3 Competitours, which one and why?

[tyoneal]

Hello:

Obviously there are some fantastic companies listed on this site. That being said, with regards to Chassis/Suspension Suppliers vs. overall best performance product.

Assumption: Car 1969 Camaro (Reason - Used very often for evaluation by most manufacturers)

Handeling Charactoristics to evaluate or remark about:

a) Street Drivability
b) Drag Racing
c) Road Racing
d) Bang for the Buck

Which of the complete product lines do you think/know, can/will out perform the other competitors.

The competitors are:

1) DSE Makes a Complete Suspension Package (Front Subframe with Triangulated 4 link

2) Schwartz Makes a complete bolt on kit for the 69 Camaro

3) Lateral Dynamics also makes a suspension system for the Camaro

If there is another competitor that should be added please feel free to speak up.

If you were going to start a Camaro Project, who would you choose and why?

(I know this is a very difficult discussion, but it is one I don't think has been addressed from this perspective)

I have personally spoken with all three, and I come to the conclusion I either need three Camaro projects, or a three sided coin to flip. I don't have the knowledge or experiance to make an educated aurgument one way or another, so that is why I have posted it here.

Thanks in advance.

regards,

tyoneal

[XcYZ]

The DSE Quadra-link isn't triangulated, it's a paralled 4 bar with a panhard bar.

There isn't a perfect solution for the street, that's why this subject always turns negative. Besides 4 factors you listed, there are many more including packaging, cost, time to install, tuneability, availability of replacement parts, parts longevity, turn around time on manufacturing, etc. How about parts warranty and tech support? (covering everything from installation to setup to tuning questions)

Tires play a huge role in the overall performance, as do the shock and spring rates. How many have actually scaled their car and made spring rate choices accordingly? The correct part selection is every bit as important as having correct geomety and dynamics.

There will always be trade offs. What makes a great functioning track car generally makes for a poor riding street car. What makes for good tunability makes for poor packaging in a street car. There's no way that a blanket statement can be made that covers all suspension options for what is the best. There are just too many factors, and those factors weigh different with every individual that's building a car. You need to weigh all factors then decide accordingly.

I think we should have people list what factors are important to them when making a suspension upgrade.


Of course, all of this is just my opinion.

[Payton King]

Yea, what Scott said! He pretty much covered it in one post.

In 99% of the cases most people are building street cars. As shown at RTH, the top systems are perform pretty close to each other at that one event. I cannot speak for the ride or drive portion of that equation. Pick the one that gives you that warm , fuzzy feeling and don;t look back.

Unless you are willing to travel to take a test drive in each of the system before you purchase, you should have enough info to make a good decision.

[Garage Dog 65]

Excellent responce Scott. You're kinda like the guy behind the curtain in the Wizard of OZ. You're scary smart sir. :D

[Musclerodz]

You can add 21st Century Street Machines with a front and rear clip, Art Morrison with their new sub or max-g chassis, ATS and their new package for the front sub modifications, SC&C, Air Ride, need i go on......

DSE's combination of products are well documented and proven for driveability and realitive comfort

I don't know anything about the Schwartz chassis or have heard of any feedback on one, but that is not saying much

Lateral Dynamics is the only 3 link out there I know of being marketed and will put performance before ride quality. I am not saying it isn't comfortable, I have not rode in one yet, my statement is based on how I have heard Mark speak about his products. Mark knows his stuff as well

21st Century makes a nice product and have not heard any complaints for those using one

Art Morrison, One of the biggest in the business when it comes to chassis', don't know of any complaints here either

ATS has their new coil over set up, AFX spindles, excellent for the budget minded guy

SC&C has AFX spindles from ATS, coupled with adjustable upper arms for another buget minded setup, and Marcus knows his stuff as well.

Air Ride has proven their Airbar setup will keep up with most any non professional driver out there and lay down very respectable numbers on the skid pad and is well documented through their Track Challenges.

I would break down into what you think your goals are. Bling, performance, ride, budget? That should narrow it some, but in the end, Go with who you will feel will work best for you.

Mike

[James OLC]

About this time last year I found myself asking the exact same questions - well almost the exact same. This is what I can tell you from my experience:

First of all - my criteria (and please keep in mind that these were what I valued and what I was looking for - they may not be the same for you or anyone else).

1. I wanted a no compromise suspension set up with respect to performance focusing on road racing and open highway competition. I have built many first gen Camaros and have always had to compromise one place or the other and always wound up wondering how much better the car would have performed if I had not given in due to dollars or streetability considerations.

2. I needed a suspension set up that would be functional in multiple disciplines. While my focus was on road racing and open highway events like the Silver State Challenge, the One Lap of America race includes drag racing, road course racing, skid pads, and anything else that Mr. Yates dreams up (including dirt track racing a couple of years ago). Not to mention 5,000 miles of highways between events.

3. I did not want to built this car as a full frame car. Yes, this is contrary to #1. Right or wrong, I wanted to build this as a Camaro - not a race car with a Camaro shell. That being said, the next one will be the other way around.

Armed with those criteria I scoured every message board that I could find, called every contact that I knew and exchanged a ton of emails and phone calls with manufactures across the country. I did make an effort to visit as many manufactures as I could - business took me to SC, I spent an extra day and went to NC - and I looked at what others were doing. (Thanks to Scott and this board there is a ton of experience to tap into if you take the time and initiative).

At that point I felt like you do the day you get back from Sema - completely overloaded with information and ideas. And it took some time, and thought, and consideration of the pro's and con's of everyones products - and nearly all of them have both pro's and con's worth considering.

In the end I chose:

Front - American Touring Specialties. Despite the fact that I was convinced that I wanted (or needed) an aftermarket front subframe, I ultimately came to the conclusion that a modified stock subframe offered the best solution given the alternatives. Geometry won this one.

Rear - Lateral Dynamics. There is simply no better road racing suspension than a 3-link and LD has put together a package for F-bodies that is well engineered, outstandingly fabricated, and simply works.

That being said, Scott's comments earlier are 100% true - particularly with respect to the so called "secondary components" like shock, springs, and tires. I would hazzard to say that these choices are as important, if not more important, than the actual suspension systems. That was one of the other factors that I took into consideration with ATS and Lateral Dynamics - they not only understood this, they preached it.

Anyway, that is my experience and my opinon only. I can go into more detail with respect to the technical aspects of my choices if you're interested but since this post is probably longer than all of my previous posts combined it's time to stop for now.

[Bill Howell]

I agree with most of the above comments, however, if you choose a different car, say an A-body, the picture clears a bit. I am going thru a similiar game right now with my next project, a 70 chevelle and have made the following choice. I will use the AirRide system, but with a twist. I will have the ATS spindles just because I have been so impressed with them on my malibu. For an A-body, I feel the Air Ride system is the best choice and will be flexible enough to do drag racing and road racing good with some practice and trial and error with settings. I will know more soon. :thumbsup:

[tyoneal]

Since clarification was requested, I will add this.

Assume all the same Tires and wheels for each.

Is there any true distinsion between all the choices other than the engeineering?

Or Could it be said the 3-link is the closest thing to an all out track rear end suspension.

At the other end of the scale would be the Air Ride Tech, which would allow the choice of good handeling for the street and the option of a comfortable ride,

With the rest of them falling somewhere in between?

[ProdigyCustoms]

Just keep in mind that the Air Ride car was only .08 behind the DSE car at Run Through the Hills Camaro shootout!

[Steve Chryssos]

......I have personally spoken with all three, and I come to the conclusion I either need three Camaro projects, or a three sided coin to flip.....

Correct. For a multi-purpose street car, you probably need a three sided coin. Better yet, roll the dice: Six sides times two--there's a lot of good choices.

If it helps, fly out to Long Island and I'll take you for a drive in a variety of cars with very different suspension setups. With regards to actual roadholding for a street car, it's a coin toss. They all work well because--in reality--the cars are not being pushed very hard 90% of the time.

Swing the pendulum to one extreme (race) or the other (comfort/show) and I'll give you a differet answer. But for a "does everything well" street car, the biggest difference that I have experienced comes from comparing front steer "rack" cars to rear steer "box" cars. And the link rear suspensions ride way nicer than leaf springs.

If you have narrowed it down to three choices that all spin your wheels, spend time weighing the secondary considerations that Scott outlined such as installation difficulty, exhaust packaging, price, etc.

If I could wave a magic wand (mine's broken), I'd order me up a Art Morrison Max-G 3 Link full frame kit. But that's just me. I already have a nicely sorted aftermarket front clip. I want to take things to a whole other level with a channeled body thru frame exhaust and all. I suddenly have the urge to cut the floor and chassis our of a perfectly good, fully functional car.

It's delicious!
http://images20.fotki.com/v367/photos/4/453080/4377806/_MG_3233-vi.jpg

[XcYZ]

I'm with you on that, Steve. Th full frame is the future of all out pro-touring/g-machine builds.

[Silver69Camaro]

Thanks for the compliment, Steve (and Scott).

That picture shows the "street" type 3-Link...I've got a geometry setup to take care of guys like us who really want to turn corners, and uses all 4130 spherical joints.

Trust me when I say that chassis is stiff.

[Steve Chryssos]

He said stiff :beavis:

[ProdigyCustoms]

I'm with you on that, Steve. Th full frame is the future of all out pro-touring/g-machine builds.

I just love it everytime you say that. Only once in my life have I been ahead of my time, LOL! Your going to make me do a full chassis in Lisas car, and I swore I wouldn't. We do have this new pipe bendy thingy though!

[Jr]

I am in the same postion as Tyoneal. Can a fully equipped airride car drive around the streets and track with a similar stance as these cars?

[Steve Chryssos]

Both of those cars have DSE Quadra-Links and upgraded front clips. Mark's car has the added benefits of ATS spindles PLUS Mark's GM engineering and setup voodoo.

Edit: Woops! Looks like you added a third car. Not sure what suspension is under Jonny's car--ca;t speak for it.

The answer--much to the dismay of many--is: Yes, uh-huh, mm-hmm, affirmative. Yup. So sorry. Saw it with my own eyes. Lots of people saw it. We were all surprised. And the A-body stuff looks to work even better than the F-body stuff.

[Jr]

Edit: Woops! Looks like you added a third car. Not sure what suspension is under Jonny's car--ca;t speak for it.

Steve,
Jonny's car has a dse quad-link and wd front sub. I love how these cars sit, but the adjustability of the air system would be nice. I have been doing research on these cars for a long time. Decisions...

The answer--much to the dismay of many--is: Yes, uh-huh, mm-hmm, affirmative. Yup. So sorry. Saw it with my own eyes. Lots of people saw it. We were all surprised. And the A-body stuff looks to work even better than the F-body stuff.

Did you take your daily meds yet? j/k

The answer that I have come up with: Only in a perfect world will I get the "perfect stance"

[tyoneal]

Thanks for the compliment, Steve (and Scott).

That picture shows the "street" type 3-Link...I've got a geometry setup to take care of guys like us who really want to turn corners, and uses all 4130 spherical joints.

Trust me when I say that chassis is stiff.

What would go beyond that and were can someone see one?

tyoneal

[tyoneal]

Correct. For a multi-purpose street car, you probably need a three sided coin. Better yet, roll the dice: Six sides times two--there's a lot of good choices.

If it helps, fly out to Long Island and I'll take you for a drive in a variety of cars with very different suspension setups. With regards to actual roadholding for a street car, it's a coin toss. They all work well because--in reality--the cars are not being pushed very hard 90% of the time.

Swing the pendulum to one extreme (race) or the other (comfort/show) and I'll give you a differet answer. But for a "does everything well" street car, the biggest difference that I have experienced comes from comparing front steer "rack" cars to rear steer "box" cars. And the link rear suspensions ride way nicer than leaf springs.

If you have narrowed it down to three choices that all spin your wheels, spend time weighing the secondary considerations that Scott outlined such as installation difficulty, exhaust packaging, price, etc.

If I could wave a magic wand (mine's broken), I'd order me up a Art Morrison Max-G 3 Link full frame kit. But that's just me. I already have a nicely sorted aftermarket front clip. I want to take things to a whole other level with a channeled body thru frame exhaust and all. I suddenly have the urge to cut the floor and chassis our of a perfectly good, fully functional car.

It's delicious!
http://images20.fotki.com/v367/photos/4/453080/4377806/_MG_3233-vi.jpg

Is there such a thing as a,"Art Morrison Max-G 3 Link full frame kit"? I saw 4 link but NO 3 link. Is thi a new product??

tyoneal

[71Nova]

Yes it is brand new with the 3 link. I don't think is is all the way released yet, but should be soon. It looks like the ultimate setup to me, followed by lateral d 3 link, then DSE. Just my opinion. I also like that the lat d setup's uper bar mounts to a new square tube crossmember instead of to the floor under the rear seat. I have not heard of anyone having a problem with the DSE mount though. I do not know enough about the unique performance/foose setup to comment on it, but it might be good as well. Lat d seems to be a bit pricy compared to DSE. Lateral D includes the housing, but dse includes the coilovers for less than the lateral d without coilovers. Also with the DSE setup you can easely use your back seat.

[Steve Chryssos]

What would go beyond that and were can someone see one?

tyoneal

Beyond? Maybe I'm not being clear. All three of the suspension choices on your short list will more than likely exceed the performance requirements of your application. I say "more than likely" because I'm not exactly sure what your requirements are. Do you have a car already? Is your project in process? Assuming that I'm right, there's not much need for beyond. There should be a fading echo here. BEYOND.....Beyond......beyond....beyo...

Say I'm right: Any of these choices will meet or exceed your performance goals. Then it makes sense to pay some attention to secondary features such as how the Lateral Dynamics crossmembers and pre-welded rear end housing will greatly simplify your installation. They could have easily tossed a puzzle of tubing and tabs in a box and cut the price. Instead, the company went the extra mile to make sure that you don't unnecessarily waste any brain cells during the installation process. And brain cells are hard to come by or replace. So the crossmember design is worth it's weight in gold. Which, in turn, bolsters the product's "bang for the buck" quotient.

Having purchased--quite literally--one of the world's first aftermarket subframes 8 years ago and then spending about one million dollars "fixing" it, I assure you that these secondary considerations are important. They are way more important that "1.00g vs .89g.

[tyoneal]

Beyond? Maybe I'm not being clear. All three of the suspension choices on your short list will more than likely exceed the performance requirements of your application. I say "more than likely" because I'm not exactly sure what your requirements are. Do you have a car already? Is your project in process? Assuming that I'm right, there's not much need for beyond. There should be a fading echo here. BEYOND.....Beyond......beyond....beyo...

Say I'm right: Any of these choices will meet or exceed your performance goals. Then it makes sense to pay some attention to secondary features such as how the Lateral Dynamics crossmembers and pre-welded rear end housing will greatly simplify your installation. They could have easily tossed a puzzle of tubing and tabs in a box and cut the price. Instead, the company went the extra mile to make sure that you don't unnecessarily waste any brain cells during the installation process. And brain cells are hard to come by or replace. So the crossmember design is worth it's weight in gold. Which, in turn, bolsters the product's "bang for the buck" quotient.

Having purchased--quite literally--one of the world's first aftermarket subframes 8 years ago and then spending about one million dollars "fixing" it, I assure you that these secondary considerations are important. They are way more important that "1.00g vs .89g.

Steve:

Your comments are well taken and I really appreciate everyones response regarding this.

Based on the answers, I know I'm in the right place for good information. I plan ti build only one more 69 Camaro, and I would like to do it as a pefect car for me, my use and driving skill. I do intend on spending a fair amount of money really learning to drive effectively so all these great items can be appreciated.

It's just that at this point it is so important what you put under everything as a foundation and i really want to start on the right foot.

I had hired someone to build this part of my project, but I'm not sure this will happen. I'm trying to take advantage of this delay to better inform myself, thus hopefully building a better car.

God I loved my last 69 and I just sold my harley. I'm ready to start this project soon hopefully ding it right the first hand. (I have several other car I want to go through after this one is finished.

My '33 Ford 5 Window should be up and going in the next few months, then the 69 Camaro, Then redue a pristine '65 Riviera that would make a perfect Stock example of it's type. (Blk on Blk, with a 425 Nailhead) Its really fun to take out but it needs some TLC which will come when I get my, "Track", '69 Camaro rolling.

I really want to put a lot of seat time in it.

Anymore thoughts are always welcome and appreciated.

Thanks again,

tyoneal

[tyoneal]

Yes it is brand new with the 3 link. I don't think is is all the way released yet, but should be soon. It looks like the ultimate setup to me, followed by lateral d 3 link, then DSE. Just my opinion. I also like that the lat d setup's uper bar mounts to a new square tube crossmember instead of to the floor under the rear seat. I have not heard of anyone having a problem with the DSE mount though. I do not know enough about the unique performance/foose setup to comment on it, but it might be good as well. Lat d seems to be a bit pricy compared to DSE. Lateral D includes the housing, but dse includes the coilovers for less than the lateral d without coilovers. Also with the DSE setup you can easely use your back seat.

I hope their product will be a friendly installation into a Camaro with having to do a lot f extra metal work.

Does anyone know about this??

Thanks,

Ty

[Steve Chryssos]

Good morning Ty,
Let's have some fun. Please elaborate on "Track". What type of tracks? Are there specific venues and or events in mind? Given that you have other toys, you might be able to make your Camaro more focused. I, likewise, have a comfy, bone stock 1965 Riviera. Black on Black on Black. The Riv allowed me to do a more aggressive build on my Camaro.

If you don't mind, Please guestimate at the percentages of application if possible as follows:
Street/Touring: %
Drag: %
RoadRace/Auto-X: %

Would you be open to publicly answering a more thorough survey so that others might benefit from your decision process. In addition to the above questions. Questions would be like this: Are you afraid of paint chips? Will you be performing your own fabrication? ...That kind of stuff.

[CraigMorrison]

Is there such a thing as a,"Art Morrison Max-G 3 Link full frame kit"? I saw 4 link but NO 3 link. Is thi a new product??

tyoneal

Ty- This is a new part. The pic is from our 2007 catalog shoot, that I e-mailed to Steve.

[tyoneal]

Good morning Ty,

Let's have some fun. Please elaborate on "Track". What type of tracks? Are there specific venues and or events in mind? Given that you have other toys, you might be able to make your Camaro more focused. I, likewise, have a comfy, bone stock 1965 Riviera. Black on Black on Black. The Riv allowed me to do a more aggressive build on my Camaro.

If you don't mind, Please guestimate at the percentages of application if possible as follows: (See Below)

Would you be open to publicly answering a more thorough survey so that others might benefit from your decision process? Absolutely :thumbsup:

In addition to the above questions. Questions would be like this: Are you afraid of paint chips? Will you be performing your own fabrication? ...That kind of stuff. I'm Open! :thumbsup:

If you don't mind, Please guestimate at the percentages of application if possible as follows:

Street/Touring %: up to 50% or (What I can get my wife to put up with, or the purpose of the trip) I would like to make the Power Tour one of these days. Living in Texas I won't have a Car without a/c!! I know when first acquired or running, I'll have my Butt in it every chance I can. That said, I think it would depend how I feel or what I feel like driving. I DO WANT TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THE POWER TOUR WITH DEPENDABILITY! I've read so much about it, I think it would be a blast. I'm not keen on doing a lot of street racing because of the risk to everyone and myself. So street racing if done at all would be up to the speed limit or slightly past and that's it, just to watch my occuments grin. Most people I know have never really been in a fast car.

Drag: % 5-10% (Mostly to reminice about my High School Days and for fun or dialing in the car) I usually go with my wife to just watch as she is a big fan. (She loves how the top fuel make the stadium seats rumble, and that's ALL I'm going to say about that. Plus the drivers are really nice to meet and speak with) Our nearest good Drag Strip is South of Dallas (in Ennis, TX) about 30-40 miles, and I live 20 miles North of Dallas, and probably the Powder Tour Drag Stuff?

RoadRace/Auto-X: % as much as possible, realistically probably 20-40% depending on distance to the course. Also, I have a car trailor so if I had the front end dialed in for the track, I wouldn't have to drive 200 miles round trip on expensive tires for the hell of it, plus I'm positive I will have some people will want to come with me from time to time. Plus if I break the car or God Forbid have a mishap, I can get home. So % of time on the track I'm not exactly how to answer that because actual milage on the car won't necessarily include driving to and from it.

Training %- Not sure but throw that in with track time.

I'm about 40 miles due east of the Texas Motor Speedway and I think they give lessons and have a inside closed course for us Amatuers. There is a Strong SCCA Group in the DFW area as well as a strong Local Camaro club.

Will you be performing your own fabrication? At this point I can't answer that question accurately because I just had my second shoulder replacement, and I don't know what I'm going to get back as far as strength, motion etc. For discussion sake let's assume very little. Also, at this point I'm still waiting to see if a Manual 6 speed is in my future, or a Schrifter with a 6L80e.

Paint Chips? - Well they always suck, but you going to get them if your going to drive the darn thing, and if I'm not going to Drive it, I'll just go to a car show and look at everyone else's. A buddy of mine put something on his car called I think, an invisible Bra. He swears it works and he drives the hell out of his car. It's one of those new Chevy Trucks that doesn't really haul anything and has a LS-2 in it . He put on a Supercharger and a 20k paint job. He put one of these Bra type things that go on top of the paint and his car looks really good still.

When they had that meet this last year up in Detroit he drove to it and there is a small picture of his car in HOTROD magazine. His name is Mike Fox (No Relation) and his car looks like it ran through and American Flag and kept on going. (There are tears and rips and stuff in the rippling flag) It's pretty impressive. I told him now to be proper since the flag is torn and worn, he needs to burn it. He didn't smile, but thats another story.

Anyway,

Does this help?

I certainly don't mind answering these questions publicly, I really appreciate having the advice of you all on this board.

I await you comments.............

Ty O'Neal

[Steve Chryssos]

Street/Touring %: up to 50%. Power Tour with a/c!!
Drag Racing: 5-10% Our nearest good Drag Strip is South of Dallas (in Ennis, TX) about 30-40 miles, and I live 20 miles North of Dallas.
RoadRace/Auto-X: probably 20-40% Has a trailer. About 40 miles due east of the Texas Motor Speedway and I think they give lessons and have a inside closed course for us Amatuers. There is a Strong SCCA Group in the DFW area as well as a strong Local Camaro club.
Training: Not sure but throw that in with track time.
Performing Fabrication? Let's assume very little.
Paint Chip Tolerance: - High

Does this help? I certainly don't mind answering these questions publicly, I really appreciate having the advice of you all on this board.
I await you comments.............
Ty O'Neal


Thanks. That already helps alot. But I'll keep coming up with questions. For now, know that the number one hardest part of building a hot rod is outsourcing labor--usually fabrication and paint. If you will not be doing your own fabrication, you need to find someone you can trust and be prepared to carry the expense. A good fabricator can easily cost $2K to $4K per week. And bad fabricators should not be allowed near your car regardless of price.

Unless you have deep pockets and--more importantly--a fabricator that you trust absolutely, ease of installation and cost of installation should be considered top priorities. Furthermore, radical modifications might not be necessary for what sounds like a street car. You responses to the racing questions sound more like good intentions rather than specific plans. Had you stated, for example, that "you are an SCCA member and you already auto-X the wife's Jetta on a regular basis", I would have a different impression. Your response applies to most of us. Without driver training and experience, I assure you that all of these suspension systems will exceed YOUR capablilities.

Mind you, none of this means that you shouldn't score the latest hardcore parts. It just means that the decision making process should be less intense. Choose parts because you want them--not because you are trying to achieve a specific performance goal. Don't sweat minute performance differences. What you CAN'T do, is choose parts and systems that might prevent or delay project completion.

Let's come up with more questions to try and zero in on suspension systems for your car. These are all questions that I either asked myself or should have asked.

-Would you sacrifice ultimate grip in the name of ride quality?
-Would you push your car to the limit if that meant high risk of an off track experience?
-Do you already have a trustworthy fabricator secured?
-What is his hourly rate?
-What information is your trust based on?
-Where will you be storing and working on your car?
-How important is interior creature comforts other than AC?
-How concerned are you with vehicle ride height? (Do you need your car to be the lowest around, or do you prefer reasonable ground clearance)
-How many hot rod projects have you completed?
-How many hot rod projects have you been actively involved with? (i.e. wrenching on friends' cars, helping them choose parts, driving friends' cars)

[tyoneal]

Steve:


On Jan 2, 2007, at 1:12 PM, Ty O'Neal wrote:

Steve:

Let me take a stab at these, and BTW thanks for getting back quickly.

Unless you have deep pockets and--more importantly--a fabricator that you trust absolutely, ease of installation and cost of installation should be considered top priorities.
-My plan to cover this is to:
a) Purchase a car or roller that has been done correctly, or
b) Buy a car and have one of the vendors do the metal work and suspension installation, or
c) Look for some ones, "Mule", that has been sorted out then work on it from there

These are my favorites so far because, I think I'm in touch now with a professional group of experienced folks. I intend for this to be a 18 to 24 month build. (Probably more) So doing it right is more important than doing it quickly.

I will require metal fabrication on:
a) Mini-Tubs
b) Roll Cage
c) Subframe Connectors if a full frame is not used
d) Anything else that needs replacement due to rust or damage
e) Potential Suspension work depending on the type or style used
f) Exhaust

Furthermore, radical modifications might not be necessary for what sounds like a street car. Your responses to the racing questions sound more like good intentions rather than specific plans.

I have owned my own business for about twenty years now and it has taken basically ALL my extra time. (Commercial Real Estate) At this point it is self sustaining and I am semi-retired. Due to a car wreck two years ago, I have scaled back most of these responsibilities to heal and re evaluate my life. (Encouraged by my Doctor and wife also)

The Second reason I am not a member now is, Instead of SCCA membership, I have been on the:

Downtown Planning and Zoning overlay Counsil
The City Millinium Plan Counsil
President of the Downtown Merchants Association (5 years)
Board Member of the Plano, Texas Symphony (3 Years)
Advisory Committee to the Plano, Symphony
Inner circle member of the Dallas Opera
Host for a weekly contact lunchen for North Texas Mensa (15 Years)
Member of the Hertatige Association of Frisco
I've had to regularly attend City Counsil Meetings
I'm two classes, my comps, and my disertation away from a Ph.d in Communications Technology
North Texas Harley Association
Member IDPA and president of local chapter. (Went to National twice and placed in the top five in my class once) IDPA= Action Pistol Shooting. Normally shot matches in a 5 state area each year
Member of USPSA= another Action pistol shooting group
Plus have tried to squeeze in some time for my wife. (Not necessarily in this order) ;-)

Hopefully, this will give you an idea what I have been up to.

THE #1 REASON NO SCCA YET. If I got involved I'd want a trick car, lots of tires, lessons and so on and I wouldn't have had the money to go back into my business for the last 20 years. For me Auto Racing, Car Collecting and generally just screwing around with Cars is expensive, and I've put that part of my life on hold because of this.

Had you stated, for example, that "you are an SCCA member and you already auto-X the wife's Jetta on a regular basis", I would have a different impression. Your response applies to most of us. Without driver training and experience, I assure you that all of these suspension systems will exceed YOUR capablilities.

That I have no doubt, however, if I'm going to spend $10k to $20k on a suspension, I'd like to be as informed as possible.

Mind you, none of this means that you shouldn't score the latest hardcore parts. It just means that the decision making process should be less intense.

It's difficult for me to NOT be intense. I really enjoy learning especially on a subject I have loved since I was born.

Choose parts because you want them--not because you are trying to achieve a specific performance goal. Don't sweat minute performance differences. What you CAN'T do, is choose parts and systems that might prevent or delay project completion.

If I think I want two left front rotors on my brake system, I'd like to avoid some obvious mistakes that have to be redone. A while back the last 69 Camaro I really built was in 1980. Straight line speed was ok, cornering sucked. That has spured many of the questions.

Let's come up with more questions to try and zero in on suspension systems for your car. These are all questions that I either asked myself or should have asked.

-Would you sacrifice ultimate grip in the name of ride quality? No, a combination of both would be desired, however a killer street handeling Car, and a good handeling Track car, if possible, would be a good goal.

-Would you push your car to the limit if that meant high risk of an off track experience? Not intentionally, heck I'm just getting over a car wreck now. How is this, "As fast as Possible, without taking undue risk". If someone passes me, it's not the end of the world. The Idea is to have, "Fun".

-Do you already have a trustworthy fabricator secured? Not as yet, I know someone personally, but he is already finishing my '33 Ford 5 Window and has several projects behind it. It will have a built 429 with a C6 and a 9 inch with 4:11 gears.

-What is his hourly rate? $60/hr

-What information is your trust based on? He has built over 50 car (Frame up) Held World Speed Record at Bonniville, in "D" Street Roadster, and was Mobil Oil Corporations Head Honcho for All the Motorsports they sponcered. He was their main man understanding the current and future racing technology so they could formulate lubricants for those applications.

Now that being said, he has projects up to his teeth now, so I was going to start Talking to the people who sponser this site, with ideas, products and cost.


-Where will you be storing and working on your car? I have a storage building I use to house farm equipment and various other items.

-How important is interior creature comforts other than AC? XM Radio and good seats primarily

-How concerned are you with vehicle ride height? Adjustability would be very nice. Real high, real low, No interest!

-How many hot rod projects have you completed? Two alone. 67 Camaro and a 69 Camaro

-How many hot rod projects have you been actively involved with? No Idea, Dozens. I was part of the crew at Bonniville in addition to wrenching on Cars, Trucks Motorcycles etc.

How is this information? Does it help?

Thanks again for your time.

Ty O'Neal

[Steve Chryssos]

Most benchracing sessions swirl around two polarized views: Street or race. Based on your responses, let me try to sum things up in one important statement that very few people consider.

If you race your car, you will most likely race it in street trim.

That's a powerful statement. Most folks are like: "....Well I'm gonna track my car, so I need the double throw-down parts and set up." Wrong. More than likely, you will want to see how the car performs on the track in street trim. After a few attempts, you will probably realize that the car performs very well, so why mess with it. End of story: Street car on the track.

Does that sound right? Does that sound like you? If 50% of your driving will be street/touring, then there is no sense in building a car on slicks with 3 degrees of static camber and a bunch of toe out. File that one under "duh". At the track, you will probably take advantage of simple adjustments such as turns of the shock knobs or maybe link rod changes. If you get fancy, you might swap a splined sway bar. You will more than likely not bother to swap wheels & tires or coil springs. As you have described it, Never forget that your project is a street car! Staying focused on that concept will help you complete your project. You will most likely never explore the limits of your top three suspension choices. And if you do--you might crash!

If you have access to a top notch fabricator, then the only limiting factor to your selection is budget and time. In my neck of the woods, your extensive list of fabrication tasks could easily consume $30K-$40K. So again, any of those three suspension choices will work for you.. Just get estimates for installing all three variations.

Visit my website and call the phone number listed there if you would like to discuss the matter further. And the offer is still open: Fly to NY and take a drive in a variety of cars. The test drives will reinforce my statements.

[tyoneal]

About this time last year I found myself asking the exact same questions - well almost the exact same. This is what I can tell you from my experience:

First of all - my criteria (and please keep in mind that these were what I valued and what I was looking for - they may not be the same for you or anyone else).

1. I wanted a no compromise suspension set up with respect to performance focusing on road racing and open highway competition. I have built many first gen Camaros and have always had to compromise one place or the other and always wound up wondering how much better the car would have performed if I had not given in due to dollars or streetability considerations.

2. I needed a suspension set up that would be functional in multiple disciplines. While my focus was on road racing and open highway events like the Silver State Challenge, the One Lap of America race includes drag racing, road course racing, skid pads, and anything else that Mr. Yates dreams up (including dirt track racing a couple of years ago). Not to mention 5,000 miles of highways between events.

3. I did not want to built this car as a full frame car. Yes, this is contrary to #1. Right or wrong, I wanted to build this as a Camaro - not a race car with a Camaro shell. That being said, the next one will be the other way around.

Armed with those criteria I scoured every message board that I could find, called every contact that I knew and exchanged a ton of emails and phone calls with manufactures across the country. I did make an effort to visit as many manufactures as I could - business took me to SC, I spent an extra day and went to NC - and I looked at what others were doing. (Thanks to Scott and this board there is a ton of experience to tap into if you take the time and initiative).

At that point I felt like you do the day you get back from Sema - completely overloaded with information and ideas. And it took some time, and thought, and consideration of the pro's and con's of everyones products - and nearly all of them have both pro's and con's worth considering.

In the end I chose:

Front - American Touring Specialties. Despite the fact that I was convinced that I wanted (or needed) an aftermarket front subframe, I ultimately came to the conclusion that a modified stock subframe offered the best solution given the alternatives. Geometry won this one.

Rear - Lateral Dynamics. There is simply no better road racing suspension than a 3-link and LD has put together a package for F-bodies that is well engineered, outstandingly fabricated, and simply works.

That being said, Scott's comments earlier are 100% true - particularly with respect to the so called "secondary components" like shock, springs, and tires. I would hazzard to say that these choices are as important, if not more important, than the actual suspension systems. That was one of the other factors that I took into consideration with ATS and Lateral Dynamics - they not only understood this, they preached it.

Anyway, that is my experience and my opinon only. I can go into more detail with respect to the technical aspects of my choices if you're interested but since this post is probably longer than all of my previous posts combined it's time to stop for now.

James:

How have your choices paned out so far?

What type of shocks and springs did you decide to use, and what settings (Where applicable) have worked the best for Street or Track applications.

What wheels, tires and brakes did you go with?

Any hindsight you can share on your total experience?

Thanks,

tyoneal

[trapin]

That Max-G chassis looks incredible. Why piece it together when you could buy everything (minus brakes and differential) in one shot? Can't get any stiffer than a full frame. Jeff Schwartz is doing a full frame chassis for F-bodies too. He brought pictures to our dinner at Autorama. Looks damn good, and surprisingly affordable.

[Ummgawa]

I think we should have people list what factors are important to them when making a suspension upgrade.



First and Foremost, twice as much money as you currently have.



I'm Serious.