Road Race Camaro.. TT Block Choice?

[gearhead1186]

Im building a 69 camaro with a max-g chassis frame. Its going to be a road course/street car. My goals is ~1000fwhp using and ls platform and twin turbos backed by a paddle shifted 4l80e.

Here is the pickle Im in. At that power level I have 3 choices of blocks..

1) GMPP Iron LSX --$2g ---- about 215lbs after machining
2) ERL prepped LS2 http://www.erlperformance.com/ -- $5200g ready for crank ----about 115 lbs after machining
3) LQ9/LQ4 6.0 liter truck block -- about $600 --- about 175lbs after machining

I would love to have an aluminum block since the tt setup will add even more weight but the price is a little extreme. Figuring a machined lsx block will be around 2600, the ERL prepped block is twice as much, another 2600.

Afer maching the LQ9/LQ4 will be about 1g and the ERL prepped block will cost me 4200 more.

Whats your opinion? I dont need to break any records, but I would like to be competitive in the road course. Iron or aluminum over the nose of the car?

[The WidowMaker]

having aluminum is HUGE, but so is 2600 in my pocket. if you have the money go for it. if not, try to move the engine as far back as possible and call it good.

its really hard to justify weight, but think about all the extra weight youre adding with the turbos and plumbing. whats another 100 lbs........

[gearhead1186]

considering that the 6.0 iron block can hold 1000hp the lsx isnt exactly needed and adds more weight..

so its more like a 4g price difference between the lq9/lq4 and the erl prepped ls2.

Ive read that lingenfelter has gotten 1000hp out of stock ls7's.. only other cheap aluminum alternative

[gearhead1186]

thats actually the ERL prepped block with new liners, 2 more bolt holes and a thicker deck.

If only it wasnt so expensive I would jump on it.

The lsx block being $2600 and able to hold 2000hp is awful tempting even though its about 80lbs heavier than the ERL ls2.

The iron 6.0 seems like a bargain at 700 for a new block but you are pretty much limited to 1000, 1100 hp.

[camcojb]

I don't think you need an aftermarket block at 1000 hp, Kurt (W2W) had no problem with my stock LS2 block at that level. Still doesn't as he's spec'd another for Troy at 800 rwhp with the stock LS2 block, no ERL prep, nada.

My two cents................. :yes:

Jody

[deuce_454]

im having several thoughts on this... the first is that if 2600 is a huge deal... twin turbos propably isnt the right choice.... which leads me to the second argument, that twin turbos, while trick and cool, propably isnt the right choice anyway, if you want to go track, you need to be concerned about weight... very concerned, and adding pounds is like subtracting horsepower, not to mention tirewear and poor handling.....

my bet is that if you built a light weight camaro, aluminum/CF front end, power nothing!!! manual tranny (possibly a sequential race unit) lightweight driveline and a race spec LS7 (which will be closer to 750-850 FWHP depending on how much "race" you want...) you will be able to do faster laps than with a 1000 FWHP 4l80e monster... (a 4l80e weighs 254 lbs wet!!!) a TT setup propably adds well over 100 lbs...

and a kinsler IR setup on a built LS7 in an engine compartment that screams race is just as impressive! even more so IMHO!

anyway... thats just my 2 cents...

[gearhead1186]

I don't think you need an aftermarket block at 1000 hp, Kurt (W2W) had no problem with my stock LS2 block at that level. Still doesn't as he's spec'd another for Troy at 800 rwhp with the stock LS2 block, no ERL prep, nada.

My two cents................. :yes:

Jody

You've had no problems? No head gasket problems, pushing water, or strength of the aluminum at the power level. 1000fwhp seems like a lot for a stock sleeved aluminum block.


im having several thoughts on this... the first is that if 2600 is a huge deal... twin turbos propably isnt the right choice.... which leads me to the second argument, that twin turbos, while trick and cool, propably isnt the right choice anyway, if you want to go track, you need to be concerned about weight... very concerned, and adding pounds is like subtracting horsepower, not to mention tirewear and poor handling.....

my bet is that if you built a light weight camaro, aluminum/CF front end, power nothing!!! manual tranny (possibly a sequential race unit) lightweight driveline and a race spec LS7 (which will be closer to 750-850 FWHP depending on how much "race" you want...) you will be able to do faster laps than with a 1000 FWHP 4l80e monster... (a 4l80e weighs 254 lbs wet!!!) a TT setup propably adds well over 100 lbs...

and a kinsler IR setup on a built LS7 in an engine compartment that screams race is just as impressive! even more so IMHO!

anyway... thats just my 2 cents...

I wouldnt mind paying 2600 more if that is what is required but over at ls1tech, is seems like the erl prepped block is more for 1/4 miles cars running way more than 1000fwhp. It just seems that a stock ls2/ls7 or lq9 would suffice for the power levels I want.

Im not building a dedicated track car as I want to have a/c, decent sound system, power brakes, power steering. I just want to run it around the track and be competitive.

After the feedback I got over here and at ls1tech I have it narrowed it down to...

-->nasty NA ls7 matched with a t56. are you talking about the clutchless jericho and liberty trannys? (how do you figure 850hp NA ls7?) I would be more than happy with that but I havent seen any NA with that kinda power.

-->a turboed ls2 with a 4l80e paddle shifted.
-->a supercharged ls2 with a t56 (little better on weight)

Lets hear opinions between these.

Thanks again for all your feedback. Appreciate it.

[gearhead1186]

Just thinking about a supercharged ls7 as it has dry sump oiling.. would be light, dry sump oiling and since its not turboed I can back it with a lighter t56.

MTI Racing has put an eaton tvs blower on an ls7 and made over 800fwhp.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/corvette-performance/969328-eaton-tvs-supercharged-ls7-mti-racing.html

Katech makes an Air Attack ls7 with a magnuson up top that makes 750hp.. should be too bad to bump it up to 800 and change.

http://blogs.gmhightechperformance.com/6306423/miscellaneous/katech-performance-ls7-supercharged-crate-engine/index.html

Procharger claims 820rwhp with a F1 on a modified ls7

http://www.procharger.com/C6_LS7.shtml

Sorry if it looks like Im going back and forth, I just wanna get every option out there and hear everyone's feedback.

[deuce_454]

for track duty.. the throttle response of a positive displacement blower and a manual tranny will work and feel much better... it will feel less "nice" and more aggressive than a turbo and a paddle shifted auto.. but it depends on what feel you want... magnusson LS7 and t56 is a totally different animal from a twin turbo & auto.....

[gearhead1186]

thanks for the feedback. I think I was trying to do too much with one car... hence the high hp twin turbo and the auto tranny. tryin to make it a good road course car and good 1/4 mile car all at the same time.

ls7 with a blower is a much lighter and easier setup then a twin turbo ls2/lq9.

Not worrying about 1/4 time and consistency, the t56 is an easy choice since its more fun and lighter.

Thanks again guys. Any suggestions on blowers, procharger, kenne bell, eaton?

[gearhead1186]

Since its a road course car, the ls7 appeals to me since it has dry sump oiling but Im kinda scared to put too much boost through it. ls2 has a little more meat on it.

Any opinions? 800rwhp is fine with me.

[Blown353]

I don't think you need an aftermarket block at 1000 hp, Kurt (W2W) had no problem with my stock LS2 block at that level. Still doesn't as he's spec'd another for Troy at 800 rwhp with the stock LS2 block, no ERL prep, nada.

My two cents................. :yes:

Jody

Yep. I told Kurt I wanted about 800rwhp on pump gas for my new turbo LS2 (that's about 950 crank)...

Kurt spec'd me a STOCK block and a STOCK GM crank.

Kurt said both the factory block and crank will be plenty adequate at this power level, he has used the both reliably above this power level and advised me to save my money or spend it elsewhere.

As you approach 1350 hp / 20 psi of boost or so, a stock 4-bolt LS can start pushing coolant out-- that's where the LSx and 6 bolt heads shine.

Kurt is modifying my LS2 block with piston oil squirters though-- I asked if he could modify the block with squirters and he said yes-- so I said go for it. They are a very good idea for any forced induction build-- nearly all factory FI engines have piston squirters. The new NASCAR blocks have 2 squirters per cylinder. If you're going to track the thing, you absolutely positively want them! Really helps the pistons out and also keeps detonation away by maintaining piston temps.

With 1000fwhp on a track, I hope you are planning on a very large cooling system. Cooling 1000hp in a prolonged sustained use environment is NOT going to be an easy task...

[BBC69Camaro]

With 1000fwhp on a track, I hope you are planning on a very large cooling system. Cooling 1000hp in a prolonged sustained use environment is NOT going to be an easy task...

I have always wondered what those guys do for prolonged cooling, especially in a hot climate.

[Blown353]

I have always wondered what those guys do for prolonged cooling, especially in a hot climate.

...and especially forced induction. Keeping forced-induction anything on a road course happy is a challenge. Once heat soak starts setting in you start hurting things, typically from detonation.

A large radiator with ample airflow, large intercooler with ample airflow, large oil cooler with ample airflow, power steering cooler, and a way to exchange enough underhood air to avoid creating a "superheated" underhood enviornment but in such a way to avoid creating too much front end lift are all important. Not to mention shielding all the radiant heat sources in a turbo car so they don't bake all the more fragile bits under the hood when they are glowing orange for an entire track session.

Keeping a naturally aspirated car happy on a roadcourse isn't too bad usually; size the radiator right, size the oil cooler right, put on a good water pump and shield the plug wires and anything else that might melt from the radiated heat from the headers that will be scorching hot for 20-30 minutes straight and go try it. Add boost and you just upped the heat load on the engine & oil cooling system, so you might have to grow those components. You also just increased the amount of radiant heat under the hood, especially if using turbos. And now you have to fit an intercooler in that's large enough such that the intake temps don't heatsoak from prolonged boost-making engine load conditions, and chances are that intercooler is mounted up front and is now raising the temp of the air that flows through the radiator & oil coolers, reducing their efficiency, so you might need to move the intercooler or make the radiator & oil cooler bigger still... it's really fun shaking down a forced induction car for roadcourse duty.

I think we went through 3 radiator / oil cooler / intercooler variations on a friend's Procharged 5.0 track-day beater until it finally made it through a 30 minute track session without overheating something.

[gearhead1186]

thanks. great info. just thinking more and more about the car, what Ill use it for, making sure not to get carried away... 700-800 rwhp is more then enough with me.

Im sure an ls7 can be built to that power level breathing on its own. Heck, just for arguments sake, it can always be sprayed a bit for a nice dyno print out.

Heck, worst case scenario, it doesnt take much boost to get an ls7 to 700-800 rwhp. Im sure that wont be AS BAD as some twin turbo car running around the track with glowing headers.

Thanks again.

[camcojb]

700-800 rwhp is more then enough with me.

Im sure an ls7 can be built to that power level breathing on its own.

I'm gonna say you'll have a tough time getting a naturally aspirated LS7 to 700-800 rwhp. With some nitrous, yeah. If you prefer track duty over street duty drop the 700-800 rwhp goal and build a solid 500-550 rwhp LS7 combo with the proper coolers for oil, ps, etc. and go have a blast. It will be a much better car on the track, easier to drive, easier on parts, and likely faster on a road course than an 800 rwhp monster. Work on reducing weight, getting the car balanced, proper suspension, and most importantly the driver factor................ a great driver can kick ass in a rental car...........:lol:

If the track will only be a small portion of what you do with the car and you need that power, then forced induction is the way to go. :morepower



Jody

[gearhead1186]

thanks jody. it wont be a dedicated track car, its just something I would like to do with the car and be somewhat "competitive." Im not gonna cry at night if it has a 51/49 weight distribution, I plan on a/c, a reasonable sound system, etc, etc.

I guess with that in mind, using a procharger or twin screw pushing not more than 10lbs should be more than enough on a forged ls7.

which type of blower would be most suited for track duty?
as I recall, you cant get the eaton 2300 unless you go through australia. so that pretty much just leaves the procharger if im correct?

thanks again for your help.

[tyoneal]

Im building a 69 camaro with a max-g chassis frame. Its going to be a road course/street car. My goals is ~1000fwhp using and ls platform and twin turbos backed by a paddle shifted 4l80e.

Here is the pickle Im in. At that power level I have 3 choices of blocks..

1) GMPP Iron LSX --$2g ---- about 215lbs after machining
2) ERL prepped LS2 http://www.erlperformance.com/ -- $5200g ready for crank ----about 115 lbs after machining
3) LQ9/LQ4 6.0 liter truck block -- about $600 --- about 175lbs after machining

I would love to have an aluminum block since the tt setup will add even more weight but the price is a little extreme. Figuring a machined lsx block will be around 2600, the ERL prepped block is twice as much, another 2600.

Afer maching the LQ9/LQ4 will be about 1g and the ERL prepped block will cost me 4200 more.

Whats your opinion? I dont need to break any records, but I would like to be competitive in the road course. Iron or aluminum over the nose of the car?
====================================
The TT's are going to cost some bucks. Look at the engines Schwartz manufacturing makes. They are biult right, but your also looking at $22K worth of greenbacks. They have the power and are priced fairly.

1) The money that it will take to build the beast you want right, I think might be considerably higher than what your budgeting. (This does not include the Magicians who can build these on their own, and make them work right.)

2) If you really want a good road racing car, spend 80% of your money on the suspension and 20% on the engine. Recently I have found that a well sorted out car with 250 hp to the ground, can play hell with someone with 500 hp to the ground, and that doesn't even come near the 1000hp you are speaking of. With that hp, Drag Racing or Bonneville would be the right place for those types of engines.

What do the rest think, does this sound correct?

Ty


I think you might have one other issue to deal with.

[gearhead1186]

yes, thanks. If you read the above posts, I have since adjusted my goals and plans for the car.

I am leaning towards a n/a ls7 with 600rwhp with some juice for the heck of it.

or

a supercharged ls7 pushing no more than 10lbs of boost.

dont need more than 700rwhp.

what my question is now... being that the eaton 2300 isnt available to the public, im assuming the procharger is my only option. just want to make sure it will be reliable enough if i go the f/i route.

[gearhead1186]

Yes, thank you. I remember reading that. I stand corrected.

Now that we have that out of the way, which blower is better suited for road racing.. the harrop 2300 or say a d1 or f1 procharger?

In regards to the ls7/ls3.. the wet sump on the ls3 can be converted to the ls7's dry sump correct? All thats needed is a longer crank, ls7 pump, timing cover etc? If thats the case I would gladly trade a couple cubes for a block with more meat.

Thanks again.

[gearhead1186]

are you sure it eliminates a/c? everybody that has em on f-bodies or vettes are running a/c.

also procharger includes brackets with their ls kits.

unless im missing something???

[gearhead1186]

Hmm, maybe Im missing something, but the fbody and vette location is on the top right of the motor, above the a/c compressor. I would think that it would kill sales if a procharger install would require owners to yank their a/c.

Maybe you could clarify but I dont see why fbody/vette brackets wouldnt work on a 69 with a max g chassis. I mean the procharger is mounted up on top. I could see if it was mounted down low that it might interfere with a chassis crossmember or rack n pinion or something... Seems a top mount would work. Please correct me if im wrong.

The reason Im sorta fighting for the procharger is because I dont want the unbearable power down low that a roots style blower will give me. Id rather have it up top when I already have traction.

Thanks again.

[Pantera EFI]

When we "dyno" tested Ro's (Chev-High) Twin-Turbo LS-1,
we had no problems.

The block did have "steel" main caps, as does the LS-7.

The torque was 1080@22 lbs, HP was 1050@18 lbs.
(4.1 stroke, LS-1 bore)

Remember a quality EMS is also important to keep the engine safe.
A quality EMS can decode the 58x(60-2) target WITHOUT a cam sensor.
Those systems that require a CAS to operate could FORGET to look at ALL the teeth AND tooth acceleration.

This is what creates "Timing-Lag", a major cause of exploded engines.

Lance

[gearhead1186]

A quality EMS can decode the 58x(60-2) target WITHOUT a cam sensor.
Those systems that require a CAS to operate could FORGET to look at ALL the teeth AND tooth acceleration.


Can you go a little further into this. Thanks

[Blown353]

Hey Lance, how do you deal with signal discrimination/saturation at high RPM with the 58X wheel?

Several guys with lots of experience in both the LS1 and EFI industry have suggested I use a 24X wheel on my new twin turbo LS2 build. Their reasoning being as RPMs increase it gets more difficult to discern the individual tooth signals of the 58X wheel and you run the chance of misinterpreting the signal, leading to false injection/false timing events.

I believe the number I was told was things start to get "fuzzy" with the 58X wheel around 7200rpm, where the 24X wheel starts to get "fuzzy" around 9100-9200 rpm, the disadvantage here obviously being the lower tooth count of the 24X wheel limits the resolution of the system.

Both of the guys I talked to suggested I use the 24X wheel because of greater tooth "individuality" & a clearer signal at higher RPM where the engine is making the most HP, whereas the 58X wheel is giving lots more pulses at high RPM with a larger chance of the individual tooth pulses "running together" and false-triggering.

I'm normally not a name dropper, but one of the sources for this recommendation was John Meaney (Big Stuff 3)...

Waiting to hear your feedback. I haven't purchased a new ECU yet for my LS2 and am still researching the options. The BS3 and your Pantera system are still in the mix...

[Pantera EFI]

First, the person(s) who have stated this to you are
LIARS, maybe just STUPID.

I will state the a "VR" sensor could have a problem over 14,000 RPM due to sensor design.
That requirement would be switched to the 36-x target.
The LS-7 (GRAY) hall sensor (60-2 target) has been tested to over 12,000 RPM with no problems.

Those EMS that can not do the decode are just plain JUNK.

ASK yourself why GM uses the 60-2 (58x) are they dumb ?
NO they are VERY sharp, they look at the tooth acceleration.

Now, I like John M., though to do the decode correctly
the processor needs speed in the decode area.
Most (OEM's) state a 100mhz frequency is required is the decode area, ours is 160 mhz.

With that my EMS can easily run over 25,000 RPM.

When the 60-2 is decoded CORRECTLY we see the tooth acceleration that is present durning
combustion/engine RPM increase/decrease.
That information is used to "predict" the spark instant.
That information is used to "inspect" combustion quality.

Remember, I was part of the team who worked with Alex Long, the INVENTOR of DIS with
"missing tooth decode" using the 60-2, 36-1 targets.

Lance NIST

[andrewmp6]

I have no clue on the engine set up bet let me know how you like the max g set up been thinking about there kit for my mustang.