Art Morrison Max G Chassis under a 1st Gen Camaro

[Nutsy]

Just got this months PHR and read the AD from Art Morrison.

"Simply drop your car's body over the frame and build a new floorboard. Its a project that do-it-yourself home builders can do! Call now on details on giving your Camaro, Challenger, Chevelle, Dart, Demon, GTO, Nova (or ???) contemporary chassis technology performance."

Ok. Time for some discussion. Questions:

1. Realistically how much work is this?

2. Is this a better all around solution (performance wise) for a 700hp+ Camaro than an aftermarket front clip (WD, DSE, AM, etc.), frame connectors, and a well designed rear suspension?

3. How much would this be in comparison to a completely built DSE or WD front clip and custom rear setup such as a 3 link or IRS?

4. Has anybody actually looked into this at all? If so, please post your findings.

5. If you were planning a ground up build on your car, what would you do?

Talk amoungst yourselves!! :willy:

[rwhite692]

It will be interesting to see it done... Don't know if it will perform better than the current "methods" ie, SFCs, upgraded front sub, etc...

[XcYZ]

I keep looking at that, too. I think I'll make a phone call today and see what they have to say about it. I'm curious what the front track width is among other details.

[Nutsy]

Scott while you are on the phone, see if you can get some $$$ numbers too! I am eager to hear more details.

[XcYZ]

There's some general info on it on pages 17 and 18 of their 2005 catalog, but I'm still going to call them and see what they have to say about it. I have a few questions, and it does sound interesting.

[rwhite692]

Sure looks interesting...


https://home.comcast.net/~chevyrob/maxg.bmp

[RussMS]

Scott while you are on the phone, see if you can get some $$$ numbers too! I am eager to hear more details.

Gotta agree with Nutsy. $$$ numbers would be sweet. Thanks for calling Scott.

Russ
Camaro Builder Wannabe

[XcYZ]

I spoke with them this morning and got some details, and I see Craig Morrison joined our forum, too. The front suspension has two options, a C5 setup and a tubular control option, each has a different track width.

Nutsy, shoot me an e-mail.

[almcbri]

I like that

For about a year I have been doing a little drawing trying to come up with a complete chassis. My pics actually look pretty similar. I have a 67 RS that I plan to build a complete chassis for. I would love to get dimensions on that thing. What are the holes for? wiring, or exhaust?

[nvawgn]

my plans are to put that chassis underneath a 56 belair, 19's all around and yada, yada, yada.........

[CraigMorrison]

You caught me Scott! :D I figured I would sign up so I can answer any questions from time to time. This chassis is a new part for us, one of the first cars to use this type of chassis is a 70 Challenger being built by Bobby Alloway that will debut at Coumbus. Here is a pic.http://images9.fotki.com/v169/photos/4/453080/1755002/charger-vi.jpg
If I can answer any questions, please let me know!

[XcYZ]

Welcome, Craig. :thumbsup: Thanks for taking the time to stop by and checking out Lateral-g.

The chassis is definitely something that interests me, and by the looks of it, several others as well. From what Don told me, my Baer brakes won't work with the spindles that you're using with the tubular control arms. Would I have any other options?

[CraigMorrison]

If Baer makes a kit that can bolt up to a MustangII spindle, they sure should work on our chassis. Or are you talking about a Baer kit for a stock Camaro spindle? Also, when I say MustangII PLEASE!!! don't think the geometery is stock MustangII!!! It is dramatically different from what was used under this car. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the welcome. I am on a few other sites, and it is always fun to talk with fellow gearheads.

[61Bubbletop]

Welcome Craig...Looks like a killer product! :thumbsup:

[jonny51]

Hmmmm,I like that :_paranoid

[Nutsy]

First off, welcome Craig to the forum. Thanks for joining to help us out here.

Here is a response that i got to my original post on PT.com (http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5925).

I talked with Don from the Art Morrison booth at a recent trade show about the MaxG chassis. Since on one else has said anything yet and I do this kind of thing for a living I`ll take a quick stab at your questions. ;)
1) Let`s not kid anyone,it`s a huge amount of work.
2) Better is a tricky word. The front suspension and R&P look to have pretty good geometry. The rear suspension they recoment for ProTouring use is their triangulated 4 link. That has it`s geometry problems but they`ve done some work to correct them by lowering the roll center and reducing torsional binding to at least some extent. I`d rather see it with a road race style 3 link with watts linkage or panhard but for a tri4link it looks decent. The one BIG advantage would be chassis rigidity and overall strength. Not only would you have a full box section frame but the method of installation welds the unibody/floor right to the frame throughout the car.
3) Just an educated guess but probably more than a custom front clip and 3 link,less than custom front and *good* IRS. That is if you`re paying someone to do it.
4) Just looking at pics and talking to Don.
5) I`d build my own chassis and suspension from scratch. But then as I said,I do this stuff for a living. YYMV Marcus SC&C

Craig, can you elaborate on the solid axle rear suspension setup that you guys are running with this frame?
Why did you choose it over other solutions?
How does this setup perform in overall handling and straight line performance in a car with 700+ hp?
How do you feel this setup compares to other solutions like the "road race style 3 link with watts linkage or panhard" setup?
Is there any other options other than IRS to go with that would help/improve some of the "geometry problems" that were mentioned in this response?
What is your reccomended setup and why, for a street car putting 700+ hp to the ground, IRS or Solid Rear with your 4 link?
What advantages or disadvantages would your full frame setup give us first gen camaro owners over going with a custom 3-link rear, sub frame connectors, and an aftermarket front subframe?
Roughly speaking I am looking at spending 10K for a fully loaded front clip, subframe connectors, and custom rear suspension. How does that compare to going to your full frame setup?

My personal goals (along with everyone else in the world :P ) are a good all around compromise of Street driving, 1/4 mile racing, and high speed road track racing in that order.

I am not a suspension expert, in fact i am quite a newbie to this stuff. I just like to do my homework and research as much as possible.

[Ummgawa]

Craig

I am seriously interested in the frame, any prices you can share with us? How about if 3-4 of us wanted one at the same time?

By the way welcome to the site, you are welcome here, this place is different than any other site I have been to, thats why I stay here. By the way, Alloway's builds are so cool. A good eye can pick one of his builds froma mile away, especially his 32's.

[CraigMorrison]

Nutsy- I haven't forgotten your questions, just working on the answers! :D

[DCreations]

That's a sweet frame. How much does it weight?

[ryans67deuce]

This frame, in bare form - without front & rear suspension components, looks like what JP used on IIMuch. If I recall correctly, he basically had to build the floorpan and firewall from scratch.

Craig, has this changed or can the stock floorpans and firewalls work with this chassis?? Any possibilities that the rear susepension can be made a parrallel 4-bar or more-so a 3-link for ultimate performance?

Ryan

[CraigMorrison]

http://www.artmorrison.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=GT55testing (Testing of the GT55)

Here is a link to the testing videos and pictures of the GT55 being tested. The suspension was a triangulated 4-bar with our own design of IFS. The Tri 4-bar was chosen because of its compact design, low profile frame rail and the fact that since it doesn't need a track locator there is extra room for the exhaust system. On the GT55 we averaged 0.94G (0.92 one way, 0.96 the other) with a 245 F/ 275R BFG G-Force TA KD combo. The GT55 is still the fastest car that Primedia has tested on the slalom course......

I was talking with Katz yesterday about 3-link designs, and the frame rail kick up and supports for the upper link would more than likely require the builder to scrap the back seat and utilize a roll cage to tie into that upper mount for extra support. The fact that we are asking people to re-work the floor narrows the market down a bit, but to tell people that they need to run a roll bar/ cage and eliminate the rear seat narrows that down even further.

I guess it boils down to what the car is actually going to be used for. If you are looking to build a trans-am car that is occasionally driven on the street then the full cage, full frame, custom rear suspension is for you. If you are looking for your car to perform to the equivalent of a C5 Z06, Porche 911, Ferrari 575 then our setup might be what you want.

I will extend the invitation that once we get the GT55 back (its out on the show circuit now but will be back in April) to come up to Fife, WA for a shop tour and a test ride in the car so you can see how a tri 4-bar car rides and handles.

With the question of weight, the next chassis that comes off of the table, I will make sure that we scale it!

The chassis is similar to what we build for JP, but we have changed the front-end rail design around as well as the exhaust holes. They (exhaust holes) were designed for 3" exhaust, and the rear tube is .250" to increase chassis ridgity.

Thanks guys
I hope this helps out! :D
Watch the videos!

[CraigMorrison]

I'll try the link again....
http://www.artmorrison.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=GT55testing

[rockdogz]

Wow, that's incredible! If this was posted on April 1, I might not have believed it...

:hail:

[BillyBobL71]

Craig,

Thanks for the reply. Will a BBC sit in the stock location? It looks like it may have to be moved back some with the R&P.

Bill

[will69camaro]

Does anyone have an idea on price? Also this is going to be available for a 69 camaro correct? I watched the vids and i need to say that was AMAZING. That little 55 looks bad ass hitting the track!

William

[HotRod68Camaro]

So how well does the tringulated 4 bar work in the 1/4 mile? I am more of a drag racer (bout 1-2 times a month) but my car is also a daily driver.

Thanks

Kyle

[CraigMorrison]

Bill- I'll speak with Art to see where a BBC sits in there. It won't be until Monday since Art's out of the office.

William- The price for one of these chassis with tri-4 bar rear and C5 front is $12473. That is a fully welded chassis with sway bars, shocks (single adj Strange), springs, RE housing, Strange 3rd member with your gear choice & posi unit, 31 spline Strange axles, power rack (20:1 or 15:1 ratios), all the C5 components direct from Chevrolet (not used pieces), Corvette C5 brakes up front & Wilwood brakes in the rear.

With C5 front suspension, you will be limited to Vette backspacing on the wheels and will need to move the motor back about 5" to clear R&P, which aren't really bad things since you will have a very small scrub radius and killer weight balance :D

The price for this chassis with tri-4 bar and our IFS up front is $1056.00 that includes all of the above but with our IFS up front and brakes are our 11" disc kit in front and the SVO disc kit in the rear. Other brake upgrades are available. With the IFS you don't have the dramatic engine setback due to its rack location and have a larger variety of wheels to choose from.

Please keep in mind that these prices are for "standard" packages. There are things that you can delete to reduce the price and there are upgrades as well.

Hope this helps!

[Ummgawa]

See Below !!!. :D

[Ummgawa]

"The price for this chassis with tri-4 bar and our IFS up front is $1056.00 that includes all of the above but with our IFS up front and brakes are our 11" disc kit in front and the SVO disc kit in the rear. Other brake upgrades are available. With the IFS you don't have the dramatic engine setback due to its rack location and have a larger variety of wheels to choose from."

Sign me up!! I am all the way in at that price :thumbsup:


By the way , if we group purchase, can we get a better deal? :unibrow:

[parsonsj]

Craig, welcome.

As Ryan indicated, this frame is very similar to what Art custom-designed for II Much. Back when I bought mine, neither the C5 front or tri-4 bar rear suspensions were available. If they were, I probably would never have swapped them out for my custom front and 3 link rear.

Having a 2x4x.120 steel tube all the way around the perimeter of the car really makes lots of other fabrication a lot easier. I love working with the guys at AME, and highly recommend them. I always deal with Kevin Kosir, the Nova expert.

That being said, I agree that the X-member in the center of the car really reduces head room. My frame doesn't have that, just a simple "inrigger" I fabbed for the tranny cross-member and seat frame.

jp

[DCreations]

Is there a reason why they use .120 tubbing VS. .083 tubbing?

[MarkM66]

"The price for this chassis with tri-4 bar and our IFS up front is $1056.00 that includes all of the above but with our IFS up front and brakes are our 11" disc kit in front and the SVO disc kit in the rear. Other brake upgrades are available. With the IFS you don't have the dramatic engine setback due to its rack location and have a larger variety of wheels to choose from."

Sign me up!! I am all the way in at that price :thumbsup:


By the way , if we group purchase, can we get a better deal? :unibrow:

I think there might be a number missing before the decimal point, ;) .

[CraigMorrison]

:eek: Um, make that price with an extra decimal point. What, 1056 isn't a good enough price for you guys?

[will69camaro]

:eek: Um, make that price with an extra decimal point. What, 1056 isn't a good enough price for you guys?
$$01056.00?? Still seems like a good price to me!!!! I'll take two!

William

P.S. Kidding :D

[customcam]

Just wondering not all of us building/wanting to build a PT Muscle car know the ins & outs of Chassis,suspension,Future needed Fabrication etc like more experienced car builders do. Can we put this in more easier terms!
What body(cars) can be placed on the chassis?
Whats the difference if you just replace the front end with a C5 and the rear end with new diff and shocks and mini tubs?
Whats the difference in wheel height and length?
Is it easier to buy the chassis and find a body rather than find a whole new project and cost saving issues?
Sorry guys if some of the questions are silly due to my inexperience. :willy:
What other benefits are there?
Thanks guys. :hail:

[CraigMorrison]

Customcam- At AME, we custom build front clips, full frames and rear clips. We currently only have two "bolt-on" frames and those are for the 55-57 Chevy and for the 53-62 Vette. These frames are the only ones that have all the body, bumper, core support and engine and trans mounts allready welded on them. The 55-57 frame is a quick swap, and we changed out the frames on our GT55 project car in about 6 hours. No welding required!

This new Max-G frame is one of our custom frames designed for performance handling. We can do many different styles of chassis and we have a few different front suspensions that we use, and we have a few different rear suspensions that we use. Most of our custom chassis are made right to the customer's specs and help the customer pick out the best fit suspension for their own driving style and intended use for the vehicle whether it be drag racing, cruising, hi-perf driving, etc.

The way that this particular chassis works is that we build it to fit the width of the pinch weld on the rocker panels. So you give us the year of the car that you are building, the desired ride hight that you want, your tire and wheel combo (or we can make suggestions) and some pinch weld dimensions. Because this chassis is made to your specs there are quite a few different cars that it will work for!

While we do use the C5 on different applications, the R&P does sit quite high. Depending on the car, ride height and the motor used, there will be 5" or more of engine setback so the motor/balancer doesn't hit the R&P.

I would definitely suggest having the car body that you are going to use in your hands before starting a project like this, because we will need some measurements from you.

If you are not that experienced with fab work, this might not be the best fit for your project. The last thing we would want is to have you get in over your head and have your pet project die a lingering death. If this is the case, we can do a front or rear clip, go with bolt on parts or just enjoy the car as-is.

Hope this helps!
Craig

[customcam]

It really does thanks Craig!!
"I wish i lived in the US to build my car" ;o(
Craig will you have pics/tech info regarding the corvette kits with body and prices? on your website? I have seen a side on pic of your 55 and its stance is amazingly low but theres nothing hanging under the vehicle exhaust etc ;) awsome car to say the least!!!
Will you have first gen chassis and body kits also?
Thanks again for your patience! im Learning something everyday here at Lateral _G! Thanks to all! :thumbsup: