Headers for LS2 in 1st gen camaro

[rich-allen]

Alright, I called Kooks and they told me "they didn't make a set of headers that fit an LS2 in a 67 camaro". Scott has a set for his LS7 and I know I seen them on an LS2 before.

What gives? I know S&P sells them but I was set on Kooks.
Any help would be appreciated.

Rich

[fletcherscustoms]

I just happen to have new set of Stainless 304 stepped headers from ATS for sale in the classifieds

[Teetoe_Jones]

Rich-

Good talking with you on the phone. The Kooks headers that Scott has were for a 4th gen, and a few tubes were modded to make them fit. He is also running a Wayne Due frame that uses stock style parts, but the clearances are not the same as a factory frame.

Tyler

[rich-allen]

Great talking to you also Tyler.

After everything I learned talking to you, I decided buy your headers. After spending $3k today and the $12K I spent the week before I need to wait at least till middle of next week before I pull the trigger.

Talk to then,

Rich

[shanekennedy]

http://www.stainlessworks.net/cart/index.php?cPath=379_237_250_251&osCsid=3471572e0dfbbc09694eea3e2d47334c

just ordered a set of these for my 68 thru group purchase

[rich-allen]

With my heads, cam, roller rockers and intake, I need 1-7/8" headers and SS works doesn't make them.

[PTAddict]

With my heads, cam, roller rockers and intake, I need 1-7/8" headers and SS works doesn't make them.

Rich,

I wouldn't assume you need 1 7/8 headers. In fact, I'll go stronger than that - 1 7/8 headers may very well lose average power compared to 1 3/4 on your combo. You have to remember that LSx motors have about 1.60 dia exhaust valves, and exhaust ports no bigger than about 1 5/8 at their widest dimension. Going too large on header diameter just loses scavenging efficiency without substantially improving flow, because the exhaust port becomes the primary restriction.

My LS1 AFR/FAST 90/Cam car made an easy 453 RWHP with 1 3/4 headers. LG motorsports has made over 600 RWHP on radically modified LS7s - with 1 3/4 headers. I'd go with headers that are well constructed and fit. And there are really just three choices for "off-the-shelf" - Stainless works, Hooker, and ATS (ATS will shoot me for calling theirs off-the-shelf).

Edit: And I should add, before Tyler jumps in here, that their 4-2-1 design does offer theoretical advantages in creating a broader powerband, and definite physical advantages in ground clearance. They are the headers I plan to use on my '69 LS7 project, and if money is not a major object ... go for it.

[Teetoe_Jones]

We worked with Burns and Katech to develop our header lengths, diameter and steps to make the most power we can over the entire power curve. LSX engines like to breathe, and the LS2 is no exception to this. the 1-7/8" primary to a 2" to a 2-1/8" to a 3-1/2" collector was determined to be ideal for the engines. I trust Katech over anyone in the LSX industry to make that call.

Tyler

[PTAddict]

Sorry to keep beating this thread, but I'm always bugged when people get too obsessed with big headers. Headers are probably the most poorly understood element of a high performance engine. Headers aren't there to assist "breathing" in the sense of maximizing exhaust flow - otherwise, all headers would be designed with the largest, shortest primaries possible, dumping into the largest collector possible, and we'd be done with it. Headers are actually tuning devices designed to assist *intake* flow, and a too-large header will not do its job as well.

Here's an article from David Vizard which does a nice job of simply summarizing the role of headers and exhaust in a high-performance engine:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0505em_exh/index.html

And if you're more into it, and can handle a slightly more technical discussion, download the Dynomation user's manual and read the chapter on Wave Dynamics analysis from this location (warning - 40+ MB):

http://proracingsim.com/downloads/ProgramDemos/Dynomation-UsersManual.pdf

And if you're really into it, like me, buy the actual Dynomation product and fascinate yourself experimenting with different intake, cam, and header designs and watching the effects on such things as P-V traces and HP/Torque curves.

[chicane]

...If your really, really into it...

Learn about and utilize the Burns "X-Program". It was one of the more profound reasons ATS worked with Burns to develop their LSx header.

Its not an obsession. Its an insight overlooked by far too many.

[PTAddict]

Yeah, I'm familiar with X-design (it's existence and general purpose, not the S/W itself which I believe is proprietary to Burns). But X-design requires, as any header designer logically would, a bunch of inputs specific to the particular engine the header is designed for. Displacement, cam timing, desired power band, port lengths and cross sections, compression ratio, etc. Change these parameters, and the answers (pipe diameters and lengths, collector lengths, etc) will also logically change, no? So I'm not so convinced that one set of primary diameters is correct for all LSx motors from mild 346s to wild 427s or bigger ...

On Dynomation, when two pipe diameters are close in power, you can observe that the "best" diameter will change when you alter the exhaust valve open point by just a few degrees. In the real world, we just don't have the luxury of experimenting with multiple combinations of header pipe diameters and lengths, so we go with a more generic design which gets us close. Some of those generic designs, like the LG Motorsports long tube merge collector 4-1 headers, seem to consistently produce more area under the torque curve than other designs. I would hope, and even expect, that the ATS headers would yield similar results. But to date, there is a dearth of empirical data to support that expectation one way or the other.

And as I said, I really like those headers and expect to use them on my project. And my comment about "obsession" was directed to those who automatically assume bigger is better when it comes to pipe diameter.

[Teetoe_Jones]

We make 2 sizes of header primary tubes, but for the big cubic inch displacement (400 cu in and higher) the 1-7/8" is the best we have found.

Tyler