mild corner car

[GM Muscle]

ok guys.. this is gonna be a mess of words but i'd like some opinions from those who have been and there done that.. im on a budget so the lady dont get mad at me and kick me out so bare with me

as of right now i have a mild mannered 69 camaro with 4 wheel drum brakes, factory everything, and needless to say it isnt as aggressive as id like it to be.

so..id like to turn this car around and build a light duty touring car.. i have pretty good fab skills and access to lasers and all sorts of goodies...

ive already got the parts together for a 700r4 swap and plan on doing it this weekend..

1.i would like to replace all the bushings in the car with delrin... ive made a few sets for my rear control arms in my chevelle and realize the ride will be rougher than rubber.. i dont want poly because of squeaking and dont want rubber because of deflection.. i can deal with a little bit harsher ride as long as performance is gained.. can any one see a problem with building a completley delrin suspension? is there a scource to find the demensions im going to need or am i going to have to tear the car down then make the bushings? and should i go with all moog steering parts?

2. having 4 wheel drums isnt all that bad but isnt all that great either.. ive got them dialed about as tight as i can but im not satisfied.. i found a template to build a caliper bracket for ls1 style fbody brakes.. i already have a front and rear caliper, basket and rotor set laying around so it wouldnt cost me a dime.. i also already have a power assisted z28 master cylinder so as long as i switched to 4 wheel disks i shouldnt need a new one.. does anyone see anything wrong with this swap?

3. im totally lost on spring rates and what i should use. i currently have cut springs and love my ride height. its a factory small block car with power steering and no ac.. where would i see the most performace gain with an aftermarket spring and what shock should i look for? also is there a huge gain with aftermarket sway bars?

4. ive found an aftermarket wheel company that offers zo6 style wheels in a 17x8.5. will an 8.5" rim work on the front of my car with the 4th gen brake swap and what backspacing would i need.. i can buy the whole set for 600 bucks.. i dont mind using spacers if i need to.. i plan on mocking them up to make sure but a forewarning would be nice.

5. i also plan on installing an art morrison roll cage that goes up the front of the frame rails and a pair of integrated subframe connectors. i read that morrisions cages are all cad designed.. how well do they fit?

6. ive heard and read all the ups and downs of the guldstrand mod and am willing to give it a shot since its essentially free.

aside from all that ive listed above do you guys know of any other cost efficient mods and or parts that i could benifit from to help my car handle and corner like a camaro should? do you see any conflicts with my plans? any help would be appreciated.. ive done so much research im about to pull my hair out.. id rather hear it all from an expirienced crowd..

[sinned]

ok guys.. this is gonna be a mess of words but i'd like some opinions from those who have been and there done that.. im on a budget so the lady dont get mad at me and kick me out so bare with me

as of right now i have a mild mannered 69 camaro with 4 wheel drum brakes, factory everything, and needless to say it isnt as aggressive as id like it to be.

so..id like to turn this car around and build a light duty touring car.. i have pretty good fab skills and access to lasers and all sorts of goodies...

ive already got the parts together for a 700r4 swap and plan on doing it this weekend..

1.i would like to replace all the bushings in the car with delrin... ive made a few sets for my rear control arms in my chevelle and realize the ride will be rougher than rubber.. i dont want poly because of squeaking and dont want rubber because of deflection.. i can deal with a little bit harsher ride as long as performance is gained.. can any one see a problem with building a completley delrin suspension? is there a scource to find the demensions im going to need or am i going to have to tear the car down then make the bushings? and should i go with all moog steering parts?Go with the Delrin bushings. AFCO sells a pair of bushings that are direct replacement and are pretty inexpensive

2. having 4 wheel drums isnt all that bad but isnt all that great either.. ive got them dialed about as tight as i can but im not satisfied.. i found a template to build a caliper bracket for ls1 style fbody brakes.. i already have a front and rear caliper, basket and rotor set laying around so it wouldnt cost me a dime.. i also already have a power assisted z28 master cylinder so as long as i switched to 4 wheel disks i shouldnt need a new one.. does anyone see anything wrong with this swap? Go with the LS1 brakes

3. im totally lost on spring rates and what i should use. i currently have cut springs and love my ride height. its a factory small block car with power steering and no ac.. where would i see the most performace gain with an aftermarket spring and what shock should i look for? also is there a huge gain with aftermarket sway bars?I like the hiiden adjusters and circle track springs

4. ive found an aftermarket wheel company that offers zo6 style wheels in a 17x8.5. will an 8.5" rim work on the front of my car with the 4th gen brake swap and what backspacing would i need.. i can buy the whole set for 600 bucks.. i dont mind using spacers if i need to.. i plan on mocking them up to make sure but a forewarning would be nice.Not sure, wait for the Camaro guys

5. i also plan on installing an art morrison roll cage that goes up the front of the frame rails and a pair of integrated subframe connectors. i read that morrisions cages are all cad designed.. how well do they fit?

6. ive heard and read all the ups and downs of the guldstrand mod and am willing to give it a shot since its essentially free. I wasn't aware of any downs

aside from all that ive listed above do you guys know of any other cost efficient mods and or parts that i could benifit from to help my car handle and corner like a camaro should?Shocks. Also look into some good shocks. And if i forgot to say it already, get some good shocks. Koni builds a decent product. do you see any conflicts with my plans? any help would be appreciated.. ive done so much research im about to pull my hair out.. id rather hear it all from an expirienced crowd..Research, research, and more research befroe you buy.

[GM Muscle]

thanks for the info on afco.. i knew they made several products but totatly spaced out haha.. i will definatley check into it.. im assuming the circle track springs can be purchased in the same catalog.. guess im gonna have to bust out the old smilies performance catalog.. on the guldstrand thing ive heard its a hit or miss.. all cars react differently and there are some weird situations.. im willing to give it a shot.. now that i got a more specific product to research instead of a whole broad field it will help.. thanks for the input dennis.. anyone else got anything to add?

[deuce_454]

id say that if you are any good at fabricating you can get prety far, gulstrand is free and reversible.. so do it! also if you have access to a lathe there is no reason not to do delrin or even better aluminum/teflon bushings... also solid frame mounts are a good and cheap upgrade if you can do it yourself.. id also minitub it just to fit some wider rears, i mean if you are buying new rims anyway, the difference isnt that much.. also boxing the stock controll arms are a cheap and very advisable modification. id buy some sway bars and a quicker steering box.. possibly on ebay


with regards to brakes my suggestion on a budget is to fit brakes from a 98 up f-body, can be had cheaply on ebay.. you need to do some brackets up front, and clock them in the rear.. but again not impossible by far

[Mkelcy]

2. having 4 wheel drums isnt all that bad but isnt all that great either.. ive got them dialed about as tight as i can but im not satisfied.. i found a template to build a caliper bracket for ls1 style fbody brakes.. i already have a front and rear caliper, basket and rotor set laying around so it wouldnt cost me a dime.. i also already have a power assisted z28 master cylinder so as long as i switched to 4 wheel disks i shouldnt need a new one.. does anyone see anything wrong with this swap?
I have them on my '68 and love them. You'll need to turn down your drum hubs to fit inside the F-body rotors and machine the spindle to get the mounting points for the bracket in the same plane. If you're not totally averse to spending money, Speedtech makes a bracket that is designed to work with the drum spindle mounting points. Not a big deal in either case. Also, an S10 truck "quick takeup" master cylinder works pretty well if you want to stay with manual brakes. Take a look at David Pozzi's site.

4. ive found an aftermarket wheel company that offers zo6 style wheels in a 17x8.5. will an 8.5" rim work on the front of my car with the 4th gen brake swap and what backspacing would i need.. i can buy the whole set for 600 bucks.. i dont mind using spacers if i need to.. i plan on mocking them up to make sure but a forewarning would be nice.
Stock C5 front wheels are 17" x 8.5" with a 56mm "offset." I have a set on my '68 with 2" bolt-on spacers. On the rears on my car I have the stock C5 18" x 9.5" rear wheels with a 65mm offset. I have them on my car with 2.125" spacers, although my fenders are rolled in the wheel well. You might also look for a set of C5 "take-offs" where you can get the wheels and tires as a package. Big, low profile tires are expensive. I'm using Nitto 555's now and am pretty happy with them.

6. ive heard and read all the ups and downs of the guldstrand mod and am willing to give it a shot since its essentially free. The Guldstrand mod, modern wheels and tires and a rebuilt front end will transform your car. In a first generation F-body, I've not heard of any bad results.

aside from all that ive listed above do you guys know of any other cost efficient mods and or parts that i could benifit from to help my car handle and corner like a camaro should?

Good shocks front and rear.

Weld in subframe connectors - see Carl Casanova's site for home made DSE style connectors. They make a huge difference.

I'd pass on the cage for now, assuming the car is otherwise solid.

Good sway bar up front, none on the rear.

Third generation IROC power stering box.

Make sure the steering is good or rebuild it. Moog parts are fine.

Realign using specs on David Pozzi's page.

[GM Muscle]

id say that if you are any good at fabricating you can get prety far, gulstrand is free and reversible.. so do it! also if you have access to a lathe there is no reason not to do delrin or even better aluminum/teflon bushings... also solid frame mounts are a good and cheap upgrade if you can do it yourself.. id also minitub it just to fit some wider rears, i mean if you are buying new rims anyway, the difference isnt that much.. also boxing the stock controll arms are a cheap and very advisable modification. id buy some sway bars and a quicker steering box.. possibly on ebay


with regards to brakes my suggestion on a budget is to fit brakes from a 98 up f-body, can be had cheaply on ebay.. you need to do some brackets up front, and clock them in the rear.. but again not impossible by far

thanks.. like i said i have an entire 4th gen brake setup in my shop.. so that will be the route i take.. and i do have access to a lathe and press.. im still gonna check out the afco line i might save me some time.. the brackets up front that you speak of: i printed off a template i found on i think it was pozziracing.com or something like that.. i had a 6" reference liine on it so you can print it out, make sure it measures 6" and cut it out.. i think its the right plate.. if not it wont be that hard to figure out what i need.. the main problem i face is that the car is my daily driver and id like any mods i do to be a weekend job..

[GM Muscle]

I have them on my '68 and love them. You'll need to turn down your drum hubs to fit inside the F-body rotors and machine the spindle to get the mounting points for the bracket in the same plane. If you're not totally averse to spending money, Speedtech makes a bracket that is designed to work with the drum spindle mounting points. Not a big deal in either case. Also, an S10 truck "quick takeup" master cylinder works pretty well if you want to stay with manual brakes. Take a look at David Pozzi's site.

yeah i printed about 40 pages off from his site and got a good general idea.. i alread have power brakes so im not too sure about switching to manual..


Stock C5 front wheels are 17" x 8.5" with a 56mm "offset." I have a set on my '68 with 2" bolt-on spacers. On the rears on my car I have the stock C5 18" x 9.5" rear wheels with a 65mm offset. I have them on my car with 2.125" spacers, although my fenders are rolled in the wheel well. You might also look for a set of C5 "take-offs" where you can get the wheels and tires as a package. Big, low profile tires are expensive. I'm using Nitto 555's now and am pretty happy with them.

i have a full set of 245/45/17's sitting in my shop that i bought for my girlfriends car but they werent michelins so she didnt want them haha.. i realize they arent the widest tires but i have them laying around and they have to be an improvement over the fats and skinnies i have now..

The Guldstrand mod, modern wheels and tires and a rebuilt front end will transform your car. In a first generation F-body, I've not heard of any bad results.

thats what my hopes were



Good shocks front and rear.

you agree with using koni?

Weld in subframe connectors - see Carl Casanova's site for home made DSE style connectors. They make a huge difference.

I'd pass on the cage for now, assuming the car is otherwise solid.

Good sway bar up front, none on the rear.

Third generation IROC power stering box.

Make sure the steering is good or rebuild it. Moog parts are fine.

Realign using specs on David Pozzi's page.

thanks.. i planned using his site to build my connectors..

[Mkelcy]

you agree with using koni?

I have adjustable Koni's. If I were to do it over again, I'd have ATS spec a set of Bilsteins for me.

[sinned]

I have adjustable Koni's. If I were to do it over again, I'd have ATS spec a set of Bilsteins for me.

you agree with using koni?

Either are very good. A set of spec'd Bilsteins is not a better option than a set of spec'd Konis, just a different option.

[David Pozzi]

The recomendations are good.
All I would add is you need to run about 5 degrees of positive caster and can probably only achieve 3 deg positive with stock upper arms even with the Guldstrand mod.

Consider either making your own upper arms with more caster built in, or relocate your upper A arm brackets about 7/8" to the rear and use your stock arms.

Other things I like are
AFCO delrin A arm bushings I don't know if these have the side "washers" that a Global West bushing kit would have. You might be able to make some.
Stock car stock appearing coils, 5" OD X 9.5" tall. Use a threaded adjuster on top, cut it to fit your upper spring pocket taper.

I don't have a big block spring bar setup but the tuners like Guldstrand or Hotchkis would probably use a 650 front coil rate and a 175lb/in rear leaf rate. Stock is 325/110.

You can drop the front rate for a better ride but 550 is probably minimum unless you just cruse it. A lot depends on horsepower, tire size, and how agressive you want to drive it. Also, the lower you go with the ride height, the stiffer your springs have to be.

A small block Camaro is going to need a 1" solid bar up front and depending on rear spring rate, some kind of rear bar.
David

[GM Muscle]

The recomendations are good.
All I would add is you need to run about 5 degrees of positive caster and can probably only achieve 3 deg positive with stock upper arms even with the Guldstrand mod.

Consider either making your own upper arms with more caster built in, or relocate your upper A arm brackets about 7/8" to the rear and use your stock arms.

Other things I like are
AFCO delrin A arm bushings I don't know if these have the side "washers" that a Global West bushing kit would have. You might be able to make some.
Stock car stock appearing coils, 5" OD X 9.5" tall. Use a threaded adjuster on top, cut it to fit your upper spring pocket taper.

I don't have a big block spring bar setup but the tuners like Guldstrand or Hotchkis would probably use a 650 front coil rate and a 175lb/in rear leaf rate. Stock is 325/110.

You can drop the front rate for a better ride but 550 is probably minimum unless you just cruse it. A lot depends on horsepower, tire size, and how agressive you want to drive it. Also, the lower you go with the ride height, the stiffer your springs have to be.

A small block Camaro is going to need a 1" solid bar up front and depending on rear spring rate, some kind of rear bar.
David


haha.. man i printed about 40 pages off your site and the guldstrand mod looks to be the way to go! im gonna give it a shot for sure..

what do you think about the afco upper a arms? i noticed they sell a 4bolt style ball joint to go with them which is supposed to raise the roll center.. at 45bucks a peice i thought id give them a try.. you think they would work ok with the GuldMod? the part number is ss101-100 and the ball joint is af20032-1..

i looked through smileys catalog today and didnt see the afco delrin bushings just solid steels that i was gonna hone out and press some delrin in.. ill do a little more research.. i did see they had the springs your talking about and the adjusters.. and i also agree with the spring rates.. whats your take on the afco shocks.. i noticed you could get different valving..

[GM Muscle]

Either are very good. A set of spec'd Bilsteins is not a better option than a set of spec'd Konis, just a different option.


im going to do a little more research on both brands and see what i come up with.. thanks guys..

[David Pozzi]

I can't find ss101-100 on their site, is that an AFCO part number?
I'm not aware of an arm they make to fit a Camaro.

The balljoint AF20032 I did find but not AF20032-1. AF20032 is a second gen stock balljoint which is 10 deg taper not 7 deg which is what you need.

Generally a late 60's pickup UBJ is used by circle trackers as a tall UBJ. The problem with that is, the bolt pattern is similar to a first gen but it's larger and requires your stock arm to be sectioned and a new balljoint seat welded in. Many of the AFCO upper arms take this larger balljoint so stock balljoints may not bolt in. You need to make sure what size UBJ the arms will take. Also the arms appear to be flat so they may not have the correct angle for the ball joint.
I'd be cautious is what I'm trying to say. Their arms look nice but there can be drawbacks. I don't see any that have enough caster built-in.

If you buy Delrin (Acetal) get the stronger "reinforced" Delrin which has Fiberglass in it. But when you machine it, wear a mask and it'll be itchy to handle the shavings.
David

[GM Muscle]

I can't find ss101-100 on their site, is that an AFCO part number?
I'm not aware of an arm they make to fit a Camaro.

The balljoint AF20032 I did find but not AF20032-1. AF20032 is a second gen stock balljoint which is 10 deg taper not 7 deg which is what you need.

Generally a late 60's pickup UBJ is used by circle trackers as a tall UBJ. The problem with that is, the bolt pattern is similar to a first gen but it's larger and requires your stock arm to be sectioned and a new balljoint seat welded in. Many of the AFCO upper arms take this larger balljoint so stock balljoints may not bolt in. You need to make sure what size UBJ the arms will take. Also the arms appear to be flat so they may not have the correct angle for the ball joint.
I'd be cautious is what I'm trying to say. Their arms look nice but there can be drawbacks. I don't see any that have enough caster built-in.

If you buy Delrin (Acetal) get the stronger "reinforced" Delrin which has Fiberglass in it. But when you machine it, wear a mask and it'll be itchy to handle the shavings.
David

they were just universal control arms.. ill pass on them.. where do you reccomend looking for the 7 degree taper.. does moog offer them? all the part numbers i go were out of a smileys racing catalog.. im was hoping some one sold just delrin bushing inserts but i cant find them so im just gonna buy a stick and machine them down.. ive also herd of several ppl just running solid upper bushings with the delrin insterts in the just the lowers.. whats your take on this.. i tried to register over at the camaro site but for some reason i never got the confirmation email..

[GM Muscle]

www.smileysracing.com

[David Pozzi]

AFCO makes a "lightweight lower A arm bushing that is Delrin, but I don't know if they have the uppers.
Lowers for chevelle, should fit Camaro: http://www.secureperformanceorder.com/afcostore/getproduct.cfm?CategoryID=8&ClassID=113&SubclassID=530&ProductID=787

These are solid uppers that may fit: http://www.secureperformanceorder.com/afcostore/getproduct.cfm?CategoryID=8&ClassID=114&SubclassID=532&ProductID=792

You could bush these with delrin I guess. I ran the Guldstrand solid upper bushings on my 67 and they were fine.

The AFCO "offset" arms could be used, but they require new frame mounts that have the proper hole spacing, and the mounts would have to be positioned to the rear quite a bit because their A arms are not as offset as the stock arms.

You don't need taller upper balljoints if you do the Guldstrand mod.
If you did want taller upper balljoints, Mark at SC&C has some made by Howe that are beautiful. The Truck upper balljoint I mentioned requires not only the wider bolt pattern in the A arm, but the tapered hole in your spindle needs to be reamed larger. Not a lot of fun to do in a hard spindle, and not needed with the Gmod.

David

[GM Muscle]

ok.. i think im just gonna try the solid uppers out.. but i was under the impression that the "light weight" bushings were nylon.. i think ill just wait and save up for the control arms now.. ive been studying your spring rate page and want to throw a little money that direction anyways..

im gonna go with the 9.5 inch spring and an adjuster.. solid uppers.. delrin lowers.. koni's all 4 corners.. delrin rear bushings.. iroc steering box.. guldstrand mod.. box my factory control arms.. 99 camaro discs all the way around.. integrated subframe connectors.. 1" front sway bar.. no rear sway bar.. 45 series tires on 17 inch rims... and if my wallet allows it hotchkis rear leafs..

whats your take on rear shock location and angle for touring?

thank you everyone for all the help so far..

[David Pozzi]

You are going to need tubular upper arms to achieve enough positive caster. Global West arms are pretty cheap if you get them bare. You need the type of cross shaft that has male studs on each end, not bolts, - the bolt type will come loose.

Yes the "lightweight" lower bushings are Delrin.

A rear antiroll bar may be needed if you use a rear leaf spring in the 175 lb range. If you go with a 250 lb rear spring, you probably won't need the rear bar. This assumes you have close to 700 lb front coils, and a 1" solid front bar or 1 1/8" hollow front bar.

If your horsepower is 500+, then the 250 rear leaf package may be better.

I'm less happy with Hotchkis leafs after using them on my wifes second gen. The pinion angle went way off when we installed them and I had to use 8 degrees of shims on the axle to get it corrected.
We just installed Global West 240lb leaf springs and only had to use a 2 deg shim.

The Hotchkis did ride pretty well and would make most people happy as far as rate, but we open track and autocross this car a LOT and felt like we needed to try a step stiffer.
David