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View Full Version : Newbie to FI - FAST or Something Else???


The WidowMaker
04-10-2008, 10:04 PM
well ive done some searching, and ive developed a few questions that i cant find answers for.

first, the plan is to run an lsx block, l92 or ls7 heads and shoot for 454ci and 600hp+ with a decent size cam. thats about as far as i have gotten. nothing has been purchased, so im looking for a complete system (coils, rails, ecu, etc...). like i said i need everything.

before today, i didnt know anything about efi setups. everything ive run in the past has had a carb. so heres what i think i know.

the efi systems use an ecu to "pick" the correct duty cycle for the injectors along with the correct timing for the dis and coils. this is done by receiving info from the many sensors and inputing them into a table. the value that falls within the box that correlates to the sensors inputs is then transmitted to the ignition and injectors.

the aftermarket systems mostly use a closed loop system that employs an o2 sensor to make sure its doing its job correctly (does an open loop have an o2 sensor?). there are also two different types of o2 sensors; the narrow band and the wide band. the narrow tells you if your rich or lean, but it doesnt know by how much. a wide band lets you know the a/f/r, so you can tune it.

there are also two different methods to calculating the air input. the first is the maf, but this isnt used in the aftermarket. the second is the map which uses the speed density method. this is the preferred method in the aftermarket.

now for some questions. ive been looking at the fast system. from what i gather, i need their total install kit which includes the ecu, the xim, the harnesses and the sensors. but, since im starting from scratch, what is the difference btwn the ls1 and ls2 stuff? ive found about a $700 difference btwn the two. what makes the ls2 different, besides the 58x? is there something included in one that is not in the other? cant i just use the 24x crank and the ls1 coils and call it good?

besides the stuff listed above, plus the coils, fuel sys, fuel rails and injectors, what else is needed to make the swap and get it running?

also, with a sophisticated computer, why cant this thing tune itself? also, what makes one motor need a different a/f/r curve than another? now i know one engine may need more fuel, but that shouldnt change its needed a/f/r. i guess i just cant understand how if my motor was as efficent as say an ls7, both were at the same fluid temp, with the same heads, at the same rpm, at the same altitude, with the same ambient air temp, with the same humidity etc........ that they wouldnt be reeeeeeeaaaaaaaly close to needing the same afr.

one more thing, how does the tuning work? i know guys drive them with a labtop in the passenger seat, but what are you inputing? if you do a wot run and it tells you that at 6100 rpm you were at 13.2:1, do you then just change that figure to where you want it? does that value now just fulfill one category out of a possible million (meaning do you have to do the same thing at 6200rpm or even do it again at 6100 rpm when the air temp is a little cooler)?

way too many questions, but i appreciate the help.....

thanks in advance,
Tim

Pantera EFI
04-11-2008, 07:45 AM
When GM wanted DIS, they came to US. Alex Long invented the 58x, DIS, I worked with him.(he has passed)
My method is to provide a powerful DSP engine inside the "black box" with the most easy to understand software. This software "GUI" is a model of the "carb" and "distributor" items that you have used in the past.
Do you ever "get lost" ? So does an EMS system, this is why they need a "base" calibration, the road map.

Lance, Pantera EFI

psybock
07-31-2008, 11:10 AM
I don't know if this will help you, but if you go to www.mass-floefi.com they have a EFI setup that uses an OEM mass air sensor. I haven't heard anything bad about this setup, but by no means should you consider me an expert! This is the system I'm planning on putting on my car when it gets back from the shop. One of the things that I like about this system is that I don't need to carry a laptop around with me if I encounter big elevation changes on long road trips.

Blown353
07-31-2008, 12:07 PM
I don't know if this will help you, but if you go to www.mass-floefi.com they have a EFI setup that uses an OEM mass air sensor. I haven't heard anything bad about this setup, but by no means should you consider me an expert! This is the system I'm planning on putting on my car when it gets back from the shop. One of the things that I like about this system is that I don't need to carry a laptop around with me if I encounter big elevation changes on long road trips.

Here we go again... why is it that when people ask a basic "which EFI?" question on a forum a first-time poster appears and offers up the Massflo system even though they haven't yet used it but claims they will be buying it soon? This exact scenario has happened numerous times on several message boards. If you are a legitimate consumer fine, but in all the other cases it turned out to be thinly disguised vendor spam.

Massflo is based around a Ford EEC-IV system combined with a translator box to use a GM MAF sensor. The EEC IV is a good system, and I like the fact they are using a lot of easy to get OEM parts... but some of Massflo's marketing & system info is way overrated and their customer service has been combative when pressed with "real" questions about the "no tuning required" marketing plan. Yes, out of the box it will run on their provided canned tune and the O2 sensor will tweak the closed loop long term trims for cruise & light load, but to get maximum performance out of your particular engine it must be tuned to your particular engine-- which will require buying TwEECer or a similar software package that allows reflashing of the ECU.

Anyways, moving on.

Why not use the factory LS ECU? GM did a great job with it, and it offers lots of tuning options & resolution that is well beyond the range of probably 95% of the aftermarket ECUs out there. Granted it doesn't offer some of the aux output controls the aftermarket boxes have (such as boost solenoid control, progressive nitrous control, transbrake control, on-ECU wideband O2 closed loop support, etc) but when it comes to actual driveability & tuneability options the factory ECU is ahead of the aftermarket options. Just buy a seat of EFILive and you're good to go.

I will admit that there are a lot more "pitfalls" and additional layers of complexity to the factory LS ECU compared to say a FAST, Gen VII, or most of the other aftermarket ECUs which are much more simplified and user friendly when it comes to tuning options/tables in the software.

All that being said, for your application not being forced induction (which stands the most to benefit from a wideband capable ECU) and already based on the GM LSX system... if it were me I would put a factory LS ECU on it and use EFILive. I'm fairly certain a factory MAF will max out in front of a 454 cube engine, but you can run the LS ECU speed density to get around the MAF sensor flow limitations.

I would compare the costs of a factory ECU setup + an EFILive setup to say a FAST XFI and see where you stand. Either will do the job just fine.

psybock
07-31-2008, 01:14 PM
I really don't appreciate the tone of your post Blown 353. No, I am not in any way connected to that company. I have been a pro-touring.com member for a few years, and I'm on NastyZ28 as well... I've never posted on this site before because I was waiting untill my car got back from my builder to post pics. You'll notice I've been a member here for over a year... so why would I wait so long to post if I was just trying to plug some product.

That's why I clearly stated that "i am not an expert" regarding EFI

Sorry somebody peed in your conrflakes this morning.:mad:

Blown353
07-31-2008, 01:58 PM
I really don't appreciate the tone of your post Blown 353. No, I am not in any way connected to that company. I have been a pro-touring.com member for a few years, and I'm on NastyZ28 as well... I've never posted on this site before because I was waiting untill my car got back from my builder to post pics. You'll notice I've been a member here for over a year... so why would I wait so long to post if I was just trying to plug some product.

That's why I clearly stated that "i am not an expert" regarding EFI

Sorry somebody peed in your conrflakes this morning.:mad:

Sorry if I came off like that; if you go back and read my very first paragraph I stated that if you are a legitimate user I have no beef with you-- and I don't. It's just there has been several instances on several other boards I am on where a first time poster comes in plugging Massflo and they are soon found out to be an "undercover" representative of the company posing as a normal forum member.

Again, I tried to make the motive and justification for my first post clear in my very first paragraph; I didn't mean to come down on you if you were and are in fact a "normal" user of this board; it's just that the tone and content of your post very closely matches the prior behavior of some of Massflo's "sneaky" forum participation.

I'm going to drop this matter now-- hope I didn't offend you. I'm all for in depth discussion of the actual product and experience with it. I just don't appreciate the company's track record of semi-subversive marketing on other forums and based on your post content and post count you were a near perfect match for their previous shenanigans.