DSE quadra link vs. leaf springs

[syenkoc]

Hello all,

I have a question about Detroit Speed's quadra link system. I'm building a '69 Camaro resto-rod, and I'm debating whether to install DSE's quadra link rear end vs. modern leaf springs. My main concern with this car is drivability - I'm don't really care about originality. (The car is a plain-jane 307, so I don't feel too guilty about hacking it apart and installing modern parts.)

I've heard conflicting reports about just how good DSE's rear end is. A couple of people told me that it significantly increases the unsprung weight and actually degrades the handling characteristics. I saw a '70 Chevelle with some really funky composite leaf springs; the owner told me they weigh about 80% less than steel leaf springs and the car handles like a dream (he also had a modern front suspension, but I'm doing that anyway).

Like I said, the major concern in drivability. I'm going to install a fairly high horsepower engine (my uncle is helping me build a 427 aluminum small block, and it should turn 500 hp when it's done). Any one have any advice/recommendations?

Cheers,
John.

[awr68]

Well the only thing I've ever heard is that the Quadra Link is far better than even DSE's leafs. It's more adjustable and easier to tune. And I'm pretty sure it doesn't add any weight...after all it's only a few brackets and 5 links!

I have a AME parallel 4-bar and other than the 2x4 x-member that I added (DSE doesn't use one) the suspension itself, including the coilovers, is far lighter than the leaf sprung suspension.

If your budget and skills allow I would HIGHLY recommend going with the QL!

What front suspension do you have planned? You might consider DSE so the front is matched to the rear suspension.

I think the Chevelle you are talking about had VBP (http://www.vbandp.com/) on it...Mark Stielow had them on one of the red cars.

[rwhite692]

The DSE Qlink is better than leafs. But, What's the budget and how much work do you want to do to your car (meaning- how long do you want to see your car up on jackstands?)...Do you intend to mini-tub the car?

There is a vast difference in the amount of work between the two options you are considering...

[chicane]

Well the only thing I've ever heard is that the Quadra Link is far better than even DSE's leafs.

Well... that isnt saying too much. There is nothing special about DSE's leafsprings to begin with, afterall they are mere and simple lowering springs. A cutom built leaf can make a world of difference and it can even keep up with all of the new fangeled link systems if executed correctly. The correct leaf design and build with a REAL shock will give a link system a run for its money any day. Its really just coming down to finding the guy who knows about leafs, who has a builder that can follow a spring print to the T. If you are interested, let me know... I think I can source a guy for you. :_paranoid

The composite leaf stuff is really the FNG on the block concerning performance applications. But, CarlC (a member here) has done this conversion with a bunch of really well thought-out modifications and tricks to make them even better. This would also be something to do your homework on, as it is a proven set-up... (Carl flogs his 68 on open track days) so there is something to back it up. :yes:

In a call for the subject of weight, if you use a 9" the weight difference between leaf or link, is just about a wash. Unless you go with an alloy third member, alloy pinion support, a lightened gearset, gun drilled axles and something that isnt a boat anchor in weight like the "Fab9" housing. :faint:

BUT, if you consider a link type rear end, I believe and can pretty much assure you that the Lateral Dynamics 3-link is better mechanically and I believe it is lighter than the DSE Quadralink. The WATTS and link mounts are sprung weight, so that cuts down a little of the sprung/unsprung issue. Not to mention its really the only competitor to a properly executed leaf set-up... or maybe even the new bag systems that are coming out from ART.

Whatever you do, take your time, do your homework and do it right.... dont just settle for some band-aid suspension because all the "cool kids" are doing it.

[syenkoc]

Cool, thanks for the replies so far!

I've been reading up on the Lateral dynamics 3-link, and it sounds pretty sweet. I have plenty of time to figure the suspension thing out, luckily, since I have no deadlines, and I'm constantly running short on cash (although hopefully my Christmas bonus will change that!).

Based on what I've read tonight, I think the 3-link is the way to go. I don't want to run an air system, although I admit I'm against them mostly because I see them on rice racers way too much. The composite leafs are also a possibility, but, as you said, you need the right guy to work with them... and I'm not that guy, nor is my uncle (my partner in crime on this project). (He's more of a dragster guy than a G-machine guy.) I like the 3-link thing because my uncle and I can definitely install it with our current skill sets.

Cheers.

[awr68]

Well... that isnt saying too much. There is nothing special about DSE's leafsprings to begin with, afterall they are mere and simple lowering springs.

That may be true, but I have heard that people have the best/consistant results with them, unlike some others. And I was trying to do a direct comparison within one company...ya know the QL vs. DSE lowering springs.

Whatever you do, take your time, do your homework and do it right.... dont just settle for some band-aid suspension because all the "cool kids" are doing it.

Well I agree the 3-link is the way to go if you have the funds, which most guys don't. I feel DSE's QL is affordable and better than leafs...sorry if you don't agree and consider it a band-aid....remember we all can have our own opinions.

I get the feeling, but I don't know for sure, that this guy isn't loaded and is looking for the best suspension that he can afford, and my first coment was that if funds are there, the QL is a great design and will work great. I didn't even consider LD's 3-link since he didn't mention it so I figure it cost too much...clearly I was wrong.

He's a big boy and can spend his own money...I'm out!!

[chicane]

I was trying to do a direct comparison within one company...ya know the QL vs. DSE lowering springs.

Yeah... I didnt really keep it on the narrow considering that he only asked about the DSE products alone. I just wasnt aware if he had not considered other options as of yet... I probably should have asked, before leaning to far in other directions.

I feel DSE's QL is affordable and better than leafs...sorry if you don't agree and consider it a band-aid....remember we all can have our own opinions.

Well... better than the leafs DSE has to offer, at least.

No need to be sorry about anything... I just dont bandwagon a product or a company just because of the majority of the 'keep up with the Jones'. If someone has a better widget for near the same cost (which the lat D stuff is in the end) but does many things better... why not ?? Broke or monitarily swimming in pools of the almighty dollar, I would still want to get the most for my hard earned cash'ola... and for the dollar spent, in my opinion... it is better spent on the LD 3-link. Without question.

But like I said, its just my opinion... and all this is coming from a leaf spring cat. Leafs work phenomenal, even in contrast to that of the link type rear suspensions, if you actually understand and have working knowledge of the kinematics envolved in all three systems. That is where my opinion lies.

There is design and there is execution. Most get one of those just good enough... and others get them both. Baindaid or not. :yes:

[awr68]

Thanks for keeping it civil....as always it good talking with ya!! ;)

I guess we really should ask how he plans to use the car. If he has no future plans for the track, auto-x, or care about the cool factor of a c/o based suspension then I would save the money and go with leafs....plus it speeds along the build time a little and they work.

For the record, if I was to do my car again I'm sure I would do the LG 3-link....but I did my suspension years ago and I have no interest in starting over at this point ....

[chicane]

....but I did my suspension years ago and I have no interest in starting over at this point ....

I hear ya one that one, I hate doing ^ expensive things twice. :lol:

[71Nova]

I remember Jason saying after driving FUEL with the quadra link, he was never going to build another Camaro with Leafs. That says a lot to me. I curently have DSE 3 in springs and do like them, but I would love to install eather a LD 3 link or Quadra Link. LD first but it is so darn expensive.

[XcYZ]

Stielow gave me a ride in Camaro X, but unfortunately the conditions that day didn't allow us to play too much. The Mule, which was the development mule for the rear suspension, pulled over 1g with Mark's test equipment at Thunderhill with the Michelin Pilot Sports. Jody can attest to how well it works, he was riding shotgun.

[Bowtieracing]

This is intresting thread. Plese more opinions plese. How much QL will affect wheel hope when takeing hard 1/4 lounch on wide 335 tires?

And was it so at DSEs test car won some test against other modded camaros with leafs?

This is important info for people who hasnt decide wich way to go. As much as i like the idea of 3 link i dont like the looks of the watts link cradle and want to keep my rear seat. So its leafs or QL .

[chicane]

And was it so at DSEs test car won some test against other modded camaros with leafs?

Yeah.... but whose leafs ?? There is a lot more to leafs than meets the eye or to what is in the mainstreme market. I know for a fact that out of the two to three people I know, that 'know' leafs, werent included in this test.

In reality, a barney bolt on lowering spring is just that.... a barney bolt on lowering spring.

After having a few conversations with the creator of the QL, I have come to the understanding that there were some compromises to the overall execution of the system that muted its overall capabilities from its original and intended design. But, packaging is and/or it can be the biggest issue in consideration of the design goal. That is/was probably the biggest issue and it was really the reason why CamaroX didnt get the Lateral Dynamics 3-link. There was a question on exhaust clearance and packaging it smartly. I believe that Mark wanted no compormise and no question in his vision of the completed project... could you blame him ?? Not- me.

Another issue to address is you monkey's that are stuffing 335's in the rear. There is a thing refered to as "balance". If you cannot get enough tire in the front to balance out the steamrollers in the rear... the chassis is going to have issues with understeer that might only be band-aid'ed by dialing the suspension into an area in which it will then affect other aspects of handeling. The two that come to mind is increasing accerman and increasing toe which can have a detrimental effect on tire life and stability.

But however.... it does look pretty cool. :unibrow:

[Beegs]

After having a few conversations with the creator of the QL, I have come to the understanding that there were some compromises to the overall execution of the system that muted its overall capabilities from its original and intended design.

I'm thinking of the QL for my car. Can you define for us the compromises in the QL system? I'm curious to know if the limitations are purely performance related, ride quality issue etc...

[zcrz]

And I would like to know who has a good riding set of leaf springs. Mainly street driven, occasional back road thrash?

[the camtender]

And I would like to know who has a good riding set of leaf springs. Mainly street driven, occasional back road thrash?

Who as in manufacturer?,or individual members on this site?

[Bowtieracing]

Yeah.... but whose leafs ?? There is a lot more to leafs than meets the eye or to what is in the mainstreme market. I know for a fact that out of the two to three people I know, that 'know' leafs, werent included in this test.

In reality, a barney bolt on lowering spring is just that.... a barney bolt on lowering spring.

After having a few conversations with the creator of the QL, I have come to the understanding that there were some compromises to the overall execution of the system that muted its overall capabilities from its original and intended design. But, packaging is and/or it can be the biggest issue in consideration of the design goal. That is/was probably the biggest issue and it was really the reason why CamaroX didnt get the Lateral Dynamics 3-link. There was a question on exhaust clearance and packaging it smartly. I believe that Mark wanted no compormise and no question in his vision of the completed project... could you blame him ?? Not- me.

Another issue to address is you monkey's that are stuffing 335's in the rear. There is a thing refered to as "balance". If you cannot get enough tire in the front to balance out the steamrollers in the rear... the chassis is going to have issues with understeer that might only be band-aid'ed by dialing the suspension into an area in which it will then affect other aspects of handeling. The two that come to mind is increasing accerman and increasing toe which can have a detrimental effect on tire life and stability.

But however.... it does look pretty cool. :unibrow:

Thank you Chicane for valuable points to consider. Could you arrange or sell those good "know" leafs? I have no need to build my futuru car from cool catalog but i really wont and appreciate parts and systems wich are really tested and matched to work together. I dont have resources for extensive track or chassis dyno testing. I just want right and reliable package .

[chicane]

Can you define for us the compromises in the QL system?

Without mis-quoting, (as that conversation was a couple of years ago) getting too technical or writing a novel, I believe that the concerns were the link lengths, the ratio of link lengths... and having some geometrical intersects that were shorter than what was considered optimum. But I do know that with the limited amount of wheel travel that our cars have, at the ride heights we run them at, I personally believe that this really becomes a non issue for a track car. But as for a street chassis, unless you have some crazy need for a lot of suspension articulation, it too would have very little effect (street cars dont care about time). It was designed to be packaged the way it is... and there will always be a little give and take into a suspension (the rear) that most people just dont take the time to understand.

The QL is a far depature from running an ordinary leaf spring, that is for sure. In most cases, it will do just fine for a streeter. But if you are looking for that edge over the next guy, or are just anal about having things done correctly or executed as well as it can be done... you definately have better options.

As for cost comparison... what you get out of the LD 3-link for the price is a WHOLE lot more of a complete system than that of a couple of weld on brackets and a pair of dampers. So, in reality... you are getting a lot more for what you pay for. So to compare it to the DSE QL kit... is like comparing apples to Kiwi's. They are not the same tree by any means.

As for leafs... and I mean real leafs, they are right there. If done correctly the performance will be there... but the cost isnt going too far behind either. I think a complete set of leafs, bushings and shackels can run between $650 to $1200 depending on the spring used. For example, if you want professional spring that is hand made for a specific chassis (which is what I mostly do) or a spring that will do really bitchen on the street and your not up to splitting hairs over lap times (which I have done and doing more of). And then.... you also have the dampers to do. And that is a whole'nother monkey all together, because I can go from a $145 a shock to well over $1200 a piece in the blink of an eye.

And I would like to know who has a good riding set of leaf springs. Mainly street driven, occasional back road thrash?

There are other points to consider when asking this question.

First of all, to build the correct rear spring, there is a bunch of information that is required to obtain the wanted ride height and more specifically... the correct spring rate to work with the front suspension system. The rear spring rate is directly related to the front spring rate and any geometrical modifications from OE stock.

So to answer your question... I would need to know your front spring rate, suspension modifiations and all relevent components used, HP and torque production of the engine, engine weight, chassis modifications (fiber glass body parts, battery relocation, etc) and that is about 1/4 of what I would need to know before I even considered a spring recommendation. It would be real easy to just say, "Hey go get these 3 inch drop springs and you'll be good." But, its not that easy... unless your satisified with an (unbeknownst to you) mediocre and unbalanced set up.

Could you arrange or sell those good "know" leafs? I just want right and reliable package .

It can always be had... and who knows... it might be a good time, now or in the near future, to do another GP. I can always do one off sets, they just cost more. It really comes down to what you really want, and more importantly, what you really need. Sure I could do pro springs for anyone, but do you really need them.. ??.. or could you get away with something a little less expensive for a street chassis. Yup, I think so...

(DOH !! I still owe Gallopin (David) a drawing as we speak.) :faint:

[Steve Chryssos]

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. :faint:

I've personally seen DSE's Quadra-Link and DSE leaf springs run within a tenth of a second of each other. Same track, same weather, same driver. I used actual eyeballs to witness this proceeding. My spreadheet was at the dry cleaners. In addition, my olfactory senses provided me with the smell of engine fumes and flatulents emanating from their car owners as both cars were driven to 8/10'ths of their full potential--which is to say very aggressive driving.

It is unlikely that either car will ever experience ten tenths because of the risks associated with that whole 11/10ths thingie. So given that this is a hot rod site, sweating minute performance discrepancies is laughable at best.

If I were forced to draw any conclusion, it would be that Quadra-Links ride real nice and are adjustable while the leaf springs are cheap and easy.

Leaf Springs:
http://www.pro-touring.com/events/pigeon_forge_2006/pictures/autocross/images/DSCF2090.jpg
Quadra-Link:
http://www.pro-touring.com/events/pigeon_forge_2006/pictures/autocross/images/DSCF2083.jpg

[Mean 69]

Just a few clarifications on our stuff, and a opinion or two on the other arguments.

The DSE quadralink, and the Lateral Dynamics 3-Link setup have a few things in common, but not too much. Both require modifications to the trunk area to locate the shocks, both require intrusion to the rear seat area to locate the forward link(s), and both use coil-over shocks in place of the leaf springs. BOTH will allow the use of a modified rear seat, but don't expect to just drop your stock rear seat in either case. Beyond that, the comparisons pretty much end. The price on our kit is quite a bit higher than the DSE setup, but the two kits are nowhere near the same in terms of what you get, compare them and you will see.

It's true the we entertained participating on Mark's Project X, but at that time, we could not say for certain that we could run tailpipes on the car, we were 95% certain, and I could have lied to him, but that's not how we do things. Mark is a great guy and very sharp, moreso than folks probably even realize, and I don't fault his decision to go with what he knew. In fact, it was critically important for us, we went back and changed the design a little to insure, with 100% certainty, that we could run tailpipes, so in the end I thank him for not choosing us: we might not have been so motivated to wring out the design a bit more. At this point, we can run up to 4" tailpipes on our system, the attached photo shows a customer car running 2.5" tubes, there is plenty of room for far larger, and no, these are not mandrel bent tubes, there is plenty of room regardless. Funny, when I asked Mark how he fit the tailpipes on the Mule, he noted that he had to notch the gas tank. Turns out, you don't need to do that with our setup, we didn't exactly expect that, but this car is running a stock style tank, it's a stainless repop from Classic Industries. If you run mini-tubs, with leafs, don't forget to factor in the cost of a new narrowed gas tank, or plan on doing the work yourself. I believe the same to be true with the Quadra Link (i.e. needs to be notched) but this only second hand from people that have seen the setup installed on a car, I haven't personally so I could be wrong. Granted, 4" pipes might not fit with a stock tank, but if you need 4" pipes, you'd better be running a full cage, with a "real" fuel cell, or you should seek mental help right away.

Our setup is adjustable. By design. The majority of the folks that will run our setup won't ever use this, but there are a darned good number of folks that will. And by adjustable, I mean more than just tuning the ride height, or spring rate. With changes in ride height comes changes in aspects such as anti-squat, roll steer, roll center height. Want to tune it for a special setup? You can. Don't need to? No sweat there either. It's not terribly important for most folks that are running the typical hot rod, and that's completely fine in our book. But, it is important to us, CRITICALLY important. Please don't use the "well, I shouldn't need to adjust the system, I just want to bolt it on and it should be perfect" argument, it's not valid. Do you tune your carb? Adjust the ignition timing? There are folks out there making careers out of tuning the newer awesome fuel injection systems. Why? Because they have the tools and knowledge to do so. Some folks will just want a "chip" to plug into their setup and will be fine with that. We can do the same by guiding you to an excellent baseline on our setup. Other folks want the software to tune every little aspect of the system, and we have this same analogy with our gear too. Better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

We use tubular steel, fixture welded crossmembers to react the high loads associated with the setup. We weld our own housings, because there are few folks that we trust to do it correctly, we have seen far more "bad" work done on cars than we have good, or even acceptable. Some folks can handle it given the right tools and knowledge, most folks can't (here's a hint: metal warps when you apply a lot of heat to it, such as with welding).

Let's face it, no one NEEDS all of the go fast stuff we put on our cars, we WANT it. We don't just set our cars up for the best performance, we set them up the way each of us wants. Playing on Steveo's blah blah blah comment on the RTH2 event, his paddle shifter most likely didn't make the car go any faster, so why bother running one and spending the extra money? 'cause it's cool. There's a lot to these decisions, not the least of which is brand loyalty. DSE has some fiercly loyal followers, Lateral Dynamics does too (we're just five years behind in terms of being in business, so there's a lot fewer!!). On one hand, it's a pain for the new consumer to sort through it all, on the other hand, choice is never a bad thing. Whatever you decide, have a great time with it, this hobby is a blast and everyone should not forget to have as much fun with it as possible.

Cheers,
Mark

P.S. And yes, 335's can and usually do hurt the balance due to the confines of the front/tire sizes, but who cares on the "street," they look WAY too cool not to run them if possible!!! Attached is a pic of a second gen mocked up with meats, baby.

[XcYZ]

Great post as always, Mark. :thumbsup:

[Steve Chryssos]

..................Playing on Steveo's blah blah blah comment on the RTH2 event, his paddle shifter most likely didn't make the car go any faster, so why bother running one and spending the extra money? 'cause it's cool......

Correct. Much like the leaf to 4 link comparison, there was no appreciable performance advantage between manual and auto.

[Bowtieracing]

Ìs this the first ever "lets turn every stone to find the correct answer" topic here on hard core suspension kits ? I really hope so!

One word to all vendors on business; As for regular guy from the "woods of camaros" - like me- these suspension tricks are really not so clear! Even following this and PT site for a long time. As you remember "first" came twister,every magazine said it was really good,then mule with mother of QL -even better ! Now 3 link way better and at the same time Chicane swears for good leafs :eek:

So this isn't really going anywhere for me :rofl:

And yes I am a victim of good advertising and reputation of DSE,and now I am reading between the lines, these suspension gurus don't know how to make good leafs?

I wish I could try every possible combination of available systems out there but I can't afford to! I can honestly say I may never want to go for hard laps on a track,but still want my car be able to handle it.

Mark i am happy to hear at rear seat is still useable with 3 link. Can you post pic or two how it look like ? And plese tell me what kind of combination would work with 335s ?

Lets continue :thumbsup:

[chicane]

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Hey look everybody, I'm an asshat.


( :bow: I've personally seen :bow: ) DSE's Quadra-Link and DSE leaf springs run within a tenth of a second of each other.

Well that right there sums up my point. Since there is nothing special about the DSE leafs, meaning that they lack various and superior attributes of todays available leaf technology, what might that say about the performance of the QL vs. the average barney bolt on lowering spring like DSE's ?? Now how about vs. a design specific leaf spring ??

That alone completes any arguement that one can have a leaf set-up to unquestionably meet and/or beat various link suspensions. Now as for the adjustability... the link systems pretty much have it hands down, for the most part. The leaf system, if run with a DA / TA Penske or Moton comes right back into the game... at a near absurd cost, but still under the link systems. Believe it or not, the ride height is adjustable, albiet not as easy as it is with the coil-over systems. I am not knocking link systems what-so-ever. Long before LatD, I once dreamed a 3-link was the cats meow... and now there is no question... its even better than I dreamed.

But... since an expert with a super human medulla oblongata is now present, Ill skip the part that there are those who have actually driven and have the actual experience of a properly designed leaf ....vs.... modern late model IRS systems, beyond the grandure of mere visual observations at a single weekend event.

... Now 3 link way better and at the same time Chicane swears for good leafs.

...these suspension gurus don't know how to make good leafs?

...and plese tell me what kind of combination would work with 335s ?

Yup. Good leafs or a 3-link. But that's just my feeble opinion.

Not everyone knows leafs. Its a dying art anymore because of the mother of invention and the insight of todays engineers and designers. I was just lucky enough to learn leafs from Ole Dickeypoo Guldstrand, the old school Penske cats and not to forget to mention, Ben and Tony Elkins. Trust me, there is a whole world that hasent even been shared in the way of leaf springs.

A combination to balance out the use of 335's ?? In a 1st Gen F-body... how about something like 315's.

[Steve Chryssos]

Thanks Tom. I re-read this thread 17 times trying to figure out exactly what the hell you're recommending. After this reply, it seems clear:

a) Your magic pixie dust leaf springs, OR
b) the Lateral-g 3 Link.

which is to say....Your "anything but DSE" agenda.

Understood. Funny thing is....I don't disagree with the technical content of your replies. I only disagree with the context. Off the shelf leaf springs are more than adequate for a pro-touring application. Other than mediocre ride quality and a lack of adjustability, off the shelf leaf springs from DSE, Hotchkis, GW, etc. will take just about anything that a pro-touring car can throw at them with the exception of full blown 10/10ths competition use. That includes track days, auto-crossing and spirited back road driving. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Just someone who drives the hell out of a bunch of cars.

As for the Lateral-g 3 link, I've never seen one in person or seen it operate. I'm sure I will get that opportunity in the near future since one is installed in one of the projects that I 'm involved with--Jake's 68. And I'm sure it will work excellent.

As is the case with every other system that I have experienced, I doubt that the 3 link will offer any real performance advantage at 4/10ths or 8/10ths. Ride quality--yes; Adjustability--yes. But the real limitation to all of these suspension systems is that most pro-touring enthusiasts do not want to sacrifice their paint jobs. So 10/10ths never gets realized. Save your jibberish for posts that specifically inquire about true competition driving. Otherwise, try to be honest about these parts relative to how they will be used. You don't need a space shuttle to run errands around town. And spirited, backroad driving accounts for about 4/10ths of the average pro-touring car's capabilities. So very few of these cars achieve 8/10ths--let alone 10/10ths. You've got all the right answers, but you keep getting the questions wrong.

As for my experience, I will gladly meet you in the middle of the country for a head to head challenge. My off the shelf leaf springs against your magic pixie dust leaf springs. You should clean all of that garbage out of your car's cockpit though. Our cars deserve better than to be treated like a dumpsters Your car hasn't moved since the last millenium. Post a current picture of your car please--with today's newspaper on the hood.

[Bowtieracing]

Thank you Steve!!!!

You answered all my questions and my suspicions in single reply :thumbsup:

Brgs "4/10 racer"

[Steve Chryssos]

Seriously, I hate getting into a pissing match with Tom, but people are being misled. His statements are technically accurate, but the application is wrong. His remarks apply to racing--not pro-touring. Every statement is fully applcable to a race car where lap times are all that matter; where banging fenders or an off track excusrion is a possible by-product of winning. But that favorite back road? The one with the 30 mph recommended speed limits? A typical pro-touring car can run that 30mph road at about 70-75mph without breaking a sweat. That's 4/10ths--NOT racing. That is what almost all pro-touring enthusiasts will experience. If you're taking that 30mph road at 90mph then you're either stupid or negligent. Ultimate parts will not change that. Buy the ultimate parts because you want them. I do. But don't buy them because someone told you that the ordinary off the shelf parts are unacceptable.

Even those few pro-touring enthusiasts who enjoy track days or autocross are not willing to push their cars to the limit. They want to hot lap, but they don't want to lose grip and slide into a wall or another car. Hitting curbs or tire barriers is unacceptable. So they hold back. I do.

The original post makes no mention of competition or maximum performance. So why bring custom $1200 leafs into the conversation? Why tell people that the ordinary parts do not work? What is the possible benefit? Why waste people's time with imaginary parts? How much is shipping from Never-neverland? What is your shop's phone number? What forms of payment do you accept? What's your URL? Exactly how is the average enthusiast supposed to acquire these extraordinary leafs? Will tinkerbell deliver them?

I'll tell you what: I suggest we form two race teams. The Happy Idiots (that's my team) against the Rocket Scientists (that's Tom's team) Five pro-touring cars per team. All on approved full street tires. We meet at AirRides Putnam Park event and square off.

[Mkelcy]

Where's that darn popcorn eating smilie?

[Bowtieracing]

Where's that darn popcorn eating smilie?

I dont think we need it. This post isnt bashing or fight between two. Purpose of this post is to answer regular joes-like me - 4/10 racing need with good pro touring looks. Finally we are getting there-thanks for Steve!

Now i know what to do with my rear suspension-and saved even few bucks compared to my orginal plan wich was DSE QL. Now i am sure i will get 100% what i am after with deep tubs and 3" drop leafs.

Only thing wich is still "open" for me is steering and wheel / tire combo.

[68protouring454]

I'll tell you what: I suggest we form two race teams. The Happy Idiots (that's my team) against the Rocket Scientists (that's Tom's team) Five pro-touring cars per team. All on approved full street tires. We meet at AirRides Putnam Park event and square off.

agreed, can i come play??!!!?? :unibrow:

[Steve Chryssos]

Purpose of this post is to answer regular joes-like me - 4/10 racing need with good pro touring looks. Finally we are getting there-thanks for Steve!

Performance isn't everything. The DSE Quadra-Link, or other quality link style suspension will give you far superior ride quality as compared to leaf springs. Mid corner bumps will be less unsettling. And coil-overs allow for easy ride height adjustment and spring rate swaps. These are the primary considerations. Ride height adjustment might sound trivial, but I went thru many sets of leaf springs and lowering blocks before achieveing my car's current ride height.

Now that I've had the opportunity to drive a variety of cars, I want to ultimately get rid of the leaf springs. I want to at least maintain my car's current level of performance while improving ride quality. Since this is a pro-touring car, ultimate performance is a lower requirement than ride quality, adjustment, packaging, price and ease of installation.

First I will learn how to weld. Then I will do the swap. Probably 3 link. Maybe next year.

[Steve Chryssos]

agreed, can i come play??!!!?? :unibrow:

Sure. What team do you want to be on?

[Beegs]

I'm an idiot and I'm happy. :D

[68protouring454]

I AM NOT SPECIAL , so i guess i would have to be on the happy idiots

[Stuart Adams]

I'll be on the "leg humpers" and "cool guy" team. I'll drive Stacys camaro. :unibrow:

[Jimmy Sean]

Where's that darn popcorn eating smilie?

Your killing me,:rofl: I logged on to check this thread and I'm sitting hear eating popcorn. :lol:

[Mikael A]

First I will learn how to weld. Then I will do the swap. Probably 3 link. Maybe next year.[/QUOTE]

I have a tig and a mig if you want to come and try it.

mike a

[Steve Chryssos]

Thanks Mike,
Come on out. We'll take you for a spin in a few different pro-touring cars with various chassis set ups.

[Mikael A]

Thanks Mike,
Come on out. We'll take you for a spin in a few different pro-touring cars with various chassis set ups.

I tried to make it out there all summer to see jims red car but work and wife
gets in the way.
But before i decide on a rear chassi set up i would like to make it out there.

mike a

[chicane]

Well, lets start out with the topic of question, shall we ??

I have a question about Detroit Speed's quadra link system. I'm building a '69 Camaro resto-rod, and I'm debating whether to install DSE's quadra link rear end vs. modern leaf springs. My main concern with this car is drivability - I'm don't really care about originality...

Gee looky there, it says modern leaf springs. Huh. So I guess this isnt all about an off the shelf leaf spring now is it ??

Thanks Tom. I re-read this thread 17 times trying to figure out exactly what the hell you're recommending.

Wow... you must have been eating pie all night, it only took me a single re-read... and a single qoute:

That alone completes any arguement that one can have a leaf set-up to unquestionably meet and/or beat various link suspensions.

But as for this... who is misdirecting who ?? You sound like the Democratic hard line:

which is to say....Your "anything but DSE" agenda.


Its not an "anything but DSE" agenda there Polchow. This topic questions products from DSE and no other entity, nor was any other product line included in what has been questioned. If this would have included Hotchkis, VBP, EATON and/or Global West leaf springs my replies would have NOT changed. So Steevo- dont mislead, read between the lines or misinterpret what has been stated.

Seriously, I hate getting into a pissing match with Tom, but people are being misled.

His statements are technically accurate, but the application is wrong. His remarks apply to racing--not pro-touring. Every statement is fully applicable to a race car where lap times are all that matter; where banging fenders or an off track excusrion is a possible by-product of winning..

Uhhhhm... no. Obviously another misdirection on your behalf. Care to expound on this one Steve ?? How is the application wrong ?? Because there are DSE parts in question ?? The application isnt wrong. The available technology is, can and has been applied to a 150# street spring and that of a 350# high bank spring. YOU are the only one directing this toward a single use application. I never stated any such thing. But allow me to include the following quote as to encompass the rest of my answer:

But that favorite back road? The one with the 30 mph recommended speed limits? A typical pro-touring car can run that 30mph road at about 70-75mph without breaking a sweat. That's 4/10ths--NOT racing. That is what almost all pro-touring enthusiasts will experience. If you're taking that 30mph road at 90mph then you're either stupid or negligent. Ultimate parts will not change that. Buy the ultimate parts because you want them. I do. But don't buy them because someone told you that the ordinary off the shelf parts are unacceptable.

Again, this isnt solely directed towards a RACING spring. Just because a "Pro-Touring" chassis isnt on a race track, does not mean that it will not experience the same conditions off of the track. Will it experience wheel hop ?? How about exessive wheel spin ?? Or how about tortional loading of the spring, even at low speeds ?? Or what about axle tramp under braking ?? All of this... ALL OF THIS happends... whether or not you are driving on your favorite twisty road, or on a track. So yes, it does have a direct effect.

But don't buy them because someone told you that the ordinary off the shelf parts are unacceptable.

Exactly a point I was trying to convey. But, why have and ordinary off the shelf spring if you are looking for a modern spring to begin with ?? Especially, if you can build that modern spring and that it can cost you, about the same shipped, OR less than what the ordinary spring is being offered at ?? As I stated before, depending on application.. depends on cost.

Gee a better part for the same dough ?? Huh, who woulda thunk it.

The original post makes no mention of competition or maximum performance. So why bring custom $1200 leafs into the conversation?.

For a cost comparison, maybe ?? Rocket scientist huh... ?? :P

Do they have to be $1200 springs ?? No. I have had sets made for clients that did not require a professional spring for $132 a spring. As stated before, it depends on the application.

Why waste people's time with imaginary parts? How much is shipping from Never-neverland? What is your shop's phone number? What forms of payment do you accept? What's your URL? Exactly how is the average enthusiast supposed to acquire these extraordinary leafs? Will tinkerbell deliver them?

Imaginary parts ?? What imaginary parts ?? Why not ask the 15 or so over on Camaros.net about their recently acquired imaginary parts. And why you are at it... why dont you go ask the owners of the circa 67-73 Vintage Trans-am Camaro and Firebird chassis about their imaginary parts. Gee, how about it Steve... your really showing your ass aren't you ??

Shipping, dont know... dont where they are going to. But from Escondido California to New York is about $50 per spring. Phone number is 747-5050. All types of payment are accepted. How do you get them ?? Well, I do the engineering drawing, send it to the shop that is going to perform the work and you then wait for the brown truck... the tinkerbell outfit is optional at an additional cost.

As for my experience, I will gladly meet you in the middle of the country for a head to head challenge. My off the shelf leaf springs against your magic pixie dust leaf springs.

Not a bad idea. But I dont think I could handle the headache from that annoying horn you have.

[Steve Chryssos]

Got it. So I call up E&C Spring in Escondido, CA and say that I'd like to order a set of springs. When they ask for specifics, I reply "I dunno. Some guy named Tom from the internet will contact you with a print." Will I need a secret handshake or a password?

Sounds silly. People frequent message boards looking for straight answers. The come for solutions. They trust that smart guys such as yourself will set them straight and make their lives easier. Your furtive, roundabout response leaves people stuck in the mud. "....Crap! The smart guy says the Quadra-Link and commercially available leaf springs don't work!"

[clill]

The Thrasher is a really fun and predictable track car and it has rear leafs from Landrum spring Co. Virtually everyone on this site could have a great track day with rear leafs.

[XcYZ]

Are you guys done? You do know it's just about Christmas, right? I'm not going to pick sides, I'm friends with both of you, so I'll respectfully ask that you guys relax a bit.

Thanks. :)

[awr68]

The Thrasher is a really fun and predictable track car and it has rear leafs from Landrum spring Co. Virtually everyone on this site could have a great track day with rear leafs.

Good to hear! But didn't you say after the track day a couple-few months ago that the Mule was your favorite camaro for the track now? Was that because of power, braking, front suspension, or the rear suspension? I know there is a lot to factor in, but does the Mule just plain drive better than your leaf sprung cars?

I'm hoping all the work I put into my 4-bar will be worth it!!

Thanks Charlie!!

[Steve Chryssos]

Are you guys done? You do know it's just about Christmas, right? I'm not going to pick sides, I'm friends with both of you, so I'll respectfully ask that you guys relax a bit.

Thanks. :)

Sorry Scott. I think Tom and I both have thick skin, so the exchange might look worse than it is. I'm done.

[awr68]

Steve, for what it's worth I though it was a good idea to remind all of us the differance between street/open track day driving and full on racing. It's easy to get all caught up in the 'you gotta have these parts' deal, and it's always nice to have a reminder that the basic parts do get the job done for 99% of us...but if the budget allows it's also OK to go for it and get the neet stuff!!

I for one would have been a lot further along with my build if I wouldn't have gone with a hand built c/o based rear suspension...but it's finished now and I'm glad I did it! But in all reality for the type of driving I'm going to do, drop leafs and offset shackels probably would have done the trick....

[XcYZ]

Sorry Scott. I think Tom and I both have thick skin, so the exchange might look worse than it is. I'm done.

No worries, Steve. I just thought it may spiral out of control.

[Steve1968LS2]

agreed, can i come play??!!!?? :unibrow:

I'm game.. given my IQ and my jovial attitude I know what team I would play on.. lol

[clill]

I was very happry with both the Mule and the Thrasher. I'm not a race guy so I am not one that is going to push the car to the limits to where a small advantage in suspension will make a difference. The Thrasher is now owned by a friend so it is no longer a track day option for me. Both cars just felt right at home on the track.

[Bill Howell]

I'll be on the "leg humpers" and "cool guy" team. I'll drive Stacys camaro. :unibrow:

I am with you Stuart :thumbsup:
However, my little bu did pretty good at the last "unsanctioned,unorganized, unprofessional, proved nothing" event. One thing though, it was fun as hell.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/0612phr_video_01.mov
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/0612phr_video_02.mov
One thing I do know, you could not wipe the smile off of any of the driver's faces as they came back around to run one more time. Whether it was Kyle Tucker, Bret, or Jim Grayson, everyone had that same silly smile everytime. I guess that one day they were all Happy Idiots. Sorry, no professors there that day that I can remember. Wait, did I just bring this tread back to what it should all be about, enjoying our cars, surely not.....
Hopefully we will have another event where we can truely get some of these "True performance cars" to attend. I am dieing to see how they measure up to all the ones I have seen run. I bet a round of drinks, right here right now, that they too will be within a second of everyone else there. Any takers???
I get some good tires and a few more cubes and I might win without a quadralink or leaf springs..... :lol:
Did I mention it was fun?
Thanks PHR for the video! :thumbsup:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eve...driving_event/

OH yeah, about four weeks later, with rubber still on the quarters from the event, I drove it to Daytona and back, 1500+ miles. If I can just get that radio fixed..... I will have a pro TOURING car..... :lol:

[chicane]

Are you guys done? You do know it's just about Christmas, right? I'm not going to pick sides, I'm friends with both of you, so I'll respectfully ask that you guys relax a bit.

Thanks. :)

Sorry Scott. Steveo's right... we're pretty thick skinned.

I will say that our debates have always been a good one... no matter what it is or what its about. Not to worry... I see no bad blood here, nor in the future. If this actually went down in public and everyone saw the rib shots, joking and carry-ing on... it wouldnt look as bad as this thread has read.

Got it. So I call up E&C Spring in Escondido, CA and say that I'd like to order a set of springs. When they ask for specifics, I reply "I dunno. Some guy named Tom from the internet will contact you with a print." Will I need a secret handshake or a password?

Well, yes. I have had a friendship and working relationship with Tony and his late father for many, many years. They have done all my builds, from the land speed record stuff to the ProTrucks and all the way to the freakishly articulating rock crawlers. We have always worked well that way, and frankly, its because it has always worked for us. We collectively take care of the technical stuff so you dont have to. I do the drawing, Tony and I do the math per-say, and we make sure you get exactly what it is your requirements need, to the best of our abilities. The financial transaction is between the end user and the spring company... as that is not my gig. I have always done the spring drawings and the foot work for free.

The smart guy says the Quadra-Link and commercially available leaf springs don't work!"

I never once stated that they wouldnt work. I did however, state that there are better ways to skin the cat and have custom, chassis specific, affordable parts that work better than the average.

The Thrasher is a really fun and predictable track car and it has rear leafs from Landrum spring Co. Virtually everyone on this site could have a great track day with rear leafs.

The Thrasher was also Marks favorite track car, as I remember, from his stories of that peticular chassis. Probably my most favorite Stielow car of all time.... well.... right next to the Red Witch. Which is right next to the Mule.... which.... is in.... Charlie's garage. Damn that guy.

[Bowtieracing]

Thanks guys for "intresting" lesson of rear suspension options.

..Sounds silly. People frequent message boards looking for straight answers. The come for solutions. They trust that smart guys such as yourself will set them straight and make their lives easier. Your furtive, roundabout response leaves people stuck in the mud. "....Crap! The smart guy says the Quadra-Link and commercially available leaf springs don't work!"


Well actually i still dont know what to do.. I do not want the wheel hope , because i like to leave hard and spin tires just for fun :P and still want the lower good looking stance wich i have seen is possible with DSE drop leafs. Front end will be DSE coil over kit on stock sub frame. I think i can trust DSE have worked these kits to work together ?


Well, yes. I have had a friendship and working relationship with Tony and his late father for many, many years. They have done all my builds, from the land speed record stuff to the ProTrucks and all the way to the freakishly articulating rock crawlers. We have always worked well that way, and frankly, its because it has always worked for us. We collectively take care of the technical stuff so you dont have to. I do the drawing, Tony and I do the math per-say, and we make sure you get exactly what it is your requirements need, to the best of our abilities. The financial transaction is between the end user and the spring company... as that is not my gig. I have always done the spring drawings and the foot work for free.



So is it possible order a set from you ? If i send all info i can get to you and cost will be somewhere even close as DSE leafs ? Do i get good "4/10" racing / street / good stance / no wheel hope leafs ? If so i am really intrested.

As Scott said lets keep this civil so i and rest of the regular joes can learn as much as possible :thumbsup:

[Stuart Adams]

I'll take a new ZO6 right out of the box and be done with all this leaf, QL, etc.etc. QL would be my choice if I was involved in this pissing contest.

Like SW sais why thrash your pro touring car when you can take a stock ZO6 and kick booty.

Good job Scott for settling down the neighborhood.

[Steve Chryssos]

Well actually i still dont know what to do.. I do not want the wheel hope , because i like to leave hard and spin tires just for fun :P and still want the lower good looking stance wich i have seen is possible with DSE drop leafs. Front end will be DSE coil over kit on stock sub frame. I think i can trust DSE have worked these kits to work together?

I have two leaf spring cars here at my disposal--One with Hotchkis springs, one with DSE springs. The Hotchkis car does not suffer any wheel hop or axle tramp whatsoever. The DSE car (mine) has begun to exhibit some wheel hop under hard straightline acceleration. But only after swapping from a 12 bolt to a 9". Before the 9" there was zero wheel hop. I will check pinion angle here in a coupla weeks.

The car with Hotchkis leafs has DSE coilover conversion, ATS spindles, Konis, and DSE A-arms. Tires are 255/45-18 Toyos

[Bowtieracing]

I have two leaf spring cars here at my disposal--One with Hotchkis springs, one with DSE springs. The Hotchkis car does not suffer any wheel hop or axle tramp whatsoever. The DSE car (mine) has begun to exhibit some wheel hop under hard straightline acceleration. But only after swapping from a 12 bolt to a 9". Before the 9" there was zero wheel hop. I will check pinion angle here in a coupla weeks.

The car with Hotchkis leafs has DSE coilover conversion, ATS spindles, Konis, and DSE A-arms. Tires are 255/45-18 Toyos


Thanks Steve(again!!) for real life data :thumbsup:

One more dump question. Is there any reason to control side to side movement with leafs ? I know panhard pan may not be the best one for leafs.

[Steve Chryssos]

No, deflection is not a major concern with leaf springs. It does occur, but minimally. That's why I am able to get away with running a 285mm tire and 10" wheel in a stock wheelwell.

[Steve Chryssos]

I'll take a new ZO6 right out of the box and be done with all this leaf, QL, etc.etc.......

Who wouldn't?

[Mkelcy]

Who wouldn't?Actually, I'm guessing a lot of us wouldn't.

Let's face it, many of us have (or will have) the cost of a ZO6 in one or more vintage cars. I know I could likely sell my Camaros and everything I have for them and get pretty close to the cost of a ZO6. But then all I have is a ZO6 which will depreciate pretty rapidly, as compared to my 3 first gens which will, at worst, not go down in value as quickly as a ZO6.

In addition, I have the pleasure of knowing every nut and bolt on my cars, and knowing that the performance they exhibit is the result of my research, time and effort. No one driving a ZO6 has that feeling.

[Bowtieracing]

No, deflection is not a major concern with leaf springs. It does occur, but minimally. That's why I am able to get away with running a 285mm tire and 10" wheel in a stock wheelwell.


Great! leafs it is :cool:


Like SW sais why thrash your pro touring car when you can take a stock ZO6 and kick booty.


Thanks Stuart reminding me of SWs awsome camaro. I was just viewing it. It has leafs and 335 too :hail:

[Steve Chryssos]

Actually, I'm guessing a lot of us wouldn't. .....

Variety is the spice of life. I'll take one of each.

[GHOSTDANCER]

Good reading :thumbsup:

[chicane]

Hey... the Z06 uses leaf springs !! :lol:

[Bowtieracing]

I have two leaf spring cars here at my disposal--One with Hotchkis springs, one with DSE springs. The Hotchkis car does not suffer any wheel hop or axle tramp whatsoever. The DSE car (mine) has begun to exhibit some wheel hop under hard straightline acceleration. But only after swapping from a 12 bolt to a 9". Before the 9" there was zero wheel hop. I will check pinion angle here in a coupla weeks.

The car with Hotchkis leafs has DSE coilover conversion, ATS spindles, Konis, and DSE A-arms. Tires are 255/45-18 Toyos


Have you got any info between 9" or 12 bolt? I have planned to go with offset DSE leafs but so far thought 9" would be better? But if not i would like to have opinion. I think my tire choise will be 275 at front and 335 at rear.

I believe this is important therd to keep alive. I am looking for most bang for the buck in name of as good handling as possible. I finally got answered from DSE to my question wich was :

Q:Plese give me your honest opinoin here: Do i really need the Quadralink with DSE front suspension or can i go with your 3" drop springs ? Can i notice the difference with 100% street driving skills ??

A:4. The 3” drop springs work good, but the QUADRA-Link takes it to the next level. In our testing there was vast improvement in all “road coarse” and “drag strip” numbers

That was good reply from DSE but i cant imagine "how good" the improvement really is with average joe driving skill.

[Stuart Adams]

Have you got any info between 9" or 12 bolt? I have planned to go with offset DSE leafs but so far thought 9" would be better? But if not i would like to have opinion. I think my tire choise will be 275 at front and 335 at rear.

I believe this is important therd to keep alive. I am looking for most bang for the buck in name of as good handling as possible. I finally got answered from DSE to my question wich was :

Q:Plese give me your honest opinoin here: Do i really need the Quadralink with DSE front suspension or can i go with your 3" drop springs ? Can i notice the difference with 100% street driving skills ??

A:4. The 3” drop springs work good, but the QUADRA-Link takes it to the next level. In our testing there was vast improvement in all “road coarse” and “drag strip” numbers

That was good reply from DSE but i cant imagine "how good" the improvement really is with average joe driving skill.

Kyle states both the quality of the ride and performance is improved which is pretty sweet. Its surely not a NEED but like a channel changer, once used always wanted. Jason's FUEL has the Q link and was on PT, maybe he will post about it.

[fesler]

we do all four link rear ends on our Camaros with air bags or Coil overs and they are far better then the springs. We did one car with a set of springs and did not like the way it handled at all. The four link is by far the best way to go if you dont mind cutting the car up and can do your own fab or have a shop that can do it for you. Its about a days labor to get it all in depending on what way you run the rear set up.

[Boulder69]

I have DSE 3" leafs with the basic red Koni classics. They ride pretty rough compared to stock, but the roads here do suck. But on the plus side, it was a pretty cheap setup, and my Camaro's a$$ is no longer sky high. Along with the barney bolt on 2" drop front coils and Konis my ride no longer has the Caddy lean in the canyons. Still a long way from sporty, but that is just a matter of dough for wheels at this point. The rest of the stuff is sitting around in boxes teasing me.

One advantage of the pixie dust springs is not relying on a vendor for the long haul. What if the PT style fades and these companies disappear? Where you gonna find that funky bushing made for a link system from a company that is no longer around? Leafs are the stock configuration and there will likely always be some old fart that can design and build good ones. One disadvantage of the pixie dust springs may be the need for some really $pendy shocks. Or not.

I plan on one day going with the LD 3-linky, but for now leafs will do. I also plan on going with 9.5" rear wheels to start, but since I will be spending the bucks on Forgelines (still saving Frank), I can go wider later if I need to (3-piece makes it cheaper). I'm not sure how much more than a 285 I would need if I stick with the standard 245 front anyway.

I guess my point is I'm willing to sacrifice some performance and money to have budget pro-touring now, with a little more refined setup later. I want to drive as much as possible, so a little lost cash selling used stuff when I upgrade is more than worth it to me.

Good info in this thread. I've ignored it until tonight - I thought it was just another "what kind of wheels should I get" thang. :lateral: -eric

P.S. It's freaking cold here right now.

[Leadfoot1]

we do all four link rear ends on our Camaros with air bags or Coil overs and they are far better then the springs. We did one car with a set of springs and did not like the way it handled at all. The four link is by far the best way to go if you dont mind cutting the car up and can do your own fab or have a shop that can do it for you. Its about a days labor to get it all in depending on what way you run the rear set up.

I was doing much the same as Boulder.... Great reading in fact!

Chris, your the only one who brought "Bags" to the discussion. Having read good stuff on the Air bar and such, anyone care to discuss that style of hang? I'm almost there on ordering an airbar for mine and for sure interested in performance, but the ease of tuning, of height adjustment and RIDE QUALITY are also important. I saw the article where the AB bested the QL, so to me it sounds interesting (make that no brainer) to get all the advantages of the AB for less $.

Opinions?

Also, Chris, did you get the message on me asking the size of the wheels/ tires on the blue Yenko 69 you give the link to? I'm interested in comparing other 69's with 19"s up front as i just got mine and am unsure of tire size to run. Thanks!

[mazspeed]

I saw the article where the AB bested the QL, so to me it sounds interesting (make that no brainer) to get all the advantages of the AB for less $.

In ride, not all out performance.

[Jr]

I saw the article where the AB bested the QL, so to me it sounds interesting (make that no brainer) to get all the advantages of the AB for less $.

Do you have a link to the article?
David

[cykotic]

Doesn't air bags mess with the front geometry? Screws up the camber or whatever?

[Leadfoot1]

In ride, not all out performance.


Nope, Best Lap.

I'll try and find it.

Lead.

[Leadfoot1]

Doesn't air bags mess with the front geometry? Screws up the camber or whatever?


Yes, when your on the ground..But you dont roll at that height. You set the suspension at ride height so its at the good setting while rolling down the road.

Lead.

[mazspeed]

Nope, Best Lap.

I'll try and find it.

Lead.

I think second best lap and by a professional driver no less.

[Boulder69]

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22721&highlight=autocross+hell

[Leadfoot1]

Yeah, i think you might be right, i think it was second best.

Still. Secon on a field of Hi perf proven systems. Thats MORE than AWESOME for the advantages the Air bar offers (flexibility, height adjustment and as you mentionned yourself....Ride quality)

Nobody wanted to hear about Air a few short months ago, so being right on the a$$ of the "Best" (and do you recall the difference in time, it wasn't much at all if i remember) its worth being considered, hey, you get more fore less$!

My point of view.

Thanks for remembering Maz,

Lead.

I looked for the article but cant find it on the net, gotta look at my mags i guess. If i find it i'll post it for everyones benefit.

[Boulder69]

Lead, I already posted it above. :thumbsup:

[Leadfoot1]

Cool, just received it.

It wasn't on when i checked in, we must have been typing at the same time:lol: .

Hey, Thanks!!!

Lead.

[Steve Chryssos]

Nope, Best Lap.

I'll try and find it.

Lead.


Read that thread again: QUOTE: me "After the show, Tony Bolton clicked off a 63.817 in the Air Ride Buick. So you could say that a big ol' airbag equipped A-body beat all of the Camaros. And I knw that a lot of you don't want to hear this, but the airbag cars ran hard, hooked up and ran with the metal spring cars. " END QUOTE.

The first words are "After the show". The track was shutting us down when Tony hopped into the Buick for the hell of it and ran the 63-eight. The official race was over. It was an impromptu post-race lap. I can confidently state that if the event had not ended, all of the top cars could have clicked off 63 second laps. The lesson learned was not that the Air Ride Buick was fastest--it was that all cars ran surprisingly similar times.

Bret's Buick had a lotta beans under the hood, but I still think my car can beat it. Hopefully, we'll find out this year.

[Efi69Cam]

Kyle states both the quality of the ride and performance is improved which is pretty sweet. Its surely not a NEED but like a channel changer, once used always wanted. Jason's FUEL has the Q link and was on PT, maybe he will post about it.


I think the ride quality is the key point. The fact that the QL improves the car as much as it does without requiring big changes to the car is an impressive engineering feat. Why are leaf srings not used on any car built for the last 20+ years? Even the new full size SUVs from GM have coilovers and 4 link in back.

While I have yet to do the grinding and finish work on my install, so far I have only a day in it, and I work alone in my garage with limited tools.

For a self install that turns out looking like a factory setup, there is no better deal than the QL.

Personally I think folks that figure they are going to tear up on a road course in a 40y/o car are missing alot. A used C5 Z06 will cost less and perform much better in bone stock form than any modified 1st gen Camaro and is a better car than 99% of us, myself included, know how to drive.

[Steve Chryssos]

Now we're getting somewhere. With regards to pro-touring (as opposed to racing), more emphasis should be placed on ride quality than ultimate 10/10ths grip. And pretty much all of the options will ride significantly better than leaf springs.

[Leadfoot1]

The first words are "After the show".

Bret's Buick had a lotta beans under the hood, but I still think my car can beat it. Hopefully, we'll find out this year.[/QUOTE]
.................................................. .................................................. ....

Honestly, i don't really care who won the event and that your car "probably" could beat any other vehicle. Or any other car not in the comparision i was reffering to for that matter.

The only thing i was reffering to was this ; (Hey, thanks Eric!)

2nd Place: 1971 Camaro Brett Voelkel: 64.186 sec.(Read-Air susp)
WINNER: 1969 Camaro Kyle and Stacy Tucker: 64.107 sec (Read, QL)

as i was interested in bringing to the discussion the fact that the Airbar and the QL we're in the same performance offering capabilities, but that the AB offers some qualities that the QL doesn't...One of them, Ride quality.

All that, because the original post asks of the QL and also, the fact that i'm about to put an AB in my car and would appreciate other enthousiasts opinion, +, at the same time making Syenko aware that the AB could be a very interesting choice for him as its cheaper in $ and offers some nice +'s to the QL.

Maybe that will now make you consider the AB for your own ride Steve after having been beat by an air equipped car, no? Nice set up, lowers to the touch of a button, goes up for oil change, costs at least 500$ less than QL, adjustability, ride quality etc...And! You don't have to be much of a welder as its a bolt on!!! (Altought i plan on welding it in...)

Take it cool, i only wanted to share what i've seen about the AB because that's what i'm doin.

:cool:

Lead.

[Steve Chryssos]

Oh. I thought you meant the Buick. I'm cool like Fonzie. I was making a joke with the winner/loser thing. Yeah the AirBar did great. The QL seemed more planted than the 2nd Gen AirBar. The A-body AirBars, on the other hand, looked real surefooted. Maybe because A-bodies have room for longer links. AirRide said it was a tire pressure thing. But in the end the times are close. When the video is done (soon--I promise. We hired a pro to finish it), you will be able to see how different all of the cars look while achieving similar times. Then the picture will be clear.

I would totally consider an AirBar. I'm happy with the performance of my leaf springs. but would love to improve ride quality and have pushbutton tuning at the drags. But in the end I will probably go 3 link because I still feel it is the ultimate performance setup. 3 links offer great ride and adjustability as well as sexy looks. I'll wait until I see Jake's 3 link car in action and then I'll take my wallet out.

[Leadfoot1]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

;)

Lead.

( You know, i'm not looking for the last ounce of performance sooo, i'm running 20"s and soon... Bags! But i want it hard charging/ handling too! So its nice to see the Bags are taking their place in the H-Perf world and gaining respect.)