A1000, stock fuel tank w/ baffling okay?

[Flash68]

Hey guys,

I used the search function and many are running the fuel pump inside the tank, but wanted to see if this set up is okay to run.

Motor is a Procharged 406 small block with Holley Stealth Ram, FAST EFI, 75 lb injectors, and about 750hp.

A1000 fuel pump mounted externally
new stock fuel tank with baffling installed and a return line


I think this is going to work, although not as awesome as Rick's Stainless or a Rock Valley tank, but it should be fine right?

thanks in advance

[camcojb]

yes, the baffling will determine how well it will work. If it's real good there will be no issues, but if not you'll likely have to keep the tank pretty full to avoid uncovering the fuel pump pickup.

We ran a stock un-baffled tank with your motor initially until Don could afford a Rock Valley tank; just kept the tank full.

Jody

[Flash68]

yes, the baffling will determine how well it will work. If it's real good there will be no issues, but if not you'll likely have to keep the tank pretty full to avoid uncovering the fuel pump pickup.

We ran a stock un-baffled tank with your motor initially until Don could afford a Rock Valley tank; just kept the tank full.

Jody

Thanks Jody. Again. :D

Were you and Don also running an external A1000 then? It seems there are a lot of negative reviews about this pump out there....

[Vegas69]

Do it once and the right way:_paranoid

[Flash68]

Do it once and the right way:_paranoid

What exactly is this "right way"? Seems there are many ways.....

[Vegas69]

I am doing my fuel system for the second time. Definitely more than one way to skin a cat. Fuel system is a very vital part of the build and has to be reliable. It was really a poke at myself.

[Flash68]

I am doing my fuel system for the second time. Definitely more than one way to skin a cat. Fuel system is a very vital part of the build and has to be reliable. It was really a poke at myself.

I'm sure I read it before as I follow your thread, but what was your original fuel system and what did u change it to?

thx

[Vegas69]

Really just some bad luck with a couple Holley pumps deadheaded. Will have updated soon on my thread.

[rich-allen]

I believe the typical 1000 fuel pump is the internal one used in the Ricks tank.

You should be fine.

[Flash68]

Cool. Thanks Vegas and Rich!

[Blown353]

FYI, I can get my pump to suck air at WOT and also during sustained turns when the fuel level gets down to just over 1/4 of a tank in my Rock Valley. Once I get down to about 3/8 of a tank I make it a point not to beat on the car because I know it'll suck air and starve the engine. It'll also start to suck air after a prolonged hard turn once it gets down around the 3/8 tank level. Mind you this is on street tires and public roads... on a "closed course" and on sticky tires where I could push it harder the starvation issue would be worse.

I'm kind of disappointed honestly with my Rock Valley EFI tank given the price (and as much as they praised it on the phone)-- it looks good and is well built but I expected better fuel control.

Baffles are really only part of the solution. Baffles only slow and delay the inevitable sloshing of fuel away from the pickup-- to really keep the pump happy requires a sump built into the tank or a surge tank to maintain fuel at the suction side of the pump regardless of what g-forces are doing.

For a car that sees a lot of track time on sticky tires I would build a system that either has an integral drop sump/sump "box" or a system that utilizes a separate surge tank and feeder pump (or a venturi pump to feed the surge tank).

I haven't tried a Rick's tank, but I would like to see inside pics to see how they handled their baffles/sump scheme for the in-tank A1000 models.

[Flash68]

FYI, I can get my pump to suck air at WOT and also during sustained turns when the fuel level gets down to just over 1/4 of a tank in my Rock Valley. Once I get down to about 3/8 of a tank I make it a point not to beat on the car because I know it'll suck air and starve the engine. It'll also start to suck air after a prolonged hard turn once it gets down around the 3/8 tank level. Mind you this is on street tires and public roads... on a "closed course" and on sticky tires where I could push it harder the starvation issue would be worse.

I'm kind of disappointed honestly with my Rock Valley EFI tank given the price (and as much as they praised it on the phone)-- it looks good and is well built but I expected better fuel control.

Baffles are really only part of the solution. Baffles only slow and delay the inevitable sloshing of fuel away from the pickup-- to really keep the pump happy requires a sump built into the tank or a surge tank to maintain fuel at the suction side of the pump regardless of what g-forces are doing.

For a car that sees a lot of track time on sticky tires I would build a system that either has an integral drop sump/sump "box" or a system that utilizes a separate surge tank and feeder pump (or a venturi pump to feed the surge tank).

I haven't tried a Rick's tank, but I would like to see inside pics to see how they handled their baffles/sump scheme for the in-tank A1000 models.

Thanks for chiming in. We did decide to add a sump while the baffling is being done so hopefully that should help as you said. I don't mind a noisy fuel pump as this car is not a daily driver and is going to be pretty damn loud anyway. And if the A1000 has issues it can be easily replaced or whatever.

Was debating on a Rock Valley or Rick's but just can't justify that kind of money right now actually.

[AALynch]

Jut as a note - my Rick's tank did not have an A1000 in it. I had to pull the pump, because I wasn't getting proper fuel pressure, and my tank had a Walbro 255lph in it.

-Adam

[JUSTANOVA]

FYI, I can get my pump to suck air at WOT and also during sustained turns when the fuel level gets down to just over 1/4 of a tank in my Rock Valley. Once I get down to about 3/8 of a tank I make it a point not to beat on the car because I know it'll suck air and starve the engine. It'll also start to suck air after a prolonged hard turn once it gets down around the 3/8 tank level. Mind you this is on street tires and public roads... on a "closed course" and on sticky tires where I could push it harder the starvation issue would be worse.

I'm kind of disappointed honestly with my Rock Valley EFI tank given the price (and as much as they praised it on the phone)-- it looks good and is well built but I expected better fuel control.

Baffles are really only part of the solution. Baffles only slow and delay the inevitable sloshing of fuel away from the pickup-- to really keep the pump happy requires a sump built into the tank or a surge tank to maintain fuel at the suction side of the pump regardless of what g-forces are doing.

For a car that sees a lot of track time on sticky tires I would build a system that either has an integral drop sump/sump "box" or a system that utilizes a separate surge tank and feeder pump (or a venturi pump to feed the surge tank).

I haven't tried a Rick's tank, but I would like to see inside pics to see how they handled their baffles/sump scheme for the in-tank A1000 models.


just curious would putting some foam in the tank help this issue? I have been around some dirttrack cars that used it to control fuel slosh.

[Flash68]

just curious would putting some foam in the tank help this issue? I have been around some dirttrack cars that used it to control fuel slosh.

Good question... the fuel cell in my Nova way back when came with foam padding inside it already.

Hey, awesome sounding Nova project in your sig by the way!

[Patrick]

I have a Rick's SS tank and at anything below 1/2 tank it starves for fuel under NORMAL driving conditions.

[camcojb]

since this low fuel level starvation seems to be such an issue with stock and aftermarket tanks and efi, I figured I'd mention the solution (other than keeping your tank full). Run a separate surge tank, 1 to 1.5 gallons would be fine. You could mount it in the trunk or under the car if you had room. Run a simple Holley red, Mallory, Walbro, etc. pump from the main tank to this tank. Feed your main fuel pump (A1000 or whatever) off of the surge tank, bypassing to the surge tank. Then there is a separate overflow/bypass line from the surge tank back to the main fuel tank so when it's full the gas has somewhere to go.

This way, even if the main tank gets a "hiccup" at the pickup you still have the surge tank full to cover it up. These work fantastic in road race cars. This would benefit carb'd cars also, but because of the fuel bowls they don't have the immediate stutter of an efi car if the pickup sucks air.

We should have Ricks or someone similar build a couple universal surge tanks with a simple universal mount on them. Wouldn't require anything special, no baffling needed really, just and inlet and outlet bung, plus two additional bungs (one for return line out to main tank, and the second for return line off the main pump).

Jody

[XcYZ]

Excellent idea, Jody.

[camcojb]

something simple like this:

[Patrick]

But I run an in-tank fuel pump. Wouldn't a surge tank require an external pump?

I thought for the money I spent on the Rick's tank it would be baffled and sumped internally. Right now I am not sure what to do....I am running a supercharger and I cannot afford to lean out. Plus it's down right scary to lose fuel pressure in a fast corner.

Patrick

[camcojb]

But I run an in-tank fuel pump. Wouldn't a surge tank require an external pump?

I thought for the money I spent on the Rick's tank it would be baffled and sumped internally. Right now I am not sure what to do....I am running a supercharger and I cannot afford to lean out. Plus it's down right scary to lose fuel pressure in a fast corner.

Patrick

well, you could use your existing pump to feed the surge tank, but then you'd need a separate pump either in the surge tank or outside to feed the engine.

I'm wondering if the surge tank couldn't be incorporated into the main gas tank itself; wall off a 1-2 gallon area that's completely sealed separately other than a cutout at the very top for fuel to go back into the rest of the tank once full. Use an in-tank small pump to feed this area, then another in-tank or external pump to feed the engine as normal. The engine pump would feed from and bypass to the sealed off internal surge tank.

The simplest solution in your case that wouldn't cost any money is to simply keep the tank full. Once it gets down approaching half a tank or so, just fill up. The added benefit is that the total at the pump would be lower..................... :yes:

Jody

[bigtyme1]

Just a Question, Why would we be having problems with the EFI and Starving for fuel if the factor LS1 in a camaro or trans am or corvette never had this problem?

[Patrick]

Just a Question, Why would we be having problems with the EFI and Starving for fuel if the factor LS1 in a camaro or trans am or corvette never had this problem?


Because their engineers designed the tanks properly.

Which brings up another question....why wouldn't the aftermarket tank manufacturers just dissect a factory tank and copy the layout?

[camcojb]

most of the late model stuff uses a pump housed in a bucket, with a venturi setup for return and pump feed; they can go very low without any issues. You can upgrade to the larger 255 lph Walbro and similar pump, and should be able to get one in an aftermarket tank.

Won't help the big power guys who need much larger or twin pumps; in their case a simple surge tank is the easiest way out.

Jody

[Flash68]

most of the late model stuff uses a pump housed in a bucket, with a venturi setup for return and pump feed; they can go very low without any issues. You can upgrade to the larger 255 lph Walbro and similar pump, and should be able to get one in an aftermarket tank.

Won't help the big power guys who need much larger or twin pumps; in their case a simple surge tank is the easiest way out.

Jody

Good stuff, Jody.

This looks like a great cost effective way to alleviate this issue should I have them when I am done.

Thanks for chiming in.

[JUSTANOVA]

Good question... the fuel cell in my Nova way back when came with foam padding inside it already.

Hey, awesome sounding Nova project in your sig by the way!

thanks, too bad it has been a stalled project for way too long, I quess I shouldn't have gotten sidetracked on too many other things. eh...oh well.

[JUSTANOVA]

well, you could use your existing pump to feed the surge tank, but then you'd need a separate pump either in the surge tank or outside to feed the engine.

I'm wondering if the surge tank couldn't be incorporated into the main gas tank itself; wall off a 1-2 gallon area that's completely sealed separately other than a cutout at the very top for fuel to go back into the rest of the tank once full. Use an in-tank small pump to feed this area, then another in-tank or external pump to feed the engine as normal. The engine pump would feed from and bypass to the sealed off internal surge tank.

The simplest solution in your case that wouldn't cost any money is to simply keep the tank full. Once it gets down approaching half a tank or so, just fill up. The added benefit is that the total at the pump would be lower..................... :yes:

Jody


wonder if someone could come up with a deal like bmw uses in its factory tanks, with the tanks mounted under the back seat it is a "saddle bag" style with a hump in the middle for the driveshaft. the only pump in the tank is in the rh saddle and they use what they call a "siphon jet" pump that siphons fuel from the lh side of the tank when the fuel is returned by the return fuel system it will suck the lh saddle pretty much dry. I wonder if a similar setup could be used to feed the "surge" tank inside the main fuel tank as jody describes.

[syborg tt]

wonder if someone could come up with a deal like bmw uses in its factory tanks, with the tanks mounted under the back seat it is a "saddle bag" style with a hump in the middle for the driveshaft. the only pump in the tank is in the rh saddle and they use what they call a "siphon jet" pump that siphons fuel from the lh side of the tank when the fuel is returned by the return fuel system it will suck the lh saddle pretty much dry. I wonder if a similar setup could be used to feed the "surge" tank inside the main fuel tank as jody describes.

okay, you've peeked my interest.

So i searched the net and couldn't find anything on the BMW tank. Any chance you have a link or pictures.

[JUSTANOVA]

okay, you've peeked my interest.

So i searched the net and couldn't find anything on the BMW tank. Any chance you have a link or pictures.

I don't have a pic of an actual siphon jet pump out of a tank, I'm not sure if i can get one until a fuel tank has to be replaced at work then I might be able to get the line out of the tank with the siphon jet pump out of it.

I only have a training manual with a drawing of the siphon jet pump itself that I can take a pic of or something. not sure if it will be of any use, I will try to find an online drawing in the next few days.

i did a search for "siphon jet pump" on google and came up with this link apparently gm has been using similar stuff for a while now too. this link kinda shows where it is in the tank and you can get an idea how it works, now getting ahold of one will be the trick.

I did a search on google hoping to find a siphon jet pump of some sort that could be easily used on somthing like this but i got tired of looking at web pages.

hope this helps.

http://www.hessh.de/Corvette/FuelTankSystem.pdf

[JUSTANOVA]

okay, you've peeked my interest.

So i searched the net and couldn't find anything on the BMW tank. Any chance you have a link or pictures.


i talked the the parts guys today and they have a tank that was replaced and bmw doesn't want it back so it is going in the trash, I will be getting it tomorrow to get the siphon jet pump out of it, so syborg tt if you want it to experiment with I will mail it to you. just let me know address etc....

[ss dave]

I couldn't help but add my experience. I have had two Ricks tanks in the same vehicle. 69 Camaro with LS7, 44# injectors at 58 psi., both tanks with the A1000 and a parallel fuel system.
Had issues with the stock Ricks tank, at low levels the pressure would drop, also around a right turn at 30 mph the engine died. Talked with a Boeing jet fuel tank designer and he suggested to put flap baffle doors in the tank around the pickup.
Hector at Ricks was great and did that along with a narrowed tank AT NO EXTRA COST-FREE! kud dos to Hector. Unfortunately, same problem. At low levels the pick up will starve.
I am going to ask Hector to build a tank with a sump and place the pickup in the sump. This is how the Factories do it and it would not require any extra tanks.
I have talked with Tyler at ATS and he stated they did not have any problems with their Ricks tanks and Bosch pumps. They run a dead head system like in Bad Penny. Wonder if Steve has any issues?

[Flash68]

I couldn't help but add my experience. I have had two Ricks tanks in the same vehicle. 69 Camaro with LS7, 44# injectors at 58 psi., both tanks with the A1000 and a parallel fuel system.
Had issues with the stock Ricks tank, at low levels the pressure would drop, also around a right turn at 30 mph the engine died. Talked with a Boeing jet fuel tank designer and he suggested to put flap baffle doors in the tank around the pickup.
Hector at Ricks was great and did that along with a narrowed tank AT NO EXTRA COST-FREE! kud dos to Hector. Unfortunately, same problem. At low levels the pick up will starve.
I am going to ask Hector to build a tank with a sump and place the pickup in the sump. This is how the Factories do it and it would not require any extra tanks.
I have talked with Tyler at ATS and he stated they did not have any problems with their Ricks tanks and Bosch pumps. They run a dead head system like in Bad Penny. Wonder if Steve has any issues?

I would have think it would have been documented here by Steve if he had fuel tank issues, but then again maybe not....

Yeah I have spoken to Tyler about the same thing. Have not heard of many having the issues you are speaking of with these aftermarket tanks. Only with stock tanks.

Please keep us posted with what you decide to do and how it works out.

thanks

[ss dave]

Most others with a similar powerplant/ fuel tank setup run a dead head type of delivery, ie. Bad Penny. Maybe that system keeps fuel pressure more constant than a parallel system, despite occassional starvation at the pickup, I don't know. I know that the return is less in length therefore volume, and the return would be quicker to the pickup. I need more info/ advice, any comments are appreciated.

[parsonsj]

Deadhead vs paralllel really has nothing to do with the pickup setup. Fuel starvation around corners is about control of fuel movement.

Jody's surge tank is the best possible solution. Proper baffling in the tank is the next best solution, and the OEM "pump in a bucket" approach seems like it would work well, but we haven't heard from late model OEM guys about their autoX or road course experiences.

jp

[ss dave]

Hello again, I was just thinking that after reading alot of discussion on the subject that "maybe" my fuel was being returned hot to the pump and causing vaporization which could contribute to starvation. I am trying to do anything and everything to optimize my system since this is a driver.

[Flash68]

Deadhead vs paralllel really has nothing to do with the pickup setup. Fuel starvation around corners is about control of fuel movement.

Jody's surge tank is the best possible solution. Proper baffling in the tank is the next best solution, and the OEM "pump in a bucket" approach seems like it would work well, but we haven't heard from late model OEM guys about their autoX or road course experiences.

jp

Jody's surge tank? Is this on his Chevelle?

[camcojb]

Jody's surge tank? Is this on his Chevelle?


No, I haven't put one on the Chevelle yet as I haven't experienced any issues. Then again, I fill the tank when it gets down to 1/2 tank or so. I did not invent the idea, just brought it up in some threads a while back as a solution that really works for fuel starvation/sloshing issues with efi.

Think of a surge tank as a really large fuel bowl on a carb............. :yes: if the pickup becomes uncovered in a hard corner for instance you do not get the immediate dying/fuel pressure drop with efi that you normally would, because the surge tank is still full. Now if you run out of gas in the main tank, then yes, the surge will fail also........... :P


Jody

[Flash68]

No, I haven't put one on the Chevelle yet as I haven't experienced any issues. Then again, I fill the tank when it gets down to 1/2 tank or so. I did not invent the idea, just brought it up in some threads a while back as a solution that really works for fuel starvation/sloshing issues with efi.

Think of a surge tank as a really large fuel bowl on a carb............. :yes: if the pickup becomes uncovered in a hard corner for instance you do not get the immediate dying/fuel pressure drop with efi that you normally would, because the surge tank is still full. Now if you run out of gas in the main tank, then yes, the surge will fail also........... :P


Jody

Hmm. Interesting. I saw in the other fuel system thread you are planning to ask Hector @ Rick's about building this possibly... I am very interested in knowing if he will and at what added cost. Might cover all possible issues that could arise if that was done eh?

thanks

[Pantera EFI]

The Marine, Off-Road, CORR , Air Boat users require a "make-up" tank as a part of MY EFI system.

The tank is simple, a tube about 18-24 long and 3"-5" in diameter, vertically mounted.

One or two "lift" pumps (low pressure) remove fuel from the main tank corners, then into the Make-Up tank.

Fuel overflow is returned into the main tank as is the EFI system return.

The "high" pressure pump is fed close to the bottom of the Make-Up tank that includes a bottom drain for water dirt inspection.

When you feed your engine with a qualty stable fuel mass, it will treat you to a win.

Lance