old phone is sooo ooold, they don't even make aaaanthing for ttthat model anymore.


Financing
How could I not want a new car every 2.4 years (yes it's a true national average).
I get a rebate and the interest rate is soooo low.
Oh you want to lease a car now you can afford twice as much car.
GM forced me buy a new truck, yea it's their fault...


Mick

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/19026/801356-lolwut_1__super.jpg

[SWAPMEETCRAZY]

I just heard the argument that if GM had of just produced cars that got better gas mileage everything would have worked out. The gas mileage argument works for o'bama and the CAFE regulations but not in real life.

Everyone knows that Hometown buffet is bad for you, but the place is packed. Healthy food is good for you. Hometown buffet has a packed parking lot everyday, and evey person I've seen walk out the door (I drive buy one at least once a week) is 425, and no thats not metric.

GM made cars and trucks that people wanted to buy.
Yes, it's funny to see a guy driving a four door, one ton, without a scratch in the bed, on the way to the office in the morning.
The cars people should have been buying were the high gas mileage, but no, then 'need' and 'deserve' a ten miles to a gallon H2, and the advertising said it was way safer than a compact car.
People were buying what they wanted not what they needed, it's a free country that's why I love this place. Everyone can make their own decisions.

CAFE regulations forced the car companies to produce something like twenty econo-boxes for every non gas mileage vehicle they produced. So for every one ton truck GM had to produce twenty Cobalt's. Thanks, I'm from the govenment and we're here to help you...

Planned obsolescence.
Remember when GM make the 73 truck? The truck didn't really change untill 1981 and technically it didn't change until 1989.
The Camaro was 70 1/2 thru 1983 (I think)
Today the truck, and all of the models, changes every couple of years. I was just beginning to like one body style and now they have something completly dirrerent.

What is this the cell phone model?
I take my phone in to the phone store and the gum smaking, hold on a second I'm texting my girl friend (either saving the world or making a million dollar deal) rolling her eyes and tells me my one year old phone is sooo ooold, they don't even make aaaanthing for ttthat model anymore.


Financing
How could I not want a new car every 2.4 years (yes it's a true national average).
I get a rebate and the interest rate is soooo low.
Oh you want to lease a car now you can afford twice as much car.
GM forced me buy a new truck, yea it's their fault...


Mick

Damn Mick ---i couldn't have said it better!!!
Talked to the owner of the 2nd largest seller of Gmc's in louisiana today
and he showed me his "I GET TO STAY THIS ROUND " letter. written in single person tone but signed "SINCERELY, GENERAL MOTORS CORPORATION"--got him worried about next round of dealer cuts!! He was on a closed circuit meeting yesterday and new gm bigdogs say they will cut down from 1800 Caddy dealers to 800!!! jim :wow:

[ProTouring442]

You know, it really gets to me when people bash American car companies for building "crap," and how this is what caused their problems because people "remember." Give it a break, that ain't it because if it were, people wouldn't be buying anything. Remember those nice 1970's and 1980's Nissans (Datsuns) that practically rusted on the showroom floor? Or the Hondas that has 2.5 hp in a car just large enough you could get a 5 year old in them? Sit inside one of those 1970's or 1980's imports and feel the quality of a dashboard constructed of polystyrene!

Now, GM, Ford, and Chrysler have built some crap, but so have all of the import manufacturers! And look at the sales numbers!

1980
Citation: 811,540
Phoenix: 179,291

1981
Escort: 320,000

1982
Escort/EXP: 483,388
Cutlass Ciera: 281,451
Lynx: 119,000
Chevette: 169,000
Mustang: 130,000

1983
Thunderbird: 122,000
Escort: 315,370
Mustang: 120,873
Fairmont LTD: 155,758

Now some of these cars had problems for sure, but no more than any other vehicle. What they did have was a news media that seems to hate American cars! As an example, I remember one news guy pushing on the urethane bumper cover on a Cadillac and commenting on how you would "never see this sort of poor quality on an import." What?!? The bumper is urethane so it WILL flex! But of course, the public believes them.

My family and I have owned a myriad of domestic cars, many of which had hundreds of thousands of miles on them before they were sold or retired. In fact, some of my best cars were purchased at the 100,000 mile mark!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[legend]

i think the problems stem from the lack of profit made on each car, allegedly GM make $40 on a full size SUV, so the volume required to make it worthwhile is huge, soon as people worry about affording the new model and decide to keep their car for longer it all crumbles

toyota/nissan try to make every worker feel vital to the company, and every nissan exec has to work at least 2 weeks on the line with the workers to gain empathy with the workforce.

however all the other manufacturers are in trouble too, as people are not buying new cars. but many companies don't have the huge pension/healthcare responsibilities that the US makers have

[Mick Mc]

You know, it really gets to me when people bash American car companies for building "crap," and how this is what caused their problems because people "remember." Give it a break, that ain't it because if it were, people wouldn't be buying anything. Remember those nice 1970's and 1980's Nissans (Datsuns) that practically rusted on the showroom floor? Or the Hondas that has 2.5 hp in a car just large enough you could get a 5 year old in them? Sit inside one of those 1970's or 1980's imports and feel the quality of a dashboard constructed of polystyrene!

Now, GM, Ford, and Chrysler have built some crap, but so have all of the import manufacturers! And look at the sales numbers!

1980
Citation: 811,540
Phoenix: 179,291

1981
Escort: 320,000

1982
Escort/EXP: 483,388
Cutlass Ciera: 281,451
Lynx: 119,000
Chevette: 169,000
Mustang: 130,000

1983
Thunderbird: 122,000
Escort: 315,370
Mustang: 120,873
Fairmont LTD: 155,758

Now some of these cars had problems for sure, but no more than any other vehicle. What they did have was a news media that seems to hate American cars! As an example, I remember one news guy pushing on the urethane bumper cover on a Cadillac and commenting on how you would "never see this sort of poor quality on an import." What?!? The bumper is urethane so it WILL flex! But of course, the public believes them.

My family and I have owned a myriad of domestic cars, many of which had hundreds of thousands of miles on them before they were sold or retired. In fact, some of my best cars were purchased at the 100,000 mile mark!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill



So Bill
Everyone was building crap, you proved that, and GM has lost market share since 1980, I showed that in my graph.

Then what was GM's down fall?

I think GM has been making better quality cars since OBDII, 1996, and you have been buying domestic cars and putting thousands of miles on them.
So why was GM's market share decreasing, when we know the overall market was growing and GM even owned the finance company to get people financed?

What was GM's down fall?


Just because a news guy says something is not going to drive market share down.
Even JD Powers rates domestic cars as good quality in fit finish and reliability etc.


What was GM's down fall?



Mick

[ProTouring442]

So Bill
Everyone was building crap, you proved that, and GM has lost market share since 1980, I showed that in my graph.

Then what was GM's down fall?

I think GM has been making better quality cars since OBDII, 1996, and you have been buying domestic cars and putting thousands of miles on them.
So why was GM's market share decreasing, when we know the overall market was growing and GM even owned the finance company to get people financed?

What was GM's down fall?


Just because a news guy says something is not going to drive market share down.
Even JD Powers rates domestic cars as good quality in fit finish and reliability etc.


What was GM's down fall?



Mick

The market share argument looks good on the surface, but upon closer inspection it falls apart. In 1960 you had the following market in the US:

GM
Cadillac
Buick
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Chevrolet
GMC

Ford
Lincoln
Mercury
Edsel
Ford

Crhrysler
Imperial
Chrysler
DeSoto
Dodge
Plymouth

Other
Rambler
Studebaker
Metropolitan
Checker

Imports
Volkswagen
Mercedes Benz
Porsche
Triumph
MG
Jaguar

Today you have:

GM
Cadillac
Hummer
Buick
Pontiac
Chevrolet
Saturn
GMC

Ford
Lincoln
Mercury
Ford

Chrysler
Chrysler
Dodge
Jeep

Toyota
Lexus
Toyota
Scion

Nissan
Infinity
Nissan

Honda
Acura
Honda

Other American
None

Other Import
BMW
Mercedes Benz
Mini
Jaguar
Mazda
Kia
Hyundai
Audi
Volvo
Saab
Land Rover
Porsche
Subaru

While a few of these are niche vehicles, we still have quite a few more mainstream manufacturers in the marketplace, and thus a smaller marketshare.

The media is certainly part of the problem as they have a history of covering the American auto industry with a definite bias. Examples? The Pinto which, as it turns out, had just about the same rate of people dieing in fires as pretty much any other car. So why did we get so many stories about the Pinto back in the 70's? Then there are the GM pickups that "burst into flames." Only they didn't, and so the media faked it. Of course there was the Corvair...

Now, couple the above with the fact that only the "Big Three" has had to contend with the persistent and onerous Auto Unions and their increasingly unrealistic contracts, the US Automakers found themselves in an untenable position.

Could GM have fought these contracts? Sure, but to what end? The media nearly always sided with the unions when it came to their coverage so the negative press was massive, and the losses sustained in attempting to counter the unions was phenomenal. In one two month strike in the early 70's GM lost over 40 BILLION in sales revenue!

So what killed GM? See the above! These factors helped create a situation wherein the profit per car was simply too small. Think about it, in 1957 Oldsmobile managed to be profitable selling only 384,000 cars while in 1995 their fate was being sealed by a lack of profit, while selling 372,000 cars. Worse, there is a greater number of shared components in the 1995 cars which should have lead to increased profitability.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[lawbreaker2]

Never had a Import and never will. I have always had a chevy or GMC or ford truck, right now I have a 1999 ford f150 with 175,000 miles and run like a champ and a 2000 f250 diesel with 166,000 miles and a 01 pt cruzer with 52,000 and never had problems with them infact when I traded my 91 chevy blazer in for a ford ranger it had 320,000 miles on it.:hail: But I don't trade my stuff in in 2 years either, I drive it till it's about to fall apart.:thumbsup:

[lawbreaker2]

Oh and the wife want either a new mustang shelby or a challenger srt this year.:bow: Yes!!!!!!

[tones2SS]

Oh and the wife want either a new mustang shelby or a challenger srt this year.:bow: Yes!!!!!!

VERY NICE!!! Go with the Challenger SRT. Great deals on those right now!!
Me and my family will not drive anything but American cars.:yes:
I get really annoyed when people say that because they bought a foreign car, that had nothing to do with GM/Chrysler going bankrupt. WHHAAATT?!?!
Of course it does!! It's not the whole reason I know, but PART of the reason. Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it!! lol:yes: :thumbsup:

[70rs]

I have owned imports and domestic cars both. I have had equal reliability with both and really can't remember either being better or worse other than some paint issues with GMs and Fords from the 80sand early 90s.

I do prefer GM trucks and for the last 8-10 years that is all I have had for daily drivers. I also worked construction so a truck was needed regardless of fuel economy. A half ton Toyota or Nissan is NOT the same as a half ton GM or Ford. I have a 2000 Chev 4x4 ext cab Z-71 now. Bought it with 96k on it, it now has 160k and I have only had to do the rear brakes and a tune up.
I do not think quality is the reason for loosing market share. The market is flooded with auto makers so there is a smaller piece of the pie to be had for all of them.

At this point with half ton trucks pushing the 50k mark (loaded) it is just not something I or a lot of people can afford.
I buy my vehicles used. I buy them (try to anyway) one or two years old still under warantee. It saves me THOUSANDS and I still get the vehicle I want but at a payment I can afford.
I think all of the auto makers (including foriegn) have priced too many consumers out of thier products. I think this is due to MANY factors. Union wages , retirement packages, insurance costs, raw materials costs, energy costs, advertising costs and everything on down the line to toilet paper in the restrooms. I don't blame the auto makers for this. It is a global problem with eveyone wanting to make an extra buck no matter what they sell or service they provide.
For the record, I do not have any problem with the wage any person earns. If you can get that job more power to you.
Just my .02, thanks for reading my ramble.