Anybody run a manual trans with BIG power???

[nitrorocket]

I am contemplating on possibly switching my T400 for a T56 or TKO trans. I have 1000 hp and 800 ftlb of torque but I only run low profile 17" tires. The car does a 1.6 60' and weighs 3600 lbs without driver.

Reason I am thinking about this is for the extra gears for top speed and driveability on the road track and standing mile challanges I would like to do next year.

Any experience? I am trying to find out from those with similar setups what there pro's and con's are.

Thanks for any info.

[chevymitchell]

Jerico makes a 5 speed road race transmission that has had 1300 horsepower run through it. The article explains everything. Check this out...

http://www.jericoperformance.com/3.html

Good Luck

[nitrorocket]

That thing costs as much as my whole car. I have a pretty tight budget. I have a few people who would trade me a t56 setup for my trans. One guy will trade me a t56 setup for my converter!!

[71Nova]

I think T56's can handle more power than they are rated at but I still believe that if you have good traction your 1000 horespower would destroy a stock t56. I have one and love it, but I only have around 400 horse. Here are some links for t56 stuff. You should be all right with a t56 that is modified for the power. You might want to consider a gear vendors under/over with your th400, or a 4l80e and paddle shift.

http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com/default.htm

http://www.ddperformance.com/

http://www.t56rebuilds.com/index.html

[chevymitchell]

If you can get that T56 to handle the 1000 HP reliably then that would be the budget way to go, but the Jerico isn't going to break. You have an awesome ride by the sounds of it. I woulld save my pennies to be sure the trans isn't going to explode on launches.

[Stuart Adams]

Leave it the way it is.

[rocketman]

A T-56 is the best bet,I have D&D built T56 in my 94 Z/28 and has taken alot of abuse with no problem,it has everything done to it.I have a stock viper T-56 in my 69 vette with no problems.

A T-56 is the inexpensive way to go,I know some guys who run 9's on stock T-56's.


A for the TKO 600 I had one and wasn't happy with it,sold it to a friend who had to have the thing rebuilt to work right,this was a brand unit.

The biggest key to lots of power throu a manual is the clutch.

[Scotch]

I also love my T56 (done by Rockland Standard www.rsgear.com)

However...

If I was you at 1,000 hp (I'm only at 700), I'd go Richmond 6-speed.

I've driven the Richmond 6 and it's much more civilized than the Jerico.

I might also look into a Jeffco, but the Richmond is a killer piece that can handle that level of power and still shift like a 'real' transmission.

~SP~

[Stuart Adams]

Aerodynamics are the issue with super high speeds. That is why I said leave it alone. All options said so far are fine and dandy but safety and aerodynamics should be addressed first, IMO.

[rocketman]

A Richmond 6 spd will only handle about 500 ft pds of tq,last time I talked to Richmond

[chevymitchell]

When it comes to manual transmissions, it's going to be very hard to find one that is going to be "in budget" that is going to handle the power you're pushing. If you stay automatic, your choices are almost endless. You may be better off staying auto.

Stuart had a very good point, by worrying about how the car is going to handle at high speeds (140+). Any car can hit 120 mph going straight and be ok, but to do a standing mile without making sure the front end stays down is almost reckless. Stay safe and stay auto.

[bob johnson]

I also love my T56 (done by Rockland Standard www.rsgear.com)

However...

If I was you at 1,000 hp (I'm only at 700), I'd go Richmond 6-speed.

I've driven the Richmond 6 and it's much more civilized than the Jerico.

I might also look into a Jeffco, but the Richmond is a killer piece that can handle that level of power and still shift like a 'real' transmission.

~SP~

Rocklands new T-56 is supposed to handle over 1,000hp..if you don't have wheel hop..

[3kidsnotime]

How much torque does your engine make, Thats the damage control.. Are you going to run slicks on a drag strip? On the street on street tires I would think the weak point would be the tires

[nitrorocket]

I only run 315/35/17 tires, road race slicks. I make 800 fltb of torque.

[J2SpeedandCustom]

I wouldn't run a T-56 unless it's got the G-force gear set in it. Been there done that! Know too many people that try and get away with a setup, because someone ran a low 1/4 or made big power through a setup. But for abuse over and over you'll want reliablity. Don't forget about the clutch! With that much power your going to want a multi-disk setup. Expect $6k - $8k for a setup that will last.

I went through 3 different clutches in one season until I finally got smart and shelled out the money for a Tilton carbon/carbon setup. The Tilton cost as much as the other 3 clutches, but it was the last one I ever bought!

[Ummgawa]

I'd play more Golf if I could get a Golfcart with a 4 speed in it. I love to shift em.

[clill]

The Mule has a reworked Viper T56. I probably do similar driving to what you are talking about and it has been fine. The last few thousand miles have been with twin turbos. Don't get too stupid and you should be fine. LOL..Somewhere on this site is the video of it pulling 6th gear to 200 mph on the chassis dyno and I didn't see parts flying. :D

[Steve Chryssos]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Nitro is looking for an affordable, street friendly, reliable 1000HP/200mph drivetrain combo. He don't want to spend $5K

I think it is reasonable to say that he will need to spend some coin to accomplish his goals.

[KAA]

How's this for 6 speed strength?

http://www.undergroundracing.com/video/Underground-Garth-World-Rec.wmv

:eek:

[nitrorocket]

:D Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Nitro is looking for an affordable, street friendly, reliable 1000HP/200mph drivetrain combo. He don't want to spend $5K

I think it is reasonable to say that he will need to spend some coin to accomplish his goals.


Street... I sense a little sarcasm. I put up this post to see what is out there and what people have for experience on this. I have seen some guys running the stock t56 at over 1000 hp and 1000 ftlb of torque, that is why I asked what people think.

Right now, It looks like I either have to trade my $3300 T400 even up for a mildly built T56 and good clutch, or a built 4L80E setup. I have guys that will trade even up for them. Both do not seem to be the best for what I need, But the 4L80 would allow me to buy one of those awesome paddle shift wheels from that sarcastic guy on here, but then I cannot do the standing mile.. :_paranoid :D

I have talked to all the 1000 ftlb torque guys with the stock T56 (real life experience)and they say if you do not power shift it will be fine at my power level. To me that says alot. Sure anything can break, but being that these guys feel confident that I will be fine and they are the some of the fastest hardcore street/drag cars around, that says alot.

[Steve Chryssos]

No way, there was no sarcasm intended. To the contrary, you mentioned here or on P-T that you were considering the swap because a manual trans became available and because $5K is out of your price range. My answer was: Expect to spend some money.

You asked and my answer is that 1000HP and 200mph is an unrealistic expectation for stock parts. Ask yourself how much clutch clamping force is required to harness that power and the forces such as aero drag that will oppose that power. What about driveshaft rpm in double overdrive? Have you done the math? You shoud be gearing for 200mph in 1:1--not overdrive.

I sincerely apologize of you interpreted my response as sarcasm. It wasn't. But I'm also not gonna blow sunshine up your ass. 1000hp is a lot of power. I don't care if Joe Blow's car is getting it done, because Joe Blow doesn't put food on my table--or yours. If your drivetrain blows up because you talked yourself into an inferior, oversimplified choice--you'll spend 150%-300% of the original correct estimate cleaning up the mess.

Manual or auto--expect to spend some money. That sounds like a mature, fair assessment.

[Steve Chryssos]

....But the 4L80 would allow me to buy one of those awesome paddle shift wheels from that sarcastic guy on here, but then I cannot do the standing mile..

Don't do a 4L80E unless you are geared for 1:1. Overdrive will not hold at 200mph--It was designed for economy--not racing.

[nitrorocket]

How's this for 6 speed strength?

http://www.undergroundracing.com/video/Underground-Garth-World-Rec.wmv

:eek:


I've seen that! Stock case Viper T56 making about 1700 hp!

[nitrorocket]

This is where I stand at this moment. I have 3 people that will trade an entire T56 setup for my trans. Sounds like the stock T56 will hold all my power, but I can NEVER power shift. I t would allow me to do everything I want to, but. Down the road the option to power shift will cost me about $1000 bucks. I would have to do some work to get it in.

2 guys have a 4l80 with just a mild performance rebuild, Will go right in but will not do a standing mile. But would be nice with my LS1 pcm... :yes:

[Steve Chryssos]

This is where I stand at this moment. I have 3 people that will trade an entire T56 setup for my trans. Sounds like the stock T56 will hold all my power, but I can NEVER power shift. I t would allow me to do everything I want to, but. Down the road the option to power shift will cost me about $1000 bucks. I would have to do some work to get it in.

2 guys have a 4l80 with just a mild performance rebuild, Will go right in but will not do a standing mile. But would be nice with my LS1 pcm... :yes:

That assessment is exactly accurate. As for the 4L80E swap you will gain better control over calibration as compared to you TH400. In either case, your standing mile is best achieved with the trans in 3rd gear (not OD) and a gear splitter hanging off the rear. That will also shorten your driveshaft--which is a very good thing at overdriven RPM.

If it helps, Mark Bowler makes electronics that will gear change (actuate electric shift solenoids) and gear split (actuate GV) a 4L80E from my paddle shifter. So you get a six speed with the shifter in 3rd (D) for racing use and an eight speed for economy use (when the shifter is moved to 4th OD). That won't help you accomplish all of your goals today, but it gives you something to shoot for. 4L80E and stock pcm now, Gear Vendor and Bowler electronics down the line.

[nitrorocket]

Hmmmm. :unibrow:

I contacted FLT and they told me there 4l80 will handle full power for short periods of time in 4th as long as I let off the throttle during the 4th gear shift.

I could always have this mod done in the future.

[Steve Chryssos]

.... full power for short periods of time in 4th...

Read between the lines. That phrase is contrary to a 200mph banzai run. If you're gearing for O.D. you will need to be in 4th for a good long while. My guess is that shortly after shifting into 4th, the car will begin to shudder from insufficient friction surface. What is your top speed now at 1:1? A 4L80E shares more than 70% of it's parts with a TH400. So you already have a fair performance comparison at your disposal.

p.s.
See? No sarcasm. I was only trying to be straight with you--good news or bad. My customers come to appreciate my brutal honesty. Saves em money and grief in the long run.

[slownova]

for the record i have to change my second gear syncos about every 800 miles and i have 618/648.

[deuce_454]

a tilton, carbon/carbon clutch is 3500 dollars... granted it will feather as smooth as a stock honda clutch and have about the same pedal pressure as a geo storm... but the price leaves little green for a tranny... a ford AOD can be built to handle that power, and you can order it with gm housing.. i have a full manual, transbrake AOD for my stack injected BBC 32 ford... the gm/aod hybrid with ford motorsport gearsets will handle full power 3/4 shifts at your powerlevel... (just dont buy it from ck performance)

with regards to the powershifts, you could mount an egr solenoid to a vacuum canister to actuate the BOV's as soon as you touched the clutch.. that would relieve some charge pressure and momentarily reduce the power to a synchro friendly level...

but i have one question... with 800 foot pounds of tourque... who needs a transmission?.. all you really need is a PG, and gear it for 200 mph in second and you can still 120 mph burnouts by mashing the throttle..

[JUSTANOVA]

but i have one question... with 800 foot pounds of tourque... who needs a transmission?.. all you really need is a PG, and gear it for 200 mph in second and you can still 120 mph burnouts by mashing the throttle..

this would be my theory, with that kind of power you could just re-gear for the disired speed and not give up too much on the bottom due to the huge power. might not even be a bad thing to tame it on the bottom end with the gears because I cant imagine you have a great deal of traction when taking off :drive: with the curent setup.

and re-gearing would probably be the cheapest too :thumbsup: and you get to keep your bulletproof t400

good luck with wich ever you decide.

[rocketman]

:D


Street... I sense a little sarcasm. I put up this post to see what is out there and what people have for experience on this. I have seen some guys running the stock t56 at over 1000 hp and 1000 ftlb of torque, that is why I asked what people think.

Right now, It looks like I either have to trade my $3300 T400 even up for a mildly built T56 and good clutch, or a built 4L80E setup. I have guys that will trade even up for them. Both do not seem to be the best for what I need, But the 4L80 would allow me to buy one of those awesome paddle shift wheels from that sarcastic guy on here, but then I cannot do the standing mile.. :_paranoid :D

I have talked to all the 1000 ftlb torque guys with the stock T56 (real life experience)and they say if you do not power shift it will be fine at my power level. To me that says alot. Sure anything can break, but being that these guys feel confident that I will be fine and they are the some of the fastest hardcore street/drag cars around, that says alot.

I drag raced a t-56 behind a 396 LT1 with no problem till the syrco's went out.I have seen plenty of power shifted T-56's just don't miss a shift

[nitrorocket]

My current top speed is only about 155 mph. Eveb the 4L80 would only get me to 185 mph.

I am just wondering if I should do the 6 speed thing and upgrade it as I have problems. Hmmm.

I have a 12 bolt with a 3 seires True trac and 3.08 gears. To my knowledge this is as low as I can go with a good posi. I have a bullet proof 12 bolt which I am sure you know what they cost. If I sold it I would lose my a** and have to buy a different rear id a 9" can even go that low with a good posi.

I sure wish GM had an auto with 4 forward driving gears. :(

How long would I have to be in 4th gear for a standing mile? My calculations ahow about 15 seconds after I shift to 4th. FLT told me the fluid would start to get boiling hot if held at WOT in 4th. With my 2 trans coolers with all the air flowing through them, I wonder if a 15 second blast in 4th would get that hot or not? Unfortunatly it is a very expensive trans to experiment on. :_paranoid

[Steve Chryssos]

And what rpm is 155 mph @ 1:1? What is your redline?

[tracy]

"only 185" sounds way to fast for this car. Do you have a pilot's license?



My current top speed is only about 155 mph. Eveb the 4L80 would only get me to 185 mph.

I am just wondering if I should do the 6 speed thing and upgrade it as I have problems. Hmmm.

I have a 12 bolt with a 3 seires True trac and 3.08 gears. To my knowledge this is as low as I can go with a good posi. I have a bullet proof 12 bolt which I am sure you know what they cost. If I sold it I would lose my a** and have to buy a different rear id a 9" can even go that low with a good posi.

I sure wish GM had an auto with 4 forward driving gears. :(

How long would I have to be in 4th gear for a standing mile? My calculations ahow about 15 seconds after I shift to 4th. FLT told me the fluid would start to get boiling hot if held at WOT in 4th. With my 2 trans coolers with all the air flowing through them, I wonder if a 15 second blast in 4th would get that hot or not? Unfortunatly it is a very expensive trans to experiment on. :_paranoid

[nitrorocket]

I have a pilot simulator for the computer, so I am covered! :D



I really don't know yet as I have not been down the track to see where my rpms are at what MPH exactly. Alot depends on converter slippage. I have been taking it to 7000 rpm because of the 3.42 gears, I hope to only have to spin to no more then 6500 with the new 3.08's.

[rocketman]

Why will a 4L80E not go 200,you have turbo's give it a little more boost to make for the hp loss in a 4L80E,

[deuce_454]

a 4l80e will give you one big advantage, and that is converter lockup, that should be worth some extra mph, also your transmission wont cook at a WOT run

and then ofcourse there si the possibility of addin a paddleshifter :thumbsup:

[nitrorocket]

The issue of WOT is in 4th gear with a 4l80. The 4th gear was meant to be a cruising gear and not handlw 800+ fltlb's of torque. That's what I hear anyway.

I cant go 200 mph because the gearing just isn't there. A 4l80 would get me to about 185 mph as the car sits.

[Steve Chryssos]

Correct. I seriously doubt that there is enough friction material in fourth gear to withstand the turbo power PLUS aero drag of your 71 Chevelle AND run that load for an extended period of time. My gear calculator has you running a theoretical 158@7000rpm in 1:1. A .75 overdrive will take you to a theoretical 232 mph. Also keep in mind that your driveshaft will be spinning at 10,000 rpm in overdrive.

But I hate racing on theoretical, frictionless racetracks. Ever try writing with a frictionless pencil? Or dancin' with a frictionless woman?

[quadfather]

Correct. I seriously doubt that there is enough friction material in fourth gear to withstand the turbo power PLUS aero drag of your 71 Chevelle AND run that load for an extended period of time. My gear calculator has you running a theoretical 158@7000rpm in 1:1. A .75 overdrive will take you to a theoretical 232 mph. Also keep in mind that your driveshaft will be spinning at 10,000 rpm in overdrive.

But I hate racing on theoretical, frictionless racetracks. Ever try writing with a frictionless pencil? Or dancin' with a frictionless woman?
is the problem with the 4l80e in the convertwer lock-up clutch, or is the o.d. (4th) gear clutch pack not up to the task?

[nitrorocket]

The problem is both are to small. unless I get a racing lockup and all billet overdrive components. Even then, it is sketchy.

10,000 rpm is a little fast, If it were shorter I should be o.k. though.

[rocketman]

The issue of WOT is in 4th gear with a 4l80. The 4th gear was meant to be a cruising gear and not handlw 800+ fltlb's of torque. That's what I hear anyway.

I cant go 200 mph because the gearing just isn't there. A 4l80 would get me to about 185 mph as the car sits.

It's going to take more than 1k hp to run 200 with the weight of your car,but thats been dicussed before,build it for abuse is the onlt way it will hold,If run a race tranny fuild that has a high temp rating it shouldn't boil at all.

i had just shy of 7k in my 4l80e,convertor,controller and all,the tranny was as bulletproof as you build right now

[nitrorocket]

Looking like the 4l80 is way out of the budget right now. I have been getting lots of trade offers for T56's, so that is what I might do.

My car has WAY more power then it needs to do 200 mph. In the standing mile, I may only get to 195 or something on pumpgas, but thats fine with me on 93 octane. That will make me happy.

If this brick (picture below)will do 188 with the supercharger belt flipped over 9 seconds from the finish, I feel confident I can do close to 200 also in the standing mile. I could always put race gas in and run way over 200 mph in the standing mile, But I would be happy just to try a 93 octane run at it!

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a50/nitrorocket/Stevescar.jpg

[427]

I have a 4L80E in my pick up truck and it holds wot in 4th for freeway blasts. The longest one involved a AMG benz and was under 20 seconds. My engine makes 900ft lbs and 800hp at full boost and the trans has been great. I have burned up a few converter clutches in short order locking at wot. I now don't lock anytime above 70% throttle just to be safe.

Kurt

[Steve Chryssos]

I have a 4L80E in my pick up truck and it holds wot in 4th for freeway blasts. The longest one involved a AMG benz and was under 20 seconds. My engine makes 900ft lbs and 800hp at full boost and the trans has been great. I have burned up a few converter clutches in short order locking at wot. I now don't lock anytime above 70% throttle just to be safe.

Kurt

Top speed?

[evilzee28]

Looking like the 4l80 is way out of the budget right now. I have been getting lots of trade offers for T56's, so that is what I might do.

My car has WAY more power then it needs to do 200 mph. In the standing mile, I may only get to 195 or something on pumpgas, but thats fine with me on 93 octane. That will make me happy.

If this brick (picture below)will do 188 with the supercharger belt flipped over 9 seconds from the finish, I feel confident I can do close to 200 also in the standing mile. I could always put race gas in and run way over 200 mph in the standing mile, But I would be happy just to try a 93 octane run at it!

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a50/nitrorocket/Stevescar.jpg


interesting picture of the Ford Granada. Who's car is it as I don't recognise it as being a 188mph car?. The car's British & is photographed at Santa Pod in Bedfordshire & is street registered. To be running 188mph it would be the quickest street legal car out there as the quickest street legal car is this:-

http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:pdEYNdT3Yz0J:www.bbc.co.uk/blackcountry/content/articles/2006/11/09/redvictor_feature.shtml+andy+frost+victor&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=firefox-a
hope that helps ;)

[68protouring454]

didn't you say you have not even gone 155 as of now, but you know it will???? kinda jumping alittle quick.
also 200 mph and budget should not be used in the same sentence.

[deuce_454]

btw, for top speed i wouldnt use an OD tranny, there is a small but significant powerloss in any transmission, and with slant cut gears it will be in the 5% range in 6th. gear.. with 1000 Hp churning through tour transmission, you are generating 50Hp or 36KW if heat in your tranny... not to mention loosing 50 Hp that could propell you to go faster.... if top speed is your only goal .. try and find a liberty 4 speed with straight gears from a nascar chop shop.. there are a bunch of them on ebay

i am not sure about the aerodynamics of a 70 chevelle, but with a small nascar wing to atleast keep the rear end from lifting (if you dont do bonneville style holes in the decklid) 200 mph should be reachable with yuour 800 rwHp.. (it will do 100 mph with 200 rwHp easy!)

but you are putting an enormous strain om your parts running WOT and big load for long periods... your turbos will be RED hot, perhaps ypu should run some water injection just to keep the combustion temperature within a reasonable range

i still say that a 4l80e with lockup should get you there.. and if you only break 190mph??... i have a feeling you would up the boost 5 or 10 lbs and try again?? correct?

[427]

My speedometer quits at 120 so I am not sure. I have run 5000 rpm in overdrive many times. It goes into overdrive just after the 1/4 mile mark (about117). My guess is over 130 for sure, possible over 140. I am sure it will run over 140 in a mile, so I don't take it to Maxton as it has no rollcage.

KurtTop speed?

[427]

Overdrive is very common in land speed cars although it would be nice if we did not need it. The car I drive has a Jerico 4 speed trans. The first two gears are normal, when you put the shifter into third you are one to one (trans fourth), when you put the shifter into fourth the trans is in what we would call third, it is geared .85-1 for the overdrive. Some cars run a one-one box with a overdrive on the back that shifts once or some use the over as a splitter.

Kurtbtw, for top speed i wouldnt use an OD tranny, there is a small but significant powerloss in any transmission, and with slant cut gears it will be in the 5% range in 6th. gear.. with 1000 Hp churning through tour transmission, you are generating 50Hp or 36KW if heat in your tranny... not to mention loosing 50 Hp that could propell you to go faster.... if top speed is your only goal .. try and find a liberty 4 speed with straight gears from a nascar chop shop.. there are a bunch of them on ebay

i am not sure about the aerodynamics of a 70 chevelle, but with a small nascar wing to atleast keep the rear end from lifting (if you dont do bonneville style holes in the decklid) 200 mph should be reachable with yuour 800 rwHp.. (it will do 100 mph with 200 rwHp easy!)

but you are putting an enormous strain om your parts running WOT and big load for long periods... your turbos will be RED hot, perhaps ypu should run some water injection just to keep the combustion temperature within a reasonable range

i still say that a 4l80e with lockup should get you there.. and if you only break 190mph??... i have a feeling you would up the boost 5 or 10 lbs and try again?? correct?

[pdq67]

Very interesting reading and completely out of my league!!

But don't the big M/B cars run 1 to 1 and get the equivalent of OD by using really high rearend gears for the same overall affect except no problems with driveshaft over-rpm'img?????

And that's why they do it...............

pdq67

[nitrorocket]

Well, luckily I will not be overspeeding my driveshaft. It has a critical speed the way it sits of about 10,000 rpm and if shortened for an overdrive, would go to over 12,000 rpm+.(3.5" Aluminum MMC).

That Granada is from Ireland and has a top speed of more then 188 mph. That's just what he did in the standing mile from a dead stop to a 1 mile marker. If he did not run into belt issues I am sure he would have been real close to 200 mph. Pretty good for a 3600 lb barn door either way! :)

Boy, sounds like the 4l80 might handle the power, but would need 5k invested to last. I would be real worried about a stock trans and how it would last for the time being. A T56 setup will not cost a thing if I trade my current setup even up for one, but I have to rebuild it once a year with real heavy beatings. I will also take much more time for a swap. I already have a pedal set, but will need to do some tunnel work and get the clutch setup installed and working correctly. Plus, my wife can't drive stick, so that is another bad factor.

I guess I will keep looking into both options for now and try to make a choice sooner or later.

Thanks for all the input.