Aluminum 427 Small Block Gen I

[Fastbowtie]

Ok, I have a question for those guys out there using a 427 SBC GEN I Block Iron or Aluminum. I am thinking about assembling an Aluminum 427 using either a Dart or World Block. This engine will be used as a daily driver and be taken on long trips, hopefully Power Tour. Can you guys give me some pros and cons to these blocks? I spoke with both tech departments and they both had good points to there products. The Dart seems to be the better block, however the Motownlite seems to be closer to a stock 400, which in the end could prove to be a better deal. The list kind of went like this.

Sorry Scott for the crude table.

.................................Dart............. ..........................Motownlite

Different Deck Heights....Yes.................................... ...No
Stock Oil Pan set up.......No (wide spread rail)................Yes....(Stock)
BBC Cam Core...............Yes............................ ...........No.....(Stock)
Stock Oil Filter..............No............................ ...........Yes.....(Stock)
Square Block................Yes.......................... .............No
Intake Height Stock.......No.................................... ....Yes....(Stock)
Stock Height Distributor..No................................... .....Yes....(Stock)
Special Head Studs........Yes.................................. .....No
Special Custom Cam.......Yes..................................... ..No Small Base Cir
Special Timing Gear........Yes................................... ....No
Weight.........................95 lbs...................................100 lbs
Billet Steel Splayed Mains.Yes......................................Yes
Material:.......................355-T6 aluminum....................357-T6 aluminum
Sleeve________________.250_______________________. 250" @ 4.155 bore
Raised Cam....................Yes........................ ..............No
Max Cubic Inch...............455 (4.185 x4.125)................434 (4.155 x 4.00)
Special Ribbing................No......................... ..............Yes

The thing that amazes me about these specs neither company thought about changing the lifter bores over to the new style (tall style) so you can use the new design lifters that are cheaper then the Retro Style lifters.

Please let me know your opinions and experiences. Thanks Guys! :D

[camcojb]

every machinist and engine builder I've met prefers the Dart blocks over the World stuff. Nicer machining, less casting flash, better quality, and on and on.


Jody

[Fastbowtie]

every machinist and engine builder I've met prefers the Dart blocks over the World stuff. Nicer machining, less casting flash, better quality, and on and on.


Jody

Yea Jody that's what I've heard too, but it seems like it needs everything. Oil pan, special cam, special head bolts, special push rods ect...

[rocketman]

Of those 2 blocks a would recommend a Dart,my personal favorite is Donovan.

Keep your tolerance tight so when it warms up to operating temp it's not to loose and rattle to death.

Has long as it's a stock spec block,everything will bolt on it,usaully when getting into the tall deck blocks is when the cam tunnel gets raised and the spread the pan rail out.

Donovan makes(used to sure to be honest) block that will except all the stock hardware

[Fastbowtie]

Of those 2 blocks a would recommend a Dart,my personal favorite is Donovan.

Keep your tolerance tight so when it warms up to operating temp it's not to loose and rattle to death.

Has long as it's a stock spec block,everything will bolt on it,usaully when getting into the tall deck blocks is when the cam tunnel gets raised and the spread the pan rail out.

Donovan makes(used to sure to be honest) block that will except all the stock hardware

Hows the pricing of the Donovans?

[rocketman]

Hows the pricing of the Donovans?

About the same 3k give or take.I haven't priced a standard block in awhile.

[jonny51]

Have you considerd Brodix?

[Fastbowtie]

Have you considerd Brodix?
You know I haven't. I need to look at them too. I seem to forget there are more then just 2 companys making thoses things.

[4OfaKind]

Does it have to be Gen I?
World makes an aluminum LS series block called the Warhawk that accepts a 4.125" bore and costs less than the Gen I blocks. About $2K - $2500

Sorry, I confused the World aluminum block w/ GMPP's iron block. The World Block is $4K. Forget I was here. :_paranoid


Mal

[Fastbowtie]

The more I read on the net about aluminum the less I like it. I still want a SBC 427 though.

[nitrorocket]

You can buy a used LS1 aluminum block for $200. :D

Have you thought about LS1-2 motors for your "street" car?? Same power, 1/4 the cost. Just an option??

[4OfaKind]

You can buy a used LS1 aluminum block for $200. :D

Have you thought about LS1-2 motors for your "street" car?? Same power, 1/4 the cost. Just an option??

Where?! :willy:
I just bought an iron LS1 block for $75. I would have jumped all over the aluminum one for $200. Lowest I have seen is for $500 and that was for a 5.3. :(


Mal

[rocketman]

You know I haven't. I need to look at them too. I seem to forget there are more then just 2 companys making thoses things.


The best place are

Donovan
Brodix
Dart


I haven't used a Brodix block yet,put I use alot of there heads,and I have never seen any junk.

[nitrorocket]

I have seen boat loads of bare ls1 bare blocks sell for the $200 range in the last couple years. This one below had much more with it. You can buy complete turn key motors with a trans for less then a Dart block, that's not bad for a block good to well beyond 1000 hp!! :D


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LS1-Chevy-350-Engine-Block-Rods-Pistons-Crank-Oil-Pump_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33613QQihZ007QQite mZ170058102523QQrdZ1

[rocketman]

Does it have to be Gen I?
World makes an aluminum LS series block called the Warhawk that accepts a 4.125" bore and costs less than the Gen I blocks. About $2K - $2500

Sorry, I confused the World aluminum block w/ GMPP's iron block. The World Block is $4K. Forget I was here. :_paranoid


Mal


If World products didn't make that Warlock I think it would be great,but I have seen to much WP junk.


I,m waiting on the new GMPP LSX steel block it will go to 511 inches,

[rocketman]

The more I read on the net about aluminum the less I like it. I still want a SBC 427 though.

Really an aluminum block on the street isn't needed,It's cool to say it's all aluminum,but a steel block will be useless.

If you were doing a BBC an aluminum block on the street would be worth to drop a 150 pds.

If you go the LSX route,a LS2 is the way to go, the casting are better than the LS1 block

[nitrorocket]

An aluminum block can also be repaired, that is one big advantage!!

[rocketman]

An aluminum block can also be repaired, that is one big advantage!!


Yeah,maybe,many can't be saved,but if it's a street only car it shouldn't be blown up that bad.

LS1 blocks are bad about be junk when they blow up hard.i have only seen one or 2 be fixed when I sent them off

6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of another.

[Fastbowtie]

This type of talk doesn't flatter the aluminum block at all.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2146&highlight

[clill]

The Thrasher has a GM iron rocket block 427.

[jonny51]

Here is a Brodix........
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1102940/IMG_0826.JPG

[Fastbowtie]

That is VERY nice. I like it. Is everything standard on that as far as Distributor height intake height oil pan rail ect..? :D

[JUSTANOVA]

Here is a Brodix........
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1102940/IMG_0826.JPG


that is beeyooteefull :hail:

[jonny51]

That is VERY nice. I like it. Is everything standard on that as far as Distributor height intake height oil pan rail ect..? :D

Yes,including stock deck height but it's not a 427.

[Fastbowtie]

Yes,including stock deck height but it's not a 427.


So what size is it? A 434 or bigger?

[jonny51]

So what size is it? A 434 or bigger?

No it's 373,destroked 400.It is a twin turbo motor so no real need for big cubes.

[nitrorocket]

You can easily make a 427" LS2 motor with an aluminum block. That will handle all the power you can throw at it. On top of that, an LS2 head with a little porting flows better then out of the box 18 degree heads...plus it's fuel injected!! :D

[rocketman]

You can easily make a 427" LS2 motor with an aluminum block. That will handle all the power you can throw at it. On top of that, an LS2 head with a little porting flows better then out of the box 18 degree heads...plus it's fuel injected!! :D


Do what LS2 out flow 18's,Ls2's won't flow 350 cfm ported,I have set of Brodix 18's that out of the box flow 350 cfm,no port work out of the box.

[nitrorocket]

The Brodix 18's do not flow 350 out of the box, suppose it depends on whos flow bench. All would have to be done on the same bench.
My Dart 18's flowed 330/260 @ .700 lift out of the box. My TEA ported LS1 heads flow 317/255 at only .600 lift. That is as much or more then my $4000 Dart 18 degree heads, with a factory $200 set of heads and $1200 worthe of valves and porting!


LS6 heads with porting 346/270 @ only .600 lift on a cheapy factory head!!


YOU CANNOT BEAT THAT WITH A STICK! :unibrow: :willy:

[rocketman]

The Brodix 18's do not flow 350 out of the box, suppose it depends on whos flow bench. All would have to be done on the same bench.
My Dart 18's flowed 330/260 @ .700 lift out of the box. My TEA ported LS1 heads flow 317/255 at only .600 lift. That is as much or more then my $4000 Dart 18 degree heads, with a factory $200 set of heads and $1200 worthe of valves and porting!


LS6 heads with porting 346/270 @ only .600 lift on a cheapy factory head!!


YOU CANNOT BEAT THAT WITH A STICK! :unibrow: :willy:


Flowed them today at 700 lift they were 350/270.

[nitrorocket]

Flowed them today at 700 lift they were 350/270.


So you gotta admit that the ls1 heads flow big time at only .600 lift for a head with a total investment of less then $1500 bucks!!

That's what I LOVE about LS1's! :yes:

[rocketman]

So you gotta admit that the ls1 heads flow big time at only .600 lift for a head with a total investment of less then $1500 bucks!!

That's what I LOVE about LS1's! :yes:


They flow good,not bad for a street head. I have seen some killer LSX heads that flow low 400's.I did a friends Ls6 heads acouple years ago and they flowed 390 at 650.

I was just pointing out that while it is possilble to out flow out the box heads,it's going to take quit abit of port work on stock heads,Brodix heads IMO are the best for out of the box performance.and are the closet to advertised flow #'s I have seen.

[OTE Design & Fabrication]

Here's a Brodix block 427 we're doing for a 3rd gen Camaro. Standard everything on the block except the rocket block style oil pan. Off the shelf parts inside except for reduced base circle cam. Brodix gives you alot of options.

[Fastbowtie]

Here's a Brodix block 427 we're doing for a 3rd gen Camaro. Standard everything on the block except the rocket block style oil pan. Off the shelf parts inside except for reduced base circle cam. Brodix gives you alot of options.

What's their pricing on a block?

[nitrorocket]

Tom, why a reduced base circle, don't they raise the cam like a rocket block?? What is the deck height?

[OTE Design & Fabrication]

What's their pricing on a block?
I think it was in the $4500 range. I'm not at the shop so I don't have the exact price.

[OTE Design & Fabrication]

Tom, why a reduced base circle, don't they raise the cam like a rocket block?? What is the deck height?
We ordered standard cam location and standard deck to work with parts he already had.

[OTE Design & Fabrication]

I think it was in the $4500 range. I'm not at the shop so I don't have the exact price.
I just checked online and it lists at $4399.

[jonny51]

I just checked online and it lists at $4399.

I paid $3995 for mine.

[Fastbowtie]

I paid $3995 for mine.
That sounds like a good price. I'm still torn though on whether to do an aluminum or not though. Everyone is saying that there can be a horsepower loss for the first couple of builds because of the sleeves moving around inside the block. Jonny does the car handle a ton better or do you not notice it?

[Steve Chryssos]

.........This engine will be used as a daily driver and be taken on long trips, hopefully Power Tour....

Gen 1 aluminum blocks move around a lot--like a boneless chicken. That means inferior ring seal that could cause minor smoking and cylinder wall washing. Not a problem for race cars but annoying on a true street car such as the application you described. Sux to be sitting in traffic with 15lbs oil pressure at idle because the engine is hot and clearances have opened up. It's not the end of the world, just be prepared for some embarrassing blue smoke and more frequent rebuilds. That's why GM never offered OE aluminum blocks in vettes until the LS stuff arrived. It took a total redesign to achieve a warranty ready aluminum block.

If you absolutely gotta have an aluminum block, go LSx or pick the block that has the most reinforcing ribs and the thickest bulkheads. Then build the motor tight as Rocket stated--That will cost you some power, but you'll be happier in the long run.

And there's no sense price shopping a Dart block since you'll spend extra for the one off parts. Just bite the bullet and hand your wallet to your engine builder.

[Fastbowtie]

And there's no sense price shopping a Dart block since you'll spend extra for the one off parts. Just bite the bullet and hand your wallet to your engine builder.[/QUOTE]

I am the engine builder. This will be my 11th. So far the 406's have been the fastest.

[rocketman]

I ran a alumunim big block 632 on the street and raced for 5 years,I freshened it yearly with now problems,ran 8's in the 1/4 and drive to the track.Then ran a 710 on the street for about 4 months(sold the car)with no problems.

I built it tight gave up a little race preformance,but never had a street problem.An aluminum block move's around alittle,but there's several tricks to using.always let it warm up alittle bit,if you dry sump it,you need to pre oil it before everytime you start it.

They are alittle more pain,but they live well.

[jonny51]

That sounds like a good price. I'm still torn though on whether to do an aluminum or not though. Everyone is saying that there can be a horsepower loss for the first couple of builds because of the sleeves moving around inside the block. Jonny does the car handle a ton better or do you not notice it?

I have not driven the car with that motor yet.I am taking it on the power tour and im not to worried about it.

[Steve Chryssos]

And there's no sense price shopping a Dart block since you'll spend extra for the one off parts. Just bite the bullet and hand your wallet to your engine builder.

I am the engine builder. This will be my 11th. So far the 406's have been the fastest.[/QUOTE]

Well that helps. So what blocks did you use for the other 10 engines?

[clill]

The Mule has a aluminum smallblock and has had no problems with low oil pressure, smoking etc that I have ever noticed and it has over 10,000 miles on it. Red Witch has a aluminum big block with over 20,000 miles with no problems either.

[Fastbowtie]

I am the engine builder. This will be my 11th. So far the 406's have been the fastest.

Well that helps. So what blocks did you use for the other 10 engines?[/QUOTE]

They were all stock blocks. 5 350's Chevys, 1 460 Ford, 2 406's Chevy's, 1 Pontiac 350, and a Pontiac 1.8L.

[rocketman]

Well that helps. So what blocks did you use for the other 10 engines?

They were all stock blocks. 5 350's Chevys, 1 460 Ford, 2 406's Chevy's, 1 Pontiac 350, and a Pontiac 1.8L.[/QUOTE]


Take your time,doing an aluminum block is differnet than doing a steel block,rememeber tight clearance's.do alot a research on prepping the block.you don't want to mess up a 4k block

[Fastbowtie]

They were all stock blocks. 5 350's Chevys, 1 460 Ford, 2 406's Chevy's, 1 Pontiac 350, and a Pontiac 1.8L.


Take your time,doing an aluminum block is differnet than doing a steel block,rememeber tight clearance's.do alot a research on prepping the block.you don't want to mess up a 4k block[/QUOTE]


Thanks Rocketman I will. I am still kind of thinking about just doing a iron block.

[pdq67]

Look up RickW on our car sites..

Clill, you wanna adopt me??

He, He!!

pdq67

[tyoneal]

If World products didn't make that Warlock I think it would be great,but I have seen to much WP junk.


I,m waiting on the new GMPP LSX steel block it will go to 511 inches,

I'm with you, it sure would give you a lot of options.

[pdq67]

Didn't know that the new LSX Steel or whatever it is GM block could bore to 4.5" b/c if it is still on the same bore centers as the old SB I like, the bore centers should be 4.40"!!

How are they getting it to bore to 4.5" or have they changed the bore centers and are now creating an LSX BB engine that will eventually make the Mark and Gen. BB's obsolete??

pdq67

[rocketman]

There's two versions,a tall deck and short deck.the lsx engine are totally differnet from the gen 1 stuff

[tyoneal]

If World products didn't make that Warlock I think it would be great,but I have seen to much WP junk.


I,m waiting on the new GMPP LSX steel block it will go to 511 inches,

Rocketman:

Could you elaborate on the WP, "Junk"? I have heard this from time to time, but I would think that with a two year warrentee they would be out of business if they were putting out, "Junk".

Please be specific, and anyone else who has some good first hand or real reliable info, please jump in.

I also was looking at the Warlock, but all these comments really throw up a red flag.

Who are they selling their engines to? With a bad reputation I would think they wouldn't be selling many.

I'm not questioning the validity of your comments as much as I would like to understand the specifics enough to make a good educated decision or suggestion.

Thanks,

tyoneal

[rocketman]

Well they dont sell them like they used to,and they dont insure them a seprate insureance company does,the have block shift problem and the quality is crap,sub standard material,google world products complaints

[tyoneal]

Rocketman:

I did as you recommended.

google, "world products complaints"

I got nothing.

By this are you saying (indirectly) that the products are good?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=world+products+complaints&btnG=Google+Search

or

Did I screw up the search?

Thanks,

tyoneal

[PhilM]

Dart. Hands down. My real choice would be a bowtie. Someday i will actually finish it...

[V8bug]

In my mind when you say streetable (reliable) and aluminium block there is only one solution, GM genIII or genIV (ls1/ls2) period.

If you are actual insane enough to shell out $3000+ for a chunk of metal (more $ than I have in my entire drivetrain) I would wait for the GM LSX block coming out this march, it only cost $2500. The specs on this block are scary, 511 ci possibility, 40lbs boost no problem, easily make 1500hp all day. Thats what I would buy.

[CraigMorrison]

In regards to the Warhawk, it's an amazing piece of work, same with the warhawk heads. Some of the nicest looking parts I have seen up close. I am not talking about the 1st sample either. The new parts from a different foundry that WP is now using.

[68sixspeed]

well, I'll chime in with a bit of first hand knowledge, I put a 2500+ miles on mine since I got it in July (world block'd aluminum 427) and have had no issues. We beat it vigorously on the dyno on 2 occasions. I haven't had ring seal issues or anything out of the ordinary. It was nice that the off the shelf pan, timing covers, etc all fit it too, and since it wasn't a tall deck it still fit under an SS hood even with a super-victor intake (barely.) Headers still fit too, although they did sit a bit higher than on my old motor. -Dan

[ProdigyCustoms]

We have been selcted by World Products to build one of the first production blocks. We have one of the first Warhawks on the way. We will be giving it a full anal probe and measure. Stay tuned.

[XTRMEASURES]

We have been selcted by World Products to build one of the first production blocks. We have one of the first Warhawks on the way. We will be giving it a full anal probe and measure. Stay tuned.

with that said, keep us posted:unibrow: