When does too much Racing influence hurt the Value of a Car

[tyoneal]

To All:

I had typed this for the most part in another part of the forum, so here it is in it's own title.

Pro-Touring (Penny) vs. Street Driven Race Car. Why so much difference in price?

You take a nice Pro-Touring car like "Penny", and to buy one you would spend say 100k.

You Take the same year Camaro that is closer to a Race Car, but it has an interior like a "Nice" Race Car, or even a car with a similar interior to "Penny".

Why would one be worth 100k, and the other be worth only a fraction of that?

I could be wrong, but it seems like a new Race Cars (NO Racing History) will have a much lessor value than a Pro Touring of the same year.

One is faster and lighter etc., the other has a more comfortable interior and a more subtle engine.

OR

If the Race Car was Equipped with more creature comforts would it have an equal value?

Any and all thoughts are welcome.

Thanks,

Ty

[TreySmith]

The attention to detail in a Pro Touring car is so much greater than your average race car.

[Vegas69]

Here are some of the reasons:
High dollar paint jobs
Custom interior work
Gobs and gobs of money for the attention to detail
AC
Quality sound system
Body Mods
Extent of the restoration

[mazspeed]

Here are some of the reasons:
High dollar paint jobs
Custom interior work
Gobs and gobs of money for the attention to detail
AC
Quality sound system
Body Mods
Extent of the restoration

Exactly.
My pro-7 car cost $12k total, plus blood sweat and tears. My camaro cost much much more, and the pro-7 car would take my camaro in the autocross for certain.

[Roadrage David]

Race history can give your car more valiuew.
look at Bad Penny altho superb build it is out there doind what it iz made for.

Bj proving that, it ""wil"" carry that history with it and thats worth up the car.
If you would have lets say 100 k for a superb brand new Pro-touring car with 150 miles on it. And ore you could lets say buy Bad Penny witch is lesser build in luxury and shows it use. witch one would you buy????. I would go for the proven one.

Im doing the same thing with my car right now, it hase 1500 miles on it. its is brand new costed a fortune, yet i dont baby it and try to enter evends we did a time atackt event(testing) some drag raceing at the same event. all in preperation for the cannonball runn necst year( we are just not able to do it this year) belive me the car alredy hase its paint chips and stuff. and necst year it wil hase lost its show and shine beauty belive me . BUT that ads up the caracter of the car!! and shows its history..

At this momend it is still All Show and all go, but that will change into all go soon. will this devaluate the car ??? .
Only in the eye of the beholder , and ore for the show and shine guys, who say, and ore own a car that in TEORY can do it all Yet hase never done it. These Pro-touring G-Mashine cars are made to be driven and i mean driven hard.

[XcYZ]

A car built with race car influence and a car being built to race a specific class are two totally different things. It's apples to oranges.

Personally, if I wanted to build a race car, it wouldn't have fenders. :D

[MarkM66]

Example of to much race car in a street car, and affecting the price.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=11291&highlight=hell

[Datsbad]

I think you will find that Penny does not have Air conditiong , or heat . And no stereo system . I think this is the reason why the car weighs much less than our cars that are done and made to drive across country. Penny is about 500 lbs lighter than most .

I love Penny in everyway but It is mostly a "Very Nice " race car.

[James OLC]

As has been said a couple of times already, I think that the difference is primarily in the detail, finishing, and comfort. You could build a dedicated race car that is significantly lighter, faster, and simpler than most 'conventional' pro-touring "drivers" for a fraction of the cost - if that is what you want. The increased cost, and the derived increased value, comes from the fit, finish, comfort and usability. You can invest hundreds if not thousands of hours in detail work that is unwanted or undesired in a more race oriented build.

And... the market for a drivable pro-touring car - say FUeL (since G-Force built an awesome example there) is much larger than the market would be for a street legal race car. FUeL appeals to a much larger group of people since it is attractive, comfortable, and sorted out. This is especially true if there is limited access to racing venues available. A person can justify investing more in a car that they can drive any where, any time, without drama than they will as car that is uncomfortable (but tolerable) and often unusable.

Just my opinion.

[Stuart Adams]

To All:

I had typed this for the most part in another part of the forum, so here it is in it's own title.

Pro-Touring (Penny) vs. Street Driven Race Car. Why so much difference in price?

You take a nice Pro-Touring car like "Penny", and to buy one you would spend say 100k.

You Take the same year Camaro that is closer to a Race Car, but it has an interior like a "Nice" Race Car, or even a car with a similar interior to "Penny".

Why would one be worth 100k, and the other be worth only a fraction of that?

I could be wrong, but it seems like a new Race Cars (NO Racing History) will have a much lessor value than a Pro Touring of the same year.

One is faster and lighter etc., the other has a more comfortable interior and a more subtle engine.

OR

If the Race Car was Equipped with more creature comforts would it have an equal value?

Any and all thoughts are welcome.

Thanks,

Ty

I do believe the more you take a car out in public and pound the hell out of, reduces the value at resale, IMO.

[Vegas69]

I'd have to disagree. In my mind, you need to prove your car is sorted out and has the performance intended to get good money especially now. If I've seen that your car can run a quick quarter mile, compete at the auto cross, and make it around the road course without falling apart. Then I'd pay way more than a car that sits in the garage and goes to car shows. But I am more about the driving aspect than sitting in a lawn chair at a car show.

[XLexusTech]

I have an interesting thought. My car if it were intended to be a pro-touring car would be getting 95% of the sheet metal replaced.

Since it will be more of a street fighter/ Race car I will be repairing some panels.
Partially because I expect I might bang them up anyway.
I wont be getting a 15K paint job, I wont be purchasing a 25k power plant for the same power I can make for 10K simply because that's the hot setup this month in the pro touring scene or what will bring more resale $$$.

I wont spend close to 10K on wheels and tires. I wont have a 3K gauge cluster I wont have a hand fabricated anything unless I make it myself.

So basically a nice PT car cost more so therefore they sell for more .. Some will say your getting more. Some will say they don't need the more the $$ buys.

It's all a matter of getting what you want an enjoying what you have :thumbsup:

[Stuart Adams]

I'd have to disagree. In my mind, you need to prove your car is sorted out and has the performance intended to get good money especially now. If I've seen that your car can run a quick quarter mile, compete at the auto cross, and make it around the road course without falling apart. Then I'd pay way more than a car that sits in the garage and goes to car shows. But I am more about the driving aspect than sitting in a lawn chair at a car show.

Sorted out and a few passes in the quarter and the autocross to see if the car stays together is a given in my mind. That's is all in the fun and I agree with you. Maybe I read the post wrong, about value and race cars, I meant a car used and abused with alot of racing miles will be less valuable. I'm sure there is a fine line perceptually between too much and too hard and resale. Also the guy buying the car will probably ponder that maybe the owner has sorted the car out and that is WHY he is selling it, for something better.

[James OLC]

I think that there is a balance between Todd and Stuart for sure...

I personally see added value in a car actually doing everything that is capable of doing (hence my building what I did and it's ultimate purpose) however, Stuart is absolutely right that every time a car is on the road, track, or beween the cones it gets worn - physically and mechnically. Cone rash wipes off, brushing a water barrier might not so much... sand, gravel, bugs wind and sun will all take their toll. Brakes get eaten up, bushings, bearings and grears see wear...

Maintenance (I think) comes into play here - BP for instance looks as good today as it did when it came out of BoS over a year ago - but eventually wear will erode value. That is definately where a "used" track oriented car's value will take a hit - the cost of freshening an experienced race car can be steep.

[Vegas69]

Good points....so the key is to enjoy the car, prove it's performance, race it all you want, just don't let the public know past a point. Then freshen her up for sale.:unibrow: I have to say I like the idea of some wear on a car. We all know how much that first chip hurts. When I look at my car now, it has a few blemishes on the front from road debris and rocks thrown up on the lower fenders. She's still pretty just has a few scars from use. I have to say it doesn't bother me. The enjoyment of driving the car far out weighs the wear and tear. The cars we are discussing will always be maintained immaculately. We are all just to crazy about our cars not to keep them in tip top shape.:thumbsup:

[J2SpeedandCustom]

I agree with Stuart as a "used" car is just that. But a broken in car is a must when going to sell. Does "broken-in" constitute racing, auto-x, drag, etc I personally don't think so.
I think you have to consider the buying public on these types of cars. We have a small community here and for the most part people that want these cars don't know what and LS2 is let along ever been on a track/autox, etc. So when you build a more track oriented car these people aren't going to "get" it. I've listened to many people walk by a car and say, "I'd never own a car with a rollbar thingy". :lol:

[96z28ss]

I think it depends on alot of factors, way too many to discuss. I think it also comes down to what anyone person is willing to pay for the car.

Does the value of John Parsons's "II Much" get hurt by the race inspired look.

Did the value Bob Johnson's "G-force Cuda get hurt being driven when it sold at Barrett Jackson.

Would the value of lets say "the Mule" be hurt by being on multiple Hot Rod Power tours and seeing some track time?

[Stuart Adams]

Good points....so the key is to enjoy the car, prove it's performance, race it all you want, just don't let the public know past a point. Then freshen her up for sale.:unibrow: I have to say I like the idea of some wear on a car. We all know how much that first chip hurts. When I look at my car now, it has a few blemishes on the front from road debris and rocks thrown up on the lower fenders. She's still pretty just has a few scars from use. I have to say it doesn't bother me. The enjoyment of driving the car far out weighs the wear and tear. The cars we are discussing will always be maintained immaculately. We are all just to crazy about our cars not to keep them in tip top shape.:thumbsup:

I sure like your car.:thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

Thanks Stuart:cheers: I didn't build it to sell it anyway...I built it to drive the wheels off it.:unibrow: :thumbsup: If I lose 50k...I'll make damn sure I get that much pleasure.

[Stuart Adams]

Thanks Stuart:cheers: I didn't build it to sell it anyway...I built it to drive the wheels off it.:unibrow: :thumbsup: If I lose 50k...I'll make damn sure I get that much pleasure.

Sounds great. Better than loosing 200K in a house, that is just a bed, shower and microwave, and no wheels. LOL.

[JamesJ]

Not sure if this is what you are asking, but if you want to know why a race car would sell for less is that it is just unpractical to most people.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Does the value of John Parsons's "II Much" get hurt by the race inspired look.
Yes it does. Parson's car has been for sale a couple times and struggles to get near the amount of money it would take to duplicate. I swear if we painted it Tangelo Orange and put some shinny wheels on it, along with some trim, it would bring way more money. John and I have talked it to death, been together around the car. It simply is too subtle. An amazing car, but no "eyes" as we call it in the business. He knows so I am not speaking out of church.
So what is he doing? he is keeping it! Added A/C, got rid of the race inspired pulley set up and did a Front Runner, It has a stereo and interior, look for a wheel and trim change, even talked about a color change some day. But that is a far stretch

Did the value Bob Johnson's "G-force Cuda get hurt being driven when it sold at Barrett Jackson. I do not think it helped that is was driven, but even though it was driven, that car was run through Alan's shop just before the auction and was pretty damn crisp. Not all of us could afford to do that

Would the value of lets say "the Mule" be hurt by being on multiple Hot Rod Power tours and seeing some track time? Only the wear and tear on it, the Mule is starting to show it's miles just a bit, and Charlie has a real good time doing it. But it does not help the value at all.

Now the BIG exception, I disgree with you on one car Stuart. You talked about cars getting beat up and not bringing the money cause their raced to death!

I bet dollars to donuts if Stacy put her car for sale (which has been rode hard and put up wet, although maintained) it would set a world record for a car of its condition! Probably bring twice what anyone else in the world could get for the same car.

Anyway, to answer the original posters question, to much race inspiration will hurt ultimate value unless it is custom built for the owner. Resale is limited at best.

[clill]

Just over 11,000 miles on the Mule. I have gotten my moneys worth of enjoyment out of it. Over 20,000 miles on the Red Witch. Ditto on the enjoyment. Buying someones show car and then trying to use it usually ends up being you that has to sort out all the problems. I would rather have a car that has had some use and avoid all the headaches.

[Stuart Adams]

Does the value of John Parsons's "II Much" get hurt by the race inspired look.
Yes it does. Parson's car has been for sale a couple times and struggles to get near the amount of money it would take to duplicate. I swear if we painted it Tangelo Orange and put some shinny wheels on it, along with some trim, it would bring way more money. John and I have talked it to death, been together around the car. It simply is too subtle. An amazing car, but no "eyes" as we call it in the business. He knows so I am not speaking out of church.
So what is he doing? he is keeping it! Added A/C, got rid of the race inspired pulley set up and did a Front Runner, It has a stereo and interior, look for a wheel and trim change, even talked about a color change some day. But that is a far stretch

Did the value Bob Johnson's "G-force Cuda get hurt being driven when it sold at Barrett Jackson. I do not think it helped that is was driven, but even though it was driven, that car was run through Alan's shop just before the auction and was pretty damn crisp. Not all of us could afford to do that

Would the value of lets say "the Mule" be hurt by being on multiple Hot Rod Power tours and seeing some track time? Only the wear and tear on it, the Mule is starting to show it's miles just a bit, and Charlie has a real good time doing it. But it does not help the value at all.

Now the BIG exception, I disgree with you on one car Stuart. You talked about cars getting beat up and not bringing the money cause their raced to death!

I bet dollars to donuts if Stacy put her car for sale (which has been rode hard and put up wet, although maintained) it would set a world record for a car of its condition! Probably bring twice what anyone else in the world could get for the same car.

Anyway, to answer the original posters question, to much race inspiration will hurt ultimate value unless it is custom built for the owner. Resale is limited at best.

Frank, I agree. And have believed that from day one about The 69 DSE camaro. That is what makes DSE so great, that car can be duplicated right out of their catalog or over the phone. That is what makes them so successful, its tried and tested. The blue 69 I had was set up just like that car, except for the motor right out of the catalog. Alot of guys, me at one time, buy multiple individual parts put them all together, test them, change this, change that, modify this, buy new that, etc etc. and finally after 2 years they have a dialed in car. They have done the work for us, plug and play in my book.

[Vegas69]

The Mule with 11k is very attractive. Tried and true and you could actually buy it and drive it.:thumbsup: What about the history of these cars. I have to compare it to an all original. It's been on TV, multiple power tours, multiple videos, someone is salivating over this car just waiting for a chance to buy it.

I do think what the original poster was actually asking is how far towards a race car can you go with your restoration and not limit the market. I think that has been answered here. It has to be competent on any track and capable of a power tour with the AC on and your favorite tunes playing in comfort.

[Stuart Adams]

The Mule will always be a special car to me no matter what the mileage

[Steve Chryssos]

Remember the end of the Blues Brothers? Where the car gets them to their destination and then completely disintegrates? Those boys got their money's worth. Best to just keep your car, drive it into the ground, rebuild it. Repeat process over and over again.

A priceless car is one that's not for sale at any price. :yes:

[Roadrage David]

get this!!! http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=SC0509-79418
race history wil give more valieuw afther decade,s
who will remember a bad Penny that never done anything then standing still being a beauty in 20 ore 30 years from now.. im pretty sure she will be with what she is doing today..
chek out Big Red Camaro. that car will be priceless in a couple of decade,s...

[tyoneal]

To All:

I'll try to firm this up a bit. Based on your input. (Pre 1976 Car allow a lot of leeway with the engines used on the cars)

There are "2 Types of Pro Touring Cars"

1) Racing Styles of Pro Touring Cars

An older (car prior to 1976) custom race car built to be run on the street, "Legally", but can also drive safely on multiple racetracks. Specific racing classes are not part of a Pro-touring cars, however some are designed to emulate specific Road Racing classes of the past, that help improve the overall theme and feel of the cars.

2) Street Styles of Pro Touring Cars

Cars (Originally built prior to 1976) that have conveniences normally associated with street only driven cars (a/c, P/S, P/B, Tilt Wheel, Carpet, comfortable seats etc.) However, these cars will also have successfully implemented many facets of racing technology. (Race inspired suspensions, brakes, engines etc.) The two technologies are balanced in an effort to create a comfortable fast and well handling sports car.

===================================
Values of Both Types

Both Styles of Pro Touring Cars should bring comparable values based on the levels of finish, fit and components used in the build, along with the Type and Year of cars used. Last but not least, what the buyer is willing to pay for the car.

==================================

Please let me know if this is fairly accurate based on the earlier references in this post.

Essentially, true "Pro Touring" cars should bring similar values. Deviations from one way or the other from these boundaries will create from a small to large deviations from the normal Valuation of these cars.

Does this satisfy the question?

if not,

Let me know where I'm wrong.

Thanks,

Ty

[Steve Chryssos]

I think you are hyper-analyzing the subject, Ty. You can't do that with a hot rod. One might be inclined to combine 1 and 2.
In most cases, classification is a pendulum. Car A might lean towards the race side of the equation while car B might lean towards the street side of the equation.

[clill]

Both of you are giving me a headache...:willy:

[Van B]

The blue 69 I had was set up just like that car, except for the motor right out of the catalog.

The blue 69 you had? Is it gone already?

[Steve Chryssos]

HE started!
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2978921/2/istockphoto_2978921-toddlers-fighting.jpg

[James OLC]

I think you are hyper-analyzing the subject, Ty. You can't do that with a hot rod. One might be inclined to combine 1 and 2.
In most cases, classification is a pendulum. Car A might lean towards the race side of the equation while car B might lean towards the street side of the equation.

Agreed

[10Seconds]

To All:

I'll try to firm this up a bit. Based on your input. (Pre 1976 Car allow a lot of leeway with the engines used on the cars)

There are "2 Types of Pro Touring Cars"

1) Racing Styles of Pro Touring Cars

An older (car prior to 1976) custom race car built to be run on the street, "Legally", but can also drive safely on multiple racetracks. Specific racing classes are not part of a Pro-touring cars, however some are designed to emulate specific Road Racing classes of the past, that help improve the overall theme and feel of the cars.

2) Street Styles of Pro Touring Cars

Cars (Originally built prior to 1976) that have conveniences normally associated with street only driven cars (a/c, P/S, P/B, Tilt Wheel, Carpet, comfortable seats etc.) However, these cars will also have successfully implemented many facets of racing technology. (Race inspired suspensions, brakes, engines etc.) The two technologies are balanced in an effort to create a comfortable fast and well handling sports car.

....

Let me know where I'm wrong.

Thanks,

Ty

You analysis is inherently flawed. You state there are only two type of PT cars. Yet, according to you, both type exclude makes build after 1976.

Where did you come up with pre-1976? That's B.S. IMO. So my 1978 Trans Am can't be a PT car?

[tyoneal]

I think you are hyper-analyzing the subject, Ty. You can't do that with a hot rod. One might be inclined to combine 1 and 2.
In most cases, classification is a pendulum. Car A might lean towards the race side of the equation while car B might lean towards the street side of the equation.
=================================
Steve the reason I chose to look at the Pro Touring cars this way is because it seams that Ford (Cobra vs. LV? Model) Both could get many of the same major options.

GM Camaro Z/28 all the way down to the straight six. (Also for a while a Berliinetta)

GM Firebird: Trans AM, Formula, Firebird, Skybird

Corvette: Std vs. Z06 )I would believe different demographics as well.

Most of the Cars are grouped into at least 2 Segaments. The first segment is a more Racing Oriented model. Much more wild graphics, different exhaust note, wider wheels etc.

The second segment is toned down a fair amount visually, and in most cases some of the performance is toned down as well. That said it is also possible in many instances that the same engine and drive train can be had in the more subdued second style.

You can follow this same thing down many car lines all the way down to the economy version of the same body style.

There is enough data just on this website dealing with the 1st Generation Camaro's to to start seeing trends between the build I listed above, and, all of these are Hot Rods of one kind of another.

I will admit there is some gray involved.

From my perspective it appears that all the "Top" cars are slowly moving toward the "Race Car", side of the equation anyway, due to the fact of the technology being available to the aftermarket. Electronics, both in gauge technology, Track and car monitoring options. (Data Accumulation that would normally be found on a race car only a few years ago). Carbon Fiber used in Body Panels, engine parts, structural parts etc. Multiple 3 piece wheel options, Suspension offerings of all types that would normally be associated with Road Racing Applications.

The big difference between them is the presentation of the car.

Does this make sense?

Now would it be safe to say as long as the car has a good fit and finish and good parts, that it should bring a comparable valuation?

Ty

[tyoneal]

You analysis is inherently flawed. You state there are only two type of PT cars. Yet, according to you, both type exclude makes build after 1976.

Where did you come up with pre-1976? That's B.S. IMO. So my 1978 Trans Am can't be a PT car?
==================================
That is a good question, but one I did on purpose. Much of what makes these cars special is the ability to put any engine with any modification into it and still pass emissions for being, "Street Legal". That is the ONLY reason I did this because a PT car Has to be Street Legal, and having a PT car where you were unable to do anything substantial to the engine would put it at a substantial disadvantage. It wasn't meant as a personal thing, only a way of pairing down the types of cars that would be unlimited vs the ones that are not. Believe me, had I had a good example of a 1977-78 Trans Am 4sp. available and a few sheckles in my pocket, I would buy that puppy in a minute. One of my favorite cars of all time.

Please don't take offense, I promise none was intended. It was put in because of the Feds and no other reason.

I hope this helps, until they feds make it legal for pre 1980 cars to be unlimited, unfortunately I don't think it is a fair comparison for you at the time.

Ty

[tyoneal]

I think you are hyper-analyzing the subject, Ty. You can't do that with a hot rod. One might be inclined to combine 1 and 2.
In most cases, classification is a pendulum. Car A might lean towards the race side of the equation while car B might lean towards the street side of the equation.
============================
Steve:

Lets work with your statement, and put both cars into one category. Which car and why would bring the most money given each of them have a similar amount of money well spent on each of them?

Would a "Racing Style" 100k Pro touring Car bring more money than a 100k "Street Style" Pro Touring Car? and if so why?

My gut would tell me that they should be the same, however, I tend to like the Racing Style cars, so I would probably lean in that direction over the other one all things being considered.

Would this line of thinking fall in line with your thinking? If so, what % of People would you guess that would prefer one or the other? (I've seen a couple of the Trans AM style Penske 69 Camaro's. I think they are really striking and cool) Others might see them as to flashy.

I always dreamed (Since I was a little kid) of driving a race car on the street. ;-)

What can I say, "Boys and their Toys."

Ty

[Cread01]

==================================

Please don't take offense, I promise none was intended. It was put in because of the Feds and no other reason.

I hope this helps, until they feds make it legal for pre 1980 cars to be unlimited, unfortunately I don't think it is a fair comparison for you at the time.

Ty

when you say fed's you must mean the state where you live and not the federal government. In my state there aren't emissions laws to that extent so my 78 is street legal where in cali it wouldn't be.

no offense taken.... just stating

[clill]

Race cars are usually worth a fraction of what it costs to build them so if you build a race car, barely make it street legal and call it Pro-Touring I don't think you will get near as much as a street built Pro-Touring car that can also hold it's own at the track.

[70rs]

I think there is no definite answer to the original question. Far too many variables involved. The cars can not be compared "apples to apples" because the PT cars are so unique , no two are the same. A true race car can only be equally compared to another in it's own class (they are almost carbon copies of each other). So if you can't compare the cars, how can you determine which would hold it's value better than the other? How many NASCAR teams are spending the cash on leather interior, sound systems, air conditioning or let alone even carpet ? And how many PT cars are running ZERO interior except guages and a seat, crappy paint jobs, quick fill fuel systems (real ones), anyway you get the idea.
Not that my two cents is worth it but there ya go....
Thanks for reading my rant,
Eric:cheers:

[tyoneal]

I think there is no definite answer to the original question. Far too many variables involved. The cars can not be compared "apples to apples" because the PT cars are so unique , no two are the same. A true race car can only be equally compared to another in it's own class (they are almost carbon copies of each other). So if you can't compare the cars, how can you determine which would hold it's value better than the other? How many NASCAR teams are spending the cash on leather interior, sound systems, air conditioning or let alone even carpet ? And how many PT cars are running ZERO interior except guages and a seat, crappy paint jobs, quick fill fuel systems (real ones), anyway you get the idea.
Not that my two cents is worth it but there ya go....
Thanks for reading my rant,
Eric:cheers:
========================
Eric:

No Problem, I appreciate the dialog and you opinions. I'm putting some money away to start a new project, and I wanted to get an idea of the parameters of a PT car based on this group, and what was in their opinion the most valuable aspects of these cars. I for one enjoy these far more tat other kinds I have seen because of the latitude of options possible, and the fact that it is always evolving. Several years ago it would have been somewhat a rare site to see anything other than a 67-69 F-Body. Now there are many other cars having the, "Treatment" done to them. It's much more common to see cars up to and sometimes beyond the 1980's.

Anyway, I appreciate all who have contributed to this and helped me focus my own thoughts better.

BTW: Lateral-1 is Getting a Facelift, and a New name. More details will follow as soon as I have my renderings back and a few odds and ends finished.

Take care,

Ty

[Steve Chryssos]

I say the market numbers are 95%-plus in favor of "toned down" street style (to use your words). Based on that percentage, there is, essentially, no market for "racing style" pro-touring cars. Building a racing style pro-touring car is therefore a greater investment risk.

That won't stop me from building streetfighters or helping friends with their projects. The thought of changing II Much to make it more visible at a car show makes me GAK in my Yogurt Burst Cheerios.

[Steve1968LS2]

I say the market numbers are 95%-plus in favor of "toned down" street style (to use your words). Based on that percentage, there is, essentially, no market for "racing style" pro-touring cars. Building a racing style pro-touring car is therefore a greater investment risk.

That won't stop me from building streetfighters or helping friends with their projects. The thought of changing II Much to make it more visible at a car show makes me GAK in my Yogurt Burst Cheerios.

I think you're right.. nonetheless I get pretty regular offers to buy Penny.

I still say that this is a hobby, not an investment.. build what makes you happy and if you make money in the end just count that as a bonus.

[JV69z/28]

I still say that this is a hobby, not an investment.. build what makes you happy and if you make money in the end just count that as a bonus.

:yes: There is no better advise than that. :thumbsup:

[parsonsj]

The thought of changing II Much to make it more visible at a car show makes me GAK in my Yogurt Burst Cheerios.Well... let's put it this way: from a marketing point of view one should work to make one's product as attractive as possible, no?

I'm certainly not changing the car to win car show awards. However, there's no doubt that the car is very subtle, and much of what makes the car cool to me (and hopefully others) is that it is different. As I've learned, different hurts value.

So what am I doing to the car? So far, just the A/C (and it took months... word of advice: if you want A/C in your car, do it before wiring and paint). I redid the stereo because of the A/C, but it already had a stereo. Now the car boasts real working defrost, heat, and A/C, and a killer stereo (based on my iPhone). I can actually cruise in comfort now, and I've had the car out for some nice drives recently. I'd like to get to Sebring for a weekend of racing, but there's a new road race course right here in Orlando that I need to check out.

Wheel changes, and some trim and color changes are kind of in the works, though I really don't have funds for a full-boogie II Much v2 or some such.

As much as it might make the purists ruin their breakfast cereal :) , without selling the car, I have to find cool projects to do on it.

And remember, if you can't stand the thought of a more mainstream II Much, it's still for sale. Buy it and stop the madness!

:cheers:

jp

[JV69z/28]

:question: Ok if II Much isn't sellable as it sits (even after adding the A/C) where does that leave cars like the runner up CAR '69 LeMans Road Racer Corvette, the '69 #6 Sunoco LS2 Fikse Wheels Camaro, and George Poteet's '68 NASCAR Charger? Those cars are very much "racing influenced". It's just very hard to accept that there is no market for these cars. Limited yes but when you're talking 100K+ isn't the market limited anyway?

[Steve1968LS2]

Well... let's put it this way: from a marketing point of view one should work to make one's product as attractive as possible, no?

I'm certainly not changing the car to win car show awards. However, there's no doubt that the car is very subtle, and much of what makes the car cool to me (and hopefully others) is that it is different. As I've learned, different hurts value.

So what am I doing to the car? So far, just the A/C (and it took months... word of advice: if you want A/C in your car, do it before wiring and paint). I redid the stereo because of the A/C, but it already had a stereo. Now the car boasts real working defrost, heat, and A/C, and a killer stereo (based on my iPhone). I can actually cruise in comfort now, and I've had the car out for some nice drives recently. I'd like to get to Sebring for a weekend of racing, but there's a new road race course right here in Orlando that I need to check out.

Wheel changes, and some trim and color changes are kind of in the works, though I really don't have funds for a full-boogie II Much v2 or some such.

As much as it might make the purists ruin their breakfast cereal :) , without selling the car, I have to find cool projects to do on it.

And remember, if you can't stand the thought of a more mainstream II Much, it's still for sale. Buy it and stop the madness!

:cheers:

jp

Trade you.. :)

[parsonsj]

Ok if II Much isn't sellable as it sits (even after adding the A/C) where does that leave cars like the runner up CAR '69 LeMans Road Racer Corvette, the '69 #6 Sunoco LS2 Fikse Wheels Camaro, and George Poteet's '68 NASCAR Charger? Thanks very much for the implied compliment, but I don't think my car belongs in that league. I'd love to play with those guys, but I can't/don't.

jp

[parsonsj]

Trade you.. So let's talk. :)

jp

[Steve1968LS2]

So let's talk. :)

jp

lol... so tempting.. and I do write for a Nova magazine.. ;)

The irony is that Penny is more "race" that II Much.. it's just packaged in a more "mainstream" way.

When people want to buy her I generally end up working to talk them out of it.. "you do know there's no AC or heater.. right?" The door bars don't come off you know.. No, that's not a radio, that's a track computer. :lol:

[Vegas69]

Just like my earlier post....you have proved your car is a beast to be reckoned with and reliable. Every win adds to the cars history. I wouldn't be crazy about it on the street just because of the cage. However, it's a great street performer and mops em up on the race track. What more can a buyer ask for? I plan on doing the same. Not sure on you level but it will be respectable.

[tyoneal]

:yes: There is no better advise than that. :thumbsup:
================================
ALWAYS make what you like.

I agree 100%.

As the Economy has changed, I try to keep an eye on, "Mainstream", vs., "Out There". I enjoy the damn things so much if it was up to me I'd do one both ways, but any way you slice it, putting together a nice '69 Camaro, PT car together is not something for the weak of pocket book. In economic uncertainly, I tend to take less risk.

I will buy and put together something I'm crazy about, with a touch of "Out There" blended in, that can be toned down if needed. When I see a car that someone has just poured their heart out and money out into a killer car and something happens to them financially, and they have to get rid of it, I really feel for them when they are looking at $50,000-$100,000 Loss, when at that particular time in their lives they are needing the money the most.

I always give this some thought when I start anything that's going to take $70k+ money. I know many people, "Get your enjoyment out of it", that said however, when there are other people involved I am responsible for, I don't think it is a bad Idea to know going in a possible "OUT" plan in case something happens.

If the Economy firms up, so will my wallet, even thought I know at this point things will be a $100k or more when things are done.

Thanks

TY O'Neal

[Flash68]

:question: Ok if II Much isn't sellable as it sits

Who said it's not "sellable"? Maybe the asking price is just too high. We are in a recession/near depression after all....


but when you're talking 100K+ isn't the market limited anyway?

Yes, even in a good economy it is limited. And as mentioned above, we are not in a good economy.

[parsonsj]

Who said it's not "sellable"? Maybe the asking price is just too high.Obviously the asking price is higher than buyers want to pay, or it would have sold. Of course that's true. In other words, the OP's premise seems to be on the money (pardon the pun): too much racing influence can hurt the value of your hot rod.

jp

[Steve Chryssos]

There is more true beauty hiding in II Much's hood hinge/latch assembly than there is is most cars. It's a design conceived, fabricated and refined by the car's owner. Ditto on the front suspension, exhaust hangers and myriad other examples.

And there are people who appreciate this art form. There are people who can sniff it out from a casual "50 footer" glance. The know it when they see it.
The car's design elements were intentional. A reflection of the artist who created it.

The Mona Lisa's a hag! But she gets top billing. She has mainstream appeal. I'll pass, thank you.

[parsonsj]

Thanks Steve! Your opinion matters a lot to me. Makes my whole day. :woot:

jp

[clill]

Mona is a Babe...you just need to squint.

[Flash68]

Obviously the asking price is higher than buyers want to pay, or it would have sold. Of course that's true. In other words, the OP's premise seems to be on the money (pardon the pun): too much racing influence can hurt the value of your hot rod.

jp

With all due respect, I don't think it's a given that the "racing influence" is the reason for it not selling. It could very well just be the price. What was your last asking price, like $150k or 175k?

FWIW, I saw your car at SEMA 07 and absolutely loved it.

[Van B]

lol... so tempting.. and I do write for a Nova magazine.. ;)

The irony is that Penny is more "race" that II Much.. it's just packaged in a more "mainstream" way.

When people want to buy her I generally end up working to talk them out of it.. "you do know there's no AC or heater.. right?" The door bars don't come off you know.. No, that's not a radio, that's a track computer. :lol:

Send the prospects you turn down my way. I've got A/C and heat. :thumbsup:

[parsonsj]

It could very well just be the price. What was your last asking price, like $150k or 175k?

FWIW, I saw your car at SEMA 07 and absolutely loved it.Thanks! No, the current price is $115k.

I think that price is fair, but I realize as the car ages, it's value continues to decline. Oh well. FWIW, I'm having a lot of fun with the car, and my reason for selling the car (to build another one), might not have worked out so well. Life is busy these days with two active teenagers and all that entails. So just puttering around on the car, doing some "consulting", and the occasional fab job seems like enough for now.

jp

[JV69z/28]

There is more true beauty hiding in II Much's hood hinge/latch assembly than there is is most cars. It's a design conceived, fabricated and refined by the car's owner. Ditto on the front suspension, exhaust hangers and myriad other examples.

And there are people who appreciate this art form. There are people who can sniff it out from a casual "50 footer" glance. The know it when they see it.
The car's design elements were intentional. A reflection of the artist who created it.

The Mona Lisa's a hag! But she gets top billing. She has mainstream appeal. I'll pass, thank you.

:yes: The car is a terrific example of a purpose built pro-touring car with a "road race" theme. The car is outstanding. Anyone who has any clue of what they are looking at can see the craftsmanship and detail. The car has the "look". :drool: I believe it's the economy and it's overall effect on every day life that is holding back a sale not the painted bumpers or the black wheels. It's a h3ll of a lot of car for 115K. I hope things work out for how ever you want them to John. :thumbsup:

[tyoneal]

To All:

I don't know if any of you read PHR, ;-) but there was a right up recently about a guy taking a standard Laguna and gave it the, "Racing" Pro Touring, look.

Here is the article, give it a read and bounce it around. I think the car looks really cool. I certainly think it would be more expensive from it's initial appearance than one would think. Now of coarse the Truth you find in the details, but in any event, someone who is in the market for a 100k+ car may be wanting A LOT of attention.

Anyway here is the link and the ideas;

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0904phr_1975_chevy_laguna_parts_accessories/index.html

I'll have to admit, some are pretty clever.

Enjoy.

Ty

[Payton King]

But I know what you are speaking of John.

When I finished my car I was ready to sell, so I could move on and do the next one. Lots of ideas runnning around in my head. I found that after it was finished I have little to no time to build another. I spend most of my time tinkering and improving what I have....so I am with you on that one.

[Vegas69]

I've already found myself tweaking this or that from an aesthetics point of view. There are always improvements that can be made. It's going to take a while before I'm ready to build another. It's nice to go out and turn the key vs. lay on a creaper.

[Flash68]

Thanks! No, the current price is $115k.

I think that price is fair, but I realize as the car ages, it's value continues to decline. Oh well. FWIW, I'm having a lot of fun with the car, and my reason for selling the car (to build another one), might not have worked out so well. Life is busy these days with two active teenagers and all that entails. So just puttering around on the car, doing some "consulting", and the occasional fab job seems like enough for now.

jp

That price is very reasonable for that car I agree. :thumbsup:

But hey, sometimes things like your car not selling work out well and you just get to enjoy it for that much longer.

[rwhite692]

But I know what you are speaking of John.

When I finished my car I was ready to sell, so I could move on and do the next one. Lots of ideas runnning around in my head. I found that after it was finished I have little to no time to build another. I spend most of my time tinkering and improving what I have....so I am with you on that one.


This is exactly what happened with me...Sold my car(s) to buy my first house back in the early 90s, thinking I would just jump in and do it again, and with work/family/etc, have not had time to devote to it until these last few years. It will take me a long time to get it done the way I want it, but when it's done I am not going to let it go and be without having any hobby car around to enjoy...For me, 80% of the enjoyment is building them....So buying a finished car won't scratch my itch...

[tyoneal]

I think you are hyper-analyzing the subject, Ty. You can't do that with a hot rod. One might be inclined to combine 1 and 2.
In most cases, classification is a pendulum. Car A might lean towards the race side of the equation while car B might lean towards the street side of the equation.

===============================
Steve:

Hyper-analyzing. Yes, your right about it, but I thought it would be interesting to get other peoples take on things. Whether my car "Gets" its money back or not is my kids problem as I'll be enjoying PT up in heaven. (Hopefully)

The Riv, (Roadhouse Riviera) which I got from my Grandfather, its paint and body work alone are twice what they paid for it new. I do think a lot of these cars were are enjoying and making, will be part of car history. I bet it was hard for the Guy's in the Sixties thinking the, "Trans Am", cars they were racing would be worth anything someday, or how about the original Grand Sport Vettes. In the late sixties-early seventies, were "Has Beens". Old technology, uncompetitive junk that was kept outside in many cases. Now look at them.

I find everyones opinions real insightful. If you go on Youtube and check out all the American cars being enjoyed in Europe it is amazing. There is something about the American cars of the 50's-early 70's that hit a passion in people all over the world. Not sure what it is, but I find I'm proud about how they have been kept and enjoyed all these years. There are a few from Russia that by our standards are very so-so, but over there, they are the Cats Ass of Cool.

Back to your comment, I guess when I don't have the pleasure or opportunity of driving the cars, they stay on my mind as part of my enduring passion for them. I think it's a mix of DNA, Testosterone, and Adrenaline, that cause my Hyper-ness in this area.

No excuses, just a fact of maybe being a car geek/gear head or ???

Take care.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Ty

[tyoneal]

You analysis is inherently flawed. You state there are only two type of PT cars. Yet, according to you, both type exclude makes build after 1976.

Where did you come up with pre-1976? That's B.S. IMO. So my 1978 Trans Am can't be a PT car?
=============================
Thanks for the comment, Your Trans AM is or they definitely can be Great PT cars. The TA's and the Camaro's were about all there were back in the later 70's (Other than the Vettes) that still has the roots of the earlier cars. Look at the Mustang II's that came out. Ouch, Ford really lost their way on those I think. The "F" Bodies were the exceptions.

The old Nova's, Monte Carlo's, Chevelle's, Torinos, Grand Prix's, Comet's, Falcon's, Sebring's etc. etc. (The list is very long) were just absent other than some emasculated shells with just the name left on them. I had a 1979 T/A, and my Dad drove a 78 T/A, and yes those were and still are cars with visual and litteral PT/Hotrod/Kick Ass roots.

I just chose 1976 because at least GM went through a profound change in their styling and performance of 95% of there offerings. Even the Vettes of the mid 70's I think were lost and still are. Look at the price for the 74-79 vettes. They are still not thought much of.

My overly broad statement did not include the exceptions to the rule. that was a mistake on my part, no offense intended.

Ty