protouring mopar options? lets talk

[Majik16106]

ok, I'm posting this in hopes it becomes an on going discussion thread, hopefully spawning ford/gm counterparts, but my interest is in mopar, thus this should be the first, also, since it is the first, ill go ahead and start talking to people get the idea. Basically just some info on common motors, pro's and con's in pro touring cars versus just drag racing cars. So here is what I gather on mopars given the following.

Pro touring cars going to be street driven, need an overdrive for some gas mileage, bigger wheels, cool suspension, not a raced out interior, a/c and p/s. I.e, a decently comfortable street driven insanely fast car.

So on mopars, ill lay out the two motor options as i see it, and then conclude in the bottom, suggestions, criticism, whatever.. im open.

Small- Blocks. I like the non magnum motors, the 340 is pretty nice, the 360 to me is the motor to have. a 408 stroker is plenty capable of being a pump gas naturaly aspirated 500hp motor, albiet with lots of porting. so for this case, lets focus on the 360.

Big blocks- 383 and 400, pretty cool, 440 is easy, and the hemi is pretty badass given your wallet is real deep, and since gigantic cubic inches and mopars short stroke are cheaply used in a 440, we'll go with that,especially since it 1) weighs less than a hemi (protouring plus) and 2) a 496+ ci forged stroker bottom end costs 1300 bucks.

So lets put them in a car, for this example, a 70's ebody, coil over tubular front (plenty of header clearance) lowered on some nice 17's, the keisler tko600 5speed with a .62 overdrive, so given gear, a 6500rpm shift point (easy for both motors) gives you 180ish mph.

The argument- The 360 is lighter, and i guess it would rev easier, steve vukovich is a fan obviously, his isky blown 408ci makes 600+ hp. However,if we are talking about a 40 mph roll on a major freeway, trying to take on a decently powered newer turbo car (supra/300zx) what would we rather have, good mid-top end right? well, all the mopar guys i talk too say they'd rather have the 440, stroked or not. They all say its worth the weight penalty, mopars arent anything without a big block seems to be the attitude. so given that, what about the 440, could go forged .030 over 440 with blower or no? 496 same price, blower or no? stock 360 high comp, blown 360?

Basically, what would you guys use and why? I like the idea of something like a twin turbo 366, but thats just me, what would you do if you had to take that e-body, and out run a modded viper on the interstate to 145mph.. what would you use to bury 100mph as quickly as possible? yet still retain some turning ability, would the big block kill that? just throwing ideas out...

[black2002ls]

i am a turbo fan myself. i would probably go with a TT and fuel injected set up. if done right, you could eliminate turbo lag. its all in the sizing of the housings. of course, since there probably isn't a commercially available TT set up for the old big body mopars and their motors, so you will have to take into consideration all of the fabrication having to take place. you will need the headers, and all of the intake piping. definately not what you would consider a budget project. for a decent set up, with the custom headers and all, if you had to farm out the work, i'd say in the neighborhood of 4 or 5k. but it would definately follow suit with the more modernized aspects of the hobby. as would a centrifical (sp) blower, such as a novi2000. then there is always the bang for the buck aspect of nitrous. The best starting point is a good strong motor. fully built bottom end, to support anything that would be thrown at it. then you would need to consider the flow properties in relation to the induction package, being blown, or nitrous injecter, or simply N/A......these are just some ramblings and thoughts. food for thought.

[Hooligan]

I've got a 69 Roadrunner thats going to get a pro-touring treatment.

Im going to use a 440 based engine because I have it :) and cant afford a hemi :( or to build a viper engine:D . And a super charger as opposed to turbo's, less fabrication.

[Majik16106]

i like the twin set up too, but the more i research and read, the more i like just screwing off the weight penalty and goin big, seems like everyone i talk with says go big, and as for affordable hemi.. have you checked out stage v? definatly an option, i think a lot of pro-touring, even if people dont want to admit it, is look, more modern, more aggressive, and in mopar world.. nothing says " stay away" like HEMI

[70Dustpan]

For a Big Block I would go with a well build 10 to 1 400 B Block with Edelbrock heads and Edelbrock's Pro-Flo EFI system. A big bore short stroke motor and with the right cam 500 HP and 6500 RPM isn't that hard to get. And still very street friendly. With a Keisler 5 spd over-drive, 3.55 gears and 500 HP 150+ MPH in a E Body is doable. A coilover K Frame set-up and a IRS with coilovers out back.
For a small block a 400+ CID R-3 Block with W-9 Heads and a EFI system would be cool. This would take more fab work and more $$$ too.

But for me I would dig the 3800 Lbs E Body and stick it in a 3000 lbs A Body. :thumbsup:

[clill]

i am a turbo fan myself. i would probably go with a TT and fuel injected set up. if done right, you could eliminate turbo lag. its all in the sizing of the housings. of course, since there probably isn't a commercially available TT set up for the old big body mopars and their motors, so you will have to take into consideration all of the fabrication having to take place. you will need the headers, and all of the intake piping. definately not what you would consider a budget project. for a decent set up, with the custom headers and all, if you had to farm out the work, i'd say in the neighborhood of 4 or 5k. but it would definately follow suit with the more modernized aspects of the hobby.
.....I gotta find this guy that can fab me up a fuel injected twin turbo setup for 4-5K...... Kurt, are you reading this ? :D

[camcojb]

.....I gotta find this guy that can fab me up a fuel injected twin turbo setup for 4-5K...... Kurt, are you reading this ? :D


I paid $1800 just for the headers!

Jody

[MrAngry]

I just posted some pics of my 1968 Charger in the new guy/intro. section. Here are my thoughts as my car is set up to be a driver with a pro-touring style - and I drive it a lot. I have a 440, 906 w/heads .030 over w/ 10.1 comp., stainless valves, forged pistons, dual plane intake, Holley 850DP, Crane HI-6 digital ignition system with MOPAR performance distributor, headman headers to a full 3" exhaust and some other nic nacs.

I think that bang for the buck 440 is the way to go. First off, the torque. I put out about 550lb/ft. and I can tell you it is an absolute riot. My tranny is a 727 with a Cheetah SCS turbo action shifter w/ reverse valve body coupled to a Gear Vendors OD unit. I can run at 85mph all day long pushing 3000rpms. By far the best mod. that can be made to a old car. I looked into Kiesler and decided against them due to the customer service horror stories that I'd heard. Without the GV engauged my final drive ratio is 3:55 - with it I drop to a 2:76 - to me, this is the ideal combo for the street.

If you are looking at speeds upwards of 140 I can tell you that will run into a problem - aerodynamics. For example - my Charger has a grill the size of a barn door and the resessed rear window causes a lot of drag. This may limit you somewhat. As for the motor - I have plans of pulling the engine next year to drop my compression so I can a pro-charger supercharger kit. Right now I can pretty much pull with anything from 40mph to 110mph. My goal is to change that to be able to run from 85-140 while make in the neighbood of about 700-750hp.

Also what car do you want to use - if I were making another car to set up for the track I would probably go with a Dart or 1st gen Barracuda - they are smaller and can be made to handle better then the larger B-bodies. Plus they are lighter and may be more receptive a turbo charged small block set-up. In the end it all comes down money. Hopefully by mid-july I will have my BAER Brakes installed as well as my Hotchkis sways bars and tubular upper control arms. If you car is lowered you will most likely need these if you are running torsion bars. Don't know if this helps at all - but I hope so.

Cheers-

[Majik16106]

i only chose the e-body as an example because i felt it was in the middle of the mopar field, not the smaller a body, while not being the bigger charger/ roadrunner. thats all. also, keep in mind, i started this as a general discussion thread, ill start a chevy and ford thread later if this goes well. i appreciate the insight from mr. angry, any real world experience, please share, even if it doesnt seem important, u never know what might spark interest or make a difference to someone reading this thread later. Personal example..

I was planning on using a kiesler 5 speed, then i read one small comment on a forums about awful service, so.. it got my attention, and then i saw more and more, and just today, i had a GREAT conversation with Passon, and its half the price, plus i could spend another g, get the gear vendors, go overdrive, save weight with an all aluminum 4 speed housing, fab up a hyd clutch set up, and still get the o/d. or just use thier o/d 4 speed like they used in the hammer, .73 4th gear. I like forced induction, always have, out of boost your running a very solid low compression motor, using less gas i may add, and for anyone who has stepped into a supercharger pushing over 8psi, or a solid built turbo car, it is truely awesome, plus it helps idle with a big cam, etc etc..

originally i wanted a TT set up, and i still like it, but to be honest, ive been doing a lot of 440 research, full forged stroker bottom end for 1300? the guy at 440source say they run em to 8k in drag racing, 496ci that can do 6500 all day... then 8:1 comp and procharger.. stephen durr has got it.. insane..

[black2002ls]

i was referring mainly to the fab work on the turbo setup its self with the headers and the piping. depending on how you go about your intercooler, and turbos effects the overall cost. i've seen some pretty nice intercoolers, and all they consisted of were modified units from a dodge diesel pick up. 1800 for the headers. say 1200 for each turbo there is 4200. that leaves 800 for an IC and the piping....i guess i under cut a bit. you could pick up a spearco core for about a grand. and then all of the piping so in the neighbor hood of 6k ...not too far off. but like i said, not for a budget minded build.

[70Dustpan]

Right now I'm building a 67 Valiant that is going to be my daily cruiser. It has a .060" over 318 giving it 327 CID, a late model A Body 4 spd O/D with .73 4th gear, and 3.91 in a 8 3/4 rearend. I'm planning on around 325 to 340 HP out of it and 2700 at 70 MPH in 4th. It has the larger 12" C body disc brakes with .990 torsion bars, and a 1 3/16" front sway bar up front. Out back it has 11x3" C body drums and a 3/4" sway bar. It will weigh in around 3,000 to 3100 LBS with the custom 22 gal. fuel cell full. If I can get the motor to push it that fast it should be good for around 130+ MPH.
My other car is a 70 Duster with a 440/727/8 3/4 with 3.91s and 29.5x15.5x15 M/T

As for going over 140 MPH in a B Body a good buddy of mine had a 70 SuperBee with a 440-4 spd that went 150+ MPH on a regular bases.

[427]

Charley,
Not sure how to do them that cheap. I would even like the 1800 dollar headers. I have 3500 in bends and collecters to make my wagon headers. The only way to do it cheaper would be to use 304 stainless or mild steel, but then the headers would be cracking with age.

On topic. The new generation hemi would be my engine of choice. With stock ex manifold and open pipes my stock one made 360hp at the flywheel. With 7psi of boost (small Rotrex supercharger), we made 480hp (@5200rpm) on the stock engine. With pistons, rods and more boost, 600hp would be easy and driveable.


Kurt

[Majik16106]

how about scott's supercharger set-ups at sd-concepts? why not a 8:1 366 or maybe even a 408 with a procharger p1sc or d1sc? with the .030 over 360 and a forged bottom end with some nice aluminum heads, you could do 6800rpm frequently, imagine a duster or even a challenger with like a kiesler 5 speed with the .64 option. if you ran some decent sized 17s and a 3.73 or even down to a 3.55 to help control the car by giving nice wide gears, your lookin at almost 200mph, not that you'd need it, but if you ask me, thats one hell of a combo, 600hp, 200mph, it could do 11's no prob, build the right suspension, thats one heck of a street car..

[Scotch]

Regarding small vs. big-block Mopars, consider what the car will be used for. I say go stroker SB due to the front/rear weight bias. Should you decide to take this car out on a track, you wouldn't want it to be nose heavy. In drag racing this is obviously much less of a consideration but around a corner the weight becomes more critical.

An aluminum-headed stroked Mopar SB (or new Hemi 6.1) can easily make big power with boost. Back it with the OD trans you're already planning on and you'll have a well-balanced package.

I'd consult with Dick Landy at DLI or Bob Mazzolini on this one. They could certainly engineer a killer pump gas small-block that'd run where you want it to.

Extra points to ya if you go with the new Hemi...that'd be a killer...!!

SP~!

[Majik16106]

i agree 100%, if your talking about a more track minded car, but when your talking about a mostly street car and money being an issue, gotta say, big block seems to be where its at, cheaper, easier, big power. and thats a ton of fun to just drive around. I e-mail back and forth quite a bit with steve vukovich, whose small block cuda was featured in PHR, he uses a roots type blower, the motor developes some 660ish horsepower, lots of fun, but building a small block mopar, very expensive. even compared to a big block. and in mopar vs chevy vs ford world, mopar sb cars have longer strokes, rev slower, etc etc.. but i tend to see the opposite in bb cars, mopar bb cars seem faster for less than the competition. look at the engine masters challenge, the mopar wins hands down with a lot less extreme stuff... and like i said, pro-touring is street driven, some drag, some cornering, so if you go full tubular front end, to ditch the torsion, quick ratio box, nice brake upgrade, fiberglass hood.. i think you can more than justify some added weight in the front end of a bigger mopar.

[race-rodz]

I have 3500 in bends and collecters to make my wagon headers.



are these made from unobtainium or what

[dtedler]

:yes: I'm doing exactly as many of you have written. However, I've taken a little different approach to the driveability of the car instead of getting crazy on horsepower. I have a '73 Challenger, swapped the Keisler TKO 5 speed in last summer, 408 small block, worked the suspension a little to handle decent....notice I did not say great. Old Mopars need help cornering.

The direction that I would take is definitely into the EFI world with any old mopar, the start and throttle response is superior to any carb'd set-up. Supercharging and EFI is way cool but brings a host of upgrades that must be done to support the installation, ie bottom end, blower pistons, roller valve train...it all adds up to an expensive package for track or street.

Another direction may be the 425 horse, 6.1 L Hemi. They will eventually make it to a scrap yard near you! Mount a supercharger onto the front an go eat a few Camaro's. (sorry to the chebbie owners)

How about this... stroked small block, EFI, old school Mr. Norms GSS Paxton supercharger on top for the newstalgia flare (Big, flat black bonnet and all), 5 or 6 speed for the freeway driving and of course AIR CONDITIONING. My 2 cents.

[Majik16106]

efi is a must in my book as well, but working a mopar small block is just expensive, and the big blocks, just so much cheaper for so much more power, originally i was going to use a small block, but my mind has been changed, especially since i have a killer deal on a worked 400 block, making something like 600 horsepower, and revs super quick, the heads have some nice machining, awesome motor. and it was running 6.60's in the 8th in a 2950lb w/ driver valiant before some of the extra mods done since the pull.. so thats enough power for me, and i got it for cheaper than it would cost to rebuild a small block, much less really build a nice one. and awesome/fun street performance. plus ill give a supra turbo or a bolt ls1 car a nasty run for the money on the top end, this motor does 160mph with the overdrive a833 and a 3.55 rear like NO PROBLEM.

[70Dustpan]

Majik16106, Has a 4 spd O/D been ran behind your motor yet? And if it has what has been done to beef it up? I don't think a 4 spd O/D won't hold-up long behind a 600HP big block. 400 HP/400FT is about the safety limit with them. They are just not as strong as the A833.

[Majik16106]

oh i thought i had posted this earlier.. your right, a833 very stong, but there were o/d 833's... and even stronger than stock ones, are the ones built by passon performance.... like what is used in the hammer.. mine is a passon tranny..

[57hemicuda]

I'M JUST PUTTING THE FINISHING TOUCHES ON MY 70 CUDA RAGTOP WWW.57HEMICUDA.COM INSTALLED A 5.7 HEMI,NOT A BAD CONVERSION TO DO.RUNNING ENGINE OFF AN 1998 LS1 COMPUTER AND SENSORS,BECAUSE THE CHRYSLER STUFF IS DEFINITELY NOT BUILT FOR PERFORMANCE.TOOK A WHILE TO GET THE BUGS OUT,BUT WORKS REALLY WELL.LOWERED CAR ABOUT 2 INCHES IN REAR BY FLIPPING SPRING MOUNTS,STILL PLAYING WITH TORSION BARS TO GET THE RIGHT STANCE.GOOD TO HERE FROM SOME OTHER MOPAR GUYS AND SEE SOME OTHER LOW WIDE MOPARS

[BobK]

I'M JUST PUTTING THE FINISHING TOUCHES ON MY 70 CUDA RAGTOP WWW.57HEMICUDACOM INSTALLED A 5.7 HEMI,NOT A BAD CONVERSION TO DO.RUNNING ENGINE OFF AN 1998 LS1 COMPUTER AND SENSORS,BECAUSE THE CHRYSLER STUFF IS DEFINITELY NOT BUILT FOR PERFORMANCE.TOOK A WHILE TO GET THE BUGS OUT,BUT WORKS REALLY WELL.LOWERED CAR ABOUT 2 INCHES IN REAR BY FLIPPING SPRING MOUNTS,STILL PLAYING WITH TORSION BARS TO GET THE RIGHT STANCE.GOOD TO HERE FROM SOME OTHER MOPAR GUYS AND SEE SOME OTHER LOW WIDE MOPARS

Got any details on how you rigged an LS1 computer to work with the Hemi? After driving my Magnum RT for the past year, I'm seriously considering swapping a 5.7 into a 67-69 Barracuda.

Bob

[57hemicuda]

I Also Own A1968 Camaro With An Ls6.and I've Several Harnesses Thru The Years So I Am Pretty Comfortable With The Ls1 Gm Stuff.i Just Like The Way It Is Obii Compatible And You Can Pick Up A Computer And Harness On Ebay For About $300.to Be Truthfull Though It Was Not Easy, Had To Machine The Gm Reluctor Ring To Fit Hemi Crank, Make Adapters For Throttle Body And Cam Sensors. So The Engine Has To Be Disassembled.it Would Be Easier To Run A Fast System If You Can Afford It.i Installed A Comp Cam And Springs ,tti Headers And Msd Coils 16 Of Them!!!but It Looks Cool And Makes Unbelivable Power

[ProStreet R/T]

(v)opar all the way :thumbsup:

What ya got against the magnum motors? My puny little 408 maggie make over 400 to the wheels on crap CA pump gas, with Iron heads and all that CARB crap to boot. I like the fact they use a roller cam stock and you can run any LA head as well.

A nice build, R3 block, 340 mains with 4" stroke, 4.155 bore, make sure it has the 18 bolt heads. W5 heads (if you can find them) and W5 intake, drilled for EFI. You could make 600hp on pump gas no problem N/A, drop the compression, add a pair of GT42R's and 800 isn't a far stretch :hail:

Big blocks are old and busted :_paranoid and generally way too heavy :willy:

If you want something really nasty there was a post on a mopar board where a guy is selling some 358ci pro stock truck motors. R4/P5, top dollar builds for less than those heads cost new.

[57hemicuda]

Magnums Are Cool,have One Of Them Too.but What Other Engine Can You Pull Out Of A Wrecked Car, Stick An Off The Shelf Cam And Headers On And Make Just This Side Of 500 Horsepower , Get 20 Mpg And Have Great Road Manners?beats The Ls Series Chevies And The Ford Mod. Motors

[Majik16106]

my only issue with the new hemi's is you have to use a slushbox, and that just isnt happening in my car

[ProStreet R/T]

my only issue with the new hemi's is you have to use a slushbox, and that just isnt happening in my car

That all depends on the tranny/transaxle you want to use, and how much your willing to spend.

Also has anyone confirmed the hemi doesn't use the same bellhousing pattern as the LA/Mag motors? or even better yet the same as the V10/diesel?

[57hemicuda]

The Hemi Does Have The Same Bellhousing As A Smallblock Mopar,i'm Using A 727 In My Cuda Works Well, But Any Smallblock Bellhousing Will Bolt Up. The Only Difference Is Block To Crank Spacing Is About .100 Taller On The Hemi.you Can Get A Manual Flywheel Right From Chrysler, So That Won't Be An Issue.i'm Already Squirrling Parts Together For A 70 Cuda Hardtop I'm Going To Put A Stick In

[ProStreet R/T]

The Hemi Does Have The Same Bellhousing As A Smallblock Mopar,i'm Using A 727 In My Cuda Works Well, But Any Smallblock Bellhousing Will Bolt Up. The Only Difference Is Block To Crank Spacing Is About .100 Taller On The Hemi.you Can Get A Manual Flywheel Right From Chrysler, So That Won't Be An Issue.i'm Already Squirrling Parts Together For A 70 Cuda Hardtop I'm Going To Put A Stick In

Sweet so toss a T-56 behind that new hemi and your ready to rock :hail: .100" won't be hard to fix, either shave the BH or cut a spacer, not the end of the world.

[Mean 69]

We are working with a new business that is doing an engine management setup for the later HEMI engines. Their controller seems to be pretty good, very tunable, and they are doing a great job wringing out power from the HEMI crate motors (510 HP with a cam swap and some mild head work).

The car we are building to develop the suspension system is getting a stroker 440. It is a big heavy motor, but it is also a big heavy car (B-body), and it will make big, heavy power. We are looking well into the 650 HP area on pump gas, with nothing terribly exotic. It'll use Indy heads and intake, stock block, and a roller cam. Bang for the buck, on this car, it can't be beat in that we already have a good block. Should be a lot of fun.
M

[Majik16106]

so,i can take passon 4sp,or a tko or whatever with la engine bellhousing,buy the mopar flywheel,and use la series clutch.... cool. sorry,but i want to see it done before i dump a ton of cash and start having to spend a billion more having all sorts of **** custom machined. so an original a833 input shaft wont have a problem behind the hemi?
if someone gets this to work before i get started,i will go this route, but i want to see it first.

and keep us up to date on the ecu program,it sounds great

[57hemicuda]

several of the mopar magazines have done articles on the tremec swap to the new hemi.keisler makes a direct bolt in set up,but i'm still debaiting on the 833 vs. tremec on my hardtop.the 833 doesn't reqiuire any bellhousing modifications.trying to make a more informative site on my cuda convertible http://mysite.verizon.net/ls6ron/